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Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Fullyfunctional
Rettes, this is my first post – reposting from late yesterday – I’ve been reading y’all for many years. I need your help and advice.
I lost my sweetheart of 17 years to a sudden heart attack on July 17. I returned home and found him on our bedroom floor – he was gone. We are 50 years old and had been close since we were 14 years old. He was bigger than life, funny, generous, and stubborn.
I’m so completely unmoored and struggling daily. I’m working hard to keep a relationship with his kids (prior marriage) and his sister to keep that connection with him. I’m living alone in our house surrounded by his stuff and I won’t let anyone touch it. I don’t want to throw away the half and half in our refrigerator, because it was his half and half. These are my daily struggles.
I’m trying to just live in the moment and get through minute by minute, but I’m terrified of life without him.
I know there’s no answer. I have a therapist and that helps somewhat.
Anyone lived through this nightmare who could share some coping strategies?
Anon
I am so sorry. Keep up with your therapist and stay busy. Big virtual hugs from this internet stranger, if you want them.
Layla
I am so, so sorry for your loss. I’m glad you have a therapist you’re comfortable with; so they have experience with trauma-focused techniques? How do you feel about pets? I’ve found my pet to be a huge emotional support, but totally understandable that you might not have the energy to care for one right now. Is there a trusted friend who could help you put some of his belongings in a specific room so that you’d still have them but could choose when to sort through them in your own time? Sorry if these are rambled thoughts or unhelpful-sending you peace through your grief journey.
Layla
*do, no so
Senior Attorney
So glad you came back this morning!
On my way to work this morning I was thinking about you and I remembered that a dear friend of mine lost her dearly beloved husband of many years and through happenstance adopted a little dog within days, and it absolutely saved her. So that’s one more data point if pets are of any interest to you at all.
I also talked to my husband, who lost his wife of 27 years about a decade ago. His advice is “find an activity you can do with other people,” which we both understand is far easier said than done in these trying times. He took up triathlons, of all things, and met a whole bunch of new people and it was like a whole new life for him. Also, when I said it was just a few weeks ago, he said “Oh, she’s in the thick of it. Nothing to do right now but just endure. But it gets less terrible, little by little.”
BIG HUGS TO YOU.
Fullyfunctional
I’m very touched that you were thinking about me. I do have a wonderful dog, she is saving me right now. You and your husband sound very wise, all good advice.
Senior Attorney
I will be thinking about you for a long time, Fullyfunctional. I actually ran into the friend I mentioned at a Zoom meeting today and told her about you. She sends her love to you, and I am happy to report that three years out she is thriving (although of course she still misses her husband terribly and probably always will).
just a note
Hey SeniorAttorney, your compassion and kindness brought tears to my eyes this morning. Thank you for showing up on this board and showing up with love. I think about your advice a lot in my real, non-internet life – things like assuming good intentions, and accepting people as they are.
Ribena
I am so sorry for your loss.
For the kids, The Sad Book by Michael Rosen might help – and it might also help for you? All love from here.
Anon
Joan Didion went through something similar, so if you’re in the mood to read, she wrote a book about the year after her husband’s sudden death called “The Year of Magical Thinking” that is phenomenal. Sending condolences your way.
Jo March
I’m so sorry. I don’t have any advice other than to let yourself lean on family and friends and your therapist, but I’m sending you lots of love and strength.
Vicky Austin
I am so, so sorry for your loss, which I’m sure is all the more painful from the suddenness. Getting through minute by minute is the only way to do it. Lean on your village all you can. My thoughts are with you.
anon
I’m so sorry for your loss. Please be gentle with yourself. It takes time to process a loss of that magnitude and it’s okay to let yourself behave irrationally (for lack of better word) while you come to terms with it. Sending you lots of love from afar <3
Anonymous
I am so sorry for your loss and am glad you’re set up with a therapist. I wish I had words of wisdom but I’m quite sure there are none, especially since grief is so personal and varied and downright weird with respect to when and how it affects any given person at any given moment.
Anonymous
Also, have you talked to a lawyer? It is unclear if you are a surviving spouse or just a surviving sweetheart, but your ability to stay in the house with his things may depend on which you are (and whether there is a will), especially since he has children from a prior marriage. It’s not direct coping help, but losing a loved one and a house can make people unmoored (as can either alone).
Fullyfunctional
I do have a lawyer and am executor of his will, though we were not married and there is an ex-wife, the mother of the two kids. So it’s complicated but thank goodness for the will.
Moonstone
In addition to the work with your therapist, please consider a grief support group. Often they meet in churches but are not religiously affiliated.
Anon
I was just going to suggest this. There are also separate support groups for people that experienced sudden loss versus people who lost someone from long terminal illness. They bring separate issues though the grief can be the same. If you don’t like the first one you try, try another. I haven’t been there but I do have four friends off the top of my head that have lost spouses to terminal illness and all have benefited greatly from support groups.
I also second the advice to get legal counsel about your rights so you can start making plans if necessary.
Big hugs and condolences. The pandemic can’t be helping with your feelings of isolation.
Last thought, don’t be afraid to reach out to friends about an in-person meeting despite the pandemic if that’s what you need. I’m as cautious as they come with pandemic risks but when my good friend’s husband suddenly walked out on her mid-pandemic leaving her with three kids under 5, you can bet I was at her house in 30 minutes with wine and ice cream, pandemic be damned. (Also, F-her soon to be ex. Left her for a new coworker he met less than a month prior. Rawr.)
eertmeert
Also came to say support group. We lost my dad to a sudden heart attack last fall, and my mom has found so much strength and support through her support group. Your doctor may know how to access one as well as your therapist.
I am so so sorry for your loss.
I am coming up on the first anniversary of my dad’s death, and I am starting to adjust to my life without my dad alive. It hurts terribly every day, but the hurt now is less from the events surrounding his death and more from the loss of his presence in daily life. But anniversaries and birthdays and holidays are hard.
Anonymous
So sorry. My advice is to be gentle with yourself. It has only been a few weeks since the love of your life passed away very traumatically. Let the tears flow. You don’t have to get rid of anything right now. There is no rush. You will know when the time is right to throw out the half and half. Maybe think about a touchstone for him — a piece of jewelry he gave you, a stone, something that will be your connection to him. It may be easier once you have that grounding to let go of things life the half and half. Hugs. This is huge and hard. Don’t diminish that and think you have to be back to normal any time soon.
Maudie Atkinson
Yes, be gentle with yourself. Remember that grief can be incredibly physical–the exhaustion, even the physical pain. Get some soft, cozy clothes. Let yourself rest. Drink so much water–more than you think you need.
Anon
Crying is incredibly dehydrating!
Maudie Atkinson
Also, like everyone else, I’m so, so sorry. I’m especially sorry that this is happening now, when many of the rituals that bring comfort following a death are largely unavailable and when being close to loved ones is so difficult. Sending you love.
mahnamahna
I am so terribly sorry for your loss. I lost my dad suddenly several years, and it was a devastating time for both me and my mother. Seeing a therapist is so important.
I will share that my mother’s financial advisor encouraged her to not make any major decisions in the first year after my dad passed and she ignored that advice to her own detriment. (And to the detriment of our relationship and her relationship with my sibling.)
As Senior Attorney has shared on this board many times, the only way out is through. For me, things never “got better” necessarily, just different and it took time. For me, it took a long time. Big hugs to you.
Amber
So sorry for your loss – sending you big hugs!!! I wish there was something that we could do to help you through this. Keep us posted on how you are doing.
Anon
Time is the only thing that helped the most for me. Talking to friends was not as helpful (though I’m grateful) because no one had ever quite been through the same experience of loss as you. Definitely do not toss anything major or move in under a year. But do consider taking a week or a month long short trip to be with your family or friends. It will take you out of the grief a little bit, and when you come back, it might be a little bit better. Continue taking these short trips to be with friends and family whenever it gets too much. Some days you might feel like you can’t get out of bed, and that’s ok.
Anon
I’m so sorry for your loss. My only advice is to let your family and friends (and his family) help you. They can take care of cleaning out the half and half and bring you food. It’s going to be a long slog, no doubt about it, but the grieving process takes time and can’t be rushed. Best of luck to you and I’m sorry once again.
Anonie
I don’t have advice but I am SO incredibly sorry. How awful and heart-breaking. I feel for you!
anon a mouse
I’m so sorry for your loss. I haven’t been in your shoes but I helped a dear friend who lost her husband suddenly. I agree with the suggestions to find a grief support group. Can your therapist help you find one?
Also, do you have a trusted friend or two that you can ask to help you in the months ahead? There’s so much you will have to navigate, legally, emotionally, socially. If you have someone who can do the legwork of research, preparing papers for you, sharing the news beyond your immediate circle, etc, that can be a big help.
And give yourself time. Don’t want to throw away the half and half? DON’T. At some point you’ll be ready. If that’s not today, it’s okay (until it starts to smell). It might take you 6 months or more to be ready to start taking different steps, and that’s okay. Everyone grieves differently. Right now you are living minute by minute. One day you’ll realize you’re taking it hour by hour, then day by day. It’s a slow process but you will find a way to adjust to your new normal. Hugs.
Anonymous
>>One day you’ll realize you’re taking it hour by hour, then day by day. It’s a slow process but you will find a way to adjust to your new normal.
For me, this was an important reframing of grief when I suddenly lost someone close to me. Sometimes it felt like people were, with good intentions, urging me to feel less loss, get beyond it, or telling me the intensity of emotion would wane, and it felt …dismissive? disrespectful of my love and loss of connection? Then a friend told me that it’s not that the grief would go away or get less intense, it’s just the intervals between feeling overwhelmed and stricken would gradually get longer and longer, and in between I would start to feel normal again, and that was as it should be. The reframing helped me a lot.
I’m so sorry for your loss.
PNW
If this helps as some sort of validation, when my mom passed away many years ago no one could bear to throw out the leftover chicken noodle soup that had been her last meal. It sat on the stove for almost a week until the church ladies came to tidy up for the post-funeral reception. Her death was expected but for some reason between 4 kids and my dad this was something we collectively couldn’t cope with.
Be kind to yourself. I’m so sorry.
Anonymous
Lots and lots of love to you. So sorry. If the therapist does not help, no harm in switching. Also don’t rule out medication. It helped me short term.
Anon
I am so sorry for your loss. My sister-in-law lost her husband to a sudden heart attack at the age of 47 a year ago this week and was also the one to discover what had happened. It was extremely sudden and tragic. She described very similar feelings to those you have mentioned in your post. Unfortunately, from what I saw of her grief, every day will be a struggle for a long time until it because tiniest bit less each day that time goes on. She still has some of his items she can’t bear to move out of place, but has been able to do so with others. As I said, it has now been a year for her and she is still having a difficult time, but has been able to put one foot in front of the other and has begun to develop new routines and figure out what her life looks like now. All this to say, what you are going through is the most difficult situation and your life will never look the same without him, but you will be on the other side of it one day. Others have said to be kind to yourself and I will echo that, as well as to remember that there is no “right way” to grieve or to handle this. Unfortunately, you will just need to feel your feelings and remember that your family and friends want to support you in any way they can, so try to let them do so if that feels right.
Elsbeth
I lost my husband suddenly several years ago. What really helped me was giving myself space to deal with things slowly. It honestly took me a few years to really go through his things. I would get rid of some, but not all, and then repeat. I just wasn’t ready at first. I also slept in one of his uniform shirts that still smelled of cologne until even I thought it was too gross to continue. He had a huge t-shirt collection and a lot of his police uniforms, so I found someone on Etsy that made them into a quilt. Practical, and wasn’t taking up huge amounts of space, but still allowing me to be sentimental. I’m someone who needs to be distracted, so after a few weeks I returned to work. We worked for the same government, so my coworkers all knew him, and his best friend had been his boss. I honestly spent a lot of time crying in my office with friends, and reminiscing, and luckily I had a hugely supporting employer so it was fine. I just couldn’t be at home anymore. And remember the circles of grief- anybody outside your circle can eff the right off with however you find best to deal with your grief.
Ses
I am so sorry for your loss. Nothing will make it better, but some things can help you keep moving while time passes.
For me personally, when coping with loss, there are two things that help me keep moving. One is taking a break from the place the loss happened. That’s particularly hard right now with travel limitations, but a weekend away from home can help break you out of the constant reminders that every corner of your home is sparking right now. Maybe not possible, but if there’s someone whose guest room you can cry in for a couple days, or a quiet vacation home you can stay in, that’s something that has helped me.
The other is just doing some things that I would normally enjoy as a healthy part of my life, even if I don’t enjoy them. You don’t need to enjoy them, going through the motions can be enough to get you through the day. Playing with your animals, going for a walk, eating a meal, calling a friend… the theatre of normalcy when nothing is normal. This helps me.
My thoughts are with you and as an internet stranger I’ll just say that although you’re terrified, this internet stranger believes in you and your ability to make it through this.
Also, this community is amazing and was here for me years ago during a personal crisis. Post your city and I maybe one of us will be able to do a socially distant walk or just say hello.
Anon
I am so very sorry for your loss. Processing this grief is very hard and takes time. You will feel contentment and happiness again, but it’s ok to not be able to see that right now. It’s not much but these interviews with widows, hearing from people who had gone through this situation, helped me through a time of grief youtube.com/watch?v=_NL9FaBoKYs
In-House in Houston
Hi Ladies, I posted this yesterday on the desk post but I don’t think many of you saw it, so here it is again:
Hi ladies, remember that super cute yellow daisy sweater that was featured here a month or so ago at NM? Well it’s on sale even more now – $77 from $221. I just bought it!
https://www.neimanmarcus.com/p/lisa-todd-classic-daisy-crazy-ls-cotto-prod235131512?childItemId=NMTY7X7_
Anonymous
Thanks for the heads up! I just bought it as well.
SSJD
I am tempted. What’s it made of? There is no information provided, which is strange. Is it washable? Did anyone see it in person–how is the yellow IRL? Bright? Green-tinted?
Ant baits
A few months ago, there was a discussion of the best brand of ant baits. I’m not finding it through searches. Would someone please remind me of the brand?
CHL
Terro
Monday
+1. I also tried their outdoor treatment, which you sprinkle around your house (more specific instructions on the package). It was very helpful in combination with the baits.
Flats Only
Oooh – good tip! I’ve been been using the bait liquid (big drop on a business card where the ants appear), but I think we’ve got a pretty good infestation and I need more ammunition!
Anonymous
Yes, Terro works for me.
Anonymous
Thanks!
Clementine
Following with interest… every year we get a few in the early summer but they easily go away with a combination of borax and sugar. This year… THIS YEAR. The battle is ongoing. I have the Raid brand ones and they seem to be somewhat effective, but…
Bonus: In an effort to get rid of them, I’ve been keeping all counters SUPER clean. So bright side: my countertops have been SPARKLING for months.
Mrs. Jones
Same!
Anonymous
To kill ants try some diatomaceous earth powder. It’s non toxic to your family and the environment. You can buy a bag on amazon for pretty low cost.
Anon
It’s non toxic, but don’t ever breathe it into your lungs!
Anon
For outdoors use, the stakes with liquid inside work great and really end any infestation
Marie
Agree. Only thing that seems to work.
Anon
I think I was OP on that. The consensus was Terro, which I bought and it worked.
For some reason it works better with ants that are coming into the house than it does for me when I place it outside in the garden.
Anonymous
Advion Ant Gel (get it on A**zon) beats everything I’ve ever used hands down including Terro. The stuff is truly amazing. We get an ant invasion in the kitchen every summer. I put the Advion gel out and they are gone overnight.
Anonymous
Is anyone on here a CRE lawyer that made the move from a law firm to either in house or the business side of things? I love working with real estate, but I’m starting to be over law firm life. However, it seems like my only in house options are legal asset management type jobs and I really don’t want to be the only real estate lawyer in the legal department. Seems like that would be one of the first jobs to go in a restructuring and you wouldn’t get the work life balance if there’s not a counterpart to cover for you.
Cat
not a CRE expert, but you’re right it will be tricky to go in-house unless it’s somewhere enormous. Most companies don’t have enough volume of real estate-specific legal issues to need a dedicated attorney for it. Big-enough companies will have a few non-legal roles for it (e.g., facilities manager that is responsible for lease compliance, maintenance agreements, etc)… if you’d be willing to do a non-legal role your options may open up.
Anonymous
I do CRE and just interviewed with a REIT for a spot in the legal department; my sense is that the candidates were mostly people with CRE backgrounds. While the company’s legal department is small, the other attorneys all handle actual CRE matters (to various extents; they have someone who’s main thing is corporate work but does a bit of the RE stuff) so you’d be less on-your-own with regard to vacations/balance, etc. The takeaway (I think) is that looking somewhere whose business is CRE could help you avoid some of what you’re seeing as downsides.
AMZN
Amazon has a massive real estate department with offices around the globe. Plenty of former real estate lawyers in non-legal roles. Check our their careers page.
Coach Laura
Microsoft too.
CountC
I do not have an CRE background, but as a data point, we have a 200-person law department with 75,000+ people globally and we only have one RE attorney in-house. He has support people and other professionals, but no other RE attorneys.
Anon
Look at companies with large physical presence. Think hotels, retail, restaurant chains, etc. These companies have lots of real estate attorneys.
Murz
I want to increase my knowledge about nutrition, digestive health, and the impact of digestive health on other health areas (especially skin). A lot of the literature in this space seems to be biased and pushes a certain diet or lifestyle (or brand of products)! Does anyone have tips for how to obtain neutral information on this topic?
Anon
Check out your state’s cooperative extension service! They’re usually run through a land-grant university. Most offer information and classes on nutrition, food prep on a budget, gardening, food preservation and more. Here’s an example from my state: https://fshn.ifas.ufl.edu/extension/
If your local university offers a nutrition, food and exercise science program, that’s another place to look.
Anonymous
PubMed
Anon
As far as I know, a medical elimination diet is still considered the most accurate and sensitive test of dietary interactions with symptoms of various kinds. I don’t know what the “turn around time” for dermatological symptoms to show up is though!
Anonymous
GuthealthMD on Instagram is a good resource. He is plant-based, but I am not and find his tips helpful (he also has a new book called Fiber Fueled). Also, chiefspicemama on Instagram has awesome info on how spices play into our digestive (and other) health, and she has good recipes, too.
This dress
OMG I love this dress! Does anyone have it IRL? I feel that I have a short torso (so defined waists are often around my hips, so the fit isn’t ideal even if it “fits”) and am wary of trying mail-order roulette now. [And thanks to COVID-15, I am actually in need of some new office-OK items.]
Amber
I don’t have this one but I do have similar dresses from JCrew. I find that with shift dresses like this, they are not that forgiving in the stomach area so even if you eat a big lunch, your stomach looks big. I agree that this dress is SO cute though!
PolyD
I just bought a shift dress from J Crew (not this one, it’s a sleeveless one with sort of a burlap look to it, trust me, it’s nicer than it sounds). I’m 5’3” and about 130lbs, 32DD, and usually wear a 27 or 28 in jeans, generally a 4 or 6 in Ann Taylor dresses (6 for sheath dresses) I bought the J Crew dress in a 6 and it fits well, there’s enough space through the abdomen and hips that it skims rather than fits tightly. I usually am a little bigger through the hips and thighs because I’ve lost all my dance muscles, but even if I were in better shape, I think the 6 would work.
I think I am pretty regular-waisted, though, maybe slightly short-waisted – moto jackets and the like that are supposed to hit at the waist always seem a bit long on me. The J Crew dress I got seems to fit fine in that regard.
Hope this is helpful.
Senior Attorney
Have you tried petite sizes? They are shorter-waisted so that might work. (Although granted I wouldn’t want to gamble on a no-return item.)
Anon
So, I think a lot of us hear things like “trust funds” or “family money” but don’t have a strong idea of what that really means. Since this is an anonymous site, I was wondering whether anyone who comes from family money (or who has friends/relatives who do) can “tell all.” I know I’m not the only one who would find this fascinating (just like the Refinery 29 money diaries). How much money, where did it come from, did you have to be a certain age to get it, did it affect your career choices, does it affect your relationships, what’s your charitable giving like, I’d love to hear it all.
Anon
I mean, how much family money? I have the tremendous privilege of having parents who paid for my education and frequently pay for things like vacations, but I wasn’t gifted a home or a million in the bank or anything like that. My ex came from family money – his parents had a large business (started by his grandfather) which they sold for a good amount of money. His parents had an enormous house and several vacation homes. They gifted each of their four children 100k to put towards their first home, and routinely gave them other monetary gifts. My ex was on the payroll of the family management company for “accounting”, which meant that he looked over their investment portfolio for about 4 hours every months and was paid 2k a month to do so. I don’t want to generalize because this family had serious issues and manipulative narcisstic tendancies, but the money came with tremendous strings attached and my ex basically never worked much and kind of expected everything to be handed to him while complaining that our lives were not as comfortable or fancy as they should be. If I ever have significant money, I will to try make sure I teach my children the value of hard work and independence and not use my money as a way to purchase love and favors.
Anonymous
This: nothing good comes from $$$. Good things come from $, like paying for a BA so that you graduate with no debt and also with expectations of working.
Anon
Huge amounts of money really screws people up.
I watched it happen with extended family. It was jaw-dropping to watch the series of objectively terrible decisions, made better and washed away by the magical money fairy. It ended up doing a lot of damage to a lot of people.
a-non
Regular poster going anon. My husband’s family is pretty wealthy, and he has “accounts” but it’s not a trust. His parents paid for his medical school, and on top of that he has around 450k in an investment account that he knew about after college, but hasn’t really spent besides for the down payment of our house (60k). The bigger deal will be when he inherits from his parents, they have 2 vacation homes and I’d assume close to 25m, but they are fairly young and very healthy.
The money came from his grandfather on his dad’s side, who was a physician but also was very wealthy before he immigrated to the US. His dad has grown the wealth he was given because he’s also a physician, but was obviously in a very good place to do so. I believe when the grandfather passed away, they found bricks of gold in his safe that nobody knew about.
I don’t think it affected my husband’s career choice since the amount available to him now isn’t enough to not work for the rest of his life, but we recognize what a privilege it is not to have student loans. We don’t tell any of our friends, but my parents know. Another big privilege is that my in laws will pay for our children’s college education.
Anonymous
I come from a “small” amount of family money. My great grandparents were wealthy, and their money was passed to my mother’s generation. It is enough that college is paid for, my mother was able to buy my father out of the house when they divorced, she can have a second home, and she has enough resources to fund 15 – 20 years of full time care or a nursing home. My mother’s generation has passed on enough money to each member of my generation that if we invest it wisely, our children’s college will be paid for. My cousins, sibings and I have not touched it (we talk about these things openly) in order that we can give our kids the same gift of no college loans that we were given. That money will grow, and with inheritances from our parents, we will someday be wealthy, but we all need to work at jobs that can fully support us. The main thing it does is give us freedom – freedom from worrying about paying from our parents’ care, and freedom from college loans (not grad school – anything past college has all been on the individual). It is a huge, huge gift, and I know everyone in my generation is grateful for it. I hope we can pass the same thing on to our own kids.
Monday
My situation is similar. I went to an expensive private college and bore almost none of the cost myself. I graduated with about 10k in loans and paid that off on my own. My mom (one surviving parent) paid or will pay a down payment on homes for each of us–not mansions, but good houses in a somewhat expensive city. None of us like taking money from her, but if there was ever a catastrophic emergency that went beyond all our savings, we know she would step in. She talks about leaving us inheritance, but I am proceeding as if she won’t, because who knows? I don’t know how much money she really has, though I think my brother does. I am somewhat uncomfortable with his level of interest/knowledge because I don’t think it’s any of our business, at least right now. She’s in good health and totally competent.
All of that said, the generation after me will definitely not be so lucky. All 3 of us (me and my siblings) have partnered with people with no family money, and we all work middle- to low-paying jobs. These decisions were driven by priorities and a way of life that are not driven by wealth. We’re definitely not throwing family money away, but it’s simply going to run out. (Also, of course there are all the economic and professional factors that have changed over the past 50 years making it harder to make and save significant money today.) We are a downwardly mobile family, and it’s pretty common.
Anon
My cousin (who also inherited money from our grandparents) is downwardly mobile now too. It sucks. She’s a social worker and her husband has a very low-paying job. She said it’s going to be an adjustment knowing that her child is going to grow up with a very different life than she did (although said child will still be supported by the inheritance from its great-grandparents).
familymoney
I’m totally open to discuss this.
Here’s what family money means in my situation:
-Family trust started by the matriarch/patriarch (my grandparents) which holds an array of investments and pays out dividends each year to the grand-kids.
-Individual 529 accounts for each child. This was used for undergraduate school funds. My understanding is that this was funded mainly by my parents, but cash gifts from the family were also deposited in this account.
-Custodial account. These accounts were managed by my parents until the age of 25, there were no strings attached. Mine valued at about 250k, grown from the trust dividend payouts over the years.
-Other financial help & gifts: first car after undergrad (30k), gift for down-payment (100k)
Anon
I’ll offer another perspective of a more modest inheritance. My maternal grandparents set up a college fund for me that was worth about $50K when they started it and $120K by the time I was 18. The money came from my grandfather’s very successful business that he started, although there was some “older” money from my grandmother’s side since her family was well-off (I don’t know much about them). In any case, the business was the main source of the income for my college fund and my cousins’ college funds of the same size. The money was completely used up for college and I also had to take out loans for the remainder. I may inherit additional money from these grandparents one day, but it’s currently in the hands of my parents and I’d rather they use it for whatever they need first.
I also inherited $200K from my paternal grandparents when they died. In that case, the money came from well-timed investments in the 1950s, although both of my grandparents were solidly middle to upper-middle-class (think New England prep with well-managed money and frugal values, but not fabulous wealth) to start. There were no strings attached on this money. I used $25K to get a master’s degree at a well-regarded public university (it would’ve been more if I hadn’t gotten tuition remission through my TA jobs) and the rest is invested. I don’t know that I would have gone to grad school for sure if I hadn’t inherited the money; I was too burned from leaving undergrad in the recession to step out of the job market without a safety net.
As for charitable giving, we set up a scholarship for an organization that is meaningful to my husband (who came from poverty) and also support several local charities.
I’m very grateful for the legs up I’ve received and want to pay it forward, especially since it’s obvious that the path for wealth was set up over many generations, even if the actual wealth was mostly made later. I can trace my ancestry in America back to the 1700s or 1600s on both sides, which gives me an immense amount of privilege that wasn’t afforded to my immigrant husband. There were so many generations that were able to reap the benefits of their privilege and set their children up for success. I’m very cognizant of that and am also researching our family history regarding slavery. Both sides enslaved people and I’m actively researching to find out more and to learn if any wealth was inherited from that toxic legacy.
Anon for this
Other posters have talked about the advantages of coming from a well-off family, and the advantages of knowing that family can bail you out of trouble. My partner’s late grandfather was a financial genius. There’s no other way to put it, he was fabulous at picking individual stocks and making huge sums of money off it. He had 10 grandchildren and each year invested 10k (or whatever the gift limit was) on their behalf. It meant each child had an inheritance of about a million by the time they reached adulthood (each amount was slightly different because he’d invest in different things for each child, and as he got older, he became less attentive so the younger kids had slightly more anemic portfolios than the younger ones). I’m only close with about 4 of the grandkids- one kid completely ignored it and continues to pretend that it doesn’t exist and is ultra-frugal; one frittered it away in his twenties on travel, failed businesses and grad school; one spent half of it on a house and continues to draw from it for small amounts; and for us, we spent about a 1/3 of it on a house and are working with our financial advisors to make it more tax efficient and maintain it (to my knowledge, we’re the only set of kids that has worked on “maintaining” or monitoring it because it’s all individual stocks).
anon
My parents are wealthy enough that estate taxes matter. Growing up, we vacationed in Europe (in homes that we own) for 2-3 months every summer. I regularly missed a couple weeks of school every now and then for other little side trips. My education was completely paid for, as was my first house and every car I’ve ever owned. I recently received a 6-figure amount of cash “just because” after they sold a small international property. I have a high-paying job myself (probably thanks to all the unpaid internships and zero sense of urgency to accept lowball offers when job searching) so I could cover all of my own expenses and be financially independent. However, my parents think it’s best if I save/invest as much as I can, so they continue to foot the bill on things like cell phone, car insurance, etc. My friends know that I grew up “comfortable” but probably couldn’t guess the full extent. I periodically splurge on high-quality clothes and shoes but in general I don’t live a flashy or extravagant lifestyle.
Ellen
There is money from My Grandma Leyeh’s side of the family. No one will tell me how much and where it all came from, but there’s really none on Grandma Trudy’s side, and this caused friction when Mom&Dad married b/c Grandma Leyeh claimed that Dad could have married into a more wealthy family from Riverdale. She said they had “old money” whatever that means. But Dad said the woman Grandma wanted him to marry was well off, but looked too much like a moose, and he did not want to have to be married to that for his whole life, while Mom, while not svelte, at least had a cute face. Over the years, I’ve come to realise that I am more like my mom, and that is why some men are interested in me b/c I am NOT all skin and bones,have a cute face, and have a good job. But money is not something I look for in a spouse, just someone who will love and respect me for me.
Anonymous
Would any of the above posters care to donate to my student loan fund? Kidding….kind of…
Anonymous
Or would any parents like to adopt me?
Anon
i have some family money, but not a trust fund. college was paid for by parents as well as part of grad school. my mom’s parents had no money, but my mom’s uncle (my great uncle) developed a very successful business and has been very generous. He grew up in poverty as the child of immigrants. My dad’s parents were Holocaust survivors, so no family money there, but his parents put a huge value on education, both parents always worked and were very very frugal (after having everything taken away from you in an instant, my grandmother was subconsciously scared that would happen again) and did what they could to help, though my dad had college and grad school loans. I grew up upper middle class, though my parents were generally fairly frugal as well, though I definitely had everything I needed/wanted and always knew there was a safety net, though it was never discussed. i have some anxiety about money probably because I grew up being reminded how you shouldn’t order a beverage at a restaurant because it added a lot to the bill, etc. and my parents have only started sharing with me how much money they actually have in recent years as they age and i think to help alleviate my anxieties about money. i am eternally grateful and realize how privileged i am and hope to provide the same for my kids
Kk
Regular poster, anon for this.
My family had a second home, international vacations, and my parents generously paid for private school, college and grad school, a giant wedding, and numerous other major gifts. This is nothing compared to my husband’s trust fund experience, which is in turn nothing compared out our friends who have nesting doll yachts and never fly commercial.
It’s all very relative – each family sets things up differently. It also depends how many generations removed from the wealth you might be – and if there’s a family office who sets up distributions and provides guidance. I’m happy to answer questions but with the stipulation that our situation is likely very different given the involvement of our family office and the way ours is set up.
Kk
whoops, not anon, I guess.
Anonymous
I want nesting doll yachts! You don’t realize how basic you are until you learn things like this.
HW
I had to google it. Amazing!
Anon
I thought it was toy yachts for kids and I thought okaay that’s kind of pretentious but you don’t actually have to be wealthy to buy your kid a toy yacht. Um, nope.
Anon for this
My dad did not come from money, but he was extremely smart, worked hard, and was very successful. He paid for my college and grad school out of pocket, and plans to give me the house I grew up in within the next 5-10 years (he’s looking to move to FL). Throughout my childhood, he put money into brokerage accounts for me and my siblings through the Uniform Gift to Minors Act, that was originally intended to be for college funds but since he could afford to pay out of pocket for that, the accounts just turned over to us on our 18th birthdays. I’m in my late 20s now and the account is worth about $400K. I don’t plan to use it unless I need a down payment (unlikely given the house is being gifted to me), so I’m currently viewing it as long-term savings for my own retirement that will just grow over time. My dad plans to spend much of his net worth living well in retirement, which is fine, but whatever’s left when he passes will also come to me and my siblings. Could be nothing if he lives to 100 or needs long term care, could be $Ms for each of us if he dropped dead tomorrow. Obviously I hoping he is healthy and lives to 100, and am not counting on that money.
The amount of freedom that having that much money “just in case” is really incredible. I only spend my own income, but its just an enormous safety net, so I don’t have the same worries if I were to lose a job, or got really sick, or anything like that.
Diana Barry
My parents were pretty well off and paid for my college and law school, and I am really grateful for that!!!
I am also a T&E attorney and have clients with a lot of family money. One of my clients is 80 and has a $70M estate and is continually astonished at how much money she has (her father was the one who made the money, in NY real estate). She is lovely and does a lot for her community and other charitable causes: supporting schools and STEM learning with time and LOTS of $$, etc. Her (adult) kids have had trouble with motivation, keeping jobs, spending within their means, etc., and the older one is always after her to make sure they will have ‘enough’ money when she dies. Another one of my clients is a married couple with $60M, around 70 years old, and they have a continuous give and take between them and their (adult) kids over the amount of money they are transferring to the kids – the older kid feels like it’s never enough and the parents worry about running out of money during retirement. Their older kid has had everything handed to them – $$ for their penthouse in NYC, $$ for their Hamptons house, $$ to start their own hedge fund, etc. It is really hard, with giant amounts of money, to keep the kids motivated/productive and not entitled. I find that my clients with ‘smaller’ estates (but still lots of $$ – $5M to $20M) have had better luck with raising their kids to be productive adults. Of course, YMMV!
Anon for this
Agree. I think $5M-20M is a sweet spot. Really don’t have to worry about money at all, but not so much that your lifestyle is like MTV Cribs all day every day.
Anon
A very modest by this board’s standards example… My father died when I was 4 and he was one of those charming types that could turn any venture into a success. When he died, his funds were divided between my four half-siblings and myself. We were allowed to draw on it for “educational purposes” – so it paid for a couple trips to Europe in high school with school groups (model U.N., etc), and some years when money was tight for my single mom, it paid for my private school tuition – but otherwise, we couldn’t touch it til we got a lump sum at age 30. The will required all of us to sign a pre-nup if we got married before age 30 stating that our spouse wouldn’t touch this money. I spent $10k of it on urgent house repairs when I was in law school, gave $10k to my mother for an emergency she had, then held onto it for a few more years to be sure I spent it on something really, really important. I ended up using the remainder ($55k) on my law school loans (I originally owed $110k). I have just $5k left on my loans now, and having that $2k monthly payment gone in September is going to be an insane gift – one that I definitely wouldn’t have this early without that money.
Anon
I am fascinated by the replies and appreciate that people are open to answering. Thank you.
Just out of curiosity – are any of the people who have replied that they have family money not white?
a-non
I’m not, and the side of my husband’s family the money is from is Persian, he looks white but is only a quarter.
a-non
sorry that was worded poorly. He’s a quarter Persian.
Anon
I had an ex-boyfriend in college with an absurd amount of family wealth that was Persian. The family was very wealthy in Iran– like literally to the point where they provided power to an entire town so that their mansion could have electricity– and sent all of the kids/money out of the country pre-revolution. His family was very frugal and lived very conservatively– I don’t think he even realized the amount of money he had was unusual.
Anon
My husband has family money and is East Asian-American. I’m white. His parents came to the US for graduate school, and his father founded a tech company that he sold 25 years later. My husband doesn’t know his father’s exact net worth, but estimates it’s in the low 9-figures. Five homes in the US, four overseas, family foundation, endowed chairs at universities. Despite this, my husband was raised with frugal values and still clips coupons, drives a 17-year-old car, buys generic brands, etc. He attended public school, earned his BA/MS in four years, and has a stronger work ethic than almost anyone I know. In terms of wealth transfer, there are cultural differences in how his family thinks about wealth, family responsibilities, education, and community. His father gifted him $1M in company equity during grad school, and unfortunately it lost about 60% of its value within 2 years after the company was sold. DH cofounded a startup but left fairly early. Our current net worth is about $11M. I work full-time in healthcare, and DH switched to a low-paying creative field that he loves. Our debt is our mortgage. FIL has funded the 529s for our kids, both of whom currently attend public school. I worry a lot about our kids becoming entitled/lazy because of family wealth, so we try to counter it pretty hard with assigned chores, doing housework ourselves, living in a neighborhood that has a mix of property values, sharing information about donations, etc. We’re reading “Little House in the Big Woods”right now, and in addition to the antiracism work that the book necessitates, we talk a lot about how freaking hard the Ingalls family worked every day, all of them, even the young kids.
Anon
This is so fascinating. Frugal values even when there is significant wealth are so, so important.
LaurenB
I think a lot has to do with the lifestyle that one leads. We are fortunate and my kids are as well, but they don’t have diamonds in the soles of their shoes and their friends would really have no idea how much they will ultimately come in to, and that’s perfectly fine because under-the-radar is the way to go. They lead the typical lives of twentysomethings – their lifestyle is t-shirts, jeans, pizza and a beer with friends, not clubbing it in designer gear.
Jo March
Can I ask how having multiple homes works? Do you have a home base or split your time somewhat equally among a few? What about your belongings, like sentimental art you want on the walls, and what about keeping groceries and other household necessities stocked? And what about clothes? Do you pack a whole summer wardrobe when it’s off to your seasonal vacation home or do you already have clothes there? This seems so logistically complicated.
a-non
from my experiences, they use 1 house and the rest are second homes. In my in-law’s case, they have a summer vacation home and a ski home. Both are stocked with the necessary clothes, my father in law frequently travels with no carry on or check in luggage. They also have cars at each home. They will empty out the food at the end of each season when they know it’ll be empty for a while. Ski home is fully managed, the summer vacation home has family that lives nearby that can help out if necessary.
anon
all such good questions!!!
Anon
I’m the anon from above, whose FIL has multiple properties. For him, it’s a mix. His primary residence is on the west coast, and he purchased another home in the same town for his wife’s parents. He has three investment properties at a vacation destination in the US — they are all apartment/condo units close to each other. When he travels there, he stays in one of the units, and relatives/friends stay in the others. I believe he primarily thinks of those as real estate investments. They’re furnished, but honestly, it’s not particularly fancy, just functional. He could furnish them more lavishly and rent them out, but chooses not to. He stores a vehicle there as well. The overseas properties are in his country of origin and include units in the same building for his siblings and parents, as well as another investment property in a nearby country. Because his extended family lives in the overseas properties, they manage things while he’s gone. He’s currently locked down at his primary residency, but normally he would spend at least a month at the vacation destination and another two months overseas, often more.
anon
very interesting thread, although I can’t help but notice how many wealthy people verbally minimize their wealth. But I get it.
Anon
I noticed that too (including in my own response), but in my head, I guess I feel the need to qualify that I’m not technically in the 1%/the possessor of untold millions, even though inheriting less than half a million is still SO much money.
anon
Yeah I think constantly hearing about Bezos and others like him has totally thrown off my perception of how well off my family actually is.
Anon
It’s indicative of the wealth disparity in the country. I’m in the 40th percentile for income and 80th for net worth, despite, or rather because of, a lack of family money/support. I know I have no backstop whatsoever and have structured my relatively frugal life accordingly. I guess what I’m trying to say is that 80th percentile for net worth sounds cool, but it’s nowhere close to being able to not work and while day-to-day crises aren’t an issue, an extended job loss or illness could still render me unable to ever retire. tl;dr – in the USA the middle is really hollowed out.
Anon
This. Also, I did not/do not have family money. Still had immense privilege but had to pay my way through college and law school, paid for our wedding, no cash “gifts”. Benefited from things like my parents “paying” for flights using frequent flyer miles and having a very comfortable childhood, etc. However, I’ve risen up the ranks and my husband and I each earn money in excess of what I would have considered “crazy rich” growing up. We are very comfortable but only now that I travel in circles do I see how much insane wealth there is in this country. Wealth I could not have imagined prior to attaining the level of wealth I currently have. I certainly don’t think I’m not wealthy but I can see how if you only knew the circles I live in now you might think yourself “not that wealthy” because you see so much more insane wealth but you don’t necessarily see what the rest of the country lives like.
Anon
One more thought in this vein (I’m the 12:00PM anon) – Of my friends who stood to inherit wealth, in all but one case, the nursing home got it all. That seems to be the way it goes for the well-off but not super-well-off in this day and age.
Anon
Here’s perspective on that: my father’s parents are/were wealthy (one is still alive). He is one of eight children; they are all between about 58 and 70 years old. Their parents paid for college, four years, and that was it: they lack the money to support eight children (and almost twenty grandchildren) for their entire lives.
As the ‘kids’ are all grown and about half are retired, and none of them has yet to inherit a cent, they’ve always needed to work for a living. Whatever money they do inherit will be a nice sum to help with retirement, provided they aren’t spendthrifts. The wolf will be kept from the door, but it will not be life changing and long-term care could eat through all of it.
On one hand, having parents who are able to start off on the right foot helps out a lot. But every single child is less successful than his or her father, and only by making sound decisions (six of the eight are married to their first spouse; one never married; one divorced twice; all work in stable jobs; very importantly, none of them are spendy) that they are able to help the next generation.
But there is someone else in my family, only child, who inherited a paid-off house (worth about $250k) and about the same amount in IRAs. Blew through all of it in about five years. People who are wealthy but not actually rich will make the distinction between having enough to be comfortable if you are sensible, and having enough that you can make a pile of horrible decisions and still be sitting pretty.
Monday
Yes, when I was typing my response I initially wrote euphemistically that my mom “helped” with down payments–which might suggest just pitching in. Then I corrected it: she paid the down payments. I think privileged people should be a lot more open/blunt about all their advantages, which is the reason I posted under my handle.
Again, book plug: The Meritocracy Trap.
Anonymous
I am the beneficiary of a trust. It will not pass until my mother dies. I have absolutely no idea how much money is in it and comments my mother has made make me believe she has a lot of control over that. It may just be that she has control over how it is invested and how much she takes out during her lifetime. (The comment was something about how the bankers were planning to make me very rich and she changed course, I assume so that she has access to more herself during her lifetime, but possibly just because she doesn’t think that is appropriate.) My sister and I are childless, so we will be the trust busters and will have access to the corpus. This affects me most in two ways. First, I do not have the worries about taking care of my mother in old age that others do. She will have enough. Second, I have fewer worries that I will have to take care of my sister, who has chosen to live near the poverty line her entire life, with no change in sight, in her old age. I try to ignore it for my own planning purposes, since I have absolutely no sense of what is in it and, as I said, my mother seems to have some control over that and she does not appear interested in making sure it is particularly robust at her passing. Since my grandfather died three years ago, I have received annual gifts from my mother, as has my sister. This has been extremely helpful in addressing my student loans, which I still carry in a large amount. I grew up knowing that my great grandfather was extremely wealthy and my grandfather was also wealthy as a result (and due to his own career, as well). I did not grow up wealthy and only really got some modest help with college and $20k for grad school (which cost well over $100k) from my grandfather. (Grandkids got $500 at Christmas in our late teens and 20s; birthday gifts were a dollar per year of age. My mother got annual gifts.) In my family, money really passes upon death. My grandfather died in his 90s. My mother was well into retirement at that point. My uncle retired just after.
Anon
I’ve always wondered how these complicated secret trusts work in divorce. Our courts require all sorts of financial disclosures including any trusts where you are the future beneficiary. Theoretically, my parents could have a trust for me that I don’t know about. If I was getting divorced would they have to disclose it? Whose obligation would it be if they lied to me? Does it matter if it is revocable or irrevocable? It is all so interesting. Even if my hypothetical ex couldn’t get a share of the money, the court would still want to know for alimony purposes and for distribution of the rest of the assets. If I was going to be all set in the future, our courts would award more than 50% to the other party. If money is fungible, it kind of makes a pre-nup about the trust less effective.
Anonymous
All good questions to which I have no answer. My mother and father did get a divorce, but I was too young to have been aware of any of the filings/disclosures/alimony awards. My sister and I are both unmarried and middle-aged at this point, so this may never be an issue for either of us.
Anonymous
I will add that I do think the money affected my mother and uncle’s choices. They actually grew up going to their grandfather’s Park-facing apartment in the UES where they were waited on by servants and given finger bowls at dinner. They went to private schools, had college paid for, and had their down payments made for them. Plus there were annual gifts for as long as I have been alive and perhaps even before. My mother went to grad school but barely used her degree. She married my father, who made decent money but not a lot and my stepfather who made much less. She has told me explicitly that she does not value hard work. In the last decade she has come around to internalizing that money does not equal merit. I think she just knew that she would be taken care of and then one day rich. She has expressed that she was frustrated that the money was doled out in dribs and drabs and that she thought it would have been nice to have a chunk earlier in life. (She’s not wrong about that!)
Though discussing money has been taboo, for a while after her father died, all she wanted to discuss was “my money.” My uncle worked extremely hard and built a large non-profit over decades. I think the annual gifts and knowledge that he, too, would one day inherit, drove his choices (and made those choices viable), as well. For me, it has always been “they have money, maybe there will be something at the end.” I have had a job or several since I was 13. Public school until college; work study and other jobs through college and was not invited home for summers; mostly loans for grad school but some help tied to going to a particular institution, which cost much more than the help covered. I think my sister is closer to my mother, and thinks she will eventually get her hands on lots of money and for now she can stick her hand out in a crisis, so having never made herself uncomfortable by working for more will be NBD in the end. AITA?!
Anon
This full financial aid kid can’t imagine.
Anyone want to comment on what worked and what didn’t relative to keeping the kids motivated? My kids aren’t growing up rich, but they’ve grown up with no worries about money and will have full in-state tuition, room, and board paid for by the bank of Mom and Dad. Very different than my experience!
How to stay humble and how to stay driven under these circumstances?
Anokha
My parents paid for my and my brother’s college educations, but we each had to take out loans for grad school. Not because our parents couldn’t afford it, but because they wanted us to have a stake in our education. I also don’t know if this is quite what you’re looking for, but for instance, my parents could have afforded a third car while we were in high school but didn’t buy one. Their theory was that if I wanted the privilege of driving myself to school (versus taking the bus), I had to wake up early to drive my dad to the bus stop so I could use his car.
Anon for this
My parents valued education above anything else, and constantly reinforced how where we are now is purely the result of my dad going to college on a partial scholarship and working his butt off to pay back his loans and save money. And always made us aware of the cost of everything.
Plus he was always stingy / cheap about stuff that didnt matter but was an every day occurrence, so it just built this culture of frugality-is-necessary-or-you-get-yelled-at. And we’d have trips to Europe every year and ski trips multiple time a winter, but it would always be stuff about like “why did you buy Green Giant canned green beans? the generic ones are fine and cost 10 cents less” or whatever.
I guess overall I’d say just be very transparent with your kids about money. Also, be willing to put your foot down and say no. He did that a lot which felt unfair at the time but was totally necessary
a-non
Since I’m from the outside looking in I think I look at my husband’s family with amazement sometimes. His uncle is just as wealthy as his dad, but spends a lot more money and is showier (but very very generous). He has 3 kids who all went to private out of state undergrad, and he is supporting 2 of them still. He bought 2 of them their first houses, at one point a few years ago they owned 7 properties that I knew of.
The difference in families has to do with how their parents spent money growing up. For instance, the grandfather gave his kids 10k each year after they graduated college. Uncle spent it each year (new car, etc), where my FIL saved it. My in laws never told my husband about his account until he graduated medical school and we got engaged. Because the money is his, he wants to see it grow vs his cousins don’t have accounts, but were given their houses. My in laws were much stricter than the uncle’s family. To be fair my husband kind of slacked off in high school and then really turned it around in college. My husband had to work in high school and in the summers during college for his spending money as well
Anon
Your kids are getting in-state school paid for, not Phillips Exeter for high school and then Boston College. You need to worry a lot less than you think you do.
Just be clear with them what the deal is and that there are functional limits on the amount of money you have. It’s enough to get them started, not to support them for their lives. It’s their job to provide for themselves as adults.
Anon
Well
Yes I know that. Though we could have provided for private college tuition, we prioritized our savings. I’m also a big proponent of public education at all levels.
I grew up in a rural, poor neighborhood. My parents almost lost the house a number of times. But the neighbors next door started a successful construction related business and did really well. They stayed in the same house and built their steel building warehouses in their acre backyard and had trucks and workers coming in and going all day. But they also built an in-ground pool, a tiki themed bar, and took vacations that weren’t camping. We all thought of them as our rich neighbors. Their kids inherited the business but had no appreciation for hard work, and frittered it all away in a single generation.
That’s why I have the concerns I have.
a-non
One of my old coworkers told his daughter he would give her 50% of any scholarships for college she earned. He had money set aside for her college tuition like you do, but wanted her to work hard, so she applied to as many scholarships as possible and he “saved” 50% but she had spending money for college that she “earned”. I loved that idea.
Anon
The people who have problems are the ones who inherit the money young or are told that there will be money or a business for them. Kids need to be raised to not expect an inheritance or various modes of help through their lives.
Anon
so i am not one of the posters above, but did have my undergrad education fully paid for and part of grad school and i now know i will inherit some money. my parents did not come from money, so their wealth came from their own hard work/frugality/luck. i think this is something my parents, particularly my dad struggled with. sometimes he would say things like during my high school summers he didn’t want me to work and wanted me to go away and do some summer program in europe because i have my whole life to work, or that i should pursue whatever i was passionate about (worst advice ever) and did not like talking about money, but then would turn around and say things to my sibling and i that we were spoiled and ungrateful and he didn’t have any of this when he was young. i think part of it was that he was conflicted himself as to how much he wanted to give to us. most of our family friends had more money than we did, went on fancier vacations than we did, so in some ways i knew i had a lot more than my parents, but less than all these other people. find a way to talk about it, without it being guilt inducing to your child. talk about tradeoffs with different career paths and how you will need a certain amount of money to afford certain things. talk about budgeting. also, have these conversations not in emotionally charged moments or as part of arguments about something else.
Anon
This sounds a lot like how I grew up – I think the most important thing is that my parents provided a “safety net” (letting me take unpaid internships, lower paying jobs, etc), but they also always attached a requirement – for instance, in high school, they would happily pay for social activities + a car IF and ONLY IF we were occupied enough by internships/productive activities to negate the need for a summer job. I chose that path – my brother opted for the summer job, and both were valid and reinforced that the money doesn’t just show up.
Ribena
Yes, you’ve expressed what I tried to and got sidetracked. I always knew that my parents would support me as long as I stayed in education. We split the costs of me learning to drive and I had use of my parents’ car. My living costs at university were covered but not enough to live the high life – although my mum sent me an extra £50 a month in my final year so I could afford to eat on campus more when I was living in the library!
I would have been supported to do an unpaid internship the summer after my first year of university had I been able to get one – I couldn’t, so worked at McDonalds instead.
anon
So I have a trust fund that I did not know about until my 18th birthday. My parents are immigrants that stressed education, education, education above all else. I understood that we were comfortable to not worry about food and we did a lot of charity and service work, but on the other hand given that we went to private schools, we were also around kids that were super rich. My parents took us on a European vacation once a year and again, we attended private schools, but other than that, they were very frugal with respect to spending money on what they considered “not essential.” (Read, never EVER bought something full price – even if it was at Old Navy, which was “too much.”)
By the time I learned about the trust fund, I was already a straight-A student ready to go to college, which while private, I also got a scholarship at. (Same for law school.) It was stressed not to spend it on frivolous things even though it was mine. While a lot of money, I understood compound math that it wasn’t enough to never have to work. It was always invested and went untouched until I used some to buy my first home. The trust, as well as my parents’ assistance, has been an ENORMOUS step up in life. I have never had student loans and because I was raised comfortably but frugally, investing and compound interest have seen it grow because I never touched it. Add to it that I have had high-paying jobs and it has just grown.
As has been pointed out, wealth is relative. We are in the 1% but through work I know billionaires and hundred-millionaires. How their kids grow up depends on a lot of factors, like when the parents actually acquired the money. For example, I am thinking of someone worth $600MM but only when they sold the business recently in their 70s. Their kids are grown with kids of their own. So while their kids grew up comfortably and got a lot of assistance with college, weddings, first homes, etc., they didn’t grow up with the insane wealth and pursued careers for themselves. That generation is largely plugged into a family office structure that focuses on gift-giving to charitable causes and preserving/building the wealth for future generations and future gift-giving.
Ribena
I wish I knew. I grew up in a situation similar to the grandchild of Holocaust survivors above in that my family’s money was all built through education in the 1950s and 60s. My parents’ generation are almost all in well paid upper middle class jobs and have been very lucky with house price rises. My parents paid my university living costs (and tuition loans are just extra tax here) and passed on £30k from the sale of my grandfather’s house when he died so that I could buy a flat – I’m paying the £190k mortgage myself though.
My attitude to money is very very different from my younger brother – I don’t know if it’s because (for example) I remember when we would drive hours instead of taking a one hour flight, or when we would do that flight on EasyJet, whereas now my parents would do that same flight on a legacy flag carrier, or if it’s just a personality thing.
The thing that has always driven my life decisions is a desire to be self sufficient. I graduated from my Bachelors degree and went straight to work in a professional job that wasn’t my life’s ambition but paid for me to live comfortably in a city (although not the VHCOL city most people from where I grew up move to) and led to an even better job which allowed me to buy a flat. I’m now in a great job which is incredibly fulfilling but it’s a totally different path than if I’d followed my dreams, which would have involved multiple badly- or unpaid internships in that VHCOL city.
(Not anon because there are so few U.K. posters here that the use of £ symbols plus the content probably tells you it’s me anyway).
LaurenB
My kids knew that having college paid for was an incredible, incredible gift and they have expressed how lucky they are to have that. Their “payment” was to study hard, take advantage of their opportunities. They do not know that my husband and I plan to pay for their (eventual) children’s college educations. They’ll find that out if and when they start having said children.
I have a friend whose brother is a multimillionaire whose name you would all know. I know his children. They are as down to earth as it gets, and very charitable. I really think it’s just how individual families live their values and lifestyle.
Anon
I agree. I admire some people I’ve known who were born into wealth and who I feel have truly made the most of seemingly boundless opportunity. Maybe it’s more that wealth magnifies character of whatever kind.
Anon
I agree with this. There are rich people who were probably selfish jerks all along and the money just magnifies it and then there are rich people who are down-to-earth and fun and generous. I know a guy who founded a very well-regarded biotech company (and has now founded a second one), but you’d never know he’s rich by looking at him. He wears old jeans and T-shirts he gets from tourist shops and has a modest (although nice) house and is friendly to everyone. You might get an inkling that he’s well-off when you learn he takes international ski trips, but even then, it’s just not obvious that he’s sitting on millions.
Anon
I also feel somewhat defensive of people who don’t have to work for a living, because I’ve seen people make great use of their time (from things like translating neglected important works of literature and philosophy to things like running a half way home with a really good community reputation).
Anonymous
I don’t know. I always knew that I would go to college and it would be paid for, and by the same note, I always knew that I would be considered a failure if I didn’t do the same for my children.
Anon
I think of myself as having “family money” even though I don’t have a trust fund. My parents paid $250k for my undergrad education at a top school and contributed towards grad school, they have paid to take my family on vacations as an adult, they are putting aside money for my kids’ college funds and I will likely inherit several million dollars when they die. Most importantly, they’re a safety net. They wouldn’t keep me in a life of luxury if I lost my job but they would ensure that my family and I would always have a roof over our heads and food on the table, etc. It’s different than having a trust fund I’m sure, and they don’t pay my day-to-day expenses, but I know have a level of financial security that most people without wealthy parents don’t.
LaurenB
My ILs set up a trust for all their grandchildren — I don’t know the exact amount (nor is it really my business), but from offhand comments, I estimate it is in the neighborhood of $8 MM to be split 5 ways. My children do not know of its existence; they’ll find out when FIL dies (MIL is already deceased) and we hope that doesn’t happen for a long, long time. I don’t think it’s going to change their lives dramatically — it’s security money, enabling them not to have to worry if there are unexpected medical needs or things of that nature. My FIL came from a modest background and worked his tail off for that money; I don’t begrudge him a bit for having it, and I’m perfectly fine having it skip my husband and go to the grandchildren. I saw something recently about how “trust fund babies” should just pay for their friends’ X, Y and Z, and I think one thing that people who are not in the world don’t understand is that trust fund does not equal “has a lot of cash on hand to do fun things with.” It’s a set-it-and-forget-it thing.
Anon
Re: your last sentence, it can go both ways, but there is definitely a lot of misunderstanding. I have two friends who are sisters who have both inherited the same amount of money from their late mother’s estate and one is using it to support her frugal lifestyle (since she works in a low-paying job and truly needs it for expenses) and the other is investing it. There is tension between them because Sister A says “well Sister B shouldn’t complain about ___ costing a lot since she’s sitting on all that money.” She’s mostly just defensive about using her own money for income rather than wealth-building, but it’s definitely an issue between them.
CPA Lady
One side of my family had money that was pretty much used up with my parents’ generation and the other didn’t. I have a variety of family artifacts (a couple sets of sterling flatware, antique china, diamonds and other jewelry) from the rich side of the family. I also had my private college paid for almost entirely. Beyond that I’ve been pretty much on my own, financially. Which I like.
I specialize in trust, estate, gift, and high net worth individual taxation at work, and I have to say…. unless the family is very proactive and intentional, by the second or third generation of trust fund money (generally speaking) everyone who is not a natural self-starter is miserable. It is actually terrible to never have to work for anything. It robs you of a certain kind of self-worth.
Different families put different stipulations on trust distributions and that matters too. The worst situations are ones with a lax trustee (the person in charge of dispensing the money) and a ton of money and the beneficiary just takes out whatever they want whenever they want.
Among the trust fund families that I’ve seen that are generally well-adjusted (defined here as most family members are employed and not constantly in and out of rehab), one main thing they seem to do is have open lines of communication about the trust financial situation and any related expectations. Usually there will be an annual family meeting so everyone is on the same page. One family I’ve worked with is very charitably inclined, and they have had a person from a charitable organization that they support come in and give a presentation at the family meeting. Another family I’ve worked with matches trust distributions to earned income, so if you want to slack off and lie around the beach and do nothing, you get nothing. Some families set up the trusts so you can only start getting the money at a certain age so you “have” to work for a number of years. Lots of different ways to organize the trust. And a lot goes into picking a good trustee.
Anonymous
Such good advice. My husband’s family trust has had 6 beneficiaries and only two have a good work ethic. Thankfully my husband is one of them, but it’s due not to that side of the family but to his other parent and stepparent providing good guidance – setting budgets, encouraging part time work to pay for his hobbies, emphasizing and rewarding educational effort, etc.
Anon Friend
I have a good friend who inherited something in the neighborhood of $35 million – starting at 18 (a minimal amount to pay for college), another amount when she graduated from college, when she turned 25, and the last when she turned 30 (It was really complicated becaues of both her parents’ wills and the court order regarding the settlement of the wrongful death case) It arose from fairly tragic circumstances. Both of her parents were killed when she was young in an auto accident. They both had life insurance (a lot), the company who employed the other driver had a lot of insurance that paid out, and then she inherited the majority of her grandfather’s estate when he passed. Her grandmother did not spend any of her inheritance to support her (she did not need it) so it just grew and grew (the magic of compound interest). Her trustees were relatively generous when she was in college (let her live alone in a nice one-BR apartment and buy a new car after her freshman year) but certainly did not encourage her to live lavishly.
She turned out to be a lovely, kind, generous person who neither fritters her money away on ridiculous yachts nor gives it away to “friends”. The biggest issue it has caused in her life is that she got burned (emotionally) by some people who were cozying up to her because they found out she had money and now she is a bit suspicious of new friends. It ended a relationship when she was in college (he wanted her to give it all away to charity). In terms of “motivation” she was a really good student, has an advance degree in something completely impractical and now works at a job she loves that pays a pittance. She married someone else with money (earned not inherited) and they live a very nice life – but you would never guess their net worth from their lifestyle.
I am not sure how to explain the fact that this money did not ruin her life except that her grandmother raised her in a nice house in a nice neighborhood but not excessive (so annual trip abroad but public schools and limited allowance), she fell in love with an academic discipline early and needed to get good grades to get the job she wanted, or just her personality. She makes a point of living off the income minus inflation – partly she says so that she has some self-imposed limit on her spending.
She does collect first editions and has spent a lot of money on that – but that is her one big indulgence!
anon
This has been fascinating – thank you, everyone for sharing!
Coach Laura
True story – about 30 years ago, one of my coworkers said “I think I’m going to start a foundation with the money I’m inheriting.” So I asked a bit more. She was going to start a foundation for education and run it. How much? $25Million inheritance. That was a staggering amount then, smaller now but still immense. Apparently, her last name was a clue and it was a multinational company name everyone would know. I just assumed it was a common name.
I’m now used to people that I know with family money.
Another anon for this
Loving this thread! I come from the level of wealth where college got paid for (but exhausted the college fund) and I will have an inheritance, but nowhere near the level that I would be considered wealthy and not enough for me to retire early. More at the “Will actually be able to retire comfortably level” so long as I continue to work/save until a normal retirement age. Random thoughts:
–People who rely on the expectation of an inheritance end up on Dateline. Either they kill someone or someone kills them. Knowing the money will come is a great safety net, but living as if I won’t get it means I can tell anyone (my parents) to f* off if I want to.
–College without loans is HUGE. It gave me a real heads up on being able to save for all the other things I wanted in life.
–The presence of family money–even if you don’t use it–is also huge. While living off my student stipends (for merit), I knew that if something bad happened, such as an expensive medical emergency, I could ultimately go running to family for help.
–As an adult, the good financial habits I adopted while young have really served me well. No, I didn’t take international vacations twice a year like my friends, but I don’t have to worry about things like a major car repair or medical expense or being able to retire. I also have more employment freedom because money=options. Now, with the power of compound interest and steady investing, I just need to coast until retirement.
–Those friends who are now regretting not having developed good financial habits at a young age–despite making high salaries in a VHCOL area–are starting to not have fun. They have to put up with undesirable employment situations or cut back on vacations and other spending because it’s no longer fun not to have a retirement funds or money saved for kids’ college. They’re pressuring their parents to fund things for them and their kids. That’s not a sustainable level of spending.
I have never regretted being the grasshopper and not the ant, but I know I could only do so because I was very, very lucky in life. I’m going to live a very comfortable but not extravagant life, and whatever is leftover goes to charity. Plus regular charitable contributions until then.
Anon
I was financially responsible and REALLY wish I had traveled more. My health has just not held out the way I hoped it would. But it has also cost me enough money that I don’t live all that comfortably, so I guess that probably shades my perspective.
SF in House
Posting late, but with an interesting story. My grandparents had quite a bit of money (not sure how much, but supported homes in Europe and the Caribbean). My grandfather, by all accounts, was a sexist jerk. He refused to pay for college for my mom and aunt (his only children). They went to college any way on work study, which meant they were looked down upon, just after WWII. My grandfather left money to both daughters in trust. My 93 year old mother still has to petition the trustee for disbursements! The trustee is reasonable and has approved disbursements for each of my sisters. I have been fortunate enough to never have to ask. My generation is six females and one male. My grandfather left money in trust for my male cousin to support him while he was getting his education — it was so loosely worded that he took 12 years to get his undergraduate degree.
I expect that everything my mother inherited will be gone by the time she dies.
Yet another pandemic homeschooling Q
Our schools are remote for now. We have heard that there will be some “synchronous” learning and some “asynchronous” learning (taped lectures? assignments to watch Khan Academy videos? who knows?).
I have a middle schooler and elementary schooler, at different schools, and with different schedules. And work FT.
I hope that they understand that a lot has been offloaded onto parents who will give it a good try, but don’t have the bandwidth for perfection. And that the adopt maybe a “high pass / pass / fail” mindset for many things (like parent has one household lunchtime and stuff needs to take turns yielding with grace to other things, like a parent’s need earn a living and be on calls vs always being on-call for troubleshooting a buggy chomebook).
School starts in 2 weeks and we don’t even have guidance for what times during the day “school” “starts” or has synchronous learning (probably the more important, as it seems to be direct instruction with a live teacher vs passive learning), to help arrange for work coverage, teen sitters, adult tutors, etc. Do any of you have any guidance on this? I realize that high school kids applying to college probably need/want actual grades. But our online experience was so dismal last spring that I am not about to jeopardize my job for it (and yet don’t want my kids to fail or miss any meaningful learning opportunities this year). Ugh.
Anonymous
What’s the question? None of us know what your school is going to require.
Anonymous
Are schools at least saying, especially to working parents, “We know we’ve put a lot on you this year; please do your best (or give it a good try) and we promise not to take it out on your kid.”
Or am I going to be sending e-mails in to school “Janie’s homework didn’t send b/c of some glitch and I was on a work call with a nasty “DO NOT DISTURB” sign on my door and she just gave up after half an hour of trying.”
Anonymous
There is no answer about what “schools” do. Literally every one is different.
Airplane.
I don’t think “schools” are a monolith, this approach is going to be very dependent on your school and even your kid’s specific teacher. My teacher friends (even ones at the same school!) have varying approaches to this. One set of teachers thinks “well, what matters most is the student’s learning and progress, parents have to just deal with it, it’s your kid and the end of the day and I have a job to do to prepare them for state testing, getting them to pass get to the next grade level, etc.” whereas another teacher friend is saying “we get that parents have it hard, we will try to minimize impact on the kid if it’s parental issue with childcare or technology.” I don’t think it’s fair to put it on teachers to “not to take it out on your kid.”
Anonymous
I think that if schools are relying on the parents to make homeschooling happen, they ought to respect that the parent is often juggling a FT job and multiple kids (and being the homeschool cafeteria and janitor). Like if the parent says “today we go on a hike and call it gym”, they can make up asynchronous work and get an excused absence for zooms.
Alternatively, if I get sick, I want to call in and say to send a sub or my kids won’t be homeschooling until I am better (i.e., if COVID runs through our house or a GI bug or the regular flu). [Spouse is an essential worker, so I am on my own here unless I actually get COVID, in which case he will have to quarantine and will be home then. If I’m a long-hauler, pray for us all.]
anon
We still have no idea what the “school day” will look like beyond that we’re 100% distance learning, but at least our school has made a statement that they recognize it will be a strain on working parents. It probably won’t make things one bit easier but it felt a little validating, so there’s that. My experience in spring was that my kids’ teachers were pretty understanding but I think they were required to “check in” when work didn’t get done, even though they understood why and weren’t mad about it. It was a little annoying but they’re just doing their jobs.
Also, I read this in a FB comment so please don’t flame me, but I saw a parent say they will do their best to help facilitate online learning but if, at the end of the day, their kid didn’t get through everything for the day, they’re not above just filling out the last worksheet or whatever themselves so their kid can be counted “present” for that day and the school can keep its attendance-based funding. I wouldn’t do this for older kids where grades actually matter (that seems wrong) but, for young elementary kids where it’s mainly to be counted for attendance, that…had not occurred to me. Not saying I’ll do it but having that in my back pocket just felt like a little weight had been lifted (I have two under 3rd grade w/ adhd so spring was rough).
In general and especially for older kids, I really hope they don’t take it out on the kids. Certainly colleges are going to be aware of this issue down the line so I’d expect that will be taken into account for years of GPAs to come.
Anon
I’d post this to the Moms site for more replies.
Anon
Can you just not with this? It’s ok to post kid-related questions to regular C- r e t t e.
Anon
+1
Anon
One option is to have the middle schooler do the virtual learning and have your elementary student do home school instead that way you control the curriculum and time dedicated to it. I remember reading articles that elementary kids do not need a lot of hours per day of actual instruction. The rest is fluff where they could watch educational videos or just play.
Anonymous
As the mom of a ninth-grader, I’d argue that in normal times even middle school is mostly fluff, with the possible exception of math and foreign language (but those move so slowly in middle school that most kids could easily go twice as fast). You could probably do better with a combination of homeschooling and individual on-line courses.
Anonymous
The only reason we haven’t gone to an online charter or officially home school is that my kids are at magnet schools and I don’t want to lose those slots should we ever go back (even Fall 2021). I am praying (not religious, but I pray about this) that our low SES school district means that the allowances made for the ESL, no-computer, no-wifi, no parents at home kids are generally made (so no one cracks down on my kids b/c theoretically I could have hired a FT nanny to watch them flail at remote learning). It’s a gamble, but I am betting that the district won’t care much (but I also don’t want them to be kicked out of their programs either). They s*cked at distance learning this spring and it was completely disruptive (like I’d be on a work call and get an e-mail from the teacher with new zoom dial-in instructions for something starting in 5 minutes).
Anon
Are your kids old enough where you could set up email addresses for them just for school stuff and then they would get notifications on their device (laptop/tablet) when those emails came in? Kids can be incredibly tech savvy and learn how to shop on mom’s phone on Amazon way too quickly.
Anonymous
I wish! In the spring, we got info via Remind App, text, e-mail from the room mom to my work e-mail, e-mail from the teacher, and via calendar appointments. There was no way to keep on track of it, especially for two kids. Chromebooks are set up for a school e-mail that isn’t configured to let in outside e-mails and that the teachers don’t use for communicating with students (everything is routed through parents).
Lord help us all.
Anon
is anyone familiar with the technicalities of the quarantine rules in NY/NJ if you come from a state like FL? If we were to travel from FL to NJ to stay with family, is the family we are staying with subject to the quarantine rules or only us?
Note: We have zero intention of traveling from FL to NJ with our toddlers and think it would be irresponsible to do so, but DH and I are trying to find a way to get MIL off our backs and unfortunately she won’t care too much about the spirit of the rule
Anonymous
Only you. You’ll just have to have husband adult harder and say no! Thanks for being safe!!
Anonymous
Or, like, where do you quarantine? A hotel? With your parents (mine are elderly and would NOT want me with them for 14 days)? All I can think of is an RV or a tent.
Not planning a trip, but I have elderly parents who did OK with the hurricane and have a generator (and power today), but it is possible that I could need to make an emergency trip before this whole COVID thing is over. I am 8 hours away and am actually the nearest family member (could fly to PA and perhaps stay at an empty-ish hotel near the ABE airport).
OP
my MIL would happily have us come and stay with her, but we do not want to get on a plane right now and are also not comfortable with my inlaws level of social distancing and my twenty something BIL is currently staying with them and is very much out and about
Cat
Can you clarify who would be going where? I’m having trouble following who would be going from FL to NJ in this hypo and the situation upon arrival in NJ.
Like- is MIL with you in FL, and needs to leave and stay with another relative in NJ?
OP
MIL lives in NJ and is currently in NJ and would like us (me, DH, two kids) to come visit her and FIL in NJ
Cat
in any event, the spirit of the rule is – if you are traveling from a ‘hot’ state, take precautions to ensure you are not the source of community spread upon arrival.
To me, that means of course the travelers themselves isolate. Whether the ‘host’ family has to isolate is an interesting question, because the travelers could be presymptomatic themselves, and pass Covid to the ‘host’ family unknowingly.
Safest way is all of you quarantine for two weeks (if travelers haven’t developed symptoms by then, obviously didn’t bring Covid with, and couldn’t have infected ‘host’ family).
Anonymous
Where do you quarantine? A hotel? Or the relatives you are visiting with (who may be vulunerable or affectionate, each is bad before 14 days have passed with you onsite)?
Cat
So the rule literally says “Travelers and residents returning from impacted states should self-quarantine at their home, a hotel, or other temporary lodging. Individuals should only leave the place of self-quarantine to seek medical care/treatment or to obtain food and other essential items.”
So, safest and most compliant possible is a hotel or Airbnb or wherever it is you can order in food and stay by yourself.
Less safe is staying with a host family or friend, because you might spread it to them. But if (1) they agree to isolate with you, the community overall is safer, and (2) if you try to isolate yourselves as best as possible – i.e., literally having a place to sleep but not sharing bathrooms or kitchen time – it’s safer.
Less safe than that is staying with a host family or friend, where (1) they don’t isolate with you, and (2) you don’t isolate within the home.
If MIL and BIL are not willing to “bubble” with you for 2 weeks then I wouldn’t go.
Cat
Oh wait, I did some digging. Here are the FAQ’s.
https://nj.gov/health/cd/documents/topics/NCOV/Travel_advisoryFAQs_6-25-2020.pdf
“Out of state visitors from impacted states are encouraged to postpone travel. If it is not possible to
delay travel, individuals are encouraged to self-quarantine in the home where they live or are staying in
New Jersey. It is not necessary that other household members who did not travel from an impacted
state self-quarantine.”
So unfortunately you can’t tell MIL or BIL that the rules require they stay home… but I think it’s a good idea to postpone anyway.
Anon
I agree with Cat. I think you can quarantine basically anywhere, but if you are quarantining at her house then the quarantine extends to her. I mean, isn’t that the whole point? You’re quarantining because you might have it but are not yet diagnosed. If you go stay at her house for the 14 day quarantine but MIL and BIL are out and about, the whole point of your quarantine is rendered pointless since you could be passing it to them.
Anonymous
If you are staying with people that is not quarantine! It means you rent a house to isolate in.
Anon
I realize pure quarantine is not staying at someone else’s house. But, if the path to getting out of going is to say, hey MIL, if we go and stay with you you’re going to have to quarantine right along side us (along with BIL), maybe that’s her out.
Anon
The spirit of the rule is don’t travel unless there is a family emergency or other very compelling reason to do so.
Anonymous
You’re not going to win this argument based on what the rule says. You’re trying to fight emotion with logic, and that just doesn’t work. Appeal to emotion – we’re scared to expose our children by getting on a plane or driving a very long distance. We’re scared that BIL is exposing himself and will expose us and our kids if we visit. We’re scared that we’ve somehow been exposed and we will infect you. We would never forgive ourselves if we killed you. We love you and can’t risk ourselves our kids or you.
Anonymous
Your husband (her son) needs to tell her the truth. Mom, we think it’s irresponsible for us to risk bringing the virus from Florida to NJ. Aside from that, we’re not comfortable with the precautions you and Brother are taking, and we don’t want to risk catching it on a plane either. We miss you all, but we are staying home for now.
Anonymous
Yeah, and also emphasize that you don’t want to get your family or hers sick (from the exposure you have while traveling, etc).
Anonymous
Look into the “broken record” method of saying no for help declining MILs invite.
Anon
For starters you can tell her that BIL would need to quarantine for 2 weeks prior to your stay and during your stay, no exceptions. I suspect this will absolutely not happen so you will be off the hook.
Anon
is anyone familiar with the technicalities on the quarantine rules in NY/NJ? If we travel from FL to stay with family in NJ, does the family we are staying with have to quarantine or just us?
Note: we have zero intention of traveling to NJ from FL with our toddlers, but trying to get MIL off our backs and unfortunately she won’t really care about the spirit of the rule
Skirts
I’m hoping someone can help me figure out how to search for something like this…basically, I want the skirt version of sweatpants. I think it’s something at least below knee length, flowy and wide and super comfy. I actually don’t think I want it in sweatpants fabric because that would be too hot, but I don’t know, maybe linen or something? I want something I can throw on in the morning and sit in all day in the summer. Any ideas?
Carmen Sandiego
Lou & Grey has some midi and maxi skirts that are in jersey material. I have a couple of their jersey dresses, and they’re really soft.
Lyssa
Search Amazon for “yoga skirt” – they have some in a jersey-like material and some have a foldover waist like yoga pants do. I have a few that were dirt cheap, are longish and flowy, and are extremely comfortable. Pretty much all I wear at home in summer.
Anon
I have this skirt in olive green that sounds like what you are looking for: https://www.etsy.com/listing/776516237/linen-skirt-aurora-high-waist-skirt?ref=shop_home_active_4&pro=1&frs=1
Downside is that these clothes are made to order and shipped from Europe, so if you order now, you won’t get it for about a month.
Ribena
A dress rather than skirt, but I have a couple of the Amelie dress from Boden and they fill this niche for me.
NYCer
Check out the “nap dress” from Hill House Home.
Anon
Do you have a hippie shop near you? One that sells incense, crystals, maybe imported throw rugs from India? They will have below knee to ankle length full skirts made of beautiful cottons and rayons. My teen daughter wears these all the time.
NY CPA
I know I’ve mentioned it a few times this summer but this jersey LLBean dress is 100% my equivalent of fancy pajamas this summer. And its available in plus size and petite.
https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/122071?page=women-s-summer-knit-dress-short-sleeve-print&bc=12-27-506213&feat=506213-GN3&csp=f&pos=1
Anon
The Patagonia Bandha dress. I like the longer length better than the shorter one currently sold (you can pick them up on Poshmark or Ebay pretty cheaply). It’s indestructible, can be dressed up within reason, or can be worn to clean house/muck around in the yard.
Anon
FLAX linen skirts and dresses. This brand has been around for decades. Exactly what you described: linen “sweat” skirts and dresses.
Anon
I’ll be starting a new job (big 4 accounting firm) later this year, and it’s looking increasingly like onboarding will take place remotely. Any advice for remote onboarding? It seems a little daunting to learn the people and the culture and the work without being face to face!
Anon
When I onboarded with a Big 4 (tax) in late 2015, it was entirely computer-based trainings. Literally a week of sitting at my desk clicking through 40 hours of powerpoints and then taking quizzes. I remember thinking it was so weird that the onboarding was so thorough that no one from my team even came to speak to me during that week – one person stopped by my desk on my first day to say hello, but there was no expectation that I’d do anything that week other than the trainings.
Big 4 life is perfectly suited to remote work. It’s all computer work anyways.
For learning the team, I’d do Zoom meetings with individual teammates, and otherwise staying quiet until you learn the lay of the land.
anonchicago
I work for a Big 4. In normal years, there’s a week or two of in person onboarding then hours of online compliance training as mentioned below. This year, all of that has been virtual for interns and new hires, and my understanding is that in person sessions are now held over Zoom with lots of group breakouts. It sounds exhausting, but we are perfectly able to work remotely seeing as how we’re at client sites most of the time.
My biggest piece of advice is to be proactive and eager. It’s easy to slip and wait for work to be handed to you when you’re remote (I’m even struggling with this now), so ask questions, be engaged in meetings (when appropriate), volunteer to handle tasks, and ask for feedback on your work regularly at the beginning. Good luck!
Anokha
Any recommendations for a desk chair that is going to live in our bedroom? I tucked the Josie desk into a corner of my bedroom but now I need a chair.
HW
I bought the Dome Armless Swivel Chair from Target for my bedroom desk. I wanted a swivel but no wheels because I thought it looked a bit nicer.
Anokha
That’s really pretty! Does not having armrests make a difference or is it ok?
HW
I really hadn’t thought about the lack of arm rests. I think it’s been fine!
Anonymous
Thanks for this rec! I need a more comfortable chair with no wheels to damage the floor. I will be measuring to see if this is an answer.
Anonymous
Around how long does it usually take to find a good in-house position? I was told 6 months – a year, but I expect COVID will push that timeline out now, right? I know I’m fortunate to have my biglaw job but I absolutely hate it and started actively looking for an in-house job right before the world shut down. The result is that I’ve now been stuck in a job that I hate and have completely checked out of for 5 months. I’ve been refusing to work weekends because I need a break for my mental health, and have been mostly unavailable in the evenings – the main reason I am trying to leave biglaw is that I am not interested in working more than 9-5 M-F anymore. I absolutely can’t stand the people I work with, especially certain partners who I can tell are (reasonably, given my lack of availability) pissed off at me and who harass me with emails daily as if that is going to motivate me to do anything but further withdraw. It’s at a point where I have stopped responding to certain emails pressuring me and just send the work when I am finished it. I will say that I haven’t missed a single deadline and I am still doing excellent work, just not exactly when they want me to be doing it – they treat everything as urgent when it is not and want me to be staying up late glued to my desk every day, which I am no longer willing to do. The way things are is not sustainable right now and I’m really hoping a position comes up soon, but I’m not sure how long I can continue to bide my time like this before there are repercussions.
In-House in Houston
I work in-house and I do work more than 9-5, and I’d caution you not to tell any GC or in-house person that you want to leave biglaw b/c you don’t want to work more than 9-5 anymore. That will really turn them off. In-house jobs are great, but we work hard. Some days/periods of time might be easier than others, but everyone in my legal department works more than 9-5.
Cat
oh, very true. Even in-house, while a normal week is about 10-hour days, if a major deal is going on, it’ll be intense. And in some ways more so than firm life because rather than being the outside legal expert, you will be herding input from 7 different groups into one place.
Anonymous
OP Here – yes, of course I would never say that to anyone beyond this board! I’m more than happy to work hard, I just don’t want to do it beyond working hours because that is when I live my life. There are many other reasons I want to go in-house that I haven’t described above. I do have several friends who work in-house in my city and they don’t work more than 9-5 or 9-6 (they work in-house at banks), so I’m gearing my search towards jobs that will allow me to work similar hours they do.
Anon
“I haven’t missed a single deadline and I am still doing excellent work, just not exactly when they want me to be doing it – they treat everything as urgent when it is not and want me to be staying up late glued to my desk every day, which I am no longer willing to do.”
I would focus on this aspect of it. You aren’t missing deadlines; you do good work; you know what is urgent and what is not urgent. Say something about being here to produce great legal work and provide outstanding support to the team, not to play mind games.
Anon
+2 I’m not in house but I have close friends who are and they work 50-60 hour weeks quite often. I work 9-5 (or less) but I am in state government and the pay shows it.
Anon
Not necessarily true for all legal jobs in state government—I work at least 50 hours per week all the time, upwards of 60 during peak times. My governmental client expects coverage pretty much 24/7, and I regularly am taking calls at 11 PM and then again by 7 AM. AND I still get paid like I work for State government….
Cat
reality check – if you continue with current behavior, you’ll be out of Biglaw one way or the other.
hiring – unpredictable. is your experience in demand? (privacy as far as work from home and technology? labor as far as managing remote workforce and return to work? or on ice due to unpredictable economy?)
Anonymous
OP here – thanks, it’s not really a “reality check” as I’m fully aware of that. Hence asking how long I can continue this way. I’ve set boundaries that are not commensurate with a job in biglaw and so I’ll be out one way or the other.
I’ve got pretty broad experience and am very in demand right now (currently doing insolvency litigation which is insane right now, but my background is in securities and corporate-commercial litigation). I also know it’s harder for litigators to go in-house than those who do more solicitor-type work, but I do have some experience on that side of things as well.
Anokha
It took me 6 months to find my in-house gig (former litigator), back in 2013. These days, friends are having a harder time with companies on hiring freezes due to the global pandemic.
HW
What about the SEC? It’ll be a pay cut but government tends to have good work life balance.
Anon
I worked in a toxic environment, the purpose of which was to be toxic (it was a #metoo situation where I was treated one way and my male colleagues were treated a different way). The constant harassment of fake deadlines, emails asking where things were, and more fake deadlines definitely created a lot of bad habits that are hard to break years later. Therapy helps and I really recommend talking to someone who can give you a script to use when you are asked for the status of something. It will help a lot, I promise, and will hopefully help you to retain your job until you find another one.
Anon
What you really don’t want though is to get fired and when your new employer calls for background check they get asked the question “would you rehire this candidate” and they get the answer “no”. Why are you burning bridges? It is easy enough to start slowly refusing some projects to control your work flow schedule rather than just…not working nights and weekends.
Anon
This. Especially because a lot of big firms have already done layoffs, I’d say there is much more cover for biglaw firms to fire associates on shorter timelines than previously. I’d cut whatever time you think associates used to have to slack off before being fired in half in light of that. Taking on less work will give you more free time even if you still have to work nights/weekends. Depending on your firm, more than a few weeks of that behavior would get you fired almost immediately absent some really good explanation.
Airplane.
If I recall correctly, it took my 4 months between cold application online and offer accepted, then another 3 weeks before my start date. Depending on industry some in-house departments are on a hiring freeze as a cost center, and others are continuing to hire or have opened more positions based on supporting the business’s handling and response to covid. The only good thing I’ve seen is that everyone is doing remote start so if you wanted to move cities to accept an in-house job you have a lot of room to start work remotely and handle selling your house/buying or renting in your new city and anything else about your move on a slower more flexible scedule than in pre-covid times.
Anonymous
If you’ve made your money and don’t need your biglaw job, carry on. But if you do need the money or need to stay employed until you get the next offer, I’d consider what you’re doing. Refusing to work nights and weekends and not responding to emails and only sending work when you want to send it not when people want it are pretty much the road to getting told at your next review that you’re not making the grade by which time while they’ll say you can fix it, reality is they’ve already made the decision that you’re out and then a few months later, you’re out the door. Especially right now when biglaw is looking to cut cost, they will absolutely get rid of an associate with an attitude.
As for how long it’ll take to go in house, IDK why you think 6 months. Sure that can happen but I also know super talented people who’ve been looking for 2+ years. It depends on your speciality etc. But keep in mind that in house is a cost center for all companies; most companies are either bringing in less revenue or are uncertain about revenue inflow for the rest of this year — they aren’t looking to expand their cost centers unless they really need to — like they need to bring a labor lawyer on board to make sure their procedures for bringing people back to the office and not getting sued are solid etc.
Anonymous
Don’t assume the usual big law leisurely exit ramp is available to you. Lots of firms do RIFs during downturns, and if you are not contributing in a manner that justifies your salary you will go on the list for a quick exit. I would dial it up enough to keep your job while you look for another. In house legal departments
will likely have head count freeze or reduction targets as well, so this is not a great time to be looking, unless there are a corporate role relating to restructuring that you could fill.
Anon
This – a lot of firms already are laying off people so there’s less worry about negative hiring/recruiting blowback from firing people. Also many firms already have give mandates to do layoffs and practice heads may already be making potential lists for that.
Anon
A 9-5 schedule is not realistic for the majority of in house positions. I have been in house my entire career – first at at a Fortune 100, now at a smaller private company. It’s fair if you want a lighter schedule, but please do not expect a 9-5 schedule. It’s totally unrealistic.
Anonymous
OP Here – I think I should have worded my post differently as everyone is getting hung up on the 9-5 part. What the issue is, broadly put, is the expectation of being available at all times outside of those hours. Of course there are going to be times when I will work more then 9-5 but I want those times to be the exception, not the norm or the expectation.
Anon
Yeah, I still don’t think you have a good grasp on in house workloads. It won’t be 60 hours a week, but it won’t be 40 either. Please don’t go in with those expectations because you will end up dumping work on your already overworked colleagues.
CountC
+1 I don’t do it bc I am still relatively junior and I also have been able to set boundaries from day 1, but my boss works on all of his vacations, nights, and weekends, and my more senior colleauges work a lot outside of normal business hours. I work at least 10 hours each day, although I have only had to work nights during the initial COVID days when things were absolutely sideways. FWIW, My boss has been at this company since he graduated law school and in a counsel role for the last 9 of those 12 years.
Airplane.
Shrug, this very much depends. I’m Fortune 50 and have a 9-5. Other friends at mid size to Fortune 50 have very close to 9-5. Start up, emerging growth, and vendor side software provider in-house friends have a much busier schedule. If you only support sales maybe you’re a lot busier and have heavy sales cycle driven schedules (end of quarter etc), but most of my in-house friends manage a 9-5 or 9-6 schedule.
Anon
Seniority and legal department structure matters too. Some legal departments have staff attorneys who have a more normal schedule.
AFT
I was seriously looking for about 2 years (pre covid). It’s going to depend on your specialty, seniority and connections. During the 2 years, I probably applied for 30-45 jobs and interviewed for 10-15 (finalist for probably 5 of those?). Unfortunately, the numbers are very much not in your favor as their are often many biglaw lawyers trying to go in-house, and IME it’s much harder to get your first job in-house than subsequent jobs, as I kept losing out to people with comparable seniority level/experience who had been in-house a few years already.
I think you need to focus on your current job and try to get back into a good headspace, as it will be even harder to get a job if you aren’t currently employed at a firm. I’m sorry, this probably isn’t what you want to hear, but this was my experience.
Anon
Yes, I agree with this. It also very much depends on where you are. Since you’re currently in Big Law, I assume you’re in a large city, but I’m in a smaller state where there just aren’t a ton of companies that need in-house counsel. I looked for years and was rejected many times before finally getting my position in-house. I’d bank on it taking a lot longer than you anticipate. I also respect the boundary setting you’re doing, but having such a hard line is a risk in law. You may be ok with that risk, but it’s going to be especially especially hard to find a job in-house (such an in demand position) if you are let go from your current job. I’d consider government options and even other firms to address at least some of these issues.
Anon
What you’re looking for is a government job if the hours are the biggest drive here, but I would imagine some of those have contracted due to the recession. In my state, I know lots of state lawyers who are having to take furlough days fairly regularly but feel grateful they still have jobs. Also, I’ve been in house with the state after a period of mid-size law burnout and HATED it. I’m happily back in private practice but YMMV. Government works comes with a lot of the headaches of in-house that other commenters point out–it’s a big cultural shift after working in private practice. Can you do a sabbatical instead? You sound completely burnt out and doing a sudden job jump rarely lands you in a better position.
cbackson
I don’t think you can keep doing this much longer without repercussions, no. I’m in-house now (was recruited, so no feedback on how long the job search will take), but what I’m hearing anecdotally from friends still in Biglaw is that people are being let go off-cycle (as in, not waiting for their annual reviews) for performance reasons. It makes sense, because a lot of firms need to lower headcount but would like to avoid a mass layoff. Also, if they don’t need to cut headcount and want to replace you, it’s going to be a buyers market because most places aren’t hiring.
Anonymous
I’m OP – Thanks for this head’s up (and those above). I hadn’t heard this. I do feel relatively safe (which I think is an explanation for how brash my attitude has been about sticking to my boundaries) as my group is terribly understaffed and just lost two associates to other firms. But I hadn’t even considered the possibility of being let go off-cycle, so that’s a huge caution.
To the comments above about getting into a better headspace or getting my act together at my current job, unfortunately I’m far beyond that. I was actually considering going on a mental health leave prior to COVID, and then the shut-down and work from home situation alleviated the need for that somewhat. But I’m really mentally unable to meet the expectations here – which translates to me being unwilling to and setting boundaries for the sake of my health. I have tried to turn it around many times, but the toxicity of the workplace and the height of the expectations are just too much – some people simply aren’t cut out to work all the time, and I am one of them. I went on medication over a year ago to get me through until I could get out, and even with that I am floundering. It’s sort of a desperate situation that I’m in right now unfortunately. And I know that comes off as having a bad attitude, but it’s a self-preservation thing at this point for me.
anon
I used to be in our position as a result of a few extremely toxic partners in big law, except that I did have three partners who were solidly on my side who were my bulwark against sudden firing. I cried every day and frequently fantasized about jumping off the parking deck. If you’re really at that point where you are considering leave because you are floundering, miserable, and not able to meet expectations, you might consider broadening your search to smaller firms. Still a risk, especially in this economic environment, but no one can tell you for sure how long it will take you to find an in house position.
anon
cbackson, not to threadjack, but just curious, how were you recruited? Did you have a former colleague/friend at your current in house company? I’ve been desperately searching for in house jobs for the last year plus and it seems like getting recruited is ideal!
Cat
I was recruited. I’d worked with several attorneys at the client for about 5 years. When there was an opening in my practice area (the incumbent person was moving cross country) one of my contacts quietly inquired if I’d be interested.
cbackson
I was their primary outside counsel and the GC was retiring so they called and asked if I’d be interested, basically!
anon
Hi it took me about a year. I was in biglaw for 3.5 years and in-house for nearly 4. I got laid off in April because of COVID – my company is not in an area you would think would be affected by the virus but about a third of the workforce was laid off globally. That being said, I got interviews at other in-house places pretty quickly so there are places hiring and not one has batted an eye at the layoffs but beware. Legal departments are cost centers and if a business is struggling to put up good earnings per share, they are going to make financial decisions. (Note that all salaries were cut beforehand, too.)
I completely understand your unwillingness to put up with awful partners but want to give you a cautious, helpful reminder that a prospective in-house employer may work with your current firm. Or may have a friend from law school that works at your current firm and after seeing your resume or interviewing you, may ask about you. You don’t want the partner to say to the prospective in-house employer that you have a bad attitude, etc. — no matter how justified it is and how insane biglaw expectations are. Just be careful.
Anon
I was seconded to a tech company and stayed. I am now at a different tech company. I am corporate. My second job took me 5 days to get. Like I interviewed on a Tuesday and started the following Monday.
IME, going in-house as a litigator is harder, because (fingers crossed) most companies hope to not have nearly so much litigation. That said, there are highly regulated industries (banks/mortgage lending) or larger companies or specific industries (insurance leaps to mind) who need lots of in-house folks on the lit side. You will need to think about “de-law-firming” your resume–in-house your skills, not your prestige, matter more.
How long your jobsearch takes depends on geo, your background, your seniority (don’t be too senior–this is a huge sticking point for in-house), and of course, the economy. For instance, the Bay Area has lots of jobs, but previously I was in Boston, and there were far fewer in-house jobs, and many were biotech focused.
I recommend you take a look at the Lawyer Whisperer blog and also goinhouse.com (they have a guide). Separately, the Fishbowl app (it’s an app where there’s a super-active lawyer community in “bowls” for things like “Law” “Biglaw” and “In-House Counsel” is a great resource–lots of opportunity to ask anon questions.
Also look on the ABA, ACC, TechGC, Ventureloop jobboards.
If you want to work at a bank, many of them don’t even post on major jobboards like LinkedIn or Indeed–they have clunky old websites. Wells Fargo in particular is like this.
I would also look at taking FMLA leave for mental health reasons from biglaw and going on disability. If you are not meeting expectations, there is a high likelihood you will be stealthed. It’s already happening to a lot of my friends who are midlevels/seniors. The pyramid is getting winnowed faster than normal. I understand you’re really burnt out–I’ve been there. But get the help you need instead of waiting for it to reach crisis levels, which is sounds like you’re at. Good luck and hugs. You sound like you’re just white-knuckling it to your next gig, and I applaud you for taking steps to get out, but don’t tarnish your rep in the process.
And–piling on–I work way more than 9-5, but I am an in-house transactional gal, so I do crazy deals.
OP
Thank you so much for these resources – extremely helpful. I hear all the cautions in your comment and those above and thank everyone for those as well. I’ve not been unaware of them – having these partners constantly pissed at me obviously adds to the anxiety issues I am already having with this job. One partner called me out for “going silent” over a long weekend on a call with a client yesterday, which really was pleasant. So I am working to correct those situations in the meantime while I wait for my exit ramp. I just really, really need it to come soon.
Amber
Yes, OP it sounds like you are doing all that you can to get through it right now – take care of yourself and try to do what you can to stay healthy mentally. Since you are working from home, can you take more breaks or give yourself rewards for finishing tasks? I have started to take baths during lunchtime! Good luck to you.
Anon
Slow to respond, but good for you setting boundaries. Meeting all your deadlines and doing excellent work just proves that you don’t have to buy in to “everything is an emergency and we own you” culture. Best of luck.
Anonymous
How did you manage to get yourself not totally stressed out over your parents’ health as they get older? I feel like for a lot of my friends (or all?) they have their own husbands and kids so needing to feed the 1 year old naturally takes “priority” — like even if they’ve heard their parents say the dr said x, it’s — gotta go the baby needs to eat. Yet when you don’t have kids or your own family, I feel like you can obsess 24-7. I feel like in my family there’s also been years of the parent saying — OMG why does my foot/back/whatever hurt, I’m going to worry about it non stop and worry the rest of you too. So that’s colored my views which swing between irritation and OMG worry. But IDK now as the parents get older (mid 70s) ANY testing that a dr wants that isn’t routine makes me worry; and now it’s this other layer of — testing that has to be done during covid times means going in and out of medical buildings etc. Is this manageable at all or one of those facts of life things?
anon8
Honestly, I think therapy to deal with the worrying and obsessing 24/7 that you mention. It’s normal to be concerned and have worry about your parent’s health, but at some point you need to trust that they are doing the right things to take care of their health. Tests are not bad – they are just a way to obtaining more information. There might not be a problem at all. Or if there is an issue the test results will provide the doctor a way to come up with an optimal treatment plan.
Anon
I feel less stressed when I know what’s going on (have seen the test results, etc.) and when I trust the doctor. A really good PCP can help, because then I’m not worrying that serious issues are being brushed off as “just aging,” or, on the other hand, that minor complaints are inviting unwarranted polypharmacy.
Anonymous
It’s manageable if you treat your anxiety.
Anonymous
Same question and IDK what the answer is. What I have found though is that my worry is proportional to the worry and attitude of the person seeking the care if that makes sense. Like the ones who express their worry ALL THE TIME over everything make you worried too.
Anon
I’ve been going through this over the past few years– my parents were significantly older than my friends’ parents so I had to deal with it a bit before a lot of my peers. Honestly, I just had to get to a place where I accepted there’s nothing I can do about it. The most I could do was help facilitate doctors’ appointments and treatments IF they wanted my help. My mother had terrible congestive heart failure and ended up in the hospital multiple times because she wouldn’t stick to a low sodium diet. She was of sound mind, so I had to just understand and accept that she is a grown adult with agency and can eat chips if she wants, even if the consequences are bad. Similar stuff happened with my father, and once he wasn’t of sound mind, I of course had to step in. It was difficult, but I really had to believe and understand that what was happening was stressful because I love him, but there was nothing I could do other than help make sure he had good care. I also had to remind myself that it’s normal for me to be worried about people I love, and also part of that worry was that I was really scared of losing them. Even putting a name to that feeling helped me understand and tolerate it. Therapy and meditation are how I got to that place.
Anonymous
I accept that my parents are people, they will die, and that they will likely have health issues when they get older. I also trust them to be adults and manage it in the way that they think is best. My dad had a hip replacement last year and I didn’t worry at all. I have been through numerous surgeries and felt that it was routine and NBD. But then again, I am also not someone who worries about death or that type of thing. It is just a thing that happens to people as they get older.
Anon
My grandma’s doctors mismanaged her care so gravely and unnecessarily that I just can’t let it go like that. If I thought doctors did a good job with their older patients, I’d feel differently.
Anon
Gross question, but my cat seems to be throwing up much more frequently after eating. We’ve tried a few different wet foods since she seemed to go off her old food and I’m not sure if one of them might be giving her some kind of allergic response – it’s hard to pinpoint the vomiting to just one type of food. I think we should take her to the vet, but given how extreme coronavirus is in our area and how my friends have said “meh cats throw up, it’s fine,” I wanted to double check here. What information would be helpful for me to bring to the vet and have anyone else’s cats ever had this happen somewhat suddenly? She’s eight years old and in good health otherwise.
Anon
Yes, it was IBD, we had to do a round of prednisone and B12 shots before switching to a diet based on a previously unintroduced protein. I don’t know how likely it is that this is the issue for your cat (though it’s a very common issue generally), but I mention it because we really messed up trying different foods before consulting the vet, since our cat developed intolerances to every protein we tried while his GI system was so badly inflamed. The other reason I mention this is that it’s important to catch it early, because it can progress into small cell lymphoma. The first symptom was more frequent vomiting, then increased hunger, then weight loss. I found that a vet affiliated with a local veterinary hospital was more knowledgeable about treatment.
Anon
How did they find out it was IBD?
Anon
They did some tests for GI inflammation. I remember the test was a send away to a lab in Texas. I think it ruled out some other issues like EPI and showed the B12 deficiency.
I think some imaging was an option, and for my cat biopsy for lymphoma was also on the table since we unfortunately we did not nip this in the bud, but the vet said those tests were optional given the clinical picture.
Panda Bear
Poor kitty! If you haven’t already, start writing everythkng down – what brand and type of food she ate, what time, if/when she threw up. That way you can call the vet for advice (even if you can’t bring her in) and give them as much information as possible. Also keep track other other signals – how is her litterbox use? Normal peeing, pooping, etc? Normal behavior otherwise?
One problem my kitty has is eating so fast that he then pukes. So I feed him half his food (he only eats wet since he has very few teeth!), then the other half about 20 minutes later.
But the best thing is to gather as much information as possible and see what the vet says. Most vets in my area are doing hand-offs where you bring kitty in her carrier to the office, and a staff person collects her without you coming into the office, to minimize human contact. Yes, sometimes cats throw up and its fine, but it’s best to find out what you can and see what options your vet can suggest. I hope she feels better soon!
Anonymous
An easy thing to try is raising the bowl slightly but I’d phone your vet. I think they are being more flexible with video consults and we did a drop off for our cat and waited outside when they had to be seen. We also do the novel protein for our cat and found purina Hypoallergenic to be preferred by our cats dermatologist! You do get low hairball ones too. Grossly, there’s a difference between them being sick and regurgitation. If it’s regurgitation it comes up looking like it went down, if they are being sick it’s more digested.
Anon
Are you giving her part of a can and then refrigerating the rest? If so, make sure the leftover canned food is fed within a day or so and leave it out for 15-20 minutes to let it come back down to room temperature before feeding. Cats will throw up from eating wet food that is too cold.
As far as determining a possible allergy, the only way to do that is to keep her on one type of food at a time. If it persists, you could try sensitive stomach formulas. She may also just not do well on wet food. Unless she is vomiting daily, I would take these steps first and then go to the vet so you have some more info to tell them.
Anon
Also, I’d poke around in her litter box and make sure there is no blood in her stool. My cat had a GI infection once and exhibited this symptom, although he wasn’t throwing up.
Anon
Thanks for responding. She is actually barely touching her wet food – she goes straight to the dry food, which she seems to love. That’s why we tried changing wet food brands since we had heard (through online reviews) that the tried and true brand of wet food she enjoyed for years had possibly changed its formula. I think it’s possible she’s eating the dry food too quickly, but it’s hard to be sure.
Anonymous
My aged cat puked a lot and it was part of a thyroid condition. Meds and that stopped happening
Anon
Second in the thyroid issue. My cat starting newly throwing up food all the time and it turned out to be a thyroid problem that was fairly easily controlled with pills and the throwing up stopped.
Anon
Please just take her to the vet for a check up. My vet will come to the car to collect her so I never have to go inside. Your vet or another nearby vet should be willing to do the same.
anon
My cat threw up for years after eating and even after switching to GI friendly food (and numerous vet visits), it turns out I just needed to brush her aggressively 2-3 times a week. I got a Furminator hairbrush and set a reminder for 3x a week and go at it. She rarely threw up “hairballs” – just food, so I didn’t know that could be the problem. For $30 it is a cheap try at a solution!
You can also buy “slow feeders” for your dry food – we have the one on amazon (“Pioneer Pet SmartCat Tiger Diner Cat Feeder”), although I presume any of them work just fine. Our other cat will eat the dry food too fast as he prefers it to wet and then vomits it up.
My vet is currently doing distanced pet visits – leave the cage in the back of your car and they’ll pick up and drop off. It seems highly safe and I encourage you to reach out to your vet.
Anon
Thanks everyone for the helpful responses. I just got her a vet appointment (two weeks out, though – guess they’re busy) and it turns out they’re doing curbside pick-up and pay over the phone. I think there’s a chance she’s just eating the dry food too fast so we’ll also look into a slow feeder. Thanks again!
Anon
Yes, and vet was unhelpful and wanted to do an exploratory surgery. I did one scope and a few other tests that totaled up to over a thousand dollars when he suggested exploratory surgery that would have put me at $3k! I switched foods and finally figured out it was a sensitivity to peas and vomiting stopped. It was fairly easy to tell because he went from projectile vomiting every meal to keeping it down.
Now, there is a section devoted to pea free foods so apparently it’s common enough. At the time, it was not the case but I read countless online forums until I read that pea allergies can be a thing in cats.
Anon
My cat can’t tolerate pea protein or tapioca starch, and isn’t supposed to have carrageenan or added phosphates. It really cuts down on the foods he can eat. I wish they wouldn’t put so many fillers in pet food!
Go for it
Adding on to what others have said… hairballs? Eww for sure! They sell stuff in pet stores ….it’s essentially like beef jelly in a tube ….cats love it and it helps them pass them organically and it may resolve your problem.
Anon
Idk. One of my chubby bro cats has occasional bouts of vomiting and sometimes diarrhea. He will clearly not be feeling well for a few hours, but then will bounce back and be his normal charming self until it happens again. I’m holding off taking him to the vet because knowing my vet they will run $7000 worth of tests and then tell me they have no idea.
My cat hasn’t lost any weight though. It would concern me more if he did.
Horse Crazy
Chubby bro cat is exactly the term I’ve been looking for to describe my big boy. Stealing that!
Need Container Garden Tips
Literal gardening question. How do I deter birds? I’m container gardening on my patio & tried some new plants this year due to the seed shortages in spring. Unfortunately, the seeds and especially spinach plants are attracting birds. I tried a falcon statue but it isn’t sufficient, and I’ve ordered some ribbon. Do they make planter covers with netting that I could order somewhere (say for a 12 x 12 planter) or would I need to construct my own? I’m hoping for something simple/sturdy as it’s a lot of work for just a few plants … though it does help to have a at-home hobby these days.
Alternatively, any suggestions for crops that don’t attract birds (tomatoes and basil seem safe).
Anon
Yep, bird netting is totally a thing. Check out gardeners.com or any garden supply place.
Anon
Maybe a bird feeder would distract them from your plants.
Anon
A bird feeder and a bird bath can help. Sometimes they peck things like tomatoes to get the moisture out. Also definitely bird nets!
Anon
Wow this dress is GORGEOUS. Out of my budget but beautiful
anon
Big 10 person here. Why are we trying to have a football season, other than money, plain and simple? It is so freaking dumb.
Abby
I saw the schedule today…I still don’t think the games are going to happen. I feel bad for the student players, many who I bet want to play if given the chance. I also get that the money helps almost all of the other sports stay afloat, it just all seems like a bad idea.
Anon
Big 10 college town here, the institution plans to start face to face in two weeks, students are already moving in to off campus apartments and ignoring social distancing in bars, no masking, etc. and we all know that they’ll have to shut down the semester in about 2-3 weeks and go all online based on the experiences in other places. The only thing that makes sense to me is that they (and the town and business community) are so desperate for even some of the revenue generated by students coming back to campus and holding out the promise of a football season that they are willing to kill some people to feebly support the local economy. I’m higher ed-adjacent and there are so many institutions that are doing this.
Anon
I don’t know, the players and coaches are tested regularly and the stadiums are outdoors and will have reduced capacity and require masks so the games themselves don’t seem that risky to me. I’m in a Big 10 college town too and I agree that bringing tens of thousands of undergrads back to campus wasn’t the right decision (at least my city is finally talking about closing the bars), but I don’t really see football as much additional risk on top of that and it will give people who love college football (me included) a tiny sliver of normalcy.
LaurenB
Oh, well, as long as those who love college football have some sense of normalcy, that’s worth it. @@ Can’t you – I don’t know, watch old college football games on ESPN or something? Seriously?
Anon
I know this is incomprehensible to you, but it’s a virus with a 0.5% death rate (much lower in children and young adults) and some of us don’t want to put our lives on hold for years for something that is only slightly more deadly than the seasonal flu. Haven’t you read all the “a vaccine isn’t a silver bullet” articles? This isn’t ending any time soon and we can’t all just give up years of our lives. Stay inside if you’re worried.
Anon
Most athletes want to preserve their full lung capacities as well as normal cardiac function.
Anon
It’s not low risk at all for the athletes, especially when they are piled on top of each other as a function of play: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/08/02/red-sox-ace-27-wont-pitch-this-season-because-heart-ailment-linked-covid-19/
Football fan
My son plays football and I am hoping that we have a fall season. They are playing their spring season now since it was delayed and everything has been fine. The team had to sit out one game because of a Covid exposure and some games have been shuffled, but it has been fine and so nice to have a sense of normalcy back. We can’t live in a bubble forever.
Mrs. Jones
SEC person here. There’s no way it’s really going to happen. And yes I think money is the reason they’re trying.
LaurenB
Ditto! I read something that said “If we’d only told the South that SEC football this fall was dependent on wearing masks, they would have all worn masks from the get-go.” I read something recently about how some official at some SEC school (I think it was Alabama) said something along the lines of “Well, the students HAVE to come back to campus for us to be able to play football.” What a disgusting set of priorities – the students have to be the guinea pigs for you to indulge your hobby of throwing a ball around. And I have a relative who played football for Alabama!!
Image Search
There was a poster in yesterday’s lunchtime post (their handle was something like “Is it Friday yet?”) that quickly found the link to one of the pieces of art in the blog post image. What a great skill – how do you do that kind of image search please? Thanks!
Is it Friday yet?
Honestly, no fancy technology or image searching. I just googled “geometric nature art” and luckily, the exact art came up pretty quickly. But I’m excited to order some stuff from that etsy store!!!
Image Search
OP here – That is pretty impressive! Thank you and WELL DONE!
Anon
You can search Google by images themselves (save and then upload the image) and it will show you all of the sites in which that image was found.
Image Search
You can search Google by images themselves (save and then upload the image) and it will show you all of the sites in which that image was found.
Anonymous
I desperately need to go to sleep earlier… I just need to accept that my kid wakes me up at 6 every day, thus staying up until 1 isn’t doing me any favors. Would it be bad if I used melatonin to adjust my bedtime earlier, but then tried to wean?
Anon
Melatonin isn’t a sleeping drug. It’s not something you’re going to get addicted to. It’s just a dietary supplement. It regulates your natural sleep/wake cycle and is something you have to take every night at the same exact time (roughly an hour or so before your target bed time) for it to help your cycle.
Patricia Gardiner
No, that’s a good use of melatonin. Make sure to take it 2 hours before bedtime, not right before bedtime.
Anon
Not bad, this is the recommended strategy suggested by my sleep doctor (neurologist). Take a very low dose of melatonin 2 hours before your desired bed time, preferably around 500 mcg (they have tablets in this dosage at trader joes). Expose yourself to bright light in the morning.
Anon
I think that’s basically the perfect situation in which to take melatonin. You don’t get addicted to it. I have a naturally long biological clock (my body basically wants to go to bed an hour later every day), so I use it once a week or so to “reset” myself to an earlier bedtime. I’ve never developed any kind of dependency. I think it’s safe to take every day, but I haven’t needed that. 1 mg is very effective for me.
Anonymous
I’m confused by the people directing you to take it 2 hrs before bedtime. The instructions on my bottle say to take it 30 min or less before going to bed. I find that I’m drowsy after 20-30 minutes, but if I wait longer than that I get a second wind and never want to go to sleep.
Anon
+1 this is my experience too. I get drowsy within 15-20 minutes of taking it. If I power past that drowsiness (which is hard but not impossible), I’m back to being awake and the melatonin seems to have no more effect. I have never heard the 2 hour thing and my experience suggests that wouldn’t work for me at all. I take a relatively low dose, fwiw.
Ses
Melatonin is not just a dietary supplement. It is one of the few OTC drugs that is actually a hormone. I just mention this because it can be pretty powerful and is often taken in the wrong dosage. It is mostly unregulated in the US, but in other countries it is regulated.
Some studies have shown that the optimal dose is far below what is commonly sold – as in 0.1 to 0.3 mg is optimal vs 1.0 to 5.0 mg commonly sold.
That said, I find it remarkably effective for resetting my sleep patterns, and my anecdata is consistent with the study I mentioned above where less than 1/3 of a 1.0 mg pill is what I take, 30 minutes before sleep.
I also find that unless I let myself sleep a full 8.5 hours, I will be groggy in the morning. Also, many people report intense dreams, also consistent with my experience.
Anon
+1
Everything in this comment is consistent with what my sleep neurologist told me.
The higher doses are sometimes used for endocrine conditions; the optimal dose for sleep is minuscule.
Anon
Random question but does anyone here use adaptogens and find them effective? I’ve been getting bombarded by Four Sigmatic ads and I think its starting to work, I am thinking about adding some type of mushroom blend to my daily green smoothie. Idk it seems pretty woo-woo to me but if it works why not?