Tuesday’s Workwear Report: Touch Roses Tie-Neck Top

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1. Ranting into the void (I am leaving this job, don’t worry). My boss considers herself the ‘lead’ on a lot of my projects and has intentionally removed me from email chains. Boss is a people manager, not a subject matter expert. Clients have noticed this and I’ve had more than one awkward conversation where I’ve had to cover for my boss when client emails get lost in her inbox and I have to turn around projects in hours because ‘unfortunately it seems I was accidentally left off the email chain’.

   1. I always wonder why people in your position cover for the boss.

      1. generally speaking, because making your boss look good is a valuable skill for advancement at any level!

         1. +1 making your boss look bad to clients just makes the entire organization look bad.

      2. Are you supposed to throw them under the bus?

         I’ll admit that I’m naive but I certainly haven’t mastered the art of, as Churchill said, “telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.”

      3. My boss is a raging narcissist, but that’s an issue to be dealt with internally (I don’t cover for her to our grand boss for example). Airing our organizations dirty laundry to clients doesn’t help anything.

      4. Do you actually think the boss is going to take responsibility when things go sideways?

         1. +1 – your boss is going to turn right around and shovel the sh it back on to you.

            1. +2 Yup, exactly

      5. Looks like no one else agrees, but I definitely think there’s a time and place for making your boss look bad. This is all from health care, and I know organizations have very different purposes and missions. But when something went wrong in patient care because of my boss’ ego, I had no problem throwing them under the bus in order to do what was necessary for the outcome. Advancement was never my goal, because I didn’t want to become a manager (and start facing incentives to act the same way). And we’re near impossible to replace, so job security is not a concern.

         1. I think it’s much different in a setting where a person’s health, safety, or life is at stake. The posters above are talking about a boss who didn’t send a spreadsheet or something, not a case where someone is going to die if they don’t get the right meds.

   2. I mean, if your boss considers herself the lead on a project and wants to manage client comms directly, and make the call herself about when to loop you in as an SME… then your boss /is/ the lead.

      If you’re getting last minute requests for large amounts of work, you can talk to her about how to prioritize those (“to finish A by tomorrow, I need to delay B or C until Friday”) but that’s a conversation with your boss, and never in front of the client!

      1. No my boss is not the lead on anything, she has no relationship with the clients, had no idea what projects are going on or any of the technical elements. Clients come to me directly when they realize their deliverables aren’t being met and emails go to die in my boss’s inbox. My boss brings no value.

         1. “Unfortunately boss didn’t assign me to work on this project, so you should follow up with boss directly. Sorry I can’t be more help.”

   3. Oof. Congratulations on getting the heck out of there, and hoping you have a better boss at your next workplace.

   4. Chelsea has expanded in the recent decade to encompass the Hell’s Kitchen/Tunnel/Penn Station area (and some of those areas are not the greatest at night). I’d feel way safer staying somewhere else along the 1/9 or the ACE lines.

      This is an article to start, but I’d also search NYMag boutique hotels, TimeOut boutique/budget hotels.
      And if I just need a crash pad, I’ve stayed at YoTels too. You don’t have a private bath, but they are cute little dorm-like rooms.

      https://www.travelandleisure.com/hotels-resorts/affordable-hotels-new-york-city

2. Visiting my daughter in NYC in October – she lives in Chelsea, where a) there doesn’t seem to be a ton of hotels and b) ouch the prices. Anyone know of any hidden gems? The closest to her place is the Gansevoort Meatpacking hotel, which is coming in at about $600 per night and looks kind of dark. Looking for quiet and really clean. Won’t be eating or spending much time there.

   Any personal experience with the Gansevoort? Or the Highline Hotel?

   1. i would stay in midtown. you could walk if you want to or it’s a very short bus or cab or train trip and there are, what are generally considered, more moderate options (like court yards by marriot etc)

   2. I liked the Hotel giraffe for a girls weekend last year – the ‘suite’ (not big but a separate bedroom with a sitting room that had a fold out couch) was great for a group of 3 of us and the bathroom was larger than I expected. If you have a travel card (chase sapphire, AmEx fine hotels and resorts, etc.) I’ve found rates when you book through their travel portal that are much cheaper than what you can find elsewhere.

   3. Figure out the closest subway stop and look at hotels near the next stop along that line.

   4. When my parents used to visit me in Chelsea, they liked the Highline. It’s a converted building so the rooms can be quirky but it’s a lovely space. Not sure about value for money these days, however (at the time, it was reasonable). If you look more centrally in the high 20s/low 30s (like 6th and 7th ave), you may find more affordable hotels.

   5. You may want to look at the Hilton Garden Inn on 28th Street. Nothing fancy but generally well reviewed and reasonably priced. There is a local subway stop nearby too. We’ve stayed in other Garden Inn’s in Manhattan and had good experiences.

   6. Get one bed and sleep with her. It will make it much cheaper. And ditto on mid-town hotels.

      1. Reading comp fail?

         1. Nope. I read it just fine. If you are visiting your daughter in NYC, you both get a hotel. Unless you want to spend all your time on the train, not seeing her.

   7. Highline Hotel is so cute. I used to live near there and visited the coffee shop frequently. Great location in Chelsea.

      You could look at hotels near Penn Station which might be cheaper/targeted towards travelers passing through and are still conveniently located to Chelsea.

      1. The Penn Station area isn’t the loveliest but it’s a short walk to anyplace in Chelsea. The New Yorker Hotel was mentioned in comments here a few days ago.

3. My fiance and I can’t decide whether to hire a DJ or create a curated playlist for our wedding reception. We’ll have about 50 guests; the reception is in the evening and will be indoors.

   We aren’t big dancers ourselves, so having a hopping dance floor isn’t a personal priority for us. However, we do want our guests to enjoy themselves, and it seems like many people expect to have the opportunity to dance at weddings. With that in mind, it feels like we should offer danceable music, either via a DJ or a playlist that we would put together.

   A DJ would be less work for us and less risk of something going wrong with the speakers or playlist. On the other hand, we wonder if a DJ would come across as over the top for 50 guests, especially when we’re not sure how much people will want to dance. I keep seeing advice to “know your crowd” with this type of decision, but I’m just not sure!

   I’d appreciate any advice, especially from the guest perspective!

   1. if you can afford it go with a DJ. they feed off the crowd (party songs, slow songs, fan favorites, background music). if you don’t want them to MC the evening they don’t have to but it adds structure.

      obviously i know nothing about you or your wedding but assuming main stream cultural expectations i can’t see how any “crowd” would be surprised or put off by a DJ at a wedding.

   2. I had a small wedding too (80 people) and we were really happy we hired a DJ. It wasn’t a big expense relative to other wedding things (I want to say $500-ish, although we got married over 10 years ago) and we had a lot of fun on the dance floor and didn’t have to worry about music at all. I don’t think a live band is worth it unless you *really* care about the music.

   3. My neighbor hires DJs for his parties (at a bungalow, in suburbia). They are the awesomest yard parties so I say go for it.

   4. We had less than 50 guests and had a DJ. We told them what genres we preferred and left the rest up to them. It was great.

   5. I just had my wedding with 50 people in a restaurant, private room, and we made a playlist and brought our own speaker. The restaurant offered their overhead/elevator music and there was no way that was going to fly. There was no dance floor so a DJ wasn’t necessary. It worked out great. We had 7 hours of music ready for a 4.5 hour event. Both the speaker and ipad we streamed to it were fully charged and never went dead but I did have chargers just in case.

   6. DJ!!! I almost went with a playlist and I’m SO glad I didn’t. It’s too much work for you to be setting up a speaker and managing a playlist at your own wedding. I’ve been to a twenty-person wedding with a DJ and a fourth of july party with less than twenty people with a DJ and neither felt over the top. On the contrary it felt festive to have a DJ there. And for context I am not a fancy person, and these were both backyard events.

   7. A DJ. Zero people will dance to your playlist. A DJ is inexpensive and fun.

      1. My cousin got married when she and her husband were in grad school. I was really impressed with how nice and how fun their wedding was for being a “budget” wedding but one thing they did was skip a DJ / band and have a playlist. Their venue had a dance floor, they like to dance and it was a really fun dancey vibe even without a DJ. You just have to make sure the right music is on the playlist and you have good speakers.

         That being said, IME if the couple isn’t dancing then most people also don’t dance at weddings (which is fine!)

      2. I still have relatives asking me for our wedding playlist and our five-year anniversary is coming up, but go off, I guess.

         1. Now WE want it!

            1. Ha, my sister made it under her Spotify account with her name on it or I’d gladly share!

      3. People danced to my playlist.

         1. +1 – we could not afford a DJ and DIY’d it and the dance floor was hopping. You do you but I wouldn’t spend money on this if it isn’t important to you.

   8. DJ. Even if the DJ plays the exact same music as your playlist, it establishes the vibe of getting people to the dance floor 1000% better.

   9. Adding to the chorus. Another reason to get a DJ is that they will blend songs so that a new song begins before the other one ends, and there are no lulls. You may think that you can do this with playlist apps but it’s best to leave it to the professionals. Plus you don’t want to have to manage a playlist all night, you want to enjoy your wedding. I was skeptical too but a good DJ was some of the best money we spent on our wedding.

   10. I’ll be the voice of dissent and say that if you don’t care about dancing, you don’t need a DJ. I go to weddings to see people I haven’t seen in a long time and it always makes me sad when the music starts and it’s always too loud to continue a conversation. Weddings with DJs often start the music during dinner, so you barely get any chance to talk.

       1. OMG, the loud music, right?? I don’t understand DJs at weddings who blast the music so loud you can’t talk to people. Especially during dinner and if there’s really no other place to go.

          Can someone who knows more about music explain this? Do most DJs have hearing loss? I also love it (not) when the music is so loud there’s a big empty space in front of the speakers because it’s painful to be in front of them. And if DJs see that a lot of people at a wedding are leaving the room, do they not get a clue that maybe the music is too loud? And do they refuse to turn the music down even if people ask?

          Man, most of my memories of weddings involve being miserable in a very cold and very loud room. I agree with Anon above – it’s really sad when you’re looking forward to some nice dinner conversation and all you can do is nod blankly at people because no one can hear a word anyone says.

          1. Wow! Your comment is a PSA to every bride and groom to make sure the DJ plays quieter dinner appropriate music earlier in the evening. We had 35 people at a restaurant in a room to the side and danced to the house band. It was perfect!

          2. omg I totally agree. Half the guests at the wedding I recently attended fled the ballroom the minute the music changed from “dinner background” (which was already too loud) to “pump it up to get everyone on the dance floor” — thank heavens there was a small outdoor terrace with a bar so we could actually talk.

   11. We had a 60-guest wedding and opted to appoint my husband’s brother as the keeper of the playlist and performer of light MC duties (announcing when we were going to cut the cake, etc.). We had two playlists, one of dinner music and one for dancing afterwards. The dancing one devolved into some wilder requests from the cousins, but by that time I didn’t care and was happy folks were having a good time. I am happy I didn’t spend money on a DJ. Our venue had a good sound system already though — you might think differently if you’ll have to provide your own sound equipment.

       1. How fun for him. I hope you paid him.

          1. Sometimes family members volunteer to do things at weddings because A. they enjoy it and B. they like doing things for other people. I volunteered as a “site coordinator” at a friend’s wedding – made sure the food and the bartenders/bar and the cake, etc. made it to the site and everything was ready for the reception – because I had experience doing that via past professional event-planning work, and because I wanted his day to go well for him and for everyone to have a good time. Not everyone lives their lives in a this-for-that exchange economy with their friends and family members.

   12. I don’t think it will come across as over the top because DJs are expected at events like weddings, and they don’t have to try to prompt your guests to dance if the guests don’t want to. My reason for leaning in favor of the DJ is because it takes something completely off your plate– you don’t have to stress about the playlist or your equipment. If you can afford it, this seems like a great place to outsource that work.

   13. If you’re hiring out anyway, I would see about hiring a cover band.

       1. A DJ is a fraction of the cost of a cover band

          1. Yeah a cover band starts around 10k, a good DJ is $500.

             1. Haha I wish. More like in the hundreds.

                Signed, wife of a cover band musician

             2. I said above that I thought our DJ was $500-ish (albeit 10 years ago) and bands seemed like they were starting at 5k. It’s definitely a LOT more.

       2. When we got married, we lived in a place where the cost of a nice-ish DJ and the cost of a live band was fairly comparable. That said, our live band was a professional musician friend + some friends he found to round out a basic pop band. It was really nice.

   14. My 40 person wedding was this summer. We had a private room in a restaurant with a small space for dancing. Very few people danced. We had a crowdsourced playlist and brought our own speaker with a mic. I’m glad we didn’t have a DJ because that wasn’t really the vibe. It was small, intimate, and more eating, drinking, and mingling. My husband hates dancing, and we didn’t have parents who wanted to do the traditional first dances with us. We are also older (late 30s), and several guests brought their kids, so it was primarily a handful of kids enjoying themselves dancing, which gave their parents an opportunity to socialize. Our venue also offered muzak over their in house speakers, which we didn’t want.

       1. One more thing – we also let a friend be in charge of the playlist and serving as DJ to announce our arrival, cake cutting, etc. It was very low key and fun. The venue set up the speaker along with the decorations.

4. Can anyone share advice for how to get a paid board position? Targeting smaller private companies as opposed to a
   public board seat. Are there organizations/networks that are actually worthwhile to join?

   1. My tongue in cheek, but completely serious answer: be a legacy board member, be a friend of someone on the board (preferably the chair), play golf with board members, etc. I represent boards for a few multi-billion dollar entities, and from what I see, it is largely about who you know rather than what you know.

      1. I’d add, be a CEO or COO of a large company.

         1. +1

            My Uncle was a CEO of a tech company for decades. When he “retired”, he was flooded with board positions where he gets paid extraordinarily well for very tiny time commitments.

            But obviously his experience is vast, and his knowledge base is deep, so…

      2. It’s also what you do for work. It is very easy to get these roles if you’re a retired regulator/consultant/auditor (ex-AICPA/ex-FDIC/ex-Big 4/ex-MBB) – they aren’t allowed to hold these roles while they’re working but they can be hugely valuable board members after retirement.

   2. In the Valley, you have to already have strong ties in the entrepreneurial network and have relevant business success. Asking what you just asked suggests you don’t.

   3. Boards are all nepotism

   4. Why? Do you just want a no-work source of income?

      1. Shoot, don’t we all?

   5. I’m an ecvc lawyer so am speaking to venture backed private companies only. Board members are not paid in cash ever. An independent director with industry expertise may be paid in equity. You’d have better luck being an advisor on some informal board of advisor. Those folks usually get 0.25% of the company’s equity in exchange for intros and things like that. You need to be pretty connected for these types of roles.

   6. I’ve been on a couple of non-profit boards, unpaid. Several friends have suggested I look into paid board positions as part of a semi-retirement plan. In my experience with this, people love to talk about it but no one has concrete suggestions as to how to go about it. There are board recruiters out there but it’s really all about networking, as others have said, and I mean DEEP old boys networks.

      I don’t think I want to deal with the liability anyway. And they’re not no-work positions. I used to put together a fraction of the quarterly board book at a F50 company. My section was technical/financial. It required a great deal of industry knowledge to be able to understand, and would have taken days if not weeks just to fully review my section (indeed, it took my staff the better part of 2 months to analyze and assemble.) The board member are essentially signing off that they fully understand all the board materials any time they hold a vote. I don’t call that a no-work position at all.

   7. You can try for the Boardlist. In San Diego, the Athena Alliance (they do good webinars). In Boston, the Boston Club (you have to pay a fee, but you get connected to great nonprofits).

      Also a corporate lawyer (in Silicon Valley). You really need to have been a hitter executive (C-Suite, minimum) or founder or an eminence gris to get on a Board, whether public or private. As mentioned above, cash comp is very rare unless the company is public. You will, however, be paid in equity for both private and public companies.

   8. Hope not too late for you to see this.

      There are coaches who specialize in C-suite and BOD coaching. This woman is a friend of a friend, don’t personally know her. But she coaches people to help them find paid board positions. She also focuses on women’s empowerment. Tissa Richards

      I have someone else, also a friend of a friend, but I’m not finding her name right now. Will post later when I find it.

      1. Second person is Cate Goethals. She’s director of the University of Washington’s Foster School of Business’s Women Board Member Development program. She’s also an ICF-certified coach. Another friend of friend. If she can’t help, I’m sure she can recommend someone else.

5. To the ‘Rette who enjoys David Grann: He’s appearing at the Library of Congress’s National Book Festival on Aug. 12. His interview, Shipwreck, Mutiny and Murder: An Hour with David Grann, will be livestreamed.

   This year the LOC has awarded George Saunders their Prize for American Fiction, and his discussion will be livestreamed also.

6. Question for the board. I am not a parent, but one of my direct reports is going out on maternity leave the end of the month (3rd child if that matters). We are both remote workers, on opposite sides of the country so our relationship is entirely via phone/video calls. The company will provide paid leave and a personalized baby gift, but as her manager would like to do something for her individually or from our team (I would foot the cost).

   She has family coming in to stay with her after the baby is born, and she has told me the best part of this is she won’t have to look at her kitchen for 2 months, so my normal friend gift of food delivery gift certificates feels odd here. She does not have a registry. What would be a thoughtful gift in this situation?

   1. I think the gift certificates still make sense, but maybe you can include a card with a note along the lines of ‘hope these help after your family leaves!’ or ‘so you don’t have to think about food during the sleep regressions!’.

      1. This is what I’d do!

   2. Send food delivery anyway, they won’t expire in two months and her family might want a break.

   3. Gift certificate so she can buy stuff in larger sizes. I appreciated the people who gifted me 6-9 mo clothing, super helpful to have some pieces for the growth spurts.

   4. When I had my second, a client I worked a lot with gave me a (large) Amazon gift card after my daughter was born. Not the most glamorous, but I very much appreciated it, and it definitely got used. I preferred that to food delivery.

      1. This is one of the few circumstances where I think an Amazon or Target gift card is the best call. It’s very similar to cash and they can get whatever they’re needing in the moment. It sounds like they already have a plan for food, but they’ll always need diapers and whatnot.

         1. +1. We had people who wanted to bring us meals and I had to tell them we still had relatives in the house cooking for us, could they wait a week, and then they ghosted us, but we had other folks give us Target/Walmart gift cards and we didn’t pay for diapers ourselves until DS was 2 months old. It was awesome.

      2. +2 to Amazon or Target gift card.

   5. When I went out on leave, a client sent a bouquet of decorated, personalized cookies that was one of my favorite gifts. Also great when she’s got a crowd at home even if she’s not responsible for meal prep.

7. I grew up atheist and as I have gotten older have wanted to start exploring religion/spirituality. I don’t know where to even start. Any books anyone would recommend?

   1. CS Lewis

      1. This!

      2. Different anon expanding on this – I’d start with Mere Christianity, which is Lewis’s classic book and very approachable. You might also be interested in his autobiography, Surprised By Joy. And The Great Divorce is a quick read with (I think) some deep insights.

         1. +1

   2. What about looking into moral philosophy such as the works of Peter Singer?

      1. I can think of some reasons to avoid the moral philosophy of Peter Singer (yikes)

         1. Yeah it’s really such a shame he advocates for reducing suffering of humans and animals alike.

            1. I’d rather be alive and suffering, thanks!

         2. I think Peter Singer is worth reading, especially on animal rights, but definitely be aware of his views on disabled people (though my understanding is that he’s moderated some over time). Still, probably not what OP is looking for.

         3. If OP is looking for an overview of philosophy (as opposed to religion or spirituality) she needs to read Singer along with many other prominent philosophers, and to examine each one’s writings critically.

            1. Philosophy is not exactly in its heyday, and I find it more valuable to read thinkers whose perspectives aren’t shaped by the same forces influencing my own thought just by societal osmosis.

               Peter Singer believes that not all humans have personhood and some can be ethically euthanized against their will. I don’t really need a philosopher to distill this thinking for me.

            2. Singer believes in sentience, either you have never taken a philosophy class or you are intentionally misrepresentating him due to your own biases.

            3. Deciding which people count as sentience is really not my jam. The last philosophy colloquium I attended was one where a different prominent living philosopher admitted in the Q&A how few people really qualified as people in his view, and there were people nodding their heads.

   3. I grew up religious and turned atheist/agnostic (although didn’t really make those labels part of my identity – I preferred humanist in college), and then as I’ve gotten older been more open to spirituality outside of traditional religion. Basically if I notice that I have a curiosity spark in a direction, I follow that and read more about it. I don’t put a lot of pressure on myself, just notice what feels right vs. what feels ick/heavy, and try and avoid the ick/heavy. For me, the moment anything turns hierarchical or dogmatic or rule heavy, I’m gone.

      A few specific recommendations that I like – very alternative to traditional religion:
      Many Lives, Many Masters by Brian Weiss
      It’s Easier Than You Think: The Buddhist Way to Happiness by Sylvia Boorstein
      Seat of the Soul by Gary Zukav
      The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle
      A Return to Love by Marianne Williamson (LOL I know, but I read it before she ran for President)

      1. I can’t believe you are apologizing for recommending Marianne Williamson.

         1. It may be a good book, and no shade to this poster, but I understand why she gave the caveat about Marianne Williamson! She has some harmful views that bleed out of the spiritual realm.

            1. No, she doesn’t. You would know that if you read her stuff.

            2. Are you a staffer or something? I have seen her speak in person, and she made some comments about vaccine skepticism when I was present in the room. She also has made several statements about mental health and antidepressants that are harmful (casting doubt on antidepressants when so many need them literally to survive).

            3. Antidepressants work really, really well for a percentage of people who take them (often around 15% in studies) and absolutely save lives. Acknowledging that they can also do harm doesn’t take away from that.

   4. Thomas Merton’s The Seven Storey Mountain?

      1. +1

   5. I have found Todd May’s books terrific as I’ve navigated similar thoughts: I liked Death, A Significant Life, and A Decent Life, although there is a lot of overlap between them. I didn’t love the tones of “white guy appropriates Buddhism” but There Is No God And He Is Always With You by Brad Warner also really resonated with me.

   6. Unclear why everyone here is assuming Christianity.

      I would start by reading Stephen Prothero’s “Religious Literacy” to get a basic understanding of the world’s five main religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism). From there, you can branch out as you see fit.

      1. +1
         Yes, I was confused by that too. Christianity is not the default religion, but one of many options for the OP to consider

      2. It’s not “assuming Christianity” for a commenter to suggest a book with a Christian perspective because that happens to be the literature she knows. Also, a survey of world religions is not likely to be “spiritual.” Most spiritual books will be written from a single perspective. One would hope that several commenters would share their favorites from their own varied faith traditions. “Christian” is not synonymous with “invalid.”

      3. So you want the two Christian suggestions out of several cancelled?

      4. The OP asked what religious/spiritual books we’d recommend. Apparently our recommendations as a group skew Christian, but I don’t think that counts as assuming.

         1. Don’t you know that reasonable mainstream Christians are now required to hide their beliefs and perspectives? The right only accepts crazy evangelical views that do not align with actual Christian beliefs, and the left equates Christianity with evangelicalism and oppression.

            /sarcasm

      5. I just looked up this book and noticed the reviews criticize it for being Christian-centric and US-centric, but at least it covers other religions!

         Modern atheism and modern protestant Christianity are historical outliers with a lot in common, so focusing on Christianity might inadvertently reinforce assumptions that don’t actually apply to other religions. Whether it’s more helpful to start with something familiar or very foreign is probably a matter of preference, but I would probably want to start with something more foreign.

      6. ? I offered 5 book suggestions, none of which are Christian maybe with the exception of A Return to Love, which tangentially uses Christian concepts but very much is not a “Christian” book.

   7. I don’t have any recommendations that aren’t specific to the faith I choose to follow, but if you’re coming from a place of being an atheist rather than returning to a specific religion, I’d recommend books/resources that focus on spirituality overall or that include introductions to multiple faiths so that you are able to identify what does and doesn’t work for you. For example, you might have beliefs or assumptions about the Divine you might not even realize until you are able to see how different faiths relate to that concept (ex: there are some stark differences in how western/Judeo-Christian faiths teach about God vs. how Buddhism approaches the concept). I would also encourage you to think about how you feel about any differences you find in what your understanding of a religion is vs. how it is practiced by faith communities accessible to you and how much that matters to you as you explore this. For example, if you believe in LGBTQ rights or don’t believe in rigid gender roles, but congregations near you believe the opposite, would joining such a congregation serve your spirituality or hinder it? I don’t have any of these answers for you, but I wish you the best and I hope you find a sense of peace however this journey goes.

   8. A History of God by Karen Armstrong. Fellow atheist here and I think it provides a wonderful, if academic, understanding the history of monotheistic religions.

      1. I loved this book and was about to recommend it. Anything by Karen Armstrong is great.

      2. +1

         Great book as someone who is not overtly religious.

   9. Check out your local Unitarian Universalist congregation

      1. +1

         Many atheists go to our Unitarian churches. I grew up Unitarian (parents catholic/lutheran) and we all went atheist as my Mom finished divinity school and my Dad became a seasoned scientist. They were atheists too.

         You could also look for secular humanists societies/organizations/meet-up groups in your area. I used to attend an amazing group that would meet for a “church” equivalent….. an hour of music (usually wonderful live classical performances) and individual brief readings of poetry/short prose/storytelling. People from the community would come up to do the readings, and anyone could. Then we would have a very brief mindfulness mediation. Then food and mingling after. No religion at all.

         If it wasn’t for all the downsides to organized religion, some of the community/support/?purpose benefits of religion are actually a good thing that many people have a hard time replacing. I am realizing this as I get older.

         But for self-introspection, yoga/mindfulness has been more helpful to me then I ever could have imagined, and exploring Buddhism is something I am become more interested in.

      2. I went to a UU church as a kid, and it did a pretty good job of teaching about all world religions, not just Christianity. It’s the church where lots of interfaith couples decide to go, and they’re very accepting of different religious (or not) backgrounds.

      3. +1

   10. You could also seek out community college or online religious study or philosophy courses. I really enjoyed an intro to religious philosophy course as an undergrad, and enjoyed the spiritual challenge that came with it! I still reference the reader we used.

       1. YMMV, but I found the philosophy of religion class I had to take (only course that fit my schedule) to be the worst experience of my life. You would fail if you did not praise the diety, critical though and examining logical fallacies was discouraged.

          1. Definitely a YMMV situation, because that was not my experience at all in my public liberal arts university.

       2. +1 love the philosophy courses I took in college. I also took an Intro to Religion class (from the Religious Studios dept), that was very overview of the world religions, that was helpful to know, although not a class where we personally explored what spirituality meant to us. Whereas in philosophy classes, many discussions and papers allowed space to dig into it on a more personal level.

          If I won the lottery, I’d spend a few years getting a philosophy degree, just because I really enjoyed those discussions.

   11. Not a book but i love the “on being” podcast/radio show. It’s billed as an “intelligent public conversation about the religious, spiritual, and moral aspects of human life.” The host is incredibly thoughtful and has a wide range of interesting guests.

       1. What a great rec, thank you!

   12. St. Augustine’s Confessions

   13. Siddhartha, by Herman Hesse

   14. Thich Nhat Hanh – “Thich Nhat Hanh (1926–2022) was​ a Vietnamese Buddhist Zen Master, poet, and peace activist and one of the most revered and influential spiritual teachers in the world​. Born in 1926, he became a Zen Buddhist monk at the age of sixteen. His work for peace and reconciliation during the war in Vietnam moved Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. to nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1967.”
       https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B000AP5YRY/about

       For myself, also grew up atheist, Thich Nhat Hanh’s work has been the most accessible.

       1. Great rec.

   15. As someone also lucky enough to be born into an amazing nonreligious family, and truly I thank my parents often for it, I cannot imagine looking at the world as an adult and saying “i know what we need more of! religion!”

       Absolutely wild.

8. Philadelphia/Trenton Q. I’m looking for a safe spot along I-95 to meet friends to give back their kids after they’ve spent a week with me at my place in the country. I’m coming from CT, the parents are coming from DC. Any suggestions? Thank you!

   1. Are you asking for like, a safe rest area, or for somewhere you all can hang out for a bit before driving your separate ways? The official I95 rest stops are usually in pretty good shape. I think the one just south of Wilmington is in the middle of the highway so you can get there from both directions, although that puts a bit more of the burden on you.

      1. Oh, total alternative, but Amtrak from coastal CT to DC is super easy — you could consider escorting them to Philly or Wilmington on the train and swapping seats with the parents?

         1. The train was the original plan! But we adults didn’t get our act together early enough to get the $25 fares and tickets are $150+ inside a 21 day window.

      2. Sorry, just a safe parking lot of some flavor – I drive 95 often, but am drawing a complete blank as to what’s around Philly.

         And I’m actually coming from NE CT (3 hours from NYC), so I’d rather not go further south than Philly since that’s already more than halfway for me.

         1. The Penns Landing area is right off 95 in Philly. Lots of things to do there that are fun and family friendly, plus the Moshulu if you want a nice place to grab a bite.

            1. Was just about to suggest that – the Spruce Street Harbor Park is great for kids and adults.

            2. Thank you!

9. I need serious help with work shoes and tops. Long story short, a few people on my team were not dressing appropriately, and now my team has gone nuclear and changed the dress code. I have confirmed with two levels of bosses that I was not part of the problem, but for whatever reason, instead of addressing dress code issues with the offenders my team has now decided that we cannot wear open-toe or open-heel shoes (or really anything that exposes the foot) or sleeveless blouses. FWIW, we all have desk jobs in a company that only has desk jobs. There are no safety, operational, or work-related reasons for this dress code. I also sit alone at my desk 90% of the time; if I ever meet with extermals its on the phone / no camera zoom. I don’t do presentations. I don’t interact with other people.

   Our dress code is the nicer end of business casual; previously I wore shift dresses or pants and a blouse with block heeled sandals or mules. We cannot wear jeans (even on Fridays), fashionable sneakers, or things along those lines. I do commute in sneakers or birkenstocks, but obviously take them off as soon as I get to my desk.

   I have a few dilemmas.
   – Shoes: Currently, I only have one pair of shoes that is in this new dress code and is weather appropriate. So, I’ve been wearing these black loafers every day. I generally find flats too unsupportive and uncomfortable, and I don’t care for the look of flats, oxfords, or brogues. I”m a short pear, so I think oxfords / brogues look unflattering on me (though I love them for other people. Flats I just dislike across the board). In the winter I’ll be fine, as I have a few pairs of boots that I wear. The loafers don’t go with everything I have (which, unfortunately in this situation, I do care about) and it can be uncomfortable for me to wear the same shoes every day (we have to go in 4x a week).
   – Tops: Many of the blouses and work dresses I have are sleeveless but with thick straps, but now shirts/dresses need sleeves. I have 3 blouses and 2 dresses that I can wear; everything else is now against the dress code (which is sadly a huge waste! I will donate some and keep some for when I switch jobs). Once again, I’ll be fine in the winter as I tend to wear sweaters. I’ve done some window shopping and I have found a few options, but really most work-appropriate options I’ve seen are sleeveless. I could probably get away with wearing something sleeveless with a blazer, but the HVAC is so hot and cold in my office, I’d hate to be overheating and unable to take off a layer because of the new dress code. It’s also hot and humid where I live, so commuting in sleeves means I get sweaty.

   I am 30 and interested in fashion so I try to wear things that are current, cute, age-appropriate, and work-appropriate. Ironically, my last job was in a much more formal environment, and yet my wardrobe was perfectly appropriate for that setting.

   I am also on a pretty substantial budget, so I need to find some options that are affordable. I’m really irritated that I have to spend money to ensure my wardrobe is in compliance, even though they changed the dress code abruptly. There’s a huge pay disparity between leadership and workerbees at my job, so I’m sure those who made the changes to the dress code didn’t even consider the financial implications for the rest of us.

   This change only applies to my team; per HR teams have the ability to set their own dress codes. They made a few changes for men, but this change definitely feels more targeted towards women (men aren’t wearing sleeveless tops or open toe shoes to the office anyways).

   Between being in 4 days a week (other teams are 3!), changes to the dress code, and needing to spend money to now be in compliance, this is really killing morale. I’m job searching, but I am so miserable.

   Long story short: if you have suggestions for dresses, blouses, or shoes (especially shoes!) that are in compliance, I would be grateful for them! Also, if you have suggestions to help me get past how bitter and angry I am about this, I would appreciate that as well.

   1. If you have access to laundry easily, I would not rush to buy more clothes. What you have seems like enough to last you a week and in the post pandemic world, who cares if you wear the same things all the time. I know I am and honestly have not noticed if my colleagues are doing the same.

      Other than that, I’d keep an eye on poshmark and buy some additional pieces when you see deals.

      Good luck with the job search.

   2. Why can a team set its own dress code? Shouldn’t that be set by HR for all similar positions in the entire organization?

      1. Why not? It’s not like there are laws about this kind of thing.

         1. Exactly. But it makes for a very bad work environment! What a crap company.

            1. Yeah I work at a company where everything is at the team level: some have summer Fridays some don’t, some can wear jeans some can’t, some enforce 3 days a week in office and some don’t, some teams make you take PTO fir events like going to a ball game some don’t, some have team lunches paid for by leadership some don’t.

               As someone whose team is always on the don’t side, it sucks.

         2. Wouldn’t HR worry that allowing managers to set dress codes could lead to claims of discrimination or harassment?

            1. Probably not, unless the teams affected all belonged to a protected class.

            2. As an HR person at a large company yes, with more and less-trained decision makers there is a risk of more bad decisions being made (eg arbitrary no hats / head coverings rules).

   3. I’d be annoyed as well.
      I used to commute in a tank top, use a wet wipe to freshen, and put my shirt on as soon as I got to the office.

      https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Essentials-Womens-Sleeve-Popover/dp/B082ZTKMZK
      https://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=751677032&cid=72087&pcid=72087&vid=1&nav=meganav%3AWomen%3AShop%20Women%27s%20Categories%3AShirts%20%26%20Blouses%20&cpos=56&cexp=2926&kcid=CategoryIDs%3D72087&cvar=26331&ctype=Listing&cpid=res23080108801342385728537#pdp-page-content

   4. Job hunt, wear what you have that works under this and good luck getting out of 1996.

      1. Right? What is this place where the OP is working, a convent? The mind reels. I cannot imagine a workplace banning sleeveless tops or mules in 2023.

         OP – usually draconian dress codes are just the tip of the dysfunction iceberg. I hope you’re looking for another job.

         1. Meh. So much whining over a dress code. It is not that big of a deal to wear sleeves and shoes.

            1. I feel like it’s nbd when you know going in what the dress code is but the bait and switch is annoying.

               Also it seems like poor leadership brought this on, so I’m sure there’s other issues too.

            2. Agree with Trish. It sounds like a standard dress code to me.

            3. It’s a very out of touch dress code. I’ve been in the workforce for nearly 12 years. I’ve worked for the federal government (in the front office which was very formal) and a F50 company and have never been told open toe shoes were not allowed. It’s unnecessarily restrictive if there’s no safety reason

            4. Trish, I have so much trouble taking your comments seriously, sorry. You could just respond to everything with “back in my day/get off my lawn” and that would basically cover whatever your opinion is on that particular topic. The perspective never seems to change.

            5. I don’t think it’s that odd of a dress code. It’s similar to what I’ve had at office jobs before WfH. I also think not going sleeveless is a more professional look, which can only help for future jobs. If they were suddenly switching to suiting or something, I would understand being really upset about investment or feeling like it’s bait and switch. But this sounds like something a simple cardigan or blazer fixes, no biggie. I’ve had bigger investments around attending a conference or client dinner. Honestly, in the realm of tough work environments, this rates like a 2. Not the hill to die on.

   5. I understand this must be hard for you, but am I ever jealous. I would love to be able to go into the office and not have to deal with people’s gnarly unkempt feet.

      1. How often do you see coworkers feet even if they’re wearing sandals?

         1. Daily, we have one of those modern office things where everything is open concept and meetings happen on sofas. So many gross feet.

            1. I work in an open office too. I can’t see anyone’s feet when they’re at their desks or at a conference table. Maybe walking by but I don’t notice as I’m usually focused on my work

   6. OP here, I am job searching (I was before this because this nonsense is par for the course). Niche industry so could easily take a year or so.

      1. My advice is look beyond your industry. Unless you’re so incredibly senior that it’s nearly impossible to change, you aren’t stuck. Skills transfer.

   7. For now, I’d just buy a few cheap, lightweight cardigans and keep them in the office to wear over the blouses and dresses you’re already wearing. It might not be the most stylish solution, but it’s the easiest way to quickly and cheaply comply with the policy. Over time, you can buy new things, or you might get a new job, or they might realize that they’ve overreacted. I wouldn’t buy a whole new wardrobe yet. Do something similar for shoes- find one or two good pairs you’d wear anyway and then see what happens.

      1. OP: definitely not trying to buy a whole new wardrobe. Was thinking just 1-2 tops and 1 pair of shoes.

         I know the solution is probably to be frumpy in the mean time and wait it out but I really hate feeling grumpy or uncomfortable in what I’m wearing; it impacts my whole mood.

         1. Would you feel better if you bought a couple cute blazers instead of cardigans? H&M or Zara tend to have something. Or you could trawl Poshmark.

            1. OP: thank you, yes I prefer blazers over cardigans. I don’t know how to feel polished and current in a cardigan. Blazers are usually pricey but I’ll check Goodwill!

         2. What if everyone just ignores it and keeps dressing the same. They are idiots and deserve it.

      2. This – go to your local TJ Maxx/Nordstrom Rack/Jcrew Factory store and grab a few neutral colored cardigans to wear over your exisiting outfits. I also love fashion but when I was full time in office with a formal dress code I definitely had ‘good enough’ outfits vs. ‘big day’ outfits plus an office blazer. My ratio was absolutely 70% ok to good vs. 30% good to great in terms of my outfits and there was a lot of repeating!

      3. This is the way.

      4. My thought, too.

   8. For the tops– I might just buy a couple of cardigans or whatever the equivalent is that you like to wear over the sleeveless tops whenever someone comes by your desk. I would not buy a whole new wardrobe for this nonsense, and do keep job hunting!

      1. +1. I am basically living in sleeveless tops with a lightweight bu tton-down on top this summer. If I’m running around and get hot, I take off the top layer until I cool down.
         Alternatively, check out Target, ON, Banana Republic Factory and Gap Factory for some versatile tops.

         1. Here are some links:

            Big shirt: https://www.target.com/p/women-s-long-sleeve-oversized-button-down-shirt-universal-thread/-/A-88273822?preselect=88076156#lnk=sametab
            Half-sleeve top: https://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=654331022&cid=72091&pcid=72091&vid=1&nav=meganav%3AWomen%3AShop%20Women%27s%20Categories%3ATops&cpos=524&kcid=CategoryIDs%3D72091&ctype=Listing&cpid=res638265017779752263#pdp-page-content
            https://www.gapfactory.com/browse/product.do?pid=663067001&cid=1127845&pcid=1127845&vid=1&nav=meganav%3AWomen%3ACategories%3AShirts%20%26%20Tops#pdp-page-content

   9. https://tenor.com/view/ivana-rrump-mad-everything-first-wives-club-gif-11179871

      1. OP: oh yes I can’t wait to get a new job and explain this is one of the reasons why I’m leaving!

   10. Get a pair of blush colored loafers. They’re less harsh than black. But if you’re already job hunting and you know your work clothes were considered appropriate then just take off your blazer if you get hot. Are they actually going to fire you for temporarily wearing a modest sleeveless blouse?

       I totally understand the frustration. I’ve seen this happen before when some executive gets annoyed at the sound of flip flops or is scandalized by one intern’s spaghetti straps then goes nuclear on the entire dress code. In my experience they just want the egregious violations to stop and won’t say a word about people wearing appropriate but technically banned clothing.

   11. Commute in sleeveless and sandals. Add a few boring lightweight cardigans to your chair and pick up a pair of low block heels in a tan shade. And good luck getting out of there.

       1. +1

          I don’t see this as a problem at all. Wear whatever you want, and have a simple light cardigan at your desk and a simple pair of shoes. It doesn’t matter what they are while you are just sitting there all day, right? You can be cute at lunch/your commute/whenever.

       2. This. Keep boring office shoes that are comfortable at your desk. Keep two J Crew Factory cardigans, one navy and one black, or whatever works with your clothing, on the back of your chair. Done. Especially since you are already job hunting don’t spend one extra penny on this place’s new dress code.

   12. Are you a team of therapists seducing men with your sandals?

       1. Sandals are very sexy in the workplace!

   13. OP: Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately we’re in an open floor plan and my desk is in the direct sight line of leadership, so if I wear my old tops and have a blazer or cardigan with me I would have to actually wear it all day . Which technically is fine but it’s killing my mood and morale. I know throwing on a layer is so minor but I know that it doesn’t look good and that impacts my mood. For better or worse, what I wear really impacts my mood. If I like what I wear I feel great, if I don’t I dont.

       1. You know, if this is the biggest work problem you have….. you are so lucky.
          Your sadness seems disproportionate to the issue at hand.

          Is there something else going on?
          Are you unhappy with your job for other reasons, and this is just the “cherry” on top?
          Are you worried your ?one irritating judge-y insecure co-worker is targeting your cute outfits?
          Are you depressed?

          1. There’s a lot of research that shows what you wear has a large impact on morale, mood and performance.

             And, group punishment (OP said a few ppl were dressed inappropriately so they tightened up the dress code for everyone) and being micromanaged always sucks.

          2. My experience is that when management is unwilling to talk to offenders and instead makes new, ridiculous rules for everyone instead– there’s a lot more dysfunction than just a change in dress code.

             Also, some people enjoy expressing themselves through clothing, and yes it can make them sad to have to reconfigure their wardrobe. Just like some people enjoy having a cozy bedroom and can be thrown off kilter at home if they have to give that up, or people who love to travel feel worn down when they are forced to stay home for a long time.

             1. Yeah if I have a boring, meaningless corporate job that I don’t enjoy then the very least I would want would to a) be treated like an adult and not micromanaged and b) be able to appropriately and professionally express myself through my clothing

          3. I’m sure if her leadership reacts this way they’re unreasonable in other ways too… doubt this is her biggest or only problem at work

       2. OP: yeah there’s a lot I don’t like about this job so this is the cherry on top. Poor leadership (duh), mismatched expectations (get told do to A, do A, then am told I should have done B what was I thinking doing A), meh at best pay / bad benefits, and overly restrictive rules (this isn’t the only thing that’s oddly restrictive). Yes – I am job searching!

          I also lost 25 lbs over the past year and finally was liking how I looked and excited about clothing again. When I was heavier I always felt frumpy and I’m having trouble wearing outfits in which I don’t feel frumpy with the new guidelines. I gained the weight when my life wasn’t in a great place so wearing outfits I don’t like is kind of emotionally bringing me back there.

          1. Ok so are you surrre it’s not you? The weight loss (congratulations!) making you feel good so you want to dress “sexy” at work?

             1. She said she asked 2 levels of bosses if her attire was inappropriate, so it sounds like she’s not the one.

                If she is and 2 levels of bosses didn’t say so when asked, then that’s another issue that would also make me want to leave.

             2. Probably. I worked at a company where one of the women I worked with had a “mommy makeover” (including her downstairs kitty cat, and the only reason I know this is that everyone knew it, because she told them) and she was very very excited to show off most of her new assets. She was why the company had to start enforcing the dormant dress code again, though I am pretty sure no one ever told her directly it was her!

             3. OP: honestly not sure if this comment is real or not, but yes I’m sure it’s not me. My work wardrobe is pretty much all Ann Taylor shift dresses (just above the knee) or black work pants with a blouse (from places like Ann Taylor, Banana Republic). I make sure the shoulder straps are at least 2-3 inches thick (no exposed bra straps, shoulder is mostly if not entirely covered).

                The sandals I wear are the Clark’s Caroleigh Anya that people here love. Low heel.

                As I said various levels of leadership assured me I was not the problem (including two people who developed the new dress code).

                On the other hand, coworkers were wearing flip flops, Birkenstocks, crocs, and slippers to work. The flip flop coworker also wore spaghetti strap dresses. They’re the ones who caused the policy.

                I don’t love the implication that just because someone has lost weight and loves how they look for the first time in a few tears that they don’t know how to dress appropriately for the office and they’re pushing the limit. Especially when that person is a younger woman. I am professional. I know how to dress and behave in a professional environment. Why are you doubting that?

             4. Because you asked management if it’s you, because you didn’t explain all of this in your post, and because you repeatedly worry about looking “frumpy” in normal business clothing.

                Embrace the frump (which is probably not actually frumpy by any objective standard) and focus on being excellent at your job, not best-dressed.

             5. Your wardrobe sounds wholly unobjectionable. I assume the reason for the doubt is just the coworkers in spaghetti strap dresses with flip flops.

             6. OP: Women can care about, focus on, and succeed in both their jobs and being fashionable. I’m really good at my job and I likr to look nice.

                Im in a really male dominated field and it’s been challenging in many ways (a coworker once made a r@pe joke to me. A colleague has said women shouldn’t be in the work force). I’ve worked hard to establish myself as someone who is competent, knowledgeable, abs respected by the men while also remaining true to who I am. It took too long to show that a woman can paint her nails an and do good work. Previous generations of women in my field had to join the boys club in order to get by. I’ve worked hard to not have to do that. So changing the dress code does feel like one step back.

             7. Men don’t generally wear sleeveless tops, spaghetti straps, crop tops, leggings, open toed shoes (and if they do, I don’t want to see it) or above the knee skirts. If you are just talking about being perceived as professional in a predominantly male environment, then you shouldn’t be pushing to wear those things either.

             8. OP: that’s the thing. Equal in a make dominant environment does not and should not mean dressing like men. Women can be treated equally and respected while still dressing like women.

                Men aren’t going to wear dresses to work and I’m not going to wear a tie. That’s fine. We’re both professional and appropriately dressed.

             9. Anon at 2:19 — I didn’t see where OP was advocating for women to be able to wear crop tops or spaghetti straps in the workplace. Also in most workplaces in the Year of Our Goddess 2023, the sandals that she referenced earlier are very acceptable. Shift dresses without sleeves are completely appropriate for a business casual office, and in fact, her bosses have said her exact shift dresses without sleeves weren’t a problem in her office.

             10. LMAO I love it when the ugly girls start weighing in on work wardrobes from this transparent place of bitterness. Just because no one ever compliments your appearance and you gave up on looking nice doesn’t mean other people don’t care how they look. It’s completely fine for OP to want to look her best at work, and not have to look like some lumpy frumpy librarian.

             11. Anon at 2:58: whereas I hate I when the mean girls weigh in. Does it make you feel better to talk to someone like that? What’s wrong with you?

       3. I hear what you’re saying. I still don’t think you should spend any more than you have to to meet this new requirement. Would it help to think of it not as fashion but as a costume or uniform for work?

       4. If you have the blazer visibly with you, do you truly have to wear it all day? I get that you are seen by leadership, but if you prominently display the blazer on the back of your chair, would that be enough to just keep on as you have been?

   14. If you have one pair of shoes that work and you aren’t wearing them outside the office, then they should last a long time. If you want more for more style options, I’d recommend a simple flat. I wear Softwalks at conferences and they tend to be ridiculously comfy. I’d solve the sleeveless thing by putting on a lightweight cardigan (or knit that functions like a cardigan) that matches your shoes. This doesn’t have to be a big deal if you don’t want it to be, especially since you’re already looking and likely won’t see most of these folks again very soon.

   15. I’m not sure if this meets your definition of fashion, but I today I’m wearing a black short sleeve popover blouse from Ann Taylor. It has sleeves but doesn’t get too hot and satisfies my office’s dress code requirements. I wear it at least once a week to the office.

   16. Look for low block heel pumps (Cole Haan makes some good ones) and search “popover blouse.”

       Your dress code is what I’ve always experienced. If you want to wear your sleeveless blouses you can add a cardigan – there are lots of cropped cardigans on the market right now that you may not find as frumpy – or a lightweight jacket.

       1. Cole Haan Women’s The Go-to Pump 45mm https://a.co/d/5llKxpA

   17. +1 to layering blazers or cardigans over the sleeveless tops you have. Also, I’d keep several scarves at the office to throw on top. You can use tissue weight for summer. Done!

   18. For shoes, check out Franco Sarto and Sam Edelman. Choose a style and color (or two) you like. Purchase them in your size. Voila!

       1. OP: Thanks. Just trying to find a style that works

   19. I’d probably throw on a cardigan and call it a day.

       But, if I wanted something new, I’d be scouring BR Factory. I also saw a dolman sleeve silk top at Quince that would cover the whole shoulder.
       https://bananarepublicfactory.gapfactory.com/browse/product.do?pid=7156510910003#pdp-page-content
       https://bananarepublicfactory.gapfactory.com/browse/product.do?pid=792945001&rrec=true&mlink=5001,1,ShoppingBag_brcart1_rr_2&clink=1#pdp-page-content
       https://bananarepublicfactory.gapfactory.com/browse/product.do?pid=762694001&cid=1181666&pcid=1091674&vid=1&nav=meganav%3AWomen%3AWomen%27s%20Clothing%3ATops%20%26%20Blouses#pdp-page-content
       https://bananarepublicfactory.gapfactory.com/browse/product.do?pid=762798011&cid=1181666&pcid=1091674&vid=1&nav=meganav%3AWomen%3AWomen%27s%20Clothing%3ATops%20%26%20Blouses#pdp-page-content
       https://bananarepublicfactory.gapfactory.com/browse/product.do?pid=762659021&cid=1181665&pcid=1091674&vid=1&nav=meganav%3AWomen%3AWomen%27s%20Clothing%3ATops%20%26%20Blouses#pdp-page-content
       https://bananarepublicfactory.gapfactory.com/browse/product.do?pid=753748011&cid=1181665&pcid=1091674&vid=1&nav=meganav%3AWomen%3AWomen%27s%20Clothing%3ATops%20%26%20Blouses#pdp-page-content

   20. I would have one pair of work shoes and a cari or blazer in the office. Done.

   21. This comment from Amy in 2010 has stayed with me and led me to developing a “work uniform” that suited my job even though it does not express my true fashion choices. Obviously, this may well apply only to (1) someone who is on board for it, and (2)someone subject to a fairly staid dress code. I truly hope not to offend anyone who makes very fashion-y choices – whatever works for you is good for you. But this comment has helped me tone it down a few times over the years when that is what I really needed to do.

       “Amy
       08/05/2010 AT 3:00 PM
       News flash: dressing however you want at work is not “empowering.” Women’s magazines love to say this so they can encourage you to spend lots of money on things and they can get more advertising dollars. Then women wear things to work that are not appropriate, they experience negative consequences and career stagnation, and they can’t figure out why. Why can’t I wear my bright-red platform patent-leather peep-toe stilettos and still be taken seriously? I have seen many, many commenters on this blog put forth the idea that as long as your work is great, even as a lower-level employee, you can wear more or less anything you want to work. That is really, really incorrect.
       You know what is really “empowering” at work? Actually having power. Having not only a voice, but having people listen to you and do what you’re suggesting. Having a say into important decisions. Being able to run your own show. Directing, managing and encouraging people who will move up in their careers. Providing people with jobs so they can make a living and support their families. That is empowering. Being able to wear whatever shoes you want to work? Who cares? That kind of fake empowerment has been sold to women over and over by the media. I don’t know whether I’m more disgusted that the media keeps doing it, or that women keep falling for it.
       I would wear a chicken costume to work if I thought it would get me promoted faster. I don’t give a rat’s ass about what some editor from Vogue thinks about my shoes; I care what my boss thinks, because she’s the one who has power over my career. Not my friends, not my husband, not the salesgirl in Nordstrom’s. I am really discouraged when I see young women equating “wearing what I want to work” with being empowered and successful. They. Are. Not. The. Same. Thing. At all. Want to do something that makes a difference? If patent leather or peep toes are not appropriate for your office, put them away. Get some acceptable shoes, work your ass off, and get promoted. Move into management. From there you will be able to influence corporate culture a lot more than if you remain a junior-level employee, slaving away at dead-end assignments, albeit with super-cute shoes. I’d rather sit in the C-suite in “boring” shoes that don’t “show my personality” than wear the cutest shoes ever and go to work every day pushing paper in a cubicle, where no one pays attention to my shoes because I don’t matter.”

       1. This. Also, I have been working in offices for about 20 years now. In each and every one of those offices, I have been known for having great shoes – known by my colleagues, superiors, and staff. My co-workers regularly pretend fight over who would inherit my shoe collection if I were to meet an untimely death. And in all those 20 years I have never once worn sandals or open-toed shoes or anything with a red sole to work. I believe I had a pair of sling-backs in the early aughts but not since. Just saying.

          1. OP: great! Would love to learn from you. What shoes do you wear in the summer?

             I often wear dresses, dropped and full length straight leg and wide leg pants right now.

       2. I too remember Amy’s response. Powerful.

       3. Standing. Ovation.

          Thank you for this reminder.

   22. If you don’t like flats, I would go with a low pointed toe block heel pump.

10. Don’t get bitter- get a new job!! I just got some short sleeve blouses at jcrew factory that might work. I wouldn’t spend a ton of money. Maybe a low heel like the everlane day heel or a similar shoe? Also if it were me, I’d continue to wear sleeves things and have a cardigan over the back of my chair that ostensibly I’m ‘wearing’.

11. Has anyone picked up any slightly dressy booties for the fall they’d recommend? Nothing super high (2.5in or under) that woudn’t look out of place with trousers (so pointy/almond toe is my preference). Maybe the fall items just aren’t out yet?

    1. I think it’s too early!

    2. I would look at Coach.

12. Wondering if any of you well-read ladies can help me since I’m having no luck after forever Googling. Does anyone know the writer who in reference to the death of a spouse (or lover??) talked about the luck of being in the universe at the same time? I think one or both were atheists. I found it so moving and wish I had made note. So many times I’ve wanted to read it again.

    1. Maybe Joan Didion in The Year of Magical Thinking?

       1. I was thinking this one too.

    2. Hm, how long ago? My Wife Said You May Want To Marry Me by Jason B. Rosenthal sounds like this.

    3. Are you thinking of Carl Sagan’s dedication of Cosmos to his wife: “In the vastness of space and the immensity of time, it is my joy to share a planet and an epoch with Annie”? She outlived him though.

       1. Yes! This is it. It’s where she discussed the dedication. She talks about the mere chance that they had 20 years together and ” I don’t think I’ll ever see Carl again. But I saw him. We saw each other. We found each other in the cosmos, and that was wonderful.”

          THANK YOU for helping me find this!

       2. Here is her comment: I don’t ever expect to be reunited with Carl. But, the great thing is that when we were together, for nearly twenty years, we lived with a vivid appreciation of how brief and precious life is. We never trivialized the meaning of death by pretending it was anything other than a final parting. Every single moment that we were alive and we were together was miraculous-not miraculous in the sense of inexplicable or supernatural. We knew we were beneficiaries of chance. . . . That pure chance could be so generous and so kind. . . . That we could find each other, as Carl wrote so beautifully in Cosmos, you know, in the vastness of space and the immensity of time. . . . That we could be together for twenty years. That is something which sustains me and it’s much more meaningful. . . . The way he treated me and the way I treated him, the way we took care of each other and our family, while he lived. That is so much more important than the idea I will see him someday. I don’t think I’ll ever see Carl again. But I saw him. We saw each other. We found each other in the cosmos, and that was wonderful.”

          1. Beautiful!

13. Question for the lawyers in the group: my sister is considering law school. She graduated in interior design a couple years ago and has been working for architecture firms since. She’s interested in construction law. Nobody in our family is a lawyer; what should she be weighing before deciding?

    1. The cost first and foremost. Also, it can be very, very difficult to got into a very specific type of law right out of law school. In law school, she will have to learn all types of law, not just the one that she is interested. Then, after she graduates, she will have to pass a bar exam on all areas of the law. Finally, she may not be able to find a job that is in her preferred field of law.

    2. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3865334

       She should read this before deciding.

    3. No one should go to law school unless their rich parents are paying for them to go to HYP,. and even then they’d probably be better off choosing a different career. She is likely to end up mired in debt and trapped in a boring, stressful job to pay her loans.

       1. Lol what on earth, HYP?

          1. Ah yes, that SCOTUS factory, Princeton Law.

             1. Haha go Tigers!

             2. Hahahaha – Princeton has no law school.

          2. HYS

    4. Think deeply about financial ramifications of removing yourself from the workforce for three years (close to four including study time for bar exam) AND the debt that comes with law school. Will she have enough time left in her career to make up for that gap? Can she cover mortgage / kids daycare, etc (if she’s in that life phase, or might be within the next five years) during the time she’s in school?

       Based upon the remodels going on in my neighborhood, you’d make as much / more money in general contracting than you would as a lawyer but without the debt. Maybe that career pivot would make more sense, if she wants to stay close to her current field but in a different direction.

       1. Not really the point, but how do you get to four years out of the workforce? Law schools start in August or September, and you take the bar exam at the end of July after your third year. Unless you fail, you would only be out of the workforce for 3 years

          1. It takes MONTHS to get your bar exam results, and then you have to find a job, so that makes three and a half years pretty reasonable. There are people who have jobs lined up before the bar exam, but you really can’t count on being one of those people before law school unless your parent is bringing you into their practice.

             1. The typical hiring cycle at highly-ranked law schools means most people start in Sept or Oct before bar results are even out, having been given the full-time offer at the end of the prior summer…

                …but if you’re attending a lower-ranked school and not going the Biglaw route, as it sounds like Vicky’s sister likely wouldn’t be planning on, the job hunt for entry-level positions can indeed take quite awhile.

    5. I am not a lawyer but work in legal education. Most of the successful attorneys I’ve seen in construction law have a civil engineering background. Not saying she won’t be successful, but she will be up against credentialed engineers who have gone to law school as she competes for a job. It’s hard out there!

    6. My recommendation:

       1) If she is interested in construction law, she should connect with people who currently do that job in the community where she would want to work after graduation and very politely ask around until she finds 1-2 people who are willing to have a coffee and talk her through their path to that job. Where did they go to law school (and how recently)? What law schools does their firm hire from? Are people hired directly into the construction law practice? What do they do on a day to day basis? Etc.

       2) Once she knows what law schools construction law firms in her city hire from, she should take a practice LSAT under test conditions and see if her LSAT score (and undergrad grades) are such that she would have a good shot at admission into one of those schools. If the answer is no – or if she would be at the low end of the LSAT/GPA range for the school – then she should not pursue this. That is because she may not get into a school that can actually get her a job or if she gets in there, she may not do well enough to get the job she wants afterwards.

       3) If possible, see if the firms she would be interested in have legal assistant positions. These are jobs people often take to try out law firm life before law school. They’re mostly found in large firms, but some small firms have them. That being said, they would likely pay less than her current position.

       4) Really do the numbers on the cost of law school, starting salaries for the jobs she would want, and whether the debt burden is manageable, especially taking into account 3-4 years of foregone income.

       1. This, especially point number 2. For better or worse, you need to have a certain GPA and testing ability to get into a law school that will get you a job. There are a lot of law schools that put kids way into debt yet can’t get their graduates to pass the bar or get jobs. And those aren’t any cheaper. Being able to do well on the LSAT isn’t really a necessary skill for being a lawyer, but being able to take and pass a standardized test is (the bar exam).

          Also, I tell law students this all the time – the subject matter of what type of law you practice is way less important than the day to day. Do you like writing? Counseling clients? Talking to crabby people (ok that’s being any kind of lawyer, haha)? Just because you love horses doesn’t mean equine law is a good fit – in fact, it may be the opposite.

          I would have her consider IP work. There’s a broad range of what she might be interested in there while still maintaining a design focus. I agree construction law is probably more suited to engineers – but then again, you can learn an awful lot of the job.

    7. I’d suggest she talk to lawyers working in the field to get a sense of what the job is and whether she actually wants that. I read interior design and architecture firms as careers that are creative, big-picture thinkers, with visits to job sites, and a hands-on, active approach to a construction project. Being a lawyer means you are sitting at a desk, in your office, reading and writing all day, every day. Real estate law is very detail oriented in the language of the contract. It is the exact opposite of big picture, creative work. You will rarely get to visit a job site (and when you do it will be annoying because it’s taking away from the billable hour requirements you need to hit every day). I have a friend who left law and is a project manager for a contractor, and I envy her most days.

    8. I am a lawyer who practices primarily construction law – though I am located in Canada so some of my experience may be different. I think that if your sister can talk to some construction lawyers now, before she even takes the LSAT, that would give her the best idea of whether she is interested in the area of work. I had a lot of familiarity with the industry when I started out, but not the law side of things and I definitely had some rose coloured glasses in regards to the actual work of the law.

       I will say though, if she’s already working at an architecture firm, then she’s familiar with the client service side of the law.

    9. A person should only go to law school if they want to be a lawyer. It’s not really a transferable degree or whatever people used to call it. You sister should figure out what “being a lawyer” means and then, if she decides she wants to be a lawyer, go to law school. This process would also mean evaluating what it costs to go to law school and what salary she is likely to make.

14. Anyone want to shop for me? I’m looking for genuine leather oxfords, without a lug sole. I bought Cole Haan Zero grands in camel and cream, but returned them bc I don’t love the wedge sole. I’m debating buying those again or splurging on Office of Angela Scott. Is there no in between?

    1. It’s hard to find non-lug shoes right now!
       Here are a couple options I found on Zappos. My feet like Kork-Ease, but ymmv.

       https://www.zappos.com/p/kork-ease-nottingham-black-full-grain/product/9425316/color/69
       https://www.zappos.com/p/josef-seibel-sienna-85-black/product/9785564/color/3

    2. There are many, many options in between. You have found your way to the internet, so you are already most of the way there. Try searching “women loafer” in any department store’s website and you will find many to choose from. You can also use that search to find brands that carry more options on their own websites or to do an image search to find similar choices.

       1. Loafers =/ oxfords

    3. Check out the Boston loafer on vincishoes-us.com
       I have one in black and I love it

    4. Barker Shoes USA (although they are made in England).

15. What insurance company are you using?
    Why them?
    What policies do you have?
    How has it been getting claims settled with them?

    I have been with State Farm since the beginning. Just out of inertia, and having a local agent when I was growing up was “useful” per my parents. But they have made so many mistakes in my policies this year and their local agents have all turned over and they are terrible. And prices keep rising. They have settled claims in the past ok.

    I am looking to get all my policies at one place, which I figure gets me more discounts?:
    Auto
    Home owners
    Umbrella
    Rental

    Trying to decide if I just move to a different State Farm agent, or do some sort of search online for any of the newer companies. I guess I would lose of my long term client discounts, but maybe it is cheaper elsewhere.

    1. I’m in California

       I have auto through Metromile
       homeowners through California State Auto Assn
       Earthquake through the state plan
       Umbrella through RLI

       It was not cheaper for me to “bundle” any of these, even with the so-called multi line discount. I don’t use a personal lines agent for anything.

    2. I have an insurance agent who writes policies from lots of different companies. Every year around the time my policies renew, he looks around to see if I can get a better deal for the same or better coverage. I highly recommend this route! He looks for all the types of insurance you list above.

       1. Interesting! I have always been wary of the agent idea, figuring out they just got kickbacks behind the table to steer you in a certain direction. So I appreciate hearing about your good experience.

          How did you find your agent?

          1. I found mine through word of mouth (and have referred others to him!), and unfortunately I’m not in your state.

             I have no idea how he gets paid, so he honestly might get some sort of commission. But my rates do truly go down almost every year when he searches for different policies, and they are truly equal or better coverage (I do look at the policies!). It does lead me to switching carriers frequently, but that doesn’t bother me because he takes care of all the paper work. He also advocated for me 2 years in a row when my escrow didn’t release the funds for my homeowner’s insurance in time for whatever reason. So, even if he does get a commission, the relationship is mutually beneficial so it works for me.

          2. They all make commissions and it’s true that some companies pay more commission than others, in order to get agents to (successfully) steer business their way. Agents have a responsibility to show several quotes but there’s a long history of them intentionally obtaining unfavorable quotes from markets that would otherwise be cheaper in order to steer the business to the place where they’ll make the most commission.

             Always check prices online even if you do use an agent.

             Source – 30+ years in the insurance industry.

             1. Thanks to both of you for this great advice.

    3. And I’m the OP – I live in IL. I was surprised when my homeowners insurance just went up 33%. We don’t have the type of climate change associated disasters here so I was surprised.

       1. Our homeowner’s police in metro Phoenix went up about that this year. We have a second home in the mountains (high fire danger) and that policy went up 85% this year. Our auto insurance rates also went up quite a bit this year. We shopped around when we got the renewals but would not save enough to change from the agent we have used for 18 years.

       2. Everyone has climate change. Homeowners insurers have hemorrhaged money. Reinsurers are very very expensive and cautious right now. It’s not personal.

          1. This is what I was wondering – If rates were going up everywhere, with all insurers.

             I just meant that I know it is crazy bad in many areas, especially where major companies are pulling out of insuring homes all together. It’s making me reconsider moving a back to California, and I’m wondering what people are doing.

    4. I have USAA for everything, eligible as a child of military. Best deal if you can get it, and top notch customer service.

       1. +1 – I didn’t really comparison shop but have been happy with USAA. We haven’t made any claims though.

       2. Yes, I’ve heard great things about them. Wish I was eligible! Uncles were in military but no immediate family.

    5. I have my auto, home owners, and umbrella with Geico. I have had no issues. I’m lazy and a satisfizer so I don’t care about saving a little money if it means I can be lazy. I can’t remember the last time I had to file a claim, but in my hazy recollection it was auto and it was easy and fine and I did it all through the app.

    6. We’re in Maryland. Erie for all, homeowners, auto, umbrella. Every few years I take all my policies to a local broker and have them shop around for savings, the best they did in 2022 was to save $15 by going with some company I had never heard of — we stayed with Erie. Erie has handled the claims we’ve had (a tree through our roof and my son’s auto accident) promptly and without any issues. Our current agent is the grandson of the man that we bought our first policy from 40 + years ago.

    7. Car insurance is up everywhere because cars have gotten fancier and harder to fix: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/03/business/car-repairs-electric-vehicles.html

       And home insurance is up because of climate change, which does affect pretty much everywhere, whether it’s fires, floods, hurricanes, or just normal storms causing more damage. And I suspect there’s a similar effect going on with rebuilding being more expensive too.

    8. Late to this but wanted to say that in a year of having a state farm agent in CA, it has been our worst experience with insurance ever. The agents are absolutely abysmal! Plus they were overcharging us and out policies were not well done. They were absolutely useless when I had my first ever car wreck. (Paid damages fine but in terms of the claim, I lost even tho I was clearly not at fault. They never called to assist me/advise me. They sent claims documents to the wrong address repeatedly and even contacted my in-laws agent in another state about one of our policies.

       A couple months ago, we went to AAA via an in-office appointment, everything was transparent, the agent bent over backwards to find additional discounts, explained all aspects of the policies and we ended up saving $1000s. 2 cars, home and earthquake ins. Get out of state farm asap!

16. I’m going to be working remotely from a different country for a few months, so my work hours are going to change due to the time difference. My new normal hours will be 12pm – 6pm local time. I work mostly with people external to my organization and do have a lot of Teams/Zoom/etc meetings. I’m wondering if I should put something in my email signature when I get there about these adjusted hours? Would that be helpful or just weird? If helpful, any suggestions for wording?

    1. I work in a different time zone from most of my colleagues and the way I signal this is I have the local address of my office in my email signature.

    2. Does your org have an office where you’ll be working (in which case I’d say “note, working out of London office” or similar)?

       If not, I’ve seen people note a few select time zones (“my working hours are 12-6 GMT / 7-1 Eastern”)

    3. Put a line in your signature (bold or different color font) that say something like “Currently working in ## UTC time zone.” Linked to a time zone converter with the current time.

    4. Thank you both. I’m not going to be in another branch or office and my org has a very local focus, so it is definitely unusual and will be unexpected. Thanks for the wording suggestions!

    5. Depends on your role – is it realistic that people accommodate your schedule or not? I’d be annoyed if I worked with co-counsel that was randomly in a wildly different time zone and expected people to work around their schedule.

       1. I agree completely. It’s one thing to have a meeting in the middle of the day east coast time to accommodate the west coast, but if you’re in a country with a 6+ hour time difference, you’re going to need to work the hours where your normal job is located, not new country’s hours.

          It’s different if you own the company, I guess, but short of that, you have to bend.

17. I think I may have just discovered an amazing life hack and wanted to share:

    I submitted my US passport renewal with expedited payment and mailing on 7/17. I was resigned to missing a work meeting overseas schedule for 8/29 and had notified people internally that it was unlikely I would be able to attend in person. But, because we travel so often, I selected the option to get the oversized passport book. I go to check my mailbox this morning and, whoa! I have new a passport!

    The only explanation I can come up with is that there is a different workflow for the passport books with extra pages and that the turnaround time is different for that reason. There’s no cost, so it may be worth asking for the larger book if you are going to renew soon.

    1. I think the website just drastically overestimates timing. I renewed mine earlier this summer, didn’t pay for expedited, and got the new one in about a month

       1. +1 it’s just really overestimated. ~6 weeks is pretty long for expedited, tbh. My husband and daughter renewed this year and both had it in about 3 weeks.

    2. I got my regular renewal back that fast as well. I think they are just caught up from covid delays now.

    3. Ah, well I’m glad they’ve worked out their issues then! It was a really pleasant surprise.

18. How do you avoid making your bra straps visible when you wear sleeveless tops? Racerback bra? Sports bra? Clip your straps to your shirt so they don’t slip down? Something else?

    1. I did purchase one of those simple plastic clip things that can turn your bra back into a racerback.

       For work tops/more formal tops, I don’t wear sleeveless tops with narrow straps that can easily expose the bra straps. And I have bras in skin tones and colors that match my typical sleeveless top color so even if there is some exposure it isn’t a big deal.

       But for relaxed day sleeveless tops, and some with narrower straps, honestly I just let my bra straps show if they want to. I have some bras in fun colors that are tonal with sleeveless tops I wear, and I let chaos reign. I think it looks cute and is totally appropriate in my casual social circles. And at the grocery store. And at outdoor summer music festivals/concerts/life.

    2. I choose sleeveless tops that cover the whole top of the shoulder. Or, if it’s still an issue, a racerback bra.

    3. Racerback bra.

    4. Elomi makes bras with a clip in the back so you can pull the straps together as needed. I’m sure other lines do this as well, but I have only seen it on my Elomi bras (I’m a 38G)

       1. My Freya t-shirt bra has that clasp as well.

    5. I do nothing, and have reached a point where give zero f&cks if people see my bra straps. My bust is big enough that nobody who’s looking at my bust is paying attention to the straps. (If only!)

       I’m not in the US, though, nobody here cares about bras (or nipples). If I were, I would sew little bra fasteners under the shoulder, tailor style.

    6. My sleeveless dresses have little snap on straps to secure the bra straps, so yes I guess I use the clip method!

19. I too remember Amy’s response. Powerful.

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