ByKat Hours Updated
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Suit of the Week: Brooks Brothers

BrooksCool® Wool Check JacketFor busy working women, the suit is often the easiest outfit to throw on in the morning. In general, this feature is not about interview suits for women, which should be as classic and basic as you get — instead, this feature is about the slightly different suit that is fashionable, yet professional. Reader M wrote in to recommend this suit from Brooks Brothers, noting: “I stopped at Brooks Brothers to pick up some pants that were being hemmed when I saw their black checked sheath and jacket, fit perfectly right off the rack, perfect summer weight but oh-so-classic suit with great lines. Got the pants too but they are being shortened, the rest came right home with me. I can't stress enough how polished this looks on.” Lovely! I am intrigued by the “BrooksCool” fabric, as well — could this possibly be the solution to the “linen wrinkles like crazy but everything else is too hot” summertime problem? If you've tried it, please report in, ladies! The jacket ( BrooksCool® Wool Check Jacket) is $498, the dress (BrooksCool® Wool Check Dress) is $298, and the skirt (BrooksCool® Wool Check Skirt) is $198. Unfortunately Reader M's pants are not online.
BrooksCool® Wool Check Jacket BrooksCool® Wool Check Dress BrooksCool® Wool Check Skirt
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Sales of note for 12.13

  • Nordstrom – Beauty deals on skincare including Charlotte Tilbury, Living Proof, Dyson, Shark Pro, and gift sets!
  • Ann Taylor – 50% off everything, including new arrivals (order via standard shipping for 12/23 expected delivery)
  • Banana Republic Factory – 50-70% off everything + extra 20% off
  • Eloquii – 400+ styles starting at $19
  • J.Crew – Up to 60% off almost everything + free shipping (12/13 only)
  • J.Crew Factory – 50% off everything and free shipping, no minimum
  • Macy's – $30 off every $150 beauty purchase on top brands
  • Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off, plus free shipping on everything (and 20% off your first order)
  • Talbots – 50% off entire purchase, and free shipping on $99+

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

202 Comments

  1. I like the dress and skirt, but I always feel like BB jackets look so frumpy, at least in the pictures. I’ve never actually tried one on, so maybe I’m wrong? Do the jackets just not quite fit the models?

    Also, I need some Google-fu. I love tie neck blouses but never find any that I love that are within my price range. I’ve finally put my finger on it: I don’t like ones that have flimsy little bows. For example, I love this one: http://tinyurl.com/7uxoxvu, but it is out of my price range. Does anyone know of similar ones for cheaper?

    1. I’ve seen a lot of these on ASOS and Dorothy Perkins, they are definitely cheaper but might be too floppy of bow. The fabric also tends toward the sheer, as in needs-a-camisole-sheer. I have a blouse from Dorothy Perkins and feel favorable about the quality – think Limited, maybe.

      I think I also saw some on this totally work-inappropriate site called Ruche. Makes me wonder if Modcloth also might have some, it’s sort of a mod/mid-century look (feel free to correct me, I’m not a fashion historian by any means).

    2. These are classical and CONSERVATIVE, so the manageing partner can NOT prevent me from using my alloweance on buying this suit.

      I like that they do NOT show anything for him to be stareing at either, and the jacket is long enough to cover my tush.

      1. I like those! I don’t have a specific price range, but probably under $100. Those are great options. I also like the Modcloth ones. Thanks!

      2. I have that French connection shirt in olive green – I love it! I believe mine is machine washable too (or at least I have been machine washing it…)

    6. I love BB suits because they are so well tailored that they are in style (or not in style, as the case may be) forever. And they are so well made that they last forever. And they are made the way suits should be made: they have pockets (hello! women need pockets, too.), all the pieces are lined, the seam up the back of the jacket is sewn properly so that everything matches.

      The trick is finding the right ones. I am 5’2″ and 120 lbs. I like the ones that have shorter jackets and are single breasted. They just fit me better than the ones with long jackets or double-breasted designs. I typically buy BB suits as court suits, so I immediately ignore all pastels and “ladies who lunch” designs. Some seasons, that’s all there is. But other seasons, there are court-appropriate options and I snap them up.

      The California State Bar offers its members access to a corporate discount program run by BB. You have to register, but then you get 15% off regular priced items.

      2. I’m 5’2″ and I like where the BB one button jackets hit me. I just got a black one in the December sale and am really pleased with the cut (it is similar to this one).

    7. Can I pile on the blouse threadjack? Much to my surprise, I have an interview for a job at my dream organization on Monday. I’ll be wearing a pretty dull gray skirt suit (it’s the one that fits my 7-mos post partum body – still nursing – best) but I thought I could go for an interesting-yet-still conservative blouse, maybe in a really good strong green or something. Standard button-ups are not best for my body type right now. Has anyone spotted anything good in the sub-$150 range? I am fair-skinned with blue undertones, hazel eyes, medium brown hair, 40ish…TIA!

      2. Ooh. I just ordered/received a green silk blouse from Nordstrom’s Classiques Entier line that was around $88 (on sale). The material is beautiful. The color is “pine green” and would look good with your coloring and a grey suit (though I wouldn’t describe it as “strong”).

        1. I LOVE AT’s silk/spandex blend blouses. The fit is amazing and they drape so nicely – I may have to pick up that one too…

    10. Kat, with a black outfit ike that you can’t really see it in the photo. Can someting be done about this.

  2. I wanted to share this with you all, since you were included in it (though I didn’t name names…)

    http://www.socialworker.com/digitalmag/spring2012.pdf
    (pg 22 of the magazine, pg 24 in pdf)

    It’s the closing piece of my column in a professional internationally published magazine. (Yes, I am aware this means you’ll all see my photo and know my IRL name but, eh, so be it)

    1. K,

      Your column brought tears to my eyes, as I think it would to any current or former pet owner. But I’m so glad the Corporette community was able to help you through that tough time! I’d like to think that your story is one of many good ones :)

    2. K, that’s beautiful. Your pup was lucky to find you.
      I’m so glad you shared that.

    4. K — I think of you often, and I hope that you know more people care than are talking, and obviously there are a lot of people talking.

    5. K,

      I love the article, it really summed up all the great things about Social Networking and especially Corporette. Thanks for sharing it us.

    6. Beautiful article and so well written. I’ve shared it here before and I’ll share it again – when my cat was seriously ill (and now totally fine) I received an insane amount of comfort from this website: http://prayersforourpets.blogspot.com/. Just knowing that there were people out there that I had never met, specifically praying for my cat, meant the world to me – even as a not super religious person.

      I gain so much from this website and am so grateful for it.

    7. K, thank you for sharing this. I teared up reading it.

      While I understand that Corporette helped you during such a difficult time, I have to point out (and I hope that you know) that it’s a two-way street — you’ve given as much thoughtful advice and encouragement as you have received, and this site is better for it.

      1. THIS! Your words have brought assistance and comfort, and I am very grateful for the time you have taken to provide situation-specific advice to myself and others.

      1. And by the way, I had seen pictures of you IRL before and had thought you were beautiful – I never understood your self-deprecating way of describing yourself.

      1. Hit submit too soon. It’s so wonderful that you received so much support from people all over who you’ve never met. That is as much a testament to how wonderfully supportive you are within those communities as those communities are great.

    12. K, that was so beautifully written, I nearly cried right here in my cube.

      What a lovely tribute to your pup, and an equally lovely tribute to the idea of community, wherever it may be.

    14. Wow, K. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. It really makes my day to know I was a tiny, tiny part of the community supporting you through that dark time. Please keep us posted on your Miami versus homestate career decision as well. I’m sure you’ll succeed no matter where you are.

    15. Beautiful piece. Jeez, now I am all teary eyed in my office. Sniffle. So sorry you had to go through this.

    17. K. That article was so beautiful. Also, your doggy was so pretty. And clearly loved. (Okay, I have a bit of a doggy obsession…but seriously, so cute and loved!)

    18. Thanks for sharing this, K. It brought tears to my eyes and I hugged my two dogs as soon as I finished reading it. It’s also such a good example of why Corporette is special and a unique place on the interwebs.

    20. Thanks for sharing — I was thinking of you earlier today and was wondering how you are.

    21. That is beautiful, I’m definitely a little teary, and thank you so much for sharing!

    26. I am still crying… The mother of my own dog was put to sleep by my ex husband last Sunday. We raised her together since getting her as a young puppy until I was forced to give her up as part of a devastating divorce. Reading your story forced me to feel a lot of what I have suppressed for so long in order to function in a very complex world. I am not even sure how to share experiences without causing people to feel overwhelmed. Your writing IS beautiful.

    27. I’m just going thru this – my beloved pup left the world two weeks ago yesterday after a long battle with cancer – and I know how grateful I have been for the support I’ve received from my Facebook friends. I’m also in your ‘hood, so if you ever want to meet IRL, let me know and we can exchange info.

  3. Apologies for the immediate threadjack, but I had a screening interview with HR for an in house litigation/compliance position with Fortune 500 company today. The recruiter asked me to submit a trial addendum so they could get a better idea of my trial experience. Any recruiters or lawyers out there who could provide any info on what they want? A summary of the facts of major cases I’ve tried? A timeline of all the cases? A “by the numbers” type thing (0 jury trials, 4 bench trials, 1 bazillion motions, etc.)? I’m a little lost and would appreciate any input!

    1. I have NO idea. Is this a recruiter you’re working with or is this their in-house recruiter. Could you just ask for a sample of what they mean? I guess that’s what I’d do in this case.

  4. That dress is gorgeous – elegant, clean lines, utter perfection!

    Now for a threadjack – I remember a while ago when we were talking shoes (which doesn’t narrow it down, I know =p) and someone recommended terry insoles. I’ve tried looking them up on Amazon but can’t find them. The ones I’m thinking about were fluffy, if that’s the right word. Anyone remember what I’m talking about? Thanks!

    1. That was me. I swear by them. I get mine at Aldo. I’ve only ever bought them in the store, but they sell them online as well. I don’t know about other brands, because those are the only ones I’ve ever bought.

  5. The check is not very obvious even when you zoom in…seems like it would look like a plain black suit except from up close.

    Q for those of you who buy Brooks Brothers: what is the best way to get $$ off? The price point is too high for me, but I would love to get some of their stuff, for both me and my husband. Do you wait for a sale at the regular store? Go to the outlet? Any other tricks?

    1. ABA members have a small discount. Other than that… I dunno! Even with the discount, the price point is still too high for me. They do have sales every now and then online, though, and I think the sale selection online is usually bigger than in store.

    2. I don’t shop there myself, but my brother is obsessed with them and my mom shops there for my dad and my brother. Their money-saving strategies include using a BB credit card (I believe this earns points and/or coupons), signing up for their promotional emails, and shopping at the outlet. Hope this helps!

    3. There’s a 15 % off corporate discount from lots of bar groups and alumni orgs.
      You should also try to make friends with a sales person – they will send you advance word on sales. A few times a year they have friends and family promos for 25% off, and more frequently they will do 25% off for cardholders (15% off for everyone else but you can’t combine that with the corporate discount so if you get that, it’s pretty meaningless without the card).
      They have a big clearance twice a year – winter and summer. Also right before Xmas, they do 12 days of promos (or something along those lines) where each day, e.g., all mens sweaters or all leather goods will be up to 40% off.
      Last but not least, they have outlet stores. Quality is not the same but is good. The best is the outlet stores that stock real store stuff (usually more likely around big sales days like July 4, etc.) — I have gotten $300 sweaters for $20 on such occasions.

    4. BB credit card is probably your best bet. You earn points, and they frequently have double or triple points periods. They then send you gift cards in the mail. And I also get coupons about once a month or maybe once every other month for 25% off if you use the card (the coupons can be combined with the gift cards). The gift cards do have expiration dates, but they give you quite a bit of time to spend them. And I think they send me a coupon in my birthday month, which I believe is also a 25% off coupon.

    5. Sales at the outlets. You can tell by the label what is made for the outlet because it has “246” (I think) on the tag.

    6. I love the outlets for sales. Diana — I believe you’re in the Boston area — there is a BB outlet in both Wrentham and in Freeport, ME. The Wrentham Outlets are basically my idea of what h*ll might be like, but the deals at the BB outlet might be worth it (note, they will order things for you from the regular stores and you can use corporate and ABA discounts there!) Also, there’s been some posting about snootiness of BB employees in recent days. Whereas I’ve found the employees at the outlets to be tremendously helpful and nice.

      1. So since we’re on the topic I just came home to a note from BB saying that 4/19 – 4/20, there’s a 15% off promo, 20% if you use your card, in support of the Make a Wish foundation, with 4% of net sales going to their foundation. FYI.

        And, TCFKAG, while I am glad you have such a positive outlet experience, mine is the exact opposite. I always just thought the outlet employees amped up the snootiness to compensate for the fact that it’s an outlet! Meanwhile, most of the regular store salespeople have been very nice (with the exception of one visit where an older woman asked if I needed help picking out a present for my dad).

        Actually, I just got a handwritten note from Fanny at the 43rd and Madison store thanking me for buying an umbrella, along with a few super thoughtful details about our chat and why I was buying it. If anyone needs a nice salesperson in NYC – seek out Fanny. She’s lovely :)

        1. AIMS, my experience at BB has been the same. I bought a sweater for the SO at an outlet and got a nice note from them a few months later asking how I was doing, and alerting me of an upcoming sale. Very nice. I also shop at their outlets, where the employees act like we’re at some couture store and act shocked that every shopper there is wearing shorts and flip flops. Um, hello, we’re at the outlets!

  6. I’m interested in updating my jewelry collection to pieces that are somewhat fine, but more edgy (but not statement). Twisted Silver has a nice collection, though the style is a little too funky for me and I’m hoping for more conventional metals. Anyone have suggestions on designers / etsy collections? I’d also like some pearl jewelry, but less of the traditional or tincup strands.

    I live in the SF Bay Area, if anyone has stores they like in the area.

    Thanks in advance.

    1. Well, myself, obviously. (:

      I could give you a lot of Etsy recommendations, but without a little clearer idea of what you’re looking for, I’d probably just be throwing a lot of links at you.

      My most sincere recommendation is to deal directly with the jeweler, rather than a chain store (no matter how high-end or how pretty the robin’s egg blue box, most of their pieces are still factory made).

      2. Thanks both! Kanye’s etsy store was already on my list (should have mentioned!). Any Corporette discount still?

        I was also thinking of pieces similar to one by twisted silver (link to follow), but less edgy (e.g. smaller links)

  7. Ladies,

    I am looking for specific (with links!) recommendations for professional shirts to wear while pumping. I will be returning to work after 6 or 8 weeks maternity leave (alas, small firm and I am giving birth within a year of working there). I’m trying to plan to make the pumping work for when I return. My non-pregnancy size is a D, and my current size is huge – the girls are big enough that I think I will need some type of curvy button-up shirts so that they are not too huge on the rest of me. I’m also open to any other type of suggestion. My office is on the more formal/conservative side, but not suits every day. I’m hoping to at least have a few outfits planned and purchased before I go out on leave.

    1. I wore jersey/stretchy tops or sweaters the entire time I was pumping, with a camisole and nursing bra underneath. That way I could pull the shirt up and then pull the camisole down to get to the goods. I also used a hands-free pumping bra to continue working/typing while I pumped.

      Button down shirts would probably work but they seemed too fussy for me, plus my boobs were enormous and changed size throughout the day, particularly in the early days.

      I didn’t wear dresses or any shirts that tucked in because I didn’t have the time to deal with adjusting my clothing before/after pumping. Depending on where you pump, keep a nursing cover in the office. I pumped in my office with a door that doesn’t lock and was walked in on more than once (including by my boss… AWKWARD).

    2. This is my life and I usually go for the button-down and cardigan, although wrap tops and dresses have been my friend and I can make just about anything work except for dresses that you’d have to basically take off altogether. I second the rec for a cover (I use a big sweater cape thing) so you don’t get cold if you end up just yanking up whatever top (and for modesty if god forbid someone walks in). I have several of these hands-free bras and they make it easy to just set up shop and keep working: http://www.amazon.com/Simple-Wishes-Hands-Free-Breastpump-XS/dp/B00295MQLU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334172962&sr=8-1

      You didn’t ask but one other thing that has also really helped me is getting a mini fridge for my office. It saves time and seems to make it easier to get in a short session, plus now I have lots of snacks and drinks handy!

      2. Very early in my pregnancy with my first here and I have to say my first reaction to seeing this was “what the h-e-double-hockey-sticks is that?!?!” No judgment just shock that these things exist and that I may find myself wearing one a year from now….

        1. haha, totally. Pumping is such a PITN that I will seize on anything that makes it a tiny bit easier. Congrats btw!

        2. Seriously. I was horrified when I first saw a picture of one the bustier pumping bra but it ended being the most awesome thing ever.

    3. I tried button-downs and knit tops/sweaters. The latter are definitely better – just pull them up, adjust your nursing bra, and pump away. (I would sometimes use my hands free pumping bra, but sometimes just hold the pump with one arm and type/browse with the free hand.) Also, fewer wrinkles with knit tops/sweaters from adjusting them all the time, and they accommodate changing sizes better. Wrap dresses also work, but be careful with the crossover front kind so as not to stretch the neck out.

      I also found that with button-downs, I got colder bc you basically have to unbutton them all the way, and then retuck after you are done pumping. Not tucking is much better!

      Also, I would keep a stash of b**b pads in your office. Particularly in the early weeks, I would leak a lot sometimes, and not a lot other times, and it was v helpful to have extras at the office.

      1. Knit tops, t-shirts or sweaters (perhaps under a suit jacket) are the way to go. Second the pads suggestion; you never know when you’ll leak randomly or be stuck in a meeting. As Diana Barry mentioned, this is especially true in the early weeks. Let me know if you need other pumping advice. I have lots of it.

      2. I preferred wearing spaghetti strap camisoles (like Ann Taylor nylon/spandex style underneath cardigans or suit jackets. I had five or six of them that I wore regularly. The straps were easy to slide my arms out and there was no tucking or untucking required. I just hated fiddling with tiny buttons on button down shirts, adjusting the collar and retucking when pumping was over. Also, japanese weekend makes a few nice nursing shirts.

        Nursing pads were essential in the beginning. Handsfree bustier was awesome.

    4. Try CarissaRose.com – they have bust-specific sizing and zippered, fitted shirts that can be machine washed.

    5. x a million on the stretchy top/cardi combo. I am pumping RIGHT NOW in a wrap dress with a cami underneath. The button-up shirts seem harder for some reason when using the handsfree thingie. And this may make me seem like a complete loser but I MADE my own nursing bra from an inexpensive no-wire, molded-cup T-shirt bra – I Googled it and ordered the clips and strap material on line, and my sewing is no good but this bra looks so much better under clothes than even the fancy BRavado nursing bras. I think there are also services that will convert your bras for you if you mail them away; worth the $15 or so if you have particular “regular” bras that you really like and can get on sale. I have a couple others waiting to be converted at home.

    7. I’m going back to work in a month from leave, and this is really helpful. Partially jacking this request – any words of wisdom or suggestions for making pumping easier at work? I just realized today what a pain in the neck it is going to be – leaking, burning and pins and needles at work, just generally having enormous girls that feel like they’re taking over…I could already use some encouragement!

      1. It helps if you have an office with a door that can be closed.

        I had a former colleague who had a sign on her door that said, “Please do not disturb. Pumping.” She never ever had to worry about people walking in.

      2. Get the handsfree bustier thing for sure, it makes a difference. Have a full extra set of pump parts every day in case you drop them on the floor/don’t have time to wash/nuke them/just don’t feel like dealing. Get a minifridge/beverage cooler for your office because that way you will not cry over wasted milk on the day that you (inevitably) forget to bring it home – I also stick the assembled, used pump parts in there after session 1 and just take them out and use them (chilly!) for my second pump of the day. (This assumes you are pumping in your own office – if in a shared lactation room, get a really cute happy insulated lunch bag that you like so that you will be less likely to forget it.) Baby wipes will help when you spill milk on your clothes. I pumped until 15 months for #1 (don’t ask, it was crazy) and will be aiming to go to a year with this bebe; even when I stopped pumping I was still nursing the first one for another few months. The new little guy is extra hungry so he does get one formula bottle a day, but I still feel like it’s worth it to me to pump. But be aware that once your supply is well established, if pumping at work is the thing that just pushes you over the top with stress, you can try dialing it back, supplementing with formula during the day and still nursing at night/weekends, and don’t feel bad about it; as a working mom you are pulled in a thousand directions and you have to keep your sanity and health. Kellymom.com is the best site for advice on pumping as well as nursing – they have forums where there are moms who exclusively pump, for one reason or another. GL.

      3. The leaking and burning will subside fortunately, and the size likely too; I’m usually only really uncomfortable if several hours past a [loosely] scheduled pump session have passed. My biggest “trick” is to feed baby only on my less productive side after midnight or so the night before, so by 10 a.m. when I pump, my more productive side will yield 7 or 8 oz and I’ve got half the day’s needs in the bag (bottle) already. Obviously this isn’t the most comfortable way to go but staying ahead of demand requires near constant vigilance IME. Sigh.

        1. Thanks for the advice, ladies! And Anon 42, you are so correct. I never thought constant vigilance regarding the state and amount of milk in my fridge would so consume my daily thoughts…

    8. I have pumped for two kids, a year each while working full-time. What I usually wore was a nursing tank top and then a sweater or some type of jersey type shirt. Button downs are ok, but I did not really like having to mess with the buttons three times a day… I did not find an easy way to wear dresses, except for one nursing dress that I ordered online and was kind of casual looking.

    9. Maybe I’m weird, but I’m pumping now and I just wear my normal clothes (I was so happy to have my full wardrobe again after having an extremely limited maternity wardrobe). I’m fortunate that my firm has a private pumping room, and I’m the only one using it now, so I can get in various stages of undress without feeling self-conscious. I agree that sweaters are easier than button front shirts.

      I also found that the hands-free bustier thing didn’t work as well as just sticking the pump parts under the bottom of my bra and using the bra to hold them up while I worked, and I could never figure out what to do with my bra while using the bustier. Again, maybe I’m weird.

      1. What does one do with her bra when using a hands free pumping bustier? Would appreciate advice from those who have mastered this. Thx.

        1. If you are wearing a nursing bra, it stays on. Undo the clips, obviously. Then just put the bustier over top of it. If you are wearing a regular bra, you take it off completely or unhook it and pull it up under your armpits.

  8. I’m not exactly sure what my question is here, so bear with me: I need some advice or guidance on dealing with money issues with clients. I handle mainly family law, and most of my clients are individuals who are not wealthy. (I’m a fairly young associate, but in a small and laid back firm where I have pretty much full control over my cases.) As I’m sure that you know, divorce is outrageously expensive, and the people are generally in horribly difficult situations. So, end all, be all, I just feel awful about both asking them for money and (worse) asking them for more money (and there’s always more money needed).

    I went to a seminar the other day which coached us to ask for a large retainer up front, and then insist that it be replenished as soon as it gets below a certain amount. And to STOP WORK when it’s not replenished. This sounds great, in theory. But, in practice, I just haven’t been able to bring myself to tell people “No, I need several thousands of dollars, that I know that you don’t have, on top of the several thousands you’ve already given me, before I can file a motion that might let you see your kids again.” As the sort of person who stands in the grocery store aisle mentally calculating the one-tenth of a cent price per ounce difference on foods, the amount that legal services cost is something that I just can’t wrap my head around. I’m constantly having to tell myself not to get sucked in when they cry, and that I didn’t choose the person that they married/procreated with. But it still kills me.

    I desparately need to do 2 things: first, not worry so much about cost when I’m doing the work (I’m constantly fighting the urge to cut my hours without anyone telling me to, particularly if I don’t get a good result (and there are no good results in family law)) and second, to stop working when the money runs out. (And, to be fair to me, the much older and more experienced male partner that I mostly work with on these issues, while he talks a big game, isn’t very good about following through on cutting clients off, either.) Has anyone else dealt with this sort of thing? Help!

    1. wow, what a tough situation to be in. no advice, just sympathy. I’m sure I’d feel the same if I were in your position.

    2. I understand your problem, because I used to be in a similar practice.

      This is the nature of our legal system; you did not create this system. You are providing services to people with problems, but their problems are not your problems. You have to distance yourself and be a bit more ruthless – look out for your business here.

      You have to remember that their fees aren’t just paying your salary, but also your secretary’s salary, your office rent, supplies, etc. You have a business to run – you can’t let your heart get in the way.

      When you discount your fees, you are discounting yourself. You did not put yourself through the expense and stress and time of law school to bargain with these people.

      I know this is not concrete advice, just trying to give a pep talk. I know everyone talks about NGDGTCO here, but I haven’t read it. I’m thinking it would take the same position.

    3. Don’t cut your hours! You can always cut the amount of the bill (or ask your boss if you can give a discount). But the client (and your boss) needs to know just how much time you’ve spent on their case and how much it SHOULD have cost them, even if you then show a $1,000 discount or something (which you can tell them is for being a responsive client or something, not because they got a bad result. As you said yourself, there are few “good” results in family law).

      Unfortunately this is the toughest part of family law. Firms I’ve worked at typically have the biggest outstanding A/Rs from family law clients simply because the attorneys are dealing with similar situations to yours. You just have to remember to try and separate yourself because there are always more clients who are going to come in with terrible stories who need your help but can’t afford it. Being up front in the initial meeting (and in your retainer letter) that this is a long and expensive process and you will have to stop work when the retainer runs out is good CYA, but I agree it’s really hard to actually stop work.

    4. It comes down to setting client expectations from the outset. My state allows limited representation where you can help someone with just part of their case. I will usually have a conversation that goes like this:

      My hourly rate is x. This could take anywhere from y hours to z hours of my time. We can’t predict ahead of time how expensive it will be because that depends on how quickly this settles if at all, how many motions are filed, how many status conferences are held, etc. I explain that a 9 am hearing in this state means you may get heard at anytime between 9 and noon. If you are the last hearing, you are paying from the time I leave my office till the time I get back. Court scheduling alone can mean the difference between a $500 hearing and a $2500 hearing.

      I then tell them what my minimum retainer is. I explain the purpose of a retainer, that if there is money left over at the end of the case they get it back, and that if they deplete it, they have to replenish for me to continue working. I then explain limited representation. I say “if finances are an issue, you can hire me for as long as you can afford. If you can no longer afford to pay me, you can continue on your own but I will have to withdraw.” I also get all of this in writing in my engagement letter.

      As things start to get pricey, I check back in and say “how are you doing with the cost? Are you sure you want me to do xyz?” I don’t just do what is in my clients best interest and not communicate with them. I check in frequently and say “you could benefit from discovery in this case but it will cost so much to do it. If we don’t do it, it will effect your case in this way. Do you want me to do it?”

      It helps to be really blunt up front but I know it sucks.

      1. I also have the number for state pro bono and reduced fee legal services on hand and give that out to potential clients who I can tell up front can’t afford to hire me.

    5. I absolutely agree that you should get a large retainer and keep it evergreen. And that you should stop working if a bill is not timely paid. This is so not only because you need to be paid for your work, but also because statistically it is the unsophisticated clients who paid nothing to your firm who are most likely to sue for malpractice. Weed them out by getting and refreshing the retainer.

      Also, think of your bills as marketing material. First, if your time diary portions of your bill are detailed enough, your clients will be able to see that every time they call you, it costs them money. Then they can make a decision about when to call (serious legal issue) and when not to call (venting about ex). Second, if you feel you spent “too much” time on something, for heaven’s sake show all the time you spent on the bill, but then show a X% discount if you feel you must. That way, your client will see all the work s/he is getting and will appreciate its value.

    6. I am in the exact same boat. I have been doing this for 7 years. I do not have any secrets but can attest that if you do not get the money upfront, you will be chasing the clients for YEARS. I am going through a round of cases where I am suing my clients for fees. A couple years out of the divorce and your clients will not be any better position to pay you. Either get the money upfront, withdraw or accept that you are working for free. It really sucks. Personally, I do not enjoy family law enough to do it for free. If you think asking your client to replenish their retainer is unpleasant, try suing them for your fees (when you sue it suddenly is alleged you are a terrible lawyer). Remember it is a business-your clients get paid when they go to work and you should too.

      1. Be careful that suing your client doesn’t waive anything under your malpractice insurance. Often when you sue a client for fees they countersue for malpractice. Some carriers prohibit suing for fees or require their approval first.

    7. Does your firm have a policy on retainers/billing/payments? If so, can you just frame the issue as “this is what the firm requires” so clients can’t make it personal?

    8. I do the same thing, and it’s tough. I have my own practice, doing family and criminal law.

      You just have to be blunt. You can’t let your heart get in the way of your firm’s bills getting paid. For me, I have to remember that my student loan servicer wont’ take “my client has a really sad case” as an excuse for me not paying them. Neither will my mortgage servicer.

      And it’s hard to turn cases away when you can help them, but they can’t pay. But you have to. Up front. Money won’t magically appear later for your clients. But you have to make room on your schedule for clients who pay.

    9. I will be reading this thread closely – I am TERRIBLE about working for free, cutting my hours, sticking in cases I know I won’t get paid on… I do occasionally try to remember that regardless of where they are now, and how little cash they have, my clients generally also have car payments three times as high as mine because of lifestyle choices they’ve made along the way, and I have to eat too.

      1. Ugh so true. On one case I did for free as a favor to someone else in the firm, I learned that the “poor” client’s car payment was $500 per month!

  9. I always had to end up changing into a nursing bra before pumping, because I couldn’t wear that all day. So whatever shirts I wore had to be taken off, then change of bra, then pump and change everything back. No specific pumping shirts.

  10. More shopping help needed! I’m a midlevel in biglaw. I haven’t really gone to court much, but I hope to in the next few years. During a recent promo, I got a Tumi briefcase at 20% off its full price of *$600*. It’s the Tumi T-Pass Lago Medium Laptop brief, link to follow. I have been looking for a briefcase for a long time, and this one fit the bill, but I am still horrified at how expensive it is… and maybe partially horrified that I’m not more horrified at the price. I’m hoping that you ladies will either talk some sense into me and get me to return it by offering a good, less expensive alternative, or tell me it’s ok to keep it.

    Goal is a black bag. I need to be able to fit a 15″ laptop in a built-in sleeve or case (not going to throw it in loose, not going to carry around a separate sleeve), plus a 1-5″-2″ binder or equivalent of files. Plus space and organization of pens, chargers, etc. I want it to have both a shoulder strap and carry handles. Bonus points for not being super heavy. I want it to look like a grown-up women’s bag. Not a man bag – some of the briefcases I have looked at are very, very masculine and make me feel like the manufacturer expects that I be a man to own it, and didn’t think of the possibility that their potential customers might be women. And not some trendy ladies’ purse that I can turn into a business bag – I want a bag that looks like a business bag. Target price is under $500, preferably under $400. I figure if it’s over $500, I may as well keep the Tumi.

    On your mark… get set… go!

    2. I like the bag selection from Levenger. I love their messenger bag, which has two sections in it (one that would be perfect for your laptop) as well as a front section for organization.

      The Tumi bag you linked looks very much like how I would classify masculine. That said, if the bag fits your needs, keep it and consider it an investment. If used every work day for a year, that’s only $1.50/per wear. Good deal if you ask me ;)

    3. Just keep it. Your time is worth more than the money you’d save by starting over.

    4. FWIW, if your goal is to use that bag for court, it probably won’t be big enough. A bag that can fit a laptop and a couple inches of files will also be heavy. I alternate between a tote for status hearings and a rolling bag for trials and whenever I need to take work home.

    6. Check out the Jacques Georges site. I have and like the Alexis, but there are a number that would probably fit the bill. The price point on most is lower (though there is a knock-out ostrich bag for $3k if you feel like throwing your budget and good sense out the window) and I can attest that the quality is quite good. This is the first and only such bag I’ve owned, and I’ve never needed to shop for another one. That is a testament, but also means I can’t compare it to Tumi or other brands. For what it’s worth though, the Tumi you got looks highly functional and if it fits the bill best, the $100-200 you’d save on a different bag is probably money you’ll wish you had just spent.

      1. Jacques Georges!!! I love my Jacques Georges soooo much. It was my law school graduation present from my then fiancé now husband and its awesome (I picked it out.)

          1. Yes – it is Jack (not Jacques) Georges who makes the bags. I’m a big soccer fan and got confused. Sorry.

      2. Thanks D Train, TCFKAG, and mamabear. I’ve never heard of this brand, and their website isn’t super friendly, but the products look nice. Which bag models do you have and how much can fit in it? I have a 15″ laptop.

        1. I have the Milano Collection Madison Avenue Business Tote #3902 in Black Leather (I’m pretty sure — or else its really really similar). It can carry a Macbook Air 15 inch, a power charger, heels, some files, and miscellaneous other stuff without seeming irredeemably overstuffed. I’ve had it for two years now carrying it pretty much every day (and I’m not overly kind to bags) and it’s held up beautifully.

    8. If you want someone to talk you out of it – I never end up using a proper briefcase besides owning many. I usually end up w/ a redwell or box of docs and a purse. Even for status conferences, the files I need are usually too large for any briefcase/tote. I’d rather just carry the file.

      1. I have a nylon sorta-proper briefcase now (originally ~$150). It has served me well for years, but it’s now falling apart at the seams, so I’ve been looking to replace it. I’m not looking to carry everything I need for trial (like that’s ever going to happen anyway) in this briefcase – that’s what the communal wheeled briefcases and document carts are for. I take home my laptop and a 1-2″ binder of docs almost every night, so my briefcase is for daily use. I think most of the Jack Georges briefcases would be too small for my laptop and a binder, as cute as they are. I prefer not to carry anything in my hands. And for the record, I do not own a Longchamp bag.

  11. I need some advice on who is being unreasonable. My parent’s 40th wedding anniversary is Apr 29. I knew their anniversary was coming up, but when my mom mentioned it was #40 when I talked to her on Sunday I was surprised. She said they thought they’d go away for the weekend, but I was kind of thinking about what we could do as a family to celebrate. I’m sure we’ll have a big party for their 50th (knock on wood) in 10 years. I now 40 years is a big anniversary, but it isn’t traditionally a BIG anniversary in our family, kwim?

    My parents and my brothers all live in or around the same city that is about 3 hours away from the city that I live in with dh & my 3 school aged boys.

    I got a text from one of my brothers last night at 10:30 (after I was asleep) saying that he had talked to our other brother, and that they’d like to take mom & dad to the dinner theatre on Friday the 27th at 7pm to celebrate and we were invited if we’d like to come, but I had to let him know today or tomorrow so they could make the reservations. Apparently mom & dad have plans on the 28th, and we just don’t do things like going out to dinner or whatever on Sundays in my family – part of keeping the Sabbath Day holy.

    Anyway, of course dh & I would love to be there, but I’m a controller in an international company that has a very tight month end close, dh works full time, and is extremely against taking our boys out of school for any reason except illness. There is no way that we could be at the dinner theatre by a 7pm start. I can’t take the day off work because it’s too close to month end, dh has been called in for jury duty on the 20th (and who knows what will happen with that) and he is unlikely to get the day off work this late in the month anyway. People in his department often take their monthly flex day on the last Friday of the month, only a certain number can have the day off, and this is late getting his request in. Besides, he’s already got the 30th booked off because our boys have a PD day and no school. And, as I said, as a former teacher, dh is very against taking the boys out of school. We don’t fully agree on this, but it hasn’t been a major issue in our marriage yet.

    I’m hurt that my brothers didn’t consider dh & my circumstances when deciding on this. Since we can’t celebrate on their actual anniversary anyway, I don’t see an issue with celebrating Saturday on the weekend before or after. We’d for sure be able to make it to that.

    This isn’t the first time that we’ve felt like an afterthought in the rest of my family’s plans, and as there is some tension between dh & my parents that we are working hard at working through & being adults about, we are worried about being seen as the selfish bad guys by not being there. Overall, though, my family gets along great, however dh feels I ignore behavours of theirs that bother me just to keep the peace, and I agree with him on this.

    Do you think I would be out of line to suggest celebrating the weekend before or after on a Saturday? Or are we being selfish by not trying to drop everything to be part of plans that we weren’t at all consulted on? Thanks for making it this far!

    1. I would speak to my brother and suggest rescheduling the dinner theater for the following week. They haven’t even bought tickets yet, your parents have their own plans for very close to their anniversary “day”, you have legitimate work/jury concerns, and one week’s forbearance seems really reasonable.

      FWIW, my younger brother would take such a request as extremely rude and selfish-we are expected to drop everything and work around the schedule HE set! Nothing you can do about that, though….

    2. I don’t think you would be out to like to suggest moving the celebration. But it’s not really fair to expect him to anticipate the intricacies of your availability (as you put it, “consider your circumstances”) when planning the celebration. Most people have a hard time coordinating their own family’s schedule, let alone keeping track of the schedule of others. And it’s just plain hard to get a large group of adults together.

      1. I think you’re being a little unreasonable in expecting your brother to just know your “circumstances.” I’m also a little surprised that you did not think there would be somethign for the 40th anniversary. You say that it’s not traditionally a big anniversary for your family but then how many opportunities to celebrate such a long anniversary have there been? Just tell your brother that you can’t do it that day.

        1. It’s that they made all the plans and then asked if she could come, I think. Why not consult before making the plans, or during the planning process? It shouldn’t be a take-it-or-leave-it thing.

    3. I know there’s probably a lot of history here that is making this seem much harder, but to me the answer is simple, let them know that you absolutely cannot do this so late in the month, and that you absolutely 100% want to be there, so please just move the event from the 27th to the weekend before or after (after seems better).

      If they refuse to do so, they’re potentially being unreasonable, though they may have legitimate reasons why not. If you don’t tell them this, you’re being unreasonable because they can’t read your mind and don’t necessarily think about what your challenges are.

      Finally, if they refuse to change the date, just tell your parents that you can’t be there but would love to celebrate with them the weekend before or after when you, your dh and children can all come see them, even if the rest of your family is celebrating at another time.

      Be apologetic but firm, it’s not fair for them to expect you to drop everything, but it’s not fair for you to assume they know you would have to drop everything to be there.

      3. Well, this, but I do think it’s fair for the brothers to assume that a Friday night at 7 pm would be difficult for someone who lives 3 hours away and has school-aged kids. It doesn’t seem like a plan that’s optimized to get you to come. I would definitely ask if you can reschedule–seems like everybody wins if the whole family can be together.

    4. You would not be out of line at all to suggest an alternate date, with a brief explanation of why you can’t make it – the month-end close is reason enough. Tell them how you’d love to be there together on an alternate date, but if they can’t change the plans you send your love and best wishes. No reason to stress over this.

    5. Well there is a difference between celebrating two days before and a week before or after. The closer it is to the date, the more it feels like you are celebrating the date. Hopefully they will up for moving it though, I see no reason why they shouldn’t, but I do see why they chose the date closest to the anniversary. In defense of your brothers, those are a few small circumstances that add up to make it impossible for you to go. I kind of think you are being unreasonable to expect that your brothers will know about 1) the month end for you, 2) your husbands jury duty 3) your husbands companys flex scheduling policy, 4) the fact that the he has already taken off the 30th for your boys, and 5) that the boys cant take the day off school. You guys are just at an inflexible time of the year it sounds like, and of course the distance makes it harder. I think there is absolutely no harm in asking if it can be a Saturday, assuming the theater performs on sat too.

    6. I think a simple “We’d love to go, but have x, y, and z, going on around that time that make that weekend impossible. Are you able to move it to another weekend?” It may turn out that plans can be changed. Or maybe there’s a specific reason that weekend was chosen. Or maybe they’ll be brats and refuse to change the plans for any reason. My point is that you won’t know if you don’t ask. As others have said, you can’t expect them to read your mind or know what all your and DH’s plans are.

    7. It doesn’t seem like your brother expects you to be able to attend the show, he was just letting you know what their plans were on the off chance you could make it because he didn’t want to totally exclude you. Maybe it’s something that your parents and brothers have been wanting to do for a long time and the anniversary is a great excuse to go. If the show is only held on Friday nights, then they’d have to “exclude” you if they wanted to go.

      I can understand why you’d feel a little left out, but I wouldn’t take it very personally, I’m sure it’s not meant to be offensive. One of the cruddy things about living farther away is that you don’t always get to go to family events. Your point about it not being a super huge anniversary is spot on – they’re not excluding you from a big celebration, they’re commemorating a special occasion at a time that you can’t make it. Just schedule another time to congratulate your parents that works for your schedule.

      1. I meant to add that you definitely could ask them to reschedule, I just wouldn’t be terribly surprised if they decline. Good luck!

      2. Yes. I don’t know why your brother would know about things like your husband’s jury duty or that he’s already taken than Monday off.

        I would ask to reschedule. But if they can’t, thems just the breaks.

        I love across the country from my parents and 3 siblings. When I first moved, and I found out that they’d had “entire family” events without even telling me, I was really hurt. I make an effort to fly cross-country for many things. But now it’s just more common. I’m the one that lives far away. I’m excluded from things. That’s what happens when you move away from your family.

      3. I so agree with this! They are local, they have time, they have made plans, and invited you to join if you are able. They don’t need to make sure everyone can go to everything! Tell them you can’t, tell your parents you’d love to be there but can’t make it, make plans to see them another time, and arrange for the restaurant to pop a bottle of champagne on you when they arrive.

    8. I hate to be harsh, but this is a 40th anniversary, not just some random event that popped up with no warning. If it was something you’d truly been interested in celebrating, wouldn’t you have gotten with your brothers much farther ahead of time to pick a time that was more convenient? It sounds to me that your brothers decided they did want to do something and picked the time that your parents were available closest to the true anniversary date. I think it’s absolutely fine to say you are unavailable and do something with your parents at a later/earlier date without your brothers, but I think it’s too much to ask them to change their plans to accommodate you if this is the first you’ve expressed any interest in celebrating.

    9. I wouldn’t get too upset about it and certainly wouldn’t ask your brothers to change plans. My parents’ (and my) view on anniversaries is that the two people making the marriage work are the ones who should celebrate. I’m sure your parents love you and your siblings, but let them celebrate THEIR love and marriage in the way THEY want to. Send flowers, a nice note, and something your kids make for them. My folks always appreciate the sentiment more than anything else.

    10. It seems like there is definitely a lot of tension about equal treatment here BUT I want to flag one issue. It seems like when you chatted to your mom on the phone and realized it was her 40th, that would have been the natural time to ask about possible family plans and preferences. It also sounds like, from your account, that you made no steps to actually plan or work out an event until your brother informed you of the plans he had made. So it seems like you would be fine with no one in the family celebrating as long as you were not left out? Just want to make that explicit.

      For this situation, I would explain about the dates. See if they can change them, if they can’t then next time try to do things a bit differently. Speak up and plan things! Consult your brother first. Don’t just wait for something to object to.

  12. Hi everyone, sorry to change topic, but I need the insight of you clever ladies. Since graduating law school, I haven’t necessarily “practiced”. I worked in an in-house doing compliance and now have a fellowship. My question is, how long until it becomes impossible for me to ever have a traditional legal job or has that ship sailed? I am considering staying put where I am for another contract term, but am scared that another year will make me unemployable. Please help, you are my only hope ladies!

    1. How long since you graduated? Hard to answer without having facts to put in context! I’d say that anything from 2008-on can be excused due to the poor economy-lots of people have not been able to get “traditional” jobs, and so that may give you some flexibility.

    2. What type of fellowship are you doing? Is it related to the law at all?

      1. I graduated in 2009. The fellowship is legal and is a fantastic experience doing exactly what I would like to be doing. The problem is that I am concerned that without any other true legal experience, it is going to be difficult to find something else down the road.

        Thanks for replying, I appreciate! I feel like I need to be smart about my steps and could use advice.

        1. I wouldn’t worry. We just hired a 2008 law grad who hasn’t worked since graduating law school for various reasons. This recession has kind of given job candidates a get-out-of-jail-free card for gaps in resumes.

        2. In that case, I wouldn’t worry about staying on another year, if that is what you want to do. At least you are getting legal experience. And while I’m not sure I agree that you’ll get a free pass from *every* legal employer because of the recession, many will be understanding. In the meantime, I encourage you to get involved in professional organizations in your area and maybe even try to write something for a bar journal, etc. to help demonstrate your sincere interest in the law. Best of luck with everything!

          1. Thank you everyone for replying, this makes me feel a lot better! I have been worried about making the decision, but I know feel everything is much clearer.

  13. It’s beautiful out and the encouraging posts about running from a few days ago have inspired me to lace up my sneakers! What are your favorite semi-recent songs to run to? Obviously I need to spend ~an hour making a playlist for a 30 minute run!

    1. Check out jog.fm for ideas that match your pace.
      I like anything top 40, because it’s upbeat. Alternatively, 90s pop that I grew up with, which makes me smile.
      Audiobooks can also be fun.

    2. Hooray for running! Top 40 all the way. I get itchy to run every time I hear David Guetta and Nicki Minaj (my girrrrl)’s Turn Me On. Or anything up-tempo by Enrique.

      Also, Jay Z. Forever and always.

      (Bearing in mind that I don’t run with an iPod unless I’m on a treadmill, so I can’t actually vouch for the runnability of anything but the Black Album.)

    3. I like remarkably terrible pop music for working out. Carly Rae Jepsen “Call Me Maybe” is a good running song. I also like Britney’s later (post K-Fed/mental breakdown) songs, because they are way overproduced and up-tempo. I kind of hate working out, so there’s got to be a guilty pleasure involved to get me motivated!

      1. haha so funny you said that. Call Me Maybe is my new guilty pleasure dance around my room song this week.

    4. I run to a lot of Nicki Minaj, I also like “Paris, Ooh La LA”, Adele, and Fun “We Are Young”. I have the best & weirdest playlists-old school 80s, Run DMC, Kanye, Ludacris, Britney, you name it!

  14. TJ:
    A week ago, or I mentioned that I was getting frustrated constantly filling in for two other student coworkers at my part-time job. Well, I stood up for myself and told the both of them that I couldn’t cover their scheduled hours, and it felt so good!

    Due to crazy circumstances, (a local college has had so many closings due to bomb threats that some make-up classes are held on Saturdays) I’m still working almost 35 hours a week. But at least this is actually scheduled ahead of time, coming from my boss/boss’s boss, and I feel less stressed out.

        1. Completely crazy! I feel so bad for everyone involved (students, Pitt police, etc.)! I honestly can’t believe that they have not caught the person yet!

          Also, I’m glad to hear that you stood up for yourself and have a slightly more workable schedule, too! Hopefully they will catch this bastard soon, too, and you won’t have to work extra hours anymore.

  15. I am a lawyer with 20 years of experience out of work due to an office closure. I have done many intersting things in my career and consider my credentials to be fairly impressive. In my job search for positions in law firms, I seem to be hitting a wall as no one I have contacted is interested in a lawyer with my level of experience. Is this wall in my imagination, or is it real? Am I at the stage where I have to “dumb down” my resume in order to get a job? Has anyone had a similar experience and what worked?

    1. So I’m completely and utterly at the opposite end of the spectrum, but maybe you should be working through a recruiter? I know that partner or of counsel lateral process is much more complicated than the associate process because it involves portable billings and more what dollars you bring to the table then what skills you bring to the table. So I’m not sure that resumes and contacts are the same as the last time you applied for jobs really.

    2. I haven’t had it happen to me (because I’m an articling student…), and I don’t have any suggestions, but I’ve had at least three or four senior lawyers at my firm say explicitly to me that 5-10 yrs of experience is the sweet spot, where you get the most offers and doors opened….after that, you start to become really expensive, and (usually) quite specialized, so it gets harder. So, it’s not your imagination, from what I’ve been told.

    3. It’s not your imagination. My mom was in a slightly different situation as she had actually taken 10 years “off” from mid-sized, prestigious, regional law, during those 10 years she was “only” counsel to a non-profit organization and practicing education law for very specialized clients and managing the finances at my dad’s firm. But she didn’t have a firm, she didn’t have an office, etc… When she decided she wanted to get back into a more formal environment…she hit a cliff. Not even a wall, a complete cliff.

      She ended up doing writs and appeals and basically fought and clawed her way into a contract position, after which she began marketing herself more as an independent attorney and etc…now she is pretty happy with what she does and is basically an independent contractor doing appeals and mediation for several different types of law/firms but she really regrets the effect of the 10 years on her career.

      Maybe you could volunteer with the Courts? I know locally our courts are always trying to get attorneys to sit in as judge for a (free) day. Start going to all the local bar association things, contact former opposing counsel (that you can stand) I don’t really have much advice other than network network network after that, you’re going to find your next job through a recruiter, as TCFKAG mentioned or through people you know. It’s not likely you’ll find a position by “cold resume-ing” the firms and I don’t think I’ve ever seen an ad for a position for an attorney with 20 years experience. It’s usually 3-5 years, 6-8 years, that’s it.

      Have you looked into becoming an ALJ or similar? I work in admin law and some of the ALJs and more particularly the arbitrators and mediators I work with seem to have an ideal life. (For me anyway.)

    4. I think they would be very interested if you had business. But without a book, it is hard to basically come in as a service partner, or it’s equivalent.

      Can you share a little more about your background and what you would like to be doing?

      1. I have most recently been involved in complex litigation and managing a staff of attorneys, paralegals, and working with investigators and experts. I like complex matters and easily get bored with routine work. I have also written a significant number of appellate briefs. I like to work with other attorneys as part of a team. I like to draw on and be challenged by the strengths of others. I like appellate work. I like to work as part of a trial team. I would like to continue to work on big, complicated cases.

        1. I agree with appealing lawyer that it may be difficult for you, given your senior level experience, to find something without your own book of business. Have you reached out to your professional contacts for possible trial or appellate counsel gigs?

        3. I would be in your same boat except that I hitched myself to a rainmaker. I have seen the error of my ways though and am now working on building my own book.

          I think it will be impossible for you to get a job through blind resume submissions or even a headhunter. You have to work your contacts and explain what you want to do and see if someone has a need. Otherwise, you are just competing with a ton of senior associates who are in line to make partner and junior partners who an do exactly what you can do.

          I would consider scratching big law and aiming either for a litigation or appellate boutique or a regional firm looking to expand into more complex work and would appreciate someone with your pedigree.

          Make a list of everyone you have worked with, both at your firm and inside counsel and opposing counsel and cocounsel and start meeting folks for coffee or lunch. I was amazed at how receptive and kind people were. If you are good at what you do, people will want to try to help you.

          I am sorry you are going throug this. Good luck and please keep us updated.

    5. I have had essentially this exact experience. I had been practicing 18 years, had a firm close, went to another firm which turned out to be a disaster, quit and spent 6 months looking for a new job. I was able to find one as “Of Counsel” at a big firm without a book of business. It took a while and I relied heavily on word of mouth to get my name out there since senior positions are generally not advertised.

      One key – as a 20 year with no book of business, you are honestly not worth more than a 10 year unless you bill a lot. Your pay will likely reflect that. Also, be prepared for the fact that there will be partners making more money and giving you assignments who are less experienced than you and sometimes they feel the need to play power games to establish their superiority. Not fun – but on the other hand I bill 1900 per year, not 2300 so I’ll live with it.

      1. Good point about adjusting your salary expectations. If you were paid basically as a partner in the $400k o $600k range, I would be expecting more in the $300k range or even less.

    6. I was in a similar position last year–laid off after 12 years of complex litigation experience with no clients of my own. I have found it impossible to even get my foot in the door without a book of business. I have plenty of great experience and references. I am AV rated. I had decent grades in law school. I was on law review. Yada, Yada, Yada. No recruiter would touch me. After about six months of unemployment, I found a job–I now work in contracts/sourcing for a large company for less money because it pays the bills. I would love to go back to a law firm, but I really don’t think that will ever happen now.

  16. Ugh. Hope someone will see this this late.

    Yesterday my alumni association put on an event for alums in my area which featured a very prominent alumna as the main speaker. The prominent alum happens to head up a company I am very interested in working at one day so I was especially excited.

    Unfortunately, I’ve been fairly ill the past week or so and in hindsight, really should have skipped the lecture. But I wanted to hear it, I am not contagious anymore, and I figured I would go and just absorb, smile and say hi and hopefully catch a quick minute with the speaker, even if my head was a bit too fuzzy to really network. Which would have been fine EXCEPT I passed out. Yep. In the middle of her speech.

    For me, fainting is not incredibly rare (whenever I am sick, I am prone to passing out) but obviously embarrassing in a social situation, even more embarrassing when it’s in the middle of a lecture and someone calls 911 (seriously).

    So anyway. I’m fine. Except for incredibly humiliated. And I’m debating sending the woman who spoke a note on LinkedIn (I don’t have an email for her) apologizing for interrupting her lecture and the night. Do you think that’s worth doing or do you think it just brands me further as Crazy Fainting Girl Who Never Is Going to Work At Her Company?

    1. Oh gosh, so sorry this happened! We live, we make mistakes, we learn!

      Well, take this with a grain of salt as I have never fainted, but I would absolutely absolutely send the woman a note on Linked In apologizing and explaining what happened and that you just had really wanted to attend her seminar. I think either way you’re a little bit hosed in regards to working for her in the near future, but a note turns you from Fainting Girl Who Interrupted my Speech into Fainting Girl Who Interrupted my Speech but at Least Had the Class to Apologize.

      I also wouldn’t give her too much information, just so sorry that happened, did not mean to interrupt, loved the parts of the speech I got to hear! :-) (Maybe not that last part…)

      1. Agreed. I would send the note – maybe this will even be your opportunity to start a relationship with her.

        And while I am very sorry this happened to you, these things do happen. I was in court once and an attorney fainted and then started convulsing. We’re all human. Everyone was very understanding and sympathetic.

    2. I would disagree with CA Atty on this. Depending on how bit the event was and how big your market is (have you ever met this person before?) — its likely that the person doesn’t even know who fainted during her talk (because presumably everyone sort of stood up around you as soon as you passed out). Pointing it out now would probably just make it even more awkward. Next time you see her, if she does somehow miraculously remember, I’d lightly apologize and say you hope you didn’t steal her thunder TOO much!

      But honestly, I think if she doesn’t know you well at all, if you sent this note you’ll go from possibly the girl she doesn’t know who fainted to the girl she definitely knows fainted who thought she cared so much that she wrote an apology note! I’d let it go. You’re the one who fainted after all!

      2. That’s a good point I hadn’t thought of. So, I guess you would know better, was it a big deal or barely a blip? Did it actually interrupt the talk or did she just keep talking while you were quietly dealt with?

        I’ve been on stage before and you can’t tell what is going on in the audience, half the place could faint and you wouldn’t know until the lights come down. I was picturing something a bit more intimate, like a medium sized hotel conference room where the speaker would probably stop while people are calling 911 and the hotel people all come bustling in with their safety protocols, etc…

        So I guess I would lean more towards KK and Bluejay, probably not necessary to apologize, but not inappropriate either.

        Another question is, how do YOU feel? Do you feel like you’re going to have to hide in a hole the next time your paths cross?

        1. Much closer to a small hotel conference room, speech itself stopped (and presumably restarted but I was moved out into the lobby area where I spoke with the paramedics). However, she didn’t know me from Eve, we had never met before and it didn’t occur to me but it’s possible she wouldn’t recognize me if she saw me again.

          I would be embarrassed if I saw her again, and I do feel bad for interrupting her speech for what was (luckily) a minor medical issue. But I don’t want to go overboard (Crazy Fainting Girl is So Crazy that she Apologizes for Fainting…)

          1. If she doesn’t know you (and likely didn’t see who you were) the chances of her recognizing you at some future date in an interview are slim to none. But if you send her an e-mail apologizing, you will be permanently identified to her as “the girl who faints” — and you’ll have raised the possibility in her mind that you have some sort of serious medical condition that would make you a liability.

            So…I understand you’re embarrassed. But I think sending an e-mail in this situation could only make it worse.

    3. I think sending her a note is a great idea, and it’s your best chance to make a connection out of this thing. Definitely apologize, but don’t go over the top with being apologetic- unless you told me you had fainted before, I would not ever expect you to be able to foresee something like that happening. Keep it short and a bit light-hearted (make some kind of joke about stealing the show or something like that) and indicate that you hope to have the opportunity to hear her speak again in the future. I think I would be a little charmed to get an email like this and I don’t think it will ruin your chances of future employment at all. In fact, it sort of gives you memorable hook.

    4. I don’t think this is that awkward, really. You FAINTED. I’m sure everyone is just glad that you’re ok. I don’t think it’s necessary to reach out to anyone to apologize, but if you really want to make contact with the speaker, I don’t think it’s inappropriate either. But I agree with TCFKAG that she probably doesn’t even know who fainted.

    5. This happened to me. Seriously. I was at a HUGE event with literally hundreds of people (legal and not) in attendance, seated with the partners at a firm where I wanted to work. The table was right in front of the stage. I passed out, there was commotion (including the speaker announcing that I needed a doctor). It was basically the most embarrassing moment of my life. But, no one except the people at my table knew it was me who fainted. I’ve told this story to people who were at the lunch, and they were like, “OMG! I was there! That was you? I’m glad it’s all okay.”

      Unless the speaker knew you previously, there is almost no way she is going to know who you are if you see her later on. I agree with the others who say not to send a note unless you want to use this as a way to contact her and develop some sort of relationship.

    6. Don’t have any advice for this particular situation, but I am expressing support and solidarity as a fellow not-terribly-infrequent-fainter! I’ve fainted at conferences before, on a hiking trip, and once in high school while I was singing in a choir competition! You are not the only one.

    7. You know, it might work to send her a note, just as a fellow alumna, telling her you enjoyed her talk. You could just leave out the part where you fainted. I doubt she would remember that it was you.

      I also pass out. The most embarrassing is when it happens on flights. I’ve had flight attendants ask me if they needed to make an emergency landing. No, I’ll know I’ll be ok. But when they give you oxygen… man, that’s nice. :)

      1. I agree with this advice. Just say you enjoyed the talk etc etc. No need to call attention to what happened

    8. Why not call her (if you can’t find her phone, LinkedIn-mail her) and tell her how much you enjoyed her speech and invite her out for coffee. Don’t say anything about the fainting. She won’t know it’s you by name/phone voice. If she recognizes you in person, she may or may not say anything. If she doesn’t, I wouldn’t. She may not know you are the one. Or, she may know you are the one but be more interested in talking to you about the topic of the speech and/or want to wait until she knows you better to ask (that would be the proper thing to do as per Letitia Baldridge, I’m sure). If and when it does come up, say something simple like, “I was so sorry both to interrupt your presentation and to miss part of your presentation. I hope you can forgive me.” Period.

  17. Late night update (in case anyone’s still reading):
    I am watching an old episode of The West Wing, and C.J. is wearing this lovely mauve/dusty rose suit. She is officially my style icon.

    1. I love WW, and CJ. I’m going to do a search and see if I can get some old eps on my DVR :-)

    2. Favorite CJ scene: when she quizzes the fashion editor in front of the entire press corps about how many members of Congress it takes to do X and Y and the fashion editor doesn’t know.

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