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Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
I'm in love with this lamb suede two button crossover front jacket by Rick Owens… the shearling lining, the stretch wool under sleeves, and the stand up collar… love. I'm the kind of person who's always freezing, so I'd probably wear this both as my outside coat as well as around the office if I were cold, but that's me.
I also think it's interesting as styled — it's rare to see a blazer look good with a maxi skirt, and here it does.
The blazer is $4,390. Rick Owens Hollywood Jacket
Seen a great piece you'd like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com.
(L-2)
Sales of note for 11.5.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – Extra 40% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 25% off with your GAP Inc. credit card
- Bloomingdales is offering gift cards ($20-$1200) when you spend between $100-$4000+. The promotion ends 11/10, and the gift cards expire 12/24.
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Fall clearance event, up to 85% off
- J.Crew – 40% off fall favorites; prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – New sale, up to 50% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Buy one, get one – 50% off everything!
- White House Black Market – Holiday style event, take 25% off your entire purchase
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Anonymous
I’m sorry but the styling on this is insane. That maxi skirt looks horrible with this blazer. And I hope to god no one would wear that to work.
Diana Barry
I agree 100%. This looks like something on Project Runway in the bottom three, and Nina Garcia would shake her head and say, “She just looks sad.” The colors are sad, the sleeves look too long, and what is with that asymmetrical hem?
Kate
Agreed! All you need is a cloche hat and it’s Downton Abbey.
BB
Agree! It’s very Morticia Addams…and not in a good way.
Anon
The top and skirt don’t belong together. Each makes the other more grim.
roses
I quite like the blazer itself though, although I couldn’t imagine paying $4,390 for it, even if I had the money.
Tara B.
Also agreed that this is NOT attractive. And it is far too expensive for what it is.
Matilda
Confession: I sort of like it — or would, if the blazer were A LOT CHEAPER and made of velvet or something instead of suede. But that’s mostly because it fits into my occasional fantasy of owning an art gallery or something and going to work dressed in long flowy skirts and chunky boots with big jewelry. However, I couldn’t pull of the look anyway, so it’s just as well I have to wear suits most of the time.
Although I could see it making a kicka$$ steampunk getup, with some modifications…
Lisa
I bet that jacket looks fantastic on. With some boot leg pants…
just Karen
I agree – I think the cut of the blazer would be lovely in velvet or another fabric instead of the suede.
TCFKAG
There are TONS of very similar blazers out there for WAY less right now. Depending on the fit and cut you’d like I’m sure I could find you one (and how much you’re willing to pay.)
Matilda
I’m probably set — I’ve got a good one for steampunkishness — black and velvet, with lots of buttons. As for my daily life, I probably need to stick with suits. Sigh.
Nonny
I sort of like it too, and I can see it really working for a certain kind of woman – sort of the Helena Bonham-Carter type (on an artsy day, not a frumpy day).
With a great necklace, bright lipstick and gorgeous heels, this could work really well as an art gallery opening-type outfit.
hoola hoopa
I like the jacket, too. I like the shape and color, although I’d prefer the entire arm to be the same material.
MD
Baby lambs died for this? Nooo.
Anne Shirley
Aren’t all lambs babies by definition? Or is this extra-young lambskin?
Tired Squared
Yeah, it really is awful. Perfect for the upcoming Halloween festivities, though…
Emmabean
Who are some of your favorite etsy sellers? I’m thinking specifically for jewelry, but others would be welcome too.
I’m making a wishlist per the advice of some of the ladies on here last week and I’m finding it all a little difficult to wade through.
lia
She’s a popular seller, but I really do like the art on unitedthread
Anon
I don’t have specific seller reccommendations, but I organize my Etsy shopping by setting up a Treasury list for the item I want – for instance, if I am looking for funky bookends, I’ll set up a bookend Treasury list and add all the bookends I like to that list. By the time I’m exhausted with trolling Etsy, I usually have about a dozen options in my Treasury and I can pick one or two from there. Plus, I keep the list so I can go back and find the stores again later.
Good luck with finding some cool jewelry! I like Etsy but find it overwhelming sometimes too…
Associette
Lirola for clothes and Everton Terrace for vintage costume jewels.
MJ
I love Gewgams and Gimcracks made by our very own R e t t e, KanyeEast. Her stuff is varied and she’ll take custom orders, which is awesome.
amelia earhart
+1
Marilla
+2! I have a lovely grey pearl necklace from Kanye that I love to pull out for fancy occasions.
MJ
Sorry–realized I misspelled – gewgaws & gimgracks, not gewgams! Whoops! Still, Kanye = Awesome!
anne-on
Yup, I got tons of compliments on a grey pearl necklace from her shop that I wore to a wedding this weekend!
Bonnie
I’ve been happy with the jewelry from this seller: https://www.etsy.com/shop/jewelrylj
TCFKAG
Not an Etsy seller specifically, but Heart my Closet has an Etsy store and has had gang buster reviews on here – I have not yet had the opportunity to order anything from her (she does BEAUTIFUL custom dresses) but I want to badly. Also I have to fifth (is it fifth) the Gewgaws recommendation – not just because I know her myself, but because her quality is top notch and she had now worked with me twice to design and make necklaces that were either copies of expensive ones I couldn’t afford or just necklaces that were in my brain that I was inspired by random beads I saw. She’s awesome like that.
anon
Any advice for shopping with your sister when there is an income disparity? My sister came into town this weekend and at her request we went shopping. The trip was really awkward because I bought a bunch of stuff (on massive discounts) while she commented on how everything was too expensive. I realize the easy option would be to buy her clothes while we were shopping but I am frustrated when she assumes I will pay or makes comments about how I can afford it. Any tips ladies?
anon
shop at stores she can afford? if I were your sister and made way less money than you, but you only took me to stores I couldn’t afford (even on discount), I would probably be annoyed/hurt/embarrassed.
anon
Should have put this in the original post- we went were she asked to go. None of the stores were expensive, although she strayed towards the more expensive items in the stores. The shopping trip was entirely her idea. Re-reading my original post I can see how it came off wrong. What I’m really asking is any tips for dealing with sisters that are trying to covertly get you to treat them.
Mpls
Act dense and don’t treat her (unless you want to). If she makes comments about how you can afford it, talk to her about your budgeting strategies. She’ll either learn something or get so bored she won’t mention it again.
If she asks to go shopping again, talk to her about what specifically she’s looking for and what her price range is (“How much are you looking to spend on x item?”) which should indicate that you aren’t intending to pay. But even if she does continue to hint, ignore it with love and continue on with your day.
Godzilla
Reading this followup, I definitely stand by managing your sister by partaking in other activities. Next time you talk about her coming to visit, preempt her with your idea.
tesyaa
Sounds like she either doesn’t really like shopping, or wanted you to treat her. If she truly wants to go shopping, hold back and make your purchases another time, and hit cheaper stores where she might actually find something.
KC
I was going to suggest something similar. Hold off on shopping for yourself so that there’s no “Well, you bought ten shirts for yourself, how about one for me?” pressure (either from her or internally). Ask her what she’s shopping for and stick to that. If she asks why you aren’t buying anything and/or makes a comment about how you should splurge/can afford X, just reply “It’s not in my budget right now, but who says window shopping can’t be fun?”
If all else fails and shopping is just too uncomfortable, I’d pick another activity (lunch, walking around your city, etc.)
TO Lawyer
My sister is a little like this. I either try not to buy too much for myself, or I tell her I need her help in picking out X (usually casual clothes) so it’s justified when I buy a bunch of stuff. As for buying her stuff, I do it when I really want to – you can’t let yourself be guilted into it because at some point, your feelings will come out and make everything worse.
I also get comments about how I can afford it and I usually counter with something along the lines of it doesn’t fit into my budget. To be honest, I don’t think it ever really sank into my sister until I talked her through making her own budget and she realized where all the money needs to go before it can go into shopping.
Godzilla
Just because you purchased items on “massive discounts” doesn’t mean anything. For example, $100 = $100, whether the original price was $100 or $300. Scoring a great deal doesn’t mean that what you purchased is objectively affordable. But that’s besides the point.
Next time you go shopping with your sister, either go to super expensive places that are beyond affordability for some fantasy shopping or go to a place you both can afford, such as a thrift shop, accessories store, etc. It might be worth it to plan out her trip ahead of time by scheduling a play or a museum trip or some other attraction where the focus isn’t spending money.
I get it – I have a sister, too, and figuring out how to bond without fighting can be a challenge. But since we both choose to maintain relationships with our sisters, it doesn’t mean we can’t plan how we are going to manage them.
NOLA
I’d say either find something else to do or ignore it. One of my friends buys a lot of quantity on sale then tells me “I can’t afford to shop in Michael Kors” when I go in the store. Well, yeah, she can. She just chooses a different way to spend her money. But I wouldn’t say that to her.
Pink
One of my friends pulls this too. Drives me a bit crazy, but I also choose to ignore. She buys a gazillion different things that will fall apart then makes comments about my (gifted) designer purses. To each their own.
Ellen
Yay! Non-Fruegel Monday’s! I love pricey Monday’s. I laughed when someone said this look’s like Morticia Adam’s. When I was a littel girl, I loved watching the Adam’s Family on TV and alway’s thought she was so svelte! I wonder if she is still as curvey. Mom says yes.
Anyway, as for the OP, I have the opossite probelem. When Rosa come’s into town, she NEVER has an issue spendeing b/c Ed does not badger her about money the way Dad does with me. Ed just pay’s the credit card bills no matter what charge’s are made b/c he trusts that Rosa will not buy anything to stupid. Me, on the other hand, has to deal with Dad, who review’s EVERY charge, and has me on a special credit hold with the bank — he is the one with power of attorney, even tho he is not even an attorney (and I am). So when I hit the monthley spendeing limit, everything is also cut off. FOOEY!
When Rosa came to visit a coupel of week’s ago, we went out and she must have spent $2500 on her and the kid’s at Lord and Taylor’s and Sak’s and Macy’s and Bloomie’s. She had them send everything to Chapaqua so she did NOT have to carry it. I have to carry everything, but the extra exercize is good for my tuchus Dad says. I have been walkeing with my fitbit, and Willem helped. We ate out and he walked me all the way home last week. He did come up for a drink (of Polish Spring water), and then left, but he did act a littel frisky, b/c he kind of grabbed my tuchus in the elevator, but said he was brusheing off what he said was a bug. FOOEY! I told him I do NOT fool around and he was disapointed. He still want’s to “see me” but I told him not if he doe’s that. He agreed he would keep his hand’s to himself unless I invited him to. YAY!!!!!
anon
I just wouldn’t do it at all. Shopping together just underscores the income disparity and makes the person with less feel bad and the person with more feel awkward.
TCFKAG
Depends on whether you want to treat her or not. I think many of the above are assuming that you’d never want to treat her, but if the income disparity IS indeed quite wide and you know she has certain stuff she NEEDS and can’t afford, I might consider treating her, but placing it within reasonable boundaries. Which means discussing it beforehand next time – like – “I’d love to get you a few things as a thank you for coming to visit us – what do you say to an xyz budget?” [that way she can feel more comfortable accepting.]
The main problem with her kind of secretive trying to needle you to treat her is (a) its terribly annoying and makes you want to NEVER treat her and (b) it can drive any reasonable budget out of control or cause tension if she decides she wants you to treat her to something you can’t afford.
Otherwise, next time, I’d say no shopping at all or save your own purchases for when she’s not around – as much so her annoying jabs don’t take on the edge of “why are you getting things and I’m not”.
Matilda
Sigh. Kicked off my morning learning how many of my childhood friends think it’s completely appropriate that their Halloween costumes involved blackface. Sometimes I really, really hate Facebook. And also some of my childhood friends.
anon
do any of you distinguish between traditional blackface (as in, black makeup plus caricatured eyes/lips) vs. simply using makeup to make your skin tone darker?
Anon
One might be a little less racist in historical context than the other, but is that really a distinction you want to be making? Neither is appropriate. At all. Ever.
Wildkitten
No.
Matilda
Can you give an example of the latter? What I’m describing is white people painting themselves brown so that they can play characters that are, usually, themselves based in extremely racist stereotypes. I’m not sure I can think of a respectful/non-racist example of using makeup to darken one’s skin tone for a costume — obviously, I’m not talking about using bronzer or self-tanner here, but I don’t think you are either. I’m not saying there might not be a good example out there — just that none of them showed up on my Facebook feed this morning.
anon
I’m talking about people dressing up as crazy eyes from OITNB. Is it inherently racist to dress up as a character when you do not share that person’s race, assuming that character is not based on stereotypes? Crazy Eyes actually defies many stereotypes.
Wildkitten
Yes. That is racist.
Anonymous
Yes. It’s racist. Blackface is not ok. Not ever. How is this even a question? What Julianne Hough did was tasteless, classless, racist, and frankly dumb. Like what idiot doesn’t know that you can’t do blackface.
Olivia Pope
Julianne Hough did that. And then made a public apology because people called her out.
In my opinion, the orange jump suit and hair style (not Afro wig done into that hair style, your actually hair in little balls) is enough to show what character you’re portraying. Then walk around saying Shakespeare monologues. Maybe wet yourself.
But don’t paint your skin dark.
Anon2
But it would be ok to dress up as crazy eyes as long as you didn’t do blackface, right? I mean, dressing up as a character outside your own race isn’t necessarily racist, is it?
Also – I’ve seen where white friends have used whitening powder to look even whiter to portray a geisha. Is that racist too?
anon
seriously? you can put your hair into little balls but not use an afro wig to accomplish that? i understand the history behind blackface, but aren’t we just marginalizing people further by saying that they, singled out from every other person, cannot be portrayed with a costume? i flatironed my hair and wore it in pigtails to be pocahontas. i think that hairstyle is beautiful, as are the deerskin clothes. is that racist?
anon
Would it be okay to dress up as Crazy Eyes without blackface? i.e. is it the blackface that is the problem or the act of dressing up as someone who is not of the same race as you? I completely agree that any sort of blackface is extremely not okay, but I saw a (white) kid dressed up as Will Smith from I Am Legend last year (no blackface) and didn’t think twice about it. Maybe I should have?
Anonymous
I mean personally I wouldn’t dress up as pocohontas or a geisha because I’m white…I just wouldn’t portray a person of another race.
anon
I think a blanket rule that you cannot/should not portray a person of a different race is silly and an example of political correctness taken to its extreme which actually further marginalizes people. Should a black person not dress up as ANY white person/character played by a white actor? I guess we should tell little black girls they aren’t allowed to dress up as Snow White or Cinderella, and little white girls they aren’t allowed to be Dora the Explorer.
S-non
You can absolutely portray a character of another race. Your costume should not need blackface to be a costume. The blackface/makeup is what is racist, not dressing up. If I was not white, I think wearing (for example) a Snow White dress would make it pretty obvious. In terms of Jersey Shore, “tan” is not a race. Seeing as one logo of that show was gym, tan, laundry, I don’t think putting makeup on to be more tan is racist.
cbackson
I think there’s a specific history and context to blackface. Dressing up as a character of a different race doesn’t necessarily carry that same history and context with it.
In any case, it’s rarely – if ever – necessary to change skin color through makeup to portray a character that has a different racial background. A good friend of mine dressed up as Holly Golightly for Halloween; there was no doubt who she was portraying even though she’s dark-skinned. Similarly, I worked a Halloween event yesterday and there were tons of little girls of all races in Mulan costumes, none of whom had done anything to their skin.
Senior Attorney
The problem with dressing up as a geisha or Pocahontas or something similar, is that at best you’re appropriating somebody’s culture to go to a party and get wasted, and at worst (“sexy geisha,” “sexy Pocahontas”) you’re perpetuating racial stereotypes. Which you definitely were when you flatironied your hair and wore it in pigtails, because the real Pocahontas apparently had lovely wavy hair, which she mostly wore loose: https://www.google.com/search?q=pocahontas&client=firefox-a&hs=VUW&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Q49uUsK7G-SEjAKwoIGYDg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1536&bih=679#channel=fflb&q=real%20pocahontas%20and%20john%20smith&revid=2021571229&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=JyWLP72IefppaM%3A%3BTYkFCiiF9WSUYM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%252Fwikipedia%252Fcommons%252F5%252F5e%252FPocahontas-saves-Smith-NE-Chromo-1870.jpeg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fen.wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FPocahontas%3B1058%3B790
anon
my pocahontas costume was not “sexy pocahontas.” as far as my hair, oops.
I’m so over this over-the-top political correctness. should the redskins change their name? yes. should people be offended when I dress up as pocahontas? no. unless all nurses should be offended when people wear sexy nurse costumes (my mom, a nurse, is actually offended at that) or police officers should be offended when people wear sexy cop outfits.
are you equally offended when someone dresses up as cleopatra or a viking?
Senior Attorney
Yes, stereotyping is offensive. Cleopatra and the vikings are dead and gone so I worry less about them than I worry about the people who are alive and here and telling you that your actions are hurtful to them, like Native Americans and your own mother. Sorry it ruins your fun. That’s a common response of holders of privilege when confronted with these issues, which as holders of privilege they’ve never had to think about.
One response is certainly to do what you’re doing and trivialize the reaction of those who are affected (like your mom, like Native Americans and African Americans), and go around telling everybody how you’re “so over it.”
I would suggest that perhaps a more appropriate, intelligent, and dignified response would be to at least try to understand where the objections are coming from and see whether you might want to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
Wannabe Runner
I would say if your costume is based on a racial stereotype, then it is inappropriate. (Going as “Ali baba” or even a gyspy/Roma could count here.) Pocahontas certainly counts here, IMO, especially if you’re going in buckskin and a feather headdress and and pigtails. That is a racist stereotype, and not historically accurate.
Coloring your skin to portray someone of a different race is also inappropriate. Coloring your skin to portray John Boehner or Jersey Shore is ok, IMO, because they have also artificially colored their skin, and that’s part of what you’re making fun of. It’s not like an immutable characteristic that they can’t change.
TCFKAG
I’ll just put in my two cents here – first I think that black face/brown face/lighter white face is generally not necessary to a costume and pretty offensive – no matter how you spin it. And even if *you* don’t find it offensive, that’s not really the point, the point is that you could really be hurting other people who see you and is the verisimilitude of your Halloween costume really worth it.
As far as “ethnic” costumes – I think the key is to not dress up in a costume that could be confused as you dressing up to represent an entire culture. So the problem with Geisha is people may look at you and think – “oh she’s dressed up as a Japanese person” and dressing up as a generic, stereotypical “Mexican” or “Native American” or “Gypsy” person has the same problems; you’re summing a whole culture up in a costume and almost certainly relying on stereotypes [likely offensive ones] to do it.
On the flip side, if you daughter dresses as Dora the Explorer, she is dressed as a very specific Latina character who most if not all people will be able to identify (and whose identity really doesn’t have all that much to do with her race). The same is true of lots of costumes you could pick that are recognizable characters of color that still don’t represent the *whole culture* from which they arise. I think that’s the line where things get really offensive. Well, that and anything that even sniffs of black face, but that’s kind of a rule on its own in my book.
posey
Senior Associate, you win this thread (seriously). Amazing response. Sorry you can’t dress in your preferred Halloween costume because it offends a class of people who have been historically exploited/abused/marginalized/persecuted. Life can be SO UNFAIR sometimes.
Divaliscious11
She could have portrayed the character without the black face. There were external ways to convey. More bantu knots would have sent the same message….
There really is no excuse for blackface
lia
NO
Anonymous
I mean if you are referring to using self tanner and bronzing powder to make yourself look tan, then I think that’s fine. It’s safer than tanning beds. But if you are referring to what Julianne Hough did….that’s blackface.
Sincere
I am not sure that it’s okay either, but what is the difference between putting on a bunch of orange make up and bronzer to dress up like Snookie and putting on a bit more to look like Crazy Eyes? I know one is much more loaded but why is the first completely okay and the second not even up for debate?
Also, for those that are 100% sure that blackface is never okay, do you feel the same way about a non-white person dressing up in “white” face — e.g., if someone put on lots of make up to be Paris Hilton for Halloween? Again, I think the history of blackface makes this much more loaded & maybe that means it can’t be ever compared, but shouldn’t we think about these things as opposed to just automatically jumping to “x is never okay”??
Anonymous
No I didn’t mean using tanner to look like snooki. I meant people who use self-tanner in the summer because they don’t want pasty white legs….Or people who use bronzer in their everyday makeup routine. I don’t think making your skin lighter/darker to appear like another ethnicity is ever appropriate.
Sincere
I wasn’t singling you out but since you responded, I am curious: where was all the outrage when everyone and their mother dressed up like the cast of the Jersey Shore? If it’s never okay, shouldn’t we have been upset then? I am sincerely trying to figure this, so please don’t interpret this as any kind of attack.
Anonymous
I may be incorrect, but when people were using self-tanner to dress up as people from Jersey Shore I don’t think they were using the tanner to dress up as Italian-americans specifically. I think they were representing a certain sub-culture of people who aggressively tan themselves to fit a certain physical ideal. They weren’t representing an ethnicity or race or anything. People at the jersey-shore who fit the stereo-type choose to participate in that culture and choose to dress/style themselves in that way.
Senior Attorney
You are right: White people putting on blackface and portraying black people in demeaning ways has a very specific history in this country that, in my view, can’t be dismissed and makes any kind of blackface “never okay.”
I feel the same way about white people putting on makeup to portray any other racial group, both for the reasons I stated above and because there is a similar history of white performers putting on makeup to portray, for example, Asian characters in demeaning ways (e.g. the old Charlie Chan movies, Mickey Rooney’s character in “Breakfast at Tiffany’s,” etc.).
It boggles my mind that anybody would see this kind of thing as comparable in any way to dressing up like the laughing-all-the-way-to-the-bank voluntary-tanning-subculture idiots on “Jersey Shore.” (But since apparently some people do see it as comparable, let’s just not do any of it!)
Kanye East
The difference is Snooki is not black. Uzo Aduba, who plays Suzanne ‘Crazy Eyes’ Warren, is.
Divaliscious11
Neither is appropriate.
Stephanie
I’ve been trying to explain to the other parents in my very white suburb that it’s not okay to have the kids dress up as “other cultures” for the second grade school play “We Come From Everywhere”. My son was supposed to be from Mexico, my daughter her year was Native American (along with the other darker skinned kid in the class). My boss’ kid, who is Black, was an African drummer (my boss just rolled her eyes at that one– I guess at least they didn’t do blackface on a white kid). All wore Halloween-type stereotypical costumes– kind of pochohantas, or the kind of mexican attire you find at Party City for Cinco de Mayo. Seriously, WTF. No one understood why I thought this was at all questionable. Although they did agree it was weird that some of the girls always play “mail order brides” from Russia. That part they got.
Godzilla
Did you guys see the Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman and “Robbin Da Hood” group costume photos floating around online? Shudder.
Matilda
Gah. I’m really scared to look. I suppose I should be grateful that none of my friends (that I know of (so far)) had the complete lack of decency to make a public joke about a dead teenager.
Or — given some of the costumes I did see — maybe they just didn’t think of it. Argh.
Bewitched
Also not cool (IMO) for Rush Limbaugh to refer to Trayvon Martin as “Trayvon Martin Luther King”. Of course, he does it to incite criticism and boost ratings….
Anon
My sister-in-law adores Rush Limbaugh. And people wonder why I detest her.
roses
That’s awful, but I feel you on the frustration of seeing horrible posts from your childhood friends. One of mine, a former marine, posted a rant yesterday about how Obama is trying to “turn the military gay” by approving the new unisex hats. Sigh.
Matilda
Yeah — Facebook has definitely taught me that a lot of my friends are WAY more willing to listen to the frayed edges of the right-wing media than I ever would have thought. I can usually filter out the nuttier political drivel. But somehow this was more shocking to me — it’s sort of horrifying to realize just how many PEOPLE I KNOW (as opposed to random college frat-jerks) who apparently don’t know any better than to flaunt their racism on the internet.
And also to wonder exactly what I’ll say to them at the Christmas party this year…
TCFKAG
Wouldn’t having more women in the military have the opposite effect [more than likely]? I mean…just saying – that seems like a logical fallacy. (Not that having unisex hats will actually encourage more women to join up, but if it were symptomatic of a wider effort to make the armed forces more friendly and safe for women than my argument would make sense.)
Okay that joke kind of fell apart on me there.
Anonymous
I don’t understand why people stay facebook friends who others who so clearly infuriate them. If you think someone is a racist bigot then un-friend them on facebook. I hope you are actually still friends with this woman in real life.
Matilda
Oh, agreed — I am big with the de-friending, or at least the hiding of folks who are too close as family friends for me to de-friend without fallout. I don’t usually mind political differences in my feed, but I do cut out the racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. The ones from today were surprises — I think that’s why it threw me for such a loop.
SA
Entertainment value.
Godzilla
This whole discussion is bewildering.
Yes, it is racist to alter your skin color in an attempt to portray someone of a different race/ethnicity. Someone’s actual skin color is not a costume. Also, it is racist to wear attire of religious or cultural importance/significance from a different culture (see Native American headdresses, bindis, turbans, etc). For Halloween or any other time.
That being said, there is a difference when portraying a well known character. There is no problem when a person of any race or skin color dresses up as Wonder Woman or Cinderella or the Tin Man.
I just don’t understand why anyone would wear a costume that would be offensive to anyone. If your costume is offensive to a certain group of people, it’s an offensive costume. It’s that simple.
Becky
This X 1000
Someone’s actual skin color is not a costume.
Senior Attorney
I imagine this is a particularly painful topic for you, Godzilla.
http://www.amazon.com/brandsonSale-Adults-Godzilla-Halloween-Costume/dp/B002MVXXWM
Godzilla
I get so annoyed when they get the teeth and claws all wrong! RAWR.
But it soothes my monster ego that more people want to look like me. No one can deny how very good looking I actually am.
Anon
Godzilla, it’s just sad that so many posters kept trying to rationalize blackface and other examples of using someone’s skin color as a costume. Is it really so hard to understand?
Senior Attorney
Should have just kept reading and then posted “What the monster said!” :)
Blonde Lawyer
I generally agree with your comment – especially as to Halloween.
I disagree that it is never appropriate to wear cultural attire if you are not of that culture. I know many people who were encouraged to wear traditional Indian attire to an Indian wedding, even if they weren’t Indian. It was the (Indian) Bride and Groom’s request. I think it is appropriate (and expected) to wear a burka/hijab when visiting certain Muslim countries even if you are not Muslim. My mom teaches preschool and one of her former students is Japanese (I think). The girl’s grandmother brought back little kimonos for each of the kids and did a guest lecture day where she made traditional cuisine for them and they ate at a low table sitting on the floor without their shoes. The kids loved it and learned about Japan. I don’t think that was racist.
Senior Attorney
The difference is wearing it in context, when invited to do so, as opposed to wearing it as a costume, to demonstrate that XYZ culture is so “other” (i.e. removed from everyday life) that it is Halloween costume fodder in the same way space aliens and fairy tale character princesses are Halloween costume fodder.
Godzilla
What Senior Attorney said =).
Blonde Lawyer
I completely agree and we are on the same page.
Wannabe Runner
And when you’re playing into stereotypes – like putting on a headband with one feather sticking up in the back to portray a Native American.
Think of it this way: you may not know any Native Americans who are offended by a Pocahontas costume, but you never know if one you don’t know will be at the party you attend.
Susedna
So late to this thread and everything bc I’ve been on the road today, but wanted to chime in and say I think Senior Attorney did an excellent job unpacking this issue.
TCFKAG
Succinct and to the point as usual. Monstrously good. RAWWWR.
Kanye East
Eleventy million Kaiju Hit Points.
anon for this
Can someone articulate exactly why it’s racist – beyond just the stock phrase that it’s racist to alter your skin tone? I agree that it’s generally extremely inappropriate, but I thought that was based on old minstrel shows and how white people would use blackface to mock black culture. Is that the basis for it? Is it something else?
I guess for me it fits into one of those categories of things that people should stay far away from because of its historical connotations, even if some “blackface” on the fringes isn’t really that offensive (looking at you, Julianne Hough). Or am I totally off-base – is it actually offensive, without any historical tie to minstrel shows, to paint your face to look like another race?
And I’m not trying to be provocative here, I really am just trying to make sure that I understand so I don’t inadvertently offend someone.
emeralds
Do not have time to actually write response but Google is your friend here. In 10 seconds I had a bajillion hits, but this is a quick guide for people who REALLY have to wonder, in the year of Our Lord two thousand and F**KING thirteen, why blackface is REALLY ACTUALLY A PROBLEM. Link to follow.
And anon for this, I appreciate your asking an honest question and hope my response isn’t off-putting,,,I just find this thing so frustrating because it really blows my ever-loving mind that learning these things is evidently not part of mainstream America’s education in “how to exist in society.”
emeralds
http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/18422652908/black-face-vs-white-face-whats-the-difference
Senior Attorney
Thanks for this!
anon 12:09
Yes, that’s pretty much exactly what I said – the historical underpinnings of blackface give the context necessary to understand why it’s so inappropriate today. However, that still doesn’t answer the underlying question: absent the history, is it racist to alter your skin tone to look like another race? I think it probably is, but I can’t really articulate clearly why. I get that “race is not a costume,” but I think there’s got to be more to it than that.
Senior Attorney
Y0u and others keep saying “absent the history,” which to me is starting to sound like “other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?”
Wannabe Runner
There is no such thing as “absent the history” in America.
Does. Not. Compute. It’s like dividing by zero.
Senior Attorney
There is no such thing as “without any reference to historical ties to minstrel shows.” It’s the same physical act, it has historical connotations whether you intend it to or not.
Just say no to blackface. I promise you will have a fully and happy life anyway.
anon 12:09
Okay, maybe I wasn’t clear. I don’t think white people should ever alter their skin tone to attempt to look like other races. But, take two races that don’t have any history of racial subjugation. Would it be racist for one to alter their look to look like that other race if it wasn’t done in a way intended to mock? If it’s done ostensibly out of “respect”? (For example, America’s Next Top Model did this a few years ago and took a lot of heat for it.)
Anon
America’s Next Top Model claimed to have found races that had no history of racial subjugation? (Insert Willy Wonka meme – please tell me more about…).
I just feel like this entire line of questioning is a gigantic facepalm.
Senior Attorney
Again, I fall back on “no such thing.” You can’t wish away this country’s racial history.
Maybe on some other Class M planet, the Greens can paint their faces purple, and the Purples can paint their faces green, and it’ll all be great. But we don’t live on that planet.
Godzilla
Short answer: yes, it is still racist. Let’s say a Chinese person put on blackface. Or a Latino person put yellowish paint on to look Chinese and drew “squinty eyes”. Or an Indian person wore African priest(ess) attire. None of that is okay. It diminishes the living reality of the costumed culture to something unreal and fantastical, like Senior Attorney alluded to previously. By partaking in something like this, you dehumanize an entire culture and society by trivializing “palatable” portions of their experience into a costume. Whatever prejudices the costumed culture deals with is ignored because at the end of the night, you shed that skin. You are choosing to ignore that your costume *does* have context. Other people will not ignore it. PEOPLE AND CULTURES ARE NOT COSTUMES.
Mpls
I think the question then becomes – why would you ever need to alter your features to mimic those of another ethnicity? Is there any conceivable reason for it to be done?
History (I know, you want to get away from it, but you really can’t escape it) has shown that we humans (or maybe just Westerners?) haven’t managed to do it yet. Any use of the technique has been used to perpetuate sterotypes about a culture in an attempt to subdue it.
ANTM use may not have been intended to cause disrespect, but it creates a level of fakeness where it doesn’t have to exist. If you want a model of Asian descent, why not hire a model of Asian descent, rather than painting up a European model? It seems to me to be another way of saying “You are not good enough to protray your own ethnicity, so we’re going to find someone else to do it better”.
No History
Pray tell, what two “races” on the plant have no history of “racial subjugation” of each other?
Divaliscious11
What two races would those be?
anon 12:09
Man, you guys make it hard sometimes. I appreciate having a forum of smart, diverse women who can help me figure out things that I don’t understand, it’s truly invaluable. But, some of the pithy responses I’ve gotten confirm that it’s really scary to expose my ignorance in order to get more information about why my underlying assumptions/beliefs are wrong.
I know that people get angry when other people perpetuate discrimination. That anger is valid, and you have every right to express it. But it’s also important (sometimes, maybe?) to allow people a little bit of leeway when they are expressly asking why what they initially thought was ‘okay’ is, in fact, not.
Sorry if I offended anyone. I truly did not mean to. Thanks for the responses–all of them. They really are informative and helpful.
Godzilla
anon 12:09, I think we all understand that this is difficult conversation which is easier to have since we’re all on the internet and most of us don’t really know each other. That whole “allow people a little bit of leeway when they are expressly asking why what they initially thought was ‘okay’ is, in fact, not” = privilege. It’s unfair that it exists but it does. People with privilege are completely oblivious to the hardships that people without privilege experience. It’s a lot like explaining women’s issues to men; some men just don’t get it and never will but they have to accept that certain attitudes/behaviors are s4xist. I hope this helps put everyone’s responses in context. Everyone expresses frustration differently. But we’re all evolving together.
Anon
Another useful tip in life – what happens on ANTM is schlocky reality TV, and not reality, and most definitely not a model for how to live.
Anne Shirley
I look at it as a lost privilege- like recess being taken away when one kid is naughty. Sure, I can conceive of a world where blackface isn’t offensive. But centuries of racism means we don’t live there. I don’t care what the rationale is, white people have en masse lost the privilege of blackface. Fortunately, we still have tons of others to make up for this one small insignificant restriction. Sigh.
Please Google Racism 101
Anon 12:09, now that we have the Google, Racism 101 is at your fingertips. Go spend a few hours reading up on it and then come back. It is no one’s job but yours to learn about these issues. Getting upset because you’ve been called out on your ignorance is another example of your privilege. Gee, too bad it’s scary for you to get schooled by anonynons on the internet. I guarantee you it’s way scarier for a person of color to experience harassment and subjugation in real life on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. It’s cool that you’re willing to learn. But you have a long way.
AlaskaLaw
Thank you for this. I had the same initial question about Julianne Hough — didn’t think it was that bad, she was just trying to look as much like Crazy Eyes as possible — but you are absolutely correct. You can’t take away the historical underpinnings. I get it now.
Silvercurls
Here’s a quick response to your question. (I was rushing to finish another task. Oh, well, ended up writing another novel.) On rereading, I see that I’ve just expanded on your quick summary “that [blackface] was based on old minstrel shows and how white people would use blackface to mock black culture,” but I think that’s enough reason to avoid doing blackface in the year 2013. Please note that I’m not reacting with anger in the belief that YOU would defend the disparaging attitude behind blackface! I’m angry (keep reading) just because blackface had hostile intentions even if its performers and/or defenders might claim that they didn’t really mean to be offensive.
When 19th-century White American performers (e.g. people of European ancestry) darkened their faces in order to portray African Americans, they usually ended up portraying one of several standard characters such as the cook, the agricultural worker, the equestrian expert, or the “mammy” (maternal house slave who cared for children and/or accompanied the children as they matured into adulthood, e.g. the character who morphs from nanny to lady’s maid for Scarlett O’Hara in that awful movie “Gone With the Wind”). HOWEVER these characters were all played in SUPER-disparaging style as buffoons of the wide-eyed, scared-of-his-or-her-own-shadow, scrambling for safety while “comically” dropping household or agricultural tools…and while expressing fears or superstitions in heavily exaggerated dialect and ridiculous, humiliating vocal inflections. (Historians, feel free to disagree, but my sense is that these performances were not meant to be sympathetic. 19th-century African Americans–free or enslaved–and abolitionists would have been appalled as 20th- or 21st-century onlookers.)
These were not sympathetic portrayals. Blackface was a means by which one–empowered–group of people mocked, belittled, and otherwise continued the cultural oppression (as well as intellectual and economic oppression) of another–already disempowered and greatly suffering–group of people. It was NOT in any sense a sympathetic or empathetic portrayal! Instead it was a way for the performers and the audience to reinforce their belief that African Americans were somehow sub-human, sub-standard, and completely undeserving of respect, consideration, common courtesy, or basic human rights to self-determination, dignity, education, or freedom of choice re how to earn a living, where to worship, and even with whom one lived. (Enslaved families were torn apart when spouses, parents, siblings, children, etc. were sold and sent to live elsewhere.)
Personally speaking, I would be very reluctant to assume the identity of a character of a different community (racial, ethnic, religious) unless the character was was currently very popular and prominent such as Mulan (is she the Native American princess character created by Disney? I don’t follow popular culture very closely), Dora the Explorer, Snow White, or Cinderella. I could possibly also justify respectfully assuming the costume persona of someone from a different community who enjoyed similarly wide acceptance and respect…e.g., wearing a grey suit and blue tie to represent President Obama, or donning a dark brown wig (with hair pulled low at the nape of the neck) and a black robe with lace at the throat to represent Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. But the key to all of these costumes, as others have pointed out, is the easy-to-identify clothing rather than the fact that one achieves matching skin color.
Silvercurls
Kudos to everyone whose responses above said much the same thing but more concisely!
Gail the Goldfish
Mulan is the Chinese character from the Disney movie that dresses like a boy to join the army. Pocahontas is the Native American character. Both are based on historical figures (well, Mulan may be more legend that history). I’m sure the Disney stories bear little resemblance to the actual stories (similar to the Disney version of the fairy tales, where the originals are for the most part way, way darker than Disney movies).
Silvercurls
Thanks for your explanation. Much appreciated. (Yes, I agree that Disney took some liberties with the actual stories.)
anon 12:09
Thank you for taking the time to give me an articulate response! This is the best way to educate people about what is and is not appropriate.
Hel-lo
FYI – If anyone is more curious about blackface and the history of minstrel shows, I highly recommend Spike Lee’s movie Bamboozled.
TCFKAG
In addition to everything already written here (minstrel shows, race is not a costume, creating costumes of people’s reality and thus suggesting an “otherness” that shouldn’t actually exist) – let me add this…
Halloween is a fun celebration. You’re going to a party or trick or treating with your kids. You don’t know who you’ll see or run into while you’re out. You don’t think your costume is racist. But do you really want to take the risk that you will run into someone who does. As a white person [or a person of a different race than the one you are adopting for the night] you don’t know what it is to live with modern day racism on a daily basis. People of color talk about living with a constant reminder of the micro-aggressions of modern day racism – nothing like being lynched but just constantly reminded of their race and that they don’t quite fit in or that whites don’t see them as such. Do you really want to be the one to reinforce that at a *Halloween party* of all places?
I guess what I’m saying is that yes – there’s a chance you offend no one. But to me, any chance that I’d offend someone and RUIN their night is enough for me to realize that no costume is worth that. Especially considering the huge breadth of costumes I could wear that would not do that.
Basically, what I’m saying is, be nice.
Senior Attorney
I used to work with somebody who liked to say she was happy to be “PC,” which she liked to think of as standing for “Polite and Considerate.” I always liked that!
hoola hoopa
@ PC = Polite and Considerate. That’s great.
Stephanie
I am so going to use that. I do employment law in house with a lot of older, very rigid people who tend to say stuff like “well, now that everything is all PC . . .” I’ll just say, yes, polite and considerate– a very good way to keep everyone happy and keep us out of court.
Godzilla
I agree 852%.
Message for Kat
Can you please read every single word written here then explain why to all of us why you keep linking to that “Privilege” woman? Read her About Me: she clearly states her privilege and superiority are because she is a white Anglo Saxon protestant. She looks down on every one else. To her credit she is upfront about it. So I would dearly like to read your rational supporting her.
Anon
She’s admitting that being a WASP from a certain socio-economic level gives her privilege in our racially charged society. That’s honest. Because one of the things that really sticks in the craw of those who aren’t privileged is to hear privileged people pretend they aren’t.
You allege that she’s looking down on everyone else; I don’t see that at all and I’m a racial minority, and quite far from being a WASP. Evidence please before you level such a charge against Lisa.
Hel-lo
Do you mean this blog: http://amidprivilege.com/ ?
It’s a little confusing amid this thread where we are talking about the more abstract “privilege.”
But I also agree about that blog. The title and the attitude are not, as the ladies have so elegantly put below, polite and considerate.
TBK
To those of you who recommended the snoogle (giant ridiculous and very bizarre) pregnancy body pillow for my hip issues THANK YOU!!! Now just trying to figure out how to get it into my suitcase for various trips we’re taking in November…
Another S
Glad you’re getting some relief! I refused to travel without my Snoogle. In fact, after surviving not one but TWO circumnavigations of the globe (for work) in my first trimester, I refused to travel. Period. DH wanted a pre-baby vacation, and I said he could go alone, or we could check into the nicest hotel in town, but that I wasn’t leaving town until the baby was on the outside. I was just too uncomfortable and too paranoid.
KC
One of my friends checked a bag just for her body pillow on her latest trip. She said it was absolutely worth every penny of the checked bag fee.
Samantha
You’re welcome! Take a bag just for the pillow, totally worth it!
Senior Attorney
Don’t know how much the pillow costs or where you’re going, but you could consider just having another pillow delivered to your hotel, and leave it behind when you leave.
anonimus
Threadjack:
My husband and I have been married for four years, and we have a six-month-old baby. I am not sure if I am going to be leaving him or not, but in the past year (since I was about 4-5 months pregnant), he has basically left our marriage. He spends maybe 3-5 conscious hours in a week at our house, usually watching TV, refuses to participate in anything related to our family/domestic. Everything is awkward because he takes his absence by both taking a second job (we do NOT need the money) and by joining various civic, church, and volunteer committees – so our local community thinks he is just the most wonderful person ever. Except that he leaves the house every morning before 7AM and usually does not come back until ~9PM; then goes to bed.
What makes this weirder is that he says he loves me and he’s happy. Whenever we are at a family function or in public together he is SO affectionate towards me and the baby, it’s like a different person. I have tried – have I ever tried – to talk to him, to explain that this is not working out for me/that I am not happy/did not expect this/concerned for our baby. He usually tells me quickly that “feelings aren’t real, do we have anything real to talk about” and then leaves the room/house. It’s sort of hard to explain, but he makes it sound like I’m just b*tching and complaining. But sometimes he comes home after I’m asleep and leaves before we’re awake for 2-3 days in a row and the only way I know he’s been home is a pile of dirty dishes in the sink, dirty clothes in the bathroom and mud on the floor.
So, Question 1, is there something that I’m missing? My best friend moved three states away about three months ago, and there is no one IRL that I feel I can confide in. I sort of feel a little bit like I’m crazy.
And Question 2, what plans should I make over the next 6-12 months to ensure we’re able to leave smoothly if that’s what needs to be done?
Anonymous
Oh I’m sorry you are going through this. First, to address the way he is dealing with your feelings/concerns please read up on “gaslighting” because this is what he’s doing to you. He’s making you feel like you are the crazy one even though your concerns sound very valid. Here’s one article: http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/
tesyaa
What was your relationship like before this? Was everything mostly OK? Also, is he really committed to his civic activities, or is it just an excuse to get away? At one point my husband got involved in a local political battle that took up a ridiculous amount of his time. He really believed in the cause, but I felt like a single parent and wasn’t happy about his absence. Luckily that particular campaign came to an end, and I told him I couldn’t handle him getting involved in anything so time-consuming again. I think your husband’s refusal to listen to your concerns is a major red flag, though. Sorry you’re going through this!
mascot
If you aren’t already getting counseling, perhaps look into it. You need to be able to talk this out IRL. Secondly, consult with a divorce attorney. They can advise you on what pre-planning needs to be done.
And this is petty, but he can wash his own darn clothes. Your his wife and the mother of his child, not his maid. Even if your job is staying at home and running the household right now, he’s being ridiculous.
Diana Barry
+100.
What does he mean, “feelings aren’t real”? That is SO WEIRD. Would he go to counseling with you, or not? When you say you aren’t happy, does he just disengage and leave the conversation?
I would also take a weekend, bring the baby, and go talk to your best friend to see what she thinks and get her perspective.
Anonymous
Oh, I think a weekend trip to see your BF is a great idea! I also think talking to an attorney as soon as you can is another good idea, so you can arm yourself with the info you may need down the road.
I get how complaining about your husband providing (monetarily) for your family and volunteering makes you feel like a b*tch. I mean, if he was off gambling or something, it would seem a lot easier to complain about to others. But expecting him to provide for you and your child emotionally and with his presence isn’t unreasonable!
Fionable
I am so sorry, that sounds excruciating to live with. However, without a support system, will leaving actually improve your or your baby’s life? If you leave, are you planning on moving far away to where you have a support system? If that’s not possible, I would instead focus on making new friends and trying to find fulfillment outside of the marriage. If he acts affectionate in public, deep down he knows that is what a family is supposed to look like and he may eventually come around as the baby gets a little older.
anonimus the OP
I hear you. I think that’s why I need some time to prepare/think because making sure my child feels loved and wanted is the most important priority. I’m not going to go anywhere unless I feel confident it would improve my child’s quality of life.
preg 3L
If you find an option that will improve *your* quality of life, your child’s quality of life will improve as well.
Senior Attorney
I don’t necessarily agree with this. In these days of joint custody, I would be hesitant to divorce and leave my child to spend up to half his or her time alone with a father I did not believe to be capable of providing a good home.
Anonymous
Wholeheartedly agreed, 3L!
Senior Attorney – I see what you’re saying but having lived in a home with one terrible parent and one compromising parent, split is the way to go.
Olivia Pope
That’s terrible! Your husband is mistreating you and this needs to be addressed.
Your concerns are real and valid. Don’t let him make you think they’re not. If he says “Feelings aren’t real,” respond that they are and this is not just a feelings issue. His behavior is atrocious. A husband shouldn’t go days without talking to his wife and child for days except for dire temporary circumstances.
You mentioned church. Do you attend as well? If so I would recommend talking with a priest, pastor, deacon, whoever. They are typically counselors and marriage should be important to them. (If they aren’t concerned about this, then that also supports serious concerns about your church as well.)
Anon
Seriously, everything the OP says about the husband makes me think he’s a deeply closeted person with a double life and who’s gaslighting you to keep you in your place. After all, he needs a wife and kid to keep up the illusion of being the perfect hetero husband and father.
Complete with the playacting when others are looking on. The church authority figures would be the LAST people I’d recommend the OP talk with. They can sometimes automatically be biased against divorce rather than being open-minded about it being merely one of the many viable options.
Regardless of your husband’s real orientation, I’d think he maps to sociopath.
Anonymous
I had the same initial reaction that maybe he’s not hetero after all. But not all churches are exclusively hetero. Sadly, the majority are, but if OP’s church is open-minded and welcoming, it might be okay to seek help through the church.
Anonymous
I was wondering if he’s secretly gay as well. I mean this is really bizarre behavior.
Anon
I wasn’t thinking gay specifically, but I was wondering if he was having an affair.
EmilyD
Me too. I’m so sorry about this. I also agree with the poster above who says split is better than one terrible parent/one who compromises. I grew up in that household, and it was awful.
Anonymous
This was my reaction as well. In any case, I would say behaviour like this is mean and intolerable.
roses
Has he always been unresponsive to your feelings and just didn’t articulate his attitude before, or is this new? If the former, I would do all that you can to have him tested to see if he’s on the autism spectrum. I have a number of family members who are on the spectrum, and this is something they would say. The reason he might be loving and affectionate in public/volunteer a lot but not behave similarly in private is because he may have learned to get by by imitating others’ behaviors (this may have been the case for dating, etc. as well), but has no model of how to act as a dad and husband in private.
Even if this is a sudden change, I would still recommend doing everything you can to get him a full check-up by a doctor. There are any number of conditions that can cause sudden behavior changes.
There’s also the possibility that he has just mentally checked out of your family and is being selfish, but I would rule everything else out first.
anonimus the OP
OP here – I would clarify a few things –
We do go to the same church. I’ve thought about going to the pastor, except the pastor is terrible about keeping things confidential. It’s otherwise a great church, and everyone knows this flaw, so nobody talks to him about anything they don’t want repeated accidentally to the entire congregation.
I am the primary breadwinner. Even with both of his jobs, I outearn him by 15K.
I know it sounds weird/normal to get mad about things like dirty dishes/clothes. But literally, he will not pick up after himself. Last week I left his dishes in the sink and after 6 days there were fruit flies and a layer of mold where he had some kind of jam/jelly. He will get to the point where there are 5-6 pairs of pants in the floor in our one and only bathroom. This is totally new behavior over the last year. It’s like he’s depressed, except that he has endless energy to be somewhere else and according to him life is great. If I bring up that there are actually 6 pairs of pants in front of the shower, he tells me to stop being a harpy about stupid little stuff.
Sometimes I wish he would move out because I could handle being a single working mother if I just didn’t also have to pick up after him in order to function.
Godzilla
Huh. It sounds like he resents not being the focus of your attention anymore.
I have no marital advice besides hugs and rawrs but is it unreasonable to request that he pay for a housekeeper?
ezt
This sounds unbearable — but if this is truly new behavior over the past year, it also sounds alarming. Would you be able to convince him to get a full physical work-up? Are you close with his parents/family/friends – anyone who might be able to confirm that he is behaving in an odd and uncharacteristic way? It just sounds so bizarre if this isn’t how he’s been previously — if not a medical problem, could it be that he freaked out about having a baby and is dealing very poorly? I am so sorry you are going through this, it must be terrible.
Diana Barry
Agreed 100%.
Senior Attorney
+1 This behavior sounds so far beyond the pale that I’d want to rule out something like even a brain tumor.
OHCFO
maybe I’ve watched too much Grey’s Anatomy, but that’s exactly what came to mind with the recency and intensity of the switch.
Hugs from this end of the interweb.
preg 3L
It sounds a bit like he doesn’t like being a dad, since his behavior has changed so much so recently. If he’s struggling to learn how to be a good father, I think he’s only telling you the things he’s telling himself – that “feelings don’t matter,” etc. I am definitely not excusing his behavior – it’s totally wrong and you would be completely justified in walking out today (or getting the locks changed during one of his lengthy absences) – but the only thing ringing in the back of my head is that he is totally overwhelmed and doesn’t know how to handle being a father (or possibly, he feels marginalized and expected a child to be more interactive). I’ve heard men say that it took them a long time to really fall in love with their baby, that it was so hard at the beginning because there was literally nothing they could do to pacify their hungry/crying child. Perhaps this is why he got a second job. At this point, you’ll probably have to do something drastic to get his attention, so I really don’t know what to say. Take time for yourself, decide what you want and how much time you’re willing to put into it, and come back here for anonymous internet support whenever you need it. Huge hugs, this sounds absolutely awful.
Anita
There is something deeply wrong here. Please find someone in a counseling position with whom you can talk. The abrupt change in behavior and refusal to listen to your concerns signals are red flags.
TBK
I agree with all of this. Maybe you’re 100% done with this marriage (although it doesn’t sound like it) but if you’re not and if you still love your husband, consider that he might be really hurting in some way. This just sounds like someone trying to push out bad feelings by overfilling his life with anything else besides what’s hurting him. The suggestion that you see a counselor is a good one (can you go at lunch, or find someone to watch your baby an hour a week to get away?). It sounds like you could use some help in unraveling this mystery. I’m so sorry. I hope you find a solution soon.
Fionable
Have you mentioned leaving before? Has he acknowledged that he’s changed? How is he with the baby?
If he won’t listen to you when you talk, try leaving him a letter when you take that weekend visiting your friend. Be confident in your feelings- let him know that you want to be a family with him and that you will support him as best you can, but the way things have been for the past year is not how you want to live your life and you will not let yourself be ignored/treated as a maid forever.
Anonymous
Would it be that bad if the entire congregation did hear about this? Part of me thinks it might be a good idea to talk to the pastor…
Anon
Depends on the congregation. Is this an open-minded one? Or a “it’s always the woman’s fault/it’s her sole responsibility” type congregation?
Although I hear ya on the idea that he should be accountable for his actions (all crappy, actually.)
Anonymous
Any chance that he’s manic-depressive (but it sounds mostly manic due to his endless energy)? It almost sounds like he’s suddenly living in a fantasy world.
Anon for this
No wisdom, just enormous sympathy. Take good care of yourself and find someone wise with whom you can talk (friend, therapist) and from whom you can gain advice, perspective, or simply strength to act on your own inclinations. It’s your call as to whether or not you want to strategically leak information by talking to your pastor. My hunch is that this might backfire on you by bringing you unwanted attention & advice, and/or by having the pastor distort or embellish whatever you say until the public version is inaccurate. Good for you for trusting your instincts NOT to confide in the pastor, or anyone whose behavior screams “I cannot keep a secret!”
Hel-lo
Wow. There are lots of big suggestions here – he’s gay, he’s manic depressive, autism spectrom disorder, he’s having an affair, and on and on… even sociopath? Could we anonymous internet forum participants be projecting? We are going a little nuts.
I think there is something wrong in your marriage. It might be due to big changes like having the baby. It might also be something going on with your husband that has nothing to do with the baby.
But it is doubtful that this anonymous internet forum is going to know how to solve your problem.
I’m amazed by the parade of horribles that all the commenters are suggesting.
Could it be that he feels like he needs to “support the family” more, since the baby was born? If you are Christian, reading “For Women Only” and “For Men Only” can help you understand his need to provide, and that might be what’s happening here too. But really, only, you can figure this problem out. And chances are, he’s not any of the things I mentioned at the top of this comment.
Anon in NYC
I agree that the drive to get a second job could be because he feels more of a burden to provide for his family. Even though OP is the primary breadwinner, maybe her husband feels like he needs to step up his financial contribution. My DH is the type to get very stressed about money, so I could see having a kid being a trigger for anxiety about that.
I think his recent hostility towards the OP and avoidance of his family is not normal. And the fact that he maintains such a loving pretense out of the home but is so neglectful behind closed doors is awful. OP, I think you need a therapist for you. I would go to a professional, rather than a pastor, because I think you need to develop techniques for coping with this while you plan what you want to do. I also think it would be good for you and your kid to maybe visit your best friend for a little break. If you can take a week off and get away from the situation, it may help clear your head a bit.
JC
Agreed.
Anonymous
Not to be an alarmist but I recall reading something on the NYTimes well blog about erratic new behaviour and brain tumors. Not saying this is a realistic option, but health causes could be involved (other mention depression etc). The thing is though, health problems don’t excuse mistreatment. They just might be part of the explanation.
Anonforthis
My husband was basically doing this too, and I discovered that he was an alcoholic. I didn’t realize that alcoholics don’t necessarily smell of booze, fall down drunk, etc. He was drinking right under my nose, but I didn’t really see the signs. I’m not saying that’s what’s going on with your husband, but it does sound like he’s hiding something – whether it’s another woman, another man, an addiction of some sort, etc. Have you considered hiring a P.I. and having some surveillance done? Checking his e-mails (to the extent you can do so legally)? I would consider whatever options might be availbale to figure out where he’s going and what he’s doing when he’s not home — there’s something not right about this situation. Trust your feelings and instincts on this one.
anon for this
This sounds a lot like my parents’ marriage. I don’t have much advice for you, unfortunately, but I thought it may be helpful just to hear that you aren’t alone and you aren’t crazy.
Some quick notes on their marriage (they are still together after 40 yrs):
(1) My brother and I had a happy childhood. We were aware of the oddities and frustration between them (and had our own with my father also), but my father was mostly gone and my mother was an excellent mother. They both tried to give us stability and we knew they both loved us. When my father was around, he was somewhere between attentive and neutral. My mother has told me that she realized later that in a way she liked that he was simply out of the picture and she got to set all the rules, etc, but I know it was also very stressful for her. It’s not possible for me to say whether it would have been better or worse if they had divorced when we were young.
(2) Couples therapy was a huge flop. He has agreed to go at least once that I know about (one stretch – several visits) and everything bounced off. The therapist said to both of them that in their experience people like him simply will never change. Individual therapy has helped my mom substantially.
(3) It’s really hard when everyone outside the family thinks he’s amazing. In some ways, it’s actually the hardest part because there’s no one to talk to about the problems. My mom has tried and people literally do not believe it. Her adult children and their spouses understand, though. His sister does, too.
(4) It got worse when he retired. Way worse.
Stephanie
Oy. I have a friend who is living this– but her kids are 7 and 10 so it’s been going on for a looong time. I can tell you that her husband just thinks that’s the way it’s done. He is super into triathlons, which he sees as a personal challenge and accomplishment (and it is). He is super into church, too, and of course work since he is the sole income for the family. I think they are very traditional– it their world all home life stuff is the mom’s problem, whether that’s cooking, cleaning, taking care of kids, school projects, or even packing for a trip. He just shows up and everything is always taken care of. But she is often pretty miserable and usually has dinner alone. I would seek counseling now to set the record straight on how you insist on living.
West coast
Any recs for an employment lawyer in Seattle who takes termination cases? Many thanks.
fauosuh graie
The old drinking-at-work question. I am an undergraduate student in a field that often has student mixers or networking events at restaurants or in company offices. I know many people don’t drink at work or in professional situations. Some people say its okay or even good to drink if your boss is drinking. It’s ll very confusing.
To add to that – I’m under 21. In these situations, most people know what year I am in school and therefore that I probably can’t drink. But they offer alcohol, and sometimes insist. Is it ever OK to drink in this situation?
This is particularly problematic when its over a meal or something, so its blatantly obvious. I don’t mind drinking, although it probably wouldn’t be over half a glass and I am not easily affected.
I’ve had conversations like this:
Me – blah, blah, blah I’m a sophomore in undergrad
Recruiter: Oh thats good . . . please help yourself to a drink (point to a small bar with wine and other alcohol)
Please don’t ream me out about this, this is a unfortunately common scenario., so I would like to hear some opinions.
Summary – Do you drink at work? What if you boss is and pressures you? What if you don’t mind? What if you’re underage?
Anonymous
When I was underage but in a professional workplace (internships, etc.), I would have one drink at work-sanctioned social events and then switch to diet soda. Still a risk, but social but not likely to stand out. If it was not work-sanctioned but still co-workers, I might have a couple.
Anonymous
Interesting! I’m surprised by the other responses. I do work in one of those judgy fields, so maybe that’s why. Interestingly, I’m a relative nondrinker.
Mpls
If you are under 21, don’t take it as an invitation to have alcohol. “have a drink” is a good host move, and covers soft and hard drinks. I’ll bet that bar also has soft drinks, so feel free to avail yourself of one of those, or even just some water.
Once you are legal to drink – limit yourself to one (alcoholic) drink if you are in a professional setting. But don’t feel any pressure to have an alcoholic drink if you don’t want one. There are ways to order something that looks alcoholic, but isn’t, if you are getting pressure. But the above scenario you mentioned didn’t sound like pressure – it just sounded like someone pointing the way to the refreshment station, which is generally considered good manners/hosting.
fauosuh graie
Oh that situation wasn’t pressure – just thought it was odd. There are other situations where there is actually pressure/encouragement.
Godzilla
I’m curious to see what others say but if you’re in the US, do not get an alcoholic beverage. Go to the bar and grab a drink that looks alcoholic and sip on it all night. If you’re carrying something around, nobody will ask you to get something. Sound confident when you’re ordering at the table. You are there to network – your focus should be on pumping people for information. Food and beverage are secondary.
Woods-comma-Elle
Yeah this is interesting. Here in the UK it is not even thought about, everyone who drinks socially, drinks with colleagues, clients etc etc, but in our US offices they have training on how not to drink at work events. So it’s very much a ‘know your culture’ thing. Ultimately, the point is, if you don’t feel comfortable drinking, don’t drink.
Case in point – we had a new associate start in our team last year in the NY office and he came over for the annual department party we throw for clients. The party ended up in a bar with the hardcores (including partners, clients, counsel etc) involved in a jaeger train at 2am and this guy was just like ‘this would never happen in NY, but when in Rome…’
Killer Kitten Heels
Seltzer works really well for faking an alcoholic drink – most people assume it’s a vodka soda or gin & tonic, especially if you ask for it with lime instead of lemon. (It’s my go-to “fake drinking drink” for when I’m not in the mood to drink and not in the mood to answer questions about it.)
Small Town Atty
+1
When I don’t want to drink I always order a club soda with lime.
Nonny
Or here’s a revolutionary thought: if you don’t want to drink alcohol, just get whatever you want and who cares whether it looks alcoholic. Really, no-one will care and we need to get past this mindset that one must drink an alcoholic-looking beverage at work events.
Killer Kitten Heels
Not everyone will understand that “sophomore” = “under 21”, so they may not be intentionally urging you to engage in underage drinking. I might mention I’m under 21 in that scenario, so the person understands what it is that they’re suggesting.
If you want to have a drink to be social (and it’s clear everyone involved understands you’re not actually old enough to drink), I don’t think it’s *that* big of a deal (although I’m wondering what idiots are actively choosing to serve underage people, but that’s a problem for their legal department, not you), but I’d try to avoid as much as practical, given your age.
Miz Swizz
I think you should say “I’m underage so I’ll take a” and then get a soda or something else non-alcoholic. I think you’re giving people too much credit and they honestly don’t know how old you are even if you tell them you’re a sophomore.
I’m in my 30s and I have no problem drinking at work functions or the occasional celebratory lunch but in your case, you shouldn’t drink because you can’t legally. Nevermind the potential PR issues if it comes out these recruiters/networking events are supplying alcohol to underage drinkers.
cbackson
I wouldn’t even mention the underage factor – that will make people feel awkward. No one, of any age, needs to offer an excuse for not ordering alcohol. Just order *something*.
Bonnie
I do drink at work events although never more than a glass or two. If you’re under 21, you should abstain though. The recruiter should be able to figure out that you’re under 21 but may also just be clueless.
Niktaw
You need to be seen with a glass.
Go to the drinks table and get some fizzy water with a wedge of lime (faux G&T). If there is a bartender, ask for a virgin drink.
rosie
If you are underage, I cannot think of any circumstance where it would be appropriate for you to have an alcoholic drink in a professional setting (as in, supervisors or potential supervisors present). I think it could be perceived as an exercise of poor judgment.
Sincere
But I also wouldn’t say, “I’m underage. Can I have a soda?” I think you should just not call attention to it. Saying you’re underage can only highlight how young you are, make the other person feel like you’re suggesting they were offering for you to do something they shouldn’t have been which will only make them defensive, and maybe even just make them think you’re a little bit of a goody two shoes. Nothing wrong with not drinking under 21 – obviously – but most normal people did not wait until they were 21 to have their first drink and pretending like you would never dream of having a glass of wine until it was legal may, fairly or not, rub some people the wrong way.
I’d try to to just head off the conversation by getting a soda with lime or something similar early on, or just confidently order it when it comes up. No one will seriously question you.
rosie
Oh, I totally agree on not mentioning that you’re underage. Just confidently order your drink and move on.
Even if it’s over a meal, I don’t think it’s blatantly obvious or calls a lot of attention to yourself not to drink. Again, just order what you want with confidence.
PolyD
I completely agree with this, and I’m not real strict on “no alcohol until 21.” But – I can’t imagine it being appropriate to drink when underage in a professional setting, either. Also, I am a bit boggled by how frequently the issues of to drink or not to drink at a work event comes up. Are people really hindered in their career if they don’t drink alcohol? I mean, you don’t want to be condescending about it, but if you’d rather have a soda than a beer, who cares? There seems to be a lot of effort going into making people think you are drinking alcohol than in just owning that, for whatever reason, you don’t drink alcohol.
Maybe I’m just old or maybe my professional circle is very different, but I don’t think I’d be judged at any work event for drinking or not (except for drinking to excess, which I don’t do anyway).
Godzilla
I agree with you 534%.
rosie
I am also a little baffled at how often it comes up. I am late-20s and have a drink at a professional event if I want one, which is not always the case. If I don’t and someone commented on it (which has never happened to me, at least that I remember), I would just say “I’m good with soda” or something like that. For one adult to comment on another adult’s lack of alcoholic beverage just seems bizarre.
Anon in NYC
I frequently don’t drink at work events because I usually have early morning workout plans. I’m surprised at how often people DO say something (colleagues around my age, not partners. I’ve never had a partner say anything).
Blonde Lawyer
There are certain professions notorious for abusing alcohol. Alcohol abusers feel better when everyone else is abusing with them. They don’t want to feel judged so instead they gang up and judge those that don’t imbibe. They might not do it blatantly at that initial event but they may later decide that employee is “not a good fit” or decide she shouldn’t be invited to future “client entertainment” events.
Hel-lo
Agree. In many law offices, drinking is part of the culture. (Whether we like it or not.)
Senior Attorney
I agree with PolyD. I can guarantee you that anybody who is offering you alcohol is assuming you are of legal drinking age.
Nonny
I am so with you, PollyD. This is a total non-issue for me.
PolyD
I am definitely relieved to see I am not as old/out of touch as I feared. Although maybe still old.
It’s sad that there are professions that judge people for not drinking to excess.
DC Area Family Photographer?
I’m looking for a photographer to do a casual shoot of my family — preferably outside, probably at a local park (we live in Bethesda). I always wait too long to think of these things, and it seems many are already booked for the rest of the year. Any recommendations would be appreciated!
amelia earhart
Evie Claire Photography is wonderful. I know she’s in MD, but not sure where.
Bonnie
There are always photo shoot deals on groupon and living social.
Another Rec
Mary Terry Photography — she’s NoVA based (http://www.maryterryphotography.com/)
hellskitchen
Highly recommend Sandra Sitar photography. It is just “her name” dot com
DC Wonkette
Erin J Photography — she may be booked up but can provide you additional references…
Super Anon
T/J, will repost if needed: I am set to return to work soon from short term disability. I left because I went to rehab for substance abuse issues. I did this voluntarily. My work had been slooowwlly suffering. I finally went to my boss, said I couldn’t take it anymore and that was going to rehab, job be damned. He was extremely supportive.
If I had been out for chemo treatments, work would have sent me flowers and lots of messages to get well soon. Because it’s substance abuse, it’s hush hush. I don’t know what the etiquette is. On one hand it’s none of anyone’s business, on the other, if it is kept a secret, it keeps the stigma going strong. I took short term disability because I had a medical problem that needed treatment, and so I got it.
So…I don’t know what to do about it when people ask. It is still an ongoing medical treatment (i.e., I will have therapy and outpatient appointments on a regular basis and my boss and HR have agreed to a modified schedule for the next 6 months, which is very generous, but also, again, no one would bat an eye if it were for chemo, but because it’s for mental health…I’m so stuck)
Diana Barry
Congrats on taking care of yourself! If anyone asks, I would answer “I have had some health issues that needed addressing” or even “chronic health issues”. If they ask a follow-up, then you can say “I prefer to keep that private; I’m sure you understand.” Then they should feel bad for asking. Practice saying it a few times if it feels awkward.
mascot
” I took short term disability because I had a medical problem that needed treatment, and so I got it.” This is perfectly fine. If you feel like sharing more, then you can make that call. Don’t feel like you have to single-handedly undo a stigma if that’s not your preference.
preg 3L
+1. I think “chronic health issues” is a great way to phrase this. Mental health = chronic health issue, because it has to be constantly monitored and treated. Great job taking care of yourself!
Susedna
Very late to this, but wanted to join the chorus of support here. OP, you are brave and wise and taking control of your life and health – props! Others have already suggested good phrases to use to explain to coworkers.
Bonnie
Just be prepared for awkwarness. I think it’s easier for people to show support for an illness like cancer and they may be hesitant to ask you how you’re doing. If they do ask, just give them a short answer and say that you’re doing much better or something like that. Congrats on seeking help.
Killer Kitten Heels
In this circumstance, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being open about what you’ve been through, if that’s how you want to handle it – it sounds like your workplace is supportive about it, and you’re not expecting negative career repercussions from your decision to seek treatment. That said, don’t feel like you need to turn into a crusader for de-stigmatization of mental health treatment right at this very moment in your life – if you’re not ready to share your illness/treatment/etc. with others, don’t. Something along the lines of “I was out dealing with a personal health issue, I’m recovering, thanks for asking” is plenty of information for the people you work with. If anybody pries further, shut’em down with “as I said, it’s personal, thanks for your concern.”
So I guess the short answer is, do what feels right/comfortable/healthy for you, without worrying about how you’re “supposed” to address it.
Godzilla
Hugs and rawrs – you’re doing great and please check back and let us know how you’re doing.
Famouscait
It’s good to hear you took the time to take care of yourself. I know going back to work can be hard and there really is no etiquette for this. The first time my husband was out on STD for mental health issues, I was similarly upset by the lack of casseroles/baked goods/general concern that his office was doing at the time for another person out with physical health issues. Neither of us said much specific about it that first time. However, as time has passed (and he’s been on STD 3 more times) we’ve gotten more comfortable telling our respective workplaces, friends, etc. the nature of his absence. But I think that’s the key: you have to be comfortable sharing that information, before anyone else can come close to comfortable hearing it. Good luck and continue to take care of yourself!
Noelle
Baby/pregnancy-related threadjack. Please skip if not interested.
My husband and I are expecting our first kiddo in early 2014, and we are considering using cloth diapers (for both cost- and environmental-related reasons). My working-mom friends all think I’m crazy for even considering this option because they say laundering cloth diapers takes up so much more time than using disposables. I’m in the process of educating myself more on the cloth v. disposables debate (e.g., reading materials online, taking a class on “cloth diapering 101,” etc.), but I’m curious if any of the working mothers on this site use/used cloth diapers and whether they thought it was manageable from a time standpoint.
I’m generally of the mindset that you make time for things that are important to you, so if my husband and I decide using cloth diapers is important, we’ll find the time to fit them in. At the same time, I’m also very new to this whole baby thing, so I don’t want to set myself up for unrealistic goals (and the sense of “failure” that will come if I don’t meet them). Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Anon
Extensive discussion of cloth diapering vs disposables –
https://corporette.com/2013/10/03/loft-optic-dot-cowl-neck-dress/
Anon
Arg – in moderation. Extensive discussion of cloth vs. disposables on the October 3 loft optic cowl neck dress post on this site.
Anonymous
So I can’t vouch for myself, but my sister works and uses cloth diapers/wipes. She loves them! She thinks they’re super easy. You have to do a lot of laundry anyways with a baby so adding cloth diapers isn’t a huge deal. The baby’s room didn’t smell like diapers/poo at ALL either. But, she has a nanny-share. If you are going to put your child in traditional daycare it probably isn’t an option (almost all daycares require disposables). You could also cloth at home/disposable out and about.
preg 3L
I asked this question a few weeks ago and got some great info (you could google search thissite.com + cloth diapers to find it). There is very helpful information on Young House Love (blog) about cloth diapering. One thing that YHL recommended is to start out with disposable diapers and switch to cloth once you have the brand-new-baby thing down (around 6-8 weeks I think?). Also, don’t think of it as all-or-nothing, and then you won’t set yourself up for failure. Good luck!
Marilla
There was a long discussion on this just a few weeks ago that you might find helpful – try googling for cloth diapers and put site:corpore–e.com in the search terms as well.
roses
There was a huge thread on this a couple of weeks ago, but really, there’s no harm in trying it out and then switching to disposable if it’s not workable.
CKB
I did not cloth diaper, but I had a discussion with my younger sister a couple weeks ago about cloth diapering as she is due in Feb and also plans on cloth diapering (although she will not be working for a year after the baby is born at least).
The advice I gave her was to be flexible. Those first 2-3 months of a baby’s life are pretty tough and if it’s too much, especially if you will be going back to work during that time, don’t beat yourself up if you decide disposables are better.
The number 1 advice I always tell new moms (I have 3 boys myself aged 8-13 yo) is to do what works for your family, and ignore the societal pressures to do something else, if you can. If breastfeeding works for you, great. If it doesn’t, who cares? You need to make the decision that works best for you, your child & your family, and be prepared to be flexible if you need to change your mind. I think this totally applies to cloth vs disposable diapers.
CapHillAnon
+1 great advice. I did cloth diapers with both of mine, and it worked well for us, but there is an awful lot of crusading and judgement about so many parenting choices (diapering and breasfeeding most of all). You do what works best for you and your baby, without it being a political statement or cultural identity.
anonfish
I would just add that you should consider what your childcare plan is. Some daycares will not accept cloth diapers. Good luck with the new baby! It is an exciting and crazy time!
Noelle
Thanks for all the quick responses, ladies! I’ll find that older thread and work to stay flexible!
Cloth diapered 2 while working
I have 2 little boys 2 years apart and we cloth diapered both of them while having 2 parents working full-time. However – we had at least one parent working from home at all times (with either a nanny watching the kid or the kids at a daycare), so we could be flexible about when we threw laundry in.
I am also of the mindset that you find the way to make things that are important to you happen. That said, I really don’t think cloth diapering is really more work than disposable diapers. For the first kid, we didn’t know what the heck we were doing anyway so it’s not like disposables would have really been that much less work – you still have to find a receptacle and do something with the dirties. Disposables STINK – more than cloth – so you have to get one of those gross diaper holders or else empty the trash can more often. With cloth we found it really easy to just throw the diapers in a wetbag and empty it out.
I was a little militant with the first kid – he rarely had a disposable diaper; we even traveled with cloth. But, with the 2nd kid just 2 years later, we were a little more flexible and he was in disposables about 30% of the time – basically whenever we were going to be out of the house for extended periods of time. This was mostly because it was a pain to carry wet/soiled cloth diapers around (literally – they are heavy and take up room so I would have to carry around a big bag vs a smaller bag with disposables).
Oh and by the way – we tried all kinds of cloth diapers. My favorite combination…if I had a 3rd kid…would be: old-fashioned prefolds + covers for the early months, then BumGenius all-in-ones through todderhood. A set of 15 is plenty to wash every other day.
So, that’s my story – it can be done, don’t let anyone tell you it can’t be. But definitely keep your flexible attitude and if it doesn’t work for your family in your situation, don’t beat yourself up.
Have fun with your first baby! :)
Hel-lo
You may also consider a diaper service if there is one in your city. Good luck, and congrats on the baby!
hoola hoopa
I had one load of diapers every 2-3 days. I found the laundry load manageable with my first but not with my second.
Nell’s Natural Baby has a newborn diaper rental, and I can’t recommend it enough. It’s a cost-effective way to get the itsy-bitsy newborn diapers that don’t last long, but it’s also a good way to test the water.
anxious associate
Any words of support/advice for not driving myself crazy waiting for NY bar results? I feel convinced that I failed and keep going over all the times I chose to have a relaxed night instead of studying over the summer / the things I didn’t know on the exam and could have reviewed the night before / the utter crapness of having to tell my family and firm I failed, even though I technically finished the (infuriating) barbri program and shouldn’t really have any excuse for failing. Any words of moral support as I try to brave out the week or two before results are posted?
Killer Kitten Heels
The fail-rate for first-time test-takers who are graduates of ABA accredited schools is super-low, around 15%. Be realistic – do you honestly believe you’re in that 15%? Have you ever been in the bottom 15% of anything? I doubt it – you’re already employed, so you’re already beating the odds, considering how many NY law grads struggle to find employment. Don’t let fear cause your logical brain to shut down here.
Woods-comma-Elle
This.
Almost everyone thinks they failed and most of the time the people who are super-confident about passing, are the ones who actually fail. There is just too much information to be able to know absolutely everything. The trouble with the bar is that you don’t actually know exactly how well you have to do to pass, because it changes every time! But the point is, you can miss a lot of stuff and still pass and nobody will know you didn’t know the different types of equitable remedies in detail on the day.
On the day, I was kicking myself about the fact that I hadn’t looked at discovery properly the day before (even though Civil Pro was really likely to be in the exam) and that I didn’t know the test for NIED, but in the grand scheme of things it all worked out ok. The point is, you studied, you will have not remembered some stuff, but that’s the case with EVERYONE. Likely the stuff you couldn’t do on the bar, other people couldn’t either, so it all cancels out.
Anita
Ugh. Ten years later and I still remember this agonizing wait!
First, almost everyone feels like they failed the bar exam after it’s over. Obviously, not everyone fails, so please keep this in mind.
Second, it’s a test of minimum competence. No one gets everything right. And you don’t need to have come close to a perfect score to pass.
Third, there is no way you could have studied without breaks. You would have burnt out 2 weeks into the preparation.
Fourth, even if you didn’t pass, it does not mean that you’ll never pass, that you’ll never be a lawyer or that any other awful scenario you may have in your head is going to happen. You will be fine.
January
+1 to this last point. It’s more likely than not that you passed. But, since I don’t know you and I also can’t guarantee that you did pass, I want to break out my little “life goes on” speech. Most of the things we think as law students will be the end of the world (getting no-offered, not passing the bar) are not. I know several people who did not pass the bar the first time. I am sure that they were embarrassed and upset at the time. They also all took the bar a second time, passed, and are now practicing lawyers. Should you not pass the bar this time (and I very much hope that you did), take a deep breath, remind yourself that the first time out was good practice for the next round, and go get ’em in February. Good luck!
National_Anthem
It’s going to be fine. I took the bar this summer too, and I was amazed when results came out how few people I know who failed – like, almost nobody I knew failed. After all the anxiety of the summer, it was astounding (even though numerically I know way more people pass than fail. But still).
Also, if you mean you actually finished that h*ll that was the Barbri paced program, I am so sure you passed. I chased that stupid progress bar all summer and ended at around 75%.
Fast forward to bar results – I took the bar in a UBE state, and we got our actual score. Turns out I could have left half of the essay questions blank and still passed.
You’re going to be fine.
Divaliscious11
Gorgeous jacket. Not with this skirt, though….
AEK
I also think it’s a beautiful jacket. Luckily, I’m about $4K away from having to figure out how to style it properly!
$$$
Survey time: what do you consider part of you “living expenses?” I.e. If you’re someone who has (or intends to) saved at least 6 months of expenses “just incase” what does that include? Rent, food, loans, cable, car payment, etc?
Anon
Anything I still have to pay/can’t eliminate during that time period. So for me, that would be rent, utilities, pared-down food budget (still need to eat, still want to eat well, but grass-fed meats are out), anything vehicle-related (insurance, gas, etc).
Sydney Bristow
This is what I technically include as well, but my real goal is to get 6-9 months of actual realistic expenses for me.
I include things I have to pay no matter what. For me that is rent, electricity/gas, Internet (I consider this a necessity for job hunting), basic groceries, cell phone, and student loan payments. I have 3 months of these expenses in my emergency fund right now.
I don’t include things like my Roth IRA contributions, eating out budget, new clothing, travel savings, etc. I don’t have cable but is put cable in this category as well. Like I said above though, I do want to reach a point where I include these things just to make my cushion more realistic without needing to cut all sorts of things out right away, but I dont think it is necessary to do so.
ITDS
This makes sense. If you have cell phone / cable / other things that are on a contract that you can’t just cancel include them.
MH
Hmm, I suppose I haven’t thought this through in detail (I just really ballparked my monthly living expenses for the emergency savings).
But, I would include all the “fixed” costs: mortgage, loans, any health/car/home insurance premiums, transportation costs (bus pass, gas, parking, etc.), any tuition you are paying (daycare, private k-12, college), utilities (gas, electric, water, sewer, garbage), there may be others that I am missing.
Then I would start prioritizing the other costs and modify them a bit. For example, food is definitely a fixed living expense, but the amount you put into your emergency savings may be less than you normally spend absent any emergency. Same with cable, toiletries, gym membership, etc.
Diana Barry
+1. We just ballparked and then that amount is in the emergency fund. It is all in stock – so we would do credit cards for the first couple of days if we had a giant emergency.
Basics
Can I ask a follow up question about where/how you keep your emergency fund? Mine is in an online “high-interest” savings account with HSBC (well, it was high interest when I opened it). It is totally separate from any investments, which are either in my IRA, my 403(b) and 457 or in a brokerage account at Schwab.
What do others do, and why?
ExcelNinja
No-fee savings account. I don’t think the interest rate is particularly high, but I wanted the funds to be immediately accessible.
Diana Barry
It is just a regular taxable brokerage account at Schwab. We do keep around 10K in the regular checking account, so we have access to that account for cash-cash, and my DH keeps about 1000 lying around the house for cash emergencies.
We also have a “tax fund” which is separate, at ING/capital one, kept in cash because it needs to be liquid quarterly.
Basics
Thanks. That makes sense. We live in an earthquake zone and DH is a child of survivors, so we keep a lot of cash (green, small bills) on hand, too.
Hel-lo
We have a few thousand in a savings account, and more in the investments. If we were both out of jobs for several months, we could draw out of the savings until the investments could get liquidated. You don’t need all of your savings the first month (at least you hope not).
hoola hoopa
We keep it in an ING/Capital One account. It used to be high interest, but now it’s just higher interest. I still like it there because it’s just a smidge too inconvenient for us to tap for anything short of a real emergency, but we can still get at it fee-free in about three days.
Sydney Bristow
I do the same. My emergency find is in a “high interest” online savings account. In the event that I need it, it will take 2-3 days to appear in my checking account, but I normally have some extra in my checking and more than enough credit available to cover me for those days if necessary.
Jessica Wakefield
I consider living expenses to be non-negotiable items that have to be paid each month.
Rent/mortgage, utilites (gas, electric, water, sewage), cell phone, cable (although I would probably drop premium channels or eliminate it altogether), car maintenance (oil change, gas), car/homeowners insurance, food, pet expenses (vet, food).
I would try to round up what I pay for each so there is a bit of a buffer.
Elizabeth Wakefield
Why, Jess, when did you become so responsible?
HSAL
Hahahahahahaha. Love it.
Anon
Thanks for the laugh!
Pink
I wonder if this is a bit crazy, but I consider immediate rent, food, moving expenses, student loans and flight to my parent’s. This is because if I got laid off, I would move ASAP to a cheaper COL area. Perhaps this is silly, but given that I’m trying to prioritize decreasing student loan debt, I am partially counting my Roth contributions (ie. not the earnings) as “emergency” funds.
ExcelNinja
I kept it simple. We are aiming to have 6 months of our current budget in a savings account (currently have 3 months). That way, we can stretch it beyond six months if needed (DH has been looking for work for over a year now so we are kind of over-cautious on estimates of “how long would it take to become employed again after a sudden layoff”).
MissK
Husband and I are working toward 6 months living expenses, and we are including all current expenses – fixed/mandatory and otherwise. Mostly because I’m a bit over the top about having money in savings in case of unemployement or medical emergency. We just keep it in a regular savings account because I think of it as cash that I would want immediately available and I don’t want it subject to any kind of stock market risk.
As a side note – has anyone considered socking away up to a year’s worth of expenses? I just hear so many horror stories about people being unemployed for so long…..
Anon
I have..and yes, also scared about the long unemployment. Some tough structural changes (increasing problem of skill mismatch + unwillingness of employers to take on people who need a spot or two of training) to the job market in the past 2 decades and I don’t see those changes getting better.
Famouscait
Hi lawyer friends and ‘rettes. I have a basic legal question:
What is a hearing (as it would relate to a felony offense)? How is it different from an arraignment?
Many thanks.
Hel-lo
An arraignment is a type of hearing. There are lots of different kids of hearings in criminal cases. The arraignment is generally the first one.
Criminal law is different in each state, though, so you should talk to a lawyer who is local.
Anonymous
I like this jacket. Does anyone know of any cheaper alternatives that have similar style?