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Updated: Apr 14, 2021 455 Comments · by

Thursday’s Workwear Report: Ruffle Tie-Neck Top

The Personal Shopper (TPS)

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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

These days, I’ve been trying to wear more brightly-colored tops so that I avoid looking like a floating head on videoconferences (black and gray tops just aren’t working for me). I love this golden-yellow tie-neck blouse, which looks like it would pair just as well with skinny jeans or leggings as it would with a pencil skirt or under a navy blazer.

The top is $79 and available in sizes 1X–3X. It also comes in black and green. In straight sizes, it's available in black and “plumeria” — but both size ranges are selling out quickly. Ruffle Tie-Neck Top

Update: Unfortunately, the yellow has sold out!

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About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. Ellen

    Very cute top, Elizabeth! I totally LOVE the copper color and will ask the manageing partner if he thinks I can buy this! With all of my meetings on WEBEX, I wonder how this will look? The judge is all of a sudden a tech expert, and at his age!!! The manageing partner barley knows how to turn his computer on, and he asks me to prep him remotely whenever he has to lead a call, even tho Margie was an expert graphic design specialist before she started dating the manageing partner.

  2. Anonymous

    Good Morning Ladies. What do you think about General Flynn likely to be exonerated? I think as a lawyer reading the new filings it is almost impossible to argue that there wasn’t an insane and overreaching scam by the powers that (were) in the FBI/DOJ. I would be interested to hear from the government/policy wonks how you think this will affect things going forward.

    For those of you that have quit the news the tldr is: Flynn was railroaded by the FBI. Notes that were suppressed during the original proceeding were just unsealed and include just handwritten notes that say: “What is our goal? Truth/Admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute him or get him fired?”Shocking and scary.

    • Anonymous

      I will confess to not really following this except for scanning the headlines. But I hate that a well-respected career military officer leaves to work as a political appointee and then something like this happens. I am certainly not he, but I would never, ever, ever consider even a low-level political appointment (deputy assistant secretary of whatever), service to my country being an important and noble thing to do, but not at this sort of cost. Even if he is exonerated, he has lost a lot in the process.

      • Anonymous

        absolutely he has lost a lot during this and I have the same feeling about politicians/political appointees. who would want to do that?!

      • Anonymous

        I would never consider any sort of public service, in part b/c of things like this. All it takes is one person gunning for you and I feel like you could lose your savings, your house, and perhaps your ability to ever be hired again. And it could be worse: you could also be locked up. Nope, sorry.

        • anon

          question: agree that in this polarized world, being a political appointee is dicey, but aren’t most public servants not politically appointed? Millions of people in federal, state and local administration, all branches of government, military, research, teachers and whatnot. Aren’t these all public service?

    • Anonymous

      I think he’s a smart and powerful man who plead guilty on the advice of good counsel and I don’t really care about any of this. It’s drama manufactured by his new lawyers.

      • Anonymous

        It’s still pretty chilling. I would never work in government and (randomly) I told my husband the other day to never talk to anyone ever without a lawyer, even if he has done nothing wrong, because of things like this. I usually am a cooperative person, but this makes even law-abiding me immensely distrustful.

      • Anonymous

        um, it was a set-up manufactured by the FBI/DOJ. You should be concerned and everyone should be concerned that this sort of overreach happens.

      • anon

        Same. Haven’t been following, don’t care to catch up. Plenty else to concern myself with and we don’t all need to have the same interests.

        • same anon

          I guess I should add that this is normally not my attitude toward things like this. But to preserve my mental health I’ve had to start tuning some stuff out, both big and small.

    • Anonymous

      What is upsetting to me is that the masses will not understand that he is not innocent, but rather that the process did not function as it should have.

    • LSC

      I mean…he chose to lie though. No one forced him to do that. The FBI had information they did not share with him, and he lied without knowing they already knew the truth. The notes are unfortunate, but I don’t see it as exoneration.

      • Anonymous

        I think that there is enough coercive interrogation that 18 USC 1001 becomes almost like motor vehicle laws — you are bound to err and break the law. Be like the mobsters and go with “I do not recall”. Never, ever, ever talk to law enforcement. You don’t know what they are thinking and what their plans for you are. You have everything to lose.

      • Anonymous

        he chose to lie after he was threatened that his son would be indicted….

    • Anon

      Whoa! I had not heard this and it is completely terrifying. I can’t believe they’d be so blatant as to actually write that down, and it suggests to me that it is just the tip of the iceberg. I’m honestly terrified of the prosecutorial system in our country, and I’m a white woman who I realize is coming from a place of privilege.

      • Anon

        I agree with this. I don’t like Flynn at all, and really dislike his politics, but this is absolutely appalling conduct on the part of the FBI/DOJ, and calls into question other prosecutions to me as well.

    • Anonymous

      As someone who works for a foreign government and trusts the country’s intelligence department whole heartedly, the situation reads like a dystopian horror novel.

    • Of Counsel

      Ok – I am sorry but this is not shocking or scary.

      If you know someone has done “A”, and you say: “Sir, have you ever done A?” – that is not a set up. Even if you have proof they have done “A”. You might strategically decide to say: “Sir, here is a document that proves you have done “A” so don’t bother denying it. Let me ask questions about why you did “A”? Who told you to do “A”? It depends on what your end goal is and whether the person you are talking to is someone you want to convict or is someone you are viewing as a potential source.

      This is not some kid who was manipulated. This is a highly competent and educated person who chose to lie, knowing that lying is a crime and eventually pled guilty to that crime.

  3. Lilliet

    I have nothing constructive to comment except I didn’t know it was Thursday until I read the post’s title.

    • Ellen

      At least you can distinguish the days this way! I am very much not thinking of weekdays vs weekends b/c I am cooped up in my apartement by myself, with little differences between the days. My main thing to look forward to is to go out and walk over to Whole Foods, where I can buy some prepared hot chicken or filet mingon, and bring it home for dinner. People all wearing masks is strange, but necessary, in these COVIDIEN times, Dad says and I agree. Myrna got me a nice mask from the Internet, which is bright red, b/c she knows I like that color. It is washeable, with a gauze pad like insert that goes in where the mouth is, so it provides an additional layer of protection when you breath in and out. I see all kind of masks out there and wonder if I should get another one. I think Margie said she bought 10 masks from Etsy. Does anyone know how durable those are?

    • Anonymous

      We have achieved Dowager Countess status: what is this “weekend” of which you speak?

      • Senior Attorney

        I imagine that right about now a whole lot of people are wishing they could join the Dowager Countess in spending “an hour EVERY day” with the children…

    • Anon

      No matter what happens today, this day will be ending with the reunion episode of Parks & Rec that we did not expect and that none of us deserve. That is all.

    • Anony

      My weeks go by in terms of trash day – “It’s seriously trash day again?! Were did the week go?!”

    • Anon

      Every day this week, including Monday, I woke up thinking it was either Friday or Saturday.

    • CHS

      I love that every Saturday Cuomo tweets out the slide from his Powerpoint that only says “Today is Saturday” because we really do all need the reminder.

  4. Hooray!

    Tennis courts in my city are reopening (singles only, but that is what I prefer anyway).

    And they are unchaining the parking lots at parks so that they aren’t just for walking-distance-to-parks people but for all of us.

  5. Strategy mom

    Any suggestions for shorts for people with flat rear ends? Ugh my mom finally told me the jcrew shorts I’ve been wearing for a decade don’t look good on me. Same question for pants.

    • Lilliet

      I think specific recommendations depend on your other shapes involved, pre-kids I had no curves including a flat rear end. I found jeans and shorts with details on the back pockets were really flattering. Like the opposite of how if you’re larger endowed up top the last thing I want is three layers of ruffles across my chest.

    • Ellen

      I can only wish! You are so lucky! I know I would give anything to trade tuchuses with you. But I did learn that people in Brazil love bigger tuchuses (tuchii), but I do not want to move to Brazil just to have men oooogle my tuchus as I walk by. I think that is why when I was dating Gonzalo he liked me, but he liked any pretty girl with a tuchus.

      So Strategy Mom, in your case, you should relish the thought of keeping your flat tuchus, and get skinny jeans or skinny shorts that stay tight even over your flat tuchus. It is better than having loose shorts that do not reveal the tightness of your tuchus, which is something most of us in the hive (Brazilian’s aside) would give anything for! Good luck in your hunt to look great!

    • Anon

      I think shorts are hard on a lot of body types (mine included, that’s for sure) – I would really recommend just going into Nordstrom or another store with a wide selection and just trying on a ton and seeing what you like. It’s not just about looking good to other people – you want to be comfortable and happy with how you look. What ultimately matters is that YOU like the way the shorts fit, not that your mom (or anyone else for that matter) like them.

        • Bette

          i think i would only wear those shorts in front of her going forward.

          Conversely, my mom thought i wore too many skirts in the summer and not enough shorts. She kept passive aggressively (or maybe just aggressively) buying me shorts. I would return them and buy more skirts/dresses which i send her a pic of as well as a cheery note of thanks. I did not wear a pair of shorts in front of her for like five years.

          I genuinely do not understand why people think they can/should comment on your style preferences? Who cares??

      • AnonATL

        Agreed. Shorts are the devil, and when I find a pair that I like and look good on me, I buy them in every color.
        The 3.5″ chino shorts at J Crew factory work for me, but the identical pair at old navy do not because the leg holes are too narrow for my thick thighs.
        I find shopping for shorts really hard as someone with thick thighs and a booty. So many shorts are jean-tight in the legs in order to fit at my waist.
        I cling tight to my unicorn pairs that actually fit.. and also only wear them when I absolutely have to, which is far too often down here in Georgia.

    • Housecounsel

      I know there are some here who think skorts = frump, but I skirt the shorts issue (see what I did there?) with Athleta skorts. I don’t like how I look in most shorts, but I have some drawstring linen ones from Johnny Was and some denim ones from Banana that I like.

      I was just looking at beautiful cotton summer midi dresses at Anthropologie. In my fantasy world I throw these on for working from home.

      • Housecounsel

        P.S. I would also keep wearing shorts around my mother, as short and tight as possible, if she told me mine didn’t look good.

    • Senior Attorney

      Oh my gosh I just spent $150 for a pair of shorts and I can’t believe I did that but they actually make my butt look not completely flat as a pancake, and I will wear them every single day all summer long, so je ne regrette rien. Which I guess means I think you should just try a bunch on until you find the magic pair.

      And also don’t listen to your mom.

  6. NY

    I’m glad that ostensibly lower-risk things are coming back in some parts of the US. But at breakfast today my news feed had an article about Cuomo and New York nursing homes and I had time to read it all the way through and OMG I am in such a stabby frame of mind. I am so relatively unafraid to do things in my life now — but that is because I don’t live or work in a nursing home that is made to take actively sick people. Grocery store en mask? No problem. Actively sick person as my roommate and I’m 80 with underlying conditions — can I call 911? Or go elsewhere? No, b/c now I’ve been exposed and am likely a death magnet myself. This is awful and I hope he is always remembered for this. [And while I’m ranting: shame on NYC’s mayor for being chauffeured to Brooklyn to go walking in a park; take the subway or a bus or stay the F home like everyone else.]

    • Anonymous

      Ok. Seems like a pot stirring rant but sure. Lots of New Yorkers are driving and mayors typically do. Nursing homes are a disaster everywhere.

      • Anonymous

        I took it as “stay at home” applies to everyone (and many will stay at home vs taking transit now), but it grates to have someone take an optional trip and with a driver no less. A car in NYC is a luxury to most people, much less car + taxpayer paid driver. I went to a wedding once where a guy in NYC was talking about his rent and it didn’t seem that crazy until I realized that that was what he paid for a parking space.

      • AIMS

        He lives in a park! He doesn’t need to go to BK to be in a park. It’s insanely tone deaf.

      • Anon

        I’m a Democrat, but De Blasio pisses me off. Before the pandemic, he had a car drive him almost every day from Manhattan to the Park Slope Y. Go to a gym in Manhattan! I’ve been a member at the PS Y and it’s not that great. Also, my husband is a current member, and he says DeB never wipes the sweat off his machines after using them. Gross.

        He also focuses on stupid things, like promising that fireworks on the 4th will happen. No one really cares about that; how about spend the millions of dollars it will cost on useful things like feeding New Yorkers who’ve lost their jobs.

        • Anonymous

          He was giving such bad advise in MARCH about the risks. Can’t the man read? And the funeral thing should have been a respectful address to every religious group that is struggling with this, which includes at least white and black Evangelicals as well as the Hasidic community.

      • Anon

        He let known covid positive nurses go to work at a nursing home, when we know nursing homes are unsanitary on a good day and the staff is often from an underserved demographic that doesn’t often know the value in following rules. He also let covid positive patients in nursing homes. Why are we all sitting home when he’s letting known covid positive patients work with the most vulnerable population, which has resulted in between 20-25% of deaths in NY now? Where did these workers go after work, since they had to make no changes to their routine? It’s crazy.

        • Anon

          I misspoke. I meant 20-25% of deaths are from nursing home residents, as a result of various actions. Letting the covid positive patients in, letting the covid positive healthcare staff in, not making sure the homes were following strict guidelines for control of the virus, etc.

    • LaurenB

      I have a SIL who works in a nursing home (though she is not a health care provider) and she wears a hazmat suit. She lives with my 87 yo FIL and so we’re worried she’ll pass it to him. They are totally keeping distance from one another, not eating together, not using the kitchen together, etc.

    • Anonymous

      Cuomo went crazy with power. He was awful pro corona, he’s shown to be awful during all of this. Speaking in a calm tone of voice on tv has people thinking he’s doing great things and it’s just not true.

      Deblasio needs to go, he’s a fascist. His comments about the Jewish community were anti-semitic and appalling.

      • Anonymous

        My first DeBlasio memory was that he ate pizza with a fork, which was shocking. My impression of him has not improved with time.

        • Anonymous

          But that’s just it — it’s not “the Jewish community” and I feel that everyone knows it. NYPD helped with that event and yet arrested people at that event. It is for one very small segment of NYC’s Jewish population, but go ahead and blame all Jews. But don’t participate in the event, which is tacitly allowing it and helping make that situation happen. More shame to DeBlasio — don’t help have it if you don’t want it to occur.

        • AIMS

          You do realize that the Hasidic community in Williamsburg (& specifically the one associated with this rabbi) is not the Jewish community as a whole in NY, right? Like not even a little bit the same unless you are totally ignorant of the who and what of it all.

          • Anonymous

            This. A million times this. Most NYC Jews I know are reform, possibly very reform, possibly only culturally Jewish, but go ahead and paint them with the broadest possible brush. I would find the mistake more explainable (not really) in some place where people are unfamiliar with the variants of the Jewish faith (faiths?), but not in NYC, which is the most Jewish place possible in the US. This is shameful and completely inexcusable.

          • Lily

            I agree he tarred the Jewish community with too broad of a brush. He should have said the Hasidic community, not the Jewish community. But I’m not going to call someone anti-semitic because of that degree of lapse, particularly in this stressful environment. Let’s not kid ourselves, the Hasidic community is flouting the law over and over again, just like they do with vaccinations, putting everyone else (especially healthcare workers) at risk, because they either think they are above the law, are seriously misinformed because of the bubble they live in, or just think that god will save them from coronavirus and everyone else be d*mned.

          • Anonymous

            Yes I do. And so does every New Yorker who heard his comment. And maybe Jewish leaders should be louder at denouncing the Hasidim as well.

          • anon

            New Yorker here and I don’t know anyone (including my Jewish friends) who thought he was talking about the Jewish community at large. We all know he was referencing the Hasidic community

        • LaurenB

          Everyone gets that he’s talking about that specific, ultra-Orthodox community in Williamsburg. Everyone understands he’s not talking about the entire New York Jewish community, the vast majority of whom think that the ultra-Orthodox folks holding big public funerals is completely nuts. There is a time to be the persecuted Jewish community, and this ain’t it.

          • Anonymous

            I don’t think that that is how is statement is received though. I live in flyover country and it is reported generally that he is blaming “the Jews.” Most of the world reads headlines and has so little interaction with actual Jewish people that they don’t realize that there are any subsets. If they see people wearing black hats, they might as well be mistaken for being Amish.

          • AIMS

            I think the problem is that not everyone does get the distinction, so the take away in the rest of the world is ‘mayor tells Jewish community to stop with the 2500 person funerals’. I don’t think he’s anti Semitic, but the statement was a problem and anyone with half a brain in NYC, never mind a mayor who should think about these things, would know better. So I guess to clarify, I don’t think he’s actually anti-Semitic, just incredibly idiotic.

          • Seventh Sister

            I grew up in a rural area of a blue state with very very few Jewish people. When I moved to LA, I was driving on a Friday night when a little kid in a black hat ran in front of my car. My first thought was, “Jesus, what is some AMISH KID doing in the middle of Los Angeles?” It took me a minute to realize he wasn’t Amish, even though I’d read a bunch of Chaim Potok books as a kid. People who live in areas with small Jewish populations wouldn’t necessarily realize that the mayor was talking about a single group.

        • anon

          The Hasidic community is not synonymous with the Jewish community and as a New Yorker DeBlasio should know better. I’m not Jewish and I found his tweet offensive.

  7. Best wrap dress ever

    I have gotten into this habit:

    Wake up; take shower; work in fuzzy robe while hair dries.

    The fuzzy robe is the best wrap dress ever. Unlike my DVF’s it isn’t sheer. It stays wrapped. It is washable. IT HAS ON-SEAM POCKETS. I think it was $30 or so at Marshall’s 12 or so years ago. It is the best wrap dress ever. And it is my morning work attire. [I only put on clothes b/c I have to take the trash / recycling out daily.]

    • cat socks

      Currently in a robe as well. It’s from the Joe Boxer brand and I got it at Kmart years ago.

    • Anonymous

      I have one (VS Pink?) that dates back to college and it’s still going strong…

    • Anony

      +1 Love my Simply Vera fluffy soft bathrobe that my sister bought me while I was in college! Can’t believe how well stuff from the early 2000’s holds up better than stuff nowadays.

    • Formerly Lilly

      Mine is a black watch tartan flannel robe from the men’s department at LLBean, circa 2011.

      • Anonymous

        Mine is black “velvet” from Natori that my husband calls the choir robe.

  8. Anon

    My boyfriend of two years and I decided to call it quits last night. We live together and love each other but just don’t want the same things and that’s unlikely to change. I want to know where I stand in the relationship and have an opportunity for marriage at some point, and he’s fine being casual.

    We are only staying together part time because he goes to see his children, but this is super hard alone and being unable to distract myself. Please give me any good break up tips.

    I know it’s for the best long term but in the short term it is not fun.

    • Anon

      No tips, but future you will thank current you for doing this. If you want marriage and kids, then someone who wants to be casual after two years is the wrong person for you.

      • anon

        I agree with all of this. My breakup tips are the standby of ice cream and chick flicks with a side of some intense exercise. Hugs, breakups are hard but it’s really brave and strong of you to do what you know is right for you in the long term even though its hard in the short term.

      • Monday

        +1, the word “casual” stuck out to me, when you’ve been together 2 years and are living together! F that.

        I find that a complete, clean break is the fastest way to move forward. Resist the temptation to keep up the same level of communication and intimacy, even in these insane circumstances! I think you’d be totally justified asking him to move out, but know that may not work for various reasons. Until that can happen, isolate from him as much as possible and increase your contact with friends and family instead. I know this sounds horrible, but I did it myself during the awful interim period between when my ex-husband said he was leaving me and when he actually moved out. I was just sort of…in a different room at all times, quietly talking to other people in my life, and giving very short answers whenever we had to speak to each other.

        Major kudos for making this hard decision at an exceptionally hard time.

        • Anonymous

          Right?! I would want some sort of rep and warranty that if I were to move in with someone, they would not view that as casual. Or at least state it on the record!

          • Anon

            Op here- yeah I moved in 6 months ago thinking that was the next step. Then last night, he said he just wants to keep it casual. I was like I don’t know what that means???? I’m not pushing for marriage or engagement, but I’d like to think I stand higher than casual.

            Truthfully, I think he’s avoiding introducing me to his kids and worried about that. They are all teenagers. He said something like well the experts say not to introduce them to a bunch of women….he has not even told them I exist.

            Anyways, it all strikes me very much as the kids are in charge and while I wholeheartedly agree they are important- it’s just too long and making me too insecure.

          • Monday

            You are not “a bunch of women”! And they can’t be “in charge” of this decision if they don’t even know you exist! He’s keeping his cohabiting partner a secret?! “Casual” is for someone you have drinks with every couple of weeks!

            I’m just fuming on your behalf. Sorry.

          • Anon

            I know it’s so hard now, but given what you’re saying, you dodged such a bullet. This isn’t the kind of person you’d want to be in a committed relationship with. You’ve been together two years and his kids don’t know you exist? What? Also – they’re teenagers – it’s one thing to be cautious introducing a new partner to younger kids, or even in the first 3-6 months depending on the timeframe, but what?! Two YEARS?

          • Anonymous

            Oops – anon at 10:44 here. Clearly you are broken up already, I’m sorry – that was an insensitive knee jerk reaction.

          • No-Face

            WOW. I am so glad you’ve broken up with this guy. What a piece of work! CASUAL WHEN YOU LIVE TOGETHER?!! It’s outrageous, honestly.

            I hope that your next relationship is with a decent man who values you. You do not need to wait around for years while some guy decides whether he will deign to marry you.

          • Anon

            I’m so sorry for you. You sound like someone who tries to see the good in everyone and understand where they are coming from, but this turd isn’t worth it.

            Normal, functional people continue to move forward in the relationship: introducing the person to friends, parents, children, discussing the future, working out long-term plans, engagement, marriage (if the latter two are what they want, and if not, being abundantly clear that marriage is no on the table).

          • Anon

            Op here- anon at 11:22- that is exactly it. I will bend over backwards to accommodate in a relationship until I have nothing left.

            Thanks to everyone for the advice so far. All things I need to hear today.

    • Anonymous

      Oh I’m so sorry. You’re right, particularly hard without the usual distractions. I wish I had wisdom to share but just sending hugs.

    • The Original ...

      Future You is going to be so proud of Current You! Since there is no going out, what about making a list of all of the things Future You is going to do or may want to do that are now back on the table since you’re not tied to someone “living together yet casual?” Maybe celebrating your new life is more helpful than going down the wallowing rabbit hole? Or, if that feels like toxic positivity, find some sad songs and movies and go all the way down and let yourself feel it and process it so you can heal. Either way is totally respectable!

    • Anon

      This is advice you may not need, but no s3x with the ex. If you are at all tempted, don’t do it. It just prolongs things. It produces literal bonding hormones and makes you waver in your resolve. Ask me how I know. (If we had emojis here, this is where I’d use a facepalm.)

    • Senior Attorney

      Congratulations to you for this smart, brave, hard decision!

      I know I say this every time, but the aphorisms that got me through my divorce were “this time next year things will be SO MUCH BETTER” (that turned out to be true), “the only way out is through” (also true), and “I just have to feel like this until I don’t feel like this any more” (yup, true).

      And I second the advice to make as clean a break as possible. No sex for sure and ixnay on the iendshipfray.

  9. Anonymous

    Would you go to the dentist for a routine checkup and cleaning next week? The appointment I scheduled 6 months ago is next week and my dentist’s office texted to say they were open and taking appropriate precautions so this could be done safely. I was planning to go but then I saw a post yesterday about how dental work produces aerosols and it got me wondering if I should reschedule.

    Also, I look forward to the day when every seemingly simple decision isn’t so fraught. This is exhausting.

    • The Original ...

      I would not unless something was hurting or I had super bad breath or super inflamed gums (as those would indicate that something was wrong and could not wait). Otherwise, if everything has been unremarkable, I would wait and just be more mindful of my own hygiene routine until it was safe again.

    • blueberries

      There is no way I’d go for a dental cleaning next week. In particular, I wouldn’t go to a dentist who is generally open for cleanings right now, which suggests that they’re not taking this very seriously.

      • Doodles

        In my state, dentists can reopen for all procedures (with appropriate precautions) on May 1.

      • Anon

        This seems a little unfair, since non-essential medical procedures are now allowed in many places. My state still has a stay at home order and has not opened most things, but the order was modified last week to allow non-essential procedures (including dental cleanings) to proceed if the provider has appropriate PPE and can practice social distancing (there’s no waiting in the waiting room, they call you in from the car).

        • blueberries

          Allowed doesn’t make it low risk, though. For me, the risk of becoming a vector and getting others sick isn’t outweighed by the tiny benefit of getting a cleaning exactly 6 months after my last cleaning.

          The New York Times had an interesting graphic last month showing that dentists are at high risk of contracting covid on the job. Someone who is doing a lot of cleanings is more likely to contract the virus.

          • Anon

            I agree that you don’t need a cleaning precisely every 6 months, but I guess I just feel like the virus will be circulating until we have a vaccine (likely 2-3 years at best) and . skipping cleanings for years is not a good idea (and I’m sure dentists would agree with that). As states begin to open, we’re going to have more transmission in the next few months than we do currently. It’s not just about protecting myself – I’m so much more likely to give the dentist the virus once I’m back at work and my kids are back in daycare than if I went now when my whole family has been self-isolating except for the grocery store for 7 weeks.

      • LaurenB

        Or, the dentist who is open for cleanings is trying to keep his business afloat and his employees employed.

    • Anonymous

      I’d go. I think that if you don’t go now, you may not be able to get in in quite some time, which is trading risk for risk. In that case, I’d go in now (b/c when can you go risk-free? 2022?). THB, I think that both risks are low, but I’ve seen what happens in older people who have a history of deferred dental work and it is a hard, painful, and expensive life.

    • Anonymous

      In comparison to many of the people posting here, I’m a lax and wild rebellious risk-taker with all this virus stuff. And no, i wouldn’t go. Mostly because there is no genuine necessity to get your teeth cleaned on a rigid 6-month schedule. It’s a norm we’ve somehow fallen into, but not a medical necessity. If it were a biopsy or med check or something, yes. Dental cleaning, no.

      • Anon

        +1. I didn’t have dental insurance in law school so I didn’t get cleanings for the whole time. I was kind of embarrassed to for a cleaning after so long but it’s fine. If you have pain or something that’s different but you can live without regular cleanings.

      • anne-on

        I had hyper-emesis during pregnancy and could not bear someone being in my mouth at that time as my gag reflex was super sensitive so I brushed quickly and sporadically and didn’t do any check ups. I puked constantly for 9 months wasn’t a good brusher/flosser, and then didn’t go back until my kiddo was maybe 3-4 months old? (this is not great, admittedly, but those first baby months were hard).
        So maybe a year total from the last time I saw a dentist? Everything was absolutely fine. I was very worried about my tooth enamel – also totally fine as were my teeth/gums in general. I’d wait it out a bit.

        • Anon

          Don’t beat yourself up about it! I didn’t even have hyperemesis but I skipped the dentist during pregnancy and didn’t go back until my kid was about 16 months old.

      • Anonymous

        I go to kind of an iconoclastic dentist and I only go once a year because he says that’s all I need to do. My teeth and gums are in good shape and healthy. He told me that the every-six-months thing is not research-based and is just a convention that’s been around a long time and goes pretty much unchallenged. Dentists like it because they can charge for it and insurers will pay; it’s so ingrained in us that we need to go every six months that we don’t stop to ask ourselves if we really feel it’s warranted. If people are not having gum problems like bleeding or pain, once a year is fine.

      • Anon

        I don’t think every 6 months is strictly necessary but how long do you wait? At some point it does become an issue especially if the entire population skips out on preventative care. That’s my current struggle. I don’t see any magic in 6 months versus 9 months

        • Anonymous

          Two companies are saying they will have vaccines for healthcare workers this Fall, with a roll out to the public in early 2021. If that is the case then starting this Fall, the risk of transmission will drop over time.

    • LaurenB

      It’s a lot of decision fatigue, isn’t it? Personally I would not go to the dentist for a routine cleaning, but I would go if I were in pain or had a problem – that is what they are there for.

    • Anonymous

      It depends on your area. My dentist isn’t taking routine appointments, but if they were, I would go as long as I didn’t have to sit in the waiting room. Like, let me text or call you when I arrive and I can wait in my car until you’re ready for me. I trust the office to keep the actual exam rooms sanitized.

      Maybe a little off topic, but I hope that the procedures that doctor’s offices are putting in place will carry forward after this is over. I catch colds easily. It’s really frustrating to go for routine appointments – which are meant to support my health! – and then get stuck sitting among people with colds for 20+ minutes because the doctors always seem to be running behind (even first appointment of the day!). If you’re running late, I can wait outside!

    • anon a mouse

      No, I just called to cancel/reschedule mine for next week. It stinks because I’m ready for a good cleaning but not worth the risk to me. They are rescheduling for the end of summer and I have higher confidence about keeping that appointment. If nothing else, PPE should be in better supply by then for everyone.

    • Anon

      I mean, I hate the dentist, so would absolutely capitalize on the ability to get a free pass out of this one, but, I would go if you have concerns about your teeth or have a history of dental issues, I would err on the side of going, especially as we have no idea how long this will last. If you otherwise have a clean dental history and no concerns, I’d feel comfortable pushing it off.

    • Anonymous

      Looks like I’m the outlier here, but I would go provided that you’re in a low-risk group. It’s your own germs being aerosolized during the procedure. I’m also in a state that is “full steam ahead” for dentists starting May 1.

      • Anon

        It’s not just your germs, though- once aerosols are generated they can stay in the air for hours unless the dentists have installed some sort of air handling system to make sure air is turning over regularly. I’ve regularly gone a year or two between cleanings when I’ve moved and had to find a new dentist and had no problems, so if you have healthy teeth and no complaints, I wouldn’t worry about a few extra months to give dentists more time to work out better PPE, better procedures to manage aerosols, etc. On the other hand, if you really have something wrong with your teeth and your dentist can reassure you that they’re doing specific things to manage aerosols, keeping the number of patients per day low, etc., then you should probably go, just recognize that dentistry falls into a much higher risk category than most other medical procedures.

        • Anon

          “Better procedures to manage aerosols” is not a thing that dentists are going to be able to implement in the next few months or even years. There are “negative pressure” rooms at hospitals, but they’re incredibly expensive to build and all they do is contain aerosols inside the room, which wouldn’t do any good if multiple patients need to go into the room for dental procedures. All dentists already have and use PPE, and patients can’t wear PPE during a cleaning so I don’t understand that comment either. If your state is opening up soon, now may actually be the lowest risk time to go. I don’t believe dental procedures are going to change significantly in the next year, and we will see an increase in cases as more things open.

          • Anon

            Well I’m definitely not an expert, but it does sound like there are ways they can reduce aerosol generation, like described in the link below. Plus anything that increases air flow relative to the number of aerosols generated will reduce the risk, which could be achieved in a number of ways. I agree that the virus isn’t going away for a long time and if you have a real need to go to the dentist you should, just recognize that it’s higher risk than most other medical procedures and there’s a good reason to keep dentists limited when other things open.
            https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/16408230/controlling-aerosols
            CDC has guidance on this too

        • anon8

          I got an email from my dentist yesterday that they are installing an air purification system that turns over the air every 4-6 minutes. Patients are to wait in the car and will receive a text when it’s time to come in for the appointment.

    • Jeffiner

      I had a cleaning scheduled for this week. I’ve had periodontal disease and get cleanings every 3 months instead of 6. I still told my dentist I wasn’t comfortable coming in and rescheduled until the end of May. He was fine with it and had no trouble finding an open spot for me.

    • small town girl

      I think this really depends on where you are. My home county has had 4 cases in total and all were in March. They have not had a new case in over a month. If I was in a place like that, yes I would go to a dentist appointment.

    • Anon

      The aerosol comment yesterday scared me too, because my high risk (70 year, overweight, high blood pressure) dad has to go to the dentist next week for a non-optional procedure (he has a cracked tooth). What I found was somewhat comforting. Nobody really knows if the virus can transmit through aerosols. It’s considered possible, but most experts seem to believe most transmission is via droplets. The virus also can’t linger in aerosol form for more than a few hours, so you have exposure to the dentist (who is wearing a mask and gloves, and obviously won’t be working if they have any symptoms) and maybe a few patients who sat in the chair before you, but you don’t have exposure to every patient in the last week. The CDC says there have been no known outbreaks in dental clinics. My conclusion was that high-risk people should probably only go for necessary procedures, but as a lower risk person I would feel comfortable going for a cleaning.

      • AnonBioPhD

        “Nobody really knows if the virus can transmit through aerosols. It’s considered possible, but most experts seem to believe most transmission is via droplets.” You’re not technically wrong, but I feel the need to clarify that this scientific uncertainty doesn’t favor droplets>aerosols. In fact, a LOT of experts have been favoring the aerosol model strongly, while a few are insistent that until we have incontrovertible evidence of aerosol transmission, droplets need to be the only message. The truth is likely both – droplets are definitely infectious and also aerosol/air-borne exposure can and probably does happen. Only time will tell. Personally, my scientific interpretation (having followed this data for the last two months) is that aerosol transmission is very, very, very likely. Also – it has been shown that aerosol SARS-COV-2 does not degrade in infectivity over at least 16 hours (and no longer time-points were taken!) – which basically means that dilution and/or settling is your only protection in a closed space.

    • Anon

      I absolutely wouldn’t. In fact my dentist called me last week to say that they were canceling my upcoming appointment and I was like great, I forget I even had an appointment!

    • anon

      American Dental Association guidance is still to postpone non-essential dental appointments. Why risk it?

    • Anonanonanon

      Don’t go and get a waterpik if you don’t have one and are concerned.

  10. Ribena

    UK brands Oasis and Warehouse have officially called it quits. I’m sad, I have only recently become fans of their clothing. I’ve had a tab open on a lovely Edwardian style blouse from warehouse for about a month… guess I can close that now then.

    • Cb

      I’m not sure who will be open after this ordeal. Even John Lewis says some stores won’t reopen, and if John Lewis can’t keep it together. Not sure what they’re going to do with that massive new shopping centre, it’s not like they can repurpose it for something.

      • Ribena

        Maybe they’ll give all the restaurants double the space at the same rent, just to fill it with something? Our John Lewis has been struggling for ages because of the building work – but I’ve seen haberdashery sales are way up, which might persuade them to move haberdashery out of its windowless cave.

        • Cb

          Ugh, it used to be such a lovely shopping experience and they have really suffered with the construction. I do think the cafe remodel was a good one though.

      • anon

        I agree with this, I’m very curious to see how this plays out long-term but I suspect landlords will end up reducing rent or something because most stores and restaurants aren’t going to be able to continue to operate in the same fashion and I’m not sure what will happen to all that real estate, sit empty with no one paying any rent?

    • TheElms

      Is it for certain they will close entirely? I don’t know but is there no UK equivalent of going through bankruptcy and coming out the other side as a functioning company?

      • Cb

        There is, but I think they’ve been in trouble for quite some time and might not find a buyer. Other shops are announcing closures as well, Cath Kidston, one of the big department stores Debenham’s.

        • Ribena

          It’s just come in my breaking news that the administrators have given up trying to find a buyer.

    • Aquae Sulis

      That’s a shame. I haven’t been in a Warehouse for a long time, but I do like Oasis.

    • Anonymous

      When I read this I thought it was about the band Oasis and I was so confused – didn’t they break up years ago?

    • Houda

      When LK Bennette went bust, I assumed no one would be able to buy their clothes.
      It’s been months now and they still do outlet sales, sample sales, and all that.
      Maybe your blouse will be now at a steep discount

          • Anonymous

            Yeah, the owner of a factory they work with bought them and they put out at least one new season. I have not checked since lockdown.

  11. Anonnnn

    As I expected, my firm is reopening our office and expects us all to show up. The cases have not started to drop in our area. I can do 100% of my work remotely as all in-person civil proceedings are still suspended. Based on my calendar, I do not have a single thing to do in person until the end of June at the earliest. A coworker lives in a household full of people who work in nursing homes, so it is just a matter of when we’re exposed, not if.

    If I go back, I can go straight into my private office and shut the door without leaving. But what about the bathroom? There is a single bathroom for multiple law firms on my floor. I may just continue to WFH in violation of the firm’s orders.

    Any advice on staying safe if I go back to the office?

    • The Original ...

      Maybe you could ask HR about WFH until or unless there is a meeting in the office that cannot occur remotely? If not, there is not much you can do except what everyone is doing, which is to wear a mask, to wash hands often, and to social distance. You could also theoretically put a sign on your door to keep people from coming in either to chat or to clean so that you keep your office as safe as possible, but that might upset the boss.

    • Anonymous

      Wear a mask, wash your hands, and keep sanitizer at the door to your office when you return.

    • Anonymous

      Do you live near the office? Before we went remote I dressed for work and went in really early every day and worked until everyone else came in and then left with a briefcase of work and finished it at home. If I had a client meeting or other in person meeting I went back in. I also dropped in over the weekend for a few hours like I usually do. No one noticed.

      • Anonnnn

        This is a really good idea actually! I might do that so I am technically complying with the firm’s policy. I won’t even need to take the briefcase of work home because our files are 100% electronic.

    • Anonymous

      Wash your hands before and after going to the bathroom. Don’t touch your head while in there. Don’t put your face near the toilet bowl. Avoid the break room and observe good hygiene if you use it. Avoid in-person meetings. Repeat.

    • Pure Imagination

      I will be in a similar boat before too long, which worries me because I have a very long and crowded public transit commute, our office is a semi open layout, it is cleaned properly very rarely or never (judging by how gross it looks on a good day), and there is one bathroom shared by multiple companies. There is also no HVAC system because it is a historic building. I’m not sure what I will do besides wear a mask and advocate for additional work from home for myself. Can you wear a mask at all times within the office as a visible signal?

    • Anonymous

      I would be vigilant about washing hands and carrying a towel out of the bathroom for opening handles, etc. And distancing.

      FWIW, if your coworker has been home this whole time and has yet to become sick (or has been sick and has recovered), you should be fine, especially if you aren’t in proximity.

      Also: bring a lunch that you can eat cold or carry in a thermos; if a cold lunch, bring those re-usable ice packs so you can keep it in your office.

    • blueberries

      You already know this, but it makes no sense to have people come back in person when their jobs can be done at home and doing so risks having employees out sick when your work that must be done in person resumes. I would strongly consider continuing to work from home.

      If you do go back, consider hand sanitizing whenever you get to your desk, allowing no one in your office, and also using disinfecting wipes on you high touch items.

      • Anon

        Check your state’s order. My state’s reopening plans continue to say that those who can work from home must be allowed to do so.

    • Casper

      From the experience of someone who has worked in office in a law firm this entire time, here are some things not to do:
      1) do not treat your coworkers like lepers who are about to infect you at any moment
      2) do not grill your coworker who’s family members work in a nursing home about those family members’ disinfecting process (this happened to my coworker who’s daughter works in the ER). It’s none of your business and I’m betting that those family members know proper procedures better than you do
      3) do not treat your coworkers like children who do not know how to wash their hands and practice proper hygiene

      • Anonymous

        Actually, whether her co-workers are going to give her the virus is very much her business. Everyone should be asking these questions until HR gives up and decides to let everyone work from home.

        • Casper

          Right, but make it the firm’s problem, not the individual’s. It’s one thing for HR to approach an employee with healthcare worker family members and work out a plan to mitigate risk, but it’s quite another for every employee to interrogate their coworkers. The first is smart and necessary, the second is harassment

      • Anon

        This. I understand you’re scared about the virus, but you also need to be careful here – you don’t want to put yourself in a position to lose your job (or maybe you don’t care – in which case, do what you will)

        • Anonnnn

          I happen to know that last fiscal year my billables brought in more revenue than any other associate in the firm by far – and that was when I was pregnant or on maternity leave the whole year. I was also the only profitable associate in my office. The other associates were only billing at half or 3/4 of their hours target before the pandemic broke out. It would hurt their own pockets to fire me.

          My understanding is that everyone kept their doors closed and used email and the phone for all communications, so it’s really just the bathroom and common areas that are the risk.

          • Anonymous

            this is so frustrating, then why do they want to make you all go back??? arghhh. we’ve started tentative plans of going back but with no start date in mind – more of just general prep and talking about staggered schedules, only the most important in-person employees going back, etc.

          • Anon

            Okay, great, but still, if I were a co-worker of yours and you were interrogating me about my personal health information, I’d report you to HR so fast. Let HR deal with it – it’s on them.

          • Anonymous

            That was last year when you were profitable. This year — is that true? Or is it the restructuring / bankruptcy associate? The busy person in 2020 will stay. I’m not sure about anyone else TBH.

          • anon

            Are you still busy and billing a lot? Because if not, then no, the firm would not be hurting their pockets to fire you. I say this as someone who has been extremely profitable for my firm but is still very nervous about job security right now because nothing is certain. Also if you did any of these things to me, I would definitely complain to HR or a partner. The firm probably doesn’t want an associate around who is potentially setting them up for litigation by another associate. Leave it to HR.

    • Anon

      This may out me, but I have been saying for a long time that any plan to reopen the economy should include mandatory WFH for those who can. The very last thing to happen should be to bring currently-remote workers back into the office.

      • Anonymous

        I wouldn’t want WFH to be mandatory even though I am WFH now (with 2 kids homeschooling and on multiple zooms daily) because I don’t have a better option. Come summer, I will have a sitter some even if camps are closed and there is no way in h*ll I will WFH when I could work productively in a quiet office vs a bustling 2-BR apartment. This would be very unfair to parents.

        • Anonnnn

          I personally think WFH should be the default to reduce the number of people in the office, while allowing some people to come in if that works for them. My husband’s workplace is like that. There are very few people in the office. They rearranged where those people are located so they don’t need to cross paths as much.

    • Housecounsel

      What is your firm’s justification for everyone having to be in the office? If it is just for show for the clients, please know this client thinks it’s ridiculous. Was there a risk-benefit analysis? Even if the risk is relatively low, what is the benefit?

      • Pure Imagination

        I think the burden needs to be on the employers to prove that it’s both necessary and safe for remote-capable workers to come back. I could point to a lot of benefits of me working from home, including societal and public health benefits, but what are the benefits of me being in the office during a pandemic?

        • Anonymous

          that’s fine, your employer is happy to lay you off and save some $$. there’s lots of people out there looking for jobs and who won’t be in their snowflake bubbles.

          • Pure Imagination

            Considering I just helped us win a huge contract and that all our work can be done effectively and efficiently from home, I doubt that. Nice to see the name-calling lives on though.

          • Anonymous

            people with concerns aren’t snowflakes. otherwise lets just call all those anti-stay-at-home protesters snowflakes too. they seriously b tt hurt over there!

        • Anonymous

          Yes but per your standards it won’t be safe until there is a vaccine. And they can’t wait years.

          • Pure Imagination

            Not necessarily. I think that a lot of us with high-risk conditions will feel safer once testing is robust and new cases are declining (and once we have more information about whether having COVID once confers immunity). We’re already making a lot of progress.

          • Anon

            Pure Imagination said all her work can be done just fine from home, so in this particular instance they could wait years and allow WFH until there’s a vaccine.

          • Anonymous

            Way to go to the extreme. I don’t think we need to wait until a vaccine. Yeah, I’d like to see at least a treatment or two that was effective, but I’m dubious. Honestly, I’d settle for at least when proper masks and Lysol wipes are available as much as you want or need. And when the cases in my area aren’t still climbing like crazy each and every single darn day. That’s just common sense.

            That’s not even the nuances that I think are hurt when you mandate with a broad brush. How is my workplace going to ensure proper precautions of 6 feet: How are elevators being managed? Distance in hallways? And not everyone has the luxury of their own office. What about our “hotel” offices and open cube plan account for about half of our staff? My husband works in a trendy “loft” setting, etc. etc..

        • anon

          I don’t think this is unreasonable but in reality I think this would put a lot of people on the chopping block

      • Anonnnn

        Who knows?! The clients started working from home before we did! Plus, my office line simultaneously calls my cell and I can access email anyone, so no one can actually tell whether I’m home or not. No client is visiting our office. The depositions are all by Zoom.

        The partners only relented to WFH because of the stay at home orders. (When I raised that the firm should have a plan for when the SAH orders were issued, my boss scoffed. We were subject to the orders within a week of that conversation.)

        We are in states with pro-reopening Governors, so they are reopening.

  12. Vicky Austin

    Cases are falling day over day in my state for 3 days running! Clawing our way out one day at a time.

  13. What a day already!

    Nothing like waking up on your 40th birthday and bursting into tears after something happened at work that ordinarily would not even remotely bother you, which leads you to realize that you haven’t taken your anti-depressant all week and are also supposed to start your period. WHOOPS! Eating ALL the CBD to level myself out and try to be productive today.

    Hope y’all are having a better start to your day than mine (although I am already starting to be able to laugh about it . . .)

    • anon

      I feel you- last week I did exactly all of that except the birthday! Eating your treats sounds good (I went for all the chocolate) and I would recommend a long call with family who let you whine & cry.

    • Ses

      Happy Birthday! Hope it gets better and there are some nice treats in store for the end of your day.

    • anne-on

      Happy birthday!!
      And uh, yea, I forgot my afternoon doses of my anti-depressant for 4-5 days in a row. Realized when I was about to kill my husband for clearing his throat too loudly that I reaaaallly shouldn’t skip doses during a pandemic….

    • Anon

      We have a relative who is also turning 40 today…if you are one and the same, hello, HBD and we will be making a chocolate cake on your behalf when we Facetime later today!!

    • OP

      Thanks everyone!! I am feeling a bit better, but my brain is clearly not firing on all cylinders. I needed to get something urgent out today, and now that I have done that I am taking the rest of the day off (and I had already taken tomorrow off).

      My plan is to have some real champagne tonight and watch the Parks and Rec reunion today and basically veg on the couch for the rest of the day as the weather here is nasty.

      Anon at 11:34 – I am not your relative, but I hope your relative has a wonderful birthday as well!

  14. anon

    I am in a huge slump. In fact, I think I’ve fallen squarely into depression during the past week. My thoughts have been very dark and I want to sleep all the time. DH doesn’t get it; just keeps saying how grateful he is for our good health and home and time with the kids and blah blah blah. As if I’m not grateful for those things, too? Why is it so hard for him to understand that one can feel grateful and still feel really effing depressed? The stress and uncertainty are really getting to me. So many people are suffering. I don’t quite know what to do to pull myself out of this.

    • The Original ...

      Would it be dangerous for you to let yourself walk the path of darkness just to see what’s there and maybe let it remove the fear of what might be there? If so, it’s time to seek support via telehealth and maybe a lifeline or prevention hotline. Your husband may be well meaning but toxic positivity is a thing and maybe it’s helpful to consider that you are each processing this experience too differently to understand one another?

      • anon

        We are processing this situation very differently. This isn’t the first time it’s been a problem in our marriage. We’ve gotten better at dealing with it over the years. Unfortunately, I am finding that my weaknesses are on full display during this lockdown. So I end up feeling like he’s the “better person,” while I’m the one who can’t get her sh!t together. But yeah, agree that he sometimes switches into toxic positivity mode, which I find infuriating.

    • Anonymous

      i’m sorry you feel this way. it’s really hard and almost impossible to discuss the situation with anyone who doesn’t feel the same. The side in favor of the lockdown ostensibly has the moral high ground but they are missing the other side which is extremely real human suffering.

      • Anonymous

        You can both be in favor of staying home and suffering mental health issues your self and have sympathy for others. No need to start an inflammatory side track on her thread.

        OP you can get help for depression. Call your doctor today.

      • Anonymous

        The lockdown isn’t causing the suffering, the virus is. We are losing more Americans every day than in 9.11. And our government has not done a great job of keeping us safe. Not at any level. Someone should have dusted off the JEB era pandemic response plan and updated it, not fired the NSC team with the relevant expertise, and actually taken the lead in coordinating across the country. Instead we have a patchwork of state, local and charitable efforts with insufficient support from the federal government. If you want to blame someone for the lockdown being unnecessarily long put the blame on the virus denying party where it belongs.

      • Anonymous

        I think most people can acknowledge that there is “extremely real human suffering” on both sides. And sadly that suffering exists to some extent with or without lockdown as this virus is here. To remove the state of lockdown wouldn’t change the fact that horrible things are happening all around us and people don’t feel happy or safe. It in fact could bring the illness and death toll much closer to home. We’d all love for this to go away but the more it spreads in our communities, the harder it is to ignore. If anything, we’re all in this together and for the vast majority of people it does suck.

      • Anon

        How do you know the poster is suffering because of lockdown? I struggle with dark thoughts that have to do with how many people I know are going to die from the virus, which would be worse without lockdown.

        I think you’re projecting your own feelings on OP

    • Anon,

      It’s ok to have days where the unprecedented events unfolding around us are overwhelming. Get tons of sleep, sit outside in the sun for a bit, and take a teeny walk. Is there someone other than your husband you can talk to?

    • Anonymous

      Here are some more ideas — can you do anything to reduce the stress/uncertainty? Unplug from the news as much as possible, exercise to reduce anxiety, take a long bath (and a break from being around other people) every day, keep a regular sleep schedule as much as possible, spend some time outdoors. Or wallow for a few days and have a good cry! So many of us are sad right now. As others have said, you can contact your doctor.

      • Housecounsel

        These are great suggestions, Anon at 10:22. For me, stopping the scrolling (except here!) and being outside are key. But I am also on antidepressants. Please do not hesitate to call your doctor. Everyone is suffering, but there might be a way to minimize yours with medication.

  15. Chassetete

    I posted recently about applying for a job last weekend on a company site and then later seeing the same post on Linkedin by a recruiter and applying. The recruiter got in touch with a description of the job plus salary range info, I responded saying I would like us to chat, this was on Monday. But that same evening, the company responded with a regret, I was disappointed of course. Fast forward, today the recruiter has agreed to a brief Zoom video call tomorrow. When I posted about this the first time on this site, most people said I should be upfront with the recruiter about also applying on the company site and to ask him if it a “retained” search. I now know not to apply for the same job twice. But for tomorrow I am wondering how to approach the call with the recruiter given I got a direct rejection from the company site. Advice?

    • The Original ...

      “Thanks so much for meeting with me! Before we begin, I wanted to let you know that I accidentally applied for the position twice, once with you and once directly. Does that impact my ability to be in consideration for the role?” Then all you can do is listen, thank them for the information, and either let them continue the call or ask that they hold your resume for future positions, thank them for their time, and hang up. Fingers crossed for you!

    • Anonymous

      I would be upfront with the recruiter about the double application and rejection and take the opportunity to steer the conversation toward a discussion of other opportunities you might want to pursue. Don’t let the recruiter be embarrassed by putting you forward after you’ve been rejected without knowing it. If he/she thinks you might survive the process with some spin, let them take that project on knowingly and strategically.

    • Samantha

      I would not even inform the recruiter. Just interview as though you didn’t get rejected. No downside, and the upside is a possible next interview if this one goes well (and maybe provides some info that is not visible in your resume).

  16. Weight Loss / WW / Intuitive Eating

    Has anyone had long term weight loss success following a plan, WW or otherwise?

    I’ve had a lot of success with WW in the past. It stays off for an extended period of time then life gets upset – baby, move, new job – I fall off and it slowly comes back.

    I’ve read about intuitive eating. I believe in it very much, but I also don’t think it would help me lose weight – I’m talking about 30-40 lbs, at least. Maybe it’s more of a maintenance mindset/approach after some weight is lost? I see WW’s flaws through the lens of learning about intuitive eating (ie: I once swore off avocado because it was ‘bad’… which isn’t WW’s messaging but also it sort of coached me there… I digress). Just curious of people’s experiences with long-term success. I’m not asking for effortless success by any means, but hoping to either be inspired or pointed in a direction to think more about.

    FWIW, I have PCOS and essentially if I’m not actively trying to lose, I’m gaining. So maybe that context helps or maybe there are some fellow PCOS’ers out there who can opine. Many thanks.

    • Pure Imagination

      I understand the temptation (my friends and I have had the “let’s diet until we can do IE” conversation), but you can’t approach intuitive eating to lose weight. Weight loss is neutral in IE; if it happens, that’s not a problem, but neither is gaining. The goal is to reach your body’s setpoint that you can maintain without dieting or compulsively overeating. This is very hard to accept and most people that I know, including myself, struggle with this part of IE, but the benefits make it worth it. It’s also important to view this as a lifelong process and not a quick fix of any kind because it’s really not.

        • OP

          Thanks for this link. I’ve done a LOT of reading about PCOS and resulting side effects (my infertility, for one), but this source was new to me.

          Also, point taken that weight loss =/= IE. So maybe IE isn’t exactly what I need. I’m in pursuit of physical health and I know (and have discussed with my doctor) that includes weight loss.

          • Pure Imagination

            Thanks for this link. I’ve done a LOT of reading about PCOS and resulting side effects (my infertility, for one), but this source was new to me.

            Also, point taken that weight loss =/= IE. So maybe IE isn’t exactly what I need. I’m in pursuit of physical health and I know (and have discussed with my doctor) that includes weight loss.

          • Anonymous

            Physical health and IE don’t have to be at odds. I’ve been practicing intuitive eating for over 5 years and my cholesterol is lower than it has ever been in my life.

          • Anon

            Looking back on my adult life, I’ve been an intuitive eater ever since I started getting a lot of unhealthy messages about my body and wanted to counteract those. My focus has been on how food makes me feel physically (energetic, satisfied, like good nutrients have been put into my body). I don’t put foods into “good” or “bad” camps and literally will not even purchase “reduced guilt” or “sinful” or whatever foods, because foods cannot be about “good” and “bad.” I like to exercise and focus on doing exercises that I enjoy and make my body strong.

            Now, this does not necessarily work for people who have PCOS or health issues, but I’m a firm believer in the idea that you need to get to a good mental place before you can get to a good physical place.

      • Monday

        +1. Intuitive Eating is fundamentally different from intentional weight loss (which is dieting in some form). You really can’t sample from each approach. It requires radically re-orienting your thinking around weight. I’m not going to make an argument for it here, just describing it.

        After embracing IE, I’ve been wearing the same clothes for about 5 years, which never happened at any other time in my adulthood (I’m 38).

    • The Original ...

      PCOS normally indicates that whatever works for non-PCOS people may not work for you. It’s just the nature of PCOS. With that in mind, I hope you are kind to yourself about the process! Also, reach out to your doc for guidance on how to lose and maintain while being in the unending PCOS battle, there may be specific tips or meds for this!

    • Anon

      I lost 30 lbs on WW in 2013 and just signed back up. I’m at my highest ever. What I’m liking about the new WW is the ability to choose the plan that works for you (they have 3 different ones), you can have phone chats with a coach a couple times a week (if you choose that plan), and they have Connect, which is like their FB. Intuitive eating doesn’t work for me because I can never intuitively eat…tortilla chips – I will eat ALL the tortilla chips (or any other processed carb) available, and that will always and forever be my downfall. But points work for me.

    • Anonymous

      Following with interest. I’ve been doing PNP for almost a year (keep gaining/losing same 3 lbs) — might it be a good middle ground? The goal is to lose weight by understanding when you’re hungry and when you’re full. You can eat anything you want as long as you put it on your plan at the beginning of the day. No calorie counting.

    • Anon

      I’ve lost about 20 pounds so far this year (with another 20-30 to go), and here’s what’s worked for me so far:

      First and foremost, be kind to yourself – you will slip up, you will have days where you eat everything it sight, and you will occasionally gain a bit of weight back. That is OKAY. It’s part of the process, and you’re not a failure.
      Track EVERYTHING – I track everything I eat in MyFitnessPal. I prefer it to WW because it’s just about calories – so if I want to fit in a small fries or something, I can.
      I weigh myself every day – it helps me catch slip ups, but I’ve also come to have a much better understanding of my natural weight fluctuations – how much weight I can expect to gain before my period, what’s bloating vs what’s actual weight gain. It also keeps me accountable.
      Find a calorie goal that works for you, and stick to it – for me, if I eat 1,200 calories a day, it’s unsustainable – I am SO hungry all the time, but I can manage 1,600 calories. Both put me in a deficit, but one is sustainable long term, even if it means slower weight loss.
      Make room for splurges – if I go out to a nice restaurant, I eat what I want, but if I’m cooking at home, it’s healthy. This helps keep me sane, which I think is particularly important if your goal is more than 5-10 pounds away.
      Add in activity – for me, this is running. I know weight loss is 80% diet, 20% exercise, but I find I have a much better attitude toward weight loss and food when I’m exercising – I can see a difference in my running times depending on how I’m eating, and that gives me another reason to eat well, even when I don’t want to.
      Most of all – know that it’s a process, and you WILL find what works for you, even if it takes some time.

      • Senior Attorney

        Yep, all this.

        And the sad part is there is no finish line. I had weight loss surgery 10 years ago and I still have to do all of the above, at least periodically, to keep from regaining.

      • The Only GenXer in the Office

        Yes to all of this. I lost over 100 lbs and have kept it off over six years and this is the approach I took. I ate a bit more (even if it meant slower weight loss) because it was sustainable and closer to what I would have to do for the rest of my life. It really is a lifelong journey and a lifestyle change and as Senior Attorney says, there is no end date.

    • Anon

      I have PCOS, and intuitive eating works for me with the caveat that I can’t get away with much in the way of carbs. Once I’m getting insulin spikes, I can’t lose weight (because my insulin is running high), and I will be hungry again (because too much insulin lowers my blood sugar to the point where I actually have to eat to stay functional). My experience is a bit strange, because I feel like I eat whatever I want and don’t count calories or even macros, but “what I want” is never bread, pasta, potatoes, etc. I think what brings it together is that once I was eating intuitively, I could feel what those foods were doing to me given my health issues, and that made them unattractive.

      • OP

        Are you doing anything extraordinary to track your insulin spikes? I had strong suspicions of PCOS and was only diagnosed in the context of infertility workups so I don’t have any baseline medical advice/guidance for just existing with PCOS. I take metformin, prescribed by my RE during fertility treatments. Maybe this really is a conversation around PCOS and not weight loss (but also weight loss).

        My PCP doesn’t really pay much attention to it at all but I really want it to become a major focus of my ongoing healthcare because the mental and physical impacts of (1) hair growth (2) fertility (3) weight gain/physical appearance (4) acne are really, really starting to take a toll. I’m doing whack-a-mole type bandaid-ing (seeing a derm, WW for weight loss, plucking hair) but I need more of a fix/structured course of action. Is there a special doctor that handles PCOS cases, or do I just need a better PCP? Her last guidance was just to see a nutritionist, and said nutritionist offered zero helpful information (eat more veggies!).

        • OP

          Also, fully aware there is no “cure” – just want more strategy around treatment/managing on a go forward basis.

          • Never too many shoes...

            The only thing that ever worked for me for weight loss with PCOS was metformin and a low carb diet.

          • Anonymous

            There are endocrinologists who have experience working with PCOS and have a good perspective on treatment but they are tough to find. Some OB/GYNs are educated too. Working with a doctor who doesn’t understand PCOS and doesn’t care to understand it is an exercise in futility; ask me how I know. I have two doctors, a PCP and an OB/GYN, who both get it and my life is a lot easier.

            Staying on Metformin is a good choice; I have been on it since 2002 and will not go off of it any time soon. I also have a Mirena IUD and that works very well for me. If you are struggling with symptoms like hirsutism, spironolactone can really help (I took it for about 8 years). I think with the symptoms you are reporting, Spirono is definitely worth a try but you may need to get a doctor or endocrinologist who gets it before you will be able to get a prescription. I had serious cystic hormonal acne and was losing my hair and Spirono put a stop to it. I came off of it when I got older and wanted to see if I could come off of it and be okay (if that makes sense) and my hormones had calmed down to the point where I did okay. FYI, research is showing that many women, once they hit menopause, see a drastic reduction in secondary symptoms and can even lose weight, opposite of what happens to many women in menopause.

            The basic advice is to use Metformin and follow a low-carb diet and be moderately physically active. That’s the best treatment anyone has right now. Getting another doctor is imperative. Many doctors still think PCOS is caused by being overweight, and it isn’t. It’s likely some kind of autoimmune disorder we still don’t fully understand. Some women with PCOS are overweight and some aren’t; despite that many doctors still believe weight loss is the PCOS cure-all. Despite the fact that there are studies that show that even when women with PCOS have weight-loss surgery and lose a lot of weight, they are still symptomatic afterward. Read online reviews and go to a few appointments until you find someone who is better able to understand and help you.

        • Anon

          When I was figuring out my diet, I did a lot of blood glucose testing. That helped me learn how blood sugar levels correspond to how I feel, so I don’t need to finger prick anymore. If your A1C is prediabetic and your insurance is good, you might be able to get a continuous blood glucose monitor for the same purpose these days (or you could just pay for one yourself) to avoid the finger pricks, but it’s the same idea. As far as I know, insulin is a blood test that has to be done at a lab, so I was just using “falling blood glucose” as a proxy for “rising insulin” when figuring out my diet.

    • Anonymous

      I have PCOS plus thyroid issues so my body is constantly trying to gain. The only way I can ensure weight loss is to switch to a low carb diet bc it helps with insulin resistance, which is what my dr advises too. I have followed several over the years and generally stick to yogurt/berries for breakfast, a salad or eggs/veggies for lunch, and some combo of lean protein, beans, and veggies for dinner. So not keto levels of low carb, but less than the standard American diet. I try to avoid artificial sweeteners. Regular exercise also helps keep my hormones regulated. I don’t lose from that alone, but the combo of diet plus exercise does work for me. It’s just rather difficult for my carb-loving self to stick to over the long haul.

    • Anonymous

      I have no idea how you got the idea from WW that avocado is bad. I use WW for maintenance and I love avocado. I like that it helps me focus on snacking on veg and fruit and eating healthier in general. I only did a minor weight loss at the beginning. BMI is 23 and I’m fine with that so just using it for maintenance. If I don’t track I end up eating all the carbs and not enough fruit/veg. I view it as similar to keeping track of how much sleep I get or insomnia issues start up.

      • Anonymous

        “I view it as similar to keeping track of how much sleep I get or insomnia issues start up.”

        Counterpoint, tracking my sleep makes me more anxious about how much sleep I’m getting and my insomnia gets worse. There are no one-size-fits-all solutions for wellness, unfortunately.

    • Anonymous

      I also have PCOS and am 43, in perimenopause. What has helped me the most is intermittent fasting + lower carb diet (not keto, not Atkins, just lower. Like Phase II South Beach lower). I fast from 7:30p-9a every day (I have tried longer fasts and it didn’t help my weight, but did make me cranky and exhausted, so I’m sticking with this) and my first “meal” of the day is something with a lot of protein and no carbs and no fake sugar, either. I try to eat mostly veggies and protein and minimal carbs but I don’t go crazy with counting or tracking macros. I had an eating disorder and have figured out that the close tracking is the first step towards going back into seriously disordered eating. So I guess maybe there’s an “intuitive” component as well. Pre-quarantine I had lost 10 lbs in the last year; I went up a little in the first month we were home (because f it, we’re in quarantine) but got myself back on track and am now holding steady. When we can get back to normal routines (and the gym) I think I will go back to losing.

      I am sure you know this but with PCOS any diet that includes even moderate carbs of any type is probably not going to get you where you want to be. I had no success with Weight Watchers for this reason. I could still eat a lot of carbs and stay within points, whereas eating low carb would blow out my points by noon. I haven’t done WW in a few years so maybe it’s different. It’s so old-school at this point but I recommend reading The South Beach Diet, focusing on Phase II (you can do the induction phase if you want but generally if I follow Phase II faithfully I will lose).

      The other thing that throws me off track is too much alcohol consumption, which is why I started gaining weight back in the first month of the quarantine. Going from one vodka tonic made with light tonic every other night to drinking 2 craft beers every night was not a great idea. For me, I cannot change my diet and see any result unless I also change my alcohol consumption, so it’s something to look at.

    • Anon

      I am sorry to say, statistically no weight loss diets work in the long run. The vast majority of people gain all the weight back, and then some. That is why many people are embracing things like intuitive eating and body positivity.

  17. Oopsies!

    For some laughs, anyone want to share embarrassing Zoom mistakes they’ve seen from the past few weeks? For my company we have two that I’ve seen – in one case someone was screen sharing and trying to pull up a web browser and the P*rn Hub website came up…he claimed that he did it on purpose. A second one – someone was sharing their screen and when they closed the window behind it was Microsoft Teams, where this person was chatting with someone else in the company wondering if another employee on the call had already had a few drinks that day (it was noon). OH NO!

    • anon

      I have seen none. My colleagues are annoyingly perfect and still showing up with hair and makeup done and wearing nice clothing (at least on top). I would give anything to see a less than perfect facade at this point.

    • CountC

      A coworker sent me a screenshot of a person who was loading Minecraft while on a call (it was not an employee of our company, thank goodness)!

    • Anon100

      I haven’t seen any embarrassing incidents unless you count pets showing off their rear ends right into the webcam (ah cats lol). Or a coworker’s dog somehow accidentally bu**-dialing our boss…

    • ArenKay

      I set up my Zoom class early, forgot it was on, and started serenading my dog when she came in the room. Of course students got to see and hear it.

    • Jeffiner

      My company does not to video conferences, audio only with occasional screen sharing as needed. Once when it was my turn to talk I accidentally hung up instead of turning off mute. Another time I got disconnected and forgot to go on mute when I dialed back in. My husband tried to get my attention, but saw I was on a call and was quiet. I said, for everyone to hear, “Its ok, no one is talking to me.” He wanted to show me something cute the cats were doing.

      • No Longer Anon

        I apparently have zero “how to unmute” skills so I’ve frequently been talking while I’m muted. Sometimes on video.

        Also, on a call where I was already nervous the other day, GoToMeetings lagged and I hit “unmute,” and then clicked it again because it hadn’t done anything the first time and re-muted myself.

        Not terrible, but I get flustered easily.

        Also, one of my colleagues frequently comes onto our weekly all staff calls in just a ratty, super low camisole, clearly without a bra. It’s really uncomfortable. If you’re dressing down (way, way down), please do not go on video. It’s optional.

    • Anon

      We have a lot of pet mishaps for sure – pets have become regular guests on our zoom calls, so have people’s kids – honestly, it’s kind of enjoyable – they’re all adorable, and it breaks up the day.

      • Gail the Goldfish

        I’m of the opinion people’s pets on zoom calls are a feature, not a bug.

    • Lilac

      Mine is decidedly less embarrassing than those two but I still felt like dying inside. My dog audibly farted on a video call, then I made a stink face and had to shoo him out of the room. I thought I was stealth but I was not, everyone watched as I suffocated in dog fart.

    • pugsnbourbon

      I was on a big call with about 45 participants and there was an unmistakable flush at one point. I get it, do what you gotta do, just … mute, please mute.

    • Anon

      Well my husband interrupted me three times on a zoom interview. So there’s that. They haven’t called me back!

      • No Longer Anon

        We had interviews last week and had to use Teams, which is apparently tricky for external applicants to figure out (PSA: the web browser version doesn’t play well with Safari). All of the applicants had issues getting logged on to the interview. We were understanding because we don’t understand it anymore than they did, but I felt bad because they were all super flustered and apologetic when they got on the line. We tried to reassure them that it wouldn’t count against them in the least.

    • BeenThatGuy

      I had someone (an EVP) this morning, eating pizza, and feeding their cat the same pizza slice. The day can’t get better than that!

    • pink

      i’m regularly on large group conf calls and i swear, once (pre pandemic), one of the participants was dialed in while having sex and we could all hear the heavy breathing. the speaker kept going though!

  18. Shoes at work

    For those of you who keep your shoes at work, can you even remember them now? My heeled pumps and work shoes tend to live at work. I had to think hard about what might be waiting for me when I come back (at least THEY will still fit; not sure if my clothes will . . .).

    • cbackson

      I think my nicest black Ferragamo pumps are living under my desk. At this point the earliest I’ll see them is October (since I won’t return to the office until after mat leave).

      • Veronica Mars

        For some reason, this is striking me as being spooky–thinking about all the things “left behind” in the office, and the offices just sitting there empty.

    • Anonymous

      I was working remotely for a company in another state and have a whole drawer full of back up items (cardigan, shoes, deodorant, a bra) for when I travelled to the office. During quarantine, I decided to take a job locally and resigned from old job. so I not only have shoes, but a freaking bra hanging out back in old office. one of my coworkers has generously agreed to mail them back to me once she returns to the office.

    • Ribena

      I left two baking tins in my locker, from a bake sale the first week of March! D’oh.

    • Thanks, It Has Pockets!

      I only left behind a couple shoes, black pumps in one office and red pumps in the other. I was sort of a nomad going between offices, didn’t have a desk that was officially “mine” so I couldn’t really set up shop anywhere. Just as well, I guess. I’ve been laid off, so I’m not sure I’ll get them back, but that’s okay, neither pair was in great shape. I plan on treating myself to some new work shoes once I get a new job and go back to work in an office. I made sure the good shoes were home safe.

      • Thanks, It Has Pockets!

        ETA: I also absent-mindedly left some really good cream cheese in an office fridge, intending to take it home with me the day I bought it and forgot. Now no one will get to eat it. It was honey sriracha cream cheese from Bruegger’s :(

    • Never too many shoes...

      I miss my shoes so much – I have like 40 pairs at my office.

    • mclawyer

      All of my heels and suit jackets are in my office! Good thing I won’t be needing them any time soon..

  19. Anonymous

    Kitchen cabinets. Do yours have liners? Are they paper or the waffle vinyl stuff?

    • MagicUnicorn

      Not generally, but I put adhesive contact paper on the few shelves that were stained or otherwise strange when we moved in.

    • anonn

      waffle vinyl stuff. but it bunches up and is a PITA that my husband apparently does not notice and will just let bunch up further.

      • MagicUnicorn

        This is the main reason I don’t have the waffle kind anywhere. The office has it and it seems that all of the people who put dishes away are either blind to the wrinkles or are agents of chaos who revel in the angst said wrinkles cause the rest of us.

    • Anon Probate Atty

      Only in the drawers and pantry, and they are vinyl kind from Costco. Glad I have them generally as they make it easier to clean and prevent things from sliding around in the drawers.

      • Anon

        Apparently I’m a cave-dweller with my naked cabinet shelves, so I gotta ask… doesn’t that just make two surfaces to have to keep clean?

    • LawDawg

      I have vinyl waffle stuff (solid, not with holes) that is only in the cabinet where I keep oils. That way I can protect the wood shelf and theoretically take it out and wash it. Maybe a project for this weekend…

      • Ms B

        Cosign on the Lifeliner; it keeps glasses from getting those “stale” smells when they are flipped bottom up. Very happy with it, except in the skinny cabinets where nothing probably would stay in place. Considering using small adhesive circles to keep it in place in those few cabinets.

    • Gail the Goldfish

      Yes, because previous occupants of the house had put down horribly ugly contact paper (that wasn’t particularly well applied) probably sometime circa mid-90s. After I pulled that up and tried every sticky residue remover known to man, it was still a bit sticky (contact paper is the devil). I’ve got ridged vinyl stuff from Lowe’s and it works great.

    • Senior Attorney

      OMG this is one of the few points of contention between my lovely husband and me. I moved into his house when we got married and he has the waffley liner in all the cabinets, which has deprived me of one of my major short-person adaptations: putting an item on the very edge of the top shelf and the sliding it into place!

    • Anon

      I have the vinyl type. I mainly use it because I live in an apartment and don’t want anything to damage the cabinets. I got a ridiculous charge when I moved out of a dorm one year on a really minor water spot that happened in the bathroom cabinet. Ever since then, I’ve been a bit anal about keeping the cabinets looking pristine

    • Anon

      I have the kind from Ikea, it’s a textured plastic and I use dot velcro to stick them so they never move. It’s the best.

  20. Anonymous

    One of my biggest weight loss challenges is drinking, so I joined a drinking accountability group. Has anyone been in one successfully? Goal is NOT to stop drinking but to plan/account for it accurately. Trying to find the balance between support and enabling.

    • Anon

      I gave it up altogether and found r/stopdrinking helpful.
      I did find that my digestion improved to the point that I didn’t lose weight, so while I’m probably healthier (I wasn’t objectively unhealthy to begin with), I’m not slimmer.

    • anon

      I don’t do a drinking accountability group but found that setting a hard rule of “I don’t drink on school nights” significantly cut down on my drinking pretty organically. Knowing that I could have a cocktail on Friday/Saturday made passing on the glass of wine during the week a lot easier and honestly over time really curbed my desire to drink much on the weekends anyways. It also has been successful in my group who are are pretty heavy social drinkers in avoiding the “oh come on, it’s just one drink” type comments and it’s not that weird. People are weirdly more accepting of “I don’t drink on school nights” versus “I’m not drinking tonight”

      • Senior Attorney

        Yes, I’ve done this and it works well. I also gave up hard liquor a while ago and only ever drink wine. (And margaritas on Taco Tuesday, of course. Because tequila is medicinal, right?)

        • PolyD

          I did this too, although I allowed myself to drink during the week if I was out with friends (which was not an every night or even every week thing). It worked well for me, too.

          Of course, that was last year. Things are different now. I’m drinking more, but not really worried about excess. I still find it easy to say, nope, no alcohol tonight, and I very rarely have more than one drink in a night.

    • anon

      it depends on your specific habits and rituals. For me, I just love food and drink in general, and like to reward myself with something that I ingest. And then there is drinking something indulgent while hanging out with friends, and even though zoom happy hours are a poor substitute, that desire still remains. For me, other indulgent things work to scratch that itch very well, so I might have a mocktail, or a fancy seltzer, or a ginger beer (which is non alcoholic). Actually, non-alcoholic beers are also worth exploring, wheat-style beers are fairly reliably good alcohol free. Some days I will only have that substitute, but having a fancy soda/seltzer chilled in the fridge also makes it easy to switch after one beer/wine.

  21. Anonymous

    Until when though? 2021? 2022? I mean, in 6 more months, what is likely to be different? Will we be putting haircuts off that long, too? B/c I would feel weird postponing something medical, like dental visits, while doing things for mere vanity.

    • Anonymous

      I’ll be putting off haircuts too. Doing it myself (and poorly I’m sure) indefinitely.

      • Anon

        Putting off haircuts for several years is very different than putting off dental cleanings for several years.

    • pugsnbourbon

      My stylist has never put her fingers in my mouth during a haircut (yet).

      I mean I’m not getting my hair cut now anyway, I’m just thinking through the process.

      • Anon

        I mean, dentists wear gloves and change the gloves between every patient. Them sticking their fingers in your mouth is not a source of risk.

        • pugsnbourbon

          True. And I realize that dentists/dental hygienists wear masks and protective eyewear. However the patient can’t exactly wear a mask, and in the other thread someone mentioned that cleaning creates aerosols/particulates that could spread germs.
          My dentist canceled my appointment so it was a moot point for me. Given the option, I’d probably reschedule for 6 weeks out, and then re-evaluate at that time. For the majority of healthy adults, delaying a cleaning by 6 weeks isn’t going to cause issues.

          • Anon

            I guess I’m just a pessimist but I feel like 6 weeks from now things won’t any be safer and even 6 months from now they may not be. My state is opening soon, so right now actually feels like the safest time to me. I have a cleaning scheduled for July and although I don’t anticipate canceling it, I sort of wish I were going today and getting it over with before our stay at home order (maybe) expires tomorrow.

          • AIMS

            I would think that all this is a much bigger risk to the dentist or hygienist.

    • Pure Imagination

      There was an interesting article about Sweden’s approach in the NYT as well. I’ll be curious to see how they handle a second wave, especially with such low testing.

      As an aside, that article has the worst clickbait headline ever. NYT has been really bad on that score lately too. I swear the clickbait makes it so much more stressful to follow the news.

      • Anon

        I don’t think there’s going to be a “second wave” in Sweden in the sense that most people use that term. They never locked down and virus transmission will likely continue steadily, without defined “waves” until they get herd immunity.

    • Anonymous

      The Guardian reported that 50% of Swedish households are single person households so I think that makes their situation much different from many other places.

      • Anon

        Sweden also has universal healthcare, which I think changes the ethical value of their decision as compared to here, where a poor person who gets sick may find the cost of healthcare prohibitive even if there are plenty of beds and ventilatiors.

        • Anon

          Yeah let’s be all about the ethics of poor people, everyone else – whatever. Sweden’s model for this (or maybe at all times) says if you’re over 80, you’re not getting an ICU bed no matter what. If you’re 65-80 with 2 or more pre existing conditions no ICU bed; too bad if your conditions are that you take a daily thyroid and acid reflux pill. But socialized medicine is sooooo much better because PEOPLE OF COLOR and poverty . . . .

          • small town girl

            please source this if it’s true. i’ve been looking for a bit and I can’t find it.

          • Anon

            That’s not a correct description of the Swedish plans. I can read Swedish, so I had a look.

            The Swedish National Guidelines about the ethical Principles for intensive care during extraordinary circumstances says very clearly that you cannot prioritize between patients based on the chronological age of the patients. (socialstyrelsen.se) The value of human life is the most important principle.

            In a situation where it is necessary to make choices on who to give intensive care and who to give alternative care – it is however allowed to make priorities based on biological age or the possible benefit to the patient based on the the patient’s general health condition and chance of survival.

            The principles also clearly state that it is not allowed to make priorities based on social situation or position, any disabilities or whether the condition is a result of the patient’s own life choices.

            The plan is very clear on that even in normal cases, intensive care is only given to very ill patients who are at risk of getting worse, and already with a low chance of survival.

            There have been articles about guidelines for how to decide biological age and survival possibilities (again, if priorities are necessary). Number of vital organs failing is one of the indicators. High chronological age with low chance of surviving intensive care is another one.

            But yeah, these seems to be ethical guidelines and contingency plans. There has been debate about the principles, and how they can be made operational if needs be.

          • anon

            thanks for clarifying, anon. Sounds very similar to the contingency plans that US doctors have discussed. All countries have had to face this grim possibility.

    • Anonymous

      yea theres an article like this about japan as well… i guess in my personal travels to those two peoples, people seem way less selfish and way more considerate about societal good compared to here. obviously it is just my opinion and experience. when we were in japan pre-covid already mask wearing was the normal for anyone who felt under the weather in an effort to protect others around them. i dont see that being the case here …

      • Anon

        Mask wearing is incredibly common in most of Asia, even if you’re not feeling under the weather. It’s just a hygiene thing that most people do, like washing your hands after going to the bathroom.

        • Anon

          Mask wearing in Japan is for preventative purpose in the case of sickness. Mask wearing in China and Vietnam was for air pollution. We definitely didn’t all wear masks for the same purpose prior to covid19, even if they’re commonplace.

          • anon

            heard an interesting podcast on the different approach to masks last week. Basically, the US had kind of normalized mask-wearing during the 1918 influenza outbreak, and then that just got lost in history, while Japan and China had more recent infectious-disease scares, so that habit is more current. But there isn’t a fundamental difference when it comes to mask wearing.

  23. Anonymous

    If one more person who lives with other people or media outlet tells me to have a zoom happy hour or telephone call with a friend to alleviate the loneliness I am going to SCREAM.

    It’s not enough. Stop pretending it is. We have an minimum another 4 weeks here, probably more. And it is miserable.

    • Anon

      Go for a walk or even better, a drive, if you have a car. Go to a drive-thru, go see different stuff, see other humans, breathe fresh air. You’ll feel so much better.

      • Anon

        This. I live alone and so far not antsy. Hadn’t left my apartment in 3 weeks not even for walks as I don’t want to be in elevators. Yet this week when I went out shopping, I also drove around down to see how things looked/what was open or not/how busy were stores I wasn’t going to like Target/what restaurants had cars or not (McDonalds drive thru was the busiest, mom and pops empty). It was good to get out. Will do it again in a few weeks maybe further or in a different direction.

      • Sad

        Just a side note – I’m in the same stage as the OP and the walks outside don’t help. They just remind me of how not normal and weird everything is. So that may not be a cure all either

        The walks from 6 feet away sound good, but I don’t have a great solution either

    • Carrots

      I’m right there with you (living by myself). Definitely a bigger swing between good days, okay days, and not great days. Nothing to add that you haven’t already heard, but commiseration and the agreement that this sucks.

    • anon a mouse

      I have done socially distanced happy hours with friends where we put our lawn chairs in a circle, 7-8 feet apart, and hang out for an hour or two. I thought it would be silly but it really helped to talk in person. There’s something about the stiltedness of video chats that makes it harder to have a good conversation flow.

      • Jeffiner

        Yup, we’ve done this too. Even the couples found it refreshing and invigorating to talk to other people.

    • Anonymous

      tbh I’m just going to see people who have also been quarantining from 6 feet away. I’m done with this garbage.

      • American Girl

        I’m super pro-lockdown (I’m the one that someone called a “troll”) but even I think it’s ok to have socially distant meeting with friends who have also been quarantining. It seems super unfair that single people have to bear the brunt of this suffering, and two or three friends who have all been quarantining hanging out at a safe distance doesn’t seem any riskier to me than people who decided to quarantine with their huge extended family.

        • anon

          Thank you for posting a measured response. I am not super pro-lockdown but I do find it frustrating when people suggest that two people who have otherwise been quarantining getting together for a socially distanced meeting is somehow on par with hosting a rave for 50 people

    • Ribena

      I’m with you. Fresh air everyday is helping, as is a weekly takeaway flat white where I can have a quick chat with the coffee shop owner. I find Sunday’s and Monday’s the hardest, since they drive home the passage of time. (I seem to cry every Sunday night and Monday morning lately and then be okayish the rest of the week)

      • Anon

        OMG is this a thing? I’m largely fine and yet for whatever reason Sunday nights are teary and then Monday I get like nothing done at work or I don’t start being productive until 2-3 pm.

          • Ribena

            I always thought the Sunday scaries were about going back into work on Monday? That’s never bothered me – it’s the time rolling on in lockdown.

    • Anonymous

      can you go visit a friend and socially distance? we go see our SIL and talk to them (us masked) while sitting in lawn chairs on their driveway and theyre in their window. it’s been a nice break and we’re definitely well social distanced 15 ft while still hanging out.

    • Anon

      Did you see the NYT article on why Zoom is awful? It made me feel better in a self-righteous kind of way :)

    • PolyD

      I am fortunate to live with someone. All the props to the single, living-alone people who are getting through this. You have it so hard and you’re right to feel awful. I can’t help any, but know that I think no less of my living alone friends who are admitting to being over it and think they are all heroes for coping as well as they are.

      This weekend my partner and I might “visit” a single friend of ours. We’ve all been responsible and haven’t been to the office or out except for groceries since mid March. If it’s nice out, we might get food and find some place we can sit far enough apart and visit that way, or take a walk with masks.

    • anon

      I’m right there with you. It’s not remotely the same or enough. Highly recommend getting outside and if possible going for a walk with someone outside. Human contact from 6 feet away is really so much nicer than staring at a screen.

  24. Anon

    I posted yesterday looking for mask recommendations. Wanted to update that I received order I had placed from Etsy studio “8Creativestudio” The size medium fit me well (small female) and they were high-quality/breathable.

    • Anon

      Thank you for posting. I just ordered a mask . While my Los Angeles Apparel mask is high quality its just too hot for Florida. Thanks!

  25. A.

    As with Strategy Mom above, I’m looking for the same shorts recommendation, but for an apple shape. Obviously can’t go to stores to try on right now but would love to order a few pairs. I plan to live in these all summer, as well as all of the lightweight sleeveless jumpsuits I ordered from Athleta and Target.

    I’d also be interested to hear peoples’ recommendations for not-seethrough, lightweight cotton tanks and tees — not grabby around the middle (b/c apple shape) and hip length would be great.

    • Anon

      They’re not made of cotton, but I love Uniqlo’s Airism tanks and tees. They’re opaque, not clingy, lightweight and breathable. They dry really fast, which makes them great for kind-of-swimsuit situations like boating, hiking to hot springs, amusement parks, and the beach. I usually buy their bra tanks so that I also don’t have to deal with a second layer or slipping bra straps.

  26. Anon

    My state (DC) just came out and said even a partial re-opening is likely 2-3 months away. I just…that’s insane. I can already see people starting to break social distancing (small gatherings, etc) – I don’t want to get into an argument about whether that’s okay or not, but I do think we need to deal with the reality we have, and saying re-opening is 2-3 months away, and not even trying to re-open some things sooner, is just going to result in more of that. I’m just…angry. It’s not super rational, it’s not well thought out, and I think it’s an overreach. The economy cannot sustain another 3 months of full shut down. There will be no small businesses left.

    • Anonymous

      I think the DC spike is predicted to occur later than some of the states. What I have seen over the course of the CA lockdown is small businesses figuring out how to partially open. The brewery bought a canning machine and is selling canned beer to go, a gourmet/gift shop re stocked with enough additional food to be considered a grocer, a fishmonger for restaurants opened a delivery service for consumers, etc. Our local website and local news are good resources for figuring out how to support the local businesses. Also, if you can do a CSA box, that will support local farmers.

    • Anon

      Eh weren’t we always saying June? I’m fine with it, what’s the rush? As for small business, so you’ll get your coffee at Pret instead of Joes coffee shop? Is that a huge deal? I mean I’m not interested in taking health risks to support anyone else’s business.

      • Anon

        Yes, because local business is one of the most important drivers of what makes my city unique. I am not interested in living in some chain-store cookie cutter suburb that looks and acts the same no matter which city you’re in.

        • American Girl

          I agree, but if people don’t feel safe going out, or if the virus spikes again, then local businesses will suffer even more.

      • Ribena

        Here in Scotland, it’s the chains that are shut and the mom-and-pop businesses that are open and pivoting into new business areas (as anon at 12:19 mentioned).

      • anon

        Thank you for the inspiration for the premise of my new novel inspired by The Handmaid’s Tale, we use a public health crisis to justify basically a totalitarian regime, but start slowly by killing off the things that give people a sense of local community

        • anon

          *eyeroll* yes, this pandemic has allowed Mayors Bowser, Northam, and Hogan to execute their secret years-long plot to take over the DMV

          • anon

            This wasn’t a dig at any particular mayors but a very real concern I have. Historically times of disruption have very much been the catalyst for ushering in dictatorships. It’s all good and fine if you like the people in charge but governments generally don’t hand back power after the seize it. I’m worried about this public health crisis but I am also worried about the number of people who are seemingly totally fine giving up constitutional rights at this time particularly given who our head of state is. He’s too dumb to have figured this out yet but I’m very concerned at some point he’ll realize he can likely use this as an opportunity to seize further power. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the fall he suggests that due to the public health emergency we should stall the election (and yes I know that the sensible route is to do mail in ballots but he’s of course not going to allow that since numbers suggest he’d lose if he did that).

        • Anonymous

          novel or documentary? fwiw, this is something not enough people are paying attention to.

    • Anon

      Does anyone know what data DC/Va/Md are following? I only look at IHME which says all 3 peaked on April 20-21. Yet when I watch the Va governor press conferences, he talks about a peak in June. Is it just that we aren’t meeting the “gating” requirement — we don’t have 14 days of declining cases because they bounce back up and that then restarts the clock? I realize the gating requirement isn’t a requirement and a lot of states that are reopening like Fla. and Ga. haven’t even begun the decline, but I feel like in this area we won’t do that as all of these governors are getting advice from Hopkins etc (or Hogan is at least and then all 3 are acting in concert with that advice); I’m frankly thankful that we AREN’T rushing but I do wonder why there is such a big gap in info esp when IHME has been pretty accurate in the rest of the country.

      • Anon

        Look, I’m all for listening to medical experts, but that has to be balanced with economics and human behavior – I think that’s the problem – I’m sure the doctors at Hopkins are smart, but they’re definitely not experts in either of those two.

        • Anon

          Yeah I mean they aren’t thinking economics. Fauci says — I’m not an economist, this is what you need to do from a HEALTH perspective. Personally as economically driven as I am, I’m fine with that — let the health experts decide what needs to be done from a health perspective. If that takes 2 more months or 6 more months, fine. People will survive. I’m not that worried about low wage laid off workers; in most states they are making MORE sitting home than going to work so spare me.

          All the people who are screaming economy don’t really get the economy. If we reopen too fast and shut it down again, the economic damage that time around will be worse; the forbearances on rents etc. aren’t going to be extended a second time and once you open you WILL be expected to pay rent. You open your favorite coffee shop in June, somehow make the rent in June and then it spikes again in July and you close — guess what your landlord isn’t going to be so patient about it next time around because their lender won’t be so patient about it. And frankly if a few coffee shops and burrito joints go under, so what? Something else will pop up in their place. Starbucks, Pret, ABP, Dominos etc. those aren’t going anyplace.

          • anon

            How do you think that extra money for laid off workers is being paid? States are bleeding tax revenue right now (a lot of which isn’t just from income tax, which isn’t being generated if people aren’t working but also things like sales tax which can’t be collected if stores aren’t open to sell things). Unemployment insurance is a funded program with money that is funded from…people working. The premise of unemployment insurance is that everyone pays into the system so that when someone becomes unemployed they have something to keep them afloat until they find a new job. It’s not designed to support large portions of the population for long periods of time and it doesn’t have the money to do that. The extra unemployment insurance money people are receiving under CARES Act only goes through June (maybe sooner?) so if this goes on 6 months, then people on unemployment will ALL be collecting less than they were before (note that many still are) and that’s before you get into things like healthcare costs. Some employers are still allowing furloughed employees to stay on their benefit plans in hopes they will come back, if those turn into permanent layoffs, COBRA is crazy expensive and eats into a lot of that unemployment check.

            If you think this is just about coffee shops, you’re missing the point. There’s also things like manufacturing that will eventually run out of on hand products to sell, which then effects the entire downstream supply chain and all the businesses involved, just as one example.

        • anon

          I agree completely on the human behavior point. You have to treat the patient you have (i.e., the population) not the patient you wish you had (i.e., the mythical perfectly compliant population who will follow all the rules).

      • anon

        Unfortunately, the IMHE model has not been correct for DC — deaths have been significantly higher than it predicted. Bowser did warn that the IMHE model was overly optimistic, and it looks like she was right.

    • anon

      Nineteen people died yesterday in DC, our deadliest day so far. We haven’t reached the peak of this yet.

    • Anon

      According to the NYT, for DC: “Stay at home in effect since April 1 and set to expire May 15.” Where are you seeing partial re-opening is likely 2-3 months away? I don’t believe this to be accurate.

    • Anon

      That’s crazy! My state is one of the more cautious ones I thought and is talking about gradual reopening beginning in mid-May with most businesses being able to open sometime in June. Late July is the longest timeline I’ve ever heard.

    • Anon

      I agree that the whole country can’t sustain 3 more months of total lockdown, but longer local shutdowns are inevitable until we have a vaccine and unfortunately DC has been hit very badly – I think you have the highest per capita rate of any US jurisdiction? So it makes sense that you can’t open yet.

  27. Scott's Tot

    So, I have worked from home full time for about a year and I love it. My boss always gave me a ton of freedom and flexibility with my hours. Ever since the mandatory company-wide WFH policy started, it’s grown to be a lot more stressful. Pre-COVID, my boss would video call me maybe once a week for an hour. Now we video chat almost every single day, and there are more company meetings. People expect you to be always available. Has anyone else who was a remote employee prior to COVID had this experience? We have a few more months of this, so I’m hoping there starts to be a rhythm pretty soon.

    • Anon

      Blessedly, my bosses have gotten sick of Zoom too and dropped the weekly Zoom team meetings to every other (IRL, they were monthly meetings). Could you just make a similar suggestion to your boss, to drop back down to the weekly?

      • Scott's Tot

        That’s a good idea – my boss doesn’t really schedule the meetings, just pops up with a video call haha. Thankfully when they called prior to 9 am they said to keep the video off lol.

    • Anonymous

      I am struggling with this too. Most days I suddenly have 5-6 hours of video calls, all scheduled, some external. Complicating matters, I’m part of a global team that is 5 hours behind HQ, so most calls have to be done in the morning. I get to 2pm and I’m too fried to do any focused work. I’ve been working late at night after kids are in bed in order to have a stretch of uninterrupted time…

  28. Anon

    I overwatered my orchids…Gave them 1/2 tsp of water yesterday when I gave them 1 tbsp about a week ago, and now the leaves are yellowing. Some worse than others. What to do? I’ve pulled the plastic cups out of the clay pots and have them resting on their sides on top of the cups, but I don’t know how to save them…

    • Anon

      Take them out of their pots and look at the roots. It’s probably time to repot.
      I keep mine in clay pots, filled with wine corks and orchid mix (depends on the species and what medium I have handy at the time) and water thoroughly once per week (or when it rains – they’re outdoors much of the year).
      If you use a medium like sphagnum moss you’ll need to water less and less often. Often orchids that you buy in the store are potted in sphagnum. This isn’t because that’s the best medium over time; it’s because it holds water during shipping. You’re better off repotting to something well-draining and soaking the plant from time to time.
      Miss Orchid Girl’s videos on youtube are pretty good for beginners.

        • Anon

          My pleasure! Orchids are fascinating. Once you figure out the right species and location, they’re really easy and can handle a lot of neglect! I can’t grow phalaenopsis (the ones you commonly see at the grocery store) for anything. It’s too hot and sunny everywhere I have for plants at my house. Once I discovered cattleyas and oncidiums, though… ooooh boy, I was hooked. My goal is to have at least one plant blooming year-round. I’m almost there. It doesn’t have to cost a ton. I buy bloomed out plants (what they eventually look like is part of the fun for me) and ask my friends to save wine corks for me for repotting. If I kill one, it’s a learning experience and I’m not out much money. I don’t trust my self yet to spend big money on a plant yet.

          You might check out your local orchid society. Mine is a bit… extra. Think of the cast of “Best in Show” but with plants. Sometimes they’re a really good source of beginner info and new plants. Other times, it devolves into grown men arguing over taxonomy. I just like growing pretty flowers.

          One more fun link is http://www.theorchidcolumn.com/ from the Atlanta Botanical Garden.

      • Anon

        Omg…wow. I just learned so much from your post. I have had a crew of three orchids for about 5 years. They bloom every year and seem well-adjusted, but I’ve never repotted them. I will try! Thanks for your help.

  29. Anon

    Texas A&M just said they are opening in the fall, including with football and in-person instruction….with no information on exactly how that will work. What is the purpose of such an aspirational announcement with no plans. do they think they are special and can have huge sporting events, even though these won’t be happening in other places in the country?

    • Anon

      I don’t know, what is the point of complaining about it here? Truly, your post just seems like you just want to whine and complain about somebody and frankly, I don’t think any of us need that. As we’ve seen with literally everything else, plans change daily and Texas A&M’s likely will too. No need to get our undies in a bunch now about something months from now that probably won’t even happen.

    • Anon

      They’re Aggies and they’re Texans. Y’all are blowing this out of proportion. They don’t need science . . . they’ll do what they want y’all.

      This experience for me, much moreso than the 2016 election, is clarifying where I cannot live. I mean I’m a brown Muslim and yet even after the election I used to say — nah if I wanted to live in x, I’d go, you can find well educated relatively “open minded” communities in every state, as my friends were like nope never leaving the 95 corridor or Cali. Now I’m like forget open minded, I need places where the state governments and the public believe in SCIENCE. Seems like my geographic range has narrowed because of that requirement.

      • Anonymous

        Well, don’t go to NYC where the mayor complains about “the Jews.” You never know which group will be in the crosshairs next.

        • Anon

          Did you read what she wrote? It’s NOT about being Muslim or being in the cross hairs which less face it minority religions — Jews, Muslims, whatever already are. It’s about being in places where whether you are in the cross hairs or not, people believe in science. I’m pretty sure NYC still does.

      • small town girl

        I’m sure I’m going to be attacked here and that will be what it is but the numbers in College Station and in Houston the closest real city are all great. Y’all can say what you want but according to the NYT
        CS – flat or decreasing, numbers doubling every 52.2 days, 0.18 cases per 1,000 people
        Hou (4th most populous city in the US) – flat or decreasing, numbers doubling every 29.3 days, 0.45 cases per 1,000 people, in total less than 9000 cases and less than 200 deaths in a metro area of 7 million people

        Also I do think we will have some form of college football this fall but I have no clue if we will actually have on campus instruction.

        • Anon

          I mean that part is fine but is the entire student body from College Station or Houston? You have students coming from Dallas etc. You also have 5-10% of students coming from out of state. Plus it’s not about the town itself, it’s the fact that you will now have 1000s of people living in shared housing, using communal bathrooms; how clean can that really be kept? Lecture halls with 200+ kids in them. Maybe they’ll socially distance those and open up more sections so lecture halls don’t have people sitting elbow to elbow, but honestly how small can you make an economics 101 or a bio 101? 100 kids? 50 kids? There’s no way certain classes can be taught in groups of 10 or 20 sitting in a circle on college green.

          • small town girl

            As I said at the end of my reply, I’m not sure on-campus instruction will happen. I was really responding to Anons comments about how our Texas government doesn’t believe in science and is just dismissing covid-19 completely. Our numbers state-wide are great and for people from other states to dismiss that out of hand without acknowledging that we have done a damn good job is frustrating.

        • Anon

          My favorite part of this thread is people arguing about Texas using y’all. Seriously! Haha I love it.

          Signed, a Californian, where just like every state, we can complain about our own state but we will fight anyone from out of state who tries it

      • Anon

        Oh screw off. Texas A&M is a land, sea, and space grant institution that is highly regarded for its research. They are far more scientific than your precious self.

    • January

      Cynically, the purpose of the announcement is to encourage admitted students to accept the offer of admission and plan to attend in the fall without deferring. Less cynically, it may be to give people hope of a more normal life resuming in the not-too-distant future (however much of a fantasy that may prove to be).

      • Anon

        This.
        Also, assuming we have plenty of tests, televised football in empty stadiums seems pretty low risk. They can test all the players and coaching staff each week.

      • Anon

        This. My big southern state U employer hasn’t made an announcement for fall yet, but I really hope all of their summer decisions are being made with the goal of a fall opening. We’re generally well funded for a state school and nobody’s said anything about furloughs, but for staff the work is starting to dry up already. By fall, it’ll either be get back to business or cut staff. I’ve got enough leave to cover a semester off, but not many people do.

      • anon

        Yup, I’m with your cynical view. This is a smart business decision aimed to reduce the number of deferrals.

    • Anon

      It’s my expectation that universities are making these announcements so there won’t be a mass canceling of deposits from students. Few people will want to start a new program remotely, and universities are already hurting financially from state cuts and refunds from this past semester. I work for a university and the outward message is “we’ll be on campus for fall,” but we’re prepping for online and for more cuts (I probably won’t be back, unfortunately).

    • Anon

      I mean, they did the NFL draft, so it’s not like optimism towards football being played somehow is new?

    • Anon

      I read an article somewhere yesterday (maybe CNBC?) that a good # of kids esp kids who are full pay and thus have the options provided by parents are considering taking a gap year. They and their parents want them to have the full college experience but only when it’s safe — if that’s a year from now or 2 years from now, fine. And as a society given how much “red shirting” parents do now, people care much less about graduating college at 24 than 22. These are also the parents with $$$. So they are not weighing — well my kid would have to get a job, do I want him exposed to customers all day long at Target or is it safer to be at the A&M dorms where they’ll put thermal cameras in entry ways, student health is right there etc. They can keep their kids 100% safe. If some part of the world gets the infection rate/R down below 0.1 persons infected, guess what these parents can totally arrange a gap year there for their kids; I think New Zealand may be high on the list if its situation holds. If no country can do that, well no worries — mom and dad have friends who can cook up a virtual internship at XYZ firm and in return mom and dad will give that friend’s kid an internship at their firm just so it doesn’t look like — oh you worked for your parents for 18 months; nope actually worked for my parents country club friends as we set up an internship exchange. And money being no object, doesn’t matter if these are a few unpaid projects to put on a resume.

      So yeah I can see universities that aren’t top 10 or 20 (which have a steady flow of people to pull of waitlists and plenty of parents/kids who’d risk what would likely be a “minor” health issue for the chance at a Harvard degree 4 years from now) rushing it to secure the full pay kids.

      • Anon

        New Zealand is not letting foreigners in and I don’t expect that to change any time soon. Other counties that eliminate/minimize the virus will do the same. And when travel reopens, Americans will likely be banned because we’re now the #1 world hotspot. It’s not like taking a gap year to go have fun adventures abroad will be easy for American teenagers.

      • Anon

        You went somewhere rather weird with this. I know plenty of people who are full-pay at good universities and very few of them are the types to be able to get their kids internships with their friends. What’s far more likely is that the kids will take a gap year AND NO ONE CARES what they do that year, nor if they are 22 or 23 when they graduate.

  30. Lina

    For people who went to “pre professional” grad school – MPP, MBA, MPH, MSW, etc – what would you have considered a “good” increase in salary before vs after grad school (if that was one of your goals in going to grad school)?

    • Anon

      Huh? How are those “pre” professional degrees? I’d call all of those professional degrees.

      • Anon

        Yeah pre-professional means something like pre-med in undergrad. The degrees you listed are professional degrees.

    • Lina

      Okay y’all, I brain farted and write ore professional instead of professional. I meant professional. Whoopsy

    • Anon

      Well, I was making minimum wage at a coffee shop in 2012 (2010 college grad) before I started my MPP program and I got a job with state government making $60k afterwards, which I considered to be a very good increase. But more seriously to answer your question, I’m guessing the salary bump from getting one of those degrees would also depend on how much experience you had before. My theory is that the more experience you already have, the smaller the increase will be. I more than doubled my salary going from coffee shop to bureaucrat, but if you’ve already been working for a while, that’s unlikely. And of course there are more variables, like you’re switching industries or whatnot.

      • givemyregards

        Agreed, also there are so many other variables as to make answering this question almost impossible. What’s the program, where are you in your career, is the degree to change careers or to get a leg up in your current one? I definitely thought about salary implications pre/post grad school, but I don’t think my calculus would necessarily be helpful to anyone unless they were in the exact same trajectory. Not trying to be a downer and say this is a dumb question! Just hard to answer.

    • Pompom

      Do your research on this, HARD. Ask impolite-sounding questions about $ to admissions. It’s entirely, entirely dependent on the industry, function, and geographic market you’re aiming for, and no one will be able to tell you or promise you a specific ROI in dollars. I work in higher ed admin in one of the degrees you ask about, and we get a lot of assumptions…people have never asked or done any independent research, and they end up angry and disappointed to learn that I can’t promise them a specific ROI. IME, Anon at 1:18 is right about this, for sure: “the more experience you already have, the smaller the increase will be.” My people going from early career nonprofit roles to early-career/not-quite-entry level professional corporate careers see a way bigger delta than anyone else.

    • Pure Imagination

      I have an MPH, but I decided to get it at a public school where I could get in-state tuition. I ended up paying about $25K in total for a two-year program at a top school (tuition + TA positions every semester to get partial remission) and felt very comfortable with that amount. I did get a salary bump of about $20K (not including bonus), but some companies in my field are notorious lowballers on salary and it’s hard to know what you’ll be able to find. I would focus more on whether you can comfortably afford the program you want – I personally was not comfortable spending six figures for this degree.

  31. Anonymous

    I’m clerking at the Supreme Court in my state and I want to apply to a fed district court clerkship where my long term boyfriend is from but where I have 0 connection to on the rest of my resume. We are looking to move there if things work out. This clerkship is ~350 miles away from where I currently live and I can tell that they probably want someone with strong regional ties. Any tips on how I can incorporate my ties to the area and my thought to move there in my cover letter? It feels weird to say, I have ties to the area because my boyfriend grew up there…

    • Anon

      is it too dishonest to say you have family in the area? or a personal connection to the area? and that you are eager to settle there long term?

      • Anon

        Yeah, I think saying you have family in the area and you are moving there in September (or whenever).

    • Anon

      I would just say you are planning to move there with your partner/significant other because he grew up there. If things go bad with your relationship, you probably wouldn’t stay, right? If they’re looking for more connection than that, sorry, but you don’t have it.

    • Anon

      I would just say you have a personal connection to the area there and are looking to settle there long term.

    • Anon

      “At the conclusion of my current clerkship, I will be moving to Walla Walla with my partner.”

  32. Sara L.

    In case anyone is interested, the NYTimes had an article entitled “Criticism Is My Love Language.” The passage below reminded me of the back and forth that some posters were having recently about different communication styles:

    There’s no higher compliment given a Kashmiri than “sharp” or “clever,” traits displayed in our conversational style — teasing, skeptical, lively, but overall, yes, argumentative. Bickering, the long back-and-forth volley of conversational points, is our signature pastime. The writer Scaachi Koul once shared a video of her Kashmiri parents deciding where in the car to place a take-out samosa, and watching them pick each other apart, and then eat it together, made my eyes well with homesick tears. Our parents don’t talk about how much and why they love each other, they’ve mostly just stayed together. And argued. And made up over food. For thousands of years.

    • Anonymous

      I always love it when someone tries to fan the dead ashes of an argument that everyone else forgot about days ago. FFS. Like, is there seriously nothing else to do? Aren’t there enough fights here on the daily that we can forego trying to dig up dead bodies and reanimate them into new fights?

    • Anon

      Thanks for posting this. I think it’s interesting that it’s considered loving to bicker with someone in some cultures. I think the problem here is that it isn’t for most of us, and it’s more vicious here behind anonymity. These are not loved ones we are arguing with.

      • Anon

        I’m not the person who posted this, but I don’t think she’s trying to relate this to bickering here. There was a discussion yesterday or the day before about arguing and yelling (within families) and some people basically said that screaming is abuse and other people said that seems sort of racist, or at least not accepting of other cultures, to make a blanket declaration like that, because in some cultures raising your voice is much more normal than it is in WASP culture. I think that’s what OP meant when she said “the back and forth that some posters were having recently about different communication styles.”

  33. Lan Jevinson

    Has anyone tried the Modern Fertility tests? Husband and I are in our late twenties and don’t want to have kids for 5 – 6 years but thought some of the info might be good for us to know in advance. All the reviews I read online are positive, but wanted to check here too. Here is the link to their webpage: https://modernfertility.com/

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