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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
The last time I was at the Time Warner Center I popped into the Thomas Pink store for, ah, some market research, and must say: the Stella silk shirt is but-ter-y soft. And, lucky you, it's now on sale — it was $250 but is now marked to $95 (lucky sizes only, alas). If your size isn't in stock but you're on a hunt, the Darcy or the Honey shirts are both Pink silk blouses as well that look great for work. Pictured: Thomas Pink Stella Silk Shirt
Two plus-size options are here and here.
Seen a great piece you'd like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com.
(L-6)
Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
BeetSmoothie
Today is the final day of evaluation for an enormous grant we worked all winter to put in. I am completely unable to focus – any tips for getting through the day?
Catlady
Try to focus for 20-30 minutes at a time, and build in some screw around time.
kids?
I’m 28, and I really don’t think I want kids. I like many things about the idea of having kids in the future (like having adult children, passing on everything I’ve learned about life, etc. But I’m really not a kid person, and it might be like 10 years before I find a kid bearable. Plus I like my life the way it is. Husband has the same outlook on the issue as I do, but I think he’s probably a little bit less likely to be the one to push having kids if we end up doing that. I definitely wouldn’t think about kids for probably the next 10 years or so, and I’m not super particular if I have biological children or not. Did anyone go from totally not wanting kids to really wanting them? Or is it more likely that by this point in my life, I know what I want and the not being enthused about kids probably won’t change?
kids?
” might be like 10 years before I find a kid bearable.” – meaning I find it hard to be around young kids, and they’d probably have to be some minimum age before I find it enjoyable/bearable.
Anonymous
I think it’s pretty common to feel this way about kids in your 20s and then change your mind in your 30s. It’s also relatively common to know early on that you don’t want them and never change your mind. There’s really no way of knowing you how you’ll feel in your mid-late 30s until you get there.
Anonymous
+1.
Also, you may never really feel 100% either way. I have never had a burning biological drive to have kids but I liked the idea of adult kids and both me and my husband thought we might have some regrets if we never had a kid. We were (frankly) a bit ambivalent but I was approaching 35 (and other factors were in our favor, like stability and income) so we decided to go for it. Now we have one and I’m over the moon in love with her. But now we’re considering a second and having a second would mean we’d have to completely change our lives – for starters, we’d have to move out of our expensive city that we love to the suburbs – and I’m really struggling with the idea. I thought that having a kid and knowing how great she is would somehow jump start that biological urge to have a kid and make me gung ho for a second but it hasn’t. If I could have a second and keep our life the way it is, I would do it in a heartbeat. But the idea of sacrificing something that is really fundamental about how we live makes it a much harder decision and I can’t say yet which way we’ll come down on it.
City dweller and loving it
As someone who lives in an expensive city with two small kids, you don’t need to move to the suburbs assuming that public schools in the city are decent. Yes, it’s a smaller space but we manage. I would never move out of the city. There certainly are pros and cons of having a second child but I don’t think you should automatically assume you need a huge place in the burbs.
Anon
Though I always wanted kids (for the abstract reasons you mentioned – i.e. having someone to take care of me/give me grandchildren in my old age), I never *liked* kids. I went from not liking them to LOVING them when my baby arrived. Like, OMG I like babies – what?? So I don’t think you should have kids if you don’t want them – BUT – if you decided to have kids, you might like them better than you think.
However, wait until you’re ready. And if it is financially doable, looking into freezing your eggs ASAP, since you know it is a possibility.
tesyaa
This is very common… people who don’t like other people’s kids often find themselves batsh!t crazy about their own kids (sometimes unbearably so). That’s not a great reason to have kids if you don’t want them otherwise, of course
Anonymous
That’s me too. I’m obsessed with my kids. I think they are the cutest, funniest, most charming, hilarious, beautiful, meaningful little creatures. I could go on and on. And I didn’t want kids until about 6 months before I got pregnant with my son. Something just switched, and I decided I wanted kids (it was during a kids’ performance at church when they were dressed as little lambs – I started crying – very dramatic – ha ha). So then we started trying, thinking maybe just one kid. Then I became WAY MORE obsessed than I expected. Now we have two, and I can’t wait to try for the third, and I think I might even adopt a fourth!!!
Pita
This happened to me too. I am completely consumed with loving my kid (young toddler). And now every single time I see or hear another young kid, anywhere, I smile. They are wonderful creatures. I was NOT like this before. I am shocked to feel this way.
anon
And that terrifies me: the complete and utter personality change some women undergo post-baby.
NYtoCO
Why? It makes sense that, even if someone didn’t want a kid (before they had ANY idea what life would actually be like with one), that they would fall completely in love with him/her once they arrived.
Killer Kitten Heels
Along similar lines, I was pretty meh-to-no-thanks on babies in my late 20s, and then absolutely lost my heart to my best friend’s daughter when she was born – basically, all of my relationships to babies had been occasional/arms-length until then, but with my best friend’s daughter, I got the opportunity to really get to know a baby for the first time – that, combined with my deep love and affection for my best friend, flipped me from “meh” to “I think I’d like one of these relatively soon, thanks.” (Now, to figure out how we can afford to have one… sigh.)
Diana Barry
For me, the switch flipped around age 27-28 and I went from babies-maybe-sometime-in-the-future to OMG BABIES NOW! And then it was hard to wait. YMMV of course – it is different for everyone and there is no way to predict now how you’ll feel in 10 years.
AIMS
I had the opposite experience. I always wanted kids in the abstract, then around 27/28 I was questioned whether I’d ever really want them, in part I think because it felt like I was at an age where I was supposed to be dying for a child and I wasn’t and also I just liked my life as it was, being able to do whatever I want, support myself, travel, etc. At 31-32, I started to feel like I want a child again. Now I’m 34 and I have a baby and I love her. But I still am pretty neutral on other people’s kiddies (small doses work best for me) and I am just as ambivalent about whether we should have a 2nd child as I was about the first – even though, like OP, I love the idea of having two adult children, etc.
Anon
At 28 my husband and I decided to TTC and I got pregnant pretty quickly. We now have a 3 month old who I adore, but I’m still not really a fan of other people’s kids (although my patience and tolerance for other children, even toddlers, has increased greatly since having a baby). I liked our life a lot before getting pregnant, but was starting to get sort of restless and bored with the whole hosting parties, going out to eat, day drinking every Sunday, etc. lifestyle and have found that being a Mom is much more rewarding for me, personally. This isn’t true for everyone, though.
Sassyfras
Same. I also got pregnant at 28 and had been bored to tears with my kid-free life of going to fancy restaurants and drinking craft beers and throwing everything at my career. In all honesty, I do miss certain aspects of that life now that I’m a parent, but overall I am much more fulfilled and happy now. I was never crazy about children and I think we are one and done… but I think my daughter is the most brilliant, hilarious, charming little person to ever exist and I’m so glad that I had a child when I did.
Betty
I would agree that I think the way you are feeling is pretty common. In my mid to late 20s, I was so meh that I did research and read books about being meh about kids. A few years later, it was my husband who was ready to have a kid and I gently kept the brakes on. Then we pulled the goalie, and I truly warmed to the idea of having a child that was a combination of me and my husband. And then…. infertility. I didn’t realize how much I wanted a child until it wouldn’t happen, even with assisted reproductive technology. By the time I saw the flickering heart beat, I was so very ready for a baby. He is now 5 and his little sister is 2, and I think they are the most amazing, beautiful, hilarious people on this planet. I love those kids in a way that I didn’t know I was capable. And still, while I like other people’s kids, it is only really mine (and my nephews) that I am over the moon crazy and would do anything for them.
HSAL
I was always pretty ambivalent – never opposed, never that interested in friends’ kids/nieces and nephews, always kind of figured I’d do it someday. My husband was the one to make the push when I was 33 and we got pregnant pretty quickly. She’s seven months and I’m still not a person who squees over kids, even my own. I like her and I love her, and she can be pretty fun and I definitely don’t regret doing it, but I also know I would have had a full life if we’d never had a kid. Maybe that will still change? But I also kind of feel like that switch would have flipped already if it was ever going to.
Spirograph
I have never been a baby person (although I love my own babies, and now that I know how awesome they are, I can appreciate the cuteness of other people’s young kids when they’re being pleasant), but I liked the idea of older kids and adult children. My husband was firmly pro-kids, so it was never really a question for us, but I never had that all-consuming desire to be a mom that some women have. And we never felt “ready” or like “woo, let’s have a baby now!” it was more like, “We want the kids to be out of the house when we’re 55, so we should get going.” I was very apprehensive of the lifestyle change. Going from freewheeling DINKs with vacations and selfish hobbies to kids’ activities, schedules, and $3k a month in childcare was not my favorite, but it is what it is and 100% worth it. I had my first at 29, and I loved my childless 20s.
However you feel about kids is normal. And whether it changes or not is also normal. You really don’t need to decide right now, or even in the next 5 years, or even later than that if you would consider adopting – especially adopting an older child. There are so many ways to add children to your family, if that’s what you ultimately decide is right for you.
anon8
Neither me or my husband wanted to have kids in our 20s. That feeling only intensified as we got older. We liked our child free lifestyle and didn’t want to change it. Im 38 and he’s 43 so we’re definitely not going to change our minds now.
2 Cents
One of my dearest friends was always on the fence about not having children, and she and her husband have only solidified the “no kids for us” stance as they’ve gotten older. What she does like: Kids (of all ages) in small doses, playing with them and handing them back when they’re grumpy/need a diaper change, and being the cool aunt who passes on her extensive baking and crafting knowledge without the joy of college tuition in the future :P
life
I don’t have kids. I always assumed that I would have them, but I am very single and in my 40’s, so I have accepted it wont happen.
But it has been interesting watching my friends have kids. My friends who honestly…. I thought should NEVER have kids… because they showed zero interest in children, were very happy with their 2 adult lives, and just seemed to lack that maternal instinct… are now the most obsessed with their kids. Pretty much, they all have one kid, and then love them beyond all imagination… a little too obsessed, and the kids are a little spoiled, but good kids.
And my totally irresponsible, lovely but ditsy friend who barely has the skills to keep herself alive now has three beautiful children. She is surrounded by nannies and housekeepers etc.. and a responsible husband who keep things afloat day to day. But she has changed as well.
It is very interesting to see how people change when they have kids.
Anon
I understand where you’re coming from. I’ve never been super into kids…even my good friend’s kids. I just don’t live kids. But I couldn’t imagine growing old without children of my own. I dreamed of having adult children and going on vacations together, etc. But in order to have adult children you have to have babies. I now have 15 month old twin (surprise of our life) and we wouldn’t change a thing. I still don’t love kids but I love the crap out of my own and that’s what really matters.
very anon
I also am not a “small child” person, in that I don’t particularly like or know how to interact with other people’s babies and small children. I did want kids of my own, though, and I figured it would be different with my own kids. I love my toddler, but being a good parent still doesn’t come naturally to me, and I feel a lot of guilt for not really enjoying playing with my child, not knowing what to do when my child is fussy, etc. I also miss a lot of things about my life pre-kids. It gets better as kid gets older, and I’m hoping it comes more naturally to me at least by the preschool years, which is when I enjoy interacting with other people’s kids. But it’s not necessarily the case that a switch will flip, or that you’ll really be a “kid” person if you aren’t now.
me too
Just wanted to say you’re not alone! I found it really hard to bond with my babies when they were newborns, and I am finding the toddler years very challenging. My son is 20 months, and while I love him, I definitely don’t always enjoy spending time with him right now, which brings on a lot of guilt! I’m really looking forward to the school-age years.
Me three
I feel the same as a lot of people – I’m not really a baby/small child person. Never have been and that hasn’t really changed. I just had a baby and while I love him and he does have his cute moments, I am really looking forward to the days when he is more interactive and independent. I couldn’t picture my future life without children so that’s why I had my son and hope to have one more. I figure babies and toddlers are the “price of admission” of having a life with children.
Anonymous
+1
Anon
I was always ambivalent about having kids. I figured that to have a husband, I was expected to have kids so they happen. My biological clock started ticking when I was 31 or 32, single, and not seriously dating anyone. For the first time, babies looked cute and kids were adorable. Well, that phase lasted all of 6 months and I quickly reverted back to ambivalence.
The biggest feeling of relief I have ever experienced was when my current boyfriend told me he didn’t really ever want kids. I was expecting to grieve or feel bad about not having kids. The relief was very unexpected. Now I am making plans that would not have been possible with kids and I’m very excited about the next phase of my life.
CX
32 and still not enthused about having my own and not a huge fan of other people’s kid. I decided a few years back that if I changed my mind, I’d foster or adopt an older kid (they’re harder to find families for too). Letting go of the oft-debated biological window was a weight off.
Anne Elliott
I was indifferent but Husband wanted at least 1. We had our son and it was live at first sight for me.
Then I HAD to have a daughter, which we did after 4 years.
NYNY
Is there anything you really have to do today? If there is, then jump right into it now. If there isn’t, this is the day to do mindless tasks like cleaning up your desktop or filing email.
Good luck on the grant!
NYNY
Oops! That was a reply to BeetSmoothie!
layered bob
I know this was a reply to someone else, but it is exactly the kick in the pants I needed this morning. Ok! I will jump right into to the thing I really have to do today! Please post motivational questions like this every morning :-)
Anonymous
+1
Cb
I really appreciated the motivational message even if misdirected! I’ve been at a writing bootcamp all week and the end of my PhD is so close I can taste it. Trying to get the main body of this chapter done today so I can focus on writing up analysis tomorrow.
NYNY
Ha! I feel like a fortune cookie. :-)
Anonymous
Totally. This made me lol. Thanks.
Anon
Seriously! When I read this I thought “that’s random, but also really good advice!” Then I realized it was probably a misplaced response :)
Anonymous
I recently started a new job with a more formal dress code than my previous job. I wore mostly ponte dresses or a skirt/cardigan combo in my previous position; most people in my new office wear suits or separates every day. I despise suits and refuse to wear them on a regular basis, but I need to up my separates game. The sales lately have been great for me, but I worry I’m going overboard. I’m a pretty anxious person and my anxiety sometimes manifests in my shopping habits. Tips for meeting my legitimate workwear needs without letting my anxiety take over?
bridget
Set a budget and decide on a certain number of pieces (eg, two jackets, one nicer skirt, two nicer dresses).
Also, window shop. A lot. Then leave the mall (or close your computer). If you still want it the next day, or two, or five, get it.
OP
Thanks. I usually impose the window shopping rule you suggest, but I’m finding it hard to do with these sales. I’ve missed out on two blouses so far because they sold out before I decided I really did need them :(
lawsuited
Yeah, but FOMO is not a great shopping criteria. If you see a blouse, but aren’t sure, then leaving it at the store is a sensible thing to do until you are sure that you want it/it will work in your wardrobe. If it sells out, then JSFAMO – there will be other blouses!
P.S. My solution to this problem is usually to buy now and return later if I decide it doesn’t work, but if you get anxiety around shopping then actually making the subsequent decision and making the return may be difficult for you (I don’t know, I’m just guessing and not wanting to make a suggestion that will be harmful to you), in which case it’s better to have no blouses than to have no money in your account and 46 never-been-worn blouses lurking around.
Cb
Capsule wardrobe? Can you tell yourself you want 15 full outfits (5 dresses + jackets, 5 skirts + 10 blouses) and stop when these quotas are met?
capsule
This. Identify what holes in your wardrobe are not being met and buy those items. Don’t just continue to buy a bunch of black skirts/silk tops/whatever. Ask me how I wound up with a wardrobe of about 20 silk tops (many sleeveless, natch) and about 2 jackets, neither of which fit me particularly well. Not helpful.
Anonymous
Figure out what your legitimate needs are. Write a list.
Killer Kitten Heels
Capsule time! Here’s your list (and for the record, I know you said you don’t like suits, but you don’t need to wear the suiting pieces all together as suits on a day-to-day basis, and buying suits makes purchasing easier – plus, you’ll already have suits when you need them (and it sounds like in your office, you will need them at some point, given how everyone dresses)):
Black suit (blazer + dress + pants and/or skirt)
Navy suit (blazer + dress + pants and/or skirt)
Medium gray suit (blazer + dress + pants and/or skirt)
Black pants (and maybe one pair of gray pants, if your suits are all skirts)
2 additional skirts
2 additional blazers (I’d recommend black and a neutral-ish color like olive)
8-10 tops (I go for sleeveless/short-sleeve because I tend to leave my topper piece on all day, but you could opt for long or 3/4 sleeve if you’re more likely to take your jacket/cardigan off during the day)
4 dressier cardigans (for days you don’t want to wear a blazer, and for days you are cold so you can layer them under blazers)
1-2 additional dresses (The Limited has a suiting-material color-block sheath in gray/navy/black right now that I really love, so I’d recommend that one plus maybe a work-appropriate version of a LBD)
Stop when you’ve checked off all the items on the list.
FP
Find a trusted friend whose taste you agree with, and make them your shopping permission-giver. You can’t buy anything without running it through them first. Really helps me avoid FOMO and impulse buys because of sales.
Wildkitten
I like the MM La Fleur jacket/cardigan.
KT
Honest question from a non-cat owner…why do cat owners let their cats outside?
I’m in an apartment complex, and for the third time this month, a pet cat was hit by a car and the owners were devastated.
I really don’t mean to be snarky, but isn’t that to be expected? I would never allow my dog off-leash to roam out of fear of disease, cars, other animals, etc…so why is it “normal” for cats?
Anonymous
A- because we are horrible people who do not deserve to live, let alone pets.
B- because they like it! Because it’s a long standing custom. Because they belief a life lived fully is better.
C- dear god KT maybe try being less judgmental? There are lots of reasons why many people, me included, think indoor cats are best. That doesn’t make people who disagree idiots who had it coming and don’t deserve sympathy when they are sad their pets died. Are you this rigid and judgmental and self righteous about everything? Or just pets?
Anonymous
The fact that it’s a “long standing custom” is no reason to do it.
Anonymous
The fact that it is means maybe get your head out of your a$$ about people doing it and still having the nerve to be sad when their pets die?
Anonymous
Gosh, someone’s defensive over the possibility of their cat getting hit by a car.
Anonymous
I don’t own a cat!!! And if I did, it would be indoor, because of the risks of injury, disease, and harm to birds. I just think people on here are really aggressively judgmental about pets in weird ways.
Anonymous
Ugh — cats are historically outside creatures. So are people. If you kept your *kid* inside 24/7, that would not be good parenting. I see cats outdoors as NBD (maybe odd in an apartment complex unless it is a garden complex).
Kitties/kiddies gotta roam. Don’t Rapunzel your cat.
KT
So is it that if they’re used to being outdoors, they don’t transition well indoors? So a cat that’s raised inside is fine with it, but if he gets used to going outside, he’ll throw fits about being indoors?
anon for this
In my experience, cats that are used to being outside (which includes a lot of stray/rescue cats) don’t always transition well to being inside all the time. Some do! Some love sleeping in a chair by a window all day long. But others get very neurotic and unhappy that they can’t go outside. Outside is fun, interesting, and stimulating for cats. Inside? Not so much.
MKB
Dunno, I have cats, and I also really question why people let them outside, which is really all the OP is doing. And, OP, I don’t think it is ‘normal’ for cats to be let outside necessarily, you just only know about cats who go outside because you’re more likely to see them. All of our neighbors have cats, but the only outdoor cats I ever see on our block are the ferals that one of the other neighbors feeds.
KT
It’s definitely what is “done” here. I’m in a more rural area where livestock is common. It actually is more dangerous to me, since we have wild hogs, alligators, etc but people around here let their cats out in the morning and back in at night.
MT
I commented below, but yes I think it’s far more common to see outside cats in rural areas. Either actually because of, or a throwback to, the purpose of cat on a farm with livestock is to hunt mice. Which means they have to be outside. It’s cat as a working animal than as purely pet.
KT
What the hell? I was genuinely asking. I’ve never had a cat, so I honestly did not know why people let them out
Anonymous
Not to be snarky, but I’m going to ask my question in a way that directly implies the owners of a dead cat shouldn’t have been devastated cause I saw it coming.
Anonymous
I know all sorts of unhealthy guys with cardiovascular disease who don’t live a great lifestyle after diagnosis (not vegan, not exercisers, not getting to a healthy weight, etc.). When they die, even if it is from something else, it will be devastating, even though we see death coming faster than for other people.
The reaper comes for us all.
KT
I have no idea what your rage monster is about–I said “not to be snarky” because I DIDNT mean to imply they shouldn’t be devastated–of course they are, it’s their baby. It was a genuine question.
Never having owned a cat, it seems ridiculously dangerous to me. I was trying to get input.
Anonymous
lol, like being vegan would help anything.
(be vegan if you want, but it’s not a magic tool to save your life)
Anonymous
Potato chips are vegan, right?
Anon
KT, I always find myself nodding in agreement with your views, and I do again here. (I was the anon yesterday who said I would feed my little man before myself). Don’t let the negativity get to you. I will say I have no clue why people let their pets out. My cats are my children. They have a lovely tree, tent, many toys, and window sills for lounging. They get more than enough exercise and are safe from disease, other animals and humans. Indoor cats are both healthier and live longer lives. A good friend of mine is a vet and she tells me of the horrors of outdoor kitties and irresponsible pet owners all the time.
KT
Aw thank you! I’m glad I’m not the only one who’d feed my pup before myself if it came to that.
(though side note: I work with an organization that provides meals to mobility-impaired individuals. One man kept losing weight, and they couldn’t figure out why, because they were delivering high-calorie meals to him daily. He finally admitted he had no money, so had been feeding his meals to his dog.
I’m not an emotional person, but I outright wailed when I heard that and went “TAKE ALL MY MONEY”. The organization was able to find dog food for his pet, and now they BOTH have put weight on :) It both broke my heart and warmed it to see this man trying so hard to take care of his friend, even when life was so cruel to him. )
Amanda
Wow! Retract those claws… Ha! I agree that B is true. My family has always let cats roam outside – free to come in and out. I think the cats love it. Yes, there are risks – we had one cat get bit by a snake, but she was fine (very jumpy around snakes after that), and we’ve had cats that were obviously in fights with other cats. I keep my cat inside always, since I’m in NYC.
When I’m in Central Park, I see dogs off their leash all of the time, and the other day one ran out into a really busy intersection with the owner running frantically after it. And I am always judging the dog owners because leash laws. What a funny double standard I have!
January
I don’t have any pets, but the cat next door was an outdoor cat who liked to come visit me. It was actually the perfect pet arrangement (all the entertainment, zero responsibility!). But my neighbors moved away, so no more neighbor cat. :(
Anonymous
I don’t get it either. It’s just asking for something bad to happen.
Catlady
I would never let mine out for just the reasons you mentioned. It shouldn’t be normal. There’s no psychological harm done to a cat living inside, they can get just as much exercise and predation stimulation from attentive owners in even 10 minutes a day. My guys have many windows, a huge cat tower, and lots of toys.
lawsuited
When I was a child, one of my cats got run over because we had moved and he kept escaping and running away to try and find his old home, which is common for cats because they identify more with their territory than with their owner (unlike dogs).
There’s a good chance that people in your apartment complex don’t purposely let their cats outside. I don’t let my current cat outside, but she sometimes tries to run away as well. I try not to take it personally.
Killer Kitten Heels
Oh yeah, also this! Cat outdoors =/= cat outdoors with permission. Some cats are escape artists.
KT
They definitely do it on purpose–they let them out in the morning and back in at night, rather than runaways.
When I just moved to the area and didn’t know this was a thing, I saw one cat with a collar so I caught it and looked up the address on the tag. I returned the cat to the owner and he looked at me like I was insane. He said “She’s SUPPOSED to be outside” and I felt stupid.
Killer Kitten Heels
I think there’s kind of a misconception with cats that they’re somehow naturally smarter/more wily/more feral than dogs, and therefore (a) less likely to get into the kinds of scrapes a loose dog would get into; and (b) more “wild” and in need of “freedom” to roam.
Also, given the general trend of young-ish people moving into, rather than out of, cities, I think there’s a pretty big swath of apartment dwellers who grew up in suburban/ex-urban/much-less-densely-populated areas who grew up with the presumption that all cats were indoor/outdoor cats, who haven’t really examined whether that presumption makes sense in a more densely populated environment. If you grow up in a cul-de-sac with 1/2 acre+ lots where everyone drives slowly and all the neighbors know each other, there isn’t much risk for your cat in being allowed to roam outside during the day, you know?
Catlady
I concur that they are 100% not smarter than dogs…
Anonymous
I’ve never heard of people intentionally letting their cats outside except maybe into a fenced yard. Is it possible the cats are escaping and getting hit by cars?
Anonymous
Outdoor cats are a thing. More common in some areas than others. Most cats in my town growing up roamed freely outside. Problematic, but not to a they-had-it-coming-idk-why-they-are-sad level.
lsw
I live in a mid-sized city and it’s a thing here. I find it depressing because cats are the #1 killer of birds and don’t discriminate between common birds and those that are in danger of losing habitat, etc.
Anonattorney
All sorts of outdoor cats in my urban residential neighborhood (small detached houses). I’ve never seen a cat hit by a car, and never have concern driving in my neighborhood that I may hit one. They seem to know what they’re doing. Most of the time they are just sitting on the stoop or in the front yard watching the world go by and sunning themselves.
My husband and I often go for walks in the evening. We call the time around twilight the “catting” when all the cats start roaming around. It’s great.
Killer Kitten Heels
“Outdoor cats” were absolutely a thing where I grew up (far-flung suburb of NYC) – like I said above, I think it was a combo of being a throwback to when the area was straight-up rural (so it was much lower-risk for cats to be outside), plus a general misconception about the inherent “wild” nature of domestic cats.
MT
Well rural means the outdoor cats were likely some combination of barn cat and pet. Which means there lived outside year round but they were fed (by leaving some food outside). They learned to stay away from the cars/machinery and didn’t tend to have much in the way of roads/traffic to deal with. Also probably didn’t ever see the vet.
We “had” a cat growing up, in a rural area of MT. We fed the cat, and it was pretty tolerant of us humans (no biting or scratching young children) but never let it inside (even during the winter). And it didn’t come with us when we moved. I’m pretty sure she just came with the house (aka we didn’t adopt her from a shelter or get her as a kitten).
Anonymous
While we are busy being self-righteous about how we are the best pet owners ever without any compassion, I’m just gonna add I think trap-neuter-release is a terrible practice. So we can round out the judgyness for the week.
KT
I really wasn’t trying to be judgey, just trying to understand. I’ve never owned a cat, and in my dog owner mind, letting an animal run loose=bad.
Anonymous
Would you mind sharing why? I have mixed feelings about TNR programs but they’ve always seemed something of a necessary evil. Interested in hearing your view.
Anonymous
Because they increase feral cat populations which harm birds. They aren’t necessary.
Anonymous
I though the neutar part reduced the population.
anon
I think that the TNR folks would argue the following: that to remove the existing cats (which aren’t reproducing) creates a territorial void that would then be filled by new cats (who may not be fixed) and perpetuates the problem. Add in some feral colony management with regular feeding, neutering/spaying, and removal of any kittens keeps the population in check. Cats hunt all sorts of vermin, not just songbirds. The decline in songbirds is also attributable to pollution, other predators, and loss of habitat, not just cats.
Trapping a feral cat is harder than it looks.
baseballfan
The entire purpose of TNR is to reduce feral cat populations (as well as disease, because TNRd cats are also vaxed for rabies). I don’t understand this comment at all.
Cat Owner
Because cats love to be outside and are inherently different creatures than dogs. Cats love to chase birds, enjoy the fresh air, and you know, be a cat. And you can’t exactly walk a cat outside on a leash. Having an indoor cat can be a serious challenge. Sometimes they bolt for an open door any time they see one.
Would you have the same judgment about the need to keep a dog inside all of the time? It would be inherently safer. It would also deny the dog part of its existence and pleasure in life.
KT
I’m sorry, I really didn’t mean to be judgey, just trying to comprehend.
The thought of my dog running free gives me hives because of all the things that could go wrong: hit by a car, eaten by a gator, whatever. It’s difficult for me to understand allowing an animal to run free, but I’ve never owned a cat, so perhaps their independence makes it necessary.
anon8
I don’t think you’re being judgey and having never owned cats, it’s a valid question.
Sometimes when my cat is whining and pacing by the door to go out I would love to let him run free but I know it’s no safe. He has an outdoor enclosure that I can set in the grass for times I cant take him on a walk. I also have plenty of toys to keep him entertained inside.
oy
We had an indoor/outdoor cat growing up in the suburbs, and dogs. All the cats in the neighborhood were indoor/outdoor. Cats and dogs do not respond to freedom in the outdoors the same way. Dogs bolt, they chase small animals (and maybe children) very quickly, they run around with little awareness of their surroundings. Big dogs can roam a lot farther a lot faster than a house cat. I have never witnessed a cat bound aimlessly into a road the way dogs do routinely. Yes, sometimes they do get in the road and get hit, or try to make a dash across but not make it in time, but they generally do not run willy-nilly like dogs.
BTW, it’s terribly rude to imply that people who let their cats out have it coming when they get hit, or ill. It’s not *expected.* We’ve had oh, 6 cats that have been indoor/outdoor… none got hit. Anecdata, but still.
anon
I had an indoor/outdoor cat growing up who bolted into the street to chase lizards all the time. He got hit by a car, twice, and died the second time (the first time he broke his leg). But he hated being indoors, and would wake my mom up and cry to be let out every day at 5:30 a.m. I think my parents were more in the “life lived fully” camp, even though it was a shorter life. (Also, they probably shouldn’t have had a cat, but I brought it home one night when I was 8 without asking them. My dad never liked cats, and my mom was super allergic to them.) Now I have two cats, and we never let them outside.
CountC
I see cats on leashes all the time in my little “city,” so not so much on that one. My indoor cats have no concept of what they would love about being outside because they are indoor cats. My indoor cats play, get to sit in the window, eat regularly, and don’t run the risk of getting hit by cars, in fights with other animals, scooped up by some person who thinks they are strays, picked up by birds of prey, etc.
KT, I am like you on this re: loose dogs and outdoor pet cats. If we are choosing to accept the cat as a PET, not a working cat such as a barn cat, then we should take steps to protect it as best we can. In my (judgypants) mind, that means reducing its risk of death or injury. Can you protect it all the time? No. But you can take many steps to do so that are not incredibly hard. No one is perfect, and cats sometimes escape, I get it, but yea, I’m going to be judgy as hell about this and I don’t care what that says about me.
cbackson
Note: the fact that cats like to chase birds (BTW, my dog loves chasing birds, but he’s leashed unless he’s at the dog park) is a very good reason not to let them outside – cats aren’t native to North America, and they’re verrrrrrrry bad for our (dwindling) native songbird population.
Nancy Raygun
Yeah, cats aren’t always great hunters, but they do hunt more or less constantly when they’re outside. I’ve always had cats and I’ve had a couple recently who were raised outside (BY OTHER PEOPLE, YOU GUYS DON’T YELL AT ME) and they were constantly trying to get outside. 2 went missing and I was devastated. Never again, y’all. My current cat was my MIL’s and he is used to be tied out. It’s super weird, but he seems happier than when he’s stuck inside and at least this way he won’t kill my neighbor’s chihuahua or get eaten by a coyote. I’m raising kittens to live indoors from now on.
Killer Kitten Heels
Off-topic to your main point, but you absolutely can teach a cat to be outside on a leash – my brother has a harness and leash for his cat that he uses when they go out on his apartment terrace, so the cat can come outside with him without being at risk of falling off the second-story terrace. The cat isn’t “going on a walk,” per se, but it’s a heckuva lot safer than just opening the door and letting the cat out to wander.
Nati
I’m really horrified that people think it’s okay for their domestic cats to disturb and kill migrating songbirds. Cats have helped decimate bird populations worldwide and I think it’s irresponsible for cat owners (who might also consider themselves “animal lovers”) to turn a blind eye to reality.
anon8
I never let my cats go outside on their own because it’s too dangerous. My big tabby boy loves being outside and I let him roam free in the yard when I get home from work. I stay outside to keep an eye on him. He’s harness trained and I’ll also take him on walks.
My father in law lives out in the country and has outdoor only cats because they are somewhat feral.
To answer your question, I don’t know why people let their cats out to roam. There are safe ways for them to enjoy the outdoors.
KT
Awww I’d love to see pics of the kitty in harness!
anon8
I’ll post the links in a separate comment! Two of my three cats are harness trained.
anon8
Kitty pics
https://m.imgur.com/H12RhH1
https://imgur.com/z4TCtOQ
KT
OH MY GOODNESS. LOOK AT THE TEENY TINY HARNESS. Do you spend the whole walk squealing? because thats what i would do
Anonymous
More anecdata but I now live in a neighborhood where a couple walks their two dogs on leashes and their cat trots along with them (not on a leash but keeping up with the rest of the family). It’s adorable.
As a side note, I don’t love finding cat poop from my neighbors’ cats all around my garden. Outside cats work much better in rural areas and I think most rescue groups recommend keeping cats indoors. As with all pets, they’re safer inside or under supervision.
I had a cat (now deceased) that I kept indoors and I’m sure he would have preferred to be outside, but he was very aggressive and would have been in fights constantly so I kept him indoors and I think he lived much longer because of that. My sister’s cat was outdoors and she now has a bb pellet permanently in her body. She became allergic to some pollen or something and develops breathing problems if she’s outside so she is now mostly indoors. She was bored and irritable at first but now she’s used to it.
KT
:( That’s so sad about the BB pellet-people are terrifying
Catlady
Whatever you do with you cat, make sure to spay/neuter and keep them up on shots. The average life span of an outdoor cat is 1-5 years, compared to their indoor counterparts at 12-20.
Anon
I grew up in rural farm country. We had three big mutt dogs, and two cats. They all lived 100% outside. They slept in the garage at night. They were “pets”, but they were not at all considered to be family members. They were just animals. That’s how it was for most pets in the area. Now that I live in the city I have two cats that are 100% inside. It’s just a completely different mindset.
Wildkitten
Same.
HSAL
We had one cat (of three) who insisted on going outside regularly. She used a litter box, but vastly preferred to go outside. We lived in a fairly slow neighborhood and she would hang out in our yard or the neighbor’s, who liked getting kitty visits. I think it’s very dependent on your area. I’ve lived in apartments and townhouses since then, where I would never let my current cat go outside.
Gail the Goldfish
Growing up, my cats were indoor/outdoor (on demand), because that’s what you did, and they hated being stuck inside. But we lived in the suburbs on 3 acres of land and they had room to roam and didn’t go near the road. (They lived to 12 and 18–one disappeared, we think attacked by a coyote, and the other my mom accidentally hit with the car in the driveway, when he was old and deaf and would walk toward the car when you got home instead of running away). Now I live in an apartment complex, and my 2 are definitely not allowed outside because high traffic/lots of dogs around. But if I lived somewhere with land, I’d probably let them out. One wouldn’t go, but the other one desperately wants to be an indoor/outdoor cat and makes a dash for the door every time we open it. He also enjoys his walks on his harness. And maybe it’s a city vs. suburb thing, but I also thing attitudes toward pets have changed over the past few decades from “just a pet” to “family member equal to human”. Growing up, I couldn’t fathom anyone taking their dog into a store (other than a pet store), because the dog was a pet and stayed home, usually in the yard. Now I see it not infrequently.
Anon
your cat got eaten by a coyote and another run over by a car and you’d still let them outside?
Anonymous
Go to hell.
Anonymous
Unbelievable.
oy
We should probably just have Gail drawn and quartered, don’t you think? She probably hasn’t sufficiently atoned for her sins. WTF is the matter with people on this board re; pets?
Gail the Goldfish
Yes, if I lived somewhere with land. And they would stay in at night (our’s always came in at night growing up). Like I said, I don’t let mine out now because I live in an apartment complex. But I honestly think part of the reason my cats growing up lived as long as they did was because they were indoor/outdoor and therefore got plenty of exercise (18 is *old* for a cat–even 12 is pretty good-and they never had any health problems). It’s of course purely anecdotal, but the purely indoor cats I know seem to have more health problems than the indoor/outdoor–lots of diabetes. My cats now have plenty of toys and playtime, but there’s only so much roaming you can do in a 4 room apartment. Cats aren’t stupid. They pretty good at avoiding cars, which are loud scary things.
Gail the Goldfish
(Also, incidentally, my cats were better at avoiding cars than my brother, who got hit by a car in a parking lot when he pulled away from my mother at age 4 and ran in front of a car. (He was fine.) We still let him outside after that. Life has risks. You balance them (and yes, my mother got us leashes after that. We were those kids you see on leashes). My cats growing up were happier going outside. We made sure they had their vaccines. They lived a pretty long time in excellent health. I won’t let my current cats out in our current living situation, and one wouldn’t want to go outside even if he could. Life isn’t black and white, people.)
anon for this
I let my cat go outside, as do my parents and one of my friends. We all live in suburban-to-rural areas, and in all three cases, the cats themselves were really unhappy indoors. My cat came from a shelter, and in her previous life she had lived outside for some time. We tried to keep her inside for the first two years that we had her, and she was very unhappy. She would stand at the sliding glass door and howl miserably. She would also pull her fur out in stress.
Now that she gets to go outside, she is so happy! She mostly spends the day lying on the deck in the sun, but she also stalks mice and climbs trees. I fully recognize that she might die several years earlier than she would otherwise, but I’d rather that she have a happy, shorter life than a miserable longer life.
Cb
We deliberated about it but he kept escaping through an open window and seemed happy / healthier when he was outside. He’s a rescue and we suspect he was outside before going to the shelter. The vet seemed okay with it, as long as we kept up with shots. We just put in a cat flap but it has a curfew on it so he’s only out during quieter times / not at night.
Anon
Whoa. I thought weddings were a touchy subject around here but clearly weddings and babies have nothing on pets…
KT
Yeah I had no idea I was unleashing the kraken with this one
JJ
This was so out of left field (the reactions to your question). I thought it was an honest, valid question.
Anonymous
Sorry I overreacted! Coming so soon after being told yesterday I was a monster for rehoming a dog it felt judgmental to me.
KT
No worries–it’s hard to tell tone on here sometimes. Really, there’s no judgment, just confusion on my part! Cats are such strange, foreign creatures to me.
Daisy
But, don’t you know there’s a right way and a wrong way, and if you have to ask, you clearly do it the wrong way? Because I do it the right way and it’s black and white. About everything.
Scottie
Eh? If you can’t ask about things you don’t understand then what can you ask about?
Wildkitten
She’s being sarcastic.
Anonymous
For folks who say that cats need to be outside – is that a nature or nurture thing? My cat absolutely hates outside. I used to try to take him on walks or let him roam in a safe enclosure because I thought cats needed/wanted some outdoors time, but he would just yowl and scratch at the door until I let him back in. He’s pretty territorial so I think he just hates venturing outside his territory. Ymmv, obviously, but in my admittedly limited experience, cat looking out the window =/= cat wanting to be outside.
KT
^That’s what I was wondering too. I see so many cats stretched out in front of the windows and they look so content! But I guess if they’re used to being outside, it wouldn’t work.
Cats are so outside my realm of knowledge. Dogs, snakes, giant lizards, horses, birds, I’m fine, but I don’t have the slightest clue about cat behavior or care
ml
I have two cats. One has zero interest in going outside, the other tries to sneak out every time it opens. They both love to sit in the window. Cats are weird.
KT
So I clearly worded this very poorly and I apologize. I didn’t mean to be judgmental, rude or cruel to cat owners…I really just didn’t understand and was trying to wrap my head around it and clearly asked in the wrong way.
Amanda
You didn’t. I’m shocked at the one anonymous commentor’s reaction – it’s not you. Signed, the evil cat lady who has no problem letting cats outside ; )
CountC
Agreed. You don’t need to apologize.
KT
Thanks all :)
Anonymous
Yeah these people are nuts. The insanity of these overreactions….
Catlady
I bet those people are a blast at parties
Spirograph
I never “let” my cat outside. He darts out the door if I’m not vigilant. Or whenever my kids open it. Then he runs away and hides under a bush so I can’t catch him. Some days he’s happy to stay in, but he gets wanderlust. I hate that he gets out because I like birds and squirrels and rabbits and know that domestic cats are a terrible threat to all of them. But I am not on my game 100% of the time, especially when I’m simultaneously trying to wrangle two small children.
Anonattorney
Squirrels? Really? Okay, I understand the songbirds thing and maybe even the cute little rabbit thing, but being concerned about death to squirrels . . . . It may be my PTSD from having a squirrel infestation in my attic that cost thousands of dollars to fix, but seriously – squirrels?
[I’m not really being serious. I just hate them. To me they’re essentially rats with furry tails that used to scamper through my ceilings and scritch scratch all night. **shudder**]
pugsnbourbon
A family of squirrels lived above my dorm room sophomore year of undergrad. I had the top bunk and those little f*ckers were NOISY. A maintenance guy would put a no-kill trap up there every few months … they’d just eat the bait and continue their loud child-rearing directly above my face every night.
Anonymous
Same thing happened to me but I was in an apartment complex so I couldn’t do anything about it myself. My complex insisted I was just crazy. The squirrels DUG A HOLE IN MY CEILING before they admitted that “maybe there are birds up there.” Birds don’t stick their furry dirty rabies faces through a hole they dug in your ceiling! My indoor kitty was very excited about the prospect of having new friends to play with.
KT
This is the most terrifying thing I’ve ever heard
Carrie
A squirrel ate through the plastic, accordion sides of our in-window air conditioner in an upstairs extra bedroom, rarely used. It was discovered when the little boy next door rang the doorbell and said “I just saw a squirrel go into your upstairs window. Bye!”
I quickly closed all doors to upstairs rooms, built a runway from the spare bedroom door to our front open door, and held a broom in my hand as I cautiously opened the door to the spare bedroom.
There was the squirrel. Standing in the window in the huge hole he had made. Staring me down. For 15 minutes I struggled with the broom to get him out of the room. He did not want to leave. He would sometimes exit the window, and then re-enter the other side. Even if I got close enough, I couldn’t close the window because the AC was bolted in. I started yelling at it. Finally, it lunged out the window and jumped all the way to the neighbor’s roof and ran away.
I walked over to the window to assess the damage. Just below, it had found a box of our financial records and had been shredding it to a pulp. I grabbed the garbage can and reached in the box to dump its contents. Then my hand found something … moving. I jumped up when I realized I had just reached into a nest of 5 squirrel babies.
I totally screamed and ran down the stairs.
What the h3ll do I do with the box of squirrel babies?!?! As I was contemplating this, I suddenly heard screaming from upstairs. High pitched screeching. And a lot of other noises. I grabbed the broom again, and ran up the stairs and back into the room.
All the babies were gone.
Mama wanted her babies.
And then I debated selling the house….
KT
I’m sorry to mock your pain, but I laughed really hard at this
Carrie.....
I’m so glad!
Nati
I’m happy someone mentioned this. As an environmental scientist, I would absolutely love for everyone to keep their cats indoors. They are decimating songbird populations around the globe. Can we please stop letting an animal that’s supposed to be domesticated destroy those that are wild? At the very least put a bunch of bells on your cat’s collar. PLEASE!
Spirograph
Yes to bells. So annoying when my cat goes crazy in the middle of the night, but I deal with it because I want to at least give the wild animals a chance… Not that it helps ground-nesting birds. I try to be extra careful to shut the cat in a bedroom before opening the door in the Spring when there are helpless hatchlings around. There are at least 4 other cats regularly outdoors on my street, but I do what I can. Cats are seriously awful — they’re predators, yes, but they also kill for sport/fun and not necessarily cleanly or quickly. (But I love mine anyway)
Squirrels in the attic do sound really annoying, though. Maybe I’ll reconsider my sympathy for them. :)
Nati
I’m with you on the squirrels! I hate to sound too crunchy granola (especially since you know now that I’m an environmental scientist and might already have assumptions anyways – hah) but I also believe in intrinsic worth of wildlife. I don’t believe it deserves to die just because it’s inconvenient for us sometimes if we’re not keeping up with our home maintenance.
KT
I never thought about the impact to bird populations.
Outdoor cat destroys my screens
As a cat owner, I HATE it when cats are outside unsupervised. I have an indoor cat and when the neighborhood cat comes around, the two of them tear up my screens “fighting” through the window. This happens at 2am and I have to get out of bed and shoo away the cat. Then he comes back 5 minutes later. Seriously, that dang cat has cost me close to $100 and whole afternoons remaking screens for my windows. The cat has no collar and I don’t know where it lives but I am so tempted to capture the dang thing and take it to the humane society as a lost pet just so the owners have to pay $60 to get him back.
Anon
I have outside cats so I will try to explain my thought process.
First of all, we always adopt strays, so they are used to being outdoors. Second, we get them the extra shots, like felv and rabies, that are more important for indoor/outdoor cats. Third, a cat that wants to get outside is going to get outside, particularly in a family with small children who aren’t always great about quickly closing the door (if closing the door at all.) fourth, selfishly, I hate litter boxes
I’ve had two cats get hit by cars in my 30 years and 12 cats of cat ownership. Those two were the feral-est of all the cats I’ve adopted and my kids were very young. The cats got out all the time.
We learned from that experience and now we make sure our two cats are mostly inside. We let them out when we come home from work, and make sure they come in at night before we go to bed. We have a litter box. They use it. I still hate it.
I forgot. A fifth reason to let them out is rodent control. One of my boys is a champion mouser/ratter.
KT
That’s helpful! Thanks for explaining
Chicago Suburbs Food Delivery or Grocery Delivery Recs?
A friend living in the Chicago suburbs will be going through a stressful time soon (she has a young child who will be undergoing major surgery and then the child will need many weeks of care at home and physical therapy to recuperate). I would like to send a big package of food and/or a gift certificate for grocery delivery so my friend has one less thing to worry about. Does anyone have any recommendations or thoughts for companies that cover that area? Most of the services I’m familiar with from the East Coast don’t operate in that area.
Shayla
Peapod should be a good bet. They deliver in a lot of areas.
You could also do a certificate to Standard Market or Marianos because they both have ready made meals that are always reliable (make sure there’s one close to her). Looks like Standard Market is on InstaCart too, so that may be an alternative route.
anon
We live right in that area and I would suggest Peapod for groceries, or jet/Amazon for other items. Also for the kid if they have bedrest- a few fun pajamas to switch up, and interesting books/magnatiles would work .
life
Whole foods also has nice prepared foods, and in many towns will deliver for a fee.
I’m in Chicagoland.
Anon
Maybe just go with gc. I was going to order delivered food for a friend when another friend told me so many people did that when her father died that she ran out of freezer space. She said the thought was nice but it was stressful to find a freezer to store everything.
Chicago Suburbs Food Delivery or Grocery Delivery Recs?
Thank you everyone! This was very helpful. And yes, I’m definitely planning some surprise book deliveries for the child (and her older sister, who I figure will also need some extra distractions during this stressful time).
Fit question
You all have such great advice about fit and tailoring I’m hoping you can help me. I’ve noticed that in dresses with back zippers, the zipper tends to pop up in the middle of my back when it’s zipped up. It’s like a little mountain range on my back. The dresses otherwise seem to fit and if I sized up I’d be swimming in fabric. What causes this issue? Is it something a tailor can fix or should I pass on the dress? Fwiw, I’m short and have a short torso.
emeralds
I also have a short torso and run into this frequently. My mom is an excellent home seamstress who does all of my alterations, and she says there’s nothing that you can do about this one, short of reconstructing the garment to change the zipper and the proportions of the bodice.
color me patterned
It sounds like the dress is too long in the back. I often have this problem because I am short and have a high waist. My b00bs make the front fit well, but the back is a different story. Sometimes this can be fixed by taking a dress up in the shoulder seam.
anon
Thank you for solving the mystery. I’m also short with a high waist and couldn’t figure out what was causing this. It’s easier to tell when there is too much fabric in the front and my generous chest often takes up the room.
OP
This describes my proportions too. Short all over, short torso, high waist, large bust. Does ordering in petite sizes help? I generally order a regular size in dresses because I prefer a longer hemline.
color me patterned
Petite sizes definitely help IME, although I hear you on longer hemlines.
Anonymous
This happens to me when a dress is big enough to fit over my butt but too big everywhere else.
Tunnel
Federal jury trial in the summer – only dark suits or can I wear a lighter colored suit too?
As for my question yesterday about open-toe shoes, I agree they are a no. I was just hoping to be wrong because I have such a cute and comfortable pair! But I am definitely not wearing hose in the summer. That’s ridiculous and frankly I think it makes me look out of touch to the jury.
CatToo
Grays would be ok. Wear hose — get sheer enough hose so you don’t look like a drum majorette. Close toe pumps, not too high.
Anonymous
Dark suits, closed toes shoes, and hose. You won’t look ridiculous. You will look like a professional who takes her job, and the fact that she is using the jury’s time, seriously and treats it with the formality and respect it deserves.
Anon in NYC
+1. I’m team hose generally, but I can’t imagine sitting in a jury box looking at a lawyer and thinking “she’s out of touch because she’s wearing hose.”
While I do think that a khaki colored suit can work for a jury trial, you should also be careful about sticking out if your colleagues/client/opposing counsel are all wearing dark suits.
anonymous
I’m not a lawyer, but I attend a liberal church in a liberal northeastern city regularly. This means I spend a lot of time chatting and gossiping with a wonderful circle of elderly ladies – the kind of people I imagine end up on juries quite frequently. And let me tell you: they notice bare legs, and don’t like it. I mean, it’s not like they’re going to hate you or something – but for that generation, it’s a subtle point against you. It is seen as being not-put-together, as flouting convention, or at best as not understanding how things are “supposed” to be. As putting your personal fashion preferences ahead of community standards. Obviously I don’t think it’s right – but it is reality, and you’re not going to change their minds.
anon in SV
When I clerked, sometimes I could hear the jurors chatting on breaks. Most of the jurors are older white women and men, but we also had a fair bit of older east asian, south asian, and latino women and men. They noticed when women weren’t wearing hose, PARTICULARLY younger women (those who looked under 40). They didn’t like it and would comment about it.
I would never, ever not wear hose in front of a jury. My job is to the best I can to represent my client’s interest, and part of putting on my best case is wearing hose. End of story.
anon in SV
I will also note that my female federal judge noticed bare legs and also commented in chambers about it.
Mindy
Haha, I don’t think the jury cares about the lawyers’ hose or non hose. I used to see them show up in bummy clothes and bring blankets.
In the SDNY you might want hose if it gets too cold (hello 60 indoor temp because all the men are wearing suits).
Carrie M
I don’t think wearing hose will make you look out of touch. IMO, bare legs are too casual for federal court. I think a light gray suit would be fine. I don’t know that I’d do a light tan or a seersucker or anything “summery.” I’d stick to more classic/formal colors and cuts.
Ellen
Yay Kat and Kate! This is beautiful SILK blouse. I have to RUN up to Time Warner @ lunch to see if they have MY size. I do NOT want to get something to small, or to large, but the price is right! I wish you had posted this last night so I could have just come to work LATE (but with this blouse!) FOOEY!
Re the OP and jury trieal’s, I agree with CatToo about Grey being OK in the summer. When I do my trieal’s, I NEVER wear open toe’d shoe’s. IN fact the manageing partner PROHIBITS open toe at work also, b/c he finds them UNPROFESSIONAL. Irregardless, you MUST wear hose, b/c the judge want’s to be abel to see your leg’s and NOT your leg hair’s. The jury will also want to evalueate your profesionalism, and that often turn’s on your clotheing. Men will NOT like a female attorney that does NOT act feminine, but forceful. Remember:
“Feminine but Forceful!” The manageing partner make’s me repeat this 15 times before each EBT, and 5x before trieals. If you are in Federal Court, the SAME rule applie’s to you and the entire HIVE! YAY!!!!
JJ
It depends on where your trial is. I had federal jury trial in the summer and the judge (older woman) required women in her court to wear skirt suits and hose.
Anonymous
Hose are not in style for young women in their 20’s, but if your jury does not entirely consist of that demographic you should wear them. Plus, the judge will certainly not appreciate the lack of them.
Former Federal Law Clerk
Erm. Other than the Judge in Nebraska who wrote the blog, I know of 0 federal judges who would comment on an attorney’s lack of wearing hose. Judges do not appreciate attorneys being ill prepared, not being punctual, or not following the court’s direction. Judges expect attorneys to dress appropriately — business formal — but would not hold it against an attorney (by ruling on motions or objections??) for not wearing hose.
Annie
It annoys me when people reference that they’re former federal clerks and then try to speak for the judiciary.
To contrast this, I’m also a former federal clerk (DCT and COA) and wore hose every day to work. I don’t think it’s necessarily about whether a judge will rule against your client because of your dress. That sounds ridiculous and I hope it would never happen. But judges have expectations and the court is entitled to respect. Dress conservatively, including wearing hose.
As for the hose, I want to add that I’m a big fan of L’eggs hose with no waistband / control top. They smooth you out without pinching at the waist. They’re the most comfortable I’ve found.
Former Federal Law Clerk
Who would be a better surrogate for their voice? For federal law clerks who develop close relationships with their judges and the clerk’s office and also have the opportunity to observe federal court more than most other attorneys, save an AUSA, many former federal clerks have a good read on what is appropriate or ventures into disrespectful territory.
I clerked for 6+ years and never wore hose, except when it was cold.
DCD
I’m surprised by the vehemence re: no bare legs in this post and yesterday’s post. I interned in a Federal court 15 years ago (when most women 30+ still wore hose whenever they wore business dress), and bare legs were fairly common in court, at least for motions hearings.
For the OP, you might get more targeted advice if you post the location of the court because there clearly seems to be regional variation. FWIW, I was in Baltimore and mostly saw criminal cases.
JJ
My trial was in front of a federal judge that absolutely commented when another female attorney did not wear hose. The judge saw it as a sign of respect for the court. (And that side won the case, so I doubt it affected the outcome)
Current Career Federal Clerk
Agreed. There are few federal judges that out-of-touch. The idea that judges are playing fashion police is a trope that is made up to scare women. Don’t listen to this BS.
Jules
Lighter colored suits are fine, I think, as long as they’re reasonably formal, and I wouldn’t start out with one for the first day or so. And I generally agree on hose over bare legs (maybe depending on how short your skirts are) but that’s not a hard-and-fast rule. But “ridiculous” and looking “out of touch to the jury?” No. The jury will not be made up of fashionistas or even young women; you’re more likely to be judged negatively by retirees on the jury for bare legs.
lawsuited
And even the fashionistas would not be offended by sheer hose with closed-toe pumps in a formal setting like a court room.
anon
I’m one of the people yesterday who told you hose are a must, and I stand by that. It is not business formal to have 1/4 of your body bare. If you’re not used to wearing hose, take some time to find some that are sufficiently sheer, don’t have a fake sheen, and match your skin tone. They exist. The point is not to have the jury notice you’re wearing hose but to have them not notice that you’re missing part of your business formal uniform.
But for today’s question, lighter colored suits are fine. I would say any shade of grey or tan is ok, as is a classic seersucker. You want to look like you’re dressed for a serious occasion, not for a funeral.
Bonnie
I’ll be the voice of dissent. I never wear hose in federal trials and it has never been a problem. They’re so sheer now, that nobody can tell unless they really stare at my legs. I don’t wear open-toed shoes in trial but would wear a lighter color suit. I also wear my more conservative suit separates (e.g. black skirt, black and white jacket).
Anonymous
Yeah, I don’t get it when people say “You MUST wear hose, find some that are sheer.” You may as well not wear them, then!
Anonattorney
I agree with this, and stand by my statement yesterday that it just really depends on where you are. Where I practice, hose are NOT necessary. They just aren’t.
Anonymous
+1 I’ve had several month long federal trials — two in summer months — and it has never, ever been an issue.
Anonymous
It’s probably very dependent on what region of the country you’re in. I never wore them in California and would say the vast majority of women didn’t either, but my Midwestern colleagues were horrified when I told them that.
Anonymous
My coworker dropped the ball on an aspect of a project we’re working on together, something that was his responsibility, and is blaming me. Now he’s acting coldly towards me because I called him out on it. GRR!!! I hate people.
Capsule help
I am hoping to create a capsule wardrobe, at least for work, which is business casual leaning business (less creativity, more blazers, but not necessarily a suit every day). How many distinct outfits (i.e. combinations) do people think are necessary (I work on a small team and see the same people every day – I can spice it up for the once or twice a week I see a client)? 10? 15?
lawsuited
I have a capsule wardrobe, and I tend to think in terms of number of pieces and then make sure that most if not all of the pieces go together. I choose my suits/seperates based on what fits best and then choose blouses that can go with every suit/seperate and then accessories/shoes than can go with at least half of the blouses. With 3 suits, 2 jackets, 2 dresses, 2 cardigans and 8 blouses I end up with a TON of outfits.
Killer Kitten Heels
Depends on how distinctive your color/pattern choices are. I keep my capsule at about 10 combos + the occasional “statement” piece, but I wear all solid colors and 99% neutrals to work, so nothing I wear is particularly remarkable, and I have no qualms about wearing the same pair of black pants twice in one week if I happened to do laundry on Wednesday. If you wear a lot of bright colors/patterns/distinctive pieces, 15 probably makes more sense because each individual look will be more memorable, so you’d likely want more space between wearings.
color me patterned
I think a three week rotation is ideal because it’s plenty of variety but still would give a sense that clothes are being worn regularly/consistently, which to me is a big reason to have a capsule wardrobe.
color me patterned
I made this as a sample capsule wardrobe. It might be a little on the larger side, because I think you could do at least 6 weeks worth of outfits if you wanted to. It’s amazing how many combinations can be made from relatively few items.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzX7pFaODPEBd3BTS29uWkltSks4bVF5bDBkNEhrVTJ3eUVv
anon
To me, a three week rotation is not a capsule. It’s just a regular wardrobe. I think 7 outfits could be plenty for a capsule — seriously, what is the harm in re-wearing outfits? — but 10 might allow for less laundry.
Bonnie
The blogger at Blue Collar Red Lipstick does monthly capsule wardrobes and recaps them at the end of the month.
Moving
Is it okay to tell interviewers that you’re moving cross-country while your fiancé is in graduate school? My resume is a little job hoppy (2 jobs in 3 years after graduation and in different fields). I don’t want them to wonder if I’ll only be there for a two-year stint only to move again, but I can’t guarantee we will stay in the area after graduation. Am I overthinking this?
I may be worrying about the whole transition too much. I accepted a job 8 months ago in my current area knowing my fiancé was applying to schools out of state. The people here are so nice and my firm is small, so I know leaving right before their busy season will be tough on them. Does the Hive have any advice/scripts I can use when I give notice? I’m moving down a month after him because I want to give my current firm extended notice of about a month.
Anonymous
I mean sure it’s ok but why would they want to hire you when you are leaving in 2 years? I think it would hurt you in the process.
Moving
Leaving in two years isn’t a sure bet, but it is a possibility. About 50% of the people from his program stay in the area.
Killer Kitten Heels
Do you *need* to move to be with your fiancé? I mean, I totally get why you want to on a personal level, but is it really the best thing for your career? My now-H and I were apart while I was in law school, and while it wasn’t 100% ideal, we made it work, because he needed to be where he was for his career, and I went to a top-3 law school a few states away. Two years is not that long in the grand scheme of your life as a couple, but spending the first 5 years of your working life hopping from job to job is tough to recover from.
(And honestly, I think stuff like this is part of what underlies the wage gap – I’d love to know how many men job hop because they’re following romantic partners vs. how many women do the same.)
Anonymous
Agreed. I’m usually team move with your partner but for just two years when you’re young, unmarried, and haven’t built a career?
Anonymous
Agreed. My husband and I were long distance for two years while he did a postdoc (we were in our late 20s). It definitely wasn’t ideal but I can’t imagine having the career I have no if I’d followed him. When he moved to begin his postdoc I was only two years out of law school and less than one year into my first real job (I had done some contract/temp work before that job but nothing with a consistent work history). I ended up staying at that job for more than four years and was able to easily get a new job when we moved for his next position. If I’d moved with him then I would have had a year or so of contact work, less than a year in my first job, and then who knows what in his location – probably more contract work or unemployment for another two years. I can’t imagine translating that into steady full-time legal employment…no one is going to want to hire someone who is four years out of school and hasn’t held a real job for more than a year.
Anon
+1. We are in this exact situation right now because we decided that Team Us would benefit most from being apart for a short time rather than either of us torpedoing great career opportunities. We see each other about every three weeks. It’s working out just fine, and the end is in sight!!
Moving
I didn’t make this clear above, but I was at my first job for 2 years, the second will end up at 9 months. I also worked in college in a rotating program doing data analysis for 4 years.
Moving
But yes still job hopping on a resume.
Moving
I should’ve been clearer why I want to move in the original post. New city is LCOL city where friends live, a change from our HCOL city where I’d be alone and in a job I am indifferent about with no growth opportunities in a dying sector. The university has a host of great degree programs, and I’m considering going back to school myself in a one-year program for a career change. I did not want to go back right away so I could get work experience and get a sense of what I wanted to do. And we’ve done long-distance in the past for about 2 years while I was still in undergrad, but the new city seems like it’ll be ripe with career opportunities for me too so I want to move for those reasons as well.
In the meantime though, I will need a job, so I am curious about how to market myself and how to leave my current job with as little ill-will as possible. Any advice on that?
KT
I think you have a very uphill battle ahead of you. Leaving your current job after less than a year during their busiest season is going to leave a bad taste in their mouths, no matter how you word it. It could impact the reference they’re willing to give you and make things much more challenging.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t do it–that’s between you and your fiance-but you need to have your eyes open to the fact that it may be difficult to find work for a while. If you move and struggle to find work, will fiance be able/willing to support you?
DCD
How long is your busy season? If you could stay behind in your old job until you get through that, I think it could go a long way towards fostering goodwill with your current firm. If you would consider this approach, I’d suggest telling your manager that you will be moving to new city but can be flexible about staying through X date in the future if they want you to. I wouldn’t do this if your industry/new city has a distinct hiring season that you’d miss by staying behind in old city.
As for your original question, I wouldn’t refer to your fiancé’ school as the reason for the move. You’re relocating together because you prefer the new city and have a strong network and like the opportunities in X industry.
Moving
Thanks DCD, I appreciate the response and your phrasing. And it’s very true too, our friends form a great network which has helped me line a few interviews so far. I think I’ll say better opportunities as the reason I wanted to move, my skills are mostly transferable even though from another field.
As for the busy season, it could last from 2 months to 3 years depending on the contract. The firm is never too busy (declining demand for our service area) but last month a client put in a huge request and a chunk of someone’s duties will be reassigned to me in the next two months. I figured that if I gave them 1 month’s notice, I could train my replacement with plenty for that shift to take place. I think it’d be better for the continuity of the project too. I got the role with no prior experience, but it is a very common field and someone with a certificate would be able to get up to speed quickly (there’s also an abundance of candidates in my area).
Meg Murry
Can you stay in your current position and do long distance until you can find a job in the new city? You can use his new address and in your cover letters state that you are “planning to move to new city by the end of 2016” or similar language.
I wouldn’t put this in the cover letter necessarily, but I think you could use the phrase “moved/moving to NewCity for my fiance to get his Masters and we’re planning (or hoping) to settle here for the long term.” The reality might be that the “hoping” is actually “hoping to stay here as long as we don’t hate it and fiance doesn’t find a better job elsewhere in 2 years when he graduates” – but you don’t need to elaborate on that.
Sarabeth
N=1, but my husband has followed me three times (which is three times more than I’ve followed him). One of those moves was great for his career, one was pretty bad, and the third was neutral. It’s been long enough stints (three years, five years, hopefully staying forever in our current city) that it doesn’t come across as job-hopping, though it does probably raise questions about why he left excellent job in City A for much less prestigious job in City B.
HSAL
They will wonder. And you’re likely to have difficulty getting a job in the future. Unless you’re willing to always put your career second to your husband’s (and I honestly don’t mean that to judge, it’s your life choice), then I’d suggest you seriously consider trying to make long distance work for a couple years. My husband and I talked about the possibility of going long-distance if he took a post-doc elsewhere, but we have a kid now and it’s just not realistic for me now, so I’m not sure what we’ll do if that becomes an issue. But in your situation I’d try to make that work. If it doesn’t, then okay, maybe move with them. But you may have a problem getting jobs in the future.
Anonymous
Eh… I seem to disagree with many folks here. It seems like you’re a little more junior in your career (a few years out of college maybe?). I think you get a little more leeway there, especially when the move after 9 months includes a relocation. You just want to be sure your new job in the new place is one you can stay at for a couple of years, or go back to school yourself. As for why you’re moving, no need to say grad school – you can say moving to be closer to family or relocating for partner’s new opportunity.
As for leaving your current job, these things happen. Giving plenty of notice (if they’re not likely to push you out early), writing good documentation, and working full steam until the end will protect your reputation if the people you work with are at all reasonable. People get moving to new places!
Good luck with your life transition!
Moving
Thanks! I’m really excited about the move, and thanks for the support.
I appreciate others saying to not forsake my career trajectory for my SOs, but I’m still a only couple years out of school and very much in the entry-level/associate phase of my career. And I have an awakened desire to pursue a new field in which my skills can transfer well.
And the good documentation is a a great suggestion, I’ve started to make a Word doc at home with timelines and next-steps for main client, but I should cover all my clients and admin tasks as well.
Scarlett
I was thinking this too – you actually seem pretty stable for someone that junior. I don’t think “job hopping” (if you can even call it that at this phase) is that big a deal right out of school while you’re figuring out where you ultimately want to live and whether grad school is something you want to do. I’d encourage my younger self to have done more of it – tried more things, moved around and not tried to act like I was 40 when I was 20. My advice, quit your current job “nicely” – give more notice than you need to if you can, get things organized so you’re not dumping unfinished work on people, and don’t stress about telling a potential employer why you’re moving back to an area. FWIW, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with staying together with your spouse – it doesn’t automatically mean you’re going to follow his career, and that the relationship is important to you and that’s okay.
Feet issues?
I’ve recently noticed that, when standing for long periods of time, I will kind of roll the inside edge of my feet “up” so that I feel like I am standing more on the outside edge of my feet — although if I re-create this sensation/watch myself do it while barefoot, it really just looks like I’m raising the inside edge of my foot so that it isn’t as far down. It seems to take some pressure off my knees. I’ll do it in flats, boots, sneakers, sandals, whatever.
What is this called? Is it a shoe issue? A physical issue? A non-issue? Do I need to see a shoe store or a podiatrist (or someone else)?
lawsuited
It may be that your arches are falling and this movement corrects your arch. All the muscles and tendons in our legs are so interconnected that weakness in your foot or ankle can have an impact on your knees or hips. I’d recommend seeing a podiatrist about getting orthotics that could do that correction for you all day long. I got a pair of low profile orthotics (that fit into flats) last year and they have really changed my life.
Anonymous
It’s called supination. If I had to guess I’d say you probably have higher arches and a foot shape that is more curved. An arch support can help, or wearing shoes with good support (like Birkenstocks instead of regular flat sandals). Stretching is also a good idea if you start to notice issues with achilles tendonitis or plantar fasciitis.
Betty
I do this all the time. For me, it results from weak arches. If it is causing pain, check with a podiatrist.
Snick
I do that too. It’s called supination when you walk/run more on the outsides of your feet (opposite of pronation). It is common for people with high arches. It can cause problems for runners such as Achilles tendinitis, which I have experienced.
Anonymous
I have high arches and this is one of the reasons I rarely wear flats. Wedges and heels, even if they’re pretty low, seem to eliminate this problem for me.
For the weekends, I wear Obikashi (sp?) flip flops in the summer and Dr. Scholl’s inserts in my boots in the cooler months.
tree
I’m going to Breckenridge, CO next week for a last minute conference. Any tips on good places for coffee, food, something fun to do when there’s time? Thanks!
Anonymous
It’s not in Breckenridge, but the Betty Ford Alpine Gardens in Vail are nice if you’re up for taking a drive.
anne-on
My favorite thing to do in Vail is get an ice cream cone in Vail village, and walk to the Alpine garden (just under a mile away I think?) and then ready a book in the sun on one of their benches – highly recommend it! I’m also not a hiker, but the berrypicker trail in Vail is very pretty and not too challenging.
K120
Check out the NRO along the river walk. They usually have afternoon practices where you can hear some great classical music and sit by the river.
There a lot of cute coffee shops. Cool River Coffee is one of my favorites, but the Crown is good too.
Anon
Starting a two week trial in the next few weeks, first one that long. How many suits are necessary to get through e two week? I have one black skirt suit, one charcoal suit jacket with matching skirt and pants, and one navy with skirt and pants. Can I just recycle my already worn suits the second week?
Anonymous
Yeah I think so. If I’m understanding right, you’re saying you have five suits? I think five suits is plenty for 10 days.
Jules
Yes, I think you’re fine, unless the suits are in some way super-distinctive or memorable. Change up your blouses/jewelry/scarves whatever, the jury won’t notice, or care, that it’s the same black suit.
anon-oh-no
that is more than enough. e.g. (making sure to mix blouses, at least by the week)
Week 1
M: Black skirt suit
Tu: navy pant suit
W: charcoal skirt suit
Th: Black skirt suit
Fri: charcoal pant suit
Week 2
M: navy skirt suit
Tu: charcoal pant suit
W: Black skirt suit
Th: navy pant suit
Fri: charcoal skirt suit
aBr
Don’t forget to factor in weather. NOLA in the summer meant no suits made it more than a day.
scapegoat
Wise ladies, I need advise. I’m providing enough details that I’m sure I’ll get outed, so hey friends! if you’re reading.
I am a fairly junior associate in a large law firm (3ish years experience) in a niche practice area (that I love). I have about 1 year of experience practicing in this niche area at this firm.
I report to three partners. One is an abusive @sshole. He belittles me, he insults my intelligence and my work ethic, and accuses me of being lazy and not taking my career seriously. He routinely threatens that the client will fire the firm because of me. He sets unreasonable deadlines, hoards information, and does not give clear assignments, despite repeated requests for clarification. All of the other partners I currently work for are very happy with me and my work, and this has been the case with every partner I’ve worked for previously. The worst part is that this @sshole partner regularly blames me for his mistakes. In fact, it appears as if his primary interest in having me work on his projects is to use me as a scape goat. He has blamed me for issues like his failure to take all necessary documents to meetings, errors in calculations and typos, failure to get materials to the client in a timely manner. He does this in writing, in long email screeds (he refuses to discuss in person, despite requests). He lies through his teeth and twists stories around to blame me for his mistakes. If I give push back, he changes his story and accuses me of failing to take responsibility for my mistakes. Of course, he gives me bad reviews. Because I don’t work directly with any of the partners on exec committee, they don’t have first-hand knowledge to counter his reviews. I’ve been told that this is his regular behavior. FWIW, he’s only been at our firm for 2 years (firm hopping partner…).
I am generally looking for a new job and I document everything. I have confided in one partner I trust and who goes to bat for me, but who generally does not have much power in the firm (and brings in less business than the @sshole). Others are aware of the problem, but no one has done anything to address it and this has been going on for months. Until January, he was responsible for about 60% of my work. He actually decided I was so terrible that he stopped giving me work entirely a few months ago, and began ignoring me– except to blame me for any failure he can. I am doing my best to stay busy with work for other partners, and have been sufficiently busy, but its not clear how long that will last.
My impression is that I do not have a long term future at a firm where a partner routinely blames me for significant errors- either because I’ll go insane, or my reputation will be destroyed, or both. I’d love general advice on how to handle the situation- should I just leave? Is there any other solution? My specific question is how to handle the instances where he blames me. Do I draft response emails with citations? Send them to him (he escalates the argument from there)? Send the response to excom? To another partner? Just leave it alone? Bring it up in my review in a few weeks? I feel like I can’t let the accusations stand, but I don’t know the best vehicle for refuting them. I don’t want to make the situation worse.
This situation is hopeless, isn’t it? Anyways, sorry for the novel, but I’m at my wit’s end. Thank you, ladies.
Anonymous
Leave. It is hopeless. You can’t defend yourself. Unless you have a more powerful partner willing to go to bat for you, you need to leave.
Killer Kitten Heels
Any of the methods of refutation are fine, because none of them actually matter, because your firm has decided that business generation is more important than having a work culture that doesn’t include raving @ssholes. Keep your head down, try to keep busy, and leave ASAP. You have partners who can vouch for your work – use them as references as you apply for your next position, and you should be fine. If anyone asks why you’re looking to leave your current firm in an interview, do NOT mention d-bag partner – say whatever makes the most sense for the firm you’re interviewing with (better pay/better commute/more opportunity to gain experience in X or focus on Y/etc.), because fair or not, giving “I don’t get along with a key rainmaker in my practice group” as your reason for leaving won’t help you in an interview.
Anon in NYC
+1. 100% agreed. Your firm values the money this partner brings in more than how he treats associates. As a rainmaker, he’s always going to have a lot of influence in the partnership so it’s unlikely he is going to change.
WestCoast Lawyer
I generally tend to agree. However, I would still document everything, and when your review comes up make at least a passing attempt to refute a few of the things that you can factually counter. If this partner is consistently horrible to everyone, he will develop a reputation as such (or he already has) and the exec committee should be able to see through this and realize that if he is giving you terrible reviews but everyone else is giving glowing reports that the problem lies with him. Which is not to say you shouldn’t consider leaving, because you should not have to put up with this jerk.
DCD
Ultimately, you might have to leave, but I think it’s extremely significant that this is a firm hopping partner who has been at your firm for 2 years. This guy sounds like a risk management nightmare, and it’s not like his current partners have any true loyalty to him.
If his errors are actually things that could lead to malpractice claims against the firm (i.e. More like miscalculations/significant drafting errors and less like forgetting to bring documents to a meeting), I’d love to see you talk to your practice group leader or the firm’s general counsel. If nothing else, the GC would want to know that this moron is creating detailed records of mistakes that would be discoverable in a suit against the firm. I know that this is highly likely to blow up in your face, so I’m not sure I really recommend it until you have a new job offer in hand- even then I’d tread carefully.
scapegoat
Thanks for your response! I initially hoped that he’d leave/get fired from our firm, too, and that I could wait him out. I don’t think I can last another 2-3 years. I think you’re right that the only loyalty the other partners have is so long as he’s bringing in business.
Some of his errors are things that could lead to a malpractice claim, or losing clients (I suspect this is already happening with one). One of them resulted has already resulted in a substantial economic loss to a major client… and one of the meetings he forgot documents for was a settlement negotiation with the g*damned Department of Justice. The good part is that at least some other partners are somewhat aware… but … I’m not going to martyr myself at this point.
Killer Kitten Heels
Not to scare you, but based on what you’re writing here, his ranting screeds aren’t just diatribes from an erratic narcissist – he’s creating a paper trail that could result in a malpractice claim against *you* if something major goes down in flames. This idiot is jeopardizing your license to practice law – document your end of everything as thoroughly as possible, and get away as soon as you can.
FWIW, I’m sorry this is happening to you, and good luck in your job search. You can’t afford to “wait out” this walking malpractice claim.
scapegoat
Oh believe me, I know this is all going straight into my file. I’ve got extensive documentation to rebut everything, but no one wants to live/practice like that, and frankly I doubt any of the powers that be care to see it.
I appreciate hearing it from others, though. I know you’re right. :(
Meg Murry
I’m not in law so maybe this isn’t helpful, but does he work with other associates and is he an a-hole to them too?If he gives all associates he works with scathing reviews, would that be taken into consideration – like a professor that never has anyone get more than 50% on an exam so the whole class is graded on a curve?
You mention “Because I don’t work directly with any of the partners on exec committee, they don’t have first-hand knowledge to counter his reviews.” – is there any way to get work with those partners to develop a good reputation? Or are none of them in your niche?
Killer Kitten Heels
There may be a little bit of a curve, in the sense that she may not get fired for the bad reviews, but there’s enough internal competition at most law firms that these reviews are pretty likely to prevent or severely impede OP from making partner, and in the event of a need for lay-offs, I’d imagine she’d be lower on the “people to save” totem pole, since they have built-in justifications for laying her (and the partner’s other targets) off first. Overall, she’s in a bad spot. :(
scapegoat
ugh, typo in my first sentence… advice*
Right now he only works with me, but before me he drove off a poor first year (they stuck him in another section). We are the only two he’s worked with so far, so few data points. I fear KKH is right.
I am working to get projects for other partners and to some degree I’ve been able to do that- which is great- but the major players aren’t in my niche. So the work I do for theirs client generally gets filtered through another partner in my group.
I think I have to face the fact that I have to leave… the question now is when and how to handle in the meantime. It blows- I love everything else about this job.
under my jacket...
I have many blouses that are sleeveless.
I am imagining a simple, thin covering…. like a very thin ?cardigan… that I can wear over my sleeveless blouse, but under my jacket. This would help keep me from sweating all over my suit jacket and help me minimize the laundering of my suit jackets.
Has anyone every done anything like this?
HSAL
What about underarm guards instead? I’ve never tried them myself but the idea of a cardigan and jacket makes me sweat right now, and I’m usually always cold.
under my jacket...
I’ve never heard of these. Thanks for the idea.
Cardigan was more than I was imaging…. I do have a paper thin, cap sleeve, “cardigan” that almost works but has design features that mean it shows in the front if I wear a jacket on top. So I was thinking something even more simple might exist.
Anonymous
You’re looking for like a jacket-liner or a jacket undershirt, yes?
I don’t know if either such thing exists, but I have used pantiliners in the underarms of my jackets during the summer.
lsw
I have, too, and surely someone can invent something that is better than that! Like some sort of silk liner shrug? I don’t know. But this drives me crazy.
Under my jacket...
Yes!
And honestly, I’d like a warmer one for winter!
Meg Murry
Ok, so maybe this is crazy, but could you find a way to attach the black version of something like this to inside your jacket as a liner? I’m thinking attach it with hook and eye or similar – you could wear the jacket all day, then take out the liner and throw that in the washer?
http://www.kleinerts.com/productdetail.php?prod=1259N
Is that crazy? Because I’m seriously considering asking my aunt who is great at sewing if she could make me something similar. I see tutorials for putting in snap in and out dress shields, but it seems like that would show more if someone saw the lining of your jacket than this?
Meg Murry
Do you need to wear your suit jacket all day? Or could you change it out for a cardigan when you are working alone in your office and switch back to the suit jacket for meetings?
Under my jacket...
I could….. But then I’d still love to have a liner to keep my sweaters cleaner!
Anonymama
I have a very thin cotton cardigan, elbow length sleeves, from old navy that I often wear under jackets, if I think I’ll take off the jacket but still be too chilly to go sleeveless. It is a v neck and doesn’t usually show, and isn’t too bunchy if I leave it open with sides sort of pulled back under the jacket.
Similar to this, but mine may be more fitted:
http://m.oldnavy.gap.com/product.html?dn=op206691052&dv=1&sdkw=relaxed-hi-lo-cardi-for-women-P206691&kwid=1&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oldnavy.com%2FcommonDomainFrame.do%3FtargetURL%3D%252Fbrowse%252Fproduct.do%253Fpid%253D206691052%2526vid%253D1%2526locale%253Den_US%2526kwid%253D1%2526sem%253Dfalse%2526sdkw%253Drelaxed-hi-lo-cardi-for-women-P206691%2526sdReferer%253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.oldnavy.com%25252Fproducts%25252Fwomens-cardigan-sweaters.jsp%26sem%3Dtrue&locale=en_US&sdReferer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oldnavy.com%2Fproducts%2Fwomens-cardigan-sweaters.jsp&pid=206691052&sem=false&vid=1
white pants with butt lift?
Any white jeans out there with some additional structure in the butt, to pull together my pancaking butt a little?
I have some pricey Citizens of Humanity jeans (98% cotton, 2% polyurethane) that are a bit stiff and I thought that would give me the “structure” I need. But actually with washing the butt in these pants is kind of a mess and doesn’t provide good support.
What is the fabric mix I am looking for? And of course, I need a fabric that isn’t so thin that it will show too many dimples.
But maybe I should give up on white skinnies and just get some sort of boyfriend style. I’m pear shaped.
Thoughts?
Anon
I think the mix you are looking for is squats, lunges, and deadlifts.
Anonymous
The OP wasn’t looking for snarky judgment.
white pants with butt lift?
Actually, I don’t mind this response at all! I do need to do more of these.
Unfortunately, I’m in my late 40’s now, and some things change a bit more with age, despite best efforts. I also have a large rear so somethings are going soft, despite efforts….
white pants with butt lift?
I meant some things are going “South”, despite efforts…
Mindy
I was also going to say Squats. or running. apparently running makes my butt lift.
Anonattorney
Try NYDJ. They have white jeans and are known for providing butt shaping and lift.
anon8
+1 I really like their jeans.
white pants with butt lift?
Thanks for this rec.
I did buy a pair of their cords in the winter… white actually… but wound up not wearing. They were a bit high waisted and for some reason made my butt look huge. Although they were comfortable. They weren’t designed for a butt lift though.
I’ll take a look. Thanks!
DCD
Try Madewell. I just got a pair of white cropped skinnies that have fairly thick fabric and well placed pockets.
O Hare Travel?
Crazy or not crazy?
Given some last minute changes around home, I am seriously considering a weekend trip to take my toddler to visit Grandma. A points ticket is, shockingly, available. But would I be totally nuts to attempt O’Hare and the security lines this weekend??
Anonymous
Yes!! Don’t put yourself through that with a toddler. Can you take a different route?
Anonymous
I’ve heard it’s a lot better. I don’t think it’s crazy at all. Just allow plenty of time.
HSAL
As of last week, they were tons better. I was able to walk right up to the security counter at 10:30 in the morning, which has never happened before.
Anon
Hive, I could use a shopping kick in the pants. I’ve needed to refresh my entire business casual wardrobe for two years now and finally regained a full time but still modest income. My 6-y.o. wardrobe is mostly AT Outlet and BR Outlet with some old navy, etc. I’ve been actively shopping for several months now with almost no luck buying anything. AT and BR styles and colors are no longer working for me and their full prices are too much for my general per-piece budget. Old navy and target quality and fit aren’t usually there for me. Why is everything at Loft see-through? I’ve tried a few pieces from Lands End recently and I like the quality/value but have been hit or miss on the fit looking matronly. I’m sure this has been asked before, but how would you tackle replacing your business casual wardrobe if you were trying to keep costs to $20-$50 per piece on average, but still okay quality?
Anonymous
I wouldn’t. Your budget is too low. I’d spend more per item and buy fewer clothes.
Anonymous
Disagree. You can get The Limited for this price if you wait for sales/promotions (I never buy anything there unless it’s at least 50% off). I typically spend about $50 on a dress or jacket from there and $20-30 for a blouse or sweater. The quality is quite good for the price. I think it’s at least on par with AT and BR.
H&M also has lots of nice blazers. They don’t do sales as often but I think their average blazer price is ~$40 without sales.
Moving
Better yet, recycle some of your old clothes at H&M and they’ll give you a 15% off coupon. I second their blazers.
Mindy
I find that I get better mileage out of the same $50 I spend at BR (stalking their sales section) than at BR outlet. So, if I see a BR suit skirt at around $50 or less, I scoop it up. All the BR outlet items I’ve purchased in the past look okay that season, but I find that it isn’t as nice, or there is something wrong with it that I donate it relatively quickly.
By stalking sales, I usually get my BR/AT suiting at around $50 for skirts/pants $100 for jackets, and $75ish for dresses.
white pants with butt lift?
Consignment stores.
lsw
I agree with this. It’s more time-consuming, but if you know your fit in brands, you can buy at consignment stores or places like eBay (sort new with tags, check reviews). I agree with posters above that I’d rather spend more and get a bit less. What about lower-end Nordstrom brands? The benefit there is their amazing return policy. And you can get Pleione or Halogen shirts there in your price range during the current anniversary sale, I’d imagine.
MKB
Consignment, and also ebay/poshmark once you know what works for you size/brand-wise.
Anonymous
Ah! Brand sizing can be so inconsistent, though…
I measure something that fits me, and get measurements on anything I’m interested in buying.
That way, if sizing differs between colors/years/styles, it doesn’t really matter…
Anonattorney
Oof, yeah, I just don’t think you can at that price range. I mean, you can’t even really find okay quality pieces when you are spending $75-$100 on suit separates. If I were you, I’d just shop on really deep discount or thrift stores to see if you can get lucky.
CHJ
I would focus on sales. I’ve gotten decent work pants from BR and J Crew on final clearance (usually online, although you can get lucky in store) for $30-$40. It helps to know your size and which styles work for you ahead of time, so you can take advantage of online sales. Also, Marshalls/TJ Maxx/Nordstrom Rack, especially the ones near the business district in your city.
Shayla
I disagree that the price point is absolutely too low. If you settle to mentally thinking $50 on **average**, a **business casual** wardrobe will be just fine. Start with one piece at a time, and don’t focus on another piece until you get it. Think capsule. Take what you have, figure out what you love. Then figure out what you need replace/upgrade. Aim for replacing 1 piece a month. That way your budget stays in check and you’re taking your time. But definitely check out consignment, deep sales, and outlets. Check out The Vivienne Files.com for ideas.
SillyValley
I agree that a $50 avg is doable but it’s going to take some time and patience. First off, if you can identify some brands/sizes that work for you, try to get some of them secondhand, either at local consignment or thrift, or online on ebay, ThredUp, Poshmark etc. That will lower your per item cost for some things and let you spend more on items that sell out before they go on sale, etc.
AT and Loft both carry more basics and more solidly-constructed items online than they do in store, so get into a routine where you check their new arrivals every week or two and note down what might fill a gap, so when they have one of their sales you can snatch some things up. You might try Gap for non-jeans trousers, chinos etc. Talbots is another place that skews somewhat matronly but individual pieces tend to be solidly constructed.
I’d also make friends with your local department store – preferably somewhere like Macy’s or Lord & Taylor. They’ve both got some really good house lines that are generally high quality for the price. Alfani and Charter Club @ Macy’s, plain Lord & Taylor brand @ L&T etc. Although I love Nordstrom, I think their house brands can be more inconsistent and there’s less variety available at a time – but Halogen is worth looking at for business casual.
lucy stone
How business casual is your workplace, and what about AT and BR are no longer working for you?
OP Anon
Pretty casual business casual is fine – khakis/chinos and a nice top are acceptable and in fact would be ideal on those days I have an impromptu site visit. I’m not opposed to having some pretty/classy/layering pieces though!
OP Anon
Re AT and BR, the neutral/pastel colors they seem to mostly have these days look terrible on me, the tops all seem boxy or sheer or low cut, and the full prices are higher than I prefer.
Gail the Goldfish
Never pay full price at AT and BR. Never. I try stuff on in the store, take a picture of the tag, and then when I get a sale email (which is all the time), buy it online. They regularly have days with 40% off–it used to be every Wednesday with BR. But yea, I agree with the sheer thing. I just want a shirt you don’t have to wear a camisole under.
lucy stone
This helps, thanks! Have you ever looked at Boden? My uniform most days at my business casual government job is a Boden dress and a blazer. The blazer is probably overkill but I’m young for my level. I like their pieces in terms of style and fit better than AT or BR, but I do still dabble at those stores. I’ve also had great luck with pants from Talbots, which come in fun colors and can always be purchased on clearance or sale for close to your price point.
lawsuited
Sales are definitely your friend. I shop at places like Marshalls, Nordstrom Rack, Saks Off Fifth and DSW for deep discounts on high-end brands, but also shop the sales at Talbots, Nordstrom and Lord and Taylor for key items that can be harder to find at discount stores. I think $20-$50 is a reasonable range for blouses, sweaters and some skirts and pants, but I would probably increase the budget to $50-$100 for suiting pants, skirts, dresses and jackets.
Sarabeth
If you have your sizing down, this is the time for eBay.
CountC
Poshmark too. Once I have a style and a size, I comb those sites!
FP
Seconding Nordstrom Rack. This is my price point and I couldn’t disagree more — this is very doable.
Also, Zulily may be your best friend. I’m happy to send you an invite, but I comb it and have had great luck slowly building a cheap but doesnt look cheep business casual wardrobe. My trick is that there are a few things I always need, like black flats or black cardigans, so when I see one I like, that’s my cue to pay the shipping fee and then comb the site for everything they have that day. Warning, they generally don’t allow returns, so I’m very very careful not to buy things that will be make or break depending on fit. But for basics and staples that wear out quickly, they’re my go-to.
ChiLaw
I shop in the $50 (and I consider it spendy!) — I buy brands that I know I like, that work for me, only from places with free shipping and free returns, and I return anything that isn’t right. A $65 dress that I will wear once a week for years is a much better deal than a $20 dress that’s slightly awkward and that I will wear every now and then out of guilt. Being ruthless about returning things that I can’t wear and look great in *right now* lets me spend more per item, because I know I really like anything I keep.
I also basically only wear dresses with sleeves, so I only have to wear one item of clothing each day. I figure that cuts the cost in half.
Do you know the website CamelCamelCamel (dot com)? You can stalk items you want on Amazon using the site — it’ll send you an email when the price is where you want it. I’ve got some cute dresses and blazers that way.
Amy H.
I used to recommend Gap’s Perfect Trouser for this all the time — $59.95 full price but you never have to pay full price — always wait for 35% off, or better, 40% off coupons. They change the cut about 1-2 years ago to universal disdain, but have yet to bring back the old well-loved one. The Modern Boot is still quite good and the same price point, so $36 plus tax on sale.
Lately, I also really like the slim crop trousers for work — I buy them longer than they’re supposed to be so that they cover the ankle. Same price I think — $59.95.
Finally, Uniqlo is awesome if it will fit you. I got a great basic black blazer there for I think $60.
Wedding Registry
I’m in the process of creating my wedding registry and am coming up short. What are your favorite things that you registered for? Or what types of things did you end up returning?
Anon
Things I registered for and LOVE –
-great knife set
-good pots & pans set
-Kitchenaid mixer (but I love to bake so it gets lots of use)
-kitchen towels
-nice bath towels, wash cloths, hand towels
Things I registered for and DON’T LOVE, but didn’t return (unfortunately) –
-fondue pot
-panini press
-food processor
My advice is to look around your kitchen currently and look at items you use regularly. Register for nicer versions of those things!
Anonymous
We don’t bake and we use our Kitchenaid all the time! Pasta sauces, soup, grinding meat, shredding cheese – we use it on at least a weekly basis.
Anonymous
I didn’t return anything (that seems icky to me, even though I know the giver will almost certainly never know). But I rarely if ever use all my fancy kitchen machines like the food processor, ice cream maker, bread machine and griddler. It’s just too much effort to haul that stuff out, set it up, use it and clean it. It’s easier to do it by hand (in the case of chopping veggies) or just not make it at home (in the case of ice cream). The stuff I love and have used all the time: fancy sheets, fancy towels, luggage, more everyday cooking stuff like nice cookie sheets and pots and pans.
Anonymous
If your food processor is big for you return it and get a mini chop. It’s small enough to live on your counter but big enough to quickly chop a serving or two of the things you’re chopping by hand.
lucy stone
Favorites that we registered for and actually use: nice down comforter, stemless wine glasses, upgraded toaster and blender, KitchenAid mixer, Waterford candlesticks. I didn’t want to register for a lot of crystal and glass, but made sure the stuff I picked was stuff that fit our style and now I love displaying it.
anon
We returned and rebought pots and pans. We registered for singles since the set we wanted was really expensive and bought the items as a set after the wedding.
Anonymous
Favorite:
-fancy china and sterling silver flatware. It’s not that I use these that often, but they make me soooo happy when I do. I got married 11 years ago before a surge in silver prices, so our silver wasn’t much more than nice stainless.
-good knives
-nice sleeping bags/light weight inflatable sleeping pads
-I also like our kitchen aid mixer, which we didn’t actually register for.
Kept but could have done without:
-ice cream maker. I knew at the time that it was a silly item, but it was exactly the right price for what most of my friends would be spending on a gift
-sheets/towels. These are long gone – I’d prefer to have had something more lasting (though see my next item…).
-every day glasses. We registered for 12 highballs and 12 old fashioneds because I wanted to have something lower priced on the registry. It backfired because one person bought all 24. I can’t tell you how bored I am with these glasses, and my husband doesn’t even like drinking from them. No one needs a set of 12.
KinCA
Favorite registry items:
12-cup food processor (making my own pesto was a revelation)
Garlic press
Nicer pots and pans
A large fancy-ish vase (major upgrade from using the ones that come with flower deliveries)
Various sizes of wall and picture frames (perfect for framing wedding and honeymoon photos)
An upgraded 4-slice toaster
Various serving/entertaining dishes (serving platters, large bowls, cake and serving stands, etc. – entertaining is so much more fun now)
anon
Luggage, pots and pans, flatware. Regret registering for things like towels that immediately got stained by houseguests and which we can afford to buy ourselves in any case. Best thing was a family heirloom set of silverware, though.
Vi
I love most of what we got – nice flatware, great pots and pans, nice everyday dishes, nice everyday serving dishes, great knives (registered individually, not a set), sheets, towels (which we had registered for double for when things ran out), glass mixing bowls, cups etc. Random extras don’t get used as often — cookbook holder, herb saver, etc.
FP
You can never have enough simple cotton blankets (i.e., Ralph Lauren) or extra sets of sheets.
My best tip was having magazine subscriptions available on our registry because we had a lot of student friends for whom the real gift was their plane ticket. We had a year of Bon Appetit, The Sun, etc, and really enjoyed them.
Amy H.
My favorite things from our registry are those we use every day — really good knives, ceramic casual dishes, and Riedel wine glasses. ? DH and I already had good pots and pans b/c when we met we already each had the same line….
Anonymous
Is it easier to make friends when you’re a mom? I followed my husband across the country for his career a couple of years ago and have exactly zero friends – zero female acquaintances even – in our new area. We both work in male-dominated careers (I actually work with no other women, except secretaries I can’t really have a social friendship with) and between long hours at my day job and a time-consuming (individual) hobby, I haven’t had time to put any effort into meeting people and it hasn’t happened naturally. We want to have a baby relatively soon and I’m secretly hoping that once I have a kid, friendships, at the very least casual ones, with other women will happen more organically. Am I crazy for thinking this? (Definitely not having a baby to meet friends — I just hope that will be a positive side effect!)
WestCoast Lawyer
Nope, not crazy. If you stay at home you can start going to mommy and me activities, and if you continue to work you will likely meet a lot of similarly minded women through your daycare if you go that route (especially when they start getting to the age where they have birthday parties, but are still too young to be dropped off, so the parents all end up standing around talking for a couple hours).
mascot
I’ve met a lot of people through my child. Not so much in the first couple of years, but it really ramped up once he started proper school between birthday parties and sports/activities. Some of these are just people I talk to when we are standing around at parties and others are people we make actual plans with for dinner, play dates, etc.
Anonymous
I find it easier to make acquaintances but harder to make friends now that I am a mom. I meet more people now through school, Girl Scouts, sports teams, etc., but I don’t have time to become real friends with any of them, especially since I work and virtually none of them do. I chat with the other moms when we happen to run into each other, and once in a blue moon someone will throw a barbecue, but I’m not texting or e-mailing or hanging out with these women on a regular basis independent of kid activities. We have made friends with one other professional family, but both families are so busy that it’s difficult to find time to get together. Mommy and me was not an option because of my work schedule.
Betty
Yup. Lots of acquaintances but tough to get close because friendship requires repeated exposure and an increasing level of intimacy. I found it easier when my kids were actual babies. I could go to regular BFing groups and actually talk with other moms while on maternity leave. Once the kids are mobile, random conversations at playgrounds/church/after school tend to be punctuated with toddler whining/random ends to sentences as you leave to chase a child/etc., and it is hard to find time for regular playdates when you work 9-5, after work is dinner and bedtime and you need weekends to get stuff done to get ready for the week.
Anon
I’m the opposite. Most of my closest girlfriends I met through work. I’m a mom of two teens and most of my closest girlfriends are childless. I have never really hit it off with other moms because of the working mom/SAHM divide. My husband was a SAHD for a few years and I was and still am the breadwinner, so I never had those afternoon in the park with a stroller days where mom’s bond with each other. Also, I’m generally much more interested in talking about work and world events than I am child rearing and school issues.
Anon
*moms. Thanks but no thanks, autocorrect.
anon
I have met a whole group of new friends in the year since we had a baby. It was much easier than making friends when we first moved to town. Now, I don’t know how many of these friends will become really close, long-term friends, but it is seriously easy. Join a prenatal yoga class or new-mom’s group or both, stick with it even if people seem cliquey at first, and then arrange more get togethers or invite people over. Or do what I do and stop people on the street who have babies the same size as yours. Seriously. If they’re neighbors, invite them over.
anon from 2:27
Also — all of these other moms also work. Maybe that’s a function of the area (DC) but I haven’t found the divide other commenters above mention.
Anonymama
Yes, having a baby is kind of like having a puppy in that random people on the street will stop to chat with you, and if you see anyone else with a baby around the same age you will be compelled to chat with them and admire each other’s babies. And other women with their first will also be trying to make friends with someone who has a baby around the same age, and especially during maternity leave may be desperate for a nearby friend to get out of the house with, plus there are usually all kinds of moms groups around.
Azalyas
Absolutely. I made it my business in the second half of my maternity leave to get out there and make mom-friends in my community. I was super obvious about trolling for mom friends, and lo and behold, many of the moms were in the same boat. Having friends with babies the same age (as close as possible) is invaluable. I made some SAHM friends and some working mom friends this way. We keep in touch through regular emails and group texts, and hang out with the babies on weekends, often spontaneously.
What helped move these from friendly acquaintances to friends is that I actually reached out to them to hang out, get coffee, or just chat, on a regular basis. After we hung out sufficiently I would text them with baby or neighborhood related questions or funny stories or whines. “Up since 5. Going on a coffee run. You guys around?” “Day 2 of no naps except on mommy. Going insane. You?” Over time, many of these women became friends-friends. It’s like dating though – not every single person you meet will become a friend, and that’s fine.
CPA Lady
Can you join your local Jr. League? I made a ton of friends that way. Moms, non-moms, married, single, everything. It’s been really fun, I’ve done some good community service, and gone to a lot of fun parties too.
Annie Q
I always liked kids but never wanted any. I’ve loved my ability to have a demanding career and to travel with my husband, but that’s not why I didn’t have them. I just don’t have the DNA for motherhood. People always told me that I would regret it one day, but it never made sense to do something now I did not want to do, just to avoid possible regrets about not having done it later. I’m 54 now and have no regrets about not having had kids.