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Sales of note for 10.10.24
- Nordstrom – Extra 25% off clearance (through 10/14); there's a lot from reader favorites like Boss, FARM Rio, Marc Fisher LTD, AGL, and more. Plus: free 2-day shipping, and cardmembers earn 6x points per dollar (3X the points on beauty).
- Ann Taylor – Extra 50% off sale (ends 10/12)
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything plus extra 25% off your $125+ purchase
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off a lot of sale items, with code
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site, plus extra 25% off orders $150+
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Sale on sale, up to 85% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 50% off 2+ markdowns
- Target – Circle week, deals on 1000s of items
- White House Black Market – Buy one, get one – 50% off full price styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Ellen
Elizabeth, I LOVE this dress! It is cute and not too short. I think a nice set of pumps would better showcase our legs, tho. I will show the manageing partner today.
Does anyone in the HIVE know about the new book from Lisa Taddeo, titled THREE WOMEN? It sounds like we need to read it. Grandma Trudy sent me an article from the NY Times that said:
“Taddeo’s book features one unethical horny entitled guy after another but what else is new? Our current discourse is filled rightly with women’s #MeToo revelations about loathsome male misbehavior and worse, while we simultaneously reassert our roles as their victims, confirming with our nagging weeping and public shaming, or complicity on the patriarchal merry-go-round. But patriarchy cannot change patriarchy, as a leopard cannot change his spots. The time us up and the clock has run out. Men no longer deserve our understanding or tears or time. Until women realize our preeminence, and act accordingly, with its inherent responsibilities, we will never get a grip on our own happiness. Might we shift our thinking, reorder our priorities and discipline our minds in our affairs with men? Can we change ourselves? If we did, the world would change too.”
Wow. This is so impressive. I want the world to change and for US!!!
Grandma Trudy says I should look differently at men. I think I should also. So should all of us in the HIVE who have had to deal with losers like my ex. But now we in the HIVE have a textbook that hopefully tells us how to do it. If anyone in the hive has read this book, please let us know what you think and if it works. I am going to walk to Barnes and Nobel today and get the book and read it! YAY!!!!
Cat
Repost from the weekend thread –
PSA: the new black and white tweed Going Out Blazer (as well as the regular ones) is part of the 30% off promo for Jcrew Rewards members. I think anyone can join the Rewards program (not spend based). Jcrew conveniently omitted it from the “blazers” category that you can browse, BUT you can find it using the search box! Item M0256.
Anon
Is the downtown field jacket at JCrew good quality (and does it have functional pockets)? How is sizing?
Anon
Yes and yes, although the pockets are fairly small. I love mine, it’s a staple in the fall. I find it’s true to size.
Anon
Too small for a typical iPhone?
Anon
The one I have from years ago fits my iPhone 8 plus. This year’s model looks like it has similarly sized pockets.
anon
Anyone here have experience working as an in-house attorney at a major consulting firm (PWC, EY, Deloitte ect?) I am looking for a new in-house position and am in the process of setting up interviews with some of these companies. Basically, I would like to know what your experience is like in terms of workload, hours committed to the job, and the general atmosphere of these places. Thanks in advance!
baseballfan
I work in Big 4 – as a CPA, not an attorney. But I love my firm. It’s high pressure and a lot of hours, yes, but also challenging and rewarding for me personally. I’ve spent 20 of my 25 years working in Big 4. I’ve gotten a lot of opportunities I wouldn’t have had elsewhere.
Anon
I was a tax attorney at a Big 4. On the tax side, you have to really, really, really be an introverted technical spreadsheet numbers person. As an outgoing, big picture person, who, coincidentally, likes to see the sun, it was no bueno. I only knew one or two consultants, and they seemed to have a pretty sweet gig – worked remotely almost all of the time, traveled, low stress, vague corporate-speak objectives.
Anon
Reporting back to thank those of you who gave me beginner sewing advice/encouragement a few months ago – I am wearing a blouse I made to work for the first time today and it feels amazing!
Panda Bear
Congrats! That is a great feeling.
Ariadne
Congratulations on wearing your make! It feels special to know that an item was created by you. I enjoy wearing the items I sew too and I’m looking forward to making some fall items soon.
Celia
Very impressive! Blouses and shirts are really difficult. I only ever did dirndl style skirts and a jumper. I decided after a while to just stick to embroidery…
Anonome
Does anyone have a good style of work pants that are low rise? Everything seems to be swinging back towards high-waisted trends, and I can’t tolerate anything pressing on my stomach. Looking for short lengths, sizes 6-8 depending on brand.
Anon
I have the same issue and have had decent luck with some Loft styles. I also liked many Trina Turk pants that were at the Rack in the spring – low front rise, high back rise to accommodate volume. Right now they seem to only have summer wear which is too casual. Have also been buying second hand BHWM as their styles from 2-3 years ago fit me perfectly. Also short, 4-6, I have to just get mine hemmed – there is no chance of hitting all these points together.
DW
I like Lafayette 148 New York ‘Acclaimed Stretch Gramercy Pants’. I don’t like anything pressing on my stomach and for whatever reason the way these fit are so comfortable. They are $$$ but you can often find them on sale or try Nordstrom Rack.
Paging 'Rettes who rec'd La Bonne Soupe
Thank you SO much! It’s a lovely place and the service was very kind. You really helped us out!
anon
Has anyone done microneedling for acne scars? Any success? If so, how many treatments before you starting seeing a difference?
Z
I haven’t yet but following, my derm recommended like 4 treatments in conjunction with laser treatment for my persistent redness.
Minted Rose
I’ve done 4 treatments so far and I’m starting to see a difference! My scars are pretty severe too.
Anonymous
I haven’t for acne scars specifically, but I am a huge fan of microneedling. I swear it improves just about everything about your skin. I noticed a difference after 2 treatments but I am young.
Housecounsel
I had one session and my face broke out in hives. I don’t know if it was microneedling itself or the serums I was using, but I had never reacted to them before. I had to get oral and topical steroids, so I am more than a little scared now.
Not having it this Monday
I had a client text me out of the blue late last night to threaten to report me to the board of professional responsibility for being “too expensive.” I know it’s empty words, I have billed exceedingly fairly, and this client has never even seen a bill in months because he won’t tell us where to send them, but I’m still pissed that he would even use that as a threat. Why are people such jerks?
Anon
He’s obviously using it as a threat because he can’t pay at all, hence the dodging about where to send the bill.
Ellen
We had a situation with a small supermarket chain up in Bronx County (a part of NYC). They did NOT want to pay our bill when they had to pay WC to a guy who the judge said needed more extensive treatment then we had thought. We said we can NOT control a judge’s decision, and just b/c the judge ruled in favor of the worker, our legal bill still had to be paid. The chain said they would not pay, so we put a lien on their assets and started to execute on them when they threatened to take us to the Bar association. The manageing partner said he knew people at the bar association, and besides this, they had signed an agreement consenting to the lien in the engagement letter. So once we put a notice of sale for two supermarkets into the local newspaper (which was required), the supermarket chain settled their bill with us, plus paid us attorney’s fees and costs, and signed a non-disclosure agreement where they agreed NEVER to disclose our fee arrangement or the fact the amount of fees we had to be reimbursed for b/c of the notice of sale. YAY!!! We win b/c we were prepared, and RIGHT, even if we did not win the WC case.
Not having it this Monday
I can and should fire this client immediately, right?
Anonymous
Absolutely
Anon
Duh, yes. And turn it over to collections.
Anon
Yes, absolutely! Sorry he’s being a d!ck. When people are rude, even when I absolutely don’t take it personally, it’s still draining mentally to have to even deal with it. It sucks.
Anon
Depending on the ethical obligations to continue representation in your state, you may have to jump through a few hoops first. But yes, fire this client and demand payment.
Anonymous
And report it to your malpractice carrier
Anon
Does your firm have a general counsel (internal)? If so, that would be my first call. Otherwise to the loss prevention partner. They will handle this and will take it off your plate.
Not Having it This Monday
Thanks for the support, everyone. Yes, he’s been a challenge client and uncooperative the whole way, and I’m fuming that he’s managed to ruin my day (and I’ve let him) after I worked so hard to try to help him in his case. I know I’m not the first person this has ever happened to, but it is still hard not to take it personally. I feel like the mom in Emperor’s New Groove: “Grrrrr! I need to clean something!”
Ugh -- back-to-school vent
Yesterday, the e-mail went out for the kids’ school open house (to meet the teachers, sign up for stuff, drop off requested school supplies).
It is from 1-3.
On Thursday.
Ugh.
Anonymous
Looks like you’re off the hook for dropping off supplies and signing up for stuff then!
Anon
No, that’s not how it works. Working parents like to meet teachers, sign up for things and drop off supplies. We still love our kids and want to be involved. We just cannot drop things at the drop of a hat during business hours.
Anonymous
Right.
And I guess the world was OK that no dads can go unless they take half a day (except the surgeon dad, who really can’t reschedule his surgeries that quickly; his wife is a nurse, so she could maybe trade shifts, but can’t just duck out for a couple of hours). What if you had a work trip that you could have done on another day? Or a lunch meeting? Or a meeting you couldn’t easily move?
Ugh.
Anonymous
Great sense of humor. Internet never disappoints.
Anon
Right, you’re hilarious. It’s the Internet.
Anon
Woosh!
Anon
Ours is at 2:00 tomorrow– a Tuesday. I emailed to complain and cc’ed several parents in my kid’s class who also work. No response yet. I’m sure that won’t be well received, but it’s time for schools to understand that we can’t go to stuff in the middle of the workday. How hard is it to have an open house at 5:30???
Anon
Why would you CC other parents? That’s weird. Presumably they are also aware of the conflict.
Anon
I cc’ed them because we had discussed it previously and had agreed that someone should request a time change the next time it happened. I cc’ed them so they would know I made the request. Of course they were aware of the conflict, but they would not have been aware I made the request unless I told them. It was helpful because it created an email chain of several responses saying “Yes, I agree, is it possible to hold this at an hour when working parents can attend?” and solidified that I am not an outlier in making this request.
I want to point out that it’s rude to comment “That’s weird” when asking why someone took an action. Either you genuinely want to know why, or– as your “that’s weird” statement indicates– you just want to be judgmental. Try to be nicer.
Anonymous
Have you ever negotiated a contract with teachers? Try it and see exactly how hard it is to have this stuff at night.
Anon
I mean, what did you expect? Stuff for public schools is never going to be scheduled after 5 pm or on weekends.
Eh
Why not? Parents work. I joined our school’s PTA (even though I don’t really have time for that) for this exact purpose– to reframe the expectation that parents, specifically mothers, can randomly be available during the workday. I’ve convinced them to move several of our events to evenings. It can be done.
Anon
PTA meetings and other volunteer activities are one thing, and I agree that it’s nice to move them to a time that allows more working parents to join. But most teachers start their workday around 6 or 7 am. You’re asking a TON of them to have them meet parents in the evenings…that’s like a 12 hour workday, and then they still have to go home after and do their prep work for the next day. And they’re paid terribly in most places.
Anonymous
At my kids’ school, they work late at school once or twice a year. I don’t think that it is a crazy ask.
Inconveniencing every dad and all working moms is a crazy ask.
Nah
They only have to meet parents once a year. School hasn’t started by the time of meet-the-teacher night, so they can do their prep the night before. No one is asking anyone to work a 12 hour workday. I appreciate our teachers a lot, but the whole teacher martyrdom culture is a little overplayed.
anon
This might be a stupid question, but what are they doing at 6 or 7?
Anonymous
In response to the poster asking about what teachers are doing at 6 or 7, most teachers aren’t required to be at their schools until sometime between 7:30 and 8:30 am, depending on the district’s schedules. However, lots of teachers like to arrive early to plan/grade/prep for the day. Before I had kids, I arrived at 6:45am and left between 4 and 5 (contractual day was 8-3:30). Now that I have kids, I wake up at 4:30 and work until 6 when my kids wake up. I get to work at 7:40 and set up the classroom/materials/technology for my class that starts at 8. I am required to be in the hallway once students are allowed into the building at 7:50. I no longer stay late because I have a much longer commute now, and I want to spend as much of the evening as possible with my kids.
Anon
LOL @ Anonymous at 10:51 who thinks teachers only work late once or twice a year. I’m not kidding, I literally laughed out loud.
Anonymous
To the person asking why they need to be there by 7 am: my spouse teaches and the current school day starts at 7:30. In his experience across 5-6 schools, Teachers are required to be in the building between 30-60 minutes before students – sometimes they use that time for admin meetings, parent meetings, prep time, or just to be sure that adults are present as students are arriving.
tesyaa
I would be shocked if it’s not in their union contracts that they are only available certain hours. Back to school night would be an exception.
Anonymous
I’m a teacher. Yes, this is correct, at least in my district. In fact, Back to School night is written into the contract. That said, both my child’s school and the district where I work, notified parents in June of the Meet the Teacher date/time. Further, both are scheduled between 9 and 11 am. Seems like OP was not given advance notice, and scheduling the event mid-day doesn’t seem like the best choice.
Anonymous
Are private schools any better? I thought they were like going back in time to the 1950s, where mom doesn’t work and has a housekeeper.
Anon
No, I didn’t mean public vs private, I meant like school age vs daycare.
Anonymous
It’s school dependent. Our private school does the drop-in orientation from 4-5:30pm and publishes that well in advance. I don’t expect schools to have the same absolute focus on working parents that daycares do, but I do appreciate advance notice and some efforts at inclusive scheduling.
JuniorMinion
The private schools I attended were largely dual income parents – my mom was part of a small minority as a stay at home mom. They had most of their events either at night or first thing in the morning – stuff like bagels and coffee for parents and teachers that went from 7:30/8 – 10 (ie working parents could come for an hour and then go to work). They spent a lot of time and effort ensuring there were ways for parents from all walks of life to participate in something and were especially attentive that some of the underprivileged and / or scholarship students’ (like myself) families didn’t feel like they couldn’t contribute.
And this was in the 90s when a lot of these types of issues were a bit less in focus so I really have to hand it to them.
Anonymouse
That’s very cliche. I worked at a private school and the majority of families had two parents working outside the home. Our biggest draw was that we offered services for dyslexia that the public schools refused to provide. We had evening back to school night and organized care for children during the event.
Anon
The school could have sent out the notice earlier, so working parents could have planned around it.
Anon
Fair enough, I read the OP as complaining about the date and time. I understand being frustrated about the short notice (I didn’t realize Thursday meant this Thursday).
emeralds
Coming at this from another direction, why should teachers be the ones who have to adjust their work schedules to accommodate you?
I mean. I do actually think schools should be more understanding of parents who work, since that’s the world we live in. But I also do not love the assumption that teachers–who are as a field drastically under-compensated, almost universally work significantly more than 40 hours per week, frequently are made to contribute hundreds (or thousands!) of their own dollars to pay for classroom supplies, and are regularly trashed in local and national media–should be the ones forced to stay late. Like, yes, let’s advocate for schools to have more accommodating hours for parents who work, but let’s also try to compensate them for the hours upon hours of uncompensated labor they’re already doing.
emeralds
PS. Not trying to start a flame war. I just know & love a lot of teachers, and see them busting their a**es all day every day in exchange for like, a handful of peanuts, their love for education, and a thinkpiece in a national publication about how they’re asking for too much when they want market wages for their qualifications.
Anonymous
Many of my family members are teachers. The issue of teacher pay is unrelated to the issue of whether it is a reasonable job expectation for teachers to attend one or two open house events in the evening every year. Attending open house in the evening is part of the job. The fact that our politicians refuse to pay them what they’re worth doesn’t make it okay to have open house during the day.
Having these events during the day reinforces gender inequity in the workplace and society. A working mom faces two choices–take off work to attend, which comes at great cost to her credibility in the workplace, or skip it and rob her child of the benefits of having a mom who shows up at school events. Children of working moms are already at a huge disadvantage because the moms who volunteer regularly during the school day have access to all kinds of inside information and preferential treatment. Not showing up to open house makes the disparity even worse.
emeralds
I get where you’re coming from, but these two things are totally related in my eyes. People are asking that teachers work outside of their standard hours, while not recognizing the massive amounts of unpaid labor that they are already doing (see sidebar above re: teachers never working late from Anon at 10:51). This is acceptable in part because teaching is historically a female-dominated profession, that is compensated at a shockingly low rate for the required level of qualifications.
What I’m saying is, yes, let’s make all of this better, but let’s try to address the root causes instead of helping one group of of people (working moms) at the expense of another (teachers, who are also likely to be working moms who will be missing time with their own families to accommodate alternative scheduling). So go to your school board and advocate for more inclusive scheduling of school events while also advocating for fair pay for teachers. Don’t just dump it in the teachers’ laps.
Anonymous
And I am saying, yes, make all of this better, but while we work on the teacher pay issue we need to go ahead and fix the systematic discrimination against working moms and their children. Rescheduling the meet-the-teacher open house is a lot less costly and difficult than getting higher pay for teachers.
Anonymous
Do you have children and a job? It has ALWAYS been the expectation that teachers will have a few after-hours events each year. It is part of the job–the same job that also gives them summers off, allows them to have their own children attend the school at which they teach no matter where they live, and allows them to bring their children into their classroom while they prep after school so they don’t need after-school child care.
Anonome
None of those things are true in my area. Teachers have to do summer training or curriculum work, particularly to keep current on their Act 48 credits. All kids have to attend school in the proper district, unless they’re home-schooled. And bringing someone on campus who doesn’t belong there requires a form that must be approved, and won’t be without good reason (of which lack of baby-sitter is not one).
Anon
Yeah none of these things are true in my district either. They do have a lot more flexibility in the summers then other working parents but summer is short (8 weeks for students, probably more like 6 weeks for teachers) and they work from home a lot on lesson planning, etc. so it’s not like they’re totally free. Children can’t attend the school their parents teach at unless they live there, and kids can’t be in the classroom. All the teachers I know with school age kids have to pay for aftercare.
Anon
Public school teachers have union contracts which stipulate exactly which hours they have to work (including extras).
Anonymous
… and those contracts need to include evening open house.
Anonymous
It’s one person’s schedule vs. 20 or 30, that’s why.
Anonymous
For every one teacher who doesn’t want to stay late, there are 30+ parents who have to take off work if the event is during the day.
Anon
I don’t know, I think a lot of people here are super highly paid Big Law lawyers and the like who are used to 80 hour workweeks and are paid commensurately. A standard teacher workday is usually something like 7-3. Asking them to meet parents from 5-6 pm is asking them to extend their workday by 3+ hours. I work 9-5 and no, I would not be willing to stay until 8 pm, even if it was more convenient for a bunch of people. My workday is my workday, and if you need something from me, I will do it during my workday. Most employees who aren’t very highly-compensated have fairly set work hours and don’t expect to deviate from them except in emergencies.
Anon
Yes.
I would be more sympathetic to a 4 pm meeting time, which is leaving work early, but 2 pm? That’s just cutting someone’s day in half.
Anon
Do you really need to stay the whole two hours? When I have something like this, I usually just go from 1-120 and make it part of a (late) lunch hour.
Anonymous
Not to mention if you work, your kid is in camp during the day or otherwise getting cared for, and that somewhere is often a bit of a drive.
Making all working parents take off half a day (in my school, there are 25ish kids per class) vs having teachers stay late (our open houses are the week of paid teacher workdays before school starts; you could just comp time them those hours, but it is one of 2-3 times a year where they stay past 3:15) seems to be an easy call re balancing hardships.
I know at my job if I can’t be flexible sometimes, I’d be unemployed. This is the sort of thing that could be planned much better in advance and isn’t unreasonable to expect as an annual event for teachers and is one of the few evenings they are expected to be onsite each year.
Anonymous
When school is an hour from your office and you have to pick your kid up at camp you can’t just go on your lunch hour. And it takes a minimum of an hour to get through open house, with multiple lines to wait in etc.
Anonymous
I will say that if you have >1 kid, it often takes the whole time to visit each class, do signups that are class-related, go by the PTA, scouts, chess club, after-school care, soccer, yearbook, etc. tables, talk about carpool with parents, buy the gym t-shirts, etc.
With one kid, maybe you wouldn’t need it all.
Anonymous
OP here — FWIW, our school is a public school in a big urban district where ~25% of kids are on free/reduced lunch. So those parents may not have e-mail or may work hourly jobs in shifts, where this actually takes $ of out their pocket to go to. A lot of other parents chose our school b/c it is close to where they work (the district has some work-day transfer program for under-filled schools), which is in a very large hospital, which I understands is pretty rigid on staffing (so you pick shifts, but you are generally locked in once you pick).
For me, I just have a meeting I can’t move, maybe for an emergency, but not for “stupid school lets me know now that I have this” so I could have had the time blocked off on my calendar.
RR
On the flip side, parental involvement, volunteering, etc. makes life easier for teachers, so it should be worth that one night of sacrifice to have a good relationship. All professionals have occasional evening work commitments.
Anon
Totally disagree. I’m a white collar professional with a master’s degree and never have evening work commitments. Neither do most people I know. The world does not consist entirely of people in Big Law and analogous jobs in other fields. Teachers are paid horribly (barely above the poverty line) in many places and I think this attitude of “oh it’s no big deal, we all have to work some evenings” from women who earn 10-20 times what the teacher earns is really not a good look.
emeralds
@Anon at 10:53, exactly. I would maybe feel differently if this was all percolating out a community for like, shift workers at Walmart or a poultry processing plant, but that is…just not the demographic that we’re existing in.
Anon
According to Business Insider, the average teacher salary in America is $59,850 – which is very close to the average household income. Factor in the amazing pension, and they are doing well enough to work late at night so that working mothers don’t have to take a day of PTO (I have three weeks a year, combined sick leave and vacation) for an open house.
RR
Teachers in my district make between $50,000 and $105,000 a year, depending on education and experience. I have three children and I generally see each child’s teacher(s) 1-2 times per year in the evenings (open house and conferences, or one of those). They are salaried, professional employees. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect that the 2-3 big things a year will be scheduled so working parents can attend. And, every school I have ever attended or had a child to attend (from small rural schools in the 80s/90s) to bigger suburban schools now) has scheduled those things in the evening, so it’s not really a wild and crazy idea.
Anon
Same here, in my area starting salary for elementary school teachers is 50-60k. Interestingly, I work in a market that doesn’t pay lawyers particularly well and most of my small -firm law school friends also make about 60-70k a year, only they work 70 hours a week on salary and are expected to work evenings, weekends, etc. Median *household* income in my area is about 56K, so teacher starting salary is right on par, and that’s *starting* salary. So, no, I don’t think having one evening for back to school and maybe one evening during conferences is too much to ask, and teachers in my state are definitely not paid peanuts or poverty wages.
Worry about yourself
Really? My school had plenty of events for parents after “normal” working hours, like the open house at the beginning of the year when teachers gave presentations to the parents, and the parent-teacher conferences each semester. They were always in the evenings.
KW
Our school does the same. And there are plenty of events – safe walk to school from 6-7 pm two days before school started, open house from 6-7 pm next week, curriculum night in Sept. from 6-7 pm, conferences twice per year with time slots during the day and evening. I’m really surprised to hear so many schools only scheduling events during the day. So frustrating.
Anon
Our school’s open house was 5-6:30 pm, but it was a shock to me. I always assumed that once they’re in K, all the school events would take place during a normal workday.
Anonymous
Actually our son is in a school this year where they do schedule things on weekends and after hours. It’s the first school he’s been in that acknowledges that parents work (both parents) and can’t make things during the workday. So schools that are up with the times are out there, but they seem few and far between.
RR
That’s not true. Our meet the teacher/supply drop off/etc. stuff has always been in the evenings–at two different school districts. There’s still plenty that impacts working parents, but it’s ridiculous to schedule that stuff in the during the day.
Daisy
My school’s “meet the teacher” and “open house” events took place on a Thursday evening at 5:30 p.m. and Saturday morning at 8:30 a.m. We got notice of the dates back in May. This is a public school in a million-plus population U.S. city. It is possible.
Seventh Sister
My kids’ public school sure does schedule stuff after 5 and on weekends!
Anon
Same here. And it’s on a day that after Labor Day and school is closed. So essentially, both parents need to take off work or get a sitter etc.
Anonymous
Yup. Mine is similar. I will be traveling for work. Husband will go.
anon
how do they just send this out like 3 days ahead of time?
Anonymous
IDK — they just do. It’s not like they are worried that I’ll need to trade shifts with someone at McDonalds. I bet the thought never occurs to anyone.
This is why working moms need to be on PTAs (and why working moms won’t be).
tesyaa
Not PTAs. Need people representing working parents on school boards.
Anon
This. It’s not the PTA deciding the meet the teacher schedule for the district, it’s the principal and superintendent and their staff.
I’m on the advisory board for my kids’ preschool and we changed our meet the teacher/ supply drop off to be any time 7-8:30am during the three days leading up to school. Our school starts at 7:30 so the hope was that most working parents are doing a morning drop off anyway, so this requires just a half hour later morning on one of three days that works best for their schedule. Teachers were already at the school for institute/ training days so it didn’t involve much longer hours for them, either. We provided donuts and coffee so parents & kids could skip breakfast to help make it work. We’ve gotten a great response over the past 3 years, so I think it’ll stick, and I’m now trying to advocate for a similar schedule at our public elementary.
In the meantime, I take the day off work to make the 1:30-3 on Wednesday work for my elementary kids. We’re walking distance to the school, so I typically invite other working parents’ kids over to our house for the day and take care of it for them too. (I lean on those parents during the year when I can’t make after care pickup in time, so it all works out.) It has become an unofficial back-to-school bash and it’s quickly becoming one of my favorite holidays of the year – I get to know my kids’ friends and see their classrooms and hear about all the friendship ups and downs. Super fun! (For one day – I’d be an awful SAHM, that ish is hard.)
Anon
Anon at 11 am, that morning meeting/supply drop off is brilliant, and when my child is old enough for elementary school, I’m absolutely going to suggest it.
anon
to be somewhat fair – a lot of teachers are working parents too and maybe they want to be at home with their families in the evening. it would at least be better if it was like at 3 or something so that i could work most of the day and then just leave early. but they should also give a lot more notice of the time than 3 days in advance
what
I mean we all want to be at home with our families in the evening. But once a year we have to go meet our kid’s teacher and I think we can all make exceptions for that.
Not having it this Monday
Or why can’t this be done online or on a drop-in basis? Do I need to be there in person at specific hours to drop off supplies and sign up for volunteer events? We rarely make it to those, so I just send supplies with the kids on the first day, and assume I’m not the target audience for volunteering for workday events. I usually send a note the first day that says I’m not usually flexible enough during the weekday to volunteer for those things, but always happy to contribute money or supplies when needed. I usually tuck in extra when they take up a collection for field trips, or drop an extra box of tissues or clorox wipes or whatever into my kids’ bags throughout the year.
Anonymous
IDK — I have a bit of school fatigue, but I want the teacher to know that we have kids with ADHD and we will really try to work with them to keep the kid on track, but expecting IEPs to be complied with in a vacuum with teachers (especially new-to-teaching teachers) is a bit like hoping for a unicorn for my birthday. Showing up helps. Having them know you helps. Trying to be good players on the same team helps.
But if you don’t care (or don’t show up), it is easy for the teacher just to dial back her expectations Jimmy or Lisa.
Anonymous
I found this too — neither of my kids had IEPs but because DH and I both worked full time, I was labeled “the mom who couldn’t be bothered” with volunteering in the classroom, etc. And yes, in Elementary school, it did affect how the teachers viewed my kids. Of course, my kids went to school on military bases where the vast majority of moms did not work, so that may have had something to do with it. We did “meet the teacher” during the workday but again — military, so we got “free” time off and it was expected/encouraged to go over to the school and “take care of family stuff”.
Aggie
I do find the late notice odd. Our meet the teacher (tomorrow from 8am-10am) was scheduled in early July.
Anonymous
Unfortunately schools are operating on a home model from 50+ years ago that involved one parent working, and one parent being home. That reality changed about 30 years ago–but schools have not. If you ever deign to propose such a change, you are met with a firestorm of “overworked, underpaid–how dare you,” so the conversation can never even be had.
RNMP
Ugh, I commiserate, ours at 1PM tomorrow and is a potluck…
Upper Midwest?
Where is it that you can make an assumption that people will have hot dishes at the ready at 1pm? Do you have a hot bag like Dominos has in your car? Does everyone else at your school?
I am horrified and yet intrigued.
Anon
Potluck foods don’t have to be hot? Most people bring a dessert or a veggie tray, IME.
Irish Midori
Potluck? Oh that is so weird. And inconvenient. I mean, I guess it’s a nice thought and I’m sure the powers that organized it have excellent intentions, but I’d be a humbug about it.
Anonymous
Well isn’t that convenient — get the judging out of the way before the school year starts. Did you just toss together a salad, or did you spend time making a Pinterest-worthy dish that everyone will be talking about? Am so glad my kids are in high school, where I don’t have to do this anymore.
Anonymous
Our meet the teacher was from 4-6 on a Monday, which was reasonable I thought. The notice went out early in the summer and then the teacher called the week before to introduce herself, tell us our child had been assigned to her, and to remind us about the open house.
Seventh Sister
Ugh indeed. That’s some privileged nonsense.
Related: I’d like to push back on the idea that if you don’t go to every meeting, event, and “mandatory” registration thing that your school does, your kid will somehow be disadvantaged. My eldest is starting sixth grade and my youngest is starting third. Both have had really good experiences in public school even though I’ve never even tried to be an A+ parent.
While I DO try to go to things like parent-teacher conferences and open houses, there are some things I just can’t get to because of Life (TM) *or* don’t want to go to because it seems so boring.
And having had both the “good kid” from the teacher’s perspective and the “bad [challenging] kid” from the teacher’s perspective, I will also say that I don’t think either was harmed because I didn’t ever volunteer in the classroom. Some of the mothers were very very smug that they *knew* that little Janey was a biter and little Johnny needed an IEP, but honestly, I never had the inside scoop and it didn’t seem to matter.
In terms of school norms, I try to operate on what I think of as the Man Principle. I join the PTA, fill out all forms in a prompt fashion, volunteer for the odd book fair shift, donate supplies, give money, and attend the booster auction. Near as I can tell, most dads in our little outpost of oh-so-progressive Southern Portlandia just…have their wives write a check or two and attend the booster auction. So under the Man Principle, I might be a crappy mom but I’m a TERRIFIC dad. I’m ok with that.
Anon.
“So under the Man Principle, I might be a crappy mom but I’m a TERRIFIC dad. ”
This. So much this. <3
Anonymous
I am going to have to push back on this. It’s not volunteering in your child’s classroom that makes the difference, it’s the insider status that regular volunteering confers. One of my SAHM friends is volunteer of the year most years at our kids’ school. She knows which teachers are the best, and because of her service to the school was able to choose her child’s teacher every year in elementary school and most of her child’s teachers in middle school, in a district where teacher requests are supposedly forbidden. She knows everything about how to get into the best high school, and has personal relationships with the teachers who write the most influential letters of recommendation. She started an extracurricular especially for her daughter, got a teacher to sponsor it, and got the group filled to capacity with her daughter’s friends. The list goes on and on.
Anon
So I had a SAHM who did the volunteering/teacher selection thing and I don’t think it does your kid any favors in the long run. For one, my mom was super popular with some of the teachers and SAHMs, but others hated her. When you’re spending that much time in a small community, you can’t be best buddies with everyone and your enemies will also be your kids’ enemies. I also think that kids shouldn’t be taught that they’re special and get to be the exception to all the rules. At some point they’re going to have to launch into the wider world where mom doesn’t have nearly as much influence and it will just be a ruder awakening for them at that point if they’ve always had special treatment and gotten what they wanted. I would honestly not do all the things you’ve listed for my daughter, even if I could wave a magic wand and do them without investing any time or money.
Anonymous
“At some point they’re going to have to launch into the wider world where mom doesn’t have nearly as much influence and it will just be a ruder awakening for them at that point if they’ve always had special treatment and gotten what they wanted.”
Yes, this. My mom taught at the elementary school I went to and she knew who all the “good” and “bad” teachers were. in 5th grade I got assigned to the “bad” 5th grade teacher and she told me she was not going to fix it for me (i.e., get me moved to the other teacher). She told me, “sometimes in life you’re going to have to put up with jerks you don’t want to deal with; this will be good experience for that. This situation will be what you make of it.” She was 100% right. That was one of my first experiences being in a less-than-ideal situation and making the best of it. And you know what? The teacher actually liked me a lot and we got along fine. He wasn’t the best teacher I’ve ever had but he was far from the worst.
Maybe it’s the community I’m in but we don’t spend time worrying about all this “insider” nonsense – who are the “best” teachers, how do you get into the “right” high school, etc. This to me sounds like “paving machine” parenting – people don’t want their kids to experience any adversity so they pave the road ahead of them completely flat. Guess what? One day kids leave the nest and unless the SAHM friend is going to somehow get in good at the college their kid chooses, the kid will have to learn how to cope with adversity, jerks, frustration, less-than-ideal situations, etc. Resiliency and coping skills are life skills kids need. Parents don’t do their kids any favors by continually robbing them of experiences that can help them learn how to cope with problems on their own. It literally does build character.
Anon
“Maybe it’s the community I’m in but we don’t spend time worrying about all this “insider” nonsense – who are the “best” teachers, how do you get into the “right” high school, etc. ”
If you watch this stuff play out over time, it doesn’t make that much of a difference. Yeah, there’s a huge difference between having parents with an eight- or nine-figure net worth and parents who are barely scraping by, but so much of it just shakes out over time to about where you would expect, snowplow parenting or not.
Cat
This horrifies me. Yikes.
Seventh Sister
I wouldn’t want that stuff with a magic wand. Most kids like that think they poop sunshine and rainbows, and someday that kid is going to get to a place where their mother can’t help them. My kids need to learn to deal with adversity (within reason) in life and at school. Some people are unfair, some things are unpleasant, sometimes you don’t get what you want (and my super-privileged brats get most of what they want).
Irish Midori
Eh, I think I’m doing my kids a bigger favor by not being an “insider.” Not trying to raise Draco Malfoy here.
Alanna of Trebond
Draco turned out ok and raised Scorpius…
Anon
Seventh Sister, I am going to adopt your Man Principle mentality. I am KILLING it at being an amazing dad! The best that’s ever been. I attend the back-to-school nights, give generously to the PTA, count Box Tops for the class, show up to my kids’ plays and events, do the occasional Book Fair shift, and am always in for bringing supplies in.
My biggest help has been befriending one of those moms who’s up at school all the time. She gives me all the gossip and helps me stay plugged into what’s happening. It’s good to have her on my team.
Also critical has been managing expectations with my kids. My boys know I would love to more visible at their school and volunteer more, but they have a mom who helps kids and adults who are really, really sick (I work in academic medicine) and that’s incredibly important. They’re proud of what I do and understand why I can’t be at their school in the middle of the weekday.
Seventh Sister
Thank you! I feel like there is a a huge double standard about women and men being involved with their kids. While I’m all for supporting and praising fathers, they do not need a medal for changing poopy diapers or a commendation for attending a PTA meeting.
Anonymous
Hi from another resident of southern portlandia!
Anon
This discussion is fascinating to read. I didn’t grow up in this country and when I went to school here (6th grade) my parents suddenly found themselves being asked to show up at school at very odd hours. We were barely scraping by on their hourly jobs and they couldn’t go – they sent me instead. Given I was much older than many of your children being discussed here, I thought this was a perfectly acceptable answer. I went to all the PTA meetings and teacher meetings on behalf of my parents. While at first the feedback directly from teachers on items to work on was kind of scary, everyone got used to it and I eventually enjoyed representing myself. I didn’t feel treated differently or disadvantaged. It gave me a good launching pad for future interactions with my bosses and performance reviews.
Anonymous
I’m receiving a professional award next month and would like to buy a new outfit for the occasion. I’m a size 10 pear and am looking to spend under $200 (preferably under $150). I’m looking for either an awesome jacket (that I could pair with something I already own) or a dress with sleeves. Any suggestions?
Equestrian attorney
I have a touchy issue I’m not sure how to deal with. DH attends a support group for people with depression and has become friends with one of the guys in the group. This guy recently recently suffered a major depressive episode which for various reasons caused him to lose both his job and his apartment, and apparently ate up whatever little savings he had (long stay at the hospital). I’m obviously very sorry for this person, but it has led to this awkward situation where DH wants to help out and I want to be a good person but also draw some limits. I’ve made it clear he can’t stay with us (even though we have a guest room) because, well, I can’t have a stranger living with us for an indefinite period of time. I did agree to him coming by for food and a shower once (he is apparently staying with a friend). But he was back yesterday for lunch and again this morning for breakfast. It’s not about the money – we can afford food and honestly could even afford to give him some money – but I don’t want to end up being this person’s long-term plan and I’m not comfortable with people showing up unexpectedly in my home. How do I strike a balance between not leaving a person I know starving on the streets but not being entangled in a situation I can’t get out of? Guy is perfectly nice, but obviously pretty desperate.
Anon
I’d absolutely feel the same way about someone living with me, and it seems like DH understands your feelings about that.
I guess I don’t see the problem with him dropping by for meals, unless you’re expected to cook/entertain him, which it doesn’t sound like you are. Take out depression and the context in which your husband knows him. He’s not a “stranger,” he’s your husband’s friend, right? Would it bother you if one of your husband’s better-off friend was dropping by for meals? If not, I would try not to hold his depression and the context in which he and your husband met against this guy.
Anon
it would bother me if one of DH’s friends was showing up unexpectedly in my home. i don’t like unexpected guests. i think you are right to nip this in the bud now. i think you need to have a convo with DH about this or it could easily get out of hand.
Anonymous
It would bother me a lot actually!
Equestrian attorney
yeah, maybe I’m uptight but I’ve never been a fan of people spontaneously showing up. But also, it feels like the stakes are much higher here – with “normal” friends I could say “sorry, today’s not good” but in this case the guy might not eat at all. And it feels like it accelerated suddenly – he came by once last week, with advance notice, and then called Saturday night to ask if he could come by for lunch on Sunday, which I agreed to, and then this morning he was like “hey I’m in the neighborhood can I come by for breakfast” and…ugh. I was heading out to work, so no time to speak to DH. DH understands and in part shares my feelings, but feels very bonded with this guy over their common experience of depression and doesn’t want to be the one to push him over the edge in a fragile time, which I get, but we need to have a talk about boundaries tonight.
Anonymous
Say no!
Anon
I’ll be the voice of dissent here and say if in this case he won’t eat at all then you should be welcoming to him. Are you obligated to? No, of course not. Would it be the kind, right thing to do even if it causes you discomfort? Yes, absolutely.
anon
+1
I completely understand wanting to draw reasonable boundaries, but if this person was a friend of OP’s husband without any of the “baggage” (ugh) that this person has, stopping by for three meals and a shower would not seem that big of a deal. If feel like you’re borrowing worry–is there something he or your husband has said or done to make you think that your support is being considered as a long-term plan? Again, I completely support reasonable boundaries, but I also feel for this person who sounds like he does not have a large support network, and no spouse or close family near by to rely on. When people are going through crisis without an obvious support network like a spouse, who can they lean on? Just makes me really sad to hear how you talk about this person.
Anon
Eh, I think dropping by someone’s house to shower is extremely weird. I mean, if he and the husband had gone to play basketball and then he showered at their place before they went out for a meal, that’s one thing. But absent something like that, it’s pretty odd for a friend to show up for a shower.
Anon
Because most people on this board do not have homeless friends…
anon
That’s what I’m saying. Take the actions themselves outside of the specific context and it’s not that weird. Your own example shows it’s not the action itself, it’s the circumstance. It’s only “odd” for someone to show up at someone else’s place for a shower because you presume that the person has their own place to shower in. What if it was a girlfriend who was fleeing a DV situation? Is it unusual? Yes. Is it “extremely weird”? Ehh.
Equestrian attorney
I’m sorry if it sounds that way. I’m really trying to be open-minded about this, but honestly he isn’t just some other friend – he is a person who has severe mental illness issues, just went through a major crisis, and is more or less homeless. That doesn’t mean I think less of him, but it does mean it’s not the same as a regular guy stopping by for dinner – and it feels like we might be his only support system in a way that I am not equipped to be.
Also in all honestly the situation would annoy me even if it was just a random buddy stopping by, but the situation would feel less fraught if that was the case.
Anon
Then suck it up and become equipped to deal with him. This is a real, live person you’re talking about. Help him.
Equestrian attorney
This comment is unnecessarily hurtful. I have been supporting my husband emotionally, financially, and in several other ways through years of depression. It is exhausting in ways I can’t even begin to describe and I love him and believe in our vows but I simply cannot carry another person through this, especially not someone I’m not connected to in any way. I’m trying very hard to find an acceptable compromise on this. And I’m a real, live person too.
potato
@Equestrian attorney. Solidarity. Being the spouse of a depressed person is hard and lonely. Figure out what you can do to help without overburdening yourself.
Anon
Equestrian: understood. The problem is that this person is much more likely to slide into being your permanent ward. You know that if you are not careful, he will end up living with you, and you already know that you’re stretched thin.
Anonymous
She already said she doesn’t like people showing up unexpectedly. Frankly I feel the same way. I don’t want to come downstairs in the morning and SURPRISE there’s someone I didn’t expect to see. If you don’t mind people randomly showing up at your house, cool! A lot of people have a more open door policy with friends/family. But OP doesn’t, as she explained. Has nothing to do with this guy’s income level and it’s weird and judgy to suggest it does.
Also – even if OP were reacting to this guy differently than DH’s other friends, it’s totally fair to do so. This isn’t a guy DH met through his rec league. This is someone from a support group. It’s like befriending people in AA. People form bonds, of course, but the program is pretty clear that you should be careful about boundaries. It’s naive to pretend this guy is just another friend.
Panda Bear
I wonder if you (or better yet, your husband) could reach out to the facilitator of the support group where your husband and this man met to get referrals or recommendations for services that could help this man. Or if your husband is seeing an individual therapist, they might have recommendations as well. Your husband doesn’t have to name the guy to the facilitator if he’s concerned about protecting his privacy, but it sounds like he needs professional social support, which you certainly shouldn’t have to take on providing.
Vicky Austin
I think this is the way to go.
Anonymous
Absolutely this. If the situation is major enough that it involved a job loss, home loss, and hospital stay, and there is fear of “sending a fragile person over the edge,” [is that code for suicide?] the group leader NEEDS to know. A much wider support network needs to be engaged. Your husband can participate, but this is much bigger than his ability to solve.
Irish Midori
+1
Cookbooks
This! You’ve been kind enough to help out as you have, and your husband is a good friend to want to be there for him, but I agree that he needs professional social support. The best thing your husband can do is make sure his friend gets the help he needs.
I hope this works out for all of you.
Anonanonanon
breakfast would bother me. I want privacy in the morning to get myself ready and out the door without making small talk with someone I don’t know. I, personally, would set a pretty hard limit on that.
Like you stated, it’s more about the unexpected guest in your home and loss of privacy than the food. Maybe, if your husband is this intent on providing him with meals, he can take him shopping so he has food he can eat where he’s staying? Maybe he can gift him a gift card to a local grocery store? Meet him out for a meal and pick up the tab? I think if you make it clear to your SO that it’s about not liking having someone you don’t know well in your home that frequently vs. not wanting to help out a struggling friend, and offer some alternatives, he should understand.
Also, if he’s staying with a friend, why did he need to come by for a shower? Someone I barely know showering in my home kind of weirds me out, too.
Equestrian attorney
Yep, the shower thing had me a little worried that the “friend” is in fact a local park or his car. He hasn’t asked again though.
Anonymous
Tell your husband no, absolutely not, and insist he discuss this with the support group facilitator. It’s not helping his recovery to do this. This man is not your problem.
anon
this is about setting boundaries…something I am reading about this morning for a different situation. Can you set some clear parameters such as 1 meal every other day? This way they will understand your expectations and you wont be upset or feeling taken advantage of? I know this is hard….
Anon
You need to stop this now or you will have this guy freeloading for an indefinite period of time. I understand that you’re a good person and want to help and DH feels bad, but he’s not your responsibility.
Anonymous
Depression by itself does not make a person homeless. There’s likely something more going on, like substance use disorders and personality disorders. Draw boundaries and make rules now so do you not become an enabler. Personally, I would cap it at 2 meals out a week, and not in my house (DH friend, not yours). And no gifts of money >20 per week (because it will be a gift). Also zero tolerance for guilt tripping, gas lighting, or excuses (heart wrenching excuses are still excuses), and pointing it out when they’re used.
Equestrian attorney
Thanks, I think this is where I land. We (or DH alone) can take him out to lunch/dinner once or twice a week, but I don’t want him dropping by the house anymore, especially not unannounced.
Anonymous
Surely refractory major depression is inconsistent with employment and paying bills. You have to get out of bed for more than a few minutes to do those things.
Worry about yourself
I’m with you on not wanting my partner’s friends staying with us indefinitely. A friend I also know fairly well might be okay, if they’re someone I feel won’t take advantage of us, because I’m more comfortable setting boundaries with someone I know than someone who’s really just buddies with my partner. Especially in a situation like yours, OP, how well does your husband really know this guy?
If my boyfriend was trying to help someone down on their luck, short of letting them stay with us, I’d set two expectations. 1) He needs to be home for these drop-bys, and he’s in charge of getting the friend what he needs; if I’m cooking dinner for three instead of two, or being asked to prep extra meals on Sunday, he needs to help with the prep. 2) He needs to give me a heads-up when the friend is probably going to stop by, so it’s not an endless string of surprises.
Anonymous
Ha. You all are SOOOO liberal, progressive and wanting to save the whole world, yet apparently that means higher taxes, the market crashing, and omg illegals, right? Because apparently saving the world flies out the window when it’s about YOUR home. I wouldn’t help either but at least I don’t lie when I say — I’m concerned for me and mine, and the economy and market and taxes — not everyone else.
anonymous
” I’m concerned for me and mine, and the economy and market and taxes — not anyone else.
Fixed it for you. You’re gross. You’ve always been gross. You are the sort of person I hope one day suffers a crisis and no one helps you because you’ve spent your whole life being rotten and sociopathic toward anyone else.
Anon
Actually, you have it all wrong. I’m both self-interested and concerned for other people, and don’t see those two things as incompatible on a policy level. I don’t want to live in a gated compound with concertina wire along the walls. I want to live in a society where we all support social services to help people in need, both because I don’t want desperate people on the streets with nowhere to go, and because I don’t want to feel that an individual desperate person is my sole personal responsibility. You are apparently just selfish and want to believe that’s OK and everyone else is also selfish. I hope you don’t call yourself a Christian, as that would make you my very least favorite type of hypocrite. Oh, and btw, the market is crashing mainly because of your guy’s trade policies.
Suburban
+1 to this. Perhaps if we lived in a nation with better social services or protections for workers with health problem or affordable medical care the OPs husband’s friend wouldn’t be in this position.
The fact that you need to rationalize your political choices by calling everyone else a hypocrite is really telling. Maybe you should re-examine your choices here. I know you’re only looking out for “you and yours” but I’d be surprised if “you and yours” were totally impervious health problems (mental or otherwise) that could result in the downward spiral op described.
Anon
I don’t agree with the way that this is presented, at all, but the question is really – do you support your ideals of a more just society to the point at which they make *you* deeply uncomfortable, or do you just want to make other people uncomfortable?
If you’re willing to “give until it feels good, not until it hurts,” that’s completely acceptable, but then understand that your social policy cannot require other people to sacrifice to the point of pain.
Anon
Have any of y’all read “Athleisure, barre and kale: the tyranny of the ideal woman” in the Guardian? It is my life. I keep feeling like I’m getting closer to being “perfect” but I think the “perfect” I’m going towards is just being compliant with societal ideals. It’s a lot to think about.
Anon
I REALLY enjoyed that article, it really made me think about capitalism and the patriarchy working together.
emeralds
As someone who wears athleisure, recently stopped going to Pure Barre, and drinks a lot of green smoothies, it hit real close to home. Jia and I also share an alma mater so we had some of the same inputs in our formative years, which was an interesting/troubling lens to read it through.
Definitely a thought-provoking piece, even though I’m not sure what I would actually change about my life as a result.
Delta Dawn
I read that and was… shook, as the kids say. Like I thought I was doing all these things because I liked them and they made me happy. Spin classes (look how fun!), microblading (now I never have to worry about my eyebrows!), regular dermatologist visits (look how good my skin is now!), a curated wardrobe (I feel so put together!)…. and now I kinda feel like I’ve been tricked. Do I actually like any of this stuff? Then again, my alternative is to put on a few more pounds and have persistent acne and blah clothes… I wasn’t happy with that, either. The article did really make me contemplate why I’m doing any of these things. And I don’t know the answer.
emeralds
Yeah. I read it and was like, “oh f*ck! this is my life!” but I don’t know what else to do while still continuing to exist somewhat-peacefully in our twisted patriarchal capitalist nonsense society, because I feel like so much of the privilege I accrue by being a small-sized white conventionally pretty white woman in Lululemon leggings and on-trend jewelry allows me to also be an outspoken feminist b*tch in spaces where that would otherwise not be welcomed.
And I really do like kale and working out. Just like, for their own sakes.
anon
This makes me wonder whether your outspoken feminism is the thing that’s being welcomed or the whether it’s part of you that is a good fit with patriarchy/capitalism.
Anonymous
+1
Anonymous
Being “an outspoken feminist b*tch” is also part of the ideal woman trope. The ideal woman is thin, toned, sporting a perfect blowout, sipping a green smoothie, and wearing a t-shirt that says “Woke AF” with her Lululemon leggings.
Anon
There’s a reason Andrea Dworkin is hated by so many and dismissed by many feminists as well, even though she was a genius, revolutionary feminist thinker.
cbackson
Literally exactly this.
Anon
I won’t presume to know your feminist views, but is it possible that you’re not actually coming off as any kind of threat to the patriarchy? Again, not aiming this at you because I don’t know your views, but I see a lot of women who call themselves feminists and still hold views that in no way challenge entrenched misogyny or sexism.
emeralds
This is for sure something that I grapple with! Because my life does, in so many ways, adhere to what society says it should look like. And some of the negotiations that have happened around that are not outwardly visible (e.g. who does what chores in my marriage).
I don’t want to rattle off all of my social justice personal and professional bona fides because that isn’t really the point (they exist). So this is something I think about a lot: how do I live my values as a feminist, while accepting that it’s okay to like looking pretty and to occasionally put a green smoothie on Instagram? How do I tease out the things that I am actively choosing, from the things I feel like I should do based on socialization or inertia or the rewards Jia talks about at the intersection of capitalism and patriarchy? How do I use my privilege to advocate for folks who are underrepresented in the spaces that privilege gives me access to?
I don’t have all the answers, and the answers that I’ve come up with may not be right for everyone. I also saw the ending of Jia’s essay as quite ambiguous. These are hard questions that avoid facile one-line answers.
Anon
All that stuff is optional. I’m a working professional with disposable income and I have never been to Barre, sweetgreen, a hair salon with cuts costing more than $40, a lip-filling place, etc etc. I don’t wear makeup, although I do wear some athleisure that I buy at REI. I have never worn Spanx, although it would make me look better. You can opt out and do things you actually want to do if all the pressure and the spending bothers you (which it probably should).
That being said, the article was interesting and there is no doubt it will resonate with many women.
Anon
It’s great that you have transcended this issue– I think the article might not apply to you. The article is more about how we’ve convinced ourselves that we WANT to do these things; that we ENJOY these things. Since you don’t want to do them, this hasn’t happened to you.
Anon
It sounds like you don’t want to do them either. That’s the point – you don’t have to.
anon
different anon. I can tell you that there is a way to stop wanting these things. My friends and I spent our teens and early twenties going shopping, studying Hollywood gossip and women’s magazines. I thought it was normal to constantly want to lose weight, get fulfillment from buying stuff, and seeking male attention/hoping for a boyfriend. At that time, this article would have been such an epiphany to me.
I fully agree with the article obv, and the key for me was to lose shopping (and browsing) as a hobby (I come here exclusively for the comment section), to not own a scale in the last 15 years, and to not touch magazines. The last one is the most important one, it’s central. I don’t read them at the doctor’s office. I don’t buy them for plane trips like I used to. I picked one up when I visited a friend and it was so clear that every page was trying to get me to buy something. This can be women’s/gossip/fashion/fitness/design magazines, you name it.
It’s a self-perpetuating thing, too. By not consuming so much lifestyle-propaganda, it’s been easier to live without accounts on most social media (I admit, there was a pinterest rabbit hole for a few months, but I check facebook once a week and have a twitter for work, that’s it). It is doable!
Anonymous
“…to not touch magazines. The last one is the most important one, it’s central. I don’t read them at the doctor’s office. I don’t buy them for plane trips like I used to. I picked one up when I visited a friend and it was so clear that every page was trying to get me to buy something. This can be women’s/gossip/fashion/fitness/design magazines, you name it.”
This. This this this this this. About 10 years ago I dropped all my “women’s” magazine subscriptions and I quit reading them situationally also, and I have been a much happier, healthier and saner person ever since. Magazines create perceptions of problems and deficiencies so they can sell you products. Everything in a magazine is an ad, not just the full-page advertisements. And, although some magazines have gotten better about this, most are still pushing the idea that there is one definitions of what “attractive” is, with a few token outliers thrown in so they can say “look, we represent diverse women in our magazine!” Even the “diverse” women in women’s magazines tend to be tall, thin, long-haired, clear-complexioned, with straight white teeth, long manicured nails, etc. Portraits of privilege. This is why, in my opinion, women’s magazines are in serious trouble from declining circulation and suffering financially, because they are refusing to acknowledge cultural evolution and most women are clued into the game now.
For style/fashion, I follow bloggers who are my size on Instagram or online and that’s much more relatable for me. Some of them are sponsored but it’s completely different than the messages being pushed by megalithic corporations inside a communication medium owned by another megalithic corporation.
Anon
Haha the Instagram influencers are definitely also being paid by megalithic corporations. It’s not organic and it is the same message.
Anonymous
I can assure you that you and I are not looking at the same “influencers” on Instagram. Most of the people I follow have follower counts around 2k-4k. I’m not following Kendall Jenner or Gigi Hadid. It is absolutely not the same message. Think before you speak; it will get you far.
Anon
I haven’t read the article yet, but I’ve never done any of these things either. Most of my female friends don’t wear makeup and spend a lot of money on personal upkeep, although I’m aware I probably have a skewed sample size (most people are in STEM fields).
anon
You definitely do! I’m envious. A lot of folks here are talking about how they used to buy into these ideas but have moved away from them as they grew older and more secure. I’m actually somewhat the opposite. I used to be very anti-make up, fashion, materialism, etc. etc. I believed that putting effort into your appearance was vain and wrong. (Spoiler alert: it is neither.) I probably got away with this socially because I was socially adept/thin/white/conventionally attractive/hygienic and clean. But as I aged out of environments were there were refuges for more creative, atypical presentations of personal appearance (arts high school, college in STEM major) into environments with more uptight, expensive, regimented expectations (law school, private practice), I’ve found myself pursuing more performative femininity than I ever expected. Part of it is the fear I’ll stick out like a sore thumb if I don’t, even though I wouldn’t have cared/would have fit in with other groups when I was younger. On the other hand, yes, I *do* look better with plucked eye brows and blow-dried hair. Going to a work out class holds me accountable. It’s something I think about a lot, including where to draw the line. The insta-perfect life very much feels like a desirable and sometimes achievable thing among my peers. I’ve got to check myself to make sure I’m not buying something (a product, a look, a lifestyle, an idea) just because it’s on offer.
Anon
I’m the same way. (Well, my haircuts cost $45, but same idea, and I henna my hair at home.) I love, love, love running and do that, but it is one of my favourite things. I like my nice wardrobe, but it’s classic, not stylish.
Sorry, not living my life for other people.
Anon
Continuing: I am very sympathetic to people caught up in this, but it’s not a capitalism thing. There are a lot of people who are VERY invested in having you chase your tail. I am extremely fortunate to have figured that out as a teenager, to have seen people try to lead me around in circles and be “perfect.” It was massively painful then, but deeply freeing as an adult.
It’s also interesting to me to see how actual amazingly successful people live their lives. Not how you think they do, but what they actually do on a daily basis. They all understand that there are limits and act accordingly.
Anon
Recommendations for reading how successful people lead their lives? I started listening to a few podcast that interviewed people like founders of Netflix, Instagram, and other successful startups but I have to say most of what I heard was work really hard and manage people well. Obviously these people are 99% men and probably have someone else doing their household management and don’t have to worry about athleisure or being thin but I don’t love their lifestyles either.
Anon
Talk to them about it. Ask how they delegate, what they focus on in their day, how they put in effort at work, how they divide labour at home. Ask what they let slide to make it all work. Talk to them about how long those things go on for – did they sacrifice exercise for ten years or three weeks?
Anon
+1. I do my own thing and occasionally there is an overlap of “Things I prioitize” and “Things society says women should do”. It’s not often, but I’m ok with being a little weird.
Alanna of Trebond
I’ve never been to Barre because I hated ballet growing up. I go to sweetgreen (or, rather, my husband gets me sweetgreen because I never get my own food). I don’t wear athleisure because it is hideous. But honestly middle class to upper class women today have so much more free time than they did before, and it makes sense that they would take up unnecessary things to fill that time. I certainly feel that way when I am not busy at work.
Anonymous
I strongly disagree that upper middle class women have more free time than they did before. In the 1980s, my mom didn’t have a job other than being a mom. She had plenty of time to take exercise class every day, clean the house and cook all of our meals, be a PTA officer and do a million other time-consuming volunteer jobs at the school, sew all of our clothes plus the costumes for the school play, read novels, and knit. I have to work, so I don’t have time for any of that.
Anon
Yes there are studies that upper middle class moms spend more time with our kids today than moms in the 80s did, plus we hold down full time jobs. We do less homemaking, sure, but I don’t think it translates to more free time overall.
Cb
I was listening to something recently that said that self-care has in many ways become a way to encourage women to be hyper-regimented and restrictive and it stuck with me – early morning exercise routines, 10-step skin care regimes, daily meditation streaks.
Anon
Yes yes yes. It really seems to me another way to make money off of women while telling us that we’re not good enough.
emeralds
YES. (I’m all over this thread, I apparently woke up with Feelings today.)
Worry about yourself
I’ve started to feel like exercise can be self-care. I do feel better after a good barre class, and spin classes can be cathartic if I’ve been stressed out recently. But I’d never wake up at the bumcrack of dawn to do it, it’s always after work or at a reasonable time on the weekends.
Anon
Exercise is definitely an important part of self-care. Paying $40 a pop for barre when you could probably get a great workout at home or in the park with YouTube for free is another subject. You say you feel great after a barre class, but is it barre itself (like you love the exact motions of barre) or the fact that you’re getting in a workout? If it’s the latter, maybe there’s a way you can find a nice free substitute. I realize you didn’t ask for that specifically, but this response is meant as a general reply to the thread as well.
Worry about yourself
Oh jeez, my barre classes are NOT $40 a pop! Not even close! I do barre3 through classpass, and I buy 10-class packages when they go on sale, and having done the math I think I spend about $13-16 a class, tops. To answer your question, yes, I specifically enjoy barre. And spin class. And dance fitness. And rowing. I do them all through ClassPass so I’m not paying out the nose for it, but I would rather be in a studio with an instructor than going at it on my own at home or at the gym.
Anonymous
Intense cardio is my self-care and has been so nearly 30 years now. I ran XC in high school, trained for marathons in college, and now do Orangetheory 3-4 mornings a week. In the brief times I’ve stepped away, I’ve had worse issues with my anxiety and difficulty sleeping. It’s not “the man” or capitalism which makes me need to work out – it’s my genetics.
Anonymous
All that “me time” talk just feels like a way to further push the concept of ideal femininity.
See: manwhohasitall on Twitter. It’s brilliant.
Anonymous
That page is amazing. Thanks for the recommendation!
Anonymoose
Cosign. Claire is my personal hero.
Anon
The article is by Jia Tolentino (who regularly writes for the New Yorker), and is an essay in her new book, Trick Mirror, which just came out. I bought and read it last week and if you enjoyed this article you might enjoy the rest of the book too.
Anon Lawyer
I’m reading it now and really enjoying it. Every essay is very thought provoking.
Anon
She’s actually a staff writer at the New Yorker! Not just a regular contributor.
Anonymous
I didn’t get it. I thought it was clunky, a bit difficult to read, and didn’t say anything particularly ground-breaking. Anyone that didn’t believe that they were riding trends by getting into barre or ordering kale is daft.
Anon
Agree. Thanks for saying it.
Anon
I thought it was clunky and not particularly original too. Glad I’m not alone.
Mrs. Jones
Me too.
Anon
I didn’t like the article because while I think there is pressure on women to be perfect, I don’t think that pressure is coming from kale or athleisure or barre classes. I think it’s the same pressure that we had before, just applied to things that are popular with women now. Saying that the pressure was caused by these trends and that abandoning the trends is the way to relieve the pressure is a step too far. Do many women feel pressure to be perfect in the form of barre and kale? Absolutely. But I would bet my left arm that +/- 10 years those same women would feel pressure based on the completely different trends of that time. This means that it’s not the trend that’s causing the pressure.
Are women allowed to like anything popular without being told that we have to give it up because we’re pressuring ourselves to be perfect? Men are allowed to have trends and hobbies–even trends and hobbies associated with social pressure and toxicity in some situations (paleo, keto, crossfit, P90x, football)–without anyone assuming that the toxicity and pressure are the point of the activity. But when women have trends that in some situations become unhealthy (such as being miserable at barre but going anyway because they want to look cool), the toxicity and pressure are assumed to be the whole point. Reducing the pressure is good. Reminding people that they can opt out of trends is good. But let’s not act like the trends are the problem, because that pressure will still be there next year when kale and barre are out and some new thing is in.
Anon
Idk, this whole article reads a little…fake deep to me. Women are allowed to like things that are popular or utilize new options to achieve things that have always been in society way before capitalism: the pursuit of self improvement, health, and vanity. Capitalism is just doing what it does and trying to make money off of things that already are there.
It makes me think of that Lisa Simpson meme pointing to a presentation: “Hating popular things doesn’t make you interesting”.
If an individual has an obsession with perfection or caving to community social expectations (and it’s usually pretty obvious when the latter is happening), that is a very legitimate thing to work through with a therapist. But to say that we’ve all fell victim to a specifically curated perfect woman image spurred by capitalism is a bit of a leap and kind of promotes an “anti-everything” stance which tbh is also a very specific image.
This whole article should be summed up as “like what you actually like, slow down, and it’s okay not to be perfect.
Anon
I too felt the article was a little pseudo-intellectual and repeated of a lot of similar ideas that focus on post-modernist critique of capitalism and etc. The only thing that made it feel new was that it was focused exclusively on a certain type of upper middle women, as opposed to the upper middle class generally. The writing was good, but a little too convoluted and repetitive at times.
anne-on
I really wish she was slightly older and maybe had interviewed some older women for the article? I get that it is a book excerpt (so probably not reasonable for her to interview others) but I think there is a lot to be said for WHY women do these things. There are very real social and career implications when you conform vs. when you don’t, especially as you age. Women who look like they ‘take care of themselves’ (thin, minimal wrinkles, well put together, etc.) are definitely hired/retained over those who don’t. Honestly I feel like the show Younger had a more nuanced perspective on this.
Monday
I somewhat agree with this. I think the essay was more personal (literally, personal to her) than she may realize. Do an image search for the author–and I say that with no ridicule. I think many of her points are basically true, but there’s also a lot more choice involved than she recognizes, probably because she’s choosing to play along. To be fair, she is under 30, and I would have said all of these things when I was younger too.
Departure from the Ideal Woman regimen requires admitting that you’re harmed by what you’re doing, and also giving up some of the privilege of looking or being received a certain way.
Worry about yourself
I feel that. I used to be one of those women rolling my eyes at women who’d wear Ugg boots and yoga pants, who’d eat salad for every meal and drink smoothies and were always going to the gym or fitness studios, stuff like that would drive me crazy. But then I’d try these things and be like “oh, there’s something to this!” Spin class can be fun! If it isn’t fun for you, don’t go (and before anyone assumes, hell no I am not dropping that kinda coin on SoulCycle, but I am going to local spin studios, knowing full well it’s cheaper to just go to the gym or run outside, I choose studio fitness because it works for me and I enjoy it, and I am being careful not to spend too much on it). Don’t eat kale if you don’t like it, but some people do insist they like it and I’m not really gonna judge them, or try to decide if they’re being genuine.
Like I said elsewhere in this thread, the article makes some good points and I won’t dismiss the whole thing, but I always resent the idea that I only think I like certain things because “the man” tells me I need them to be acceptably female.
Anon
I agree. The conclusion seemed to be saying “abandon trends and things that are popular among women because they’re pressuring you to be perfect”, but I’m going to be pressured to be perfect whether it’s through these trends or something else entirely. Women can like things, even popular things, without it being some sort of conspiracy.
I also think athleisure is a particularly bad example of women being pressured to be perfect. Sure, Instagram influencers do it and some girls and women feel pressure to look perfect in athleisure, but that’s been true of women’s fashion for a loooong time. Athleisure seems different to me because it emphasizes comfort and function, not *just* looks. A prime example of how athleisure isn’t just about pressure and perfection is that lots of people wear it–older women, younger women, students, children, men, busy stay at home moms, fashion-obsessed teenagers, people who have $$$ clothing budgets, people who shop the discount section at Walmart. If it was really about pressure to be perfect, we wouldn’t see so much participation, especially across groups that traditionally have far less pressure surrounding their appearance (students, children, men).
In my mind, there’s no question that women still face pressure to be perfect and that that pressure sometimes comes through trends. But I find it insulting that women’s trends are assumed to only exist because of that pressure.
Worry about yourself
I hadn’t heard of it, so I read it just now. Certain things did resonate with me, like being aware of what the “perfect” woman looks like and knowing that you’ll never meet that ideal. I know I never will, I can’t even fake it. But I’m not wearing yoga pants or going to barre class to be the “perfect” woman. That experience with Pure Barre in the article didn’t match my experience at all, I tried Pure Barre and then joined for a month because I enjoyed it. I wear yoga pants because they’re comfortable and easy to throw on when I’m puttering around the apartment or running a quick errand – in fact I wear them knowing some people have a problem with women wearing them, and leggings, in public; some feel it’s lazy, like wearing pajamas, and others feel they’re too sexual because they’re so tight. I met someone who bemoaned the trend, saying it was sad to see young ladies wearing them around the campus where she worked. I know that women who go to barre and spin class are derided as being annoying and “basic.”
So I went into this article already feeling defensive, but it was interesting how she explained why these things are so essential these days. We need yoga and barre to manage stress, when life doesn’t need to be this stressful. We need athleisure because we expect women to be super busy all the time, even on weekends. And yeah, that’s a good point. We wouldn’t need these coping mechanisms if life wasn’t so dang brutal for so many of us.
Anon
Just on the kale.
I feel like kale is a hoax.
Like, no one actually likes it, but it’s some sort of social experiment to see how many people “they” can get to go along with it.
20 years from now we will all look back and laugh about how we got suckered into consuming kale.
Worry about yourself
I don’t eat kale on purpose, but sometimes it’s in a sandwich or broth bowl that appeals to me, so I eat it as part of that and honestly, if it’s cooked and seasoned and paired well with other ingredients, it’s not terrible.
But keep those kale chips away from me!
Anon
Amy’s frozen meals has a delicious kale and four cheese pasta bowl. Kale is really really good when it’s covered in cheese! But the idea of eating a kale salad is nauseating to me.
Anon
See? You guys are both talking about how you can manage to swallow some kale if it doesn’t taste like kale. No one actually likes kale-flavored kale.
Worry about yourself
Ha, fair! I did once get a broth bowl that wasn’t warm enough and was kinda bland, the kale was undercooked and underseasoned and it was not good . . . but . . . I couldn’t bring myself to be a 20-something white girl complaining about her kale at Panera. The image of it made me cringe.
PolyD
Cheesecake Factory, of all places, was the first place I had a kale salad and it actually was very good.
anne-on
So homemade kale chips (I know, I know) are actually really good. They taste pretty much like when I roast Brussels sprouts and we all fight over the leaves that fall off and get all burned/crispy. The prepackaged ones though are garbage.
Anon
I have made and eaten homemade kale chips. They were ok but there wasn’t a single moment where I wouldn’t rather have been eating potato chips.
Anon
I like kale chips as a vehicle for getting salt and vinegar into my mouth. I can take or leave the kale itself.
Lana Del Raygun
What is a “broth bowl”? Isn’t that just clear soup?
Anon
Haha I agree! I HATE kale!
Anonymous
So, I tried a barre class once and didn’t like it, and all my athleisure clothes come from Target and Old Navy, but I actually really do like kale. The reason I like it is because I hate cooking and preparing meals, and I can make a gigantic kale salad on Sunday (fully dressed, none of this keeping everything separate and assembling day of business) and eat it all week long because it doesn’t get all wilty and gross like other salad greens would.
Anon
I don’t get it – raw kale literally hurts my teeth when I chew it. Maybe I’m just getting old but I pick it out of anything I find it in.
Anon
Big Kale has brainwashed us all! It goes ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP!!!
That and cauliflower. Blech.
cbackson
Ha, I just basically ate an ENTIRE HEAD of cauliflower. I looooove it.
Anon
damn you Big Kale! *shakes fist*
anon
I like roasted cauliflower in my veggie rotation, and I understand cauliflower rice but don’t make or buy it. But when did The Man decide that everything from pizza crust to pretzels should be made from cauliflower (or at least labeled as cauliflower-whatever)?
anon
Because low carb and gluten…
Anon
I make this recipe pretty often: https://www.blueapron.com/recipes/seared-salmon-seasoned-labneh-with-freekeh-kale-dates Actually I sub in kale whenever I need a cooked leafy green that’s a bit sturdier than spinach.
This is another recipe that always gets scarfed down, by vegetarian and non-vegetarian friends alike: https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2016/03/west-african-inspired-vegan-peanut-sweet-potato-soup-recipe.html
I don’t particularly seek out kale any more than I do any other veggie, but it does have its place in my repertoire.
Anonymous
I like kale in a salad! I mean, the dressing is probably part of why I like it, but I still do enjoy it. I’m not a big veggie eater in generally but I do love my leafy greens.
Anon
I actually like kale in a salad! I mean, as long as there’s dressing on it, but still. I’m not a big veggie eater but I do like my leafy greens.
Eleanor Amplified
Now I see it! The fact that my editor demands a kale salad for lunch every day means he has been compromised by Mega Blerg. I must investigate.
anon
I love kale salads – my husband and I have a big one for dinner at least once a week because we both do. And we eat a lot of sauteed kale in the winter – it’s basically our go-to side dish.
But that aside, I think her point about the hamster wheel effect of a chopped salad lifestyle is kind of brilliant. I think that part of it resonates with me because it’s true for both men and women.
Katy
Actually, I do like kale in a salad and love kale chips – the only reason I don’t eat them more often is that any “vegetable”/lentil/soya chip doesn’t have have that many fewer calories than regular potato chips.
Anonymous
Agreed. Kale is nothing more than a bitter weed that some genius decided to market as a super food.
Anon
I tried it for the first time a few months ago because I too thought it must be a hoax and I… Love it (runs away ashamed).
I love it raw in salad and roasted and mixed with rice or another grain. I am jsut a succer for substantial textures and earthy aromas (fall cooking is my favourite) and it turns out kale fits that bill very well…
ggg
Kale, in its natural form, is pretty good.
Kale chips are horrible! They don’t taste good, and are pointy and poky!
Anonymous
I really liked the article and this discussion. And I feel a little guilty admitting that y’all just reminded me that the Sephora sale starts today.
Anonymous
What Sephora sale?!?
Anon
Today’s the day for Rouge members. I think the code goes wider as time goes on.
Anonymous
I need help managing paper clutter. I need a system for both clearing out what I have (consolidated into four huge boxes) and also managing what enters my house. I’d like to pare my paper way down, perhaps over a free weekend or a series of two weekends. I get a TON of mail and I don’t do a good job sorting and handling it immediately (usually not urgent things – donation requests and updates from charities I’m affiliated with, snail mail from elderly relatives on a weekly basis, magazines). Any tips for how to clear it out and/or manage it in the future?
Anonymous
The only system that has worked for me is Dracaris (best gift GOT ever gave me is this simple word). If you touch it once, you have to then put it in a trash can or put it in a permanent repository. If you touch it twice, you have to purge it. Papers, generally, are not important or can be copied. There are truly few papers that you need to keep — figure out what they are in your life and keep only that.
Anonymous
Throw it all away. Unless the deed to your house is in there you don’t need it.
Anonymous
The recorded deed is what matters though. Like the register of deeds has that. And most of those are on line now, so unless it is some original, I bet you don’t need that. Keep the payoff of your mortgage though — that is gold!
Eh
Honestly, throw it all away. There is very very little chance that you need a single piece of paper you’ve accumulated. The only exception is if there is a bill you haven’t paid. If you have four huge boxes of paper, you have kept way too much. If it’s not a bill, throw it out. (Only other exception I can think of would be tax related information.) Paper should not be taking up entire weekends of your life.
Second, why do you get a ton of mail? Cut this problem off at the source. Every piece of mail represents a moment of your life that you can’t get back. You have to use precious brainpower and precious time every single time you receive mail. That’s why you need to ruthlessly cut your mail to ONLY what is necessary. (Also, it’s a lot of unnecessary paper wasted.) Are you reading all of the magazines? Do you read them every month? If not, cancel the subscription. If you occasionally want the magazine, go get it at the store. Call the charities and get off the mailing lists– all of them. Do you really need the updates from the charities? I’m sure they are doing good work. Google it when you’re interested, and otherwise remove yourself. Set up your donation annually so you’re not getting continued requests throughout the year. The snail mail from elderly relatives is the only thing I would allow to continue, because that’s precious and irreplaceable and worth your time. The other mail is not. Make it stop coming.
Aggie
I flip through my mail on the walk back from the mail box. All junk mail, catalogs and non-essentials go into the garage trash. If I receive a bill in the mail, I pay it online and immediately sign up for e-bills. Same goes for mailings from any charity I’m involved and/or support.
Truly irreplaceable (or difficult to replace) items go directly to my safety deposit box: deeds, car titles, original birth and marriage certificates and passports. Everything else is filed immediately or it is unimportant. Mail is not an obligation and should not take up a large portion of your day – especially not a large portion of your Saturday.
Anonymous
This is exactly what I do. Very little makes it past the garage recycling bin on any given day: coupons I actually want/use, a professional journal my husband receives, and our single paper bill (water bill from the city, no e-bill option) which I typically pay online immediately and then shred. That’s about it.
Cb
I have to keep stuff for immigration documentation but stopped filing things by type and instead file them by year. One folder for each year. If I’m looking for something, I only need to go through one pile – the year pile, rather than the pile of unfilled paperwork and any possible files it might have gotten stuffed into.
I also only open mail once a week – I do it all at once with the recycling bin nearby and file right away.
Senior Attorney
OMG one folder for each year!
This is genius.
Anon
That really is a great idea.
Vicky Austin
Buy a box of file folders. Put things in them. Be ruthless. Take pictures or scan if you want to keep it but don’t have room.
MagicUnicorn
Don’t bring it in the house if you don’t intend to keep it. Opt for charity email newsletters and get off their paper mailing lists. Sign up for paperless billing and schedule automated payments and donations so you don’t depend on the paper copy to remind yourself.
Another anon
I would have agreed with the ‘throw it all out’ mentality until this year. Six weeks (+ $$) of trying to track down >7 year old bank statements to process divorce paperwork was no fun. But I hope this does not happen to you!
LA help
I’ll be spending a weekend in LA for the first time, and I’m excited and have a couple logistical questions. Forgive the clueless New Yorker, please… :)
I’m thinking of flying into BUR (it’s cheaper) and taking the BurbankBus from the airport to north hollywood station. Is this safe/advisable to do around 8pm? Would it be more convenient to fly into LAX or get to LA proper another way from BUR?
What’s an interesting, relatively central neighborhood to stay in? I don’t drive and won’t have a car, so interesting walkable stuff nearby would be a plus, but I’m very prepared to Uber. I am a Brooklynite who enjoys somewhat hipster/yuppie things…does that mean I should stay in Echo Park or Silverlake?
Thanks for the help! I’ll come back to ask about activities once I get my logistics squared away!
DoesntBelongHere
I would fly into BUR and take an Uber/Lyft to Silverlake and use that as your home base.
Anonymous
Avoid LAX at all costs.
The original Scarlett
I fly to Burbank all the time instead of LAX because it’s smaller and closer to downtown. Just Uber/Lyft from there to where you want to go (LA is not a public transit kinda town). The East side (Silverlake, etc. is hip, but you need to know where to go). For a first time visit, I’d do Venice beach/West side – plenty of hipster stuff, but at the beach and more classic LA. You can google a lot about these places, I find the Goop Guides surprisingly good.
The original Scarlett
Why moderation? I use the same username and email, and check the box every time….
Celia
The express buses (red instead of orange) are pretty quick, considering, and the same price as the regular ones. The subway/train system is better than at first. You can get day passes for the Metro system (bus and train). Silver Lake is getting trendy, true, but it’s still pretty spread out. Do you mean to stay around Hyperion? or the Triangle? What about Larchmont or Crescent Heights?
If flying in to Burbank, why not try for Pasadena –so much to do! It’s also really easy to get to Downtown LA, which has even more to do.
Anonymous
I would agree re Silverlake getting trendy but still spread out. I second west side / Venice Beach for a first time visitor. Very LA, lots of boutique trendy shops to walk around, plus beach!
Anon
Just so you know, airports are like religions to Angelenos. You have your LAX people and you have your Burbank people, and they will never change each other’s minds despite constant proselytizing as to why their airport is the correct airport.
The first question I get when visiting the LA office is not “how are you?” but rather “which airport did you fly into?” followed by a lecture as to why the airport I chose was the right one or the wrong one.
Anonymous
Bwahahaha.
And the correct answer is Burbank. Or sometimes John Wayne if you are not actually going to LA.
Anon
Sigh.
Coworker: where did you fly into?
Me: (bracing myself) LAX
Cw: no! You should fly into Burbank. Much better! Parking reasons! Traffic reasons! Closer reasons!
Me: but I’m not driving. I’m taking an Uber. And there’s a non-stop flight every hour from my airport to LAX, not to Burbank
Cw: but you should always fly into Burbank because reasons!
Next trip –
Cw: where did you fly into?
Anon
Next time tell her Hogwarts or the moon.
Anon
This is so spot-on it scares me.
Celia
I thought I’d fly out of LAX instead of Burbank because it was $40-50 cheaper. Traffic was great getting in –but then I couldn’t find the long-term lot, and then I couldn’t find *its* entrance, and then the van took forever, and then there was construction at Terminal 2 and I needed Terminal 6 –and then I needed a wheelchair AND had a dog –and the plane left EARLY and I missed my flight for the first time ever. Nunca mas! Not for a two-hour flight somewhere! Cross-country, sure, but nunca mas!
When I get in to Burbank from my regular business trip, it’s usually 45 minutes from getting in to the gate to me walking in the door. Can’t beat it.
Anon
Oh hello coworker!
Going away drinks
Tell me if I’m overthinking this. My last day at work is next week, and several people have asked me if there’s going to be some sort of informal drinks thing (not company sponsored, just people getting together) after work. There’s no formal going away party. Is it weird if I plan/schedule my own going away happy hour? I always thought it was sort of “not done” and sort of weirdly egotistical for the person to plan their own? But at the same time no one has volunteered to plan it in my stead and I would like to grab drinks with some of these people.
Anon
Send a short, breezy email– “Let’s get together for drinks next Wednesday night (or whatever your last day is) so I can say goodbye to the wonderful people I’ve met here! 5:30 at (location)– I hope to see anyone who can make it.”
Anonymous
“I’m breezy!” – Monica
Anon
Thank you for this reference :)
Panda Bear
Not weird! At least I don’t think so. I did that at my last job – just casually mentioned to my favorite half a dozen people that they could join me at x bar after work if they wanted to. It was fun.
Anon
I work in higher ed, so pretty casual, but it’s totally common for the departing person to say “Friday is my last day, I’m going to the XYZ bar at 5 pm for drinks if anyone wants to join.”
If people are asking, it’s because they want to celebrate/say goodbye to you, so definitely suggest it!
Anon
I don’t think planning your own going away drinks is weird at all.
Going away drinks
Thanks everyone…I’ll totally plan my own in this case!
Anonymous
Best going away drinks I ever attended was planned by the man himself. I’ve always thought so highly of him for it.
Anonymous
This might be a long shot, but does anyone have a recommendation for a spa on the North Fork of Long Island? I’m planning a trip with friends and anticipate that some will only be interested in manicures/pedicures, while others will want facials and massages. I’d rather err on the side of high-end. We are staying in Greenport, but can drive pretty much anywhere in the area. I’ve found a couple of places online, but the reviews are mixed and I trust the opinions of this group. Thanks!
Elle
I used someone’s Rothy’s code a while back and I just wanted to pay it forward if anyone is currently looking:
https://share.rothys.com/x/f3DHxr
anon
Any suggestions for a birthday gift for a 14-year old that I can send via Amazon Prime? She likes theater animals and and just started high school today. TIA!
Anon
Thank you to everyone who recommended Allbirds here, I ordered them and they should arrive today! I got the skipper style and I’m very excited.
anon
On the topic of referring former colleagues for positions at current employer…..I ran into an odd situation last week and would like some feedback. I joined new employer 7 months ago…..all is going well. Colleague from former employer also joined team in 4th quarter last year. I received an unexpected call from someone who works at former employer – I know the person’s name but we are not acquainted and have never worked together, and I don’t know their work ethic or skills. Person stated that mutual colleague on my team is trying to get them to join the company and they wanted to get a “second opinion” Caller proceeded to start interviewing me with questions like what makes you successful, and mostly compensation questions….since I don’t know this person, I was caught off guard and uncomfortable, so I said instead of interviewing me, what are you looking for…maybe I can help if you tell me what you are looking for. Person stated “I just want to make a million $$ and want to know if that’s feasible”…also asked several times if there was a heavy travel requirement (there is weekly national travel). I have two concerns: (1) calling someone you don’t know for a “second opinion” is unusual and (2) focus on compensation and travel requirements vs. what the role is about. I I advised that mutual colleague surely provided a fair POV on the position and recommended that applicant go back and work with mutual colleague and see where it goes….response was “well, I may not do that”. I said OK, good luck! I have not mentioned to mutual colleague and do not plan to … Thoughts?
The original Scarlett
Sounds like a case of right idea, wrong execution. I see nothing wrong with wanting to fully understand what kind of move you’re making, but candidate should have asked mutual contact to facilitate the conversation/ see if you’d be open to being candid.
anon
OP here…thank you great point. Mutual contact should have facilitated or given me a heads up at least. I’m super careful about recommendations and referrals that I give, and how much information I share with people I don’t know. Not sure that I would have agreed to speak with the contact even if I received a request in advance.
Anon
I would be tempted to take steps to make sure that someone that clueless did NOT get a job in my new company.
MagicUnicorn
Thanks to all who suggested online eyeglass options earlier this month! I ordered from Zenni and absolutely adore my new glasses (and the ease of ordering, as well as the low price).