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Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. This week of TPS reports come to you from another recently pregnant lady: Work That Bump blogger, mother, lawyer, and overachieving chick, K.
I am a big fan of interesting blazers. For today's TPS, I first went in search of a jacket similar to this one, which I have and love. When my husband first saw it, he said, “You're going to wear THAT to WORK?” But with a black pencil skirt and black pumps, it is perfectly appropriate for my law firm. Anyway, I couldn't find anything similar to that one (the closest I could find were this one at Saks and this one at Zappos), but this jacket from J. Crew still struck my fancy. I think it would look particularly nice with a cobalt blue skirt (channeling Kat today) and some black pumps. There's also a matching skirt if you want to make a suit of it. It's on sale for $148 (although you can barely call that a sale since it's usually just $10 more). Herringbone Linen Jacket
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Issue with an old friend
TJ – After reading that recent article about what makes a happy marriage in The Atlantic, I realized that one of the behaviors in the article (passive constructive responding) actually applies to a close friend of mine. This friend has always had a tendency to talk about herself a lot, but it wasn’t until I read this article that I could put a name on how she responds to news from me. Whenever I say something positive about myself, such as “just got home, I love my new job!” or “I just had the most fun day at the concert!”, she’ll almost always respond with “that’s cool!” or “that’s awesome!” She almost never asks any questions or expresses any interest in the subject beyond that; she also rarely starts a conversation by asking about the other person (other than the occasional “what’s up?”). It’s been frustrating me a lot and we’ve drifted apart (only partly because of it). Would you guys recommend saying something to her about this? I wonder if it makes sense to try to get someone you’re not in a romantic relationship with to change their behavior like that. On the one hand, she may not realize she’s doing that, but on the other, she’s been fairly self-involved for a long time and I’m not sure if that natural tendency will just override any effort she makes. I’d like to improve the long friendship if I can – any thoughts? For what it’s worth, I’m trying to think of ways that I could be a better friend as well, but for now, this is definitely an issue I’ve long identified and only recently put a name to.
Wildkitten
Have you drifted too far apart to say “Look at this super interesting article in the Atlantic”?
Issue with an old friend
Unfortunately, I doubt she’d even read it – she’s also one of those people who won’t read articles or click on links you send her. She’ll say “cool, I’ll check out the e-mail you sent” and then never do it (or if she does, she never mentions it again).
Wildkitten
Then I’d cut your losses and just drop it and her.
Anon
Really?! That seems extreme. It’s not like she’s not engaging at all or saying things that are mean. Maybe the mode of communication isn’t working – eg she’s not an email/text person. I’d never just toss someone aside I cared enough about to call a friend without trying to communicate.
Sydney Bristow
Can you talk to her about it? You wouldn’t necessarily have to send her the article, but you could describe what struck you about it. Perhaps you could approach it as something you’d like to work on too and see if she notices something about the way that you interact that you could work on too.
I sent the article to my fiance yesterday and we had a long talk about it last night. Of course, it helped that he had read the article, but it was nice to talk about it and both come away with things that we’d like to work on and understand a little better how we each view the responses of the other person.
Issue with an old friend
I had a nice talk with my fiance too – it’s really a great article and it brings up a lot to talk about. It definitely made me realize some of our strengths (which fortunately we seem to have) and also some of our weaknesses/areas to improve. It’s funny, though, because after I thought about it in the context of my relationship, I almost instantly recognized the passive constructive responding behavior in my friend. It irritates me so much with her and we don’t talk that often – I can’t imagine what it would be like to deal with in a significant other on a regular basis. Maybe I can try your suggestion of bringing it up to her and framing it as something for me to work on, although I feel like the things I need to work on in my relationship with her aren’t necessarily the same things covered in the article.
tesyaa
Does it irritate you because you really care about her and want to be close to her, or because you feel like she’s slighting you?
Face Value
I read that article and I realized that I take a lot of things at face value. So if my husband says “what do you think of X,” I might easily say “I don’t much care for X” and leave it at that. Maybe I’m used to a say-what-you-mean / mean-what-you-say mindset, but it never dawned on me that “what do you think about X” means anything but that (so I’d never take it not at face value as a way to start talking about stuff in general).
I think I’m from a different planet (or my mind wiring is).
First Year Anon
I am like you and I have friends like your friend. I think there are some people who don’t ask a lot of questions because they assume that if you wanted to talk about something, you would talk about it. That’s what she does- she tells you stories about herself without you asking. It might be that she’s selfish, but I’m not getting the vibe that she is. She might just be a friend you have to be a bit more bold with and just tell your stories to. Now, if she ignores you or doesn’t seem to care after you tell her, that is a different issue.
And honestly, unless I point someone to a specific article I really want them to read, I wouldn’t take offense if she didn’t read everything you send her. I send my friends lots of things and they read them often, but not always.
Issue with an old friend
This is spot on – my friend is definitely partly like that (I’ve always had to be more bold telling my stories, which is naturally kind of hard for me). The problem is that even when I tell stories, I get “that’s great!” and nothing more. The problem has always been there a little bit, but it’s definitely been worse over the last year. I don’t want to nag her (“don’t you want to know more about my news?”) since it just seems so forced. How can you “make” someone be more interested in your life? I try to express interest in hers and ask thoughtful questions and I know I could always improve, but I’m not sure if she wants the same. She says she values the friendship and does make efforts in her own way sometimes, but her actions do sometimes/often speak otherwise.
And tesya, I want to preserve this friendship if I can. It’s been frustrating lately, but we’ve been friends for over 20 years through good times and bad. I definitely don’t want to throw it away, but I’m worried that we may be drifting away.
tesyaa
I think you answered your own question. She’s not that interested in your life (anymore), and unfortunately, there’s no way to make her. Many friendships do drift apart for a variety of reasons. I hope you can salvage yours, but it probably makes sense to focus on friendships that are more rewarding, or making new friends, or just spending time doing activities you enjoy.
Moon Moon
Sorry this rubs me the wrong way, why do you assume that not asking questions means she’s not interested in your life? Why is pressing people for information the only way to show interest? I absolutely hate it when people ask me personal questions and it makes me shut down and uncomfortable, see below.
Anonymous
This. And to expand a bit, I am interested in whether my friends are happy, so I want to know generally how things are going and if they are doing well. I am not super interested in the specific fact that the automatic stapler at their new job is what makes them happy.
Also, I can’t stand it when one of my friends sends me links (along with 50 other people that she doesn’t even have the etiquette to bcc rather than paste all into the ‘to’ field) that are totally inapplicable to me. Maybe that’s why she doesn’t read them. But you also say that she is self-involved and talks about herself all the time–have you considered that sending these stories and links are your form of self-involvement/talking about yourself?
First Year Anon
Yah, I understand the frustration on your part, because I do always ask lots of questions of others (and have been told by several friends I’m an awesome listener and wow I care so much, and how much they appreciate it) and I guess I’m not bold enough, or potentially secure enough to just assume someone wants to listen to me if they don’t ask. It’s a problem I have generally in my life- I wonder if you feel the same way. I.e., if I don’t hear a positive response, I assume the worst, unless I know someone very, very well then I know for sure it’s nothing to fret about. It’s not a good habit, I am working on it.
Maybe she just won’t be the friend you tell everything too? I have some friends who respond with great interest at everything I tell them, and we are very close because of that. I also have other friends I definitely consider good friends who I know I can turn to in crisis, but they just aren’t willing or able to provide that support. It’s okay if friendships vary in intensity.
Whenever I feel like I’m drifting, sometimes I send a cute card in the mail to remind them I am thinking of them and to make their day better.
Moon Moon
This may make me the villain here, but I’m a lot like your friend. It’s just inherent in my personalty/upbringing — I volunteer stories about myself that I want to share, and I actually hate it when people press me by asking questions, it makes me uncomfortable. I’m introverted (but not shy) and come from a WASPy family.
So I never try to press others nor ask them questions, because my natural instincts say that is going to make THEM feel uncomfortable, and assume if they want to share something with me, they will. It’s not like your friend is dismissing your news, she shows enthusiasm and interest. So coming from someone who is naturally the same way, and generally wishes people ask me less questions about my life.
So without talking to her about it, she probably has no idea that her behavior is seen as “bad” to you. Honestly it’s just two sides to the same coin – both are just different ways of reacting to people. For you to have her act in your way and approach life like you, she will have to fundamentally change her behavior, but for you to enjoy her friendship, you just need to change your reaction to her behavior. Think about which is easier.
Issue with an old friend
But how is saying “that’s great!” showing enthusiasm and interest in my news? That’s not just the intro to her response – that’s her ONLY response. This has included big moments, such as getting engaged and getting a new job. I had to follow up with “do you have any questions about my new company?” for the latter to even have a basic discussion about it. I’m not saying she needs to pepper me with questions, but “that’s cool!” just completely shuts down the conversation.
Moon Moon
Yeah, I just have a hard time seeing it as not enthusiastic. In the article, it gives responses like “ok.” or “don’t bother me I’m reading.” I would love to get a response like “That’s great!” and “That’s so cool!” But maybe that’s just me. I don’t see that as shutting down the conversation at all.
I’m also assuming this is on email or text message. If she says “That’s great!” in person and then just stares at you with a blank face, that’s a different story than “That’s great!” with a hug and expectant face, or a cheers of the drinks you are having together.
First Year Anon
Moon Moon- I agree that texting and even emailing does make this difficult…people react way differently on text than they would in real life. Reason #494302 why I hate texting!
But, if that’s the only response to an engagement announcement- yes I would be annoyed (FWIW, I’ve never been engaged)
Anonymous
I really think you are being the self-involved one to think that anyone cares about your 401k plan or floor plan of your new office. She expressed enthusiasm that you are happy, possibly says that she is happy for you, do you want her to request the employee manual so she knows how often you’re drug tested?
Attila
It may or may not indicate that she’s not so interested in your life. People have really different ways of communicating, and instead of talking to her about the article and hoping she gets the hint, I would be direct about what you want. Something to the tune of, “hey, I really love it when you ask me questions (or follow up questions) about what’s going on with me. It’s just how I connect, and it makes me feel like you’re interested in my life. Could you do that more often?” That way, it doesn’t sound like you’re criticizing her. You could also throw in that you love hearing about her life too, just to engender good feelings.
I don’t know what’s going on with her, but I find that usually the person with whom I’m frustrated really didn’t know what I wanted or thought of things really different way. Maybe she’s not interested and/or won’t change, but I’d give her the chance first without expecting her to intuit your needs.
Differing opinions
Just a thought – is it possible that you guys have fallen into a rut where (1) you think she’s not engaging, but (2) she thinks you are bragging? Asking “do you have any questions about my new company?” – seems incredibly forced/directive at an adult regarding how to have a conversation, and even as a question asker, I’d probably shut down after hearing that question.
Playing devil’s advocate – if she posted here, would she say something like: “Friend of 20 years is constantly texting me about how great and amazing her life is, which I acknowledge, but she never asks more detailed questions about [guy I’ve been seeing, divorce I’m going through, sick parents/dog/child, really tough job]?”
I’ve fallen into these negative patterns before, and really, all that breaks the cycle is sitting down with no expectations beyond catching up on what’s going on in her life. If you really want to preserve the relationship, maybe just find a time where you both can sit in a neutral place, and you let her open up about what’s going on in her life.
Alternatively, you guys can still be friends, just don’t look to her for validation/support. I have friends like this, and the relationship vastly improved/conversation flowed far more easily after I stopped trying to force them to do something they obviously didn’t want to do (in your case, act as a cheerleader/support system). I think you’ll both feel less resentful if you just naturally re-direct the role she plays in your life – doesn’t have to be a conversation, just a subtle change on your part.
January
I feel like Moon Moon, here — if you told me (via text) that you got a new job, I might just say, “that’s great!” I think texting is awkward, anyway, and I don’t like using text for extended conversations, so I’m probably not going to engage that much. Like some of the other commenters, I’m a little puzzled by some of your expectations… if you texted me to say, “just got home, love my new job!,” I would probably say, “That’s great!” and depending on what I was doing at that time, I might not have anything more to say.
anon
Sorry but if you aren’t asking people questions about their experiences, you aren’t being a very good friend or conversationalist. I don’t care if you’re introverted- if you want to have successful relationships and make people feel valued, you have to express interest in their lives beyond “oh nice” or “that sounds great.” Anyone who has told you otherwise is wrong.
Moon Moon
I’m not talking about “oh nice” or “that sounds great” but instead a hugely enthusiastic text of “That’s Great!” that the OP noted, complete with exclamation points. Also, I’m in a different field that includes a very high level security clearance, so I can’t really talk about my work at all.
Also, similar to the poster above, I hate texting. Hate it. With the fire of a thousand suns. I try to avoid having any sort of text message conversation back and forth if at all possible — has the OP thought about calling and/or getting together with this person for news? Usually if someone has news to share with me, and sends me a text, I will respond with “That’s great!” with “Lets get together to celebrate” or “I owe you a drink the next time I see you”
LT IT
This. I used to have an aunt who was very self-involved and it was hard to be around her. She always wanted to show you all the stuff she had bought (and would sometimes leave the prices on so you can see how $$ is was) but if you ever tried to show her your new item of clothing or whatever, she would just brush you off. It was very frustrating so I feel for the OP. I would try to talk to her and explain how you feel. Maybe she genuinely doesn’t understand what she’s doing. Maybe she does but she doesn’t care how if makes you feel and if that’s the case, then you can move on sans guilt.
Ellen
Yay! I agree with this po’st! I think that some peeople are talker’s and other’s are listener’s. Personaly, I am a listener more then a talker. So if someone say’s something I will alway’s respond with at least something SHORT and sweet, then if I want to expand, I can, but do NOT have to.
BTW, Kat, this is a beautiful herringbone jacket! I could NOT, however, walk in to work w/it b/c I would sweat up the white, or a pidgeon would surely find me and poop on the white. They think it is like pooping in the river, but it is worse when it is on you. FOOEY!
I walked in today and it was sweatey out, but I got alot of step’s in b/c I stopped at GCT and got a YUMMY smoothie for the rest of the walk. I think I finally have my tuchus down to a size 2, and will try on my batheing suit this weekend. Butch want’s me to go to the Hamton’s with him, and mabye I will, but I do NOT want him grabbeing at me. DOUBEL FOOEY! Men think that b/c you go out with them that they can be grabbey, but I say NO grabbeing w/o my consent. Dad still want’s to meet him, but I told him not until after the 4th of July. YAY!!!!
Pink
I noticed that one of my college friends (after college) has developed a habit of asking lots of questions to show interest. At first it drove me crazy because I kept feeling like I was on an interview/interrogation. She also started asking lots of questions about ‘asian american culture’ which also annoyed me. But then I remind myself that this is her way of engaging and try to turn the questions back on her.
Anne Shirley
I don’t really think it’s your place to try and fix her. Nor do I think it has any chance of success. How about trying to change what you’re looking for ? Ok so this friend is passive. But isn’t it kinda nice to have someone reliably constructive who doesn’t engage you on every detail?
I mean, you say “I got a new job!” She says “that’s great ”
You let it hang and then say “do you have any questions ” but you could just as easily respond with “it is great! The firm is fantastic.”
Differing opinions
Agree with this. People will play different roles in your life. She’s telling you what role she wants to play, which is not as the engager of your great news. For instance, I have a very dear friend who is my go-to activity partner, but she isn’t really that interested in kids. So, I call her when I’m ready for some kind of outdoor adventure, but I don’t call her with my son’s potty training successes.
MNF
+1 to this comment and Differing opinions above. (why can’t I reply up there?)
Bewitched
I read (skimmed) most of the comments and there’s some good advice there, but if it were me, rather than giving her the article, I’d say “I feel like we aren’t as close as we used to be. I miss you and miss how we used to do X, Y together or talk about A, B”. First, this should start the real conversation you want-how do you make your friendship closer? Second, if she say she doesn’t know what you are talking about, then you can offer up your recent experiences as an example. You can directly say, when I try to tell you about what I’ve been up to (job, concert), you don’t really respond that much and the conversation just ends. I don’t need the conversation to always be about me, but I love that we used to be able to chat on the phone or go to brunch and catch up, and now it seems like our calls are only a few minutes long (or whatever). I miss how things used to be. I think that dialogue would be much better than sending an article and expecting her to understand what you picked up from it and how you think it’s relevant to your relationship. Just my two cents.
Issue with an old friend
Thanks, Bewitched – this sounds perfect for my situation since we did used to be so close and had no problem making conversation, even on days where I felt it was more focused on her (and other days, she may have said the same about me). Framing the conversation that way might be the ticket.
Thanks to everyone who offered constructive feedback (and to the drug test poster – really?). I think it’s quite possible we’re just going to drift apart or that I should look for normal conversation elsewhere. I don’t think it’s anywhere near the case where I’m bombarding her with boring news or sending her dozens of links she can’t possibly read, but I’ll certainly stay aware of my own behavior going forward (which I try to do now, but the Atlantic article was so helpful for pointing out ways we might not be good partners to others).
Anonymous
You said you felt like stating “do you have any questions about my new company?” That sounds like something a junior associate would say when taking a summer to lunch, not what a friend would say when trying to catch up. You can dislike the tone of the comment, but don’t disparage your “friend” as self-involved or unable to carry on “normal conversation” because she isn’t interested in that kind of minutiae.
Issue with an old friend
To be clear, the question was meant along the lines of “do you want to know the name of the company/my new position?” rather than “do you want to hear every last detail about my new job???” But you may be a troll, so not sure why I’m bothering replying.
Anne Shirley
Why wouldn’t you just tell her the name? That feels a bit like a conversational trap. And I didn’t read “anonymous” as a troll at all.
L
+1.
It also might be that she expects you to fill in the gaps. Typically with my friends, I go “that’s great!” and then they proceed to tell me the details of their news. If they don’t I assume they don’t want to talk about it. Sure I ask questions, if they seem interested/relevant, but most people when sharing news, tend to spill all the details themselves.
Differing opinions
To be clear, I don’t think people were suggesting you were “bombarding her with boring news.” I think people were suggesting that she – for whatever reason – isn’t engaging your news right now, and since you can only really control yourself, backing off from needing her to engage your great news seems like it would help you and her.
Maybe give yourself some distance and time before you have a conversation as suggested above? If you have this conversation when the slights feel really recent and painful, the conversation will come off as accusatory. I doubt that would help the friendship move forward. That time may also give you perspective about the role you want her to play in your life.
Marilla
Are you having these conversations by text, or in person? You commented above that you feel like the response of “That’s great” or “That’s cool” shuts down the conversation, but I don’t think it has to — she could mean that as an opening for you to follow up and tell her more. Why not text back and say, “Yeah! I’m so excited – going to be working at company X which has an awesome goal/great perks/really hot co-workers!” If you want to have that in-depth conversation, you kind of have to be the one to signal that.
MJ
It took me many years to realize that what I consider being a good friend (loyalty, engagement, excitement (mutual), invitations to do things (mutual), generosity (mutual)–is not always what others consider friendship to be. What I expect from others isn’t always what they are able (or willing) to give. This has caused me to drift apart from some friends over the years, but not without me trying to fix it, or speaking with the friend frankly, in a non-accusatory fashion. I am sorry that you are not feeling that the friendships is as mutual as it could be.
Betsy
Is your friend possibly under a lot of stress at the moment? Personally, I find that I am a similarly poor conversationalist if I’m not trying. I have to be “on” to think about appropriate follow up questions and to remember to ask someone about an event after the fact. It’s just not a skill that comes naturally to me, and it can be hard to maintain friendships because of it. If I’m stressed out or tired I tend to forget to focus on being a good conversationalist. Maybe your friend just is a self absorbed jerk, but I think the other point in the article about not assuming the worst of your partner could be relevant here too!
January
+1 — that’s sort of what I meant when I said “depending on what else I have going on.” I’m better in person than over text, and even on the phone, but if you text me something and I’m really busy with work, I may not really have the mental capacity for something more than “Yay, that’s great!” at that moment.
Sacha
+1 Yes. This is me. I have to admit I have some of the tendencies of your friend, and I have become aware of it and that my relationships will improve if I work to change it. But … it has nothing to do with whether I care about another person or have interest in that person’s life. I am just overwhelmed with my own stuff sometimes to the point of distraction. Does that make me self-involved? Probably, in the sense that I am worried about my job. (Then again, my job is to worry about other people’s problems, not my own.) However, it doesn’t mean I don’t care about my friends. I remember everything they tell me, and eventually I will follow up and ask more. But that is probably going to happen when we sit down for dinner together on a weekend and I’ve been able to really disconnect for a few hours, not when I am looking at a text message while behind my desk, or when I am prepping for a hearing the next day in my mind while pretending to watch the World Cup, or anxious because one of my bosses has not gotten back to me about something important. What would work for me is if a friend said “Hey, we have got to really catch up. I feel like we haven’t truly talked in a while. What is a good time for us to really spend some time together? Dinner on Saturday?” Then I’m prepped to be “on” and I’ll be really happy for the connection afterwards.
ManagementConsultant
Read through all the comments posted so far. Here’s my take:
I worry a lot that I am very much like your friend. I definitely tell a lot of stories about myself. I am a pretty open person, much more than most, to where I’m generally comfortable sharing lots of personal stories with people. (Not TMI stuff, of course, just normal stories.) I like to use those stories as a conversation starter, because I feel like it gets people to open up more if you share your personal stuff as well – kind of sets the tone for what kind of stuff you’ll talk about. I always make sure that I’m flipping the conversation back to the other person, though – like, if I tell a story about my weekend, I’ll then go onto, “How about you? What were you up to this weekend?” And I genuinely am interested in what their response is.
But I also use my own stories as a way to keep the conversation going if I want to chat but don’t know what to ask, particularly if the other person is being quiet. The example I’m thinking of is that one of my good friends is pregnant, and she’s the first one of my friends to have a baby. I genuinely have no idea what to say or how to react to some information – like, if she tells me she had a doctor’s appointment, I will frequently say something generic like “Oh yay, hope the baby is good.” (I have in the past asked about what happened at the appointment, or other similar questions, but it felt like she was bored talking about those minutiae so now I haven’t asked.) Our friendsihp has really deteriorated in the last few months, and I think a big part of it may be that I don’t know how to engage with her and am pushing her away. So – taking that back to you – is it possible that your friend is like me, and that the topics you’re bringing up are things she doesn’t know enough about to have a solid conversation?
If it were me as the clueless self-involved friend (and hey, maybe it is!), I would absolutely want you to be honest with me about that. I know they say people never change, but maybe it’s something your friend is already concerned about, and you mentioning it would encourage her to recognize it and act differently (at least around you). If it’s for the reason of not knowing what to say, like I mentioned, that’s pretty easily fixed by both of you being honest. If it’s for another reason, there’s still a chance she might want to / be able to change it. I don’t think you have anything to lose by gently mentioning it to her, especially since it sounds like the friendship is on the rocks anyway.
anon
I read the article in the Atlantic as being about the ways each of us can try to be a better partner/friend, etc.; I don’t think it should be read as a call to criticize our friends/partners for not providing this kind of active listening. Different relationships provide different things and not every relationship is going to satisfy every one of your needs. If you begged her to be a more active listener, and she actually started doing it, wouldn’t it feel forced? Your friend may not be an active listener, but assuming that she has other redeeming qualities that bring joy to your life (fun to go out with, adventurous, whatever), maybe you could get to a place where you are satisfied with her passive responses because that need is satisfied by other friends who enjoy being active listeners and are good at it.
Amanda
It might be that your friend is just “that way”. My mother is absolutely this way. I have no doubt that my mother cares about me very much, but she’s just very emotionally detached. I’ll tell her something amazing about my job, and she will respond with something like “That’s nice. I had book club at my house this month.” She has no idea that there is anything insensitive about that response.
WomenLawyersNews
Is it the Masters of Love article?
Sydney Bristow
Yes. I don’t have the link right now, but it was posted in yesterday’s morning thread.
WomenLawyersNews
Ok, thanks, blinked and missed it! :-)
Confused midlevel
I have a career question.
I’m a mid-level transactional associate and I generally like my job and get good feedback, but I feel like I’m hitting a ceiling.
I’m working at moving up to senior associate, but there are two main things standing in my way.
1. I hate business development/networking etc.
2. I’m not a big picture thinker.
Point 2 is what it is, I will go along and make nice and talk to people, but this is an aspect of my job I would like to do less, not more, of and obviously partnership etc. means that BD will only increase, not decrease and I’m not sure how I feel about that.
The second part is more of an issue. I’m generally a doer rather than a thinker which comes in very handy when you are a junior/mid-level and you are managing deal flow etc. However, I don’t like to spend time thinking about stuff, I get impatient and I don’t enjoy it, meaning that I often miss stuff that, to a partner, is very obvious. I have had a discussion with the partner I work for a lot about this, and he said that very often I will do something and say ‘this is X’ which then when he looks at he concludes immediately ‘this is Y’ and it is something that is very obvious. Or, I will give comments on a document, but there is a greater issue of ‘should we even enter into this document’, which doesn’t occur to me. I don’t disagree that this is something to work on, but I have a suspicion that the issue is less ‘I should spend more time thinking about stuff’. Even when I hear the answer, I often feel like I wouldn’t have come up with it no matter how long I thought about it, even though it is, when heard, quite logical. So this feels like a characteristic that is less something to be learned and more something that is not that well suited to the job – I’ve never liked ‘thinking’ particularly, even as a student I always hated all the theorising and academic stuff and liked the practical stuff.
Based on this background, I wonder whether partnership is really where I want to head as there are features of the job that are just going to become more prevalent. I want to progress my career, rather than move sideways or be a career associate, so I’d love to know if there are any ladies out there who loved being a lawyer, but didn’t love the partnership side of things and what they went on to do at senior level and how that is different.
Of course if someone has any tips on how to fix the thinking problem, I’d love to hear those too!
Cat
For now, assuming you want to stay an associate for at least a while longer (from a senior associate perspective)… how mid-level are you? I found the difference between being a 3rd year and a 5th year, though technically both are mid-levels, to be enormous in terms of how I thought about projects. As a junior, no one is asking you to mark up a document unless they already believe it’s the right direction to go, so it’s a big mindset change to be asked for your thoughts generally, to validate your concern/challenges.
Before you dive in and redline, are you familiar with the basic purpose of / client’s goals for the transaction? Have you seen enough types of this transaction before to think about key topics that you know should be addressed in the agreement? (If the answer to that second question is no, I ask colleagues if they have any decent precedent that I can flip through for reference. Partners love when you can point out that the agreement is silent on something important.) Can you try to re-frame your impatience to start editing (which can definitely “feel” more productive than considering the points above) by thinking of it as step 3 or 4 in the matter rather than step 1?
mascot
Are you getting to interact with clients and talk with them about their business? It’s harder to issue spot if you don’t know what is important to that client. Although it seems academic to theorize about whether you should enter into a particular agreement, there’s a practical side too. Perhaps re-frame the initial question from “what does this document say” to “what does this document do” it will help.
Confused midlevel
These are both valid points, thanks! For background, I joined my (then small) team as a junior when there were only two associates (I am now in a fifth year equivalent) so I’ve had tons of client contact and marking up/drafting experience from day 1. So none of this in terms of tasks is new, but it has only become an issue now, presumably because the expectations are higher (and when you are very junior you are not expected to get the big picture so much and the partner will pick up the stuff you don’t know).
Anon
I’ll be blunt, without the ability to be strategic, it’s going to be very hard for you to advance beyond a mid-level/ middle manager role. I think you can learn the skill but you’ll need a basic level of intellectual curiosity. You can try to get that/work on it if advancing is important to you, or you can reframe your goals – look for a firm where you can be a career associate or go in-house and become part of a “doer” team. Maybe one day manage the people aspects of the team. There’s nothing wrong with focusing on what you’re good at and pursuing a career along those lines and recognition is half the battle. Not everyone belongs in the c-suite.
Diana Barry
+1. Strategizing is both important and hard to do. If you can stretch and exercise that strategizing muscle, it will help. I now have to do strategic thinking as part of serving my big clients and it felt very weird at first to sit and THINK about things, but becomes easier with time.
You may also consider specializing into a particular kind of transaction, where you know the steps backwards and forwards and there is only one path to take. Then you just have to find the volume of clients to keep up with the churn through those transactions.
B
I’ll agree with the “try to work on that” part of the above comment. We’re generally better at the things we do everyday. So you’re good at being a doer because that’s what you’ve been practicing in your current job. Meanwhile, the partner you’re working with is making these ‘obvious’ (as you put it) big picture comments, because that’s what he’s been practicing every day for X years.
I think your problem is just as likely to be experience as aptitude. Don’t hold yourself back because you’re not good at your next job yet!!
Annon Midlevel
+1 go in-house or find a different specialty. That way you can focus more on getting things done, and less on the theoretical legal concerns. I interned doing immigration law and had the opposite problem you are having – to me, it was repetitive and required no big picture analysis, there is one form, one process for one type of petition. But I have friend practicing immigration who love it. As Carrie says below, being self-aware and adjusting your carreer to fit you can be a great decision.
Carrie
I am not a lawyer, I’m in medicine, but your second problem reminds me of someone I know. Ultimately, she chose a different specialty of medicine that worked well for her skill set.
I work in an area of medicine that involves a lot of complex problem solving. There are fewer algorithms in my specialty to follow compared with some other fields, and sometimes the answer isn’t always clear and only evolves over time. So you are always thinking big picture, and you gather the details as you go along, and then you modify your hypothesis as needed. That is a huge simplification, but close enough. I love it because it is very challenging, there is always more to learn, and there are great research questions to work on.
My friend in medicine likes to work quickly, and have the answer always be clear. She likes problem lists, checking off boxes, and going home knowing that everything is neatly tucked away. After a night on call (she was the only person in the hospital in her specialty all night long), she broke down one day and said “I don’t LIKE my field of medicine. I DON’T WANT TO HAVE TO THINK!!”
She was very very bright, worked very fast, but sometimes just didn’t stop to think carefully… and then would miss the big picture… the right diagnosis.
She dropped out of my residency program after 1 year. Left us brutally understaffed, but I respected her for her choice. She figured out that even though she really liked medicine, our specialty wasn’t for her. She switched to a completely different specialty in a field that is very popular, with fewer diagnoses that you see a lot, and these diagnoses had a much clearer treatment paths. She then subspecialized so that she knew everything about her tiny area, and felt much more secure.
I am sure she is a great doctor and that her patients love her. Thank goodness she figured out her strengths/weaknesses early enough to make the career path switch.
Maybe you need a lateral move to find your perfect niche?
Face Value
May I ask which field you are in? This sounds very interesting to me (big picture girl).
Blonde Lawyer
Thought I’d offer you another suggestion. My medical group has certain primary care doctors that are reserved for patients with complex medical problems and multiple specialists. They are called internist specialists or something like that but the designation, I believe, is specific to my medical group’s naming conventions, not an actual type medical practice. Anyway, this person is supposed to assist with overseeing the care of the patient and making sure that between all the sub-specialties, no big picture issues are getting missed. I’m “lucky” enough to have one of these primaries and it is great. While she still often has to refer me to a specialist and I still have to see my regular specialists, I feel like when I present with a new problem she actually analyzes which of my conditions could be causing it and how to fix it (like if it could be a medication side effect) instead of just throwing more meds at me or pointing to yet another specialist. Might be a good field for a big picture person. I also love that she will research things and get back to me instead of trying to diagnose me on the spot.
Samantha
Maybe I am oversimplifying, but I’m picturing you as the diagnostician in ‘House’ and your friend in a field like dermatology, or family practice (lots of colds). I’m not in medicine (obviously). :)
Anon
I am not a lawyer (I am an engineer). I had the problem that you have. I am so focused on getting things done that I miss the big picture. Ultimately, it is about what you want to do. At least in my field there are plenty of opportunities for people who are very focused and detail oriented and for people who just want don’t want to get into the details.
I realized that I had this problem when I failed in an interview for a job that I really really wanted. I am a designer but I wanted to be an architect (computer hardware related field). I prepared so much for the interview and I did reasonably well too. When I failed, I asked for the feedback and the interviewer whom I respect a lot. He gave me the feedback that I should have more breadth. I knew every detail about what I was doing but I had no idea about the entire system. He asked me to think every time about the entire system, how different component interact, what will be the impact on other components if I make a certain decision etc. He specifically told me that I can become an excellent design engineer and progress in that path. However if I want to become an architect I should develop the skills he suggested me. Becoming a system architect has been my dream. So I decided to work on his feedback, took a job which gives me more breadth and has a path to become an architect (rather than interviewing for an architect job, you get promoted to an architect position). I am doing well here too and every day I make an effort to think like an architect and suggest him what needs to be done rather than he telling me what needs to be done. However I could have chosen to exploit my existing skills and excel as a designer which has its’ own rewards. But I wanted to try my best to realize my dream.
So it is totally up to you. If you think you are not a big picture thinker and you will not enjoy it, go for the jobs where your skills are valued. It is hard to find people who can get things done and you will
do well.
SV in House
I just want to add that the ability to think strategically is very important — particularly as you move up the ranks — when you are in house. The doers tend to get pigeon holed into midlevel roles. What has helped me is looking at areas where I do have intellectual curiosity and figuring out what piques that curiosity. I then try to look at work issues that way (not always easy)
cbackson
Two thoughts:
1) I don’t think deal work is right for you, but it sounds like you know that. Ultimately, at the senior associate and partner level, clients are paying for you to be a thinker. They don’t want to pay a senior associate/partner rate for someone simply to execute the transaction – that’s what junior and midlevel associates are for. It’s not about whether or not you enjoy theoretical stuff – from the client’s perspective, none of this is theoretical – but, as you correctly noted, about seeing the big picture. If you liked being a junior/midlevel associate, then I agree – some type of contract work or non-partnership track position may be right for you, assuming you won’t chafe at the lack of advancement. That said, some big law firms and investment banks employ deal project managers – that actually sounds like it might be a great job for you. Those are “doer” positions, and your experience as a junior and midlevel deal lawyer would be fantastic background. Maybe something to consider?
2) On business development, if you’re in the right field, it doesn’t feel like work. I go out to network-y events and client drinks and stuff like that all the time, but I love my industry and am genuinely interested in learning about their businesses, talking about developments in the field, etc. regardless of whether it turns into work soon. But doing BD for, say, healthcare law? Or general M&A? Would bore me stiff and feel awkward and un-fun. My suspicion is that it’s less about hating BD and more about being in a job that isn’t a natural fit for your strengths.
Ultimately, it sounds like you’ve been working long enough to know what you enjoy and what you’re good at. Don’t fight your strengths – embrace them and figure out how to let them shape your career. You’ll be happier and more successful as a result.
Samantha
I see parallels to your second point in my field as well, and I recognize aspects of it in myself. I’m a ‘doer’, I like ‘quick wins’, I’m very operational, and impatient. I like checking things off lists at work.
I have no specific advice, but I think there are jobs where this strength of yours can be very valuable, where you can come in and be a ‘problem solver’ and this will be valued. I don’t think this is any kind of ‘lesser’ skill than the big picture skill and I think you should look for a way to let this shape your future career moves.
AIMS
This will probably end up in moderation but I wanted to post a quick PSA about the Saks Off Fifth big dress sale online right now. Lots of cute work dresses and lots of really cute c*cktail & evening dresses, just in time for all the weddings.
I really like this as an all-purpose, wear to a million weddings, inexpensive option:
bit.ly/T7pjke
emeralds
That’s really cute.
Bonne
Nice dress AIMS. I am banning myself from buying any more special occasion dresses. They are so pretty but I don’t wear them enough to justify committing the limited space in my closet.
LT IT
I like the look of this jacket but it’s part linen and I don’t do linen. Also reviews seem kind of meh.
Bonne
I hate linen too but love the cut of this jacket.
Alice
On the other hand, I love the first jacket linked (the one with the flowers that the poster owns). Good thing it’s not available, or I might actually be tempted to buy it…
Jenny
I actually just ordered this jacket yesterday (it was marked down an additional $100). It should come this week and I will report back.
The negative comments were about how “linear” the jacket is, which is actually what appealed to me about it. I like very architectural/graphic clothing.
Lorelai Gilmore
I love this jacket and the floral linked jacket. I’ve often had good luck finding these kinds of detailed jackets at Talbots and am intrigued by the one I’m posting below. My concern is that it’s a no-close jacket. Have any of you had success adding a closure to a no-close jacket?
http://www.talbots.com/online/browse/product_details.jsp?id=prdi32780&rootCategory=cat70012&catId=cat80008&sortKey=Default§ion=Regular&conceptIdUnderSale=cat70012
Bonnie
It should be really easy to add a hook and eye closure to that jacket.
waiver to access recommendation letters
Just wondering if people generally waive access to recommendation letters requested when applying for jobs. Pros? Cons?
Prof
I only agree to write recommendation letters if access is waived. But I also assure the subject that I decline to write letters if I can’t give a strong recommendation.
Wildkitten
I believe it’s standard to waive access.
Jules
Original more detailed response got lost, but I agree, you should waive.
hours
Has anyone here in big law not met your billable hours “requirement”? What were the short-term repercussions? My firm is not very transparent about the short-term consequences (e.g., effects on salary). I’m not as interested in the long-term aspects (e.g., making partner), which I know can be brutal.
Diana Barry
Yup, when I was in biglaw not everyone met their hours every year. A well-kept secret was how many people fell short of the hours ‘requirement’. See if you can ask a more senior associate about the firm’s policy, and look at NALP data etc. to see if you can find out anything about your firm in particular.
Anonymous
I think this varies by firm so I agree with Diana to poke around and see what you can find out from a more senior associate. In my experience, not making hours for one year, particularly in the lower class levels, usually means no bonus (but still moving up a class year on salary). Not making them for several years, particularly as you get up to mid-level, usually means getting the “it may be time to explore other opportunities” talk. I know people at other firms who were let go immediately without that “hint hint if you don’t leave you’ll be fired in 6 months” warning, but there seemed to be other issues with work product and meeting deadlines than just making hours.
WestCoast Lawyer
+1 This was what I saw when I was in big law. Also, I think if this is the first year you don’t make hours, you have been pretty clearly looking for work, and your department is generally a little slow (at least for the work available at your seniority level) you should be fine. If everyone else at your seniority level has met or exceeded hours and it looks like you have been dodging work there might be a problem.
Anon
Until this year, I think that people making hours was the exception (and a lot of 1500 hour people didn’t get sacked, since I think they are still profitable at that point).
I think the Q is different if everyone is making hours but you and if you are very far behind the pack and if you have a story (and it’s not good for you if the story is that you only work for Partner A and Partner A is having an off year). In the meantime, every day you aren’t busy, try to be useful (do CLE presentations, solicit work, etc.). I’m assuming that your feedback has been good (and that that is in fact accurate).
anon to avoiding outing others
Because some people here know me in person, going anon for this one so as to avoid outing other people. I would suggest approaching a partner about this, if you haven’t been approached already. You need to get a sense of whether others are making hours, whether there is a perception that your failure to do so is your fault, and what the likely repercussions are. We are likely to fire two junior associates in my group this year because they aren’t making hours and there’s a perception they’re not trying to get the work (or that they’re not being sent work due to poor work product). Both have already gotten a talking-to, and it sounds like you haven’t, but maybe your firm does do talking-tos.
I think at some firms lots of people miss hours, but mine is enforcing it fairly hard this year – it’s too your benefit to get out in front of this, at least so that the partnership can tell that you care.
tax issue
Lovely jacket.
TJ about how to successfully prove that a payment was made to the IRS. We are due back more than the IRS is giving us. Of course, it has no record of an estimated payment that was made by check and which it electronically converted. Unfortunately, we don’t have a copy of the check in question; all we have is a bank statement showing the ACH transfer to them. Bank is trying to get more proof, but basically the check is gone. The only copy would be with the IRS and probably impossible to retrieve. Has anyone successfully dealt with this issue? It’s not a small amount (12k), so would really like it back! In the future, we will make copies of all checks, front and back, before submitting…
Face Value
Did you send by certified or registered mail? If so, the green postcard you got back should work as evidence of the payment.
Registered mail may be overkill, but FWIW, I’d use certified mail for all tax filings / payments (and evidence of the contents, which I note on the green postcard — 1040X and payment, etc.).
Anonymous
Is there a 14-digit number in the transaction info your bank has? It may be cut off the paper statement and even online but the bank should be able to see the full details on their end. If there is a group of 14 numbers, there’s a good chance that is the IRS’s “document locator number” which the IRS can use to look up the payment and see where it was applied.
Anonymous
Whoops, my mistake–it would be 15 digits for electronic payments. It’s 14 for paper documents and payments that are not able to be converted to ACH.
tax issue
Thanks for the tips! My husband thinks he sent via certified mail, but doesn’t know where any records are. I’ll poke around a bit. Doubt I can find it online at this point. Will do this in the future too.
I’ve contacted the bank to get information and will see what they come up with. Oddly, the IRS has a record a payment that I can’t find in our records. When I asked if they could trace through their locator number, the rep said “no.” Of course, another rep may have a different answer .
ANON
Is the payment they show that you have no record of in the same amount as the payment they’re saying you didn’t make? If so, they probably applied the payment to the wrong period. See my response at bottom.
tax issue
No, it’s a completely different amount and no earlier payments were submitted that could have been mistaken for a different period.
Blonde Lawyer
I’ll ask someone I know with inside info and post back when I hear back. In the meantime, have you tried the Taxpayer Advocate’s line? Their job is to fight for you.
tax issue
Just saw your response – thank you so much! Worried that too many inquiries may lead to an audit. I was told by a former auditor that it doesn’t matter if your inquiries are legitimate.
Blonde Lawyer
From my contact:
The IRS electronically scans all payments made by a hand written check. So presumably, if a person physically writes a check to the us treasury, it would be scanned and an imaged could be retrieved. The systems should also show payments received for the tax year it was applied. In some cases, people write that a payment is for their 2013 taxes, but because it’s 2012 when you wrote it, that’s where the payment goes if it’s not clearly labeled. In any case, the check and transfer in the bank act should have IRS information stamped on the back of the check showing which IRS service center it went to. The last thing to do is request a copy of your transcript (if they still do this) at your local IRS office. It will show what you reported for tax and any payments that have been applied.
tax issue
Thank you, but the IRS asked me to provide an image of the check, so uncertain if they will try to retrieve it for me. And my bank says that there is no transaction no. or phone number. They did give me the number to their processing office as a last resort. Guess I will try calling both IRS and my bank again…
Blonde Lawyer
If you are going to try the IRS again, I would try through the advocate’s office.
tax issue
Not to be paranoid, but are there any repercussions with the IRS if one does go through the advocate’s office?
Anonymous
You can request transcripts yourself online. An attorney/CPA/enrolled agent can also do this for you and get them faster because the IRS will fax it to them immediately vs. mailing to you, but mailing is an option if you are not in a huge hurry. And much cheaper because it is rather expensive to have an attorney sit on hold for an hour on the IRS Practitioner Hotline before they can speak to a human.
There are no repercussions going through TAS, but it’s not quite as easy to use them as it’s being mentioned. You have to meet their qualifications for help, which it doesn’t really sound like are present here. Please don’t read that as me saying your issue is not serious, because I definitely think $12k is a serious amount of money and this is a ridiculous mistake on their end, but more just that TAS has a set of criteria and from where it sounds like you are in the collection process, it’s too early for them to step in. They have to triage and focus their limited resources on the truly worst cases, like the person whose house is going to be sold tomorrow to satisfy the tax debt they already paid but the IRS can’t find their check. You thankfully have plenty of time in the collection process to sort this out before that point would come!
ANON
I just wrote the longest response and it got deleted. Annoying!
CPA here. The IRS may have applied a 2013 4th quarter ES payment which you would’ve paid in January 2014 to tax year 2014 instead of tax year 2013. I’ve seen this case many times. If you haven’t already, I’d suggest calling them and asking them what payments they show for tax years 2013 and 2014 and compare to your records.
This would be the easy answer of course….
long time lurker
This exactly happened to me this year – I got a bill with penalties and called the IRS 800 number that was listed on the “bill” . It took forever and a day but I finally connected with someone and it turned out they had resolved the issue already and I owed nothing – IRS had applied the 2013 4Q payment to 2014.
ANON
You should write 2013 Form 1040 4th quarter est. on the memo line of your check and this should resolve the problem.
long time lurker
I did, I am religious about always writing the info in the memo line of checks. My online banking has images of checks, so I pulled the check image up and had it read to send to the IRS if need be. My accountant said it happens…
Anonymous
You can also use the Treasury’s online payment portal, EFTPS and it will force you to select the tax form and period, and you can also check back in a few days later and ensure that it was applied properly. Another bonus is that you can schedule the date of payment rather than mailing it far in advance to make sure it gets there in time. Unless you really like ordering paper checks and paying postage, this is my preferred method of payment.
tax issue
Thanks everyone! Really appreciate your tips; will report back!
LH
I know this has been asked before, but I can’t find it. My husband is changing jobs this summer and will have a 6 day gap in insurance. Does he need to buy insurance in advance or can he buy it retroactively if anything happens?
ANON
Are you sure there will be a gap in coverage? Every time I’ve switched job and had a week off in between, the previous employer’s insurance covered the entire month. Example: Last day was May 23rd, insurance was in effect through May 31st. He should check with his old employer to be sure of the lapse.
LH
He asked Old Job when the coverage was up and they gave him a date that is 6 days before the end of the month so we are sure there’s a lapse.
Mpls
Does Old Job self-insure, or do you have coverage with an outside insurer? Generally, you pay monthly premiums for a full month of coverage, so I would double check that statement with an Old Job benefits person, or the insurance company.
Blonde Lawyer
If he is COBRA eligible he can buy it retroactive if he needs it.
LH
How do we know if he’s COBRA eligible?
Jules
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq-consumer-cobra.html
Jules
He’ll get a letter from the insurance administrator (either at the employer or the insurance carrier) with his COBRA rights upon termination of his participation in the plan. And, as Blonde Lawyer notes, you can purchase the coverage (for 102% of the total cost of participation) retroactively.
Jules
Also, check with the new employer; the coverage may not start at day 1, so you might need COBRA for more than the 6 days.
Anonymous
+1. At my last two jobs, coverage did not kick in until I’d worked there for one month, and my prior employer cut off coverage at the end of my last month there, so I had a one month gap while I was at New Job and uninsured.
kc esq
Do you have possible family coverage? When I had a similar situation, my husband’s work told him that they could retroactively add me to his coverage if we needed it for the week before my new job started.
Hollis
I just read the interesting profile on John Edward’s daughter in WaPo. Here is my lingering question – how was it possible for Elizabeth Edwards to untie her tubes, get pregnant, and have her youngest children at ages 48 and 50? I thought that having children for most women older than 45 was pretty rare, but to do it twice?
Anon
I have no idea but likely IVF non? Perhaps Donor egg? Does it really matter?
Killer Kitten Heels
I wish I could remember where I read this, but a year or two ago, I read something that suggested that women who have already had a child prior to age 35 generally are more likely to get pregnant at later ages than women who have never been pregnant.
Also in Academia
My MIL is a nurse and she told me the same thing when I was worried about how old I’d be when having our second! No idea if it’s actually true, and I didn’t wait as long as Elizabeth Edwards, but I certainly got pregnant again after 35 quite easily.