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Updated: Oct 5, 2020 324 Comments · by

Tuesday’s Workwear Report: Plaid Knit Pencil Skirt

The Personal Shopper (TPS) |

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Plaid skirts invariably remind me of my high school field hockey days — in the best way possible. This gorgeous knee-length knit skirt is certainly an upgrade from my late ’90s/early 2000s polyester kilt, although I don’t know that I would have the same range of motion in this!

I would wear it with black tights and a black turtleneck for an easy office outfit, but if I were feeling a bit more daring, I might wear it with a bright yellow or green.

The skirt is $165 and comes in sizes XS–XL. (Note that it runs large.) Plaid Knit Pencil Skirt

Liverpool has a plaid knit skirt in sizes 14W–24W; it's $79 at Nordstrom. 

Sales of note for 9.30.24

Sales of note for 9.30.24

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. Anonymous

    Good morning. Both my mother-in-law and her sister live alone and have been having a tough time socially during COVID due to health restrictions. They live far away and I was trying to think of a fun gift for them for Christmas. Does anyone know of good Advent calendars for adults? I was thinking about sending the same one to both of them so they would have a small activity for 24 days and if they had the same one, that might be fun. Any ideas would be appreciated! Thank you.

    • Anon

      If you can get them, Aldi has cheese and wine Advent calendars. Mini bottle of wine and a serving of cheese. But I think they sell fast.

    • Cb

      I’ve seen tea advent calendars which are really nice. Brew & Co makes them and you can often get ones off indie sites.

    • Anon100

      I’ve seen some around for tea, coffee, beauty products (skincare or makeup), socks, chocolate, and candles

    • Anon

      The website My Subscription Addiction has a good round-up of advent calendars and you can look at reviews of previous years there too.

    • Anon

      There are wine advent calendars if they drink – I know WSJ wine was selling one.

    • Anonymous

      What a sweet gift! Bon Homme jams has an advent calendar, and I’ve been eyeing the Henry & David one for myself.

    • Anon

      Neiman Marcus will offer fun beauty advent calendars that have face masks, bath bombs, etc. Lush has them as well

    • anonshmanon

      I’m going back to making an online photo advent calendar, mostly with photos of my family, to send out to grandparents. We did this the first year that we moved away and couldn’t easily visit. I’m also hoping that sitting down to select some cute photos will help me remember the good moments, and it won’t feel so much like a lost year.

      • pugsnbourbon

        Aw that’s really sweet! My SIL makes a photo calendar for my mom every year and it’s always a hit.

    • Anonymous

      I eye Sephora’s advent calendar every year, but have never bought one for myself because it’s a bit spendy. It would make a great gift!

      • Anonymous

        The Sephora one was basically a rip off in my opinion. I bought it last year for my staff and they were not impressed. Such tiny samples.

    • Anonymous

      I do a few advent calendars for my staff every year and they love it. For the beauty ones, they loved the ones from Kiehls and L’Occitane. For just plain fun, they loved the advent calendar from the Naked Marshmallow Co. They also had a ton of fun with the cheap sock advent calendars from Target. Since it is a government office, I never went with anything too adult or too controversial. There are a ton of fun ones out there!

      • anon

        I love this idea, do you feel weirded out by the fact that advent is really a religious thing? Is it commercial enough that my staff wouldn’t be offended? I’m hoping the answer is no and yes!

        • Anonymous

          There are two sides to Advent and Christmas: the religious side and the secular cultural side. Advent calendars without religious content, along with Santa Claus and the Elf on the Shelf, fall squarely on the secular side. That will still offend some people who are not culturally Christian. If you don’t know your staff well enough to be certain they wouldn’t be offended, I wouldn’t risk it.

        • Anonymous

          My staff is all very young and sadly not as well paid as I would like. I spoke to them before the first year and they were all so excited. It was such a hit the first year that I just kept doing it. I have never bought anything that was in any way religious unless you consider Harry Potter a religion. We work throughout the holidays and I think it helps them be a little less down that they are working while others are at holiday parties.

    • Thanks, it has pockets!

      I’m always tempted by the wine or whiskey advent calendars out there, but for the second year in a row I got myself the Sugarfina advent calendar. You get a mini taster packet each day, some are festive Christmas flavors and some are just fan favorites, but I like having just a sweet little something each day.

    • Marie

      The Body Shop also does some nice ones (usually three price tiers of calendars) for a less expensive option. Past ones have included creams, face masks, bath bombs, etc.

  2. Anonymous

    Last Fall I stocked up on tweed and plaid suits; due to the shutdown I have not yet gotten much wear out of any of them. I think it will be next Fall that we return to work, so my skirt picks have been washable knits and denim. Maybe you all could do a round up of those in addition to the usual work attire?

    • Cat

      +1!

      I’m curious if it’s time for an updated poll on readers’ office situation? 95% of my company is still working from home, and although we’d all been assuming we weren’t going back anytime soon, they recently made the official announcement that it will be 2021 – at the earliest.

      Rather than change over my workwear closet for winter, I *literally* dusted my clothes this weekend and then stored them either in garment bags I had stashed around, or cut-off dry cleaning bags (to cover the top and shoulders from dust, but not trap the whole garment in plastic).

      • Cb

        Yes, if we aren’t teaching, we’re not allowed on campus. I suspect I won’t see the inside of my office until Spring sometime (although may need to go on a search and rescue mission for my sad lamp). I packed up my work clothes early on and have basically been rotating leggings, with the occasional jeans. I am on kid duty from 12-12 and work from 1 onwards so my clothes need to accommodate being on the floor, in the garden, or on a bike.

        I’ve made very few clothes purchases as a result – a puffer after years of resisting, a bike jacket to make myself a bit more visible, and a “nap dress”.

          • Cb

            It’s the Uniqlo Cotton A-Line dress, the one with sleeves and a split neck collar. I thought I’d be all elegant and instagram-y but instead look like Scrooge McDuck in his nightgown. But it’s super soft and comfy and I use it in place of a robe.

      • Anonyz

        I’m in the office two days a week. The air conditioning merits bundling up in my giant office cardigan every day, so I wear the same basics underneath all the time since I look the same anyway.

        My closet is full of dusty clothes. I really should take them all for cleaning and then figure out a better storage system. It’s appalling that a closed closet can accumulate that much filth.

        • Anonymous

          I have the same problem! I don’t understand where all the dust comes from. I think I need to invest in some non-plastic garment bags.

          • Anon

            It comes from you. The dust is dust mite poop, which is your skin digested. That’s why everyone’s house is dustier now that we’re all home all the time.

            You’re welcome!!

      • Anon

        I work for a large philanthropic non-profit. Offices nationwide, but the bulk of staff at DC HQ. We were told they would re-open the question of opening HQ in January. Basically they are not even going to think about it until then. So I suspect sometime in the Spring at the earliest.

      • NY CPA

        My company is 100% working from home until at least Jan 2021, but I’m not optimistic that we’ll be back before next summer. I think next fall, as you suggested, seems possible.
        Everyone is wearing whatever we want on zoom. If we have a client meeting, maybe we won’t wear a t-shirt, we’ll put on a blouse, but that’s about it. It would look so foreign to see someone wearing a blazer on zoom in my industry, but I know many lawyers here have noted they do that.

      • pugsnbourbon

        My big project just wrapped so I’m theoretically back to WFH … however today I’m on campus catching up. I imagine I’ll end up spending about 50% of my time on-campus, but the majority of non-teaching staff are close to 100% WFH. I spent the last month on a construction site so I wore jeans/boots every day. I’m definitely going to keep wearing jeans until my boss’ boss tells me to stop (he’s on campus too). Wife is still 100% WFH and will be until at least January.
        Today I am wearing flat boots, an ancient pair of olive Gap chinos, a black tank top, and a chambray-blue shirt on top.

      • Anonymous

        All of my firm’s offices are still work from home, with no solid plans on return date. I think it will be sometime in the spring at the earliest. I also wouldn’t be surprised if we shut some of our smaller offices and have people work from home permanently as leases come up for renewal. Apparently the unintentional firmwide work-from-home experiment is going really well. My work clothes sit forlornly in my closet. I throw on a blazer for remote depos, but that’s about it. Husband’s firm is back in the office and has been for a few months (they are much more old-school, emphasis on face time). He ordered a bunch of stuff from the Brooks Brothers sale (which, if you need stuff, currently has an excellent sale on) and asked if I wanted anything. There were several lovely work outfits, but I just couldn’t justify buying something that may or may not be in style or fit me by the time we go back into the office, whenever that might be.

      • Velma

        University staff here–associate director level. I’m 100% remote–not even allowed on campus without jumping into the testing protocol.

        I’ve stored the majority of my office clothes, including MANY shoes and boots that I thought were comfortable but turn out not to be comfortable enough to get any wear at home and all but the most comfortable dresses and skirts (mostly knit and A-line/flared).

        I’ve stocked up on casual/weekend clothes–a few pairs of sweatpants in the early days. Easy knit dresses and sandals over the summer. Recently, a few shaker/ribbed sweaters, flat boots, sneakers, and jeans. I still “dress” for work–a bit. Usually a nice blouse or sweater on top, although some on campus have gone extremely casual (graphic tees, etc.). Definitely haven’t worn a blazer, pencil skirt, dress pants, or heels since March.

      • The original Scarlett

        Yep, home until at least 2021 sometime – I just SMH at the actual work clothes shown. Even after, I don’t think work attire will be what it was before so can’t imagine buying it now

      • kk

        My office is not open- 99% of the workers there take public transportation to get there, and it’s in a 50+ story building. Even if the cleaning and space were adequate, getting people in and out of the office is not currently feasible.
        Offices at my company will open gradually around the country, but ours will likely be on the later side, given the logistics. They’ll start with office parks in the suburbs, where people can safely drive in their cars, take the stairs, and socially distance inside. My job at 80% travel will likely not be 80% travel for the forseeable future.
        I’m currently working in our guest bedroom in zella leggings, a free people sweater, and cozy slippers, which I will be doing for the rest of the fall/winter.

      • Anon

        To answer your poll, I’m 100% WFH from the beginning of the pandemic and will remain so for the rest of my career unless I change jobs, which is unlikely.

        My work uniform is:
        1) some days I don’t get out of PJs
        2) stretchy dark wash $30 Levi’s featured here, a lucky brand knit top, and either a cardigan or open linen shirt over. Earrings always
        3) for a zoom call, the above plus hair that isn’t wet and some makeup

        On the feet, Birkenstock clogs

    • Anon

      Yes. I have definitely bought some WFH attire here but I think it was featured on the mom’s site. I’m not even a mom and I still check the featured item daily there because it tends to go with my lifestyle better. I have the Jockey sweatshirt blazer thing in gray and black. Goes perfect with leggings and looks nice on Zoom. I have a bunch of stuff from the JCrew factory sale. I think that was a reader rec.

      • Anon

        Wow, I didn’t know I was supposed to be checking the moms site for comfy clothing. This is a great tip!! I like the conversations here but the picks are usually wildly unrealistic for my current work life.

    • Anonymous

      Employers that can manage are not going to reopen / make people come in until the kids are back to school. Of course, there are exceptions. But If you are still working from home now and haven’ tbeen called back yet, i would assume your return to work will roughly coincide with resuming in-person education at the earliest.

      I work for my self, but DH’s company basically said they will consider opening up the office in 2021 for anyone that wants to come back, but they are expecting anyone that has children at home learning remotely will likely not return until summer. And, of course, anyone else that has non-child related reasons to be home.

    • Anonymous

      F100, and all our offices are open at 50%, excluding senior leaders, who have been in the office the entire time. The office that opened the latest was actually due to broken windows from the riots, not due to COVID 19. The only thing I don’t like about the 50% working in the office is that some offices have very structured calendars — two weeks in, two weeks work at home, two weeks in. The office I work told the leaders on each floor to coordinate, and my floor didn’t really do that. Some people are in the office 25%, some 33%, and then our team is 50% or more. I come in two or three days a week.

      I expect no later than January 2021 we will be back 100%. It’s worth noting that most of our building have decent seating space, and wearing masks etc. is mandated, no exception.

    • Anon

      Been in the office Monday to Friday since mid April, in business casual for the office and suits for court. Sigh.

    • Fed Anon

      Fed govt. 1/3 of my office is on “permanent” telework due to self-declared vulnerabilities. The other 2/3s are on a rotating schedule, so half the available team is in the office one week and on telework the next. It keeps the numbers in the office down to our mandated levels, and the teams functions as pods to keep potential spread down. In theory. Last Monday in office I broke out my splurge favorite Boss suit and a pair of suede heels, just because. Today I’m in olive jeans, a Hollister shirt and a cardigan I picked up a couple of years ago, possibly at Target. It’s a step up from yesterday, when I wore a pair of my daughter’s outgrown sweatpants, tshirt, and fleece jacket.

  3. Vicky Austin

    The new Workwear Sales of Note feature is very helpful (well, if you ignore the protests of my bank account…)!

  4. Anon for this

    If you have advice, I’ll take it, but this might just be a rant. I have.a staffer who pre-pandemic barely did any work. This person is near retirement and not only that has absolutely zero work ethic. I’ve addressed this with him before, but ultimately: I can’t fire this person (government) and I need to make him do some work.

    The issue here is that after finally FINALLY resolving all the bizarre barriers this individual put up, to get him to work I’m literally having to spend half my day micromanaging his assignments. For example, I need him to complete documents A, B, and C and once he’s done with those I need him to work on bigger project D (which we have discussed extensively, he has a template, and shouldn’t be THAT hard). He’ll give me a half-done version of A, have some question for me he could probably sort out himself, I’ll be in meetings and not answer within 10 minutes, so he’ll disappear for the rest of the day. If I ever ask what happened, he says that he’s waiting for an answer from me on A.

    I’m at the point where I basically need to get him to retire, but he’s literally sitting around waiting for an incentive package to come out. It’s honestly terrible because (as his prior coworker told me) he has no conscience.

    • Anonymous

      I’m in government, it is possible to fire people. Can you not put him on a performance review plan? Like you need to make his life so difficult and micromanaged that he stops waiting for the package and just retires. You need to document, document, document. If he is away from the computer for more than an hour unauthorized, it’s leave time. Period. Send him an express email stating that if he finishes A or cannot complete A because he needs assistance, then he begins B – if he cannot complete B or needs assistance, then he begins C etc. If he is unable to complete all of his assignments without assistance then that is excellent evidence that he is not competent in his position. If he ever has time where he does not have anything to do, he needs to do XYZ free continuing education available online that you’ve found. He sends you the registration and completion email for each such course.

      Whenever he asks a question, he should also be required to provide a proposed course of action. Like ‘Do we have a precedent for ABC? If not, I propose that I will ask XYZ department if they have a precedent?’

      Also, if you have other reports, I would encourage you to think about the impact on them. I know of at least two of my colleagues who are looking for work elsewhere because they are so tired of a colleague who is in a similar situation as your employee, getting away with doing nothing while they are killing themselves trying to balance work and kids at school online.

      • Anon for this

        You make good points, yes: technically I have already looked into and pursued the steps to fire this person; however, it is (at best) a 3 year process and several of the required steps are ‘face to face’ meetings – there is no policy substitution yet for COVID protocols. Hence, I’m feeling like I can’t fire him.

        And le sigh, yeah. I’ve been working on being on top of it… unfortunately, I am already doing the job of myself + the empty position that should be my supervisor, hand holding another ineffective staffer, plus doing big parts of this person’s job that end up being time sensitive and then managing the rest of my team’s issues… It’s sucking the life out of me today.

        • Anonymous

          You can’t do the meetings socially distanced and masked? Or even outdoors?
          Does the policy say the meetings must be indoors and within 6 ft?

          Even starting the process may be a wake up call for him to motivate him to leave or get himself together.

        • InHouse Anon

          I am not in gov’t but a close family member has been a manager in an agency for 20+ years. She’s been in the exact situation you describe — and ultimately after a FOUR year process (documenting everything, working hand-in-hand with HR, etc.), was able to terminate the employee. Who then sued for age discrimination and was provided a generous settlement by the agency despite the four years of documented evidence that the employee did not work during that time and did things like falsifying his time sheets. This employee had a pension based on 30+ years work with the agency, which was not affected by the termination. And he still sued. That outcome also awful on morale. I just wanted to validate that you’re probably doing everything you can, and your team likely knows that, even though it stinks for all involved.

    • Anonymous

      You’re wasting your time. He’s not going to work. You can’t make him.

      • Anon for this

        I know I am and that’s why it’s so frustrating. I remind myself that I’m doing it mostly for the morale of other employees. It was better when the other employees could actually physically see me making him work (when we were in the office); however, with WFH it’s largely invisible to everyone.

    • Ellen

      I saw this when I was working in DC while in school. The deal with goverment is that you don’t get paid as much, but you have job security, which pretty much means, in the case of a guy who has been around for more then a few years, is that unless you are caught doing something absolutely terrible (think exposing yourself to people / cleints), you have a job, even if it means doing nothing more then showing up! You also get great retirement and health benefits, so you are well ahead of the private sector, where you are pretty much on your own.

      Of course, now with the Covid 19 allowing WFH, these useless dregs (old and young alike) absolutely do next to nothing, as the OP suggests, and know they can get away with it! PTOOOEY on them!

      Dad estimates there are probably 20-25% of the Federal worforce are somewhere on the lazyness spectrum — some of course worse then others. Even the legal departments are not exempt, in that there are some lawyers making $150K+ year who do little more then stareing at women on the street and ranking them. I was shocked that these schlubs had so little to do; even their management sometimes joined in the festivity!

      I wonder what these schlubs do from home? Do they have zoom calls where they rank pretty women, and if so, based on what? That is why peeople have such a negative idea when it comes to goverment. DOUBEL FOOEY on them!

    • RW

      Ugh, what a situation. One thing I have done in managing workers that aren’t quite on a performance plan.. but are getting close is, I make them send me daily email of their work. I normally structure the template of the email, listing out the projects. I ask for 3 items for each project.. what did you accomplish, what help do you need, what task is priority for tomorrow. This does not work in all cases, but for some people it has worked to given them an accountability, and structure, and helps me not need daily meetings.

      • Anon for this

        I tried this and the staffer cited ‘computer trouble’ and it went by the wayside, but I think I might go back to this.

        • Anonymous

          Then they are obligated to contact the IT dept and resolve any computer trouble. If they don’t have computer access to send you an email then they do not have computer access to work from home and must take leave.

          If they cannot get it resolved with IT before end of day, they call and leave a voicemail for you providing the same info and you can call in to check.

        • Anon

          I think your employee is awful but I also think you’re giving up to easily on the things you try to implement.

      • Anon

        We did this in my office to rebalance workload. We are a law firm but some assistants more work than others based on what attorneys were busy. We also had a particular assistant who just took forever to get anything done and we needed to identify some efficiencies.

        We had all of the assistants track their time like attorneys for a few weeks. Not just the sum total at the end of the day but on an hours chart. So 9:00-9:10 called client A for scheduling purposes. 9:10-9:20, scanned and forwarded mail. For the whole day.

        We realized that my assistant was incredibly inefficient because every time she got a new email she would stop what she was doing, read it, and often start the new project so she had 100 unfinished projects. For her we found that using the delay send option on anything not urgent so she got new emails at 10 am, noon, 2 pm and 4 pm, really helped her focus on her work without interruption.

        I also realized I have to do more managing and I can’t expect her to prioritize on her own. So sometimes I check in and ask what she’s working on right then. I ask what she has on her plate for open tasks. We then put them in order of importance.

        Lastly, there are some things I was able to just take off her plate completely. I prefer doing my own time entry anyway, so I do that. Filing emails the way the firm wanted them done was taking forever, particularly now that we are remote and everyone is emailing everything. I worked out a filing system that the firm is okay with that I just do myself since I was doing it anyway. (Storing in my local, moving to public folders if someone else is working on the case, exporting to file at the end of the case.)

        Long story short, you just need to check in with him A LOT. “How are things going with project A? When do you expect to have it done? What do you need from me? End of the day – where did you leave off on project A?” I doubt he is willing to blatantly admit he is doing no work so long as you ride him, he’ll work.

    • Anon

      I just want to give you some commiseration. I have a close family member who has worked for state government for her entire career. For a 10 year stretch, she barely showed up to work. I don’t know how she got away with it but she did. If she went to work at all, it was for an hour here or there. As a taxpayer in the same state, it made me insane.

      Karma is a bitch though. She got “promoted” to another office and I guess they didn’t know she was above all that, and how she has to show up to work. I have never heard someone complain so much about having to show up at work on time every morning – it’s like she invented it.

      She hates it so much that she’s considering retiring early, with a full pension and 2 years of saved up vacation days, of course.

      • Anon

        I’m so confused how this works. Do you mean she was WFH? Or was she just meeting her quotas in a portion of the day and then doing whatever she wanted the rest of the time?

        • Anon

          She simply didn’t go to work. I don’t know how she got away with it. I think she had no supervisor on-site so I guess she figured no one would notice. I don’t think she had a long list of daily tasks she needed to accomplish.

  5. Anon

    I’m a bit frustrated at a health equity style guide we just got from a major government client at work. I’m all for promoting health equity in my public policy field and I’ve written quite a few public-facing documents to that effect, but this goes so far that even I (as a very liberal Democrat/progressive) am having trouble swallowing it. A lot of commonly used, not-commonly-considered-offensive terms are now strongly discouraged and wordy, convoluted, mega-person-first alternatives are suggested instead. We’re not allowed to say “high-risk population” anymore – it has to be “persons experiencing disproportionate impact from ___.” We can’t say that we want to “tackle” a problem – we have to say we need to propose something that is “tailored to the needs of ___.” We can’t say “men who have sex with men (MSM)” anymore – we have to say LGBTQIA+. It’s not “pregnant women” or “mother” anymore, it has to be “pregnant persons” or “pregnant parent.” “Immigrant populations” are now “non-U.S.-born populations.” We can’t even say “stakeholder” anymore! Apparently that word has “violent connotations”, although no sources were cited for that claim, nothing really comes up when I Google it, and it’s not something I have ever heard before, even though I consider myself way more woke than 95% of the people we work with. There are also some very sensible recommendations in the guide, but it’s mostly stuff that is already common practice, like not saying “addict” or “criminal” to describe someone who is in prison for using drugs.

    I’m cognizant of the fact that I need to be open to learning and growing, which I always try to do in both my professional and personal lives, but it really hit me that my name is going to be on this extremely vague, low-quality writing now that goes so far towards inclusiveness that it loses the specificity that we need to understand certain health and social issues. This is especially apparent with the MSM example above – MSM are at much higher risk of contracting HIV, a risk that is NOT borne equally by all LGBTQIA+ people, but if we can’t name that, how can we study it and propose solutions? What do people think – do I get over it and do the best I can within the guidelines or suggest gentle alternatives when possible? I think there is a LITTLE room to push back. I wouldn’t even post this if I didn’t view a lot of the suggestions as seriously harmful to the strength and specificity of our writing and subject matter expertise.

    • Anonymous

      I think I get what you are saying. In the AIDS era, if you had used LGBTQIA+, you might have scared a lot of people wrongly instead of targetting the message for a MSM population, which has unique risks. The L crowd isn’t at the same risk unless they do [things] with the MSM crowd. For blood donor screening (the only area of my life where I encounter this), they are explicit about which acts and with whom they want to know about (ditto drug behaviors and time incarcerated (and also: in Europe)).

    • Anonymous

      No advice but to paraphrase Alexander Pope…

      A little wokeness can be a dangerous thing.

    • Anon

      The HIV thing is just idiotic. I’m pretty sure lesbians have lower rates of HIV than straight women. It’s crazy to give people misinformation in the name of being PC.

      • Panda Bear

        +1. If there is only a little room for it, then push back where you know the wording really matters for research/public policy purposes – the MSM vs. LGBTQIA+ is a great example. And for the rest of it, accept that this client is just overwrought.

      • Anon

        It’s almost unheard of for lesbians to transmit HIV to each other. I’m not sure that describing the one known mechanism would even be allowed on this site.

    • anon

      Yeah that’s very silly and, as you mentioned, will have negative impacts. I think you should suggest alternatives and explain why, as you just did with the MSM example. Also, immigrant and “non-US-born” are not the same thing. Think of all the military kids who were born overseas.

      • Anonymous

        I mean I can see using ‘people who immigrated’ instead of ‘immigrants’ but ‘non-US-born’ isn’t even accurate. If you are US born, then leave because your parents are deported, you grow up in another country and then return for college or something, your health profile will not be the same as someone raised in the US. US born doesn’t mean raised in the US and non-US born doesn’t raised outside the US.

      • Ellen

        I too am sick of all of this new PC language stuff, and it is actually wrong! While MSM has some unique s-xueal disease factors/ risks, all females have tuchuses, and nearly all men will often want to do that same stuff with females, and if we let them, we are at risk from that stuff. But our LGBT freinds do not provide access to males,and they therefore are actually at a LOWER risk than those of us ladies that want to get married to men for child bearing purposes (P in V s-x). In a nutshell, we who allow men general s-xueal access must remain vigilent not to let men do stuff to us at all (especially P in T s-x) unless we are confident they are HIV negative.

      • Sesquedoodle

        There are trans men (as in, assigned female at birth and transitioned later in life) who have gotten pregnant and had children. Ditto for non-binary people. It costs nothing to include them when talking about reproductive health.

        • Anon

          Do you also say All Lives Matter? Does it “cost nothing” to include everyone in that advocacy? I’m a woman and from my POV, you do lose something very important when the word “woman” gets erased.

          • Anon

            There’s such an easy way to make it inclusive too. Just say women, trans-men and non-binary people who become pregnant. Then women are not erased and neither are the transmen and non-binary folks.

          • Sesquedoodle

            if i’m talking about women, I’ll say women. if i’m talking about people who can get pregnant, i’ll say people who can get pregnant (which is not all women, either). i don’t appreciate you comparing this to all lives matter, which only exists as a backlash to black lives matter. trans people are not some kind of attempt to set back women’s rights.

        • Anonymous

          IMO I don’t think that pregnant men are terribly common. Materials drafted for a black swan may confuse all of the white swans.

    • Anon

      I thought that the MSM terminology was used because there are many men who have sex with men that don’t identify as gay so you need to focus on behavior not identity? I think it makes sense to be inclusive and think about language but not to the point where it actually excludes people.

    • Lily

      I think you should definitely push back, especially on the MSM thing, since that has concrete implications for your work.

      The “pregnant person” thing makes me ragey, but I would not necessarily push back on that unless you want to get the JK Rowling treatment.

      • Anon

        I would push back on both because pregnant person is ridiculous and offensive in many contexts when you are discussing the barriers that women face because they are female. We can’t talk about sex discrimination if we can’t identify the sex at risk (and you can’t use pregnancy as a proxy for sex – talk about offensive!).

        I would not make a big show of pushing back, but just keep quietly doing what you want and make other suggested changes that don’t affect the meaning of what you are saying.

        • Anon

          “We can’t talk about sex discrimination if we can’t identify the sex at risk (and you can’t use pregnancy as a proxy for sex – talk about offensive!).”

          Exactly. If men can get pregnant, then pregnancy discrimination is not a subset of sex discrimination.

      • Anonymous

        I’m not bothered by “pregnant person” but “pregnant parent” makes me ragey, unless you’re specifically talking about someone who already has a child and is also pregnant. Being pregnant doesn’t make you a parent.

        • Anon

          Right. Following the logic used in other language changes, not everyone who becomes pregnant ends up parenting (the child they are pregnant with, or possibly any children ever).

    • Anon

      What is your obligation to utilize this guide? I don’t know your customer so I can’t say if it’s appropriate to push back, but perhaps you can follow it where it makes sense and if it doesn’t then use alternate terms. If they ask you about it, you will have an explanation ready to discuss with them.

    • Anonymous

      Some of those aren’t even accurate. Like ‘high risk’ does not mean ‘disproportionate impact’ because they may not have the impact, they are just at a greater risk of the impact.

      I’d focus on the ones that are not accurate but agree that the whole thing is a bit much.

      • Anonymous

        This style guide sounds downright dangerous. “High-risk” and “disproportionate impact” do not mean the same thing at all. Same with “MSM” and “LGBTQIA+.”

    • Vicky Austin

      I think you have room to push back. As others have said, some of this is misleading. The point of language is to make things clearer, not more confusing. If the pandemic has taught us nothing else, it should at least have taught us that public health information needs to be extremely straightforward and simple.

      And I can’t for the life of me figure out why “stakeholder” would be considered violent (is it the stake?? is that offensive to vampires??).

    • Anon

      I think it’s fair to ask whether the suggestions are moving towards or away from accuracy. It’s always okay to say “pregnant women” if that’s what you mean. It’s helpful to have another term that’s more accurate if you mean to include people of any gender identity who are pregnant. LGBTQIA+ is a problem if it doesn’t match what you’re talking about. There’s a bad tendency among privileged people for word choices to descend into shibboleths and performative wokeness. It’s good to stand up against this tendency when it’s working against respectful and accurate language. So I’m not sure it should be “don’t say that; say this” with these examples; it should probably be “which do you actually mean?”

      There’s also a question of whether the suggested language is actually respectful or not. Person-first language is extremely controversial in some communities; it is seen as an attempt to deny that a disability or marginalized status is relevant to identity or even as an attempt to undermine identity politics that could benefit a marginalized group.

      • Anon

        OP here and I agree, but I was pleasantly surprised to see the guide actually does acknowledge that. We’re encouraged to use “person with a disability” or “disabled person” depending on context. In all of the other categories, the language has to be aggressively person-first.

      • No Face

        Thank you for being articulate. Your comment is much better than the rant in my head.

        I can’t stand this type of language because it dilutes the meaning and is a liberal-seeming way to disregard the difficulties that particular problems face. If you want to talk about an issue facing Black people in particular, JUST SAY BLACK. Not “people of color” or “diverse communities” or “underserved populations” because these phrases are not interchangeable, and depending on context the phrases completely erase anti-black racism. It drives me crazy.

        • Anon

          Preach! I read something, can’t remember where, about how in the 1830s, “interactions among people of color and white plantation owners were tense” or something like that. No, we’re talking about Black people. Acknowledge them.

        • Anon

          Thanks for saying this. While different populations of color have experienced many challenges over the course of American history, and I do understand there were non-Black and mixed-race people who were also enslaved, it was predominantly Black people who were enslaved and it’s predominantly Black people who are still living with the legacies of slavery and the institutionalized racism that survived the end of slavery. I have always felt like saying “people of color” when talking about slavery really invalidates the experiences of Black people in America, then and today.

          • No Face

            I agree completely. As another example, the Holocaust was an anti-Semitic campaign that attempted to wipe Jewish people off the face of the planet, even though the Nazis murdered non-Jewish people as well. Vague references to prejudice in an attempt to include the non-Jewish victims do not accurately capture what happened.

          • Anon

            I agree 100%. That’s exactly how I feel about the long history and present day struggles of sexism and misogyny – AGAINST WOMEN. We deserve to use our own language and words to describe our pain and that includes words to describe our biology. It wasn’t that long ago that the uterus was being blamed for our “hysteria” and “fickle temperaments”, just to give one example. You can’t separate women’s oppression from women’s biology. If you want to do that in your own personal life, fine, but don’t tell me what words I’m “allowed” to use because I’m not listening.

          • Anon

            Totally agreed. And maybe people need to take a moment to learn about and correctly identify the history of what was faced by other non-white groups in the US — e.g. the Chinese Exclusion Act, Japanese internment, everything Trump has ever said about Hispanics — rather than just lumping each of these groups experiences along with Black experiences of slavery and Jim Crow — as “people of color” and “disadvantaged communities”, which are often too general to be quite accurate.

          • Anonymous

            Agree. I think “people of color” has its place, however, it’s really important to understand the effect of the binary racial construct when talking about Black people in America.

          • Anon

            Agreed! People of color is a useful descriptor in limited circumstances but often time it has the effect of erasing the very specific experiences different populations within that group have. It’s pretty ridiculous to refer to people of color when talking about slavery, Japanese internment, etc.

        • Seattle Anon

          Recently found out from a friend that my county changed their terminology for a property tax levy to help veterans, seniors, and vulnerable populations to “veterans, older adults, and resilient communities.” Apparently “vulnerable populations” was offensive, as was “seniors.”

          • Anon

            I’m normally not team throw rocks at other generations but good grief, this invokes the image of an angry Baby Boomer being offended by being called a senior citizen but telling me that I’m a snowflake for being offended by half the sh*t our president says

          • Anon

            That’s the thing, though. It probably wasn’t actual seniors or vulnerable communities who found it offensive. It was some overly well meaning person from neither of those communities who decided it was offensive.

    • But first, Tea

      I do want to push back a little on your MSM example though. I’ll caveat this with I’m not a doctor or involved with sexual health research, but aren’t both MSM and LGBTQIA+ inaccurate for the medical studies you’re referring to? I mean, sure MSM is closer than LGBTQIA+, but realistically when it comes to risk it likely relates to sexual acts/behaviors, right? So MSM would leave out non-binary populations and could be complicated when the acts involve trans individuals and intersex individuals. If the concern is really about, in the example you gave, studying populations at risk for HIV/AIDS, then best practices would probably be referring to the acts/behaviors that enhance that risk instead of a shorthand like MSM.

      I also don’t see the problem with using pregnant person because while that person will often be a woman, it won’t always be. So if you really only have a little room to push back I would probably put this one at the bottom of the priority list.

      • ANON

        “often” be a woman, lol
        I think you mean 99.999999999999% of the time it won’t be a woman who transitioned to a man and then had a baby

        • Anonymous

          I agree with this. These trans men are horrified to be lumped in with women whilst pregnant, as it is so antithetical to their male identities, but it is somehow consistent with their male identity to bear children? I’m missing this. Is this really a sizable portion of the trans population, let alone the population as a whole?

          • Anon

            It can’t be a huge proportion just by definition (1% of the population?), especially considering that people become infertile after receiving cross-sex hormones and that many will not want to become pregnant anyway.

      • Anon

        What would your inclusive suggestion be that gets at the same meaning? I can’t think of a good one.

          • Anon

            Anon at 11:06, it would have to be “people with penises who engage in anal sex.” That is the risk group (it’s not everyone who has anal sex). You don’t think that sounds a bit…graphic?

          • Vicky Austin

            Well, this is sexual health we’re talking about. Sometimes you gotta tell Marcia Langman to shove it and grab a banana.

          • Anon

            At 11:10, are women who engage in anal sex with men with penises not at higher risk too? I thought part of the issue is that people don’t use protection with anal sex as there is no risk of pregnancy and there is also higher chances of tearing. That applies to men engaged in anal sex with each other and women engaged in anal sex with men.

          • Anon

            No. It’s male-to-male anal sex that is the major risk because of the high prevalence of HIV among gay males in the US.

      • Clementine

        The MSM example is actually one where ‘MSM’ would be the accurate term. As someone said above, it’s the act, not the identities of the individuals involved.

        Additionally, many groups within the LGBTQIA+ spectrum are actually at a lower risk of contracting HIV/AIDS. For example: the A’s in there are likely not engaging in the same acts that would bring risk (at all).

        Someone may identify as a straight, cisgender male; however, if they fall into an MSM bracket, they are at higher risk.

        • But first, Tea

          Except that if it’s about the act, and if the act is anal, then it’s not just limited to MSM. As I noted above, non-binary people, trans people. Heck, even some (most?) cis straight couples can and do have anal.

          This is also why I said I think LGBTQIA+, in this context, is too broad, but also MSM is too restrictive.

          I’m ace. I’m a sex repulsed ace too so I’m definitely in essentially a zero risk population. You’re right that it wouldn’t make sense to lump me into a group at higher risk.

          This is why I think, when speaking about something like risk, it makes the most sense to speak about acts rather than broad strokes.

      • Anonymous

        Imagine how all of this will read to a person who is not a native English speaker. It will probably be confusing. Ditto someone who is older, who may not get what you are hinting at unless you are direct with commonly-used terms.

        “Pregnant parent” may be especially confusing.
        Ditto anything touching on immigration (or immigration may cloud the issue if you really mean to discuss language barriers (which may exist among non-immigrants) or illiteracy or poverty).

        • Anon

          Another great point. It never helps anyone to obfuscate – like when you say “people with a cervix should be screened for cervical cancer” and don’t get through to the 30%+ of girls and women who have absolutely no idea what a cervix is.

          • Anonymous

            This. “People with a cervix should be screened for cervical cancer. This includes all women over the age of 18. ” is more appropriate.

          • Anon

            Absolutely. Then it gets worse when places try to twist themselves into knots to avoid saying “women.” “The cervix is an organ that people that can have babies have. No, not couples that have babies, just the birthing parent…”

        • Anonymous

          “Pregnant parent” to me sounds like something only of issue to people who have at least one child and there is a subsequent child on the way (like people who might be done building their family and want to consider tubal ligation, a vascectomy, or maybe an IUD).

          I have a condition (rH negative) that really is implicated on subsequent (not first) pregnancies, but I miscarried my first pregnancy, so “pregnancy” status vs “parent” status is often something I pay attention to the details of (daycare sibling preferences often require a signed note with a due date from an OB confirming a pregnancy). So I think about these things, but in English. In my second language, I might not quite get nuances like this. And a lot of the population who didn’t have good s*x education and reproductive awareness might miss out on a lot more in English even if that is their native language.

    • Anon

      Thanks everyone, there were some really thoughtful comments here that I hadn’t even considered (especially about how these changes will read to non-native English speakers). I think I have some really solid reasons to help underline a thoughtful pushback now. Thanks again!

    • Anon

      I do some public facing communications work for my government agency. One thing we stress is that the average reading level in my area of responsibility is 4th grade so that everything needs to be written at a 4th grade level. Many of the proposed changes are more complicated than original phrases.

      • Anonymous

        Thanks for pointing this out. I think that the WSJ is written at a 12th grade reading level, so this is reading more basic than USA Today (assuming that the person is a native speaker; if you are not a native speaker, I think it is even more of a struggle). Don’t talk in code to people if you want to share info with them — people shouldn’t have to work so hard! Idioms are already hard, much less woke code-speak.

        • Anon

          Especially woke code-speak that changes so rapidly. Was anyone on this thread aware that “stakeholder” is reported to have “violent connotations” until today…?

    • Seventh Sister

      If you are writing materials for the general public, it might be easier to say things like “If you are pregnant…” than to try and use “pregnant persons” or other, newer phrases. Simple words and phrases are usually clearest.

      If these are documents you are drafting for another audience, I’d be more inclined to use or not use their preferred language/buzzwords (I think of “stakeholders” as a buzzword).

      Another thought I had is to suggest footnotes that semi-apologize for not using more inclusive wording if a section is about something that is highly specific to a single group (sort of along the lines of the footnote you see in legal decisions were John Smith and Jane Smith are opposing parties, so the author calls the parties John and Jane instead of Smith and Smith).

      • Anon

        I think that can work okay for women who are already pregnant, but it doesn’t work for “if you can get pregnant” or “if you have a uterus…” and so on. When so many girls and women don’t really know or understand the facts of life or if they can get pregnant at their life stage, it’s only more confusing. It’s the worst possible outcome if women, especially women with lower literacy levels, don’t know that important health advice, esp re: cancer screening, applies to them.

    • Anon

      How did you know that PurpleAir is basically my new home page? :)

      Thanks for sending this! Can’t wait to cast my ballot this week.

    • Anonymous

      Love it! Will this also track the votes themselves? I’d like to see how we’re doing!

      • No more doomscrolling

        I think the votes itself don’t get published until polling stations close on election night, but it looks like it tracks whether the returned ballots are from a registered dem/rep/independent etc, so you can infer how they are likely to vote.

    • Anon

      I voted early this year (absentee but essentially in person because I picked up my ballot at the clerk’s office, filled it out and handed it back). I voted Dem down the ballot but I recently heard that for those that voted early for Trump, if he passed away, even if Pence became the new nominee, those early ballots would be discarded and those early voters would have lost their vote. I would vote for a toad over Trump so it makes me nervous to think if God forbid something happened to Biden where he was no longer the candidate, my vote would now be gone.

      That got me thinking, we hear so much push to “vote early!” What are the benefits of voting early in a non-pandemic? For me, one benefit is nothing can stop me from getting to the polls the day of if I have already voted. But why vote early? Why not turn in that absentee ballot a few days before election day? What am I missing?

      At least in my state, absentee ballots are not opened and counted until election night.

      • Anonymous

        One benefit is that you’ll stop getting all of the calls from the political parties because they can tell you voted and you get taken off their lists.

          • Anonymous

            And, added bonus – the dollars that the campaigns spend will be directed to people that still need to vote.

      • Anon

        Vote early to get it done/remove any barriers or problems on election day. You’ve seen those videos of horrid long lines at polling sites or heard those stories about personal emergencies or being suddenly unable to take time off of work on election day. Voting early at your convenience avoids that and it also gives you the time (especially if it’s an absentee ballot) to make sure that you don’t have to rush through the down-ballot races and ballot measures.

      • No more doomscrolling

        In a normal situation (no pandemic, a real choice between two candidates that both have real policy platforms that I would consider), I would probably still get a mail ballot to be more flexible. But I agree with you that the potential of an October surprise means that I probably would only vote 1-2 weeks before the election, not much longer.
        This year is just not a normal one.

    • Anonymous

      I’m loving these updates from the Elect Project. However, have you (or anyone) see on that that site a comparison against 2016? Like, October 6, 2016… how many people had voted? I suspect 4 million is a lot, but I am having trouble finding a comparison on that site and I am curious person.

      • No more doomscrolling

        Hi! The second tab on the main graphic compares votes cast compared to total 2016 turnout. The votes cast in South Dakota already add up to a whopping 22% of the 2016 turnout.
        I don’t know if there is a detailed breakdown vs. 2016 mail-in votes. But the researcher writes a weekly summary, and on Oct 4, he wrote that at this point 4 years ago, they were tracking only 75k votes.

  7. CHL

    Does anyone have a good recommendations for scoop or v-neck wool or similar layering sweaters that could be worn under a blazer or similar? I usually buy a bunch of uniqlo ones but they don’t last more than a season or so for me.

    • anne-on

      They aren’t cheap, but the Brooks Brothers Merino wool cowl neck sweaters are thin enough to layer (I usually do camisole + sweater + blazer) and surprisingly warm for their weight. They are $$, you can sometimes snag them on sale at the end of season, but I’ve never seen them much below $80 on super sale (normally about $150?).

    • Anon

      Are you washing the Uniqlo ones in the washing machine? Drying them? If you’re buying “a bunch” they should last longer than a season. Wash them in a garment bag and lie flat to dry. Any wool sweater will need to be treated the same way to last.

      • Anon

        All the Uniqlo merino I bought was horribly thin and got holes even though I hand washed. I would consider it pretty bad quality and don’t shop there anymore.

        • Anon

          Sadly, the quality went really downhill. I bought some in 2018 or so that held up beautifully through many washings but the ones I bought in 2019 developed holes almost immediately. Can’t recommend anymore.

          • CHL

            Thanks! I thought I was crazy – my strategy worked for like 3 years and then failed in 2019. On to try something else. Thank you for the BB suggestion – I’ve never gotten knits from there. I did used to love the Banana silk sweaters. If you can’t tell, I do not enjoy shopping and love when I get a “uniform” – but then I am completely discombobulated when it stops working!

          • Anon

            I read this as “the same thing happened to me, boo” and had a chuckle.

            My late best friend used to call me her “girl boo” and would have said exactly that. Miss her every day.

    • Vicky Austin

      I just got a nice slim layering sweater from Banana Republic, but can’t say whether it holds up any better than the Uniqlo ones.

  8. Newbie Hiker

    We booked a few cabins on air bnb early this summer and our reservations are FINALLY coming up! I’ve never been outdoorsy but we’re planning on doing some hiking, at least 4-5x over the next two months. DH and I only have running shoes, which have been slippery in the past (and DH also doesn’t want to ruin his with mud). Does anyone have recommendations for footwear for not serious hikers that provide better traction? We don’t need super gear, but I think we would both enjoy it more if we felt like we had more stable footing. TIA!

    • NY CPA

      A few years ago, I bought Merrell brand “hiking shoes” (unfortunately don’t remember the specific model). They’re like sneakers with better soles. Would definitely recommend. However, I would suggest wearing them around the house/town before you actually go hiking so they get broken in (and since they look like sneakers, this won’t be as weird as going to the grocery store in hiking boots!)

    • Anonymous

      Merrell has decent waterproof mid-height hikers for both men and women at a reasonable price point.

    • Flats Only

      Look for economical hiking boots – Hi Tec is a good brand, available at Zappos. less than $100, or even less than $50. They’ll provide some ankle support and a sole that is stiffer and grippier than a sneaker. What always catches up to me hiking in sneakers is the uneven footing – walking over roots/rocks/etc. is a lot more strenuous than walking around town or power walking on a paved trail. It can put a lot of strain on your knees if you’re not used to it, so throw a generic knee brace or a couple of ace bandages into your suitcase just in case, and take it easy until you get used to it.

      • Anonymous

        Seconding Hi Tec. But what always gets me is ankle sprains on uneven rocky trail. I actually prefer my Merrell Trail Gloves for low-key, not-intense hiking (which for me is day trips) as I can feel the ground better with the thinner minimalist sole.

    • pugsnbourbon

      Trail running shoes! I picked up an Adidas pair from Sierra Trading Post. They are super grippy.

    • Anon

      Merrell and Keen both make lots of light hiking boots and trail running shoes in both waterproof and non-waterproof versions. Waterproof versions are usually a little hotter and pricier but good if you’re likely to wear them when it’s cool and wet out (trails can be wet even if it’s not raining). If you’re only going to wear them when it’s reasonably nice out and your feet run hot, skip the waterproof ones. Don’t get full on real hiking boots, they’re going to be too stiff and heavy for what you’re doing.

    • Airplane.

      What you are looking for it called a “hiking sneaker.” I bought Merrell brand ones that were not too expensive and still sneaker like enough that they did not require a lot of breaking in and they were not too heavy or clunky like hiking boots. I hiked Acadia trails and several other terraformed rock trails with them – even the water resistant ones were fine for hikes with several waterfalls. I’d get waterproof if you are going to ford some rivers streams but I was fine with water resistant ones.

    • Anon

      Honestly, get waterproof hiking boots or shoes. They are great for any outdoor activity in the rain or snow, not just wearing for hikes.

    • anon a mouse

      I would go to REI or somewhere and try a few different brands to get the best fit. If you’re going to be wearing them for many hours a day over uneven terrain, it’s worth the time to get a good fit. Personally, I need hiking boots – I don’t trust my ankles as much when I am on slippery rocks or going up/downhill. I tried low-cut trail shoes (sneakers) but ended up back in boots.

    • anon

      I would recommend low hiking shoes/sneakers instead of trail running shoes. The hiking shoes will give more ankle support in case you traverse on more rugged terrains. I don’t do any serious hiking, I mostly just go on family friendly trails but even then hiking shoes are nice for when there’s some climb in the slope. In the before times I would go to REI and have them bring several pairs for me to try on. The ones I have are Oboz, not a brand I was familiar with but they look good and are comfortable, and they were the ones I liked best in person.

    • anon

      I did a six hundred mile hike in trail running shoes. They’re lighter and dry faster than traditional hiking boots.

    • Ymanon

      I’m trying on a new pair of trail runners now (literally, now), and they seem great!

      Altra lone peak trail runners 4.5. They have narrow heel, wide toe box, great trail soles, zero drop but very cushy and light. I sized up half a size (went by centimeters, not shoe sizes).

      I bought these because I wanted «barefoot» trail runners, and have wide toes. And they arrived today. :)

      Generally, though – what are your weak points? Do you get blisters easily – do preventive leuka tape or similar to avoid blisters instead of having to treat them. I always tape my heels (sticky-out-heels) and little toes.

      Do you sprain easily or have weak ankles? Consider a boot shape (Inov-8 has super light ones) to help your ankles. Same for very slippery or rocky terrain.

      For light hiking, I prefer trail runners – traction, light and comfortable.

      I saw a great shoe tip on youtube – when trying on hiking shoes, stub your toes on the floor. If you can feel your toes touching the shoe tip, they are too small to walk down hill confortably.

      Oh, and remember to wear light wool hiking socks (smartwool, icebreaker..)! Wear them trying on shoes as well.

  9. Anon

    High-risk people, can we get an update on the status of your working situations and any formal accommodations you have in place? I think my office is starting a stealth re-open and I want to make sure that my accommodations are crystal clear and tight. For now, we are (in name?) almost all WFH. A few people go in to the office on alternating days. I have a piece of paperwork signed and on file attesting that I have a high-risk condition and need to WFH, but I don’t know how much legal bite it has.

    • Anonymous

      My government job is considered essential (not sure I agree but a statute says it is), so I have not had a single day out of the office since this started. Early on, I moved to an office with a window that opens. The air vents in my office are closed and I open the window for ventilation whenever I am in the office. My office door stays shut pretty much all day unless I need to venture out for something. I have two admins whose desks are outside my office. There is now plexiglass in front of their cubicles outside my office. I also skip the elevator. I come in early to avoid being in the halls with others and tend to stay past when others leave. We also have asked for people that we know are not taking this seriously to have their workstations moved — and amazingly, they have been moved with no issue. So far, we have been able to stay healthy. Good luck with any return to the office.

    • Anon

      I wish I could help. I’m high risk (immunocompromised) and I lost my job – kind of a good riddance to bad garbage situation, so don’t feel bad – and I have been both doing some consulting and looking for a new job. But I’ve turned down three opportunities from companies that were extremely reluctant to let their workforce WFH and held out until ordered by the governor to do so.

      My friend who works for one of those companies suggested that I could accept the job while everyone is still WFH, and then when they bring everyone back into the office I could ask for ADA accommodations in order to continue WFH. I don’t know if that would work, but if so maybe a possible route for you? At the end of the day, it wasn’t something I wanted to roll the dice on.

      Keep us updated! I think a lot of people want to know how returning to the office is going to work.

    • anon

      A friend of mine is a care taker of her elderly parent who is high risk and she was able to get her extremely conservative employer to let her work from home. This is in Georgia where the governor opens eveything up for business anyway. The company allows for it but makes it at the supervisor’s discretion so I guess YMMV as all things go. I’m in government and we’re still WFH but supposedly there will be an application to fill out if we want to telework once we’re open again. Not sure what the criteria are. I’m not high risk but WFH has been a godsend for my general health because I cut out commute time, I get to cook and eat properly and have less anxiety about bathroom time (public bathroom is the bane of existence).

  10. Anon

    since i am going to be cooking Thanksgiving dinner for the first time in my life – does anyone have an EASY/low maintenance turkey recipe? and a stuffing recipe that does not involve shellfish, dairy or pork products? Any other Thanksgiving tips? It will only be me, DH and 2 toddlers, but I still want to cook.

    • BB

      If you’re okay going non-traditional, a spatchcocked turkey is super easy (you take out its backbone and make it flat), cooks faster, and yields a more even roast. You can then make any stuffing recipe in a second roasting pan, which is also easier and less messy than actually stuffing the turkey. My other suggestion is to buy an instant-read thermometer which will take all the guess work out of both the turkey and the stuffing.

      • Anon

        I personally don’t find it easy to cut the backbone out, and it’s also very messy. In addition, if your turkey ends up being on the large side, it’s hard to find a roasting pan it will fit in. I spatchcoked a 10-12 lb turkey and it barely fit on my half sheet pan.

        I like pre-salting my whole bird a day or two before cooking it, and then just simply roasting it unstuffed.

        But if you want to just put the turkey in the oven, do that. This is my favorite video about it

        https://youtu.be/foA0MGUbYH0

        Good luck!

      • Anonymous

        I order my turkey from a local but her. He cuts the backbone out before I bring it home. I agree that spatchcocked is the best & easiest. Try the recipe on the Serious Eats website.

    • emeralds

      This is my favorite turkey recipe: https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/ina-garten/perfect-roast-turkey-recipe4-1943576

      I am not the stuffing maker in my household, so I can’t help you there, sorry.

      I’m a big fan of detailed Thanksgiving lists. Break the prep down day by day–do whatever you can do the day before, even if it’s just stuff like chopping a butternut squash or dicing onions, or setting the table (depending on how viable that is with your toddler/pet situation). Definitely write yourself a timeline for the day of, so you don’t realize at the last minute that you have 5 things that need stove burners at the same time. Plan out what you’re serving everything in–I wash all my bowls/platters, lay them out on a table, and label them.

      • OP

        i can’t use dairy on our turkey. or in any recipes. ideas for how to adapt the turkey recipe?

        • emeralds

          Apologies, I read your post as saying that the stuffing needed to be dairy free, not that the turkey did as well. So in that case I agree with Anonymous that I’d use a vegan or dairy-free butter substitute–turkey doesn’t have that much flavor on its own, so IMO adding the richness is really key.

          According to Google, my old standby Stove Top Stuffing Mix is dairy-free, if you really want something that’s 1) as easy as possible, and 2) a Thanksgiving classic for families across America. Granted, I am not that into stuffing, but I think it tastes fine. The stuffing connoisseurs in my family disagree. YMMV.

        • Anon

          I’m dairy free and love Earth Balance. If you have other things you need a dairy free substitute for just ask.

    • Cat

      Biggest tip for the turkey- don’t do the whole bird. You can buy just the breast. Way easier to fit in the oven and predict the cooking time.

      • Vicky Austin

        Came here to say this!! So much better for small households. You can polish off the meat in a day or two and don’t have to eat turkey sandwiches for a week.

        • Anonymous

          The meat comes out less dry, too, because you don’t have to overcook the light meat to get the dark meat to the right temperature.

    • Anonymous

      Do two turkey breasts in one pan and the stuffing in a separate pan. I like the stuffing recipe from the Kitchn – the classic sage one. Just sub vegan margarine for the butter listed and cut the salt in half because the butter is unsalted but it’s hard to find unsalted vegan margarine. And maybe slightly less than 2 cups broth so that the moisture balance is right.

    • Betsy

      I made this turkey and stuffing the first time I hosted Thanksgiving, and I have followed the same turkey recipe every year since then because I love it so much. It does call for brining, which might not fall within your idea of a simple recipe. But brining is a great insurance policy against a dry turkey and as long as you have a really big pot and can make room in your fridge I think it’s really worthwhile!
      https://www.bonappetit.com/recipe/cider-brined-and-glazed-turkey

      The cookbook I flip through each year at the start of my Thanksgiving prep is Thanksgiving: How to Cook It Well, by Sam Sifton. It is a great resource for a simple, traditional meal and definitely has several variations on a very simple roast turkey recipe. I’m hosting an outdoors thanksgiving in a couple weeks (so as to have it before it gets too cold outside!) and am planning on reading through it this weekend to get my planning started!

        • Anon

          Totally random but please check with guests before using avocado oil. I have an avocado allergy (plus many others) and I never would think to tell my host for a turkey dinner about my avocado allergy since avocados are not normally part of a thanksgiving meal. I get that the burden is on me but avocados are starting to pop up freaking everywhere now. I have to ask when getting things like cupcakes now. Some people look at me like I’m crazy, others know avocados are now being used as a substitute in so many things.

          • Anonymous

            Are you reactive to the oil though even if you are allergic to the fruit itself? Peanut oil is not declared on packaging in the US on the basis that it’s separated from the protein that actually causes the reaction. Europe labels it because they don’t agree re risk. (lack of a peanut lobby IDK).

          • Avocado Allergy

            I don’t actually know. Probably a question for my doctor. We identified my allergy through process of elimination (the common denominator in all my trips to the hospital) and since I cut it out I haven’t been back to the hospital. Because of that, we never did any formal testing to confirm or deny it. My reaction is bad enough that I would not want to intentionally risk it, but I will certainly look into it. As for baked goods, I think they are actually using avocado meat (is that even the right word?) rather than oil. It’s as a thickener or binder I think.

      • Anon

        If your guest is truly dairy free, make sure your butter substitute has no whey or casein in it either. That’s why I recommended Earth Balance above.

      • Senior Attorney

        +1 I’ve been doing dry-salting for several years and much better in every way

    • team small t-dinner

      Serious Eats did a write-up on Thanksgiving for different size crowds. You can get the turkey spatchcocked at the meat counter if you go that route. I’d also encourage you to figure out 1-2 items you want to cook and get the rest pre-made/store bought. don’t overdo yourself – enjoy the prep, the cooking, and the meal!

  11. A.

    Morning. I’m grumpy because our family was going to go away for a long weekend starting Friday, using a family friend’s cabin about two hours away. Totally isolated, bring our own groceries, no stops on the way…but now my five year old has been exposed to COVID (a classmate was diagnosed on Thursday) so we’re in a two week quarantine. This especially burns because the family of the diagnosed kid does not believe in masks (although they wear them at school b/c it’s required)…but that’s neither here nor there.

    So: I’m going to try to use this upcoming time off (four day weekend) to be productive. I’d like to make 3-5 freezer meals…what are your favorites? I have semi-picky kids but we’re carnivores who will eat cuisine from any country. Would love some recommendations!

    • Anonymous

      I make the gourmet magazine spaghetti and meatballs and freeze for my family of 4. It’s not fancy, but is tasty and makes a lot to freeze for individual meals.

    • Anon

      baked ziti, turkey chili. and also, feeling so frustrated and annoyed on your behalf

    • Anonymous

      Ugh, I am so sorry. Can you get Covid tested so that quarantine can be shortened at least? Also, enchiladas, chicken and wild rice soup, and other Pinch of Yum freezer meals.

      • Anon

        this is not how covid works. the reason for the two week quarantine, is that while unlikely, it is possible to test negative on day 13, but then test positive on day 14. the average incubation period seems to be more like around 5-7 days, but it can be up to two weeks

      • Anon

        That’s not how quarantine works. You need to quarantine for 14 days after exposure to Covid because you can fall sick at any point in that window. If you test, you may have just tested too early and could expose others the day after your negative test. Don’t discourage OP from doing the right thing.

    • Anon

      Curious why you can’t quarantine at the cabin if it’s just your immediate family, and you’re not stopping along the way.

      • NYCer

        I was going to ask the same thing. What is the difference vs. quarantining at home?

      • Anon

        I’m guessing they don’t want to contaminate the cabin that someone else will be staying in after them? If it is feasible, they should still disclose to the owner to be safe.

        • A.

          Anon at 1:43 is correct. I don’t want to worry about putting our family friend in a weird situation — I know they would not want us to go there having been exposed, which is COMPLETELY their right. I’m grumpy at the nonbelieving family whose actions have caused me to have to cancel a much-needed trip.

  12. Pet mourning

    For those of you that lost a long-term pet, how did you know you were “ready” to adopt a new one? We just lost our cat of 15 years a few weeks ago. I’m pretty sure I want another cat at some point, but I’m also pretty sure I don’t want to do it now. Every cat I see just reminds me of our cat. I went to a cat cafe yesterday and couldn’t stop tearing up petting the cats, so yeah…guessing that’s “not ready” :)

    • Pet mourning

      Guess I should add in case it wasn’t obvious…last cat was my first cat/pet ever, so I have no experience with this.

    • Anonymous

      Yeah, when you’re still at the crying and petting stage, I don’t think you’re ready. Same when you’re looking at cats that remind you of your old one.That’s what I found. For a point of reference, I just adopted two after seven months. My old cat was my soulmate cat and he was 20 when he passed

    • Anon

      I’m so sorry. Losing a beloved part is incredibly hard. I think you are almost ready – keep looking at cats and see if any “speak” to you.

    • Anon

      I adopted my current cat three months after my cat died at the age of 17. I wasn’t ready, in some respects, but she was the right cat for my family.

    • LawDawg

      If you miss having a cat but don’t know if you are ready for a commitment, consider fostering. You can give one or more kitties some love and a break from a shelter and figure out when you might be ready. Most people think of fostering as being for kittens, but older cats need it too.

    • Anon

      You’re ready when one shows up and declares you theirs, at least that’s the way it’s always worked for me and has been anywhere between 6 months and 3 years.

      • Anonyz

        Yep, this is what cats do. I had another cat before I was ready, because my tuxie uses doorknobs and she literally let herself into my kitchen and decided she lives here. Her younger brother dragged his emaciated self into our garage as an unweaned orphan. They just…appear, and they need you.

      • Pet mourning

        Yep, this is what cats do. I had another cat before I was ready, because my tuxie uses doorknobs and she literally let herself into my kitchen and decided she lives here. Her younger brother dragged his emaciated self into our garage as an unweaned orphan. They just…appear, and they need you.

      • Anon

        Same. I was going to sag exactly this. I think your cat chooses you. After my late cat broke my heart, we were catless for months, and then there were these two adorable feral to domesticated kittens that needed a home…. you wouldn’t believe what fat, lazy bros they are now.

        • Anon

          And I get your point that your next cat isn’t going to find you in your city living conditions. In my case, it was someone I knew in the country who sent me a pic and asked if I could take them.

    • anon

      For me I just knew one day. I had my 17 year old dog put down in June, and I assumed I’d want a year or more before getting another dog, but by November I was excited to adopt one again. And I was at peace with being reminded of him, because one day it started to feel like a great way to honor his memory to get another dog- He built such a tenderness and patience in me and a love of dogs and the willingness to give one a home and it felt like his memory is definitely part of my decision to adopt another one, but it felt good and not aimed at replacing him at all.

      For me it was a question of whether I felt like my new dog would be a replacement or just a new addition to my life, and just on a gut level whether it felt right.

    • Anon

      Our oldest dog had to be put down when he was almost 16. I swore I was not going to get another dog for at least a year. He was old and had numerous health problems, it was time for him to go, but I loved him so much. I was heartbroken.

      Three months later I saw someone rehoming a dog on Craigslist and when I looked at the picture, my heart melted. I had just told my husband, I can’t get used to the silence in the house with the dogs gone (we’d lost our other one to cancer a year before our older one was put down). We brought her home and it was totally the right call. She filled a hole in our lives that helped us get over the loss of our other two dogs.

      You’ll know when it’s the right time. For some people it’s the next day. For some people it’s years later. You never forget your previous pets but the love you have for your new ones, in my experience, is just as strong and I experience just as much joy caring for our new dogs.

    • Pet mourning

      Thanks for all the kind words and advice! Sounds like it’s a “when you know, you’ll know” kind of thing, which is both reassuring and super vague :)

      I will also look into fostering. There’s a 99% chance my first run at it will be a foster fail, but it’s a great idea as I think we want a cat that’s honestly more lazy and standoffish than most people would prefer, and it’s hard to judge what their energy/affection levels are in a shelter.

      • Anon Probate Atty

        So sorry for your loss. For me, I am not sure I ever felt ready of my own accord, but once I visited some shelter dogs, I felt more ready.

    • Anon

      I’m so sorry about your loss. Your grieving process will take many turns and will continue even after you find a new fluffball. When I lost my dear sweet boy, I wanted some time for my younger cat to be an “only child”. There were also some life changes that I anticipated and I wanted to settle down with those before adding a new baby. One day, I was just looking online and magically fell in love with one sweet face. It was as simple as that. It may take time. And that’s OK. All of these suggestions are great. I will say, though, if it’s only been a few weeks give it a little more time. Allow the grief to be felt and processed.

    • Another anon

      I’m so, so sorry. I have been in your situation, though with dogs, and honestly there was just one day where I thought, “I’m ready.” Everyone’s timetable is different, but for me, it was at least a month. My house had never been cleaner because I no longer had toys strewn about, or drool marks on the hardwood, or hair along the baseboards, but it sure as heck was quiet. I reached a point where I was still sad, but I knew there was a dog with a crappy life out there who needed love and care, and I could provide that. And then I slowly started getting excited about adopting a new dog, because I remembered how happy I felt when I brought a new dog home–seeing him check out his new bed, his new toys, his new yard. It’s just nice to have another living thing at home keeping you company, you know? The joy I feel by having a pet is well worth the heartbreak of saying goodbye.

      I wish you all the best as you navigate this tough time. For me, I like to print my favorite pictures of the pets I’ve lost. Nothing fancy, just 4×6 prints, and I keep them in a Kolo photo album so I can flip through when I feel nostalgic.

    • aBr

      We adopted a new cat within three weeks of putting our 18 year old cat down. It was an impulsive decision, but I wouldn’t trade our current cat for the world. I will say going from an 18 year old cat to a 1 year old cat was certainly an adjustment and in a way helped because they are so different from each other.

    • anon

      Our 15 YO dog died and we were beyond despondent. Unlike some of the commenters here, we actually didn’t wait. We got our new girl a week later and she’s been with us now for 6+ years! For us, we really needed that void filled – it didn’t mean we missed or loved the deceased dog any less, but we moved quickly and it was so so right for us. We wanted the joy.

    • Anon

      I thought more about you and came back for another comment – I’m the commenter with the two formerly feral bros.

      Are the cats at the cat cafe adoptable? If so, and you haven’t felt moved to adopt one of them yet, then that’s a sign you’re not ready. If they’re not adorable, and you find yourself visiting a cat cafe because you miss having a cat to pet, maybe you are ready.

      In the latter case, my suggestion is to subscribe to Facebook pages or emails from a cat shelter. I suspect that if you do this, one day you’ll see a pic of a cat that was meant to be yours.

      Hugs to you.

      • Anon

        PS for all the cat lovers. I got to see my first cat butt on zoom today – it was brief because cat owner was frantically trying to get the cat off her desk – but it was hilarious.

    • Full of ideas

      I couldn’t even think of it for about 8 months, then I warmed up to it and we adopted our 2nd rescues dog 10 month after our first baby left us. I think you will just know, and don’t rush it!

  13. bellatrix

    Looking for advice on buying a bike when you’re plus-size. This would be for gentle trails and going around the neighborhood – not serious commuting or serious mountain-ing. The models I’ve found that are specifically rated for heavy people are more expensive than I’d like (in the $1K+ range). I think I could get by with a standard bike if it were sturdy (so not a $50 cheapie) but I’m not sure what features to look for. The local bike shops have not been super helpful when I’ve messaged them (possibly because they didn’t have much in stock anyway, because everyone else had the same idea I did, so what did it matter), and we’re still isolating pretty strictly so I don’t want to have to go in person until/unless I’m very serious.

    • Anonymous

      Are there used bike stores in your area? I have a 1990s chrome moly frame bike that I bet would be fine. The frame weighs a ton, so maybe that is a minus, but it has been an unstoppable tank. Our whole family needs new bikes (kids have grown; my bike is probably smaller than I should have gotten but people didn’t really fit bikes back then) but we can’t donate / resell these b/c we can’t get replacements.

    • cbackson

      I highly recommend checking out Marley Blonsky’s blog, Life on Two Wheels. It has a page of specific gear recommendations including bikes, clothes, etc. for plus-sized people.

        • cbackson

          Allow me to briefly say that she is INCREDIBLY AWESOME and I fangirl her really hard.

      • Marley

        Hi friends- it’s Marley… Thanks so much for being a fan of mine? I feel really humbled and honored that folks out there know of me and my work.

        A few comments below touched on the most important things I recommend to people looking for a bike – frame strength, wheels, and replacing components so they’re more comfortable for you.

        Most manufacturers publish the structural weight limits for their bikes in the owners manual. It can be a pain in the ass to find, but the bike shop should be able to locate this for you. If they can’t – leave. Don’t give them your money.

        Wheels can be built stronger – often the stock wheels that come from the factory suck. Don’t let this be a limiting factor for you.

        Seats, handlebars, grips, pedals- all of these things can be replaced to make your bike both more comfortable and aesthetically pleasing. If you find a bike that fits you but you don’t like the look of something, you can most likely change it.

        Finally, my favorite recommendation right now for an entry-level bike with a weight limit up to 350 lbs – the Kona Coco. Happy to help out with more questions if I can!

    • Anonymous

      Out of curiosity, at what point are you considered plus size for the purposes of a bike? I am somewhat newly plus size – thanks Covid – and wondering if my bike is OK

      • Anon

        It’s not about size but weight. You can probably look up your model and see how it is rated. Also have to be aware of some stuff like lawn furniture. I have some plastic Adirondack chairs that are only rated to 200 lbs and my husband weighs more than that.

      • bellatrix

        About 200 pounds seems to be the tipping point for a lot of things (bikes, furniture, etc.) I am decently above that right now, and it’s not like things creak when I sit on them, but I know I need some good structure.

    • Anon

      Plenty of 225-250 pound men cycle and the only equipment modification the ones I know make are with their wheels. As long as you’re not going to great lengths to minimize weight (of your bike… you rock on no matter what size you are!), you should be fine. It’s big dudes who try to use the lightest/fastest gear who tend to pop spokes, crack carbon and that sort of thing.
      One more thing – stick with known name brands. Cycling, like most things nowadays, have knock-offs whose faults tend to become apparent when put under stress. Inferior carbon fiber doesn’t look any different than name brand, high quality carbon fiber to the naked eye, but can and does crack/collapse when loaded. There was a big issue with Chinese knock-off wheels a few years ago, along with other bits and bobs.
      Cycling is a ton of fun and I hope you find a bike that fits well. In my area, the entry level, all-around bike of choice for people of all sizes tends to be the Salsa Journeyman. It is in that $1000 range, but is really versatile, is high enough quality that it can last you forever with regular maintenance, but doesn’t have a ton of stuff that costs extra and wouldn’t benefit a new/recreational rider.

    • Anon

      I’m not sure that you really need a special bike that is rated for a certain weight. Generally you buy a frame sized for your height rather than weight. I would buy some sort of hybrid, like a low end Trek, which new should be under $500. I would also buy a men’s bike unless you plan to bike in a skirt. Women’s bikes sometimes don’t work well with water bottles.

      • Marley

        This is kind of dangerous advice. Bikes have specific structural weight limits, especially when you’re looking at higher end carbon or racing-style frames.

        Many brands are also shifting away from mens/womens specific frames and towards a more neutral geometry based on sizing.

      • pugsnbourbon

        I have a Trek hybrid that I think was about $400 (this 10 years ago). I still have it; don’t bike a ton but it’s held up well.

    • Anon

      My husband is plus-size and for him buying a bike with a sturdier frame has made a big difference in his comfort and reducing flat tires and broken spokes, so at least from his experience, I do think it’s worth the extra investment to get a bike that will be a good fit for your body.

    • Coach Laura

      My husband is easily 250 and is fine on his Surly Cross Check. He also has a Nash bike with skinny tires (700*25) and when he had a pinch flat he asked the guys at REI if he got the pinch flats because he was too heavy for the bike/tires, they said no but he’s not convinced. So I don’t think unless you’re 250+ that weight should be a concern. If you’re 250+ then research blogs like other posters indicated.

  14. anon

    I think I have water damage around some of my windows. What kind of person do I call to come look at it?

    • Flats Only

      A handyman. Since it sounds minor he will be able to find any leaks and fix them. Have you had any severe storms lately? One of our windows leaked once (in 20 years in this house) during a very bad thunderstorm. Nothing since then. So if you’ve had a bad storm get the damage fixed but don’t let someone convince you that you need to replace the window.

  16. anon for this

    My Mom cheated on my Dad earlier this year and they are now divorcing. It is a rough divorce with a lot of drama, crying, angry phone calls. Mom now wants me to introduce me to her affair partner who she is planning on marrying when the divorce is final. I really don’t want to meet this guy or hang out with him, ever. Please help me figure out what to say to Mom.

    • Anon

      Just what you said here: you don’t want to meet this guy or hang out with him. Don’t JADE; just say it.

      Cynically, I think people who cheat will be upset at any sort of pushback on their new life, so your choice is to either slap on the smile and pretend that this is all okay, or tell her point-blank that you don’t want to be around him.

      • anon for this

        Yes, this is where Mom is at. She checked out of her marriage years ago. Because the marriage was over in her own mind, she feels her affair is justified and that as her adult children, we should be happy for her. She wants to integrate this guy into the family and is mad I won’t include him in Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc. I am glad Mom and Dad are divorcing and feel like both of them will ultimately be better off. Still, Mom’s glee about her affair is majorly off-putting.

        • another anon for this

          I commented below, but just wanted to say here that I am in a similar situation (adult child, parents’ marriage was never great, dad cheated on mom and is honestly better suited for mistress-now-wife). Doesn’t mean the affair was justified. I want both my parents to be happy but the cheating hurt my mom and hurt me, and there’s no getting around that.

    • Anonymous

      “I am not comfortable meeting Bob right now. I will let you know if that changes.”

      Repeat ad nauseum. Don’t engage, discuss etc.

    • Anonie

      I am so very sorry.

      If it were me, I would put my foot down for now and explain that this pain and shock is too fresh at the moment. If you are close to your mom and respect her judgement generally, gently reemphasize that you love and respect her, want the best for her, and that you are comfortable reevaluating in X amount of time. Also, it may help you to “get it off your chest” by telling her in no uncertain terms that, despite your unconditional love for her, you do not and cannot condone cheating.

      In the meantime, it may help you to see a therapist. At the very least, focus on self-reflective practices like journaling, reading, meditating (I don’t have luck meditating, but it seems to help others) etc.

      Also, it will help your relationship with your mom long-term to remind yourself that you don’t know the ins and outs of her marriage with your dad. By no means do I intend to justify cheating, which is morally wrong on many levels…my point is that it will help to remind yourself that your parents are imperfect humans and that you as their adult child could never have known or predicted the intricacies of their relationship

    • Vicky Austin

      I would definitely say, “Not now. I don’t want to meet anyone until the dust settles with you and Dad.” Maybe give her a timeline, like six months after their divorce is final. It may not stick, or it may come up then when you are better prepared to talk to her calmly about why you don’t want to meet him.

      • Vicky Austin

        Sorry – I mean her relationship with New Guy may not stick, making it a non-issue.

    • Cat

      I think you have to take the long view here- because if she DOES remarry him, are you never going to see her again?

      I would try to be neutral-civil in tone and say “I’m not ready to meet him” and leave it at that.

      • Airplane.

        I see your point but I don’t think she has to take the long view right now. If it just happened she gets to deal with the fall out and wall herself off from her mom’s affair partner. In 6 months or a year if this guy is still around she can revisit. But right now she can try to be there for her dad and herself to navigate this.

        • Cat

          Fair point. I was trying to explain- poorly- that I would try not to lash out with anger about the thought of meeting him, say things like “I will never meet him” etc. Just calmly say- no, this is too soon, I’m not ready, let’s discuss later, that type of thing.

          • Airplane.

            I agree with you on not lashing out. “I do not want to meet him or hear you gush about the man you cheated on my dad with” to me is completely reasonable. Her mom can find other people to do that with (girlfriend’s) not OP, her daughter from her marriage.

      • anon for this

        Yes, this is my major concern. I am worried she is serious about marrying this guy so I want to be careful about what I say while still setting a hard boundary. I still love Mom and want her in my life long-term.

    • Airplane.

      “I’m not ready to meet the man you cheated on dad with. My pain and shock is still very fresh. Please respect that. I will let you know if that changes, please don’t bring it up with me.”

    • anon

      So, take with a grain of salt because this all happened when I was a young child and I’m 32 now. My mom did the same thing when I was 2, and the divorce/separation/drama stretched out until I was 7, she also married her affair partner, and in retrospect I wish I had just made my position on the matter known from the beginning instead of acting like everything was fine. She asked me what I thought of them getting married and if I liked him, and I said that I did and it was fine. I was 6, so I guess I give myself a pass but I often looked back wishing I had just said what was on my mind, because later when I wanted to create some distance it was more of an ordeal. You have the luxury of being able to just be clear about what you want from the beginning. I think it may be difficult and not feel good, but it’ll feel worse if you have to reset expectations later.

      • Anon Probate Atty

        Please give yourself a break. You were a very small child. Surely no one, including yourself, could have expected you to voice your opinions, or even understand fully what those opinions were at that time. I’m sorry for what you have been through.

        • Anonymous

          This so much. I have two 6 year olds and I can’t imagine either of them being able to explain nuanced feelings about a situation like this. Definitely give yourself a break. You have zero responsibility at age 6 to be able to articulate your feelings about a hard subject.

    • Anon Probate Atty

      I’m sorry, and I agree with what others have said. Give yourself time to get over the shock and let things settle down before trying to establish a relationship with this person.

    • another anon for this

      I’m so sorry that you’re going through this. This is hard. My Dad cheated on my Mom. They (eventually) divorced. My dad (eventually) married his affair partner. It happened over a longer period of time (maybe a year or two) and it’s been a few years now. I didn’t meet my dad’s former-affair-partner-now-wife until well after the divorce was final, though this was probably made easier by the fact that I lived in a different country. I was also pretty hard on my dad – I told him that I’d always think of her at the person who he cheated with and it was hard to get over that. That said, I do think my parents were never well suited for each other and he’s probably much better paired with his new wife (though I’ll never say this to either of my parents). I also don’t avoid her when I go to visit or anything, though she wasn’t invited to my wedding (though she was married to my dad at this point. It was more because my mom would’ve been a disaster if she were there. My dad was sad but supportive on this.)

      Anyways, to answer your question, I fully support you telling her that he’s the guy she cheated with (and who had an affair with a married woman), and that action hurt your dad and hurt you too, and you’re not ready to meet him. (Virtual) hugs to you!

  17. Anonymous

    Help me shop for a sofa for my new (bigger) office? I’d like something colorful/not-dreary but not so colorful that it looks like a college dorm room. A very senior woman partner has a lime green sofa but idk if I could pull that off. I have about 6 feet of space to work with. Most of the colorful sofas I’m seeing on Wayfair are velvet; is velvet an office appropriate fabric for a couch? Thanks all!

  18. Recommendation for daylight lamp?

    Looking to get a ligh-lux daylight lamp in anticipation of a long, cold and dark winter in the home office. Any recommendations?

    • Anon

      Maybe not what you’re looking for, but I have this one and have been pleased for two years. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00K08ZDBI/

      I’m actually thinking this winter might be a little better than normal since I’ll be able to sit near a window at home all day (my interior office at work doesn’t have one) and I’ll be able to get out for fresh air more often than I can from my 12th floor office.

  19. Anon

    I need another makeup thread to take my mind off.. oh, you know, everything?

    Have any of you transitioned to drugstore brand cosmetics from higher end stuff, and what items do you kick yourself thinking why did I spend so much before? I’m currently a Trish McEvoy/Dior/dr Jart user. I am only interested in tubey mascara, otherwise wide open to all suggestions!

    • Anon

      Seven years ago, I was getting ready for a night out and needed a video to show me how to do eye makeup. I discovered Emily and have been following her ever since. She’s a former news anchor who’s now a professional (?) YouTuber and SAHM and she’s an amazing down-to-earth, real person who finds the best products from drugstores and Ulta. https://www.youtube.com/user/emilynoel83

    • Anonymous

      Taking this from a different perspective, I have almost always used drugstore makeup and I am about to upgrade on blush. I cannot find a drugstore blush with any staying power. Of course I will follow for suggestions.

      • Anon

        NARSA orgasm is a classic for a reason, and kat posted a link to it being on sale. The lasting power has to do with it being heavily pigmented vs drugstore products.

        If you find blush won’t stay on you in any powder format, then you’re looking for a cream blush. NARS also makes one in a stick format. I used it for years while traveling – I also got the orgasm shade in that. I would describe just the stick format as equal parts highlighter and blush.

      • anon

        Yes I’m also a fan of cream blush. I’ve tried Glossier cloudpaint, elf sticks, etc. The NARS multistick (for me in Portofino) is my preferred for staying power.

    • eertmeert

      I love the Vanicream gentle cleanser. It’s simple but works as a great morning facewash or second cleanse at night.
      I think there are really good cream eyeshadows in the drugstore, namely Maybelline and Revlon. I think Cover Girl also came out with a cream eyeshadow but i havent tried it yet. Also, brow products. NYX has really good brow stuff, of all the types, pencils, gels, etc. Makeup Revolution (at Ulta) brow pomade is awesome.
      e.l.f. has some surprisingly good skin care with some of their $10 boosters. Given high rating on Beautypedia. And some folks really love their primers. The primer putty is usually low on stock whenever I go to the drugstore.

      • Anon

        I’m really hooked on my La Roche Posay Toleraine cleanser (which I use after an oil cleanser at night, alone in the AM if I need it). Thankfully it’s drugstore, though sort of Hugh end price-wise for drugstore.

        I’ve been trying to move from eyebrow pencil to a brow mascara type product, like Glossier Boy Brow. I have the Anastasia one in a sample size, but I find it a bit clumpy. Do you like any drugstore versions?

        • eertmeert

          I like Glossier Boy Brow and Colourpop dupe, Brow Boss. I don’t find either of them clumpy, and they apply nicely.

    • givemyregards

      I use the l’oreal tubey mascara and really like it. I’ve tried several more expensive brands over the years and keep coming back to it. After trying a bunch of high end foundations (including the Armani foundation everyone raves about), I’ve also stuck with an Almay one for the past few years that just matches my particularly shade/texture so much better.

        • Anon

          I think l’oreal just has the one tube mascara, or anyway I have never paid any attention to the name when purchasing, I’ve just bought the one that’s tube type.

        • givemyregards

          The mascara is the “L’Oreal Paris Makeup Double Extend Beauty Tubes,” and the foundation is the “Almay Clear Complexion Makeup,” I use shade 300 in case you’re in that range, it skews towards yellow undertones.

  20. Anon

    What is it with men selling things (or buying them) on the internet? I just called someone back about some patio furniture I was interested in buying and had tentatively arranged to look at today. I called him just now to say I shouldn’t buy anything right now (cuz Covid) and to cancel the admittedly tentative appointment. Just thought it was polite. He instead told me to get friends some other way and to get “help” and not waste his time and other stuff.

    Like, WTF?

    • Anon

      Well I would also be frustrated to have arranged my day around someone coming to buy something and then have them back out because they “shouldn’t be buying things” (I mean, why did you make the appointment if you knew you shouldn’t be buying things?) so I’m not sure it’s a man thing.

      I would not generalize about ALL MEN from that experience, where you’re in the wrong.

          • Anonymous

            It would be better to have not made the appointment. And since you did something annoying to him it’s weird to start complaining about how terrible men are because of this interaction.

          • Cat

            No- just why did you bother setting up the appointment at all if you knew you didn’t want to spend extra money right now?

            I agree his response was bizarre and out of whack, but wouldn’t blame him for being a little annoyed with you either.

          • Anonymous

            No. Canceling was the right thing to do if you weren’t going to buy. It sounds like you and this guy had a personality clash based on the delivery of your message (too friendly) and he was incredibly rude and inappropriate as a result. Move on. It’s a him thing, not a men thing.

          • anon

            No, it would be better to not make an appointment if you shouldn’t buy whatever it is you’re making an appointment to see. It’s not like covid is a new thing that came up overnight to change OP’s (your?) plans.

      • Anonymous

        Yeah I think OP is in the wrong here. Buying online second hand is about efficiency. There’s basically two rules:
        1. Try and put all info into a single concise email.
        2. Show up exactly on time, prepared with cash and transportation.

        • Anonymous

          Wow, as someone who recently sold a few things online these responses are really surprising me. 75% of people who have contacted me flaked for one reason or another and I figured that was pretty par for the course. Ideal? No. Normal? Yes. OP, this stranger’s opinion is that guy was a jerk.

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