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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. This top is highly dependent on fit or tailoring, at least for a sleek look but comfortable fit in the arms — but I think it looks really fresh and fun for spring and summer. I love that it comes in navy (am I crazy when I say it's the black of spring in terms of dark neutrals?) and ivory, and I feel like Rebecca Taylor always makes a silk blouse worth paying for. This one is $275 at Neiman Marcus. Hammered Silk Button-Front Top This post contains affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. For more details see here. Thank you so much for your support! Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail [email protected].Sales of note for 8.30.24
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Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Anonymous
I’m attending a seminar for the first time
(a DRI one, if it matters) – I leave today, taking someone else’s spot at my firm. Going alone. Don’t know anyone else who is going. Very last minute decison by my firm. I will have an hour to pack for a four day trip. Seminar emails have said dress is business casual – warm climate. Are things like a jersey dress and flats ok? I found an old corporette post that said ABA seminars say bus cas but everyone is in a suit. Help?
AnonMidwest
I’ve been to the Health Care liability DRI a few times and it’s truly Business Casual, very few suits as I recall. Not sure that holds true for all of the DRIs.
Beans
I’ve been to several DRI conferences. A jersey dress and flats would be perfectly fine. I often wore dresses during the day and then nice jeans for dinner.
ABA tax section
What about ABA Tax Section? It’s in DC, which can mean lots of IRS and Treasury people, so I feel the need to look sharp and represent my firm well. But it is suit-level formal at this meeting? Or will something like a printed DVF or black MMLF Etsuko be more the norm?
I haven’t been in years.
Peacock
Last time I was at an ABA tax section meeting (2 or 3 years ago?), the attire was suits, even for Saturday morning conferences.
SW
Ditto everyone else. I don’t remember ever seeing attendees in suits at any DRI conference, and I’ve been to a lot of them. They are really laid back. Have fun!
Anonymous
This. The DRI is a step more casual than some other conferences (those that involve bankers IME). I generally wear dresses and the guys I’m with are usually wearing jackets, no ties.
Jeans
Help me find jeans? I’m slim with narrow hips. I’ve bought jeans in the past from teen stores (Hollister, American Eagle, etc.). But now that I’m in my 30s I’m really disliking the experience of shopping at those stores. Most women’s jeans tend to be baggy in the rear and thighs since they’re made for a curvier silhouette. I also tend to bloat in my stomach, so high waisted styles feel uncomfortable (and make my short torso look ridiculous).
TorontoNewbie
The Rag & Bone mid-rise is slim cut in the hips & thighs and might be good for your requirements. Or the jeans from Uniqlo (although I find those stretch a lot).
NOLA
Yes! I discovered Rag & Bone recently and have been scouting out deals. I get that bagginess in the rear end and the extra fabric at the top of the thigh in many pants/jeans.
anon
Lee and Levi’s men’s might fit you- basically any of the menswear classics come in plenty of washes, sometimes even chinos etc. The upside is, they size length and waist separately! Women in my family have worm them for decades, because we have the body type you describe.
anon in brooklyn
I buy stuff from American Eagle all the time and I’m almost 40. I just buy it online—I hate going in the stores too.
Z
Same – rarely go to the store anymore. They fit me the best at a good price.
Laura B
+1 for ordering American Eagle online, especially if you know they fit you well and just dislike the store experience. I was wearing Express almost exclusively but ordered a pair of AE wide legged jeans on a sale and I was surprised with how much I liked them.
Another place to look – I really want to try Able jeans. They look good and I really like the company, I just need to convince myself that it’s worth the 3x. I wear jeans about five times a week so the usage is definitely there, its just the price tag. The most expensive jeans I have bought were Paige jeans, and I was def disappointed with the quality and fit over time. So that turned me off $100+ jeans.
Anon
Have you tried Express, Ann Taylor, Banana Republic?
Anonymous
7 for all mankind
anon a mouse
Madewell mid-rise or Rag & Bone
Anon
I’m pretty sure LOFT does jeans in both Julie and Marisa fits. Maybe Marisa jeans?
I’m the opposite and am excited to try Julie fit jeans!
anon
Lucky Brand has a low rise that I like for my short waist. High rise looks terrible on me and is super uncomfortable. It is the stella fit. Last time I checked though there were very few left. I really hope it isn’t phasing out low rise!
NOLA
I am built similarly. Have extra skin on my stomach, but straight through the hips and narrow thighs. My current jeans are rag & bone skinny, Levi’s 311, some cute polka dot Kensie skinny jeans, and Kut from the Kloth Diana but a size down.
Chi Squared
Petite and slim here. My favorite pair of jeans right now is J Crew toothpick jeans with an 8″ rise. I also have a pair of Ann Tayler modern skinny jeans that fit well too. Extra Petite is similarly slim, and has a bunch of denim recommendations on her blog/website.
Another anon
Similar build, or at least similar jeans-buying problem. I have had good luck with the Banana Republic Straight Fit ones (especially the factory version, for whatever reason).
Anonymous
Paging ladies who lift…
Do you find your weight goes up when you lift heavier weights ? How Long did it take to see muscles develop ?
anon
I don’t think I’ve noticed my weight go up. I’ve been steadily the same weight all my adult life despite lifting progressively heavier weights. I think when I first started lifting it took ~2 months or so for me to start seeing visible muscle. The other thing I’ll add, though, it that it depends a lot on how slim you are. You’ll have more obvious muscle definition for the same level of strength if you’re slimmer vs less so.
Biggestballsintheroom
Are you talking temporary weight gain post workout? Or long term weight gain? Not unusual to see the scale go up a few lbs post a hard workout. It shouldn’t be a long term weight gain though. It takes quite a bit of time to develop noticeable muscle gain. I am about 70 lbs down and have lifted through most of my weight loss journey. I have had a lot of fat loss but only recently started gaining noticeable muscle (per lean body mass testing) – I’m not talking the appearance of bigger muscles, I’m talking about definable gain of lean body mass. If you are relatively fit already, I would say you would see results a little sooner depending on intensity of workouts. Also, a lot of it depends on diet and age. I am 40+ and have to make sure I’m hitting a protein goal consistently for muscle gain.
Anonymous
Your weight may go up a few pounds initially due to water retention. I’m also “heavier” towards the end of a progressive lifting cycle where my volume has gone up week after week, but always drop it on the deload week.
People usually see noticeable improvements in 3-6 months — but we often notice small changes in ourselves before then :)
Anonymous
Muscle is denser than fat. This means that muscle will weigh more than fat but take up less space (volume) so for folks just beginning to lift, as they build muscle, it is not uncommon for the scale to go up a bit at first. As you continue lifting and “lean out,” you will then begin to drop weight. This is yet another well grounded scientific reason for why the scale is a horrible measure of “fitness” or “shape.” Stay fit, stay healthy, throw the effing scale away–it’s useless.
Anon
Yes, agreed with the above – when I lifted (which I really need to get back into), I saw my weight go up from 115 to 135, but I had to keep sizing down in clothes. I went from a 4/6 down to a size 0. This is why I never measure my weight.
nutella
Yes, this is better than what I was trying to write. This has been my experience, too. My weight on the scale didn’t really go up – at least not detectable more than normal fluctuations during the week – but it did remain pretty steady for a while. I could feel a ton of muscle forming though and felt super strong, which was awesome. I start to get definition in my arms and abs immediately, that’s just how my body is, and finally I started to see it in my legs. And then at some point, I started to lean out. This was a surprise to me was I wasn’t really in it for the weight loss/fat loss, but I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was going heavier each week and that change in routine set something off in my body. As with all exercise, be sure you are drinking enough water throughout the day, recovering well (days off, stretching, and sleeping enough), and eating a balanced diet. I do heavy lifts with a trainer to make sure my form and load progression are monitored; this isn’t necessary, but please do be extra, extra careful and attentive to your body.
Northwest Islander
Yes, this is accurate. When I was a non-active 14 yo I weighed 122 pounds and was a soft-bodied size 8. Now I am an active 38 yo – weight ranges from 115-120 pounds and a firm size 2-4. Anybody who guesses my weight thinks I am lighter than I am, due to muscle mass.
Ellen
I wish I was like you again. But my tuchus makes it difficult to fit into size 2, even tho I am also 115 pounds. I suppose it is just b/c of where the weight is. If I could relocate the weight from my tuchus to my leg’s, I could easily be a size 2 again! DOUBEL FOOEY!
Anonnona
I gained about 10-15 lbs over two years of lifting heavy. I was slim when I started and muscle built fairly quickly. Once I stopped lifting, I dropped the weight almost immediately. The extra weight didn’t bother me, but my traps and quads got big enough that I had to go up in size in jackets and pants. It really just depends on your body type, though.
MJ
Yes, I gained 10 lb of muscle my freshman year, and so did most of my teammates. We lifted heavy for our sport (water polo). We were all big ladies though (avg height on my team at the time was 5’10). You should, over time, see some weight gain. Whether you bulk or not depends on your body type.
Yes
My weight went up, but I only track it because I compete in a barbell sport. You’ll notice your muscles developing and you’ll see the weight increase, but if you are referring to physique changes, that’s about 80% diet.
Anon
We just learned that someone close to us is moving into hospice care. We would like to collect stories, photos and memories from friends and family to create a book for this person to hold close (and for family to hold forever). Ideally this is something we could do quickly and digitally and be able to spread the word quickly by email. I know their are companies that create similar things for milestone anniversaries, etc. (example: Awesome Box) but we haven’t exactly found what we are looking for — has anyone done something similar??
The original Scarlett
I love this service for what you’re talking about, but it might not be as fast as you’d like – the woman who owns it/ does the books is a historian and she does an amazing personalized job of preserving family history.
http://11stories.com
Anonymous
Not the OP but thank you for this! I’ve been trying to put together a photo/memory book of my Grandpa’s life and I feel like I don’t know what I’m doing or I’m not skilled enough at this to do a good enough job to truly honor his memory. This sounds perfect!
anon
For similar reasons but a different occasion, I sent the request for stories / pictures by email (had to work with some well-networked people in the community to get everyone’s addresses) and then put together a scrapbook using Shutterfly. It took some time to get all the text and pictures in where I wanted them, but they make the layout and design easy on you, and help you fit lower resolution photos in appropriately. It costs more to have them send it to you with rush service, but I think standard service was pretty fast too, at least to my major city.
anon
For similar reasons but a different occasion, I sent the request for stories / pictures by email (had to work with some well-networked people in the community to get everyone’s addresses) and then put together a scrapbook using $hutterfly. It took some time to get all the text and pictures in where I wanted them, but they make the layout and design easy on you, and help you fit lower resolution photos in appropriately. It costs more to have them send it to you with rush service, but I think standard service was pretty fast too, at least to my major city.
Anonymous
Can I suggest that for the person, you collect the stories quickly and then create the book for family members later? The family can read them to the person. Most people end up in hospice care too late – so they have days left instead of the weeks or months that would be an optimal use of hospice care.
From a Birdie
I am sorry about your friend.
My friend did this for her dad’s 50th. She sent us a link to From a Birdie where we could go write notes and upload pictures that she had printed as a book through From a Birdie.
Anon
OP here — this is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!!
Anonymous
Google Photos is amazing for this. You can send out a link (and set the sharing so that everyone with the link can contribute) and even people without Google accounts will be able to add photos. There is also a comment feature where people can share stories.
Anon
I’m feeling down because I found out that I need to start monthly infusions to treat an autoimmune disorder. It will ultimately benefit my health and it’s not something grueling like chemo, but I’m sad about the impact on my life and the need for lifelong medication. That said, I’m posting for practical advice – when should I tell my boss? I’m going to need some kind of accommodation, but I’m not sure what yet. Should I talk to my boss now and see what’s doable (ie, working a half day on infusion day, etc) or should I make a plan with my doctor and then try to make it work with my boss? The trick is that I don’t know treatment details yet (awaiting test results), but I don’t want to make some complicated plan with my doctor and insurance company and then have my boss come back and say it’s too hard to accommodate. Thoughts?
Anon Lawyer
Are you eligible for FMLA or a state equivalent? Because you can take that intermittently – i.e., a day here and a day there – and it sounds like this situation would definitely qualify. If you are, I would work out the treatment plan with your doctor and then explain to your boss/HR what you need to do and you should be legally protected. If you’re not, it might make sense to talk with your boss first. But your health should be the priority here.
Anon
No FMLA (small company), unfortunately. I’m not sure if other types of leave are available in CA, but I will look into it.
Coach Laura
The State of California has different (perhaps better) FMLA provisions than Federal FMLA. Agree with the other posters that you should wait until you have a better idea of parameters but being in California is generally better for leave. Good luck.
Disability Accommodation
For California, also check CFRA and more importantly requesting an accommodation for disability, which this is.
California workplaces with 5 or more employees are required to provide reasonable accommodations for disability, including time off for medical appointments. See this site for a sample request package and more info
https://www.dfeh.ca.gov/reasonable-accommodation/
Anon
I would do a mix but I have a good relationship with my boss and I’m at a small flexible firm. YMMV. If it were me, I’d start by telling the boss I am going to need some infusions and flexibility around those days. I’d expect some kind of do what you need to do response. Once I had that, I’d work out the plan with the doc, then I’d go back to the boss with the specifics.
Anonymous
Get a better understanding of what kind of time and accommodations you’ll need and then speak to your boss.
Inspired by Hermione
Get a better idea of what it will look like- and be prepared for the plan to go out the window. You may feel awful after the infusion. You may be able to sit at the infusion center and get a few hours of work done on your laptop. Make a tentative plan after you know more and firm it up once you’ve done a few.
Anonymous
+1. My husband had infusions of chemo and had only a subset of the symptoms they warned us might occur. Wait and see how you feel.
Anon
Has anyone gone through a weird and inexplicable change in things they “worry” about?
For as long as I remember, I’ve been perfectly happy to have what I cared about and ignore what I was “supposed to” care about. This was obviously great for my mental and financial health. However, it also left me with no skincare/makeup and shopping skills and I suddenly seem to care A LOT about appearances.
A similar pattern is emerging in my career choices. I’ve mostly cared about doing fun work, having a good work-life balance and pay and not much about the “brand” and title and am suddenly obsessed with the fact that my title, while nice isn’t “Fancy”
Other than losing my mind, I have no explanation for what has been happening to me and therefore no idea how to be normal again.
Trixie
You are not crazy, and this shift is not unusual. I think our priorities change at different ages and different moments in life. As I got older I cared more about how I looked: sweatpants and no makeup no longer “cut it” for me. And caring about these things does not make you “not normal.” Just go with it and enjoy dressing up a bit more, looking at job descriptions, and reflecting on why this shift is underway. Life is not monotone, values shift, needs change, etc.
Anon
“As I got older I cared more about how I looked: sweatpants and no makeup no longer “cut it” for me.”
Twenty-five years olds can look smoking hot in sweatpants and messy hair. That doesn’t quite work when you’re 40. You need more effort to achieve similar results of looking presentable.
anne-on
+1. Sad but true. I also realized recently I need to swap out some of my tried and true makeup looks. I wore more makeup when I was younger in an effort to look uber polished and adult and now I find it looks too done/harsh as I’m in my late 30s. Ditto with suddenly having to content with weird wiry grays and post-partum breakage/baby hair issues.
anon
Yes, and usually because I’m overly influenced by the people around me. So if someone comes into my life who pays a lot of attention to fashion, or to food trends, or is a really good cook, etc., it raises my standards for myself. My only defense is to remind myself of core values, but usually I just ride the new trend in my life.
CPA Lady
First of all, priorities change as we go through life and that’s fine. BUT I’m not sure what you’re describing is a change in priorities– it sounds more like insecurities are cropping up. There’s a difference between getting into clothes and makeup because it’s a fun hobby vs. feeling like you look like crap compared to other people, so all of a sudden you’re in a panic about your lack of shopping skills.
I would look at what social media and other stuff like that you’re consuming (including possibly this si te.) When I get sucked into an insecurity vortex, I find it helps me to follow a bunch of folks or groups on instagram or facebook who support the sort of values and life I would like to have, so I have those messages in my face to counter all the insecurities that are magnified by other messages I’m getting.
It seems like this is a good time for some self reflection. There is nothing wrong with wanting to refresh your appearance. There is nothing wrong with deciding you look fine but maybe you need to work on your mental health or gratitude journal or what have you. Just try and think about what might be at the bottom of it. I know I’m likely to fixate on something controllable either when I’m bored or when I’m anxious about something entirely unrelated.
Monday
I agree with this. People say that one of the perks of getting older is that you start to care less about all the “shoulds” in life, and more about your personal values. The opposite trend is happening for you, and you say you’re “losing your mind,” so I think it’s worth asking whether this is a genuine realignment or if you’re dealing with pressure to measure up and, as said above, insecurity. I think therapy could be helpful, as well as the above suggestions.
anon
This. Are you suddenly around more people who seem “fancier” in that it appears they have nicer clothes, better titles, better make up, etc?
Rainbow Hair
Well said, CPA Lady. I am a broken record on this, but curating the media you consume to reflect your values back at you is so great.
Another angle to look at this from is… sometimes when I worry about something big, I focus on smaller things it seems like I can control. So like, a new job — the real worry is “what if I am not good enough!?” — but instead I focus on “I have no appropriate clothes for this!!!”
Houda
I never used to care about pay and job titles.
And now, I am fighting like mad to have “project manager” title on all my proposals and to position myself as such because it’s my next promotion. I also know for sure that If I don’t get a pay raise soon, I will be extremely offended when I wouldn’t have bat an eye few years ago.
My clothing and makeup capsule is more and more refined, and I feel it has a lot to do with my career and social aspirations. Being surrounded by people who are put together, take care of their bodies, the environment, their image etc. is somehow rubbing off of me.
Anonymous
Did something happen that was a wake up call that you won’t be able to continue at work as you have been? If so, that’s fine, go with your gut and tackle traditional advancement, dressing for the job you want, find a mentor and get advice about how to advance, et . However, if this is due to being put in a social setting that made you feel insecure don’t do anything drastic. Feedback from my boss on dressing more professionally I would listen to. Feeling like crap after attending a conference in LA with those beyond well groomed women is something I would ignore.
anne-on
I think there’s also a point in your mid-career when you suddenly realize that you’re quickly faced with ‘up or out’ or ‘up or stagnate’ – do you want to be the boss in 5-10 years? Then you suddenly need to start making those moves to mid-level management now. If that isn’t important to you and you truly work to live, then maybe you need to accept that you may be in your 40’s, 50’s and beyond as a junior level person doing ‘ok’ work. That’s fine! One of my favorite co-workers ever in an early job was very happily doing data entry work because it paid well, had benefits, and he was always off at 5pm so he could do stand-up and write almost every night and weekend.
Laura B
DH and I are planning a one week trip to California in July – I always love reading about and planning trips so I’d love to get thoughts here. We have the rough logistics pretty much figured out but could use some input on where to go/what to do since I’ve only been to CA once a long time ago, and DH has never been. We’re flying out from Chicago to LAX on a Friday and will rent a car. We want to end up in San Francisco by Thursday to get on a train (Amtrack California Zephry train) back to Chicago. We like driving to explore so the driving is not a big deal to us – and I’ve already Googled the distances, so we’re all good there.
We have a friend we want to see in LA area, we want to see the redwoods and like hiking – so I’m thinking a day or two in Sequoia National Forest (any lodging recs?). I think we want to avoid the crowds of Yosemite and save that for a future trip. What else should we do? Should we spend more time in LA area or head up to San Francisco? What are your can’t miss stops for the area?
Anonymous
So you have 6 nights
Fri- LA
Sat- Santa Barbara
Sunday- San Simeon/Morro Bay
Monday- Big Sur
Tuesday- Monterey
Wed- San Fran
Thursday- Train
You’re driving from LA to SF. That is an all time classical coastal road trip. Do that trip. If you want sequoias and hiking, fly into SF and stay near there.
Anon
I prefer San Fran over LA (been each place twice), so I personally would have most of my trip focus on Northern California.
Absolutely plan a day for the Carmel area. I prefer Carmel over Monterey for that area, but it’s all so scenic (also you’ll want to do Big Sur on your way to Carmel).
In the Bay Area I recommend Muir Woods for redwoods. IIRC, we hiked Muir Woods then grabbed lunch in Saulsalito near the houseboats.
Ms B
If you like history or archaeology, putting in a plug for the La Brea Tar Pits in L.A., which exceeded expectations. It’s not often that you get to see actual archaeologists at work and even the cheesy 3-D films were interesting. You can see LACMA the same day (they literally are next to each other).
For L.A. food, we liked Dominique Ansel at The Grove for coffee and pastries (all the tasty treats of the New York location with none of the lines), Pink’s (be prepared for the wait), Pizzeria Mozza (book ahead), Lucques, AOC and Maude (book way ahead – there are only something like 8 tables there).
My favorite thing to do in San Francisco is go to the Ferry Market on a market day and wander among the vendors. I have yet to make it to SFMOMA, but it looks to be a very good collection.
In SF for food these days I like Yank Sing for dim sum, Cockscomb for lunch (fried mortadella sandwich!), Coi (spendy but worth it), and always Boulevard for dinner and ice cream at Humphry Slocombe (Ferry Market). I have wanted to go to State Bird Provisions for some time, but have yet to make it there. I also hear good things about Mr. Jiu’s.
Sounds like a great trip! Have fun!
Anon
We did this trip as part of our honeymoon (second part was the drive north of SF) and LOVED it! You’re going to have so much fun.
I would recommend stopping in:
– Solvang (just outside of Santa Barbara) – a cute Dutch-style town with tasting rooms and restaurants
– Cambria (stay at one of the hotels along Moonstone Beach) – a very quaint and quiet little town. While here you can see Hearst Castle and the Piedras Blancas elephant seal rookery (very fun!)
– Carmel and Monterrey (stay in Carmel; Los Lobos Lodge is nice and less pricey than some other hotels in the area). There’s so much to do here, but I loved just wandering around Carmel and all the shops, art galleries and tasting rooms.
– For the redwoods, they are definitely worth seeing – they are amazing and surprisingly were one of my favorite parts of the trip! (We went to Avenue of the Giants a bit north of SF for this, and it was amazing but I’ve also heard that Muir Woods are great as well.)
Fun lagniappe: Each of you make a road trip playlist. We each made one, and my husband’s was all songs with a California theme and it was so fun listening to them during the drive, and now when I hear those songs I always think of our trip.
Anon
LOVED Los lobos!! Absolutely recommend
Celia
Solvang is Danish, not Dutch. Ojai is also near-ish Santa Barbara, and it has a charming main drag.
thehungryaccountant
+1 to stops in Cambria and the Central Coast in general. Cayucos is another quaint beach town along the route.
Anon
For visiting sequoia national park stay at the Marriott in Visalia (yo, hometown shout out!) and plan to eat dinner on Main Street a couple of blocks away one night. It is really cute.
Rainbow Hair
We did this trip (the other direction, SF to LA) and it was so delightful!
Some things that haven’t been mentioned yet… We stayed at the Gosby House https://www.gosbyhouseinn.com/ and it was lovely. From there we walked (I think) to a bus stop and took a free (or very cheap) bus around to local wineries. We also stayed at the Estero Inn at Moro Bay. It was right on the water, and we walked to a great seafood restaurant on the nearby dock, and then got ice cream! I loved seeing McWay falls, outside of Julia Pfeiffer Burns State Park — just a stop off PCH as I recall, but really lovely.
Nesprin
Drive the 1!!! You leave LA and go through Day 1-2 santa barbara, day 3 hearst castle, day 4-5 carmel/monterrey, day 6 santa cruz and day 7SF, and so much gorgeous coastline.
Horse Crazy
+1. Santa Cruz/Big Sur have huge coastal redwoods, so I would recommend skipping Sequoia – it’s quite out of the way if you want to also see lots of coastline. I agree with LA -> Santa Barbara -> Morro Bay/Avila/Hearst Castle -> Big Sur/Carmel/Monterey -> Santa Cruz -> Half Moon Bay -> San Francisco. It’s an incredible drive.
SSJD
We did this road trip and enjoyed it. I liked Hearst Castle a lot. We drove up and back so one way we drove the more modern/faster highway and the other direction we took the windy, slow old highway 1. If only driving one direction, take the scenic (old road). Rent a convertible and bring a great hat to wear!
Biglaw Health Woes
Biglaw ladies, please help me decide how/whether to ask the company for leave for insomnia and anxiety?
I’ve had insomnia for 12+ months that has been getting worse despite multi pronged treatment attempts, and it’s really messing with my anxiety too (I have all the self-diagnosed symptoms of GAD). I spiral and then easily spend 2-3 hours a day crying untrollably, 1-2 days a week, as a result of that spiraling. I am in therapy.
My biglaw office is one where people regularly bill 3000+ hours, and has a super duper high shame factor around mental illness — which makes me reluctant to get a formal diagnosis for GAD and/or to cite it as a reason for requesting leave (it’s not right, but I would lose all credibility for taking a mental health day, let alone a whole month of leave). As far as I understand, the office doesn’t have a formal policy on leave, and it doesn’t strictly require a medical diagnosis for taking a month off if associates are really unwell, but I do have to convince the management committee that I am indeed unwell enough to need some time off. Easiest is of course a physician’s diagnosis, but I don’t know how much to disclose is prudent. I’m considering just mentioning prolonged insomnia without the anxiety part? I don’t know if there is even a formal diagnosis for insomnia alone. Any insight would be much appreciated. Thank you.
Anonymous
We lost one partner to a single-car accident after an all nighter (fell alseep). We had another go into the hospital for a month or so after a failed suicide attempt. Managed mental health is not easy, but it is worse than the alternative. We act like we have the luxury of time, but that’s how we kid ourselves.
pugsnbourbon
I am really sorry you are going through this.
Your health is more important than your job and its unreasonable expectations. Please tell them you are facing a serious health crisis and you need to deal with it immediately, and then take the time off.
Taking time off for mental health is way more common than you might realize. I hope you start feeling better soon.
anon
Honestly, if it’s that bad, why not just look for a new job that’s actually compatible with living a healthy life?
It sounds like you already know this, but don’t disclose anxiety or mental health issues if you can avoid it. I wound up forced to disclose GAD to my biglaw firm. I was, like many of us, asked “where I was taking my career next”. That decision by the firm was due to many factors that had nothing to do with me as an attorney and were largely outside my control, but they also cited what I had told them about my anxiety as a factor. I highly doubt that a firm with expectations like yours will be empathetic to anxiety issues. I’m sorry. That all sounds awful to deal with.
Anonymous
I agree with this advice. Absent a very clear diagnosis and speedy recovery, I’ve unfortunately never seen an associate successfully re-enter after a medical leave. BUT that should not stop you from doing what you need to do for your health. Talk to your doctor about getting an insomnia diagnosis and treatment recommendation that includes a leave of absence. Try to avoid disclosing GAD, but do it if you have to. Above all else, look for a new gig while you’re on leave/following your return unless (1) you truly love your job/practice area/coworkers and think you want to return to 3000 hour practice if you can get a handle on your health issues or (2) you really only want 12-18 months more of Biglaw for financial reasons and plan to go in a totally different direction.
Anonymous
If you’re truly in biglaw, I would be surprised if there isn’t a policy in your employee handbook/attorney practice manual. You also likely have access to a semblance of an HR department (with a rep in your office, even if you’re in a satellite office) who can help point you in this direction.
I know the stigma you’re talking about where you are the only one billing less than X hours and the only one not in your seat all day until 3 am, but your health is more important than the job. As other wise women say here often – the firm would not hesitate to turn around a fire you tomorrow. Also, to be frank, no firm wants the publicity of anyone leaving because they couldn’t have a day off or the publicity of being a sweatshop. Look on your firm’s intranet page for a handbook/manual. More importantly, look on your state bar website for the hotline if you need to be connected with a counselor. It seems like you could use someone to talk to.
I was in your shoes a few years ago and left that job. I went to a bigger, more intense firm and am doing MUCH better. You may just need a new start, but at a minimum, sending you good thoughts.
Anonymous
Does GAD cause other symptoms for you? If it causes heart racing — I say get someone to give you a diagnosis for non specific cardiac issues. It can still be a career ender as people question whether a young person with heart problems can go the distance, but not with the same stigma as anxiety. And then take that month and look for another job — even in biglaw, not all firms are like this.
Anon
Keep in mind that you have FMLA protection, so if you need temporary leave for medical reasons (which is why you need a diagnosis from a physician but you DON’T have to disclose the diagnosis) then take it. Your health is worth it. I also would not disclose anxiety disorder as most work places, but big law in general see mental health issues as a personal flaw (it’s not) and will use it as an excuse to push you out.
It also sounds like this place is just not a good fit long term as it doesn’t allow you to properly treat your illnesses and may contribute to them. In your shoes I’d take FMLA for as long as I needed (speak with a doctor) and start interviewing while on leave for places that better fit your life and medical needs.
Anonymous
If you are under the care of a physician, get a doctor’s note on your restrictions. If she recommends leave just tell the firm you are under doctor’s orders to be out for a specific time. You do not owe them an explanation of your medical condition.
anon
Freind in the general admin/bookkeeping is likely going to get fired in a few weeks- boss wants her out in spite of FMLA, so the “improvement plan” is just paperwork. This will be her 2nd firing and 3rd bad reference- all due to exploitative/illegal labor pratices. It’s going to be so, so, hard for a middle-aged woman to overcome that.
Questions of the day would be: would it be better to quit instead of getting fired? And any advice would be welcome as well.
Laura B
My two cents is yes, I think quitting would be better. In job hunting/interviews I would explain it as leaving due to the FMLA issues that have been resolved. As a hiring manager it would be a big red flag to me to see two firings.
Anon
Honestly, she should talk to an attorney, file at her state’s non-discrimination commission, or go to the EEOC.
She can look into going into a field with more flexibility around her schedule, which might make it easier for an employer to accommodate her. What skills does she have? Would she be willing to work from home in a virtual role? Start her own company?
anon
Last time it happened, she had written proof of financial discrimination (raises and personal loans to white men, but not women or POC), and of sexual harassment—all the relevant authorities said that sucked, was a textbook case, but they didn’t have time/staff to help. So faith in the system isn’t high.
EB
Who are “all the relevant authorities”? The EEOC (and usually the state agencies) are overloaded and overworked, but they don’t tell people they don’t have time/staff to help.
Something about this does not sound right, from your comment above, to the fact that this is the second firing for potentially discriminatory reasons. Either your friend is incredibly unlucky or there is more to the story. But to answer your question, this employment lawyer would suggest that she (1) seeks out an employment attorney to look into whether she has any kind of claim, (2) starts looking for another job immediately, and (3) if she does get fired, hire an attorney to try to negotiate some kind of neutral reference where they only give out her dates or employment and title. Lots of employers only do that now anyways. An employment attorney can help her get there if what you’re saying is true about her being fired while using FMLA.
anon
Negotiating for neutral references is a helpful idea, thanks. She may be able to get traction on that.
More to the story, yes, isn’t there always? In this case, I think the culture of the isolated small town is the common denominator, so I’m pushing that she leave (like I did). We worked together at the first bad shop, so I know it really was that bad, and I believe it was the state agency that she talked to. They suggested she get a private employment lawyer, but that wasn’t an option at the time.
Anon
Private employment lawyers (like me) often take cases on a contingency fee basis. She doesn’t need to have cash up front to get a lawyer if she has a good case.
Houda
The thing is if she is going to be fired, she will need to find a job whether she is still employed or not. Quitting does not change the fact that she cannot get a nice recommendation from her employer. I’d stay until they kick me out just for the money. There might even be a severance, you never know. I’s rather be paid and have insurance while I am aggressively searching for a job. Even one or 2 paychecks can make a difference, and that also minimizes the gap she will have on her resume.
Anonymous
Gently, I don’t know many people who have been fired once, let alone twice. And not when it is 100% someone else’s fault. If it’s genuinely the case here, perhaps this field isn’t for your friend? If I were a quiet introvert, working as a bartender somewhere where they bartenders are expected to dance on the bar and entertain just wouldn’t ever work. Maybe it is time to regroup and retool?
Anonymous
Won’t she want unemployment? Quitting can complicate that.
anon
Can you get unemployment (or just as importantly COBRA?) after being fired for cause? The websites are really really unclear…
Anonymous
You can definitely get Cobra and typically can get unemployment
anon
If you have an…. understated personality, how do you go about self promotion and all that to make sure you’re still successful? Does anyone have stories or advice to share on how to climb the ladder when you don’t have that kind of huge presence that just sucks all the air out of the room?
Anon
For me, it has been about forming close personal relationships with people who have the ability to sponsor / promote me, combined with doing good work. Basically the work will speak for itself, and then instead of “promoting” myself, I would have honest conversations with partners (I’m in law) about my goals and seek advice from them on how to achieve them. I’m naturally very shy and reserved, so these one-on-one interactions were what worked for me (again, combined with doing good work and being very responsive).
Anon
Fake it.
Anonymous
There is a business development book for introverts.
Tampons or Menstrual Cups
DH and I are going on vacation to a private hot spring type of accomodation soon, and it will be smack in the middle of my period. The pool will be used by just the two of us, but I’d rather not have an accident(?) all the same. I rarely go in the water during my period but this time I’d like to take advantage of the pool since it’s the main attraction. These might be super basic questions, but is it okay to wear tampons or menstrual cups for going in the water? Is it okay to go into the water during your period? Any brand-specific advice or recommendations? I’ve always used reusable cotton menstrual pads and am totally new to tampons and menstrual cups — appreciate any input!
Anonymous
Yes of course you can go in the water when you have your period! A tampon is fine! Tampons are always fine! Why would you only use reusable cotton pads? How did you even get started with that? I feel so sad for you that you’ve been deprived all these years!!!!!
Anon
Calm down on the judgement. There’s nothing wrong with someone who has chosen to use pads instead of tampons.
To answer the question: I like Playtex Sport.
PolyD
I am kind of feeling like we need to bring back those tampon commercials that show women swimming, riding horses, doing gymnastics…
Yes, one major point of using tampons is to go swimming, it’s totally fine. They take a bit of practice to insert – I remember that the plastic applicators went in more easily.
Another thought – if you are on the Pill, you can skip the placebo week and go right to next pack so you don’t have your period at all. When the Pill was originally designed way back when, there was no placebo week – you just never got your period – but women were uncomfortable with not having a period at all (hard to tell if you were pregnant, I suppose) so they put in the placebo week. So it’s totally fine to skip it – I did it all the time when I was young enough to worry about having a period.
Rainbow Hair
Caveat, though! If you haven’t done it before, you might want to be careful about trying for the first time on a trip. I used to get kiiiiiller migraines any time I effed w my HBC.
Jo March
So what do you after that? Have two periods that are closer together or ask your Dr. to refill the prescription earlier? Asking for myself because I’ve been on the pill now and can like being able to know for certain when my period is expecting but have never skipped the placebo week.
Anon
Jo March: Ask the doc to write the refill earlier (if you need to, you may be able to skim by–a week isn’t that early to refill a script). DO NOT do two off weeks together–that is a recipe for getting preggers. I know many women who never take the placebo week (I used to do it this way also). It keeps your hormones steadier and can eliminate some hormone-related symptoms (for me it was migraines).
Jo March
I’m glad you understood my question with how many typos I made – thanks! I’ll just make sure it’ll still be covered from an insurance POV. My coverage is very strict – they won’t even let me pick up 3 pill packs at a time, so I have to go the pharmacy every month.
Vicky Austin
Tampons are A-OK for swimming and there’s no reason not to go in the water while on your period. Have fun!
Anon
Of course you can go in the water.
OP
Thanks! Woe is me…Nonexistent sex ed / dialogue (except that provided by pad companies, ha) + chemicals in disposable pads straight up giving me so much menstrual pain and acne = overly nervous about side effects of toxic tampons & turning to organic cotton pads, which actually have worked great for everything, except for the hassle with the washing. I will give tampons a try!
emeralds
FYI there are plenty of places that make organic cotton tampons these days, if that’s something you’re specifically concerned about.
Anon
Definitely try a cup at some point. So easy, non-toxic, environmentally friendly, and you don’t have to walk around straddling a bloody diaper in your pants. There are organic cotton tampons, fyi.
Is it Friday yet?
If I were you, I’d try the cup instead of tampons – zero chemicals, reusable, and for a lot of people, they reduce cramps. I think they’re more comfortable, and much prefer them for swimming, too. Slightly more of a learning curve, but worth it.
Anonymous
Tampons are not toxic. Honestly. Literally any tampon is fine. If you want organic cotton go for it! But you don’t need to take this worry on.
The Original ...
It sounds like you have time before you go. Decide which type of product you’ll use, purchase it now, and begin to practice with it. For me, t@mpons were used from the very first per!od. However, it took practice to insert, to get it in the right spot, to feel comfortable doing it, etc. While you may not be as lubricated during a non-time, whatever you’re going to use, begin to try it out. Know that it takes tries for many to get it into the right spot and to feel confident in having done it right to be protected from leaks, so give yourself patience/time!
Also, many in the water never see any leaks anyway since the water dilutes everything, so even if there is a small bit of error, you’re probably totally going to fly under the radar about it! :)
Have fun on the trip!
The Original ...
Oh! And make sure you set a reminder in your phone or wherever to remove the inserted item when the per!od is over, that’s something easy to forget for new users and you won’t want that. (Depending what you use, check into how it works/requires removal for s3xy time too, just so you know in advance!)
BB
Both will be fine, but if you have the time to try things out, I prefer the cup. It’s much less likely to leak in my experience (although YMMV), and has no risk of strings sticking out. Also, you’ve probably already considered this if it is an option, but you could also skip your placebo week if you are on birth control pills and just not have a cycle that month. I’ve done this before when things don’t line up with a vacation. Know your body though, of course.
UHU
I’d try organic cotton tampons. In my experience tampons are less tricky than the cup when you’re not used to either. Seventh Generation is good. I found no applicator to be easier to insert. Don’t practice unless you’re menstruating (it will be uncomfortable). Have fun!
Rainbow Hair
I really like the cup. I actually used one for the first time right before a girls trip that involved a lot of swimming. No problems, and it was so easy. I would give it a test run with some water to lubricate, just for confidence.
Seeking advice from litigators
I’m a lawyer (6 years out of law school) at a public interest firm that works in an issue area I believe in. However, I find myself being worn out by the constant fighting with defense counsel about what feels like every little thing, from discovery issues to scheduling. I enjoy the arguments on the merits, but the adversarial undertone of everything else is draining for me. Am I just not cut out for litigation?
Anonymous
Same about being worn out. It is so tedious. No advice, just commiseration and the same question.
Anonymous
Why are you fighting over every little thing? Is it defense counsel or your organization’s approach? As a litigator, you can choose what to fight about and most importantly what is worth fighting over. Usually the merits are worth the fight–the rest is just window dressing (with some exceptions from time to time). Sometimes litigator’s get so caught up in the fight they lose sight of what they are really there for–to solve problems for clients–not create new ones…evaluate what is going on and why and maybe you can find your purpose again!
anon
I’m feeling OP hard right now- civil litigation, 6 years out of school but on the defense side and I am just. over it. The reality is that there are attorneys out there who just make it a practice to be absolute jerks over everything. I’m not one of then. My firm doesn’t have that philosophy. But if opposing counsel is going to choose to be combative and difficult for no reason, I can’t change his behavior. I can only respond professionally. But to some extent, if he’s choosing to pick a fight, I can’t just choose not to address it. It gets really obnoxious and takes away from the enjoyable parts of law. I feel like I have so many cases where plaintiffs desperately want to keep the focus on ancillary crap just to keep the attention off the merits, or try to score a win on procedural crap/driving up costs in an attempt to force settlement.
OP
OP here – I am usually fighting about every little thing because (as described below) the opposing counsel is forcing me to. It’s not (usually) something within my control.
Appellate attorney
If there is an opportunity to transition to appellate work, either within your current office or at another job (the gov’t is usually your best bet), I highly recommend it. I hated the tedium of trial litigation and the constant hostilities from opposing counsel. Appellate work in the gov’t is nothing like that — if anything, opposing counsel tends to be overly respectful. It has been a refreshing change.
Anon
Alternatively, if you are in a practice area know for fighting, you may want to consider changing areas. Some types of litigation attract more people who want to fight about everything
westernisland
I left litigation for this reason and it was the best possible decision for me. I have a few litigation matters here and there and going back into that arena makes me instantly batty. I’m just not wired for it and that’s okay.
Anon
late but I am almost 8 years out of law school and I feel the same. I am so over litigation for similar reasons and I’m looking to leave but I don’t know what the next steps are.
Abby
I wanted to thank everyone who gave suggestions for Toronto. My husband and I went this past weekend to celebrate our first anniversary and had the best time! We walked around St. Lawrence Market, Distillery District (spirit of york is amazing), Kensington Market, Casa Loma, and ate & drank everything. I took him to Coffee, Oysters, and Champagne, and during our drive home yesterday, we both thought it was the coolest place we went all weekend. What a wonderful city, I can’t wait to visit again!
Never too many shoes...
So happy to hear you had a good time. I am biased but I think Toronto has a lot going on as a city.
rices
Omg yes! I was one of the people that recommended COC! So glad you enjoyed!!
Private Equity / Banking In-House?
Does anyone have experience working in-house for private equity houses or investment banks? Can you comment on the culture? Being on the law firm side of M&A doesn’t exactly leave a favorable impression of the culture, but wondering if it’s any different if your role is in-house.
Cat
Two acquaintances from my firm went “in house” to these and were job hunting again pretty quickly. The culture, combined with a bit of a pay cut but just as unpredictable of a schedule as Biglaw were real turnoffs.
Anonymous
I interviewed at an in house PE job where all of the interviewers bragged about how associates come in from Skadden and they can’t survive the hours and culture of their PE shop. So that was a hard pass. Investment banking — tons of people from my firm go in house there. No one seems particularly overjoyed, BUT no one is job searching the following year either. When they’re being candid about it, they will tell you the hours are not that much better than they were in biglaw though perhaps fewer weekends than at our firm; it can be a bit of a pay cut at first but not much and it evens out as their bonuses are also bigger in up years.
Anon
Why are you limiting yourself to PE and investment banks? You’ll get the best of both worlds going in house to an acquisitive operating company – especially the larger companies who have designated in house M&A counsel – better hours, better culture (sometimes, very company specific), and more control over your schedule.
Anon
^This. Also, note that in an investment bank, you’re a cost center. You will never be the actual moneymaker. It’s a weird mental change from being in law firms which are super-hierarchical and where you were on top. You’re essentially support.
I would definitely look for a serial acquiror over in-house in M&A or PE. Certain PE shops can be great–look around. Most banks pay well but my friends have been really, really bored and frustrated.
FWIW, I’ve been both a banker at a bulge bracket and an M&A/cap mkts lawyer.
My only friends that have enjoyed being at banks are those who sit on a desk and do structuring work, so they are really bankers, not as much lawyers.
anon
+1
ANon
Reminds me a little of Friends From College storyline about being in-house at a Hedge Fund.
UHU
What are some specific techniques you use to stop thinking about things that happened a long time ago or people who are no longer in your lives? Yes, therapy but in addition/parallel? My ex-partner was abusive and every now and then there is something that happens that makes me realize, oh yes, that’s another abusive behavior. Then I get mad and forgive myself but there’s always new stuff that I didn’t acknowledge at the time/wasn’t aware of.
Monday
Maybe this is just a quirky me thing, but I make lists in a journal for things like this. In your case, the title could be “X’s Abusive Behaviors” and then you can write out everything you already have thought of. Then when new things come to you, go back to the list and add them. Something about seeing it on paper, and being able to add, has brought coherence to me for certain issues. Even the very length of a list like this can feel affirming.
Inspired by Hermione
That doesn’t sound like something to be mad at yourself about. It happens. It’s natural to see something that reminds you of an abusive situation and think about that situation- even if the reminder is another type or instance of abuse that you didn’t experience. Let it happen. Don’t judge it. If the association is immediate, give yourself a minute or so to sit with it. And then I find that physically changing my focus, taking deep breaths, and even moving purposefully away from the reminder can give my brain a reset. For example: “Oh, that angry tone of voice that man is using with his partner reminds me very much of Abusive Guy and that’s upsetting. Huh. Not loving how stressed I feel. Remember, self, it wasn’t him and he’s not in my life. Deep breaths. Ok. Look, Dad is over at the cashier. I wonder what he’s harassing the cashier about right now? Maybe I should go save her.” Walk away, probably faster and more intentionally than I usually do. Just something to refocus myself and not get stuck. But I think it is important to let the reminder or how it makes you feel happen, even if it’s just seeing it, naming it, and giving it a tiny bit of time.
OP
Thanks for these suggestions. I get mad because it happened, that I didn’t know better, should have seen the signs, I should have xyz. Then I forgive myself because I didn’t know better/understand the behavior, it wasn’t my fault. But I’m not sure if I’m successful at forgiving because then either new stuff comes up or I overthink his behavior and mine. It’s also happened with an ex-friend (who told everyone I was family), who in hindsight I realized took advantage of me for certain things. It’s become quite difficult to trust people and to trust my judgement of people-are all people jerks, do I attract jerks, am I attracted to jerks, or do I bring out their jerk tendencies.
Aside, this top is gorgeous.
Inspired by Hermione
Oh, gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood- but I think some of the same things work. Just let it happen, without judging what’s going on. Kind of like they say in meditation- just let the thoughts happen, good or bad.
You're doing OK
I think this is part of the process. Talk about it in therapy. Do the things the therapist suggests as “homework.” If they don’t make a suggestion, ask for one. Definitely talk through this with the therapist and I am 100% positive they will tell you that this is part of the new awareness that you have after realizing you were in an abusive relationship. And it’s OK. But, yes, forgive yourself. The distrust is also normal. Remember that the ex-partner’s behaviors weren’t about you, they were about them. Their need for control. Their need for whatever. You can only move forward by remembering that and also remembering the skills you learn in therapy regarding setting boundaries, etc. Be gentle with yourself. This sh*t takes time.
Sinus drama
Per my ENT, I’m not sick, I just have a chronic sinus infection. I’m gunky, but can’t get anyone else sick (in fact, I’ve been on various antibiotics for months trying to kick this). I am also periodically stuffy and you can hear it when I talk. I need to go on some client calls and conferences, but, ugh, I thought I’d not be dealing with this.
I’m relieved that I’m not in health care or food service where I’d probably be viewed as a menace to others and their health / food safety. But how to deal with being around others (like the person on the plane next to me) when I seem to be sick but won’t get them sick.
Blergh.
Inspired by Hermione
Name it. This was me for 15 years. I always sounded sick (often deathly so) even when I wasn’t contagious. “I know I sound awful, but I can’t get you sick- I have a chronic condition that makes me sound like this!” Be up front about it and I’ve found that people respond really well and it removes the stress.
Anon
I have a chronic cough- the wet, chesty kind most people only get when they’re sick. When people look at me funny, I just tell them, “Don’t worry, I’m not sick.” I don’t know if they really believe me, though… I’m sorry, it is sort of awkward.
Anonymous
I would just tell people it’s allergies.
Anonymous
I have a chronic runny nose (it is seriously so annoying, I am on the verge of seeing an ENT, I have never sought medical treatment for it) and I always lie and say its allergies.
CoastalCanuck
You may have what I have! I did see an ENT about this to discuss solutions/mitigation. It’s a type of rhinitis that’s NON-allergic (“vasomotor rhinitis” to be specific). This means it’s an all year round, around the clock event (but the associated congestion seems to get worse with drastic temperature swings, eating spicy food, or drinking alcohol). Depending on the state of your sinuses and the congestion factor, an ENT might recommend a sinoplasty but that won’t solve the rhinitis portion – just the drainage part. Per the ENT’s treatment plan, I find taking an oral antihistamine with decongestant daily (or just a plain decongestant), rinsing with a neti bottle, and using a prescription nasal corticosteroid about the best.
anon
I’m the person who posted a couple weeks ago about the nightmare baby shower guest (long story short; one guest refused to RSVP, complained to the guest of honor that I was too demanding for asking the entire guest list fb group to RSVP, then showed up without RSVPing and brought an uninvited plus one to an event with a guest list of 15, then yelled at me across the shower that I was too demanding and should have shut up about the RSVPing, then spent 3 days fb messaging me about how I was a horrible hateful person who should have thought more about her feelings and how no one at the event liked me).
The guest of honor brought it up to me and said she’d told me the person was drama and I should have not posted asking for confirmed RSVPs in the invite group as it might rile the awful guest up. Said that the drama at the baby shower in which the guest yelled at me across the shower made things worse and I made it worse when I responded in a quieter and upbeat tone that, next time, she was welcome to host her own shower. Said it brought negative emotions to the event for her. I apologized for responding to the guest at the event, said I realize I should have just ignored her, and I wanted to get us back to being excited for the baby. She hasn’t responded to that but has begun to like my posts on fb again (oddly, so has the rude guest).
The guest of honor has been one of my closest friends for almost 20 years. (Close enough that she asked me to host her shower.) I feel pretty terrible that it seems she took the awful guest’s side here, that I should have known to avoid drama guest’s drama rather than that drama guest should have not behaved that way. How do I get past feeling hung out to dry, misunderstood, and not chosen in this situation? I love this friend and never thought I’d be someone whose side she wouldn’t choose in general, let alone in a situation in which I felt so upset that drama guest was so awful during an event that took a lot of money and time to celebrate a friend I adore.
Anonymous
You don’t. Your friend is being horrible. Lean out.
Anon
You’re easier to control than she is. Disengage and let your friend come to her senses.
Anonymous
You can’t remake horrible people, but you can avoid them.
Is horrible guest related to shower honoree? If not, new bundle of joy will minimize her time in your life unless you invite them in. It’s a natural off-ramp for avoiding people if you want.
anon
It sounds like you handled the conversation with your friend well, even though you really didn’t do anything wrong. I agree with leaning out for a bit, then making an appearance when the baby is born and there’s something else to talk about. This doesn’t excuse your friend, but sometimes people get used to a certain relative behaving a certain way all the time, and it becomes their “normal,” and everyone knows to act a certain way around racist Uncle Fred or rude Aunt Linda. It’s not fair to put that burden on other people, especially people who are doing something nice for you, but it’s easy to become desensitized to all the social acrobatics people do around that relative.
Vicky Austin
+1
beats
+2 I never realized how difficult one of my family members is until I got married and my husband brought an objective eye to the situation.
Worry about yourself
Big yikes. This nightmare guest could have simply not have been invited; the guest of honor simply telling you the woman was “drama” wasn’t nearly specific enough. She could have offered more specifics on how not to poke the bear, or stepped in to mitigate the problem if she really felt that this person needed to be present; honestly though, people who need to come with a warning label aren’t good to have around, especially at special occasions that are supposed to be happy. Either way, it’s a shame the guest of honor is mad at you for provoking this person, instead of being upset with this person for being a problem guest, you worked hard to throw a great shower, you did the best you could in the moment, and you deserve some credit for that.
Falstaff
Captain Awkward talks about this sometimes in families, where people lean on the reasonable person to placate the unreasonable person because they know it’s pointless to expect better of the unreasonable person. This results in unfair pressure on the reasonable person to keep the peace and gives the unreasonable person a pass for their bad behavior. I’m sorry your friend put you in this position, and hopefully down the road you can have a conversation about why you are hurt by her actions.
Anon
Not the OP, but I need to read this multiple times a day.
Falstaff
I’m sorry you are dealing with this. Here’s one discussion from CA, if that’s helpful to you. https://captainawkward.com/2015/02/27/673-my-insufferable-brother-is-ruining-all-the-time-i-spend-with-my-family-winter-pledge-drive/
Worry about yourself
Yep, that sounds about right. I’d also like to bring up the Missing Stair concept that’s frequently mentioned on CA’s blog (but originated on Pervology). Having a friend in your social group that you always need to warn people about is like having a missing stair in your house, and just letting people know it’s broken instead of fixing it; if something bad does happen, you blame the person who provoked the behavior instead of the problem person, just like if someone gets hurt on the missing stair, you say it was their fault for not being careful enough. If you need to warn people about a person’s behavior, you need to address the behavior, stop expecting others to work around it.
Financial insecurity
How do I ever feel secure financially? No relatives, single, career that is largely freelance or set in hiring chunks (think adjunct or short-term employment type). I used to think I needed x in the bank to feel secure and lower my anxiety, then I hit the number and the number increased, then it happened again, etc. I’m realizing it may not be about the number itself but rather worrying that I may never find more work, that I never have guarantees about ever working again, etc. I have multiple advanced degrees (NAL), moved to a LCOL area, minimized my bills, etc. so it’s not as if I’d be unqualified for other work. (I actually LOVE my work itself), I just feel like I’m always aware of and anxious about the financial security aspect. I don’t want to give up doing what I love to try to do something I’d hate but might have more job security (though in Right to Work states, does anything ever really stay secure?!). I also don’t want to be focused on money since that’s not who I am, I just don’t want to feel anxious, even though I know this isn’t an obscene or ridiculous thing to worry about since I don’t have family or a spouse’s money to fall back on in a worst case scenario.
Anonymous
Therapy for your anxiety.
Anon
This, but also, talk with a financial planner – you can buy away some of these worries with things like disability insurance, conservative retirement vehicles (I wouldn’t recommend this from a growth perspective, but would from a “I’m crippled in fear of losing my money” perspective), and having a financial expert calculate your budget and cost of living to evaluate a real number to keep liquid in case of job loss.
Anonymous
What’s wrong with continuing to move the goal posts? When net worth is 300,000, focus on getting to 500k. Once you’re at 500k, then focus on $1mil. I mean ultimately that’s where financial security comes from so I don’t get how focusing on money “is not who I am.” Only trust fund kids or those married to investment bankers can go on about how money is not who they are. The rest of us have to focus on it.
celery
Worrying about your own money is normal and prudent. It’s focusing on other people’s money that’s gross.
Aggie
I graduated law school under what felt like a mountain of debt. My monthly budget was on a shoe string and every extra penny went to debt. Money became my obsession, my every worry. I did not have your issue as I am secure in my career but I can sympathize with your financial anxiety.
I did not feel financially secure until the day I paid off my mortgage and had twelve months of expenses in the bank. On that day, I told myself that even if the worst case scenario happened, I could still drive Uber and live 15-18 months should it take that long to find my next job.
I also found a fee based financial adviser who helped me navigate the right mix of investments. We meet twice a year and he is teaching me where to invest my money – rather than selling me. He also grades my previous investments and provides an overall financial forecast.
anon
how did you find this financial advisor? he sounds great
Aggie
I found him through NAPFA (https://www.napfa.org/financial-planning/what-is-fee-only-advising). My undergraduate degree is in Finance and I contemplated becoming a CFP before going to law school so I was aware of the types of planners available.
I interviewed several planners before selecting one and I was most comfortable with a Financial Adviser who was being paid hourly – just as I am.
Anonymous
My suggestion is to play it out like Aggie did by playing “What’s the worst thing that can happen?” BUT with each answer, ask yourself “then what?” You’ll see that a) the worst case isn’t so bad and b) you have a plan. Make sure you do this in a disciplined way by truly asking the questions and not spiraling. For me at a prior job it went like this: So, what’s the worst thing that can happen? I lose my job. And then what? Then they present me with a severance package. And then what? Well, I know that the standard severance is x weeks. And then what? I also know that’s negotiable and have some pain points I can press. And then what? Well, I used to waitress so worst case scenario if I cannot find another of my types of roles is that I can waitress at some place. And then what? And then I keep networking. ETC ETC ETC. And then what? Take a bubble bath.
Housecounsel
So many of you love to talk about vacation planning. Am I the only one that hates it? I love being on vacation and am so happy every time I am at my destination. While I’m there I vow to travel more. But the planning process – can I miss work that week? Do the kids have sports events to plan around? Who will feed my cats and will they spend enough time petting them? It stresses me out terribly. I even skip over the posts here about destinations that interest me because I feel my blood pressure rising. My BFF loves the planning process almost as much as the trip itself. Am I alone here?
anon
I love planning as much as the trip itself, but not the parts you’re talking about. I don’t like taking care of all the home-side stuff–coordinating with co-workers about time off or clearing it with my boss or looking at the family calendar or booking the pet-sitter. I don’t even particularly like booking plane tickets or packing.
I like picking a general itinerary, looking at hotels, and bookmarking possible activities. You see pretty pictures and think about how much fun you’ll have and fantasize about being somewhere that’s warm in February or cool in August. In fact, I’ve “planned” 3-4 vacations that we haven’t had an opportunity to take. (At the time I planned them, I had tentative dates, but then work or family stuff came up, and we canceled or never booked anything.) I just save my bookmarks and hope we make it to those places one day.
PolyD
You are not alone. I can take a week off work with no repercussions or mounds of work when I get back. I don’t have kids, I don’t have pets, I have enough disposable income to throw at (most) problems that may arise.
But I do not like planning trips at all. The best was when I would travel with my mother and sister – they’d pick a couple of European cities to go to, I’d help choose which one, then my mother would work with her travel agent to get us a good package. All I had to do was show up at the airport, and maybe peruse a book and find a couple of things I wanted to see.
I find the logistics very daunting – I bought a plane ticket from a not-Southwest airline for the first time in probably 10+ years and dang it was confusing!! I’m still convinced I bought the ticket for the wrong date or something. This trip will be a few days in one major city and a few days in another and I am lucky that my travel partner likes to find hotels and deal with rental cars. Only thing I’ve done so far is look and see if there are any fun food and cocktail tours in the cities.
So, I hear you. Travel planning is not fun for some of us.
AnonInfinity
I also hate the planning part. One of the few areas where we really worked was that my ex husband LOVED planning. We had an arrangement where we’d both pick the destination, and then I’d tell him 1-2 things that I really really wanted to do there. He’d plan the entire rest of the vacation, and I’d either plan for those 1-2 things or (usually) tell the hotel/resort and coordinate their planning. Now that we’re divorced, I do miss having a trip planner. I tend to book the lodging (after much dread) and then kind of forget about it til a week out when I remember in a panic that I haven’t arranged anything to do. I’m considering a retreat/resort type vacation next time for this reason.
Anonymous
Nope, I am 100% right there with you. Give me a stressful deal on an impossible timeline at work and I feel confident that I know what I’m doing. Plan a trip? I am plagued by indecision fatigue and a few times I have been unable to sleep because of trying to make these decisions and worrying if I made the right ones. I also skip over travel posts and I find it stressful to read those (and I find trip adviser overwhelming). If it’s a wedding where there’s a date and location (or similar event), I am 100% there and the flight and hotel are booked before the ink on the RSVP card is dry. Also if it’s in a cool destination, I can expand from there a build a larger trip. But starting from scratch? Not my cup of tea. At all. Do I use points/miles or pay $ for a flight? Is it better to go direct or have a layover and save some money to put towards an activity? If I have a layover, that’s more time to get there, so am I missing out on something that’s a “can’t miss” by not taking the direct? When to go during the year? Splurge on a hotel or restaurants? Each decision eliminates so many other decisions and raises so many more questions. The issue I have is that I know you need to pick one of these factors (date, nice hotel vs. less nice hotel to fit other things into budget) but I never know what is the *right* decision to make out of all of these big determining factors. Honestly, I need to find someone who is just like “I have booked you a trip for the week of X. here is your packing list, just show up at the airport because your flight is at 11 on Tuesday. Enjoy.” But I haven’t found a travel agent who is willing to do that yet. They still want you to come up with a budget and a timeline and your input on activities and all that. I literally just want to hand someone a credit card and be told when to show up at the airport.
anon
No, you aren’t alone. I only started enjoying the planning when I dumped the logistics (hotels, plane tickets, dates) on DH; I research cool stuff we can see, and think about how the day might flow, where we might get tasty food, backup plans in case of bad weather.
anon
I like researching the activities, restaurants, etc. I bookmark them on Google maps. It’s quick to add bookmarks when I see or hear a new recommendation. Before the trip, we’ll pick a few things we really want to do, and I’ll make reservations. Once we’re at our destination, I like being able to pull up my phone and see “oh, there’s a cool bakery/bar/art gallery around the corner, let’s check it out.”
Anonymous
I plan just the week I will be gone, the destination and the hotel and then leave the planning of daily activities until I get there.
Anonymous
Eh, I just don’t take on a lot of these worries. I figure out a week that works for me. My kids miss anything that isn’t school, my cat is fine pats or no pats. That’s just anxiety and I refuse to let anxiety run my life for me.
Anon
Late to this but I’m on a short vacation myself right now in a European capital. I booked the flight and hotel and then showed up and have been winging it. People were saying “what are you going to do while you’re there?” Or “you must do a, b, and c while you’re there, and definitely hit x, y, and z restaurants”. And you know what, I didn’t do any of those things and everything is ok. I decided what to do once I got here, one day at a time, and I am having a great time. The hotel concierge has helped me a lot with things I can do same-day (even the things that OMG YOU HAVE TO BUY TICKETS IN ADVANCE kind of things, no, you don’t if you have a good concierge.)
No person can do All The Things in any place and it’s just really important to me not to be as scheduled in my free time as I am in my work life. So have a great time not working, wherever you go, and if your vacation starts to feel like work, well, you’re doing it wrong!
Anonymous
Do you have friends with whom you simply disagree on how to live life? For me it’s a friend who works at a non profit. If she was working there and happy, that’d be great. But it’s gotten to the point (because she tells me, “complains” about it etc.) where I feel like she is sacrificing her life and her financial well being for the cause of her non profit. Now my view in life is — do whatever you want. BUT when someone complains EVERY TIME we speak about their job, how awful their job is, how awful their boss is, finances etc., then my natural inclination is to say — why not move on? And yet when I say that it’s met with — the cause is important to me; you don’t understand — you sold out for money etc. And just generally it seems like her life is becoming more and more about changing the world, complaining about how everything under the sun is racism and holds back poor/black people etc. All of that is well and good, but my view is — don’t you have to look out for yourself first? This isn’t someone who comes from money or has a spouse with money and she lives in DC which has gotten expensive, hence the complaining about finances.
The Original ...
This is a total bad pairing for this conversation. A person whose beliefs become their life work IS putting the work ahead of themselves and always will in that role, nothing you say will change that. This kind of work pays horribly and requires so so much, nothing you say will change that. It is absolutely fair of them to feel burnt out or even angry that their very important work pays so little and requires so much. This isn’t a job for them, it’s their way of existing, which means there’ll never likely be a time when they’ll stop doing this work or leave for more money or lean out. Since the role won’t likely begin to pay better or require less, it means they’ll always be trading their life’s mission for pay/relaxation/etc. It means that’ll always be tough on them. If your response is to encourage them to work elsewhere or hush about it, you’re not the right person for them to talk with about this. This doesn’t mean you’re bad friend matches, necessarily, but they may never understand how you see pay as a vital aspect of choosing the work one does and you may never understand why someone can work so hard for so little pay/downtime. It can easily result in frustrations on both sides and feeling like the other doesn’t “get it”.”
PS Everything under the sun DOES play into race and holds back poorer people and people of other minority statuses. This isn’t an opinion, it’s literally the lack of equity and equality that exists in most countries/societies. If you see this as the person overbl0wing things or being silly, your value/experience systems may be too vastly different to understand not just the person’s career but also who they are fundamentally. Rolling your eyes at this or thinking it wrong is likely going to require either a change in perspective or maybe leaning out in a friendship where that person is so clear in their life’s work that they’ve given up pay/calm/everything because of the racial and minority injustices occurring.
(PS that doesn’t at all make anyone a bad person, it’s just a very different experience when one person has given all to a cause/mission and the other sees the same cause/mission as either optional or not nearly as big a deal as the other makes it out to be.)
Falstaff
+1, especially to the “PS.”
Another anon
In response to your PS, just because everything under the sun plays into race and holds back low income/minorities doesn’t mean that it’s not okay for OP to find it frustrating that this is all her friend wants to talk about.
I’ve had a couple friends in the past where their conversational topics constantly revolve around social justice issues and it does get old, in the same way that talking about any particular issue tends to get old (unless both people are into talking about it all the time).
UHU
Is she generally a negative-problem for every solution type of person? If yes, and you’re okay with that, just listen. If yes, and you’re not okay with that, lean out. If it’s just around this topic and she wants advice (doesn’t sound like it) maybe give a general solution (live in a different city, coupon, I’m not sure). If it’s just around this topic and she just wants to vent, and you’re okay listening to it, just let her go and give those supporting comments (that sucks, some people) then change the topic. BUT I think she’s also quite mean to you to tell you you sold out for money (unless you do specifically voice that/feel that way) because she’s positioning herself as better than you/more moral etc.. For me personally, people like this, I limit my time because, frankly, I find it boring.
Anon
I used to think I needed a job that would change the world. I thought any corporate type of job was selling out (for me), would be boring, have no passion, etc. Well, I was never able to get a job doing what I wanted and ended up in a corporate field I never thought I’d be in. After hating it for a couple years, I finally landed at the right company with the right people and my views have shifted. I now think that the security and overall well-being that I get from this job has made me a better person to go out and volunteer and be active with the causes I care about.
Anonymous
I mean, I wonder that all the time on this board/with our demographic. I work in boutique law and I hear the attorney in the office beside mine crying at least twice a month. She has two young kids, nanny troubles, a husband who seems a bit clueless (just from what I can hear through the walls), and works a million hours a week. For what? No really, for what? Prestige? Who cares? Money? At her level, she could go anywhere else and be comfortable. She never sees her children but desperately wants to. She’s smart and talented but doubts it. My guess is that deep down she’s trying to prove something to someone or conquer insecurities; I wish for her sake she could let that all go and take a job where she could get a decent night’s sleep and see her children before they’re grown.
Anonymous
Maybe she enjoys a nice house? Or good benefits? Or 19k in retirement per year? Or planning to pay 100% for her kids’ college and med school? I don’t understand why people on this board so easily discount money.
anon
someone who works in boutique law with good credentials can likely find a good paying job that would not make her cry so frequently.
Anonymous
Because most of them have it and aren’t seriously considering giving it up. Much easier to tell others you don’t need it.
Anon
The thing about non-profits (as a veteran) is that they really require so much of your time and energy for very little in return. I really hope you can be more sympathetic towards your friend and stop thinking that she should just get another job in another field like jobs grow on trees. And PS, when you work in non-profits you truly see the injustices present in our society and every institution.
Anonymous
Never worked in a non profit myself but find the above to be true from friends who’ve gone in. If they’ve ended up staying more than 1 year, they’ve really ending up giving of themselves — working ALL the time, for small paychecks and no perks. From the outside rationally, when a non profit friend tells me she worked all weekend or 6 hours of a day she planned to take off, internally I’m always screaming — why?? That’s what we used to do in biglaw but are you forgetting the 300k comp in biglaw?? But reality is — they become all about it, the cause matters, and they start to see the injustice as something to fight against. And if these things don’t happen – then people tend to leave in 1-2 years because they’re thinking along the lines of — I’m not working 60 hours/week for 85k or 100k.
Anonymous
Sounds shallow but I have no interest in spending tons of time with someone who says I sold out for money. They can go save the world and live in their walk up studio for the privilege of fighting “racism” and I can go work my corporate job and drive home in my luxury car, and we can be polite when we see each other at a party.
Anon
Wow, you are a jerk.
nona
Eh – Anon has a point. The “friend” holds OP in contempt. Why would you want to be friends with someone who thinks they’re better than you are?
Anon
Not OP, but I don’t think it would be jerky to want to lean out from a friend who disses my values in every conversation. If nothing is ever enough for her cause, then let her be constantly negative somewhere else.
Anon
It’s jerky to put “racism” in quotes and brag about their luxury car as if they’re better than someone who doesn’t have one.
Spotter
For what it’s worth, I thin you’re a troll trying to distract people into a debate on racial and economic inquitites. Guys, don’t fall for it and ignore that part.
If you’re not a troll, I’ll say that what your friend does with her life is her choice and her business. Some people do feel a pull to dedicate themselves to a cause, whether or not it causes them discomfort (how do you think big social justice change makers get along – like this). The ideologies by which she lives her life are her choices alone and have nothing to do with you and you can’t and shouldn’t denigrate her for that choice. What you can do is ask her not to complain about the same thing over and over again, no matter the topic.
Monday
Maybe it’s similar to having a friend with kids when you don’t have kids. The friend is stressed, financially strained, and burnt out due to having kids, and she may complain about it a lot. It’s easy to think “well you chose to have kids! You could have skipped it!” but it’s more complicated than that. The friend made a decision, and sticks by it, but is also upset about the sacrifices involved. Both are true.
I do agree that when complaining about any subject is overwhelming a friendship, it’s fair to either ask for change or initiate lots of distractions.
Anonymous
Yes I do. And the ones I’m friends with are self-centered bores who do nothing but whine.
Anonymous
Eek! Aren’t! I’m not friends with whiny people!
Anon
I complained a lot about my job. I grew up in an environment where complaining was a normal way to make conversation.
It took someone close to me telling me firmly about how my constant complaining was impacting them to get me to stop complaining so much. It may sound ridiculous, but I really had no idea that I was impacting others and it really helped me to hear that clearly.
Anon
Honestly, some people are complainers. It’s not about her exact job situation – she could probably work at another non-profit with an amazing boss and still find a way to complain. Yes, it’s really stressful working in certain fields, especially when the compensation is low, but anyone who complains as a hobby is going to find that their family and friends get really fed up with it. I would say something like “hey, I know things have been rough, but it seems like the main topic of conversation every time we see each other is how much you hate your job and I’d hate for all of our interactions to be negative. Can we talk about something else? How was your date with ___?” If that doesn’t work, I’d just hang out with her way less.
Worry about yourself
+1
I wish people could be more open about this, instead of just fading out on someone for being too negative. Some people like to vent, and some people get so addicted to venting they either do it too much without realizing it, or it becomes the only way they know how to socialize. If you care about this person and your friendship, the best way to save it is to kindly shut it down, and think of ways your time together could be used to take her mind off the situation.
Anonnona
My closest friends and I complain to each other a lot. We talk about our difficulties and insecurities as well as our excitements, etc. We go deep because we trust each other. Sometimes we are in a season where everything seems negative. Maybe those are problems like your friend is complaining about and maybe they are complaints about not getting as big of a raise as expected or not liking the color of the tile in your high-end remodel. It feels nice to unload these thoughts and feelings on someone you can trust. It sounds like you are not that person for your friend. That’s okay. We all have different people who play different roles in our lives. Based on your post, it sounds like you are both judging each other negatively for your priorities right now. Maybe take a step back from that level of intimacy with your friend.
Anon
I work in a field that literally saves lives but pays poorly.
It’s a calling. You can’t just walk away from it. You see just how bad people have it and you can’t tear yourself away. Sure, I’d love to make more money, or not get woken up at 3am or not work an entire day in the pouring rain but I can’t not help people
Anonymous
Can I ask what you do? I assumed you’d say dr. since you mentioned literally saving lives — but then why are you out in the rain? Just curious.
Anon
Much delayed response, but I work in disaster response.
Search and rescue, providing emergency food/medical care/shelters etc.
Money Amongst Friends
How much attention do you pay to income levels when making plans with friends? I’m noticing that, in my long-term friend group and in subsections of it, there are huge differences, not just in background/family money/DINK/etc. situations but within individual incomes… some earn 6 figures, others barely bring in 40k/yr, others work minimum wage. It can result in struggles/stresses because those with the most don’t obviously want to offer to pay for everyone but want to do things those with the least can’t afford. Those with the least feel crummy having to say what they can’t afford or feel left out if they can’t afford to join. Even things like eating out and splitting the bill equally can be tough when someone are budgeting closely and others throw an app for the table or extra fun drink into things. How do you and your friends handle things so no one is hurt emotionally or financially?
Anon
Most in my friend group know the rough income bracket of one another based on job (we don’t discuss incomes explicitly) and we’re considerate to plan things that seem reasonable for the lowest income bracket represented, or to give a long planning time for them to save up for something big/expensive (like a concert ticket). If budgets are really tight, the more affluent friends host dinner or brunch at their home where no one but the host is expected to pay or we attend free city sponsored events (summer concert series, yoga in the park, etc.)
IMO there is no “we want to do an expensive thing so we’ll pay for you” there is all around consideration for what people can and can’t do – we consider the same thing with time. My teacher friends know I can’t meet at 4:30 pm for a happy hour as a lawyer and I know I can’t expect them to do vacations during the school year.
Anon
Just had this issue on a group trip – we ended up taking pictures of receipts and splitting things based on who used what (so the girl who didn’t drink wasn’t funding our booze, the friend who is a teacher in a HCOL city wasn’t funding my drinks (since I make more than her)).
I think the best bet is to have options – maybe you have friends you do fancy dinners with, but you can also try to find free/lower cost things that everyone can enjoy (e.g. parks, movies, bowling, minigolf, a beach day if that’s accessible to you), etc. Also always fun to try cheap but delicious sandwich shops, taco stands, etc.
Anon
Yes to everything in your second paragraph. With biglaw/finance friends I eat out at fancy places on occasion, but with everyone else I keep a stash of different craft beers at my place, and have a low key evening hanging out with pizza/pasta and beer. Or mini barbecue and beer. We throw in a fancy dessert and Nespresso coffees and Netflix, and have a blast for less than $20 pp.
Anon
I have never split a restaurant bill equally. Everyone pays for what they ordered. If I order an app, I pay for it, even if others shared it with me.
Anon
I go this route, too. In my experience, “let’s split everything equally”requires absolutely everyone at the table to be mindful about their orders, refills, and courses. Most people are either super diligent about that, or just…not. It only takes one thoughtless (or cheap and jerky) person to spoil it, and that’s before you even get into health or moral issues (i.e., Jan doesn’t drink and doesn’t think she should have to chip in for the three bottles of wine, or cousin Eddie always tries to stiff the waitress). Nope. You ordered it, you pay for it. It’s cleaner and simpler.
Laura B
+1. Splitting equally is way more awkward than paying for what each person ordered, IMO. I don’t want to have to think about what another person is going order and order try to “equally” because we’re splitting the check.
Anon
+1. I am not a big drinker, and don’t normally order a drink when I go out with friends cause I’m trying to save money and the cost/benefit ratio isn’t sufficient. If a so-called friend required me to split the cost of things I didn’t order, it would really impact my desire to go out with them
Anon
I struggle with this in my group – I’m the one who is making pennies compared to my doctor and lawyer friends. In all honestly, they do fancy things with their fellow doctors and lawyers. It kind of sucks, but I get it. You want to spend time with people who are socially “equal” to you. When we eat out, we never split the bill equally, everyone pays their share.
blueberries
I try to a) get a sense of budgets and b) suggest activities that will work with everyone’s budget. I’ve been on both sides, budget-wise, and hated when people would plan activities that were outside of my budget, but expected me to attend.
There are so many great free/cheap activities, like hiking or going for walks or hanging in a park. Meeting up at a place where folks order separately is also helpful. If I want to do something that might not be welcome with everyone’s budget or that folks feel an obligation to attend, I host.
Jo March
My friend groups consists of high and low earners, as well as some vegetarians/vegans and those that don’t drink alcohol. I can’t drink alcohol for health reasons,so often end up with a lower bill than my dining companions. I earn enough that I could afford to split every bill evenly, but it feels unfair over time. I tend to split the bill evenly when it’s a birthday dinner for a friend (we usually split the birthday gal/guy’s meal anyway) and sometimes I get a dessert that’s of similar value to my friends’ wine so it doesn’t matter. Other times, we do the math. The key thing that’s worked in my friend group is not calculating down to the penny. We do the rough mental math and as long as everyone’s comfortable with paying a portion that’s within a few dollars of their fair share, we don’t belabor it. We’ve also been friends for long enough that the same friends have not always been the highest/lowest earners or spenders and what has kept us all happy over time is that whoever’s meal was the most expensive does not assume that the bill will be split evenly and often we only do so if the the person who didn’t get a second drink/appetizer/expensive meal says they’re fine with that.
Lastly, I have an expensive hobby that some of my friends share. I have accepted over the years that even though they enjoy it, I’m the only one willing to spend as much on it, so I have learned how to enjoy it alone and only go with them when they initiate.
Basically, I’ve found that friendships across income levels only work with everyone is honest about their financial priorities and accepts that not everyone else is on the same page.
Anonnona
For us, with dinners, we usually pay for what we order separately (either split the bill or Venmo later) if the prices are hugely varied. If I order an app for the table, I put it on my bill. I don’t order an app for the table if I can’t afford it or don’t want to pay for it. We are in the middle of the income brackets of our friends. For expensive things, we either decline if we don’t want to prioritize it or we make it work financially. We also tend to be planners so we plan inexpensive trips and outings that everyone can afford usually, but if we want to go on a big expensive trip, we just plan it and ask if people want to go. If so, great; if not (for whatever reason), that’s cool too.
Anon
I’m surprised how many people split up the bill based on consumption. We almost never do it. It’s probably because my friends sort order similarly to each other, so we just split the bill evenly.
Another anon
I’m surprised how many people split up the bill based on consumption. We almost never do it. It’s probably because my friends sort order similarly to each other, so we just split the bill evenly.
Lawyer in the Group
My SO is in a creative field and so are most of our friends, I’m in big law. We keep that in mind as we make plans and account for the lowest budget in the group (we know generally where we all are $ wise). We also don’t openly share or Instagram (we are in that age bracket, sorry) when we go to certain super pricey/new places in town that everyone knows cost $$$$$$ because we always want to make sure our home is inclusive to everyone and I don’t want anyone comparing their story to my highlight reel.
However, I love being generous, so I often pay for the tab at the end of the night or the meal if friends come over and we get the meal/takeout. We read the situation though, because we don’t want our friends to not hang out with us because they feel bad that we are paying all the time. So, if it’s fancy or pricey, we’ll pay for it as a treat because we are generally the ones doing the inviting, but if it’s just a regular meal at a normal price restaurant, each couple/friend pays their own, even apps that were shared by the table. I didn’t realize people still split tabs, that’s a lot more awkward (I drank, you didn’t, three apps vs. none, etc.)–reminds me of that episode of Gilmore Girls with Marty not having enough money to pay $75 for his share of the meal.
Anonymous
Has anyone had good luck spot cleaning a black nylon bag? One of those packets of grape jelly exploded all over the inside of my beloved MZ Wallace crossbody. Sigh.
BB
I don’t know about that bag specifically, but generally nylon will hold up well to cleaning. I would try water + whatever cleaning fluid you are using on a small interior spot of your bag first to make sure it doesn’t affect anything. But honestly, you should be able to hand wash the whole nylon bag with some dish soap and be totally fine.
Talk to me about facials please
What are facials good for? If I have blackheads? If I want a deep exfoliation? I’m 39 and take care of my skin, just not sure if I should consider facials either for relaxation or a “boost” for my face. Thanks in advance!
Anonymous
They are good for both blackheads and deep exfoliation, but for me the real benefit is the relaxation. I get a facial about once per season as a little refresh. Your skin will feel and look amazing afterwards, but it doesn’t last long and still depends on the state of your skin to begin with and your own skincare routine to maintain. I find I have a nice glow for a few days after but that’s it. On a costs-benefits analysis I would say it’s totally not worth it if you’re looking for a lasting visible skin change. The real treat is the massages involved and the relaxation – it feels heavenly and that coupled with the fresh feeling of your face afterward is worth it!
Please don't talk to me
I could use some reassurance that I’m not totally crazy and advice on how to prevent something like this from happening again.
Without going into too much detail, I tried to be polite in what I thought was a work-related conversation with a stranger (but in retrospect should have realized was not work-related in his mind). He asked, and I (stupidly, I know) gave him my work contact information. Now he won’t stop contacting me with requests, invitations, inappropriate jokes, etc. I’ve tried to deescalate and disengage (and am not responding at all now), and I’m on edge waiting for the next aggressive message. Part of me doesn’t want to totally block him so that I have a way of knowing in case he continues or ramps up. There’s a decent chance I’ll run into him again, but not in a work context (think: our offices are near each other and I often see him while running lunch errands).
I realize that I’m somewhat being paranoid, and he’s probably harmless IRL. I also know that I need to get better about just saying no to people. Any advice or scripts to prevent this situation from happening again?
Anonymous
Block him and never give a stranger your contact info and don’t talk to strangers
CHL
Have you been explicit to tell him not to contact you again? Also, if you have the type of building with security, you may just want to check in to ensure that he doesn’t just “Show up” one day.
OP
I guess that’s what I do next, thanks all. I generally have a hard time with confronting/rejecting people, so it’s helpful to hear this advice. And that’s a great idea on building security, thanks.
And I work in an outreach role in a networking-heavy place, so I pretty regularly give my card to strangers (there just isn’t usually a physical nexus to a place I’m frequently at, so I don’t have to worry about running into them repeatedly). I’m genuinely asking for advice about what I should say when some asks for my contact info in an ostensibly work-related conversation that lets me leave the physical interaction without it escalating.
UHU
I think you could say something like, I’ve run out of cards, why don’t you give me your info.
Inspired by Hermione
Block that MF already.
Belts, walkie-talkies, and pregnant bellies
Does anyone have a suggestion for a simple black belt that would look equally nice with a cocktail dress as with a pair of jeans? Preferably no gold hardware. I’m five months pregnant and I have a job where I regularly walk around with a walkie-talkie or belt pack and headset. My maternity pants have too much elastic for me to just clip the walkie to my waistband (like I did pre pregnancy) because the weight of the walkie pulls my pants down. Also we have a formal event later this month and I’m thinking my best bet would be a cocktail dress with a belt (Pre pregnancy I would just wear a skirt and top combo to this gala.). I am not at all a belt person, and I’d rather just buy one to take me through this pregnancy since I likely won’t wear it afterwards.
Belt suggestions, or any other suggestions for carrying my walkie or belt pack on me?
Also- I have a rent the runway subscription so if anyone has rented maternity formal wear that they loved (that might be condusive to belting), I’d love to hear suggestions!
Thanks!
Anon
Check Banana, Gap, and Nordstrom.
Anonymous
Why not put the walkie talkie on a lanyard?
Anon
When I was a corrections officer, I got a heavy duty black leather belt from Hot Topic to wear my gear on. The men’s gear belts at the law enforcement stores were too big/thick to fit through the belt loops of my women’s pants. It looks like a plain black belt with a silver metal buckle but it was heavy duty enough to hold a radio, cuffs, shackles and an emergency call box. I just checked the hot topic website for you and I don’t see the same one I wore.
However, a lot more women are detectives now and have to wear gear with suits instead of uniforms. I bet you could find a solid belt at either a law enforcement store or a gun store that won’t obviously be for that purpose. They are meant to be discrete for under cover work and hold up the weight.
OP
Thanks. I find this info fascinating and practical!
Anon
I would just go with the functional/tactical aesthetic…it is what it is. What that in mind, I’m thinking of a simple holder on a shoulder strap, worn either crossbody or like a shoulder bag: https://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Radio-Holder-Shoulder-Strap/dp/B00N95NJBK I’m sure there are cheaper ones out there. A radio manufacturer carries a 1-3/4″ wide black leather belt to accommodate a case or clip, but that’s a bit much. I can’t help but wonder what the producers at the Met Gala wore :)
OP
I wonder about how they wear their gear for the Met Gala too! I had a friend who worked the Oscars and she said she clipped her belt pack the the back of her dress, and she always chose dresses that were low cut in the back for this reason.
PolyD
Also Macy’s. Kohls. JC Penney.
Anon
Maybe a simple cellphone crossbody?
https://www.target.com/p/everyday-essentials-cellphone-crossbody-bag-a-new-day-153/-/A-54222842
Anonymous
I got one recently from Uniqlo. Bucket is kind of gunmetal gray
OP
Thanks for the ideas. I’m intrigued by the cross body options- might see if I can find one in store to try out.
Need inspiration
What are some good movies or TV shows to watch about characters taking “inner journeys”?
The only one I can think of right now is “The Wizard of Oz”.
Kat G
Joe vs the Volcano! :)
Senior Attorney
Maniac on Netflix with Emma Stone and Jonah Hill. It’s very “out there” but yes — definitely inner journeys.
Also Russian Doll on Netflix.
Idea
Helpful. Thanks.
Anonymous
Also, being John malkovich
Anonymous
Much belated reply, but hopefully you subscribed for comments. A few years ago there was a season of a drama on one of the network’s about a cop who was leading two different lives at the same time on alternate days. It was interesting. I don’t want to spoil the ending, but trust me that it fits your theme. Some googling may lead you to the name of it
EB
I have this shirt and it is one of my favorites! Can’t wait until I have this baby and can wear it again.
Help me find a bodysuit for yoga
I’m getting into yoga more but would like to have my boobs, butt and belly hang out less. Are bodysuits a thing? The Universal Standard one looks great but is $84 and has no shelf bra. Where do I find these things; my GoogleFu is failing me. Size 16. Thanks!
Mrs. Jones
I’ve done yoga for many years and have never seen anyone wear a bodysuit. Most people wear yoga tops/athletic bras and yoga shorts/capris.
Anonymous
+1 I’ve practiced for over 10 years and the only person I’ve ever seen wearing a bodysuit (besides instagram yogis) is one instructor one time. I have the issue of my boobs hangout out as well, so I try to find yoga tops with higher necklines in the front to hold em in. Lululemon has some good one specifically for this.
Falstaff
Maybe you would have better luck searching for a leotard.
Anonnona
My guess would be gymnastic type leotards would be the closest thing to a bodysuit for sports. But I’ve found that high waisted compression leggings keep my belly and bottom covered and “in”. High neck sports bras do a good job on top. Then whatever tank top or shirt you like to cover any gap between.
EM84
Been doing yoga for 10+ years and happily recycled my running outfits. The high-waist leggings, light-compressions sports bra and a fitted tank top kept all parts in place. Bonus – the fitted tank top does not slide down even in headstand positions.
To your question – a few of my classmates wear one- piece outfits, so not out of place (Europe) to me.