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December 2021 Update: There are several options for these plus-size pants included in the 2021 Nordstrom Half-Yearly Sale, with some colors and sizes as low as $47.
Burgundy is one of my favorite fall/winter colors, and even more so when it comes in a pair of pull-on dress pants.
These skinny compression pants from Marée Pour Toi would go nicely with just about any neutral top, but I particularly like the idea of pairing them with a camel sweater or blazer. If you like these but are looking for neutral colors, they also come in black, navy, and olive, although not at the sale price.
The pants are $49, marked down from $79, at Nordstrom and they come in sizes 16W–24W.
Update: We're adding these pants to our Workwear Hall of Fame because they're still around, coming out in new colors, and getting rave reviews.
Psst: here are some other of our favorite plus-size work pants if you're on the hunt…
Hunting for the best plus-size pants for work? As of 2024, favorites include Eloquii, Nic & Zoe, NYDJ, Universal Standard, Liverpool, J.Crew, and Lafayette 148 New York.
Sales of note for 11.5.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – 11/5 only – 60% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 25% off with your GAP Inc. credit card
- Bloomingdales is offering gift cards ($20-$1200) when you spend between $100-$4000+. The promotion ends 11/10, and the gift cards expire 12/24.
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Fall clearance event, up to 85% off
- J.Crew – 40% off fall favorites; prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Up to 30% off on new arrivals
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Buy one, get one – 50% off everything!
- White House Black Market – Holiday style event, take 25% off your entire purchase
Sales of note for 11.5.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – 11/5 only – 60% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 25% off with your GAP Inc. credit card
- Bloomingdales is offering gift cards ($20-$1200) when you spend between $100-$4000+. The promotion ends 11/10, and the gift cards expire 12/24.
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Fall clearance event, up to 85% off
- J.Crew – 40% off fall favorites; prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Up to 30% off on new arrivals
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Buy one, get one – 50% off everything!
- White House Black Market – Holiday style event, take 25% off your entire purchase
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Unicorn leggings
Have anybody seen my unicorn leggings?
I need new workout/yoga leggings, but don’t know where to look to find a super high waisted pair without a broad and hard elastic band sewn in the waist band.
I absolutely hate the broad 1-3 inch sports elastic used in a lot of tights as or in a wide waist band or as tummy control, they are so uncomfortable on my very high and short waist. I want a very narrow elastic band ( around 5 mm) in the waist band panel, or no elastic band and just seamless shaping and deep rib band. My ideal rise is above belly button or about 15 inches in the back (higher than Zella) for size 4/S.
I’m sure these leggings can be found, but I can’t see from pictures and descriptions in online stores what kind of elastic is used (“elasticated waist” or “flat waist” or “comfortable waist” is NOT helpful, aargh), and in person shopping is currently not possible where I live. After the last four pairs have been unsuccessfull, I thought I’d ask for recommendations before trying again.
My current best-fitting pair are from Primark (of all places), and I’d happily get more but they don’t deliver. I don’t really care if the brand is cheap or high-end, as long as they fit (and will ship to Europe). I don’t need any particular compression or pockets etc, but I don’t mind if the waist works out.
Have any of you got any recommendations? :)
Anonymous
Lululemon and Athleta both have high-waisted styles with a wide waist panel and no elastic, but I don’t know whether they ship to Europe.
emeralds
Lululemon definitely has this legging and ships to Europe.
From squinting at Sweaty Betty’s website, they appear to have ones with similar construction and I believe they’re a UK-based brand.
EB
The lululemon align fits this bill for sure. They are like butter. I have so many.
waffles
seconding the recommendation for Sweaty Betty. They’re high waisted with a comfortable band.
Hermione
Marks & Spencer I think will fit this bill – I have lots of their leggings. If you’re on Instagram or Twitter I can post my username so you can DM me and I can share pictures of the inside waist of various ones of their leggings?
Unicorn OP
One of the pairs that didn’t work out was M&S, but I only tried one. I don’t have Instagram or Twitter, sorry, but if you still have a (wash) tag number or something that would be fantastic.
Ribena
On rereading it looks like you’re looking for a higher waist than these have – so false alarm, apologies
Ribena
Whoops – it was me posting as Hermione – so that if I was going to post my social media it wouldn’t be there with my usual handle for here. Oh well!
Cat
I have no idea what the rise is, but I have an old pair from H&M that otherwise meets your description. Something like these? https://www2.hm.com/en_us/productpage.0824997001.html (or #0824997001 if the US link doesn’t work)?
Kate
Lululemon align.
Anonymous
Lululemon, I always watch the ‘we made too much’ section for some offers. They do ultra high rise and it has no elastic.
Anonymous
Lululemon, I always watch the ‘we made too much’ section for some offers. They do ultra high rise and it has no elastic.
anon a mouse
My go-to are on Amazon, the HOFI High Waist Yoga Pants for Women 4 Way Stretch Tummy Control Workout Leggings with Pockets. Found them after someone recommended here and now I have 4 pair in heavy rotation. Good price point too. It feels like they have a very narrow elastic band at the top of the long waist panel.
Anonymous
Old Navy
Anon
The major luxury athleisure brands (basically any spendy yoga pants) usually sell this style. I don’t know why, but cheaper brands seem like they have that tighter waistband or have a smaller waist. Old Navy, Gap, and Athleta are the same company but I have had to cut the waist elastic out of pants from Old Navy and Gap, never from Athleta.
Unicorn OP
Thank you everybody! This is very helpful!
The ones I have tried recently have been mid-range, so it seems like either higher- or lower-end is the way to go. I seems like I can get both Lululemon and Sweaty Betty and HOFI, but Athleta has suspended international shipping (which is of course very understandable). With these options I’m sure one will work, thank you!
I have only visited Lulu once, in Covent Garden, and didn’t think I’d consider them again, but needs must! I very rarely get so actively and demonstratively ignored in shops, it was so blatant that it was amusing. :D
Anonymous
I’d never ordered lulu till last year but I got a few to try and love them. I do grudge full price other than for a plain black pair, I always get the discounted ones and they have plenty but worth keeping an eye out.
Thanks, it has pockets!
I have a pair of Oasis leggings from Fabletics that were super comfortable, high waisted, and flattering, but the top bit kept sliding down during a run, which I attributed to size but maybe they’re just supposed to be loose up there, maybe check those out.
Anonymous
Ugh — my family generally hasn’t gone to college, so they refer all questions to me. Niece has signed a letter of intent to play a sport at an NAIA college, which is something the NAIA doesn’t regard as binding (but conferences and schools may). It seems different than NCAA. Now it turns out that the scholarship is small and the school is expecting her to take out $$$ in loans to make up the difference. Kid really wants to play her sport and had locked in to her dreams there. Parents are divorced and a complicating factor may be that dad could pay but won’t pay, which is probably common with divorced parents.
I wasn’t an athlete, so I don’t get how this goes. (Or how much of the #s are a hidden surprise). But sports generally end when you are 22 and debt is forever. Can kids just back out and go to State U and try to walk on? Even borrowing all of state U would be better than borrowing half of Private U.
I am hoping that the answer is “listen to guidance counselors at kid’s high school — what do they say?”and maybe listed to coach (who may have ideas or the gentle truth that some times there are bigger things going on that will matter for longer). But IDK — her family is in a panic and being on lockdown makes them feel isolated and very afraid.
It also is bad for this is how kids get proof that one parent is not the parent they thought they had.
Z
Does she want to go to Private U for reasons other than sports? Like do they have a specific degree she wants to pursue?
Anonymous
I think the degree plan now is pretty generic and widely available.
Also, Private U seems to be well-regarded regionally, but I had never heard of it and it isn’t of the caliber that would be life-changing for the cost. Alumni base is likely quite small. If it were Davidson-caliber that might be one thing but is more like Davidson-sized.
Also, not a sports person, but if you only get recruited at a tiny school, could it be that all other schools local to you have seen your stats and passed on recruiting you? Or maybe it isn’t too late to apply general decision but you may need to talk to the coach and accept that no scholarship will happen even if you walk on?
Z
She may be able to walk on to a sports team at Public U, but would have to try out, and the coach may not even be having walk on tryouts that year. Almost all universities have club and intramural teams, which are more at a recreational level. Club teams are mostly made up of former high school players who wanted to keep playing without being on the school’s official team. They travel to other schools in the area to compete, so that may be a good option for her.
College Anon
Given that the letter of intent is not binding, the issue isn’t that she has signed. The issue is convincing a high school kid that it isn’t worth incurring serious debt for the kicks of playing a college sport because this is her dream. Fundamentally, this is the same hard conversation that good parents (in your case, good aunts or good sisters, depending who you talk to) have with their kids about college selection. “Dream” schools sometimes work out and sometimes the numbers just make the dream unrealistic. In your niece’s case, there is the added piece that she is making a selection based on a non-academic factor. She could be injured, get no playing time, etc. but would still end up with the debt. You can help with running the numbers, showing the impact of debt incurred, etc. For many kids, the tough love of those conversations does not happen and they pay for it for decades.
TheElms
If she really wants to go to Private U, the best you can do for her is calculate how much her monthly loan payment will be after school. Then take a few entry level jobs that she might get after college (doesn’t have to be the perfect job – just things she might be interested in doing), calculate the take home pay for those jobs, and then make a budget based on what is left over. That way she will see the real impact of taking the loans. For example, she might see that she won’t have any shopping/clothes money with her loan repayment or that if she wanted shopping money she’d need to live with more roommates or in a part of town she doesn’t like, etc. That might help her to make a more informed decision. And if she still wants to go to Private U make her work with her school’s college guidance counselor to see if she can apply for any private scholarships to offset costs.
AnonATL
+1 love this approach and wish someone had done it with me. I probably would have made different choices if I hadn’t been a dumb kid who never realized the impact of those monthly loan payments and crappy starting salaries.
anne-on
Yes, THIS. I did this exercise as a volunteer with HS juniors and it blew their minds just HOW much college debt can impact their after-college choices. Going through the ROI of various degrees (just as a basis for calculating average starting salary) is NOT something 90% of parents are able to do/think to do. And for many parents simply getting into college is the end goal, everything else magically works out! Uh, no.
We are currently talking with my kiddo (casually, at dinner) that going to a not-Ivy private that offered my 1/3 of my costs in scholarships meant I only had loans for a year after school, even with my super low paying first job and how that enabled me to live at home that year, pay off loans, save up, and buy a small studio apt. very young. That made a HUGE difference in my life trajectory vs. my friends paying loans + rent.
emeralds
Yes, this is what you need to do, along with running her through the scenarios in College Anon’s post.
Anon
I agree to an extent; however, a lot of bad data are floating around which makes this tough.
One “study” purports to say that the median college graduate’s starting salary is $50,000 a year. Well, $60,000 of loan payments is more than doable on that salary unless you’re in Manhattan or something. The issue is that the study is complete garbage; the methodology is ridiculous (surveying open jobs that require a college degree, estimating salary, and assuming that all college grads get a job in their field in a role that requires a degree).
I also think it’s hard for kids to understand how things add up. Rent is a small portion of it; there is also heat, water, electric, sewer (some depend on the state), cell phone, car insurance, food, car payment and/or car repairs, health insurance premiums, internet, gasoline, tolls, and then random expenses like clothing, computers, furniture, kitchen items, household items (yes they wear out), etc etc etc.
The end result is that she shouldn’t borrow a huge amount of money to go to an expensive private school. The school is correct to count both parents’ income; it has limited financial aid and money given to the child of parents who refuse to pay cannot be given to a child whose parents are unable to pay. (Now, I wish family courts would understand this and mandate child support payments for college, I’m looking at you Pennsylvania.)
TheElms
This is why I mean find an actual job with a salary range posted for the town she would want to live in post-college. Then figure out the take home pay after taxes, deduct the expected loan payment, and build a budget from the remaining money. The budget would account for things like health insurance, utilities, internet, netflix, cell phone, car insurance, renters insurance, food etc, etc. I grant this is super time-consuming and will not be perfect, but even the exercise of doing it would likely be really eye opening to a 17 year old. I did it before law school and am so glad I did. It took me a couple weeks to figure it all out and several calls to my dad to help me calculate things.
Anon
Yes – this is the issue and not the LOI. There are small schools out there where nearly half the student body plays a sport. It’s a very big recruitment tool for them. I think all you can do is explain is the cost/benefit analysis. I would also see if you could connect her with someone who played intramural sports at the Local U, so she could learn more about that option.
Ellen
Dad would never let me go to a crappy private school to do atheletics unless I got a full scholarship. Of course, I never was atheletic so it is somewhat of a mute point, but I recommend she not take out loans to go to a crappy school that will do no good for her in the real world.
I can’t believe I have been working hard all morning and have just gotten over to Corporette. And it’s Friday no less with me the only one in the office! The rest of the crew bagged out b/c of the temperature out, while I walked in with 2 pairs of leggings, my Canada Goose Coat, shearling mittens and my Nike Airs with 2 pairs of sock’s. No one could even recognize me as I walked down Lex. It was really windy as I went past the 59th Street bridge. It is on days like this that I do not really worry that I have packed on a few pounds b/c they keep me warmer when the temperature is in single digit’s. FOOEY on this weather.
BTW, where is the Global Warming today? DOUBEL FOOEY!
Anonymous
No advice, just sympathies for your poor niece, it must be heart breaking to have a parent do that.
Anon
There are no good solutions here.
NAIA is roughly equivalent to NCAA Division III, but they are allowed to offer scholarships, albeit generally small ones, as you noted.
Her bigger problem is her parent who has money but refuses to contribute toward the cost of college. This is a horrible catch-22 that ensnares a lot of kids. University financial aid departments are doing a crap job of addressing it. This will be a problem for her for her entire college career unless she can secure a scholarship that isn’t need based and covers most of her costs. Has she considered the military (enlisting or ROTC) or going for an Academy spot?
Anon
OP here and service academies are something I do know about (from friends who went and friends who later taught there). Classes are generally full now and you cannot transfer, so a lot of kids do a post-grad year and reappply the next year as freshman for a year later class. If you can’t afford boarding school (how kids usually did it, after getting an athletic scholarship), may working for a year and applying fall 2021 is worth it (IDK — is really HARD to get into). ROTC is probably better (I do believe a parent is opposed, or at least not in favor, but if one can’t pay and one won’t pay, it is your life to live as best as you can) and is easy to find at most non-Ivy schools like State U would be and/or joining the reserves if kiddo has to work for a year and go to community college.
I think to have a surprise like this in the spring of senior year borders on unconscionable. I can’t see who has done what clearly enough to direct my ire (truth in advertising at the school, lack of parental candor, lack of hearing what people may have been saying all along), but my kids are a bit younger and I think I have been a bit candid with them but will make sure to hear from them what they understand their $ situation and options to be.
Kid has nominally lived with dad even though mom has primary custody and IIRC state u generally looks at FAFSA, which would just pick up custodial parent’s $, so maybe kiddo should be very intentional about living at mom’s house and taking a hard look at what the FAFSA actually asks for. [Pls let me know if I am very wrong about this.]
College Anon
There was an article in the NYT (I think) within the past two weeks about talking to kids about college and finances, beginning middle school years. I don’t have a link, but it shouldn’t be difficult to find.
Anonymous
That article was useless. The gist of it was that some colleges use merit scholarships to attract kids with high grades in order to improve their rankings. No new information there–we all knew that when we applied to college. Then it went on about how it’s unethical not to tell eighth-graders that their high school grades will matter but it’s horrible to put that pressure on them. It also completely failed to mention that top private colleges offer zero merit aid whatsoever.
Is it too late in the year for the student to apply to some lower-ranked private colleges where she’d be a target for merit aid? All my friends’ kids are done with applications and the acceptances are starting to roll in.
No Problem
Which top private colleges offer zero merit aid? I went to a top private college and visited MANY when deciding to apply and every single one offered tons of merit aid.
Anonymous
All of them. Here is a partial list:
https://capstonewealthpartners.com/colleges-that-dont-offer-merit-scholarships/
No Problem
Ok, there is a difference between not providing merit aid simply because you have a 4.0 GPA or perfect SAT score, and not offering any merit aid of any kind that you need to apply for. I obviously don’t know the case for all of these schools, but I’d be surprised if any of them did not offer scholarships that you can apply to that are merit-based (where you need to write an essay, have a letter of recommendation, etc.). The article you linked says exactly that, actually: “the majority of colleges however, award money on a competitive basis.”
Anonymous
No, top schools do not offer any academic merit aid whatsoever, with an essay or not. Look at their websites. I know this because I have a high school student who is currently only interested in colleges that do not offer merit aid.
The trend began maybe two decades ago. The argument is “all of our students are exceptional and deserve merit aid, so we can’t possibly choose. We will just give need-based aid.”
Anon
My alma mater does not offer merit aid; however, it offers substantial need based aid and meets all demonstrated need.
It has 30,000 applications for 1,200 seats. The only reason to give money is to lure them away from Harvard or Yale, but why bother? Why not use the money for super brilliant but poor kids?
I think people also underestimate how hard it is to stand out at a top college. Near perfect SAT scores? Yawn – they have hundreds of students breaking a 1500. Perfect GPA? That’s about half the class.
Anonymous
Yup. At the school my kid is currently most interested in, the 75th percentile SAT score is 800 for reading and math. They don’t have to offer merit-based aid to anyone. If a 1600 SAT kid turns them down, there is always another whose parents are willing to pay full freight.
Anonymous
ROTC and the service academies are a crazy idea unless she wants to serve in the military. That is not a choice for parents or relatives to push on a kid. The initiative has to come from her.
Anon
Well, yes, serving in the military is an obvious part of that decision. It’s also not talked about as an option nearly as often with young women looking at post-high school options compared to young men. It may well have never dawned on her as an idea. There is a HUGE gap in American culture between telling young women, “You can do anything!” and actually presenting all those anythings as options.
Anonymous
If you present that option it needs to be done openly and honestly, not just in the view is saving money on education but also present the very real possibility of harm: PTSD, r*pe, assault, etc.
Betsy
Not related to your question, but just picking up on that “dad could pay but won’t pay” issue. The FAFSA is based on the parent who the kid lives with more than 50% of the time. The other parent’s income is not taken into account. Lots of private schools (although usually ones with more money to give) use the Profile as well, which does take into account both parents. I point this out for two reasons (making the assumption that mom is the parent she lives with more than half time): if the private school uses the Profile and the public school is FAFSA only, their aid packages may be based on very different calculations of need, so she may be eligible for drastically more aid at the public school. Two, I’ve seen cases where the parent who could pay but wouldn’t feels guilty and offers to have the kid move in with them during college, and then the next year they are the parent who belongs on the FAFSA and need based aid becomes even worse. Assuming mom is currently the parent she lives with the most, keep it that way through college.
I agree with other commenters that the issue here is not backing out of the letter of intent, but helping your niece adjust her plan emotionally and visualize the financial consequences of her decision. We ask 17 year olds to use critical thinking skills that most adults don’t excel at when they make their decisions about schooling – it is so unfair.
Anonanonanon2
This is really helpful advice and I’m so glad you shared. I think back in my day it was “whelp your dad can pay but won’t, not our problem” BUT I might be wrong (plus I went to a private school and it didn’t apply to me). I’m glad I learned this, though, this is really useful information and exactly the type of thing that can trip people up.
Also 1,000% to your last paragraph. I agree with those that said to sit down with her and go through post-grad costs in detail so she can visualize what her life will look like, BUT at 17 I totally would have been like “I won’t care! I’ll have 3 roommates and it will be fun! I’ll just shop thrift and not buy coffee!” because a 17-year-old brain cannot grasp longterm consequences.
Anon
You’re not wrong.
Source: works at Big State U in department adjacent to FinAid.
anon a mouse
How is the scholarship language worded? Is it guaranteed for all four years or only for a specified amount of time, “renewable”? I know you say it’s small but if something happens and she is injured or hates the coach or for whatever reason doesn’t play anymore, what happens to the scholarship and is she willing to take on more loans for that school?
anan
Does anyone track what they wear every day? I was fascinated by this article on Reaktor written by a guy who tracked every piece of clothing he’a worn for the past three years (including underwear!), and the deep dive analysis he does of the data collected from this tracking. He even wrote a program to more easily track his clothes. I do think the conclusions he makes about what makes a good purchase might be a little different from someone (ahem, women) who also buy clothes for aesthetic reasons. Even though we all talk about “cost per wear”, sometimes the favorite pieces don’t get worn that much. Anyhow, I’m almost inspired to track my own clothes wearing to see what patterns or trends appear. Anyone else’s do this? What is your tracking method? Do you see any interesting patterns or trends?
https://www.reaktor.com/blog/why-ive-tracked-every-single-piece-of-clothing-ive-worn-for-three-years/
Anonymous
I have seen posts on this from women who are trying to get a handle on where their spend goes.
Flats Only
I used to plan my outfits for the week and write them down in my planner. It helped make sure everything was ironed and ready to go, and then also forced me out of defaulting to 3 or 4 favorite outfits and wearing them week after week. And if I was feeling uninspired I could look back and see some options. Hilariously, I was even doing this during WFH in the summer to make sure I actually rotated through my stock of zoom tops and didn’t just wear my favorite 3. I’ve since given it up, but will resume once we’re back in the office.
anon
I do this after discussion here and reading an article about how we should all try to wear our clothes thirty times (meaning, only buy clothes you would wear thirty times). It’s been interesting. I have learned that I wear my shoes a ton. I have learned that I need to buy fewer work dresses and more casual clothes. I have been much more careful in purchasing things.
I don’t track workout clothes or specific-purpose clothes because I don’t want to wear my snow boots just to get another notch, if that makes sense. It does get kind of obsessive for me to the point that sometimes I think I should quit doing it.
anon
Edit: I wear my shoes a ton even though I have a ton of shoes. It’s way easier to get those up to thirty wears.
Also, I track via an Excel spreadsheet I created. It took a long time to create and I started all of my wears at zero, even though I had worn many of them many more times than that. It defeated the purpose, I thought, to start some of the clothes at high numbers. Also, doing this has made sure that I wear a lot more variety.
anon
One more thing to add, ha ha. You can see how this has become obsessive for me.
It takes A LOT longer to wear an item thirty times than you may think, if you have a fairly large wardrobe like I do. It just takes a long time to cycle through everything. I really wish I could remember when I started the spreadsheet so I could tell.
anonshmanon
Thanks, this is interesting!
Anon
Agreed – interesting!
Anonymous
I really like the “only buy clothes you would wear thirty times” rule, that’s a rule with great impact.
It makes it easy to see that a great, everyday coat is really smart to spend money on, but maybe not so another very lovely dress that will be worn five times at best.
I tried to do a little math for one of my favorite tops based on your rule. I have several identical ones of this favorite, and at least one of these is used every week. So far, that means that even though I’ve had them for almost two years, I’m only up to around 25 wears for each. And these are in really frequent rotation. I have other ones that I also feel that I use all the time, which I realize means once every two or three weeks (in the appropriate season), which in reality is probably only 10-15 times a year. Whereas my favourite pair of black jeans probably gets 60 wears in a year. No wonder the color fades!
Very useful way to start thinking, thank you for sharing your system!
Friday
I skimmed this article. It was interesting; I want to dig into it more when I have time. I don’t think I will ever get this detailed about tracking my wardrobe: I just don’t care that much. I did start tracking outfits out of boredom and in an attempt to stop buying new clothes when I have a full closet of unworn clothes that I’ll probably never wear again as they are business clothes but that’s a different issue. I have a clip board with one page for each category of clothes: shirts, pants, shoes, dresses/skirts. I tick off what I wear each day. Spoiler: it’s basically the same three outfits over and over.
Cat
I loved that article too. I attempted to track for awhile in an effort to rotate through more of my closet. What resulted was actually a good purge – if it was a particular sweater’s “turn” to be worn and I internally wished it wasn’t, it was time to go.
What I learned is that I shouldn’t drop any serious $ on clothing that’s not a flattering neutral (for me white, black, navy, charcoal, or deep greens), but that colorful shoes are a surprisingly good use of money.
anon
Yes, agree with all of this!
anon
These are very good guidelines!
I agree that I’ve learned the hard way that it’s better to spend my money on neutrals and save the flash-in-the-pan colors for my discount purchases. The hard part is that I really love color and am drawn to it, but my coloring is best suited for neutrals and softer versions of bold color. If you’re into color theory at all, I’m a soft summer. Heathered colors are my friends.
Rainbow Hair
A few years ago I made a rule not to buy any clothes that I didn’t actually really like, and it was a game changer. No more “I like the color and I can probably make it work with a cardigan” or “i’d wear it all the time in black, but it’s only in pink, but it’s on such a good sale!” or “it’s a little itchy but I look bangin'” or “I’m sure if I just got a better bra it would look ok” — nope none of it. (Of course this was only possible because I had accumulated a perfectly functional work wardrobe, so like, privilege x 10000). Buying less has meant that an expensive (for me like $60ish or even $80) dress is totally doable, if it’s definitely the right thing.
Rainbow Hair
Uh should probably specify that this was in The Before Times. I just treated myself to some new Old Navy leggings, as is the New Normal.
Anon
I started a few months ago taking a photo every day and keeping them in an album. It’s been surprising to see some of the pieces I wear constantly, and handy when I want to repeat something to see that I haven’t worn it in two weeks. I like the idea of tracking purchase price and date for each item and seeing how long they last—but it’ll usually be until I’m tired of them or they don’t feel current, not until they’re worn out like the blog poster.
Senior Attorney
I do this — snap a quick pic every day on my phone. Have done it for years and it’s fun to see how my style has evolved. A few years ago I tracked purchases and cost per wear and it was super interesting but then I got distracted and let it go by the wayside. I agree with the poster upthread who said that the biggest game changer for me has been only buying things I love, because if I love it I’ll wear it.
Anonymous
Gosh imagine having that boring of a life
anonshmanon
His wardrobe I found boring, the tracking and analysis was exciting! Different strokes…
anon
I tried doing this a few years ago and couldn’t keep up with it, honestly. In Before Times, my biggest problem with over buying resulted from wanting variety and realizing that I basically socialized with the same people all the time, therefore, I didn’t want to be wearing the same “nice” top every time we went somewhere together. I might be getting over that. If the pandemic has made me realize anything about my wardrobe it’s that: 1) I need less than I think I do. 2) I love color and although I am a classic dresser overall, I follow color trends closely because it’s fun for me. I need to find a different way of getting that fix than by buying lots of clothes. I have turned to nail polish for adding colors that I know I’ll get sick of rather quickly or are hyper-seasonal, like rust orange.
Anon
Interesting article but you’re right that he completely missed the emotional component when it comes to clothes (typical guy I guess). I have a formal dress that I love, I’ve only worn it once but I would never get rid of it! And for women there are other considerations, like you may not wear your strapless bra that often but it’s really handy when you do need it.
Since I live in Canada where we have (all too brief) very hot summers and long, very cold winters, there are also clothes that I only wear a few months of the year like my shorts but I still see them as a good purchase.
anne-on
It sounds like he’s also missing the ‘how hard is this to buy in a hurry’ – I may not NEED a black funeral dress often, but I am glad I have one in my closet because omg when I do need it I don’t want to drag myself to a store on very little notice. Ditto with a good interview suit – I HAVE had to frantically run all over the place trying to buy a plain black or navy suit in my size for a surprise interview and it was a nightmare. Never again. One always lives in my closet now.
anonshmanon
I think the article actually touched on a lot more than just utility/cost per wear. There was a whole discussion of ‘the more expensive shirt that I like is still more expensive even if I track whether it gets worn more often or is of higher quality and lasts longer. Well, I will still keep buying the more expensive type, because I like it’. Same with comparing frequency of wear across categories, the conclusion that he owns too many blazers, and the realization that he probably will keep buying too many blazers regardless. That’s what I would call the emotional component.
Anonymous
I agree – I didn’t find his view lacking in the emotional component at all! But he’s being very self-deprecating about it, very low-key Finnish, and just mocks his impractical love for blazers and fancy shirts. But if you look at his items, he clearly cares about clothes and is particular about looks. You can se that he has chosen dotted happy socks as the symbol for the socks category, for example, which is not a “10-pack-I-don’t-care” choice.
Anon
I think the information you can glean from this is interesting but would be an absolute waste of time for the average person – but if you have the time and interest, it’s kind of cool to have statistics about yourself. Almost no one but ourselves (or if you’re in fashion blogging or something) takes notice of what we wear or how often.
Anon
We did a wear everything challenge on here, just in the comments, a few years ago. We reported back once or twice a week on what we’d worn mostly for accountability. The point was to wear those things you’re not wearing or get rid of them. I came up with several new outfits when I forced myself to, and in many cases realized I wasn’t wearing something because I needed to get rid of it.
I don’t think now is the time to do that – I’m WFH but want to hold onto an office / conference appropriate wardrobe – but we should do it again in the After Times, whenever this are.
anan
I love this idea!
Davis
My grandmother did this in spiral bound notebooks between the 1950s and 1970s. Maybe longer, but were the ones we found. It seemed like she wanted to make sure she wasn’t rewearing outfits when she was seeing certain friends and people. My dear nan also kept a box of what meals she served when company came over. I have a box of these and they’re fascinating. She was fastidious in many ways and would have really loved Excel or some of these apps!
But me? Nope. I try to rotate through my closet with some regularity, but I know I have my favorites and other pieces that are neglected.
anan
These comments are really interesting to me! There are some really practical and wise thoughts here. reading through the comments, i’m realizing that there is possibly a difference between clothes that I want and clothes that I want to wear.
Pep
I turn the hanger once I’ve worn an item and actively try to choose a non-turned item every time I dress for work. Otherwise, I’d wear the same tops over and over.
KP
Some of us struggle to stay the same size from year to year. If I knew I’d be the same size in three years, I’d buy differently.
Blair Waldorf
Can someone help me find the NYT article that talks about how experts think that vaccine reduces transmission, but it hasn’t been studied? I think it was part of an article that said we are downplaying how great the vaccine is because we can’t trust people to continue to act responsibly once they get it.
Cat
Search nytimes (dot) com “underselling the vaccine”
Anon
Here you go: the URL doesn’t match the article I don’t think but it takes you to it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/18/briefing/donald-trump-pardon-phil-spector-coronavirus-deaths.html
Blair Waldorf
Thank you!
KW
If you are on FB, check out the page “Your Local Epidemiologist.” She has posted about this. She’s awesome, btw. She posts the science behind the virus, the vaccines, the studies and testing, masks, etc. in a very easy to understand manner.
Anon
On tik tok, Kat the Epidemiologist is great. Don’t know if they’re the same person.
Anom
This info from the New England Journal of Medicine is also useful:
https://www.nejm.org/covid-vaccine/faq
Lilau
Thanks for this. It’s encouraging, but I’m still frustrated and angry that so many people are committed to the unsupported idea that vaccined folks will spread the disease. Likewise, I think people underestimate the damage caused by initially misleading the public about masks. It’s hard to have credibility when you don’t level with people.
No Problem
To be clear: no one was “misleading” anyone about masks in the beginning. The problem was twofold: 1) scientists initially thought the virus was spread more by surfaces (like the flu) and didn’t know how much of it was spread through the air, and 2) once there was some science emerging that actually it was spread through the air, there was an actual shortage of enough masks for healthcare workers to use, so people were discouraged from buying up all the N95s and surgical masks because they were needed for healthcare workers. They were acting on incomplete information and a desire to keep our healthcare workers as safe as possible. This is when you saw every sewer on the planet making their own masks and people wearing bandanas. Most retail stores hadn’t even managed to get them into production and out to stores/online for people to buy. And there were still severe shortages of medical grade masks because the general public bought everything they could get their hands on.
Scientists – and people in general – are allowed to change their minds and offer new guidance when they get more information.
Anon
This this this.
Anon
They lied that masks were useless at the same time that they were reserving them for people who needed them, because they didn’t trust that people wouldn’t hoard them. They knew they were helpful, which is why they wanted to reserve them for those who needed them most.
They were also being a bit dishonest about the evidence that it was air borne. Even once there was a ton of evidence, but there was also resistance to acknowledging the evidence that was more of a political issue than a science issue.
anon
This! And now I’m worried we are doing the same thing on saying vaccine effectiveness. We have a huge problem with anti vaxxers so I will continue to be concerned about saying that the vaccine won’t stop spread without any evidence of it. I get the idea is to make sure people are still cautious after receiving the vaccine but I am very concerned the actual result will be more people refusing the vaccine.
Anonymous
No, they flat-out lied. They said that it was dangerous for anyone other than trained medical personnel to wear masks because we didn’t know how to use them properly.
Anonymous
Can you be more specific on who this “they” was?
Mass media is terrible about translating science into pop culture articles.
anon
This was pretty widely reported. You can say it was mistranslating but I don’t think the media just straight up made this up – they got it from some scientists/medical organizations.
Anon
Different topic, but Fauci explicitly said that he changed the goal post for how many people would need to be vaccinated based on his perception of public opinion. Here’s how he was quoted in the Times:
“When polls said only about half of all Americans would take a vaccine, I was saying herd immunity would take 70 to 75 percent,” Dr. Fauci said. “Then, when newer surveys said 60 percent or more would take it, I thought, ‘I can nudge this up a bit,’ so I went to 80, 85.”
“We need to have some humility here,” he added. “We really don’t know what the real number is. I think the real range is somewhere between 70 to 90 percent. But, I’m not going to say 90 percent.”
This isn’t an example of the scientific process in work.
anonshmanon
The scientific process isn’t just immunology. Public health, communications science and policy implementation are ALL scientific fields. It’s not just dealing with the virus, it’s dealing with the people (who have diverse priorities and individual backgrounds). And those who give out the directive, again, are people, with diverse priorities and individual backgrounds.
Anon
Whatever research on how to “knowingly lie to people to manipulate them” is happening in public health, communications science and policy implementation, that is not what we generally mean when we talk about an advance in scientific understanding.
I’m also pretty seriously unimpressed. I blame a lot of the antivaccination sentiment and vaccine hesitancy I see in my community on the policies of my local hospital (where health care providers lie through their teeth to try to get people to consent to them when they otherwise would not). I have followed the CDC throughout the pandemic, and some of their posts seemed so misguided as to actually court conspiracy theorists and anti-maskers. I struggle to find clear sources of information from any public health source that addresses the specific claims made in the antivaccination propaganda I see. I don’t know the story why, but I feel profoundly unsupported in my attempts to persuade people in my community to consider taking public health advice, and every lie makes it harder.
Lilau
This is where I’m getting the misleading language :
“Early in the pandemic, many health experts — in the U.S. and around the world — decided that the public could not be trusted to hear the truth about masks. Instead, the experts spread a misleading message, discouraging the use of masks.”
I completely appreciate the info everyone’s providing and the general discussion. I just want to be clear that the “misleading” statement came for the article.
Anon
It is not an unsupported idea that vaccinated people may be able to spread the disease. Scientists can only say what the data shows. The studies were not designed to determine if vaccinated people can spread disease. This would be a VERY hard study to do and would have dramatically slowed down the process (i.e., nothing would be available yet). There is data that suggests that the vaccine also stops the spread, but this is not certain. Some vaccines stop the vaccinated from spreading and some do not totally (mumps for example). Generating good scientific data takes time. In an emergency situation such as COVID the first recommendations made are based on limited data and current knowledge. As more data is collected, more is learned and recommendations change and evolve. Treatments for almost all diseases have changed over time.
Lilau
Totally appreciate this information, which was generally in line with my understanding. My point, based on the below quote from the article, is that there seems to be a piece of information missing from the discussion:
“Although no rigorous study has yet analyzed whether vaccinated people can spread the virus, it would be surprising if they did. “If there is an example of a vaccine in widespread clinical use that has this selective effect — prevents disease but not infection — I can’t think of one!” Dr. Paul Sax of Harvard has written in The New England Journal of Medicine. (And, no, exclamation points are not common in medical journals.)”
I’m not saying it’s inconsistent with your point, or should necessarily dictate guidelines, but I am frustrated I haven’t heard that before this. Perhaps it’s just my ignorance to assume that “we can’t say the vaccine stops the spread” meant “we have no idea if you’ll still spread it” when the answer might be closer to “it would be surprising if you could still spread it.”
Anon
And he was called out by the medical community by his initial statements (that all other vaccines prevent transmission) and has updated the FAQs based on that. It was a HUGE oversight on his part (and the NEJM) part to overlook a pretty basic fact. The additional comments are below.
(Since originally posting these comments, some of my colleagues have reminded me that certain vaccines allow asymptomatic colonization, and no doubt this will sometimes be true about the Covid-19 vaccines. Plus, the protective effect will never be 100%, which is why while case numbers are still high, we still recommend the use of social distancing and masking in public. These caveats notwithstanding, the likelihood that these vaccines will reduce the capacity to transmit the virus to others remains excellent. (Last reviewed/updated on 27 Jan 2021))
Anon
Ugh, I posted about this on the thread about this article last week, but Dr. Paul Sax is just flat out wrong on this one and if you read the New England Journal of Medicine FAQ, you’ll see that he had to add an update to reflect this. There are a number of common vaccines that don’t completely stop transmission, but they still reduce the amount of overall virus in the community while stopping symptoms enough to be very effective when most people get vaccinated. They’re so effective that a lot of doctors don’t even know off the top of their head which vaccines do or don’t stop transmission, as long as most people get them. It’s just that the last part is really important, and since most people don’t yet have the covid vaccine and there is still A LOT of virus around, the people who were lucky enough to get vaccinated still need to take precautions around everyone else. Once most people have been vaccinated and there’s less virus around, that shouldn’t be needed, even if they don’t totally block transmission.
Lilau
Thanks to both above anons. Super helpful info I didn’t know.
A.
Help me solve/make sense of my feelings about an extreme first world problem?
I’m in a sales-adjacent job, and a big part of my role is to build authentic relationships. For context, I report to our CEO and live/work in a fairly small town.
CEO has brought up, over the years, having our org pay for a country club membership for me/my family (I have a spouse and 3 kids under 10; org currently pays for his CC membership). We had a more serious conversation about it yesterday. Many influential people who are affiliated with our org belong to this country club and the thought is that if my family hung out there it would allow me to build more natural bonds with those people. CEO and I have a pretty significant age gap, so he’s not hanging around with families of young kids.
Here’s the problem: my true-blue friends don’t belong to that club and would never join. I like but don’t love the people I know who are club members. It feels more than a little imposter-y. I would have to keep it confidential that our org is paying (optics) and the people who know my family will be puzzled as to how/why we joined the country club. I’m fairly well-known for my progressive politics and (realize I might get flamed for this) joining a lily-white country club doesn’t seem aligned with those values. FWIW, I am a white-presenting POC.
About us: husband is a golfer, I like to hack around for a few holes on the golf course. Our kids would use the pool a lot. I’m not sportsy so I’m not sure what else I would do there except use the restaurant or attend social events. I do believe that seeing other families there would help me build relationships with those people over time…but would it be at the expense of relationships with people I care more about?
There is a second club in town that might be an option, too — one that’s less exclusive, but a lot of the same issues apply.
WWYD if you were me? What else should I consider? It seems nuts not to take this benefit and run with it — for the pool access alone! But something feels…not right. I would love your help unpacking this.
Anon
It seems like your main concern is what people will think, which I don’t think is a good reason to not do anything. You mentioned that you would enjoy the pool and get use out of the golf benefit and that the club is at least OK if not amazing as a social place for you and the people you like but don’t love. One of the best parts about being an adult is getting to make your own decisions. If this is the right move for your career and you think that it could be fun, more power to you and it does not matter if anyone does not think it’s “progressive“ enough.
AIMS
Also, maybe I’m missing something but the fact that you have keep the fee pay arrangement secret isn’t the same as being unable to tell your true blue friends that you joined for work reasons. Mr. AIMS belongs to a club that frankly you would have to pay me to join but that also has a nice pool which I do like, and whenever anyone asks about it, I just say ‘networking’ because that’s exactly what it is.
I would say you shouldn’t do anything you’re uncomfortable with, but it sounds like you’re more uncomfortable with the optics of this than the actual joining.
Cat
+1
Think of it as the equivalent of a membership to an industry organization. It’s a networking benefit that comes with pool perks. You can tell your real friends you joined for work without disclosing the whole arrangement.
Anon
You joining is progressive and may be a sign to others who enjoy pools and golf to join as well. Sometimes we each get a turn to be first.
And generally: I joined a tennis club that I’d have never joined as a singleton (too fancy! too expensive! can play on public courts for free!) the minute my kids outgrew the blow-up pool in the back yard. And I have enjoyed every minute and kicked myself for not ever having to wait for a court back when I had time to play tennis.
If it is a bad fit, you can always join the other club.
Senior Attorney
This. Blaze a trail.
Anonymous
Personally I wouldn’t do it because I have a pretty high standard for who I socialize with and country club folks would not meet that bar.
Anon
You sound fun. I’ve met some really cool people when I’ve been a guest at a relative’s club, including someone who did a solo circumnavigation around the world in his 50s as part of some huge race well-known to sailors. It would have been a shame if my snobbery had prevented an introduction to someone who isn’t just doing the same old 9 to 5.
Anon
Can we retire “you sound fun?” as one of the more obnoxious passive aggressive put downs around here?
Anonymous
No. You just confirmed its effectiveness.
Anon
It’s so lazy.
pnwanon
Who cares.
Anon
It pretty much makes me detest anyone who uses it, even if they had a valid point (which this commenter did, other than her use of an obnoxious petty phrase). Just say you disagree, FFS, be a grownup.
Anon
Do it. I think if your employer is willing to pay, there will be negative repercussions for you if you don’t do it.
My job expects me to be part of the local country club but they will not pay for it. I am not a member and I’m sure that has held me back some with my networking. If they would pay for it, I definitely would be a member.
anon
I can easily see myself going through the same mental gymnastics if that opportunity were presented to me. A few things to consider:
1) If you decline the offer, is that going to torpedo you, career-wise? If the CEO is willing to pay, it sort of seems like the expectation is that you will join. And it seems that you do recognize the potential benefits.
2) The pool use alone with three kids would probably push me over the edge and convince me to join, haha.
3) The club members do not have to become your besties. You have a circle of true friends, which actually takes the pressure off to use this club as an opportunity to build deep relationships. You’re going for acquaintance-level that you like *well enough,* which could make your career life easier, more effective, etc.
If you’re worried about selling out — that would be the thought going through my formerly blue-collar head — I don’t think it has to be all or nothing. If you feel yourself slipping away from your true-blue people, then recalibrate and spend less time at the country club. Why not give it a one-year trial run? If you find out that the scene is not for you, then you can have a different conversation with the CEO.
Anonymous
Agree with everyone else – unless your objection is that the club actively does not allow in women or minorities (which obviously is an incredibly good reason not to do it and frankly should probably make you question whether your husband working at a place that encourages that type of membership is appropriate), then I think this is a nice perk and you can just tell people you’re joining for networking reasons.
Cat
The OP is the one being offered the corporate membership, not her husband :)
Anonymous
Oops, totally misread (not trying to be sexist, just inattentive!).
A.
Sorry! I realize my post was unclear — org pays for my boss’ CC membership, not my spouse’s.
Rose
If you don’t join the club will remain lily-white!
Booties
+1
This was my first thought too.
Maudie Atkinson
Chiming in to emphasize this point.
My husband is a POC, I’m white. My husband is also a big golfer: played college golf, plays more than 36 holes a week now, and continues to play pretty high-level, competitive amateur golf. While he was already a member of a club when we met, he changed clubs this year to join a club (much) closer to our home. It is also a club that is much more exclusive (though less white) than his previous club, and he was sponsored by friends and colleagues of mine. He could not have joined when he did were it not for me.
I felt(/feel) very conflicted about the whole thing, but one benefit to our being there is that our presence further moves the needle on demographics, however slightly and slowly. We’ve made it a point to invite “true Blue,” POC friends as guests, and they’ve enjoyed themselves! Friends of ours–a Black couple–joined after being our guests, and we were able to sponsor them. We’ll soon have a brown baby with an obviously non-Western name there, involved in the kids programming, and with any luck, another one in the not-so-distant future. And I’ve been pleasantly surprised by both the politics of folks at our club and how freely people discuss them. On that front, it’s far better than my husband’s previous, much less exclusive club.
I still find the whole thing a little icky, but that has a lot more to do with my own hang ups about money and class and feeling like I don’t belong in so many of the spaces I occupy than it does anything else. In your position, I’d probably join. If your friends give you grief, remind them that nothing changes if nothing changes.
Anonymous
I mean it’s pretty easy to make sense of this? You have what you consider to be strong moral values, faced with something shiny and fun you’re considering breaking them, you feel conflicted about this, so you’ve come here to confess and get absolution. Tale as old as time.
Anonymous
Shhhhh this is too much truth, you might make someone uncomfortable. The constant rationalizations of Amazon and others is really reflective of the sentiment here.
Curious
Lol.
Curious
Please note, laughing at, not with.
Anon
IDK any club that is old-time exclusionary (no women members, no black people, no one jewish, etc.). So it may just be that it is a club that is spendy enough to be mainly white. Rich people aren’t the problem. Not having spaces where people of different backgrounds can meet over something they have in common would be a good thing in this world. Networking is good. Doing your job more successfully is better.
I’d join. Should Jackie Robinson not have broken the color barrier? This is small potatoes, but now that the world is open to us, why not accept the invitation. If you hate it, you can keep it for work and join the other club on your own dime.
Anonymous
Lolololol I cannot believe you’re likening this to Jackie Robinson
A.
So — I’m not here to confess and get absolution, but thank you Anonymous at 10:26 for making that assumption. Geez. I was actually looking for some folks to help me objectively look at this, and if the answer was “don’t join,” to think about how I could present that to my boss. So if that’s the direction you think I should take, I’d love your constructive help with how I can turn the offer down without offending my boss/torpedoing my career.
Anonymous
I think you should do whatever you’d like! But you can’t pretend like your values are important and not uphold them. I think you can just tell your boss that you’d prefer not to join.
anonshmanon
I don’t think it’s really that simple, Anonymous. How are things going to change in the long-term? If people like the OP simple refuse to participate, do you think that exclusionary, elitist environments like CCs are going to just magically go away and stop acting as catalysts for wealth and influence?
Anon
If you decide you don’t want to do it, I’d be prepared to suggest an alternative networking strategy (including one that may be deepening your investment in and relationships with POC groups).
Rainbow Hair
I think this comment is the best advice I’ve heard. We have a local CC that everyone even fancy-ISH joins, and I won’t do it. They do let in Jews and POCs, but hey the fact that I had to mention it kinda says something, eh? Among other things, I just object across the board to things that are desirable only because they’re inaccessible to most people. :-/
Anyway, I think 11:19’s advice is really good. Is there another org, maybe less leisure-based and more service-based?, that could still serve as a strong basis for networking? A lot of the women in my (extremely welcoming) social club who need a big network to do their jobs are also members of local chambers of commerce, women-in-business type leagues, POC women of City clubs, etc. And our super low key club, in the Before Times, was also a great basis for expanding networks, since we have a ton of different backgrounds, but geographical proximity, aligned-ish values, and a shared non-business interest!
But also, if you join for work because that’s really the best professional choice, I wouldn’t hold it against you, and you shouldn’t hold it against yourself. In this late-stage-capitalism dystopian nightmare, joining a country club for work is def. a forgivable concession.
Anonymous
Join. Have work pay. Bring your “real world” friends as guests and let them enjoy your work perk.
If you feel like your friends will be judgy or weird about it, keep it super casual. “Im in sales; it’s in large part a work thing.”
We don’t belong to the fancy CC in town but a lot of friends do. Some do it for golf, some are bored housewives, some are the wives of execs that do it for work. My friend isn’t really the CC type but their family belongs. Her husband is a biglaw partner. When it came up in convo she said “yeah [husband] takes clients golfing a lot ::eye roll::.” That was the end of it and I never thought more about it. Of course she goes for the pool in the summer and I happily join her as a guest.
Anon
Join the club because your actual true-blue friends aren’t going to care. I refuse to see why a woman POC joining a historically male and white club is somehow bad.
Anon
+100
Your real friends won’t care, especially if you tell them it’s for work
These clubs will remain lily white and old fashioned unless other people join.
Your kids will enjoy the pool, that’s reason enough to join.
Anonymous
I would do it, but I am in an area where country club membership comes with much less baggage and many fewer assumptions by non-members regarding who you are as a person.
Anon
Yeah I come from an area with probably over 100 country clubs. Some are very exclusive and very expensive, some are not.
Grew up blue collar and my parents belong to a not fancy one. Some folks there are also blue collar (my dad’s best friebd at the club he a house painter), others are lawyers. I think the annual dues (covering everything but food/drink) are less than 5k… my dad plays golf 10 months a year and plays about 6 nights a week in the summer (my mom plays 6 months a year and 3ish times a week) so it’s a great deal.
Same thing with private schools. They’re everywhere in my area. Some cost 40k a year, some cost 5k a year. Scholarships are common, I went to one of the very fancy ones on 100% scholarship.
I was embarrassingly old when I realized that in many places country clubs and private schools are a) not very common (like there may only be one in the area) and b) are generally expensive and exclusive
anon a mouse
I understand your hesitation but it sounds like you like your job, and your boss? If so, I think you should join. Look at it (secretly) as a two-year trial. See how much you use the club, whether you feel like it’s too much of an obligation, whether it really does help you forge those relationships. I like the suggestion to think of it as a networking group, albeit one with a high price of access. If you give it a good try and it doesn’t pan out the way your boss expects, I think you can have a different conversation after you’ve made the effort.
Anon
This is a good suggestion. My inlaws belong to CC just for golf purposes (and when DH was a kid, for the pool) and they are as progressive as they come. Hopefully you’ll find some like minded folks there, but my vote is to just give is a try. I don’t think you are selling out your values, as long as you are still yourself when you are there.
Anon
It sounds like you are in part uncomfortable with work deciding how you spend your free time / social time. I can’t imagine this is the only or best way to get to know families with young kids in your town; why not use COVID as a reason to revisit this conversation in a year and in the meantime get involved in something else, like the children’s museum or library board or a tutoring org or the PTA?
Anonymous
I would join for business and career development reasons, and if your friends ask, tell them it was for your career. You don’t have to be besties with folks there, just get to know them socially so they know who you are when you reach out for a sales introduction. Also, once you are there, look for social orphans like blue collar stepping up, folks from the non-dominate religion, etc. You will likely find good allies and potentially good friends there.
Anonymous
I would consider what the CEO’s expectations are around how much time your family will spend at the club and what you will do there. I’d also consider minimum spend requirements for dining, etc., and COVID safety. I would be fine golfing this summer, maybe playing tennis. Probably not swimming if the more contagious variants take hold. Definitely not indoor or outdoor dining. Your risk tolerance may vary.
How much time have you spent at the club? If you haven’t spent much time there, you might consider asking CEO to bring you as a guest a few times in the spring before you commit. My husband and I are not country club people, but we have spent a fair amount time at his parents’ relatively laid-back country club and it’s not nearly as horrible as we assumed it would be.
Anon
Join the club. You are judging yourself the way you judge other people for joining. Maybe this is a lesson to you.
Besides, hanging out with your true blue friends isn’t a sales generating thing for you. Obviously your boss wants you to go where the potential customer base is.
My sister and her family belong to a small local club that seems to be part of their neighborhood, though they did have to join and pay. I went to a party there with her and I was surprised at how normal all the people were. They also have a pool and gold. Golf wasn’t something my sister and her family did before moving to that neighborhood, but it has been a really nice bonus to be able to play during the pandemic, and the club relaxed rules requiring foursomes, so just she and her husband will go play nine holes as a way to separate the work day from the evening. (Not this time of year on haiku, but they continued well into the fall)
Anon
So, the San Francisco school board voted to rename 44 schools that it believes has racist names (bye, John Muir Elementary and Lincoln Elementary!), but without community input, to the tune of a few million dollars for all the new signage and paperwork, and all while schools have not reopened since last year as the pandemic rages stronger than ever and the stay at home order is lifted. Can’t help but laugh at how absurd this situation has become in my city. Is it too early to start drinking?
Anon
My district is doing this, too. It has some poster-children for bad decisions at the time, but considering it can’t even get kids back in school and has no viable plan to do so before . . . 2022? all kids are vaccinated (n.b., it struggles with normal vaccines for some kids every year, don’t see why covid-19 would somehow miraculously get done)? IDK. But they put this at the top of the list like it will change anything.
I’m all for not naming anything after Diane Feinstein, but come on. Ditto Lincoln. I think they should name everything after trees — no risk of redoing this in 5-10 years.
cara
Wait . . .Lincoln as in Abraham Lincoln? What am I missing here?
Anon
From the NYT Article about this: “Lincoln, who had a high school in the city named for him and also made the list, has been criticized for his response to the so-called Minnesota Uprising, in which more than 300 Native Americans were sentenced to death by a military court after being accused of attacking white settlers in 1862. Lincoln said he found a lack of evidence in most of the cases and reduced the number of condemned to 38, who were hanged in what was thought to be the largest mass execution in U.S. history.”
cara
. . . . if we’re going to this, I agree, name them after trees.
Cat
I had the same thought! What did he do that outweighed his overall legacy??
Side note- thank goodness I never wanted to run for office. Someone from early-mid 90’s middle school would remember me using “g@y” as an insult — as in “that’s so g@y,” ubiquitous at the time — and cancel me. (Adult me cringes in horror at all of us, of course!)
Anon
Don’t forget you were mean to that money snapshot poster on Wed, Cat.
Anonymous
No one gets an “overall legacy” anymore.
Anon
Ok stalker @10:39
anon
Ugh same! That plus using the r word as an insult. I am so embarrassed I ever used either of these as insults and now call people out on doing the same but at the time I really didn’t realize what I was doing. I’m reminded of the South Park episode about the use of the f word where the kids all think it’s just a mean word to refer to motorcyclists that annoy them and don’t get that it’s a slur. It doesn’t make it ok and I wish I could take it back but at the same time I feel like we don’t really give people room to grow and evolve and judge people by the worst thing they ever did or said only
Anon
I generally think I’m liberal and progressive but dear lord at this rate we won’t have anyone left to name anything after!
I firmly believe in judging people’s actions/words in the context of their time. No persons actions will age well compared to 2021.
anonshmanon
If I had sat on that community panel, I probably would have argued for keeping Abraham Lincoln. But I disagree with the slippery slope argument entirely! We do have enough inspiring human beings in our society and history that we can name stuff after. Spread the fame around. There are so so many community organizers, scientists, educators that make a difference, lift them up.
I also have no problem with the fact that nothing is forever. Someone who we pick today and name a school after, may be viewed differently fifty years from now. If so, then we reevaluate. We are nowhere near being a perfect society, so there is no reason to stagnate just yet.
Anonymous
Our school district now has a rule that schools cannot be named after people. I think it was enacted to prevent the confederate schools from being renamed for civil rights leaders, but it does avoid issues with name baggage.
Cb
Oh gosh, that feels like it should be done in collaboration with schools – a good project for kids. And aren’t some of those schools uniform? I used to live in Twin Peaks and I used to see kids in uniforms but not sure if they were private or charter.
Anon
Are they supposed to open schools when the pandemic is raging!?!? I get your point OP generally, but if the general case numbers are up, not like they can reopen any time soon.
Schools should open
Yes! They should open schools. Now! We need lots of re-education about this across the country. Schools during Covid have been studied, and the down side of having them closed (mental health problems in kids, substantial reading and math loss, booming Type 2 diabetes numbers due to inactivity) seems to substantially outweigh the manageable risks of having schools open. Open schools! (Check out today’s NYTimes opinion piece about it and numerous articles and papers including American Academy of Pediatrics data and CDC recommendations.)
Anon
Lots of people here sick of their kids, lol.
anon
That’s pretty uncharitable. The kids are not alright, especially those in less-in-ideal home situations.
Anon
This has nothing to do with being sick of our kids. JfC grow up.
Anon
The fake indignation here is hilarious. I am sure you all are definitely doing your part for the poor underprivileged kids you are invoking here.
Anon
My local district has been doing hybrid all year. There have been a couple closures but there surprisingly hasn’t really been school transition other than via after school sport teams (all the districts in the area elected to continue in person sports). But that aside, it’s not people who are sick of their kids – it’s because 100% virtual school is terrible for children. Virtual kindergarten is not a thing that should exist.
Anon
I feel like quality of life at home must be pretty dismal if it’s a dip as compared to school. I always learned more (more time to read!) and was more active (more time outside!) at home than at school. I understand why kids from homes in crisis would be struggling, but it’s alarming to me that school is an upgrade from so many kids’ own families.
Anon
The equivalent isn’t kids spending time with their families, though – it’s kids being parked in front of zoom all day while their parents try to work. They’re not reading and playing outside because they still have to go to a worse version of school
Anon
Yeah, I would definitely have asked my parents to take me out of Zoom school. I stand by the parents who are taking their kids out of school altogether right now, especially in the younger grades where virtual school doesn’t make no sense and probably isn’t a huge upgrade over an hour Sesame Street and a video call to grandma.
Anonymous
All kids are suffering because of lousy on-line school. Last year, my high-schooler spent her days doing thoughtfully constructed hands-on activities and having group discussions. This year, her on-line teachers are not lecturing or hosting group discussions. They just assign the kids to watch YouTube videos and then take on-line quizzes. Not sure how they are supposed to be learning French without actually speaking it.
Anon
Also I should probably point out that a lot of parents still need some sort of care for their kids, so they send them to the Y or a center (it’s been popular to run them out of struggling fitness studios) where they help older kids sit through online school. It’s really the worst of all worlds – they get the same covid risk they would in a school setting but have to deal with terrible zoom classes. The kids generally aren’t even in the same class anyway, so you’ll have one kid in zoom english class while another is in zoom phys ed doing jumping jacks and running around next to them. It’s ridiculous.
Anon
I feel there’s no good excuse for poor quality online high school courses. I took AP classes online as a high school student, and they were fabulous. There have been successful programs for years now (e.g. Stanford Online). I’m not saying it’s the same as going to school or that it’s going to work for every student, but the breakdown shouldn’t be in what’s offered academically.
anon
My baby is too young to be in school so I have no dog in this fight but I think schools need to be open because it’s really harming kids. I value educating kids. And you should too.
Seventh Sister
Yup! I sure am sick of my kids, but I want them (and all the other kids) back in school because they are depressed, floundering, and it’s the right thing to do.
Anon
My (elementary) child has been attending school all year — with masks, distancing, filtration, open windows (and also temp checks and certifications and hand sanitizer). There have been 3 cases leading to two 2-week shutdowns, all from community sources, and none of the 3 passed covid to anyone within the school. It can be done if there is a will, and my kid is doing much much better than last spring when school was shut down — academically, socially, mentally.
Anonymous
It works with masks, distancing, filtration, and open windows. Our district is against all of those things, so our classrooms will never be safe.
Anon
Yeah! Screw the teachers! I can’t stand my kids being at home. – everyone here
anon
My mom is a teacher and I don’t have school aged kids (so no difference in my life is schools are open) and we both think schools should be open. Not everyone who thinks schools should be open is saying so out of self interest (other than my self interest in having an educated population and caring about the welfare of kids other than my own).
Anon
YeR JusT bAd MoMs!
The internalized misogyny runs deep.
Anon
Yeah, instead screw those daycare teachers. Or maybe screw parents, they should quit their jobs and stay home.
Anon
You seem to think this is a zero sum game.
Anon
That’s a big leap, Anon at one thirty six. I think some folks are just trying to get at the point that people treat school as glorified, free daycare and don’t actually enjoy their kids as much as they would otherwise admit. Although kudos to the ones that did actually admit that!
Anonymous
There is a big difference between enjoying your kids and enjoying juggling cr@ppy Zoom school and WFH. I enjoy my kid just fine when she is not constantly barging in to my meetings to ask me for calculus help. I can only imagine the misery with little kids.
Anon
It’s not that big of a leap. We’re talking about whether or not our children receive an education. And when mothers talk about the need for school, they get accused of not being able to stand their kids, ie being a bad mom. It’s the easiest (and most degrading) way to shut women up when they voice their concerns. Of course! We’re just selfish.
Anon
Way to keep ignoring my point to scream misogyny Anon at three forty nine. My point is that parenthood isn’t all it is cracked up to be–no intent or actions to silence women here. It’s a cheap trick to scream sexism to silence a viewpoint you don’t like.
Anonymous
Also in California and considering that the SF public school district is majority minority and that so many parents are in low-income essential jobs, I think it does far more harm to kids to leave the schools closed than it does to leave the current names in place. I think almost everything else should be shut down (bars, restaurants, indoor shopping) with a laser focus on reopening schools – and I’m very conservative when it comes to pandemic risk. I don’t have kids and believe that reopening schools should be the #1 priority in our city.
Anonymous
Have you considered that there are actually other people in the world besides your children?
anon
Did this nest wrong? She said she doesn’t have kids…
Anonymous
As I mentioned above, I don’t have kids.
Anon
Spend the $ on PPE and preparedness (air filters, etc.).
Anonymous
CA is off the deep end. Read up on the toxic Marxist anti-Semitic ethnic studies curriculum being forced through.
Anon
What?!
Anonymous
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/california-ethnic-studies-curriculum
Anon
I would like to raise a generation of children who see both sides of a story. What happened to the Jewish people is wrong, but the solution was also an injustice to the Palestinians. That isn’t antisemtitic. That’s just trying to tell the whole story.
Anonymous
Omg that’s horrifying there is no other side to the Holocaust
Anonymous
This is terrifying.
Anon in Dallas
Please don’t imply someone said there was two sides to the Holocaust Obviously no one said that.
anonshmanon
From this article it sounds like there are serious problems with the model curriculum in how it represents Jewish culture. It also seems clear that selecting a panel of experts all hailing from the same school, with ties the boycott and divestment movement played a big role in creating such a skewed perspective. I hope that most school boards make use of their right to adopt a different curriculum until this is fixed (although, at the third draft, it’s not clear that there is sufficient political will to fix it). I don’t think it’s toxic Marxism to point out the ways in which capitalism hurts people and certain groups of people more than others.
Anonymous
Literally that is what she said.
Ellen
I can’t believe how dumb this is. If this was April 1, I’d call it an APRIL FOOL’s joke, but it’s not and if it’s serius, we are all heading directly down the toilet bowl, and fast. FOOEY!
Anon
L O L
cara
I think this is a good thing to do but 1) it shouldn’t take time away from COVID related issues and 2) as one of the students said, there is more the schools could do to deal with racism, so this shouldn’t slow that down either.
Anonymous
I tend to lean against renaming except in egregious cases (like if there were a Nathan Bedford Forrest Elementary), but I think the timing on this is horrendous. I read the New York Times article linked above and the spreadsheet the school board used to assess whether the names were racist looks like it was written by a sixth-grader who spent an hour on Yahoo Answers. The whole thing comes off as really juvenile, but it’s a topic that should be taken seriously – at the right time, which is not now.
Anon
It’s never the right time, things like this are never the right priority.
Anon
^This exactly.
Anonymous
We’re in a global pandemic, kids in San Francisco have been out of school since last year, and the school board spent the entire meeting on this and didn’t even discuss a reopening plan. Yes, it is 100% the wrong time to focus on a rushed feel-good project that didn’t even incorporate community input from the majority-minority student population. I 100% stand by what I said and I did NOT say “it’s NEVER the right time.”
Seventh Sister
If they are anything like our school district, this isn’t really taking away from their reopening planning, because they aren’t doing a g-d- thing on that front. Changing school names sounds…mildly productive?
Anonymous
I’m wondering if it makes sense to get an MBA/what’s the value of an MBA these days?
Anonymous
That’s just way too broad a question for any meaningful answer
Anonymous
it depends. We’d need more info to give you a better idea.
Anon in Dallas
A sit in class MBA or an executive MBA? They have VERY different value?
Shananana
Yeah, was going to say this. I did an executive program (in person on weekends for 2 years) about 12 years into my career when trying to make a jump into higher level roles and it has helped me level up. Mainly around finally being comfortable with financials at a higher level of analysis but also in getting very comfortable presenting ideas in front of other people. The networking for my program was great, easily 15 people in my 70 person cohort have gotten new roles through others in our program. Really though I tell everyone who asks me about it, those kind of programs are helpful in leveling up careers, balancing out a non impressive undergrad (hello me with a patchwork three college bachelors), and when you can immediately be applying what you learn in your day to day.
I say all that to add, there are other ways to do all of the above, and I think unless your company is paying at least a portion or you have some other kind of outside funding (GI Bill, etc) it is expensive for what it is and you could probably source what you feel you need out of it in other ways.
Anon in Dallas
Yours was in person which is good. So many today are online only and aren’t at even kind of impressive institutions. I am very dubious about the value of an online executive MBA program
Shananana
yes, because of my more more dubious undergrad, I went to a name state school program that is ranked on purpose. Agreed, there are way to many degree mill MBAs out there.
Tweeter
It depends on your industry and / or if you want to change industries.
Ellen
Also, if you want to meet eligible guys, the MBA classes may be a good starting place, as long as the school is a very good one, and they can get good paying jobs afterward to support the both of you.
Anon
I got one, 5x’d my salary, totally worth it.
Anon
Ditto! But 8 years ago…
WSJ
Wall Street Journal recently did an article analyzing this. It talked about both the executive and full-time MBA programs.
anne-on
Do you have a link? I’d be curious because I haven’t really seen a good in-depth ROI out there and of course all the college boards/colleges themselves are all gung-ho about it (profit!!).
Your Why?
Caveat to the ROI piece: what are you looking to get out of it? No MBA program worth its salt can make claims about salary or level as a measurable ROI that you can expect, simply because those are dramatically different depending on your industry, function, and current level, and where you want to end up. If you determine what you want specifically, have a conversation with someone at your target schools around how the program can meet those specific needs, what variables apply, and what is still left up to market forces.
There are excellent online and part time programs for working professionals and execs out there, but you’ve got to ask a ton of questions of the programs themselves before you decide.
Source: I work in exec/PT MBA careers and admissions.
Hopeful Things
I’m feeling pretty down today, so can we start a thread about things that are making you feel hopeful about the state of the world/society at large? I’ll start: I’m seeing increased interest in media and social media in gardening with pollinators/wildlife/nature in mind. It makes me feel hopeful to think about what could be accomplished if this was put into place on a wide scale. Please share anything you have . . . I need it!
Cat
Small thing, but my neighbor was hunting for a missing package that Fedex marked as delivered – only to have the (wrong) recipient actually call her to arrange to drop it off. (Same house number, several blocks away. The phone # was on the shipping label.)
Cb
Yes to the gardening – I’m a budding gardener and really have been inspired by the number of native wildflower meadows and a focus on pollinators. We moved house and our garden is quite mature and formal and I’m trying to figure out how best to make it more environmentally friendly.
I also think teenagers are amazing – like these kids are so engaged with social and environmental issues.
Anonymous
I’m so impressed by my community’s spirit. Eating outdoors in frigid temps to support our restaurants, innovating to get food to our neighborhood, driving the elderly to vaccine appointments, wearing masks.
H13
My local buy nothing group has been the most wonderful community builder. It has also kept so many things out of the landfill (at least for now). I love how popular these groups have become and hope they continue to grow!
PNW
My kid’s university LGBT+ Instagram page posted a totally charming and wholesome video from the director with some tips and encouragement for the long pandemic slog. Included things like “drink a glass of water” and “watch a funny movie with your roommates”. It was so simple and good-hearted. My kid sent me a picture of herself drinking some water :)
Booties
Love this.
Anon
I am hopeful because 30 more days, then March! There will still be cold weather, buy January and February will be in the rearview mirror.
Anon
Mainly the vaccine. But also Jen Psaki and a president who doesn’t communicate by angry tweet.
Anonymous
If you had been dating someone for ~3 months would you assume you were celebrating Valentine’s Day? Would you ask if he wants to?
I’m sure I’m weirdly overthinking. Honestly, it’s not a big deal to me either way, mostly don’t want to be caught without a card/thoughtful gift if he has one for me. He got me a Christmas gift and I hadn’t (oops), but his birthday is in Jan so I was able to do something nice for that. He’s gotten me a couple small “thinking of you” type gifts too.I don’t want to overdo Valentine’s Day in a weird pressurey way but would feel bad not to have something for him in return if he takes it seriously.
Anokha
If he got you a Christmas gift, I think it’s a safe assumption he will get you a Valentine’s Day gift too!
Anonymous
What is even the point of dating someone for three months if you can’t say “hey Valentine’s Day is coming up, I was thinking maybe fondue night at home? Do you have any ideas?”
Anon
Yes, I would assume we were celebrating especially if you’re exclusive. I would get a card and a little gift just to show you care but not go overboard on the cupid and hearts nonsense.
alyssa
Oh gosh this made me realize I have to figure out valentines day too. I’ve been seeing this guy for ~2 months and we didn’t exchange Christmas gifts and also I’ve been having mixed feelings about being in a relationship at all tbh.
Cat
I’d bring it up, low-key. I’d say something like “hey are you into Valentine’s Day? Want to order fancy takeout to celebrate?” or something like that. He might be wondering the same thing… it’s such an awful pressure-y holiday at this relationship stage! If he’s happy to mark the day I’d maybe just do a small gift (like a game to play together, book he’d mentioned wanting, etc).
Anonanonanon2
I’d say only be low-key if you truly are low-key about Valentine’s Day and plan to stay that way? If you’re the type of person who takes it seriously, and it’s really important to have a partner who goes all out for things like that, that’s completely OK! But tell someone early in case they aren’t on board, so you can find someone who will treat you how you want to be treated!
The original Scarlett
Totally agreed. I love Valentines Day when I have someone to celebrate with and am just generally not a “chill, cool girl.” Telling my husband that early on was a great decision- he’s not into those things but knows it makes me happy.
Cat
Fair point. I myself am not a big V-day person so answered from that perspective — but if you love the holiday best to talk about it upfront!
Ellen
If you’ve been romantic enough to date, then yes, but if you are just at the hand holding stage, no. I always judge Valentine’s Day by the Horizontal Hora. If you’ve done the dirty deed with him more then once successfully and want more, then yes. If only once and no more, then no. If never, this is not the holiday for you to start.
Anonanonanon2
When I was dating my now-husband, I was a single mom paying a sitter $15/hour while out on a date and I was not there to play. Our second date I brought up holidays I am/am not into and it was a very helpful conversation. I literally said “Look, I’m not into New Year’s Eve, if you love to go out every New Year’s Eve and I’m going to be miserable if we do and you’re going to resent me every year if we don’t, let’s just not do this.” (in retrospect I can’t even imagine him going out on NYE).
Anyway, all that to say, I think it is perfectly normal to say “Omg I just realized Valentine’s Day is coming up. I know we did Christmas gifts, what are you thinking in terms of Valentine’s Day? I want to make sure we’re on the same page so no one is put in an awkward position.” or “Valentine’s Day is coming up to me, and I’m a romantic at heart, so I plan to get you a gift and a card and I hope we can order in a nice dinner, maybe even dress up for eachother . I’m not saying that to pressure you, but I didn’t want to catch you off guard since we haven’t discussed it” or whatever your truth is!
Anon
Ok please just communicate now about your expectations. Valentine’s Day is the source of many ridiculous fights that didn’t need to happen, over a made-up holiday meant to sell stuff.
For me, it’s a chocolate holiday and not a jewelry holiday. In normal times, I also don’t want to go out to a crowded restaurant. If you’re new to a relationship please please try to make it low key and keep your expectations low key.
Weird Allergy Symptom
I have a weird and probably TMI question. I have allergies (dust, some seasonal, cat dander), but here’s my odd symptom that I’m trying to fix. For several years now, I occasionally become nauseous first thing in the morning and I vomit. It’s usually after I drink some water to take some daily medication. Lately, this propensity to vomit is lasting later and later into the day. I use a prescribed nasal spray, OTC antihistamines, and do environmental control like allergen covers on my pillows and mattress, weekly hot wash of my sheets, HEPA air filter, etc., but it seems I need more because the vomiting is happening more frequently and of longer duration. My theory is that I have post-nasal drip overnight and my stomach is throwing up the stuff. Besides some low level chronic rhinitis, I don’t really have any other allergy symptoms like sneezing or itchy eyes.
I have another appointment with my allergist soon, but this seems to be a symptom they haven’t dealt with before. I have no heartburn or other digestive issues that might explain my symptom. Has anyone experienced this? What solutions have others had to get their allergies under control? I think I need to turn off the mucous spigot, but I’m interested in what has worked for other people. TIA.
No Problem
I don’t think this is allergies, unless you’re having a reaction to the medication you’re taking. How is it effective anyway if you’re throwing it up most days? I think you need to be talking to a GI doc.
Anonymous
If your medication contains iron, that could be the cause. I never throw up, but the few times I have have been after taking iron supplements on an empty stomach.
Anonymous
This was my first thought as well. Or are you taking a multivitamin with iron at the same time? Empty stomach and iron is one of the few things that will make me vomit.
Anonymous
This is fascinating to me because my automatic assumption is that it’s your medication! If I’m reading correctly you are waking up and taking medication on an empty stomach. This is a super common problem with many medications. Unless you are specifically required to take it on an empty stomach, have you tried eating something with the medication?
I am mostly saying this because I have this exact problem when I take medication without food. Even if there’s no warning to take it with food I pretty much am guaranteed nausea, and it lasts for a while.
Cat
This was my instinct, too. Is the nausea tied to a new or different morning rx?
No Problem
Vitamins in particular. Do not take a multivitamin on an empty stomach!
Anon
I agree, I’m guessing it’s your medication. Nasal spray could do it too, if too much runs down your throat. I’d stop taking them first thing in the morning or take them with food and see if it gets better.
Weird Allergy Symptom
Sorry, I should have been clearer in my original posting. I thought my medication was the culprit too, but then I started throwing up before I took it. I’m lying in bed and suddenly I feel the nausea hit me before I even drink any water or take my medication. Drinking water does tend to accelerate the vomiting. I also don’t throw up every day, more like 6-12 times per year. Most days, I take my medication and am just fine. I’ve been taking the same medication for a couple decades, but this nausea and vomiting only started recently and most times happens before I take my medication.
franklina
It’s possible that the combination of post-nasal drip and maybe sleeping weird, or something you ate, or just stretching, is triggering this. I have horrible post-nasal drip and I end up coughing to the point of vomiting when I brush my teeth in the morning.
Pompom
Same. The gag reflex is really bad when I’m drippier.
Anon
Ugh, I do this too- I don’t generally throw up, but I am extremely prone to accidently gagging myself when brushing my teeth and throwing up then.
When you say you feel it lying in bed, does it coincide with rolling over? If so, that sounds an awful lot like vertigo, which technically means you should feel like things are spinning, but in its weirder forms might manifest as nausea and vomiting. Nausea could be a GI thing, but could also be a brain thing, like vestibular migraine. I doubt it’s really related to allergies, though I generally think that anything that puts your body under stress makes you more vulnerable to other conditions, so when your allergies are worse, other things might flare up too.
Anon
If your medication was the culprit, it would take a long time for your stomach to be normal again, and it might never be normal and you’d always have to baby it. Sorry, but been there, done that.
Anon
It seems pretty clear to me that the first step should be to eat something with or before you take your morning meds. It’s really common for medicine to make you nauseous. Keep a bag of bread or something near your medication and eat a slice in the morning with the medicine. Generally breathed in allergens aren’t going to make you nauseous and neither is your post nasal drip.
AnonATL
Have you tried a Neti pot before? When we moved to our current house I had terrible allergies for like 6 months straight. The nasal spray and allergy medicine would make me queasy especially if I had a lot of post nasal drip. I swapped the nasal spray for a neti pot and it helped flush a lot of it out and not down my throat.
Also I cannot drink water on an empty stomach. At least not much or it will come back up. I usually eat a banana or toast first thing in the morning and that really helps.
Anon
You have gastritis, probably non-h pylori. I have that also, and did vomit in the morning after drinking water as a kid. I feel like it may be hereditary.
Gastritis is something that is always ready to kick up again, so you have to stay away from a lot of foods that would flare it up…even if you feel like you are getting better. Yes, medications can make it worse. I took a PPI for a long time to help and it really didn’t work that well. I ended up going off of the PPI and the med that was making my gastritis even worse.
NY CPA
Could it possibly not be related to allergies but to GERD or acid reflux? Might have to do with acid building while you sleep and then when you drink water it just reacts poorly?
Anon
It’s obviously your medication. Don’t take it on an empty stomach.
Anon
I used to have this. I do think it was at least partly my medication, but sometimes I also feel this way if it’s one of those mornings where I hop out of bed and rush to get ready and out the door. If I can get up earlier or leave later and give myself time to go slowly, then it never happens.
Lately I’ve been trying the Japanese skincare trick of drinking 16oz of water before I eat anything for the day. So I drink about 8 oz first thing (I wake up thirsty and have to take pills anyway) and then I sip another 8 oz as I get ready. I don’t remember being nauseous any morning since I started this.
Anonymous
My migraines present with vommit and often start first thing.
Anon
Does anyone have experience with radiant floor heating under vinyl? Does it work well?
Considering installing a radiant system with LVP as the flooring choice and was wondering if anyone had any advice or burning opinions to share. I known tile radiates heat better than LVP, but I’m not sure how much better. I don’t know anyone who has it installed.
Lilau
No advice/experience on radiant heat. I will say I put LVP (coretec HD XL) in an apartment I renovated and was really really pleased with the product, as was the tenant. I wanted to use it in my new house but my husband is committed to patching the existing hardwood.
Anon
My parents wanted vinyl instead of tile because my mom is a clutz and was afraid of breaking dishes. They zoned the kitchen on a separate thermostat for the radiant heat so they could isolate it at a lower temperature than the rest of the house. It works great, but obviously is much easier to do if you’re building from scratch.
anon
OK, I’m all over this board talking about color this morning, so I thought it would be fun to do a poll. What color looks really good on you but comes in and out of retail cycles and isn’t always available? For me, it’s periwinkle and peacock blue. I get so many compliments whenever I wear those colors, so I hold onto those items with all my might/stock up when they are available. Both colors make me look glowy and alive. Periwinkle was widely available last summer and I’m looking forward to pulling out those pieces again when the time is right.
Anonymous
Teal
Anon
Jewel tones – I’ve missed them!
Anon in Dallas
this is me too
HW
Mint green! I feel like it’s back this year in a big way and I am here for it!
Anon
Emerald green and forest green. I have red hair and green eyes.
Cb
I look really nice in a deep pink and it’s so tricky to find. I want a deep pink, not easter egg. I also look good in a deep red but I don’t like it as a color.
Anonanonanon2
jewel tone purple (is that just purple? You know what I mean, not light purple but deep purple)
It seems like that is never the in color, but if i wear it (which is very rare) I get so many “omg purple is your color!” compliments.
I miss when teal was in, as well.
Anon
Yes to purple bing difficult to find. I want my purple very deep but not bright, since bright purples feel too loud for my style. But the right aubergine is perfection, and in the rare years when it exists, I buy unless it’s a year when everything has bell sleeves or puffed sleeves or ….
ThirdJen
Emerald and kelly greens. Sometimes they’re everywhere, sometimes I can’t find them at all.
Shananana
Agreed! I hunted for a kelly green wool coat for years and suddenly one year there were 4 options available.
The original Scarlett
+1
Vicky Austin
Chocolate brown!
Anon
If my hair is brown/blonde – dusty pink and muted brown (particularly together)
If my hair is its natural black – jewel tone magenta
On a secondary note, it’s been very interesting to me how my hair color affects whether my coloring is soft or clear and how that affects the colors that look good. My skin tone skews neutral.
Senior Attorney
Coral!
Worried
I agree with the blues— I’m looking for a Smokey yet bright blue top— I had one several years ago and cannot find one similar. I also like teal blue and indigo, but have not seen anything in retail lately. Luckily, I love yellow — especially a buttercup and brighter lemon, which suit me and are more available now than mustard, which I look ok in, but don’t love as much. I can’t remember where I saw this, but there is a company in the uk that does styling and sells clothing by colour, where you can search by shade- I think this is a great idea and would love if some company could crowdsource some popular colours every season, or I could order an item in a custom colour.
Anon
Just about every color mentioned here. Jewel tones…especially one like magenta, but more purple, bright true yellow, mint, actual mauve and not this anemic “blush” garbage…not dirty mauve, either, indigo, smoky blue…All of that.
Marie
Yes, to teal! Also a wine hue that is somewhat richer than maroon.
anne-on
Hunter green, mustard yellow, and true navy (not the midnight blue everyone thinks is navy, the midtoned one) and bordeaux? burgundy? wine? whatever we’re calling a rich jewel toned red these days.
There was a period when Jcrew made their wool pencil skirt in every one of those colors, I bought them all, and I will wear them all into the ground!
Curious
A specific yellow-orange that my crayola markers called marigold.
Like some others, deep pink. Not an orangey pink.
A color halfway between true blue and periwinkle.
Olive greens that lean toward blue, not yellow (oh how I miss thee).
Chocolate brown (soooo unfashionable right now! So cute.)
Anonymous
Cobalt blue. I know it was all the rage a few years ago and maybe dated now, but every time I wear something in that color, I get compliments.
Anon
Cobalt or lapis blue. It’s the only color that gets me compliments. I’m very sallow.
Anonymous
Egg yolk sunny yellow and bright tangerine – with a bonus glow if in a pattern with warm hot pink.
Kelly green, intense aqua blue also looks really good. Anything a kindergartener would put in a rainbow.
For neutrals deep, warm almost-black-brown and tortoiseshell are happy, infrequent finds.
Paging Cb
Cb, I was too late to yesterday’s morning thread but if it’s not too much trouble – I would really love to receive your spreadsheet with vegetarian recipes from yesterday if you care to share it! My email is retteburner@gmail.com
Cb
Sending it now!
anon
same here! margsala@gmail.com
Anon
Frivolous Friday question – what blotting papers have you tried and what’s your favorite?
I have very oily skin and blot my face at least once when I was in the office and now, working from home, before most video meetings. I had a large cache of cheap blotting paper (Elf and also a no name brand) that I’m almost done with and want to level up if there are better options. The Elf seems to work okay but I usually use 3-4 sheets.
Anon
I am using some weird roller ball thing at the moment and I like it! You can pop out the ball and wash it. Seems less wasteful than blotting papers.
OP
Very interesting! Wasn’t aware that such a thing exists. A google search brings up the Revlon volcanic roller – is that what you use? If so, how often do you have to wash it and how oily is your skin?
Anon
Yes! That’s it exactly. My skin isn’t super oily this time of year, so I probably use it every other day and clean once a week. During summer, this thing will be getting daily use and probably a wash every other day. I just use handsoap on it and it dries ridiculously fast. What’s neat too is that it removes oil but not your makeup (if you are wearing any).
No Face
I really like Clean and Clear back when I needed these. Having kids changed my skin for the better, strangely enough.
The original Scarlett
Not helpful for pandemic times, but years ago a makeup artist told me toilet seat covers work amazingly well as blotting paper, and she was right. That’s my go-to when out in the world. No advice for the home zoom though.
PNW
This is true, I have often used toilet seat covers when on the go.
I have a very shiny complexion and have used the Clean & Clear blotting paper for probably 15 years.
anne-on
Have you ever tried the innisfree no sebum powder? I have very oily skin, and that stuff is MAGIC. It’s held off shine through all day conferences in Orlando even (remember conference guys?!?).
Anon
CVS house brand is a dupe for Clean & Clear, they’re great. I wait for a coupon and buy a bunch.
Texture is a major factor here. These are the sticky vinyl finish, which I greatly prefer over the powdery finish type.
eertmeert
Daiso blotting papers. You can get packs of 50 – 100 for $2 – $3 each. They are awesome. Also, the Daiso brush cleanser is amazing.
Monday
I want to strongly recommend the book Surviving Autocracy by Masha Gessen. (Someone else mentioned it here recently, and now I’m almost through it.) The title doesn’t really do justice to what it’s doing for me, which is debriefing the Trump presidency in its full implications. So many insane things happened one after another, leaving no time to process, and the book catalogs each event and places it in context of authoritarian patterns in world history. It’s also recent enough that it encompasses the Covid “response.”
Anonymous
Thanks for the rec – I’ve read various articles, but not the book. Masha Gessen is an incredibly powerful voice and her work is all the more poignant for the challenges she faced as an openly gay person in Russia.
Anonymous
ooh I saw her name pop up in NPR’s Throughline podcast and it’s on my queue to listen to this weekend!
franklina
Shout out to everyone who responded to my collections questions yesterday. I’ll follow up if I get anything further from the agencies (like ones with court stuff in) but other than that… if you want me to pay you, contact me, lol.
Trying to get organized! I have like 12 open studies so approximately 500 small projects constantly going and this whole everything-online-thing does not work for me so I made myself some paper trackers to see how that works.
Who else is getting ready for possible Snow-mageddon-2021 this weekend? Boom or bust?
Anon
Has anyone here with an Ikea kitchen changed out the cabinet doors/drawer fronts for different ones? I’m looking at buying a condo with an Ikea kitchen that is totally fine but I *hate* the color. I’m wondering if it would be easy to change — can the cabinet sides and toe kicks be changed?
Senior Attorney
I feel like there’s a whole cottage industry devoted to changing out Ikea cabinet fronts. I have done it for built-ins in the TV room in my last house.
Senior Attorney
And the term for changing out the sides and toe kicks is “cabinet refacing” so that will give you a place to start with your googling.
OP
Thank you — I thought refacing was applying a new finish. Does that mean that the sides/toe kicks on ikea cabinets cannot be removed and replaced with new ones (that would exactly match the new doors)?
Senior Attorney
Refacing is applying a new finish, which is generally a veneer of some sort. Don’t know why you couldn’t do that with Ikea cabinets as well as any other cabinets.
OP
Aha ok, thanks!
Mary Ann Singleton
Look at Semihandmade. They do this for IKEA cabinets. My dream kitchen is IKEA cabinets/drawers (soft closing!) with Semihandmade fronts.
Anon
+1 They seem to be the big player in this market.
Cat
I think Daniel Kanter at Manhattan Nest did something similar (maybe using them?) in the cottage kitchen. It looks great!
Anon
Does anyone really wear ponte pants to their office? I still have flashbacks from over 10 years ago when co-workers had a heart attack if I wore *slim* pants, even if worn with a very long cardigan and nothing was tight around my crotch.
anne-on
Skinny ponte pants, paired with a slightly longer (but not tunic length) sweater or button down blouse, and brogues was (or was, when we all went in) a very popular look with my younger colleagues. If you’ve watched Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist, basically what Zoey wears to her tech office.
Anon
Were your coworkers octogenarians? I can’t imagine my coworkers ever having heart attacks about my outfits.
Cat
Ha, I was reading here a decade ago when skinny jeans ended up influencing skinny ankle pants into the workplace and there was all sorts of discussion on whether or not they were appropriate. My how times have changed!
That said- I’ve never switched to ponte pants. Maybe because the lack of structure feels too casual?
Anon
I recall a friend’s BigLaw orientation, and all of the young women attorneys were called out specifically because their ankle pants suits were not professional or appropriate. Friend is 32 now and worked a few years before starting law school, so this was well within the last decade.
Anon
I remember those conversations here, too. I was told ankle pants w/a suit was a no go.
Was this also before Netflix shows were appearing on PH? ha.
Anonymous
What did they say about the young men’s trendy too-tight suits with too-short pants?
OrigAnon
Yes! I was reading that, too. So interesting how things change w/what we become accustomed to seeing. Now, I see young women w/leatherish Spanx and low cut silky peplum tops that don’t cover their rear ends…with over the knee boots…I think that is so much “worse” than anything I wore, but I did incite a lot of pearl clutching in my day, as modest as I am.
Anon
I do. I wouldn’t have worn them 10 years ago, but I do now. Things have gotten a lot more casual.
Anon
I’ve been wearing them to work since 2015. And that’s only because I entered the workforce in…2015.
Anon
Yes, I have and would again if I ever go back to the office.
anon
Nope. They show way more of my body than I’m comfortable with at work. On my own time, fine. But they really don’t look professional on me. I don’t see many people in my workplace wearing them.
Anon
I was thinking of wearing them w/an almost knee length cardigan with a shell that covered my crotch, but I’m still nervous about it.
Honestly, I think most pants today show more of my body than I am comfortable with. Seeing how these are at least thicker, I feel they might be better in some way.
Anon
Y’all, I just burst out in tears after cleaning up some pieces of poop my cats tracked out of the litter box. I mean like sobbing, lip quivering, ugly crying. I’ve had a horrendous week (both work and personal stress), but had held it together. Apparently poop pushed me over the edge.
Anon
I’m so sorry. I hope your day is gentle and you have a good weekend.
Anon
I hope the rest of your day is better! I can see where if your composure was teetering on the edge, tracked cat poop would certainly be enough to bring on crying. Internet hugs for you!
Anon
OMG this was me this morning about something similar. It’s like I just have nothing left!
Lilau
Oh I’m sorry. I have a real tendency to lose it over little things when life is like that. Sending virtual hugs and hoping you have some time to relax and take care of yourself tonight.
Anon
I understand. Sending virtual hugs.
Davis
I understand that feeling! Wishing you a better day and weekend – hugs!
Coach Laura
Guess what I did last night? My daughter called me at 10pm. She’s an RN at UW Seattle ICU. A freezer at Kaiser hospital had failed and there were 1500 doses of Moderna covid vaccine that needed to be used before 5am. Her hospital got 400 and 400 each went to other hospitals. Word spread via employees and social media. We were able to get our first shot, which was great because I’m immune compromised with lymphoma, which has a 90% hospitalization rate for those that get symptomatic covid and a 15-30% death rate.
I’ve been talking to Seattle Times reporters this week about how hard it was to get vaccinations for my 88yo parents – a Herculean effort – and I texted the reporter, who came out to do the story. Those healthcare workers who stayed late, some 24 hours on shift, were real heroes and no doses were wasted.
Anon
That is so good to hear! I’m glad there are quick thinkers in situations like this.
Coach Laura
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/late-night-freezer-failure-in-seattle-sends-hundreds-scrambling-to-get-a-fast-expiring-covid-19-vaccine/
Anon
I am so glad that you personally got the vaccine because of your high-risk status, but in the article that you sent, it says that most of the crowd that got vaccinated was “too young and healthy” to qualify under normal circumstances. I really wish that hospitals had a plan for these emergencies to rush the vaccines over to the local nursing home or to the prison or to the homeless shelter rather than to call students and family and friends. There is an excellent article in the New York Times from yesterday that explains exactly why it’s important to make sure that the vaccines are distributed fairly and ethically and not to rely on “you can’t be mad because it would’ve just gone to waste.” It makes people not trust the process.
Anon
Agreed.
Anonymous
Your standards for what hospitals are expected to do are not in touch with reality.
Anon
It can be done. https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Adventist-Health-Ukiah-hospital-vaccine-COVID-15847234.php
Anon
half the number and during the day. this was the middle of the night and they had to be used by 5am. They also were looking for over 65s in the lines according to the article
Anonymous
Agreed. Your expectations are stressful for me to read. It was a great thing that all of the hospital staff worked hard to make sure the vaccine doses didn’t go to waste. Can we just stop there and celebrate the victory? I swear this pandemic and the associated behaviors are bringing people to such. point of anxiety that they can’t recognize good unless it is perfect according to their standards.
Anon
If you have a link, I’d like to read it. Thanks!
I hope they can follow up with your second dose of the vaccine. I think the hospitals are all doing the best that they can do. Also, you really can’t blame people for prioritizing their own family. It’s basic human nature.
Coach Laura
Yes, they said that we were assured second doses in ~28 days.
asdf
My guess is that it’s not worth the time and effort. To put this in perspective, 25 million doses have been given out. I’ve heard of 2 freezer failures, accounting for 3000 doses, about 0.01% of the total.
Meara
Ugh also in Seattle and saw that this morning and was so jealous—I would totally get up at 2am for a vaccine! But glad you got one and v glad they didn’t go to waste.
NW Islander
This is so interesting to me, from another Seattleite.
My 75yo dad is immune compromised here in Seattle and he says his doctor says absolutely do not get the vaccine. He is beside himself about living out his life totally isolated from everybody.
anon
If you don’t mind sharing, why did the doctor recommend no vaccine for your dad?
Coach Laura
To answer some of the questions, the State hospital association says that all hospitals should have a plan for soon-to-be-expired doses. The Seattle Times article updated at 11amPST to say that only approx 2000 doses have been wasted in the state so far, some through unpreventable problems.
In line right behind me was a woman 70+ and her blind, elderly husband who had not been able to get appointments. There were also 2 people in wheelchairs and people with canes and others older than I at 62. A couple pregnant women. And I’m sure there were people with invisible disabilities. But yes, it was spread by social media and word of mouth and it didn’t prioritize those who are qualified and a lot of the people were under 30, lots in their pajamas. Most were not related to medical personnel. But these 20-50yo people are going out, going to work and bars/restaurants and giving them shots will help stem the infection, even if they’re not the “neediest” people.
There is a ton of clinical literature about whether covid vaccines will help those immunocompromised in general and blood cancer people like me in general. Dr. Fauci said to an oncology meeting that “Some immunity is better than none.” My 88yo parents – like most elderly – won’t develop as much of an immune response as the average 25yo, but no one should say it’s a waste to vaccinate them. So for those who are immuncompromised, talking to a doctor is best. My oncologist said I should get it ASAP. NCCN, ASH and ASCO says that cancer and blood cancer patients should get it, with the exception of those whose neutrophil count is low. NW Islander, I hope your dad can get the vaccine at some point.
It is unknown if I’ll develop a full response or be protected but I don’t intend to go anywhere without a mask. I don’t go to grocery stores, or hardware or drug stores, don’t go to the office and have only been to the doctor and dentist. I haven’t been in a restaurant except once since March and that was a private dining room this summer during a lull in local cases. I doubt I’ll eat indoors until herd immunity of 90% which may not be for a long time.
Curious
Fellow Seattleite here. I rejoiced when I heard the news on the radio this morning. Freezers fail. It’s fabulous the vaccine didn’t go to waste. And you being vaccinated, while perhaps not a perfect optimization, still makes our city safer. So cool you were in the line!
Coach Laura
Thanks Curious and congrats on your good news.
Cornellian
I would love to hear your (or anyone else’s) take on this: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2021/01/21/science.abe6959