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Updated: May 12, 2021 282 Comments · by

Splurge Monday’s Workwear Report: Primley Crepe Dress

The Personal Shopper (TPS) | ·

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As the world is slowly starting to reopen, I’m waffling between being thrilled to get dressed up again, and dreading the idea of putting on any clothing that I can’t fully relax in.

If any designer could inspire me to put on heels and Spanx again, it’s Roland Mouret, whose simple designs are always so gorgeous. This shade of blue is bright enough to be cheerful, but not overpowering, and the off-center pleats add some visual interest without distracting from the perfect tailoring.

As an added bonus, because this is 2021, it comes with a coordinating face covering.

The dress is $1,440 at Net-a-Porter (with 15% off at checkout) and comes in UK sizes 6–20.

This sleeveless dress from Black Halo is a very similar color and comes in sizes 0–14 for $325 ($243 at Bloomingdale's, but lucky sizes only); this Antonio Melani dress is $159 at Dillard's and also available in sizes 0–14.

P.S. Happy Holi to those who celebrate!

Sales of note for 9.30.24

Sales of note for 9.30.24

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

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About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. Anon

    This morning I had to come into the office for the first time in months, so I had to get up 2.5 hours earlier. Luckily, a giant spider woke me up at 4:00 by tap-dancing on my face.

    I decided to treat myself by stopping at Dunkin’ and thought I’d try a Matcha Latte, which tasted like bog water and made me feel ill after a few sips. Currently trying not to hurl at my desk, since looking sick in public is not de rigueur. Only eight hours to go.

    So how’s your Monday?

    • Cb

      Ugh, same. It was super windy and I had awful nightmares. Now sitting at my desk with a headache. Trying to make heads or tails out of a conference programme and am pretty sure it will be a disaster.
      Going for a walk to try and clear the cobwebs.

    • Anonymous

      Monday on itself so far has been pretty tame, other than waking up feeling sore everywhere.

      But the previous two weeks have been pretty terrible at work and I just want to call it quits on adulting on the single life. Small stupid trivial thing – I’m so tired of pandemic restrictions that I miss group meeting lunches, because that meant one meal I didn’t have to spend time prepping or even think about buying. Food just showed up, I ate it. So trivial, I know, yet I miss it so much right now. On bigger issues – my car’s rear lights are messed up, the bathroom in my ground room guest floor is leaking, the carpet is wet, and my mom is saying she wants to come visit for 3 months after she’s vaccinated so that means I’ll have to hire a team for deep cleaning or else my mom will constantly talk about how I need to be cleaning toilets 24/7.

      • Curious

        A little snarky but…Feel like your mom ought to take over the toilets if she’s coming that long.In the Midwest you’re a guest the first week and then you are a contributing member of the household.

      • pugsnbourbon

        You’re not alone on the food front. We’re getting takeout more and more just because I can’t motivate myself to make one. more. thing.
        Also! The issue with your taillights might be a really easy fix. I’ve replaced lightbulbs in my headlights/taillights many times. If it’s more complicated than that, at least I hope it won’t be too expensive.

    • Formerly Lilly

      I’m off work and waiting on a furniture delivery. Have otherwise been in the office since the end of April. I live in Covid-denying state that is solid red except some blue parts of cities, and I just bought a condo in a city. When I first walked my dogs here Saturday, it was the first time in a very long time that I hadn’t done so in a veritable sea of Trump signs and full blown trump attitude. I’m so happy I can’t stand it. The purchase is a pre-retirement purchase and had been something I’d been contemplating for a while for the future, but I found a great deal now and took it. Being somewhere, even just on weekends for now, where I am not the weird liberal person is lovely. Also, I just like cities!

    • Leatty

      Yikes. Not a good day in my house – baby (who normally sleeps through the night) woke up twice during the night and needed to eat, preschooler woke up early and wouldn’t go back to her room then had multiple tantrums, mom is in the hospital, husband is recovering from surgery, work is crazy busy, and I am very much having a case of the Mondays.

    • Vicky Austin

      Yesterday evening I was not feeling optimistic. I think I overpromised on a work deadline, I have schoolwork coming out of my ears, and I have been having some super painful, very stubborn stomach issues all weekend.

      The first thing I did this morning was drop my toothbrush on the floor, toothpaste side down. I want a medal for making it to work on time after that!

    • TheElms

      We’re having some much needed electrical work done in the house. Its not ideal. We aren’t vaccinated yet but can’t really put off the work any longer (issue arose about a year ago and we kept delaying thinking it would get better). So it is us, the nanny, my toddler, the work crew, my freaked out pets, and all the banging/tearing open walls to get at the effected electrical lines. At some point we will lose power but mostly they can just turn off the specific circuit they are working on. Its going to take a week and work is super busy. (this was supposed to be a quiet week but something blew up in a matter unexpectedly). Ugh.

      • Cat

        Can you go into your office? Like – mine is closed, but you can get permission to go in as needed.

        • TheElms

          Yes, I could but that seems really hard on the nanny/husband to manage the freaked out pets and the toddler and the noise. My husband isn’t allowed to go into his office – there is no option for permission, they are just closed.

          • anon

            I’d board the pets during the day, let the nanny handle the kids, and go into the office.

          • No Face

            Fewer mammals in the house sounds like a good plan. Boarding the pets is a great idea for their sake and everyone else’s. Mom can work in the office. Nanny would probably rather help the toddler without mom hovering around. Husband can work in the quietest part of the house.

          • Anon

            If I was the husband, I’d also consider getting a hotel for a week to work out of, if you are at the “throw money at the problem” stage of life. I know this is not an option for everyone. I’m not saying he should be away from the home all week, just using the hotel all day and then coming home and doing his part in the home at night/overnight.

      • TheElms

        My dog is other dog selective so day care isn’t a great option for us. And I don’t think places really board cats or at least none near me do. Hadn’t thought about getting a hotel. Maybe if it stays loud after tomorrow we will and we could trade quiet days. I’ve been told after tomorrow it should be much less loud because they won’t be opening walls anymore. Fingers crossed.

    • JustmeintheSouth

      Hope to inspire others…I am having a great Monday. Got in a good 45 minute (at home) work out and am sipping coffee I love from nearby local shop. Working on project (from home) while intermittently cleaning my brother’s room. He is disabled and will be coming home for Easter—First time at home since Christmas 2019…I am so happy about this I guess today had to be a good day.

    • AnonATL

      I have a painful blackhead prominently on my cheek right in time for an important video call this afternoon. Going to have to break out the concealer for the first time in a couple months.
      Otherwise it’s a lovely day here with lots of sunshine.

    • NY CPA

      Feeling pretty good! Got my second dose of the Pfizer vaccine on Saturday. Had milder than expected side effects. And going on my first vacation since Oct 2019 this Thursday after a long slog of 65+ hour work weeks for months (I know I need to wait 2 weeks to be considered fully immunized, timing of trip is unrelated to vaccine). Just need to get myself to focus and push through the next 3 days and get through my current pile of work so I can truly disconnect!

    • Anon

      Yesterday’s weather was grim in my corner of the world. Usually I would take a gray and rainy day as permission to be a slug. Instead, I virtuously slogged through a sea of personal “desk” tasks. I feel quite virtuous as a result, and my momentum has carried forward to my Monday.

    • Anon

      That sounds terrible, I’m so sorry!

      My week is also off to a rough start. I developed some pretty gnarly sinus congestion last night, resulting in one of the worst earaches I’ve had in my adult life. It took me over an hour to get to sleep last night, and I decided to forgo my morning workout in favor of some extra sleep. I feel a little better this morning, especially now that I’ve taken Sudafed.

    • Curious

      Despite things in my life objectively being good I am staring at the abyss today. I hit my pandemic breaking point last week with one too many friend’s story of being back home and watching family die. And while I am glad for baby coming, even second trimester is pretty tiring.

    • Senior Attorney

      I only have to work two days this week so that’s something!

      Got up to a kitchen full of dirty dishes after an online cooking class last night that was fun but OMG literally dirtied every single dish in the house!! We filled the dishwasher and still had to go to bed with a mess left behind! And it must have weighed on my mind because I had stress dreams all night. So I hopped up at 6:30 and cleaned it up and now I feel better.

      In other news, a small but annoying taskI have been procrastinating on came back to bite me this morning and I am embarassed and rightfully so.

      But the weather is beautiful and I’m getting my second shot on Thursday so I’ll take it!

      • anon

        Ditto the “small but annoying task I have been procrastinating on came back to bite me this morning.” Glad I’m not the only one feeling this today!

    • Sloan Sabbith

      I didn’t get to sleep until 3:30 and have a 9:15 telehealth psychiatry appointment. Dragged myself out of bed at 8:55. My dad had a terrible weekend, capped off last night by telling us he just wants to die.

      So. Today is not great so far.

        • Sloan Sabbith

          Me last March, 25 days into isolation and miserable No year can ever be worse than 2020 is shaping up to be.
          2021: Hold my beer. Things can ALWAYS get worse.

      • Formerly Lilly

        I’m sorry. You’ve been getting more than your fair share of hard luck. Here’s some internet sympathy from someone whose mother had dementia for years, and not the “just getting vague and fuzzy” version. It’s so hard when a parent is in severe distress and you’re doing your best, and you’re doing all that you can do, but you wish there was something magical you could do to make it better. Hugs!

        • Sloan Sabbith

          I wish I could just make it better for him. He’s so unhappy.

          My grandma has dementia and the long slow decline is so tough. She’s started wandering in the last week, to really help an already difficult situation.

    • anon

      I had a planned screening mammogram and ultrasound which turned into a diagnostic one and OMFG did that hurt. They think everything is just tissue, thankfully. But one cluster of cysts was right up against my chest wall and the bottom of my b**b and holy heck. Thankful for good health insurance… that’s what I kept saying in my head as the tech tightened the damn plates.

  2. anon

    Any ideas for Spanish chapter books for someone to read to kids aged 6-8? Even translations of books with which I am familiar are hard to find. We’ve done James and the Giant Peach and Charlotte’s Web.

  3. Anonymous

    Beautiful dress, but at this price point I think it should be made from wool with a viscose lining, not polyester. I really like the colour and silhouette, though.

  4. Boden sizing?

    I will be heading back to the office in person in a few weeks and want to refresh my dress options. Boden patterns make me so happy and I hear the cuts are good for pears.

    If I am a small-chested pear, generally a 12 or 14 in J Crew, Ann Taylor, or Banana Republic tops, and solidly in a 14 curvy-cut on bottom (38 – 33 – 44), any advice on what size that translates to in Boden? Thanks!

      • TheElms

        I’m similar in size to you (I think 39, 32, 45) and agree with a 14. That said I don’t get anything that is a straight cut or a sheath type cut because I don’t think there is sufficient room in the hips. A-line works for me.

    • Cat

      FWIW I have found the Boden size charts to be extremely reliable. You could also order initially from a US department store (ex. Nordstrom carries) to get a sense of fit before committing to international ordering.

      Their dresses are too short-waisted for me most of the time, unfortunately.

      • Anon

        Yes, I was going to say the same. I use their measurement chart and it is spot on.

  5. Anonymous

    My microfiber tees were daily drivers under jackets in Before Times to the point of being on their last legs now. I need short sleeves and solid colors. Do these exist anymore? IMO cotton just doesn’t look polished enough. I am struggling to find a replacement.

    • Anonymous

      Of course they exist! But they’re usually sold as athletic wear?? I’m not seeing how they look polished for work.

      • Cat

        Doesn’t JCrew still sell these? The 365 stretch is designed to be a polished tee for under suiting.

        • Anonymous

          Yes they do- I never think of modal as microfiber? But if that’s what she’s looking for searching modal is more effective.

    • PolyD

      Banana Republic Factory has some luxe spun t-shirts that might work for you. Or maybe Macy’s?

    • Anonymous

      I stopped buying Splendid t-shirts because they switched from cotton to modal, so that’s one brand to try.

    • Anon

      Update to a blouse, a tshirt under a suit is a dated (and never was stylish) look.

      • Anon

        I feel that I like a plain tee-type top because it lets me wear patterned scarves. I love a blouse, but only when it is too hot/humid for a scarf. In the office, the scarf is needed for sitting under a draft and excess A/C, so I keep them handy now that I am heading back to the office.

    • anne-on

      Brooks Brothers is having their friends and family sale and has both silk and cotton/modal options for short sleeve shirts, I’d check there.

      • Senior Attorney

        Link in mod but I love the J Crew short sleeve silk blend crew neck sweater. It’s super lightweight and I have it in every color and wear it year round.

  6. Anonymous

    This dress doesn’t just have an exposed zipper, it has a full-length exposed zipper. Who is supposed to wear this dress? Perhaps the secretary of a James Bond villain?

    • Anonymous

      Or literally any woman who hasn’t made “committed to ten years old pearl clutching about modern style” her primary personality trait?

      • Anonymous

        “Pearl-clutching” aside, 1) who wants to sit on a zipper? and 2) who wants to spend $1400 on a dress that already looks dated because of said zipper?

        • Anon

          This is where I land. It’s just a bit of noise distracting from a lovely dress. For this much $, I don’t want the noise, I just want the dress.

      • Cat

        Now that you mention it, I think this look (the full length exposed zipper) is actually kind of dated. I don’t like it personally (not my style and the zipper is uncomfortable when seated) but thinking about it, can’t remember the last time I saw anyone wearing the look.

      • Anon

        It looks so cheap though. And I don’t think it looks good in a professional setting, and it’s way to conservative for social events

      • Anonymous

        Lol this level of hostility means that you own the dress and got offended that someone insulted it.

        • Anon

          eh, I’m with the commenter here. “OMG it has an exposed zipper” around here is up there with fleece tights. You don’t have to like the dress. But the horror at the idea of your zipper showing is getting really old. and PS I’m an Old.

    • Anon-

      Would 100% wear in my future career as Bond villain. I love the color and cut and the exposed zipper is just offensive enough.

  7. Anonymous

    Recommendations for sunscreen that doesn’t contain oxybenzone, octocrylene or octinoxate? Particularly one that’s good for sensitive skin since my face breaks out if I dare so much as look at new skin care products.

    • Cat

      ha, are you going to St. John? I so disliked the consistency of the sunscreens without these ingredients (“reef safe”) that I just wore rash guards and hats instead.

      • Anonymous

        I like Banana Boat Simply Protect, which is designated reef-safe and works for my sensitive skin. It contains octocrylene but not oxybenzone or octinoxate.

        I find that 100% mineral sunscreens don’t actually prevent sunburn.

      • Anonymous

        Yep. Finding a lot of the “reef-safe” sunscreens still have octocrylene. I may do ok with mineral sunscreens, but poor husband burns even with super strong chemical sunscreens. He’ll basically need a full-body rashguard (which I guess would just be a wetsuit…)

        • Cat

          Check out the St John Tripadvisor forums. They are always up to date with the latest recommendations. There is a store on-island that carries the most popular ones.

    • Digby

      Not sure if this meets your criteria, but I like the Coola mineral sun silk moisturizer spf 30 priming cream (or something like that – they have ridiculously long product names). It’s the one in a small jar/tub.

    • Anonymous

      I have 2 recs for you:
      Face – Dr. Jart’s BB beauty balm SPF 40. Expensive, but it works amazing for me. It can feel a little heavy but it kept me from sunburning at the beach and in a hot grassy field collecting soil samples in August heat.
      Body – Neutrogena Pure & Free Baby Sunscreen SPF 50. I haven’t had any issues with this, I’ve even used it for my face in a pinch, despite the whitish cast. If I’m hiking, I’d rather have the whitish cast and be protected than get a sunburn for the sake of vanity.

      I’m allergic to oxybenzone, octocrylene or octinoxate so I pretty much have to use mineral-based sunscreens if I want to do outdoor activities.

      • Anonymous

        Edited to add – Dr. Jart actually may not work for you, looks like the current formulation has octinoxate. Sorry! The Neutrogena one is solid though for day outside.

        I also tried Coola’s Rosilliance SPF 30 BB+ Cream but it needed a lot of reapplying in the hot South Carolina summer.

    • NYNY

      I like Sun Bum’s baby line of mineral sunscreen, which is fragrance-free. The face stick is really easy to reapply, which makes a difference for me. Please note, although none of their products have the other two, their chemical sunscreens do contain octocrylene, so be careful which version you choose.

    • BB

      Avene sunscreens. I think they are free of all those thing (they’re physical sunscreens) and they are good for sensitive skin.

      • Anon

        I’m not the OP but thanks for this. My face can only tolerate sunscreen that is majority zinc oxide based. I can’t use any cosmetics or moisturizers w/ SPF in them. I don’t just get zits, I get hives!

        If OP does not need reef safe and is just looking for a kind that is allergy friendly, I’ve had a lot of luck w/ Coppertone sensitive skin faces. It is mostly zinc oxide. It also has 7.5% oxtinoxate (which I know is on your no list) and 5% Octisalate which I did not see on your no list. The 7.5% must be low enough that I don’t have my usual allergic reaction.

        This does make your face super white but the white goes away in about 20 minutes so just put it on well before you leave the house . . . which is what you are supposed to do anyway.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks, everyone! As Cat guessed, it’s for a trip to St. John, and the US VI have banned sunscreens with those three ingredients specifically. I’ll take a look at these suggestions. And I’ll check out the tripadvisor forums.

    • Anon

      Sunscreen evangelist here, may I recommend Canmake UV Gel, which can be purchased on Am*zon. The filters used in Asian countries are much, much better in terms of protecting you and much more cosmetically elegant.

    • Anon

      Tinted: Ilia Serum Skin Tint
      Clear: Hynt Beauty Sun Prep or Kypris Pot of Shade (this one is more moisturizing)
      For body: Babo Botanicals Clear for Babies Fragrance Free Zinc Sunscreen Lotion

  8. Garment Bag Recommendations

    My sister has asked for a garment bag for a graduation gift. I’ve looked at lots of options online but can’t tell which styles are best (tri-fold vs bi-fold, carry on vs checked, etc.) and whether the expensive ones (e.g. Tumi, Briggs & Riley) are worth twice the money. She’s said carry-on would be preferred, wheeled version less important but nice. It should be able to carry a few suits and have a spot for a pair of shoes. So to all you former road-warriors out there: what garment bags do you have and would you recommend?

    • Cat

      Rule out the checked size because (1) she doesn’t want it, and (2) if she needs it for business travel, ain’t nobody got time for baggage claim anyway.

      I would vote yes to wheels because carrying a loaded garment bag around an airport is no fun.

      • Anon

        Yes, get wheels. If she is traveling for work, she will almost surely also be carrying a laptop at a minimum. It is not practical to carry a garment bag and a big shoulder bag or backpack with your computer around the airport long term. It’s just too much weight and will slow her down if she is traveling with male colleagues.

      • Garment Bag Recommendations

        For more info, she’s a military officer and looking for it to be carrying her formal uniforms. So carrying a laptop or lots of other things for carry-on is probably less of a concern, and she’ll likely check another bag anyways unless for very short trips.

        • anne-on

          I’m stuck in mod for the link, but I’d highly recommend the Tumi “Garment 4 Wheeled Carry-On”

    • anne-on

      I have this one and LOVE it. My husband hates it because he can’t fit his dress shoes in the front flap well (oh well, I travel WAY more than he does so who cares). I find the compartments on the top right and left are the perfect sizes for underwear/hosiery and I can fit a LOT in there – like I’ve done 5 day trips before. It definitely won’t fit in a puddle jumper but I haven’t had problems with it in Europe or the US otherwise.
      https://www.tumi.com/p/garment-4-wheeled-carry-on-01171501041/

      • Anonymous

        Ahaha! Puddle jumper! I never knew what those planes are called in English. Where I’m from it’s the planes for “the milk route”.

        If she does travel on smaller planes as well, OP, she’s better off with a duffel style carry-on garment bag for those rides, those are much easier to fit (both overhead and under the seat), regular carry-ons are too big.

        • anne-on

          Haha, there are definitely ‘milk trains’ in the US (the ones that run super early in the AM but I’ve never heard of milk planes before!)
          Fwiw, I LOVE the Lo & Sons small catalina for a weekend duffel – I can easily fit 2-3 days of stuff in there. If she’s going to be traveling with jackets have her practice some of the various men’s magazine tutorials for how to fold blazers for travel – I find popping the shoulders inside out and putting one arm through the other works well. I would also be shocked if the air stewards wouldn’t be willing to stash a dress jacket up in the first class closet for a member of the military.

  9. Anon

    Does anyone have recommendations for very long lasting eyeliner pencil?

    I currently use liquid eyeliner on my top lid, but I really look better tightligning my lower lid with pencil. However, I find that it tends to smudge / run and not hold up over a work day (I’m in person). My current liquid eyeliner is indestructible- I can work a full day, workout, rinse off, and meet friends for drinks and it looks perfect. I’m looking for something similar in pencil form (not gel, not pens, etc) Is there a long lasting pencil that you all recommend?

    • Anonymous

      Try an eyeshadow primer? I use good primer (Urban Decay) under any cheap pencil and it really does help.

      • Anon

        I don’t know if I would put primer on my waterline. She’s talking about tight lining.

        To OP avoid pencils that claim to be gel pencils. In my experience those are the smudgiest even though application is easy.

        I suggest Revlon Colorstay pencils.

    • Anon

      Marc Jacobs fineliner ultra skinny is my favorite (but I think it is a gel in a pencil form maybe?)

    • Anon

      The Milani Stay Put Eyeliner works super well. I tightline as well and never see any smudging except maybe by about 9pm or so (and not real smudging, just below the lash line). They have a waterproof version, but I don’t use that kind and it still stays put.

  10. Anon

    Zoom interview question: is it a major faux pas if my bed is visible in the background? There are other people in my house on zoom calls all day and the only place with a door I can close is my bedroom. My current desk set up has part of my bed in the background of the shot, and I haven’t really worried about in the past, but not sure if the standard for an interview is different? It’s in higher ed, so not a super formal field. It would be pretty difficult to come up with another configuration given the space and lighting, though I could probably move enough stuff around to get a blank wall behind me temporarily (would require moving desk into middle of room and some other furniture). I could also use a virtual background. Thoughts?

    • Velma

      Use blur or try a nice virtual background–an elegant office or conference room setting. I am in higher ed, and many faculty and staff use them.

      • Carrots

        Same – in non-profit and was on a panel for interviews at one point and I didn’t bat an eye at a bed in the background. But if you have the blur option, I’d go with that.

      • Senior Attorney

        Early in the pandemic I was on a Zoom call with the executive director of a multi-million dollar performing nonprofit and he was in his bedroom in front of the bed. I figure if he can do it, you can do it.

        • new yorker

          Just because someone else can do it though, doesn’t mean it’s a best practice, which would be my goal for an interview. And unfortunately the same rules don’t always apply to all people. I was on a zoom call with a bunch of lawyers including a young woman with a bed in her background. After, one of the senior male lawyers told me he found it distracting. Is that on him? Sure. But would I do it for an interview? No.

          • Senior Attorney

            Yeah, good point. I think the blur background is probably the way to go.

          • joan wilder

            Feeling irrationally angry at the senior male lawyer who managed to be distracted by a young woman’s bed in the background of a work call. Talk about pearl clutching. Unless the bed was in any kind of active use , it is like any other piece of furniture.

          • Anonymous

            I get distracted by beds in the background, too. To be honest, I get distracted by all sorts of home interior elements.

            The fact that I notice, don’t mean that I think badly of the person – but yes, the distraction is real. So for a job interview, I would find it a lot easier to concentrate on the person if the background is as neutral as possible – and that means no bed, or spinning bike, or mirrors.

            I am however a person who notices things. At the office, I’m the person who will notice that you had your hair done during lunch hour, changed your perfume, are straining slightly from jogging too much or seem to be disappearing into store rooms with colleague B during office parties.

            Lots and lots of people would never notice any of these things, but I can’t help it, I do. And if you’re on zoom I’ll notice the decorating style, color choices, artwork, likely age and style of building, clutter, plants, background noise and office setup. I find those things interesting – but hopefully not more interesting than the person talking…

    • Anon

      Most people won’t care but some will find it really unprofessional, so if you have another option I’d probably take it

    • Of Counsel

      A lot of my video calls are with the court and I did not want my bed in the background so I bought a 4 panel shoji screen for around $100 and it fixed the problem. It also had the advantage of being portable and easy to fold up and put away when I do not need it.

    • Trixie

      I would not have the bed in the background for an interview. It is just not professional and polished enough. Can you turn your desk for this interview? Or blur the background, or trade rooms with someone for the interview.

  11. Anonymous

    Taxy/finance people- are there ever reasons to file taxes married filing separately? DH and I normally make about the same, but this year due to the pandemic impacting my business and DH’s company selling, his income is 6x mine. Mine is low enough income wise to qualify for a bunch of stuff we never would together. We have 3 kids.

    I am going to run it through our tax software but if the answer is OBVIOULSY NO, NEVER, then I won’t even bother because it’ll take an hour or so to set it up. If the answer is “well yeah maybe, you’ll have to check” then of course I will.

    Thanks so much!

      • Anon

        I highly doubt you can qualify for those tax breaks as married filling separate, nor do I think you should be allowed to.

    • Anom

      According to my law school tax prof, the only advantage to married people filing separately is so that one spouse can claim ignorance of the other’s tax fraud because they didn’t sign the same return.

      This is not actual tax advice, but it was such a great memory of my tax law prof.

      • Anon

        Our tax preparer told us that we might want to consider filing separately in the future, since we are in a draconian filial responsibility state and my in-laws are an irresponsible dumpster fire. I am not putting off my retirement to fund their spendthrift ways.

        • Anon

          What? What does your taxes have to do with that? Wouldn’t you want to do everything jointly to thwart single-spouse creditors? Tenancy by the entirety for the win!

      • TheElms

        With the increasing emphasis on equal pay, do you think there will ever be any appetite for revising the tax code to eliminate/lessen the marriage penalty? It is so significant for my husband and I that we have jokingly discussed getting divorced.

        • Anon

          The marriage penalty was really reduced in the TCJA, so it’s waaaay better than they used to be.

          It comes from how in the West and places with community property, one spouse owns 1/2 of the income of the other spouse (and vice-versa), and this puts all US taxpayers on even footing with tax man on a household income basis (unless you opt in to MJS).

          So until every state gets rid of community property (not going to happen), this is where we are.

        • Anonymous

          No. If you don’t want to be treated like married people with the benefits of pooled assets do t get married. It’s not a penalty.

          • TheElms

            What benefits of pooled assets are you talking about? Genuinely curious as I don’t understand this at all. I’ve only seen the increased tax bill since getting married. Now I wonder if there is something I’m missing on my taxes that I could be taking advantage of?

          • Anon

            Not prior posting, but I assume she means the benefits of splitting expenses like rent or a mortgage, internet, utilities. As some one who has spent large parts of my adult life both single and partnered, I strongly believe there are huge cost savings of being partnered

        • Anon

          The employment rate for women in the US has never been over 60%. If you look at women between the ages of 25-54, 76% work but that doesn’t take in to account that many of those people are working part time. I don’t see them doing anything to get rid of it completely given that in many communities it is still common to have a SAHM or work very part-time.

      • Anon

        I think it’s actually the opposite of the marriage penalty. Like the poster above says, it was greatly reduced, but you usually get a marriage bonus when one spouse makes much more than the other, like OP describes. Obviously it’s different if your total income disqualifies you for some other thing, like the stimulus or health care subsidies, but filing separately doesn’t usually allow that.

        • Anonymous

          Yup OP here and I did enough playing to determine that there is no obvious benefit and it’s a lot more work for MFS than MFJ. I think we are probably better off MFJ anyway and at best it’s ~1k different so not worth the time to really find out. I qualify for stimulus payments with my income alone, and no taxes on unemployment, etc., but it’s offset by the other credits neither of us can take.

          I strongly suspected that to be the case but felt like I needed to do cursory due dilligence.

    • NY CPA

      I’m the wrong kind of CPA for this, but my recollection from tax classes in college was that it matters when you can’t take full advantage of certain deductions and credits on your own so your spouse would get to take their portion + whatever you can’t personally use. So to use a very simple example, let’s say you earn $10K and your spouse earns $20K. Your income is less than the standard deduction so you aren’t taking the full standard deduction ($10K for you + $12.5K for your husband = $22.5K), but if you file together, together you can take 2x full standard deduction ($24.5K). I think other examples would be limits on medical expense deductions, charitable donations, etc.

      @CPA Lady or others, want to weigh in here?

    • CPA Lady

      Generally speaking its almost always better to file joint.

      You either will both have to itemize (with your deductions split between the two of you) or both take half the married standard deduction.

      A lot of credits are not available or are reduced MFS.

      Main reason we generally advise people to MFJ, is that the IRS is that it’s easy to screw up MFS and the IRS is also very easily confused and they are likely to send you notices, and that’s a massive headache to deal with.

      I’m not saying its not worth looking into, just that you’re going to need to save a massive amount of money for it to be worth it.

      • Anonymous

        That’s exactly where I landed after running a few quick numbers. I feel like I’ve done enough homework to stick with MFJ.

    • Anonymous

      One of the big breaks is for medical expenses >10% of your income – many spouses with disparate medical expenses file separately because one spouse may have little or no income and a lot of expenses.

    • Anon

      We file separately for income-based student loans reasons, but other than that, I’m not sure there are any benefits. There are a lot of downsides, and if I would have thought about it more, I would have put off marriage until my loans were forgiven (PSLF).

  12. anonymousforthisone

    Irked about a situation and need to vent. Can’t really get into specifics for fear of outing myself but long story short – husband has two siblings, A and B. Husband had a conversation with A in which he casually mentioned something I had said that concerned B that I had seen on social media. (Think of something as innocuous as “oh, my wife said she saw that B went to that new restaurant downtown, how did she like it?”) A subsequently called B and lied to B that both husband and I were trash-talking B, and wildly exaggerated the statement. (Think of the above statement now morphing into something as wild and unreal as “my wife said she saw pictures of B participating in the Capitol riot.” ) B called and screamed how we (husband and I) were both trash-talking her around the entire family and stalking them on social media and hung up. I wasn’t even present for the initial conversation with A and I was completely blindsided. Husband calmly sent an email to B laying out the facts, copying A, saying — we did not do what we are accused of, the original comment was innocuous and A knows this, A is lying and until A comes clean and apologizes, I’m having nothing to do with A; I’d like to make things better, ball is in your court. A is doubling down that A has nothing to apologize for, and B is doubling down on believing A over husband. Husband is really hurt and depressed that his siblings are acting this way and I don’t know how to console him, but he is steadfast in that he will not apologize for things he or I didn’t do and the truth is the truth. I don’t come from a background where siblings scream at one another or refuse to talk to one another or slam down the phone. I welcome any words of wisdom; I know that “when people show you who they are, believe them” but I’m hurt too.

    • anon

      Sounds like a great opportunity to take a big step back from both of these awful people. Your husband doesn’t have to tolerate abuse just because they share DNA.

    • Anonymous

      This is…a whole lot of family llama drama. I have two siblings and we don’t ever talk on the phone, slam them down (who uses a slammable phone now??), talk about each other to other family members, email each other, etc.

      We text each other cat memes and gift ideas for our respective children on holidays and make snarky jokes when one of our parents does something Old and Silly. FWIW we are all in our 30s (with me pushing 40).

    • Senior Attorney

      Good Lord this is just crazy and I would not get involved in it at all other than to say “y’all are crazy — that didn’t happen and I’m not going to dignify it with any further response.” Which sounds pretty much like what your husband is doing.

      Ugh, I’m sorry.

    • Anonymous

      Sorry I feel for you but none of this makes sense and I don’t think you’re sharing all the relevant details. Which is fine! But then I don’t think we can accurately assess.

    • Cat

      Is it possible that in your family dynamics, the seemingly innocuous question can go sideways? Like if your in-laws are less Covid cautious, they could hear a question about an activity as you judging them for doing it.

      • Anonymous

        And like why is wife telling husband a thing about b and then husband telling it to A anyway?

      • Anon

        This was what I immediately wondered, if the example given is close to what the real statement was about. Doesn’t make the situation less sucky, but at least makes a little more sense than a totally out of the blue crazy?

    • Anon

      So I feel like there is a lot missing here. Either details on the statement and it was perhaps less innocuous than it seems, or – details of the relationship and A has some reason to lie. My advice would be very different based on if its the former ir he latter…

    • pugsnbourbon

      Sorry – some families just have this dynamic. My mother’s siblings don’t scream, but the gossip and snide emails get really bad from time to time. I hate seeing my mom get sucked into it. Try to stay out of it as much as you can.

      • Anon

        +1. Some families hang up on each other, twist facts, do name-calling, etc. It sucks and you have my sympathy. In general, live your life and don’t engage with the crazy. My in-laws are dysfunctional like that, and I am so thankful that my wife did a lot of therapy and got herself out of that toxic mess.

  13. Anonymous

    Anyone else have the experience of being raised by parents who were relatively normal and progressive when you were growing up and have now turned SO old fashioned that it’s kind of painful to talk to them? I don’t mean politics at all I mean when you were growing up believing things like a good education and career was just as important for women as for men (even if others around them DID make statements back then about why are you spending so much money/time/effort for a daughter’s education etc.). And now it’s like you accomplished all that who cares, you’re not a wife and/or mom. Or you’re not a traditional 1950s wife and/or mom. Or just olden views like oh there should be secure apartment buildings (i.e. dorms) for single women to live in who don’t have a husband to protect them and no males should be allowed in said dorms. Uh we’re talking 40 year old women who are crushing it as attorneys or surgeons or whatever but oh no it’s sooo unsafe for them in the world to own their own house ALONE and heavens they should live some place with just women until a husband comes along (uh so I guess no bringing dates home, ever)?? I mean I’m exaggerating a bit but they truly do believe that a single women shouldn’t own a house alone or go on vacation alone. If that means you never marry and your friends all do — oh well, live in a 1 bedroom and don’t go on vacations because you won’t have girlfriends to go with since they’ll go with their families. It’s like oh wow so now I see how you really are, all that talk re you thinking daughters could be successful and independent was kind of just talk . . . Anyone else?

    • anonshmanon

      I don’t feel this way with parents, but with the world in general. As a girl and teen, the constant drumbeat was that you can do anything you set your mind to, girl power and that sort of thing. Growing up, I am more aware of the structural barriers that still push women towards certain roles. I don’t know if it was always there and I just didn’t see it growing up, or if an overly rosy picture is being broadcast to young girls in general, or if the whole girl power thing was especially big in my time growing up and we are returning to some kind of baseline.

      • anon

        I feel this way, too. My parents aren’t quite as extreme as the OP’s, but they still hold some very traditional gender values. Like it’s fine for women to have careers and stuff, but you’d better be keeping the house up, too, and I totally got the stink eye from my mom for bringing a pre-packaged dessert to a family meal one week when I just Could Not muster the energy to bake something.

        But yeah, the whole Girl Power thing totally backfired. It gave me an overly rosy outlook about what it would be like to be an adult woman in this society.

        • anon

          I read in ‘Think like a Feminist” by Carol Hay that girl power is basically worthless when it comes to actually changing the patriarchal structures and thought processes being discussed by OP and others here. As a concept and inspiration it is not completely without worth, but it’s infantilizing for women, and usually translates into consumerism without real changes or increasing opportunity for most women. Think of all the merchandise and endless advertisement opportunity girl power has. If I recall correctly, the author pointed out that those people who embrace raising children with the girl power attitude, and praise their daughter’s spunk and independence also admit that’s not a quality they value in a full grown woman.

          • Anon

            I think you hit the nail on the head…at least in thinking of some of my friends – incredibly smart, talented women who, for whatever reason, have a challenge with relationships, and who, in some cases, have cheated on their partners or had affairs with married men. Perhaps their parents raised them with independent, fearless qualities that others celebrated – a “precocious young child” – to your point about infantilizing, they were enabled to think the world was their oyster, but was also there to serve them – which turn into an overbearing, immature, selfish, unbridled, no holds barred ambition as an adult. And then the parents lament that their daughters don’t enjoy happy, fulfilling relationships.

        • Ribena

          My all girls high school totally did this too. There was one year they gave the final year students personal alarms with their exam results… as if that sort of violence couldn’t possibly have hurt them in our safe small town.

      • anne-on

        Yup, but oddly they’d like to have it both ways? Like my closest aunt/uncle definitely raised their girls more ‘traditionally’ and my cousins are in typical pink collar jobs. My parents LOVE to brag about how *they* didn’t do that and how great it is that I have a job at a brand name company…but then also guilt me to no end about my work travel/kid being in daycare/having sitters and au pairs/etc. Can’t win for losing.
        I also totally identify with the posters who’ve stepped back their relationships with parents. I just refuse to take the guilt/derision and keep our relationship surface level nice because of that (cards/calls/visits on a semi-regular basis but I won’t call just to chat for example).

    • good luck

      Well, my parents were super liberal, and never ever made me feel like I was less than successful for pursing my education and career dreams. They never thought it was odd to live alone, or discouraged trips by myself, although my Mom may have worried more about safety issues and asked more questions about that. And I have to admit, I have had my living spaces broken into twice by intruders (including once when I was home alone in bed asleep)) and was sexually assaulted in the middle of the day after being dragged into an alley in a “safe” suburb. So things happen….

      And then my father in a fit called me “f*cked up” and a loser for not having a family or children, which was so terrible….

      So sometimes you never know how people feel, even those close to you. Some are just better at hiding it.

    • Anon

      Honestly, I think we both overestimate how progressive our parents used to be (just because they want the best for their child doesn’t think they want the same for greater society) and we often look at their views from present day comparison whereas they might be stuck in the progressiveness of their early adulthood.

      Also most of the stuff you mentioned relates to safety. Sounds like they overestimate how dangerous a regular day is for the average american woman and so have defaulted to pearl clutching over your physical safety.

      Don’t take it personally so long as they aren’t spewing hate.

    • Anonymous

      Honestly I think 99% of even the most open minded people appreciate female success to a level but if/when that becomes more important than or prevents the “traditional” female roles of wife/mother, they give sideways looks about that — like you’re inherently unloved, unloveable, something is wrong with you for not wanting or having babies etc. I’ve found this to be true time and time again with people who otherwise talk a good game re huge career success — like it doesn’t count for a woman unless she has a husband an baby on top of said career success. Yet it’s a rare person that says that about a man. I mean I know men who never married or married and divorced multiple times, had no kids or have no relationship with their kids because they were off pursuing being the best cardiac surgeon in the world and it’s like OMG he’s SUCH a genius, SUCH a hard worker; we need more people like that; his talent is god given blah blah. Never does anyone say — yeah but he must be lonely; he has no one to share it with; does success mean anything without family blah blah — all things I’ve heard said about successful women (by both men and women and not even necessarily older old fashioned people, I’m talking people in their 40s and 50s).

    • Anon

      A little bit. Growing up, my mom emphases that I could be anything I wanted when I grew up and she is proud that I’m an attorney. But it has become very clear that she is disappointed that I don’t have kids yet … which is great for me, since it is something I’m also sad about. She doesn’t care whether I have a husband, but really, really wants me to have a kid and it is clear that nothing i’m going to do professionally will ever live up to reproducing in her views. On one hand, I kind of get it since I also want kids. On the other, I want to scream every time she brings it up.

    • anon

      Oh my gosh, yes. But it’s not just my parents who are fixated on my failure to become a wife/mom. My friends (who would all describe themselves as feminists) probably couldn’t tell you where I went to school, what I do for work, or when I bought my first home but could definitely name the last few guys I dated.

      • Anon

        Wow! I can’t believe your friends are like this. I could name all of those things for my friends, except (1) where a few of them went to grad school because it was before we meet, they are in different fields, and it never comes up, and (2) the names of the last few guys they have dates, unless it was very serious so that I saw him many times.

    • Anon

      I get this dichotomy with my in-laws. Mother-in-law was religious SAHM, but they’re environmentally conscious and their grown children are extremely independent. But the mother-in-law and daughter seem to revert to the 1950’s when they are my houseguests, not helping much, expecting to be served…looking down at makeup…maybe stemming from a generational thing, maybe just…bad manners/casual.

    • Anon

      Not to that extreme, but my parents really pushed me to have a good education and career. Now they seem disappointed that I have a great career instead of spending my time getting married and having kids. The tides turned when I turned 30, but whatever.

    • Anon

      My mom is dead now but she never stopped feeling like unmarried women were sad failures, even (especially) women who were absolutely crushing it in their careers. She wanted to talk about my friends and which ones “couldn’t find a man” even though most of those friends had been in long term relationships or even marriages that they had gotten out of by their own choices. (And then it turned into “couldn’t keep a man.”)

      I think part of it was that my mom was widowed relatively young and went immediately into a long term relationship that ended not by her choice. She was so sad about both of these that she felt anyone who was, like her, without a partner must be equally sad.

      It depressed me because hearing her trash my friends about “choosing career over marriage” (that’s not what they were doing) probably meant that she didn’t see much value in my own career, which I worked very hard for and was proud of.

      Ah well, I couldn’t change her. I mostly changed the subject.

      • Anon

        I am so lucky. When I was mid-thirties and single, my mother told me that she understood that part of why I had never married was because I had such a wonderful life: that I had so much to lose (in terms of my quality of life and happiness). She also encouraged me that if I wanted to be a mother, I could do that, married or not, that the decision was mine and not anyone else’s decision to make. She was an awesome mother and role model and I miss her enormously.

    • Anonymous

      I’m 37 and my mom still reacts to the idea of me meeting a boy (yes boy not man) and having babies as if I’m 13. I’m going to ruin my life and end my career by having babies “so young.” But also as a single woman, I shouldn’t even think about buying a SFH because those are for families, I should live in a rented apartment with a guard and gate and a security system, I shouldn’t exist in the world after dark, and I definitely should never travel anywhere alone even for work – I should ask my male colleagues to accompany me everywhere I go.

    • AnonDC

      My experience was somewhat similar. My parents were very progressive about me (their only child), focused on my achievements and put a lot of time and resources into my education, and definitely taught me that the sky was the limit. In fact my 82 year old dad still comments on how annoying he found it that his siblings and siblings-in-law always wanted to know whether I had a boyfriend, etc., in college, when in his view ‘the only thing that mattered is that you were happy and had good grades and were going to (top 3) law school.’ BUT once I got married and had a kid, my mom started making very traditional gender comments to/about my (admittedly brash and sassy) daughter, like “you should be feminine and delicate like a little young lady,” and “you shouldn’t be so loud, because you’re a little lady,” etc. I chose to chalk it up to cognitive decline, as she was later diagnosed with dementia, but it made me think perhaps she had been suppressing these thoughts all along and just lost the filter with age. Which is odd because she worked and met my dad in college and they always seemed like equals in their marriage. Maybe her ideal was to have career success but still meet other traditional gender roles, like that old song “I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and never..let you forget you’re a man..?”

      Once I reached teen years, I became more distant from aunts and uncles on my dad’s side because they I felt like they didn’t “get” me because I didn’t fit their traditional expectations. My female cousins whose parents focused on the dating/marriage/babies concept of success live in a totally different world than I do, as most of them dropped out of college and married/dated men with little to offer, and have moved down the social ladder from middle class to borderline poverty. So maybe I’m just extra grateful for my dad truly believing that the gender stuff was all bunk?

  14. Anonymous

    Any tips for not comparing yourself to others? I’m not talking about acquaintances I see on Instagram, but my actual friends/family/etc. I had a serious illness that took two years of my early 30s to resolve, and caused fertility issues. As a result, my life is not where I thought it would be (and I likely will never have kids) and I feel like I’m stuck in my 20s and will never catch up to my friends.

    I find it hard to get out of the cycle of comparing myself to them. The common advice is to remind yourself that you don’t know what others are going through…but these are my closest friends and I do actually know what they are going through, so that’s not a helpful trick here. I basically feel like my friends look at my life and think it’s sad, which isn’t a good feeling, but also my life is kind of sad (or at least I am sad), so it’s not wrong.

    • amberwitch

      I know this might sound silly, but I would think that if you could take pride in surviving/dealing with your illness, and not letting it derail your life, it might be easier? Kind of appreciating how far you’ve come in the face of adversity?

      I am grateful, on a daily basis, for my life, and proud that I made it to where I am despite some pretty bad moments (loss, mental health) that delayed my entering the workforce to basically the end of my 20’s. I could be disappointed with myself, but instead I chose to take pride in myself.

      • Anonymous

        Along those lines, you may find help and friendships among those with the same or similar diagnosis/treatment that you had.

    • Anon

      First, I would figure out if you actually want the life your friends are living. If you don’t, there’s a lot of freedom that comes with that knowledge. If you do, it’s tough not to compare so I’d just acknowledge that to yourself and know you have had other health issues going on. I don’t think the “invent the tragedy someone else is dealing with” advice is good at all – life isn’t fair, sometimes things come easier to some more than others. Part of growing up is learning this and accepting it and making the best of the hand you’re dealt.

    • Anon

      Sounds like you have a lot of fear or shame about what other people think of you – that’s worth exploring in therapy or otherwise. I am sure your friends wish they could take away the challenges you’ve had, but if they are good people that doesn’t mean they think your life is sad or that you are less than them. The question is how do you feel about your life and how do you move forward in a positive way from where you are now?

    • Anon

      I’m in a somewhat similar situation, still dealing with a chronic illness that really affects every aspect of my life, changing my career goals and making it pretty unmanageable to have kids, though I never had a really strong desire to have them anyway. It kind of kills me every time I hear someone rant about selfish people with no kids who are living it up during the pandemic or otherwise gallivanting freely around the world. I’m not able to do either of those things and there will be no getting back to normal when the pandemic ends, because my normal is awfully close to pandemic life. I’m not sure there is great advice here, because it’s just a hard situation. I think all you can do is make the best of the life you do have and take pride in your ability to survive tough things. At least in my case, it’s increased my empathy and made me better at finding creative work arounds (though I don’t like to take this line of reasoning too far, since I was already pretty empathic and creative, I’d rather just be healthy!). Sympathy and best of luck to you.

    • Anon

      I’m also infertile instead of viewing myself as stuck in my 20’s, I view myself more as fast forwarded to my 50’s. We are living the life that people live once their kids leave the nest. I have money I didn’t have in my 20’s. I don’t (usually) want to party the way I did in my 20’s. Hope that helps!

    • Senior Attorney

      I don’t know if this helps, but life is long (if you’re lucky) and it has good parts and bad parts, and one thing I’ve learned is that neither the good parts nor the bad parts are permanent. Right now you are in a not-great stage and your friends are maybe in a better stage, and that’s hard but it’s not permanent.

      This was really brought home to me looking at my sweet husband and one of his closest friends: Years ago Friend seemed to have a perfect life and Hubby’s life seemed sad by comparison, and now the tables have turned. (I’ll spare you the details but they would make your hair stand on end.) The lesson I have taken from that is “enjoy the good parts and remember the bad parts aren’t forever, either.”

    • Anon

      In a similar boat, and I tell myself that we all have different lessons to learn for our lives. What matters at the end of my life is whether I have learned those lessons and become a better person.

  15. anon

    I have always been relatively frugal and a decent money manager, but I am looking for more ways to save money. What are changes you’ve made that made a big difference/you’d suggest? Pandemic/market has me feeling poor. I realize I’m not actually by a long shot, but still help is appreciated.

    • Curious

      Asking quickly: this is how my anxiety manifests. Could that be true for you?

      I like saving money by getting things on Buy Nothing.

      • anon

        Yes it’s true for me re: Anxiety. I feel a loss of control right now, and it’s never really a bad thing to curb spending so seems like a healthy enough outlet.

        Buy Nothing is totally new to me. Thanks for that!

        • Anonymous

          If this is an anxiety symptom, no budget cuts you make will ever be enough. You need to deal with the underlying issue.

    • Anonymous

      We contacted our car insurance to get a lower rate after the pandemic started since we’re driving so much less. We have excellent credit card rewards and can often get flights for free. We also just don’t buy much “stuff” and that by far makes the biggest difference (it was death by a thousand paper cuts for me before with random Amazon purchases). I still wear clothes I had in high school, I keep my athletic gear for a really long time, and I don’t wear make-up. I also don’t spend money on things like facials, blowouts, etc (with the exception of very occasional massages), which saves a few thousand per year compared to my friends.

    • good luck

      I always feel a bit better when I change something that has set monthly costs. Sometimes its small like getting an inexpensive phone plan, or cheaper auto insurance from Geico, or calling AT&T to push them to lower my monthly charge for internet.

      But the big ones of course are where you live and how you get to work. So I try to live as close to work as I can in a neighborhood I like in an affordable apartment that I scour the streets for to get the best deal. I literally walk the streets looking for “For Rent” sign, talk to doormen to ask about apartment availability, or say hello to neighbors and ask about the area and see if they have recs. Saving time by getting to work cheaply and quickly is one of the most valuable investments in yourself, your sanity, your life that you can make.

      And never buy a car except for cash, that you can afford. Never monthly payments. Never buy new.

      I have the same Pandemic/market anxiety making me feel poor, particularly since I have a lot of my $ in cash and not in the market so I am not realizing these gains (that I worry will dissolve soon).

    • Anon

      Without knowing what you are already doing, I’m petty uptight about my money management and here are a few general things I do:
      1) I take advantage of the savings programs that I can have auto deducted from my paycheck as much as possible. (401K etc.)
      2) My situation is now complicated, but when it was simpler I had my paycheck auto deposited into my saving account that I had no atm or easy spending access to. I then had a fairly detailed budget to determine what I could transfer to my checking account to actually spend every paycheck period vs. what should just stay in the savings (or moved to an investment account). Alternatively you could have it put in your checking and actively move some over to your savings (or investment account) every paycheck, but to me doing the opposite forces the action more because I needed to go in every paycheck or I wouldn’t have access to money, vs I could see getting lazy about actively just moving money TO savings (instead of from).
      3) This all resulted in a certain amount of fun money I had available to spend in my checking acct every couple of weeks. I actively do the true up math every paycheck including credit card spend (which I pay off every paycheck as part of this budget process) to see if I have “overspent”. If I’ve gone over, I just know I need to tighten up things, but I don’t have hard fast rules about where/how. If “overspending” keeps happening, it’s more likely my budget is unrealistic and I need to adjust lower what I keep in the savings.

      I realize a lot of this takes frequent oversight that many just do not have the time or desire to do, in which case something simpler is better. It works for me though.

      4) Investing in some form. Obviously details will be very individual specific, but just definitely don’t be shy or afraid of it.

    • Anonymous

      This is not about saving money, but about feeling poor. DH and I make very good money, but we don’t have a giant cash pile and we felt…well, poor is the wrong word but we felt poor relative to our incomes. We made over $200k and were still keeping a close eye on grocery bills and moving money around to make credit card payments (meaning paying off in full each month), for example.

      I started tracking our net worth in 2016 and it was the best thing I ever did. I started out doing it monthly and as life got more complicated it’s now more like quarterly-ish. But I can see that in 2015 we had a net worth of $400k and six years later it’s nearly $1.5M. Our main bank accounts don’t really look much different, but our retirement accounts are full, our kids’ 529s are sizeable, we have a lot of home equity, our student loans and cars are paid off, etc.

      • Anon

        If you increased your net worth by a million dollars in 5-6 years, you are astonishing. Have you had an increase in income from the combined $200k you mentioned? I cannot see any other way you could have done this, even living very frugally. How did you achieve this?

        • Anonymous

          Hi- I posted above. We make more like $320k now on average, but it varies and has varied over the years. I think the biggest things are compound interest. It scales quickly- it took us most of that time to get to $1M and getting from $1M to 1.5 has been much quicker.

          I actually just looked at my spreadsheet and it turns out I started it in late 2013 right when we had our first kid. Back then we were at a net worth of $120k and made a combined $180k. In 2/2016 it was $450k. So, maybe we are good at saving and bad at remembering :).

          We did sell a house in that timeframe with a cap gain of $75k, and while the net worth was only 120k back in 2013 it looks like we had $180k of retirement assets already saved. We max that out annually and it compounds. We have most of it in SWPXX which is up 200% since 2013.

      • Anon

        And my previous response is not meant to be accusatory or to undermine your tremendous accomplishment. I want to replicate this, so your roadmap would be great.

        • Anon

          Not OP, but our net worth has gone from 100k to over a million in the last 8 years, and we’ve made between $100k and $150k per year over that time, so that sounds reasonable for someone with higher income and more to start with. The stock market has gone way, way up since 2008, which makes a huge difference. We live very frugally and take major advantage of pretax retirement savings (we both work for the state, so we each have 401a, 403b, and 457b we can contribute to, plus Roth IRAs). We track all spending and net worth monthly, which helps motivate us to save, not spend. Moving four times during those years also really discourages buying more stuff- I will say that the time we lived in a MCOL area helped, but we’re back in a VHCOL area and continuing to save a reasonable amount by being willing to rent an outdated, modest condo instead of someplace nicer. We rarely eat out, even pre-pandemic, I rarely do makeup or spend much on haircuts, color, nails, etc. Basically, the default option is not to buy things, unless we feel we really need them, but then we do, without too much stress (I don’t feel deprived). I recognize a lot of privilege that makes this possible, but given the salaries on this board, it’s definitely doable. I know it helps that we don’t have kids, though I have a chronic illness that limits the type of work I can do and may ultimately prevent me from working completely, a further motivation to save now and makes a lot of fun stuff like travel hard to do anyway. I do find it incredibly problematic how much of our wealth growth is from stock growth, at the expense of workers that work at most of those companies.

    • No Problem

      Agree above re: getting a new quote for your car insurance, and checking out various buy nothing or buy/sell/trade groups local to you. Other ideas: use all the coupon/cash back apps and websites (Ibotta for groceries, Rakuten (used to be Ebates) for other online purchases), sell stuff on Poshmark, shop at consignment and thrift stores for “new” clothing, check out thrift stores, flea markets, Craigslist, and Facebook marketplace for household goods, etc. Honestly the biggest impact to my budget in these days of WFH is food – I can spend $60-80 a week on groceries, or I can blow $20/meal or more ordering takeout. The months when I reduce the takeout, I spend far less.

    • anon

      The most straightforward way to save money is with big lifestyle choices–where you live, how big your home is, your transportation, whether you have pets, whether you have children, etc. Those things are either difficult or impossible to change after the fact, though.

      Mid-tier ways to save–Do your own cleaning, yardwork, meal prep, and minor, non-electrical home repairs as much as possible. Comparison shop on insurance prices every few years, or use an insurance broker.

      For smaller ways to save money–Examine your recurring subscriptions and eliminate anything you don’t use. Pay attention to when a bill creeps up, and call and ask for your previous rate. Keep an eye on your spending habits and take steps to curb spending that stems from negative feelings (bored shopping, etc. Save money on groceries by reducing meat and processed foods. Change phone carriers every couple of years and take advantage of promotions they offer. Only buy new toiletries or makeup when you’ve used up a previous product.

      Not really savings, but I have a no-fee credit card with 2% cash back on everything. The 2% gets auto-deposited into a separate account, so it’s automatic “savings.” I pay all our bills with that credit card, so it really adds up.

    • Anon

      Can you look for a job the pays more money? Just throwing it out there because I feel like this half of the equation is often overlooked in these types of discussions.

    • anon a mouse

      Sometimes I set a very low grocery budget (like $25 for the week) to only buy produce and dairy, and then challenge myself to eat only out of my pantry and freezer. I don’t do it to save money but more to force myself to eat the things I’ve stockpiled and keep my cabinets freshened.

      Separately, I have found enormous joy in giving a lot of stuff away on my local Buy Nothing group. And something about the act of going through my things and finding things that I no longer need makes me appreciate that I really do have everything I need — more of a material things security blanket, if you will. I remind myself that enough is plenty, too much is just wasteful.

      • Anon

        +1 – I love doing these two things for the same reasons.

        Additionally, OP, maybe a financial challenge would be a fun thing to do? Michelle Singletary has a financial fast that could work, even if those goals may not be what you need

    • Anon

      I quit alcohol due to GERD and wow does that save a pretty penny–not even drinking out on the town, just in keeping a stocked home bar.

    • Anonymous

      When I want to know how I’m spending and saving in detail, I take the time to monitor all spending as well as setting up a fresh zero sum budget. I like to use excel, but pen and paper would work as well.

      I really like a detailed zero sum budget with columns for a monthly template budget, a specific-to-this-month budget, and a what-really-happened/accounts column. Income, saving (or investing) and spending (divided in detail, both regular bills and “pocket money”).

      In addition I like to set savings goals for the money budgeted to savings, both long-term, emergency funds, and sinking funds for things like travel, home improvements, shopping, transport, self-care etc. So that savings are also allocated.

      I find seeing in detail how my expectations of how I spend and the reality is a good way to feel more in control of my finances, and it’s a good way to change course if I have started overspending on something.

  16. NYNY

    RIP Beverly Cleary. I was surprised to cry a little when I saw that she had died. I read her books a loooooong time ago, in the mid-70s – and didn’t realize what an impression they had made.

    • anon

      I loved her books as a kid. It made such an impression that Ramona was allowed to be a spunky little girl, sad as that might sound.

    • Anonymous

      I saw that over the weekend and was sad…and then saw she lived to 104. WOW. My middle child *is* a modern day Ramona Quimby so we know the books well in this house.

    • Senior Attorney

      I read her books in the 60s! One of the first books I remember reading by myself was Henry and the Paper Route! RIP Beverly Cleary!

    • Vicky Austin

      RIP – another wonderful childhood author! I might have to go reread a few of those.

  17. anon

    I have a question for the moms of older kids: How do you manage to get your own rest and free time when your kids are older and awake longer? Oldest kid (5th grade) goes to bed at 9. I’m in bed by 9:30-10:00 most nights and don’t see that changing because I’m tired, ya’ll. I feel like I get so little alone time in the evenings, and I’m not sure how to solve it, or whether it’s even solvable. Obviously I don’t need to help my kid brush his teeth or anything, but between 8-9 is when kiddo wants to read together, chat, and be together. He’s probably more likely than most to want to interact that whole time leading up to bedtime, but I also don’t want to shut him down when he’s clearly craving attention. (And yes, he specifically wants time with me, not my husband.) This was a challenge of older kids I did not anticipate.

    • Anonymous

      Trade off. Just because he wants you doesn’t mean that is what is best for your family! It’s not best for you OR your husband or your kid!

    • AFT

      We put my slightly younger kids (10.5 and 8) to bed around 8-8:30 and they read, sometimes talk or play together, or otherwise entertain themselves without screens until they fall asleep between 9-10. Their bedrooms are also on one side of of the house and we’re on the other, so if we did go to sleep before them (we too are tired) it doesn’t really matter that much.
      Can you start the quality time with your son earlier to allow for him to get your attention, and then leave him for cooldown on his own? Or build in more quality time at other points (e.g., while making breakfast, right after dinner, etc.)? Not sure what your school situation is, but if he’s maybe craving social interactions because school is weird/not full time/etc., could you help him connect with riends for outdoor play dates or video calls?

    • anon

      Mine is only 6, but I feel you. By the time my kid goes to bed, I’m ready for bed too. I’ve basically moved my alone time around. On weekdays, I can get about 15-20 minutes of alone time in the mornings while DH takes Kiddo to school, and about 30 minutes in the evenings when I get home, before dinner (DH cooks). On weekends, I get up before DH and Kiddo, so I usually get about an hour then. Also, DH and I alternate taking Kiddo out on Saturday mornings, so I get about 2-3 hours of alone time every other Saturday.

    • Cat

      Remembering from my own childhood – in the morning. My mom would be up half an hour (minimum) earlier than the kids and quietly have her coffee and read by herself.

      Also, after-school hobbies get later as kids get older. I had marching band from 6:30-8:30 some nights in high school, musical rehearsals were around the same timing, etc. And then I would hang out with friends or boyfriend on Saturday nights.

    • Anonymous

      We read silently together on sofa sharing a cozy blanket. I read the Harry Potter series so I could chat with her about it and she read some Roald Dahl that I saved from my childhood (she’s reread HP twice and was looking for something new)

      • anne-on

        This. My kiddo is a bit younger (and has a slightly earlier bed time) but I love reading snuggled together on a blanket on the sofa. Physical touch seems to fulfil a lot of his ‘need’ for me. I also try to read (or at least skim) the books he’s reading so I can ask him a few questions that are deeper than ‘do you like that book’. I also save my lighter/fun reading for when he’s awake so that I can easily dip in/out of it easily if he wants to chit chat.

    • TheElms

      I think this is probably why my parents insisted I keep an early bedtime until 7th grade. My weeknight bedtime was 8:30 and 9pm on weekends. I didn’t have to be asleep but
      I had to be in my room ready for bed. I recall that I often read for an hour before going to sleep. By 7th grade I was busy enough with sports/homework that there wasn’t really any time for socializing other than dinner. By high school my parents frequently went to bed around 10pm and I stayed up for another hour or so to finish homework.

      I would move quality time earlier if you can/possibly as part of dinner. We used to sit down for dinner at 7pm and not finish dinner until 8pm or a little bit after. Then it was off for a quick bath, brush teeth and come back down to say goodnight and then to bed at 8:30pm.

    • BeenThatGuy

      I struggle with this as well with my 7th grader. He insists that I tuck him in every night. With his bedtime being 10 during the week and 1030-11 on the weekend, I need to come up with a better plan. I’m exhausted and staying up that late sometimes makes me crabby and then resentful of him. He wants a later bed time and I’ve explained that he’ll have to put himself to bed. Then he cries just thinking about that. What I’ve come to is that this won’t last forever. It’s only a matter of time before he’s a teenager and wants nothing to do with me. So I suck it up and try to enjoy the moments. As for me time, I get up 30 minutes early and enjoy every second of the peace and quiet.

        • Anonymous

          This might sound weird, but if you have a 7th grader crying needing to be tucked in that wants to stay up later…could you either:

          1. “tuck him in” at 9pm then he can do whatever he wants from 9-whatever Bedtime is? My kid is only 8 but I tuck her in at 7:30 and she’s allowed to read/be in her room quietly until 8:15. I come back before bed and make sure her light is off but it always is.

          2. Can he tuck YOU in? Like he can come in and say goodnight when he is going to sleep.

          I think #2 is a little odd but it seems like it could work with your dynamic.

          I am so curious about this because I wanted nothing to do with my parents re: being tucked in after age…10?

          • Anonymous

            I tucked my mom in from age, oh, 12 or so until I went to college. It was our point to check in for the day, and it allowed her to stay at the other end of the hall from my slovenly bedroom, so win win!

        • No Problem

          It’s not really that abnormal. Some kids go through a phase like this, but it will pass. I definitely went through a phase around age 10 (I think? could have been a bit older) where I wanted my dad to carry me upstairs to bed every night. I was definitely pushing the boundary of being too old to be carried up a flight of stairs. And then the phase was over, and I went to bed on my own. You really never know what’s going on with a kid that age – it’s possible he’s also realized he’s no longer a child who needs to have his mom put him to bed, but he’s sad that that period of life is over. Or maybe he knows someone who lost their mother recently and he’s trying to find a way to stay as close to you as possible.

          Maybe a compromise is for you to redefine “bedtime” for your son. You will tuck him in at 9:30, but not turn out the light. He’s allowed to read or write in a journal until it’s time to turn out the light at 10 (or later, if you set a later bedtime).

        • BeenThatGuy

          Feel free to parent your children however you’d like. I prefer to shower mine with love and comfort in the form of pulling up his covers over him and giving him a kiss. Yep, very unhealthy.

          • Anonymous

            Shower with all the love you want! But if your 11 year old cannot handle “actually dad is tucking you in tonight” you’ve created a problem.

          • Anonymous

            You don’t have to stay up until 11:00 to do that, though. You can do it at 8:00 and then let him stay up reading.

          • BeenThatGuy

            Anon at 1:34: Dad tucks him in when he goes to his house. We’ve been divorced over a decade.

          • Anon

            We did teeth brushing and then an hour of “reading” time before lights out. I know they weren’t aleays reading and were probably on their handheld devices or whatever, but it gave me that hour of decompression time I needed. You can work something like this out. I did this until my kids were in high school, and even then I tried to enforce it, but they often had intense homework keeping them up late anyway.

        • anon

          OP here, and yeah, I realize it doesn’t sound great. Trust me when I say that we’re not letting him get away with stuff or trying to be weird about it. He has some challenges with executive functioning and is not quite at age level with some of this stuff. And the last year has been rough, and all his anxiety surfaces at bedtime. It’s not great for any of us, but it is what it is. Also, I know plenty of parents who still tuck their big kids in, so I don’t think we’re THAT far outside the norm.

          • Anonymous

            My high school age daughter would ask me to lay with her sometimes when she was extra stressed with school or social life. We would turn on rain sounds and I would stay until she fell asleep. Now that she is a sophomore in college living on her own I miss it!

    • Anonymous

      Establish “reading time,” alone in bed with PJs on and teeth brushed, from 8:30 to 9:00. Lights out at 9:00.

  18. Anon

    Since it seems like you all need a Monday laugh, here’s a story that I told on FB last week. It won’t be as funny without the picture but hopefully you can picture it in your mind.

    I had to work from my parents’ house for a couple days and they kindly had set me up a desk in my old childhood bedroom that became my brother’s bedroom when I went to college (it was larger) and is now their guest bedroom.

    I had international depositions two of the days. I carefully angled my camera so that my bed didn’t show. Just as everyone is logging in, I realize that the anarchy symbol my brother had painted on his ceiling in glow in the dark paint when he was around 14 (that was supposed to only be visible at night) was clearly showing in the camera. I had to scramble to re-arrange. Luckily, my role was a minor one in the depositions and I could have my camera off for most of it. Thanks little bro!

    • Monday

      Love it. Similarly, my insurance economist brother is WFH now and using a junky old desk that belonged to me in high school. It has NIRVANA carved into the surface, by me. I doubt it’s visible on his camera though.

  19. Anon

    Rant: When your asshole ex goes out of his way to make life difficult for you at work + intentionally doesn’t communicate anything (yes, we work together and I will NEVER make that mistake again). Only another week or so until I transition to a new team and can get TF away from him.

    • Anon

      Oh, no! So sorry… that sounds awful. Glad you will be getting away from him soon.

  20. Anon

    NJ/NY people: do you have a sense of why rates are spiking now (vs the rest of the country)? My parents live in Sussex County, a rural-ish area on the NY border, which leads NJ in cases now. Parents are vaccinated and report that people in grocery stores are generally masked, etc. I figured that many people got COVID in 2020 when it was a hot spot and many more have been vaccinated now. But rates are spiking and stuff is closing down (e.g., no outdoor Easter services even). I am just worried that I won’t see them again (it has been 2 years now) for a long time and while they are not sickly, they are old and I am not yet eligible for a vaccine in my state (but am WFH, so essentially quarantining).

    • Anon

      What’s happening is exactly what was predicted – variants spreading that are 2-3x as contagious and some of which are a little deadlier. Cases naturally will go up until there is herd immunity. People are still gathering unvaccinated behind closed doors and at restaurants, or going into neighboring communities to party. Not to mention the entire bubbles of people that are anti-vax driving spread.

    • Z

      I’m in Michigan where cases are spiking like NY/NJ despite handling it relatively well over the last year. A lot of ours apparently has to do with high schools going back to in-person learning and high school sports starting back up. Indoor dining is now at 50% capacity but just from driving through my town last night, it seems that many restaurants are ignoring that.

  21. Anon

    I recently started therapy through BetterHelp, and this is my first therapy experience. I’m not sure if I’m happy with my current matched therapist but have nothing to compare to. You’re allowed to switch therapists whenever you want to with the click of a button, and I’m thinking about doing so but I’m not sure I want to start all over again with a new therapist. Basically, the thing that is bugging me is my therapist gives a lot of advice that I think is poor advice. For example, opining on whether, how, and when I should disclose a disability to my employer and seek accommodations, which as a lawyer I must say this struck me as legal advice that was patently incorrect. Or opining that the meds my psychiatrist is prescribing are inappropriate. I feel like this sort of “advice” is totally not what I want from therapy, but maybe this is how therapy is supposed to work?

    • Senior Attorney

      Nope. Therapy is not supposed to be advice. If I were in your shoes I would switch.

      • Bonnie Kate

        Agreed! I just very much supported a friend when she moved on from a therapist who very clearly was giving her advice (which friend, and I too when she shared the situation, completely disagreed with) and basically laid it out like an ultimatum and was frustrated that friend didn’t go along with her. I don’t know a lot about therapy, but it seemed very, very off base.

    • Explorette

      Therapy is pointless if you don’t like your therapist. Click that button and move on, until you find someone that is a good match for you. And yeah, that sounds way out of bounds for her area of expertise.

    • Anon

      I’m going to say it depends here. I agree with the others that if you don’t click, switch. I agree with SA that therapy isn’t supposed to be advice but a good therapist does push you to consider things you didn’t already consider.

      So, in your examples, my therapist might say something like “oh, I haven’t seen that medication prescribed for that condition before. My patients tend to have success with X. Did your doctor tell you why she thought Y was appropriate for you? Did you ever discuss X med with her? That’s something you could consider broaching if you feel like your meds aren’t working.” That’s very different from “that drug is inappropriate and should be changed.”

      Regarding accommodations, it would be a similar question format like “have you considered requesting an accommodation? If not, why not? Do you know how to do it? Your condition likely qualifies for an accommodation if you think that would help you …”

      • Anon

        OP here, I can see how the way you framed the advise here was geared towards considering all perspectives to challenge preconceived notions. This was definitely not that, it was very specific and directive (“you qualify for unemployment and should apply ASAP”, “You should tell them you are in treatment for your mental health for some job protection”, “have you considered meds for bipolar?). The bipolar one really stood out because I can say firmly with 100% confidence that I do not have bipolar disorder so it was a true WTF moment

    • Anon

      Click the button. That kind of advice isn’t good. I don’t want to say therapists can’t ever give advice but it really should be more like sharing an outside perspective/offering what information they have as opposed to instructing you on what to do. I have been with a therapist I like for a few years now. She does give advice in terms of ways I can do the things I’ve said I want to be able to do–like, we’ve talked a lot about actual steps I can take if I want better sleep. It’s never “Well, you need to do this!” If I had concerns about medication she would 1. make sure to mention that she’s not a psychiatrist with the capacity to prescribe things and 2. would say things similar to Anon 1:03 with anecdotes/her experience.

      Don’t feel bad about switching. Even if someone else thinks what she’s doing was fine (it doesn’t sound professional to me) it doesn’t matter because you still have concerns about that and personally, I have to have a lot of trust in my therapist’s abilities to even entertain the idea of taking their guidance. Giving advice they’re not qualified in undermines that trust, and I would not want to keep seeing them because of it.

    • Sloan Sabbith

      My therapist very, very rarely gives me advice, so when she does I pay attention. She lets me talk through stuff and asks questions to get at what I want, not what she thinks I want.

      During law school, a friend of mine had a therapist that told him to ask the woman he’d been dating for about two weeks to marry him. She said no, and the therapist told my friend he was disappointed in him because clearly he didn’t apply the advice correctly and maybe wasn’t meant to marry if he couldn’t get a yes. My friend, rather than DTMFA, believed him that he is unmarriageable. Almost bit my head off when I gently suggested maybe that his therapist shouldn’t be giving that sort of advice or passing such major judgments.

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