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Sales of note for 8.30.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – 30% off full-price purchase; $99 jackets, dresses & shoes; extra 50% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50-70% off everything + extra 20% off
- Bergdorf Goodman – Final Days Designer Sale, up to 75% off; extra 20% off sale
- Boden – 20% off
- Brooks Brothers – Extra 25% off clearance
- Eloquii – Up to 60% off everything; extra 60% off all sale
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide; extra 60% off sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – Extra 20% off orders $125+; extra 60% off clearance; 60%-70% off 100s of styles
- Lo & Sons – Summer sale, up to 50% off (ends 9/2)
- Madewell – Extra 40% off sale; extra 50% off select denim; 25% off fall essentials
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Rothy's – End of season sale, up to 50% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear in the big sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 25% off regular-price purchase; 70% off clearance
- White House Black Market – Up to 70% off sale
Some of our latest posts here at Corporette…
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And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
pugsnbourbon
Y’all I’ve been having a WEEK. Please tell me something that has delighted you lately or that you are looking forward to this weekend.
Anon
Is it too early to page Shots! Shots! Shots! ?
Cb
Work has been hellish, the cat has been at the vet for two days, and my husband leaves for two weeks on Sunday. But on the bright side – I got a call from the nursery director yesterday and thought uh oh, sick day, but apparently my son has been watching the big kids get ready for forest school for weeks and decided to carpe diem. He got his coat and bag and joined the queue. 5 hours in the forest, lunch in a yurt, he had a wonderful time! He’s not even 2, he had no idea where people were going, only that it looked fun and he should go to! We should all be so bold.
Anonymous
And no one at day care noticed?!?!
Cb
Haha, no, they called to ask for permission for him to go along! They are super free range but I don’t think they’d let a kid sneak on a bus Home Alone 2 style.
Equestrian attorney
That is both adorable and terrifying (that no one at daycare noticed!).
Anonymous
That’s awesome that instead of seeing it as a problem the daycare called and asked you if he could go along! I hope he had a great day at forest school (how do I get invited along on a trip to forest school???).
anon
I want to go to forest school please
Lobby-est
Me too!
LAnon
What I’m hearing you say is… if I get in line for forest school today, someone will call my boss to get permission and I can eat lunch in a yurt?? Where does the line start???
Anon
Behind me, bish!
anon a mouse
Right behind me, because that sounds amazing and perfect for today.
Cb
Apparently, but you have to have the swagger and cheeky grin of a toddler!
Anonymous
Yes! I think my daughter is just a little older than your son and I love this story so much. (My kid would totally love forest school too!)
Anon
my neighbor is house-sitting an adorable white fluffball pup, and the pup is trained to stand (almost upright) on her hind legs and waggle both her front paws to “say hello” or “say goodbye”. The look of satisfaction in her eyes at human reactions is extremely entertaining. I’m not even a dog person and I can’t get enough of her!
Anonymous
My daughter graduates high school!! I had her when I was very young (a senior in high school) and so we have really grown up together. She was at all my graduations– my high school graduation (she was 6 months old), my college graduation (she was 4 years old), and my law school graduation (she was 7 years old.) I am so proud of her!! (and happy and relieved she did not take the same path I did).
Law mama
That is amazing. Congratulations to both of you
Anonymous
Big clap for you! That is amazing. Good for you both!
Anonymous
mazel tov to you and your family that is lovely!!
Falstaff
Aww, congratulations to you both!
Anon
This is so sweet! Thank you for sharing it.
Never too many shoes...
Congratulations to you and your daughter!
Cb
That’s wonderful, congrats to you both!
anon
Congratulations mama and daughter!
HSAL
You are awesome.
pugsnbourbon
More claps! Well done to you both.
Vicky Austin
That is the absolute coolest! Congratulations to you and her!
Senior Attorney
This is wonderful! Congratulations and happy early Mother’s Day!
Anon
Lorelai, that is amazing! Congratulations.
Jo March
Congratulations!!
Anon
My friend finally got a permanent job, thanks in part to the advice from this board!
Anon
I got in at 1am from 10 days of travel and my husband and kids had cleaned the house top to bottom and left me flowers and a welcome home sign.
Azera
Oh this is so lovely :)
Anonymous
This is the absolute best!! I love when my husband does stuff like this. A clean house beats almost anything in my book!
nestle
My daughter is learning to feed herself. Basically, she tries to pick up food (mostly it sticks to her hands with spit) and aims her hand in the general direction of her mouth. Success rate is about 20%. But it’s amazing to see her become more independent and try new things!
nutella
I had knee surgery 2 years ago and this week got up to 360 lbs on the leg press — more than three times my weight! I feel invincible!
Abby
Way to go! That’s very impressive!
nutella
Thank you! I am so absurdly proud of myself and amazed at what the human body (and mind!) can do! And I won’t lie — it was really fun to see some of the ‘gym bros’ and other trainers all shocked because I’m petite and pretty quiet at the gym (i.e. don’t grunt, haha) :D
Abby
grunters at the gym are the WORST. Especially when they do it for every. single. rep. I don’t think you should be doing 10 reps at that weight if you start grunting on rep 3, buddy! Big high five to you and your strong legs!
Anon
Saw Lady Gaga last night….great show!!! She is one badass chick!! Girl Power!
Housecounsel
My oldest arrives home from college on Mother’s Day! Best present ever!
anne-on
My husband voluntarily ran to the garden center this morning (and he hates gardening). He grabbed my plants/mulch/etc. because he knew I’ve got a lot of other errands tomorrow but I really wanted to get my plants in the ground before it pours on Sunday.
Anonymous
A dear friend of mine surprised me this morning by sending me a Starbucks e-card. It’s such a little thing but the note was so sweet and it is much appreciated.
anon
The Royal Baby and my dog have the same name and since Harry and Megan apparently declined a title for their kiddo I’ve decided my dog gets to have it. My office has taken to this with gusto and people have been coming in all week to ask me how His Royal Highness, Archie, the Earl of Dumbarton is doing.
Vicky Austin
Hahaha!
azcpa
For five years, I have had a singular goal – grow enough strawberries in my garden to bring them in the house (with 3 plants, I usually get one at a time, so I eat it off the vine while working out there). This morning, there were eight! I put them in a tiny bowl and proudly served them for breakfast.
Anonymous
Aww… I love this. I’m proud for you!
pugsnbourbon
I feel better already. Thanks everyone!
Anon
My secretary saw a banded peacock butterfly frantically flitting around Canal Street (in New Orleans, probably one of our busiest streets) and picked it up and walked it all the way to the Insectarium to save it so that it could live the rest of its life in a “butterfly resort” instead of meeting an “untimely demise” on Canal St. She’s been calling the Insectarium to check on it, and they report that it is flying and she’s welcome to come check on it herself. For some reason I too am now very invested in what happens to the butterfly, and this has been my favorite story all week!
NOLA
That is so sweet! When I saw the words peacock and New Orleans, I assumed that you were talking about our actual peacocks in Carrollton (Mr. P and Archie). I haven’t seen Mr. P in a while. He used to hang out on my front porch.
Senior Attorney
I came home last night and my husband had dinner literally on the table, with wine already poured, and was sitting there waiting for me with a big smile on his face!
Anon
I’ve been struggling at work with being shy and not speaking up enough, and this week I got up and spoke impromptu to my entire organization of more than 500 people. It went really well and people loved what I had to say and thought I spoke well. I’m on such a high and I feel like I can really overcome this challenge. It’s awesome!
Equestrian attorney
Congrats! Fellow not-great public speaker here, and I moderated a political debate on Tuesday! I was terrified, but it went pretty well (apparently I sounded nervous for the first few minutes, then got way more confident!).
NAZ
I graduate from University tomorrow!
Senior Attorney
Congratulations!!
ATL rette
I’m really hormonal right now and all of these replies have me tearing up at my desk.
Houda
I have delivered my first pitch for a 7 figure project. I was never on a pitch, been working on it for a month now, and I got the biggest part to present. Oh and I am positioned as the project manager, which is 2 promotions away on our scale. And I.killed.it.
Rainbow Hair
IT’S FRIDAY!
My daughter has been excited beyond words about the gift she made me at school for Mother’s Day, and she finally got to give it to me at a delightful breakfast party and it was just the sweetest, most lovely thing, to see her excitement and pride. (She had been giving me hints, like “it has my hand print but I did NOT do an art project with my hand print! just a plain hand print!” and “i wanted to make my handprint green because that’s your favorite color but [teacher] said i couldn’t so I made it purple. I couldn’t make it green because I already did the stem and leaves green” and “it starts with the sound ‘fla’ ‘fla'” etc. etc.)
Anon
That is so so sweet!
Anon
Yesterday’s long post about the husband who golfs for six hours every weekend got me thinking – when you have hobbies, kids, and the desire for family time, maybe the best thing to do is to share a hobby with your spouse and just bring the kid along. In real life and on the internet, I know a lot of couples who do this, including for travel, hiking, horseback riding (there’s literally an 18-month old in a specially designed basket on a pony), snowshoeing, and fishing. Even my grandparents did this – my grandfather sailed and my grandmother became a skilled first mate with the kids in tow rather than stay home. I know couples who ski with the kid in on-slope daycare until the kid can ski too. It seems better to have everyone out there enjoying life, even though the logistics are harder with the kid, than for the man to enjoy hobbies while the woman stays home seething with resentment instead of just getting out there and doing something else and letting the work get done in the time left. Obviously this won’t apply to every couple ever, but presumably a lot of you have interests in common with your spouse. Why was there little talk of shared hobbies and doing it all together in favor of “all hobbies on hold for both of you when you have kids!!”? (honestly, hell no.) What am I missing? Of course it’s hard doing stuff with a kid, but I would guess it’s harder to replace hobbies you love with intensive kid-time.
Anon
I…don’t know where to begin with this one.
First, not everybody has the energy and strength to bring kids along during hobbies. I work 50 hours a week. I’m friggin’ exhausted.
Second, it’s great that grandma learned to sail. Did she work full time? Or was she home all week to plan for weekend sailing trips?
Third, kids are wild and unpredictable. Some kids will happy ski and travel in a horse basket. Some kids will throw tantrums, get sick or poop at inopportune times. It’s not always a matter of happy scooping up your kid and bringing them on a 8 hour fishing expedition.
Are you really trying to chide mothers for not taking their kids along complicated, expensive hobbies on top of all the other nonsense we have to deal with? Bish please. Some of us are hanging on by a thread.
Putting your hobbies on hold for your children (particularly infants and toddlers) is the least of the sacrifices you will make. (Honestly, hell yes.)
Anon
+1 to all of this. Having very young kids is a season in life. It’s not the end of the world to me to opt out of a few extra curriculars for a few years.
When the kids are older yes we will absolutely have family hobbies. But for now when getting ready to leave the house takes almost as long as the activity + making sure naps/feedings stay on schedule + exhaustion from long work week, no I’m perfectly happy “leaning out” from hobbies for a few years. Mommy needs a nap.
Equestrian attorney
I’m a little perplexed by the horseback riding comment. I’m a rider and definitely hope to get my (as of now non-existent) kids riding. But even though you can put at 18-month old on a pony, you can only do so within the specific context of a “baby-pony” lesson. If I’m putting an 18-month old on a pony, I sure as heck am not going to gallivant off on my own horse and go about my business as usual. And I probably would wait until the kid is about 3, personally. But my point is, I’m all for teaching kids to ride (or share whatever hobby you enjoy) but it’s a very different kid of enjoyment from practicing that hobby alone. Also, don’t some golf courses prohibit kids? And what if (*shudders*) kiddos really hate your hobby?
anon
Fully agree. I don’t think that putting an 18th month old into a basket on pony counts as actually engaging in your horseback riding hobby. Even if you did this once in a while, you wouldn’t want to do this on a weekly or even regular basis.
I note that OP didn’t bother to consider the ages of hypothetical children when making this post.
Gail the Goldfish
Yep. My riding instructor has a toddler and while toddler follows everyone around the barn and will ride double at a sedate walk down from the ring with people who have totally bombproof horses, or on a leadline on her little shetland pony (which, side note, is the CUTEST combination ever), this is clearly not the same thing as an adult riding on their own.
Anon
Kids can take a crap or throw a tantrum anywhere. The risk of your kid maybe puking somewhere inconvenient that day doesn’t seem like a strong reason to stay home. Obviously it’s different for kids or parents with severe illness of some kind.
Anon
It’s a strong enough reason if you want it to be.
Anon
Do you have children? You’ve obviously never experienced the “joy” of going through all three backup outfits you brought. An outing to a friends home who has kids and all the stuff you could possibly need is still stressful so yeah not going to bring my kiddo to my outdoorsy activities.
Are you the non parent who gives new parents a hard time for being “boring”? I’ve had to cut a few of you out of my life recently.
Go for it
Never heard before …..Bish please ~ made me snort laugh ~ officially stealing!
Anon
Borrow one of your friends’ babies, take it out for 18 holes of golf, and report back.
Anon
I didn’t read the tone of OP’s post as chiding at all. I think you’re taking it a little too personally.
anon
Yeah, there’s nothing parents love more than listening to non-parents dismiss their concerns and imply that they’re not doing enough and making excuses.
Anonymous
I also did not read it as a criticism. I read the post as a legitimate question from someone inexperienced with kids, wondering why joint family hobbies weren’t suggested, wondering what she was missing about that as a solution.
Cb
We do lots of things together as a family but none of our hobbies are very adventurous – hiking, cafes, the occasional museum, all totally doable with a kid. We have friends who do more adventurous stuff and totally bring their kids along which I think is great.
Anon
Some hobbies are not just hard with a kid; they’re impossible.
Anon
Like what?
Falstaff
I’ve tried to incorporate my preschooler into my yoga hobby. It is literally impossible.
Anonymous
Seriously?
Sea kayaking in the winter in Canada (yes this is a thing), skiing black diamond runs, marathon training, swimming before your kid learns to swim independently in deep water, ice climbing, bouldering at a level beyond what kids can do. These are just the ones that DH or I do. I’m sure there are many more. From my sister’s family’s list I could add big game hunting (below a certain age) and horse jumping (again age dependent – a three year old does not jump).
Anon
But no one is saying you have to do hobbies at the same level as before. Why not ski black diamond runs while the kid is in ski school? Do a green run or two together at the end of the day and that’s some quality family time. I know a couple who just went sea kayaking in Florida (not Canada) with their under-2yo and they said it was scary at first, but ended up being amazing and worth it even though they had to slow their pace and bring more gear.
Actually, outdoorsy stuff seems a lot more forgiving in terms of bringing kids. You set your own pace, the kids can run around, you’re not going to bother others for the most part, etc. It would be harder to handle choir practice like someone else mentioned below.
anon
I’ll add some – mountain biking, going to the gym, fitness classes, serious hiking, playing any sort of team sport, adult dance lessons, reading a book, learning html, taking a class at a college, etc etc.
We take our son with us wherever we can (and we enjoy doing things as a family! And it’s getting easier now that he’s 4!), but we’ve definitely had to put some things on hold and/or give and take with each other.
Anon
10:14 – Most parents cannot afford ski school or sea kayaking.
Your grandparents sailed (assuming you’re also the OP) , so slow clap…. you’re rich and Imma guess white as hell.
Your clueless privilege is astounding.
Get some kids, pay for child care, and then we shall talk.
Anonymous
Yeah. I live in Canada so I’m not going to vacation in Florida just so I can take my kid sea kayaking. He can come lake kayaking in the summer – oldest was paddling on dad’s lap at nine months in shallow water. And yes I will put my kid in ski school when he’s old enough but kids have to be able to stand to ski and not clear why you think it’s better to put my kid in daycare at the ski hill vs. stay home with the grandparents or familiar sitter while DH and I ski for the day. Kids do not instantly learn to do green runs – that’s at least a full winter or two depending on the kid and age. 100% sure you don’t have kids or adventurous hobbies.
Anonymous
Kat — the comment from Anon at 10:31 is racist, and I request that you delete it.
Anon
Big game hunting is gross. What’s wrong with people?
Anon
Can we trust women to make this judgement for themselves?
FFS not everything is kid friendly. And even stuff that “could be” kid friendly may lose its appeal if it’s an escape. And often times hobbies involve other people and it’s not fair or reasonable to bring your kid to an otherwise adults only atmosphere. I’d be livid if someone in book club decided they wanted to bring their kid for example
Anon
+1 THIS. The tone is very — are you *really* trying hard enough? are your reasons *really* good enough? If you worked a little harder, you could do it.
pugsnbourbon
Yeah it’s like a weird bootstrapping mindset for moms.
anon
10:13 — Don’t you know? Mothers are NEVER trying hard enough! {heavy sarcasm}
rosie
Great to have this reminder that I am not doing enough with Mother’s Day coming up. I don’t want to get too full of myself reflecting on nice moments or fall into the trap of thinking that I am, you know, enough.
Anon
Like, anything that requires more than twenty seconds of your undivided attention. Drinking a cup of coffee is hard with a kid under three. Going to the bathroom. Making a quick phone call. Unless your hobby can be done in ten second bursts, it isn’t happening with a small child.
Anon
HAHA! This comment is everything!
Anon
I mean, I trust you that you’re finding that phase of life hard. You’re the parent here and I believe you that it’s taking all of your attention. I’m just confused because I DO see a lot of parents with very young kids (<3) bringing their kids along on their hobbies. It isn’t a rare occurrence or some super special kid and I know they say it’s harder with kids (no doubt about that), but they’re managing it somehow. I’m interested in learning more about how to do that because it’s what I want, but of course it’s important for you to do what you want and is best for your family too.
anne-on
Ha, so true. One of the main perks of going back to work was uninterrupted bathroom time and hot coffee!
anonymous
I think that you’re missing, Anon, is that kids probably accompany the parents *occasionally.* (Unless the hobby is going on walks or something really easy). The vast majority of the time when you see a parent doing a hobby, kid is not there. But you’re seizing on the times that you do see it and extrapolating and assuming that it’s feasible to do it all the time or at least regularly. It probably *is* a rare occurrence for that family, but you’re not tracking that family in particular. You’re just seeing people out and about and claiming its not rare.
I mean, I go to yoga a couple times a week. There are LOTS of parents in the class. I never see babies there. Once in a while, someone will bring their teen. So yes, technically, I’ve seen it. But it’s rare.
anon
But “managing it” is different from “enjoying it”. I have tried to do a bunch of different stuff with my kid, with differing levels of success, depending on the day. I’m obviously going to keep trying to do stuff, because I want to do stuff, but I know for sure that when I do my hobby by myself, I have a lot more control over whether or not I will enjoy it. So if I want to definitely get a break or relax or recharge, I’m going to do it by myself 100% of the time. If I take my kid, there is a ton of unpredictability based on the fact that she is actually a human being with wants, needs, and desires of her own. I truly did not grasp that concept until after I had a kid of my own. I thought she would be docile and have no opinions and just come along with whatever I wanted to do. Then it turns out she has a personality and opinions (which is delightful, but also makes it a challenge).
And, fwiw, if you are seeing stuff look all nice and fun and happy on social media or glimpses of real life, just know that you have only one part of the picture. I’ve always been curious about the pictures I see of people who take their kids to multiple hours long evening sporting events and post these cute photos where everyone looks So Happy. So then I actually started asking “did you have fun at this?” and the answers are really mixed. The photos look fun, but the reality of the situation is that some of it is a try it once and then never again. A lot of people stay for two innings and then go home. I also witnessed a dad lose his sh*t at a pumpkin patch a couple falls ago because the kids weren’t complying with their mom’s desire to take a pinterest perfect photo to prove how much fun they were all having. That was a really big light-bulb moment for me to remember that it’s more important to have fun than to look like you’re having fun, and you never know what’s going on behind the scenes of that Perfect Photo.
anon
+1 Social media is a press release.
SC
+1 to anon @ 11:49. I remember seeing a friend’s social media pictures with her son at a Saints game. I saw her a week or so later and asked how it went. She said it was terrible and they left after 1 quarter. They’re rich, so maybe it didn’t matter to them. But DH and I attend games and sit in the nosebleeds, and we have to give up other fun things we’d like to do in order to afford the tickets. We’d be disappointed if we had to bail, so we find childcare to attend games.
Anon
@SC I think you hit the nail on the head. Husband and I feel like we still “get” to do a lot but that’s largely because we are very fortunate to be able to “throw money away” at these types of things. We still go to events and often leave early because kiddo needs to go home. It doesn’t bother us because the cost of attendance isn’t significant to us but I wouldn’t buy tickets to something that we had to save up for knowing that kid may force us to leave in the middle. Based on OPs further comments below it sounds like she/her family are very wealthy which really changes the calculation.
Anon
This is really late but one of my main hobbies is scuba diving, which is impossible to do with young kids. I think you can’t even begin to take lessons until you’re 12, at least in most places. We can and do travel with our 3 year old and have taken her snorkeling, but even for snorkeling (which is WAY easier than scuba with a young kid), snorkeling with her doesn’t involve the adult doing any actual snorkeling. Whoever is with her is holding/assisting her 100% of the time, not snorkeling themselves. Sharing hobbies with your children can be very fun and rewarding, but it’s not the same as participating in the hobby on your own and it’s kind of absurd to suggest that it is.
Mrs. Jones
My 8-year-old can’t do a 1-1/2 hour bikram yoga class with me, besides the fact that he doesn’t want to.
Anonymous
Well for me it’s a couple things. I don’t have a lot of time to spend with my husband and kid and friends and family, and 6 hours dedicated to a hobby just takes too much time away from other things. Also, we don’t have the same hobbies- he loves golf, I ballroom dance. We both still do those things, but in moderation. And we both value spending time together- I don’t want 6 hours to myself, I want a family adventure followed by taking care of the house, a nap, and a nice dinner. My husband and I have tons of interests in common! Just not the things we consider hobbies.
Anonymous
You’re missing that one of the motivations of golfing for 6 hours is GETTING AWAY from needy little children and the repetitive drudgery of taking care of them. As soon as breakfast is over and things have been cleared and cleaned up, it’s time to think about preparing lunch. When the whole family shares a hobby like you’re proposing, there’s no getting away factor.
There’s something that comes over a lot of men once they have kids and they freak out a little by the neediness and repetitive nature of all the work. Women have this feeling too but they’re just better at sucking it up.
Anonymous
+! yep, we just suck it up better
tesyaa
That last sentence, so true.
Anonymous
The reality is you just can’t do things in the same way with kids along. DH and I are teaching our kids to ski but we do a combination of ski school for them and skiing with them because it will be years before kids can ski a double black diamond run and that’s what I love. I like hearing about DH’ about his trail running training but not interested in doing it myself. He has zero interest in yoga. I take my kids to family yoga sometimes but it’s additional to my solo yoga classes, not a replacement for it. We hike and camp together as a family but have my parents watch the kids for a weekend sometimes so we can do more adventurous stuff. Single, couple, and family recreational hobbies are all great and meet different needs, it can’t be all one or the other. Yesterday, it was clear that OP’s issue wasn’t just about golf – he was spending a lot of time away from the family working and on his weekly solo hobby – there was not a balance. There were lots of good suggestions about how to make it work such as early tee times or playing 9 holes instead of 18. Life after kids has to adapt but the answer isn’t taking the kids along for everything. Parents need their own individual time too.
Anon
But that’s what I mean – if you share a hobby as a family, even if it’s a lesser level than pre-kid, you get family time and hobby time all in one. I’m not saying it works for every couple every weekend, and of course some people just have different interests, but even going for a long walk around the neighborhood together in lieu of a run is something.
Anonymous
But you’re still missing the point that it’s additional too not a replacement for. A fast paced trail run ora bikram yoga class is totally different from a walk around the neighborhood with the kids or a family yoga class. They are just different things.
anon
Honest question: Are you a parent? Because I don’t want to play that card, but you sound pretty naive and clueless about the feasibility of this plan.
Monday
As another non-parent, I agree that this sounds totally unrealistic. All the right points have been made in the thread: 1) no, adult hobbies and kids don’t really mix, 2) part of the entire point of hobbies is to not be parenting at the same time, 3) it totally defeats the purpose for mom if she ends up doing all the childcare on a “shared” outing while dad has all the fun. We all see that happening sometimes. I’ll add a fourth, which is that “a walk together” instead of a run sounds utterly horrible to me as a compromise–even for a month, let alone several years. I feel tense even thinking about it. This is a primary reason that some people choose not to have kids, and I think if there was less denial about the sacrifices involved, there wouldn’t be as much doubt cast on that choice.
pugsnbourbon
Monday, to your #3 – my wife and I were out on long walk a few weeks ago and crossed paths with a group a joggers – three men and a woman. The woman was pushing a jogging stroller. We crossed paths again much later – she was still pushing the jogging stroller. I can’t know for sure, but I’d bet money that it never crossed those dudes’ minds that they, too, were capable of pushing that stroller.
anon
Ehhhh walking is not at all the same thing as going running. The problem with your theory is that adding kids to hobbies and adding hobbies to kid time reduces the pleasure in both. Simplifying, but the hobby is less fun and rejuvenating because obviously, and you’re not even as focused on your family time because you’re trying to get said hobby done. I’m sure most people have thought of doing something as simple as going for a walk as a family, but if you have a fairly serious hobby like the Infamous Golfing Husband, going for a walk instead of a run isn’t really analogous.
Vicky Austin
+1 honestly, I think you hit the nail on the head. Never half ass two things and all that.
Ms B
“Infamous Golfing Husband”.
Why do I have a suspicion that this will be come a thing on here, just like FLEECE TIGHTS?
Anonymous
I am super duper late to this thread but I just have to say that DH and I went for a walk around the neighborhood with our 2, 4 and 6 year olds earlier this week. Between keeping them moving, keeping them from taking all the river rocks from someone’s landscaping, and listening to them bicker with each other, it was _+#(@) exhausting. When we forget how annoying it was in a few weeks we’ll probably try again, but this is not a hobby.
Anonymous
My husband has a hobby he loves (rec softball league). Before we got together, he played ALL the time. He played most evenings a week and as much as he could on the weekends. There were always games to pick up even if it was with a different team. When we got married, he slowed down to one weeknight and one weekend day. I didn’t mind that arrangement before we had kids. Once we had kids, he finally slowed down to Sunday evenings. If the weather was nice I would take the kids and we would watch the games. This was actually really exhausting for me, because while the older two would mostly sit and watch or play in the dirt with the other kids, my youngest wanted to run around like a crazy child the entire game, so I spent all of it chasing her. I eventually told him I didn’t want to do that anymore. He plays one or two games now, which I still don’t love because he is gone, but I know he likes it so I try and be supportive. He also will always make sure I can get out on a run when I want and for a girl’s night as often as I want (which due to schedules is like once a month.)
Anonymous
You obviously don’t have kids.
Anonymous
This. And based on some of the replies, I’m not convinced it isn’t a tr0ll. I have enough family members who ride that I’m skeptical of the whole ‘custom horse basket’ for the baby as a thing.
emeralds
Can confirm that I grew up riding and don’t remember ever having seen that (also it sounds really dangerous outside of an extremely controlled setting???). When I was little-little, like under four, my dad would hold me on the front of his saddle so we could “go on a trail ride together.” But that was very different from the riding he’d do on his own–we would take, at most, a gentle 20-minute walk on a calm horse around a flat field.
Anon
The OP points out the Instagram account with the pony below. I have to say, it’s pretty cute (and it looks like it’s a frequent thing?)
anon
Fine OP. If the entirety of your horse hobby consists of leading extremely slow pony rides or going on short, easy trail rides on dead broke horses, then sure. You can bring your kid. (PS- instagram is not reality.)
anonymous
It looks like that woman lives in the English country side and owns her own fox hunting outfit. This is not the situation for your average American woman who works her 50 hr/week job, has kids, lives in the city/burbs, and tries to squeeze in a few morning rides at the barn a couple times/week on her leased horse.
anon
First of all, being around your kid 24/7 is not relaxing, at least for me. Part of the point of a hobby is getting to relax and enjoy yourself. Having some time where I don’t have to be “on” and focused on my child is why I have hobbies in the first place.
That said, even if I wanted to bring my kid to our hobbies, most of my and my husband’s hobbies are things that take place at night, after the kid’s bedtime. I sing in my church choir, and rehearsal starts 15 minutes before her bedtime. I couldn’t bring her along unless I wanted to be constantly removing a whining overtired child from an adult rehearsal. Husband is tone deaf, so he couldn’t participate even if he wanted to. Husband likes to play magic the gathering, which takes place at a comic book store, and starts after kid’s bedtime. I’ve tried to learn the rules, but I have zero interest in it, and even less interest in hanging out with a bunch of dudes I don’t know to do something I’m not interested in. And I would absolutely not take my kid to this.
Our main hobby we did together prior to having a kid was going to antique stores, which are boring for kids, not to mention filled with small, breakable, expensive stuff. Taking kid to one would be a nightmare of me and DH chasing her around, barking at her to not touch anything, while she complained about being bored.
Something I didn’t realize before having a kid was that schedules are key. I thought “I’m going to have a flexible kid!”, but I don’t think it’s that easy to have a flexible kid if your kid goes to daycare. They get used to eating and napping at specific times during the day, and unless you want them to turn into a shrieking harpy, it’s for everyone’s good to keep them on schedule, which makes it harder to bring them along to any time-consuming hobbies when they’re little. This becomes less of an issue once they get older, of course, but then there’s school schedules and extracurriculars to contend with.
That said, I am looking forward to us all being able to travel together. We’re starting international travel once our kid turns 5. I wanted her to be able to remember the places we go. But this is not really something we can do all the time.
Anonymous
“I don’t think it’s that easy to have a flexible kid if your kid goes to daycare. They get used to eating and napping at specific times during the day…”
More than that, our nationally-recognized, very good, very expensive daycare more or less insisted that if you were going to have your kid at their place, you needed to keep them on schedule even on weekends and holidays, so that they didn’t have total chaos with 12 toddlers readjusting to the class schedule after Christmas break or a long weekend.
We tried the whole “oh, let’s keep living our lives and drag our son along! He’ll learn to be flexible!” thing when our son was little. He was not a child that adapted to that philosophy. At all. We were all happier, healthier and saner when he ate at the same times, napped at the same times, and had a consistent bedtime. Was it always fun for us? No, it was not. But here’s the good news! That period of time (I am going to say birth to maybe 6 or 7?) feels long, but in reality it is just one season of life, as someone has said, and it ends. Now our son is a teenager and he sleeps in, goes to PG-13 movies with us (we still evaluate for content, of course) and participates in our hobbies with us. Or he doesn’t and it’s okay because he can be by himself for periods of time. Life is long but early-childhood parenting is short, people! It’s not the end of the world for a person to lean out of a hobby for a few years. If someone is not prepared to do this, or thinks it is the biggest imposition ever and an insult to their basic human rights to have to give up something they want to do, they should not have children. Parenthood requires adjustment of lifestyle and yes, dare I say it – some level of sacrifice.
anon
Same here. I also had the idea that if we were just flexible enough, we’d have a flexible kid. HAHAHAHA, nope. Our son was a complete disaster when he was out of routine. Even at age 9, he is not a naturally flexible kid. But we took so much crap from older relatives about how rigid we were, and it was so hurtful and not helpful at all. Our second child? A totally different story. She *IS* more flexible, and I promise that we haven’t raised her all that differently from her brother to make her that way.
Participating in family hobbies is so much more possible with older kids than with tiny ones. And I completely agree that if you’re not prepared to make sacrifices for a few years, you probably shouldn’t have kids.
Anon
Very well said.
Senior Attorney
HAHA, right? We were all “oh, we’re just going to pack up the baby and keep going to all the places we went before!”
Uh, no. Baby was having none of it.
Anonymous
You can’t bring an 8-month-old and a 3-year-old golfing, if we want to talk about the specific example from yesterday. Lots of courses have rules about how old a kid has to be before they can be on the course with an adult. Some courses are no kids, period. So there’s that.
Secondly, bro-dad from the post yesterday would have to agree “yes, I will do my hobby with my wife and kids along with me in tow.” I don’t know for sure but I don’t think that was really an option for her to even propose. It sounded to me (and the OP can correct me if I’m wrong) that the whole point of the absorption into golf was so that he had time away from kids and responsibilities? So “let’s all go” in this case won’t work. Especially if bro-dad is golfing with his buddies. There’s no way he’s going to be like “sure, let me bring the kids with me! I’ll put one in a back carrier and the three-year-old can ride in the golf cart.”
Now – when the kids get older, like around 9 or 10, they absolutely can go along with Dad to the course BUT teaching kids to golf is a different endeavor than going out on the course on your own or with golfers of your same skill level. Serious players can’t play seriously with kids along who are just learning. My dad takes my son with him to golf but he wouldn’t do that all the time. He likes to golf with my son, he likes to golf with his friends and he likes to golf by himself if he’s working on some aspect of his game. I think maybe you don’t understand the hobby of golf as it is practiced by actual players – it is not like horseback riding or hiking. At all.
I think it would be great if the OP from yesterday and her husband could find something the family could do all together, but the husband has to be on board with that. My 2 cents, this is a case where the OP is training her husband how to treat her and things will not change unless she insists that they change. I love the “playing doubles” analogy from yesterday. Marriage should not be about one person vs. the other person and who gets this and who gets that, which seems like the dynamic the OP is in.
anon
Well, unless she’s talking about pony rides or maybe easy, safe trail rides on dead broke horses, horseback riding as done by real riders is not kid suitable at all. Unless your child is training to become a competent rider on her own horse.
AlexisFaye
I’m backing OP on this one.
I’m not judging people who think that the first few years need to be child-centric, but I don’t think those folks should judge this comment. She’s certainly not implying others are wrong or bad, just saying it could be different. There are a few hobbies–SCUBA, horses, skiing–that I don’t see this working with, but you don’t have to lead a child-centric life. Short of disabilities on the kids part, or illnesses, just toss them in the car and go. Or invite friends over and play your board games. Let the kids play. Self entertainment is a skill to be practiced early and often. Have a sling for a baby, have a stroller, but don’t be sucked into the perfection of a diaper bag and being prepared for every contingency. Kids learn to roll with it, you learn to roll with it. By the third kid I would stick a diaper in my back pocket, a tiny wipe thing in my other pocket, and go. Sometimes you get to be hungry and snacks aren’t prepared on your tiny, domineering schedule. You can eat off my plate, you don’t need the kids meal or grapes cut in half.
I never did baby food and was lucky enough to be able to breastfeed even though I worked full time, but living my life this way (and OP suggesting it) and recommending it to others isn’t a condemnation of the lady with the perfectly clean kid handing out snacks from her Tiffin. Granted, sometimes I had one in the sling, one on my hip, and one on my back for hiking, but living my life based on child care is not what I chose when I had kids. And that’s ok, too.
Anon
See the difference between what you and OP are proposing is different. You’re saying – you don’t have to have a “child-centric” life, which I agree with – which doesn’t mean you love your children any less but you try to adapt your child as best you can and don’t give in to unnecessary things (i.e. the cut grapes, kids all over the world eat smaller portions of their parents food and cheerios in a bag is fine for road snacks) but you acknowledge that there are some things that just can’t happen
OP is saying “just take your kids along, add them to your hobbies, it can’t be that hard” then coming back and questioning people that say “actually yes it is that hard” and is parent blaming for why they can’t suck it up and make it work.
Anon
I don’t disagree with most of this but this isn’t what the OP was saying. We don’t have kid-centric lives and generally bring kid along to things. There are still lots and lots of things we are having to give up or cut back on for a while.
You can’t bring a three year old to a golf course for example. Doesn’t matter how not kid centric you are.
Quail
I also back OP. Obviously some hobbies can’t be continued with kids the same as pre-kids. And if couples want to work out a way to continue kid-free hobbies on an equal basis (however that couple wants to define equal) is fine by me. It’s good to have community, friends, and rejuvenating activities outside of your family and spouse. (But I do not consider haircuts or eyebrow waxes a hobby; that is something I consider part of my workwear chores, like drycleaning and tailoring my clothes.)
But I think it’s a good approach to find family hobbies, too. I also think it’s important for couples to have hobbies together (my general thinking is one hobby together, one hobby apart). I think it’s good for my marriage, and now that we have kids, is part of our family identity – we hike, we camp, we ski, we play board games. Obviously maybe those hobbies aren’t your cup of tea. And toddler age kids are hard to include in lots of activities. But I think it’s not a bad idea to find new, family-friendly hobbies that you enjoy – and quite frankly, sitting around the house with kids is one of the hardest things I find about parenting. Having somewhere to go and something to do is key to making my family life work. YMMV of course.
Worry about yourself
Sharing hobbies can be nice, but it’s just not realistic all the time. My boyfriend plays Twilight Imperium, he’s made it clear I’m pretty much always welcome to come, learn the game, and play with the group but I don’t want to because I find all-day games tedious, exhausting, and intimidating to learn. He tried swing dancing with me when we first started dating and it didn’t click. I tried curling, I liked it just fine but not enough to dedicate myself to it the way he has. And we don’t have kids so it’s a non-issue, but I can’t really imagine bringing the kids along to any of these things; if I had kids that were anything like me, they’d get bored, restless, and want to go home to play with their toys. And honestly, these hobbies are great because they allow us some space in the relationship.
Also, if a couple brought their kids along on a shared hobby, they’d need to ensure that they’re both shouldering the parenting duties. It kind of defeats the point if hubby gets to enjoy the hobby to its fullest but mommy is still primarily in charge of wrangling the kids and making sure they have snacks.
I think it’s great to find stuff the whole family can do, but it’s also totally fair to find time for solo hobbies, as long as you’re not neglecting your kids or your partner.
Anon
I’m sure this is well intentioned but naive.
My husband has two hobbies. Working on old cars and being in a rock band. Neither of these would have worked with little kids along. What he had to do was curtail them quite a bit until our kids were older.
Our two kids are teens now and my husband has pretty much all the free time he wants for band, which is every Saturday for practice (5ish hours total) and fairly regular Friday night gigs, though he has to cancel occasionally for a kids’ sports thing.
And over the years he has learned to do the old car stuff with whatever found time he can come up with, an hour or two here and there, rather than devoting a whole weekend to it.
This all sounds easy in hindsight but it was the source of A LOT of friction when our kids were younger. He did not easily curtail his band participation when they were little – it took a lot of negotiation and bickering and hard feelings – but in hindsight he knows it was the right thing to do.
Anonymous
So my husband has a car hobby as well, but it’s going to car shows (he’s not handy enough to actually work on them). I feel like OP is saying, “well, Anon at 10:20, instead of your husband working on cars, maybe he now still does his cars hobby, but he goes to car shows instead and brings kids along.” (We’re not parents yet, but I’m only a few weeks away from my due date, so we’re close and these discussions got me thinking).
BUT, I don’t think that going to a car show and working on old cars are the same hobby at all. My husband could more easily (and says that he hopes to) incorporate a kid into going to a car show than working on an old car. So, that’s where I think OP misses the point. Just because it has the same general idea (let’s all go skiing!) and even if your child was a willing participant, doesn’t mean it’s the same hobby.
Anon
Ha! My husband also goes to car shows and once the kids were maybe mid-elementary school they didn’t mind going along with him, but when they went it was can I have popcorn? Can I get a hot dog? When are we leaving? And he’d be there for an hour tops. So yes, sometimes he took them but it wasn’t incorporating them into his hobby, it was a compromise and was more about an outing with the kids than really attending a car show, which is good but different.
He also goes and spends all days watching old cars race each other around a track. Our now teen kids are like yeah, dad, bye.
TheElms
I think it may be possible to involve your kids in your hobby but it depends on the kid and if you only have 1 or multiple. As an only child I participated in most of my dad’s hobbies. His hope was they would become shared hobbies. He made some alterations to how he enjoyed his hobbies but I think it was relatively short lived. He loved to golf so he took me along starting at about age 3. I imagine it was somewhat challenging when I was 3, but his recollection was I reasonably good at sitting still and watching people play golf and I was happy to color on the floor of the golf cart if I got bored. He says he started by taking me to the driving range and then only 9 holes to make sure there was some chance it wasn’t a terrible idea on his part. From about age 5 I can remember spending most of the time looking for golf balls in the woods or streams around the course. Around age 5 as well, he got me clubs and would let me hit a ball or two along the way and then he’d play my shot (which was pretty hysterical). By the time I was 8 or so I can remember accompanying him when he played in a foursome (including fairly often with strangers). In the end golf was really not for me but I tagged along reasonably often throughout my teenage years and I generally still go with him for a round when I visit.
He also started taking me skiing when I was 5, I’d go to ski school and he’d ski and then after the first year we skied together in the afternoons. I was probably only 7 (so 1-2 years after I started learning) when I did my first black diamond with him, in a pie wedge the whole way down. He made me go ahead on my own and when I got to the bottom of a section he’d come down behind me at full speed. So yes, it definitely took longer and he couldn’t ski the whole thing in one go like he would if I weren’t there, but he still did get to ski what he wanted to ski and we did it together. (I suppose it helped that he has no interest in off-piste skiing because I can see how that wouldn’t have been appropriate when I was 7). It did lead to many years of skiing together which never would have happened if he hadn’t taken me along from a young age.
He also played soccer and I went to his practices and games, just like he came to mine. Again I think a lot of coloring books might have been involved and ice cream for good behavior in the beginning.
Obviously its easier with only 1 kid, and it depends on the kid. But I think its probably doable if its important to you. I see the alterations my dad made to his enjoyment of the activities but they seem relatively short lived and did lay the foundation for shared hobbies as an older child/teenager/adult. Conversely, my mom made no such effort and we have no shared hobbies and spent a lot less time together.
Anonymous
Only child life is totally different than multiple kids. If you have more than one kid, when the oldest is old enough to start to ski, the youngest is not. Doesn’t mean that the oldest can’t learn to ski but it does mean that everyone can’t go as a family because the youngest will be in childcare while parents are on the slopes. Assuming kids are 2-3 years apart, it is ten years between the pregnancy with the oldest kid when mom can’t ski and when the youngest kid can reasonably ski with adults around age 7. Those are the hard years that a lot of people are talkiing about. You are giving examples of ages 7 plus. Those are the easy years once you hit elementary schoo age. And you have to be prepared to accept that your kid may not share your interests. We have three kids. Two LOVE to ski and the middle kid hates it as well as snowboarding. We have to adapt to that. Doesn’t mean we don’t ski but it does mean I had to let go of my ideas about what family ski vacations would look like with all of us zipping down the slopes together. I encourage you to spend less time worrying about what others are doing on Insta and more time enjoying hobbies now because life changes after kids, including in ways you cannot plan for.
asdf
In theory I love this. In practice, it works for some hobbies and not for others. I love playing board games, but realistically when I’m hosting or a guest I need to keep at least half an eye on my toddler at all times. This means that complicated games which require complete attention are out for the short term. Fortunately, we have game loving friends who also have toddlers and we’re playing less involved games now. If friends weren’t in the same situation I think they’d be less likely to give up move involved games to accommodate young children. My spouse loves to build things in the basement (seriously, he has a mill down there). It’s just not safe for him to watch our kid while working on power equipment. Truthfully, the example you gave rubs me the wrong way. You know what the situation actually was, but to me it sounds like your grandmother sacrificed her interests in service of the joint goal of allowing her spouse to maintain his interests while preserving family time.
TheElms
Just to clarify, to the extent my mom had hobbies (mostly she worked, but she did sew occasionally) she didn’t involve me.
SC
Whether you include children in your hobby or not, I think some solo/down time is important for all adults, including parents.
If you do include children in your hobby, I think you’re going to get a very different experience than when you pursue it solo. They may both be enjoyable, but I can’t imagine being fulfilled by only pursuing my hobby with my young child. I like to read. I love reading with my child and read with him everyday. It doesn’t take the place of reading my own novels. My BIL loves to fish. He’ll sometimes get the boat ready on a Friday afternoon and take his wife and kids around the lake, but it doesn’t replace 6 hours of silent fishing on a weekend morning. (He’s the primary caretaker all week and fishes 4am-10am, and not every week, so no issues with neglecting his family.)
Also, you don’t always get the family/kids you imagine. It’s amazing how kids have a mind of their own and don’t automatically like what their parents like. Also, many families (including mine) have kids with different abilities or special needs, which makes it difficult or impossible to include them in the parent’s hobbies. When we have family time, we have a few places we know work well for our kid. Going somewhere new requires a lot of research to determine if it’ll work and a lot of planning so we can have a positive experience.
anon
+1 to your third paragraph. Not all special needs are visible, either.
SC
True. My child’s special needs are not visible.
Anon
I was wondering about this. Growing up, I was just forced to go along for things I wasn’t interested in. I was expected to keep my mouth shut (no whining) and be respectful. I remember going to a lot of military air shows, blue grass bands and military museums and being bored out of my mind (and hot, and sunburned and annoyed) but appreciating that my dad was really enjoying himself.
Ideally, I think balance is key. I think its okay to force kids along and expect good behavior some of the time and do activities they prefer to do the rest of the time. I don’t think it should always be kids choice or always be parents choice.
That said, I don’t know how today’s parents do it. The days of “obey because I said so” seem to be long gone, and rightfully so since the consequence of not obeying was usually some type of corporal punishment back then. Not for me luckily though I never really tested it enough to find out.
Anon
Well I mean this sort of thing kinda for older kids but I don’t know how you tell an 8 month old and a 3 year old to keep their months shut and be respectful.
Anonymous
I think a lot of this has to do with where people live and regional culture. As a childfree adult, I’ve noticed that kids in adult spaces are no big deal in Austin or Asheville. (I guess everyone’s busy making sure all the dogs are minding their manners?) The kids seem used to going out, but adult spaces are not so quiet, fancy, or formal that a little childish misbehavior is going to ruin things for everyone. Kids seem to get along with their parents pretty well, and you get the sense they spend a lot of time together and the kids aren’t desperate for negative attention.
There are definitely also cities where the opposite of all these things seems more common.
SC
Well, I have 1 child, who just turned 4. At 4, children do not have the emotional capacity to appreciate that a parent is enjoying themselves, so it’s OK for them to be bored. My kid doesn’t even have the capacity to appreciate that a parent is unavailable to play because the parent is cooking dinner after Kiddo said he was hungry. I mean, we explain it to him, every night, so that’s just where we are.
My kid also has sensory and behavioral issues. Some things he’s great at. He behaves really well in most restaurants. He’d be bored but OK in a museum, and we like taking him to the sculpture garden and botanical garden. He cannot handle loud, stimulating environments–music festivals, concerts, sporting events, a lot of activities and events for kids, and large family events. The noise and crowds overwhelm him, and he has a “fight or flight” reaction–runs away, and when we tell him he can’t and has to hold our hand, hits, kicks, scratches, bites, and yells.
Worry about yourself
Yup. I can think of so many things my parents wanted me to like, but I just wasn’t into it, and feeling pressure to enjoy something may have actually pushed me away from it. Soccer, basketball, softball, skiing, tennis, even teaching me to throw and catch probably felt like pulling teeth for them. I’d imagine there are plenty of kids who, like my former self, are stubborn, willful little things who will either kick up a fuss any time you make them do anything (forced fun is an all-ages concept, y’all), have a meltdown after feeling frustrated when things just aren’t clicking, or will go with the flow but hate every minute of it, and resent you for forcing it on them later.
Again, shared hobbies are a nice idea – I don’t think the concept is foreign to any of us though, so bringing it up as though none of us had ever considered it is a bit insulting, and it’s also incredibly naive and idealistic to think it’ll solve everyone’s hobby/family balance issue.
Anon in da H
Have you ever thought maybe, just maybe, that some of us have no interest in our spouse’s hobbies and to force us to go along to let him have fun is almost as much torture as being home alone with the kids and little support?
Just not, a hobby is just that, a hobby, which means it can be as light or intense as you want it to be, you can spend as much or as little time on it as you want, and it shouldn’t impact the necessities or obligations of your life (WIFE, KIDS, HELLOOOO!)
Anon
The discussion about golf kind of made me laugh because while I am single, my dad is an obsessive golfer and spends every weekend at the course all summer, and often Thursday and Friday nights too. He is basically gone all summer. But I’m an adult and obviously out of the house, and he didn’t start golfing until I was a teenager. No way in h&ll would my mom have let him get away with it when we were little! Now she is content to pursue her own hobbies while he golfs.
anon
My family had a family hobby of sailing growing up. My parents both liked it independently and my siblings and I were all exposed to it starting the first summer of our lives (so, at some age under 12 months). We did a lot of day sails as well as some local overnight trips throughout my childhood, and as adults we all still sail and are quite good. It was definitely not easy for my parents, but it was a way that we could all be together and do something besides the errands/work crush and is now a passion that we can continue to share with each other. We also did a lot of backpacking and hiking, though I think of that less as an ongoing hobby than as specific trips but I suppose it is similar. My parents both worked full time fwiw. I hope my husband and I can do something like this when we have kids, though again acknowledge its hard.
Anon
OP here, longtime reader, non-troll, not trying to cause offense. I’m genuinely interested in this subject because I don’t have kids yet and I’m deeply considering what kind of life I want our family to have. I was surprised by yesterday’s post because the consensus seemed to be that hobbies are extremely hard if not impossible and that’s incongruous with the lives of other parents I know. I just want more perspectives and to figure out how best to incorporate kids into my life while still being myself. No offense was intended and it’s been interesting reading the responses. I have to agree that part of the appeal of hobbies is time away from the kid, but I also like the idea of taking my baby on a hike or to the museum and just making it work like I see my friends doing. I hope that it works out for my husband and me because he wants the same thing.
P.S. Check out the Callie Coles instagram for the baby in a basket on a pony.
anon
And I still maintain that you’re seeing a very small slice of reality. Also: Instagram is a highlight reel.
Anon
Sure, but it doesn’t mean it’s a lie either. I’m sure this mother isn’t showing the tantrums and the accidents and so on, but she is also getting out there and introducing her kids to her hobby gradually and finding ways to make it work. Seems a lot better than sitting home with the kids where they’re STILL going to be a handful.
Anon
Ooo I have lots of parent friends who had similar mindsets pre-kids and they are the ones who seem to have the roughest adjustments.
Hard disagree on going somewhere and getting a picture perfect moment combined with a melt down is better than staying home. Melt downs are a lot less likely to happen at home where you can keep to a schedule, kiddo has all their stuff, etc.
It’s not a permanent thing to have to step back or shift. But it’s a thing that happens. And I personally wish more parents were up front about it. I think one of the hardest parts of being a parent is that it seems like everyone else finds it so much easier or is making it work and you can’t.
Having low expectations going into parenting has made parenting much more joyful for me personally. I’m not devastated when the baby’s shifted nap kills plans, and I’m pleasantly surprised and delighted when friends agree to come over and hang with us for dinner/drinks where blowouts, random naps and needing food don’t ruin the whole get together.
Anon
Yeah but the home (1) is babyproofed (2) has toys they can play with so they’re not chorusing “I’m booored” (3) has a bathroom that my 3yo can use with no assistance (step stool for sink etc.) (4) has snacks, water, milk etc. easily available. So watching the kids at my home requires way less effort from me (I can combine it with my favorite hobby, reading, for short stretches) than watching them elsewhere during one of my other hobbies (dance or yoga).
anon
Ok, can confirm that the baby basket on a pony exists. Can also state that these people are clearly serious horse people and I really don’t think this is a realistic option for most riders, nor do I think that baby-in-a-horse-basket counts as engaging in your riding hobby. I can’t imagine sticking my toddler child in a horse basket for anything more than a photo shoot or hand-led walk.
More to your point, OP, I think what is most important is to consider what constitutes a hobby and how immersed in that hobby you want to be. The post yesterday involved an expensive, time-consuming, immersive, adult-only hobby. Museums and hikes are much easier to do with kids. These don’t even have to be “hobbies,” they’re just… activities to do with kids. Don’t over complicate it.
Anon
But if you’re serious about a hobby, why can’t you find a way to make it work for your family? If you’re not serious about something like that, this conversation isn’t for you, but if you are, there are clearly people out there who might be an inspiration and a counterpoint to yesterday’s “it’s impossible!” consensus. It seems like everyone is really, really digging in on it being impossible – I guess it’s defensiveness, but I don’t think anyone is trying to judge anyone else here. Clearly the conversation is meant for people with hobbies and kids who are interested in balancing the two and it’s okay that that doesn’t apply to everyone.
Worry about yourself
I don’t think we’re being defensive, I think we’re being realistic, and I think your thoughts are coming from a good place but you sound really naive and idealistic, we’re trying to set your expectations, otherwise you’ll be the ambitious parent who keeps trying to plan outings that end up going sideways, getting upset and tearfully shouting “I JUST WANTED TO DO THIS AS A FAMILY! I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE FUN!”
There are hobbies where you can, possibly, include the family, and including the family might multiply the fun, but even if that’s possible, it might not be what people want to do. You can love your partner and love your kids and still need a break, and having a solo hobby gives you that break. Then there are hobbies that are really just for adults, and the kids would be bored at best if you dragged them along.
anon
Ugh. Now I’m starting to feel like you’re just being obtuse. No one’s being defensive– in fact, everyone has been very reasonable and patient with you–you’re just choosing not to hear what people are saying. You seem to be incapable of assimilating any of the things people are telling you. I keep coming back to riding because it is something I do, but people who are serious about riding are riding at a level that it is physically impossible to incorporate a small child into–even if they are amateurs. This isn’t difficult to understand. You can’t plop a toddler into a basket on your horse’s back and train for a hunter jumper competition. Child protective services will come get you. That instagram account you linked to features people who are clearly professionals (or semi) teaching young children how to ride themselves. That’s a commitment to riding that even most people who do it seriously as a hobby can’t make (and it assumes the kid wants to do it). And again, sticking a baby in a basket on a pony is not the same thing as riding a horse yourself. People have told you- you can’t take babies and young kids to golf courses. You can’t take a kid to yoga. There aren’t ways to “just make it work” for some hobbies especially when your solution is to, as you put it with so much nuance, “just bring the kid along.”
Anon
What hobby specifically is it you want to involve your kids in, OP? Sailing seems like an outlier than might actually be doable, if that’s what you have in mind.
Anon
I don’t think people are being defensive. Just realistic. No offense but you don’t have kids yet so you have no way of knowing how this will play out. Also just because you have friends that make this work (in your eyes, note that you don’t have the full picture) doesn’t mean that it will work for you. Kids are all different and you don’t know how your kids will be until you have them. And that’s not even accounting for things like disabilities. Take it from a mom who spent the first three months of motherhood in a NICU: things don’t go the way you plan. I think the commenters here are doing you and others a HUGE favor by being honest about the difficulties of parenthood.
anon
I don’t think that anyone is saying it’s not possible to balance hobbies and kids. It’s completely possible. It seems like lots of people on this thread have both kids and hobbies
I think what people are saying is that forcing your child to participate in your hobby makes it not as fun or relaxing. And also it’s not fair if only one spouse gets to do a time intensive hobby while the other one is stuck alone with the kids for hours on end every Saturday and never gets a break. Forcing her to do his hobby doesn’t sound good or fair. If she wanted to be golfing, I’m guessing she would be already.
My husband and I both have hobbies and balance that with having a kid by taking turns doing them by ourselves and by not getting to do every single thing we want to do. It’s fine. It works. We’re both happy.
Anon
So here’s an example: I’m an amateur cyclist. A *very* good amateur cyclist who is a serious contender for a masters national championship in my given discipline. My training is extremely time-consuming (20 hours/week), which is okay right now because my SO travels a ton for work and my job isn’t that demanding. However, we hope to have kids within the next 18 months. I plan to introduce my kids to cycling, but the bike riding I’ll be able to do with them will be something completely different than what I do now. You don’t take a toddler in a trailer on an 8-hour training ride or put a baby in a baby seat when you’re going to do 1-minute vomit-inducing hill repeats.
My hobby as I currently practice it cannot be enjoyed with a child in tow. It just can’t. And what I can enjoy with them will be related (and fun! I’m looking forward to entering a new season of my life!), but it will essentially be an entirely different activity. That’s what people are trying to explain.
Anon
Love all the puppies and hounds on her instagram!
Anon
Anon at 12:48, that’s offensive and not based in the reality of my post. Are you really suggesting that mothers who pursue hobbies are setting their kids up for drug use? That’s just so blatantly false and messed up. There is a huge difference between neglectful or abusive parenting that sets kids up for failure and parenting that (gasp!) acknowledges the mother as an independent person too.
I personally know many parents who have maintained their hobbies (not at the same level, but as I’ve repeatedly said today, I never claimed that was the goal) and they’re wonderful, involved, happy parents with their own interests and personalities. Personally, I think their lives look balanced and their children look independent and well-adjusted. Maybe you think it sets kids up for misery, but I think devoting 100% of your free time to your children sets them up to be helpless, needy adults (and speaking of drugs, why don’t we look at the astronomical increase in kids taking anti-anxiety medication and calling their parents nightly from college?). To each their own.
Anonymous
Oh, you’re cute. Good luck! As everyone’s said, there’s a significant difference between occasionally including your very small children in an activity you enjoy at a lower intensity level, and imagining you can toss them in a back carrier for 18 holes of golf.
Worry about yourself
I think hiking with a baby strapped to you, or plopping the little angel in stroller for a day at the art museum sound like wonderful ideas in theory, but you gotta be prepared for the crying, and the pooping, and just because your friends seem to have an easy time of it doesn’t mean you will. Every kid is different.
Anonymous
Thanks for confirming you don’t have kids, I think we had all figured that out, but confirmation is nice.
I say this from a place of best intentions: if you feel you absolutely cannot give up your current level of involvement in your hobbies when you have children, please don’t have children. My son is 13 and we are now seeing in his friends and classmates the results of what happens when parents don’t put their children’s needs ahead of their own interests. There are kids his age, at his school, who are already on drugs. People who can’t at least balance their childrens’ needs with their own really need to not be parents. They should just get a dog, or something.
Small Firm IP Litigator
If it helps, my husband and I decided not to have kids in part for financial reasons, but also because we are both very sure that raising kids in today’s world would make us both miserable. Not only do we want to be not miserable, but we also feel like we wouldn’t be good parents because of it and would grow to resent our children, which is completely unfair to them. Part of that misery would be having to give up or at least severely curtail our passions, which are our hobbies/fitness pursuits and not really our jobs.
SC
I hate sitting around at home all weekend more than anything. I’m also not a huge fan of just playing with my kid. (Unstructured play is important for kids. My limit for how much I can be involved in that is pretty low.) We’ve learned places where we can have family outings. We take our kid to swim lessons and to the pool associated with our gym. We can go on “hikes” and have a great time–I remember an amazing hike when Kiddo was 2 and we used trail markers to talk about shapes, colors, and numbers. We walk around the neighborhood. We like the sculpture garden and botanical garden. We explore public transportation (street cars, ferries) because vehicles are my kid’s favorite thing. I love taking my kid to the library. We bring him to restaurants and on errands and to our friends’ houses.
Those are activities with kids, and they’re enjoyable. They don’t replace hobbies or personal time. I read, and taking Kiddo to the library or reading to him isn’t the same. I want to introduce him to books and hope that one day he enjoys reading and will want to read on his own and tell me about what he’s reading. DH plays video games, and he’s looking forward to being able to play with Kiddo later, but we don’t do that much or that kind of screen time right now. I’m sure there are equivalents with every hobby–a toddler in a basket on a pony isn’t the same as jumping, a walk in the neighborhood isn’t training for a race, and 30 minutes on the bunny slopes isn’t a black diamond. You do stuff early because it’s a family activity, and you hope your kid enjoys it when they’re older and more independent.
Also, you can foster interest, but you can’t control who your kid is. DH and I are both passionate Saints fans, and so is everyone else in our extended family. My 4-year-old has probably seen every Saints game since he was born, in the sense that the TV was on and people were yelling at it. He can tell you everything you’d want to know about trains and construction equipment and fire trucks, but he doesn’t care about football. Maybe something will change, but we may just end up with the one kid in New Orleans who doesn’t care about the Saints. He’ll have to deal with the TV being on anyways, but we won’t make him actively participate.
Bon
Um no. 1) I need time away from the kids; I’m a better mother when my stress is lower, and 2) if I’m going to pay for expensive extracurricular, I want to be able to enjoy the activity, not change diapers and tell my preschooler to stop climbing everything.
Skipper
My husband and I are child-free, and we don’t even introduce one another to our hobbies. We love each a lot! We have a great relationship! But there is a 0% chance I’m going to take up tennis just to see my husband on Tuesdays. For one, my plastic surgeon doesn’t want me doing any activity where balls fly at my nose.
I think that it’s important to find activities to do with both your partner and with your kids. But those don’t have to be your already existing hobbies. You can be the family that takes a walk on a Sunday afternoon or the family with a weekly movie night or the family that cooks international foods on Thursdays or has an age-appropriate book club. Successful joint activities need to involve the interests and inclinations of the people involved and probably change with the age and changing interests of the kids involved.
I’m not saying a whole family can’t be keen sailors. It’s worth a try! But in my experience the whole “let’s all learn to sail” model involves far more “I am the boss of this family, and you are the skipper” than I’m comfortable with in the modern family.
Anon
There goes your social life ;)
asdf
+1 Grandma was the first mate – never the captain.
Anon
I’m the OP and it was true – my grandfather had a lifetime of experience before they met, it was the 50s/60s so there were definitely some gender roles at play, and my grandmother never sailed without him (unless it was with other friends). That being said, she loved it so much she wrote a book about it. It defined their lives as a couple and it worked for them and their kids, only one of whom still sails, but all of whom have great hobbies. I don’t apologize for admiring them.
Anonymous
See comment above about: white AF, privileged AF and don’t realize it. The more you post the more those concepts get reinforced as truth.
At this point, you’re coming off as not just tone-deaf but princessy and obtuse. Maybe quit rather than continuing to dig the hole, just a suggestion.
Rainbow Hair
I think I fall somewhere between the OP and the “what?!?! no!!!” comments. Here’s how our hobbies go…
I love to make art. If I go into making art with my kid thinking I’ll get to do anything that’s *mine* — even when it’s like, “OK we will share these watercolors and I’ll do mine on my paper and you’ll do yours on your paper” — it’s a nonstarter. Conveniently, I also love to teach/facilitate art. So when the thing I’m hoping to enjoy is “helping Kiddo have fun making something”… well then I’ll enjoy myself. And then I go back into the garage and do my own stuff once she’s in bed.
I like to sew. If my fabric is cut and I’m doing something simple, I invite her into the garage with me. She has dyed rice she can scoop and pour and play with, or I’ll set her up with markers, and sometimes I’ll stop and explain what I’m doing. It’s about 10% of the fun it is to sew by myself, but it’s together-time, which is nice.
Husband likes to run on mountains (I don’t get it at all). Sometimes “the whole family will go” which means that Kiddo and I walk for 5 minutes until we get to the first stream/puddle and then we throw rocks in it and poke the mud with sticks and generally wander around and look at stuff, and Husband runs for 45 minutes and we meet back in the parking lot. Sometimes if I’m not around to watch her, he takes Kiddo in this fancy running stroller thing, and then instead of doing whatever the physical fitness goal is he’s doing, he’s pushing an extra 40lbs but also frequently stopping to look at butterflies and let a plastic pony explore the flowers. He prefers it to not getting to go on his run that day, but it’s not the same as the thing he really likes to do.
We like to check out breweries and a nice date night would be some beers and food from a food truck. We regularly take Kiddo with us, and it’s “fun” but completely different than when it’s a date. One of us has only one beer. As soon as we get there we strategize: I’ll get in line for the food and you can text me your order from the beer line. Someone should grab the board game and I’ll get Kiddo set up with markers to color. Like the sewing, it’s about 10% of the enjoyment of the thing without her there (we barely get to talk to one another, it’s certainly not down time) but it’s a different beast that’s also fun.
Anon
Thanks, Rainbow Hair. This is actually an interesting and useful contribution.
Anon
Yikes, the mommy martyrs are out in strong force today.
anon
Ha! There she is! I’m so glad our Anon commentor has come out of the woodwork to try to make other people feel bad. What a valuable contribution to the discussion. FWIW, I’ve responded to OP a number of times and don’t have kids.
Anonymous
The child-free clueless folks who like to judge and sermonize are having their day too, from what I can see.
anonymous
Y’all make me miss Ellen.
Anon
I don’t really see any mommy martyrs here. My husband and I still have a very active social life that we involve kid in and pursue our own hobbies, etc. I don’t feel like we are making OMG sacrifices but at the same time the ignorance of OP and others on this thread is both frustrating and hilarious. The OP sounds like the guys in The NY Times article from a few days back about the men who expect their lives won’t change at all post kids. No one is saying you never get to go to enjoy nonkid stuff once you have kids, just that it may not be as frequent and will look different.
Anon
Go apologize to your mother. She gave up a lot for you, and yet you’re still a brat.
anon
*slow clap*
This whole thread is depressing as he!!. The expectations put on moms (yes, that’s right — moms) are getting more out of hand all the time.
Kart
Few people are addressing this throwaway comment: “letting the work get done in the time left”. Sorry, when is that supposed to be, exactly?
This “just take them along!” view is really just extremely silly. Even taking something that in theory is very kid-friendly: jogging with a kid in a baby stroller. Well, sometimes your kid won’t want to be in the stroller. They are bored/hot/uncomfortable, so then they start crying. Yes, in theory, they’re restrained and at a certain age you can just ignore their crying and keep on jogging. But that would be miserable for you and cruel to the kid. And if you have more than one, even if they’re close enough in age that they both fit in the stroller, they’re likely to be fighting, and you have to pause and break up the fight, or again, just let them pummel each other and scream, which is not great parenting. And that’s an example of a hobby that in theory is easy to “just bring the kid” to.
OP, I’d venture to say that what you’ve seen examples of is parents getting out and doing fun activities with their children (rather than parents engaging in their own hobbies and just “bringing the kid along”). That is awesome if your kids are amenable to it. What you’re not actually seeing is parents engaging in *their own adult hobbies* and just “bringing the kids along.” They may do activities with their children that are *related* to their own hobbies, but they’re not the same. That may be the disconnect between you and many of the responses you are getting. Doing an activity (or “hobby”, if you must) with kids is not as simple as just bringing them along on an adult hobby. It’s a completely different activity. It may be lovely, and fun, but they’re not the same.
anon
On the other hand, maybe OP is a diabolical genius.
Golf widow from yesterday — yes, you should insist on bringing your 8 month old and 3 yo and tagging along with your husband to make this a family hobby. Make sure you hand over the baby or toddler any time they start pitching a fit. I’m guessing that will solve the problem way faster than any argument would.
SO MUCH FAMILY FUN TO BE HAD!!!
anon
LOL it would 100% get Golfing Husband kicked out of the country club so would definitely solve the problem
Anonymous
Ha! We have finally arrived upon the solution for the Golfing Husband problem! It took two days and a lot of heated debate, but here we are.
Seventh Sister
As the title of my favorite book says, I was a really good mom before I had kids.
Anon
Favorite Drunk Elephant skincare products? Or feedback on what you didn’t like? I think I am a convert from Clinique (which never really did anything special for me) after trying a sample of Drunk Elephant’s polypeptide cream.
Pegasus
The serums and the bar soaps!
Anonymous
The vitamin C is a favorite for me. I hate vitamin c in an eye dropper, I like the delivery system and thought it was effective.
Cookbooks
I didn’t like their marula facial oil. It didn’t absorb well and just sat on my skin. But I did really like their lip balm! That worked quickly, and I liked that it was wider than most lip balms.
nutella
The Marula Oil is my favorite! I am probably on my fourth bottle and as a skincare junkie, I only re-buy something if I loooove it! I did not like the TLC Babyfacial, though, which I know other people love. Different strokes, I guess!
Anon
I didn’t like the vitamin C (noticed zero difference) but I did like the baby facial. It’s not for every day but it is very effective.
I also liked their tinted physical sunscreen but the tint color is unfortunately not right for me (I’m so pale that the whitish cast of zinc oxide is a better match to my skin than tinted zinc oxide) but if the tint had matched me better it would have been a winner for me.
Anon
The marula oil. My skin LOVES it and it didn’t turn my pillowcase orange like a cheaper oil I tried. Alas, it’s out of my budget to use regularly.
Anonymous
The Ordinary has an amazing marula oil that is like 6 bucks – highly highly recommend!
Anon
That’s the one that turned my pillowcase orange!
Anonymous
I like the Vitamin C serum, but not enough to keep repurchasing it at almost triple the price of similar competitors (Timeless, Mae Love Glowmaker). The B-Hydra and Shaba eye serum are both nice. I just purchased their Babyfacial now that I’ve gone through The Ordinary’s 30% AHA/BHA peel, haven’t tried it yet. I’m generally of the opinion that their retinal and AHA serums are overpriced for what they are.
Anon
I HATED the Lala Retro. It is not light and airy, it’s greasy and thick. I ended up using it on my legs, and it worked great for that, but it’s not a face cream unless you are Sahara levels of dry. Also, the toilet-cleaner-style pump applicator sucks.
Shopaholic
Haha I love this moistuizer so much. And I love the pump! It seems so much more hygienic to me?
I love the Vitamin C serum and I tried a sample of the retinol and it didn’t freak out my sensitive skin so I bought a full size at the sale last week.
everlane shoe sizing
Does anyone have experience with everlane shoe sizing? Does it generally run true to size or something else? TIA!
BabyAssociate
Everlane shoes run very narrow, so if you don’t have narrow feet, size up.
CHL
I found that they ran quite small. Also narrow.
Anon
I asked the same question not too long ago and was told they run narrow and give blisters. That was enough to scare me off.
Anonymous
ugh thats unfortunate, their new sandals look like exactly what I want. my feet are very average size and width but I have a super high arch/instep so sizing can be awkward for me.
Anon
Same I so wanted to v slingback flats. They are basically the shoe of my dreams.
Anon
I have tried a lot of their shoes. My general Everlane size is 1/2 size up from my normal shoe size. Normally, there will be some comment to the side where they recommend sizing up or not. Like I think the Day Glove and Boot were TTS (and did not work for me) but everything else has been 1/2 size up.
My experience with their shoes has been that if something works, it is the best shoe ever for me. If it doesn’t, it is more uncomfortable than anything else I’ve ever worn. Nothing in between. But since the shoes I like, I like so much, I still keep trying their shoes. The Loafer, Loafer Mule, and V Suede Heel worked for me. Day Glove, Day Boot, and Slingbacks were terrible. I have a normal to wide foot with a narrow heel.
sfmdca
They run a little small. Also, the heels are very tight across the top of my foot, I found them too painful to wear. (And my feet are “thinner” there than average, in the sense that most shoes are too big in that area for me!)
Anonymous
I’m looking for a very basic makeup routine to look awake. I usually wear CC cream to even my skin tone. I can do makeup, but it takes me awhile. I’m thinking of adding bottom eyeliner, mascara, and blush. What do you recommend for 5 minutes, tops?
Anon
My 5 min routine: concealer, BB cream, top lid eyeliner, swipe of taupe eyeshadow, brow gel, mascara, blush. Fortunately my lips are fairly pink naturally so I don’t bother with lip products (other than chapstick) unless it’s a Big Day.
Anon
Don’t do bottom eyeliner. Do top eyeliner. Bottom eyeliner is not a current look.
I’d do cc cream, top eyeliner, mascara, a quick brow something depending on what your brows are like (either brow pencil or a brow mascara like glossier boy brow) and a quick sweep of blush – I think NARS orgasm is the easiest because it’s univerally flattering.
Anon
Also the blush will be easiest if you buy a good fluffy brush for it.
Anokha
Any brush recommendations?
Anonymous
Honestly, my ELF $2 one has survived years, doesn’t shed with wash, and applies all powder blush well.
smiley
+ 1 for ELF brushes. easily available at targ*t, good range of styles. Quality is shockingly nice – I love makeup and have some “nicer” brushes, but find that I reach for the ELF ones just as often.
Equestrian attorney
+1. I do BB cream, mascara, undereye concealer (because dark circles), quick swipe of blush and eyebrow gel. Takes 5 minutes. I have a tinted lip balm in my purse for a bit of color on my lip0s.
Anon
+1 bottom liner will not make you look awake.
Rainbow Hair
Sometimes I put a very very very pale peach liner on my bottom waterline, and that can wake my face up a little. But I would’t do dark bottom liner for a work-look, probably.
Rainbow Hair
Why did I say peach? I meant pink. Like almost white.
anon
Mascara, blush, lip gloss. All easy and fast, plus they add a touch of color and definition.
I’ve been doing makeup for a long time, but I’m still not very fast at applying eyeliner!
anon
I use a very light pink bottom liner. It’s benefit, but I can’t find it on sephora’s website. Just adds a little brightness to the eye area.
Anon
Concealer, mascara, brows, and some highligher on your eyes. The highligher is key to looking awake imo! I use it on my lids and a little on my browbone and corner of my eyes. I like the Anastasia highlighting duo pencil – matte on one end and shimmer on the other. This is my standard 5 minute routine.
anne-on
My 5 minute routine is sunblock, eyeliner (some times), eye shadow, mascara, bb cream or just concealer depending on the state of my skin, blush, and powder to set everything/minimize shine. This is my normal everyday makeup
I usually only wear foundation, stronger eyeliner, highligher, etc. when I’m having a ‘big day’ or doing a date night. I love makeup and definitely wear bolder colors/wing my eye liner/wear RED lips/etc. for date nights or big occasions.
Anonymous
The team at Bobbie Brown counters is good for this, they did a stripped down work face for me and the products are really unobtrusive. I ended up with eyeshadow in a heather color I never would chosen and good brushes.
LAnon
+1 to Bobbie Brown
My mother took me to them when I was first starting to wear makeup because she felt like they would help me pick things that looked subtle and natural. And she was right! I still follow some of the advice they gave me, more than 20 years later.
Junior Associate
Thirding Bobbi Brown. My mom did the exact same thing as LAnon. I wear moisturizing cream, tinted sunscreen or BB cream (skip BB if face is breaking out), brown and taupe eye shadow (quick brush across eyebrows with the same brush), and tinted lip balm.
Anonymous
Agree with those saying under eye eyeliner is not a good look. I honestly would skip it all together. A good casual look for me is the milk blur stick, cc cream (I LOVE the erborian one), highlighter on cheekbones, eyelids, and browbone, and a light lip color of some kind. My eyebrows are super bushy so I just groom them so they lie nicely, but I would fill them in a little if they weren’t. I think emphasizing brows looks more modern/natural than doing eyeliner and mascara tbh. I use a bronzey highlighter as opposed to a pearly one.
Pompom
I do the slightest cc cream in spots that need some color correction (if a “big day,” then all over…but I’m lazy af and there are few big days), always brush and fill my big dark brows (Urban Decay brow box powder with a brow brush, skip the wax in the box), the slightest swipe of a highlighter powder (or, in winter, creamy stick) across my hairline, cheekbones, and cupid’s bow, and NARS O’gasm blush. Sometimes, if I’m not remotely awake looking, a little light highlighter on my brow bone, inside corner of eye, bottom outside lashline.
This takes me 3 minutes.
YoungandDumb
For any brown-skinned ladies out there (and if OP happens to be one!) here’s what I’ve been doing for my 5 min (mostly drugstore bc I’m wiping it all off anyway) face:
Asterisks are next to “extra” touches that I only use if I have more than a few minutes:
– dab of concealer from an Elf palette. I used the lightest shade under my eyes and the lightest brown shade for blemishes.*
– Maybelline BB cream in Medium/Deep. I used to use the version with the blue lettering but now use the one with pink lettering because it provides more coverage.
– Dusting of BareMinerals BarePro powder foundation*
– Brows with Loreal Brow Stylist in Noir – if you have black eyebrows like me and want a softer look, I’ve used black eyeshadow with a tiny angled brush for YEARS and get compliments on my brows too!
– Deep Brown Gel Liner (Loreal, I think?) to add some definition without the harshness of a black liner*
– Mascara – Maybelline’s Colossal BigShot, Covergirl Exhibitionist, or both for some vavoom
– Milani Bronzer in Soleil around the perimeters of the face/cheekbones
– Blush from the Elf 4-tone palette which is my RIDE OR DIE
– Lipstick in Maybelline’s Rum Spice (shows up pinker than mauve on my darker lips).I sometimes use an Elf lip liner under this.
It’s cheap and works well for me! I have to leave every morning at 0530 to make into DC for work, so this routine allows me to sleep in as long as possible.
Anonymous
My secret for looking awake is tightlining (lining the inner eyelids) my top and bottom eyelids with a nude eyeliner. I highly recommend Smashbox Always Sharp Waterproof Kohl Liner in “Nude.” This masks any redness from allergies, lack of sleep, etc. and instantly brightens and widens your eyes.
Bras
Is it okay to not wear a bra to the office? Assuming it’s not obvious that you aren’t?
sharkBite
Hm. That’s a tough one.
Please share an example for not wearing one.
emeralds
One time I got a really random cut on my back that my bra strap kept aggravating, so I went bra-less until it healed. My b**bs are small and perky (32C), I do not have particularly aggressive n*pples, and I usually don’t wear bras outside of work. And…I still felt weird about it! I wore a lot of loose layers. I’m not sure anyone else noticed, but it made me feel pretty self-conscious, and I was constantly having to remember to make sure my cardigan was in front of my b**bs if I had to stomp down the hallway for something. Would not repeat unless I really had to.
Ducky36
If no one can tell, I don’t think it really matters.
Another anon
+1
Anon
If you’re small enough not to swing and headlights aren’t a problem, you’re fine. Bras are designed for support, if there is nothing to support, I wouldn’t bother.
Vicky Austin
The only thing I can think of that would disguise bralessness would be a sweatshirt/hoodie, which I would almost exclusively never wear to the office. Maybe this is a YBMV (your boobs may vary) thing?
CountC
I am the opposite of well endowed and wish I could do this comfortably, but I do not want my coworkers seeing my nips poke through my shirts/tops.
pugsnbourbon
I like to go braless in the summer (not at work) and have little adhesive pasties I bought off amazon. They’re fabric with a ring of adhesive around the edge. There are reusable silicone versions as well, but these look more noticeable to me.
Anonymous
I sometimes will wear a very thin wireless bralette with nip*le stickies under a loose/thicker/textured top to work and it’s pretty close to braless.
Anon
I have a friend who is mid sized and she often wore just the shelf camis to work, under a blouse or something. She just didn’t like bras. It was fine. I’m not sure I’d go completely braless if you jiggle or nip out at all, so maybe a cami or a bralette, but if you swear you don’t jiggle then more power to you.
(I’d still ask a good, honest friend to tell you whether she can tell you’re braless, because sometimes we don’t see ourselves as we really are)
Anonymous
I did this once. I got a spray tan at lunch, and I was advised to not wear anything binding for several hours. I wore a cami with a shelf liner and a dark tunic on top (with a loose midi skirt FWIW). I felt fine, and no one seemed to notice.
Anonymous
I’m the same size and I like to use silicone nipple covers (they’re reusable and work great as long as you’re not sweating heavily). No one can tell that I’m not wearing a bra, even if I wear something relatively tight and fitted like a sundress.
Anonymous
I’m a senior in high school looking for some advice since I know that you all are farther along in terms of life and careers. As a disclaimer: I know that there is no “right” answer and am not looking for one, just for any advice, thoughts or experiences you might have. I don’t have a ton of women mentors/role models in my life to ask, so that is part of the reason I am posting here. :)
I recently committed to a large state university for college, so I’m definitely going to be attending that school come fall. I’ve been accepted as an education major with plans/goals to become a principal or start my own private school after teaching in the classroom for a few years. I will graduate with my masters as part of an accelerated 5-year program, and also think I will likely end up getting a PhD (don’t exactly know where that fits into the timeline yet.) I love education, so this seems on surface level like a job that will satisfy me long-term. It’s also very child-friendly.
As much as I love kids, at this point, I’m not convinced that I will necessarily want to get married/have kids at all. I think that being with kids in a large capacity as part of my job will more than fulfill my kid-desire. I also think that if I wasn’t to be a classroom teacher, I could teach piano (my extracurricular interest) to kids and find a way to meet that desire to interact with children that way (or through many other volunteer/type situations.) My mom also wants me to plan on becoming a SAHM after having kids. I’m really, really not convinced that I will want to give up my job (whatever it would be) to stay at home and raise kids, especially because I don’t really think I want kids at all in the first place. I just don’t see myself wanting to be “done” with life after having a child. My thought (and maybe I’m not being realistic) is that I will care about whatever career/job I have and will have a vested interest in it/desire to “see it through.” I don’t see myself being happy or fulfilled staying at home while folding laundry, planning holidays, and driving around kids all day (not looking down on people who do find fulfillment that way.)
I’m also worried about financial security if I stay at home – in terms of if something happened to my husband or we got divorced. I’ve seen a lot of friends whose parents went through that and I can’t imagine setting myself up to not have an income to support me (and my hypothetical children) if something was to happen. My mom’s main thought is that I will eventually have a change of heart and want kids, and then love them so much I can’t bear to be away from them and won’t want to go back to my job. This seems in direct contrast to what a lot of other mentors in my life are telling me, which is more along the lines that I will be looking for more mental/intellectual stimulation and won’t want to stop dead in a career track once I turn 30 and have a kid.
So my first question is: is it realistic that I will want to have kids and stop working as soon as I have them? And is that a smart/realistic choice to make? Again, I know this is personal and there is no “correct” answer, but any experience/advice that anyone might be able to share would be helpful.
Another related topic is that I’m not sure if education is the right path. My whole life I’ve been a Type A person, got nearly perfect SAT scores, was accepted to top schools (was only able to attend state school because of finances), etc.
Most people, my mom included, before this year were really encouraging me to go into some type of law. Part of that was because I can have stereotypical “lawyer” features – good at memorizing, likes to read/write, did debate/MUN in high school, etc. and part because I was/am interested in law. The main reason I didn’t choose law (besides education being child friendly) is because I’ve heard and read that there are not many/any jobs in law for future graduates. I also know myself well enough to know that I wouldn’t really want to go through the stress of biglaw and don’t know if there is another similarity intellectually challenging spot for me that 1) exists and is hiring, 2) that would pay off law school debt, and 3) that would be child friendly if I do have a life change that makes me want kids. So my second question is, does that type of job exist?
I know this is a personal question and that I won’t be able to get the perfect answer. I’m just really feeling lost and am hoping that as women farther along the life path than me, you all might be able to lend some advice. I feel sad at the thought of becoming a teacher when I’ve always felt I wanted to do more (in an intellectual sense, not in a society-looks-down-on-teachers sense) but at the same time also feel nervous when looking at huge law school loans and low prospects in terms of employment (especially since I’ll be coming from a state school and am not sure if that will negatively impact my law school admittance.) I also know that law (of any type) tends to pay a lot more than education, which is something else I want to take into account. This holds true even for a principal position (looked up the numbers :) I grew up in a not super-well-off family (not able to have orthodontia done, leak in ceiling not able to be fixed, etc.) and feel uncomfortable committing myself to a lifetime of not-great-wages as a teacher.
I apologize for this post being a bit of a mess. I know that right now I’m making decisions that will change my life forever, and so I want to make sure I make them as fully educated as I can be. Of course, I could always change my major later if I decide after, say, the first year of college that education really isn’t right for me. However, I know that time (and money, for me, especially) are limited and don’t want to do that if possible. I would really, really love and appreciate any thoughts, advice, or experiences that anyone might be able to share.
Also, as a side note, I know this isn’t usually what people are supposed to post on these threads, but I read Corporette and the discussions in the threads a lot in my free time because I find them interesting and it helps me feel more prepared for situations I might encounter in my future. So I’m also sorry for sort of breaking up the flow in that regard!
For anyone who read this far, thank you for taking the time to do so! I know everyone’s really busy and so I appreciate you giving me that time. :)
BabyAssociate
Your mom is…not giving you good advice. I get that you’re trying to plan for your future, which is great, but you’re getting way too ahead of yourself. Go to college, try to do well, then decide whether or not to go to law school (but definitely do not go just thinking it’s a path to a high paying job).
Ms B
+1000. Life comes at you fast; enjoy this stage first.
On law school, if you really might want to go that route (and trust me, we here will try to talk you out of it), I have multiple lawyer friends who started out in education (teaching high school literature and AP literature, middle school science, and middle school English/grammar, respectively) who ended up going to law school and then practicing law for a while (employment, commercial law at Biglaw, and bankruptcy) before changing careers and/or fields (becoming a minister, transitioning to Smalllaw and becoming a law professor). There is plenty of time for law school – and one of my few regrets is that I did not take a couple years to do something else before the grind and expense of law school.
On education, I also know people who started and stayed in education and who have had gratifying, successful, and even remunerative careers in it. One of my “mom” friends (meaning we met through our kids) is getting ready to retire from middle school teaching in her early 50s with a full pension, having topped the $100K mark in salary in her late 30s and now making over $130K in a MCOL area (teacher salaries are public in my state). She is looking forward to a second career. Another friend got her Ph.D. in educational administration and became the principal of a public school early childhood center in her 40s. She makes good money at a job that has full insurance, a defined benefit pension plan, snow days and federal holidays off, three weeks total paid vacation plus two weeks off over the winter holidays and five days sick leave (and the ability to cash out any unused leave!), paid child care for her kids from age 2 through the start of kindy, and an early day end (she covers 7 a.m. to 4 p.m. at her center while the the assistant principal works later). These are not “low paid” people!
And on your mom — life now is not what it was for her. Things do change (albeit slowly) and it will be different for you than it was for her. Heck, it’s different for me than for The Prodigal Brother, and he’s only 12 years younger than me. I spent years ignoring my mom’s instructions and then demands about where to work, who to marry, whether and when to add a child to me life . . . and trust me, I remain glad that I took my own path.
Anon
There’s a lot to unpack here. My #1 piece of advice is SLOW DOWN. Go to college and see what happens. You have no idea how things will happen. It’s very likely that your life will not turn out exactly how you planned. Take everything one step at a time. Don’t start thinking about a PhD or having kids right now. You will horribly limit yourself by trying to plan everything in advance. Go to college, enjoy it, live your life.
Anon
Oh and stop listening to your mother.
Anon
+100000000. Be independent and live away from home if at all feasible (with roomates, if that helps financially). Go on study abroad, or take a gap year to work in a different city. You don’t need your mom’s permission to live your life, even if understandably it feels that way now.
Anonymous
+100. One thing to keep in mind is that you can major in most anything and go to law school. There aren’t a bunch of pre-requisite classes that you need to take and need to plan out early in your college years (contrast this to medical school). You definitely don’t have to figure it all out right now
And, stop letting your mom take up so much space in your head. This will probably get easier when you head off to school in the fall. Her path is not your path and her advice will often not be the best advice for you to take, no matter how much you love her and how well-intentioned she is. I’m a lawyer with a mom who quit teaching to SAH when I was born. She has a lot of opinions on my career, despite knowing almost nothing about the field.
Keep in mind, Biglaw represents a very small fraction of lawyer jobs. Plenty of people are finding intellectual and financial satisfaction outside of those positions. Plenty of people have kids at the same time. If you are still interested in a couple of years, go meet some local lawyers and shadow part of their day.
Cookbooks
I agree with BabyAssociate–you’re thinking about things you don’t need to think about yet. Once you start college and start taking classes you’ll starting getting a feel as to whether education is a good fit for you. You might take an elective and find that that subject really piques your interest. You’ll find your path.
As for your mom, don’t worry right now about what she hopes for you. Cross that bridge when you come to it. People say this often about med school, but I think it applies to law school as well: it’s something you should only if you really want to.
Good luck and enjoy college!
Anonymous
I’m joining the chorus of “slow down” and “breathe.” There is no way you can plan all this out now. Absolutely no way. A huge percentage of college students switch majors because they are growing up and maturing and discovering new things. You may very well be one of them. I worked in the area in which I majored for five years, realized it wasn’t what I was interested in long-term, and moved on to a different career. My story is not unusual.
Life is going to hand you twists and turns that you cannot see coming. A key adult life skill you need to develop (and you can start now) is
how to tolerate uncertainty without going crazy
If you can learn to do that, you’ll be better stabilized for the rest of your life. I suspect us telling you this isn’t going to affect you very much, because you feel driven to know all this. So I’ll repeat: what you’re trying to do is impossible at your life stage. DO NOT NURTURE ANXIETY.
Anon
Well said. I graduated high school at the top of my class and thought I would be a writer and married with kids by 30. I ended up hating studying English, dropped out, transferred schools, worked a ton of different jobs, ended up in a totally different career, and I’m still single at 33. You have literally no idea what will happen and thinking about it this much will kill you.
Abby
First off, congrats on graduating high school and doing so well! I graduated high school in 2010 and can remember the feeling of having my entire life in front of me and not wanting to screw anything up.
1. About having children and working, I think your mom is projecting a lot of her ideas onto you and you’re a little young to be worrying about all of these issues. It’s great to be aware, but I assume you’re nowhere near getting married and children are a ways off. I grew up always wanting kids, and now I’m not so sure I do. You’re allowed to change your opinions as you grow up or see what life throws at you. If you do have kids, what you do with your career is another big decision. There are flexible jobs out there, it also depends on if you have family nearby and if they can help with childcare, or if your household can afford full time child care. Again, I think it’s a decision you make when you’re closer to the moment.
2. There are plenty of flexible jobs that exist, but it depends on the company. My last job we had flexible working hours so we could leave during the day for appointments or leave early if necessary, as long as we got our work done. My current job, we have to have to be in from strict 8-4:30 pm unless we use vacation or sick time to leave. For your career/major, I would take your core classes and pick one or two per semester as exploratory. I know it feels like every decision you make is life-changing, but I had friends who didn’t declare their majors until Junior year. Many people changed from pre-med to a different path altogether. Try to take your life one semester at a time.
You seem very sweet, I hope you enjoy the end of your high school career and the beginning of college. It’s a really exciting and fun time!
Cat
My best advice to you is: give yourself options. Try classes outside your major and be open to changing your mind. But that said, choose a college major that will allow you to support yourself at graduation even if you decide not to pursue an advanced degree.
It is impossible for you to know 100% now if (a) you want your own children, AND (b) whether you will want to and/or be financially able to stay home to care for them.
anon
Yes, wow. I can sense the anxiety in this post and I recognize it because that was was me at 18. Breathe. You’ve got a plan and that’s great, but you also have no idea what will happen, which is an exciting part of life. You may very well stick to your path to being a principal. Or, you may take a class that inspires you to do something totally different. You may meet the love of your life and completely change your attitude towards having kids. You may be offered an opportunity that takes you to a different part of the world. You do not have to have everything figured out right now. And you absolutely do not have to do what your mom tells you to. I think it every young adult’s life, there comes a time when you realize your parents aren’t right about everything. But you’ll have to come to that realization on your own.
Anon
First of all – take a deep breath. I understand the pressure of going to college and feeling like you have to make all the “right” decisions. But you have time. you don’t have to arrive with every decision already made and your life already planned.
When I started college, I was being pushed by my parents to major in English and pursue a career as a teacher. I wanted to be a lawyer. Guess what – I did neither of those things, and I’ve had a fulfilling, financially rewarding career. As Cookbooks says, you may find electives that pique your interest. Be open to the opportunities that college will give you! I was the first in my family to attend college, so I understand the pressure you’re feeling to be successful and make the most of the opportunity you have. But to do that, you need to experience college, take classes, work at a few jobs, and see what it is you want to do with your life. (As a side note, that may change over time! And that’s OK too.)
By the way, your mom sounds exactly like mine. I listened to mine, got married quickly, and ended up in an abusive marriage. While I have no kids, I’ve found much happiness as an aunt to my nieces and nephews and my close friends’ children. There are so many ways to build a family and be around kids if that’s what you want. But please don’t listen to your mom and feel forced into being a SAHM! Live your own life and worry about what happens after you get married (if you get married) when that happens.
Good luck and have a wonderful time at college! Be open to all the new experiences you’ll find there!
Anon.
Agree to all the above commenters – Slow Down. Yes, you are making decisions right now that impact your future, but there are so many variables and unknowns that it is basically impossible to see what your life is going to look like 4/5 years from now when you finish college, let alone 5/10 years from now in your career/family life. But you really don’t have to have all the answers right now.
Maybe you’ll meet the love of your life in college and decide you want nothing more than to have babies. Maybe not. Maybe some day 10 years into your career you’ll decide that it just isn’t working and completely change direction. I have an awesome job, an amazing husband and an adorable toddler; right now I’m pregnant with #2 and maybe 9 months from now I’ll decide that I’m never going back to work — I don’t think so but who knows. What I’m saying is – if I don’t know what my life is going to look like 9 months from now; there’s no way to know what your life is going to like 5 years from now. You just have to lean into the unknown. Enjoy the experience of growing up that college gives you.
You don’t have to decide you want to go to law school when you’re a senior in high school. I have a very good friend who was an education major all through college. She ended up going to law school and her practice specializes in education law now. I have another good friend who was focused on being a lawyer throughout undergrad and law school. Turns out he hated practicing law and now he’s a teacher. Life is unpredictable.
Explorette
I understand this, I am a planner by nature and want to know the path my life is going to take. But, life isn’t going to unfold how you plan for it. And it certainly isn’t going to unfold how your mom plans it for you! What has worked for me is to have a general idea of where I’m heading, but able to pivot and recalculate as things change.
As far as having kids goes: some people don’t want kids when they are younger and change their minds, some people don’t want kids when they are younger and never change their minds. If you think you don’t want kids, don’t have them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And if there comes a time when you want to have them, then at that time you and your partner can look at your situation, desires, and finances and decide if it makes sense for you to stay at home. That is not your mom’s call to make.
As far as a job goes: if you are just starting college, you are at least 8 years away (if you go to law school or other grad school) from needing to find a job. The world is going to change a lot between now and then. Spend some of your college time taking different classes in different areas. You never know what might appeal to you. I changed majors halfway through because I took an elective class to fulfill a requirement and loved it. Most importantly, choose a major because you want to, not because of what other people tell you or what you read.
It sounds like you are doing very well. Take some of the pressure off and give yourself permission to not need to know all this now, and to live your life how you want to, not to please your mom. Go have fun!
Vicky Austin
Hi. I echo everything that everyone else has already said (breathe, you’re good, don’t go to law school if you don’t really want to). What your mom wants for you is her problem. I don’t think it’s a battle worth fighting (e.g., when she tells you “oh so when you have babies and you’re at home with them,” just nod and smile rather than yelling at her), but you don’t need to listen to her.
Two things. My mom is my hero, because at various times in her life she has been both a stay at home mom and a working mom, and each time she made those decisions, she did it without any regard for what society, her own mother, her friends were telling her. She considered what she and her family needed and wanted (in that exact order) and she made the best decision she could. I want to be very clear that I know how lucky she was to be able to step in and out like that, it’s not possible for all careers or people (coincidentally, my mom is a teacher, if that gives you any ray of hope). However, the fact remains that the course of your life is never decided and you can change your own life at any age you decide to.
Secondly, college is a lot longer than four years in mental and emotional time. Your life will be completely different six months from now, I can 100% promise you that. Your plans will probably have changed. And that’s completely normal! And honestly it’s a really fun part of life, the wondering of “ooooh, what if I explored THIS?” and the discovery that “oh, I’m really good at THIS!” So have fun with that!
Anon for this
I come from a similar background and had much of the similar categories of worries from 8th grade onwards. I went to a public university, funded by merit scholarshios and work-study and tutoring kids throughout college, and graduated without debt. In high school I always thought I’d be a professor or teacher or a career diplomat. Or a neurosurgeon. Or be on one of those UN tribunals. I was always insecure about money (still am, despite my Biglaw salary — I don’t come from money and support my parents financially). Back in high school and college, I never wanted to be married, let alone have kids, and had vowed to live without a romance and dedicated to my career. Now, I’m 33 and in Biglaw (never imagined myself here but going on 7 years!), and I definitely want to have many amazing and loving relationships. And get married and have kids if I meet someone I want to spend my life with.
That being said, if I could go back and talk to me in my college freshman year, I would tell myself to be open minded — not just for the big ideas, but also about who I am, what I like in myself and appreciate in others, what are darkest fears, what I am trying to outrun, what are my shame triggers and what redeems me, what I am passionate about outside the boxes of “what should be” “what I should do”, but what I’m capable of and what I can discover about myself and the world if I let myself live and dream and try new experiences a little. I would tell myself to read Brene Brown and John Gottman and Mark Manson and Amy Cuddy and Angela Duckworth. I would tell myself to be vulnerable (easier said than done), that despite my Type A life and school records, there is no guaranteed way to predict how I will feel about a career, or way of life, 10 or 15 or 20 years from now. I would tell myself to try the on-campus free counseling services earlier rather than later, because this one will set me free from my own constraints and change how I live my life — much more so than any amount of the scores of perfect exams, getting into a top law school, or getting a Biglaw job ever will — because I would recognize (after several sessions in therapy) that I was running my life based on my fears and shame, hedging against disappointment and failure, rather than stepping toward and discovering and living my own life. I would tell myself to read the school bulletin and take advantage of scholarships and study abroad and various opportunities and resources around camps. I would tell myself to earn and set aside some money to travel, even if alone, in hostels. I would tell myself that life has so much more in store than I can ever imagine, much less plan, and that there will be tears and pain and sleepless nights, but also belonging and love and joy and happiness, and not from attaining a job or goal (for me that was more an issue of survival) but from the people I will meet along the way and the person that I will discover and grow into. I’d tell myself that no amount of worry and planning is a substitute for going out there into the weeds and experiencing things and making choices about what I want, and giving up the other opportunities in the process.
I think it’s great you’re thinking ahead and planning for the future and being responsible with your finances so early on. Having a fulfilling career is important, paying the bills is important, being independent is important, family and friendship and love is important, your health and well-being is important. That being said, if you’re anything like me, I’d tell you to relax. Breathe. Be responsible, financially and personally (corporette threads on personal finance and dating and life have been great resources for me), but from the sounds of it, even if you cut yourself a little slack and try new things or experiment with ideas or careers, you’ll still be more responsible than 90% of the population. Gain firsthand experience volunteering in education or working as a paralegal in a law firm or saving the world, wherever your interest lie. Don’t go into debt or get kicked out of school (or in my case, get good enough GPAs to maintain merit scholarship $$ at my public school), but give yourself permission to try and fail at some things. And to enjoy yourself a little in the process. You don’t have to stick to a set vision of who you are, should be, and will be, whether in your choice of career, how that affects your choice re marriage/kids and other life choices. Your mom’s opinion is just another person’s opinion. Meet new people, find mentors online and IRL, listen to diverse perspectives, and remember that you call the shots in your own life, and only you can decide how things weigh in the balance – when the time comes to make these choices.
Be yourself, but don’t lock yourself into what kind of person you should be. Work hard, explore, try new things, be lazy and just play once in a while, and most importantly, have fun, whatever that means for you at any given moment in time. Good luck, you’ve got this.
emeralds
YES ALL OF THIS SO MUCH, from someone in higher education.
Anon
I got out of teaching due to the way the field is headed (political problems, pensions being raided, NCLB, teaching to the test, useless metrics used as professional review goals, et cetera) and many of my friends and family have done the same. If it is truly a calling for you, that’s wonderful, and it can be very fulfilling. But the reality is that burnout is very high, and pay is very low (it’s not advertised as such, but the truth is that you grade/lesson-plan long past 3:00 and for at least part of the summer). If you do move into administration, know that they are often expected to serve as a representative of the school in a semi-political way, so you may need to perform face time at weeknight and weekend sporting events, cheering competitions, school plays, concerts, debates, et cetera. I encourage you to job shadow or seek a mentor working in education before you go full-speed into the major.
I’m also child-free (and over 40, and sterilized–I’m not changing my mind) and I encourage you to stop voicing the idea of not wanting kids for a while. Most people will not take you seriously or will actively argue with you about it (especially your family), and it really isn’t worth the mental energy it takes to convince them. It’s not a stance that you have to climb onto a podium and announce. Give a vague, noncommittal response to people asking about your reproductive plans for now. I hand-waved the idea away for 20 years before people stopping bugging me about it. You don’t need to have a final answer now, and there may be any number of deciding factors that come into play in the future.
Also, gently, please stop letting your mother plan your life. Your hypothetical children’s parenting should be planned by you (and their father), not their grandmother. If you don’t want to be a SAHM, or any mom at all, that’s your decision to make.
Anon
You’ve gotten good advice – I think many young people are pushed to commit to a job before they have exposure to the variety of jobs “out there.” And many jobs that you might be good at don’t even exist yet. Only one additional consideration, I actually have found that while education has some family-friendly aspects (like summer off, basically), it is actually very family unfriendly in a lot of others — i.e. you can’t really work from home, the pay is not great, there is so much pressure to do afterschool/weekend things if you are an administrator. My girlfriend who is a principal has a stay at home husband and that seems to work well for them. My friends who are married to teachers and administrators resent it a lot because their husbands are ALWAYS working and they don’t get paid well. You sound smart enough to do a lot of jobs well, and you may just want to consider some that pay well and offer more flexibility if you want to work when you have kids. But mostly, you are YEARS away from having to do this. If you come from a community where everyone is married and has babies before they’re 24, just know that it is one perspective and there are a lot of us out here who waited until 30s to have kids and stable careers and you have time to think about what’s right for you. Use college as a way not just to get from point A to point B fastest but also to explore what else might be out there.
Anonymous
If you haven’t, you may also want to visit corporettemoms to get a glimpse into the lives of many women who didn’t leave their careers to become SAHMs.
I work in education, and I love it, but I am not sure I would advise someone in your shoes to go into it as a major from the get-go. It’s good to know that you can always teach if another plan doesn’t come through, but (a) you can still teach even if you majored in something else, (b) if you do end up teaching, and if you want to move into admin roles, you can get any education degrees you need to be a principal while you’re already teaching.
The teachers I know who went straight for education degrees were really motivated to work with children, to get into the classroom, and to develop practical skills of classroom management. Is that how you feel? I know other people who went into teaching after earning university degrees in history, biology, English, and classics. They teach because they love learning and research, and they enjoy introducing the things that matter to them to curious young people. But their original majors gave them other options, including law school.
Don’t forget about private schools: I know at least two women who had whole careers before they had children, and then they went into teaching so they could spend more time with their kids at fancy private schools with lots of outdoor time and mixed age instruction. Maybe you would hate that, but it’s a big world out there with many options, some of which we make for ourselves.
Overall, I’d encourage you to explore what you university has to offer with an open mind, and think of teaching as a fall back that will be there no matter what you choose now.
Anonymous
I was you 24 years ago. As an 18-year-old, I wanted to get my whole life mapped out. I spent a lot of time figuring out my life plan. Go to college, move to NYC, get a big-time corporate job, maybe maybe maybe at one point get married and then maybe think about having kids. I struggled a lot with what my parents wanted for me (my mom wanted me to be an anesthesiologist; I am not a math/science person so there was no way I was going to med school) vs. what I wanted.
I could never have predicted at your age what my life would be. As it turned out, a mere 4 years after I turned 18 I got married (that was definitely not in the life plan!) and 20 years later I am still married to the same person. We originally did not want kids but ended up going through fertility treatment 6 years into our marriage to have one. I didn’t even visit NYC until I was 31 and once I visited, I realized moving there never would have worked for me. I tried to go back to grad school four, yes, four times before I actually committed to something and got my master’s. In a field I had never even heard of when I was your age. I have a job doing something that didn’t even really exist when I was in high school and I love it. My whole life is basically a living illustration of the idea that “man plans, God laughs.”
You have SO MUCH time to figure all this out. You don’t have to worry right now about whether or not you want to work after kids or stay home. That is going to be dependent on so many factors you can’t even reasonably estimate right now. You don’t have to have kids, period, is one factor. You may or may not end up having a child with a partner. If you do have a child with a partner, the partner is going to have feelings about whether or not you work or stay home that you will most likely include in your evaluation. There are known unknowns and unknown unknowns at your age. They far outnumber the known knowns.
If I could give advice to 18-year-old me, it would be:
– Don’t be in such a hurry to grow up; adulting is overrated
– All adults figure things out as they go along, there is no instruction manual for your life
– Your parents love you but their experiences are not your experiences; their lives were limited in ways yours aren’t
– It’s okay not to have all the answers right now, or even in the future
– While you are busy planning how you’re going to become a boss bish and conquer the world, don’t forget to have fun. Be silly! Make some mistakes! Date the wrong people, go to some bad parties, take spontaneous road trips with people you don’t know very well. When you get older, the consequences of bad decisions are a lot more serious. Now is the time to go try some things out so you figure out what you really want out of life.
It’s awesome you’re thinking through all of this but trying to plan all of this out right now will just create anxiety and stress you don’t need. Take a deep breath. Relax. You don’t have to have it all figured out right now. I am 42 and still don’t have it all figured out.
Anonymous
One more addition: I come from a family of teachers so there was a lot of pressure for me to be a teacher also. I was told by family members, and also by others (including the male coach of my high school debate team) that being a teacher is “a great job for a woman” because you get time off when your kids are off. Soooo many assumptions in that, including that A. I liked teaching; B. I liked kids enough to want to spend every day with them; C. I was going to have kids, D. etc. etc. etc. My mom was an elementary school teacher and I knew from watching her at work (she taught at the school I went to) that I did not want to do that. I let the nagging about getting a teaching license go in one ear and out the other.
I now have a job where I actually do a fair amount of instructing of adults as part of my corporate job. I love that aspect of it. I never would have made it as a classroom teacher of kids. Never. And I knew that about myself, even at your age.
You will always have people in your ear telling you what they think you should do with your life. The ONLY thing that matters is your idea of what you want to do with your life, and at this point that idea should not be bounded by anything. You can literally be anything you want to be. An astronaut. President of the United States. CEO of a Fortune 500 company. It’s all wide open. Don’t let your mom, or anyone, limit your beliefs of what your life can be. She loves you but her perspective is limited by her own experiences, and while you can’t fault her for that, you can’t live your life within her narrowed scope of view. You got this, girl. I am rooting for you no matter where you decide to take your life from here.
Anonymous
You’ve gotten a TON of great advice on here. One thing about kids from someone who is pregnant with baby #1 – I met my husband when I was a freshman in college (we didn’t start dating for a few years, we were friends for a while first) and I always knew that we’d get married and have kids. I sort of figured the marriage and kids would happen right away, he’d go on to be a law firm partner big time litigator and I’d stay at home with a few kids after having done the lawyer thing for a few years because it sounded “fun”*. Fast forward and we’ve been together almost fourteen years, married for almost 6. I am the one with the biglaw job and do *not* plan to stay home with the kids and he’s a great in house role with far less hours and an extremely predictable schedule (basically the opposite of what we both thought would happen). So, even when you know you’re going to marry someone and have a kid(s), it doesn’t mean that you know how the rest of it is going to fall in line. Also, I figured I’d be maybe 28 at the oldest with the first kid, but I’m in my mid thirties because life happens and having kids is a huge decision. Just something to think about.
*don’t pick any career just/only because it sounds “fun”. I’m happy where I am, but looking back I’d slap my 18 year old self across the face if I heard her say that.
Anon
“My mom also wants me to plan on becoming a SAHM after having kids. I’m really, really not convinced that I will want to give up my job (whatever it would be) to stay at home and raise kids, especially because I don’t really think I want kids at all in the first place. I just don’t see myself wanting to be “done” with life after having a child.”
Your mother’s opinion is irrelevant. The relevant issues are your own desires when you hit that stage in life, your husband’s opinion, your family finances, any special needs your child may have, your husband’s job security, the stability of your marriage, and the ease of moving back into the workforce in your own career if you do stay home.
I echo the chorus of “slow down,” but will try to phrase it in a way that my 18 year old self would have understood (because I didn’t when people threw platitudes at me): there are too many variables for you to plan everything out at once. You also do not know how you will like certain career paths until you try them. (I, personally, completely hate career paths related to my passions. They are stressful, low-paying, and have a way of making me hate what I had been passionate about. )
You may ‘like kids,’ but that does not mean you have to, or even SHOULD, make a career out of liking kids.
You may think you should go the PhD (or EdD) route, but graduate degrees are determined by a need to get that particular degree for a particular job. Your job is to position yourself well to get that degree (excellent grades, teacher recommendations, and summer internships); those things position you well for any route you choose. The career you choose 4 years from now will likely be a better decision than the career you choose now, because you will have had four more years to learn about whether or not you like teaching, administration, etc.
In college and shortly thereafter, you find career paths you had never heard of before college. Many young people only think of ‘famous’ careers (doctor, nurse, lawyer, policeman), careers their parents did, and careers they see other people doing (teachers), and have no idea of the huge variety of career paths out there. A driven, articulate, inquisitive woman might be an amazing achaeologist, economist, or lobbyist.
The advice I always give is to understand what types of things you enjoy doing. (If you like to debate, do not become a lawyer; debating is a hobby.) If you enjoy administration and people management, a principal may be a good fit for you; if you enjoy teaching, then you may hate even being a department head. You may really, really want to become a professor because the research appeals to you and you prefer teaching more complex topics.
Anonymous
Thank you to everyone who wrote back. I really appreciate it and am definitely going to take all of your advice/thoughts to heart. Again, thank you so much!
Noise Cancelling Headphone Recs
Any recs for noise cancelling headphones? For flights and potentially everyday use for sleeping (DH snores. A lot.)? I was looking into Bose QC35 ii and Sony H.ear, but couldn’t make up my mind — and also having second thoughts about in-ear options too. I know there have been some discussions in the past but can’t seem to search the comments.
Leatty
DH and I both have the Bose QC 35s and love them. I use them at work (open floor plan), DH uses his to sleep (he sleeps on his back), and we both use them for flights.
Ducky36
I’ve had the QC 15s for years and I love them.
Anon
I have the Bose QC 25 and I like them, although the noise canceling function has recently stopped working. I think something with the battery connection got jostled or something. It will turn on but immediately stops working (lasts a little longer if I’m holding my head perfectly still). I’ve had them about a year and a half. I’m going to try cleaning the battery connections and hopefully that will fix the problem, otherwise I’m going to be really bummed :( Noise canceling headphones have been a total life changer when flying.
Anon
I have and love Bose QC 35!
Eye sunscreen
What type of sunscreen do you ladies use on the delicate skin around your eye area? Everything I’ve tried seems to either aggravate my skin or make my eyes burn. Help!
Anon
Biore Aqua Rich Watery Essence
BabyAssociate
+1
Anonymous
+1
Anon
My very good friend’s baby is having his first birthday soon (I am an honourary auntie). They asked for no gifts but I’d like to get some kind of keepsake to mark the occasion. Is there anything you appreciated for your own children?
Anon
A card, maybe a small token of something designed not to stick around (flowers, edible token of appreciation for the whole family/parents for getting that far), donation to the local zoo or Children’s Museum?
They don’t want things clogging up their house so don’t give them something they will feel an obligation to keep.
Senior Attorney
Yeah they asked for no gifts because their house is about to explode from all the stuff they already have. If you absolutely, positively can’t help yourself, if they celebrate Christmas I give you permission to give a commemorative Christmas ornament.
CountC
I don’t have children so take my advice from that perspective. . . I adopted an elephant for my honorary nephew for his birthday this year through Sheldrick Wildlife Trust. It did not add stuff to their house, it supports a cause my bff cares about, and provides an opportunity to learn about elephants!
pugsnbourbon
I’ve been told that the first birthday isn’t a celebration of the kid, it’s a celebration of the parents for keeping the kid/themselves alive through the first year. I’d bring nice booze (if they drink) and flowers.
Rainbow Hair
Hear hear!!!
Eertmeert
I brought a half pint of blueberries for my friends’ baby’s first bday. A big hit with everyone.
AnonMom
How to react? I monitor my 13 YO’s text activity (random unannounced spot checks that she knows she is subject to). Yesterday I came across a few month-old texts with a recently-out trans friend/classmate where my kid thinks expresses a vague sense of being unhappy with puberty-related changes, and supposes this means they are both trans now, right? The friend was understandably ecstatic to have this sudden commonality and launched into ideas about renaming my child, who they should both hang out with now, new hobbies to consider, but…this friend does not have much support from family, has alienated a lot of other classmates by trying to convince them that they are probably all secretly trans and just need to admit it to themselves, and my kid is a people-pleaser with a history of suddenly proclaiming avid devotion to an idea or desire that a valued friend holds dear (regardless of it being very out of character for my child), only to have the sudden interest fade into nothingness in a few months once the novelty wears off. I want to support my child, but I also suspect this falls into that category. What would you do here?
Anon
I think this is less about talking to your daughter about whether she is trans and making sure to have regular repeated conversations about her people pleasing nature and confidence boosting so she doesn’t fall prey to predators, bullies and mean girls with ill intentions.
I wouldn’t worry about the “am I trans” thing. If she is, she’ll stick with this, if she’s not, she’ll lose interest when she thinks about wearing masculine clothes, cutting her hair, and going on hormone suppressants. Trans or not, this pushy friend may not be the best influence on your daughter so I’d make sure to talk to her about peer pressure, etc.
Cat
What did your kid text back?
AnonMom
Not much more, just “ok” and then the conversation changed to discussing homework due dates.
Cat
So why are you worried? Kid was listening to a friend, sharing some worries about puberty (uh not uncommon) but ultimately moving on in a nice way.
Vicky Austin
That’s tough – I feel for your kid’s friend, who is probably really, really lonely. How were you made aware that friend has spent a lot of time trying to convince classmates they are secretly trans? If your daughter is herself aware of this, maybe you can point out to her that this is a pattern? How you can point out that she may be a victim of a pattern without implying that you don’t think she’s really trans might be sticky.
AnonMom
This is where I am at. My daughter has been a good friend to her classmate through a lot of difficult drama and I am very proud of her for that. She has shared several times that the friend has been ostracized because, while classmates don’t really care one way or the other, they are tired of being preached at to reconsider their own orientations and want to talk about, well, anything else. I have talked with her about the people-pleasing pattern in the past but it has always been lower stakes topics (grade school career ideas, hobby aspirations that are out of the realm of reality for our climate, that sort of thing). Even though my gut tells me this is in that same vein, it seems like so much more sensitive of a topic that I want to be very considerate of how I broach it.
Vj
A 13 year old is way to old for this type of privacy intrusion. You need to stop micromanaging her. You’re creating a problem that’s isn’t there. Are that troll that keeps posting about trans issues all the time?
Anon
Omg, not every post about anything to do with trans people is from a troll. Chill.
Anonymous
Are you a parent? Basically every single piece of advice out there, including stuff written by the American Academy of Pediatrics, says you should monitor your child’s phone and internet activity. 13 is in no way “too old” for “this type of privacy intrusion.” I am sure the OP is paying the child’s phone bill.
Anon
With all due respect, you have a difference in parenting methods with OP, this is not some major affront to the privacy rights of an adult. Checking a young teen’s phone that you pay for is perfectly fine and normal, especially since her daughter knows it is a condition of having the phone.
You may do the whole “free range”, don’t say “no” to children, let your kids be wild thing but not everyone feels that way, and some kids actually need more structure. I hope your kid doesn’t wander off with a predator one day due to lack of parental oversight.
AnonMom
Yes, random (and admittedly infrequent) monitoring was a condition of the phone. And since the number itself was handed down from a departed family member occasionally there are non-child communications that need to be addressed or redirected.
Rainbow Hair
I’m not sure where I’ll fall when Kiddo is this age, but I do think that it is essential that a child have *somewhere* to feel their feelings and express themselves to their peers, without monitoring. I want my kid to be able to b*tch about me to her friends without worrying that I’ll hear, or heaven forfend that she’ll get in trouble for it, y’know? I guess maybe she’ll just have to do that face-to-face, if the phone world is too scary.
Anonymous
This very well could be the troll, but it is entirely appropriate for parents to monitor a 13-year-old’s on-line activity to ensure that she is not interacting with strangers, posting personal information, engaging in cyberbullying, etc. If this post is genuine, it is the kind of information that I’d classify as a collateral discovery while monitoring for the real concerns, and would not bring up with my child.
AnonMom
Nope, apparently I am different troll. Thanks so much for your constructive conversation!
Stop Reading Your Kids' Texts
I am a parent, with a teen and a tween, and I agree with this.
Anon
Check out Lisa Littman’s work on social contagion in transgender identification among youth. Your kid isn’t trans, but the vast majority of kids who ID as trans desist by adulthood. Skepticism is the best thing for your child since the alternative is to embark on a harmful hormone regimen that results in sterility (among other serious issues, including bone density loss) and that has never, ever been proven safe for use in adolescents. You’re a good mother and you know your child best.
AnonMom
Thank you, I will look into that. Even having a description like this is helpful for internally articulating and framing what I suspect is the reality of the situation.
Anon
Check out the website 4th Wave Now as well. It’s a collection of parents who have kids who suddenly ID as trans and how they’ve dealt with it. Really helpful and evidence-based.
AnonMom
Thanks, I will dig in to this over the weekend.
pugsnbourbon
Littman’s original article was pulled after publication in 2018 and subjected to further review. She published corrections March 2018 in PLOS One: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0214157 4th wave now seems pretty explicitly anti-trans.
You sound like a good mom who wants the best for her kid. Keep the lines of communication open and make sure she knows she can tell you about any confusion she’s feeling.
AnonMom
Thanks for the link.
I think my own uncertainty centers on addressing the herd mentality part of this (even if the herd currently consists of just my kid and her one friend) with kindness. I don’t want to make assumptions that are not true, but I do want to give advice and guidance about figuring out her identity for herself, not to fit in or make someone else happy.
Anonymous
I would find a new hobby that isn’t making up trans issues to troll with.
AnonMom
If only I could fully express how helpful your thoughtful advice was…
Anonymous
No 13 year old has finished developing into a man or a woman, so I think it’s probably pretty common for teens who will feel differently later to identify as non-binary, genderfluid, or trans at that age. And teenagers have always rebelled against historically contingent aspects of traditional gender roles to a certain extent, because that is what teens do. I think the part of this that’s worrying is the “being pressured by a friend” part.
Anon
Hot take: Be the loving and supportive parent you’ve always been regardless of what they do. If they come out as trans, be accepting of it, remind them that their worth/value has nothing to do with their gender so if they change their mind it’s okay, but let them get it out of their system, in temporary ways (not recommending any kind of hormone therapy as even though it’s not the scary thing the media makes it out to be, it is a serious medical decision not to be taken lightly). There’s a limited range of things that can happen. Most unlikely, they really are trans, and this lets them start figuring that out now instead of spending time as someone they’re not. Slightly more likely, they learn from this. They learn what it’s like to try on new personas, new social roles, and make informed decisions on who they want to be, and gain a bit of empathy and understanding for people who are trans. Even more likely, they realize they aren’t trans, they return to their previous state secure with the knowledge that you are a loving parent who accepts them for whoever they are, and are left with no lingering resentment over not being allowed to “be themselves.” You’d be surprised how long those feelings of oppression (real or perceived) can persist and fester. The impacts can be even more long lived than a pretty normal experimentation with identity.
I know that for a lot of people, transness has become a fad with teenagers, but I don’t think it’s as scary as everyone makes it out to be. All teenagers are are just kids trying to figure out who they’re going to be. Every teen from the dawn of time has gone through multiple iterations and prototypes. Gender identity is just a more “modern” avenue for the same kind of identity exploration every teen goes through. Not every phase will stick around but that doesn’t make it any less real or impactful for that teen. Every new version of themselves they cycle through educates them on the kind of person they want to be and I think it’s important to be accepting and candid about this process.
Anon
Do nothing, it seems like your kid was just trying on new hats and hasn’t come to you with a big proclamation that she’s trans or anything. There’s nothing wrong with her talking about it or even wondering if it applies to her. I think part of being a teen is floundering around and thinking about your identity, figuring out who you are and becoming more confident in that is a process.
AnotherAnon
As a people-pleaser myself, I would gently advise you to ignore this. 1) It happened a month ago, which is years in middle school time, 2) it seems like your kid handled it fine, 3) if my 13 y/o self had been subjected to a parental admonishment about how I should not people-please my friend, I would have felt pressure to please *you* and then had to weigh that against the pressure to please the friend. It took me until my mid-20s to get over my people-pleasing tendencies, and even today I tend to over commit because I have a hard time distinguishing between what I want and what I think I should want. I’m proud that you’re sensitive to this and trying to help her through, but I am not sure this is a place to take a stand. On a separate note: I have a trans sibling and your daughter’s friend needs more friends like her.
pugsnbourbon
+1.