Frugal Friday: Secret Sweater Layered Cardigan

217 Comments

1. This could be a great summer sweater as well. I normally carry a sweater in my purse, in case I go somewhere that has the A/C blasting, and the packable tote would make it so much easier to carry, as well as protect the sweater from purse spills/smudges.

   1. I have a down gilet that comes in the little package and it’s so nice to throw it in my bag in case the temperature drops / I overestimated how warm it is.

      1. Vest CB. You’re a CA native, it’s a vest not a gilet.

         1. Really? It’s fine for her to use local terms, sheesh.

            You’d be surprised how many things you start adopting to make sense to the locals. In the UK, a vest is a tank top, so if you said, “I’m bringing my down vest” people would literally not understand.

            I understand that she’s on a US-based blog, but your thinking adjusts to the point you just start speaking local. For instance, when I moved back to the U.S., I said “flat” for a very long time before I could remember to call my home an “apartment.” Also same with lift and elevator. It’s just ingrained.

            Lay off. As long as she hasn’t adopted a weird Scottish accent, she’s in the clear and shouldn’t be subject to snarky internet commentary from our favorite [Mean] Anonymous.

            1. I kind of think you overreacted to what I read as a joke!

         2. Wherever she’s living gilet is the word. Same as the word is vest where you live, I assume.

         3. I know, I know! But I’ve embraced local terminology after embarrassing myself talking about pants.

            1. I feel your pain! I still call bangs a fringe and a flashlight a torch :) just teasing

            2. It’s hard not to mimic others’ speech. I do it all the time travelling in Europe, even for just a few weeks! If I lived there I’m sure I’d be talking about lifts, lorries, torches, etc

            3. Anonymous at 10:14, my best story about “divided by a common language” is from my friend Randie, who sailed into a hair salon in Australia once and exclaimed “Hi! I’m Randie and I need some bangs!” Heh.

         4. As long as you don’t pick up a local accent/affectation (looking at you, Madonna), then using local terminology is a-ok :)

            1. I used to think this, but then it occurred to me that I’d never judge a visible minority for adopting an American accent after living here for a while so now I’m more understanding

            2. I’m sure you don’t mean to imply this but not all visible minorities are foreign and not all foreigners are visible minorities. It’s also plays into the stereotype that accents of visible minorities (e.g. Indian, Mexican, Chinese) are bad/hard to understand/uneducated and therefore should be changed while the accents of (many) white people (e.g. English, French, Italian) are desirable/sexy/cultured.

            3. I’m not sure what Liz meant by “visible minority for adopting an American accent”. However, assuming that what she meant was someone originally from a country where English was not their first language, and subsequently moving to the US, would probably come to speak English with a US accent (rather than a French accent/Japanese accent/etc), then that’s different from what I was referring to. I’m talking about people who are born and raised speaking English as their native language, who then move (as an adult) to a different English speaking country, and suddenly pick up that country’s accent. I find that bizarre. Vocabulary? Absolutely! But accent – no.

            4. But I know tons of people who have done this when moving within the US, usually unconsciously. Don’t you have any southern or Texan friends who have accents that are usually virtually unnoticeable, but thick as molasses after talking to their parents?

            5. I’m pretty sure this would naturally happen to me if I moved to another English-speaking country for years. I have a very strong ear for/ability to duplicate accents and started thinking and “reading” in a different accent after about 10 days in Australia and same for England. It didn’t come out in my speech after such a short time, of course. Guess I’d be annoying.

            6. Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant that because groups often place such a high priority on assimilation and adherence to the norms of the dominate culture that it’s pretty strange to judge people who try to assimilate for whatever reason. I was trying to point out that this comment about accents and word choice is often made at white people who try to assimilate to another white culture, and that this ultimatly makes it harder for other people who look different than the majority because ultimatly it reinforces the dominant narrative that you have to look and sound a certain way to be successful. I didn’t mean to suggest that people should look and sound the same, just the opposite – that we should accept people when they decide they want to change for whatever reason they want.

            7. Sorry I disagree, there are some practical reasons for adopting a local accent. As an Australian who had lived in Europe and then found herself in Chicago I was sick of having to write down basic words (Earth brand was a killer for some reason) to get help in shops….I managed to Americanise my accent enough that basic purchases could be completed in a timely manner. I don’t regret it at all.

         5. And I learned a new word! Thanks CB.

2. I have a thin little black cardigan which is a couple of sizes too small and it works great for this – undone it hides under a blazer completely because it’s short and so the fronts don’t dangle.

   1. Same. I would not pay $40 for this – I have a $10 one from Target that does the same thing. And since it’s black, it “hides” better than that white shown under most of my blazers.

      1. I feel the same way, except the sweaters from Target are usually 100% cotton, so I wonder if this would be warmer.

         Could they make this sweater in thermasilk or something similar? Would the blend be warm enough?

      2. Yay! Fruegel Friday’s! I love Fruegel Friday’s, but some of the OP’s think this sweater is to expensive. I am NOT sure Kat would send us something that was NOT Fruegal, and my experience is that stuff from Target does NOT survive to long, even tho it look’s good on the rack. FOOEY on cheep sweater’s.

         One of Ed’s freind’s, Butch, sent Ed back one of the picture’s he took of the girl and Ed. It was not clear from the picture Rosa sent me that it was Ed in the picture, but the girl was VERY pretty. I do NOT understand how a pretty girl needs to do this stuff unless she realy needs to make alot of money — they paid her $1,500 for about 15 minute’s of fun with Ed and one other guy. But this girl could easily find a rich guy and marry him and live in a nice house and even get MORE spendeing money and would NOT have to do this stuff with men which could get her STD’s.

         Rosa told Ed to tell Butch NOT to forward this picture (or any other picture) b/c there is a record of every forwarding. I told Rosa I would erase the photo. Rosa know’s it’s Ed in the picture, even tho winkie’s look alike to me.

         Myrna’s freind is still going to test Ed and his freind’s to insure he is on the “level” and will no longer go for pretty women other then Rosa, but we will see. I need to find my OWN man, and realy do NOT want to have ROSA out there competeing with me for the good one’s, b/c she has a nicer body then I do and is cuter in the face also. Dad say’s she should stick with Ed, b/c the devil you know is better then the devil you don’t know and Ed is a good family man. I think Dad is on Ed’s side b/c Dad gave his own winkie quite a workout before he married mom, and even after ward’s. DOUBEL FOOEY!

      3. I’m really surprised no one has said yet that this was invented by someone who shrunk a cardigan in the laundry and was too cheap to throw it away. That’s how I get my trendy shrunken sweaters that you can’t see.

   2. I have one too that I got for $20 at Talbots on closeout but since I’m always hot I’d never use it for that purpose.

      1. Yeah, I’m looking at this in horror. I struggle to find cold enough days to wear a sweater at all, and am always always hot when I have to wear a suit jacket. Maybe if this little sweater were made of ice!

3. OK, mayday! I just walked into the office to find our department’s administrative assistant with a new piercing. I don’t know what it’s called but it’s a ring through the center of her nose. She had previously had a stud in the side of her nose, which I was OK with — but truthfully, it’s not my favorite since we’re in externally-facing roles in a fairly conservative org. Her contact with the public, however, is less than mine so the stud was OK — but this new piercing is really pushing it.

   I will talk to HR before I decide whether to say anything to her but…have any of you ever faced something like this before? For the record, I am not against piercings (or tattoos — and she has many, visible ones) in general but this is a Know Your Office situation and I would not say it’s appropriate in ours.

   1. The only thing like that I’ve faced was a woman I worked with who had a ring through the center of her nose. It unfortunately reminded me of the kids’ rhyme about the Owl and the Pussycat, with the piggy-wig with the ring on the end of his nose.

   2. A septum piercing? I think they’re hideous, but I wouldn’t say anything unless you think it’s going to result in the company losing money. Then I’d just request that she take it out during the limited contact she has with those conservative clients, to stop Muffy or Carlton from having a heart attack.

      1. I agree they’re pretty hideous, but there’s a few people who can pull it off. The main problem with a septum piercing in a client-facing positions is that from what I understand, the problem with non-ear piercings like septum piercings is that they can close up really quickly, and can’t be removed at all during the 4+ month healing period.

      2. I’m pretty sure you can actually get a specific septum ring that is only a semi-circle and can be turned up into your nose so people can’t see it. If this isn’t the type she has now, it’s an option once the piercing can be switched out.

         1. She probably needs it to heal and then she’ll switch it for the half-circle that can hide. The jewelry you need temporarily for a piercing to heal is never the prettiest option available. I switch mine as soon as I’m allowed.

   3. Hmm, if she feels very strongly about this septum piercing and there’s nothing in the dress code about it, she should be able to wear a clear acrylic (?) thingy in there so that it won’t be visible at work but the piercing won’t close up. I’m not sure if you can do that with a new piercing (because she’d have to keep switching it to her actual jewelry when she gets out of work), but she should be able to ask the piercing place, or Google.

   4. I’d say nothing. If having people in a client facing role not have this type of piercing was important, you should have put that in a written policy. Since it sounds like you didn’t, tough luck it’s not your favorite.

      1. This is why I need to talk to HR to see if there’s anything relevant in our policies, but thank you for pointing that out.

      2. Its not “tough luck.” They don’t have to have a policy prohibiting it in order to make her take it out. She is their employee. If she doesn’t like their rules, she may quit at any time. Its not unlawful discrimination to discriminate based on piercings.

         1. But ANP doesn’t own the company. They’re both employees.

            1. Oh yeah, if she’s just a co-worker or not a direct supervisor with decision-making authority, then she doesn’t get to do or say anything.

   5. Is this your assistant? or just an assistant?

      1. She is the admin for our department — so, supports general clerical activity for all of us (5 people).

   6. Even when I worked at Whole Foods facial piercings other than for religious reasons were prohibited. I think your admin has very poor judgement if she thinks its office appropriate.

   7. This happened in a place I worked and the woman just flipped the nose jewellery up so it was in her nose during work hours and then flipped it out again as she was leaving work. There was a written piercing/jewellery policy though.

   8. Sometimes you can flip up a septum piercing so that it’s inside your nose instead of dangling outside (ie, put in something that’s not a full ring). She could wear something like that inside the office and still have her piercing.

   9. seriously? talking to HR? don’t say anything. it doesn’t affect you. especially since you say she has little contact with the public.

      1. Agreed and frankly, who in the public is actually/really/truly going to care. Not notice, care. As in won’t do business with your company because an admin has a piercing.

      2. I don’t think you can make a sweeping statement either way that it is or is not appropriate. It’s 100% know your office. In my office, even in non-client facing, absolutely no way, no how. HR would almost certainly be involved if it wasn’t taken care of after an initial conversation. But, we CYA via a written policy that dictates that. In my old job, it would be fine – you’d probably get looked at sideways by the more conservative folks in the office, but it wasn’t “unprofessional”.

         1. It is not appropriate for the OP to be talking to HR about it. If HR wants to do something about it they can. I am honestly shocked that this many people are in favor of going to HR if your coworkers piercing bothers you. are you going to go to HR if your coworker wears pink pants too? This is not her admin. She is not this admins boss. This is ABSURD

            1. How would HR even know if no one mentions it? Unless this is a very small company, my guess is that HR doesn’t seen everyone often. I can go months without seeing anyone from HR, and my company is only 200 employees

            2. It IS her admin; it just so happens that she shares her admin with 4 other people. Besides, how do you think HR finds out about things like this so if they “want[] to do something about it they can”? People bring it up to them, they don’t just patrol the halls looking for violations.

         2. Welp, we will have to agree to disagree.

      3. By “little contact with the public” I mean “2-3 times per week” where everyone else in our department has daily contact. Totally inappropriate for our client group.

         1. Since she reports to 5 people – who hires and fires her position? Is that you?

            1. Yes, I oversee our entire department and am therefore responsible for hiring/firing. Thanks for the feedback everyone. Ultimately there is no policy on this (which I will look into) but it definitely isn’t client appropriate so we’ll have to figure something out for those situations.

   10. If there’s nothing written stating she couldn’t do it, and she was allowed to have visible tattoos and another nose piercing, I can see why she’d think it was OK. I would check with HR as you said.

       The admin at my last company had a chin piercing (I think? like, under her lower lip) and she just took it out during the day. You could still see it, but only if you were looking. We had a very strict dress code, though – I think it would have been fine most places, even if she left it in. That said, I am not really bothered by piercings.

       1. I agree that if she was hired with visible tattoos and a nose piercing (or acquired them with no comment while working for your company), I can understand why she would think an additional facial piercing would be appropriate for her office.

4. I’ve tried to put myself on a shopping ban for 3 months and I’m surprised at how difficult it’s been. It’s only been one month, 6 days so far. I’m amazed at how I just usually buy clothes without putting much thought into it and how much I mindlessly browse online sales.

   1. That’s already great! think of how much you saved by abstaining 5 weeks, versus how much less would be in your account any other month.
      I didn’t buy a single item in January and I just noticed that nothing horrible happened. I am still able to put together some outfits and I feel I had more income to indulge in outings.

   2. I’ve been putting things in the shopping cart online and then closing the page immediately.

      1. As a poor college student, I used to put entire closets full of outfits in my J.Crew shopping cart and close the page. Now they use cookies to keep the shopping cart between visits, so it’s less effective.

   3. I’ve been doing the same for January (I splurged on a really expensive watch with six months free financing and told myself nothing new until it’s paid off without touching any existing money at the time–so it should be another two months.) I didn’t realize just how much I shop. It’s been kind of liberating not having to fit in time to return things or dealing with the clutter of boxes. It’s actually feeling a little easier to pass things up, too.

   4. I’ve been making a list of things I need so that I purposely buy those things but not other things.

      And if any anons want to comment that I don’t need things I’ll just turn my TSwift up.

      1. I am doing this too. I have a list, and am not buying anything that is not on it. And even if it’s on the list I have to love the piece.

5. Thank you for all the great comments the other day about leaving law to return to engineering. You all gave me a lot to think about, so I’m even more hesitant. I managed to get some work from a new partner in a completely different practice area, which was a much better experience than what I typically have in my current group. But I doubt I can manage to completely move to that practice group for political reasons and I don’t see making it work in my current group. I did some work for the partner in my group and he seemed happy, but the senior associate still hates me and thinks I can’t do anything right. He’s not giving any opportunities to change his mind, so I don’t see any way to make this work.

   I must say, I find it very interesting that you all have the basic assumption that I’m intelligent and capable. I’ve noticed most people seem to have that basic assumption about themselves, but I can’t seem to instill that belief in myself. I’m mystified about why others have it but I don’t. I’ve tried faking it until I make it for nearly four years now. I haven’t made it. At some point, don’t you have to accept that perhaps you’re not intelligent and capable? The vast majority aren’t capable of being lawyers. I think I’ve reached the point of being forced to accept I’m not.

   1. Again, get therapy. You sound depressed and anxious in most of your posts. You’ve made it through an engineering school, engineering job, law school, and four years of work. You’re right, it isn’t normal to be so down on yourself. But meds and therapy are what you try to fix that not just giving up on yourself.

      1. I would add to therapy that a good career coach might help. Engineering and law are NO JOKE and you are now trained in both. There were a lot of suggestions in the earlier thread about possible career options, but it sounds like finding a job where you can utilize both and succeed could make a huge difference for you. We are rooting for you!

      2. But if this were medical, wouldn’t it be for all areas of my life? I’m quite happy at home. I’m a good mom and wife, when I’m not working 12+ hours a day.

         1. You aren’t actually though, if you listen to yourself. That’s what a therapist can help with. You’re often really stressed and hopeless. And see how you’re defining yourself- it’s not that you’re happy at home, it’s that you’re doing well enough by others. Please don’t decide this on your own. Go and talk to a professional. Maybe you’re right, it’s the job and you just need a different one. But I think you owe it to yourself to check.

         2. Meds might not be the answer, then, but therapy can be very helpful for working on one area of your life, especially if it involves distorted perceptions of yourself (like, you thinking you are not intelligent!).

         3. Not necessarily. If nothing else, therapy could help you bolster your self esteem as it relates to you, Toffee the professional.

         4. But it could be just that this is the first thing to drop, and you could start to feel less happy at home as well later – so probably better to talk to someone about it first. Also, if your experiences as an engineer were before you were a mom, that could also cloud your judgement on how happy you were as an engineer vs how happy you are as a lawyer – my opinion on my happiness at work changed dramatically once I became a mom, and once work wasn’t my number one priority.

            I missed the original discussion but I just went back to read it. Have you thought about some type of compliance work or auditing for an engineering firm or manufacturing? What about quality engineering and complying to TS-16949, ISO-14001 or QS-9000? That is basically applying rules/policies (like laws) to engineering. Or I could also see someone with an engineering background and law background being very good at project management. I agree with others that you shouldn’t think of yourself as “not smart enough to be a lawyer” but rather that thinking like a lawyer isn’t one of your strengths, or not something you want to do all day, every day. And even if you haven’t been a practicing engineer for a while, I think the law experience will be something that could be very valuable to a smaller engineering/manufacturing location where the employees often have to wear multiple hats and may not have a separate law or compliance department – you would at least be able to help with making the decision of “oh, that should be ok” vs “uh-oh, this is something we really do need an experienced lawyer for”

            1. And as someone who studied as an engineer but is now doing something pretty far from it – I miss actually being able to hold something in my hands or point to something on a shelf and say “I made that!” That was a pretty big part of what thrilled me as an engineer and scientist, and I really miss it sometimes.
               Can you make a list of things like this that you miss about being an engineer, as well as things you would miss if you were no longer a lawyer? And things you do NOT miss about being an engineer and things you wouldn’t miss about being a lawyer? As suggested to others – you may want to look at skills based job searches rather than job title based – you might be surprised at some of the weird job titles out there that you are actually highly qualified for besides “rocket scientist” or “patent lawyer”

            2. The lists suggestion is av excellent idea! I’ve found a couple of jobs that aren’t just engineering that sound very interesting. They’re more strategic than just development. But most jobs have requirements for skills I don’t have. So far, I’ve only applied to in house patent jobs, but no one is interested because I’ve only been at this firm 10 months and I have drafted some magical number of patent applications (most want 15-25. I’ve done 12).

         5. I honestly don’t think good work/happy thoughts can happen if you’re constantly working 12+ hours a day. I know everybody in biglaw thinks it’s normal, but I also think that everybody realizes that the work could be better if individuals weren’t working 12+ hours a day.

            1. It seems to happen for a lot of people. But I just can’t do it. I stayed up until 10:30 finishing a motion Wednesday and I still feel drained. Not to mention it had far more errors than it should have and it wasn’t nearly as detailed as I would prefer.

            2. Yeah, there are a few people who thrive on working 12 hours a day, but not many and you should not (a) try to be one if you’re not; or (b) think you should be one if you’re not. It’s okay to not want to spend crazy amounts of time on work; and it’s normal to be tired after late nights.

   2. oh my god dude. Get therapy. Its fine if you want to switch jobs but you are wrong- the vast majority of people who make it through law school are capable of being lawyers. That’s why there are so many checkpoints along the way- the lsats, getting through law school, passing the bar. you made it through all of those plus working. If you want to switch jobs than go for it, but its not because you arent smart enough to hack it.

   3. oh my god dude. Get therapy. Its fine if you want to switch jobs but you are wrong- the vast majority of people who make it through law school are capable of being lawyers. That’s why there are so many checkpoints along the way- the lsats, getting through law school, passing the bar. you made it through all of those plus working. If you want to switch jobs than go for it, but its not because you arent smart enough to hack it.

   4. Wow – I would love to be an engineer and a lawyer, I work with both and nobody not intelligent and hard-working can get through those ranks. You’re pretty great, and I know you wouldn’t talk to a friend the way you’re talking to yourself.

   5. Maybe it would be better to accept that you don’t have an accurate perception of your own abilities?
      I am not saying everyone is brilliant or cut out for legal work and some people who are very able at one hard thing aren’t great at other hard things. I think legal analysis comes fairly easily to me but I’d be sh*t at engineering or science or a whole host of other disciplines I consider more challenging. But that doesn’t mean I’m not intelligent or that someone who can’t do what I do isn’t capable.

      I’ve read your other posts without commenting, but it really does sound like you have some issues with low self esteem and it may help to talk to someone about that (I am not normally one to say “get therapy” for every little thing like some others, but in this instance…)

      As to your actual problem, maybe law isn’t for you, or maybe you should find another firm where you can focus on another area. Even in your current firm – you say that you can’t go to another practice area because of politics, but if you’re really going to leave law completely who cares about the politics? Why not try to transition? Something made you want to leave engineering to go to law school. I’d see if there is a better job for you before entirely abandoning this field altogether.

      1. ALL OF THIS.

      2. Yes, this. Please please please, Toffee, consider getting therapy.

      3. +1 I’ve had a low opinion of my skills forever. In school I always felt like the stupidest kid in the smart classes. Today, I struggle with feeling a mismatch between my perception of myself and the actual quality of work I produce. I don’t feel that way at home because I get great feed reliable feedback from my Husband about my cooking. When I’ve worked in environments with mentors I trust I’ve been able to over come the feeling but in my current job I don’t get much feed back from superiors so I occasionally find myself in a panic late at night worrying that I’ve done everything wrong and will be fired tomorrow. I just keep reminding myself that someone probably would have talked to me before firing me, and I at my last job people though I did a good job. I’d recommend trying to find someone who trust who can give you honest feed back about the work you’re doing and/or looking for a counselor who works with lawyers. That helped me a lot during law school.

   6. I know a handful of people who were engineers before switching to law, and I’ve said before I don’t think the two fields are so incompatible (that said, I myself probably would not be a good engineer).

      I do think your current situation sounds like it’s unsustainable for you, but I don’t think that means that you’re necessarily not cut out to be a lawyer. I’d push back on the idea that changing practice groups is out of the question. Sometimes the politics are not what you think they are.

      1. Should I just ask the new partner in the other group? I don’t know him well, but an associate in that group does know me and was instrumental in getting me this work.

         1. When you turn in the project or otherwise meet with the partner, experess interest and his work and ask that he keep in you mind for future projects. If the work is coming from a senior associate, same. I don;t think you can ask off the top of the bat to switch pratice groups after 1 assignment, but can try to transition to it after a few projects.

   7. Toffee, aren’t you a patent attorney in big law? you didn’t get there by chance. you got there because you are smart and worked hard and obviously extremely capable. we all see that here. but no amount of outside people telling you that is going to change your own opinion of yourself. you have to look within and maybe therapy is a good place to start.

      in the words of the almighty T-swift, haters gonna hate. but forget them! you do you. you’ve had some bad experiences with bosses who don’t have good people skills. if in the beginning of your career you had some great mentors you might be in a completely different position now. don’t give up on your dream because you’ve run into to some unhappy people who want to take it out on you.

      1. You could’ve been getting down to this. sick. beat.

         1. <3

         2. lol, thanks for the laugh. :)

   8. Toffee — I have been thinking about you a lot this week. May I suggest that you reframe how you are thinking about this job? You have empirical evidence from some universities that you are intelligent enough to pass the coursework for two professional careers, engineering and law. So let the whole “not intelligent enough” thing go.

      It’s OK to say: “This job is not for me. I have done it for a while now, and I am not having success and I am not enjoying it, so I am going to make a change.” Just because you are not succeeding in these two firms does not mean you would not succeed at any firm, but I hear you when you say you don’t want to keep on that path. But it won’t help you to make this about inherent traits, as opposed to current job requirements. And, for the record, I too think you are just in a bad job.

      1. This! I feel like your twin. I left science for patent law too and I’ve been miserable ever since. It isn’t because I’m not smart enough, it is that the personality type required for this job isn’t mine. I’m trying to get out also. Unfortunately I’m finding that employers don’t think you’re qualified for anything but patent prosecution so switching fields of law has been impossible.

      2. Thank you. I really appreciate this perspective.

   9. I disagree with your statement that the vast majority aren’t capable of being lawyers. Big law lawyers, maybe. But have you sat in a local court? Many lawyers can’t string together a coherent sentence and are highly disorganized. Law may not be for you, but I don’t agree that all lawyers are geniuses (myself included!)

      1. OMG, please do sit in a local court for an afternoon. That can be highly horrifying.

         1. I saw the Paper Chase as a child and wondered about what would happen once I entered law school.

            I worked in a local courthouse for a summer and knew that I had a fighting chance.

            Signed,
            BigLaw Partner (and child of engineer)

         2. This is also excellent motivation for those who are worried about failing the bar exam. Just remind yourself that all these people passed the bar…

            1. I use this to motivate my kids that yes, they can pass their driving test.

         3. But what if I’m on level with them? I clerked and saw quite a few attorneys like that. I’m treated the same way they were.

            1. You’re obviously not on par with the bad lawyers (and there are some good and even great ones, we’re talking about the bad ones) and the fact that you say you’re treated that way and basically believing it reminds me of an abuse victim. “My spouse knows I’m too (stupid/weak/pathetic) to leave them.

               Hate to echo so many others, but seriously try to get therapy.

               I’m an attorney, and I had an ok job that I liked but had no advancement. I got an opportunity in another area of law that had some advancement and great salary and benefits. It was the worst decision I ever made. I hated the area of law, detested both my clients and the opposition, and was surrounded by co-workers who just wanted to ride the salary and benefits to retirement.

               I stuck it out for a year and then quit without another job lined up. I did some hourly work for a few small firms before landing my current wonderful can’t-wait-to-go-to-work job.

               Looking back on that year is like a bad dream. I was so depressed and anxious about my performance, but I didn’t actually have enough work to do, I was online a lot and going right to deadline with the little work that I had. I constantly felt like I was not meeting expectations, but I had no idea what the expectations were. My boss seemed to hate me, she actually snuck out the back door once, knowing that I was waiting to check in with her about a project. Another time she told me to wait for her in the office, I waited till 8pm, and she never came in. When I finally got my new job I had a bunch of behaviors that even I could recognize as anxiety from the bad experience of the previous job.

               Anyway, that huge long story is to say that sometimes it really is the job. But I think therapy can help. I was lucky that I had my husband’s support and some hourly work to do when I quit without another job, but I was so beaten I wasn’t even applying to new jobs while I was at that job. I looked at my resume once and thought, who am I kidding, I’m just not cut out to be a laywer. I thought about running away, faking my own death (student loans) selling my eggs, moving to Argentina or something, anything to get away from this horrible life!

               But like you, I had a family and that allowed me to hold on. But it also tricked me into thinking it was my work abilities that was the problem. “I’m happy at home, I just suck at lawyering.”

   10. +1 that you cannot be anything other than intelligent and capable with your record of completing degrees and working in both engineering and law!
       also +1 w/ the suggestions to discuss your self-image with a therapist and possibly also a career counselor.

       Please don’t think that there’s something wrong with your essential being for feeling insecure about your abilities. Rather, your perception seems to diverge from the facts of your accomplishments to the point that it would be helpful to get corroboration, or perception adjustment, from someone else.

       Totally out-of-the-box suggestion here: If after further consideration (with assistance from the therapist and career counselor) you conclude that leaving law is your best option, I recommend that you follow previous suggestions here to find a new profession that draws on all of your background. I would think that people with legal and engineering educations would be very helpful for engineering firms, policy makers, regulators, and think tanks. Our society faces many technical questions. You seem like you would bring intelligence and skill to the table.

       You might also want to take your concerns to the Friday workplace-related open thread discussions at askamanager (dot) org. Good luck!

       1. Thank you for the suggestions. It’s a lot to consider. I really appreciate everyone here offering their thoughts.

          1. Toffee, I’ve followed this thread and the previous one with interest. When I was interested in making a transition after being fed up with an engineering job that didn’t seem to play to any of my strengths, my husband encouraged me to give it one more try, at one more company, before throwing in the towel. The new company is radically different in terms of culture, politics, and workflow, and the joy I’ve found in being a good engineer has returned in full measure. I second both statements that have been reflected in this thread: 1) you are smarter than average to have succeeded at getting both degrees/qualifications, as engineering and law are each no joke, and 2) therapy might help you better frame what’s happening in your career and your life. There is absolutely no stigma but rather a lot of added value in seeking a 3rd party, neutral opinion from a mental health professional before taking a big step like switching careers.

   11. Toffee – I don’t read the ‘Rette comments consistently, so I haven’t been following your discussion this week – please forgive me if this was already suggested: Before you give up on law, try switching firms. I started out at a small firm, working under an unreasonable partner. But I didn’t understand that he was unreasonable because it was my first job out of law school and didn’t have much exposure to other firm/partners, and because all of my co-workers put up with him, I thought – well, this is how it is. I was miserable, thought I was an idiot and couldn’t cut it as a lawyer, and started looking seriously at different career paths. The feeling of inadequacy was overwhelming. I randomly got a call from a headhunter for another, large firm, and went on the interview because the job would double my salary, but assumed there was no way I would get it. I got it and I’m doing well here six years later. I really like my job and I’m glad that I didn’t veer into another career. All this is to say, it may not be you and it may not be the profession, it may be the firm. In fact, it may just be that senior associate. Before you change your whole life, take some time to try a different firm.

       Also, engineering backgrounds can be hugely beneficial in areas of law other than IP – products liability, environmental, and construction all come to mind.

       1. I second this. Didn’t realize how horrible my first place was until I left.

       2. +1,000,000. Firms have really different cultures and some tolerate jerky behavior way more than others.

   12. what flavor engineering? Civil? Have you thought about land use?

       It’s also totally ok to not have found your convocation yet. When I was laid off from engineering in 2007, I applied to nursing schools. I wound up with my current job (land use planning) instead. This is probably what I want to do with the rest of my life, but nursing is still very appealing to me as well. We just can’t afford the loss of my salary for me to attend nursing school.

       1. My background is in software. My biggest complaint was the industry, which is notoriously slow and out dated. There’s so many jobs out there now in internet, mobile, and other modern technologies that weren’t there when I left engineering.

   13. Thanks for all the positive thoughts and opinions. I’ll think about therapy, especially if I can find a therapist with lots of experience with people like me. To be honest, I had a bad experience with a therapist and it soured me on the whole idea. I know it’s wrong to let one bad therapist do this, but she was particularly bad. I scheduled the appointment to discuss my parents’ divorce after 35 years of marriage, and left with an antidepressant prescription and her opinion that DH would soon start physically abusing me because he didn’t like my dog. Ten years later, here I am with the same DH, the same dog, and no physical abuse.

       1. Oh my goodness! That must have been an awful experience! But really, it’s worth another try. It may take a few tries to find somebody who is a good fit, but good therapy can be really life-changing. I know because my therapy has helped me change my life profoundly.

       2. I have been to oh, 10 different therapists over the years? Some are good, some are bad, some are okay. You should really keep trying until you find one that works for you. There is no chance you don’t have one friend with a good therapist who can make a recommendation for you as a starting point (all of my close friends now go to the same therapist, as we all got a recommendation from one woman).

          To give you some background, I did two years of MidLaw, HATED it although I worked for wonderful people. I took a gov’t job where the schedule was obviously much better. I worked for the worst people ever. My confidence took a nose dive because they were always second guessing me and telling me I was doing everything wrong. I got put on 3 months PROBATION for spelling something wrong in an internal email. I was told I was lucky the GC was letting me keep my job (because of said spelling error). They called everyone stupid behind their backs and would throw you under a bus in the blink of an eye. There was a 25 yr veteran attorney who started 2 months before me who ended up throwing up before work every day because they were so terrible to him. We both ended up in therapy, as did the paralegal! None of us were unintelligent, or bad at our jobs, or not cut out for law, we just worked in a TERRIBLE place. Therapy helped immensely and I am back to knowing I rock the casbah.

   14. I haven’t read through the entire thread yet, but I’m glad to hear that you are trying to get work from another practice group. Yes, there will be pushback from the people in your practice area and political resistance – that’s why I had to switch firms each time I switched practice areas. In interviews, people totally understood that I’ve been doing X, and a little of Y, but I really want to switch to do more Y work, and they gave me a chance, the way other firms will give you a chance. Having an engineering background does not pigeon-hole you into doing patent work – you know some of the best litigators and corporate lawyers I know have a science background. I’m sure other firms will find your experience impressive and will give you a chance, and you can start with a clean slate. The reason you feel you haven’t “made it” yet is you are basically a square peg trying to fit into a round hole and it’s just not the right fit for you. Good luck!!!

       1. I just want to add that I also thought I needed therapy to deal with my anxiety and depression, but it really was just the soul-sucking job. Since I switched firms and practice groups, I haven’t had any crying episodes. Not taking anything away from anyone here who is recommending therapy, but I’m trying to tell you that leaving a bad work situation behind can work wonders for your happiness and self-esteem. You just don’t know it yet because you’re on the other side.

   15. Toffee, I am not consistent here, so I have not seen your prior postings. However, your post sounds very intelligent, well-spoken, and well-thought out. You are probably under-estimating your abilities and I know from my own experience that dealing with someone who belittles you or underestimates you himself will lead to feelings of low self-worth.

       If you hate practicing law and prefer engineering, then go for it, but don’t let yourself be forced out by feelings of inadequacy which are not well-based. I know many people who eventually decide that the constant conflict, stress, long hours, etc. are not for them, and I admire people who have the heart and nerve to go on to another field. But just because some senior associate does not value your skills does not mean that you would not make a great lawyer.

6. I’m so glad that you were talking sweaters today. I have been on the hunt for cardigan to wear with my shift dresses in the summer (when it’s too warm to wear a jacket). I always struggle to find a simple cardigan that is basic and relatively slim fitting. Everything I find is either too boxy and/or too trendy (therefore not work appropriate). So I’ll be interested to see how this does. If anyone else has suggestions for a great basic cardigan that doesn’t break the bank I would love recommendations.

   1. Uniqlo’s basic cardigans are fantastic. I have one from 2010 that’s still holding its shape and colour. It’s their cotton/cashmere blend which is gorgeous to the touch

   2. I find lots of basic, 3/4 length sweaters at TJ Maxx/Marshalls that I wear throughout the summer. J Crew Jackie is another good option.

   3. Boden – they don’t pill or lose their shape (ahem, Jcrew and Old Navy…), and the “cropped” ones look really nice with dresses.

      1. I had to discard an Old Navy cardigan after 2 wearings because of excessive pilling, almost matting of the fibers. I didn’t expect much, but I expected more than 2 wearings.

   4. I like the Halogen 3/4 Sleeve ones from Nordstrom.

      1. I just got 2 of these and so far they seem awesome. And it comes in lots of colors.

   5. Land’s End makes a “dress” cardigan. I think it’s around $50. There is also a cashmere version.

      1. +1 I was going to recommend LE cardigans myself. Make sure you read the sizing because they are very generous so you will probably need to size down but I love LE cardigans.

7. Question for those of you with experience – what would you wear to a “black tie optional” wedding reception? Does that mean a long dress and a certain color/shape?

   Also, if the reception is immediately after the ceremony, do you wear the dress to both the ceremony and reception? Or, if the reception is a few hours after the ceremony, do you wear something else to the ceremony and go back to your home/hotel and change into your black tie clothing?

   On top of all of that, if it is very very cold, do you wear a “black tie” dress with longer sleeves, or is a sleeveless dress still appropriate?

   Thanks for your help!

   1. I would wear a c*cktail dress with some sparkle/embellishment. If ceremony is in a religious setting, I probably put a wrap on over the dress for that. I’ve never changed even when ceremony is earlier, but I have worn something over the dress like an embellished cardigan and then taken that off for reception.
      If it’s cold, I’d say sleeveless is okay but you want to make sure you’re seasonally appropriate – so no obviously spring/summer colors/fabrics.

      1. +1 to all of this, though feel free to wear a long dress if you want to. There’s usually a mix of both and then you don’t have to deal with the hose or not issue.

   2. Generally, I’d wear a pretty cocktail dress for black tie optional, long dress for black tie. If the reception is right after the ceremony, no don’t change. I just bring a wrap or something for church. If there’s a gap of a few hours you’ll likely see both- I prefer to wear a day dress to the church and change but if that’s not convenient no need to. Typically formal gowns are more frequently strapless, sleeveless, or with short sleeves. Fine to wear long sleeves if you want but a wrap is usually the solution for feeling cold.

   3. I would wear a long dress because I don’t often get an opportunity to go formal. IME Black tie optional means the bride/couple wanted a black tie wedding and someone else (FOB, FIL, etc.) said no, we’re not making Uncle Milty rent a tux. It’s a compromise meaning you can wear cocktail or black tie.

      1. Ha, the only “black tie optional” wedding I’ve ever been to was “optional” for this exact reason. The bride and groom let their friends know that black tie was not really optional. So, I’d probably wear a simple long dress if I had one in my closet or wanted an excuse to buy one, but would avoid long dresses with a lot of embellishment. Or, alternatively, I’d wear a cocktail dress and maybe dress it up more with fancy shoes or jewelry.

8. The post about piercings above has me wondering whether any facial piercings are generally okay. Obviously this depends on one’s office, but assuming it’s not super conservative or formal, what kind of piercings do people think are most likely all right? I had sort of assumed that a nose stud in most offices isn’t a problem, but it seems like they might be based on the discussion above. What do you all think?

   1. One small nose stud I find acceptable. Anything else, no.

      1. Would you be inclined to question that person’s judgment or anything like that all, or do you mean acceptable like you wouldn’t really give it a second thought? Basically, acceptable like tolerable but pushing a limit or acceptable like no problem?

         1. Acceptable like I’d be fine with it and probably not give it a second thought.

         2. This really depends on where you live. I will admit to being an old fogey here, but ANY facial piercings would be viewed in my firm as totally unacceptable and evidencing zero judgment. I’m in the deep south. And most of the guys wear blue jeans to the office. Facial piercings simply have not made it to the socially/minimally professional point yet.

            In many, many places, facial piercings may be fine, but in many places, not.

   2. It really just depends on your office and role. Example, in my office- someone working in X area could probably be very pierced and tattooed (I’m thinking IT), but someone in business development, not so much.

      As a younger lawyer, I don’t think I’d do it, mostly because I look young and already have a hard time with executives taking me seriously, so it would only be detrimental. One of them jokingly called me a whippersnapper recently, I can’t imagine what they’d think if I also pierced my nose (something I’ve always wanted to do).

      1. Does this judgment change if the person in question is south asian, but not religious (and therefore can’t say that it’s related to religious freedom or something)

         1. If you’re south Asian no one blinks at nose rings, it’s totally seen as cultural heritage.

            I am not south Asian, even though I eat enough of the food!

            1. Unless you live in an area where there are very few South Asian. Where I grew up is not all just white people, its moderately diverse – but there isn’t much of a population of South Asians, so many people here wouldn’t KNOW it is a cultural thing and give her a pass because she’s South Asian – unfortunately, it would add to the “otherness” factor. Not saying this is ok, but it is a reality to face if there is a chance you would be one of very few South Asians the employees have ever encountered.

         2. Yes, I’d say some things are accepted for different ethnicities – nose rings, tons of thing gold bracelets, Henna tattoos, come to mind for South Asians, that would just seem very wild for a Caucasian person to pull off, but are business-appropriate. I wouldn’t ask about exact religious-ness, I’d just assume it was A Cultural Thing.

            However, there’s a difference between a small nosering and, like, the nose chain that I see for some South Asian weddings connecting the nose to the ear. The 2nd one just wouldn’t be office-appropriate, but the 1st one would be.

         3. I think the answer to this is yes and no. On the one hand, I think some people will assume it’s cultural/religious and give you a pass. On the other hand, people may assume you are very conservative / not very assimilated and kind of unconsciously ding you for it. I am South Asian and have a nose stud for absolutely no cultural / religious reason (in fact my parents were horrified when I pierced my nose as a 16-year-old). Interestingly enough, when I was in Biglaw, it seemed to be a total non-issue, but I once had a job interview at a small firm where, after the fact, one of my interviewers asked my recruiter “what the deal was” with my nose ring. Since then, I always take it out for job interviews (and, when I think of it, for court, although I think it’s small enough that it’s not noticeable from the bench).

   3. I personally wouldn’t wear any type of piercing outside of 1-2 ear piercings (regular size!) in an office setting. I think nose studs are always ok for South Asian women (for cultural reasons), but since I’m not I tend to err on the side of conservatism for work.

   4. Depends on how conservative your office is. If your office dress code is formal every day, I’d say probably not, unless you specifically asked and got the ok.

      Can anyone in more formal offices comment on whether you should interview with a small piercing like that, assuming you’re planning on wearing it to work?

   5. Totally a problem in my uber professional finance office.

   6. I have a tragus piercing that has a tiny diamond stud in it. I don’t actually consider this a facial piercing but I know a lot of dress codes do. I think I took it out for OCI and then shortly thereafter realized that I didn’t really want to work anywhere that was going to have an issue with a non-noticeable piercing (my best friend didn’t even realize I had it until 3 years into our friendship when I mentioned it in a conversation). I have worked at a small firm, a large firm, and now an in-house position and I never take it out. I don’t consider anything on the actual face (eyebrow, nose, lip, etc.) professional, however. Basically, my cut off is if it is distracting when I’m talking to you (and to me, even nose studs are because that is all I’m going to be looking at once I notice it), it doesn’t belong in a professional setting.

9. What are your favorite ways to de-stress? I’ve been having trouble letting go recently, and I really need to

   1. Exercise, cooking, a bath, a BBC2 marathon, LGPs, a long walk with the dog and DH.

   2. Cristalino Cava ($8)
      Lucien Albrecht Cremant d’Alsace Rose ($19)
      Raats Original Chenin Blanc ($10)
      2006 Feudo Arancio Nero d’Avola ($8)
      Vaza 2007 Crianza from Rioja ($16)
      2009 Ponzi Tavolo Pinot Noir ($20)

      1. A woman after my own heart! My list looks similar, but as I’m trying not to drink during the week, I’ll also add that lifting weights while listening to great music is my new favorite way to de-stress.

      2. Baconpancakes for the win this morning.

      3. This! Followed by a nap.

      4. This is essentially what my de-stressing list looks like. I think we should be friends.

      5. I like you.

      6. Wine friends are the best friends.

      7. You win this thread. :)

   3. Knitting and audiobooks! A hot chocolate, or a steamed milk with flavoured syrup if I’m out and near a Sbux.

      And I’m partial to an Italian red wine (Primitivo is the best!) too.

      1. LOVE primitivo! There’s a local winery here that makes one that is so delicious. Tastes very bold & peppery. Good with red meat.

         1. Also with dark chocolate!

   4. I’ve been going running after bad/stressful days. I have the Zombies, Run! app on my phone, and it’s a nice little way to break up the monotony of a run. You listen to your own music in between the plot snippets (my zombies playlist is a combination of hard rock and peppy dance tunes :P) and it’s really, REALLY good at keeping you running – the sound of zombies right behind you is a powerful motivator!

      On the complete opposite end of the spectrum, I’m also very fond of cheesy fighting video games. If I can’t beat up the people who are making me irritated, at least I can beat up some pixels. :P

      1. The existence of this app motivates me to try running again.

         1. Agreed.

            1. Update: there’s a 5k training version that gets you into running slowly. Purchased.

            2. It is crazy fun. Totally worth the three or four bucks.

      2. Ok, fun fact – a friend of mine from high school created that app! That makes me so happy!

         1. Your friend is a dang genius. Signed, a happy customer (who’s already lost almost 25 pounds with the assistance of said app!)

   5. Play hooky for an afternoon, go to a movie that I don’t care if anyone else likes, eat popcorn without sharing.

   6. Exercise, acupuncture, cooking a really involved meal while listening to an audiobook, going for a long slow run while listening to podcasts, massage

   7. Singing along very loudly and very badly to my favorite angry music.

      1. +1

   8. I watch youtube videos and home tours of minimalist apartments.
      For some reasons these pictures of clutter-free aesthetically pleasing spaces appeal to my ADD brain and help me wind down

   9. Ballet class. It is so incredibly difficult to make sure that all of my various body parts are in the right place at the right time making the correct shape that it is literally impossible to fit thoughts of work, kid issues, housework, and other stressful topics into my brain for those 1.5 hours.

      1. Oh gosh yes. I like to do a set of barre exercises by myself at home when things get a bit much (I took ballet for so long that I know what to concentrate on and what to do when and so on)

      2. Same for me re; dressage riding. Way too much to focus on while riding (and too much fun!) to be worried about whether that email was phrased perfectly.

10. I could use some advice from anyone who’s had a deviated septum surgery and/or nose job. I just saw my ENT, who informed me that my constant stuffiness is due to a deviated septum, so she recommends surgery for that. The thing is that I also have also kind of disliked my nose – nothing major, I just wish it wasn’t so round. So I’m wondering whether I should do a combination deviated septum/cosmetic procedure. I would really appreciate any thoughts from anyone who’s been there. Thanks in advance!

    1. I had surgery to fix a deviated septum/constant stuffiness, and it worked great. Recovery was unpleasant–vomiting and nausea for several days, presumably because of the general anesthetic. But afterward it was awesome to just be able to breathe through my nose again.

    2. I have not, but I worked on a malpractice case where the patient was having routine surgery for a deviated septum and ended up dying because some bone got broken that shouldn’t have (I don’t recall the exact details of what happened that led to death). Obviously, this is rare and the extreme example, but needless to say, working in malpractice cases pretty much put me off ever having any sort of elective surgery unless there is something having a serious impact on quality of life.

       1. +1 I’m actually in the process of having multiple minor procedures done for medical reasons that are normally done for cosmetic reasons. Each time I can’t help but think “OMG why do people do this if they don’t have to??”

       2. Yep — I had an surgery that was touted as having a 90% effective rate in improving hearing — mine was steadily declining. Did lots of research on the procedure. I am the less than 1% that had nerve damage and I had a highly rated surgeon. No more surgeries for me unless it’s life threatening.

    3. Figure out what your insurance will pay for each option, and then go for it.

    4. I had surgery on my septum and sinuses and it’s been life changing. I’d ask about the recovery time for just the deviated septum and then both procedures; I was out for a solid 2 weeks. Also, check with your insurance about payment because including an “elective” procedure could complicate what you pay. If money isn’t a problem, I’d just do both and get it done with, assuming your surgeon is okay with both.

    5. A friend of mine did the deviated septum surgery (not a nose job) and I’d just echo what a couple others have said, that it has a looong recovery. Right after the surgery, he couldn’t breathe through his nose (obviously), but that lasted for weeks — really painful congestion and swelling. He was miserable for quite a while. He’s fine now, and it did improve his breathing, but he’s told me he’s not sure he’d do it again knowing how awful the recovery was. I guess it was that bad.

11. A very important partner at my firm assigned me some research. He came back with the memo, compared it with the recent train wreck in NY, and was basically telling me that the whole assumption I was making (publication of a “trade secret” in a patent application’s effect on information’s status as a trade secret), which was the starting point of the whole memo was wrong. He man-splained for like an hour how this was completely wrong, and that he would “stand on his head right here” if that was the law. I almost cried and was thinking wow, I totally missed this, but I was SURE that that is just a really fundamental understanding in this area of law.

    I am really really slammed right now, but I MAKE time for a p!ssing match. (recognized personality flaw).

    I printed cases from most every circuit showing that this WAS the law, and very well-established and put it on his desk. He was reading and was like, “OK, so we’re both right.” NO, dude, I AM RIGHT! I’m accepting the lighthearted apology graciously (outwardly), but still kind of taken aback by how ready he was to be so aggressive about telling me how wrong and dumb I was. Don’t f**k with me.

    sorry for the rant.

    1. I’m sorry for your experience but this really makes a perfect example for my comment above to Toffee about about the personalities in law versus science. In law partners can feed their egos about being right even when they’re not by yelling at others and pretending. but in science if you’re really wrong things explode, bridges fall down, etc. it’s a whole mindset I just can’t get on board with.

    2. Props to you for standing your ground and believing in yourself! If a partner did that to me, I would immediately thing “OH NO, I AM WRONG!!!”

    3. I am sorry that happened to you. Sounds like he was way harsh.

       I know you didn’t ask for advice, and you recognized your personality flaw, but if you want to last long in any sort of setting where partners are above you, don’t get into pi$$ing matches with them (even if they pick the fight). Just _nicely_ and non-aggressively say, “Well, my research shows this ____.” Sometimes partners are sad, sad people, but if you value your job, don’t get aggressive with them. I have rarely seen it end well.

       Also, when you’re at work and a very important partner talks down to you, it’s rarely mansplaining. It’s usually just a partner pretending he’s so much more experienced/knowledgeable than you. I advise you not to bring gender into it–female partners are just as likely to be difficult, and, frankly, in many firm settings, your bosses will be men. The sooner you take criticism (even badly delivered, illogical criticism) in stride in a law firm setting, the better off you’ll be.

       1. Kind of kidding about the p!ssing match. It’s typically reserved for my immediate family. ;) Ironically, my reviews typically say that I’m not aggressive enough. Husband is mystified.

          Just a stack of case law and a summary of various court holdings, no intense verbal sparring or outward aggression!

          Agree that female partners can be just as bad.

          1. I had a similar experience during trial with a judge. He was so so so wrong on the law and saying he wasn’t going to bother reading the cases I cited. Luckily, we were several days away from the jury charge or directed verdict where it would matter. To my complete and utter surprise, he began trial the next day with “you were right, I read the cases.” It took everything I had to not break into dance moves of happiness.

       2. I really think she handled this really well by standing up for herself (and the law) (and her client? not sure)

       3. I actually don’t think that printing cases and summaries is at all equivalent to a p*ssing match, and it’s exactly how I would respond. Whenever a partner pushes back on my research (whether by being an a*hole or not), I think to myself, “OK, I haven’t done enough to convince him/her,” and I supplement with cases with highlighted portions and case summaries. That way, I’m standing up for myself and providing the partner (and client) with the answer they need. Then I try to learn from it — even though OP was right about the law, maybe she was wrong about how fundamental it is, or wrong about partner’s knowledge of that specific area of the law. So next time you write a memo for this partner, if your memo rests on a legal assumption, drop a footnote somewhere near the beginning saying, “It’s well-established that . . .” with some case cites.

    4. “We’re both right” is a super d!ck thing people do when they think they’re being nice about being wrong. A date once corrected my use of a word, and when I explained why I was correct and tried to change the topic, he pulled out his phone and looked it up, and found that I was right, except in academic psychology use. (He is a lawyer, not psych background.) “So we’re both right,” he said. “So we’re both having a terrible time on this date,” I should’ve replied.

       1. Must have been affect!

          1. Actually, it was empathetic. He insisted the word was empathic. (The latter of which triggers the spell-check squiggly red line.)

             I’m most familiar with the word “empathic” in the context of the Level 1 Pathfinder Psionic Power Empathic Connection.

    5. Good for you for standing up to that nonsense. And to compare it to the train wreck… our firm lost a colleague in that crash. Maybe I’m a little too sensitive, after dwelling on the position that his wife and small children are in now, but to me it speaks to your partner’s character that he’d say something like that not a week out, when the victims haven’t even been buried.

       1. I’m so sorry.

    6. Do you work at my firm? Sounds like a partner here who constantly argues that the “law is X” even though it is clearly not. And he just reamed me out for something another (more senior) partner authorized. Law firms are full of awful people. Good for you for standing up for yourself.

    7. This was the horrible partner I left.

       Exactly the same. He told me X was the law and I should write a legal research memo backing it up. When I reported back he mansplained I was wrong. on several different days, for an hour each time.

       Then I wrote a 10 page memo explaining exactly how he was wrong. At which point he said, “See, I was right, good job on the memo.”

12. The Supreme Court of Canada struck down the ban on assisted suicide, if anyone is curious…

    http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/scc-reverses-course-on-doctor-assisted-death-1.2223493

    1. This is causing a lot of conversation in my office today. Lots of human, legal, societal and political implications.

13. What is the max amount of paternity leave someone could take at your firm without raising eyebrows/jeopardizing partnership prospects? It seems like 4 weeks is often offered, but no one takes more than 2. Is this standard?

    1. At my firm we theoretically offer as much time as you want, as long as you still hit your annual billing target (the same standard applies to vacation time). However, taking more than 1 week will cause people to comment, and more than 2 weeks would probably injure your reputation. One older male partner brags to anyone who will listen about how he billed 9 hours from the hospital the day his first child was born and was back in the office the next day.

       1. Blerg.

       2. Gross.

    2. wow, glad I am in a small law office where everyone is offered the same (6 weeks paid plus 3 months unpaid) and everyone takes at least the 6 paid weeks. And many take the whole thing, men and women both.

    3. My large firm offers 8 or 9 weeks of paternity leave. The last two men who made partner in my office both took all of theirs, but split it up to take a month right after birth and then the rest over the next year.

    4. I think the usual around here is 1-2 weeks after the birth, and then the remainder of the allotted 4 weeks scattered throughout the rest of the year.

    5. My firm offers 4 weeks paternity leave as well. It’s a newish policy so there’s only one baby in my group so far to test it out – dad took the full four weeks and was praised for doing so.

       ETA – technically dads can take the leave any time during the first 6 months, I believe, but the general feeling seems to be that it’s best to take it all upfront (when you’d be out for at least awhile to attend to the birth, etc.) rather than take a chunk 3 months later.

    6. My current firm tends to be around the 4 week mark, though usually they are out of the office but somewhat responsive by email in weeks 3 & 4. The standard at my old firm was one week and taking any more than one week was “potentially career limiting.” Ironically, I believe both firms offer the same amount of leave on paper.

14. Has anyone tried the new gap jeans? I keep getting emails about them, but have been burnt by Gap denim in the past… My last pair of “perfect straight” jeans lose their shape after about an hour. I put them on, think I look nice, and then am a saggy mess before the day is half over.

    1. I am trying a new pair today! The “real straight” in the dark wash. They are holding up better than my previous pair of Real Straights (from 2012 or so – the knees were a big problem with those if I didn’t hitch them up before sitting down, which of course is not a good look and all but impossible when wearing knee high boots). Still “easing” a little throughout the day but so far I still feel tidy looking.

    2. Definitely mom-jeans/long-butt category for me, no matter what the cut.

       1. I really like them, but I think they’re a tall person’s jean.

       2. ha this is why I like them! I have a long torso (and I suppose that also means a relatively long butt) but short legs, and the short inseam styles are the perfect flats/tuck-into-boots length for me. They aren’t going to be winning me any street style awards but for Friday Jeans Days at the office, they’re perfect :)

    3. I’ve given up on Gap denim but I do like Banana Republic, so the company is at least capable of manufacturing decent denim. It would be great if they made the gap ones better again.

15. What do you think of burgundy highlights on dark brown/black hair? Unprofessional or doable?

    1. Depends on your workplace/level of formality.

       Others may disagree, but I think for business formal (and most business casual) conservative environments, you can’t veer outside the realm of colors found in nature. Doesn’t have to be anywhere near your own natural color (you can have jet black hair and go light blond, for example), but you can’t go green/blue/purple/etc.

    2. I think it’s totally fine. I’m probably biased because that’s what I have but I think it looks more subtle than blond highlights would. I like it and get a lot of compliments FWIW

       1. +1

    3. Totally fine. You’re talking about burgundy, not green (to anon) I think that would look very nice.

    4. I think it’s fine, too, especially for dark brown, nearly black hair, since I think that’s one of the more “natural” reds for dark hair. Maybe natural is not the word I’m thinking of, but complementary? Different shades of red work best with different shades of brown, I guess.

       Anon above’s standard of natural-only doesn’t really work for me. I think jet black hair or bottle-blonde would look more unnatural on some than burgandy looks on others.

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