Suit of the Week: L.K.Bennett

145 Comments

1. Help – how do I cardigan? For the last [very long] number of years I’ve been using straight, hip-length cardigans as my go-to layer over a blouse etc. They really don’t feel current anymore, but I’m not sure what to swap them with. I need something that isn’t too bulky, so it still looks okay over a loose blouse or wide legged pants, and is appropriate for a business casual/medium casual office. Blazers (or other very structured jackets) are too formal for my office.

   I’m not in the US, so looking for style advice rather than specific products. Note: I’m very very lucky and live in a place with no community covid, so there are no issues with being in the office.

   1. Hmm, now I am wondering if my straight boyfriend style cardigans are not cool anymore…

      FWIW, I’ve been wearing sweater jackets for WFH (JCrew Factory) and they feel casual enough while still being more dressed up than I would be just being home at home.

   2. Honestly, I stopped wearing cardigans. I just came to the conclusion that they were too frumpy on me and out of style. Now I stick with buying tops I can wear on their own or an unstructured, collarless blazer if I want a layer over a blouse. I switched to wearing a lot of crew-neck cashmere sweaters rather than top + cardigan.

      1. Same – I ended up getting rid of most of my waist/hip length cardigans during COVID because they were either frumpy and shapeless, or overly sorority/country club style. I have a small collection of collarless blazers that I will use for dressing up, and a couple open long swingy sweaters that are comfortable & warm & I don’t care if they’re fashionable.

   3. Knit blazers, cardigans in different shapes. Is the extra layer for warmth? If not, you don’t necessarily need anything.

   4. I’ve switched to wearing a vest or sweater over my blouses because open cardigans aren’t flattering on me. Something like the JCrew Tippi (in a dark color – the light ones are sheer) works well particularly over thin or silky blouses.

   5. I own many cover up type cardigans that are CYA to knee length and find these to be the most versatile for work or weekend use. They look polished with jeans and a T or a nice blouse and pants/skirt. These are classic wardrobe items in my opinion. White House Black Market recently had a ton of these on sale.

   6. Oversize deep V would be the current cardican shape that would work for you, I think. Crotch lenght. One color, or a pattern like Argyle.

      Think grandpa cardigan. :)

   7. I’m cardigan for life so take this with a grain of salt. I think big chunky soft looking cardigans can look frumpy and almost pajama like. If you wear a fine merino wool cardigan that fits you and isn’t oversized, and is about hip to low hip length (so not the preppy twinset length) then I think it’s a classic look. It depends on how you feel about classic dressing.

      I went heavily into the duster look for a while but I think those look pretty terrible now unless it’s like a St John style matching sheath dress and cardigan that are close to the same length, which I find very elegant and timeless. But a duster cardigan with skinny jeans and boots, not so much.

      1. Typing that made me google St John and OMG, look at this dress. I LOVE it.

         https://www.bloomingdales.com/shop/product/st.-john-diamond-knit-dress?ID=3840204&CategoryID=2910

   8. I wear the open shawl type cardigans that are just hip length- they look nice on me, aren’t quite as boxy as the typical cardigans, and they fall better on me than cardigans with buttons. In terms of look, I’m thinking the Old Navy short shawl-collar open front cardigan- https://oldnavy.gap.com/webcontent/0018/073/111/cn18073111.jpg

      1. I agree with Sloan. I think that Cardigan’s are making a big come back b/c Taylor Swift is now wearing them and she is so pretty and so smart and so successful that none of us can even believe she is so well packaged and now wearing Cardigan’s!

         Dad says I should use Taylor Swift as a role model, but she is much younger then I am so I am not sure how I can look up to some one younger, even tho she makes more money then I do.

2. Is it appropriate to call a member of Congress from another state to express support for them? I don’t call to complain because I figure they don’t care, I call my own representatives for that, but I wonder if sending good thoughts is different? I’m thinking about calling Rep. Cheney’s office to thank her for standing up for the country against Trump. I’m not a Republican and I don’t live in Wyoming.

   1. I would make it an email or a postcard, not a call, so they can still see the good wishes, but not tie up the phone lines for a non-constituent.

   2. Can’t hurt!

      1. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion she is trying to position herself for 2024 so it won’t go unappreciated.

   3. My instinct would be to not tie up the phone lines for the actual constituents of Wyoming and send a letter instead.

      1. Perhaps things have changed since my time working in a congress persons office but staff still has to log every interaction and there are multiple phone lines. Calls were much much much easier/faster to log

      2. Remember all those “white powder” scares in the 2000s? Congress has been irradiating the mail ever since, so even in good times, it takes a month to get postal mail to Congress.

         And speaking as a former staffer, there’s nothing they can really do with “good thoughts,” and definitely nothing they can do with a non-constituent, and they’re probably overwhelmed, but if you just wanted to thank the staffers for being patient and telling them you appreciate their boss, a phone call would probably be the way to go.

         1. +1. Non-constituent correspondence is pretty much ignored.

            1. Yep, I would say thank you, hang up, and do nothing. Signed, another former staffer.

      3. Many congress-people have contact forms on websites. Maybe that’s a good intermediate option.

         1. Or maybe a tweet? That would reach a staffer first and make them feel appreciated, to Anon@2:36’s point.

   4. Definitely thank the staffers, they’re dealing with a lot and its always nice to hear!

   5. Sure, I think so. I am a Chicago democrat and called Rep. Meijer’s office the day of his impeachment vote to say I am in no way a Republican and I do not live in his district, but I think voting to impeach was the right thing to do and took courage as the only freshman to do so and I think he deserves to hear that. Every time I’ve heard him speak he’s been well reasoned — even though I think anyone who voted for Trump in the general or at anytime is a complete dope, but that’s not the point. The staffer was polite and said she appreciated hearing that and would log it for the Congressman. I think non-trumper / non-q conspiracy Republicans need to be normalized again and maybe that takes some commendation from people when they do the right thing.

3. I bought the green Mille blouse featured here a few weeks ago. It was much more expensive than my typical budget for a shirt/blouse but I had been looking high and low for a green shirt without success so I bit the bullet.
   Do Not Recommend unless you’re willing to dry clean it. The tag says dry clean but it’s a cotton blend shirt, so I figure I could handwash it. Nope. Dye bleeding was very bad. Third change of water was as dark as the first. The day that water runs clear is when the shirt returns to white. So sad, as it was expensive. On with my search for a green blouse.

   1. Soak it in very salty water, then try another hand wash. That should set the dye. (What we used to do with all new purchases, whole cloth or new clothes.)

4. What are your favorite crepe fillings, either savory or sweet? I’m really craving crepes and I think I’ll make some for dinner.

   1. Strawberries soaked in Grand Marnier or strawberries + Nutella.

   2. standard is always good – ham and cheese for the kids, spinach, tomato, cheese for me. Sometimes i had an egg in it, or canned tuna.
      for sweet, nutella and banana is awesome, but I also like it the way my grandpa used to eat it- a bit of butter, a bit of sugar, and quite a bit of brandy, let is simmer until the alcohol evaporates, delicious!

   3. I love cinnamon roll-inspired crepes. Cream cheese + a cinnamon/butter sauce – so good!

   4. Lemon juice, sugar, and lightly cooked blueberries. Delicious even though I don’t have much of a sweet tooth.

   5. Mushrooms, sautéed. If you want them to be creamy, you can add some sour cream or creme fraiche to the pan at the end.

      My mom used to do ground meat, sautéed with onions or a shallot, sometimes, or chicken cooked with mushrooms as above.

      I also love smoked salmon and dill. A bit of lemon zest if I am feeling fancy.

   6. Feta, mushrooms, and artichoke hearts

   7. Mushrooms in butter with garlic and fresh parsley
      Peanut butter and banana
      Sour cream (or plain yougurt) and strawberries (or other berry)
      Sour cream and blueberry jam
      Sour cream and fish roe (like blinis)
      Bacon and maple syrup

      Or, even better, potato pancakes, with grated potato and onion in the batter itself.

   8. Creamed spinach

   9. Ham and swiss. Classic because it’s honestly hard to beat. We just get the really thin lunchmeat ham for this. It’s too hard to slice a real ham that thinly.

      1. Oh, and if you want to be fancy use some fresh chives or a little bit of fresh dill, or maybe both.

   10. ricotta with sugar makes a sweet filling you can sweeten to taste and gives the creaminess! Otherwise, sometimes it’s just maple syrup and feeling like pancakes but not gross and heavy lol

5. What would you do? I am a 2019 law school grad. I clerked last year at the trial court level (which switched to work from home and limited/online calendars due to covid) and this year at a state supreme court (also mostly work from home due to covid). I have an offer to stay at the supreme court for another term with my current judge. I also received an offer to work at a firm. The firm is more money (about $50k more) but also a lot more work. My current clerkship is very regular hours. I have never had to stay late or come in early.
   I am torn at not getting a full clerkship experience and also moving on after two years of clerking to a real firm job. Any advise from the wise hive would be appreciated.

   1. What do you want to do ultimately? Is the goal at the end of your clerkship to go to a firm and the only hesitation is that you won’t have gotten a full Chambers experience and will be starting at a firm while remote? Or do you not want to work firm hours altogether and hesitate about making the switch to private practice if you could maybe do something else, whether in the court system or otherwise?

      1. My end goal is to go to a firm, which is why I was excited to get the offer and having a hard time deciding. I do love the flexibility of clerking currently because a close family member has some heath issues so it is nice for me to be able to leave early to attend appointments etc. Its a consideration that I have. Flexibility and less money and less challenging work vs. more money and less flexibility/more work but work that i am more excited to do.

         1. Interesting that you say clerk work is less challenging. My experience was that clerking required fewer hours but more challenging legal work, and being a baby associate involved much more time, but much less legal analysis. I was excited to start at the firm, but it was a fast-paced grind, and missed law clerk work almost immediately.

            Obviously I’m on team clerk-for-another-year.

   2. Law firms will still be there after another year, I’d stay in the clerkship.

   3. If you can live on the lower salary for another year, I would stick with the clerkship one more year. I would not want to start at a firm right now, personally, and you will certainly have opportunities at the end of the clerkship. To me, there is no rush to get into a firm for experience reasons, even if that is ultimately what you want to do. And you will continue learning things and making connections from clerking for another year that you can’t later get at the firm.

   4. I would stay another year. Firms will still be there then, and it will be much easier to make the adjustment without the hassles of work from home.

   5. Agree with the posters that said you should stay in your clerkship for another year. In my area, it is pretty normal for someone to stay in a clerkship for two years. It is a really difficult time to start at a firm– you will not get the same mentoring you normally would with everyone remote. You also will not be able to observe a lot of things like hearings/depositions that you normally would do as an entry-level associate.

      1. I am on team “keep clerking” and I posted elsewhere, but in my jurisdiction, we are still having depositions, hearings, court conferences, and mediations. Most (though not all) are occurring remotely, but they are definitely happening.

         1. Agree – I have had more opportunities to attend stuff in this remote environment than in person where it’s harder to justify bringing an associate across the country for a hearing or mediation

   6. For a different perspective, clerking for three years is considered very desirable by some firms but undesirable by others – there can be a perception that people who clerk for a long time just want to write briefs and don’t want to do the tedious aspects of litigation that make up most of the job like discovery, negotiating with opposing counsel, dealing with settlement, etc. I have also seen people struggle coming into a firm when they feel like an experienced attorney but don’t actually know how to do most of what is asked of them (like manage a doc review or write interrogatory responses). I think starting a firm job in this duly remote environment is challenging so that may counsel towards staying another year but If you really like this firm and the people are good mentors I would think seriously about getting yourself in the door.

      1. I agree but I think firms will be more understanding of doing a longer clerkship through the pandemic.

         1. I also think it is relevant that the current appellate clerkship has only been one year and she spent the first year at the trial court.

      2. Another (related) thing: sometimes firms “credit” you years of seniority based on the number of years you spent clerking. This sounds great in theory – more money! Shorter partnership track! – but in practice, it also steepens your learning curve, and shortens your runway. Clerking and practice aren’t that similar, as others have noted, and you really, really don’t want to be starting as a third-year associate.

         For what it’s worth, I clerked for 2 years to wait out the 2008-12 recession. It worked out for me. I would not have done a third year of clerking, even though I liked it.

   7. I’d go with the firm now, just because there is no guarantee there will be a job offer a year from now, and a recession is likely coming. Contrary to popular belief, it is not always super easy to get a job after clerkships.

      1. This is a matter of risk tolerance which is personal, but if you’re afraid of the recession hitting law firms (we’re definitely already in a recession, that’s not news), if you join now you’re probably going to be the first to go if there are layoffs.

   8. My vote is keep clerking. Assimilating into firm life can be tricky and as a new lawyer, the best way to learn how to practice is through some level of mentoring from more senior attorneys and learning firm life from your peers. Many firms are at least partially (and some almost fully) remote right now, so the ability to knock on doors with a question or have lunch with a peer is more limited right now. It can be isolating practicing law outside of the normal office setting, and I imagine that would be particularly true as a new attorney without established relationships within the firm. Another concern I would have is job security as the newest attorney at a firm, depending on the area of law and how hard COVID has hit the firm. Waiting out the pandemic somewhere predictable and stable like as a clerk would make the most sense to me right now.

6. Talk to me about finding a pretty venue for a small wedding. FH and I would like to get married this spring or summer. Immediate family only, which will be ~10 people. We’d like enough space to allow different households to socially distance, which means we can’t do it at home or a relative’s house. We’re thinking of renting an Airbnb, but I’m concerned about the potential for another round of shutdowns and travel restrictions. Maybe I should just buy a bigger house /s

   1. Open-air chapel + outdoor meal afterwards. Check state parks for a chapel.

   2. What part of the country?

      1. Philly. We have family coming from MD (beaches) and OH, both driving not flying. The MD folks won’t drive more than 2-3 hours (OH folks are more flexible but I want to be fair to them), so I’d like to stay closer to the city/coast rather than, like, central PA or Poconos.

         1. Surprised you didn’t mention Philly upfront! In any case, what about Longwood Gardens — do they have anything that might fit?

            1. I didn’t mention location because I know the traditional venues, I’ve been to dozens of weddings in the area. I haven’t been to any 10 person weddings though so I’m a little lost!

               I’m a Longwood member but their private events are prohibitively expensive. You can’t even take your wedding photos there for free.

         2. when airbnbs say they don’t allow parties i dont think they mean literally 10 people. i know someone who was supposed to have a wedding and instead rented an airbnb to do the wedding for just immediate family. however, if that is a concern, philly has gorgeous wedding venues. is there a budget? where will these people stay? i am also not sure of the current rules in Philly for dining and such, but Barbuzzo has a private event space. Hill-Physick House or Powel House & Garden. You can rent out Magic Garden, though I don’t know what you do if it rains. What do you want this wedding to look like? Just a ceremony? A meal? Dancing?

         3. Terrain at Styler’s, Glen Mills, by the Anthropologie crew. Beautiful spaces if you’re into rustic, botanic, etc. 40 mins from Philly. They may have a 15 person minimum. Look up Terrain Events…virtual tour.

            Parque at Ridley Creek State Park.

            A few unique options are mentioned here: https://www.phillyinlove.com/philadelphia-wedding-venues/

         4. Try Life’s Patina – it’s a small, historic farm in the suburbs and the owner runs fancy somewhat Anthropologie-esque barn sales and hosts small events. The owner is very nice and I think has held at least one tiny Covid-era wedding. It’s a pretty setting for a wedding. https://lifespatina.com/

            You could try the Wayne Art Gallery if that is more your speed. Most restaurants would also probably work with you – I know someone who rented out a coffee shop for her reception.

            1. I should have posted this link: https://lifespatina.com/willowbrook-farm-venue-and-rentals/

         5. This was ages ago, but we stayed at Faunbrook Bed and Breakfast in the Brandywine area and had a lovely time- they also do weddings, though not sure what they are doing in COVID times.

         6. Independence Mall gardens. A friend is getting married at one (Magnolia i think?) this spring. Costs $50 and max30 people I think. I’d do the 18th century garden, it’s beautiful and I used to pass it on my commute every day (I miss my commute!)

            Or the azalea garden?

   3. I would look for a state park. I attended a wonderful wedding BC in a very pretty state park in CA.

   4. Where are you and the guests located? That would be the biggest factor, especially if you can’t push it closer to fall. I’m Chicago area—if this were me, I’d be looking at maybe the botanic garden or maybe on top of a building or on a boat—something where it is all outdoors.

      1. Fall is my favorite season! We’re looking to get this done quickly though. We’re 40 and TTC. I’d rather not be showing in my wedding pics (fingers crossed!).

         1. This isn’t what you asked but… if you’re interested in more than 1 child you might consider IVF, even if you’re able to conceive naturally now. If you get more than 1 embryo you can freeze them and have them on hand. I had a kid at 40 but we weren’t able to have a second child.

   5. I got married in a park with a beautiful bandstand/gazebo type structure. It was on a weekday afternoon so the park was mostly quiet and we had a beautiful day.

   6. Most Airbnbs prohibit events, so I would not rent one of those unless you’re sure that events are ok with the host. Are there any botanical gardens near you? Or a park? I think that is going to be your best options.

      1. Or what about a sculpture garden or art gallery with a courtyard?

         1. Like this for example? (I really miss wedding planning! Lol.) https://www.morrisarboretum.org/rentals_weddings.shtml

      2. Eh I don’t think a 10 person thing is what they mean when they prohibit “events” – they don’t want people having big parties that trash the place. If the host would allow 10 people to stay there for a family vacation then I don’t see why OP shouldn’t be able to have her wedding there.

         1. I think it’s right to be cautious. All 10 of you staying at an Airbnb that hosts 10 – unlikely to be an issue. A 2BR Airbnb with a pretty yard and you hosting a party there? Not usually OK without permission.

         2. Nope, I’m pretty sure when they prohibit events they mean they prohibit events.

            1. yes. If this is your wedding, you don’t want to try to sneak it in and then have the owner or manager of the property show up midway through and shut it down. Definitely be up front about what your intentions are, and if you say 10 people, really keep it to 10 people.

   7. There is a tiny jewel of a park on Chestnut between 17th and 18th that closes for private events. Not sure what happens if it rains, though.

      Many Airbnb’s don’t allow parties or events so tread carefully.

   8. Botanic gardens?
      My friends got married at Brookside Gardens in MD a few years ago for a small wedding (less than 40 people) and it was really pretty.

      Or a historic manor with outside gardens/gazebo/pavilion?

   9. My wedding was at a state park with a beautiful stone amphitheater that fit 75. It cost under $100 to reserve, and after the ceremony, we had a reception under a covered pavilion. There were private bathrooms there too. I bought some nice hand soap and real towels to make the bathrooms nicer LOL

   10. two of my cousins in philly got married at the Duke Sculpture Garden at the Dixon Mansion. THere might also be rentals or something in fairmount park.

   11. Thanks for all the ideas so far, everyone, this is great. A question about the more traditional venues – a lot of them have a rental fee that’s thousands of dollars and doesn’t include food or drink. Should I assume this fee is the same even for a very small wedding? Is it reasonable to ask for a reduction, and if so, what kind of reduction could I expect?

       For example, I love Terrain but it has an $8k rental fee. That’s before food and drinks. I’m not going to pay $8k to host 10 people for a couple hours. In normal times I would do like a restaurant but alas….

       1. You could ask if there is any type of covid pricing or information or find out if they offer lower rates on a weekday (if your guests can make it)… though I’d think that reserving the space is reserving the space no matter the guest count so your only shot is if they are hurting during covid and taking a discount to get any money in at all, not because your number of guests changes the price.

       2. I’d suggest looking at a bed and breakfast or an outdoor restaurant in a place like New Hope!

7. Any recommendations for on-line non-diamond earrings that aren’t cheap? I want something with 18k gold posts that looks high-quality for everyday wear—diamond looking but without the awful backstory and lower cost. I don’t mind paying a couple grand. It seems like everything is costume jewelry though.

   1. Moissainite?

      1. Yes! Something like that. Any recommendations on where to purchase?

         1. Moissanite Co

   2. Lab diamonds. I’m also thinking white sapphire but I don’t know if they have a similarly awful backstory.

      If you’re ok with a little color I think high quality pale aquamarine is so, so beautiful.

      1. Sapphires can be made in a lab too!

         1. I love lab sapphires. Its a great way to get the deep blue ones I really love.

      2. Not the OP, but I’m having trouble with lab gem stones. I realise it’s an emotional response, but I can’t help feeling that the lab stone is, I don’t know, wrong somehow. I guess, fake and too perfect.

         I absolutely do not condone the horrid diamond backstory, but I guess I would rather have a low quality natural gemstone than a perfect lab stone. A beautiful vintage stone (emerald or pink tourmaline, for example) would be my preferred splurge.

         I suppose my question how do I get over the emotional response and idea that a lab stone is somehow fake?

         1. Maybe don’t? If that is how you feel, go for your beautiful vintage stones and leave the lab ones to someone else? This does not feel like a problem to me–it is just a matter of taste/preference.

            1. Thank you. That is helpful. I have felt sort of, I guess – immoral? – not wanting a lab emerald. A matter of taste/preference is easier to process than a moral failing. :)

         2. In terms of getting over your emotional response to lab stones being fake, I guess think about how your diamond got to you (even vintage) vs how your lab stone got to you. Given that a lab stone is chemically identical to a real stone, I think you can bridge the gap. It’s not the same to me as accepting cubic zirconia as a substitute for a diamond (or for that matter, moissanite, but see, that’s my personal preference speaking – moissanite is a different stone.)

            1. Thank you – I really appreciate the kind response. I think it might be the “romance” that’s missing for me with a lab stone. I respond emotionally to this ideal of an amazing freak-of-nature stone being found in a regular mountain or cave and professionally coaxed into something beautiful. There are caves in my country for ethical gem stones, and I think the romance of finding a truly amazing and high carat is sort of a “winning the lottery” ideal. I guess sort of like makeup – I don’t like foundation that covers up freckles, because freckles are better than perfect?

         3. Jewelry is about how you feel about it, so you if you don’t like the idea of lab gem stones, that’s your right!
            That said, I LOVE my lab grown diamond and everything it stands for. Lab stones actually aren’t perfect at all – they can have all of the imperfections of a mined diamond. In fact, creating lab stones is more difficult and expensive than mining; it’s only because of artificial supply restrictions that mined diamonds are more expensive. And up until recently, it wasn’t even possible to create a large, high-quality lab grown stone, but the technology has advanced a lot in recent years. So for us, lab stones represents human progress and scientific creation.

            1. I love your perspective! Would love to be able to assimilate that!

         4. I’m with you in terms of the romantic aspect. However, I think of it just like a baby… some are made naturally and the process of fetal development is beautiful for its “Everything had to align just right for this to happen” but others are made in a lab and the process of fetal development is beautiful for its “Everyone in this lab plus all of the science had to align just right for this to happen.”

            Either way, you end up with a baby you love from a process of all the stars aligning at just the right time to make the end product exist.

            If you need to go further, you can think about the decades of science to grow a lab piece. You can think about how people toiled away in school to become the scientists they are to be able to grow that piece just for you, that it’s the culmination of generations of support to raise those people into scientists to get them to the exact spot at the exact time to grow it just for you.

            1. Oh my! That is super interesting – and I apologise to muddling the thread OP- that is probably the worst or least persuasive arguments for me. (I don’t like or want children, and get a bad response from child rearing metaphors. All me, not the metaphors themselves!)
               I guess I don’t care about the scientific effort in terms of gem stones. (This is news to me.).

               Maybe it’s like the difference betwen real film and digital film. Yes, I ackknowledge that digital film is also real and fabulous, but…. I went to a proper old fashioned cinema last winter and saw “Once upon a time in Hollywood” in real film in 35 mm. The physical – and very unexpected . relief, very tangible and real relief, of seeing a real film vs. a perfect digital film was massive and unexpected and emotional. I would love to get the “real” and imperfect feels from a lab stone, but I don’t currently know how.

            2. Then don’t. Get the real stone of your choice. Not every decision has to be the wokest.

   3. How about something from Larkspur and Hawk? They make earrings by mounting semiprecious stones over foil (a technique popular in the Georgian era). The result is beautiful and unique. The foil backing changes the color of the stones slightly and gives them almost a glowing quality.

      https://larkspurandhawk.com/collections/earrings/products/jane-large-post-earrings?variant=15263786893347

   4. You can customize with Moissanite or Lab Diamond at Gemvara. I’ve ordered a few things from them and they all are better than I think they’ll be. Gave my SIL aquamarine earrings from Gemvara for Christmas and she was thrilled!

   5. When I was reseaching stacking rings, I found Karen Johnson Design on Etsy. I can’t afford her, currently, but I really like the information she posted on Etsy and the way she describes her items, including earrings.

   6. My thought whenever people bring up issues with the ethics of diamonds is to buy used or vintage! There is so much gorgeous stuff out there that isn’t new.

8. I was surprised to see the difference in Big Law salaries ($300k+) to the in-house jobs people often take (~$150k+). I am not a lawyer, so I’m just curious here – how do people handle that drop? Do they save/pay down debt while working Big Law and still live closer to how someone who earns $140k would? I imagine that it would be a big pain if you had selected rent/mortgage based on the $300k salary and then it went down by half.

   1. Everyone I know who did this primarily used that time to pay down 159k or so of student loans.

      1. Yup. It’s like an NFL salary. Pay off your loans (in my case $175K), get your nest egg going, and get out.

         1. Also – setting your fixed costs (mortgage, car, etc) based on the high salary is how people get trapped by what are called the “golden handcuffs.” Then you have to keep doing it to afford your life.

      2. Ah this actually makes sense. Let’s say you work in big law 2 years.
         Thats 300k * .65 = $195k after taxes
         195k per year * 2 years = $390k net
         $390k net – $160k loans = $230k for 2 years
         $230k / 2 years = $115k

         So this is obviously very rough, but yeah clearly you should live as if you make much less to be able to pay off your loans quickly.

         1. right.

            In practice almost no one does it that fast because you’re of course not accounting for what comes out of the $115 take-home (expensive rent so you can live near the office, outsourcing more than you’d otherwise need to, extra childcare costs, etc).

            Most people that paid full freight are done after 4-5 years. Which is about the time, conveniently, you become marketable as in house counsel.

            1. Yup. I paid off my loans ($120k) after 3 years, but it was a miserable three years of living very, very frugally. It was worth it to me in order to be done with debt. I stuck around for another 2.5 years to build my nest egg. But it meant when I left to go in-house, despite taking a $60k pay cut, I didn’t change that much in my day to day life.

   2. yes, exactly what you said. people pay down debt if they have it and live more like someone would on $150k and/or they build up a nice nest egg so that maybe they can put down more of a downpayment or buy a car outright, etc. OR they get caught up in the Big Law lifestyle creep and are in for a bit of an awakening when they switch jobs. if you are single, you most certainly do not need 300k to live somewhat nicely and still save

   3. Yep. $100k of loans is about a $2k monthly payment, so paying those off is like getting a huge raise.

      People used to talk about “golden handcuffs” – being sure that you lived a lifestyle you could afford without the big salary.

   4. If you are working insane BigLaw hours, it makes sense to rent a place close to the office for a short commute. If you then get an in-house job, you can cut that part of your expenses down by living in the suburbs and commuting in.

      Understand that BigLaw pays you enough so that you can outsource. Once you have your life back, you outsource less. Kids go to normal daycare or you pay a nanny to work <50 hours a week, rather than paying a day nanny and a night nanny. You cook your own meals.

      Small expenses add up: elevates business casual instead of business formal, people don't care as much what kind of car you drive, lots of throwing one at problems because you lack time.

      1. This. I did the rough math once and figured I would save about $100k in after tax money if I left big law for something with more normal/predictable hours and not have to outsource so much/basically have 24/7 childcare available. I also didn’t really change my lifestyle much after law school other than getting a nicer apartment close to the office, made double/triple loan payments and used 100% of bonus money to pay down debt. It took me about 3 years to pay off 215k. After that I tried to only do upgrades to my life that made my job easier (outsourcing) so I could easily ramp that down if I ever chose to leave big law.

      2. Ditto all this. Also, I switched when one of my kids was in public elementary school, so daycare expenses were lower than they had been. Honestly, you gotta plan, and there was some belt tightening when I went from senior associate to in-house counsel, but it was less extreme than I had anticipated since I got to live more like a normal person and didn’t have to outsource as much.

   5. I had a job that was Big Law level money for several years. I used that time to bank bonuses and pay off all debt, as well as get a million miles to use on personal travel later. Now I miss the paychecks but I have my life back, and I’m able to work essentially part time because I’m pretty much set for retirement. I probably made it sound easy. It wasn’t. It really took a toll.

   6. Pay off student loans, which are often over $200k, and the save for a downpayment. Also, you don’t make $300k+ from the start, so if you leave as a fourth year, you have likely only made that much one year.

   7. Agree with everyone else on the board, but also wanted to point out that some people also get married and can share housing expenses, a fair number of in-house positions may be located in places where the cost of living is less (like the suburbs), and a good chunk of the money in biglaw is made up of bonuses and not base salary, so when you go in-house, the step-down on the base salary may not be that big a difference. This was a long time ago, but when I went in-house from biglaw as a 5th year, I went from $205k base to $180 base, so it wasn’t a major paycut for me.

      1. “a fair number of in-house positions may be located in places where the cost of living is less (like the suburbs)”

         This is true of Boston. A lot of corporations are located on 128 or, now, out near 495, which allows for a nice suburban home in a nice suburban district, a reasonable commute (unless it’s south on 128 in the morning or north in the evening), and free parking.

   8. A few other points – when I went in-house the benefits were so much better than at my big law firm (health care for me alone went from $600/mo to $25/mo for example). Also, those lower in-house salary numbers are usually higher in practice – they’re not counting bonuses or equity grants. If you’re more junior, those are starting not ending numbers. The comp actually gets quite good/comparable to a senior associate in big law after a little time & market/company dependent, but it’s not that unusual. Echo all the lifestyle expense creep costs going away too.

9. There are also expenses associated with Big Law life (outsourcing) that may not be necessary with a shift to in-house. In Big Law, a nanny is often a better choice than daycare, and some families have two nannies if both parents have big jobs. Some people in Big Law choose to get meals delivered or send out laundry or have housekeepers that come more than once every week. Usually, in house jobs are fewer and more predictable hours (at least most of the time), and you can use that gift of time to do more of the work associated with daily life.

10. Here’s an ethical opinion I’d love your opinions on. There are three aspects – what’s legal, what’s ethical and what will the public opinion be.

    In my state, front line health care workers were group 1a but all other health care workers, including those that work in the C-suite or back office accounting staff are part of 1b. Setting aside whether that should be how it is, it is how it is. The definitions in 1A included paid and unpaid staff. Presumably hospitals may still have volunteers that are patient facing. So, now that we are in 1B and all staff, whether working from home or not can get the vaccine, would that include volunteer board members that are meeting remotely? The rationale for the state including work from home accounting and other back office staff in 1B was continuance of a critical structure. Those back office people keep the hospital running.

    This is a question health centers and hospitals all over the state are facing. Our board members govern the facility. 1A mentioned unpaid staff, 1B just said all other healthcare workers and referenced accounting, legal, IT, etc. Nothing explicitly said board members.

    One nursing home faced a lot of public outcry when it vaccinated its board members in 1A. They said they got bad advice from CVS running the clinic that said all of their staff, paid and unpaid were now eligible. But, that bad press was during 1A not 1B.

    The ethics question cuts both ways. If we decide for public image reasons we are not including our board in 1B, are we unnecessarily putting our board at risk if they arguably qualified? If we do include the board, are we “cutting the line” taking away from other needy people. 1B also includes people on a very short list of 2 or more conditions that put them at significant risk as well as the 75+ crowd. 1B is already booking into April.

    I’m a board member of one such facility and I’m torn both ways in a damned if you do, damned if you don’t way. Where it is gray, I’d rather be safe and say no to the board. Another option would be to have the hospital ask someone from the state if board members were intended to be included. The state is so overwhelmed with questions right now though.

    We are all in this standoff waiting for one of the other medical centers to make a decision about their board. No one wants to be the first, either way.

    1. No. The Board members are not staff. The guidance is clear.

       1. Thanks but how does that comport with the “unpaid staff” part? No staff are actually unpaid. Anyone unpaid is a volunteer and they were able to get vaccines. Do you not consider the board volunteers?

          I’m (not sarcastically) glad that you find it clear. No one around here seems to know what to do.

          1. In my state unpaid healthcare staff included unpaid chaplains, workers regularly interacting with patients, and legitimate family caretakers.

             If your Board members can meet remotely, and obviously they can, and they aren’t staff, then my answer is no.

             1. A chaplain is a great example of an unpaid staff member. Thank you!

          2. Board members aren’t staff. I don’t know why you guys can’t understand that.

             1. I can’t believe you guys don’t understand the poor public optics of having your board get the vaccine. Everyone knows that the board can meet remotely and isn’t doing in-person patient care. Yeah, there may be an occasional unpaid staff member such as a chaplain, but most people would understand that such a person may be in close personal contact with patients. This is a no-brainer decision. Your board shouldn’t be getting it (unless the members qualify for other reasons such as age or medical conditions).

    2. Also, the ethics of this do not cut both ways. Don’t require your board to meet in person, and don’t permit them to get the vaccine

    3. No, board members do not count that as staff. I don’t even get how this is a question.

       1. Board members are as much staff as that soul cycle instructor was an educator…..

          1. Right? Good grief don’t you have any sense of how ugly this would look if you did it and it became widely known, OP? And isn’t that a really good reason not to do it?

    4. The board does not fall within 1b, although individual board members may be eligible for the vaccine under other 1b criteria.

    5. Board members get the vaccine in accordance with how they would otherwise be eligible. No one is legally required to get the vaccine as soon as an argument can be made for them to get it, nor are they ethically required to. Your Board should include people who are members of different families and companies and are not meeting in person, so it’s not like you’re worried that the entire Board will simultaneously get the virus. Given that your 1B group is very, very high risk people, not merely high risk (e.g., age 65 or one medical condition), the optics are miserable.

       FWIW, I am group 1C based on my profession, but otherwise am at the very, very back of the line. I’m waiting because I am full time work from home, so essential industry or not, there’s no reason for me to cut in front of people with asthma, bronchitis, or family members who are high risk.

    6. Thanks, everyone. Luckily, our board ethically felt we should not be included. Our CEO though is getting calls from other CEOs inquiring what we are doing. I suspect another board is pushing to be included and that’s what started the whole discussion.

       I kind of understood the argument that if work from accounting is allowed to get it then why isn’t the board allowed to get it (under corporate governance) but I do not think we could be considered unpaid staff. They didn’t use the word volunteer for a reason. We don’t have ID badges. That’s basically where I drew the line.

       1. Sorry, that should have said “work from home accounting.” I’m trying to multi task between my personal computer and work computer here. Rumor has it a bunch of big wigs are having a call about it tomorrow. The place I’m on the board of is a little low income clinic so we don’t have the same . . . personalities . . . to deal with as some of the hospitals.

          I think even if they end up letting their board, we do not unless the state publishes something new.

          1. Especially with that context I think it’s an easy no. Given disparities in vaccine rollout it would be a scandal to let the board get vaccinated under such questionable authority.

       2. Not sure if this helps, but I see the home accounting person as different. At some point, that person is far more likely to need to be brought back in a setting where they will be around those who interact with patients or the environment patients are in (shared custodial staff or vending or what have you). For example, employee x needs to access a seldom-used file or has a problem with their laptop and needs to drop it off with IT. You’re keeping your workforce that oversees operations able to flex and be on-site if need be. Your board has no similar tie to your location or location-based resources.

       3. The accountant is actually staff. The board would have never been considered staff before the pandemic, it doesn’t change now that the situation is vaccine eligibility. It blows my mind that you guys didn’t stop there.

    7. My husband until recently worked for a large regional hospital (non profit, the county designated hospital) and has been keeping up with some of his former coworkers. Basically the first day the hospital received a vaccine allotment, the entire C suite went and got vaccinated. They posted pictures on the company’s website and social media, apparently so out of touch they thought this would be a good thing. The backlash was swift and harsh. None of these execs have any interaction with patients, they are perceived as the elites cutting the line, and it did not land well with employees and the community at large.

       My husband learned about it the day it happened. Two days later we saw it on the 10 o’clock news. No one except the c suiters thought this was a good idea. Not one voice of “well, maybe it’s a good idea because…” Just all around condemnation. This is an entity who has to be reapproved by the county on a regular basis, who has to advocate for how much money they get from the county, and who has to negotiate union contracts with the majority of their clinical staff. This small scandal can’t help them in any way.

       You might think of how this would appear to the public and to system employees if you want to do it.

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