This post may contain affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.
Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
We’re back with another perfect work top from Nordstrom Rack’s seemingly endless collection. This cap-sleeve top has a side-gathered detail that brings a little bit of visual interest to an otherwise basic blouse. It comes in five colors, so it would be a perfect piece for someone just starting to build a work wardrobe.
Wear this under blazers, cardigans, or alone, tucked into a pair of trousers for a perfect, business-casual look.
The top is $22.97 at Nordstrom Rack and comes in sizes XS–XL.
Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
Anon
7th year biglaw (regional office) associate here. Just got my first negative performance review. It’s not totally unexpected – my kid has been really sick this year, and I’ve been behind and less responsive and productive. But with the market and everything else … is this a sign to start job hunting? I’m also pretty tempted to just quit and take the summer off to be with kiddo and start job hunting in the fall. I’m a single parent but financially we’d be fine with me taking up to 12 months off.
FP
If you’re set on leaving before you have another job lined up, I would negotiate with your firm to leave you up on the website through the fall. I would absolutely take this as a signal to leave, as a 7th year.
Cat
Yes, sorry. At your seniority you should either be receiving clear signs to stay and push for partner…. or not. Personally I would not quit without something else. Everyone understands a senior associate seeking to leave Biglaw, but it’s a harder story that you left without something lined up. I would start job hunting now, especially if you want to go in-house. We’re understanding if you want to take a few weeks off in between to clear your head from Biglaw stress!
Anon
+1 to all this.
Anonymous
So much this. Do NOT quit without something else lined up. Take it from me, an old who quit a few days before 9/11 happened and the job marketing instantly shifted. Interviewing alone can easily take up 3 months of that. While 12 months sounds doable, you have no idea what the market may actually look like at that time. It’s much, much better to line something up and negotiate a late start date (prior job let me take 7 weeks without even blinking). I’d rather have them say no to a late start date and have the opportunity fall through than to be the one that’s got the clock against them and feeling like I couldn’t be as choosy as I wanted. If you quit, you’re also likely to find yourself explaining that gap for a long time to come. At the least, don’t make a decision like this when you’re still feeling the sting of the review. Do it when you’ve got a little more distance for perspective. I know it’s tempting to see warm weather coming and want a summer off, and you will likely justify it as memories with your kid. But as a single parent, the better thing for kid is probably ensuring a stable future–and you can’t when you’re gambling on picking up another job on demand, especially as we all get older. (But as soon as you get the new job, tag on a great vacation with kiddo.)
Anon
This is exactly it. And it’s horrible that firms play pretend poor performance that messes with your head when it’s really just you’re out, not moving up to partner. You also could lateral and look for an in-house role from there (depending on your practice area, it could take a while, the in-house market is tight right now). But hang in there, I’m certain you’re a great lawyer, this is just what happens to most people who stay that long in biglaw.
Anon
Not in law, but I agree with not quitting before you have something else lined up – even if it’s something like contract work.
Last year, about this time, things started going downhill for me at my then-employer – my reviews were fine but I wasn’t being included in big meetings and I would go days at a time without hearing anything from anyone about the projects I was working on – and I contemplated just quitting pre-emptively and taking the summer off (always nice to have time off in the summer, right? My kid is a teen but it would have been good to go to the gym and the pool and Costco mid-day, etc.) and then job-hunting in the fall. The job market was still fairly hot at that point and I was getting more than one recruiter contact a week, so I figured – no problem.
My husband and my best friend convinced me to hang in and just start job-hunting, which I did. I also kind of invented my own project at work that I could do to keep myself occupied – I was getting no work from my boss, at that point. In July, I answered a recruiter message on LinkedIn from a local company that wanted someone for a mostly-remote role and started interviewing.
I then got laid off at the beginning of August, right about the time that I noticed a big shift in the job market – a lot of “I just got laid off” notices on LinkedIn, along with a definite decrease in the number of recruiters reaching out. I landed the job I’d been interviewing for and was only out of work 6 weeks, which was great because right about the time I started my new job I started getting multiple messages a week from peers in my field asking if I knew anyone who was hiring. At least 8-10 people I knew had been laid off.
I think we maybe still have not seen the bottom of job losses and so now may not be a great time to be out of work by choice. You may find it hard to get back into a job when you need one. The negative performance review was a clear signal, which is always a gift, IMO, and so now you know, time to start looking. Lean out, start looking, but don’t leave without having something else lined up. Now’s not a great moment to not be in a chair when the music stops.
Celia
I would definitely start the job hunt. I do think it’s possible to bounce back from one negative annual review, and you should communicate with the partners you work closely with to get a sense of how serious it is and what you can do. But job hunting never hurts and there is something to be said about taking ownership early of your path out of BigLaw if you sense it is time as it is a lot easier to do the jump while you still have a job and – if layoffs are coming in the industry – before too many others are looking. If you have good relationships with your partners, you might also see if they could leverage their relationships to help you get something in house or with a firm alum who has their own shop and might be looking to hire an experienced associate. I would not recommend a gap on your resume, though, unless you believe a break is absolutely necessary. Better to line something up first and arrange for some time off between jobs. If you’re pretty sure you are going to leave the firm and need a bit of a break, you could see about reduced hours so you aren’t struggling to bill 40/week. That has some risk – in 2008 and 2020 at my BigLaw firm part timers seemed to get shown the door first – but you know the culture of your firm, and it could be valuable flexibility if you need to buckle down on job searching.
AnonSatOfc
Yeah – this is the “or out” of “up or out”. I’m sorry, and there are good options out there!
Anon
I wouod start looking and if at all possible, stick with your current job but dial back how hard you are working while you focus on the search. You can give pretty short notice at your current firm to try for 2-4 weeks off between, but you’ll be in a stronger position if searching while still employed. Things will slow down at end of summer so I’d make a big push in next 2 months and then plan a nice vacation or time off in August and then push again come September.
Anonymous
Yes, my experience is that the job market slows down significantly for attorney hires near year end because no one (other firms, in house) wants to make people whole for their year end bonuses, and most attorneys don’t want to leave their bonus on the table once they are halfway through the year. January-June/July seems to be the recruiting season.
Anokha
This is a sign to start job hunting. Rather than quitting without something lined up, see if you can job hunt while at the firm — and then push your new job out as far as possible.
Former Partner
Do not discount the option of asking your firm to help you find a client to take you in-house. Some firms eat their young and refuse to do this, but unless your firm is like that, they should be happy to help place you so that you and your new employer/client are “friends of the firm.”
I know it feels embarrassing to ask for this kind of help from the very people who are forcing you to need it. I succumbed to that shame and failed to ask (even though I was a junior partner!). I ended up landing a fantastic in-house position, but it would have been much easier with help and I’m sorry I didn’t ask for it.
AnonSatOfc
I agree this is totally how it should work, but I wouldn’t do this until OP is ready to move on and starts looking herself. I notified my firm when I wanted to explore going in-house – before getting a bad review but when I had not been promoted as a senior associate – and it started the clock ticking for my exit, including being told “OK so we know you’ve been looking and since it’s been a few months your last day is X.”
So, TLDR: Ask for help when you need it but know it may come at a cost in terms of your timeline.
Former Partner
Excellent clarification.
Anon
^^THIS. I feel like if you tell them you’re looking to go in-house you’re effectively giving notice, although you’ll likely have a few months instead of two weeks. I agree with the broader point that law firms have an incentive to place associates in-house, but I don’t know how you go about doing this without them starting your notice period.
Anon
As a GC, I would say it’s pretty rare that I’m looking to a firm for a lawyer when filling a role. The only time I’ve reached out is for junior associate level lawyers, which firms aren’t anxious to give up either. I wouldn’t put a lot of stock in this strategy. I’m generally also looking for people who have in-house experience already except at entry levels, so OP you may need to adjust salary and level expectations if you want to go in-house, too.
Anon
Counterpoint – my BigLaw firm frequently successfully places senior associates into in house roles with big clients. It’s part of how we keep those clients’ work.
Cat
This is an exception to what I and my peers experienced. Most of us landed at clients of our prior firms. They got to know us through deal work, etc. Having already heard us negotiate live, they were more comfortable bringing us in! Of course pay cuts were involved but I don’t think anyone is blind to that part.
anon
I disagree with anon at 11:28. I’m a DGC and looking to hire now, and I plan to speak to several of the partners and counsel I work with regularly at our favorite biglaw firm for names of some great mid-level to senior associates who might be candidates. I know we’ve hired several other people this way too.
anon
I’m a DGC and I also don’t generally look to biglaw firms when trying to fill roles – the salary expectations are too high and people seem less accepting than they were in the past of the fact that you take a major paycut in exchange for the lifestyle benefits. We hire from small/mid-sized firms and other companies, typically.
Also, I was a biglaw partner and I honestly cannot imagine reaching out to clients to see if they wanted to hire a senior associate that we had performance concerns about. Maybe there are firms that do it, but we did not. That said, we also did not have a highly leveraged staffing model – we didn’t have a glut of associates that we needed to weed out before partnership.
Anon
I’m a big law partner and clients and other contacts (former colleagues, former clients, etc) reach out all the time to ask if I have recommendations when they are hiring.
It’s not so much that I would call up clients and say hey please take this person off my hands but more that if I found out an associate was interested in something in house I may know of someone looking to hire and connect them.
As to the comment about an underperforming associate that is a bit unfair. Big law is a weird place, even if someone is an objectively bad associate (which I sort of doubt is true based on what the OP posted but who knows), that doesn’t mean they are a bad lawyer, it just means they aren’t succeeding in the weird and narrow world that is big law. A lot of the skills needed to succeed in biglaw aren’t particularly relevant for an in house position. I’ve seen plenty of “bad” (as characterized in biglaw) associates go on to have very successful careers outside big law.
Anon
Yes, start job hunting. If you are at all interested in government work, make sure to check USAJobs. I left biglaw for government as a senior associate and am super happy with my choice (I’m a litigator). I didn’t have any special connections to get my job and just applied cold through the website. My only regret is I didn’t start looking sooner because I was really at a breaking point when I left, so my new mantra is always to have an eye out for interesting positions as it never hurts to know what’s out there. Government hiring can take a long time, and you can often negotiate a start date, so don’t quit just yet – keep drawing that salary until you’ve got the offer in hand! And that goes for any job you take – I wouldn’t quit until you had an offer and just negotiate a later start date, as tempting as it is to say F you in this situation and quit. Just lean out, bank everything you can from those sweet sweet biglaw paychecks, keep your health insurance, and then take time off between jobs.
Anon OP
Ugh, ok. Thanks all. I thought so, but it was just such an about turn from all of the really positive, partner-track, etc. conversations but I guess that’s how it goes.
Anyone in the market for a commercial IP lawyer? Willing to relocate if it’s somewhere interesting.
Senior Attorney
Ugh, sorry this is happening, OP. One upside is you can stop busting your butt every minute and lean out while you are job hunting.
MJ
Check TechGC, ventureloop, first round capital and sequoia jobboards, ABA jobboard, MLA listings, axiom, paragon legal and of course, linked in.
I will echo that hiring is very tight in house right now compared to a year ago.
Anon
Yeah, it’s not your fault. Law firms seem to be giving negative reviews left and right to provide cover for layoffs of good associates. And as a pp suggested you could potentially have a very frank conversation with a mentor you trust about your prospects for partnership given that last year’s review was positive – while also looking for a new job. I think this is good advice especially if you hadn’t heard the specific criticism prior to the review. But I commiserate – it totally sucks. I’m sure you will have options though!
Leatty
Recommendations for reasonably priced pants for work? I’ve lost some weight recently and none of my old pants fit. I’m not done with my health journey, so I don’t want to spend a fortune on the MMLaFleur Foster pants I love. Work is on the dressier side (one step down from a full suit), but I prefer pants with a little stretch.
Anon
I really like Uniqlo’s work pants especially as a short term solution.
AIMS
+1.
TheElms
Look for a pair of Foster pants in your new size on Poshmark? I like the Quince ponte pants and they work in my East Coast big law office where some folks are still in full suits even when not in client meetings (dress code is officially smart casual or better though.)
Leatty
Thanks! I buy almost all of my MMLaFleur from Poshmark or another resale site, but the pickings are a bit slim in my new size.
Anonymous
Or the MMLF resale section.
Anonymous
Express
go for it
+1 The Editor are a fan fav, and having just changed sizes I did plunk down the $ for new
washable workhorses.
Anon
Costco pants. I reach for them more than the foster pants
Anon
Which ones?
What is your body shape?
Anonymous
I’m not the commenter above, but I have Costco’s BR pants in all the offered colors—black, navy, olive. They’re the Slim-Straight Capri Pant. I have short legs and they’re the perfect ankle length on me—might be too short for tall ladies.
Also, anyone else find it kinda weird that Banana’s main line is crazy expensive now but somehow they have a discount line at Costco(!?)
Anon
Could you wear the Old Navy Pixie pants? They don’t work for me, but I know they’re very popular.
Anonymous
IME Pixies do not wear well. I bought both Pixies and A New Day pants from Target the same week. 3 months later the Pixies look very tired and the Target pants still look great. Same wear, washing etc… No dryer.
Anonymous
Try some local thrifr stores and see what you can find.
I buy 90% of my clothes second hand and have often found higher end brands for pennies on the dollar.
anon
Maybe BR Factory? Loft?
Midwesterner
Get on Talbot’s email list and look for online sales. They often offer 40% off at least one item, and I have decent affordable pants that have worn really well. And don’t let my name trick you into thinking I’m a big frump!
Anon
Find the pants you like now one size down on resale sites. This is exactly what I’ve been doing.
Anonie
Check out the Liverpool Los Angeles trousers at Nordstrom – about $100 and good fit and fabric IMO. More of a modern high waist straight leg cut than the Editor
Anon
J Crew Cameron pants have some stretch without being made of terribly flimsy material. Bonus – they do absolutely fine run through the washer and dryer.
Anon
Betabrand Dress Pant Yoga Pants. Get the black ones.
here she goes
I just finished listening to The Daily Thursday podcast with Ali Diercks (An Anonymous #MeToo Source Goes Public) and I’m curious if others here listened and have any reactions. I’m not a lawyer, but found myself pretty horrified in the way Diercks violated the attorney-client privilege and her position. At the start of the podcast I was neutral and as I listened I found it harder and harder to be sympathetic to Diercks position. It would have been one thing if the firm got a chance to present the report and then the CBS board buried the report instead of acting on it; then I could see Diercks as a whistleblower. But she didn’t even give the process a chance to work…I’m not saying it would have, but it just seems so reactive to preemptively leak the report draft. Am I missing something here?
here she goes
ETA then I could MAYBE see Diercks as a whistleblower. Considering that she was one of their attorneys, I’m not convinced that it was right for her to leak this information ever. It just seems like lazy activism maybe? I get that what she was seeing was bad – there’s no denying that. But take that knowledge and use it to push for broad reckoning; become a women’s advocate, etc.
Anonymous
Lawyers do not get to be whistleblowers. She absolutely should have been fired and lost her law license and should never work as a lawyer again.
Anonymous
She was. She was fired, and her license suspended with a possible but unlikely reinstatement after 18 months.
Lawyers don’t get to be whistleblowers without consequences, but they have the choice to take those consequences. It’s how the system works.
The part I have a problem with is that she kept investigating and giving information over a period and was hiding it. I think a lawyer should only take one shot. Take what information you have public once, then fess up and leave law for good. Sneaking around compounds the ethical violations.
Anonymous
I know. I’m saying I think it was correct. She’s being whiny about it.
here she goes
Whiney, and totally not taking responsibility for where she’s at right now. Both the reporter and Diercks talk like they didn’t have any other choices and they are victims to how this all played out. It almost seems like Diercks thinks that she’s a MeToo victim. No, she is not. Maybe that’s what rubbed me the wrong way so much.
Anonymous
This is one of the many reasons I didn’t go into practice after graduating law school. I remember being horrified at a hypothetical in my practice skills class about a father who disclosed to his attorney that he was abusing his child, and the answer was to do nothing unless the child was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. I understand that an ethical lawyer is supposed to convince the client to quit doing whatever it is they are doing that is wrong or illegal, but hahaha to that. Rules like this tend to drive decent human beings away from the profession.
Anonymous
Wow
ANON
uh in that hypo he can disclose…
Anonymous
No, the lawyer can’t disclose absent imminent danger to the child.
Anon
Okay, but if the client is abusING his child, there is imminent danger to the child.
Anon
In Massachusetts, the rule is under Rules Rules of Professional Conduct Rule 1.6: Confidentiality of information, and allows for disclosure to prevent substantial bodily harm or death. Unlike other professions, you just aren’t required to report.
Anon
Yeah if it’s abuse that is ongoing that is both an ongoing crime and imminent danger to the child and I don’t see how you couldn’t disclose. I think it would be different if they just disclosed past abuse and you had no reason to believe the abuse was still happening.
Anon
That’s wrong. An attorney has an ethical obligation to report an ongoing crime like child abuse
Anon California
You had a terrible teacher if you left that hypo thinking you could not disclose the abuse. Just to quote my own state’s laws: “There is no privilege . . . if the lawyer reasonably believes that disclosure of any confidential communication relating to representation of a client is necessary to prevent a criminal act that the lawyer reasonably believes is likely to result in the death of, or substantial bodily harm to, an individual.”
Since child abuse would definitely result in substantial bodily harm, an attorney could absolutely disclose it. This is not a close call.
Anonymous
The professor made it turn on “substantial bodily harm.”
Anonymous
Unless it is emotional abuse and open handed slaps, like my husband dealt with as a child. No chance of substantial *bodily* harm, just mental.
Anon
I think slapping a child in the face would be considered substantial bodily harm.
Anonymous
The general definition of substantial bodily harm in my state:
“Unless the context otherwise requires, “substantial bodily harm” means: 1. Bodily injury which creates a substantial risk of death or which causes serious, permanent disfigurement or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ; or. 2. Prolonged physical pain.”
As a lawyer, I’d probably report anyway and take the consequences, but there would definitely be an argument for an ethical violation.
ANON
honestly she didn’t seem that committed to being a lawyer
Seventh Sister
As a lawyer (albeit one who is many years out of law school), I found myself tossing between feeling bad for this young person and being irritated at someone with a bar license clearly violating the duty of confidentiality.
I’m someone who doesn’t have super-elite law credentials, so I have a lot of empathy for people who have to take crappy or crappy-ish law jobs. Frankly, many of them are just as smart and capable as the people who start as first years making one gazillion dollars and swanning about in big fancy offices.
That said, I wasn’t real clear on why she’d gone to law school, why she’d moved to New York, etc. The interview made me think of the (desperately unhappy) classmates I’d had in law school who were there because they had good grades in college and couldn’t think of anything else to do with their life.
If she’d been a friend or mentee or extended family member, I would have encouraged her to quit that job and find something she liked doing, especially if she felt like she was finding out terrible things that would be covered up by the law firm. But being so sure about a coverup seems kind of presumptuous in that a decent-to-good employment lawyer ought to say to their client, “hey, we found some awful stuff, maybe you should settle.”
Brunch Wedding
My fiance and I are thinking about having a brunch wedding, with a timeline running from about 11 am – 3 pm. As a guest, would you prefer to attend this type of wedding on a Saturday or a Sunday?
For context, most guests will be traveling from out of state.
Anon
Probably Saturday, but I think how far “out of state” is may impact my response.
OP
Pretty far: Wedding would be in upstate New York, but about half of our guest list is from the west coast.
Anon
Oh, then definitely Saturday. I would want to leave bright and early on Sunday to get home, since it would not only include a cross-country flight but also likely a layover (or a long drive to an airport).
Anon
I feel the opposite – if the guests are coming from the west coast, Sunday is better. They could fly Friday night on a red eye and fly home Sunday afternoon without using PTO. I guess depending on flight times they could potentially do the same thing for a Saturday wedding, but I wouldn’t want to attend a wedding right after coming off a red eye flight.
Anon
Depending on where the wedding is and where the guests have to return to, I don’t think they could fly home on Sunday after the wedding.
I’m envisioning a decent drive to the airport (1-2 hours maybe), returning the rental car, and getting to the airport in time (so that’s 4 hours pre-flight right there), plus a cross country flight (5ish hours), and likely a layover (let’s add 2 hours there). So that’s 11ish hours of travel, which I would not want to do on a Sunday afternoon / evening and then go to work on Monday.
NYCer
Based on this additional info, I reconsider my original vote for Sunday. I would definitely do Saturday. It is easier to take off a Friday vs. a Monday from work, and it sounds like everyone will have to take a day off.
Consider
Do any of your guests observe faiths that affect ability to travel on certain days?
OP
No, none that we’re aware of.
Anonymous
Saturday.
Anon
As a guest I’d probably prefer Saturday, although we did a brunch wedding and had our wedding on Sunday for religious reasons. Many of our guests lived only a few hours away and drove home Sunday afternoon and went to work Monday. The guests who flew in mostly wanted to stay in the area (a popular tourist destination) for at least a 3 day weekend, so I don’t think it was a terrible burden to have it Sunday vs Saturday.
Anon
And fwiw our ceremony was at 11 and I think our reception roughly ran 12-3 but quite a few people left early (after the meal and cake, but while people were still dancing, etc.) to get a jump start on the drive home and that was no big deal.
Anon
I’ve been to one daytime reception and pretty much everyone left after the meal / cake because while there was a band and a dance floor, it felt really weird to be dancing at noon… So, if you want a dancey wedding, that’s probably not going to happen.
Anon
Oh I had an extremely dance-y wedding! Some people had to leave early, but the majority of guests stayed until we were thrown out by the venue, and we were absolutely tearing up the dance floor. My brunch wedding was SO FUN and our guests seemed to love it. I guess it just depends on the crowd of people you have!
Mrs. Jones
Saturday probably
Anon
Saturday. If it were on Sunday, then a bunch of people would probably have to take Monday off at work. Even if they have to take Friday off, that’s usually a more low key day for most people. Saturday gives everyone a day and a half to get back home and settle back in.
I have a general bias against Sunday weddings if they require travel for this reason.
Anon
+1 I’ve been invited to Sunday weddings that I couldn’t make work and ended up declining for the same reasons you listed. Saturday would have been easier.
But OP, you do you. It’s your wedding. If there is a huge additional fee to getting married on a Sunday vs Saturday, and you’re not concerned about missing a few guests. I would go for the day you prefer. :)
Anon
Agree with this.
Anon
Saturday for sure. Otherwise, I could be in the position of rushing to leave your wedding to catch the last flight home on Sunday/taking Monday off.
Anon
Probably Saturday, but I’ve gone to this kind of wedding on a Sunday, where there was also a Saturday night event, and it was nice. If you do it on Sunday, I’d prefer a little earlier, though, more like 10-1? That was still enough time to catch a flight home. It depends a lot on where you are and where people are coming from, though. In my small west coast city, that would already be too late to get back to the east coast, so the exact timing wouldn’t really matter for people flying, but would be easier for people driving.
AIMS
I would prefer Sunday personally.
NYCer
+1. Though we are clearly in the minority. :)
Anon
+2
Anon
Saturday. When I take PTO on a Friday the beginning of the week feels easier knowing that I’m only working four days. When I take PTO on a Monday I feel behind for the rest of the week.
Out of genuine curiosity, why are you considering a brunch wedding? Is it due to cost? Or most of the attendees aren’t drinkers? Not trying to talk you out of it, it’s just uncommon in my circle and I’d love to hear why it’s your preference.
Anon
Not OP but we had a Sunday brunch wedding because we’re Jewish and rabbis won’t marry people on the sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday). We had to get married during the summer months due to my husband’s job, and even in late August sunset is around 8 pm. We come from early bird families and having an 8 pm ceremony, 9 pm dinner and 10 pm to 1 am reception on Saturday night would have made our 60 year old parents miserable (and frankly would have made us miserable too). We did not want to get married on Sunday evening, because we thought that would interfere more with people’s lives (as I mentioned above a lot of our guests were driving distance and were able to drive home Sunday afternoon and go to work Monday). Sunday brunch worked out great, and almost everyone we invited attended, although we only invited close friends and family.
Anonymous
In that situation Sunday brunch seems ideal. OP just seems to want to save money. If that’s the reason, I’d have a less fancy Saturday evening wedding rather than a brunch wedding because it is quite an imposition on out-of-town guests to make them stay over two nights and take a day off of work to accommodate travel to a brunch wedding. The west coast guests will probably need to stay two nights no matter what, but the other half could probably get by with one night for an evening wedding. The key word in “hosting a wedding” is “hosting.”
Anon
I guess I give people grace, and assume they probably have reasons for scheduling it the way they did beyond being cheapskates. My husband and I are not devout and the majority of our guests were not even Jewish, so I think a lot of our guests probably had no idea religion was a factor.
OP
OP here. We’re thinking about a brunch wedding because we’re not planning to have dancing. We will definitely have alcohol and some type of music (either a curated playlist or an instrumental band such as a jazz band). It’s been suggested to me that if we don’t plan to have dancing, then we should have a brunch or lunch wedding so guests aren’t confused or disappointed by the lack of dancing.
Would be interested to hear if you have any follow-up thoughts on this!
Anon
I’m curious as to why you don’t want dancing? I haven’t been to a wedding without it.
How many people are you inviting? The only weddings that make sense to not have dancing are the very small ones where they then go celebrate at a nice restaurants as opposed to the typical reception.
Is there any sort of entertainment? If not, I don’t think your reception will last until 3PM as mentioned earlier.
Does everyone invited either know other guests and / or have a +1? I can get by at weddings where I don’t know a ton of people with alcohol + dancing, but if there’s no dancing (and I won’t drink much during the day anyways), I would be miserable trying to make small talk for that long.
Anon
“I’m curious as to why you don’t want dancing? I haven’t been to a wedding without it.”
I had a brunch wedding, mid-day, with no dancing. We did not want a huge showy expensive affair and neither my now-husband and I nor our families could afford an event like that. People stayed the entire time and we actually had to kick people out of the venue when our time was up because everyone was having such a good time. We’re still married after nearly 25 years, so, you know – the marriage has held up fine without having a big froofy evening affair with dancing. Not everyone has to do things the way you/your friends do them; that’s absolutely allowed.
“Does everyone invited either know other guests and / or have a +1? I can get by at weddings where I don’t know a ton of people with alcohol + dancing, but if there’s no dancing (and I won’t drink much during the day anyways), I would be miserable trying to make small talk for that long.”
Right right the OP should definitely completely reconsider the type of wedding she wants to have because you’re socially awkward and can’t make small talk with people for more than half an hour without getting boozed up, that’s totally reasonable
Anon
I mean have you had to sit and chat with people you don’t know for 4 hours? That’s not fun for many people. I’m very social but I would hate that.
Anon
Yikes. What an uncalled for comment: “you’re socially awkward and can’t make small talk with people for more than half an hour without getting boozed up, that’s totally reasonable”
Anon
I’ve been to many weddings without dancing and personally hate dancing and never dance at weddings. My husband has major social anxiety around being the center of attention and barely survived the ceremony — having to do a first dance would have probably given him a heart attack. I’ve never seen him more relieved than I did after the ceremony was over — he was dreading having all those eyes on him so much (and was sweating profusely during). So we did not have dancing at our wedding but we also only invited people who were very actively involved in our lives so pretty much everyone knew — or at least met several times — everyone else at their table. People seemed to have fun! And so did we.
Anonymous
My husband and I also dislike dancing but it didn’t occur to me to not have dancing at my wedding. I suppose I would have hated a dj and club music but we hired an awesome band that played classic rock and some people danced and others just mingled and drank and talked. My husband’s uncle said it was like a concert and his stepbrother, a professional musician, jumped in a played a few sets with them. We all sang along to “roselita.”My husband’s newly single high school buddy and a close family friend of mine positively hit it off and danced all night; they began dating shortly after. No shade to anyone but the first dances and entrances are not my jam so we skipped them. So I vote you just get an awesome band and have a little dance floor space and let anyone dance if they want to. Trust me, no one is dying to see the couple’s first dance.
Anon
Oh don’t let that drive you! We had a dinner party wedding, started at 5 for the ceremony and then just a dinner party. It was wonderful – fun cocktail hour and lots of mingling over w long meal. No one missed dancing at all and people stayed quite quite late, we got home at 2AM. I personally think dancing can shut things down too early because a lot of people don’t like it and leave.
Cat
Hm. The brunch weddings I’ve been to (admittedly only 2 of them) have had dancing. They were just like an evening wedding. So I don’t think your timeline sets expectations. I would do either brunch on Sat or an evening dinner, but make it clear on the invitation – “seated dinner to follow” as opposed to “dinner and dancing.”
Anon
+1 I have been to two brunch weddings that had dancing. I would expect dancing at a wedding of any time of day unless specifically noted that there’d be no dancing.
Anon
+2 I had a brunch wedding and people definitely expected to dance and I think they would have been disappointed with no dancing. My BFF’s parents started a conga line :) We knew our guests would want to dance though, so YMMV.
Anon
I had a saturday night wedding with no dancing and it was great! It was at a restaurant backyard that commonly does wedding, not at a big wedding hall, so it wasn’t weird to not have a dance floor. I don’t think anyone missed it. We did have a live jazz band.
Senior Attorney
I had a brunch wedding recepition because the church was only available in the morning and we didn’t want the guests to have to hang around and wait (we actually had a second dance party later that evening). In addition to a jazz combo, we had several other kinds of entertainment: photo booth, wandering close-up magician, and a balloon animal guy. It was super fun and everybody had a great time! (And yeah, some of the die-hard dancers danced anyway towards the end!)
Anon
Not the OP, had a Saturday brunch wedding. Rationale:
1. About half of the attendees don’t drink at all and the other half love to drink. The drinkers got to day drink mimosas and old fashioneds, and the non-drinkers didn’t feel weird.
2. With a lot of people coming in from out of town, we wanted to spend time with them. After the reception, we invited people out to walk around our city and then out for dinner.
3. I’m not into the whole bridesmaid in matching robes and pictures and girl time thing, and neither were my bridesmaids. No judge if it’s your thing!
4. Better food, less money, huge variety. I’m a vegetarian and found my dinner options offered by many vendors to be mediocre “keep body and soul together” food, not celebratory and filling wedding food. The variety of brunch foods was a big hit with our guests – we had three stations and maybe a dozen different options.
Anon
I commented elsewhere that we also had a brunch wedding and people LOVED the food. We only had 40 guests so our venue was able to offer an omelet station along with some other really nice options – mini quiche; ham-and-swiss mini croissant sandwiches, a really great fruit salad and green salad, and a few other things. Everyone got full and people commented very positively on the food, which was much better than the rubber-chicken dinner options we would have had if we’d gone to a big venue for an evening wedding.
Also just want to say, in regards to your number-three point: not everyone is into the big bridal to-do As Seen on Social Media. I never wanted that – I didn’t even have a bridal shower as I didn’t want to be the center of attention and wear the hat made out of ribbons, etc. – and two+ decades later I’m still very happy about what we did for our wedding and wouldn’t make too many changes if I had it to do over again. I think there are some people who love being the center of attention and there are other people who would rather stick their hand in a Vitamix and hit the “on” switch than be the center of attention, even for a day. We originally were going to go to the courthouse, but as I was the first grandchild to get married, my mom kind of talked us into having an actual wedding, but just to downscale away from the big poofy-froofy expensive evening event, which, BTW, has not always been A Thing – I would imagine many of our moms and grandmothers did not have Pinterest-worthy evening weddings with 100+ people. If the OP and her fiance have decided this is what they want, trying to talk her into an evening wedding because that’s what you did – or because you never got to have a wedding and you’re living vicariously through an internet stranger – is a bad look. Not every little girl dreams of her dream pretty-princess wedding from the time she’s 7 years old. Some of us legitimately did not care and just wanted to get married. P.S., a lot of the women I knew who were super-invested in creating their perfect wedding and didn’t really focus on who they were marrying or how to build a good relationship have been divorced a couple of times now.
I am just kind of amazed that there are people who think the only possible way anyone can ever have a wedding, ever is to have an evening wedding with a sit-down dinner and dancing. Um – NO, that is not the case. I don’t know if we have a bunch of 23-year-olds here with limited life experience or what, but I have been to many daytime weddings and they’ve been lovely in their own way. Broaden your horizons; it will help you in many ways.
Anonymous
The thing is that if you scale back to a courthouse wedding or a brunch reception you typically also scale back the guest list and don’t invite a zillion people from all over the country, just a handful of people who are close enough that they don’t mind inconvenient timing and travel. If you are demanding that a lot of people fly across the country, you have to consider their travel needs in scheduling your event.
Anonymous
IME guests who want to dance will find a way to do it whether you provide a dance floor or not!
Anon
Totally, totally fine to have a courthouse or brunch or whatever wedding, but you can’t expect many people to travel in for that.
Anon
How is a brunch reception “scaled back”? You are all so snobby and narrow.
Anon
I love a nice omelet station and fancy brunch, but if I’m going to a wedding I’m really looking forward to the food at both cocktail hour and the reception. In my mind, this means food like an entree selection of crab cake / steak of some sort and good passed appetizers. A brunch, even if its really good, doesn’t hold a candle to dinner for me.
Anon
We had a brunch wedding but didn’t have brunch food. It was a sit down meal and there were three entrees (seafood, chicken and vegetarian) just like you’d have at a dinner.
Anon
Which is fine for how you plan your own wedding but, gently, is irrelevant to how other people plan their weddings.
Anon
Sorry, I’m just laughing envisioning you meticulously poring over the wedding invitations you receive to make sure the food offerings are going to be up to your high standards before you RSVP that you’re coming.
Like, do you never have the means to take yourself to a nice restaurant for a good meal? If I want to eat a really nice meal where I can choose between crab cakes and steak I find a nice restaurant and my husband and I go there for dinner. I don’t look to the weddings I attend to provide me with food and entertainment that’s to my exacting standards; that’s why I have a job – so I can afford to purchase those experiences for myself. Weddings are about the wedding couple and what they want, not providing guests with a free glitzy night out complete with gourmet food. Sorry no one has apparently ever told you that before now?
here she goes
I’d prefer Saturday, and I would be SO EXCITED to attend a brunch wedding. I like everything about a daytime wedding idea very much.
Anon
Late but want to +1 this! I’ve never been to a brunch wedding but think it would be different and very fun.
Anonymous
If guests have to fly, this will require them to stay over two nights instead of just one. For an evening wedding they may be able to fly in Saturday morning and fly out Sunday. For a Saturday brunch wedding they’ll have to fly in Friday and fly home Sunday. If you are having a brunch wedding to save money, you are really just transferring costs to your guests, and some may decline for this reason or because they don’t want to take a day off of work. But if you want to reduce the size of your guest list that will work.
A brunch wedding with primarily local guests is a whole other story.
Anon
+1 agree to this.
Anon
Not necessarily – if the wedding city has direct flights to where the guests live or if the guests are flying west, it may be totally possible for people to fly home Sunday afternoon.
Anon
+1 I flew from Chicago back to California after an afternoon wedding. I think my flight left O’Hare at 7 pm and got into LA at a reasonable-ish hour like 9 pm.
Anon
Yeah, but starting in Chicago vs starting in NY already takes time off of your flight.
Buffalo is probably the biggest airport in Upstate NY and it doesn’t have any direct flights to the West Coast (the airport’s website says JetBlue flies directly to LA, but I couldn’t find any flights on that itinerary).
If the wedding ends at 3, the earliest guests could depart would be 5 PM (and that depends on how far the venue is from the airport).
There’s pretty much no way to get from Upstate NY to the West Coast on a Sunday night and make it not miserable at work on Monday.
Anon
OP doesn’t say that’s her reasoning but if it is you have my +1. Separately, planning a destination wedding in hopes that people will decline means you’re forcing close friends to spend money and PTO so you can avoid an awkward conversation with great aunt Judy. I know an invitation is not a summons but who would skip their BFF’s or close relative’s wedding if they technically can afford it? The guests who can decline regret and guilt-free are the ones you have a distant relationship with. But the people who care most about you are the ones that end up shouldering the cost. General rant, not directed at OP.
Anon
Not always true.
We had several guests leave in mid afternoon to drive home or catch flights. It really depends on where you are in relation to the airport; our reception was literally a mile and a half and two traffic lights away from a regional airport and an hour (very straight shot, all highway, Saturday traffic is unheard of) from a larger city airport.
Anonymous
Probably Saturday if there is travel involved.
That said, it’s your wedding and you should do what works best for you. We got married on a Friday afternoon because of a discount, and 99% of our invites showed up.
Anonymous
No no no to the second paragraph. That is a bridezilla attitude. You shouldn’t go broke for your guests’ convenience, but they shouldn’t go broke to save money for you either. Scale back the wedding so you can afford to have it at a convenient time.
Anonymous
The way you interpreted “we got married on a Friday afternoon because of a discount” is very interesting to me…
Anon
Terrible take.
Anon
My husband’s cousin is getting married on a Thursday and it’s a 6-8 hour drive from us, so we will be taking 3 days off to attend. I always thought that I would be resentful of someone doing this, but I understand their reasons (money and other issues) and I’m actually quite happy to make the trip and excited for the wedding.
Anon
Saturday unless your guests are Jewish and religious.
Anon
Something to consider, if you at all care about hair and makeup, the timeline to start getting ready for a brunch wedding will be insanely early in the morning. You couldn’t pay me enough to want to wake up bleary eyed on my wedding day. As a guest, that’s not an issue, but I will say brunch weddings have ranked as the least fun weddings I’ve gone to. The vibe is just off somehow.
Anon
+1
Even with an open bar and dancing, it’s weird to throw back drinks and tear up the dance floor during daylight hours! I really enjoy getting tipsy, eating good food, and dancing and having a blast with my friends at weddings. The vibe would be very different during the day; I’m much more likely to have 1 glass of wine, sit and chat and then go out with friends later that night to throw down and have fun.
If you do a Saturday wedding, do you have anything planned for Saturday night? I think it’d be odd to travel that far and then just be “done” at 3PM. Many towns in upstate NY are pretty small, is the wedding in an area where guests will have options on things to do after the wedding?
And +1 to the hair and makeup comment; last time I was a bridesmaid we started hair and makeup for a 4PM wedding at 8AM. So, for an 11 AM wedding you’d have to get up very early and you’d be asking your bridesmaids (if you have them) to get up really early too. Which, I guess is less of an issue since the wedding will be done at 3PM, everyone can go to bed nice and early.
OP
Thanks! The hair and makeup timeline is a good point.
Could you say more about your last couple sentences, regarding brunch weddings being the least fun, vibe is off, etc? At this point, we’re not committed to the brunch timeline, so would be interested if you have any other feedback on this type of wedding.
Anon
I started hair and makeup for my 11 am wedding at 9 am. I’m fairly low maintenance and wore minimal make-up but we did have our hair professionally done. The hotel’s spa had several staff members (I think 3) to do hair for me + five bridesmaids. I have been a bridesmaid in four or five evening weddings and we’ve never started hair and makeup EIGHT HOURS in advance. That’s banana crackers to me. 2-3 hours is plenty unless you have a gigantic wedding party and only one hairstylist. I also didn’t force my bridesmaids to have their hair styled – if they’d wanted to sleep in and meet us at the venue at 10:45, that would have been completely fine with me, but they all opted to have their professionally hair done (I was paying).
I loved our brunch wedding. It was tons of fun, with lots of dancing (which I wanted). We had a beautiful setting right on the water and the food and champagne were incredible. Over 90% of people we invited came and we got tons of compliments from guests. People here can be SO grumpy about weddings, but your plans sound lovely. Most of your guests will be delighted to celebrate you whatever time you choose and those who are pearl clutchy about a brunch wedding can stay home.
Anon
Two hours for hair / make up is very short though. Usually hair is allotted ~1 hour and makeup is allotted ~45 minutes per person. The bride, bridesmaids, and select family members (mother of the bride, mother of the groom) all need ~ 1.75 hours for hair and makeup. Time also needs to be built in for getting dressed, transit, having breakfast / lunch, and some buffer.
On top of the getting ready time, you have pre-wedding photos (details, getting ready photos, bride + family, bride + bridesmaids; also groom / groomsmen getting ready, groom + family, groom + groomsmen). Some couples also prefer to do photos with each other / the whole wedding party pre-ceremony so that they don’t have to spend their cocktail hour doing photos.
So, while the bridesmaids / bride may start their day bright and early start, it’s not 8 hours of hair and makeup.
Anon
I understand it takes an hour or two per person to do hair and makeup but don’t know why it can’t happen in parallel? Every wedding I’ve been in with a big wedding party they’ve had multiple people doing hair. I don’t think I’ve ever started hair and makeup as a bride or bridesmaid more than 2-3 hours before the wedding regardless of whether it was a daytime or evening wedding. I would be inwardly horrified at being asked to show up at 8 am for a 4 pm wedding to spend eight hours getting ready, and I’m glad none of my close friends put that much emphasis on glam.
Re: photos, we didn’t do photos before the ceremony. Not because of timing, but because we felt strongly that we didn’t want to see each other until the ceremony. We did ~15 minutes of formal portraits with our families and the wedding party right after the ceremony while the other guests had drinks and appetizers, and then my husband and I did a couple hours of photography just us and the photographer after the reception and went all around the local area for the most scenic shots. That actually worked out great because the light for outdoor photography is better in late afternoon than mid-day, and we didn’t keep our guests waiting.
Anon
For reasons I don’t entirely understand, it is considerably cheaper to have 2 people doing hair / makeup for 4 hours than it is to have 4 people doing hair / makeup for 2 hours. Additionally, many locations don’t necessarily have room for 4 people to set up to do hair / make up.
The last time I had hair / makeup done, there were 3 people (they all did both hair and makeup). We got there at 8AM and did hair/make up until about 1. They had to do 7 bridesmaids, the bride, the mother of the bride, and the mother of the groom. 1-1:45 was lunch / getting dressed / any last minute things and then we had photos for about 90 minutes (just with bride, her family, bridesmaids; they didn’t do any bride / groom photos pre-ceremony), and then took the shuttle to the venue and got ready for the ceremony.
Anon
I posted above about a dinner party wedding, which is what we had. I used to be a wedding photographer and was in a sorority so I’ve been to probably 1,000 weddings (slight but barely exaggeration). Brunch weddings are just subdued. It’s hard to get a celebratory vibe on early in the morning. Think more royal wedding than party atmosphere. They tend to feel like Easter at church versus a party. Totally okay if that’s what you’re going for. I saw your motivation is avoiding dancing and I think you have a lot more options. I had observed the “sea parting split” at weddings when dancing starts (older guests and those looking to book it take off when the DJ starts) and I didn’t want that. We designed ours to be the best dinner party ever. We had a long cocktail hour with heavy apps, seated people with a chart but after dinner and before dessert encouraged people to move around and had a lot of seating areas. We also peppered the night with toasts, which was lovely. People had a great time. We did have some music playing for ambiance, but it was piped in (we did it at a restaurant and kept it on the small side).
Anon
Okay, but this is what you did, because you (and I am assuming your now-husband?) wanted this and could afford it. Maybe OP doesn’t want or can’t afford an event like that. It’s like you’re looking for people to validate the choices you made for your wedding by adopting those choices for their own event. Is that what’s going on here? Because that’s super-weird given that we’re all anonymous here (for the most part) and you don’t even know who OP is. Why does our validation of what you did matter to you? You did what you wanted for your wedding and you liked it and you think other people did too. Wow, fantastic! Good for you! Your choices may not be the right choices for everyone. I find it kind of weird I have to explicitly say that.
OP
Your wedding sounds lovely! Super helpful to hear about an evening wedding without dancing.
Out of curiosity, how did you encourage people to move around after dinner? Any specific suggestions or ideas?
Anon
12:07, why so hostile? I’m answering OP’s questions not validating what I did. She said she didn’t want dancing and that’s what’s making her consider brunch. She doesn’t sound committed to the concept.
But whatever, OP – we told our friends the game plan to move around and not feel stuck in their seats. We got up and moved too, and we also had long breaks between courses so the timing lent itself to moving around. Being in a restaurant helped a lot, I think – they had some extra chairs around that people used to pull up and move out of formation, so to speak. It also helped that our guests all pretty much knew each other – we entertain a lot and have a lot of crossover in our friend groups, so people welcomed the opportunity to catch up. Everyone also had a +1 so that helped to the extent someone didn’t know the others, but I don’t think anyone didn’t know at least 2-4 other people well already. It was warm and celebratory and wonderful. I think you could skip dancing at any time of day, personally.
Anon
Anon at 12:07, you’ve been all over this thread with passive-aggressive comments about people sharing their opinions / experiences.
I’m glad you loved your wedding and have a great marriage, but no need to talk down to others who are expressing opinions of their own.
Brunch weddings without dancing are, for many people (though certainly not everyone) non-traditional. People are sharing their opinions / experiences with these types of weddings and what they liked and didn’t like as either the bride or a guest. She asked a question and is getting input. No need to jump on everyone who has a different view than you do.
Anon
We had a brunch wedding – ceremony was at 11 and we ended at 3, same as what you’re contemplating – and everyone at the wedding had to travel pretty far other than a small handful of people. We had the wedding on Saturday, to give people time to come in the night before and then have a free night before they left on Sunday. We ended up going out to dinner with all our friends the night of the wedding, completely impromptu, and it was an absolute blast, just FYI. A lot of our relatives ended up having dinner together and talked about how nice it was to have the space to do that. So, my vote is for Saturday, especially since your people are coming in from the West Coast.
Anon
Saturday.
A wedding in upstate New York with lots of west coast guests means that Sunday will be a full day of travel. Guests will likely have a layover + a long drive to the airport (since you refer to it as Upstate and not “just outside of Albany / Rochester / Buffalo / Syracuse” I’m thinking it’s far from a decent sized airport… which also means they’ll have to rent a car), meaning they could easily be traveling for 10+ hours on Sunday. Of course, having this on Saturday means that guests will have to do do the 10+ hours of travel on Friday too.
Do you have any plans for guests for Friday or Saturday nights? Traveling 20 hours round trip for a 4 hour wedding is a lot to ask. Nowadays most weddings include some combination of welcome drinks, an after party and / or a farewell brunch, in addition to a wedding / reception that’s usually 6ish hours, so even when guests have to travel far, there’s “bang for their buck”. Not that I attend weddings based on bang for my buck, but I think traveling 20 hours for a 4 hour daytime reception (which, would be less enjoyable for me than a traditional nighttime one) would be a lot to ask.
Anon
Agree with all of this. I’ve done the long flight – rental car – 90+ minute drive thing and it was my least favorite wedding. It felt like I spent more time traveling than I did at the destination. All that for a 4 hour daytime party? No thanks. OP should add more events, make it a longer evening wedding, or rethink the location.
Anon
I had two weddings this year where I spent more time traveling (about 30 hours) than I was in town for the wedding (about 24 hours).
Anon
+ 1. Unless you were mg bff, I would be skipping this wedding. It sounds like it would be 20ish hours of travel for many of your guests and could easily cost almost $2k per guest. That’s not worth it for a 4 hour wedding to me
Anon
Is there a certain number of hours of wedding-related activities that would make it worth it to you?
I guess I just have never thought about it as “I’m only going to this wedding if it’s a decent entertainment ROI for me, meaning if I outlay $2k the wedding has to last 8 hours, or it’s not worth it.”
If I get invited to a wedding and one member of the wedding couple is important to me, and I want to support them, I go to the wedding. I don’t really look at it as “this better be worth my while!”
Anon
People here are so weird about weddings.
Anonymous
I wouldn’t expect a certain number of hours of entertainment in return for my travel investment, and I am frankly put out at the scope creep that has turned weddings into three-day affairs with a welcome dinner on Friday, wedding and reception on Saturday, and brunch on Sunday. The factors I weigh against one another are how important the couple is to me on one side, and the expense/hassle/PTO on the other side. If you are not my BFF I am not going to give up one or two of my precious PTO days and spend a large chunk of my annual vacation budget to attend to your wedding, no matter how entertaining it is.
Anon
I commented below that I always attend weddings (I have yet to turn down an invite) because I love my friends and I’m excited to celebrate with them, but I spend a LOT of time and money doing so.
Earlier this year I traveled nearly 40 hours (including connecting flights both ways, a redeye, delayed flights, and a missed connection due to the flight delay) and spent about $1,500 to go to a friend’s wedding. I spent more time traveling than I did in town for the wedding.
Later this year I’m driving 12 hours each way (alone) for a wedding, because my options were drive or fly into a larger airport for $400 + rent a car (also $400) to drive to the town 90 mins away. There were no flights to the regional airport (where I’d still need to rent a car) that fit the itinerary. The hotel for this wedding is also $350 / night and I need to be there for two nights. Taking 3 days off of work, since each leg of the drive is a full day too.
I don’t think of weddings as ROI, but at least I was getting a very nice meal (filet, raw bar during cocktail hour, “late night snacks” during after party) and a fun night of drinking and dancing, plus more dancing at afterparty at both weddings, plus an extra event (welcome drinks for both).
I love my friends, I always show up, and I’m (mostly) happy about it, but asking someone to spend thousands of dollars and a long day of travel to come to your wedding is a lot.
Anon
I’m the 11:25 commenter. I can deal with half a day each direction but for that particular wedding I spent my entire Sunday traveling (8am-9pm). It’s sad but when I think about that weekend I remember the miserable flight and drive more than the actual wedding. I decided my line in the sand is spending a full day traveling. FWIW I live in the middle of a country near an airport with tons of direct flights so I’m only declining truly unreasonable destinations.
Anon
Re: scope creep. Welcome drinks, brunch, the after party are all optional events. Many guests opt out of those events, but they’re nice for out of town guests who are in town fir the whole weekend and may not have other things to do.
Anon
The good news is an invitation is not a summons! I bet plenty of OP’s friends will be happy to come and some might choose not to. Nbd, that’s true of any wedding.
Anon
It’s hard to make your guests choose between not attending the wedding of a loved one or paying $2k + some PTO to do so.
I will always choose to show up. But, I will also be salty that by choosing to show up for my friends I had to spend lots of money and time traveling.
Anon
Nope nope nope. If the money and time is an imposition, you’re absolutely free to not attend. An invitation is not a summons. You don’t get to be salty about how your friends choose to celebrate their marriage. It’s their day, not yours. When you get married you can do whatever you want.
Anon
I guarantee your friends would rather you not come than be bitter about it.
Anon
I mean is anyone in a good mood about any travel that costs $2,000 and a full day to travel?
Anon
“But, I will also be salty that by choosing to show up for my friends I had to spend lots of money and time traveling.”
Then you should not go. Just don’t go to the wedding; you’ll be doing yourself and your friends a favor. TBH, I would hate it if my friends were secretly angry and resentful that they “had to” attend my wedding and didn’t think I offered them enough bang for the buck, or whatever. I’d rather that the person just not be there.
Anon
Yeah, if you could have planned a wedding that isn’t an expensive, long-traveled, PITA to get to and you chose not to then I will still come and celebrate you, but I will be a little bitter that I am spending PTO and a thousand dollars, or more, (both of which are tight for people in their 20s and 30s) to attend.
Anon
Anon at 2:57, you’re not the only guest. My wedding was very convenient for some people and not for others and there is literally no place on Planet Earth that would have been convenient for parents, siblings, and wedding party, let alone the 100 people most important to us.
Anon
Yeah, I don’t understand how you have a wedding that’s local to everyone, unless you’re like my high school classmates who (to quote the Dixie Chicks song) married their high school sweethearts and moved into houses in the same zip code where they grew up. I moved from the Midwest to the northeast for college, then married a guy from a different part of the Midwest who’d gone to college on a different part of the east coast and at the time we got married we were living in California with a big group of friends out there for my husband’s grad program. There was literally no way we could have found a location that didn’t involve serious travel for at least 80% of our guests. Thankfully our guests were a lot more understanding than the grouchy commenters here.
Anon
I live in a small city, think Greenville SC. I wanted my guests to either have a cheap and hopefully direct flight into the big city airport that’s an hour away (think a slightly closer version of CLT), or a flight into the local regional, and from there, they didn’t even really need to rent a car. Hotel provides airport shuttles and other guests offered rides from the hotel to the church and reception.
Ultimately, you can’t have a non-direct flight into a small regional airport AND any substantial amount of driving – it’s just too many steps and too expensive.
Anon
+1 that you need some combination of affordable, easy, and convenient for guests.
While I’d never skip a wedding due to inconvenience, I do spend a lot of time and money shlepping to weddings to show up for my friends. I love them and I’m happy to do it, but if I have to fly + rent a car and drive, I’m going to be cranky. Especially with the cost of rental cars these days!!
Anon
You wouldn’t believe the nonsense people suggested to me. Understand that people came in from four time zones and twenty states. A few choice suggestions:
1. Have an 11 am morning wedding and a 2 pm reception so that people can relax and change attire. (Me: I am going to serve food at a standard meal time; the entire point of an 11 am ceremony is so apps can be served at 12 and full buffet at 12:30.)
2. Have the wedding in my expensive, expensive hometown (where I no longer live) during high tourist season when hotel occupancy rates are just shy of 100% and are $400 a night.
3. “You need to have it at X Fancy Name Venue That Everyone Has Heard Of.” Said venue is 45 minutes from the church (where my husband is a deacon, so that location was non-negotiable) and 45 minutes from any airport.
I started with logistics and backed that into a wedding plan, if that makes sense.
Anonymous
“I started with logistics and backed that into a wedding plan, if that makes sense.”
This is the polite and considerate way.
Anon
Yes, I think any couple having a wedding should start with the logistics and back into wedding planning with that.
Anonie
Sure, in that case Sunday is definitely better. People can use Saturday as the travel day, then leave Sunday night, rather than having to take Friday off work.
Anon
Man nothing like a wedding thread to bring out the claws. OP the problem you’re running into is that everyone recently married (or in at least one case, not so recently) believes the way they did it is the One and Only One Way.
Your brunch sounds lovely. I’d prefer a Saturday brunch if I am traveling to it.
Anon
Weddings are a perfect storm. In what other situation does an acquaintance dictate what you’ll wear, what you’ll eat, where you’ll sleep, and where you’ll travel to? No wonder people have strong opinions! Weddings should be a happy occasion but they’ve morphed into a circus. The hosts ask a lot of their guests these days.
Anon
I don’t think most people go to weddings for mere acquaintances, especially not ones that involve travel! Also the couple doesn’t normally dictate where you sleep (what??) or what you’ll wear if you’re not in the wedding party, and I’ve never been to a wedding where I didn’t have a choice of at least a few meal options. Also none of this is new!? It’s been true since our grandparents got married that the hosts chose the location and the venue and the catering…. Some things about weddings have gotten out of hand in the social media era, but it’s not the things you listed.
Anonymous
That’s exactly what I did! Sunday morning wedding with lunch reception. Although I see a lot of people recommending Saturday, we needed to have it on Sunday for religious reasons, and people were able to travel Sunday afternoon/evening. We didn’t have a higher than expected rate of declinations.
Anon
The number of responses with people somewhere between bemused and horrified at the idea of drinking and dancing during daylight hours has me bemused and wondering many things. Are these people vampires? Have these people never been to New Orleans to have fun? Are my friends and I party-hard degenerates? Can I help you find your sense of fun? There is a term “day drinking” but am I going to have to admit that “day dancing” is not in common usage? Can I mount a one woman campaign to start “day dancing”?
OP I think your brunch wedding sounds delightful, drinking or not, dancing or not. Also my vote would be for Saturday if people are traveling.
Anon
Nothing brings out the snobbery here like wedding talk.
Anon
Looking for a new work bag. Ideally $150 or less. I’m really open to anything; if a fancy bag on sale or a $40 bag from Target fits the bill, I’m fine with either.
Must haves:
– Tote or convertible backpack / tote style.
– Large enough to carry lunch and laptop, with a little room to spare (for days I need to bring something else too)
– At least 2 interior pockets; ideally one of them would zip.
– A zip top.
– Something that is aesthetically pleasing.
Preferences / nice to haves:
– Luggage strap
– Key leash
– Additional interior and/or exterior pockets.
– “Vegan leather”, but I’m open to other materials. In general, I don’t like the look of nylon (can’t stand the look of the OG / OMG bags), but I could get behind a nicer nylon. Leather is likely out of budget and too heavy.
Cuyana is out of my budget. Madewell bags are fine, but I don’t love them.
anon
I (more accurately my back) is team backpack for work, and I’ll bring a small purse if I am going out somewhere. It’s a bit above your price point, but did you look at any of the Briggs & Riley backpacks? If you aren’t familiar with the brand, it’s the less paying for the name brand version of Tumi.
Anon
I just don’t like the look of backpacks and I don’t have to carry my bag very far. When I had a walking commute I was team backpack but now I”m on the subway and prefer a tote for looks and safety reasons.
TheElms
I like the Calpak Haven Laptop tote. The tote itself doesn’t have a zip top but the insert does. Otherwise I think it checks all the boxes except key leash, but it has a lot of pockets so one could be a dedicated key spot.
anon
Matt and Nat? https://us.mattandnat.com//products/abbi-tote-bag-loom?variant=39805278224517&gclid=CjwKCAjwvJyjBhApEiwAWz2nLaplasNDlv7wKgiR5DEPdCi1SW5H4g84lCVPFUsG8PAZXGPLlrEI3xoC8ucQAvD_BwE
anon
I saw this at Target this morning and it looked really nice in person, especially in the taupe.
https://www.target.com/p/work-tote-handbag-a-new-day/-/A-81999825?preselect=81543064#lnk=sametab
anon
Ooh, I like this.
Anonymous
I just bought the Rafa backpack from Italic for $85. https://italic.com/products/rafa-nylon-backpack
I’m obsessed with it. I have to carry two laptops for work atm and it fits those, a charging cord and my lunch which is usually two 4 cup Pyrex glass containers (I need a better lunch system). With all that crap it’s heavy but manageable – I’m 5’3”. You could also easily put a water bottle and change of clothes in. It fits all your basic criteria: two interior pockets: one for laptop and one zipper one that’s for personal items. It also has a small exterior zipper pocket too: I haven’t even used that yet. No key leash but it does have a luggage strap. It is not leather, but to my eye looks professional. I was deciding between that and a black backpack from surprise by Kate spade. To me that one seemed kind of twee, at least for my work (trying to be taken seriously by my male counterparts). You might also look at Portland Leather. I already have a Portland leather tote so getting the backpack seemed like overkill but I adore their bags.
Anonymous Canadian
I love my Knomo London Grosvenor Place. The 15 inch version might fit your needs. It’s nylon but it looks lovely and I am happy it’s so light. No key leash but surely there’s a hack for that? They go on sale with some frequency.
PJ
If you raise your budget to $200: look at Mina Baie Stevie. Marketed as a diaper bag but has everything you’re looking for
Anon
Oh wait, that is PERFECT! Thank you so much!!!
Jules
This place also has great vegan bags, thanks for the rec.
Winter
Not the op, but I love this. Do you think the Sand could be a year-round color, or is that spring-summer only?
Anon
Dagne Dover signature or legend tote! I got mine on Poshmark for under 150.
Anonymous
I wouldn’t rule out Cuyana if you’re willing to go up to $150. I got mine used for less than that and it’s in amazing condition—the leather really does wear like iron as everyone has said.
Know which model you want and keep your eye on resale places (eBay, ThredUp, Posh)
drinks
After not drinking much alcohol during COVID etc.. I find that I can’t really handle alcohol anymore. The next day I feel so terrible, so I happy to stop drinking. The downside is one of my favorite hangout places is a small local bar where my friends are often performing musicians so I like to go to with them.
What is your favorite non-alcoholic drink option? Would love some suggestions of things that aren’t carbonated. I must be the only person on earth who doesn’t like the bubbles….
I’d like some simple options that a neighborhood bar (where most people are drinking beer) can handle. But if you have some favorite fancier options, I’m happy to learn about them.
PolyD
Would the bartender be willing to make you some kind of mock tail? Otherwise, I am not a fan of juice, but most bars probably have some around as mixers, so maybe you could just ask for cranberry juice or whatever.
Another thought is that, if you stir a carbonated beverage vigorously, the bubbles flatten out. You could try that with some carbonated drinks if you like them otherwise.
Anonymous
+1 I like mostly flat tonic water.
Anonymous
Water, lemonaide, iced tea.
Curious
Arnold Palmers! if you can stand the caffeine
TheElms
A tequila sunrise is grenadine, OJ and tequila. You could have just the grenadine and OJ on ice. I’d normally add non alcoholic sparkling wine or sprite or ginger ale or soda water but you could try it without or just a small amount.
Anonymous
Any good bartendender will know how to make a variety of non-alchoholic cocktails. Just ask.
That said, I also hate carbonated drinks and my favorite non-alcholic cocktail is a shirley temple.
Anonymous
This. Get to know one of the bartenders (if you haven’t already) and ask them to make you a mock tail. Most of them really enjoy it, provided they’re not totally slammed. This should go without saying but please tip the same as if the bartender were serving you an alcoholic drink.
Anonymous
What types of drinks do you like? I find most mocktails waay too sweet, so I’ve asked for things like diet tonic and lime plus a splash of ginger ale, or lemonade cut with seltzer (stir to break up the bubbles). During pregnancy I drank a lot of diet sprite, cranberry, and lime drinks. You may want to see if the bar carries low alcohol versions of wine/beer – that’s increasingly an option at many places!
OP
I like a mojito, gimlet, greyhound… so maybe a little sour?
Anon
When I was pregnant, I had water and french fries.
Anon
Perfect. You win.
Anonie
I think your options are basically carbonation or juices (or water). My non-drinking go-to is club soda with lime. For a neighborhood bar, with no bubbles, I guess I’d say… mint lemonade?
Anon
My husband’s in a bar band so I get this. I have rosacea so I usually have one drink, then switch to club soda, sometimes iced tea. Cocktail waiters are usually very nice about this.
In a situation where you order at the bar, order when your friends are ordering booze – in my experience, the bartenders have been salty about me ordering a Diet Coke at the bar and nothing else. But since my husband’s band is usually playing for free beer and tips, sometimes a door charge but not usually, if I tell the bartender I’m with the band and the designated driver, the attitude usually lifts.
Other non-alcoholic suggestions – Bloody Mary mix, club soda with a splash of cranberry, ginger ale, a club soda with a ton of lime wedges, pineapple juice if they serve tiki drinks. I don’t usually like the “virgin” versions of fancy cocktails (bloody Mary excepted)
OP
Thanks for your thoughts – yes, my situation is similar to yours, including the Rosacea! But now my body can’t even handle 1 drink.
Really appreciate everyone’s suggestions. Thanks a bunch.
Anon
If you liked a gin and tonic back in the days of drinking, tonic water with a couple of lime wedges and a bit of Roses lime juice which has a bit of sweet to it is a nice drink. Bonus points if the bar if foofy enough to have grapefruit tonic water.
Anon
What’s your toxic trait?
Mine is dwelling on what I should have said during arguments with friends or family to better “win.” Also not wanting to let my husband be “lazy” when we should be out “doing stuff.”
Anonymous
Mine is assuming the worst case outcome and letting feelings of dread build and build. Then I do the thing and nothing bad happens. Sometimes something good even happens but the next opportunity I assume the worst case again. I actually take all the fun out of life myself for no reason.
here she goes
Oh interesting thread. My toxic trait is that I basically always think I’m right/know what is correct. I will recognize that I don’t know something and will also choose to not have opinions about things I’m not informed about, but in the back of my brain am being somewhat self-righteous still about being right that I don’t know the thing.
I also have a toxic habit of being a slight spendthrift. Not to the point where it is a problem that we can’t pay our bills and save for retirement, but my cc bills (get paid off everything) are too high.
Cb
Oh I’m always right, and I will often nitpick my husband about low stakes stuff. Like who cares if he’s wrong?
Anon
My husband says I always think I’m right (I usually am.) I say it wouldn’t be my opinion if I didn’t think it was right.
anon
I have so much fun gossiping and sh*t talking. It’s my guilty pleasure.
Anon
Me too! And it’s so hard to find someone to enjoy it with haha!
anon
True! Sometimes I’ll type out a juicy text and delete before sending. Gets it out of my system, doesn’t burden someone else with my Emperor Palpatine thoughts… let the hate flow through you!
Anon
I get hangry. I’ve learned to recognize the signs and to keep my mouth shut until I eat something.
Anon
Me too! It took me until I was 30 to learn to listen to my body and eat before I got hangry otherwise I went full on meltdown.
Anon
Haha I get hangry too. Hangry pregnant was THE WORST. thankfully that’s well behind me so now I just deal with regular hangry.
I’m also not super chatty in the mornings, my husband is bright and chipper in the morning but grumpy in the evening when I’m just hitting my stride. Somehow we’ve managed to stay married.
AIMS
Ooh I can relate to the lazy part!
I think my other one is I have a tendency to let perfect be the enemy of the good, which often leads to me doing nothing because what’s the point if it’s not perfect.
Anonymous
Um. Literally every one that’s already been listed is my toxic trait. I’m always right, I love gossip (I’m actually working on this one), I guess I don’t get super hangry after years of DH being like maybe you should eat something. I think my true toxic trait is the need to control every aspect of my life. Kids are curing me of that though.
Anon
My inability to enjoy the present because I’m stuck on existential, unanswerable questions (what am I doing with my life???).
Very Anon
Almost everyone disappoints me. No matter what they do, it just falls short of my expectations and it’s certainly lightyears below what I would have done. It’s horrible to feel like this and I’m working on it.
anon
This is me too. I have exacting expectations that very few people (if anyone) can live up to. This applies to me too. I have a difficult time understanding human limitations and why you wouldn’t just choose to be different and work torward it if you knew you had a limitation
Anon
This is totally me too, though I didn’t realize until just now what it was until I saw it typed out. It’s terrible for both my mental health and my relationships. I need to fix it.
Curious
I’m a know it all, and I get awful if I feel cornered.
Anon
My main toxic trait is that I have long conversations with myself about the boundaries I will set with people (with family/friends or at work, etc.) and then when the time comes to set the boundary, I chicken out and go into people-pleasing mode and just say yes to whatever. Then I’m mad at myself for not setting the boundary I wanted to set, and irrationally mad at the other person because they didn’t “let” me set my boundary, which was of course up to me to set out, and not up to them to magically intuit.
My other toxic traits are: over-committing my time and then having to either do too much (and then I get exhausted) or having to extricate myself from commitments (I’ve gotten a lot better at this), and also overthinking things from the past – past interactions, past relationships, etc. re-playing them in my head over and over to see if I could have made things work out differently. This has gotten better after I did some cognitive-behavioral therapy that taught me techniques to stop playing the “mental movies” over and over, but it’s still a struggle sometimes. I do it a lot when I get generally anxious about other things.
Anon
Ummm…did I write this?? I relate to your first paragraph so hard.
ArenKay
I also feel seen by this entire entry. Thank you.
Anon
Me too.
Anon
The overthinking past interactions is completely me. I’m in therapy but would love to hear what techniques you used for this. I’ve tried a few and they’ve only marginally helped.
Anonymous
I once had a personality test during a management training tell me that I was prone to playing favorites. And it couldn’t be more spot on. I tend to like and trust who I like even if they screw up and I’m trying to be more fair about that.
Anonymous
I procrastinate on the web.
Anon
lol same
Anon
Me three!
A huge procrastinator, but I get things done when I have a deadline.
anon
Lol, we’re all here, aren’t we?
Anon
Oh… that.
Anon
I’m slowly working on this, but I have am far too independent for my own good and have a hard time asking for help or support. It’s getting better, but it took me a lot of therapy and a traumatic experience to get me to even this point
go for it
+1
Anon
This thread is amazing.
Thanks for sharing.
Anon
I would rather be right than happy.
Anon
Hahaha I’m so close to you on this scale.
Another Anon
Me: I have the right of way
Husband: do you want to be right or do you want to be alive
Anon
I get upset and frustrated if I dont understand something when someone is explaining it to me, and when I get that way I pay attention less so the problem compounds.
I feel slow, can’t hold things in my mind, and I often need to visually understand things (see it drawn out, write it out or take notes myself), and can’t follow with just audio input.
This happens often with my husband who will explain things rapidly to me without visual aids and the conversation ends badly. Sometimes, I need new things explained like I’m 5.
Anon
I always think people should be doing something faster – especially typing something into their phone, or worse, when they borrow my phone and take forever. I find them annoying and I KNOW they find me annoying!
Anonymous
I absolutely underestimate the time it takes me to get places.
Josie P
Tips for not getting deodorant on black tank tops/dresses when you put them on? Somehow even if the last time I put on deodorant was the day before, it always gets on the side of the tank! Rrgh.
Mrs. Jones
I don’t know how to avoid that so I’d just wipe it off with a damp washcloth afterward.
Anon
I don’t have time to find a link, but I wear the Dove deodorant that promises no white marks on 100 colors – pretty accurate for me! Otherwise, yes, wet washcloth.
Anonymous
I have been wearing this forever and I can’t relate to this question at all. I don’t ever have residue from the day before, even on the rare occasion I don’t shower before dressing. That seems like too much deodorant of any kind but just isn’t a thing with this brand. I also put it on after I am dressed.
Anon
Put on your shirt then apply deodorant. If you’re wearing deodorant from the day before then you’re probably not so fresh and should use a soapy washcloth before getting dressed. For sleeveless tops I put on deodorant, hold a dry towel against the edge of the arm holes, then lower my arm so that any excess deodorant rubs off on the towel instead of my shirt.
Anon
Can you put it on after you get dressed? Or maybe blot your armpits?
Anon
I always fold the bottom half of my shirt up (so the inside is on the outside) before putting it on, then any mark gets on the inside of the shirt only.
Anon
Have you tried switching to a clear gel deodorant?
Anon
Clear gel “invisible” deodorant still sometimes leaves marks.
Anon
I wash my armpits with a benzoyl peroxide face wash when I shower. Voila! No odor during the day. If I’m worried about perspiration I use certain dri the day before a stressful or hot event.
Anon
Put deodorant on after you put your clothes on.
anon
Looking for some advice on an issue with my husband. For the most part, he’s a great dad and mostly great husband, though he has anger problems and an unwillingness to take responsibility for his actions.
To preface, he has a minor case of cerebral palsy which limits his fine motor abilities and means he can’t do as much around the house as most partners would expect. He is generally engaged in other ways but it pains me to hire things out that I can’t do and feel other women’s husbands are able to do (e.g., changing lightbulbs that require a ladder, painting when I am pregnant). He is also, to put it bluntly, a bull in a china shop. I’ve never had so many things break in my life as I have living with him and every time something happens he screams that something was in his way, the thing was breaking anyway, etc. Basically no responsibility. I know the CP is part of it, but I have daily conversations with him about slowing down, being more aware of his surroundings, etc.
We had a baby last year, I’m now back at work and he’s now on parental leave for another month. He’s never been very healthy or active but he’s gained a ton of weight since my pregnancy. I’ve been working to take off my pregnancy weight (15 lbs to go) and set a healthy example for our child, and it seems like he’s constantly trying to take us backward through buying unhealthy foods. Since he’s gained weight, he’s breaking even more things and I think it’s due to him just being a lot larger. Examples being walking into the wall with such force that he broke a picture frame, bumping into a cabinet to the point the cabinet breaks. I feel I cannot go a day without him breaking a coffee cup or hearing him yell a string of curse words because something broke on him (this morning’s example: he melted one of the baby’s bottles in the bottle warmer).
Every time I try to bring this up with him he gets angry and says I’m being unfair and everyone breaks things occasionally. While yes everyone breaks things, his combination of carelessness, extra weight, and the CP mean that he is basically a walking time bomb and I’m so fed up with it. I am so sick of replacing things that he breaks or dealing with our baby crying because of his yelling. He refuses to engage on the topic at all and takes zero responsibility. In other aspects of our marriage, while he tends to be defensive he will listen and often take steps to improve. On the topic of breaking things though, he’s unwilling to listen in a calm voice or engage at all and I feel like I’m married to a toddler who needs everything childproofed.
Thoughts?
Monday
This sounds really touchy, because both disability and weight gain are sources of shame. He might be blaming everything but himself because he’s ashamed and lashing out. I’d suggest couples counseling and maybe more info on accommodating his CP if you don’t already have it.
Anon
+1 Could depression be the cause of the weight gain? Because for me, depression doesn’t always mean sadness, it often means anger (quaintly listed as “irritability” in medical info).
Curious
Depression also makes me extremely clumsy, like stitches clumsy. This is the reason I’ll be on an antidepressant for life.
anon
Yup. I get stupid injuries when I’m dealing with a depression flare.
Anon
Oof the yelling part is inexcusable. That is something he needs to deal with, especially with a baby. The rest of it sounds like he is suffering with deep shame about his condition (and weight gain, though that could be trying to self sooth). Is he open to therapy? I’m not usually the one suggesting that on this board, but it sounds like he is reacting out of pain.
go for it
+1 Yelling is a hard nope for me, having grown up with a parent who did.
I just read a cartoon blurb on FB this morning titled “speak to me like you love me”.
anon
Yup. People are underestimating how damaging it can be to have a parent constantly yelling and irritable and angry. If the husband doesn’t change, the OP should really consider ending the marriage. I would not want a child to grow up in this environment.
Senior Attorney
I agree with this. I am terribly sympathetic to him on the merits (I have been fat-shamed by my spouse and it’s awful), but the yelling would be a dealbreaker for me. I’d insist that he go to therapy for it and if he didn’t change his ways, I’d leave.
Consider
Joint (you and DH) discussion with early childhood development specialist about the physical and cognitive developmental consequences of exposure to yelling/anger on an infant/toddler/small child?
here she goes
Your post reminds me of Michelle Obama talking recently about how she couldn’t stand Barack during the first 10 years of their daughters lives. I don’t have kids but that really stuck with me and rings true with what I see from the outside of my close friends and family who are parenting young kids. You are both doing a really hard stage of life with a new baby. Gently, I think you need to give him some grace, and also yourself some grace for being so annoyed at him.
Anyway listen to Michelle, she talks way more eloquently about it. I listened to her talk about it in the We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle podcast (definitely recommend), but here’s an article that sums up some of what she’s sharing lately – I’m assuming she expands on this in her new book too.
https://www.fatherly.com/news/michelle-obama-interview-book-tour-parenting-young-kids
Anon
Michelle rightfully hated Barack because (IIRC) he took a job she didn’t want him to took that took him away from the family most of the time. I think he was only home on weekends, and even then only sporadically? I remember one anecdote about him leaving her alone on a trip with sick kids. He was a great president, but he really did not sound like a good dad in her book. And obviously most men are not going to attain anywhere near the level of impact on the world that Barack Obama did.
I don’t think it’s normal to hate your husband just because you have kids. To bicker more or to have periods where you don’t feel very romantically or sexually connected, yes. But to say you “can’t stand” your husband is not normal based on the people I know.
Cora
Michelle has been talking a lot about this 10 year block where they didn’t get along and how young people need to learn to tough it out – but is that really normal? Sure you can have a couple rougher years but to not really like your husband for 10 years?
Anonymous
Nope. Not normal.
Anon
No, I don’t think it’s normal. I haven’t heard her talking about it, but I read her first book and it was clear from what she wrote there that Barack was completely checked out when the kids were little. Not good, and not normal. I think Michelle is a saint. I don’t think I could have stayed married to him. I hope she’s at least enjoying their new chapter as rich empty-nesters.
anon
I don’t think it’s normal at all.
Anon
It’s not. If she had posted here asking for advice, we’d have told her to divorce him.
Anon
Not normal, but also not normal to be married to a president.
Anon
He wasn’t the president at the time. He was a state senator I think? They were living in Chicago and he spent the workweek in Springfield and came back some of the weekends. Still not a “typical” job but also not necessarily one that’s worth the trade-off. Most state senators don’t really amount to anything special. I definitely would have told Barack ‘drop the job or drop me’ so I guess it’s good for America that Michelle was more supportive!
Anonymous
He wasn’t the president at the time, but he was certainly aiming to be. Ambitions to high political office require an enormous degree of sacrifice on the part of the entire family. This is why we have very few good people in office and a whole bunch of wackos. Very few good, well-intentioned people are willing to take on the burdens.
Anon
Right but I guess I’m saying as a wife I’d be more sympathetic to an absentee dad who was actually the president vs just aiming to be the president. The vast majority of people who “aim to be” something never get there, so I wouldn’t be willing to trash our family life for that.
CreditRisk
I don’t blame her at all for hating her husband for 10 years. She really worked hard to establish a career, overcoming poverty and racism. Along comes her husband who completely trampled over her career.
She then had to give up her career so he could pursue his. She had an amazing campaign which the nut jobs called maga continue to criticize. I remember the horrible comments about her appearance. Completely unacceptable and never an apology.
The fact she is still married to him makes me think the gardening must be top notch. Anyone else would have run for the hills.
Seventh Sister
As a GenX, one thing that frustrates me to no end is that for men of my generation, the only thing that many of them have to do to be better fathers than their own fathers is change a single diaper / put a baby down for a nap / not run off. The bar is really quite low. It’s really hard to have an actual domestic partnership when guys get cooed at for taking the baby to the grocery store or cooking dinner while women are excoriated for non-organic snack selections.
Anonymous
So much this. My GenX husband thinks he should get a medal for any parenting or household chores he does.
Anonymous
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where Barack cursed at her and yelled at her and made her walk on eggshells?
Anon
Did she actually say he cursed and yelled *at her*? Because a lot of people think the occasional cursing or yelling is really not that big a deal if it’s not directed at a person. Exclaiming “F&ck!” when you shatter a glass isn’t really in the same ballpark as screaming “Get away from me, you f&cking b1tch” at your wife.
Anon
Oh, I hadn’t thought of it this way. Yelling a cuss word when breaking something is “normal behavior” to me, whereas the latter would be complete beyond the pale.
Anon
I don’t disagree, but OP should be careful with this. I gave my ex-husband a lot of grace during the baby years. In hindsight, he was an abusive alcoholic. The yelling is really concerning to me.
Anon
This is obviously a very loaded subject, but my first thought is to separate the yelling from the breaking things. Things are just things and they don’t ultimately matter that much. I think if I were a person with a physical disability, I would be very upset if someone got mad at me for breaking things. But he does need to control the yelling.
Anonymous
He gets mad at her when he breaks things!
Anon
Yes, but she also said she’s sick of replacing things he breaks, which is a reaction that’s within her control, which is not really fair if it’s a result of a disability. He definitely needs to stop yelling and getting mad at her or taking out his frustration on her and the baby when he breaks things, that’s for sure – and I’m not trying to say that OP is causing his terrible reactions or anything. But it’s important for her to own her reactions just as he has to own his.
Anon
The yelling is not okay, I can see why he’s feeling defensive and upset if his breaking things is being viewed as somehow the action of a irresponsible child (as opposed to an adult with a kind of serious disability). He doesn’t want to break things; it’s not a choice he’s making. It’s just one of those disability taxes that comes from living in a world where our physical environments and belongings are typically designed for abled bodied people.
Anonymous
It is his own house, though. He should be making some changes to make it a safer environment.
Anon
+1. The yelling is problematic and needs to be addressed, but the breaking things is different. As frustrating as it is, I think you need to reset your standards for breaking things and just treat this like the new normal – and you will have a toddler soon anyway, so you will need to make that adjustment in lots of parts of your life. I also think, though, that he should talk to his doctor about any physical changes he is experiencing. You’ve framed this as a result of the disability plus the weight gain, but it might also be a new change in his health (disability progression or otherwise) that would have happened regardless of the weight gain and his doctor should know about that.
Also, as someone who is trying to lose weight and having trouble with it and whose spouse also wanted to lose weight and did so quickly and easily, there is nothing more annoying than being reminded of that. Everyone’s body is different, and stress can play a big role in the ability to lose weight for some people. I hear you saying you think he’s sabotaging your mutual weight loss quest, but you have to separate your goals from his and definitely do not make this about being an example to your kid. You are in charge of what you eat, and you both are in charge of what is offered to your kid.
However, he definitely needs to stop the yelling. You are 100% within your rights to address that with him repeatedly and ask him to get professional help. Get couples counseling, too.
Anonymous
I think the breaking things is a problem too. If he’s constantly breaking things then either he isn’t being careful or his environment is not configured correctly. Breaking things like cabinets on a daily basis is not something a disabled person or his family should have to tolerate.
Anon
Yes – when I said new normal I should have said that the OP and spouse should change their environment to accommodate his new needs. Move furniture, get non breakable dishes, etc. But the “being careful” is difficult, his disability may cause him to break things even if he is being careful – which I could understand would be incredibly frustrating especially if I used to be able to do that task without breaking things. This is really tricky.
anon
OP, I’m curious about how recently your DH has had a medical checkup. If the “breaking things” issue is getting worse, it’s very possible that his CP isn’t being managed well or he needs new accommodations. I’m not making excuses for him, but I imagine he’s operating from a lot of shame and embarrassment, which would explain the yelling and the not doing a good job taking care of himself pieces.
Anon
Melting the bottle in the bottle warmer is carelessness, not clumsiness. He sounds checked out. I’d be worried about him around the baby, to be frank.
Anonymous
Yes, that’s carelessness that could have started a fire. It’s convenient for him to blame the disability but there is more going on here.
Anonymous
+1000
anon
CP can cause other cognitive issues, so let’s not jump to him being checked out. It’s a problem, for sure, but I think the disability could be at play here.
Anonymous
If that’s the case then OP should be concerned about leaving him alone with the baby, letting him operate appliances, etc.
Anon
Oof. I think it’s fine talk to him about managing his anger, but be very very careful about blaming him for disability. I also have a (relatively minor) disability that affects my coordination and it’s frustrating enough to feel like a klutz and feel like I have no control over things when I run into things and injure myself or break things. If I also had to deal with the judgement of my spouse making me feel like I was being like a bad dad and husband because I can’t do certain things that are expected of men in our society, I might get a little ragey too. It really doesn’t sound like you respect him very much, and I suspect that’s coming across, which might be making his anger issues worse. I hope both of you can try to have some understanding for each other in a stressful time.
anon
I think OP can be more understanding towards the disability aspect, but the husband should be controlling his anger issues.
Anonymous
Do you have yourself a temper tantrum and yell and curse everytime you break something?
anon
Exactly. Having a disability doesn’t give you a free pass to act like a jerk. Everyone is going to have bad days and be in bad moods, but that should be the exception rather than the rule.
Anon
Nope. But if my spouse acted the way she did, I would feel so shamed that I very well might. And there’s pretty much no way I’d stay in that marriage. It’s actually sort of upsetting to see how judgmental people can be about things you can’t control and I’m incredibly grateful that my husband is a much more understanding person than OP. I get why she’s frustrated, but the discussion can’t focus on trying to blame him for something he can’t actually change. When he no longer feels shamed, I suspect she’ll have much better luck getting him to engage.
Anonymous
It’s such nonsense to tell a woman to just be nicer and hopefully her husband will stop yelling.
anon
It’s such nonsense to tell a woman to just be nicer and hopefully her husband will stop yelling.
Trish
She can control the utter disdain. When you belittle a person, expect a reaction. “I feel like I’m married to a toddler who needs everything childproofed.” Ooof.
busybee
The baby is entitled to a whole lot more grace and understanding than the spouse who can’t control his feelings. OP, your baby needs to come first and yelling and cursing is not a good environment for a baby. What’s going to happen when that baby becomes a toddler and throws tantrums/makes messes/disobeys? How will your husband handle that?
Trish
lol! How is she going to handle her baby breaking things?
Anonymous
Yes, the first thing mentioned is that he can’t do as much as other husbands. It’s important to focus on the partner you have. Don’t resent him for you having to get outside help when its outside his control.
He needs to control his temper and do what he can to mitigate the disability related clumsiness and pay more attention to things like heating bottles. You need to accept that he will never be someone not disabled.
Pep
My first thought is that he’s terrified and is lashing out (yelling) out of fear. Would he agree to therapy, alone or with you?
Cb
Yeah, I have lupus and when I’m in a flare, I definitely break more things and make more mistakes. A combination of pain and frustration.
anon
If he’s amenable, therapy for him to learn emotional management. Outbursts like this are harmful to everyone, but especially to children who learn to walk on eggshells and that yelling is an appropriate response to everyday frustrations.
If he’s not amenable to therapy, therapy for you to think through your next steps.
Senior Attorney
+1
Trish
Therapy for her to be more loving and accepting of THINGS BREAKING because he can’t control his limbs.
anon
The yelling needs to stop. I’m sure it is incredibly frustrating to break things, especially if it is due to a physical issue. But he has the ability to control his reactions. Even if he is not yelling at you, it’s not fun to be around someone like this. You mentioned that he is a “walking time bomb”. That is not a good thing. You don’t want to live your life constantly walking on eggshells around him. This is not a good environment for you or your child.
The biggest problem I see is that he refuses to engage in any type of discussion. You need to get into some kind of couples counseling immediately, especially now that you have a child. It’s bad enough for you, but I would hate for a child to grow up in this environment where they constantly wonder when their father is going to have a blow up.
If things don’t improve, I would seriously consider whether you want to stay in this relationship long term.
Anonymous
The consideration then would be “am I comfortable leaving my child alone with this explosive person”? No simple answers.
Anonymous
Just file for divorce. Honestly at this point who cares whether he is right or your are. You don’t like living like this, he won’t discuss it or change, get the divorce ASAP
Anon
This. Who wants a fat, clumsy husband who yells at you all the time?
Anon
Lol, pretty succint summary of the issue. Women bend over backward to save marriages with miserable men. No thanks.
Anonymous
I don’t mind fat and clumsy to be clear! But yelling? Hard pass.
Anon
Honestly, you sound like you have so much contempt for your husband. It sounds like – yelling aside – you had a problem with him not being able to change lightbulbs and also running into things, and that seems to have set off some shame triggers in him which is resulting in the yelling. I personally, would absolutely be driven mad by my spouse having “daily conversations” with me about slowing down. If your house setup isn’t working for him and his disability, then change that? I think you need to consider how your attitude toward him is contributing to this. Agree with other posters that the issues of yelling needs to be addressed completely separately from the other issues.
Anon
Yeah…the contempt really came through for me too. I think it’s weird how fixated you are on the fact that he can’t do things like change lightbulbs and paint. My husband and I do not have any disabilities and we hired someone to paint our house while I was pregnant. This is normal and assuming you have the money to outsource it, it’s no big deal.
I will also say on the yelling, is he yelling at you or is he just yelling a swear word when he breaks something? My husband and I both come from loud ethnic families and we always exclaim “oh $hit” or something like that when we break something. I gather from here there are WASPy families where no one every raises their voice or swears, but that’s not all families and not the one right way to be. Yelling at people is different though, and not ok.
Anon
I know this is unrelated but I also don’t understand why she can’t use a ladder and change lightbulbs?
Anon
It sounds like she wants very traditional gender roles and expects the man to be the one doing handy tasks around the home, which I find icky as someone who comes from a long line of women who have always been handier than their husbands.
Anon
This. My husband is pretty handy around the house but as he’s gotten older, his bum knees and worsening close vision (same age-related eye issues everyone gets, nothing special) make him less willing to do some tasks, and so either I have to do them or I have to hire them out. I absolutely can change light bulbs, get on the roof and figure out where a leak might be (and then call the roofer to come fix it), unclog a drain or a toilet, do other minor small house repairs, etc. if I have to. If I lived alone, I’d have to handle that stuff myself. I don’t get a pass on doing certain activities of daily living because I’m female. And p.s., my husband is slightly older than me and women live longer than men, so eventually it’s likely I will be doing some of these things for myself, if I end up widowed. Good idea to start now with learning how to be independent.
I get the frustration about breaking stuff, but the frustration about “he can’t do certain things around the house” is mystifying to me. He has CP, and I’m going to assume he had it when they got married? Did OP just…think it would magically get better, or something, immediately after the wedding? How was this not identified as a potential issue long before OP got to this point?
Anon
I understood the OP to refer to doing these things *while pregnant*. I would also not want to climb a ladder to change a lightbulb while pregnant.
Anon
The pregnant modifier was only on painting. Also “he is generally engaged in other ways but it pains me to hire things out that I can’t do and feel other women’s husbands are able to do” definitely reads like she thinks he should be doing these things simply because he’s male which is….not the best look.
Anon
I admit I’m stuck on this too. and her husband has a condition that presumably affects his dexterity, why on earth would she assume he would paint, or handle light bulbs?
anon
Agree with this. Couples counseling, stat. It sounds like there are frustrations on both sides, not just yours. And the contempt is going to kill your marriage, if it hasn’t already. And maybe look at small things you can change around the house to make everyone’s lives easier. Instead of breakable ceramic coffee mugs, have a couple of indestructible travel mugs that aren’t going to break if they’re dropped.
Anon
This. Sometimes changing the environment can have a dramatic effect on happiness.
Anonymous
+1. You both need help with this. I am guessing he is really hurt by your reaction to something he feels like he can’t control.
Anon
I agrée with all of this. I think you may need to analyze why you’re so upset about his inability to contribute around the house, his breaking things, and his weight gain. If you find at your core that it is because you do not respect or are otherwise contemptuous of him, then you need to acknowledge that and either work through it so that you no longer feel that way or exit the relationship. You are not doing him any favors by constantly judging him – he knows you’re doing it even if you aren’t using your words in an honest way to communicate it directly. For the weight I think the reality is that you cannot help him much other than to be supportive and make healthy choices easier. At the end of the day he has to make his own decision to lose weight (and believe me I know it’s hard – I put a lot of effort into exercise and eating well; my husband has gained 50 pounds during our marriage and it has been a…journey to accept that I cannot force him to lose that weight). For the breaking of things – yes anger is never acceptable, but do consider whether his shame and your annoyance contribute to his short fuse on this one thing (and it seems significant to me that you describe him as otherwise being a good partner – that suggests it is not an anger issue but a deep fear or frustration with this aspect of himself). Work with him to figure out how your home can accommodate his needs – the home is for the people in it, not the other way around. And if he is struggling with his disability, get help. As for not contributing around the house for things other husbands do – if it is his disability, LET IT GO. If some of it is laziness then consider whether you’re comparing him unfairly to men who aren’t doing the things he does do around the house (like childcare). And if you still think he just isn’t contributing enough, then sit down and make specific asks.
Anon
I agree with this. I heard a lot of contempt there in this difficult situation. Gottman time?
OP, how accessible is your home? Is the layout and design setting you both up to fail?
anonshmanon
This also stood out to me. OP, you have some actual grievances and regular yelling is not OK, but there is so much contempt bleeding through your post that I can’t imagine your communication style with your husband to be a productive one!
You are working to lose the baby weight to set a good example for the baby – that makes it sound like you have some hangups connecting body size with overall virtuousness and worthiness. I empathize that you want to give your kid the best start possible – but they will observe and internalize all that judgement, disability shaming and body shaming going on in the house.
Anon
Yes, that stood out to me too. Super gross and I hope this baby is not a girl.
Anonymous
+1
Anonymous
So I can understand the contempt. I am a fixer. If I have a problem I will do whatever I can to fix it. If I were OP’s husband I wouldn’t be breaking things because I would have moved all the furniture and bought melamine dishes. I wouldn’t be melting baby bottles because I would have come up with a system to ensure that there was always water in the bottle warmer, like keeping a cup of water next to the warmer. I have little patience for people who are unwilling at least to try to solve their problems. You have ADHD? Try executive function coaching, therapy, lists and organizational schemes, meds if necessary until you find the right workarounds so you can be functional and happy. Don’t use your disability as an excuse for not looking for strategies, forgetting to do essential tasks, and living in a pigsty. If OP’s husband won’t try to figure it out either he’s lazy and selfish, or he’s so depressed that he’s become hopeless.
Eliza
100%
anonshmanon
Can’t tell if you are completely serious, but maybe you were going for the toxic personality traits thread above?
Anonymous
Yes completely serious. Her husband’s behavior is contemptible, so how can we expect her not to feel contempt?
Anon
She has contempt for things that aren’t his fault though, like he can’t paint their house. I’m not excusing his behavior, but there’s clearly a LOT of contempt on her part that he has no control over (and imo aren’t a big deal at all — like seriously who cares if he can paint the house?)
anonshmanon
I meant the part of the post that had zero nuance or compassion, and instead was 100% this could never happen to me because I would find a solution for everything. That was the part that sounded hyperbolic. But good for you, must be hard to live among mortals.
Anon
It would be amazing if ADHD worked this way for everyone. Just find the right coaching, therapy, lists, organizational schemes, and meds that prevent you from forgetting essential tasks!
I hope you realize that people have been looking for strategies and trying different meds, coaches, therapists, and schemes for decades.
Anonymous
There is a difference between trying things that might not work and not trying anything, which is what OP’s husband is doing.
Anonymous
I have a family member with a disability who sometimes lashes out and blames others for problems caused by the disability. This behavior is absolutely unfair to OP. If the husband is unwilling to channel his frustration appropriately and/or to take actions to mitigate the impact of the disability (e.g., maintain a proper weight, configure the home environment to avoid collisions), then OP has some serious thinking to do.
The thing about changing light bulbs and painting is a little harsh, though. I have to do most of those things because my husband just isn’t very coordinated and has poor balance (even though he’s the one who was a varsity athlete in college, ha). I would rather be up on the ladder myself than have him up there because he’ll fall and I won’t. It does really annoy me when he wants to spend a ton of money hiring someone to do a mediocre job of a task that one of us could have done better ourselves but I just didn’t have time to do, but I suppose that’s the cost of admission.
Anon
dying to know what the specific rubrics of a “proper weight” are
anon
You have my sympathy. DH breaking things is the single worst thing about being married. I wish I were single or could move out every single time it happens.
Nobody else has asked this yet, so I will. Is there any chance he is breaking things in anger and then acting like it was an accident? The fact that the breakage is happening at the same time as the anger is why I wonder.
Anonymous
I think you need to spend some time learning more about his health issues so you can understand what is going on, and not blame him for his symptoms. Then you can approach this from a place of empathy and jointly figuring out how to make the household easier to manage.
Anon
I’m in the let it go or break up camp. It doesn’t sound like he’s yelling at you, just having a tantrum when things break (both my husband and I will curse loudly if we break stuff, but followed w a “sorry, not mad at you, mad I did X”). The idea of having the same fight or conversation every day is just exhausting. At some point you just have to accept things or change things by moving on.
Anonymous
I think he needs to grow up and stop yelling, but he also needs to figure out how to stop breaking things. Why on earth is he crashing into walls and cabinets on a daily basis? That sounds dangerous, for him and for your child. Is he refusing to use necessary aids such as crutches or a walker? Is he refusing to set up the furniture to allow adequate clearance? Is he trying to do things he shouldn’t be doing or in a way in which he shouldn’t be doing them? If I were your husband I would not put up with crashing into walls and breaking stuff. I’d be looking for solutions.
Anonymous
Hugs. This sounds really really hard. I would be afraid he would fall on the baby. The yelling and cursing are unacceptable. My husband has never cursed at me in 30 years of marriage. It sounds like he needs help to deal with his disability and his anger but if he is not inclined to get it I don’t know what you can do short of leaving. Occupational therapy would help with the physical issues. Anger problems and not taking responsibility would be show stoppers for me. Sorry.
Anonymous
I would not leave him alone with the baby. He is going to drop the baby or set the house on fire. Get a nanny or day care immediately.
Anon
Sounds like you could both benefit from some therapy – both individually and as a couple. Maybe he’s having trouble accepting his limitations and is sort of barreling through life (literally) in reaction to it. Maybe he knows breaking things annoys you and is somehow doing it on purpose. Maybe your house needs to be rearranged to better accommodate his needs. Whatever it is, you both seem unhappy and that’s no way to live.
Anon
Well, this is a lot…
The yelling and blaming and not taking responsibility is just unacceptable. If he wont even talk about it, then I worry a therapist needs to facilitate.
But his disability makes me think of another issue, which I have a lot of experience with. I have a family member with a severe neurologic disability, not dissimilar to your husbands problem.
Aging with a neurologic disability is rough. Any time you gain weight, are stressed, or are sleep deprived (and your husband may have all three?), your neurologic problems get worse. This is why people with neurologic problems like his have to be monitored life long for depression (which develops in the majority of folks who decompensate) and they will need physical/occupational therapy “tune-ups” periodically. My guess is that your husband has not had physical therapy for years? since childhood? ever?!?!
Physical therapy will have the nice side effect of improving his mental health, which any sort of exercise tends to do. His primary care doctor can easily write a script anytime for this. He just lists whatever his current problems are to get insurance to cover it – CP/falls/dropping items/tripping etc..
Also, you basically need to “disability proof” your house, to some degree. Every person is different as to what this means. But certain clutter/rugs can be moved, kitchens optimally designed etc… This is something that the PT or OT can sometimes give advice on.
I think you are doing pretty amazing, all considering. But this is unacceptable. It is time for him to hear how much his behavior is affecting your mental health, and that you can’t live like this anymore, and that you are very worried about him. Walking time bomb… that says it all.
Keep us posted.
Anonymous
This is the best advice on this whole thread.
Anonymous
+1 to disability proofing your house.
The disability is the cost of admission to living with him, it can’t be negotiated away – even though it should be better handled and managed than presently, it will not go away. You might have to actively set up your home not to be a “china shop” for the bull. You might currently have more furniture, stuff or decor than is realistic to navigate, it’s important to have surroundings that set all three of you up for success. Have you currently got nooks and crannies that he can’t realistically get to, but that a toddler might? All of you should have a safe home environment.
The yelling is not a cost of admission thing, though. It’s perfectly fine to call it quits over anger and yelling, if that’s what you want.
Anon
“I am so sick of dealing with our baby crying because of his yelling”
This is not ok. Do you feel safe around him? Do you feel safe leaving your baby with him?
Anonymous
It’s not even the yelling that is the most worrisome. It’s the melting a baby bottle in the bottle warmer and the breaking cabinets! How can this man care for a baby safely?
Anon
It’s just factual that not all disabled people can care for themselves or others without accommodation or support. It can be very hard for people to admit this though. And they can care for dependents with accommodations and support.
Anon
I think living with clumsiness and having to outsource things is the price of admission for marrying someone with CP.
The weight gain is not something you can fix. He has to want to lose weight. If you don’t want to eat unhealthy food yourself, don’t buy it and don’t eat it, but he’s not going to lose weight unless he decides to do it for himself.
Anon
This is so similar to what I experienced with my husband (other than the CP) but everything else. Turns out drinking and smoking pot, plus anger issues caused all of these problems. We are now seperated.
Anon
Thanks for sharing. I wonder if your husband had mental illness that he never treated. Sounds like a classic presentation… Hope your life is good now.
CreditRisk
I am so sorry. Reading this resonated with me. I went through similar and kept it going for 10 years longer than I should have.
Go now and get legal advice. Get specific advice related to his behavior and how to document the affect on your baby. Set up your own bank account if you don’t have one already set up and have your pay go into that account.
You can try and save your marriage but if nothing has changed in 6 months file for a divorce. Get a therapist because divorcing these men is a nightmare.
Cb
A Friday win…
I got confirmed in post (the UK equivalent of tenure, but way less onerous) a year early! It slightly makes up for the fact that I have a horrific teaching schedule for spring next year (four consecutive days, 1 hour, 1 hour, 2 hours, 2 hours). So I won’t get any writing done for the term, but at least they can’t fire me for it?
Anon
Congrats!!! Hope you can celebrate big this weekend.
Anon
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!! What great news and what an accomplishment. I’m so happy for you!
ArenKay
Congratulations, Cb! What an accomplishment. I hope you are planning an appropriate celebration.
Anon
Woohooo congrats!!
blueberries
Congrats!!
anon
Congratulations!
Curious
Yesss love it! Congratulations!
nuqotw
Congrat!!!!!
Senior Attorney
Hooray!! Heartiest congratulations!!! And bummer on the teaching schedule!
Anon
Congratulations!!
MJ
Cb,
As a longtime reader, I am absolutely THRILLED for you. The academic job market is incredibly rough. I am so glad you can live your best Scottish life FOREVER. You should be so proud!
Anon
Amazing! Congratulations!!
Jules
Go, Cb!!
Anon
Any recommendations for books about acceptance and how to stop ruminating on the thoughts of “it’s not fair that my life turned out the way it has”?
go for it
No recs; however, when I feel like this I write a 10 item list of things I am grateful for every day. Arrgh, every day! Especially when I am very upset about something.
Anonymous
The Book of Job. Wild.
Anonymous
Heh. I just reread that one and could not get past the fact that the big guy thought he had something to prove to Satan.
Anon
:)
Anon
There’s an excellent book called Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach that my therapist made me read. I was resistant, but it did really help me with these feelings.
Also spending time considering why I was having those thoughts and how I truly wanted my life to be looking forward. I’ve spent years thinking about that and instituting changes based on the answers (big and small!), and that has helped me recapture a feeling of agency and joy.
anon
Tara Brach is pretty amazing.
Anon
Well, life is long and doesn’t just turn out in any way. It’s turns out in response to things you’ve done. If you don’t like it, take steps to change it.
Anon
Not everything is within our control. I have an incurable medical condition and there are no steps I can take to change it.
Anon
No, you can’t change that but you can change what you do with the time you have.
Anon
I would love to change what I could do, but I can’t, certain things are forever off-limits to me. It’s also not my fault. It’s not in response to something I’ve done, I didn’t do something to deserve it. Life isn’t fair.
Anon
Exactly! You can’t control what family you’re born into, what medical conditions you have, and lots of other things about your life that can have consequences forever.
Anon
Yes – life is very unfair. Very.
Anonymous
This is the prosperity gospel talking right here. Totally toxic.
Anon
Here’s an unironic amen to this
Annie
unironic amen from me too
Anon
The people I know who are frustrated with the way their lives turned out often had something happen like losing their husband to cancer at age 37 or having a toddler child die.
Monday
When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron, for any kind of crisis or loss.
Anon
Love this recommendation and it really helped me at a time when I felt like everything had gone wrong, and nothing was ever going to go right again.
The core of Buddhism is that it’s not the thing itself, but our attachment to the thing, that causes suffering. When Things Fall Apart is a reminder that the universe owes us nothing – the universe just is, and it is what it is, we can’t change it – and that if we are looking around us and feeling unhappy that things are not different than they are, the only thing we can change is our mindset and our attachment to the way things are supposed to be.
Pema Chodron wrote the book after going through a painful divorce and having other negative events happen, so it’s not written from an observer standpoint: she really had to do the work on herself. I found it very resonant, for that reason.
Anon
Not a book, but the new season of Queer Eye is out and they often deal with themes around this topic. Of course it’s just a TV show, but I find that they handle these topics really well.
DC Anon
The Happiness Trap was my intro to acceptance and commitment therapy. Not everything resonated with me, but I was able to pick up a few things from it that really changed my mindset and helped me start living a better life (following some really drastic health and mobility issues).
Anon
I’m a government lawyer and am really struggling with feeling engaged at work. I’m at the point where I’m starting to not even care why my clients do. Like – I’m so tired of working on a specific project that a big part of me is like “fine, clients, just do what you want to do, I don’t care anymore.” I’m still fighting these feelings and not actually giving in to them, but what is this a sign of? Is this a sign I need a new job? A sign of burnout and I need a vacation? Something all lawyers experience but nobody talks about?
Anon
I think this is something almost all lawyers experience, but don’t really talk about. But I also think it’s a sign of burnout. Could you take a 2 week vacation, and see how you feel after?
Anon
Yeah, sounds like burnout to me. Maybe the type type a vacation will fix and maybe not. Do you usually have more variety in your tasks than just one project? Can you do some professional development trainings? Can you ask to take on a different responsibility (note not just more work, haha) in your job? Does this project feel never ending and can you denote certain milestones of progress as you slog? The feeling of progress and growth is really important for job satisfaction.
I’d also start looking for jobs, even if just to learn what currently sounds exciting to me to see if I could incorporate those tasks/skills in my current job.
Anom
Has anyone ordered from Karen Millen? I see they have petite clothes and wanted to try it. Any thoughts on quality or sizing? I’m about a 0P in AT and BR. I also can’t tell from the website whether returns are free.
waffles
I have. I find the clothes generously cut in the bust, so most of them don’t work for me. They are reasonable value if you wait for a good sale though. Quality is not bad. For day dresses and skirts it’s probably similar to Anne Taylor. A lot of polyester. But designs are maybe a bit more unique. I had one evening dress which looked really different from the web pictures, but generally it’s not too different from what I expected.
I’m in Canada and returns are not free (there’s a return shipping cost). Not sure if it would be the same for US.
Sizing is pretty average. I’m a UK12 at Karen Millen, and for reference I wear Banana Republic 8 or Old Navy 6. 5’6″ or 5’7″, 160lb.
anon
I’ve been wondering lately whether I have ADHD. My son does, but his has a clear hyperactivity component. That’s not my issue, exactly. But my mind is always very active, I’m pretty sensitive to changes in my environment or schedule, I get anxious and overwhelmed easily when things get busy and it’s harder to “track” things, and at work, I swing wildly between periods of crazy productivity and not being able to motivate myself to do anything. I’m in my early 40s and have made so many changes to my habits overall, and yet I still don’t really feel “fixed.” I already take an SSRI for anxiety. Which makes me wonder if there’s something else going on here.
Does this sound like how ADHD would manifest in an adult woman?
Anon
ADHD comes in three types: hyperactive, inattentive, and combined. The poster child of ADHD is a rambunctious little boy with hyperactivity, so many many girls and women, who are more likely to present with inattention, are undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. I was recently diagnosed in my mid-thirties. I think it’s definitely worth pursuing some testing and/or therapy for yourself to figure out if you do have ADHD, and if you don’t, what might be going on. For me, the main thing post ADHD diagnosis is learning acceptance and kindness for myself. So much shame can become ingrained in us, particularly as women, around some of the things that are often struggles with ADHD. So learning simple things like “I am not a failure if my laundry piles up” has been important for me.
Anonymous
This 100% sounds like innatentive ADHD, which (charmingly) apparently used to be called ‘girl-type ADHD’. It’s now considered SOP in many countries to evaluate parents when the child is diagnosed as ASD/ADHD are so heritable. I’ve got innattentive type and was also only diagnosed when my son was and was medicated for my ‘anxiety’ and ‘depression’ prior to that (spoiler – I was not anxious/depressed, I was struggling with my ADHD and being in a big job/having a child with neurodivergency who was also struggling was making it worse).
My therapist said she’s often seen patients come to her after taking sudafed and having it calm them down and allowing them to focus and then realizing they’ve got ADHD. I take wellbutrin off label which works well with fewer side effects (ritalin made me jittery) so that’s one option in addition to the newer meds like vynase.
anon
Fascinating. I have definitely noticed that a combination of having kids and having a bigger job has made all of this a lot worse.
Anon
Interesting. I am exactly like OP and I’m on wellbutrin for depression and it helps a lot.
Cora
Wellbutrin is used off label to treat inattentive ADHD. I’m the same as OP and the wellbutrin helps a lot
Anon
My daughter was diagnosed with inattentive “girl”
ADHD in high school. She’s in college now and the more she learns about her condition, the more she sees it in other people, me included. I will say I think I’ve been self medicating with caffeine for most of my adult life.
Anon
I am just so tired of having to do it all. 30, single but dating, work full time, in school, live alone.
– My boss is pretty incompetent (he’s EXCELLENT at being a solo contributor and well meaning but awful at being a manager), so I have to do a lot of managing up. I also am totally self-taught on my role. I have to constantly remind him about just about everything. I’m debating switching jobs, but I also don’t know that I have the capacity to do that right now.
– My entire family has ADHD so the communication / planning / execution of any family thing is difficult. This resulted in a botched Mother’s Day last weekend. This weekend we’re opening my grandparents’ cabin for the summer and apparently I’m the only one who thought about needing to get basics like toilet paper, cleaning supplies, soap, shampoo, etc. I love the cabin and my grandparents and am happy to help, but I will scream when my aunts and uncles don’t help at all and then complain about something. I don’t do any official care taking, but I do pitch in to help with the cabin (which I do get to use quite often for free!), and with my grandparents and their medical needs (and also just visiting and cherishing the time they’re still with us), and other family obligations.
– Living alone obviously all of my cooking, cleaning, household management is on me. I have lowered my standards, but then I don’t like living this way (like I haven’t vacuumed in a month which I hate and feels gross and also is distracting but I also haven’t had the time or energy so here we are).
– I lost my 20 lbs of pandemic weight, so while I have cut back on working out and cooking healthy meals in favor of convenience, I don’t want to revert to old habits and lose my progress. I’m really, really, really proud of my progress.
– I really value being a good friend / relative and showing up for people. I have a few friends who are having crises (serious medical things themselves / parents on hospice). It’s not a ton of time / energy / effort to send regular check in texts, grab drinks when they can, or send flowers or an Uber Eats gift card but it is another ball to juggle.
– Adding 20+ hours of school work a week on top of working FT is obviously draining. Lots of people do it, but it’s still a lot. I’m cash-flowing grad school, so I also don’t have much extra money to outsource.
– I have cut back on hobbies, socializing, dating and self-care in order to manage everything else. Which, was expected when I started school. But, those are the things that revive me so it’s always a battle on what’s the best use of my time. Also, I do want to marry and have kids and I previously put dating on the back burner for other things and I’m no longer willing to do that. So, I try to go on a few first dates a month. Since I value being a good friend, I refuse to give up socializing (though I have cut back). Hobbies are totally on the back-burner which makes me sad because they bring me a ton of joy and relaxation.
I am really, really proud of all that I manage. While I don’t do things for other people’s validation, I do wish that the work I am putting in in so many areas was ‘seen’ or appreciated a bit more. But, I am also so over everything. I love being independent and self-reliant but also, do I have to do EVERYTHING myself?!?!
I would love a vacation, but I neither have the time nor money for that.
Anon
Lower your expectations. It’s fine to not be all things to all people. It’s fine for your house to be a wreck because you’ve been busy with other things.
Anon
I had been cutting back on cleaning, but I also just came across mouse droppings for the first time in a few months (I have an on again / off again mouse in the apartment), so now I have to re-prioritize cleaning.
It’s always something….
anonshmanon
I’m sorry, that sounds like a lot! Especially the work+school combo is temporary, so a little bit of it is to hold on for a while. Personally, I would drop some balls with friends or family, and reclaim some restorative hobby time. I am usually the person who sends handwritten cards, but sometimes it’s just not happening. I don’t think anyone notices that missing card, honestly. Or if they do, at least they don’t let me know!
Anon
Yes, at least I know in 14 months I’ll be back to just working, no school! August 2024 cannot come soon enough :)
Things are mostly fine, but the littlest disruption throws everything out of whack. Like, I could not go to a Sunday wedding (referring to the thread above), because I need my entire Sunday to do HW (I aim for 8 hours of HW on Sunday) + that’s when I try (but often fail) to do laundry / clean the apartment / go food shopping / cook a big dinner so I can eat leftovers for a few days. So even Mothers Day (botched plans aside) threw me off this week because I didn’t have that block of time to get things done.
I feel guilty about how I haven’t been very present with some friends lately, but I guess that’s just what happens when you balance work and school.
Anon
You have to let some of this go, it’s too much for one person! Frankly, let your family members suffer the consequences of not remembering shampoo and soap. You have a lot going on in your life but it does sound like you’re taking on some unnecessary burdens just because you feel like you should.
Anon
I only step in to save others’ from their choices when it impacts me. I don’t want to spend all weekend doing manual labor and not be able to take a shower at the end of it! I also bought coffee for this weekend because I am a coffee drinker and I want coffee. Most people at the cabin are tea drinkers, but I didn’t get tea bags for them, or remind them about tea. If they don’t have tea, I don’t care because I have my coffee.
I only remind my boss about stuff that impact my projects, if he flubs his own projects and looks bad that’s on him. If he flubs mine, it reflects poorly on me too.
Some friends keep talking about getting MLB tickets for next week, nobody is making moves on it and I refuse to be the one who plans it. I’ll be bummed if we don’t go to the game, but I cannot be the one to organize getting the tickets. If we don’t go, we don’t go. But, someone else can step up and actually organize it.
Anon
OMG. Hugs. That sounds exhausting. You sound like a very responsible granddaughter, student, and worker.
Also, you sound like you need a break and a reset. Try to take some time off, even a weekend where you go stay at a hotel and have to do nothing. No cooking, no cleaning, no shopping, no scheduling, no studying.
Just get a hard reset and then one you’re done, you may be able to get some clarity on your “regular” life and what, if anything, you might want to change, deprioritize, delegate, or outsource.
Anon
P. S. I know you said no money for vacation, so can you book yourself a campsite in a park maybe for the weekend? And just buy meals there, sit around in a camp chair and read a book.
Anon
That is a good idea. I especially like your camping idea, pure peace and quiet!
Anon
Look at the light at the end of the tunnel. You will be out of grad school with no debt in a not-long amount of time. That will free up time and money.
Anon
That is true! It will be better once I graduate.
I’ll have more money and more time, but I still feel like a lot of life maintenance will fall to me, which is always exhausting.
Anon
As we’ve told you before, you are still trying to do to much, and your expectations are still too high. Most people do not have the energy/personality you do, and also prioritize differently. This means you will always be stressed, and will always be disappointed. This will also hurt your relationships with other people.
You just can’t do it all when you are in school and working. Some periods in life just stink, but you can still play the long game. When I was very busy, my place never got cleaned, I never made it to a Mother’s Day brunch (never mind organized one), dropped the ball on all the friendships, and didn’t go on any dates. That’s just how life can sometimes be.
Your expectations are too high. You’re in for a lifetime of pain if you can’t dial down a little.
I recommend a little bit more time for mindfulness/reading/yoga. 15 minutes a day. Dial it down.
Anon
And some people would rather be stressed than drop the ball on all of their friendships / skip seeing their Mom.
When your busy period ended and you re-emerged, what was your life like? Did friends welcome you back or were they bitter you had disappeared or had they moved on with other friendships? Did you find dating again was hard after taking time off? Did you end up finding a long-term partner?
Anon
Since we’re asking questions, let me ask a couple: do you feel that continuing to date when you clearly are burned out and frustrated, and have minimal space in your life someone could fit themselves into, is really the best use of your time and effort? I mean – let’s say that tomorrow, you go on a date and you find someone who you think could be “the one.” If you won’t make any changes in your life or schedule, or drop anything you have going to make space in your life to create a relationship with that person – do you think the relationship will develop into something long-term?
FWIW it seems to me like you are trying to tick all the “life accomplishment” boxes vs. actually living your real life. Graduate degree, check! Dating, check! Friend outings, check! Work accomplishments, check! Are you actually getting anything out of these activities as you run from one to the other, frantic, never really able to devote full attention to any one thing? This is may be a season of your life and it may come to an end in this particular phase, but I’ve known people who got kind of addicted to this “everything all the time” mode and couldn’t stop doing it, and ended up in their mid-40s being VERY burned out, with a lot of checked boxes – yes, I did this; yes, I did that – but feeling like they’d been running at 80 mph for way too long and that they had way too little to show for it. They didn’t have good marriages, healthy relationships with their children, healthy relationships with their friends because they’d been doing things to do them, and not doing things like it mattered, and really investing time, effort and energy into other people. Don’t let that be you. There’s nothing wrong with making judicious choices about what to drop so you can put time and effort into the things that really will pay off for you, long-term.
Also, next time you’re posting just to vent and you don’t really want feedback, it might be useful to say that up-front. People will still give you feedback, but then your answers won’t come across as defensive.
Anon
I would make changes to my schedule to fit in something I think could be “the one”; everyone I know who is in a serious relationship adjusted their schedule to accommodate a partner.
I would rather not have a graduate degree, but it’s all but required in my field. That’s the only box I am checking. Everything else I do because I truly love it. But, I also do a LOT less than you and other commenters seem to think I do. I am not seeing my friends or family to check a box; I love them and spending time with them and when I am with them I am fully invested (not looking at my phone, not multitasking).
Anon
Then be stressed. But you may need to look for a different support system, because we are going to give you the same advice every time you post.
It is what it is.
In my example, I explained to my family/friends what my limits were, and that it was for the time of my program. My health/sleep and the only most important social/family engagements were my priorities. Of course, I’m not insane and still maintained basic connections. But my friends were definitely more irritated when I cancelled social engagements at the last minute or got angry/judgmental of them.
I suspect you are young, and have a long life ahead of you. There are ebbs and flows in life. Part of becoming an adult is learning how to prioritize. It is difficult, no doubt. You will prioritize differently at different points of your life.
And yes, my friends all understood, my family actually reached out and took stuff off my plate because I asked them to, and yes my dating life was no different when I finished.
Anon
As mentioned, I have cut way back on family and friend stuff. I’m a little stretched thin because I have a few friends going through really serious stuff right now, so if they reach out I will drop everything to help. But, that’s definitely not normal (but also being hospitalized for months straight for health crises in your 20s also isn’t normal).
Anon
What do you really expect us to say?
Anon
Life is a team sport… I can’t imagine just dropping out of everything social because you’re in a busy period.
I did grad school while working and while it wasn’t fun, I still made time for my family and friends.
Anon
I also thought this sounds like the poster who wants to work, take classes, and socialize 6 nights a week then complains that she’s too busy. Something has to give. If cutting back means going on several first dates per month, organizing family events, spending time in person with friends, maintaining a spotless apartment, and cooking nutritious meals…yeah of course you’re overwhelmed. I sympathize that being single means handling everything on your own but you’re trying to handle way too much.
Drop all the expectations of what your life was like before. Work and school are non-negotiable so start there. Then identify your top daily priorities (minimum amount of sleep, exercise, cleaning, and cooking required to maintain your health and sanitary needs). How much free time does that leave you for *optional* activities? And really, all the social stuff and hobbies you described are optional. Everything can’t be a priority when you have limited time.
Anon
I definitely don’t socialize 6 nights a week! More like two (maybe one mid-week happy hour and one weekend night). And I really don’t do any hobbies or activities.
It is just hard, as you mentioned, being single (so I have to handle everything for myself) and dependable (so other expect that I can also assist, even though I do try to push back).
Anon
My brother just asked me for directions to the cabin… he has the address and GPS. And, he’s been going there just as long as I have. I am going to scream.
Anon
You sound like you on the edge of a breakdown. Can’t you see that?
Haven’t you learned by now your family are who they are? What do you think they think about you when you scream at them about something so insignificant as this? I can say, it doesn’t improve your friend/family relationships.
Slow it down. Consider getting a therapist if you don’t know how to, and if mindfulness/yoga/relaxation activities are not for you.
Anon
I want to scream because this is the fourth time recently he’s needed me to do something that he can and should do himself. My mom already texted me today that she’s had it with him. This is a him thing that is impacting me.
Obviously I do not scream at him or anyone. “I am going to scream” means I am frustrated; I have seen many others use it with that meaning, not meaning they are literally going to scream.
Winter
Have you actually tried screaming? That is legit an option. You don’t need to cheerfully put up with everyone’s garbage.
Anon
Just don’t respond. He’ll figure it out or miss out. This is not your problem and only you can allow someone else to make it your problem.
Anon
We are carpooling, so I am slightly dependent on him tonight.
Anon
I shouldn’t have added additional information beyond the first two bullet points (I was just trying to add context as to why I don’t have a ton of extra capacity). My main frustrations are in adults (namely my male boss and my male relatives) who can’t seem to get anything done (or done right) without a woman’s help. And I’m tired of that. My mom and I vented about it last weekend at Mother’s Day. I am capable and smart and dependable and thus people either come to me with their problems or they just mess things up and expect me to swoop in to fix them. Most of it is not malicious, as I mentioned we all have ADHD, but it’s frustrating to be the one person cleaning up messes. I also only clean up messes that impact me, if it’s not going to impact me I let them figure it out. But it’s still exhausting to be this person. Especially when I also have a busy life of my own.
My social and dating life are not a problem (but I also think that commenters think I am someone else, I definitely don’t go out 6 nights a week! I don’t have hobbies right now! My apartment is a mess!). I go to the gym 2-3x a week for 30 minutes and grab happy hour or dinner with a friend a few times a week and that’s it. I haven’t vacuumed my apartment in a month. I didn’t go food shopping this week and lived off of takeout. Trust me – there’s a lot of things I’m opting out of / not doing.
But, I’m also not going to opt out of the few things I”m still doing. Mainly, I mentioned that I have a few friends who are having crises right now; if one of them texts me to grab coffee I’m going to drop everything and go grab coffee with them. I’ll never be too busy or too stressed to help them out; I just wish I didn’t have “extra” work on my plate because of incompetent men.
Anon
I hope you have a relaxing weekend.
Anonymous
We’re attending a wedding Memorial Day weekend in the South. The wedding is at 1PM. Attire is “dressy casual.” Think my husband can wear a linen suit? My kids will be in linen shorts sets. I was planning to wear a floral Zara mini dress but I think it will be too hot. I need to rethink my outfit.
Anon
Yes, your husband can wear a linen suit. Is the wedding inside or outside? If inside, the a/c will be blasting such that you could probably wear a fur coat :D Outside is a different story.
Anon
Yes, I think a linen suit is perfect for this!
Anon
Your outfits sound fine. It will be hot, but what can you wear that’s cooler than a mini dress? It’s not like you can show up to a wedding in a bikini.
Anon
I had the same question. Not sure what is going to be cooler than a mini dress. Is it a sweater dress or something?
Anonymous
Depends on what the mini dress is made of and how tight it is. A long, flowy dress in a natural fiber might be cooler.
Anon
Depends on the cut and material – I could see a polyester tight mini dress being hotter than a cotton poplin a line dress. The ol’ breeze factor.
NYCer
100% yes re the linen suit.
Anon
If this is not the occasion for a linen suit, I don’t know what is!
Anonymous
Yes! It sounds so stylish! Get some good family photos!
anon
Where in the south (the forecast for my part of the south is only like 80, so not very hot) and will you be outside?
Also, yes, linen suit is fine.
Cat
Yes this is the perfect event for a linen suit!
Your outfit sounds great unless you think it’s not breathable enough. This would be the ideal circumstance for something from Hill House.
Anon
Cotton or linen for everyone!
OP
Sorry all – my mini dress is long sleeved and rayon. Bleh… I should have checked the fabric content. You make a good point: I assumed the reception will be outside but if not, everything we’re wearing will be fine. Thanks!
Anonymous
I would not wear that!
anon
I wish I had the money for this and somewhere to wear it. That is all.
anon
oops, link here. https://www.saksfifthavenue.com/product/maria-lucia-hohan-maia-metallic-mousseline-silk-dress-0400018763010.html?dwvar_0400018763010_color=OBSIDIAN
Anon
Stunning dress – not sure about the lace up gladiator style sandals it’s styled with, though!
waffles
I kind of love it with the gladiator sandals! it makes the midi length look more intentional in my opinion.
Anon
I am taking ballroom/Latin dance lessons, and my teacher has performance/competition dress like this, although more silver. So if you want to buy it, you could definitely wear it to ballroom dance competitions!