Tuesday’s Workwear Report: Lim Mix Stripe Wrap Style Cotton Blouse

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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

I know we've featured shirts like this in the past — sort of wackadoodle, crazy takes on very classic, conservative looks that are ultimately rooted in menswear. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't.

Personally, I do like this one, which is from Maje — it's obviously not for the banker at the super-conservative office, but it's worth considering if you're the kind of woman who has a lot of fun with your clothes and has a witty approach to fashion.

It would look great with a basic black or gray pencil skirt, and it's definitely a fun, interesting take on a classic.

It's $295 at Nordstrom and available in sizes 1–3 (equivalent to 2–8). Lim Mix Stripe Wrap Style Cotton Blouse

For lower-priced alternatives, try this Bardot top or this Lafayette 148 New York top, both on sale (lucky sizes only, unfortunately), and for a plus-size option, try this one from Seven7 Jeans

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Sales of note for 2/7/25:

  • Nordstrom – Winter Sale, up to 60% off! 7850 new markdowns for women
  • Ann Taylor – Extra 25% off your $175+ purchase — and $30 of full-price pants and denim
  • Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything + extra 15% off
  • Boden – 15% off new season styles
  • Eloquii – 60% off 100s of styles
  • J.Crew – Extra 50% off all sale styles
  • J.Crew Factory – 40% off everything including new arrivals + extra 20% off $125+
  • Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 40% off last-chance styles
  • Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
  • Talbots – 40% off one item + free shipping on $150+

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

321 Comments

  1. I like the idea of it, but this wouldn’t fly at my work, I’d get too many snarky comments about wearing a straight jacket

    1. I had a version of this Lafayette 148 blouse. I discovered I am really bad at tying bows. There are other versions, though, that just require draping a sash, and I have one on order as this year’s not-boring white blouse.

  2. Tips for insomnia? It is partially a side effect from medication I’m taking and partially something I had before. I dealt with it previously by taking melatonin but I’m not sure I should take that with this medication (Wellbutrin). For further context, I haven’t been drinking caffeine and it doesn’t seem to matter how much I wear myself out during the day – I will be exhausted but still not fall asleep. I’m not into the hot teas before bedtime. I tried a hot shower last night which didn’t work (laid in bed for over 3 hours before falling asleep). Any other ideas?

    1. It took me a long time (a year) when I was younger to overcome insomnia. I don’t do anything in bed aside from sleep. I have a bedtime routine (turn off computers, put phone away, lights on low shower). If feasible, I shower with the lights on low or on in another room. I don’t go to bed until I am tired. If I need to read, I leave bed and read on the couch.

      If I fall asleep on the couch and wake up at 2 am, I go to bed as quickly as possible and refuse to do *anything* more than necessary. Not a single email. Not a dish put in the sink. Get up off couch, turn off lights, get into pj’s, bed.

      Most people fail at this. “Oh, it doesn’t matter if I read in bed for ten minutes.” “I can sprawl out on the bed during the day.” “I can try out a different nightly ‘routines’ every day.”

      1. Badger sleep balm works for me, and I have recommended it to colleagues who also find it helpful. You can find it on Amazon. It is basically lavender and bergamot in a lip-balm like substance you can rub on your wrists or other pulse points.

    2. I find that reading something not exciting helps, esp. reading in bed. Something like . . . historical nonfiction. Like the last Czar (gauzy pictures of grand duchesses, why it is bad to spend several generations having children with cousins, what could have been different had the older surviving son (IIRC) not been so inept at commanding his own military, what about Rasputin?). Something that is slow to unfold, that you already know how it ends, etc.

      Not: Game of Thrones (although surprisingly similar in many ways).

    3. Meditation apps. If they lull you to sleep, great! If they don’t and you end up improving at meditation, that has its own benefits.

    4. I think I recall that you can take Gravol with Wellbutrin (but I would check with your doctor).
      Also, have you tried an orgasm – the release might just be enough to push you into sleep.

      1. +1 I take Wellbutr*n and trazodone (though I rarely need the trazodone). If you’re having insomnia your doctor might also want to adjust your Wellbut*n dosage. I also doubt that melatonin would be problematic but certainly ask.

    5. +1 for guided meditation! There are sleep-specific ones that really lull you. I’ve been liking the Adaptiv Sleeper Better which is free with an Audible subscription.

    6. How long have you been on the Wellbutrin? For the first month or so it caused terrible insomnia, but it evened out. I also take it at night so its activating effects are wearing off when I’m in bed and it hasn’t started working yet. I take the XR version.

    7. I quit Wellbutrin after 2 months because I literally hadn’t slept more than 2-3 hours per night for 8 weeks. We tinkered the with dosage a lot, but it didn’t matter for me.

      1. Just curious, were you exhausted only sleeping 2-3 hours per night or did it turn you into one of those people that needed very little sleep to function?

        1. Not this Anon, but it didn’t make me magically need sleep not to function. I was just exhausted all the time.

    8. I saw a sleep neurologist. She said that light and blue light is a legit factor; she recommended using red shift settings or apps like f.lux at a minimum, and possibly also wearing sunglasses in the house after dark if the household lighting is bright. But maybe this was advice she gave to me specifically because my circadian rhythms are “fragile.” She said that lower doses (like 0.3 mg) of melatonin are more effective for insomnia than higher doses.

      She also suggested switching away from time-release Wellbutrin and taking the immediate release in the AM only. My psychiatrist was happy to try this. I have also heard people on the internet claim that the name-brand time-release Wellbutrin is “better.” This is theoretically possible because the inactive ingredients that are used to create time release formulations are not FDA required to be equivalent in the generic. But I have no idea if it’s actually true in this instance.

      1. Additionally, a generic drugs dosing in the blood must be within 20% of the name brand. So, generics can be off by ~1/5 and still pass.

    9. Look up “sleep restriction therapy”. This is helpful to shift your bedtime earlier, and you can impliment it on your own without professional intervention. A few other tips that I use (Diagnosed with insomnia and Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder 10 years ago): wake up at the same time everyday, even on weekends (real struggle for me still), limit bright blue light 2 hours before your desired bedtime (look into bluelight blocking sunglasses), a low dose of melatonin 2.5 hours before desired bedtime (my dr specifically recommends the Trader Joes brand, 500 mcg which is .5 mg). I like tea with valerian root but you said that’s not your thing. Sleep hygiene and all that. Bright light in the morning, I have a light box at my desk that I use 9am-9:30.

    10. I’ve struggled with insomnia since I was a kid and I’ve found that headphones designed for sleep and a podcast on sleep timer really help. But I think my issue is I need to distract my mind so it can relax enough to sleep. Good luck – insomnia is really tough.

  3. I need strategies (other than therapy, please) for overcoming my inferiority complex. I have a habit of interpreting everything in the least favorable way for myself, and always feel like I’m left on the outside, unpretty, unfun, and no one will ever like me or think that I’m good at something. This is obviously completely ridiculous, and I think that in my rational brain I have a good sense of things and am generally a good judge of where I stand, but I am trying to internalize it. I also know why I feel this way (a lot of things growing up, basically I was not liked and not cared for by most people I knew (e.g., one of my parents, step family, people at school, school administration) all of which where totally out of my control. I think as a kid I didn’t totally understand what was going on, but at this point I realize it was totally not about me (e.g., I went to a fancy private school on financial aid and the faculty/administrators were just kind of this way to people who they didn’t think were going to be donors). Anyway, I’ve picked up some habits that I hope will be helpful- Journaling daily about good things that happen to me/things that I’m proud of- and there are a lot! I’m very happy with who I’ve become and what I’ve accomplished. Another would be challenging negative thoughts when i ahve them and reframing in the moment.

    I’m making headway, but I could also use some suggestions on how to change my internal narrative when I know it doesn’t match reality

    1. Well therapy yes would help. I’ve also found positive self talk really useful, and shutting down negative thoughts, and finding things in my life that fulfill me without external praise (cooking, long walks, reading).

    2. I have experienced this as well. There have been times, especially when I’m feeling insecure about being “unfun,” is to literally list the people who like me for who I am and enjoy spending time with me. This takes some effort, but when I catch myself spiraling, I sometimes tell myself, “OK, brain, you’re overreacting. Thanks for trying to protect me, but I’ve got this. I’m fine.” It sounds SO HOKEY, but it does help retrain those old patterns of thinking.

      Good work on journaling!

      And, I’m sorry you experienced some uncaring adults during your formative years. That sounds like a tough environment for a kid.

    3. This was one of the ways anxiety showed up for me. It greatly improved when I got on medication. I know you said no therapy, but maybe you would be open to medication.

    4. Read The Four Agreements by Miguel Ruiz. Some of it is kind of woo-woo, but there is one section about not taking things personally that is incredible in how it can shift your perspective on how other people think about you.

    5. Check out The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook. It’s very clearly organized so that you can use only the chapters/exercises that apply to you.

    6. Meditation helped me a lot as far as dealing with negative self-talk. It lets you practice redirecting your thoughts and not letting them run away with you, which are definitely things I struggle with. I really like the Headspace app, but there are tons of options out there.

    7. You might like the structure and open-ended format of the “Five Minute Journal” … it’s big on gratitude and happiness.

    8. I have this tendency and have improved a lot – it used to be totally crippling. It sounds silly, but I’d sharply tell myself ‘No!’ in my head every time I caught myself with a negative self-thought. I read about it in a book that said it’s possible to rewire your brain to be “more user-friendly.” And it worked.

      1. It’s also important to replace the negative message with something better. “Ugh I suck at this and I can’t do it” — No! “I am learning to do this, I will get better at it.”

    9. Oh friend. I’m sorry the adults around you when you were growing up didn’t have the capacity to love you. Let me assure you: you are 100% lovable! Often, what we believe is based on our past. Like a fish swimming in water, some of the things we believe are so ingrained in us that the thoughts go along, unquestioned. We think those thoughts are the “truth” and that the “truth” comes from the outside world, but in reality, these are just the thoughts we have chosen to think. Kudos to you for becoming aware of what you are thinking and finding it objectionable – that’s the first step in making a change. If you want to create a new future, then you have to start learning how to think new thoughts. This requires consciousness and skill. It requires you to believe something you have never believed before. You can choose to believe that you are fun, pretty and that everyone loves you. There is as much truth in that statement as there is in the opposite statement. There is no thought police, no one can tell you not to believe that! You have to practice that new thought and start living as if it is true. Easier said than done, I know. I recommend that you listed to a podcast that I find very helpful: Brooke Castillo “The Life Coach School.” It will help you get a handle on why this is happening and how to change. Good luck, friend! You’ve got this!

    10. Thank you all for the helpful suggestions and resources- I will get to work on these!

  4. I have a bunch of clients to meet at not-their-office locations next week (that still need to be close-ish to their offices). Are there good private-ish or large/nice coffee type places you could recommend near:

    7th/52nd
    6th/43rd-44th

    Thanks!

    1. If you search for a specific location on Google Maps you can do a “search nearby” for coffee shops.

    2. I love Luminary. It’s at Broadway and West 29th, but there’s an R/W train right there. Male visitors are welcome on the 3rd floor. Coffee, tea and wine are included in membership. There are a ton of meeting rooms and spaces. And you can hear yourself think. Plus, the decor is elevated.

      Following on from Kat’s recent post about women’s spaces, this one is amazing.

      1. Thanks — clients are 90% men, so this probably won’t work, but it looks lovely.

          1. Or the one closer to 50th Street – I successfully had a mid-afternoon work meeting there and found it uncrowded. I’m sure mealtimes would be different.

    3. Gotan is on 46th btwn 5th and Madison. There is also a Gregory’s closer to that exact corner but it’s often crowded. Royalton Lobby is also a decent spot.
      Citizen M hotel lobby close to 52nd and 7th. Otherwise, LPQ at 50th btwn 6-7th, but Citizen M is a more interesting spot.

    1. I’m a big fan of scarves if you can swing it in your office. A nicely tucked scarf under a suit jacket still reads very business formal to me but gives a bit of character. I’d also take some inspiration from menswear like pocket squares or French cuff shirts with nice cuff links.

      1. + 1 scarves add interesting colors, can be a great barrier between your face and shirt collar if you are a makeup wearer esp. with dark skin, and they don’t make noise or are annoying to type with like bracelets can be

    2. I love a suit with a special lining. All my Boden jackets have printed linings that make me smile.

    3. Silk blouses in great colors or prints, pumps with interesting texture or trim, a tote bag with interesting color or texture or trim.

    4. Kat, please investigate this one. The OP responding to people insisting it’s a REAL question, combined with the subject matter…???

      1. I mean… this is a fashion blog, and she has a fashion question. She didn’t ask specifically about button downs lol.

        1. Right, but it’s the same slightly-incorrect English and vague question re business attire style that we’ve seen many times before.

          1. Even so, it’s a fair question. Like people who ask about playsets and paint colors. What IS the right color gray?

    5. Per my fashion mags, ditch the shirt. They are idiots — that is what their pictures propose though. I think you have to wear a top though and prefer shells or blouses. They can have the interest of a scarf without getting teased about which airline you work for. If you go with a scarf, IMO the oblong ones are much easier to get a good result from than something like a 24″ or 36″ square.

    6. I like a thin colorful belt (assuming you are wearing pants or a dress/skirt that lends itself to it) . It adds a bit of interest.

  5. I…have no idea what is going on with this shirt. It looks like some kind of futuristic diner waitress outfit? Which…isn’t necessarily bad I think? Also, why are all the photos of it cropped so you can’t actually tell where the shirt ends?

    1. I meant the posted shirt BTW. The Brooks Brothers one in the link looks totally fine and pretty.

    2. I can’t tell whether it’s a very long shirt, a dress, or a short shirt and matching skirt.

  6. I’m in the market for a new rolling carry-on bag and am having trouble finding the past threads where certain bags were recommended. What do people use these days? I can’t remember if the Away bag was recommended.

    1. I have a 19″ travelpro and I love it. Best value for the money in my opinion, and I travel at least twice a week. I’ve had it for several years and it still looks crisp and new as well.

    2. I have the carry-on size suitcase from Roxy/ Quiksilver. You have to be choosy about the prints but I love the construction of them: one half is a rigid suitcase and the other is more of a duffel, with straps that help pull it tighter.

    3. I have the TravelPro Magna Platinum 2 or something like that and really enjoy it. I also just got my mom an Away suitcase for Mother’s Day (the larger of the two carry on sizes) and was impressed by the quality and style, but I can’t speak to its longevity.

    4. If you get the Away or any other smartbag, Delta (and maybe other carriers) make you take out the battery for checking or carry ons now.

    5. I have an Away bag. Whatever you do, don’t get a black one. Too many sudden needs to gate check these days and my tan Away bag with painted monogram never gets walked away with.

    6. IMO the Away is overpriced. The handles and zippers feel cheap and it scuffs really easily. I was much happier with my Samsonite.

    7. I have the AWAY carry on and honestly i am obsessed with it. Granted, it was my first luggage upgrade in >7 years, but it really makes it so much easier for me to travel.

    8. I am a die hard Tumi fan and have both the soft shell and hard sided ones. But must confess I have recently been eye-ing a Rimowa one since they launched an extra lite version

    9. Eagle Creek. It’s a little sportier looking than some of the recommended ones but I love it.

    10. I looked at Away, but found the handle to be pretty flimsy. Plus, you have to take the battery out when checking it. You don’t mention your budget, but if you travel often I really think it’s worth investing in a Tumi of Briggs & Riley. You can often find them at Nordstrom Rack for cheaper (but definitely no cheap).

      1. Tumi *OR Briggs & Riley. Forgot to mention that I have the Briggs & Riley Sympatico in the international carry-on travel, I do a lot of internatinoal travel, so that’s what made the most sense to me. I love it.

        1. I have this too! It’s awesome, pricey but I know I never have to worry about it cracking/opening/or basically letting me down in any way.

      2. The handle on the away is intentionally wiggly- it’s so that you can walk over curbs/bumps/cobblestones without breaking any rigid parts.

    11. I had the Away (carry on and the medium) and returned them. They have a leather binding on one of the outside edges, and TSA opened my bag and managed to stuff both zippers under there. I literally had to cut the darn leather binding open to open up my bag. Huge design flaw IMHO and I would have been SO mad if I discovered that at my hotel instead of at home.
      I love my Tumi garment bag for 3-4 day trips, for 2 day or overnight trips I’ve swapped to a duffle – keeps me from overpacking and much easier to cram into an overhead. I really like the Lo and Sons small catalina – the bottom compartment is great for liquids and shoes.

    12. I love my Away bag, I can get two weeks in the small carryon packing strategically. I don’t personally get the handle critique, I’ve never had an issue with it. I also love the battery – I tend to forget to bring a separate one for travel so I always pop it out and use it at some point during a flight to recharge my stuff.

      1. Are there still airlines that let you bring the battery? On every flight I’ve taken recently, the batteries have been banned for both carry-on and checked bags.

        1. Yeah, you can’t check them but they’re fine on all airlines in the main cabin. That’s why they pop out.

        2. The batteries in the Away bags were never banned in cabins. They’re the same batteries found in computers , cell phones and video games. There’s no way any airline ever could or would completely ban all these electronic devices in the cabin. They are banned in checked luggage. It’s no big deal because the battery in the Away bag is easily removable if you need to check it.

        3. Um, what airline doesn’t allow you to bring a battery as a carry on? People wouldn’t be able to travel with computers if that were the case.

    13. I love my Travelpro. I have an old one but it’s held up through 10+ years of travel (infrequent, but still, 10 years).

    14. Seriously, whatever Samsonite is at TJ Maxx for $80. I fly maybe 10x per year and it’s held up great for the last 5 years.

      Otherwise, go with a TravelPro. My mom, a retired flight attendant, is still using the last TravelPro that was issued to her for work 23 years ago. Yeah, they’re tanks.

      Btw, bring a tape measure with you if you frequently carry your bag on. Most of the main airlines have different standards, which you’ll need to look up. You never know when you’ll have a gate agent on a carry-on tear who’ll make you check your 1″ over bag.

        1. I’ve bought several at TJ Maxx (different sizes). I also found a hard side Hartman there that I love.

    15. Tumi is on sale at Nordstrom Rack right now. I have used Tumi luggage for years and have always had good experiences with them. I still have some Tumi duffle bags that I got back in 1987 that I am still using! Their customer service is great!

  7. Has anyone done upper lip hair removal via laser? Would you be willing to share your experiences?
    I’ve tried IPL on underarms and worked pretty well in that I saw huge reduction and hair that did grow back was finer than before. But never tried laser.

    I am South Asian, skin tone very close to that of Freida Pinto, if that helps.

    1. I’m also South Asian (but fairer than Frieda) and I’ve done laser on my face/upper lip. I can’t say enough good things about it. My derm is aces, and he has been doing this for eons, is up on the latest technology, etc.

    2. Watching closely, I’m also interested in doing this (lighter skin than yours, olive toned). Does anyone have experience doing laser in the summer? It’s not clear to me whether its safe to get it done when you’re getting regular sun.

      1. I’m also a bit lighter than asian but have the “perfect for laser” combo of very dark coarse hair and fairly light skin (think Anne Hathaway but a touch tanner, maybe because I see more sun). I’ve done a lot of laser over the years.

        Bikini was by far the best thing I have ever done for myself, followed closely by underarms. Ten years later, I do occasionally shave both but never have ingrowns and can go days without shaving and still be smooth. Upper lip has been harder, but does work. It seems to take more treatments than any other area, though, and timing is hard. I have been getting my legs done over the past 8ish months (on a seven week schedule) and just have them hit my upper lip if it needs it when I’m there. It has made a pretty big improvement over where I started. (I did some upper lip laser fiveish years ago but didn’t have great results…nothing bad but it just didn’t work particularly well.)

        Doing my legs has been expensive (and painful) but awesome! It has cut so much time off my showers! I finally understand how dudes take such quick showers.

        As for timing, yes, staying out of the sun does matter. But you can never fully avoid the sun on your face, so the calculation is a bit different. If you work inside and wear lots of sunscreen and hats when you are outside, I wouldn’t worry about it being summer time (though definitely ask the laser center for their opinion). If you like to tan your face, though, I’d wait. I don’t think I could’ve done my bikini line or my legs primarily in the summer–even if I don’t get sun often, I do like to participate in outdoor sports and do get a bit of a tan because of that. I think it’s a two week exclusion period from when you get sun till you can get laser again, which would mess up your scheduling.

        1. I’m mixed arab/white and tan even when wearing a hat and using perfect sunscreen application. I work in an office and wear daily spf but I like to spend a lot of time outside and in the sun in the summer. I’m also theoretically a great candidate for laser bc of my dark hair and relatively pale skin, but it’s honestly really hard to find advice for my skin tone! Have you had any chin hairs lasered? I also have some I’d like to take care of (see ethnic background lol, all the women in my family have hairy faces).

          1. I have (I have like a total of five across my jaw line, so not many at all) but my laser technician did mention that on the chin (especially the part under the jaw–where I have a couple that grow out of a mole), electrolysis is better. Apparently if you go too far towards your neck it can cause more hair to grow than it zaps. She got the ones on my jaw that face forward but didn’t want to make things worse so didn’t touch the ones under my chin.

            As for timing, I also tan when using a hat and sunscreen but not dramatically. If you are very prone to tanning, I’d probably wait until fall. Start as soon as it’s been more than two weeks since you’ve seen sun. The settings increase over time (making it more important that you haven’t seen sun) and you want to get enough sessions in before summer hits again.

    3. I did laser on upper lip about 4 years ago and loved it. Did it over summer (I think monthly over 5-6 months) and used lots of sunscreen. You’re not supposed to tan—contrast skin to hair makes the laser I used most effective, so as skin darkens, it works less well. I have Ilive skin, dark hair.
      However, it’s not permanent. Hairs are returning. Not as many, but they’re coming back. Trying to decide now if I’m going for a touch up on the laser, or going to electrolysis.

    4. Also South Asian. Try electrolysis. Unlike laser, it is permanent. Best thing I ever did. It is not cheap nor is it fast, but it absolutely works

      1. +1. I’m also South Asian and did electrolysis for my upper lip and sideburns a few years ago. Worked great and now I just touch up occasionally with my tinkle razor. I was told laser wouldn’t work as well given how fine those hairs were.

    5. Hairy faced South Asian with a medium olive skin.

      LOVED laser for my face- I did upperlip, sideburns, and a few around the chin area. They wouldn’t go too close to the eye where the hair is thin enough to not really notice. I had 6 sessions for a while and saw significant improvement, went for another 6 a year later and since then I am mostly hair free. I did mine a while ago when the technology wasn’t great so you may be able to get it cleared up in fewer sessions.

      Before laser I used to have a regular mustache, even with waxing i could go max a week without hair. After laser, I do need touchups every 3/5 months or so. I bought an at-home laser from costco a couple years ago which i use for about 10/15 minutes when i start noticing the hair.

      I did mine in the summer and had to stay out of the sun for a day/apply thick layer of sunscreen but otherwise did not have any issues. If i had money/time I would get legs/underarms done professionally in a heartbeat but use my hand-held little machine on it and have seen significant improvement.

  8. If you had a less-than-ideal childhood and grew up to have a “normal” life, do you ever resent the fact that your spouse and/or children don’t appreciate everything they have? I am so sick of hearing my pampered upper-middle-class husband and child complaining about how rough their lives are. They have no right to be unhappy about anything, ever–they have a roof over their heads, adequate medical care, enough to eat, and a loving and supportive family. They are not deprived just because they have to mow the lawn, do the laundry, clean the bathroom, do homework correctly, or eat the homemade gourmet dinner that I am serving. Arrrgh.

    1. I could kind of think this, but I also think that the power to change this and manage the messaging in my house belongs to me.

      I recently took my family to where my family is from (poor, poor, poor; schools are awful; the crime of despair is bad; by world standards though it has paved roads and electricity but you can’t drink the water). DH was shocked that the sole hotel in town wasn’t the Ritz. It is one of the poorest counties in the country; how much would you invest in a hotel there?! How much money is there to be made that they aren’t already making? We are so lucky to even have a hotel!!! [Sadly, the McDonalds didn’t make it; that gives you an idea how bad it is — McDonalds are about the most viable franchise there is.]

      I think it was an eye opening weekend for them. Need to go back.

    2. Omg get help. “They have no right to be unhappy about anything ever” because their basic life needs are met? This is toxic and ridiculous and you need to get therapy because, spoiler alert, a mom who resents you and thinks your spoiled because you behave like a normal human is not a recipe for a healthy childhood or marriage.

      1. +1 to this. Honestly, if you think that way in your marriage, you’re introducing a lot of bitterness and toxicity. Yes, some people have easier times than others, but no one on this earth is free of struggles (and ones you may know nothing about).

      2. +1 This is toxic AF. You don’t say they don’t seem to adequately appreciate their privilege. You don’t say you want to instill a sense of gratitude. You say your kids have no right to be unhappy. About anything. Ever. That’s going to screw them up majorly. And it’s also going to make them feel like you can’t be trusted when something is a problem because you’ll be condescending and dismissive.

      3. Totally agree with this, and I grew up in a similar situation to you, OP. I had an awful, emotionally abusive childhood in a poor, alcoholic/drug addicted household. I’m now living an upper middle class life and it really frustrates me when my kid complains about something comparatively minor or says “we should just buy a new one” just because she doesn’t like the perfectly good old one.

        But. I don’t take it out on her. She doesn’t know anything other than the life she’s living. She hasn’t gone from poverty to wealth or from chaos to stability. All she knows is comfort and stability. Thank god. Her problems are still real to her, and how I react to them matters. One of the things that was really hard about my childhood was how dismissive my parents were of my feelings. I won’t do the same to my child.

        I try to model gratitude. I try to remember that my child is a child. We all come from different places and have different perspectives. If your husband and kids have different lived experiences from you, you can’t expect them to have the same perspective.

        1. +1 to “her problems are still real to her”

          OP I get that you’re frustrated, but you need to do some work on you. Thinking of your spouse and your child this way is damaging you and them!

          1. +1. OP and anon at 11:09, I grew up like you. I sometimes find traces of OP’s thinking in mine, and I have been through (and am probably still on) that journey to change my thought process. It is toxic, it is within your power to reframe it, and you should 100% do it. Life on the other side is really great.

        2. My parents *still* are dismissive of my feelings (I’m 30) and trust me, it has very much impacted our relationship. OP, you need to work on this now before you actually do give your children problems they’ll have to work through the rest of their lives.

      4. I agree with this. Please get some help before you fracture your family relationships over this.

        And I invite you to consider re-framing your reaction to your family’s much-better circumstances by seeing it as a chance to re-experience your growing up years in a “normal” context. I had a difficult childhood, too, and every time I was able to give something to my son that I didn’t have, it was like I was giving it to my younger self, and it felt healing instead of resentful.

        1. Oh, I actually do feel this way–I love being able to give my child all the wonderful experiences she gets to have! I just wish my family could learn to enjoy life instead of being ridiculously miserable all the time.

          1. But you seem so out of touch with normal preteen/teenage behavior. An adolescent who whines about doing chores or not being able to go out with her friends on a school night is not “ridiculously miserable all the time.” She’s normal! Do you know any other kids her age? I feel like (from your description anyway) your daughter is very, very typical, so maybe getting to know some of her similarly-privileged classmates and friends and seeing how much they whine would help you put this in perspective.

          2. I am a person who tends towards anxiety and catastrophizing. My former husband would get SO MAD when I was upset, which of course made me more upset and unhappy.

            My current sweet husband refuses to take any of that on. When I’m ranting and raving he smiles, he hugs me, he chuckles and says “you’re hilarious.” It is exactly what I need and it is so much better than shaming me for my feelings.

            Seriously. If you chuckle and say “you’re hilarious” when she’s complaining, it will defuse the situation, it will make her feel loved and secure, and it will have the added benefit of probably making her madder in the short term. ;)

          3. Yeah, no, telling your kid she’s hilarious when she’s trying to talk about her problems is not going to help anybody.

          4. Huh? I think saying “you’re hilarious” to someone who is talking about a very-real-to-them problem IS shaming their feelings, or at the very least dismissing them. It might work between a married couple (although I wouldn’t react well to my husband telling me that when I was upset about something) but I think the kid-parent relationship is very different than the relationship between spouses. Kids need their parents to care about their problems, however trivial. Our brains aren’t fully developed until something like age 25. It’s developmentally appropriate for kids to be upset about things most adult would consider minor and if we blow them off we’re not giving them the support they need. You can be supportive while still talking about the bigger picture/giving them some perspective. Saying “you’re hilarious” just seems so incredibly dismissive to me.

          5. YMMV, of course. And I’m not talking about serious-to-her issues. I’m talking about things like turning up her nose at dinner.

          6. My husband also laughs at me when I am sputtering PMS fury. It helps so so much when I am making a volcano out of an anthill. Takes me from 60 to 5 real quick and relatively painlessly.
            If he miscalculates and laughs at me when there’s an actual issue at hand, he comes correct quickly, since I do not stand for that.
            YMMV indeed.

      5. +1. A “roof over their heads, adequate medical care, enough to eat” is kind of a low bar for happiness, and I’d argue they don’t have a “loving and supportive family” – at least not a loving and supportive mother/wife. You sound nasty and resentful, not loving and supportive.

    3. Yes, I can relate to this. When my partner complains about “feeling like an orphan” because dad favored their other siblings (e.g. only buys them thousands of dollars of gifts for xmas vs. bought their brothers a car) it can feel a bit…absurd. I try to keep in mind that (1) I don’t actually wish the way I grew up on anyone and (2) everyone will find something to complain about, despite their relative privilege. I guess in the grand scheme of things, I am grateful that we are in place now where the only problems we had are very first-world. I’ve also seen the downside of my partner being pampered — i.e. they are not very good at managing money or delaying their own gratification, which has not served them well as an adult.

    4. So your family isn’t allowed to have negative emotions because they are relatively privileged? I had a childhood similar to the one your kid is experiencing, and while I certainly have perspective that my day to day “problems” are not severe in the slightest, doesn’t mean I’m immune to whining or disappointment or frustration.

      Maybe you should volunteer as a family with some charity efforts to help them understand your perspective and their relative comfort, but hearing (or sensing) the message “but you didn’t grow up poor!” any time I didn’t feel like doing yard work would be really off-putting too.

      1. +1. The husband maybe less so, but I guarantee you almost 100% of upper middle class children complain about doing chores. It’s a normal stage of development. No teen is always going to be enthusiastic about mowing the lawn, no matter how great their childhood is/was. Expecting otherwise is unrealistic and kind of silly.

        1. The whining about chores and about being “poor” is mostly from my husband. With my kid, what really gets me is not taking homework seriously (unlike my parents, we actually care about her future, so she should too) and complaining about or refusing to eat the food I cook (growing up I got tiny portions of disgusting food, whereas she gets unlimited quantities of delicious home-cooked food that is tailored to her preferences). And complaining that she never gets to do what she wants to do after I’ve just spent three days ferrying her and her friends all over town to activities.

          1. I was not allowed to refuse food and it wasn’t cooked to my liking. It was good food, don’t get me wrong, but it was made abundantly clear to me that this is good food and it’s my job to eat it to fuel my body. I wasn’t allowed to get up from the table until I finished my dinner, and whining about food wasn’t allowed.

          2. Get professional help. On the good thing “you don’t have to eat what I cook, you are always welcome to make yourself cereal or a sandwich, but you are old enough not to be rude to me about the food I worked hard to cook.”

          3. Gently, this is entirely developmentally normal for children depending on age. It’s something you need to deal with as a parent, but you won’t be in the best position to do that if the normal frustration of parenting is tangled up with resentment over your own difficult childhood. Agree with others that you need therapy, because it does sound like you haven’t been able to integrate your rough childhood experiences with the life you’re experiencing now.

            In terms of your husband, I would really advise therapy there too (in that case, both individually for you and together for both of you), because it sounds like you resent him and don’t respect him, and those are toxic to a marriage. He sounds pretty clueless, and I totally get why it’s frustrating, but you have to figure out a way to deal with that frustration constructively or it will erode the relationship you have to each other. Have you ever told him how those comments feel to you?

          4. It’s totally OK to give your kid a lecture on his/her/their attitude. I had a decent childhood (well, no skiing vacations, no cruises, no international travel, no vacation house, public school, financial aid for camps, no pets) and I give my kid lectures on this stuff!
            It’s not ok to make them guilty or obligated because of your terrible family of origin, but goodness you’re a parent and they’re a kid – they can learn and you can teach them!

          5. Er, it sounds like you have really poor boundaries, and you’re getting mad at HER about it. Why are you ferrying her around for 3 full days? Why are you tailoring your family meals to your kid’s preference??? Let’s be real: martyring yourself isn’t for them, it’s for you. You should really unpack this dynamic in therapy. It’s not healthy.

      2. This was my first reaction, too. OP, I understand your frustration, but I also don’t think you’re being particularly fair to your family. Kids complain about chores. (Heck, sometimes adults complain about chores, too.) While you don’t have to validate every complaint that comes out of their mouths, expecting gratitude at every turn isn’t realistic, either. That said — perhaps your family could make a regular gratitude practice? Even if it’s a few times a week, at the dinner table, have everyone name one thing they’re grateful for. But here’s the catch … try not to judge what they’re grateful for. Sometimes it’ll be high-level stuff, like family and a nice home. Other times, it may be the chocolate bunny in their Easter baskets (true example from my house). It all counts.

    5. What about exposing your kids to less privileged people? Taking them with you to volunteer for a good cause, perhaps?

      Saying they have no right to be unhappy about anything, ever, is a stretch. But you’re right that they should be grateful, and I think you can teach them gratitude without being dismissive of legitimate unhappiness they may feel from time to time.

      1. I totally agree. I grew up very poor. Sometimes it really bothers me when my friends complain they’re “poor” as they thrown down $100 for a dinner. But I just remind myself that they’re not speaking literally, and everyone has their own struggles. I recognize right now that I so so fortunate, and I am incredibly grateful. But did I get in a complete tizzy when trying to sell my very nice and expensive home because the lawn person wasn’t coming when I’d asked? Yes.

      2. My Dad grew up in a poor and somewhat abusive home. He became a professional, married my affluent mom, and raised us in an upper-middle-class setting. I remember him angrily telling me all the time as a kid “you have no idea how lucky you are.” When my depression started showing up (age 13 or so) he would also constantly tell me that less better-off kids just didn’t have the luxury of being depressed (so I was being a princess for being depressed). If I got angry, he would tell me that his Dad would have beaten him up for acting that way. I know these kinds of comments are not unusual, and they’re probably expressing a similar resentment to what you’re feeling now. But I would say that the shame and repression issues have stuck with me permanently. On the other hand, I do (as an adult) also understand how lucky I am. So my parents definitely did something right, i.e. (I think?) not spoiling us and instilling a sense of service and responsibility.

        This stuff is not easy. Honestly, it’s probably a major reason that most people marry/have kids with others from very similar socioeconomic backgrounds (not that it’s a solution, but it sidesteps these issues).

      1. I want to push back on this – there are lots of age-appropriate ways for kids to learn about their own privilege. My parents helped us go through our things and donate them, we volunteered, and we always participated in food drives (even if it was just a couple cans of green beans). We didn’t have a ton of money growing up and of course we complained sometimes, but we were always aware that we had it better than a lot of folks.

        It doesn’t have to be a punitive thing – it can be framed as “we are so lucky to have our home/family/etc. Let’s make sure we share what we can with those who aren’t as lucky.”

        1. true, but this is all going to have to come from OP. for her to complain about how bratty her kid is, without any insight into what she instills in her child, is a little disingenuous.

          without any lessons or training, no, privilege is not intuitive for anyone, let alone kids.

          1. +1 A child isn’t going to understand it on their own. The parents need to be the ones to teach that lesson.

    6. Well, I mean, it’s all relative. I grew up in a very poor environment, but luckily lived in an area in which upward mobility was possible. Someone who lives in poverty in say, India or China or the Philippines, probably would say that I am spoiled and my problems don’t matter (which, held to that standard, I would tend to agree).

      Yeah, my husband is never going to understand how difficult it was to have to spend thousands and thousands of dollars as a young adult on dental care. I’m jealous that he has good teeth and only ever needs a cleaning. But at the same time, I wouldn’t want him to have to experience that because it was awful.

      Ideally, everyone would have only the same problems as your family – when I reframed it as “wow, look at how hard I worked to help build this amazing thing!” vs “these spoiled people don’t know what real problems are”, it helped this feeling.

    7. I guess I read your question is implying that your kids are complaining because you won’t buy them something/take them on a trip somewhere/give them x. If so, I understand where you are coming from. I think it is so easy for upper middle-class people to not realize how un-normal it is to basically just buy whatever you want (or at least most things you want). Having grown up poor and remembering when it was a choice between dinner or gas to get to work the next day or the dinners from food shelves or the holidays where all I got was a $5 gift from Goodwill, it can be really hard to listen to someone complain because they can’t have the new apple watch or $100+ pair of jeans or can’t take some amazing trip.

      Having said that, kids are going to complaint. That is just part of being kids. But there are probably things you can do to help them realize how privileged they are. Do you volunteer as a family? I would consider possible ways to expose your kids to a wilder variety of people, and to realize how luckily they are.

      1. Honestly, the problem is more my husband than the kid. The kid understood when I told her she could only go on one expensive trip this summer. Husband constantly complains that we have no money, even though that is absolutely untrue, and that he never gets to have any fun because we have to do household chores on the weekends (also untrue–we do at least one recreational thing every weekend).

        1. Sounds like the problem is that you dislike your husband’s values and personality. That’s a pretty big problem.

        2. Have you tried explaining to him why you disagree? If he is complaining about money (that you don’t have enough to spend?), I would ask if there are specific things he wants to spend money on that you are not currently and see if you guys can find room in the budget for that. Similarly, maybe look to see if you have room in the budget for a housecleaning service. Just doing one recreational thing a weekend doesn’t seem like much to me; and I would be pretty frustrated if I spent most of the weekend cleaning.

          If he is just complaining about not being about to spend money without thinking about it … I don’t have any suggestions, and that sounds really frustrating.

        3. Rationally, I’m sure that your husband understands that there is a limited pool of funds/time and your family has to make some choices as to how it spends those. If you don’t already, spending some time tracking and planning your budget together is a good exercise. If the goal is another trip, then spending has to be cut somewhere else. Having that written down can keep the goal in mind and remind you both what you are spending/saving for.
          Also, do you share the same philosophy on paying someone else to do things for you? For us, budgeting to outsource housecleaning meant we got our weekends back. Yes, there are plenty of chores left to do, but at least our house is relatively clean.

        4. Could it be a difference in priorities and values for saving vs. spending? I always remember a divorce case I had where dad was very concerned about them having enough money for the kids college and retirement and mom wanting to do more fun things now. He was always telling her they didn’t have the money for a certain vacation or luxury item she wanted. When they were in the process of divorcing and she saw all the financial data, she was gobsmaked to learn they had large X amount of money saved. To dad this still was not enough money to feel financially secure and they had to keep saving. To mom, this was a fortune and she would have already spent half of it if she knew it was there.

          We often debate on her living now versus living later and I strive to find a balance in the middle. Are you and your husband on opposite ends of this? He might not be feeling deprived in the sense that he isn’t grateful for what you have, he may just wish do differently with the same resources.

          1. The problem is that refuses to own his choices and priorities. He will never feel secure until our mortgage is paid off and we have enough money saved up to retire immediately. So we prioritize savings over everything else. Then he complains that we “can’t afford” to hire someone to mow the lawn and “can’t afford” a fancy vacation. Yes, we could easily afford those things! We just don’t choose to purchase them because of his irrational anxiety over savings. He wants to have his cake and eat it too, and I’m sick of hearing it. Don’t complain about the choice you made.

          2. Again, chuckle and say “you’re hilarious” when he starts up with that kind of thing.

            “OMG you are hilarious. You can have anything you want, but you can’t have everything you want! If you want to change your mind, change your mind!”

            Or, honestly, just repeat “OMG you’re hilarious” every. single. time.

          3. Please, please don’t laugh and tell your kid her feelings are hilarious. My parents never took any of my feelings seriously and it deeply damaged our relationship. This is only a good strategy if you want to ensure your kid resents you for the rest of her life.

          4. Yeah, if you tell your kid “you’re hilarious” when she tries to talk to you, you’ll permanently damage your relationship and have a kid who won’t come to you when she has real problems. That’s the last thing I would want as a parent, but you do you I guess. But I know a couple people who had childhoods like this and none of them have any relationship with their parents now that they’re out of the family home.

          5. I think the commenters are right about proceeding with caution with the kid. I’d amend my suggestion to using it on your ridiculous husband, who really is hilarious.

          6. That one is anything but hilarious. He once told me I should make more jokes to make him laugh … and then when I cracked a joke, he got mad.

          7. “Then he complains that we “can’t afford” to hire someone to mow the lawn and “can’t afford” a fancy vacation. Yes, we could easily afford those things! ”

            Here is your script: “We *can* afford those things; we just cannot afford those things *and* saving at the rate you want to save. I don’t care if we spend the money on a lawn service or if we continue our savings rate; I just want you to accept the existence of that trade-off.”

            Then teach the brat kid to mow the lawn. :)

          8. OP, you have a marriage problem. I prescribe individual counseling for you to figure out how to deal with it.

    8. If I decide to procreate, my kids will hopefully not even come close to the upbringing I have and I am fine with them complaining about what they see as nuisances because that is their world. I think it is unfair to tell someone they are not entitled to having non-positive feelings about something because there is suffering in the world (far or closer to home).
      We are all dealt different cards, so I’d teach them generosity rather than guilt over something they had no control over. It’s great to give them some experiences that help them stay grounded and understand that they can use their privileges to do good around them and there is no reason to feel bad because you were born with some assets.

    9. so i grew up privileged like your kids currently are, but my parents did not and they would switch between making comments like you don’t realize how spoiled you are to i want to give you this opportunity because i didn’t have it as a kid. this is something i struggle with now. i live an upper middle class lifestyle largely because of DH’s income (i work too but have made certain choices to allow him to have the primary career) and the fact that i was very fortunate to graduate without college loans and minimal grad school debt. i often feel a lot of guilt for my privilege that can get in the way of me enjoying things, like i still find my day to day extremely challenging sometimes (we have infant twins, DH works long hours, travels for work, no local family, sick parent), but i know that compared to a lot of others i have it so easy (yes DH works long hours, but it isn’t like he or I are working 3 minimum wage jobs to make ends meet, don’t need to worry about money on a daily basis, i have a super short commute, good hours, etc.), so i shouldn’t ever think that things in my life are hard, i should never be allowed to feel tired or overwhelmed, or like i don’t have enough time for things. i try to remember that just because there will always be someone with bigger problems, it doesn’t mean that your problems don’t count. in theory you could probably keep finding person after person who has it worse until you are down to one person who gets to claim that their life is hard.
      on that note, yes, it is good for your kid to be grateful for what they have, but it is totally unrealistic to think that your kid or DH will never complain. my DH often sounds entitled and wants more stuff, etc. I try to remind him of how lucky we have it

    10. You can drown in an ocean and you can drown in a bucket of water. Telling your kids and spouse that their problems don’t matter because yours were so much worse is like telling someone drowning in a puddle doesn’t count, instead of fishing them out.

      1. +1, they will resent you if you continue to frame it to them the way you’ve framed it here to us. I agree that your husband could be more sensitive and your kid could be more grateful. But if you’re going to punish your family for the sins of your parents, you’re not breaking the pattern begun by your parents.

    11. That doesn’t sound like a healthy reaction. You should not feel that way about your spouse and children. I think you should get some therapy for yourself.

    12. Agree with other posters that therapy might help.

      For me, I had a hard time emotionally with close people complaining about inane and minor things (when they were objectively privileged) and was super judgy about complainers for a long time. I initially believed that it was because of the banality of complaining about things you cannot change in itself, but therapy has also made me realize that I am particularly sensitive to inane complaints (esp from SO and intimate relationships like family) because part of the trauma from my (less privileged) childhood involved my parents complaining constantly to me (for all of my childhood) about issues that I really couldn’t help with and was made to feel like I was to blame for their troubles (finances, housework, all the terrible difficulties of having had to take care of the infant me and how they were so depressed and suicidal at the time, alcoholism of other parent, health issues).

      It instilled a pretty automatic response to hearing complaints that I didn’t feel I should be responsible for / that sounded ungrateful for my efforts – a feeling of exasperation, helplessness, and despair, and feeling like I’m not enough / whatever I’m doing or providing isn’t enough.

      Not saying it is necessarily the case for you, but judging and shaming was definitely my coping mechanism for numbing all these desperate feelings and avoiding such situations in the future.

    13. I think it’s always a good idea to tell people where you came from, and try to put their current struggles or complaints into perspective, as well as help them understand their own privilege. That said, saying someone has “no right to complain” because you had it worse is super dismissive and not at all productive! No one’s life is perfect, everyone struggles with something, everyone has bad days, and it’s fine to teach people not to sweat the small stuff, take time to be grateful for what they have, you can’t lecture people into complete contentedness.

      At the same time, it’s important that you don’t come to resent your family just because they don’t have firsthand knowledge of what it means to really struggle. As others have said, you should be thankful that you were able to give them a life where they can complain about silly little things.

      1. Just to add on to this, because I re-read your comment and the bit at the end stood out to me, I do agree that no one should be complaining about having to do chores or homework. If your kids are whining about how unfair it is not to have a maid do absolutely everything for them, I do think that attitude needs to change long before they head off to college. I’ve had grownass roommates moan, groan, grumble, huff, puff, and sigh any time they had to do their laundry, any time they cooked or did dishes, took out trash, or cleaned anything, and it was like nails on a chalkboard! They didn’t even grow up wealthy AFAIK, but they apparently either grew up never having to do that stuff and now act like it’s the hardest thing in the world, or they did have to do it but it was somehow acceptable to do it with such a crappy attitude.

        If your husband is the one complaining, I don’t know how to address that, I’m not married, my boyfriend accepts that household tasks are a part of life for both men and women regardless of income. For the kids, I might remind them that you’re raising them to be self-sufficient adults, and a little laundry never hurt anyone. If they end up successful and wealthy enough to pay for maids or support housewives, cool, good for them, but in case that doesn’t happen, you want them able to take care of themselves.

    14. Hi, me. I’ve been there and want to say yes, I agree, but also that this kind of resentment only pops up for me when I’m angry at my husband for something else that triggered this thought process. I do think your comment is going to sound a little aggressive to people who haven’t experienced the same kind of instability and lack we’ve had.

      As my therapist says, anger is a secondary emotion, so you have to dig in and see what’s actually causing it. For me, it’s often the feeling of unfairness. Like I bust my butt (husband has 7-4 hours in a chill job with awesome perks) and he occasionally acts sad because we can’t do X, Y, Z or don’t own A, B, C. He grew up incredibly privileged and spoiled and his parents still give him fun money randomly, which he kindly uses on our home or us (he’s really a great dude!) and give us extravagant gifts. While it’s kind of them, his parents also gave him a massive blind spot that does not account for the fact that you can’t just have everything you want right now. I get defensive in these instances because I work biglaw and that has allowed us to have some incredible opportunities that we would not have access to with his job (he chose a non-profit field). Yet because he’s accustomed to the lifestyle + currently has it due to our income, his taste is “equity partner” level and not “starving artist” level.

      For background, my parents barely make enough to live in a global south country. We send them money to help them make ends meet and it’s really hard for them and for me, because I feel like I’m supporting everyone else. However, going to therapy (both of us, separately) to learn coping skills has been so helpful on this front. I will deconstruct my feelings as described above and talk with him about why I feel it’s unfair when he says he wants a new house, etc., which to him is a passing comment, but hurts me because it sounds like he doesn’t appreciate how great we have it. In any case, it’s a work in progress for us, but it’s been so healthy. I’ve been that level of angry about the same thing and I’d just encourage you to find the actual emotion driving it and address it with your partner.

      I also think perspective is everything, as someone else said. My husband has visited our home country several times now and watched his friends in his field struggle immensely without steady paychecks and has reframed many of his behaviors due to this. I think it’s a work in progress, but be encouraged that if you make it something you both work on, it’ll improve.

    15. Ha! So true. Yeah, I totally resent my husband for complaining about the most trite $h!t. A few months ago it snowed here a little (like maaaaybe there were two inches of snow that stuck around overnight) and he wouldn’t take the dog out because he “didn’t have the proper footwear”. It literally boggled my mind, because as a kid I walked a mile through legit non-plowed winter snow every single day to get on the public, not the yellow kind, bus to go to school in nothing resembling “proper footwear”. I dunno, there is no answer to this. But my kid is getting the ef out of the house when it snows, and learns how to fold her own laundry and cook an egg for effssake.

  9. Is going into computer science in mid 30s (from Biglaw) a pipe dream? I desperately want something with better hours and six figure salaries while working 9-5 (or less!) generally sounds awesome. I’ve considered the in house route but (based on my experience from secondment stints) I think I wouldn’nt be so good at the politics of having multiple clients, bureaucracy dealing with leval department, and slow upward mobility (understand it’s not all in house legal departments, but I was getting antsy). Am I missing something? Market is hot right now but might change in a few years? Please talk me into or out of this early morning daydreaming!

    For context, no background in the sciences whatsoever, solid humanities major in college (not econ or anything remotely math or business related), but casually dabbled in linear algebra and calculus in 9th-10th grades because I was bored out of my mind in class (so so school district, and formal advanced classes never really transpired). I actually like the problem solving aspect of law but actually am only decent with working with words (after getting slapped throughout the many years of training); I infinitely prefer contracts to litigation documents. And I don’t enjoy the misogyny and subtle racism and politics of biglaw or corporate law, even.

    Financially, I have no student loans from college or grad school, and have saved up a decent portion of my biglaw salary for the 6 years, so I’d be willing to invest 1-2 years in a computer science master’s program if that is what it will take.

    1. If you are trying to escape misogyny and racism, compsci is NOT the place to turn! Techbro culture is a stereotype for a reason.

      Tech grad degrees are very often just spit-shining what you already know and use in the workplace. Someone in your situation would probably need to start over with a BS.

      Source: have an MS in Information Systems.

      1. Yeah, I don’t really think you would like it. I’m not in comp sci but an engineer in another discipline. I know there are coding bootcamps that last a couple weeks/months to teach you coding but I’m not sure their credibility among companies/if they actually hire people from them. A BS would be a good place to start if you really want to pursue this. Engineering master’s programs build off skills learned in undergrad, so they’ll expect that you know some programming languages already.
        Agreeing with Anon at 9:31, techbro culture is definitely a thing.
        You also will not start off with a 6 figure salary right away. The only people I know who have that work for the massive tech companies in Silicon Valley. You’re probably looking at starting in the $70-80k range depending on where the company is. Computer scientists aren’t exactly known for working 9-5 either, especially if you end up at a start-up.

      1. I’m doing something like this now. My first degree was not in science, though I started out with a double major in biology but dropped that part. So, I had to level up my math through calc II just to get into the computer science coursework. Knocking 15 years of rust off my math skills was intense but worthwhile. I had all my other science pre-reqs (an ABET accredited program will require 2 semesters of general physics + 1 other science course for majors or 2 Bio, 2 Chem + 1 other science, which is what I had). Once I got through that, I looked at the required pre-reqs for the MS in Computer Science at my uni and realized that a 2nd bachelor’s was a much safer option. The coursework was almost the same and if, at the end of it, my GPA sucks, I will still have something to show for it, rather than prerequisites that amount to 90% of a bachelors.

    2. FWIW, I am great at math but have an undergrad in humanities (but something like 40 math/science credits). I wish I’d been on the fixed-income trading floor b/c I totally get that (it’s what I support in BigLaw). I know a lot of people who left securitization BigLaw to do that or CMBS.

    3. I think this could be difficult. If you are looking at getting into programming, a lot of companies hire grads right of college or contract work offshore to India. And I don’t think you will be guaranteed a six figure salary, especially starting out.

      You might be better positioned to move to a business/system analyst role. These people work with the developers to and end users to write requirements, support system testing, etc. This doesn’t require coding skills, but you would work closely with the developers writing the code. There are some problem solving aspects to this job and clear, direct communication is important.

    4. Why not work for the federal government and stay a lawyer? Six figure salary and 9-5ish hours. You could try for more stable jobs like at the social security administration or DOL.

      1. +1, from a fed attorney. It can take a while to find a position, but once you do the pay is good and so are the hours, depending on the office.

      2. +1. Unless you hate law, it seems like it would be a lot more productive to explore other attorney jobs. If biglaw and in-house aren’t for you, what are the options in your area? Non-profits? Government (federal, state, or local)?

      3. + 1. I make $165K, have great health benefits, and work 9-5 (and honestly, sometimes less). My work is challenging and my colleagues are very bright and nice. I would seriously consider a career with the government before starting all over with a CS degree.

    5. I’m an electrical engineer and lead teams of software engineers at a gov-funded research lab, to frame my comments. I’d suggest you start with something like codecademy and try learning some coding and see how you like it. (Probability is high you will love it:-)). I might start with Python – it’s a pretty common language now for data science, and being used a lot as an intro language these days. I think for you, rather than going back to school, it might be better to look at some of the training approaches – online (or real-life) 6 month or year long programs that teach you to code. I know such programs exist, and hear that people get jobs afterwards, but am not really up on them. (At my company everyone has a master’s degree or PhD, but, that’s not necessary for coding jobs in general). I do know two people who made the shift later in life (both after PhD’s in unrelated topics) and both did one-year programs to learn to code; both really enjoy their new jobs, too. The TechBro culture is not huge in the gov research lab world, but, my friends from college tell me that there has been a cultural shift in silicon valley in the last few years…not for the better, in their opinions. That said, there’s been an explosion of companies needing people doing data analytics and there are lots of places that probably are too techBro-ey to work. I will say that I’ve loved my career – interesting and meaningful work, great people, and pretty well paying (I started at $80k when I was 23 with a master’s degree from a top school, and make $155k at 39, while working generally reasonable hours and having the security of a gov job).

      1. Not the OP, CantSpellGeekWithoutEE, I just did my first dissemble of a tower computer, to get out the hard-drive (though I didn’t know that what I was looking for) and now that I’ve learned the basics of computer components I’m pumped to check out Code Academy–thanks for the rec! (Zero interest in going pro, just for fun and well roundedness.)

    6. The job market isn’t stable, because coding schools and comp sci programs are intentionally flooding the market to depress wages. The industry changes quickly, and many employers find it easier to hire fresh talent than keep their employees’ training current.

    7. Not to be rude, but if you have no CS or math background beyond “dabbling” in linear algebra, you’d have to start in a CS bachelor’s program, not master’s program. A CS master’s program will not accept someone with a humanities background. For reference, I have a bachelor’s degree in physics, a minor in math (with formal classes well beyond linear algebra) and several coding classes and when I briefly looked into CS master’s programs (admittedly at top schools), I was told I was not qualified. There are coding bootcamps with lower pre-reqs but those only exist in certain parts of the country and I don’t know much about their job placement stats. A six figure starting salary out of a coding bootcamp is probably unrealistic – I would guess they place people in very entry level jobs/glorified internships where your salary would likely be high five figures.

      Second what someone said about lots of misogyny and racism in tech as well. And I don’t know many engineers that work 9-5 and certainly not “less than 9-5” unless they are officially part-time.

      You should go into computer science if you love coding, not because you want some mystical unicorn job.

      1. And if you love coding, you won’t need the degree. You don’t even need the bootcamp. Autodidacts are still getting jobs in tech. Before you spend money, look up whatever “intro to coding for women” workshop is available locally to you to see what you might be getting into.

    8. My IT friends work weird hours, not 9-5. They need to be upgrading systems and troubleshooting when the users aren’t on their computers. That can be 2 in the morning.

      1. IT is not CS. I see several other people on this thread equated them too. But IT Support has totally different hours, salary and job duties than being a software engineer. An IT person might have some familiarity with coding but wouldn’t be doing it on a daily basis.

        1. Yes, but the vast majority of entry level tech jobs are IT. There are remarkably few computer science jobs out there- the vast majority are some variant of coding, software engineering.

          1. I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. I agree that high level “computer science” jobs are rare and probably require a PhD, especially if you’re thinking about something more like theoretical CS research (which is essentially just applied math). But software engineering (coding) jobs are pretty abundant, especially in parts of the country like the Bay Area and Seattle. That’s the kind of job a coding bootcamp would prepare you for. Software engineering is very different than IT/tech support. It pays a lot more and you’re not “on call” to fix people’s computers at 2 am, although of course (like most professions) you might need to work long hours to finish a project.

          2. Software development is not IT, even though many companies (mine included) classify development as part of the IT department.

    9. From what I know from friends who are in the CS field, this is not a career known for stability. Any place I’ve worked that had layoffs (except for broadcasting — and that was because they got rid of most all of the talent and kept the computer/engineering folks who made it sound like we still had a ton of talent, and in that case, they worked those poor people nearly non-stop) any department dealing with IT/CS was the first to go because it was easiest to outsource. I’m not saying this to be cruel and burst your bubble, I’m just trying to help you look at this decision realistically. I know what it’s like to be in a position you are not happy with and think that the grass looks greener elsewhere. It’s best to know what’s really on the other side of that fence BEFORE you make the leap and put a ton of time and money into making a change that may not pan out for the best.

    10. I’m in-house in tech, so I know a lot of computer science people. Honestly, it’s not that cushy – yes the top people are well paid, but they have worked hard to get there, and the lower down people still work a lot of overtime and weekends – there is always some sort of bug in the system that needs solving asap. Also, tech bro culture is very real and there are politics here, too. I like it better than biglaw, and my hours are better (still work a lot, but less impredictability and more control over my schedule), but it’s no picnic either.
      I think when we’re in biglaw we tend to assume everyone else works a comfy 9-5 with no stress, but that’s really not the case in my experience and I have nothing but respect for my non-law colleagues who work their butts off. I honestly would recommend going in-house in tech first if you can, see if you like it, and if you’re sick of law, explore management options – that’s definitely an option at my company – unless you are 100% sure you have a passion for computer science and want to go back to school, incur debt, and start at the bottom again.

    11. You can do whatever you want. See if you even like coding before giving up law completely, though. I recommend a boot camp.

    12. If you don’t know how to program now, you will probably be in over your head in a comp sci Master’s program. There is sometimes a steep learning curve and you will be expected to know a lot, being good in math in high school is not enough of a background. I think the other poster had a good suggestion re systems engineering, or maybe something else adjacent like some sort of technical auditing/risk management/project management.

      1. And I should probably add that I do have a technical job, am well paid, and work 40 hours a week in a nice laid back environment without a bunch of racist bros ruining it. It’s definitely possible, but it’ll take you time and investment to get there. I’ve definitely spent days nonstop working on projects, especially in school, to give you an idea of the commitment to learning it could take.

    13. I can’t speak to going from law to tech personally, but I have a friend of a friend who went from pharmacist to tech. She LOVES her job and I am sure she’s still making a salary comparable to that she was making as a pharmacist at a hospital.

    14. So– I do think you could get away with a job after doing one of those boot camp things. However, I don’t think it would fix any of the problems you are talking about. Source: DH is a software engineer at a start up (that has been successful) in a non-coastal city.

      DH is in management. In our city, there are a shortage of people that have the right technical skills for the jobs he hires for, including kids that graduate from CS programs. Some of his best hires were people that had non-traditional backgrounds, i.e., went to art school or were in the military before going to a coding school. Entry to junior level coding jobs in our MCOL city make $60-80K. DH is in mid-management and makes low six figures.

      Because of the job market in our city, DH has never been concerned about not having a job. He decided to switch jobs last year, and it took him two weeks to find another job. However, stability is not a given at all. He expects to switch jobs every few years– He does a not of development, so once a product is designed and his job turns into maintaining a system, it is much less interesting. He also is constantly learning new languages. Coding is the opposite of law where you get more experience as you get older. Every few years there is a new language that is hip that everyone has to learn, so a 24 year old would have as much experience with it as a 40 year old. As DH has gotten older, he is starting to lean more towards going into management or consulting where his experience means a bit more.

      DH normally works 8-4:30, but if he is on a deadline or helping someone solve a problem, he works much longer hours. Also, as he has moved into management, he is now on call most nights and weekends, which normally doesn’t mean anything but sometimes means he’s working until 3 am on a Friday night to make sure the system doesn’t crash.

      DH has a lot of flexibility and can work from home or really anywhere. However, at the start up level, his benefits are constantly in flux and not really that predictable. His compensation is great, but they keep changing his vacation and paternity leave policies. His office also is growing so quickly that they have issues finding space for everyone– he currently works in a closet.

      So, yes, this is potentially a lucrative career path, but not necessarily as glamorous as you are making it out to be.

    15. Thank you for all the very helpful responses and reality checks so far! Obviously I have very little idea of what the job/culture actually involves (other than dreamily having stared into some Refinery 29 Money Diaries written by 20 somethings working for Google etc) and what is needed to get there (I thought CS masters was like law school. Hahaha sad face…). I’ve been looking into coding bootcamps, but needed the reality check on how much of this daydreaming is anywhere close to the reality! Unfortunately government jobs probably are not in the books for me (non-citizen/permanent resident, my country’s government will pay all of $40K/year for working 7 am- 11pm daily) but I definitely appreciate the perspectives on fields I might better transition into!

      1. Are you in the US? What about state or local government? Depending on your location those jobs may not require citizenship.

    16. I know two people who have done this (the spouses of a friend and a colleague). In both cases, they attended a professional masters program, which is intended to take someone from essentially 0 to a professional programmer in 2-3 years. These programs will be at schools like DePaul and IIT, which have a commitment to adult education, not Northwestern, which has a different focus (outing myself as a Chicagoan). Programming was a good fit for them personally because they are both very introverted. I would go crazy staring at a screen for 8 hours, but they get absorbed and enjoy it. You want to make sure you’ll be ok doing this – it’s part of the job. I know one of these people considered a boot camp, but decided against it because she felt it she would come out with a very narrow skill set which would effect her job options.

  10. I have a pair of real pearl earrings that are sentimental to me, and I’ve lost the backs to them. So I’ve been switching them out with other earrings’ backs, but none seem to fit quite right, so they fall out all the time. It seems like the posts on the pearl earrings must be rather thin. What’s the solution here?

    1. Go to a jeweler. They will measure the posts very exactly and can order you the right earring backs. (Or they can replace the posts if that is needed/desired and provide backs that stay on, but honestly that doesn’t sound necessary.)

      1. Also, at Claire’s or other cheap accessory stores, all the earrings are sold with back and ALSO with these little rubbery pieces that go on the past after the back to keep backs from falling off. You can buy a small package of them for a few dollars. Those might solve your problem.

    2. Take the earrings to a jeweler and buy replacement backs that fit correctly. The backs come in different sizes.

    3. Someone recently recommended Chrysmela backs, which sound like they would work.

  11. Does anyone have any general thoughts on how to differentiate between a rough week at work versus deciding that it’s time for a serious hunt for a new job?

    My career is so niche that changing jobs would mean a massive pay cut and going from good vacation time to essentially none. I’m good at the work and find it varied enough that I don’t really mind the lack of possibility for advancement. I adore my immediate supervisor. My relationships with colleagues run the range from good to bad, though there’s nothing really toxic. For a number of years I’ve expected to be a lifer.

    But these past few weeks have been a stream of petty commentary from out-of-state higher ups who are obviously clueless about what my job actually entails. It’s so defeating that I find myself going home to cry and have chest pains over it; I can’t seem to leave work at work. There’s a reasonable expectation of this accelerating as the work “centralizes” under new management.

    1. You are making some pretty extreme statements and I think before a dramatic job change, or any time you’re regularly so upset you’re getting chest pains, you should go to therapy.

    2. I am so sorry. I’m right there with you — seriously the description of your job, past and present, is uncanny. I’ve coped in a variety of ways, from seeing what else is out there (not much) to deciding to make do where I’m at. My current task is learning better ways to detach from work and its problems. It’s not easy, but I have decided that I need to care less and focus on what I can actually control. Do you have access to EAP? That may be a place to start, to get you in a better mind space for making decisions.

    3. Why do you care what these out of state people think? It sounds like your entire identity is wrapped up in your work. Maybe explore some hobbies? Do you have anything else in your life that brings meaning and lets you understand that you have value outside of what some random person you’ve never met has to say? I mean, I get it. I get way too wrapped up in work sometimes, but it’s just not healthy.

      Sometimes when I have a good day with my family, or I’m out working in my yard and can look around at the stuff I’ve planted, I just get this feeling like everything is going to be okay, no matter what happens at work. That’s a much better place to be.

    4. I am not sure exactly how to phrase this, but… I think you need to reframe your thinking before making big decisions. I hear in your descriptions some tendencies I have, to make the argument about why things are bad and why I can’t leave … to sort of pre-fail myself. But I think you (ideally working with a therapist?) can shift your mindset so that you make the decision from a place of strength and confidence.

  12. I’ve had a sinus infection since last fall (despite sinus rinses, months of different antibiotics, etc.). If you have had sinus surgery, did it work? Did it prevent new infections?

    I have had seasonal allergies since college and only one sinus infection prior to this (it was quickly treated). I’m not sure what went so horribly wrong that I am so sick now (same house, same workplace, good health otherwise). I am sick and tired of being sick and tired, but am told that the surgery is no magic bullet (either balloon or the full-on surgery). Recovery is looked at over the following year and usually people are improved for undergoing it (but that is a low bar, no?), but may need to re-do it.

    Also, did you do anything different post-surgery to prevent new infections? I am only half joking that I’m considering a move to Arizona b/c that is the one place I’ve had symptom relief (in SEUS currently).

    Any hippie / homeopathic / other things that at least reduce suffering? I’ve tried spicy food, bland food, soups, teas. I think that spicy food inflames things more (more output that gets stuck inside my head). Ugh. Blergh. Yuck. HELP!!!

    1. Go to a specialist and make sure you don’t have an autoimmune disorder. Recurring sinus infections are a symptom of immune deficiency. Rule that out before going to the not-evidence-based stuff.

      1. I have an ENT and we’ve tried a bunch of things. MRI shows nothing but gunk in the cheek-region sinuses and much gunk in the eyebrow-area ones. Just waiting on insurance (now into month #2). If they say yes, I want to try something surgical but will be heartbroken if it doesn’t take. Or I get sick again right after it (or gunky from allergies) and have to start all over.

        1. An MRI can’t diagnose an immune disorder. You need to get your immunoglobulin levels tested.

          1. I had my immunoglobulin levels tested, and indeed, they are low. But the follow up was basically, “No
            wonder you are so prone to sinus infections!” Is there more that they can do with this test result?

          2. You should have a longer conversation with your doctor about whether IVIG replacement therapy is right for you. I’m going through something similar, but I’m not having full-blown infections frequently so we’ve held off so far. If your doctor isn’t taking those findings seriously, find a different once (an immune specialist) who does so you know that you’re not leaving any stones unturned.

          3. Thank you! I don’t think I’m suffering enough to warrant IVIG for this alone, but I have some other autoimmune conditions that are sometimes treated with IVIG (that’s the only reason I know what it is), so it’s possible it would someday make sense in the broader scheme of things. I appreciate your sharing what you’ve learned.

    2. For a while as a pre teen I was getting head massages to help with blocked sinuses. It really helped.

      1. +1 to massage. For me it was tight muscles on eustachian tube that was preventing drainage after a bad cold. Find a therapeutic massage place and ask about head/neck/sinus massage.

    3. I had a lot of sinus infections, and did have the sinus surgery four years ago. It’s helped some, but I do still get sinus infections. This year I got screened for all sorts of allergies and auto-immune issues and came back all clear. Unfortunately I have crappy Eustachian tubes and will probably always be prone to infection.

      But to answer your question, I do have fewer infections now.

    4. Ugh, we lived in North Carolina for five months last year and I had constant allergies that turned into a sinus infection. it was THE WORST. Thankfully we moved and I didn’t even care at all that we moved into a terrible snowy cold winter, because I wasn’t sick from allergies any more.

      You’re speaking my language for hippie things:
      -essential oils kinda helped. Make a roller of peppermint, lavender, lemon, copaiba and the rest a carrier oil and then rub that on your sinuses. I just made a new one for headaches that I added panaway too. Revive is a non-MLM company that I’ve ordered from and so far have liked the quality.
      -craniosacrel therapy is a different kind of head massage/treatment that helped me in the past a lot and I think would really help with allergies; I just didn’t get around to it with the sinus infection.
      -mine finally got cleared up between a z-pack and then going to a 10 day silent meditation retreat. :D probably not realistic, but the meditation retreat is about has hippie as they come. It wasn’t really pleasant though, I wouldn’t recommend it.

      1. Thanks — I would use an eye of newt and other witches brew things if they worked. So ready to be over drowning in mucus (and the kind that isn’t draining is slowly rotting inside of my head).

      2. Agree, the Southeast is just THE WORST. After several miserable years here, I’m giving up and moving back out west. I don’t actually have sinus infections, just allergies and nonallergic rhinitis, but I get a surprising amount of relief from running an air purifier in my bedroom. It’s helped more than any of the medications I’ve tried, which isn’t saying a lot, but is better than nothing!

      3. Edit to add – I would recommend a meditation retreat….just not with a sinus infection and not as a way to cure it. It just happened that I had it during that time and I really got to sit with the dang thing and feel it.

    5. I got it last summer and the only time I have sinus headaches now is if I go a few days without adding Pulmicort (steroid) to my sinus rinses. If you haven’t tried that, it’s definitely worth asking about. They’re nebulizer ampules you dump into the rinse and have SO much more of the steroid then Rhinocort or any OTC spray. I can feel a difference within a few hours.

      1. Thanks — I asked about the hippie stuff b/c I am willing to try things while I wait for insurance approvals. This may be a big help (or at least not hurt). The first time I did it was like drowning in saline.

        1. Yep, it sucks. It’s more or less like drowning yourself. But the relief is worth it, for me at least. Adding the steroid made a huge difference for how I felt. But be 150% SURE you’re using distilled or sterile water. Do not use tap water for rinses.

    6. Sinus surgery won’t prevent future sinus infections.
      I had sinus surgery in college after not being able to breathe through my nose for a year. It helped tremendously.
      Later I started getting recurring sinus infections and/or strep throat in the fall. My doctor recommended taking Flonase every morning and Zyrtec every night, and in the couple of years since then, I haven’t gotten sick (knock on wood).

    7. I found that using a daily steroid nasal spray (like QNasl) is a huge help. There are many over the counter products (Flonase, Nasacort) that might be worth a try. They are not like the amazing but evil Afrin (dependence) in terms of immediate relief, but with daily use they work for me.

    8. I have had such bad sinus issues that my nickname is “snot-gurgle.” So believe me when I say there is nothing better than staying hydrated, particularly with steaming hot tea.
      I would recommend Flonase, though. It’s pretty good, if you don’t have too much gunk preventing it from getting up there.

    9. Late to this thread, but have you seen an allergist and/or tried allergy shots? If this is allergy related you could try that route first before moving on to surgery.

  13. How much water do you drink each day? Lately I’ve been drinking too much caffeine, not enough water. I think perhaps it’s a reason I’m getting a lot of headaches and a more frequent migraines lately. So yesterday I ordered a 40 ounce Hydroflask and am setting new water goals.

    1. My goal is close to a gallon. I have a 24 ounce camelbak and aim to drink 5 a day. 3 at work, 2 at home.

    2. I aim for 2 liters a day. I’ve been trying to cut out caffeine for health reasons, and I’m down to a few sips of soda per day to wean me off slowly. Some mornings I have an herbal tea, but don’t count that towards my water consumption.

      I do find that caffeine helps with migraines to a point, but only if I’m already adequately hydrated.

      There are some popular water-tracking apps, I think there was a Lifehacker article about it.

      1. Agree about caffeine helping with migraines, but I totally abuse it. And I get caught in a loop where the “bad” food is probably causing me to have a headache but I think that the “bad” food is going to help – bad food being sugar, baked goods, coke. I’m trying to break the loop without total elimination because all or nothing doesn’t work for me.

    3. I try to get 77 oz a day. I have an app called plant nanny, so I feed my plant water whenever I drink (and then feel guilty when I see it looking all sickly and parched). I try to front load some of water drinking during the day when I’m more active (walking around, working out, etc.), and less in the evening because otherwise I pee all night.

    4. If you’re setting high hydration goals, consider whether you’ll also need to up your electrolytes. I didn’t, and my doctor had to explain this to me.

      1. Solid consideration and very timely – my best friend just made me take an electrolyte pill yesterday. I have a bottle sitting in my amazon cart right now.

    5. I aim for at least 60 oz. I hate drinking water and chugging it at set times is about the only way I ever do it. 12 oz on my bedside table after I wake up, 12 oz with breakfast, 12 oz after lunch, 12 oz next to my desk in the afternoon, and 12 oz with dinner. My husband aims for 2-3 32 oz Nalgene containers a day but I feel like I’d be in the bathroom constantly with that much water.
      I will say though that one symptom of migraine for me is thirst – if I feel thirsty I try to up it to 72-80 oz which helps a lot.

      1. Good reminder! I did know that, and when I’m optimally drinking plenty of water it’s spaced throughout the day. Right now I’m just in a loop where I’m drinking all the other things instead of water.

    6. Can I ask WHY people are suddenly drinking so much water? Has a dr. told you to or is this some fad? A gallon a DAY? That’s 16 glasses a day. Even those of you only drinking 10-12 glasses — WHY? And how are you not messing up your salts?

      1. I aim for 64 ounces a day and feel so much better than when I have less water — healthier, happier and more energy.

      2. For me specifically, it helps with my chronic GERD and it drastically improves my skin. (Water is cheaper than Sephora!)

      3. I’m someone who drinks a crazy amount of water a day – I also work out a lot, so I’m replenishing what I sweat out. I recognize I’m way above the norm, but it works for my body and I drink when i get thirsty

      4. My friend is a professional bodybuilder and does 2 gallons a day. I tell myself, if she can do 2 a day, I can do 1. And yeah, a gallon of water seems like a lot at first, but after a couple weeks? Not really. I’m a runner and always heard athletes should be drinking at least an ounce per bodyweight a day. (so 130 lbs = 130 ounces)

      5. For me, it’s because of a health condition that means I’m always dehydrated and my body doesn’t really recognize thirst. I feel a lot better when I’m consistently well hydrated.

    7. That 40 oz hydroflask filled with water is difficult to lug around in a bag or backpack when you are out and about. So it sits unused somewhere in my home. I got a 24 oz one now, which is not too heavy and easy to hold and I can refill as necessary.

    8. I have a 40 oz. S’well bottle that I drink throughout the day and refill several times. I am super active outside of the office, so I feel it with my training if I go without drinking water for too long. The bottle fits in my bag, but I commute by car, so it’s not a big deal lugging it around. I also have a huge gym bag, so also handy for those purposes.

    9. Probably 16 oz total on a good day. :)

      Just keeping it real over here.

      signed,
      chronically dehydrated

  14. To those of you who practice a religion (esp non-Christian in the US, or non-dominant religion where you are), are you hesitant about attending services or other religious activities lately? Between the San Diego shooting and the foiled plot in LA that made the news yesterday, it’s feeling scary and close. I’m Jewish and I am raising my daughter to know that as her heritage, to love it and be proud of it, but there’s a part of me that wants to just say, y’know, eff it, nevermind.

    1. I get where you’re coming from, but I think school is still more dangerous than religious services.

      1. Yeah, at this point she doesn’t go to school-school, so I guess I don’t get to worry about that yet.

    2. Culturally Jewish. We don’t attend services because we’re not religious. We briefly attended a preschool-parent playgroup at our local Reform temple because we liked the idea of our daughter knowing more about her heritage, but ultimately didn’t fit in with the other people because we aren’t religious and weren’t interested in paying to become members. But short answer, no, I’m not worried. There are mass shootings in schools, movie theaters and concerts all the time and we can’t/don’t avoid those places. A synagogue doesn’t feel any different to me.

    3. Usually I’m the normal, sane, realistic one in my group of parent friends – oh, the chances are low, we’re still so lucky, etc. etc. But this last shooting this past weekend really got to me. And I spoke with my son and (non-Jewish) husband about it, and dropped the kid off at Sunday School and said hi to the security guard and thanked him and cried with the rabbi, and left, and took my preschoolers to pick him up. Then on Monday we went to JCC preschool and I thanked the security guards there. I really don’t know what else to do.

      Re: religions, and especially Jewish, the point is to be in a community, to celebrate good times together and to share the bad times together. Think of the man at the mosque saying “Hello, brother” to a man with a gun. Think of the woman throwing herself in front of the shooter and the rabbi grabbing the gun. I would much, much rather be part of a community than isolated. We’ve all (Jews, American, humans) been through worse and we’ll get through this, together.

      1. At least you all have security guards? Muslim imams are doing exactly nothing mostly because congregations don’t have money. Sure you see footage of NYPD in front of big mosques in NYC but everywhere else in the country, suburbs etc . . . Scary.

    4. i am also jewish, the grandchild of holocaust survivors and the mother of two daughters. the people doing these things want you to say “eff it, never mind” and if we all did that, there would be no minority religious or cultural groups left in the world, which i’m not sure is a world i want to live in. i know it is a scary world out there, but i try not to give into the fear mongering, because then there would be reason for me to not leave the house. think about the positive things she gets from connecting with her religion/culture and what you are teaching her by instilling some of those values in her. and of course all the hugs. parenting in this day and age has so many challenges that did not exist in the same way a decade ago

      1. ^^^^ This, too. I harken back to 9/11 and “don’t let the terrorists win.”

      2. I too am a jewish grandchild of holocaust survivors with two daughters. I agree with everything you say. I also want to add that I think a lot more now about what my grandparents survived than I did before. Part is becoming a parent where I’m responsible for two defenseless young people that mean everything to me, part is maturity (I’m 42) and part is probably the current geopolitical climate. And my ceasing to be a part of the Jewish community would be letting down my beloved grandparents who survived the unthinkable.

    5. I’m Jewish and thought about it a lot at the High Holidays. Our temple (northern CA) has a security guard now, and the Sheriffs have increased their presence around it. I don’t attend temple regularly anyway, but I’m trying to not let it get in the way when I do. I hate this.

    6. Mainline Christian, so there is less risk in the U.S., but I just wanted to chime in that I also think about the potential of a mass shooting some Sundays. As the other commentators noted, services are purposefully open and my congregation in particular often has visitors. I always come down that these are acts of terror and I won’t be moved from something important to me by them, especially given the level of risk, but these are not irrational thoughts and I’m with you. (I have considered how to run/hide there in such an emergency.) My thoughts and prayers (and voting power) are with the Muslim and Jewish community given these sadly repetitive recent events.

  15. I am getting ready to put my house on the market and need to place things into storage for a period of time. One of the items is a heavy antique cabinet and others are bins of holiday decorations. Does anyone have experience of using pods v. getting a storage unit. I think either way that I am going to need help moving the heavy cabinet. Any great resources?

  16. Please help!

    My daughter is fully potty trained. But when she goes # 1, it gets ALL OVER the seat! Sometimes all the way to the floor. I’m losing my mind. This is worse than changing a diaper.

    We just got new “Top seat” toilet lids. A little kid potty sized seat folds down on top of the regular sized seat. I thought this would look better than our character seat. But it’s exacerbating the problem.

    Seriously how do I tell her to sit? I can’t figure out why it’s not just going straight down!

    1. Make sure she’s far enough back, like her whole behind is over the hole. My kid sometimes sits too close to the front lip of the toilet seat and we get that problem. You can also encourage her to move her knees a tiny bit apart, so her thighs aren’t smooshed together.

    2. Maybe she needs to separate the folds a bit? If skin is stuck together before she starts going I think that could cause problems.

    3. We tell our kid to look up. When she looks up, her belly leans forward, so similar to the replies above. Looking up also prevents her from squirming on the seat.

  17. Talk to me about what to look for in a beginner stand up paddleboard that isn’t a cr@ppy thing that will break in a month. Calm water/lake use. Any specific brands or types recommended?

    1. Mine is an xterra. They will have sales pretty frequently for 50% off, so I think I paid $500 for mine. It is great, has held up through many years of use including 2 large dogs on it.

    2. Yes! I spent a lot of time last summer researching this. We have the Honeycomb from Great Lakes Paddle Board but bought it here at half the price:
      https://easternseaboardpaddlesports.com/

      I thought it was a scam at first but it was not. I talked with people at Great Lakes and Eastern Seaboard is an authorized seller. We have the Honeycombs.

  18. Another insomnia question, albeit less pressing than the other poster’s and more out of curiousity than anything else (with a little bit of dissatisfaction the sleep deprivation that comes with big law) :

    How much sleep do you get at night on average? Do you wake up in the middle of the night (relatedly, is it an age/phse of life (kids?) related thing)? How much sleep do you need to feel truly rested? What are your tricks for keeping regular sleep hours? I’ve never been able to fall asleep instantly — even as a kid I needed 1+ hour of audiobooks even if I was exhausted so going to bed at a regular hour is especially tricky for me (tried the getting up at set hours every day and it just cut my sleeping hours to 4 instead of the usual 6-7 that I try to aim for).

    1. 8-9 hours (9:30 or 10 until 6:30). Start bedtime routine at 9 so I have a little time to read in bed before sleep.
      That really is my ideal amount of sleep and I swear I look younger than I did a few years ago in Biglaw, when I was out of necessity operating on 6-6.5 a night.

    2. Following, I’m 28 and still figuring out how to go to bed. My biggest problem is no matter what, I wake up and feel really groggy. Likely the side effect of my nightly meds I take for migraine prevention. But I never know if I’m actually well rested or not.

    3. I average 6-7 hours a night, but need closer to 8-9 (or even 9.5). Fitbit says I wake up a lot but I don’t feel like I do usually. And when I do remember waking up multiple times, I notice a lot the next day.

      To get to bed before 10:30, I really do have to start telling my body it’s bed time and doing bed stuff around 8-8:15. Not getting into bed, but heading that way. It takes me a long time to wind down. So I’ll get into PJs, turn down the lights, wash my face, etc. I have a half hour of medical treatments I have to do before bed and I take that time to sit quietly and read or listen to an audiobook. By the time I get into bed, I’m ready to sleep.

    4. I probably average 8 hours per night. I need 9-10 to feel completely rested and at my best. No reason I couldn’t get more, I just tend to stay up too late/reading watching TV. Once I’m asleep I rarely wake up, but I do struggle with insomnia (although less so since having kids).

    5. One thing I found that helped me was changing my Do Not Disturb settings on my phone. I realized I was doing a lot of unnecessary phone scrolling in bed at night. I set it up so it changes light at 10pm and then at 10:15pm, all my apps, except for a few that you can’t really scroll, go into time limit and I have to ignore the limit if I want to keep using them. I’ve done it a time or two, but it’s a good way to signal to me that it’s time to stop for the evening and head to bed. If I haven’t already changed into pjs, etc, I do it then and then read for a bit before lights out.

    6. I average 4-5 hours a night, if I get 6-7 then I feel great.
      I have been a chronic insomniac since childhood . I don’t think it has gotten worse with age, but rather that I have a shorter window to fall asleep: if you finish work at midnight and eat shower etc by 1 AM then you have a window of 7 hours to sleep if you get up at 8AM. When I was younger, I didn’t work such long hours, so could afford to spend the 4 hours it usually takes for me to fall asleep.
      I took everything: herbal supplements, antihistamines, prescription sleeping meds, remeron, tibetan bowl music, ohm music, guided meditation, audiobooks and the list goes on.
      I only go to bed to sleep, all my home life happens in the living room so that I associate bedroom to sleeping
      I am now following a self-paced CBT programme online called sleepio… I am on week 1 so no idea if the course will work

    7. If I can steadily get an uninterrupted 6.5 – 7 hours, I can conquer the world.

    8. I can tell if I’m off the usual sleep cycle (90 minutes), so in an ideal world I would get 9 hours, I usually aim for 7.5, and my usual luck is to get about 6. I’m trying to make it a priority, but I work unusually early and husband gets home unusually late, so if I don’t stay up sometimes we could easily go days without seeing each other.

    9. I’m pretty sure I’m just hardwired to be an insomniac even though I feel best getting 8-9 hours of sleep. As a kid I had trouble falling asleep for hours and post grad-school my problem shifted to staying asleep for more than 2-3 hours at a time. I’ve noticed stress or excitement can keep me up no matter how tired I am and how much I rationalize that I should just go to bed, problems or tomorrow is out of my control. (The night before the LSAT was god awful and I got about 2 hours of sleep total before my wedding). I listen to podcasts/the radio with a timer to fall asleep and lull myself back to sleep. I try to pick podcasts that are in segments like All Things Considered on NPR or an advice show with different questions so that I don’t have to follow along intently and I can just drift off. It helps me not focus on my own stress but it probably says something about me that I can’t be alone with my thoughts and is antithetical to avoiding screen light. Trazadone was helpful but left me groggy in the morning and then I would skip workouts and be unproductive the first few hours of work when usually I’m a morning person. I do my best when I stick to a healthy routine of sleep but things aren’t perfect: going to bed and rising at roughly the same time even on the weekend, no drinking, exercising several days a week, getting some sunlight, having an established night routine that puts me in bed-ready mode, etc. That said, if someone had truly cracked insomnia beyond the normal sleep hygiene advice, I think we’d have all heard about it.

    10. I probably need about 8.5 to be fully rested, I probably average 6.5-7. I unfortunately have no tricks, I get really stiff/sore from sitting all day so I take a long time rolling out at night, but sometimes that doesn’t finish in a timely manner for me to also go to bed on time.

    11. I average 8 hours but prefer 9 – 10. I went to bed at 10:20 am last night and woke up at 7:30 am today. I was still tired but after a few minutes, I felt amazing. We all need more sleep!

    12. About 7.5 hours on average. 8 hours is ideal. For me, it’s just as much about the timing of my sleep as it is about quantity. I feel much more well rested after sleeping from 11:30-6:30 then from 1:30-10:00.

  19. I have a non-visible disability that causes a lot of pain and other non-visible symptoms as well as limits my mobility, particularly during flare-ups (degenerative disk disease, nerve damage my lower extremities, and an autoimmune disease). Does anyone have experience asking for accommodations at work?

    I’m an in-house attorney and I thought I was doing a good job managing my condition by working remotely on my worst days and on days I have medical appointments but recently my boss told me that he considered my (FMLA) time off to be “absenteeism,” which I took from the conversation to be a warning about my time away from the office.

    I am wondering if I should ask for a formal accommodation for disability through HR? Or will this just make my boss target me more?

    1. I have a disability for which I have requested reasonable accommodations. I also represent clients in employment discrimination cases. I encourage you to ask for reasonable accommodations to protect yourself before your employer takes any adverse action against you. If your disability is used against you after requesting accommodations, I encourage you to file a complaint. Document everything.

    2. Definitely raise the issue to HR. Your company cannot accommodate a condition it is unaware of (and being non-visible, it seems the only way the company would be aware of the condition is your disclosure). I am an HR attorney for a large corporation, and often I find managers do not understand the laws around accommodation and leave.

      1. Thanks. My immediate supervisor is aware of my disability (and I did file FMLA when I needed surgery) but raising this with HR seems like the best suggestion.

    3. I have some experience with taking intermittent FMLA. FMLA is very heavily regulated and legally defined, so it’s not just what your company and/or boss feels like that counts. Is your FMLA time off already set up through HR? If you are just taking time and calling it FMLA without dealing with HR, go to them ASAP and get it set up right. If you are already officially taking intermittent FMLA, I think it’s more of a legal issue whether your boss can consider it absenteeism and hold it against you and you might want to talk to an employment lawyer to see where you stand.

      1. Thanks. I did file for FMLA to cover surgery and recovery. When I told my boss that I had been cleared to return to work, he said that I should just stay home because he was about to go on vacation and didn’t know what to do and wanted me to wait to return to work when he got back from vacation, which I did.

        I then talked to him about my ongoing medical appointments and he agreed that telecommuting was the solution. So I was surprised when he told me that he viewed my time off for surgery and doctors appointments as absenteeism, especially since my surgical leave was covered by FMLA.

        That lead me to wonder whether requesting an accommodation from HR would address the issue or just make my boss more upset.

        1. You are doing everything right, and the accommodation sounds like the correct next step. Talking to HR may indeed make your boss upset, and when push comes to shove HR is not there as a neutral arbiter, they’re there to protect the employer (not your specific boss, but the company as a whole). As someone posted above, document, document, document in case this does not go your way. Best of luck!

          1. Thanks! It’s frustrating because I carry a heavier case load than anyone else in my work group so the negative comments from my boss are completely baseless.

    4. Is your boss an attorney? Either way, push back as FMLA is protected leave. I’d just say “as you know, FMLA is legally protected leave and cannot be considered absenteeism or negatively used against me in any review.”

    5. I am in California and did this with a doctor’s note about my limitations and specifics from the doctor about modifications of workplace conditions (desk set up, etc.).

  20. Is doing an LLM a useful exercise for someone who already has a JD (but not with a biglaw job offer)? Would a Tax LLM very different from a general LLM program? No interest in acadmia, but appreciate any perpspectives!

    1. I only know of a couple of people with LLMs and those are mostly in tax. There may be some usefulness in a specialized LLM if you are looking to go into a niche practice, but I don’t know that a general LLM helps much if you already have your JD and don’t want academia. Source- 15 years of practice in various size firms.

    2. A Tax LLM is different in that you are just taking tax classes. But at least at my law school, which had one of the top two tax LLM programs at that time (not sure if it has changed), the classes are the same. I took some tax classes, and those were ones that Tax LLM students could also take for their degree.

      If you are interested in practicing tax law and went to a lower ranked law school, it can be very helpful. I know a number of people who went to a lower ranked law school followed by a Georgetown or NYU Tax LLM, and all had successful careers – biglaw, DOJ, IRS, etc. (I’m sure there are those who don’t, but this was the pool I know). However, if you don’t want to practice tax law, it is useless. And if you already went to a high ranked school, I’m not sure how much it adds.

    3. Tax LLMs generally add to your market value, especially if they’re from a reputable school. Other LLMs don’t. Are you a current JD student or a practicing lawyer?

    4. No.

      I say this as someone who loved her tax LLM experience and learned lots and made lots of wonderful friends. The only door my LLM opened for me was that I had a cool internship during my LLM program (which was simply a function of geography – I was in the city with the cool opportunity – an opportunity that I couldn’t get in my law school college town; had I gone to law school in a big city, I could have had this opportunity as a JD student). It was that experience that got me my first job. The diploma has been a useful signaling tool (“hey, I’m interested in X field”), but at the same time, it’s not like people are banging down the door to get into tax, ya know? You can absolutely get where you want to be in tax by working for an extra year instead of taking on another year of student loans.

      And here’s the kicker on why I say it’s not worth anything: my current fancy pants law firm will not hire graduates from my LLM program. It will only hire T15 law grads. If you went to a T15 and went on to get an LLM because you really love school, great. But the idea that an LLM will ameliorate a run-of-the-mill JD is patently false. I got here because of the stuff I did between the LLM and now – I am here in spite of my state law degree. Believe me, the only other state law school walking around this office is UPenn. Our partners are adjuncts at the LLM program, and even though we are desperate for associates, they won’t even hire their own students. Yeah.

      LLMs are great if you really, really, really LOVE school. You’d marry school if you could. Nothing makes you happier than new school supplies in September. You want NOTHING more than to spend a year studying the ins and outs of technical provisions of the law that even practitioners don’t know at that depth. That’s why you should get an LLM. But a tax LLM won’t help your career enough to justify the cost if you have to pay for it.

      PS – Yes, I have one of the “good” tax LLMs that are “worth it.” I don’t want to say which one because it’s a very small universe.

      1. This is different from my experience, but I’m sure it varies.

        But I really just commented to let you know that UPenn is not a state school, it is a private school.

          1. That kind of surprises me. University of Virginia, University of Michigan, University of California – Berkerly, UCLA, and University of Texas are all top law schools that are public. If you don’t have a single co-worker who went to any of those law schools, it just sounds likely your firm is very exclusive and even more prestige driven than the normal biglaw office.

      2. If you want to do tax, it’s not a terrible idea to get a tax LLM, but most of the employers that recruit from tax LLM programs are Big 4, not law firms. I agree with Anon – I am in BigLaw, tax, and we typically don’t hire out of tax LLM programs. (We are apparently not quite as choosy though.) It’s not uncommon to see people with LLMs in BigLaw, but typically they went part-time while also working in BigLaw. It’s not a great path to BigLaw.

    5. I have an LLM in Environmental Law because I was considered a Ph.D. and a career in academia….changed course and now it is just a conversation-starter hanging in my office.

    6. Just another voice to say that if you are not doing a tax LLM, don’t bother with an LLM. (Assuming you have a JD from a US school – I’m not speaking to LLMs for attorneys with degrees from other countries.)

      Not only is a non-tax LLM additional cost and time, but in my experience, it could actually count against you because it is not particularly respected. A non-tax LLM was the butt of jokes in both my BigLaw firm and my current place of employment (government/SRO).

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