Splurge Monday’s Workwear Report: Sheath Dress with Twist Waistband

385 Comments

1. Beautiful dress but very high slit.

   1. I love the twist detail at the waist though!

   2. I like this dress but it costs several hundred dollars more than I paid for my silk wedding gown, so nope.

   3. I laughed out loud when I read the fabric content.
      There is no way I would pay nearly 2K for a polyester anything.

      1. Yupppp

   4. It is beautiful, but crew necks look terrible on me.

2. Vent alert: Had the marriage timeline talk with boyfriend this weekend and he definitely wants to get married (good) but has a longer timeline than I do. Overall it’s a good thing, I understand where he’s coming from, and we’re both excited about our future, but I’m a little irrationally bummed that he wants to wait longer than I do.

   1. I would proceed with caution. If you are over 25 or so and have been together for a couple of years, you are mature enough and have spent enough time together to know what you want, and he could just be stringing you along with no real intention of marriage. If you are very young or haven’t been together for very long, some delay is reasonable and prudent.

   2. Not irrational in my view. What’s the reason for the longer timeline? There is never going to be a perfect time to get married so unless the reason is obvious (like you are long distance and planning to settle in the same city when you finish grad school or whatever) an arbitrary “I’m thinking more like 2 years” seems more like “I’m not actually 100% sure but want to say the right thing in the meantime” …. sorry.

      1. We’re finishing up grad school and so can’t move in together until July or so. And, reasonably I hope, we both want to live together first. Only disagreement is over how long

         1. When do you want to get married and when does he want to get married?

         2. I can understand being bummed but given the move not happening until July I can see a bit of a longer timeline making sense. I would encourage you to have a check in conversation 6 months or so after moving in together to see where you both stand and be clear that you will not continue living together unless you are engaged. I’ve seen too many friends move in together convinced it would lead to an engagement when in reality the guy was perfectly happy to live together indefinitely without ever proposing, something these women only found out much later than they would have liked.

            1. + 1 million.

         3. I personally don’t understand living together first. Why? If you know enough to know you’ll get married, what’s the point of that? Living with anyone is an adjustment and I hate to break it you, will always involve some level of irritation and compromise.

            1. I also don’t see the purpose to this. I think commitment actually helps with the adjustment of living together (vs. approaching it as some kind of trial period).

            2. Voice of dissent: living with my now-husband confirmed to me just how compatible we are. I think it helped cement that this was the right choice.

               I wouldn’t marry someone without living with them, going through financial stress with them, and being stuck traveling while with them. And when I say ‘stuck while traveling’, I mean ‘Oh wow. I guess we’re spending 12 hours in the Phoenix SkyHarbor Airport, eh?’

               It’s fair to be bummed but it sounds like he has logical reasons, not just the amorphous ‘the time isn’t right’. I think checking in when you move in sounds good.

            3. I would say this: if you can move in together and be that tied to each other, consider it with an engagement. You can break an engagement (and should if marrying doesn’t make sense), but it forces you to have the conversation about a social con vention with an end date and a direction. If you wouldn’t marry, you should break the engagement and move out. Otherwise, not having the convo and possibly avoiding it is primarily a risk to you if a future with kids and a husband is what you want. It’s easy to move in and still be there in 7 years just due to status. And as you go to wedding after wedding of friends, it will change. You deserve to know sooner vs later.

            4. Yeah, maybe it’s because I wasn’t young when I met my husband, but I sure as hell wasn’t about to sell my house for a mere boyfriend. I think it’s different if you’re like 24 and have only rented generic apartments. If you own property or even if you’ve rented the same place for a long time, giving up your home is a big deal and can have major financial impact to your life.

            5. Living together helped my husband and I be sure we were going to be able to live together without a lot of conflict and that were compatible enough in lifestyle and habits that we could make it work. I had seen several couples I know break up after living together, because even though love was there, they were too different in how they wanted to have their daily routines, run the household, etc.

               I think this is such a weird comment, honestly. I got married 20+ years ago and do not know anyone in the last 24 years who got married without living with the person they married first. Way, way more common than two people waiting until they get married to move in together. I swear, sometimes this blog is like stepping into a time warp, or something? In what universe in the United States is it weird, uncommon or atypical for people to live together before being married? Unless you are a super-conservative religious person or were born in the 1940s, I don’t see how people living together is a big deal.

            6. I was long distance from my boyfriend (now husband) for 4 years. I then graduated grad school and moved to same city as him. We lived apart for 8 months, then got engaged, moved in together, and married a year later (now married 7 years). Living in same city was a big transition in and of itself (with some bumps/adjustment to seeing each other more often, etc), so I would not recommend jumping into moving in right away. I was also adamant about not living with a boyfriend before engagement. You can stay at each others places to get a feel.

            7. There’s no way I’d marry someone without living with them first. Maybe someone has figured out another way to tell, but I want to know for sure that he’s going to be an equal partner in the home before marriage.

               For the person who is reluctant to leave her house— all the people I know where both owned houses chose one to move into and kept their house until the couple decided to stay together for sure.

            8. +1 to Anon at 10:35 AM.

            9. To each their own, but I could tell that my husband was going to be an equal partner from spending time with him over weekends etc. We had both been fully functional adults for years. I view any kind of moving as serious business. I was not going to subject myself to that for someone that didn’t know they wanted to stay with me for sure.

            10. Also the voice of dissent. I lived with my now husband for about 8 years before we married. I would never consider marrying someone without living together first. (FWIW, I was the one who chose to delay making it official.)

         4. If you’ve been long distance for a while, I can see why both of you would want some time to explore the relationship when you’re in the same place with marriage as a possible (not definite) end point. Living together before marriage because you’re not sure enough yet to get married isn’t necessarily helpful IMO. Living together will make it a lot harder to end the relationship if you decide it’s not right, and I think some people who live together end up getting married with doubts because it’s just so much easier in the moment.

         5. While my now husband wanted to live together, I declined. I had lived with someone before, and we broke up, and the process of breaking up and finding a new place to live was so overwhelming and unbearable that I swore to myself that I would never do it again. I told my husband that we can figure this out without living together, we spend a lot of time at each other’s homes, we travel together, we see each other’s families. let’s just decide. And so we did. You can move to the same city, and get your own places, and figure it out. Or, get engaged and then live together.

            1. +1. I would not willingly move in with someone without a commitment.

         6. Are you long distance and therefore don’t go through regular boring life together much, or just living separately but see each other regularly?

            1. I have a longer response in moderation – but YES. It’s a big adjustment to go from seeing each other only on weekends where everything is happy and perfect to experiencing the every day mundane together.

         7. Do not live together. Men drag these co-habitation situations out for years and years because they are not “ready”. Either he wants to marry you or he doesn’t. See: John Hamm.
            Get the commitment first. Your time is too precious to waste.

            1. +1 million

            2. Wow, this advice is super out-of-touch. People can live together and be committed to each other without needing to get married first. I moved in with my husband before we got married with the explicit understanding that sooner rather than later, we would need to get engaged and then get married, within a reasonable timeframe (I was pretty young, so for me, this was 4 years). He knew from jump that if he didn’t want to get married at some point, he should bail. He did want to get married, but A. we wanted to make sure we were compatible living together – not all couples are and B. we were young and broke and wanted to share expenses – rent, utilities, food, etc. It made a ton of sense, and 20+ years later, it still made sense that we lived together before getting married. There is a middle ground between “be a doormat and get strung along” and “be ridiculous and demand immediate marriage as soon as things get serious.”

               I love how some folks here are like “just get married! Don’t live together!” as though marriage is not a significant legal commitment and entanglement that can take years to undo if someone makes a mistake. Divorces are costly – in more ways than financially. I would never, ever become legally bound to someone I had not lived with first because of how ugly divorces can get. And no, prenups do not automatically solve that. Not the emotional part.

            3. This. If you’ve been long-distance it makes sense to wait to get engaged until you’ve been living in the same area and seeing each other frequently for some time, but I wouldn’t move in together. My husband and I lived in the same apartment complex while dating and it was perfect.

            4. I think what people are saying is that living together is an enormous commitment that in many ways is just as much of an entanglement as marriage, so if you aren’t ready to get married you aren’t ready to live together either. Not “just get married.”

            5. Yikes.

         8. Definitely live together before you get married!

            1. No one is disagreeing. I think it’s more: don’t take yourself off the market and move in without a serious discussion about where this is headed. Like engaged (in the sense of “this is moving towards marriage with a date for a wedding” and not the people who have been engaged for 6 years) is a good rule of thumb b/c you’ve likely had some very serious discussions and are both on the same page re moving forward, goals, timing. Something more than “my lease is ending and I can’t find another roommate and want to share expenses.”

            2. I would never get engaged without living together first, but I also view living together as a pre-engagement of sorts. Like, I will only move in with a man if we’re both planning on getting engaged / married within a reasonable timeframe, but I still want to trial living together before we get engaged.

            3. Oh I disagree, you’re in or out and if the petty differences of living together break you up, then you should have had a lot more clues before that. Why entangle your lives prematurely? If it’s going to be a marriage, go ahead but trial periods and testing is just a path to a messy breakup.

            4. “If it’s going to be a marriage, go ahead but trial periods and testing is just a path to a messy breakup.”

               This is wrong, and there are multiple posters here who are happily married, but lived with their partners first, attesting to the idea that it can and does work. The truth is not whatever you say it is, because that’s what you believe. If you want to be in community with people who are making up their own reality as they go along, and don’t want to listen to anyone else’s opinions ever, try the comment sections on the Fox News website.

         9. I agree with waiting until you’re settled into your careers and making some money first, but that’s maybe a year. Do you have a sense of his timeline?

            “Someday” isn’t good enough.

      2. This.

   3. It’s not irrational! It’s ok to want to
      Person you’re excited to marry to also want to do that as a priority with you

   4. You aren’t irrationally upset. Maybe an unpopular opinion: once you’re a grown adult (stable job, mature), and you have been dating long enough to know you want to get married… just get engaged, set a date, and get married. There is very little to be gained by waiting for the sake of waiting.

      1. This.

      2. This. If those conditions are met and the guy doesn’t want to get married “right now,” he doesn’t want to get married to you ever.

         1. I disagree. Also many26 year olds don’t have stable jobs. It’s super common to be in grad or professional school at that age.

      3. +1. If you don’t move in together until July then at that point you’ll be together 9 months on top of however long you’ve already been together. It’s fair to wait until you’ve lived together a few months to start ring shopping, but how much more time does this guy need to figure out that he wants to marry you? Assuming he needs more time to be certain, how much time are *you* willing to invest in him? If you’re 26 now, move in together at 27, and a year later he still isn’t sure about marrying you then you break up and you’re starting over at 28. Are you willing to start over any later than that?

         The best advice I got was to figure out how long you’re willing to invest in a relationship before getting engaged, communicate it to the guy before moving in, and hold yourself to that timeline. It’s easy to make excuses or kick the can down the road once you’re already living together. I know people who have gotten F-ed over and wasted years of their life this way.

      4. Yep. My friend lived together with a guy for almost 5 years before finally giving him an ultimatum. This was ages 28-33 for my friend. Guy was a few years older, and both with steady professional jobs. He proposed the final day of her ultimatum (literally on New Years Eve). She was sticking to her timeline and had already started house shopping and even found a great house that her realtor was going to put an offer on that week. They got married 8 months later. A few months later, guy starts being wishy-washy about wanting kids. Now she’s 35 and suddenly married to someone who “changed his mind” about something as important as children. Apparently he was stringing her along all those years hoping that she’d either change her mind about kids or will be too old to have kids. She’s furious but doesn’t want to start over again… I guess trying to change his mind back is “easier” than potentially not having kids with anyone else (by the time she meets and marries someone else, it will likely be too late). If a guy, who is otherwise of an appropriate age and in a stable situation, needs 5 years to commit to someone, there’s either a lack of maturity or he doesn’t actually want to commit to you (see Jon Hamm or George Clooney).

   5. I don’t know if you want kids and if you do what your timeline for that is, but I do know a lot of men who are absolutely blindsided by the biological clock. Of course, many women have kids in their late 30s /early 40s, and many younger women have trouble conceiving but if you and your boyfriend are considering kids, it may be worth reminding him of that.

      1. Definitely want kids. Fortunately, I’m only 26, so I don’t think a little delay is a huge deal, though please correct me if I’m wrong!

         1. I’d imagine you’re fine then! A few of my friends are early to mid 30s and in the same boat as you, and for them biological clock is top of mind which is why I brought it up.

         2. If you’re both only 26 then I don’t think it’s a big deal to wait for marriage.

            1. Yeah, sadly if you’re only 26 I’d date a lot more and not race to marry anyone.

            2. Anon at 10:04 – no, she does not need to do that. If she feels like she’s found her person, she absolutely can stay with this person and see it through awhile longer. 26 is young; she’s got plenty of time. She should not let someone string her along indefinitely, but she is fine staying where she is for now. I’m sorry if you’re unhappy with how things worked out in your life, or whatever your comment is about, but please don’t project that on other people.

            3. If you have found the right person then 26 is a great age to get married, especially if you are both finished with grad school. The only reason not to get married in this case would be that it isn’t really the right person.

            4. Another reason to not get married right now is if you’ve got better things to do or spend money on right now. We were basically engaged for 8 years while we were in school, early years of jobs. We knew marriage was down the line, and I considered us more or less engaged, but we didn’t call it that publicly because then everyone wants to know when the wedding is. And I didn’t see a point in spending my energy planning an event when I was busy and couldn’t afford the event I wanted. Eventually we had more expendable money, wanted to buy a house together, and wanted kids together, so we got married. Which I didn’t see as any big step in our relationship, just a nice event and some legal recognition.

            5. In anon at 1:17’s situation I would just get married and skip the big wedding. It is fun and romantic to go through those late 20s grad school/starting out years as a married couple. My husband and I still look back fondly on those days of living in an apartment with no kids and few responsibilities. Dating was fun but being married was more fun.

            6. As a counterpoint to the 2:55 poster, I didn’t think being married (without kids) felt appreciably different than just living together, and I’m glad we waited on marriage until we could afford a big party! You hopefully only get married once, so it’s a once in a lifetime chance to have everyone you love in one room, and it’s really special. People will be be happy for you at graduations and baby showers, but it’s not the same level of involvement where people will fly across the world to be there in person. I would have regretted it so much if I’d passed up the opportunity to have a real wedding. I’m in my late 30s now and mostly done attending weddings and in fact have seen some of my long distance friends at funerals more recently than weddings, which is just depressing AF.

         3. What I always tell people is to count backwards. Now, many women conceive quite easily in their late 30s, but mid-30s is also too late for many women. Infertility treatments work better the younger you are – things that the IVF industry doesn’t really advertise. Women who have had kids with big age gaps say that pregnancy in their late 30s is a different ballgame than earlier in life – it is incredibly hard.

            If you want to have two kids and your last one at 35, that means your first at 33, pregnant at 32, married at 30 or 31 so you at least have some time to enjoy the life of a childless married couple. (It’s special – don’t underestimate it.) If your husband isn’t this dude, generally plan for 2 years before marriage (meet, date, get engaged, plan wedding).

            The advantage of that timeline is that if something happens – early infertility, move somewhere for your jobs, both of you working around the clock to get promotions, one of you gets cancer or into an accident and needs extensive medical care – you have some play in your family planning schedule.

            If things don’t work out with this guy, you want to find that out within the next year or so, not three or four years from now.

            1. This is a good point – I never really did the math when counting backwards and trying to figure out the timeline for kids (I knew I always wanted two). I ended up never having that childless married couple time, or rather, not very much of it, but that was nbd to me and my husband. What does end up being hard is having multiple pregnancies in short order in your late 30s because you feel pressed by the clock, which is what I did. It also does a number on your career. I’m mid-40s now and my career is better than ever, and my kids are happy and healthy, but it was rough going for a while (and we have outsourced so much to a FT nanny, weekly cleaners AND we have amazing fairly regular grandparent help).

            2. This comment just gave me, a single 35 year old who wants children, a massive amount of anxiety and also really hurt—life is not that linear nor is it that easy.

            3. “This comment just gave me, a single 35 year old who wants children, a massive amount of anxiety and also really hurt—life is not that linear nor is it that easy.”

               Completely agree. But she did not make the comment “at” you.

            4. ALT, I hope things work out for you.

               I just think people are really flippant about pregnancy at almost-40 on up. I get mad because if some dude drags his feet because “you can have a baby at 40,” it isn’t him having needles stuck up his butt so they can have a baby via IVF.

               There are things that can work out fine as a back up plan but that doesn’t mean it should be the default Plan A of people who have a choice.

         4. I’d imagine you both have a good amount of time BUT if you haven’t yet it also seems like a good idea to have in depth conversations about division of labor/expectations around child rearing. I know a shocking number of ‘liberal’ men who were all for their wives working/contributing evenly financially before kids and wanted children but didn’t expect to do more than ‘watch’ the baby sometimes while having all the laundry/dinner/childcare taken care of.
            It might also be helpful to take a look at daycare costs in your city, we couldn’t afford a mortgage and daycare payment in our VHCOL area until our child was out of the infant room (more expensive because they can only watch ~6-7 kids) and I got a raise.

            1. Yes. This is the reason to live together before you get married, especially if you are long distance now. How does he react when you have a busy season at work – is he taking over some of your usual burden or does it go undone? How does he communicate about chores, and are you the default “manager” of chores (even if he dies then)? And if you can’t talk about this type of thing with him, that’s a red flag to me. Begin as you mean to go on. Do not play house and take care of him, or once you have kids you will be very sorry. He will not change those habits and the patterns will be set.

               Also, I agree on researching childcare costs, and doing what you can to build a nest egg. Kids are expensive. And I’ve seen it multiple times where the mom quits her (professional) job to stay home because “my income barely covers childcare, so what’s the point?” That’s both not a good reason to be a SAHP nor is it economically true it a fair way to look at the childcare expense (it allows both parents to work, not just mom). Also make sure he’s willing to ask about and take parental leave. If he’s not willing to do so, another red flag.

               You have time and space to have these conversations! Do it now, so you have time to really think through what you want out of a partner, marriage, parenthood.

               FWIW I got married young (24), we lived together before we married, we waited 7 years to have kids, and just celebrated our 15 year anniversary .

            2. In general “modern” men expect their wives to continue working after the baby and contribute financially, but invisibly handle most of the child care and household labor. They will mow the lawn or do the dishes but that’s about it. They also get mad when their wives’ careers are inevitably mommy tracked because they can’t devote themselves 100% to their jobs the way a man can.

            3. “In general “modern” men expect their wives to continue working after the baby and contribute financially, but invisibly handle most of the child care and household labor. They will mow the lawn or do the dishes but that’s about it. They also get mad when their wives’ careers are inevitably mommy tracked because they can’t devote themselves 100% to their jobs the way a man can.”

               This is a really big generalization. I’m sorry you know so many crappy men; the men I know and am friends with are not like this at all. My husband is not like this at all. He does way more than just “mow the lawn (TBF: we don’t have a lawn) or do the dishes.”

            4. Agreed, there are many many men who actually treat their partner like a partner. In my case, my husband actually does the majority of the child care and housework and household logistics.

            5. My husband is also not like this, nor are most of the men I know whose wives work. He’s always been in more of the primary parent role, and does more of the day-to-day chores, including cooking dinner for the family 4-5 nights per week (the rest are restaurants/takeout; I don’t cook). I do more of the emotional/invisible labor, so I think we have a pretty fair partnership, but if anyone is doing more than their share overall, it’s him.

               Can we please stop normalizing crappy men??? They exist, but they’re not the norm and we shouldn’t let them off the hook with “oh this is normal.” A man who thinks his contribution should be limited to mowing the lawn and taking out the trash is a classic 1950s dad (my grandfathers did that!) and not a “modern man.”

            6. I don’t know, I know a lot of women married to exactly that sort of “modern man”. I’m not – my husband is a very equal parent and household contributor- but I see it more than I would expect. And I guarantee you those women did not expect the unequal division of labor they are now experiencing, especially as parents.

               That’s why it’s very, very important to be vocal about this and stop normalizing it by refusing to accept it for yourself and by talking explicitly about it before marriage and making sure there’s follow through when living together.

         5. It depends entirely on how long you expect to be engaged for and how long you want to be married before having kids. In fall 2023, our church is booked for weekend weddings throughout June/July/August 2024. Some people want to try for kids right after they get married and others prefer to wait.

            1. So you get married in May or September.

            2. May/September is a no go for most/many people with kids in school or school year jobs – teachers/professors/uni admin/coaches etc. Almost no one has all local friends/family anymore. There’s a reason summer weddings are popular.

            3. Some of the comments on here are so bizarre. In my state, weddings in May and September/October have become the trendy months bc summer is getting so hot. This is very much dependent on location and venue preference. What is the point of trying to tell this person they need to get married June, July or August and can’t next summer because *your specific church* is booked?

            4. Where I live, April / May and September / October are more common wedding months than the summer! I have three April weddings in 2024.

               In my circle, almost no one has kids at weddings though, and almost no one getting married has friends with kids yet (and certainly not school age kids). If there are kids at weddings, they’re the nieces / nephews of the couple but that’s still rare.

               My mom is a teacher, and even she didn’t plan her wedding around the school year! She got married on a Saturday in March; she worked on Friday, got married on Saturday, and was back to work on Monday and then my parents took a honeymoon after the school year ended.

   6. It might be a bad idea to have a further discussion about timelines. Like DH and I were on the same page about wanting to be married 3-4 years before starting to try for kids. That was a different timeline compared to friends who planned to start trying right after the wedding.

      FWIW my DH was not on the same page on timing in part because the country he comes from tends to have short engagements so he expected we would get married about 4-6 months after getting engaged.It was important to me to get married in my hometown church and that involves booking a year out. We discussed and adjusted timelines.

      1. Is there a not missing from your first sentence? You should be able to talk to your future spouse about anything, if they’re going to be your spouse.

         1. Agreed!!

            And also in the year of our goddess 2023, there is nothing wrong with booking the church a year in advance and then having the proposal on his timeline.

            1. omg if you booked the church you are engaged. You’re just not wearing a ring.

            2. Right— that’s what I’m saying. When you know you want to get married, you’re engaged. Why do you have to wait for the proposal to start planning if it takes longer to plan the wedding you want? He’s not the only one who gets to pick the timeline.

            3. I’m confused. Presumably he hasn’t proposed because he’s not ready to get engaged. Going ahead and booking a church — which is also a means of getting engaged — doesn’t seem to solve the underlying issue of not wanting to commit to an engagement on the same timeline?

            4. Ahh, I understood it differently. I thought she meant they both definitely want to get married, but he was putting off giving the actual ring. I hate the idea that the woman waits around for a ring (leaving it up to him only) for the couple to really know they’re getting married. I was reading with that bias!

            5. It’s kind of weird to book a church if you haven’t even agreed that you want to be married. What if his timeline is like in five years and you’ve booked the church a year out?

            6. I know a few people who have booked wedding venues pre-engagement. It was more a factor of the man wanted to propose XYZ way which needed to happen at a specific time (on a vacation, on their dating anniversary, doing a shared favorite seasonal activity), but they knew the engagement was imminent, the wedding was 12-18 months out, and venues needed to be booked. In my city, venues are commonly booked 18 months out, so there’s plenty of time to book a venue, then get engaged later.

            7. You can’t book a church unless you are engaged! The pastor will want to meet with the couple first before agreeing to perform the marriage and reserve the church.

            8. Ha this reminds me of a friend who booked a church way in advance for a dream wedding date (7/7/07) without her then-bf being on board or ready to get engaged. He broke up with her soon after, not surprisingly. Although she was engaged to someone else within 6 months, and that marriage has lasted quite a while now.

            9. Anon at 11:48, I just commented but my friend booked a church without her then-BF knowing. I’m sure the priest would have wanted to meet with them extensively before the eventual wedding, but at the time she did this it was really early (she booked almost 2 years in advance) and they let her put down some kind of small monetary deposit to hold the date without requiring any meetings with the couple. So it is a thing that happens!

         2. Yes – that should read ‘might not be a bad idea’ as in it would be a good idea

   7. It is interesting to me that many above suggest not to move in together before being engaged with a clear timeline to get married.

      In my European country, it is the norm to live together for a few years, unmarried. Some of our friends and family who are approaching their 40s are still living together unmarried after 10+ years of being together, and I would say they are as committed to their relationships as married couples (where we’ve seen a few divorces, actually).

      I lived together with my husband for 4 years before getting married at age 25, and fo us it was good to go through a few ups and downs and life changes together (e.g. starting and finishing graduate school, job hunt, parent’s health issues, and also positive things like extended travel etc). While it would have been messy to break up, not having legal issues on top of that would have made it easier.

      Admittedly, the situation may be different when you’re in your mid-30s, with plans to have children soon, and established with your own apartment/house – in that case, trying to live together for a limited time with a clear path to marriage may be better.

      But in OPs case, if they are in their mid-20s, they still have time, and waiting another year or two may not be a dealbreaker. There are, in my opinion, other ways to assess how committed a partner is to the relationship than just a marriage timeline.

      1. Right! I’m pretty shocked at the above answers. It makes me feel like I’ve traveled back in time somehow.

         1. Exactly my feelings, too.

            I recently read a book “From Front Porch to Backseat” by Beth Bailey. It is about the history of dating in the US, and was super insightful for me in understanding the American conventions about dating and marriage and how they have changed over the decades. Definitely recommend it!

            1. Thanks for the recommendation!

         2. Alternately, a lot of us got burned by men who dragged things out indefinitely.

            1. That’s your stuff. Don’t put that on someone else.

            2. Odd. Every couple I know who is married a) lived together pre-engagement and b) got engaged within 2 years of living together. It’s a very normal pre-engagement step in my circle. Im 30, btw, so in the throes of people getting married.

            3. Anon at 11:39, no one is “putting that on” anyone else. They are pointing out a real downside. Sorry you can’t understand the difference but that’s on you (and I suspect you’re the one putting your stuff in other people).

         3. I think it’s a completely different situation than people’s past reluctance to live together before marriage. Nobody is concerned about propriety or sex before marriage. It’s more like you’re a woman who has your own life and accomplishments. Why give things up for a man who isn’t even sure that he wants to be with you?

            When you’re young you’re still building your life, so it makes sense to build it together. When you already have some things built, it’s different.

         4. it’s 100% very common in america… but I think what you’re seeing here is the benefit of women who are already past the dating/marriage stage and have seen how this plays out – men who dragged it on too long without any intention of marrying, couples who fought dirty and then got married and were surprised they were still fighting, people who wanted to break up but it was a PITA or cost prohibitive to find a new apartment so the relationship dragged on longer.

            i would suggest that one of you takes a room with a roommate. the other one gets an apartment they can afford on their own salary. then you both spend all your time over at the solo apartment.

            if he’s saying his timeline is more than 1 year away to even propose, i would definitely do this… no concern about breaking a lease. you can look for a new “together” home once he proposes.

         5. I think it’s the opposite actually. Once upon a time people got married young before they had assets and a life of their own. No way was I disrupting that to live with my husband before marriage. We were mature enough to figure out that getting married made sense and we worked out the logistics once we were committed. We didn’t move in until after the wedding.

         6. I’m firmly of the belief that living together for a while is the best way to avoid broken engagements or early divorces.

            1. That’s fair. But I worry a lot less about broken engagements and early divorces than divorces later on when lives are more entangled.

            2. IDK. Anecdotally, I have not seen it play out that way in my circle. Living together might’ve prevented early divorces but it surely didn’t prevent the divorces that happened after 10-15 years of marriage. Either way, the result is the same.

            3. anon@12:50 – the stats back you up. Living together is associated with a lower divorce rate within 1 year of marriage, but longer term, couples who lived together are more likely to divorce than those who didn’t. Now, there may be selection bias there (couples who are unwilling to live together are also less willing to divorce), but the idea that cohabitation is protective against divorce in the long term is not borne out, statistically.

            4. Yep. Also, why I don’t take advice on this point from people who only been married a couple of years.

            5. I’m 12:32 and I’ve been married for 24 years.

      2. I think if it’s culturally common to have marriage level commitment without marrying, that’s different. (Catholic Europe had so-called clandestine marriage until the 16th century, right? And despite the Vatican, still has them now even among religious people.)

         The pattern that’s concerning is when men specifically are hesitating to make the commitment, but otherwise want to live liked a married couple indefinitely — or like a married couple but without starting a family, again because of hesitation and anxiety, which may well be a US context thing. This can stretch on for many, many years. Sometimes it works out as people grow up and work through it together. Sometimes it turns out he was just waiting to meet the woman he cannot marry and start a family with fast enough.

         1. I can think of a lot of John Hamm situations where you have a long-term non-married couple and then a sudden wedding with someone else. I have to think: past a year, you should know if you want to get married (possibly) and if you want to get married TO THE PERSON YOU’RE CURRENTLY COUPLED WITH. Sometimes, when there is no wedding, my default is that someone in the couple is keeping their options open, especially if they are younger (vs older / divorced / family business / with kids / don’t want to mess up a pension or social security or stuff like that).

      3. This is a cultural difference though. My DH is European – his brother and partner have been together for 10 years and have 3 kids and we have numerous friends together 20 yrs plus with kids.

         The same trend is seen in Quebec as well. I think it’s a reaction to the Catholic Church as I don’t see the trend to the same extent in other areas.

         Marriage can be important to people as a religious commitment and/or because there are significant financial securities and benefits for women. Eg if women have less pension because they have fewer working years due to child rearing. In my jurisdiction, the marital home is automatically joint property if you are married but you have no right to the house if you are not.

      4. “In my European country, it is the norm to live together for a few years, unmarried.”

         It’s the norm here in America too. I have no idea where those anti-cohabitation posters above are coming from. It’s possible they’re elderly, really religious, or do not live in the United States. I can’t think of another explanation that makes sense.

         1. Living together pre-marriage for a few years is really common in the US, but doing so for a decade and having kids without being married is still quite uncommon (especially in the professional working class). In parts of Europe, I know it’s common to live together and have kids without being married. While it’s common to live together pre-marriage in the US, it’s not the same of the European situation as described above.

            That being said, I don’t know a single married couple my age (late 20s/early 30s) who didn’t live together pre-engagement or pre-marriage. Including some really religious folks or people with traditional families who did not approve!

            1. This. My husband is French and many of his friends still live there. All of his friends have a partner and children at this point (he and they are mid-40s), but an overwhelming majority of them either never got married to their partner or got married when their kids were 5+ years old. I think that is more along the lines of what the post re European cultural differences was referencing.

               Similar to Anon at 11:40 though, I also don’t know anyone in the US who got married without living together first. Some moved in right around the time they got engaged, but many moved in well before that.

            2. I think a lot of that is because getting PACS-ed is so popular. If the US had a similar type of union, I bet our numbers would be more similar.

            3. I’m not sure it would be different if the US had a PACS equivalent. Americans are very attached to the idea of marriage, much more so than Europeans. My best friend is an American but living in France for decades and now a French citizen, and in a long term partnership with a French man. They are PACS-ed but she wants to be properly married before kids, which is a real sticking point in their relationship (especially because we’re in our late 30s and she’s running out of time to have biological children). If the relationship ends, it will almost certainly be because of this issue. I think it would take a big cultural shift to get Americans, particularly, American women, to accept PACS as an alternative to marriage.

         2. I’m early 40s, not especially religious, and have lived in the United States for most of my life. And have seen a lot of my friends move in with guys who swear they want to get engaged “but just aren’t ready quite yet.”. And have helped those friends move out 3-4 years later when it turns out that they were fundamentally not on the same emotional page about the future. I’ve seen this happen at least 3 times in my group of college/grad school friends, and in 2 of those cases the guy had met/married another woman within 3 years of the breakup while my friend was single for a much longer time.

            Living together when you’re on the same page about your future is one thing. Moving in together when you’re not is a very different thing, and it is also unfortunately common.

            1. This.

            2. I was adamant that I wouldn’t live with a guy before getting engaged or married for precisely this reason. When I was in my 20s, I had way too many straight women friends who lived with a guy for several years before a really bad breakup where they had to move out in a hurry or pay rent in a place that was a stretch on one income (LA was a bad housing market when I came out here 25 years ago and it’s even worse now).

               Also, dating guys post-college had given me some insight into their general level of domestic skill and in the early 00s, their abilities in that area were generally…not great. My spouse and I moved in together about four months after we got engaged. We wouldn’t have waited that long but we were hoping his roommate would move out (it was a huge rent-controlled apartment).

               My parents are pretty traditional WASPs, and they were fine that we moved in together while engaged, but some of my fundie relatives pitched a fit and wanted to rat me out to my grandparents. Fun times.

         3. Agreed. I didn’t know we were doing Corporette the 1950s edition here today. The only people I know who didn’t live together first are extremely religious types.

            1. For me, it has nothing to do with religion. I didn’t want to live together as I had finally found a lovely one bedroom apt, had already experienced heartache when I was living with someone and had to break up AND move, and we lived 5 miles apart and saw each other all the time, slept over, cooked and cleaned, etc. I felt we could figure it out without living together, and now at 34 years of marriage, I think it worked out.

         4. None of the above. Try old enough to see it blow up for a lot of people (John Hahm situations, messy fights over apartments, bad marriages because it was just easier to go along since they were already living together that ended in divorce, protracted breakups because now there’s logistics, etc etc etc.). F*ck all you want, religion has nothing to do with it nor do “50s” trends. It’s all about being practical.

            1. Definitely have seen too much of this. It works out fine for some people but when it doesn’t, it’s a disaster.

         5. Not elderly nor religious, only experienced. I have seen more than one friend who stuck with a guy who would be ready in 6 months, every 6 months for years and years. When he was ready he found a younger girl.

            1. Okay but that’s not a product of living together. That’s a product of mismatched expectations and her not breaking up with him when he went back on his word.

            2. Yup, that just happened to a 40ish friend of mine last year. Somehow her same-age boyfriend was never ready for marriage with my friend, but the early 20s affair partner? Bring on the cake tasting!

            3. Not that Anon, but living together can sometimes mean that you’re pushing off decision making. It makes sense when you’re 21. When you’re 35, if you don’t know within a year or two then I think you have an answer right there.

            4. I think the point is it’s a lot harder to break up when he goes back on his word or changes the timeline when you are living together and breaking up means you now have to find a new place to live, extricate your stuff, etc.

            5. But it’s harder to get divorced!

            6. It’s only marginally less hard than getting divorced. That’s the point. Why sign up for that more likely outcome? At least when you’re married the starting point isn’t “let’s see if this works out.”

            7. “It’s only marginally less hard than getting divorced. That’s the point.”

               Absolutely not. Not in my state, at least, which has community property laws. Unless you consider extricating someone from having equal access and responsibility to your property and financial resources to be a “marginal” task. Go ask someone in a community property state who had a brief, bad marriage what they went through, especially if they dealt with someone who had misused marital assets, or they had jointly-owned property.

               “Why sign up for that more likely outcome? At least when you’re married the starting point isn’t “let’s see if this works out.”

               If you’re using the (non-cited, actually) “statistics” someone was throwing around – please also look at overall divorce statistics for middle income couples where both parties have graduated from college. Divorce stats are low, even after many years of marriage. So that factors in. And also? In the U.S., the starting point is ALWAYS “let’s see if this works out” because we have no-fault divorce. Every single couple I know, whether they cohabited or not, looked at marriage as – “we will work to make this work out; hopefully it will work out; but divorce is an option if something like cheating or abuse happens.” How is that news, in 2023?

               I honestly feel like I am talking to someone who just showed up in 2023 after being in cryopreservation since the 1950s. WOW.

            8. Let me guess, 4:19, you’re 28 and living with your boyfriend.

         6. There are all kinds of people out there with a variety of views. Maybe this will make sense to you: I sold my house when I got engaged and moved in with my fiance. If we had ended up breaking up after a couple years, due to things like the post-Covid real estate market, I would have been six figures in the hole and unable to buy another house like my old one. I also missed out on some job opportunities due to moving, which is another financial hit. I wasn’t cool with making that level of financial sacrifice for a dude that didn’t want to go all the way. I live in the US, am not elderly, and am an atheist. If I had just graduated from college, I probably would have chosen differently as I’d have nothing to lose. I had a lot to lose, though.

            1. This. This. This. It’s all the 25 year olds who are on their first apartments who don’t get it. Or for them it makes sense because they don’t have anything to lose yet.

      5. I’m surprised by these comments too.

         In my social circle it’s very common to want to live together before getting engaged. I’m 28, moved in with my husband at 24, got engaged at 25, and married at 26. A lot of my friends considered this a whirlwind!

         OP, I would listen to your gut about his level of excitement/commitment. Also it’s okay to compromise on timeline — maybe a little later than you would prefer but ALSO sooner than he’s thinking.

      6. ^ this. Canadian here. Entirely normal in my friend group for people to be in long-term committed relationships, and eventually get around to getting married (sometimes after kids). To the OP, you are only 26 and waiting a year or two is not a bad idea.

         1. Disagree. Also in Canada and I only know a couple people who have kids outside marriage. None of the lawyers I know have kids outside marriage.

            Not getting married before kids is definitely seen as a lower class thing here.

            1. This.

               At any rate, you can’t know if you’re with Mr. Forever or John Hamm without having a discussion — why wonder when you can know? And what do you want? If you can’t imagine your life with someone else, you do need to say so b/c you deserve to know if he will run toward that or flee upon hearing it.

         2. Also in Canada (but Quebec). Super common for people to be in long term non-married relationships around here, it’s definitely not seen as lower class that I know of (the CEO of my previous company was not married, and neither was my big law mentor, and they both had families). The legal benefits of marriage here are very slim and mostly matter if one spouse stays home and wants alimony if they split up. Obviously lots of people get married too, for a variety of reasons.

            1. If you look at the stats across the country though Quebec is quite different from the other provinces esp for colleges educated couples.

      7. People who are longterm living together without plans to marry, because marriage is not important to them, are in a fundamentally different place than people who are contemplating living together as a precursor to marriage. The United States does not have a cultural norm of straight couples living together longterm without intent to marry. It happens, but it’s not common. Unmarried parenthood is common, but that is not typically in the context of couples who are living together in a stable, committed way – this is not Iceland. The United States still has strong norms around marriage being the desired end state for straight relationships, especially those where children are hoped for (and those norms hold true even for many women who are unmarried moms, btw – they’re unmarried because of issues with their partners, not because they don’t want to be).

         Many people live together before marriage in the US – probably most – but a lot of women (justifiably) have concerns that some men use cohabitation to put off a decision about marriage, and so it’s not surprising that there would be cautions against living together in a country where marriage remains the normative goal for straight couples. I think that’s particularly worth concern in a situation like the OP’s, where they are already not on the same page about timelines for marriage.

         1. Also, in the US, the way our legal rights and employee benefits work, if you have kids without being married, the law takes care of the kids but not of a never-married co-parent unless you jointly title all assets and make a lot of elections with regard to survivorship. Not getting married is like a great pre-nup if your assets are wildly different (unlikley with the very young but more so if you are 40/50).

      8. Same. It’s eyeopening to me how many people are saying not to live together before marriage as that would never occur to me. I don’t know anyone who hasn’t lived together before marriage, the only people I’ve heard of doing that are people who are not doing that for religious reasons (but I don’t know them personally).

         Obviously to each their own, but moving out is so much easier than dissolving a marriage so it was always an absolute must for me. DH and I moved in together after 1 year, engaged after just under two years, and married after 3. We were early 30s when we met but friends who got together younger did tend to live together longer, but that is of course purely anecdotal and means nothing.

         1. +1, if you’re not living together before marriage I assume you’re so religious that you’re waiting for marriage (which, where I live is very rare). Even the very religious people I know (albeit not from denominations that really force the waiting for marriage) lived together pre-marriage!

            1. It’s not all about religion. As we saw in one of last week’s discussions, there are many women who would like to take a more cautious approach to premarital relationships for valid emotional and practical reasons but are pressured by society and current concepts of “feminism” to sleep with men very early in the dating relationship. This problem extends to cohabitation as well. Women who would otherwise prefer to be engaged or married before moving in are pressured by societal expectations that you must live with a partner before engagement. It’s sad and anti-woman.

            2. I think you’re conflating two very different things. I do agree with you that some women feel pressured to get physical too soon, and that’s unfortunate.
               But I don’t know *anyone* who felt pressure to live with a spouse before marriage. If anything, there is often a lot of pressure the opposite way (from older more conservative relatives, society, etc.). Every woman I know who lived with a partner before marriage really wanted to and in many cases did it against significant external pressure in the opposite direction.
               Personally, in my religion (reform Jewish) there is no stigma about living together pre-marriage, and I would never have married someone I hadn’t lived with for at least a year or so. Otherwise how do you know if you’re compatible??

            3. It’s not always about religion! Some of us take the practical standpoint that there is no use in getting finances and homes entangled before the relationship is solid enough for marriage. (Being married, not just talking about it.)

            4. I think it’s “anti-woman” to assume women are not smart enough to understand their own needs and negotiate the meeting of those needs with their partner. Or to assume that women don’t have agency in their own lives. Adult women are fully-formed, autonomous human beings with agency. Absolutely no one is saying “go ahead and get into a long-term distance low-commitment casual relationship with a guy and move into his Mojo Dojo Casa House without talking about your expectations around marriage. Surely nothing bad will come of that!” Women should be clear – with themselves, and with their partners – about commitment expectations. There should be clear, unequivocal conversations. But women do have to take the bull by the horns and drive this conversation if necessary; not sit on their hands hoping the guy brings it up. That’s part of being a full-formed, autonomous adult with control over your own destiny.

         2. Yeah, I agree with this. I don’t know anyone who met in adulthood and didn’t live together first.

            I know some people here are saying they don’t think you should live together because the man might not want to get married, but that feels like a long way of saying “why buy the cow when the milk is free?” Which is so gross and out dated.

            Obviously two people in a relationship should be on the same page. If people want to live together and get engaged, they should be on the same page about this, and about timing if that’s important to them! But if they’re on the same page about timing, and then one person in the couple balks for no good reason, break up. That’s way better than getting married and then realizing that you’re legally enmeshed with a person who only mows the lawn and expects you to do everything else…

            1. The red flag here is that OP and the boyfriend are not on the same page about timing, which means they are probably not really on the same page about the seriousness of the relationship. This is a red flag that he is hesitant to commit to OP and doesn’t really intend to marry her. That’s why people are advising her not to move in. She’ll give up her independence and move in with him and waste several years before she finally realizes they are never getting married and then goes through a huge emotional and logistical hassle to extricate herself from the live-in relationship. If they were engaged they’d both be on the same page and it might make sense to move in.

            2. +1 million to all of this.

            3. ” She’ll give up her independence and move in with him and waste several years before she finally realizes they are never getting married and then goes through a huge emotional and logistical hassle to extricate herself from the live-in relationship. If they were engaged they’d both be on the same page and it might make sense to move in.”

               This is not, like, an absolutely assured outcome for OP just because you say it is. I am sorry if this happened to you, or one of your close friends. But dragging your emotional baggage into this conversation is not helpful or reasonable. Or a great look for you, TBH.

            4. ” OP and the boyfriend are not on the same page about timing, which means they are probably not really on the same page about the seriousness of the relationship. This is a red flag that he is hesitant to commit to OP and doesn’t really intend to marry her. ”

               This is quite a leap and not true in my anecdotal experience. My husband and I got very serious very quickly, and were basically informally engaged (picking baby names, making career decisions that factored in the other person) within a few months,but he had a longer timeline in mind for official engagement and marriage. Men often do because they don’t have the pressure of a biological clock for children. If they’ve been together for a while and he doesn’t know *if* he wants to marry her, yes that’s a red flag. But simply having a different timeline as to *when*? Nah. And that’s especially true when you met in your early 20s, as I did and OP did.

            5. I’m so tired of men being oblivious about the biological clock though!

            6. I there’s a big difference between a 25 year old and a 35 year old. If a man is still in no rush in his mid-30s, I agree something more may be going on. But I don’t think it’s terrible that an early-mid 20 something guy is not in a huge rush to get married. It’s objectively still quite young. I said my husband had a longer timeline than me (in our mid-20s), but when I pointed out some of the reasons I wanted to get married sooner (one of which was we would be moving for his job in a certain year, and I wanted to be married before the move, not just engaged) he came around. It doesn’t make someone a terrible person if they don’t think of this stuff themselves, as long as they’re willing to listen.

         3. There is an entire spectrum of when to move in together, from “we have been dating for two months and her lease is up” to marriage, with everything in between.

            What people are cautioning about is moving in before engagement and with vague plans for a future engagement.

            If you’re moving in together to do a test run before engagement or marriage, when would you move out if it failed? What do you consider as it not working? The concern is that engagement can always be in the vague future. If your attitude is that you’re moving out at the time your 12 month lease renews if there is no ring, go right ahead. Just have something in mind so you don’t watch it get dragged out forever and ever.

            1. “If you’re moving in together to do a test run before engagement or marriage, when would you move out if it failed? What do you consider as it not working? The concern is that engagement can always be in the vague future.”

               Not if the OP (or whoever) has a clear timeline in her own mind and is willing to set and hold a boundary, which, I assure you, is possible for women to do. The question about “when would you move out if it failed” is kinda ridiculous – she’d move out when it’s clear things are not going anywhere, or getting better, and the couple breaks up. I don’t know why you think that when people move in together, they either break up or stay together unhappily forever – marriage or no, no one can just decide to move out. I have known couples who moved in together and then broke up because something in the relationship wasn’t working. They stopped living together – single people can absolutely hire moving companies, just so you’re aware – and in most cases they started dating again and eventually married other people.

               This is honestly so fascinating to me, where you’re creating this false dichotomy where the choices are “move in together and get strung along and end up miserable” or “insist on getting married on your timeline so you can live happily ever after.” Those aren’t the choices available to the OP. She could move in with the guy and within 6 months he proposes, and they get married a year later and live happily ever after (that’s my story, BTW). She could move in with the guy, figure out it’s not going to work and move out. She could not move in with the guy, get married, then move in, and figure out it’s awful and have to move out AND get a divorce. These are human relationships involving humans. There are no guarantees of happiness at any stage, and there is no algorithm we can use to predict outcomes. There’s also no specific set of steps anyone can take to guarantee they get a good outcome.

            2. +1000 to Anon at 1:36

               This entire thread has been WILD to me. There is a whole spectrum of situations between get married now and move in randomly without talking about it bc the lease ran out. And it is blowing my mind to think that it’s just as hard to move out of an apartment after a year or two with someone you’re not married to (and presumably haven’t entangled financially with) as it is to get divorced.

            3. I am shocked with as many lawyers as we have here that people are on this tip about “don’t move in together, get married.” Because I am sure folks have seen some nasty divorces out there! I have, and I am not even a lawyer! It is so much harder to get a divorce than it is to just move out of a house or apartment. Maybe I am just not a “marriage at all costs” person, but as someone in a community property state – I really, really want to know someone very well before I legally and financially entangle my life with theirs. No way would I risk getting married to someone without living with them – if it doesn’t work out in the first year, there are still so many details to unpick in a marriage, vs. a cohabitation situation.

            4. A lot of people were commenting on the level of mutual commitment and cautioning about the timeline, not saying that people should get married just so they can get a place together.

               I wonder how much class background factors into all this? I think of moving in together without commitment as something poor people are forced into to make rent, or something people with a lot of resources can handle if they end up having to handle a move out immediately after splitting up

               Nobody wants to break up or get divorced, but it’s okay to want a pretty firm commitment before uprooting oneself. And maybe OP has that commitment, just on a different timeline than was hoped for. But the very, very common pattern where men kick the can down the road while a woman waits, especially when the plan is for the woman to have children at some point after the wedding, can be frustrating to witness as a pattern even if an individual instance seems okay.

      9. Just as a counterpoint, my husband and I lived together for about a decade before we finally got around to getting married. But we don’t want kids and were kind of indifferent to getting married. I’m team wouldn’t get married before we lived together.

   8. I had a similar situation with my now-husband. We’re the same age (met at just turned 24) and after about a year of dating he mentioned that he wanted to get engaged the summer he finished grad school (when we’d be 27), whereas I saw us getting engaged sooner, so we could get married that summer. We had some hard discussions but ended up getting married on my timeline. Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with pushing a bit to move up the timeline if you’re both sure you want to get married and just not on the same page about when.

      1. we did the same thing. i was ready sooner than he was, but i was in grad school and going to be recruiting for jobs and i didn’t want to take him into account in the recruiting process without a ring on my finger. we moved in together and got engaged like 3 months later. our engagement just ended up being longer than either of us would’ve liked due to logistical challenges.

3. Y’all, I have been so out of it lately. Tired and sleeping a lot, and I’m having trouble focusing on anything — notably reading which is my favorite hobby. I’m going to get as much fresh air as possible today and try to take it easy.

   How is every feeling this week?

   1. I feel like I have to ask: Did you have Covid (somewhat) recently? Any chance you’re dealing with long-Covid?

   2. The change from summer to fall always makes me feel like you’re describing. It’s low-key awful. Definitely get some fresh air, rest when you can, and maybe some light exercise like yoga or a long walk. And consider taking vitamin D; it makes a difference for me.

      1. vitamin D and a SAD light! seasonal depression is real.

         1. Yes, I was just talking to a friend last week about how low-energy we both were feeling, and I realized that I needed to get out the SAD light. It’s made a noticeable difference, though I’m still pretty draggy…

            1. A SAD lamp is so essential at this time of year when it stays dark until 7:30 in the morning. I actually do better once the time changes because it gets light earlier in the day, even though the evenings are darker.

   3. Any chance you’re dehydrated? When I’m not getting enough water I always feel exhausted.

   4. This happens to me every fall and winter and I increase the amount of vitamin D I take daily.

   5. I think the bulk of research into the subject shows that couples who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce. Could be lots of reasons for that . . . but I don’t agree with the many commenters who think living together first is important to confirm compatibility. The concerns that cause serious problems in marriage aren’t about whether someone is a good roommate. They’re about the quality of the relationship (communication, intimacy, etc.), and alignment of values and expectations with respect to major life issues. Pre-marital counseling is a good idea.

      1. This.

      2. I think the real key is don’t live together before having in a joint understanding and aligned expectations. That can include if there is a long term commitment and whether that means marriage to you or not and in what timeframe.
         Communication is crucial, but if there is good communication, then it’s irrelevant whether you lived together or not. We lived together for a decade with the understanding that we were in a marriage-like committed relationship but that actually officially being married could wait until we got around to it.
         I wear a ring now, I didn’t before. Day to day, thats the only difference. Sometimes I check a different box on a form.

      3. I think it’s been shown that a huge factor in that stat is that very devout religious couples are much less likely to live together before marriage, and also much less likely to divorce because the religion frowns upon it. So it’s not really causation.

         YMMV, but I would never have married someone I didn’t live with first, and in fact lived with several people I didn’t marry. Going on dates outside the home is wonderful and important but is so different living with someone, and there are so many things you don’t find out until you are sharing a physical space and finances. There is certainly much more to marriage than being good at sharing a household, but that’s an important part of it.

         1. +1, the only couple I know who didn’t live together before marriage are my extremely catholic and conservative BIL and SIL. They would die before getting divorced, even though my husband and I both think their relationship is somewhat toxic (SIL confided in me she finally feels like she “won” over my MIL when previously BIL would take MIL’s side on things…the same day BIL confided in my husband that he’s basically given up fighting with SIL and just goes with whatever she says to keep the peace bc it’s not worth it. Lol.) The first few months of their marriage also sounded quite rocky bc they were fighting about cleaning, dishes, etc.

         2. It’s anecdata, but the hetero women I know who didn’t live with husbands before marriage have been shocked to find themselves with men who don’t begin to pull their weight once kids are in the picture. My best friend is sadly in this category, and wants a divorce but will never get one for cultural reasons.

            Living with someone is the best way to get a sense of what it will be like to parent with them. Living with a romantic partner isn’t just “being roommates,” I think that’s a bit reductive. When you live together you become a family, even if you don’t have kids. Obviously kids present additional challenges that childless couples don’t have, but the best prep for having kids is living together without kids.

4. Okay, so this is a pretty niche question, but I’m looking for maybe people who have gone through this before, or maybe even a suggestion of whom to ask.

   Our house had a major flood. Insurance paid the cleanup crew directly, then sent an adjustor to assess damages and we got a check ($25k), less our deductible and depreciation. We hired out part of the repair, but also did some of the repair work ourselves to save on costs since we decided to upgrade. For example, the bathroom that flooded had builder grade tile. We installed marble, but DH did the labor. Our kitchen had old laminate flooring; insurance covered replacing with new laminate but we instead put in hardwood- again, DH did the labor. The insurance check covered repainting much of the interior of the house (line itemed at about $2500); we bought the paint and did it ourselves. You get the idea.

   We are able to claim depreciation now that all the repairs are complete. Our adjuster has asked for receipts for the work, which we can provide for the materials, and the labor we outsourced (eg.plaster work, electrical) but not for DH’s time.

   Would it be disingenuous to have DH issue an invoice that we then pay and have a receipt for his time and labor? It’s several hundred hours. I am trying to keep everything completely above board so please just assume good intentions if the answer here is no.

   I am also not quite sure who to ask or how to google. The adjuster assigned to us right after the flood said this is fine and done often, and he even made sure that DH’s time in cleaning up after the initial event was accounted for in our claim. He has left his agency though, so when I reached out about this part of the claim I was directed to the CEO (it’s a small shop). He told me that they basically just eyeball the receipts (they don’t even need to be line itemed), look at photos to confirm the repairs were done, and then tell the insurance to cut us a check for the final amount, so they just need receipts that add up to more than the first payment. He made it seem like no big deal at all but said “I just need receipts” when I asked about DH’s time.

   Thoughts on how to do this and/or where to look for the right answer? Getting the insurance to pay out the depreciation is several thousand dollars, so it’s worth us figuring this out.

   1. Call your agent and ask for guidance, but yes, I’d bill husband’s time.

      1. They know nothing, and directed me to the adjuster, whose answer I shared.

   2. I would bill his time, just at the lower end of what someone would charge for that work. If it is normally $50-$80 an hour and he spent about 300 hours, bill $15k for it, not $24k.

      1. So the thing is that they need the receipt, not a bill. That was the explicit request and I’m trying to determine how to create one to check the box- if it’s appropriate.

         1. Billing time is creating a receipt my dear. You’re overly complicating this.

            1. This.

         2. Try out a trial version of a business accounting software package like Quick Books and use it to create an itemized receipt.

5. Is anyone else mentally exhausted all the time? I have a stressful job that often requires long hours, am trying to spend enough quality time with my boyfriend of about 8 months because I really want that to work, I’m also trying to keep up with friends, and it feels like there’s always something breaking around my condo. Due to my job, I can’t take a legitimate break / vacation until the end of December.

   I have been trying to get in some time for myself (I went for a massage yesterday, went to sleep super early on Friday night), but it never feels like enough. I constantly feel like I’m barely making it through the day before collapsing at night (often in tears because I’m so tired) by the end of the day.

   1. Yes. I’m there right now. The difference is I know it’s a rough season and it’s temporary. When mental exhaustion becomes the norm, it’s a huge signal that something needs to change, and soon. Vacations are great, but I’ve learned that they don’t really fix burnout. They can help stave it off, but once you’re in burnout mode, vacation doesn’t cut it. Changes have to be made or you’ll just end up in the same spot.

      OP, I feel for you. It is the worst feeling. I would do whatever you can to minimize the number of decisions you need to make outside of work, even if temporarily.

   2. Can you throw money at things like cleaning or errands? Also, can you do relaxing date nights, like a couples massage or a quiet evening at home watching a movie with takeout? I would try to incorporate relaxing activities with your SO and friends. If you get your nails done, get a mani pedi with a friend.

   3. Ahhh yes. This is my life.

      Super busy job/3 young kids/spouse with a big job that involves lots of travel/elderly dog/house always needs something. I refer to it as ‘microdosing self-care’. So like, I will often do a sheet mask while going through emails or go to HomeGoods on a lunch break and just touch soft blankets and smell some candles. I bought a bunch of machine washable clothing items and created a capsule wardrobe – TBH, most of it is black and white with some dark green in there.

      Re: Dating – I suggest things like grocery store or laundry dates as a way to spend time together while still getting shit done. Also, don’t be afraid to ask BF if he can help let someone in to repair something if needed – you’ll really see what kind of a partner you have.

      But also: this sucks and I’m sorry. I’ve realized that there are hacks and hints, but when it comes down to it you pick your priorities. I forget who said this quote (I think it was a romance author maybe?) but somebody commented that it’s impossible to keep all the balls in the air – some of them will drop. The secret is that some of them are plastic and some are glass, so you make sure the plastic ones are the ones that drop. I think of that a lot.

6. Oh my gosh, what a gorgeous pick!

7. Ads for Forme, this sports bra that supposedly helps improve posture, are following me around social media. Has anyone tried these and do they actually do anything? Sitting at a computer all day is killing my posture.

   1. I don’t know about Forme in particular, but I have found that posture correcting type garments do help a lot (I have a sort of soft yoke brace type thing to pull my shoulders back; when I wear it, I sit up straight and pull my shoulders back, because it’s uncomfy if I don’t, but it’s perfectly comfortable to sit properly).

      I really believe corsets and other historical support wear got a bad rap. Our posture is certainly not better since everyone stopped wearing them!

   2. hasn’t helped me much

   3. Following. I so desperately want something like this to actually work.

   4. I bought it and maybe wore it 5 times. It does help in the moment, but to get it to work it has to be really tight and is near impossible to get on and off without contorting myself so I just don’t bother. It is wildly overpriced for what it is.

8. What do I wear? I’m DH’s date to a dinner where BigLaw partners at his firm are trying to woo him/roll out the red carpet. I thought it was just a dinner with his regular colleagues/partners but a few partners from other cities are flying in for this dinner, which has made it feel like A Bigger Deal.

   My usual style is feminine with some edge, I’m 5’5 and a size 8, rectangle with short waist/no torso. If it was just DH and I going to dinner, I’d wear a slip dress with a leather jacket.

   I also have this option but it also feels too casual: https://www.sezane.com/us/product/ilona-dress/navy-blue#size-2

   TIA!

   TIA!

   1. Where and when is the dinner? If it’s at a restaurant in a weekday, the partners will be coming from the office and likely wearing suits (or business casual). In the case, I’d err towards more business attire for you (sheath dress and jacket, dress pants / nice top).

      I really like the dress you linked, but at least at my big law firm, that would be too casual.

      1. +1 – that’s way too casual and too little wife. I’d wear a suit. Or pants and a blazer. Maybe heels and fun earrings to take it into evening.

      2. The Sezane example is way too ‘cute brunch date’ for the vibe here. I know you’re attending technically in a social role but I think you’ll feel best and like you fit in with the table in something more structured & businesslike.

      3. Thank you – this is super helpful. I can definitely do work pants + top – like a Banana Republic Hayden pants and a full-sleeved silk blouse.

         Dinner is on a weeknight at a French place that skews pretentious and is highly rated.

         1. This sounds appropriate. Good luck to your husband!

   2. So I wouldn’t wear a mini dress. Do you just have like a normal plain dress?

   3. I think a slip dress is too sexy-adjacent for a business dinner. When you take off the leather jacket, it’s too much skin. The linked dress is summery but, more importantly, looks really short. I could see something like that in a more seasonally-appropriate print and longer, though. I would not try dress like a lawyer coming from the office. Who wants to dress up as a lawyer???

      1. +1 to all of this. I personally would not wear business attire. But I also think the linked dress is way too short for this (I do like it though). I would look for a fall print maxi or midi dress with sleeves. Sezane might have other options that would work.

      2. I gave that as an example of what I’d wear if it was just DH and I – definitely agree it’s not appropriate for this crowd! I’m a lawyer too, and I DEFINITELY don’t want to dress like one ;)

         1. My husband and I are both lawyers and I actually lean into the I’m a lawyer too vibe for his events and vice versa, I’d rather project power couple.

            1. Agree. Why wouldn’t you want to dress like a lawyer-out-to-dinner?

            2. Agree with this also.

   4. I think you need to blend in with those at the table but not look like you’re trying to masquerade as them. I’d wear a dress with sleeves in a neutral color. The kind of dress you’d wear to work for a meeting but not an interview. I think wearing a suit or blazer will look weird, like you mistakenly think you’re being interviewed. But yes, the dress you’ve posted is too casual.

      1. Yes, this – a few suggestions that would be more on-point for the mood without looking like a fellow candidate: wide legged pants with a bright or patterned silk blouse. A DVF wrap dress. Something like this in structure – https://www.nordstrom.com/s/mock-neck-long-sleeve-dress/7356631?origin=category-personalizedsort&breadcrumb=Home%2FWomen%2FClothing%2FDresses&color=002

      2. Agreed. I think this is the time for a dark/neutral sweater or other long sleeved/elbow sleeved dress with tights and booties (adjust for your climate). Maybe with some edgier jewelry/accessories to show your personality/style. No blazer type jacket but I think you could rock the leather jacket as an actual outer layer!

         1. Ooh, I love the idea of a sweater dress with some kind of jacket, paired with boots/booties and some fun accessories. Serious but not too serious; fun without being too casual.

      3. It wouldn’t be a masquerade though since she is a lawyer.

   5. I’d go with a sheet dress with some interesting detail, thinking an asymmetrical neckline, draping etc.
      Or, if you’d like to go more edgy, silk blouse with some sort of wide-length pants in a dressy material?

      I think the goal should be to look like a seasoned spouse of the successful lawyer I assume your husband is, looking really polished, sophisticated and comfortable at this sort of fancy dinner. So, I’d factor jewelry and hair/makeup into the equation, as well.

   6. Reformation has some nice options that I think would work for events like this.
      https://www.thereformation.com/products/lysander-dress/1312546MDN.html?dwvar_1312546MDN_color=ELE&quantity=1
      https://www.thereformation.com/products/wadeline-dress/1313695BLK.html

   7. I wouldn’t wear the dress you linked to, or any print. I’d wear a solid color dress with sleeves.

   8. I would do AG’s leather-like finished pants (I promise they are no warmer than jeans) + nice sweater – think wool or cashmere with some interest or nice silk shirt + classic designer bag. They are wooing him and are the ones selling their wares so to speak.

   9. What city are you in? In my city (Bay Area) I would have worn something Iike the link but a bit longer. But we skew casual, especially during the week when we’re coming from the office – jeans and a blazer would not be unusual.

   10. I’d personally wear more of a work look. I’d probably go for a beautiful cashmere sweater and trousers with some nice jewelry + your leather jacket.

       1. Ooh – I like the way that outfit sounds. Very luxe.

   11. Knee length Silk dress or pants and silk blouse.
       Wear good jewellery if possible.

9. I’ve weaned off of an SSRI (Zoloft) and I feel like I’m losing my mind. I tried to do it slowly–from 75 to 50 to 25 over about 2 months. I think I skipped the step where I was supposed to take the 25 every other day, then every 3 days, etc. So maybe that’s why, but gee, I am struggling. I’m getting brain zaps, which feels like my head is pulsing and feel like I’m on an emotional rollercoaster. Of course, I’m also dealing with a very stressful situation at work, on top of all the regular life stuff that is stressful (two young kids who are a handful). I know I need therapy, but I’ve been unsuccessful in finding a therapist who takes my insurance and is accepting new patients. I’ll keep trying, but in the meantime, has anyone else been through this and have recommendations? I’m taking Benadryl daily and that does help with the brain zaps, but how long is this going to last? I’ve been taking them for two weeks now and its only slightly better. I feel like crying (and am) every day.

   1. Go even more slowly. It is very hard to wean off of SSRI’s. Crush some up and divvy them into little piles on a hard surface. Tap a pile with a damp finger and have a mini dose that way. There are forums about this, but really, go even more slowly. It is a lot for your brain chemistry to adjust to.

   2. That is way too fast to wean off of Zoloft. Did you doctor prescribe this weaning regimen? If not, go and ask for their preferred wean timeline. You are indeed supposed to do the every other day, then twice a week, etc. once you get down to 25 (once you have been at 25 for awhile, mind you). The whole weaning process to get off the 25s was probably 6 weeks for me and while I didn’t have any brain zaps, I certainly had days/moments where I felt weird and knew it was from weaning. But even the drop from 75 to 25 was rather sudden. Is there a particular reason you need to be off of it by a certain time? If not, then go back on the 25 daily and do a proper wean (again, talk to your doctor/prescriber). Frankly it sounds like you need the meds with all of what’s going on in your life, especially if you’re unable to get into therapy right now.

   3. I didn’t get the brain zaps, but I was crying every day. I felt dramatically, overwhelmingly worse after quitting Zoloft than I ever felt before starting it (it was prescribed for public speaking anxiety, so I never really experienced depression-like symptoms until after quitting!). My psychiatrist referred me to a doctor who helps with SSRI discontinuation. Since I was already 100% off the SSRI, I was able to take 5HTP to improve symptoms (since 5HTP raises serotonin and Zoloft traps it, it’s not safe to take them together). (I was told that the reason for my discontinuation symptoms were the extra serotonin receptors the body made while I was on the SSRI, so that is why it’s treated by raising serotonin levels, if I understood the explanation correctly.)

      1. I’ve been 110% off Zoloft for about two weeks now and I’m reluctant to go back to taking it, even in small doses because of what I’m experiencing now. Frankly I don’t want to ever go on SSRIs again, if this is what its like to wean off! Its way worse than how I felt before I started taking it. I’ve never heard of 5HTP. Is that something your doctor prescribed? How long did you take it for and did it have any other side effects? I have a doctors appt a week from today so I can ask my doctor (just my general practitioner) about it then. Thank you!

         1. 5HTP is a serotonin (and melatonin) precursor. It crosses the blood brain barrier and is therefore a little stronger than tryptophan, but it’s basically a step between the amino acid tryptophan and the neurotransmitter serotonin. (Tryptophan was used a lot in psychiatry in the past though less so recently.) I remember that that if using it long term (more than several months), my doctor recommended also supplementing tyrosine in a particular as not to inadvertently end up with lower dopamine (though I do have ADHD so maybe that is why he said that). I didn’t notice side effects though since it can convert into melatonin, I did take it at night and not in the morning.

            So this was basically a variety of amino acid precursor therapy! I think it is sometimes a little controversial in medicine because it’s treating SSRI discontinuation as if it’s a kind of withdrawal. I certainly did not crave my Zoloft (far from it!!), but the severity of the symptoms I experienced was shocking to me and it doesn’t seem like too much to approach it like withdrawal to me.

         2. You can buy 5HTP over the counter, fyi. There may be a prescribed version, don’t know about that.

            1. Thanks, yes. It’s just OTC. I’m not aware of a prescription version.

   4. Possibly dumb question – can you postpone weaning off until your stressful work situation resolves?

   5. Celexa withdrawal was the hardest thing I’ve ever gone though, but it was only really bad for 2-3 weeks. I agree that you should have gone slower, but for me at least, even though I was taking half a pill every other day before stopping, I still had really really really awful withdrawal symptoms, with brain zaps and awful nausea and vomiting multiple times a day. So I would maybe just power through if you’re already several days or a week into it. Obviously follow your doctor’s advice. I personally found wellbutrin to be much more effective for me overall.

   6. Thanks for everyone’s replies so far. Its been about two weeks since I took my last dose of 25mg. Would it be counterproductive to start taking 25 mg again at this point? I have a dr appt but its not for another week so I can ask her then.

      1. You really need to talk to your doctor about this rather than random people on the internet. Send a message through your patient portal or call and ask for advice.

         1. I see your point, but sometimes talking to people on the internet is a way to find a better doctor if the one we’re seeing is just not coming through for us.

            1. Yeah, this seems to be deliberately ignorant of what it’s like to see a doctor these days. In my experience, they almost always deny or downplay drug side effects or withdrawal issues. This is the type of thing where internet advice is often better than what you get from your doctor, though obviously you need to have a good filter for what’s good advice and what’s dangerous. OP, if I were you, I’d try what Trixie says, not go all the way up to 25, but really taper slowly with partial doses if you don’t think you can handle it. Or try Wellbutrin, I’ve stopped that a couple times with absolutely no issues.

      2. why not take 12.5 every day? then 12.5 every other day?

         1. Thanks for all of your comments! I think I might consider that, maybe message my doctor first though. Sincerely appreciate your help.

   7. I took Zoloft on and off for about 10 years, more on than off. Then it stopped working. I tried a half dozen other antidepressants, and nothing worked. I’ve been off of them for about 5 months now. My insurance changed and I likewise couldn’t get access to a provider for months. I feel…surprisingly ok and no more depressed than I did while testing all the different options. I think my anxiety is actually reduced, too. I’m in therapy and plan to stick with this instead of mediation.

10. PSA – if you bought something on Prime Day earlier this month, the return policy is just the standard 30 day return policy on Am*zon. Last year they included Prime Day purchases in the holiday return policy so you had into January. I bought a couple of things intending for them to be holiday gifts but I’m going to return them now – don’t want to be stuck with them in case they don’t work out.

11. I made my last student loan payment over the weekend.

    I’m glad that albatross is finally gone from my life! I feel such a sense of relief and accomplishment.

    (I don’t have anyone IRL to share that with, but I just wanted to put it out there somewhere. Thank you for listening!)

    1. Congrats!! I bought myself an ice cream cake when I paid mine off. It’s worth celebrating with cake.

    2. Congratulations!! It’s such a great day

    3. Woooo! Huge accomplishment. When I paid mine off a treated myself to a fun purchase that cost the same as my monthly payments to celebrate.

    4. This is big! You invested in yourself, and now you can fully appreciate the benefit of your investment.

    5. Congrats!!! This is a super exciting milestone and you deserve to be proud.

    6. Congratulations! That’s a huge financial milestone.

    7. yay!!

    8. So nice Pep! Congratulations! I finished off my payments this August, and it felt like a noose had been released from my neck. I hope you do something sweet to celebrate!

    9. Congratulations!!! This is the best feeling and so worth a celebration!

    10. Hooray! Heartiest congratulations!!

12. As it gets colder, I’m looking for print / patterned dresses that have a tiny bit of black in them or would otherwise go with black tights and black boots or shoes. I am already missing all the fun colors and not looking like an urban goth.

    1. What’s your budget?
       Old Navy has a couple dark floral dresses: https://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=753030022&cid=15292&pcid=15292&vid=1&nav=meganav%3AWomen%3AShop+Women%27s+Categories%3ADresses+%26+Jumpsuits&cpos=134&cexp=2926&kcid=CategoryIDs%3D15292&ctype=Listing&cpid=res23103007673128010087240#pdp-page-content
       And here’s one from Macy’s: https://www.macys.com/shop/product/rachel-rachel-roy-womens-harland-floral-print-a-line-dress?ID=14891886

       1. Thanks! I haven’t work shopped since COVID so even up to Me+‘Em levels for a workhorse that is good in a business casual office. I do have client events, so would go big for that but more like Banana or Amour Vert for regular days.

    2. This is what I like re rufflepuff and longer dresses: you can move off of the black oage with camel or other colors of footwear and no one needs to care about the color of your tights.

    3. Not a dress suggestion, but another suggestion. For awhile, I was wearing only dresses which I could wear with black tights and shoes just for ease. So most of the dresses had a black palette. I bought a tiffany blue wool coat from jcrew and wore it every day with those black outfits and it 1) made me happy and 2) I got a lot of compliments. So I’d consider a coat in a fun color.

       1. Do you have a link? Sounds lovely!

          1. No it is from a few years ago, but they always have nice coats in fun colors.

13. Question – if you travel to a conference or similar with a few other reasonably close co-workers, how much time do you spend with them? For example, do you sit with them during presentations, or on your own?

    My job rarely has travel, and there’s not a huge value to networking. My boss, one peer, and I are all going to a 2 day CLE forum. We’re pretty sociable – get drinks together regularly after work, stuff like that, and we have a least one dinner planned while we’re there. But I never know if I should sit by myself and give us both a break or sit with them during the presentations and such. FWIW, I’m the quiet sort and could easily just never talk to anyone (and I know from past experience I won’t have much luck meeting new folks there), but if I’m with others, I get pretty self-conscious about being around too much and possibly not having anything to talk about. The two colleagues are male, if that makes a difference. (I know I’m over-thinking this.)

    1. We rarely get to do this bc corporate policy that only one member of a team gets to go to any sort of thing. But when it does happen, we plan it out ahead… I’ll go to this session if you go to that one, i really want to hear this speaker, then let’s meet up at the happy hour… etc. i feel like part of the benefit of these things is meeting new people so it’s good for me to be away from my posse, even if that is more comfortable!

    2. It sounds like this is a conference that is primarily about learning new information rather than primarily networking. That’s similar to conferences in my field, and I usually sit with my coworkers if we are in the same sessions.

       1. This. I sit with them if we are in the same ‘learning’ sessions and I also independently network (so do they) when the opportunity is presented (cocktail hour or special customer or partner meetings, for example).

       2. Same for a learning conference vs networking. We might text ahead of time and try to meet and walk in together, but also if we sit alone because getting ready takes someone longer, has a work call or whatever the reason, it’s also totally fine to sit solo.

    3. If I’m at a presentation with people I know, I’ll sit with them. We don’t always go to the same stuff, but when we do, it’s nice to sit next to someone you know.

       1. +1

    4. My colleagues and I generally sit together, unless we end up talking with others before or after a presentation or when switching rooms; then we sit by whoever we were chatting with. I actually think more often than not we end up not right by each other, but we’re pretty social and our roles involve networking even at events that aren’t networking focused. Thinking back on it, we basically kind of gravitate toward each other but it’s not a hard rule that we do sit by each other.

    5. Depends on everyone’s roles, how well we know each other, and the make-up of the audience. I try to deliberately not sit or stand near folks I know for breakfasts, lunches, or “think tank” roundtables and the like since networking is important. It’s hard for me to do because I’m an introvert, but I just grit my teeth and force myself to approach someone new. I’m an SME. Unless one of our sales people pulls me into their convo, I usually try to give them space. Sometimes they don’t want to have multiple folks surround a prospect and other times they do. I try to pay a lot of attention to the vibe they are giving me. If it’s just listening to a lecturer, I’m good with sitting with others from my team. If the make-up of the audience isn’t likely to be people we do biz with, then I’m a lot more open to just chatting with folks I know. Usually folks kind of follow their own time and interests except for dinners. We’re pretty likely to meet up as a group. If some of my team are sitting together and I’m trying to meet new people, I’ll usually say something like “I’d love to join you. But I always feel guilty if I don’t try to meet a couple of new people at these things. I kind of force myself since I’m such an introvert” and then I walk off–I don’t want to appear rude to my team (or like I’m trying to network to some weird fake level).

    6. I’ve always done my best to politely avoid colleagues at conference presentations. I’m an introvert, the networking stuff is enough, I don’t want to also have to make small talk during a presentation!! But I stopped getting invited to conferences, so maybe don’t do what I did. Lol.

14. Random recommendation – I picked up these shoes looking for something to wear on a cruise when I want to wear a date-night dress but am also likely to walk a lot and maybe dance: https://www.dsw.com/en/us/product/hush-puppies-sofie-cross-pump/542751?activeColor=001

    They feel great, and I think they’re pretty cute for a minimal heel (I’m usually a tall-heel wearer). I think they’d go nicely with slacks or a skirt/tights look for work, too.

    1. I love Hush Puppies – I had a super cute pair of block-heel sandals that I wore into the ground.

15. Would love to hear about any restaurants in Paris where you’ve specifically had a great time dining solo!

    1. Un Jour A Peyrassol in the 1st, La Marine in the 11th, Maria by Cesar in the 2nd, Cafe Foufou in the 4th, 21G Dumplings in the 11th, Au Comptoir in the 10th

       1. Thank you!

    2. Le Sergent Recruteur on the Ile de Sant Louis. One Michelin star, had their excellent chef’s tasting menu for lunch. They sat me in the most perfect booth as a 1 top–it’s like a little velvet alcove. I was treated like a damn goddess.

       1. Amazing just booked this. And I was hoping for something on Ile St Louis!

    3. Along the same lines, any recs for restaurants in Paris for a family with two (younger) teens?

       1. Mokus L’Ecreuil – Pizza with a great view of the Eiffel Tower
          La Felicita – Market-style restaurant with food kiosks and scattered seating
          Brasserie Martin – they’re known for their rotisserie meats, so chicken, pork ribs, etc.
          Mamie Burger – good burger & fries
          Maria by Cesar (also noted above) – Great pasta & standard Italian
          Les Fondues de la Raclette – If they’d enjoy fondue

          1. Yum, raclette! Reminds me of alpine ski huts.

16. Any tips for a final interview with a more senior person? I think this is just a “get to know you” type of meeting and blessing from the boss.

    1. At my company, at this stage the senior people would really like to see someone who is interested and excited about the company and the company’s future and your future+company future. They assume you’ve been vetted for the position and are qualified and can do the role; now they want to see how you will fit into the big picture of the company.

    2. Yeah, at my company its very much a final blessing type thing, so unless you do something egregious it’s hard to not get the role.

    3. I’m the last stop senior person and the mistake I see people make is thinking they have it in the bag. I won’t ding someone in all likelihood at that phase, but I’d like to hire you with a good impression in mind. To that end, be prepared to restate the things you’ve said all along – how your skills are valuable for the role, what you bring to the table, why you want to work here, etc. I haven’t been along for the ride to hear these things already and at best, I’ve only heard someone else’s recap. Make your pitch as if it were your first interview and not your last. And send a thank you note.

    4. It’s a real interview. Early in my career I had a last “formality” interview with a senior guy who ended up just not liking me (his name was Dick, which is not even ironic, just true) and I didn’t get the job even though the entire team had already told me I would receive an offer.

       I’ve now been in that senior position interviewing candidates, and my interview is not just window dressing – it’s a real interview.

       So my advice is to treat it like a real interview. Prepare as you did for the others.

    5. I recently had 7 interviews…including traveling to an interview with the CEO…and didn’t get the job. Apparently they flew in 2 candidates. Don’t treat it like a done deal.

    6. Great advice all! Thank you!

17. Insomnia question – does anyone else get terrible insomnia right before their period? It used to be the 2-3 days before but now it’s practically the entire week before my period. The lack of sleep also makes me more likely to get migraines so it’s just a vicious cycle. I’ll bring it up to my doctor but I’m wondering if taking melatonin that whole week is the best option? I don’t love drugging myself to get to sleep but if I don’t think I’m inevitably taking my migraine meds (plus a soda) at least 2-3 days that week to combat the headaches.

    1. I would start with the melatonin, and if that doesn’t work bring it up to your doctor. I have intermittent insomnia (maybe 4-5 nights a month (where I hardly sleep at all all night long), plus several nights (10+) of having trouble falling asleep and getting way less sleep than I need) and use melatonin.

       Doctors are likely to suggest melatonin (or magnesium) at first, and if it doesn’t help then suggest stronger medication. Personally, I have no problem with melatonin or magnesium regularly but am not interested in prescription strength sleep medicine (if my insomnia is really bad I will occasionally take a benedryl). I don’t even consider melatonin or magnesium “drugging myself”, but I draw a hard line at stronger sleep meds.

    2. This started happening in my late 30s. It is awful. I would not hesitate to use melatonin or something else for a few days a month so you can sleep and avoid all the other side effects of NOT sleeping.

    3. Yep, it’s a thing and has gotten worse for me with age and perimenopause (I’m 38). I would definitely take melatonin and talk to your doctor if melatonin is not working.

    4. I always recommend the book The Period Repair Manual for questions like this; for me it helped me raise the right questions with my doctor to figure out what was going on w/my premenstrual symptoms. The right (very low) dose of melatonin I think is not so much drugging oneself as making up for the lowered melatonin levels that time of month!

       1. Right – if hormone levels in your body naturally drop at certain points in your cycle, and they do, replacing those hormones is actually pretty natural.

          And period stuff aside, melatonin is not a traditional sleep aid and has never given me the hungover, dr*gged feeling that other sleep aids (including anti-histamines like Benadryl) do. I know not everyone has this experience, but for me it doesn’t feel any different than a vitamin.

18. I know the problem here is me and my attitude and I want to improve. I also know this happens when I feel like I need to address a lot of things all at the same time.

    I have a tendency to be judgy and impatient with others who I work with. For example, on a shared effort, it seems to me that they’re not working hard or attending to details or whatever it is. I get impatient and judgy, and unfortunately let that show in my demeanor and tone.

    Has anyone else fixed this in themselves? What can I tell myself in the situation to improve? Maybe “Coworker doing the best they can.” (But the problem is, deep down I don’t believe that.)

    Thanks for any help, wise hive.

    1. Ugh, following. I need help on this too. The problem is that a lot of the time, the coworker’s best is truly nowhere near good enough. I struggle with being patient for things like “the formatting is obviously completely wrong” or “there are seven typos on page 1.” I get really impatient if they make more work for me for things that seem totally obvious.

       1. I get this. I also have come to believe that humans are gonna human, and not everybody is capable of noticing the details.

    2. I don’t wish this upon you, but the fastest way to become less judgmental is to go tough times yourself. Once you’ve had something awful happen to you and you still have to keep showing up at work every day with a smile on your face while struggling to deal with whatever issues you can’t talk about, you get a lot less judgy fast. If you’re lucky enough that this hasn’t happened to you yet, use your imagination. Sometimes people are just lazy, selfish jerks. But most people are dealing with a lot of things you’ll never know about.

       1. I’m the first response (not OP) and unfortunately I found the opposite to be true for me. I went through a bad year – miscarriage, caregiving for a relative with dementia who declined rapidly, a close family member had a psychotic break, and a few health scares. That all made me more impatient because in my head I said “if I could get things done for you when I was going through that, how come you can’t do basic things for me in return?” It’s rough. And complicated.

          1. Then I’d still just think of yourself as lucky for being unusually good at coping. Not everyone is capable of doing that, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t have other strengths or aren’t still a good employee overall. Obviously that’s not a reason to give everyone a pass all the time, but people are just different and they learn and change over time as life throws things at them. If they’re your employee, it’s your job to help them manage getting their job done, and if they’re not, then it’s your job to be part of the team and deal with it, whatever that means in your workplace.

          2. I’m glad I don’t know you in real life.

             1. I’m sure she feels the same about you.

                Anon at 12:04, I often have those same thoughts after being through test after test. Many of us do.

    3. Maybe it helps to focus less on them and more on the kind of coworker or manager you want to be? Everyone has struggles, bad days and times when they simply can’t do their best. Careers are long and people remember a person with an impatient judgment demeanor less fondly than a person who overlooked details.

       1. This. Ask yourself “do I want to be the impatient, judgey, b*tchy person who makes everybody feel awful?”

    4. I’m this way and I really wish I wasn’t. The best I can do is try to be really empathetic toward my kids. For colleagues, particularly ones who…maybe aren’t giving 100%, I tell myself “I will do x to contribute, and nothing more. If problems arise, I will neither place blame, nor accept blame.” This usually works.

    5. The point of mantras, sometimes, is that you repeat something you don’t believe until you do believe it. So it’s oaky that deep down you don’t believe it – the mantra is talking back to that place in you that doesn’t and trying to remind you to see a different way. A few more mantras –
       “I am not coworkers boss”
       “I do not know what coworker’s boss’s priorities are for them”
       “Coworkers has more things going on than I know”
       “I am not aware of everything coworker has on their plate”

       I would be curious if others have other strategies – DH tends to struggle with this.

       1. “Coworker has strengths in other areas.”
          “Coworker is not always great with details, but he’s good at X, Y, and Z.”
          “Part of being a teammate is pitching in and using my strengths to help others out.”

       2. “It takes all kinds.”

    6. I think this is where you can work on splitting your inside voice with the way you approach things.

       Inside voice might be “they don’t care and they are phoning it in and they don’t belong in this role if they can’t do this job.”

       How to approach: just state what needs to be done, when, document, CYA. “Colleen, please correct the typos in this doc and return it back to me by 2 pm tomorrow.” Leave any judgement out of it; simply factually state what needs to be done.

    7. OP here:
       Thank you for these — they’re helpful, particularly the note about how people will remember how you made them feel. Having just been on the receiving end of a coworker’s obvious impatience (hello, karma!) I feel this, now. :)

    8. “I can either work with the inferior or work on my own. If I cannot show grace to those beneath me, there will be no choice to make.” Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

    9. The other thing I try to use a lot is to separate facts from the story you are telling about the facts. So it might be a fact that there are typos in the document. But it is the story that you are telling that the typos are a result of your coworker not caring, or not working hard, or being lazy, whatever. Once you’ve identified the facts as separate, it can be easier to see how there is more than one story that fits those facts.

    10. Well it helps if the person is reasonably competent. I can deal with mostly competent but makes occasional mistakes, or tries real hard but makes mistakes, but total incompetence deserves a different response imho. For example. My assistant is generally good but of course everyone makes mistakes sometimes. I started keeping a list of her accomplishments because it makes my life easier around review time; I’ll read through the list when I’m frustrated with her and it reminds me how lucky I am to work with her.

        I had an associate for a few years who had zero common sense. He was energetic, had a great attitude, and great work ethic, but he just did. not. get it. Even giving him constructive feedback felt a bit like kicking a puppy because he would get so down on himself. It helped to remember that he has a lot of strengths and he really was trying to learn. Also my husband got a kick out of my stories about this poor kid so at least it was decent dinner conversation.

        I have a more senior male associate now who is terrible at his job and also has a bad work ethic. My goal is to maintain a professional demeanor at all times because that is the type of person (and boss) I want to be. “You are expected to be available during normal business hours” vs “I can’t believe you thought it was ok to leave the office at noon to go surfing for the rest of the day without telling anyone when you knew we had a 5 pm deadline that you were supposed to be working on, wtf is wrong with you.”

    11. “I get impatient and judgy, and unfortunately let that show in my demeanor and tone.” I think the first step here is for you to take full responsibility for your behavior. Your coworkers may be lame, but your behavior is 100% within your control. Having an impatient, judgy attitude toward your coworkers only reflects poorly on your self control

19. luggage help. need a new suitcase to check. can someone give a specific rec? ideally under $300, but max $400

    1. Go to Costco and get whatever one they have in the size you’re after. Good quality for the money.

    2. The TravelPro Maxlite 5 suitcases have been serving me VERY well for the price point, under $200.

    3. I just got Monos hard-sided bags and have been really happy with them. Also the coordinating packing cubes are amazing.

    4. I love my Bric’s Amalfi suitcase, the 27″ is on sale on their site now for $402, but I got mine a few years ago at TJ Maxx for maybe $275, so definitely shop around. We are checked-bag people and it’s been around the world and more and is holding up beautifully, it’s well balanced and has a very smooth roll.

    5. I’m a big fan of the Travelpro FlightCrew line. They offer a 24″ checked bag size expandable rolling suitcase. Price is generally a hair over $200. Available only at online shops that market to flight crews and pilots. They are somewhat more robustly-built than the Travelpro bags marketed to the general public, stronger zippers, stronger frame, bigger underplate, etc. Here is a link: https://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/11042?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIw7jj7OGeggMVKVN_AB0v1Qk_EAQYAyABEgK1h_D_BwE

20. A mob in Dagestan, Russia just stormed an airport in search of Jewish passengers arriving from Israel; there were 20 injuries and two were critical. This was this weekend, 2023. I’m sick of people pretending this isn’t happening or making excuses or engaging in “what-about-ism.” I’m sick of it.

    1. Cannot agree more.

       1. +1

    2. Who denied horrific things happen in Russia? Seems to me we read about it every day. However, I feel zero personal responsibility for what someone in Russia did.

       1. Omg, no one said you are personally responsible. They said it is a scary time *for them.* This is such a bizarre and out of touch response.

       2. The OP didn’t make this comment *at* you.

    3. I’m almost 40 and have never experienced antisemitism like this before. Feels like the walls are closing in, and to anyone who isn’t Jewish and is saying you’re just paranoid-please keep your comments to yourself. Feels like keeping passports ready time and for folks who wouldn’t have fathomed owning firearms, they’re starting to consider it. Feels like we will not be seen as separate from whatever actions the Israeli government takes, and that is frightening for Jews in the diaspora because of the level of anger and rage towards Israel.

    4. +1. Waiting for someone to comment that people need to “get offline and touch grass” for being “paranoid.” It is objectively more dangerous today to be Jewish or Muslim/Arab than it was a few weeks ago.

    5. This was a pogrom, targeting Jews, to kill them. Horrifying.

21. Any recent finds for winter holiday outfits? I love this jumpsuit from BR Factory-so flattering.

    https://bananarepublicfactory.gapfactory.com/browse/product.do?pid=819238011&vid=1&tid=bfpl000029&kwid=1&ap=7&gad=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_AT8uZFvnaVQV6SYzQRZCbWk5mH&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqP2pBhDMARIsAJQ0CzowwzR91ZeKdBSXarMecXUesreO-vAZXSHuxrq21R4ZUiDnNwOBZ7UaArINEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

22. My teenage son wants a leather jacket (like a traditional bomber type). i recommended the quince ones which look decent but he vetoed. Schott (which was the brand people had when I was in HS) is now in the 800-1500 range which is way more than i was inclined to spend. Any suggestions? thinking in the 200-500 range. He never wears a jacket so i’m not convinced this is going to get a lot of use but if this is what he wants for xmas ok w me.

    1. Does he want one that’s real leather? I personally find that there are more styles I like that are pleather; some pleathers are really nice now.

       1. the genesis of this was when found an old leather jacket cleaning out the house of my uncle. That jacket is really not usable but that’s where it came from. I don’t know if he’d care if it was pleather… interesting idea.

          1. Is reconditioning said old leather jacket an option? Could a cobbler take a look at and tell you what it would cost to put back together?

    2. What does he want? Can he put some legwork into this?

       1. Lol, yes. This is how it begins.

    3. Madewell men’s has a black leather bomber jacket that is in the $500 range. They usually have black Friday/Cyber Monday sales at 30% off if he can wait a few weeks.

    4. I recommend checking out Wilsons Leather website (yes that old mall store).

       1. Oh man, I remember walking by Wilsons – it smelled so good!

    5. Check out poshmark or eBay

       1. good idea

       2. This right here. It doesn’t make sense to put serious money toward a jacket that isn’t easily altered for someone who isn’t finished growing (if not up, then out).

    6. Maybe not something you’ll want ro do, but whenever my kids wanted anything big ticket like that we scoured second hand stores until we found the perfect one. The search time allowed them to refine what exactly they were looking for and sometimes change their mind about wanting it all. All of my leather was bought second hand, and I regularly see some nice ones in the men’s section.

    7. Let him do the shopping, since the details kids will look for aren’t going to be on your radar. Tell him he has a 300$ budget and go to a mall to pick out. Or send him to the internets with the same budget and let him do the lifting.

    8. what about portland leather trucker jacket or thursday boot co has a racer. In general I have liked leather quality of all saints jackets.

23. I’m dreading this but here goes. My mom owns a small business, a franchise. My cousin’s wife works for her and they’re extremely close. Apparently my mom is feeling short staffed and reconsidering her own role, looking into hiring another manager.

    For a variety of reasons, I suspect she’ll ask me to come work for her and eventually take over ownership either with or without my cousin’s wife. This business is pretty lucrative; my mom makes about double my attorney’s salary and works extremely part time. Plus, my company is continuing downsizing and while my wfh gig is just too easy to quit there is no real future in it.

    I’m under no delusions that working for my mom won’t be challenging. I’d have to negotiate an agreement to take ownership at a specific time again either with or without my cousins wife.
    The business is located five minutes from my home and very public facing. I understand it
    could also be sold for a significant amount of money. Of course I’ll wait until I’m asked but I know my mom and she has suggested this in jest twice which based on experience means she’s going to suggest it for real soon. I have no desire to run this business but I’m happy to halve my working hours and increase my pay. I have no desire to be a wfh lawyer either. I suspect refusing this will be seen as asking to be disinherited from a significant family asset so declining feels like a dumb financial move. My husband makes a good salary and thinks working less and making more is a no brainer but hes not the one who would have to work for his mom. Would you do it?

    1. I’d take over the business no question.

    2. I hardly see a downside here: less work for more money and the option to sell all while your current job has no future?
       Obviously, working with family can be fraught but none of us know the relationship dynamics here. Do you have another relative or friend who knows your family that you could run this by?

    3. Unless I really couldn’t get along with my mom, yes.

       I would be worried about the cousin’s wife though. I could foresee there being some hurt feelings there that your mom is passing her over for you when she has “earned it” through working for her and proving her value to the business.

       1. +1. I’d only do this with a really clear plan in mind that everyone is on board with.

    4. If I were in your shoes, this would be a no brainer for me too – I would 100% do it. But I have a great relationship with my mom, so I wouldn’t worry about working with or for her for a while. YMMV if you are really concerned about that aspect of it.

    5. I guess you don’t reasonably feel that you could structure your hours such that you’d limit your interaction with your mom until she retires full-time? Does she want to retire full-time or will she be there in some capacity until she passes, so that you’ll never have peace?

    6. I have an overall good relationship with my mom but could see how working with her on a daily basis could be draining. It still feels like a no-brainer to me, as long as the two of you are able to communicate and set any needed boundaries.

    7. I would want to have a better understanding of the franchise agreement and risks to the business before considering taking this on.

    8. Well I think the biggest problem is that you have no desire to run this business. Is that really, absolutely true? Like you’re not interested or curious at all?

       I have specific experience with this – I work for a family business that I helped build and will take over from my in-laws with my DH. We both very much care and are invested in the business. We have an agreement that we own a percentage of the company, and eventually we will probably sell. You’re right that you need this agreement, in writing, so everyone is on the same page. But if I was your mom, I’d be pretty hesitant to give it to someone who doesn’t want to run it. I just can’t see how someone who is running it and not being interested at all in that part isn’t going to affect the business.

       1. and FWIW re the family dynamics; DH and I love working together, and I like working with my in-laws. We all have a great relationship and are very open with each other and respect each other; however this relationship was LONG fought for and has involved a tremendous amount of negotiation over the years. We’re all in a good place now, but it took a long time to get here. If DH and I hadn’t helped build the business from the early days, I doubt we would have stuck it out.

    9. I would do it and talk to an attorney about drawing up a formal agreement. Less work for more money – no brainer.

    10. Hmm. Seems to me there are a few scenarios here and I’m not clear on what is on the table. In my view (could be wrong) there’s a difference between co-owning with your mom, taking over ownership from your mom and running solo, taking over ownership and sharing ownership with cousin’s wife, and working for your mom. Does your cousin’s wife have any ownership stake? Does she want one? Is she just an employee?

        Here’s what I would think about, in no particular order, assuming the ownership model worked for me: business hours and my working/on call hours (nights? Weekends? If someone doesn’t show to open the store do I have to go in?); what I like about being a lawyer and whether I will get to continue to exercise those same skills; what skills I need to be successful at owning this franchise and whether I have them or want to build them; whether I like managing people or not; whether I could maintain my bar license and perhaps do pro bono work in case I want to practice again.

        When you say your mom works very part time, why is that? Will you be able to do that right away or will it take some time? Does she have personal relationships with customers that you will have to take over and manage? There’s a lot of variables here.

        In the end I would do it, but have both a formal agreement up front and an informal exit plan or set of criteria that would tell me to get out id a b and c occur (to take as much emotion out of it as possible).

    11. I would take over the business. But only after we agreed on a timeline for my mom stepping back and her retirement date.

    12. I love my mom but the thought of working for her (and doing a job I don’t care about, no less) would make me want to staple things to her head. Even for a lot of money.

24. Running question! I LOVE trail running but barely tolerate street running. I have to drive 30-45 mins to get to a trail, so that’s mostly a weekend only activity for me (especially now that it gets dark early). I’d love to increase the distance I can run on trails, so I need to incorporate a few days of street running a week.

    How do I learn to tolerate street running? I love trail running because I’m truly in nature and I don’t get bored because there’s enough variation and enough hazards to focus on that I’m appropriately distracted. I always run (both on trails and on the road) with a friend or while listening to a podcast, but that’s still not enough distraction.

    I oddly can run for miles on a trail without breaks (even though it’s harder) but find myself stopping to walk fairly often while on a street.

    I live downtown in a large city, so there aren’t parks or anything trail near me to run on. It’s either city streets or a paved pedestrian trail.

    Also, my city is pretty flat. How do I train for the vert when I’m on flat city streets?

    1. Maybe finding a running group?

    2. Do you have access to a treadmill? DH is a marathon distance trail runner and uses a trend mill + videos of trail runs from his go pro to keep his distance up over the winter. He’ll pick a video that covers the distance he wants to hit. You can vary the elevation on the treadmill. you can also find running videos online.

       1. I do have a gym at work with a treadmill, but for me the treadmill is even worse than the streets!

    3. I don’t know. You just do it. If I didn’t run on the street, I’d never get to run, except on the weekends. And I think looking for a distraction might actually make things worse. Put on the music, and enjoy the run. Challenge yourself to make it to a landmark. Then another. And another.

       1. I would do the paved pedestrian trail. Just make it a part of your routine. Find a good podcast or a great playlist and do it. The more I run, the more I like it.

          1. I don’t mind the pedestrian trail as much (though it can get very crowded) but it’s about 1.5 miles away so getting there isn’t worth it on 3-4 mile days (which is the bulk of my mid week running). I also avoid it after dark for safety reasons (but I am fine running (with my lighted reflective vest) on streets after dark).

    4. I’m the same, and the only way I can tolerate street running when forced is to use it for speed work. Put on music and do intervals based on the songs, or timed intervals, or landmark ones. Sometimes I use the Apple fitness running workouts to keep me motivated.

    5. Change your route up to include back streets, alleys, cut throughs and any other sort of places that you can only get to on foot. When I lived somewhere like this, I thought of it as “urban cross country” and it became fun.

    6. A lot of becoming a really good runner is doing your training whether or not you want to. When I let go of the mental energy of running when I wanted to, where I wanted to, closeting up my routes, etc., I became a much better runner (and I was definitely a solid runner before).

       Tell yourself that the daily outdoor miles are necessary for those fun weekend runs. They are.

       1. I want to become a better runner and I know I have to suck it up and put in the miles, but I just really struggle with urban and treadmill running.

          1. Here’s the thing: it’s all mental and only you can reframe that.

             The only physical things that could be going on are that you might be running too fast (trail running forces you to slow down), or your body hasn’t adapted to the pounding. Take your easy runs easy so that you can complete them without walking, and ensure that your footwear is optimal for street running and not just trails.

             Otherwise, don’t focus on whether or not you’re having enough fun or if it’s scenic or if your podcast is entertaining. Focus on form, pace, HR, and distance. Know that >30 minutes stimulates mitochondrial and capillary adaptions. Keep your stride smooth, run loose, and keep good form.

          2. If you want it enough you’ll do it.

    7. Running downtown in a city can be really frustrating. There’s a lot of stop and go with intersections with lights. I’d try to drive ten minutes or so and get yourself to a more residential neighborhood within the city where you can snake around a neighborhood. Agree to podcast or music. Definitely think about a running group or get a friend to join.
       But I’d also just accept that some of the runs you do aren’t going to be amazing. Sometimes a training run is just a training run you have to gut out for 30-40 minutes. Also, as it gets darker I’d see about incorporating some treadmill runs. Use it for speedwork, put on a tv show, and bang out 30 minutes of intervals.

       1. You make a good point about the stop and go; maybe I’m struggling because I can’t get into the flow with all of the stop and go. Unfortunately, even the residential areas near me are still very urban so not really an option. I’d have to drive about 30 minutes (which at that point, I’ll just drive to the trailhead) to get something without busy intersections.

          1. My one running friend HATES stoplights, so when we run, if we get to a light, we go whichever way is green. Makes for an impromptu route and we’ve had some fun adventures that way, while keeping moving the entire time.

    8. I relate to this so much. I can only get out on a trail run ~2x/month. I recommend the Peloton app… it’s like $13/month and they have a whole series of “Outdoor” audio-only classes where a coach is running too and pumping you up, adding little interesting pick-ups and intervals if you like those, and talking about the music on their playlist that you’re also hearing. Usually the pick-ups are during choruses. Somehow the time passes so much faster for me when I’m doing these. You’ll have to find who you like best but Susie Chan is my favorite these days. You can filter by coach, class type (like intervals, endurance, music/theme which are always fun), and run length among other things. I end up running so much longer when I’m doing one of these guided runs!

       1. Thank you I will check it out!

    9. You just go out there and do it. You don’t need to type up a complicated question about it. Just put your shoes on and start running.

       1. I clearly did not phrase my question well. I know that I just have to get out and do it. I am more looking for ways to get past the mental block I have about street running.

25. Inspired by the interview question above, later this week I have a third round interview with the org’s director of HR. I already had an HR screen interview and an interview with the hiring manager. Provided that I “pass” this interview, I’ll have 2 more interviews: one with the HM’s boss and one with a peer.

    I’m not sure what this interview with HR will be like; I’ve only had HR interviews early in the process before. This job is not related to HR at all, so I don’t think it would be substantive about the job in the way that a HM or team interview would be.

    What kinds of questions or discussion would you expect? What kinds of questions should I be thinking of to ask HR? Most questions I have are team specific, and I was provided with a full benefits overview and salary discussion during the HR screen.

    1. I’d expect they’re serious about people management if it’s a role where you be managing people. I’d be prepared to talk about your leadership style, approach, challenge, etc. HR is often integrated into strategic planning so I’d center questions around that not your benefits package.

       1. It’s not a manager role and I don’t think this role has much impact on the company’s strategic planning (it’s a massive company with a footprint in about 40 states, this role is very niche).

    2. Not 100% sure but My guess might be that they ask you ‘leadership’ type questions or more professional skills type questions if it’s not a leadership role. I’d brush up some responses to ‘tell me about a time you had to deal with a difficult colleague’ or prioritize competing stuff or manage a performance challenge or similar questions. Good luck!

    3. I had one of these recently. They may ask how a former boss would describe you.

26. I just made the switch from spring/summer to fall/winter clothes in my closet and I love this time of year so much better clothing-wise! Anyone else feel like that? I suppose I will miss my cotton and linen come February, but for now, bring on all the wool and cashmere!

    1. Yes! Summer clothing can be really tricky, between body things, and sweating, and fewer layering opportunities. I am always happy to return to fall and winter clothing (but trust me, I will forget about all the problems with summer clothes and start looking at them when snow is still on the ground).

       1. Haha yes I do that too. I’m all about the loose, airy linen ads when they come out. Having just put all that away for the season, I need to remind myself in late winter 2024 that I have ENOUGH!

    2. I love fall and winter clothing! The darker earth tones, big sweaters, wool coats, everything. I miss them in the summer, lol.

    3. Not me. I hate needing to put on lots of layers to be not freezing. It’s a little better with WFH, where I do somewhat prefer sweats over shorts and tank tops, but I much prefer the ease of throwing on a loose dress in the summer and being done vs. needing to find bottoms and a top that go together. And I basically don’t even wear dresses or skirts for most of winter because I haaaaate tights and hose, so will only wear them with tall boots when the weather is actually warm enough to have my knees exposed. Sweaters need so much more care in the laundry – wool and cashmere need to be hand washed and cotton/acrylic are life-limited with too much machine washing so I often hand wash those too. And since I can’t have wool/cashmere touch my bare skin because it’s so itchy, I have to wear a long sleeved blouse or tee under them, creating even more laundry.

       If winter could be like 6 weeks long, that would be fantastic. Long enough to have the change of seasons and brief joy of cozy sweaters as you describe, but not long enough to be miserable.

27. For casual clothes/PJs, I much prefer winter. It’s so cozy in long sleeves and long pants. But for out-of-the-house clothes I prefer summer. I hate wearing jeans and love being able to be decently put together in a comfy jersey dress.

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