Corporette.com

Updated: Nov 1, 2018 292 Comments · by

Wednesday’s TPS Report: Arbor Vines Sweater Jacket

Fashion· The Personal Shopper (TPS)· Wear to Work | · ·

This post may contain affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. Arbor Vines Sweater JacketThis boiled wool sweater jacket caught my eye a few days ago, and it's been on my mind since — love the fitted look, the pleats in the back, and the delicate leaf/floral applique all over it. I'd wear it with wide black trousers and a jewel tone top, and perhaps add a brooch. It's $128 at Anthropologie. Arbor Vines Sweater Jacket Seen a great piece you'd like to recommend? Please e-mail editor@corporette.com with “TPS” in the subject line. (Disclosures)

Sales of note for 9.30.24

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

About Kat

Kat Griffin is the founder, publisher, and editor-in-chief of Corporette. You can read more about her here.

Comments

  6. jd

    Love! I would wear it in a more muted palette than the one you suggest though – maybe a tweedy brown trouser and a warm red-toned top.

  8. K

    Gorgeous!!! I also love the Crimson Chevrons Blazer on the same page… how would you ladies style that?

    • surrounded by lawyers

      With brown or taupe tweed on the bottom: pencil skirt or cropped pants. Understated gold jewelry. Warm neutral heels. No black in this outfit as I would envision it.

    • AtlantaAttorney

      Bootcut brown tweed or brown large plaid pants, brown boots, cream sweater shell underneath the red sweater, and a statement necklace, like big brown beads.

  11. Sorry

    For the Threadjack, but….

    Looks like I’m moving to Philadelphia! In considering what to do when I move there, I realized that I can now revive my plans to go to law school, if I want to. Anyone have opinions on A. Philly as a city, B. law schools there, and C. umm…anything else?

    (NB: This is not a decision I’ve come to lightly; I’ve been wanting to go to law school for years, it just hasn’t worked out with where I’ve wanted to live [long story].)

        • Marti

          There are many great things to do in Philadelphia, but attending law school is not one of them. Just don’t go. I absolutely regret earning my JD (T10, honors, journal editorial board, clinics, internships, etc.). My good friend currently at Villanova regrets her choice, too. And my T10 employed friend is pretty unhappy at her biglaw job, where she has remained only in order to save up enough money to switch careers.

          If you insist on going, first get some professional experience, like working as a paralegal for a year or two. Hopefully you will see how much most lawyers hate their jobs (contra: prosecutors and defense attorneys who are paid decently [confer: public defenders]) and will find a better way to invest > $150,000 and three years of relative youth.

          • Emily I

            I love it! But I don’t work in BigLaw, and I have a pretty balanced life.

          • Divaliscious11

            I love being a lawyer. But i also didn’t have $150K in debt, and did the clerkship/biglaw/in-house route that career development sells but doesn’t articulate that it really doesn’t happen that way for everyone. I gambled and went to a top 50 school for less $ than the top 25 school i also got in, and for me its paid off, but I had classmates with more debt for undergrad than I had/have for undergrad, law and b-school combined, and that impacts work decisions and quality of life….

          • mbs

            I like my job, but I work at a small firm (11 attorneys) in a low-cost-of-living midwestern city, rarely work weekends or after about 6pm on weeknights. Also, I went to a small private law school in my city on a scholarship, so no loans. I guess it depends on your circumstances.

      • Anonymous

        I would only go to law school if you can go without taking out loans, or a very minimal amount of loans (like under $30,000 minimal). I am not a lawyer but have six friends who just graduated from law school in the last three or four years, and only one of them is working as a lawyer right now. The other five are working in car dealerships, ad agencies, family businesses, etc. etc. because that’s the only way they can pay their bills. There is a lot of info out there on the web about the glut of law graduates and how it’s super, super hard to get ANY law job right now, much less a high-dollar one. The days of gambling $160,000 in loans against the chance of getting a low-to-mid six-figure job straight out of law school are over. So, as I said – if you can do it without taking out loans (and I wouldn’t drain my savings either), it’s a good idea. Otherwise, no.

    • lawyerette

      Why do you want to go to law school? What job do you want to have after law school? The answers to those questions would completely change the advice anyone would give you about which law schools to go to and whether any of them are in Philly.

      • A

        I went to grad school at Penn — although not law school — and loved the whole Philadelphia experience. Congrats on the move! Philly is a fantastic city, if you’re a city person. It’s not pretentious at all, it’s very walkable, and there are lots of great things to discover. A few of my favs are a lunch truck in University City called MexiCali, the Macy’s in Center City that has an organ inside (!) and plays beautiful music daily, and any of the Marathon Grill restaurants.

        • VA

          Second the love Philly experience. I went to Penn as an undergrad and found Philly to be great ~ amazing restaurant culture, lots of history, very walkable as A says. But, on the other hand, cities can be hectic and dirty and the common downsides to city life were more than I wanted to deal with for law school. So, I turned down Penn Law for UVA. I’m currently a 3L and I’ll be in DC next year.

          However, Philly is fantastic for law school if you (a) want a city experience (and as I mentioned, Philly as a city has many wonderful aspects) and (b) particularly want to practice in the tri-state area (PA, NY, NJ). I got the sense that a lot of Penn Law students, for example, were focused on going to NYC and doing corporate work. Not my particular focus, but to each their own. Otherwise, Penn Law seemed great and the school is in the process of completing a major renovation and additions.

          You should be aware that even if you end up being a strong student at a top tier school, many employers have regional biases (not insurmountable) and want to see some geographic tie (city/state of home, family, undergrad or law school) because this is yet another way to distinguish the glut of virtually identical strong candidates to prestigious firms. You should consider where you want to practice afterwards and what kind of work.

    • anon

      Ignore the people who say don’t go to law school – if you’ve thought about it for a long time and it’s what you want, then do it. Penn is well thought of in the profession, and I don’t know anything about any other law schools there.

      • Divaliscious11

        I think this applies…if you get into PENN. If you are going to Temple or Drexel or Villanova etc…. be clear on why you are going…, not saying they are bad schools, but saying graduating from Penn is much different from the others in this market…

    • ER

      “I’ve been wanting to go to law school for years, it just hasn’t worked out with where I’ve wanted to live”

      This says to me that you really aren’t that serious in your desire to go to law school. Which is fine – excellent, even (I say this as a lawyer from a very top school).

      • Anon

        I completely disagree. I grew up in NYC (and went to undergrad here) and my entire family, my husband’s family, all of my friends and my husband’s career are here. Thankfully, there are many great law schools here and I am attending one. But if I either couldn’t get into one or there weren’t any, I wouldn’t pick up and move because there are too many other things keeping me here.

        This is clearly not the OP’s situation, but I don’t think that the lack of desire to move is an indication that she is not serious – certainly people can go to their “local” school and have great careers, depending on what they want to do.

        The OP said it was a “long story” so given our desire for anonymity here, I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt that she has good reasons for wanting to be in Philly.

    • Kady

      I lived in Philly for a few years back in the early 90s. It was in a revival mode back then – lots of new restaurants, great bars, great music. However, in Philly, neighborhood is key. Make sure you know the neighborhood you’re moving to.

      As for law school – only go if you want to be a lawyer, not b/c you want to go to law school. Make sure you know what a lawyer does. Other than that, obviously UPenn is stellar, Temple is good for second career-ers.

    • Anonymous

      I don’t know anything about Philly as a city or law schools in the area. As for starting law school, I wouldn’t flat out say “don’t go” without knowing anything about your decision process or prospects.

      I suggest you consider (1) why you are going to law school, (2) how much debt you will be taking on, and (3) what your realistic salary prospects are. It pains me to say this, but I would also consider the rankings of the schools to which you are admitted. Although it is possible to do very well with a degree from a lower-ranked law school, I would not rely on it. I graduated from a third-tier law school (which I selected because it had a night program and I received a full-ride scholarship), and I can tell you that almost everything I’ve accomplished in my profession (federal clerkship, job I love in BigLaw in a large Midwestern city) has been in spite of my decision to attend the lower-ranked school rather than the top-25 school in town. The vast majority of my classmates are struggling to stay afloat with their $100,000+ in student loans and low salaries–assuming they have jobs.

      You say you’ve given this decision a lot of thought, so I apologize if you’ve already thought this through. Whatever you decide, good luck!

      PS — For the record, even though being a lawyer is challenging, stressful, and time-consuming, I am very happy with my decision to become a lawyer.

      • A

        Incidentally, I went to grad school at Penn because my husband and I were moving there for his job. I’d thought about the masters program since college but wanted some work experience first, and it hadn’t been the right time to jump back into school. Being forced to move to Philly made the plan come together. So I’m just saying, this commenter might legitimately want to go to law school and just hasn’t had the right opportunity to quit life for three years and do it.

        At the same time, given the lawyers I know and their lack of fulfillment, and the debt that keeps them in their jobs in spite of it, I can understand the sentiments others have expressed.

      • MM

        Anonymous 12:04 gives great advice. In deciding whether to go to law school in Philly, you need to think carefully through what each law school would mean for your future. UPenn, if you are able to attend, has a national reputation and is a much more “portable” degree than others. (But is it portable to where you intend to move? If I were to go back to my home state, they would rather see a degree from the state school than from Penn, frankly.) If you intend to leave Philadelphia after law school, a degree from Villanova or Temple is not going to be as useful. That could leave you with massive debt and/or the opportunity cost of a degree from a school that is not known and does not have a network where you are ultimately searching for jobs.

        I actually really like being a lawyer. But I don’t recommend anyone who “wants to be a lawyer” make the decision to go to law school based only on that. You must have a solid plan for where/how you want to work, and then determine whether the school you can attend and the debt you will take out match up with the job prospects and life you envision.

        • Blonde Lawyer

          I think Villanova has a great national reputation even in small markets.

          • Jay

            This depends on what kind of law you want to do. IMO, unless you have a really good scholarship, for the kind of debt you’re taking on and if you want to be able to move outside the NY-NJ-DE-PA area, Penn is the only option. That wasn’t true ten years or even five years ago. But I think it’s true now. The glut of unemployed lawyers is staggering and every firm can be as particular as it wants to be. This goes the same for other areas too–if you can get into Chicago, go. If you can’t and don’t get a great scholarship to Illinois or Wisconsin or Minnesota, don’t go at all. $200k in debt is $200k in debt whether your starting salary is $160k or $60k.

    • So

      Great restaurants (especially of the gastropub variety, though lots of fine dining as well), great culture (Philadelphia Symphony is still awesome, despite administrative troubles, and the Art Museum is a real treat), good public transportation system, good parks and outdoor spaces. Didn’t much like the people or local culture when I lived there, but there are always nice people to be found if you look hard enough. The best part about Philly is that it’s a very walkable city and it’s easy to get around.

    • Regular Poster - Anon today

      I just want to post as somone who loves her job. Not all lawyers are miserable. I went to a state school that is highly ranked in my region though not as well known nationally. I found a job in my region but different state making good money but not big law money. My hours are long but not big law long. I am busy and have interesting work and work with very nice intelligent people.

      Sure there are tons of miserable unemployed lawyers and miserable employed lawyers. That doesn’t mean you will be one of them. Yes I have debt from law school and yes that ties my family down somewhat. However, I don’t blame anyone for our debt but ourselves. It was a calculated decision and for us it was worth it.

      I understand about law school not matching up with where you live, especially if it is a second career. You want to go somewhere good, not just the school down the street. If you are married, it is a give and take and you don’t move the fam unless and until everyone is on board.

      It sounds like you know what you want and just need some guidance in execution. I do agree working in a law firm before law school is really helpful, even if you temp as an assistant. If you are sure it is what you want to do – go for it. Not all of us are miserable.

      • Ballerina girl

        But a lot of us are. I wish someone had told me how many lawyers hate their jobs. I went to a top ten school, did well, and work in big law and I am miserable. I’m not sure I regret going to law school, but I do know that about 50% of the people I went to school with are unhappy. Just think hard about it. Paying out $1700 a month in loans is no fun and very limiting ($140K over ten years of repayment).

        • MelD

          Many people hate their jobs, period. It is not just law. I used to teach and all of my friends were as miserable if not more miserable than many people I know in the legal profession. I left it because I hated it so much that I was sick every morning right before work. Other friends aalso had serious health problems as a result. Loans aren’t necessarily fun, but if you want to be a lawyer because the work interests you, then I say it’s still worth going.

          • Recent Philly transplant

            This. I worked in nonprofit and so many people hated their jobs (and were making less than $40K to boot).

          • ADS

            The difference is that you can leave teaching and start a new career without hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt severely limiting your options. I’m guessing you didn’t go $150K into debt to learn to be a teacher, and then realize that you hated it.

        • Anonymous

          Ballerina girl, and anyone else in a similar situation, even if not a lawyer: can you share some thoughts about coping with being so unhappy with your job?

          • anon biglaw

            Therapy (and anti-depressants if appropriate). Exercise. Planned exit. Wine consumption. Paying off loans/other debt ASAP. But mostly, therapy.

          • Big Firm Lawyer

            I eat, shop, exercise, cry, and play with my dog. Some of my co-workers drink and sleep around. A few take prescriptions, a few take other (illegal pharmaceuticals). All of us are stuck because of our debt.

          • Ballerina girl

            Fantasizing about finding another job, looking for another job, interviewing for another job. Those are the long term things. Short term (I hope) aids have been: therapy, having a very supportive group of friends and family, zoloft (for a while at least), and setting goals outside of work. As far as those goals are concerned, this is a new one for me–I’m trying to think of what it is that I think I’m missing in life because of this job and trying to do those things. For example, I wanted to do yoga, but didn’t think I had time, so I’m trying to start doing yoga.

            But honestly, my real solution will be (if I get this job I’m hoping to get) to leave this job behind, accept that I will have a lot of debt for a while, and switch to a job that will pay me a fraction of my current salary but will give me a chance to do the kind of work I really want to do.

            I don’t mean to be gloom and doom, but it’s a real struggle. And it’s very depressing. In the time I’ve been at this job, my outlook on life has gotten pretty grim. I think there’s a beautiful world out there, I just don’t know how to access it anymore. I think it’ll take making a big leap and taking a big risk–and I’m happy that I think I’ve finally gotten to the point where I think I can do it.

          • Ballerina girl

            One more thing: I think big law can work for some people, but I don’t think it works for many. And I’m sure my experiences have been particularly bad because the poor market has made me feel very trapped. I never wanted to do big law, I wanted to do public interest law, but that’s easier said than done. It really is easier to get a six figure salary at a big law firm than to work for most NGOs.

          • Anonymous

            Wow. I think any situation where people need antidepressants to get through the day, solely because of their job, is very problematic, to say the least. That can’t be good for body, mind or spirit. My heart goes out to those of you in that situation. I hope you all will be able to find something else that will make you happier soon.

          • anon

            I had a rough run in big law too — crying every morning, feeling really depressed, weekly therapy sessions, lots of wine, lots of shopping. But, I paid off most of my loans. After two years, I knew I had to get out. I managed a spectacularly lucky federal clerkship, and am now a prosecutor. I love, love, love my job. But, I wouldn’t have been able to do it with the debt burden I started with, so I guess big law served a purpose. And, I still do have a pretty spectacular shoe collection from my depression induced shopping sprees :)

            I caught severally really lucky breaks. But, its worth knowing that there are people who navigate through.

        • Rachel

          I could have written Ballerina Girl’s post for myself.

          I tell everyone who is thinking about law school to find a lawyer they can shadow or clerk with (or work as a receptionist for) for a month before going to law school. Some people do love it, and for them, the debt, hours, personalities, etc. are worth it. Most people do not. It’s not a one-size-fits-all career – many personalities are going to be miserable. And I could have gone into a sales career for a F100 company and been making what I make now if not twice as much, without the debt and isolation.

          • K

            This. But find one who will be honest and see if they are still in touch with anyone who left. I work with people I love and they are very honest but I didn’t realize that a lot of the things they loves about being lawyers are things that I hate. Learning new things all the time = overwhelming and constant stress. Lots of client contact = day/night/weekends/good clients/clients who call you incompetent even though you know you are right. Partners who are invested in your future = partners who are fantastic attorneys and great people but believe that if you’re not willing to work around the clock, you shouldn’t be a lawyer. And for the record, I don’t even work in BigLaw. I work for a 50 attorney firm that I would highly recommend to people who love being lawyers. I just happened to realize being a lawyer (or at least a litigator) is not for me. Unfortunately I learned this after many summers of interning in litigation and three years of law school and like many others, I feel I can’t leave because of the debt. I really thought this was what I wanted to do, but it’s not.

        • L

          Biglaw is hard. I don’t know of a single person in biglaw that actually likes it. I got out and went to a small firm and have a much better job now.

          • Ann

            So then I have to ask, why do people do it, other than the money? Why do the people who stay in it long enough to make partner stay? Are there just some very aggressive, nasty people who love being in a tough, contentious environment? Is it solely about “I am going to make $200,000 a year so it doesn’t matter if I am unhappy?” I hear over and over again on this board how miserable BigLaw is, and yet those still seem to be the coveted jobs for people getting out of law school.

          • Anonymous

            Ann, I think it is mostly about money for most people. But it is possible to be really interested in the legal challenges presented in large, multi-national transactions, and those tend to come to Biglaw firms. It can be exciting to work on multi-billion dollar deals that are featured in the WSJ. It is also possible to find collegial environments with reasonable people who haven’t forgotten what it is like to be human beings, and with whom you don’t mind staying up all night, because they’re funny and patient and working just as hard as you. Staying in Biglaw to support a family also seems to be a big reason why some of my colleagues do it. But for the most part, it is a coveted place for law grads because of the money.

          • mbs

            “Are there just some very aggressive, nasty people who love being in a tough, contentious environment?”

            Yes, I get them on the other side of some of my cases. Can’t stand them. But being a lawyer gives you an awful lot of options. Government, non-profit, in-house, big firm, small firm, litigation for people who like to keep moving, corporate/business/estate planning for people who like to sit in an office. Different firms have different atmospheres and opportunities. I’m able to work at a small litigation firm, but do primarily research and writing because that’s what I like to do. I don’t make a ton of money, but I don’t have much stress and I like hat I do. I will say I think it’s foolish to run up a huge school loan to be a lawyer, since that limits all those options, unless you have a very specific goal in mind and you know it will be worth it. But few degrees give you the options that a law degree will.

      • RR

        Agreed. Not all lawyers hate their jobs, although it sometimes seems that way. I went to a borderline top tier law school (just in when I started, now in top of second tier), and I did a great clerkship and then got a job at a great mid-sized firm where I was very happy for 5 years working reasonable (sometimes long hours) and making good money. I now work for a BigLaw firm, and I’m still happy. My law school is a state school, and when I attended was reasonably priced (under $10,000 a year for tuition and books), so my debt was moderate. Don’t go out and incur $150,000 in debt at a fourth tier school and expect to get a great job in NYC, but it is realistic to be a happy, employed lawyer.

      • Mac

        As a lawyer who loves her job, I’d still caution you to think loooooooooong and hard about why you want to go to law school and what you would like to go to law school. I just graduated from a top ten law school in May, and am fortunate enough to be doing exactly what I wanted to do when I headed to law school (working in-house for a large multinational corporation), but I am the exception amongst my classmates. The rest are either frantically searching for any job at all, hating their biglaw jobs, or enjoying their deferrals while dreading starting their biglaw jobs, all while figuring out how to pay back major loans. It’s tough out there and there’s no guarantee that it’ll be much better in three years.

        As for Philly, it is a great city. My sister went to grad school there and really enjoyed it. She still talks about moving back. She lived in Center City, so within walking distance from tons of great restaurants, bars, and shopping. Also, I still crave Capogiro Gelato. It’s the best I’ve ever had!

        • Anonymous

          I am in a similar situation, in that while I really like my job, many of the people I graduated with a few years ago are not in the jobs they thought they would have when they started law school, and are not so happy. And they have a ton of debt. And it has only gotten worse for people who graduated after me. I went to an event the other night where there were a bunch of people who graduated in ’09 or ’10. With the exception of one person, every single one of them said that they had either started their own practice or were working for a solo practitioner and just doing whatever work that that person didn’t have time for. So I think the OP should be prepared for the statistical probability that she will end up in a job that doesn’t pay well enough to pay off the debt she will likely need to incur to go to law school. Of course there is a chance that she will be an exception too, but frankly she hasn’t posted anything so far that makes me think that that is the case.

        • Mac

          Also like to note that my beloved job is far from the major paycheck that everyone thinks lawyers enjoy. I make less now than I did before law school (at my entry level job), but I also have no debt. I don’t know how my coworkers with loans make ends meet!

        • Anonymous

          I do indigent defense for a small state agency and love my job. That said, I also strongly advise no to law school. It is not a good investment and hardly the only interesting field. Why does everyone go to law school? I went to become a public defender and never thought I would make a lot of money. Even so, I still greatly underestimated the power of the debt.

    • Sorry

      Ah, thanks for the advice, those of you who helped. FWIW, I *wasn’t* ready to go to law school before, which, I think, suggests that I *am* serious about it (serious to know that there were other things I wanted to do with my life before I took on the debt and before I wanted to settle down. Ex: it’s not easy to go to law school while you’re living in France, teaching English. That was something I wanted to do prior to law school. Now I’ve done it. Further ex: it’s not easy to go to law school when you’re living in Nashville, experimenting with the music scene. That was something I wanted to try out for a short period. Now I’ve done it.)

      So I’ve always known that I wanted to end up in law school (and as a lawyer). I don’t really feel the need to justify that any more than I already have, but just so you don’t feel the need to question my choices for me, I’ve given you a little more info. Hope that helps.

      Regarding neighborhoods: this is what I’m most curious about. I’ve specifically chosen Philly to be with my sister and her husband. They’ll be near Wills. I’m currently living in a FANTASTIC part of Nashville, and I’m nervous that I’ll end up in a neighborhood that’s not so awesome. Any recommendations? We’ve been talking about Center City and Manayunk, but also Rittenhouse for it’s location.

      Honestly, though, I’ve never been to the city. I’m excited to start over, but I really love Nashville a lot. So, Kady, and A: any more specifics recs on neighborhoods?

      As for law schools, I’ve never thought about going outside of the Southeast before, so I really only ever considered Bama and UGA, etc. I know absolutely nothing about the schools up north. Regarding how much debt I’m willing to take on…well, that’s scary too. (I don’t even own a credit card. I just don’t do debt. I was raised on Dave Ramsey.)

      I’m not decided on what area I specifically want to work in, but most of my experience is working with “church” lawyers, which I really enjoyed. But I feel like there’s a lot more to learn about. Believe me, I’m not rushing into anything (I have too many friends who hated law school or who can’t find a job). Just trying to gather information. Best way is from people who know- and isn’t that yall?

      Thanks for helping a gal out.

        • RKS

          Canonical (or canon) law? But that’s not open to women — you have to be a Roman Catholic priest first. I have a friend who first went to seminary and then received a doctorate in canonical law.

          • jcb

            I actually used to know a nun who practiced canon law – so I guess it is open to women, too. Aside from that, I have no idea what a “church” lawyer is.

      • So

        Center City is probably the place to be if you’re active and interested in things, as you seem to be. Rittenhouse is a neighborhood in the middle of Center City, and though it’s a bit pricier than a few other areas (the Art Museum district, which is where I lived, for one), it’s close close close to so much of the fun stuff and is conveniently located w/r/t public transportation. It sounds like you’re a few years out of college, so even if you do end up in grad school at Penn or Nova, you probably will want to live in Center City anyway (West Philly, where Penn is located, is great for undergrads, but less awesome for folks who are out of college). Old City is cool, too, but I think it’s even more expensive than Rittenhouse.

        Good luck! If you have a support network in the area, as it sounds like you have, Philly can be a great place to be.

        • SoAnonForThis

          For the schools, it depends on your LSAT and where you want to end up practicing- option 1: Philly or option 2: elsewhere.

          Penn- Ivy degree, Ivy debt. Great national reputation, alumni network in Philly is not as extensive as other places like NYC. Go here if you can afford it, don’t want to be tied down geographically, and are ok with working in Biglaw for years to work off your debt. I personally wasn’t thrilled with the shabbiness of the classrooms, but this may have changed. P.S. If you want an MBA/JD, go here because a Wharton degree is gold

          Temple- good scholarship options, great local reputation, fantastic network in the city, limited options if you want to work outside PA, DE, or NJ. The best trial ad program in the nation- so go here if you are a courtroom junky.

          Villanova- from what I understand, business-focused. A smidgen better in geographical range/alumni network than Temple. About the same in ranking as Temple. Just got a new law school building, so brand new facilities. I’ve heard expensive, but maybe you can get a good deal with LSATs.

          Drexel- new program that seems great but caution! I know several people in top 5% that could not get jobs because they don’t have a well-known reputation yet. Lawyers are very risk averse. Also beware because they work on a quarter system instead of semester, so their schedule is off of most firms’ hiring schedules. Will probably be a great bet in a few years and they have fantastic faculty. I think they have a pro-bono requirement.

          Rutgers-Camden- if you want to PD or DA, it might be less competition to start in Camden. Otherwise, I am not as familiar with this school. I think a lot of Rutgers students practice in Southern Jersey instead of Philly proper- I could be wrong.

          • SoAnonForThis

            As for location, where you live depends on how much $$ you want to spend. You may have sticker shock coming from the Mid-West. You will definitely want to see a place in person before you decide to live there because Philly can be sketchy in some places- one street can vary from the next.

            Also consider whether you want to keep a car because if you live in Rittenhouse, you will probably pay $250 a month to park. Philadelphia has two subway lines, some trolleys, and a bus system.

            Philly is made of several areas: North Philly, South Philly, Center City, University City, West Philly. Temple is in North Philly, UPenn and Drexel are in University City, Villanova is out in the PA burbs (40 min train ride), Rutgers is in Camden, NJ (15 min train ride).

            All of these are divided into neighborhoods, i.e., Italian Market in South Philly, Fishtown in North Philly. I live in Center City. I’ll give you a rundown of some of the more popular neighborhoods for young professionals:

            Rittenhouse- one of the most expensive areas, but one of the nicest. In the middle of the city, so very congested. Unless you have money to burn, I suggest not having a car here. Great restaurants and in the middle of everything.

            Washington Square West- contains the Gayborhood, which has a bunch of LGBT-friendly stores, restaurants, and bars. Cute area. Further down, there are a lot of med students. Apartments are generally small in this area.

            Old City- expensive, charming/annoying cobblestone, live here if you love the nightlife because music/clubs go all night. Parking is tough.

            Art Museum/southern Fairmount- I love this neighborhood, but I think it’s better for buying a condo than renting an apartment. I had a terrible experience with bed bugs in one of the large complexes right outside the museum. The streets are gorgeous and there are some hidden gem restaurants (Umai, Belgian Cafe, Bishop’s Collar). Depending on exactly where you are, parking can be difficult. Beware of “free” parking at apartment buildings without assigned spots. There were approx. 150 “free” spots for over 800 cars. Garage spots will probably cost 200 a month.

            Manayunk- lots of college kids live here. Parking is a nightmare. One main drag with nice bars and restaurants. It’s about a 25 min train ride outside of the city and not really considered part of Philly (IMHO).

            Northern Liberties (NoLibs)/Fishtown- up and coming, “artsy,” hipster neighborhoods. Street parking available. Slightly higher crime because it’s still gentrifying. This is in North Philly, not Center City.

            South Philly- not as familiar with this area, but I have a bunch of friends who live down here and are happy. Cost of renting is lower and places are bigger, but you will be farther away from most schools.

            University City- you need tolerance for college kid antics. Movie theaters, bars, always something to do. Not sure about the parking because I don’t personally know anyone who lives there.

            There are a million more neighborhoods. I’ll post a link in the next post.

          • Divaliscious11

            I’d push back on the claim of BESt trial advocacy in the country, but it is very good.

          • SoAnonForThis

            I consider “best” in the country = consistently ranked 1st or 2nd in trial ad by US News & World Report. Temple kids have a rep for being better in the courtroom compared to Penn. Just what I’ve heard, YMMV.

      • nonA

        Honestly? Your answer tells me you haven’t really thought it through. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go to law school, but before you make the decision about whether to go, and where to go, you really need to think it through a little more.

        Do you want to go to law school, or do you want to be a lawyer? These are two very different things. I liked law school, but I don’t like practicing law. I went to a T10 school, and I thought law school was intellectually stimulating, the classes were fascinating, the people great, etc. I find practing law to be mind-numbingly boring and neither intellectually nor emotionally satisfying.

        The real questions are: Why do you want to be a lawyer? What kind of law do you want to practice? Until you have good answers to those questions, please don’t go to law school, or, at the very least, please don’t go into any debt whatsoever to go to law school. When you do have good answers (with a little more detail than “being a ‘church’ lawyer”), and if you still decide to go, then sit down and figure out how much debt you can realistically handle at the lower-end of the starting salary for that area. Do not go to any law school that will make you borrow more than that.

      • Another Sarah

        FYI: the Philly legal scene will be VERY DIFFERENT from what you’ve described as your legal experience. Good different/bad different is up to the individual.

        And, FWIW, the law school itself will really tell you, flat out, how much debt you should be willing to take on. There is very little “I need to decide how much to take on” – you will cover the difference between total cost and scholarships. Unless you have savings/cash that can cover this. If you don’t feel comfortable with the amount of money that will be taken up in loans, don’t do it. Massive debt is pretty much a way of life in law school, and if you “don’t do debt,” then I think you will find yourself in a v. awkward situation.

        Speaking of which, you need to get yourself a credit card. You need to establish a credit history in order to get the best interest rates. If you need to take on private loans (hopefully you wont, but if you do), then you need a credit history. If you don’t have a credit card, you may not get the loans, which will leave you SOL.

        I taught English in France too!! Where were you? :-D

      • coco

        I grew up on the outskirts of Philly and Manyunk is awesome. I also know a lot of young people who enjoy the area around the art museum. Center city can vary a lot by blocks, and Rittenhouse is a nice area, although it was recently hit by a slew of robberies.

        Having recently moved to a city in New England, please note that Philly is a CITY and there is a fair deal of crime/etc. When I moved and people showed me first floor apartments without bars on windows, I thought they were insane. I’m not saying you have to be worried, but I would advise a degree of street smarts. If you don’t feel that way yet, pick somewhere like Manyunk.

        • SF Bay Associate

          Ditto! I grew up in an urban area with (more than its) fair deal of crime/etc and I totally agree with the insanity of a first floor apartment. Even now that I live in the suburbs, I categorically refuse all apartments on the first floor, and upon moving in, immediately head to Home Depot to by dowels for all the windows. My affluent-suburban-raised SO thinks I’m the insane one, but whatever – street smarts never hurt.

          We’re now just starting to think about purchasing a home in a few years, and the thought of a single level home with bedrooms on the first floor, which the SO thinks is fine and dandy, makes me very twitchy. ADT is going to make a fortune off me.

          • SF Bay Associate

            Wow, that Home D link inserted itself into my post, without me doing anything. Creepy.

      • Recent Philly transplant

        I moved to Philly last year and LOVE it. It’s probably my favorite city that I’ve lived in so far, and that’s saying a lot considering I’ve also lived in Chicago, SF, and DC! The big reason is the people. Everyone here is very very friendly (much more so than any other east coast city). The food scene here is also amazing, and I love how so many of the restaurants are BYO.

        Several others have already given you a detailed list of neighborhoods, so I won’t go into too much detail. I definitely think you should live in Center City because it’s walking distance to everything (Center City is only about 2 miles, so it’s easy to get anywhere). Within Center City, Rittenhouse is probably the best option because it has tons of great restaurants, bars, shopping, etc. However, it’s also expensive. Old City is also fun, it has beautiful galleries and is walking distance to all of the historical sites if you’re interested in history, but it’s more gritty than Rittenhouse. I don’t suggest you live in the Art Museum area — it’s beautiful, but it’s hard to get out to that area without a car or taking a cab.

        In terms of law schools, I am currently a federal law clerk and have been very impressed by the grads from Temple who have come to court. Penn of course is the Ivy Leaguer in town and has a fantastic reputation.
        I’m not familiar with the reputation of the other local schools.

        If you can go to a law school on at least some sort of scholarship, consider it very seriously. I went to a lower T1 school on a full scholarship, and am loving life with no debt. I was fortunate to do very well in law school and ended up with two federal clerkships plus a Big Law job, so it can be done even if you don’t end up at an Ivy. Meanwhile, I have friends at Top 10 schools who are $250K in debt and are tied to their Big Law jobs. It sucks because they feel very trapped, and that’s never a good situation to be in. So consider financial aid very very seriously.

        It seems like you know why you want to go to law school, so please don’t let the naysayers stop you from going. I loved law school, love being a lawyer and I think you’ll find plenty of happy folks in our profession. Good luck!

      • michelle

        You should definitely really check out the different neighborhoods, they really vary in character, expense, and amenities. Rittenhouse is very nice, but expensive, and everything there from groceries and drycleaning to restaurants is also expensive. It’s also mostly kind of far from public transit. There are now some parts of University City that are a little more adult oriented (rather than college kids). I loved living in Queen Village/Bella Vista because it was super cute and had a great mix of everything from cheap ethnic markets to super-fancy restaurants. Uh, prepare to eat a lot. We like food here. There are lots of artists in South Philly and up around Fishtown. So much depends on what kind of people you like to be around, what you like to do, do you like trees and greenery, where are you commuting to? You are unlikely to need a car, especially now that we have the car share program. I hope you enjoy it here!

      • Anon

        I am currently living in Nashville, and omg do I miss Philly. And I live in the “cool” “hip” “up-and-coming” part of Nashville (Five Points). Anywhere you live in Philly will be better than this in just about every way imaginable. (Okay, no hot chicken. That will be a downer.)

        Rittenhouse is in Center City, btw. Manayunk is sort of . . . eh. Kind of bobo at this point.

        Neighborhoods depend on what you want and what you like.

    • Another Sarah

      I echo everyone above who says to really examine your motives for going to law school. It’s really a rough job market right now, and there’s absolutely no basis to the statement, “But it will be fine in 3 years!” It probably won’t given how many legal jobs have been lost (not attorneys laid off, I mean ‘do not exist anymore’). If you’re doing it for a purely academic exercise, there are other degrees you can get that are cheaper ($$ and emotional-toll-wise).

      However, if you’re still all for it, the law schools in the Philly area:
      -Penn (Ivy, awesome ranking, funny grading)
      -Temple (excellent trial ad program)
      -Villanova (v. good school, but I’ve noticed it’s kinda gone down in the rankings lately)
      -Drexel (brand-new, just accredited, but relatively respected because Drexel U. is v. well-known in the Philly area)
      -Rutgers-Camden (across the river on the Jersey side).

      What do you mean when you say that it didn’t work out for you where you lived? Did you live outside the US?

      • Anon

        I agree, I’m confused by this comment about it not working out where you lived now that we find out you lived in Nashville. Nashville has a great law school (Vanderbilt), as well as an evening program if you are just really serious about being a lawyer while keeping a day job (Nashville School of Law). It’s soon to have a 3d law school, too.

        I think you may want to check your intentions here. If you have “dabbled” all your life, what makes you think you want to settle down as a lawyer? Most people do not go into law thinking this is something to do for 3-4 years. It’s intended to be a life-long career. Just sayin’…

    • SuzyQ

      I also enjoy practicing law and I think it’s because I switched practice areas twice, tried in-house for a couple of years and hated it and finally found what I want in a non-big-law, mid-sized firm that suits me perfectly. I say this to encourage those of you who are reading this and miserable at a firm, that it really doesn’t have to be that way. My close friends and I paid off all of our law school loans in a few short years at BigLaw and we have all moved on to greener pastures. I do agree with previous posters that going to a top tier school will give you greater employability/flexibility going forward.

      I love this little brunch place near Wharton – I think it’s called the White Dog or the Black Cat or something like that. Philly has great restaurants!

      • SoAnonForThis

        Yes! the White Dog Cafe is very cute and has great food. I love Philly’s BYOB scene

        • coco

          white dog is awesome! can’t wait to try the one that opened up on the main line!

    • anon

      If you’re definitely committed to law school (and seriously, reconsider), once upon a time I would have told you to go to the best ranked school you could get into, which in Philadelphia is Penn. Now, I would tell you that if you can get a free ride or a large scholarship somewhere, go there, no matter how low ranked. I wish I had gone somewhere lower ranked and taken scholarship money. There are those that will say you’ll have less opportunities, and maybe you will, but I went to a top-5 school and did decently well and, honestly, a lot of people I know from lower ranked schools are in the exact same position as me–unemployed and frantically searching. It seems like hiring is picking up a little, and maybe my school will help me in the long run, but right now, I’d definitely take being debt-free over prestige points.

    • M in CA

      So many great responses here. I’d also suggest that you go to law school in the state where you want to practice.

    • another opinion

      Wow, people feel strongly about this subject. Here’s one more perspective: I went to an expensive top 10 law school and now I’m 10 years out and have paid off my student loans. I would do it again, but there were years in between while hubby was a student when the student debt felt insurmountable. I worked in biglaw for 3 years straight out of law school and hated it because of the hours and the crazy workaholic bosses, but almost everyone does and I knew that going in. I wanted the big-name experience and big paycheck to pay down my student loans. But I could have skipped that step, looking back. Now I work at a wonderful small law firm with great people and a great practice and I love being a lawyer. So, you know, not all lawyers regret the decision to go to law school. My hubby is a happy attorney too, for what that’s worth.

      • AIMS

        I would agree with this.

        I like being an attorney. And, I was one of those people who went to law school because I thought, “why not? bound to be useful.” Obviously, I am very lucky, but I would just say it’s not an absolute that you’ll hate it — I think some areas can be very enjoyable, and you should figure out what they will be for you.

        It’s something to think about very seriously, and I would consider the varied experiences people have (and have expressed here) and the tough job market as part of that process. All that said, I would just add a few bits of advice —

        LSAT score is supremely important insofar as your options go. Take it as seriously as you have ever taken anything, maybe more so. I did a prep course at Kaplan & thought I was “doing my part” by just going to class. I wish I had done much more to prepare in retrospect (and btw, where you take the exam really matters too — pick a pleasant place). I ended up with a decent scholarship but my options and choices would have been much better if I did more to study.

        Also, talk to lawyers — there’s so much about law school that’s counterintuitive. Your first year grades are almost all that matters. There’s almost no learning curve. Hiring is sometimes done a year in advance, etc. Really take advantage of being a student/someone thinking about applying — lots of lawyers will be glad to advise you.

        Best of luck.

    • Sorry

      Let me clarify: I didn’t invite comments for your judgement. While that’s certainly your right, and is to be expected on the internet, good grief. You don’t know a damn thing about me or my decision.

      I expected better, although I don’t know why.

      (And seriously- “dabbling”??? Are you all so serious that you can’t allow yourself time to grow as a person before settling down? Have you ever considered that there are some people in the world who know exactly what they want to do, they just aren’t ready to do it yet? Maybe they want to see the world or experience something crazy before they decide they’re ready?)

      For those of you who offered helpful comments regarding schools and neighborhoods, I really appreciate it. You confirmed what I had read (except I didn’t realize how far out Manayunk was, so thanks for that! Or how walkable the city was- exciting!!) and I am glad to have your insight.

      For those of you who believe you know everything about me from a post on the internet…well, I honestly don’t know what to say to that. I appreciate you trying to dissuade me from what *you* feel was a mistake you made in your life, but I haven’t done a single thing in my life that I regret (except for that last shot the other night and OH COME ON IT’S A JOKE, LIGHTEN UP), so maybe I’m just really good at making decisions? Maybe I’m better at taking my time and only doing things when I’m ready for them, not when society dictates I should be ready? I don’t know. I’m sorry you’re so unhappy in your job; really, no snark there. I have a crappy job now, but it’s just a job. There are plenty of people in the world who have way worse jobs than me (or don’t have a job at all) so it is what it is, I guess. Maybe I’ll get out of law school and realize it was a probably not the best move. Maybe I’ll be brilliant; no one knows. But I’ve heard plenty of cautionary tales about law school and half a dozen other things I’ve done. It’s not a mistake for everyone. Thanks for your concern, but I’ll probably ignore it.

      And honestly, how could I have gone to Vandy or night school when I was busy working the country scene?

      Someone tell me I’m not the only person in the world who puts off dreams to do other dreams for a little while.

      • Eponine

        So long as you understand the legal market and what opportunities a JD will bring you (and will not bring you), I see no reason why you shouldn’t go to law school. If you’re not planning to stay in Philly or the surrounding region for the rest of your career, though, I really wouldn’t recommend going to Temple or Villanova.

        • Anon

          Agreed. And your defensiveness and inability to take constructive feedback that is intended to help you (btw, you DID ask for opinions on “anything else”) indicate that your first year of law school (and your first year at whatever legal job you get) are going to be really fun for you!

          • L

            I disagree completely. All those don’t go to law school comments were peole projecting and being judmental. This is just a continuation of that overly judgmental behavior.

      • anon

        Actually, I think it’s pretty great that you spent some time teaching in France and working the music scene. At least you won’t be one of those people who regrets the things that they *didn’t* do in their lifetime.

      • Ann

        What I’ll tell you is that this response makes you seem defensive and immature. Maybe some of the responses could have been phrased less confrontationally, but reading through the thread, you received very good, specific advice from experienced people who have been where you want to go and come out the other side with concrete experiences and wisdom.

        “And honestly, how could I have gone to Vandy or night school when I was busy working the country scene?”

        I am not exactly sure what this means, but I have family from Nashville and I know there are a million aspiring country singers there trying to “make it.” If that is what you spent your last few years doing, all I will say is: going from trying to make it in the music business to a buttoned-down, structured law school environment where you will be expected to perform under strict deadlines is going to be a big change, to say the very least. My advice is that you better be sure what you want and what you are doing before you waste a lot of money going to law school, and then come out with the realization that the actual business of practicing law (which is very different than being a law student, as some people pointed out) does not suit you.

        Many moons ago I worked in the entertainment business in marketing, and one of my bosses really wanted me to go to law school, because at that time, there were few lawyers who really understood contract negotiation and could serve in that capacity in entertainment deals. Since then, the entertainment business has contracted and consolidated, almost all deals are being handled at a corporate national level, and those jobs are very hard to get. On the artist side, there are about two agents for every one performer with real talent, and most up-and-coming artists with real potential want to be represented by the big dogs (CAA, etc.) anyway. I am making assumptions here, but if you have illusions of getting into entertainment law, I would have very serious conversations with some people in the field, and some people in entertainment who deal with entertainment lawyers, to examine the true job prospects. There are a million lawyers out there that would love to do entertainment law because it is exciting, who have much more experience than you do. Make sure what you want to do aligns with what is actually possible. Good luck to you. You need it.

      • Frump

        I think you’re acting a bit over the top. You asked for opinions and advice and you got it- just because you may not like what you’re hearing doesn’t mean people are insulting you personally. In fact, I think everybody has given you very polite, respectful, and useful advice, and I’ve found none of it rude, mean, judgemental, or a personal affront against you.

        If you’re not prepared to face the realities that others may explain to you, perhaps you’re not ready to actually take on that reality. Or, do what you want to do regardless of what others say, but then don’t ask for information to help out if you’re just going to insult the ideas of people who were trying to relay the experiences that you asked for.

        • Mac

          This. You asked for advice about law schools or anything else. You got advice about specific law schools, law school in general and legal careers. The vast majority of it was respectful, helpful and on topic. Instead of being grateful for the advice, even if you don’t think it applies to you, you flat out tell everyone that you’re probably going to ignore their advice anyway. Classy.

          You are the perfect example of NonA’s comment:
          We say these things to young, fresh, chipper “I want to go to law school” types, they refuse to believe that what we say will ever apply to them, and then 4 years later we run into these same people and they say “I really wish I had listened to your advice”.

          • another anonymous

            This too. Also, if you’re really thinking about law school, you should learn how to spell “judgment.”

          • Anon

            This. So very much this.

            I’ll admit – I was one of those people that didn’t really think the law school thing through. I knew going in that I was choosing a less than ideal reason – “it seemed like the thing to do” – and didn’t do nearly enough research about the decision.

            The result? Mixed. There were parts of law school I enjoyed – the people, the intellectual problems, the musical – but, as I have discovered, I am not suited for life as a lawyer. Its more confrontational than I like, involves more risk (forming opinions on ambiguous laws to advise clients) than I like, and my personality is not suited for the actual practice. I practice for 8 months in a small firm with an attorney that I quickly grew to dislike – in part because he was asking me to things that were way outside my comfort range and I was just not able to adjust, and in part because he was a total a**hat.

            I’m not sure whether I regret going – I made some really good friends there, met some really smart people, I like knowing “how things work” in the law, and I am pretty sure I would never have met my current boyfriend if I hadn’t gone to law school. (However, going to law school to find a husband is also a TERRIBLE reason to go, in case that was anywhere in your reasoning) And those are all things that I would sorely miss from my life. All it cost me was $120k (60k in loans, and 60k, at least, in lost earnings over those 3 years).

            So – listen to what these women have to say! There is a TON of good advice here. Maybe you are right, and law school won’t be such a bad thing for you to do. BUT – if you can’t answer the points raised here with honest self-reflection about your motives in going, then you should stay away from law school – or the site/comments, take your pick.

            Don’t go just because you decided 10 years ago that it was what you were going to do. You are a different person now than you were before you did all things you wanted to do. The point is – don’t be stubborn. Don’t go just to prove to everyone (or anyone else) that you can do it. Go because YOU want to practice law.

            Okay, done with my two cents.

      • A Different Liz

        FWIW, I think you’ll get much more out of law school, and have more realistic expectations of life as a lawyer, having lived a little. I’ve seen a lot of 25-year-olds come out of law school having never worked a full-time job (no, a summer associate position does not count) and go into shock when they realize they’ll be getting up in the morning and coming into work for a full day, fifty weeks a year, for the next 30 or 40 years. I think some would be miserable no matter where they worked.

        What I regret most in my life are the chances I didn’t take, the opportunities I let pass by, the times I played it safe, and the times I sold myself short. Be smart when you pursue your dreams, but balance that against the fact they are pursuable dreams–and pursue them. As for me, I’m really, really happy my choice to change careers from engineering to law. It took me a while to figure out what I wanted and how to get it, but it’s awesome having it.

      • CFM

        Well you have the right to think the other poster came off as aggressive, but I think you come off as immature and foolish. You asked for opinions, and you got thoughtful well reasoned ones. If you disagree with the opinions, feel free to filter them out and only take to heart the ones you agree with. But to come back with a rude post about how dare internet commenters give you advice based on what you posted? I hope you don’t take all help attempts that badly. And people react so strongly because its a huge risk, and a risk that differs very much than say, trying for a music career. If that doesn’t work out, you’ve lost time perhaps, but not much else. When you say “its just a job” you sound like you feel that even if you don’t like being a lawyer, you’ll have other outside interests, family, and friends to keep you balanced. Being a lawyer is unlike other jobs in that sometimes, you don’t get those things. Sometimes its 13 hour days, every day. And your comment that “Maybe I’ll get out of law school and realize it was a probably not the best move.” People are trying to tell you that if that is the case, and you didn’t make the right move, you now have 160,000 thats multiplying at a rate of 8% per year. It’s a decision that affects the rest of your life, not just those three years. You don’t get a do-over with law school unless you are rich, marry rich, or win the lottery.

        Your lack of gratitude for people willing to share their stories with you to help you in your decision is very off putting.

      • Ballerina girl

        I hope I didn’t seem like I was contributing to the snark. I’m having a particularly bad week at my job and was looking for a bit of commiseration, I’ll admit. But I do wish I’d known what I know now when I applied.

        All that said, there’s something very amazing about being a lawyer. When I read that a VA judge found parts of the health care bill unconstitutional, I know enough about the law to understand whether it was based on solid legal reasoning or was just political. (Just to use a recent example.) And people ask me for advice and I feel empowered.

        But I think that a lot of people have trouble coming to terms with the bad market, the vast amount of boring/exhausting jobs out there, the culture of most big law firms (you’re dispensable, etc), and the debt. It’s a struggle and lots of people find their way out of it. And if someone had told me all of this then, I’d probably have done it anyway. And in five years, I think I’ll be glad I went. It’s just something you should go into with open eyes. Sounds like you are.

        • Another Anon

          Are you there B-Girl?

          Have a friend in a similar situation to yours. What can I do to make her smile/let her know I think she’s amazing/help her out?

          • ballerina girl

            Sorry for the long delay–just tell her that it won’t always be like this. That it’ll change and that this is temporary. That is always reassuring to me.

      • eaopm3

        I may be beating a dead horse, but I’m going to reply to this thread as well:
        I wanted to go to law school. I worked in a law office for over a year before I went and still thought I wanted to go, without ever thinking about what my day-to-day life as an attorney might be like. Like a previous poster, I completely enjoyed law school. I made great friends and loved the intellectual environment. But looking back, now that I have 110K in debt at an ungodly 8%, I would have taken that money and invested in my future a totally different way. Why? Because the small firm job I have now is simply not fulfilling. I’m making hardly any money and have a huge loan payment and honestly, I’d rather be back working retail, like I did in undergrad. I am hoping to work this job I am in right now for a couple years, so that I feel that I gave this lawyer thing an honest effort. Then, I am going to look to other career choices, having, hopefully, by then, built up enough connections not to take a huge salary hit when I switch. (At my salary, any salary hit would be fatal.)
        This is a depressing way to look at it, but think about this:
        It costs you 100K to go to law school. You may come out making 60K (which, let’s face it, in this economy, is about right). Then, subtract your student loan payment from that. You are making, roughly, depending upon your repayment, 48K a year. Oof.
        This hit me about the time I started my 3L year, and I realized that there are tons more jobs I would be willing to do, and even happier doing, for 48K a year.
        I’m not questioning your motive to go to law school. Not one bit. I, like PPs, wanted to share how we feel and what we are going through in order to prepare you for what is very likely post-law school reality.

        • M in CA

          “I am hoping to work this job I am in right now for a couple years, so that I feel that I gave this lawyer thing an honest effort.”

          There is a lot of truth in this statement. OP should consider that most attorneys (most of the ones I know anyway) feel a sense of obligation to “make it work” as an attorney — much more so than they would at another job. When I left litigation for legal services (for a great job I knew I would absolutely love, which I do), I still struggled with a sense of failure — that I just couldn’t hack it as an attorney. Even if that is true (and I think it is — I’m not Type A enough to be a great litigator, which is what the client deserves), it’s still a bit of a … letdown? disappointment? to leave a field that you tried so damn hard to get into (LSAT, 3 years law school, etc.).

        • Anonymous

          It absolutely sucks to have 100k+ in debt and realize you hate your job but are trapped, but 48k a year is not exactly a pittance. I graduated architecture school 4 years ago and still don’t make that, and can’t think of many other fields where you would get that right out of school. I’m really not trying to be snarky or anything. I think it’s easy to only see other numbers from your own field and think “hey this isn’t what I expected!” and not realize by outside standards it’s really not bad at all.

          • eaopm3

            I see your point completely. 48K is nothing to complain about in the grand scheme of things. It’s not just about the salary, though – as I pointed out. It’s about the salary-to-happiness ratio. That’s why I’m not so sure it’s fair to judge salary by outside standards because of the type of work involved. Each career brings with it its own struggles and victories. I think that some of us attorneys are whining about the salary because we don’t feel it’s worth it, since we are not invested in something that we enjoy, even a little bit. Going into law school, I thought I would be happier overall and not quite so bummed about the work I would be doing. Now, though, it’s clear that I don’t love the work, which makes the salary and the debt seem crappier. (And, in my personal case as opposed to my example, my salary is the 48K, and THEN the loans come out, so I guess I should have been clearer about my situation instead of giving an arbitrary example.)

      • Another Sarah

        One of my specialties is beating dead horses, so if I may just point out something. It’s true, we don’t really know anything about you or your decision. But a lot of our responses were questions, looking for information where we could understand you and your decision. As a response to our questions, you tell us that we’re being judgmental. Well, maybe; those of us in/out of law school are wise and cynical enough to find 0L hubris petty and depressing. But understand that, with the information you gave us, it’s difficult to draw another conclusion.

    • anony

      It may be a good idea to solicit opinions of those at least 10 years out of law school. A little perspective re: the debt, the difficult job searches, and the jobs that didn’t work out before the right one came along goes a long way. I get the impression that several (certainly not all) of the law school naysayers are still in the thick of these challenges.

      • lawyerette

        The debt that people who went to law school 10 years ago had is nothing compared to the debt people have now. You just can’t even compare it. And then you’re only talking about people who are still lawyers (likely, because you may never hear of the people who aren’t lawyers now). Very biased sample..

        • Mac

          Not to mention the job market 10 years ago is completely different from the current job market. Many of those people will advise you based on their experiences, without taking into account current realities.

    • Miriam

      I would just be very careful about going to law school in this economy. Honestly, if I had to take out loans for law school, I would not be here! If you are going to be forced to take a job you hate just to pay your loans back, it’s not worth it. Regardless of what you think you can achieve, if you have to take out $150+ in loans, just don’t do it, not in this economy. All those law students are going to be miserable b/c there are no jobs and even the little money they do make in a non-legal job will just go to pay the bills. All that hard work for a J.D. you can’t even use, and law school is hard work! (ugh two more finals) Just be careful with what you do.

    • L

      Ugh, stop being so negative and condescending. Sorry said she did not come to this decision lightly–let’s respect that! Just because you don’t like being a lawyer or didn’t go to law school for the right reasons doesn’t mean that your experience is universally applicable. I happen to have loved law school and love being a lawyer (even at biglaw–yikes!). I wouldn’t recommend it for everyone, but that doesn’t mean it’s for no one.

    • LexC

      I’m on (C), anything else, as I am not connected to philly at all.

      I went to graduate school for years culminating in a phd (in a non-law subject) before going to lawschool. I also moved to Europe in that time.

      IMHO, the non-law experiences you have had – living in france, pursuing your music in Nashville, and just generally living a bit – are fantastic things to have done in their own right, and fantastic to have tried out before the law. You may be the only lawyer in the office who doesn’t have to wonder what it feels like to play music on stage, and who doesn’t experience france for the first time on a hectic 7 day vacation, concerned about experiencing the ‘real thing’ before rushing back to the office.

      You *may* also have an advantage as against your peers in the job market (experience, maturity, transferable skills etc?). Then again, you may not – it totally depends what firms you are going for, what the market looks like when you get out, who is interviewing you and how well you present yourself. So if you were going for entertainment law, or if your French is good enough you might come out on top in comparison to someone who went straight through from HS to college to lawschool.

      I love being a lawyer – it’s hard work, but, at least in my practice area, very rewarding, and OK in terms of pay.

      My view on this is that everyone considering lawschool should take the following into an honest analysis:

      3 year time-cost;
      variable money/debt-cost;
      legal market where you want to practice in;
      your objective strengths and weaknesses as a job candidate;
      the status myth – seriously, being a lawyer does not in general terms give you any social standing or respect – lawyers are dime a dozen at best and loathed at worst;

      Oh and definitely get a credit card as you need to start to build up a credit profile!

      Good luck with everything!

  12. Fiona

    Oh Corporettes, I look hideous today. I had a little bit of skin cancer removed from my face yesterday. Now I have this massive bandaid all across my nose. Fortunately no one at my office cares (one sweet partner even said “I have to go to the dermatologist next week, too!”). But… tonight is my fiance’s company holiday party tonight at his boss’s house. Any advice? (Massive bandaid. On my face.).

    • Anonymous

      Have an extra drink and don’t worry about it. Seriously. If your fiance isn’t worried about it, you shouldn’t be either. The important think is that the cancer was REMOVED!

    • Blonde Lawyer

      I think this is a situation where being “out” is easier than being quiet. Everyone is going to wonder about it and if you just put it out there right up front it takes the big elephant out of the room. If it fits with your personality you could joke “I’m the poster child of why you should wear sunscreen” or something to that effect. I’m sorry you have to deal with this though. Sounds really lousy.

      • Blonde Lawyer

        I want to clarify my comment. I didn’t mean to imply that everyone will be staring at you or something like that. I meant if you are having a conversation with someone they will likely wonder “ohhh what happened?” even if they keep it to themselves. What I meant about being “out” was when you see someone notice, just say what it is and move on.

        I hope my original comment didn’t sound too mean. I am also sure you do Not look hideous.

    • b23

      No real help, just sympathy! Everyone goes through those moments, though, so I don’t think it’s as big of a deal as you think. Good luck!

    • surrounded by lawyers

      You do not look hideous today. You look like someone who is recovering from a procedure. You look like yourself, you just happen to have a bandage on.

      Think of this just as you would think about attending a party with your arm in a sling, or on crutches. It’s not what you would choose, and of course it isn’t ideal, but it’s fine, and nobody who isn’t a total ^&%*$ is going to make a rude comment about it.

      If it were me, I’d do my hair, makeup and outfit exactly the same as I would otherwise–or as close as possible to it–to affirm to myself and everyone else that I’m not The Patient. Then I would do my best to put it out of my mind, be graceful if anyone brings it up, and have a good time at the party. Hang in there…

    • Eponine

      You had CANCER removed. Just go to the party bandaid and all and if someone asks if you’re ok, tell them you had skin cancer removed. If anyone snarks behind your back about this, they’re going to hell, so screw ’em anyway.

    • KM

      Own it. Try and laugh it off if you can?

      My sympathies are with you by the way, I had a similar experience where I had to wear an eye patch for a week (long story short – don’t pick at zits) and then had an allergic reaction to the meds associated with the reason for the eye patch. Thus, I had an eye patch plus a rash covering my entire body the first time I met my fiance’s family. I just laughed it off, there was nothing else to do.

      Just remember the important reason behind the band-aid — you had the cancer removed, which is awesome!

      • Fiona

        Ahhh thanks for that story – how awful! And thank you all for the support. Seriously, corporettes are the best. =)

    • D

      Can you get a festive bandaid? Like a snowflake or snowman print? Might as well try to work it.

      You have my condolences. My mother passed away due to melanoma (skin cancer). It sounds like you have a different kind, but I’m glad you were able to catch it and treat it. I am sure you still look lovely and healthy

    • Anon

      Oh dear. That would make me terribly self-conscious also.

      However, nearly everyone I know (I live in a Sunbelt state) has had to do this and usually people understand. If anyone asks – and probably they won’t – just say “I had to have a malignant lesion removed from my nose yesterday – thankfully, it wasn’t serious.” I would imagine everyone will completely understand. And if they don’t, they are jerks, and you should do your best to ‘accidentally’ spill a drink on them at some point in the evening.

      You took care of something important that could have killed you, had it gone on for too long. Kudos to you for taking care of it. Don’t worry about crosswise looks. Have fun at the party.

      • Anon2

        LOL at the accidental drink spilling! I need to try this sometime when someone is being particularly rude and obnoxious.

    • Louise

      Let me offer my most heart felt congratulations that this nasty thing was found and removed in time! Your health is so important, and I’m glad to hear it was just a “little bit” and is now GONE.

      Now my advice, coming from the perspective of approaching 50 years old: wear your best party dress, a festive band-aid and your sparkling smile. Years from now, you’ll look at photos from this party and say to yourself, “I thought I would be hideous in my bandage. But look, I was so pretty and young and fresh and lucky to have escaped a more serious problem.” Because you are, indeed.

      I look at old photos from parties I attended years ago, remembering ugly dresses and badly applied makeup and truly inappropriate men as dates. And it doesn’t matter, because I was healthy and loved and young, and it looked pretty darned good.

      I’m guessing your fiance, years from now, will remember this party as the one where you looked so gorgeous and he was so glad he proposed and got to spend the rest of his life with you and he was so relieved that the cancer was gone that he just wanted to dance every dance with you.

      So go! Go and be fabulous!

      • Samantha

        Not the OP but I love your advice, Louise! I want to make a note of it and show it to myself whenever I have similar qualms. :)

    • UnSub

      Each day I hear another horror story about someone diagnosed with cancer or succumbing after a long, dreadful fight.

      I’m glad that your cancer was easily removed and you will, I dearly hope, go on to a long and healthy life. If you tell the other guests at the party, I *know* they will feel the same way too. Don’t worry about it.

  13. Clueless Shopper

    Early Threadjack! I need some help ladies of Corporette. I need to buy a gift for my boss (attorney, in his 50’s, pretty much already has everything). My issue is that I’m on a budget, but I don’t want to get him something cheap that he will just toss to the side . I was thinking a nice cashmere beanie or newsboy that he can wear on his way to court since he shaves his head. I’ve already surfed the net on Ralph Lauren, Macy’s, Saks, Nordstrom, Lands End… Without any luck, I found a really nice news boy at Brooks Brothers that I really liked, but it was simply too pricey… So does anyone know where I should be looking?

    • Anonymous

      I would go food or alcohol (if he drinks). Not something personal like clothes.

      • Clueless Shopper

        He doesn’t really drink and he has stomach problems, so those are out. And he doesn’t have many hobbies, read books or watch tv/movies (can it get any tougher?) I just thought of a hat because when we went to court the other day and it was 25 degrees outside he mentioned that he didn’t have something warm and court appropriate (even if its only walking over to the courthouse from the parking deck).

        • somewherecold

          Maybe broaden your search and see if you can find a nice wool or cashmere scarf. Same idea, but for some reason I see a scarf as a little less personal than a hat.

    • Marti

      My comment apparently is being moderated due to links. But go to boutiques dot com and search for “cashmere beanie” and “cashmere newsboy.” I found decent results under $150, some as cheap as about $25, mainly for beanies.

        • Marti

          Thanks for checking. Maybe I accidentally cancelled my reply instead of posting? In any case, I found decent results on boutiques.

    • SuzyQ

      I’m just wondering why you need to buy a gift for your boss. I’ve only purchased gifts for bosses when I’ve decided to leave the job (of when they’ve left). What is the occasion? Also, I’m wondering if a group gift or lunch would be more appropriate?

      • govvie girl

        That was my question. Unless a going-away gift to one person from “everyone,” the only gift-giving I’ve seen in office settings has been a Secret Santa/White Elephant-type arrangement.

      • Clueless Shopper

        Well I work with an attorney who was a sole practitioner until I was hired and his two secretaries/paralegals. They buy him Christmas gifts every year and I don’t want to be the only one who doesn’t give him one. He is also very generous, buying us lunch quite often, letting me take extra days off for the holidays (because my family lives out of state so I have to drive home because I can’t afford to fly), and he gives very nice gifts himself (I know because we helped him shop this year for Christmas). So I just want to give him something nice in appreciation. I don’t feel obligated to do so, but I really would like to get him something that he won’t just toss to the side because its useless and/or thoughtless.

        • AIMS

          If you’re going to do it —
          BB has 15% off today only.
          But I do think hat is a bit personal (sizing for one, may be an issue).
          What about something more generic but equally useful:

          Nice pen?
          Paperweight?
          Tickets to a sporting event (date in advance)?
          Nice desktop leather planner?
          Coffeetable or useful ref. book?
          A really nice mug & some tea/coffee?

        • SuzyQ

          I am all for practical. If a co-worker was thinking about buying me a gift (I wish), I would want a $50 (or any amount) gift card to Starbucks so I can indulge in my latte habit without any guilt. You seem to know him well – anyplace he normally frequents would work well.

          Another very nice gift (but difficult on a tight budget) would be tickets to some type of game or performance since the experience is something to look forward to, enjoy, and remember long afterwards.

          I would stay away from personal stuff – almost everyone in my family has returned/exchanged sweaters and leather goods that I thought were totally perfect for them (and which I spent way too much time picking out).

          • Clueless Shopper

            I guess I’m just shopping for an extreme case here. My boss is a great guy, but he’s wealthy and not materialistic AT ALL. As I said before he doesn’t really have many hobbies (doesn’t watch TV [other than sports] and doesn’t read for pleasure… because he works a lot) and he doesn’t really eat out, so if I got him a gift card it would go to waste (he’s already admitted that he has tons of them sitting around because he never uses them).

            I just asked the secretaries and they’re pretty stumped too… He likes to graze so I think we’re just going to end up going in together on a basket of all the snacks he likes, like fruit, nuts and crackers. He’ll probably appreciate that because it’ll save him some trips to the store ;-)

          • Louise

            I think it’s very sweet that you want to give him a hat to keep his head warm. He sounds like a good boss and that you like working for him.

            I don’t think it is an overly personal gift, but shows that you were thinking of him, specifically. Those are the best gifts, even if he rarely wears it.

    • Eponine

      I got a similar hat as a Secret Santa gift for a colleague one year. I found it at Filene’s for a very reasonable price.

    • anon

      I come from the school of thought that says that one should never buy gifts for a boss, unless it is a group gift from the entire staff. Also, I think a hat counts as being an item of clothing and that is a bit too personal a gift to give your boss.

  14. stc

    I have to second the concern as to the OP’s comment that it just hasn’t worked out with where she’d like to live. If you didn’t want to do it until it matched up with where you live, you probably didn’t want to go enough to justify the debt and poor job prospects (I’m a first year associate at a firm I love, but that is 2 hours from the city I was living in during law school because that’s where I found a job. Also I have a ton of debt).

  15. chix pix

    I am a Philly girl. Philadelphia is the best-dressed city in the U.S., so be prepared for that. People go out on the street looking really good – unlike NYC.

    Penn Law School is great, but the other law schools are good, too. Villanova has always had a particularly good reputation and is convenient to downtown via suburban train.

    Today’s sweater – there’s that deep V neck again. Very beautiful, but not so beautiful if you fill it in with a blouse or cami. So what to do?

    • originally from philly....

      Philly is the best dressed city?? You must be walking around a totally different part of the city than me….

      • D

        I know. Philly is very casual. I love my blue-collar town, but it’s true. “Dressing up” is usually wearing your leather Phillies jacket.

        • Laura

          ‘ “Dressing up” is usually wearing your leather Phillies jacket.’

          LOL! my husband is from Philly and after five years living in LA I’ve finally gotten him away from his “nice evening drink out with friends Phillies hoodie” vs. “every day Eagles hoodie” trend.

      • Recent Philly transplant

        Lol. Love Philly but I agree that it’s a VERY casual town, and I can’t say I’ve seen a lot of fashionistas here.

  16. stc

    I think its more of a cardigan or jacket then a sweater you’d wear without anything under.

  17. stc

    Sorry, I mean to add: and if something pretty simple (shell, simple tank) was underneath it, it probably wouldn’t take away from the sweater.

  18. housecounsel

    Wanted to ask again . . . for those (particularly) lawyers who recommend against law school, why do you hate your jobs and/or being a lawyer? What would make it better?

    • Big Firm Lawyer

      Quitting would make it better, but there is that small problem of student loan debt. I could never repay it in any other career

    • Anonymous public interest lawyer who loves her job

      I really think most lawyers who hate their jobs but say they have no other options really haven’t looked into their options much. Five years out of law school, I make in the mid-60s, I graduated with 200K in student loan debt, and my payments are a manageable $1000/mo with my federal loans on the income-based repayment plan, which also means they’ll be forgiven when I’ve made 10 years of payments while working in the public sector. I don’t qualify for my school’s loan repayment program because I make too much, but many schools have programs that are more generous than my schools, so most public interest lawyers have that as an option to reduce their monthly payments, too. Many state and city bar associations also offer loan repayment assistance for public interest lawyers. I live in a small apartment in a trendy area of DC, I have a 401K and a savings account, I have good health insurance, I don’t travel, shop or eat out a lot, and I’m happy as a clam because I spend 45 hours a week doing work I love and I have plenty of free time for other pursuits, too.

      So when I hear my friends who make 180K per year whining that they hate their jobs but they can’t afford to make any less money, that they can’t even take a government job that would pay over $100K for a fifth-year lawyer, I think they’re really just spoiled and unwilling to give up the trappings of a corporate lawyer lifestyle. Obviously if you’re supporting a single-income family you may not have the option of taking a paycut, but strangely, people who are supporting a single-income family are rarely the people who complain.

      Of course, there is the very real issue that the job market is tight now and it can be hard for any lawyer to find a new job, but people who claim they don’t change jobs for financial reasons alone really just don’t seem credible to me.

      • guest

        You don’t travel, don’t shop, and don’t eat out — so your other pursuits would be free? I get a kick out of free pursuits like walking my dogs too, but I’m just saying: $60K salary after you’ve spent 3 years in school to get an advanced degree and you’ve been working for five years sucks!

        Another thing: if you ever (1) want to own a home and/or (2) want kid(s), those two things aren’t doable on a $60K salary (if you want to raise your kids with the possibility of private education, etc).

        I just don’t buy that $60K covers living + pleasure expenses in any metropolitan areas in the United States.

        I do agree that once you’re talking about over $100K in a government job that’s the golden combination. However, I don’t think 5 years at a big law firm is necessarily conducive to getting hired at a government job.

        • Anon

          Usually if you have kids, you have another person earning too, though. Two people with 60K jobs — not so bad. And I think the feeling that being able to provide private education for 12+ years for each of one’s kids is a baseline assumption is part of the problem here. That’s super-expensive — you shouldn’t be surprised that you’d need to be rich to pull that off. And if you don’t inherit that money, you need to work your a** off or be very lucky to make it there. I’m a biglaw lawyer in a major city who COULD afford to send my kids to private school, but we still moved somewhere where we can comfortably send our kids to public school so we don’t feel trapped. It’s not the hippest neighborhood, and my status-conscious colleagues sometimes look at me funny, but it’s a choice that’s out there.

          • RKS

            Two people with $60k jobs == one of them is covering childcare with almost nothing left of their take-home salary. Daycare in DC starts around $1000/mo for an infant, dips slightly down with preschooler, then doubles when you have kid #2. We pay our nanny $35k/yr, pretty much the going rate for a full-time, live out who’s legal. For someone with a $60k job, that would leave roughly $7k of take-home pay ANNUALLY remaining after child care.

          • RKS

            No — but you need some form of child-care for many years. I was stunned that those after-school programs from 3-5 pm cost about the same as full-day daycare. I don’t know when people get to a place of comfort with leaving their kids at home when they’re at work — 15? 17, when they’re driving? Then you get a year or so break, before college tuition hits.

          • Anon

            Your after-care program costs 35K a year? I think you should look around some more. At bottom, sit back and think about what you are saying: that it’s hard to live on 120K a year. Can that actually be true? And if so, how does everyone else pull it off?

        • Eponine

          “$60K salary after you’ve spent 3 years in school to get an advanced degree and you’ve been working for five years sucks!”

          Actually, doing work that you love and that change people’s lives for the better doesn’t suck at all. $60K is above the median income in the US, even in major metropolitan areas. And there are things in life that are a lot more important than private schools and shopping – such as being home at 5:30 to have dinner with your kids and help them with their homework. To each his own.

        • Anonymous

          Not snarking, just an observation: “$60K salary after you’ve spent 3 years in school to get an advanced degree and you’ve been working for five years sucks!” –> this made me laugh (sadly), because my friends with humanities PhDs spent twice the time in school and get paid about $60K (if lucky). It does suck.

        • Anon

          My husband and I live in a condo in a fantastic neighborhood in a major Midwestern city. We have two new cars that we are still paying off as well as some other debt we make payments on monthly. I am in school and have no significant income. He earns $40,000 a year. It’s definitely a tight budget, but with some good planning, we make it work just fine. If we had $60,000 a year to play around with that would be plenty.

        • v

          Another thing: if you ever (1) want to own a home and/or (2) want kid(s), those two things aren’t doable on a $60K salary (if you want to raise your kids with the possibility of private education, etc).

          And yet most of the people in this country do precisely that. Okay, there’s no “possibility of private education,” perhaps, but if you live somewhere with reasonable public schools, that’s hardly a tragedy. I mean, I get it, I want more money than that too, but it’s worth stepping back and looking at the situations most people live in.

        • Frump

          While I’m the first one to admit that being able to have the most choices and options in life generally requires more money, I certainly think it’s quite incorrect and presumptuous to imply that $60K is a useless salarly that is impossible to meet life milestones with. I know plenty of families who raise 2-3 kids on a single income of that level. They are not the most well dressed families, the kids aren’t going to private schools and in 10 after school activities, their cars are used- but they are certainly getting by fine and the kids are doing perfectly well, despite not having the latest and greatest. I also know people who own homes at this level of income- again, their homes are not the latest and greatest and may not be in the best areas of town, but the homes are also just fine and the families are perfectly happy.

          I think so many people in our culture confuse needs with wants, which is unfortunate because it leads to a culture of materialism where superficial things are valued more than they probably should be and people live beyond their means trying to get those things they are pressured into thinking they ‘should’ or ‘must’ have. Attitudes develop that you’re ‘not doing well’ unless you have new cars, a cell phone for all people in our family age 6 and above, the best house in the trendiest neighborhood, jeans you paid $250 for, or whatever other non-essential thing. It distorts our perceptions of what is comfortable and what we should be grateful to have.

          So, while I definitely think it’s admirable to work as hard as one personally can to ultimately make as much money as they can make while being happy and fulfilled, I don’t think there is one set, standard ‘income line’ where below it, “life sucks and is impossible.” Many things are possible with the right attitudes, life styles, and accomodations, and I think it’s often the misconception that you *need* a certain amount of money to do whatever X thing that ends up being more limiting. Because if that amount isn’t enough, what amount ever will be? Better to do the best with what you have and try to make the most of it, rather than always bemoaning you don’t have enough.

          • anon

            Frump, I think your second paragraph addresses one of several issues which may have led to our country’s economic melt-down. And it’s sad that so many *still* have not adjusted their materialistic mindsets.

            And @ guest. I am a single woman who makes a bit less than $60,000 a year. I own a home, have a car and am able to do most of things I like to do in my free time. I may have to do some bargain hunting and coupon clipping every once in a while, but I’m pretty happy.

          • Legally Brunette

            What a great post. And to give you a further perspective, my mom makes $30K a year, and has a nice home in a good neighborhood and a simple but serviceable car. However, she doesn’t eat out and she rarely shops for clothes. It’s a trade off, but it can be done.

          • Mel

            “I think so many people in our culture confuse needs with wants, which is unfortunate because it leads to a culture of materialism where superficial things are valued more than they probably should be and people live beyond their means trying to get those things they are pressured into thinking they ‘should’ or ‘must’ have.”

            Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. $60k is a little less than double the median income for a family of FOUR in my state. The vast majority of Americans are making do on less, usually much less.

            Sigh. I really thought after the recession and the supposed reboot of people’s values, there would be greater understanding of this.

            Husband and I make about $115K a year, joint. In a lot of places that would be awful, but in our area we are practically rich. We have what we need. We have enough. Neither of us is willing to work a job we hate just to get more. It’s the same conversation that was happening yesterday, about the woman’s husband who was miserable, and should she “let” him quit his job. No amount of money is worth misery. And the idea that anyone “needs” $150K a year to live is so ludicrous. Double sigh.

          • SuzyQ

            Frump – great post! I totally agree with everything you said. I think I read an article in NYT that discussed some research results about how, after a minimum (subsistence) level of income, people who make more are not happier than people who make less. It really is all about perspective and what works for you and your family.

          • Janie

            Wonderful post. I completely agree.

            Only thing to add is, not everyone wants to or likes to travel. I love it, but my mom hates it. The last time she went somewhere on a vacation was when I was 4. So I don’t think “not traveling” is automatically a sacrifice.

        • VA

          I agree with several of the commentators. My dad (single income) makes $60K in the midwest and supported my mom and four kids, has a moderate sized house in a really nice suburb with no mortgage, two cars. But, we lived very frugally, went to public school (an awesome one because of the good suburb), and didn’t really travel or eat out.

          It’s all about perspective and what you consider luxury versus mandatory in your life. Different preferences and assessments about what matters to you = different options and life choices.

          • mbs

            Yes, when I was growing up, travel was camping out at the lake 20 minutes from our house, sleeping on lawn chairs. Travel is definitely a “want” not a “need.” It’s always a good idea to buy a house in a good school district, so that private school does not become a need.

        • MC

          My parents raised three kids on a salary that fluctuated between 45k and 70k combined. This is above the national average.
          They didn’t own a house – we rented a townhouse in suburban DC. I went to public schools my entire life, got a scholarship to a private college and then went to a top ten law school. My brother went to a state university and is now getting his masters.
          I really resent it when people imply that it is impossible — or worse, irresponsible — to raise children unless you make more than 80% of people in this country.
          Being a good parent is not measured exclusively by your ability to pay for SAT prep classes or top-notch pre-school while you’re working 12-hour days. Parents who are happy with their jobs and have time to spend with their children can give their kids a happy and fulfilling child hood AND prepare them to be “successful” later on in life as well.

        • michelle

          Are you serious? I lived in one of the nicest neighborhoods in Philadelphia, ate out a lot, and played polo on a bit more than half that just a few years ago. I had a roommate and didn’t buy $500 purses, but we all have different priorities. I know numerous people who own homes and are making far less than $60, again in Philly. Many are professionals. A private education for your kids in now a necessity? The median household income is the US (which probably usually includes two paychecks) is only about $50k. $60k five years out of school, even grad school, is more than most people are making. Please get some sense of perspective.

        • Sue

          I am going to start trouble but this makes me wonder what teachers whine about. Sure, they are underpaid, but they don’t have law school loans! Many public interest lawyers make a few dollars more than teachers!

          • Anonymous

            A lot of teachers have grad school debt, and also, a lot of them are asked to actually shell out their own money to buy classroom supplies, etc, and to work really unreasonable hours – 7-4 in the classroom, then coaching a team after school, etc.

      • ER

        I would sign a LIFETIME CONTRACT for a 100K-ish govt lawyer job, with no raises or promotions.

        Please tell me how to do so…because the resumes I cast into the USAJOBS abyss either 1) don’t get read, or 2) get a quick reply that after vet’s preference was applied, I am not on the short list.

        • Frump

          1) Network: try to meet somebody in the government area/department you want to be in. All the government interviews I’ve ever had with any agency have been because somebody I knew put my resume into the recruiting system/gave my resume to the appropriate HR people.

          2) If you must utilize USA Jobs (which I don’t recommend because such a small portion of especially ‘higher end’ jobs are NOT filled through USA Jobs), copy key-words directly from the announcement into your resume/KSA file. And when I say copy, I actually mean take huge phrases from the listings and copy and paste them directly into your submissions, working in as many of those as you can. There are books written on how to write good KSA statements/government/USA Jobs applications, and I’d recommend looking into those for tips, but honestly my best advice is to NOT use USA Jobs and try to meet people in the agencies you want to be in if that’s the direction you want to go in.

          • rg

            i both agree and disagree with this. You should know people in the agencies to get a feel for what they are looking for, but ultimately jobs must be filled through USAJobs (including going through vet preference etc). The best advice I’ve heard is to network until someone write a job ad that describes you precisely, but even then you’ll need to go through the full vet preference etc selection. I know people for whom this worked b/c they were *so* highly specialized, and others for whom the vet preference took them out of the running. So it’s a crap shoot. But still network where you want to be. A lot of fed positions are also filled by contractors. That’s often an easier route to go (and one I considered but decided against).

          • Frump

            I realized I made a typo- I meant to say that a very small portion of ‘higher end’ jobs are filled through USA Jobs. I think people got my point, but I noticed the typo. Basically, I am trying to say: the vast majority of the ‘best’ jobs are not filled through the USA Job ads. The ads are legaly obliged to be written and posted, but those jobs are almost never cold-filled from random resume applications.

          • Anonymous

            Totally agree with this. My consulting firm works with government clients and they never hire anyone for a higher-level position off of USAJOBS – in fact, by the time the announcement hits USAJOBS, they have usually already identified a candidate they want. If you really want to work for the government, go in on the consultant/contractor side – it allows you to make great connections and get to know people, and then they can basically write a job description for you, as someone else said. There’s basically no way to break into a decent government job without knowing someone, unfortunately.

        • Eponine

          Frump gave good advice. I’d add that USAJOBS is going the way of the dodo, I think in 2011. But really, all the govt lawyers I know who didn’t start via DOJ honors got their jobs by networking, not by cold applying on USAJOBS. A lot of posted jobs already have a candidate identified, and even those that don’t are getting literally 3000 applications.

          • anon

            I worked as a contractor and one of my clients “headhunted” me to his agency. I agree completely, you really have to know someone who will help get you in. Also agree about copying phrases from the KSAs. Resumes are screened by HR people who I don’t think have much knowledge about what sort of skills a job involves, so can really only judge the suitability of an applicant by matching exact words. Even that can fail. I have a friend who has a Master’s and Ph.D. in subject X. He of course included this in the education of the resume you fill out on USA Jobs. He made it through the initial screening process, and then was told by an HR person that the job required background in subject X and could he confirm that he had said background? Just to underscore that unless you know someone, it can really be a crapshoot.

            That said, so far I am pretty happy I joined the feds. In my agency, at least, there is a decent amount of respect paid to work-life balance.

      • Ballerina girl

        Do you live with a significant other? I feel like that’d be the only way to make it work (in NYC at least)–but maybe not the best reason to get into a relationship!

        I agree with you wholeheartedly and after two years in big law making $180K, I’d happily take $60K doing something I love. Now if only I could find a job…

        Good luck to you!

    • Anonymous big firm lawyer who loves her job

      I also think that there is a certain culture of complaining that’s grown up in big law firms (not all of them, but many). It can get really toxic. There’s a weird one upsmanship about who is working hardest on the most unpleasant things, and is the most miserable. I think that can feed off of itself, and make people who wouldn’t otherwise be miserable feel that way. Same with the money — the longer you are surrounded by people who don’t think of 160K as a lot of money, the more reasonable that belief seems to you. It’s not to say that there isn’t plenty to complain about in law — some of the work is tedious and confrontational, and there tends to be a lot of it. And it’s no longer any more the relatively sure thing it used to be. No one likes those aspects of it. But I’ve worked at fast food restaurants, and I’ve been a secretary, and believe me — I have no complaint that someone wants to pay me six figures to be a lawyer.

      • Another anon biglaw lawyer who loves her job

        This. Totally agree about the toxic environment and the constant complaining of many big law lawyers. If you can find an area you like (I used to do corporate and now am a specialist in another area, which I have always loved and wanted to do from the beginning), bosses who respect you and respect your work, and if you can learn how to manage the hours and the stress (totally do-able), then you can have a super prestigious, very lucrative job that you love. It’s not easy but I know I’m not the only one who’s done it.

      • Lyssa

        Ironically, that toxic environment where people try to one-up each other in complaints was one of the reasons that I left my old, pre-law school (and not law related) job. There was nothing really wrong with the job; they treated us mostly fine, sometimes did stupid corporate things, but nothing major, but people just couldn’t stop whining.

        That may be why I never took the whining from big law lawyers seriously. (And probably never will, given the fact that that didn’t open up for me!)

    • L

      When I worked in biglaw, I hated it bc: (1) I did corporate work for a little while, and it was just mind-numbingly boring. Terrible, awful, no good, very bad. Try looking at 15 of the same kinds of contracts over and over again for 11 hours a day. Ugh. (2) The hours are a lot. I dealt with it by being an early-shifter – coming in at 630, leaving at 530 or so – but that is not always possible. (3) When I was able to switch out of corporate to my preferred field, the people I worked with were self-entitled waspy a-holes. (This was a problem not unique to my dept – I heard from my friends that most of the partners in other departments were jerks as well.)

      Now I have a job at a small firm, far fewer hours, and I really like the person I work with. The compensation is much, much less, however.

      • L

        Sorry, forgot. FWIW, I didn’t have any loans, so didn’t feel constrained to stay in biglaw for that reason.

    • Anonymous

      In my practice area, I hate the unpredictability of hours, the fact that I am supposed to be on-call all the time for clients, and the way a deal will take over my life for weeks and weeks at a time (14-hour days for the past 6 weeks and counting!). It might be worth it if I loved the work.

      In response to Anonymous Public Lawyer’s points — I too do not have much sympathy for young, single Biglaw attorneys with no other obligations (whether to spouse, parents, children, or others) who complain that they cannot leave Biglaw after a few years (I paid off close to $90,000 in loans in 1.5 years while living in Manhattan). But I’m not sure how many complainers fall in that category.

      • Tina

        I detest it. Biglaw litigation associate here. Part of the problem is the partner I work with most often is the classic, loves to argue for the sake of argument, 5-fo0t-nothing Napoleon-complex, litigator, that makes people groan when they think of lawyers. I can’t stand him on a personal level, I fundamentally disagree with his tactics that I find borderline dishonest, and am frustrated that even though I have been practicing for 7 years, he won’t allow me to even send an e-mail without proofreading it (and then of course, making a minor change just to demonstrate his importance). And please don’t tell me to try working with another partner – we’re a satellite office and he is the litigation partner. I do as much work with possible with attorneys from other offices, but the reality is he is my boss and there’s nothing I can do about that as long as I work here.
        Then there’s the fact that big-law litigation is an exhausting, aggressive process that I just don’t have the stomach for. Who wants to spend their days arguing with opposing counsel over discovery requests, reviewing privilege logs, and waiting for that inevitable late in the day email telling you you’re needed to jump in on a TRO? Not me.
        I hate everything about my job. I hate getting up in the morning. I hate the person I have to be at work. I am starting to hate my friends and family who tell my to “just stick it out, something else will open up.” I’ve looked everywhere I can think of – other firms, government, non-profits, in-house. I’ve tried to change careers – apparently I’m either under- or over-qualified for everything in the business world. I’ve been on more interviews than I can remember. NO ONE wants a washed-up 7th year general commercial litigation associate.
        Please, do not go to law school. It was the worst decision of my life. I regret it every second.

        • ER

          So why not quit? If you worked at Biglaw for 7 years, don’t you have a TON of cash saved up/invested? Even with 200K in loans and possibly a family to support?

          • Tina

            I certainly don’t have enough to retire. How is it quitting going to make finding another job any easier?

        • Arachna

          Quiting might indeed make it easier for you to find a job. It will let you recover yourself and energy and creativity. If you can afford 5 years out of the work force, I’d seriously recommend you take 1 and do whatever you want that sounds fun that you can afford. Then figure out what to do for a living. Unless you want to get rehired at your old position which it definitely sounds like you don’t I don’t think the gap year will make a difference. And for God’s sake! Think about being happy for an entire year!

          • Sue

            Wow! If I hated my life so bad, I wouldn’t want to live until retirement. QUIT! BTW, I only make 70 grand a year after 15 years in public interest law. And I like my life.

          • Tina

            Unfortunately/fortunately we are expecting a (surprise) baby over the summer. And I make the bulk of our salary, have the good health benefits, etc. Quitting is not really an option.

      • Anonymous Big Lawyer

        Seriously, how did you pay off $90K in 1.5 years while making $160K? After taxes, the $160K comes out to about $106K. You lived on $16K for a year and a half? I’m not being snarky–I just really find it hard to believe. Did you have someone you lived with who shared your expenses? I’ve paid down about $60K in two years (while putting another $20K into retirement) and while I’m sure I could’ve saved more, not much more.

        • lawyerette

          At $160k single you’re in the 28% tax bracket, not 33% .. doesn’t make a huge difference but it does a bit (so it’s $115,200 per year). Over 1.5 years that’s $172,800 in earnings. So that means she lived on $82,800 over 1.5 years, or $55,200 a year after taxes. I think that’s doable for a single person in New York who is careful about needless spending.

          That said it’s much easier if you have a partner who has no loans.

          • lawyerette

            oh yeah and then there’s the bonus. that could’ve been very substantial a few years ago, even after taxes.

          • lawyerette

            That did not include any retirement savings, but if she wanted to do the max in retirement ($16,500 per year or $24,750 over 1.5 years) then she would’ve earned $154,980 after taxes in those 1.5 years and after paying off 90k, lived on $43,320 a year. Definitely not as nice but I do know people living in NY on $35k *before* taxes and they’re doing fine.

          • Anonymous Big Lawyer

            God, that makes me depressed that I haven’t saved more. But I did live in NY on $28K about six years ago and know that it’s possible to live on WAY less than most big firm lawyers seem to think. I just think it’s hard not to adjust your spending when you’re making that kind of money–especially as you enter your 30s.

        • Anonymous

          Did not live with anyone or share expenses. Entire bonus, both years, went to loans. I did have some additional income the final couple months (about $10,000) — sorry, did not mean to mislead.

          I didn’t go out much. Or buy much. Did not have cable. Did not have internet. Did not have a land line. Seamless nights meant I had lunch the next day, if I was careful to halve the portion. Otherwise, PB&J and an apple. And so on. I did treat myself to a gym membership.

          It’s not a lifestyle I’d care to repeat, but it got the job done.

          • Anonymous

            I maxed out 401K as well. Lawyerette, I admire and appreciate your precision!

          • lawyerette

            Anonymous – Thanks! I’m a newbie Big Lawyer myself, and I’m here first and foremost to pay off loans. However I do love to treat myself and this is a problem :) I’ve figured out how much to pay off loans this way though: by looking at how much post-tax income I really need (or want to give myself). In my case, my husband and I are planning to live on a 55k combined salary, which will allow us to max out our 401ks and set aside 90k in the next year to use to pay student loans and for savings (not 100% of it will go to loans).

          • Anonymous Big Lawyer

            Bravo! Seriously, I’m really jealous. I wish I had been more disciplined budgeting from the get go. I suppose it’s never too late, though I’m hoping to be out of this job soon.

          • lawyerette

            It’s definitely never too late! There is a cost to being a bigfirm lawyer, you do need certain attire/grooming etc. and at some point, if the hours are bad enough you need certain things (in my case, because of my building, a laundry service is a “need” I have determined). It’s a neverending battle in my opinion. I am a huge spender and love to shop ridiculous things I do not need. However, thinking about this constantly keeps me in check. It feels good to be able to pay off a loan completely (like I just did with a bonus check) and I try to hold on to that feeling more than the feeling of owning something I’ve wanted for exactly 30 seconds. But it’s a battle, and sometimes we lose. The opportunity remains though, to win the next battle :)

          • Anonymous

            I want to cheer on everyone who is trying to pay down massive amounts of debt so they can leave Biglaw. It’s a WONDERFUL feeling to send in that last check and think to yourself “I’m free.” You’ll get there.

    • nonA

      Clients. They treat you like crap, don’t respect you or your time, resent paying your bills, call you up and argue whether it really took you “that long” to do some incredibly complex legal analysis of the problems they get into out of their own stupidity, and think that, because they pay these large bills, they own you. They set unreasonable, unrealistic timelines without consulting you that cayse you to end up having to work 18 hour days to meet it, and you can’t say no because they will take their work elsewhere.

      OK, rant over, and not all clients are like this, but its been a particularly bad few weeks for me, including a client who dumped something on me at Friday at 3 and, when I told them I would turn something to them on Monday (the project was large enough that this would still ential significant weekend work) said, no, i need it no later than Sunday morning. Until and unless you are the partner whose client that it is, you are not allowed to say no.

      • lawyerette

        I feel for you. And I know exactly what you’re talking about. You hit the nail on the head about what makes working in biglaw so stressful. Lack of control because other people think they own you (sometimes it’s not the crazy client, it’s the crazy partner who is OCD or just likes to see people jump).

    • Lyssa

      I don’t hate my job, but I’m really frustrated with the fact that I wasn’t able to get anything like I expected.

      (I’ve given this whine before, so ignore it if you’ve seen it from me before). I went to a good mid-range school, top 10% of the class, journal, prior work experience, and a clerkship. I dreamed of going to big law and doing med mal defense, and thought that with those bona fides, it would be wide open to me. Then the economic world collapsed.

      No offered both summers. Got the clerkship, which was great, made a lot of great contacts there. Got a lot of very polite phone calls and personal letters saying that they’d love to hire me, but no offers. Two years of tortured rollar coasters panicing about impending unemployment (My 3L year and then the year of the clerkship). A lot of feeling down about the fact that I did everything right and it wasn’t supposed to be like this.

      Now, I’ve joined with a solo who has a building practice, and I’m contracted with another solo for extra research and writing, and trying to bring in as much business of my own as possible (so far, not so much). I’m making some money, but I’m not working nearly as much as I should/could/expected to, never sure where the next paycheck is coming from, constantly feel like I don’t know what I’m doing and have no support group, and not sure if I’ll ever be able to have kids (We’re anti-daycare, so have been holding off until we can have hubby leave his job. Which, again, we expected to be much sooner than this.)

      In short, this might work out; I think there’s a good chance that I’ll be ahead of my peers in 5–6 yrs. But I’d kill for a biglaw job.

      • E.

        Better to have the kids and let them spend some time in daycare than no kids at all, no? Or do you really believe their lives will be so horribly ruined by daycare that it’s better they not come into existence? I’ve definitely heard people admonish working parents that if they can’t raise their own kids, they shouldn’t have had them, but those were mostly holier-than-thou stay at home parents. Surprised to hear someone prepared to make this choice.

      • Lana Lang

        I am interested why you are anti-daycare – it seems to me like a crucial opportunity for children to learn vital social skills by interacting with their peers outside of the family. No judgment and also I don’t have kids and don’t intend to have any, just curious.

      • Lyssa

        Wow, off-topic? I just added that to explain why we feel like we have to wait.

        E- No, obviously I don’t feel like kids’ lives would be so horribly ruined by daycare, but I do think that it’s a far less than ideal situation. I do think that people who want to have both parents work high-power jobs really are being ridiculous if they want to have kids and not have their work lives change (or, even better, expect their co-workers to pick up the slack, which I’ve seen a lot). So, yeah, I do think that if they can’t raise their own kids (not that I think reasonable day care isn’t raising your own kids, but, again, if both parents are biglaw lawyers or similar, then they’re really not raising their own kids), they shouldn’t have them.

        I don’t think day care is completely out of the question, though. Just really not how I want to do things. As things progress, I can see myself getting weaker on it, so we’ll have to see how things go.

        Lana- Yeah, it’s great for kids to learn social skills. Kids, though, not babies- that’s my main concern. The research I’ve seen is pretty clear that babies need that one to one attention. Once they have some ability to interact and express themselves, I think some daycare is probably fine- I wouldn’t have a problem, I don’t think, when the kid is 3-4 (as long as both parents aren’t working crazy hours and such). But they’ve got to get through the baby part, first!

        But, ultimately, as far as I can tell, the whole “kids need social skills from daycare” is pretty much right up there with “it’s better for the kids to have their parents divorced then to live with parents who aren’t really happy with each other.*” It’s something people tell themselves to make themselves feel better about making a decision that they deep down know is being made for their sakes, not for their kids’. Kids of stay at home parents can still have a lot of opportunities to gain social experiences, and they generally do so just fine.

        (Of course, I’m sure that whoever reads this who puts their kids in daycare 60 hours a week is a really great parent and I am completely out of line to ever question anything they do, and that if I dare to suggest that I’d like to do things differently, I’m being horribly judgmental, etc. and should probably never be allowed to express an opinion ever again)

        :)

        * Yes, of course parents should get divorced when one party is a horrible person or such.

        • setting the record straight

          Wow, Lyssa. Lucky for you if your parents had a good marriage. My parents’ marriage was awful, and I wish they had gotten divorced a decade before they did, instead of trying to “stay together for the sake of the kids,” appearance, and finances. There was a big stigma against divorce then, but they sure needed one. They finally got divorced after the last kid was in college and are now married to people who suit them much better.

          It’s only in therapy that I am realizing as an adult, I have no idea what a functional adult relationship looks like, and that I dated a string of men who didn’t treat me as well as I (and all of us) deserved because I thought that’s what relationships were supposed to be like. Instead of a decade plus of strained family dinners, simmering tension, and the message that being happy is a bonus and not something that should be expected or demanded as one trudges through life (which has actually, ironically, enabled me to survive in biglaw as long as I have), all of which caused me psychological damage and a great deal of anxiety, I wish my parents had just gotten the divorce they needed once it was clear they were not happy.

          In this instance Lyssa, you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • ADS

            Are you me? Because I could have written this word for word.

            And I’ll just also add that if my parents hadn’t been so anti-daycare, my mom could have stayed in the workforce, and could have thrown my dad out a lot sooner instead of staying because she was worried about being a bag lady in her old age.

            It’s fine to throw off a flippant “Yes, of course parents should get divorced when one party is a horrible person or such,” but people don’t get divorced because they’re bored. They get divorced because they can’t live happily together, and even good and decent people can become horrible people when they feel forced to remain in a bad relationship.

          • Lyssa

            My parents fought constantly for a time and considered getting divorced, but didn’t. They were mature enough to behave like adults about the situation. I’m sorry that others are not. A couple can easily avoid making the kids miserable if they put the effort into it.

          • ADS

            I’m very glad that your parents had a great relationship that went through a difficult phase (as all relationships do) but I will gently suggest that your very limited experience clearly does not make you an expert on what is best for children when their parents are NOT in a great relationship.

            Suggesting that other people’s parents who were not able to make it work were simply “not being mature,” and that keeping the kids from being themselves miserable when the parents are miserable is “easy” is not only hurtful, it is insulting. You would do well to remember that you own experience in such matters is non-existent before passing judgement on others.

            I wish you the best in making your own decisions.

        • Anon for This

          Seconding setting the record straight’s comment, although all of us are entitled to our own opinions, I think you need to be careful about making such snap judgments before you’ve ever (a) actually had a child and dealt with a reputable day care; or (b) been in a family where it really was better (REALLY MUCH BETTER) when the parents got a divorce (I put myself in this category).

          I’m telling you this because I was once the same as you: no day care, no divorce. The world was black and white, but then, things changed and I felt a little, umm, well embarassed for not being more open-minded.

          Just my own opinion.

          • Anon 16

            Your posts on this site show that you are NOT open-minded. You throw out these random comments about keeping an open mind, but then you make comments about how people can make a marriage work if they really want to. That is NOT open minded. You, fortunately, had parents who worked it out. Others did not. Your experience is no better/more valuable than anyone else’s. If you don’t want to take Anon for This’ opinion, you don’t have to. She/he was writing to offer you another opinion, much like the opinion you were offering yourself. There is no need to be nasty about it.

        • Ann

          My son loves his daycare. He gets bored on the weekends being home with just us. I was also anti-daycare but quickly figured out, after trying it, that staying at home was going to drive me nuts, and my husband wasn’t on board to do it either.

          Totally agree with the “don’t judge it till you have kids.” Not trying to pile on here, but you really don’t know what you’re talking about if you haven’t had kids and actually faced the choice of having to put them in daycare. No offense.

          • ...

            No offense, but this is a blog. Where people post their opinions. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you don’t want other’s opinion, don’t make such judgmental remarks on an anonymous internet blog.

        • SuzyQ

          Lyssa – if you are anti-daycare, then why not have your kids now, when you have more time and it’s harder to find a job in BigLaw? Then you can take care of your babies and then go back to full-time work in a few years when the economy improves?

          • Lyssa

            Because we planned both my and my husband’s careers for me to be the breadwinner. Seriously, guys, this post was about why people hate being lawyers/regret going to law school (My reason being that my expectations, which were reasonable at the time we made the decision, got tossed out the window when the economy went south); can’t we save the how we want to raise our kids discussions for the mommy-blogs?

        • E

          Eh, the whole thing was off topic to begin with. :-) Thanks for the followup on your logic. Was just curious/interested and hope I didn’t offend you!

        • Anon

          Let’s leave this poor woman alone. She didn’t set out to judge anyone — in fact, I was kind of relieved to see someone express that view who was practicing what she preached — actually not having kids until she could do it in the way she wanted instead of just sitting back and criticizing other people who were making hard choices in their own lives. And she’s even open to the idea of daycare later on, so she’s hardly a zealot. She might even find, after she has kids, that there are ways to have a high-powered job that still allow you to “raise your own kids” and not to impose on your co-workers. DH and I do it — it’s not easy, and it involves a lot of sacrificed sleep/hobbies/friendships/trips to the gym on the part of the adults. But we are able to put those burdens on ourselves, instead of our kids or our co-workers. Anyway, she seems a genuine and open-minded sort of person, and not someone who should be discouraged from expressing her views, even though I don’t agree with them all.

          • Anon for This

            I would just like to say for the record that I was not in any way trying to discourage her from expressing her views. Rather, I was attempting to share my own story that was very similar, and hopefully just throw in an opinion from someone who felt EXACTLY the way she did about 10 years ago (and subsequently took a step back and wished I had kept a more open mind).

            This a blog about sharing opinions – all different opinions – between intelligent women. No one should be discouraged from sharing their opinions here – not Lyssa, not me, not you, and not anyone who chooses to express their own opinion in diagreement with Lyssa (or anyone else for that matter).

      • Emily I

        The kids-daycare thing is a very, very personal choice. I always wanted kids, but never dreamed of sending them to daycare. Now that I have three, I am lucky that I have a family member who cares for my kids. My sister, however, does send her kids to daycare. As I said, that’s something I thought I could never do. But after seeing her two boys thrive in their top-notch daycare center, I think I’d be just fine sending my kids to an equally good place.

        The cost of daycare is an entirely different matter, though. I know my sister spends a very larger percentage of her check on child care expenses!

        Bottom line, I don’t think there’s a “right” choice for everyone. You just have to do what feels right for you – having kids when you planned to, waiting to have kids, not having kids. My advice would just be not to get locked into one idea of what it right for you. What if your hubby does stay home with your kids and discovers he’s miserable? What if you have kids and decide you want to stay home yourself? Like most things, decisions about having (or not having) a family are rarely made in a vacuum.

  19. RoadWarriorette

    Question: My sister is getting married (yay!) and this weekend is her bachelorette party in Chicago. I found this very cute gray tank with pearl embellishments around the neckline (thank you Nordstrom Rack Groupon!) but I’m not sure what to wear over it. Thoughts?

    Love this cardigan/jacket!! I will definitely keep my eye out for something similar, since I am not an XS :)

    • rg

      Dark jeans. Cute (and I’d go with colorful) heels. Embellished clutch with a strap (so you can hang it over your shoulder rather than set it down while dancing etc.). Dangly earrings since the neckline negates a necklace.

      And since it’s Chicago, you’ll need outerwear, but keep in mind that it’ll need to be checked or stashed somewhere when you’re in bars/clubs. So I’d go for practicality rather than bringing out your nicest coat only to have a drink spilled on it.

    • Eponine

      I’d do a shawl or a open cardigan so that you don’t cover up the pearl embellishments. You’re likely to take it off once you’re in the bar, anyway. Make sure it can be scrunched up and stuck in your purse.

      • nonA

        Chicago, this weekend, you will definitely need something warmer than a shawl or open cardigan unless you are using a car service and seriously only going to be outside for about 5 seconds.

        • Eponine

          Well, I assume she will be wearing a coat. I don’t think she’s asking for advice on what coat to wear.

    • KM

      I’m in Chicago and I’d advise you to wear shoes that have been treated with weatherproofer or shoes you don’t mind getting covered in salt from the sidewalks. Also, don’t forget a hat, gloves, and a scarf since it has been very cold this week.

  20. Junebug

    In Biglaw, the work is tedious and nitpicky, but not interesting or challenging. You work with a lot of characters, most of whom are dislikable and care little for you. In exchange for your oversized salary, you are expected to be constantly on call. You typically work awful hours. There is a lot of drinking, backstabbing, undercutting, shirking, and overloading.

    There isn’t an easy way out. The study of law, at least at top schools, doesn’t prepare you for the practice of law. Rather, it funds professor research. Then you work, but not on things that would permit you to branch out. Your degree isn’t especially portable unless you are very entrepreneurial, self-confident, and, too often, good at BSing. A lot of people go into law because they want a career mapped out for them, but the truth is that it won’t be, because most people leave early on because they can’t stand it or the firm says it’s time to go.

    The money and prestige are somewhat addictive, and at least in big cities, there aren’t intermediate alternatives. Starting jobs pay either $50K or $160K. It’s hard to find a decent job that pays $75K, $100K, or $125K in exchange for more reasonable hours. You’re one among many in your class, and you’re pretty fungible. Plus, most of your clients are not great institutions; rather, they are oil and gas companies, car companies, hedge funds, financial institutions, telecom giants, and famous jerks. There isn’t much reward, except for the money, and it’s hard to maintain a social life.

    Meanwhile, government jobs are scarce these days (I know, I’m looking; most cities and states have hiring freezes imposed, and even the federal government isn’t hiring many newbies, at least in the areas I’m qualified for/interested in). Nonprofit jobs are similarly scarce, and the pay isn’t great, although the hours are better. And honestly, the work isn’t always that much more rewarding. Your clients can be jerks, or their cases can be extremely depressing. And you go home and feel like you are not really making any progress…and your classmates in Biglaw are going out drinking, dining at fine restaurants, etc., and you wonder if you made the wrong choice because look at how successful they are.

    Happy lawyers exist. But I really don’t know anyone in my class who is happy/satisfied/planning to stay long-term, except maybe one friend who came in knowing she wanted to go into a very specific sector that she is passionate about, and then managed to make it happen despite professionals telling her to take the more traditional route and “gain some experience in Biglaw.” (Of course, her SO is unemployed and barely even looking for a job at this point.) My Biglaw friends like the money but little else, and are terrified of layoffs/firings. Public interest friends are unemployed or freaked out about finances considering their low-for-law-loans salaries.

    Very few people knew what going to law school entailed, or what being a practicing lawyer entailed, and I think everyone’s dissatisfaction is exacerbated because the job market is terrible and it’s especially hard to see a way in (if you are unemployed) or out (if you are employed).

    It would be better if we had more choices in terms of practice and salary/time-commitment, if we had developed useful skills in law school, and if we had known what the industry entailed before we committed to entering it. A lot of this is our collective fault, for being uninformed and relying on TV stereotypes about the lawyer’s life. But that doesn’t make our situation more palatable, much less solvable. And then we try to warn people not to make our mistakes, and they don’t listen because they think things will be different for them — they are so smart, so passionate, so informed, etc., that they are simply not susceptible to the same disappointments that have surprised all of us.

    • nonA

      Co-sign.

      And if we sound strident, angry and over-the-top in our “being a lawyer is miserable” complaining it is because we say these things to young, fresh, chipper “I want to go to law school” types, they refuse to believe that what we say will ever apply to them, and then 4 years later we run into these same people and they say “I really wish I had listened to your advice.”

      • anon

        Yes, thank you nonA. Also, seeing what seems like 9 out of 10 of law school classmates absolutely hate the job.

    • Anon

      Just curious — what job do you guys wish you had that you could get after 3 years of training and would pay you 6 figures? Don’t say finance, because DH is in that field, and it’s worse on all these metrics (I’m amazed how they talk to each other), and less stable (people are constantly getting fired). Or have you come to re-evaluate your salary priorities?

      • In finance

        Certain areas of finance aren’t that bad! My research job at a buyside firm is interesting and the people are by and large fine. (Though my significant other is a biglaw lawyer in an area most people would consider painfully boring and he’s not at all miserable either, so maybe we’re both just cut out for the corporate world.)

      • Junebug

        I don’t necessarily need a six-figure income, especially not in my early years. But I need some balance between good hours and reasonable pay. Let’s say that, given the time I’ve spent in school, I could work 40 hours/week for $45K, or 60 hours/week for $100K, although the truth is that these numbers are made up. But you get the idea — I will work for less money if you let me have a life outside the office. And for a lot of grads, the issue is that every time Biglaw starting salaries go up, law school tuitions go up. So if school were cheaper, grads wouldn’t be expecting/demanding/needing/”deserving” such big salaries, at least not in their first years.

        I didn’t go to law school because of the money, and in fact I didn’t know what a typical starting salary was until well into 1L year. Rather, I went to law school because the following careers didn’t really appeal to me at the time, given my snobby/lazy/naive 21-year-old mindset:

        -teacher — too girly, not prestigious enough (now I am seriously considering this)
        -doctor — too many prereqs and so many unknowns for so many years (in retrospect, I should have done this)
        -accountant — too boring/don’t really know what it is
        -professor — too many years of being a student and writing BS papers (feel this way even more now that I know how useless most tenured law profs are to the world)
        -nurse — why not just be a doctor (in retrospect, this would be great, too)
        -psychologist — better to be a psychiatrist
        -business — absolutely zero interest
        -consulting — don’t even know what this is
        -nonprofit/fundraising — did this, hated it
        …
        –law school — easier and shorter than med school and then your life is like Ally McBeal’s/you can fight for justice/you can go into politics/you can go into business/you can do anything you set your mind to because your degree will be so portable.

        Thus: I took the LSATs, did surprisingly well, got into all the schools I applied to, and then, like a sheep, simply enrolled, assuming I was on track for a happy and fulfilling adulthood. Epic mistake.

        P.S. I realized my mistake the first week of school, and I called my parents sobbing, wanting to drop out. They (both non-lawyers) convinced me not to because they believed all the BS stated above. And I believed them.

        • Anonymous

          I feel you.

          You can still be on track for a happy and fulfilling adulthood. If you wanted to fight for justice, go into business or go into politics, you can still do so. Pay down your loans, build up some savings, and start laying the groundwork for leaving Biglaw. Part of having a happy and fulfilling adulthood is acting like an adult.

        • Anon

          I teach in a law school. I will say, without reservation, that the kids who go to law school primarily for a negative reason — that every other job sounds bad to them — are almost always the ones who hate it, and the profession.

      • anon

        I don’t need a 6-figure job. I really thought I wanted to go to law school, and to be a lawyer. I still do, but I couldn’t find a law job after graduation, and am currently working politics. In retrospect, I realize I could have started in politics right after college and be ahead career-wise of where I am having gone to law school first. So I really wish I’d just skipped the law school and debt and gone straight into what I’m doing now.

    • Ann

      Just wanted to say this is a really well-written, thoughtful post and I learned a lot from it. It answered some questions I had about lawyers. Thanks.

    • Anon2

      I like what Seth Godin has to say if you can’t find a job upon graduation and have actually done some of these things while working (learning a programming language and growing an online community). Build up other skills, get out and meet people, present at community events/ orgs, etc. Ignore the law school quip at the end, though! I often look at Kat’s example of venturing off the beaten path – there are so many options out there and I bet she had no idea where starting a blog would lead.

  22. Anon

    After leaving Big Law, I no longer hate being a lawyer. But I certainly don’t love it. I make a very comfortable living and can see myself doing this for the rest of my life. But I’m one of the lucky ones.

    My advice to all the people who tell me they want to go to law school is to think really hard about why they want to go. And if they want to go because, like me, they didn’t know what else to do with a history degree, I highly encourage them to rethink their choices. If there is some career that you could think of doing that you would enjoy, try that first. And if you still want to be a lawyer after that, so be it. But at least then you won’t spend six figures and the rest of your life wondering whether you would have enjoyed doing X better than reviewing contracts for demanding clients 12+ hours a day.

    • Anon for This

      FWIW I was considering Law School until I started reading Corporette regularly, and realized that my life would not be a cross between a JCrew catalog and a TV legal show.

      Thanks for saving me $160k.

  23. Anon2

    I went to policy school instead of law school and work in corporate government relations while my classmates ended up in public agencies, private firms (mostly consulting), and non-profits.

    I don’t make six figures (but am not too far off) and am usually out by 5pm unless it’s a really busy week.

    After reading this article yesterday (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/business/12yec.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepage) I realize there are so many options out there that I never really thought about – there are recent grads learning new skills to start their own businesses.

    Is entrepreneurship dead in law? It’s such a specific area/ profession that it seems like you could build up some kind of small business and fill a niche.

  24. Ballerina girl

    I realize this might not get responses at this hour of the day, but I feel like I could use some of this group’s wisdom.

    As I said above, I’m pretty miserable at my job at a big law firm. I often work long hours, I work with some intense personality types that require a lot of coddling and require a lot of attention. I think it’s generally made me depressed all over. I’ve taken anti-depressants in the two years I’ve been here, and just generally lost my excitement/hope about my life. I think it’s gotten in the way of me being in a relationship, and it’s made me feel like I can’t give priority to the things I care about in my life.

    I have applied to a few public interest jobs and have some leads (but no offer yet). I also have $120K in debt, though I have $25K in the bank (I’m waiting to put that towards my loans until I know for sure I won’t be getting loan forgiveness from my law school) and another $25K in retirement.

    The question is this: if given the chance to work for a nonprofit (that would pay about $60K a year), should I jump at it or should I try to stick it out another year or two here and pay down more of my loans? The plan was to do two years, pay down a lot of my debt, get myself set up in terms of an apartment, etc. and then take a huge pay hit to work in public interest (I’d like to keep it vague because I’m paranoid I’ll be discovered).

    The thought of staying here makes me want to cry. The thought of having that much debt and potentially screwing myself financially in the long term does too, but slightly less so (at least today). I worry that if I stay in big law for too long, I’ll lose all my pre-law/law school experience in the public interest area I’d like to work in and just be another law firm lawyer–dime a dozen–and be stuck forever. Oh, and I’m 32.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    • Anonymous

      Take a moment and read your posts on this thread with the eye of a stranger. You’ll see someone who is so far from the sun she can’t imagine an end to the darkness. There is an end. Do for yourself what you would advise a friend to do. Don’t wait for happiness.

      • Ballerina girl

        Thank you, you’re totally right. Reading some of the other posts made me freak out about my debt. Thank you for your perspective.

    • Anon for This

      Agree with Anonymous below. Remember, you only have one life. This is it.

    • ER

      At what interest rate(s) are your remaining loans? If possible, I would place a huge priority on making extra payments to higher interest loans while building up more cash reserves.

      I’ve been in MidLaw for 2 years and have almost 100K in the bank. This is making less than Biglaw and no bonus, while paying down my loans and giving financial help to my parents.

      You can save more, and doing so will give you a lot more flexibility to leave.

      • ballerina girl

        My loans are at different rates, but I’ve got about $45K at 6.2% (which are my priorities). The rest are between 3-4.5%. I’m on a 10 year repayment plan and have put an extra $12K toward the higher interest rate loans.

        I know I could have saved more (trust me, I feel guilty enough as it is) but I live in New York (maybe you do too) and have made about $45K in loan payments in those two years. So it’s $45K in loan payments plus $45K in savings (including retirement). I should also add that the one bonus I have received was the equivalent of one paycheck so it was hardly the big law bonuses you hear about.

        Tell me, though, how you’ve managed to save so much. Do you live in NYC? Do you live alone or do you share your expenses with someone else? How significant were your loan payments?

        Sigh. Well, I’m sure if we compared notes, you’d be doing a lot more to save than me, but I still suspect there are some conditions that have made it a bit different.

    • Legally Brunette

      Life is too short. You sound so unhappy and miserable, and it’s simply not worth it. Find a more enjoyable job and make some realistic financial decisions, curb your spending in certain areas, save like crazy, etc. You may not be able to buy as much as you can now but you’ll have more time to enjoy life. You can do it.

      • ballerina girl

        Thank you, I really appreciate that. I’m not great at sticking to a budget with this salary (despite knowing that it’d have helped) but I’ve spent plenty of years living on much less, so I know I can make that work.

        This is why I love this blog–some great people on here!

    • kz

      You mentioned loan forgiveness from your law school. If it turns out you can get some loan repayment for public interest from your school, I would consider leaving. It doesn’t sound like it’s worth being miserable. You could also put the loans on a longer repayment plan–not ideal, of course, but if you’re happier at your job, it might be worth taking longer to pay off.

      • ballerina girl

        Oh yes, if loan forgiveness (from my school or federal forgiveness) don’t work out, I’m putting these bad boys on the 20 year repayment plan. Thanks for your advice!

    • Lyssa

      It’d be a good idea (and would probably make you feel better) to run some month to month numbers- how much per month, considering loan debt, rent, groceries, reasonable entertainment, clothing, etc, do you need to live each month. If that amount is in line with what you are considering leaving your job for, you might want to try living on that amount each month (and socking the rest in savings- add that you the 25K you already have, and you’ve made a huge dent in your loans).

      But I agree with everyone above. Having read your posts, it’s clear that you should be aiming for a change. Good Luck!

    • Anonymous

      I’m coming to this a bit late, but you say that the thought of having that much debt and possibly screwing yourself financially makes you want to cry. As someone who graduated with over 150K debt and makes less than 70K in a public interest job, I know something about being in that situation. And I want to tell you that you’re far from screwed.

      You have 25K in the bank – don’t apply it to your loans. Just keep it in savings as an emergency fund. That way, you don’t need to worry about saving for an emergency once you start your public interest job, when it will be much harder to build up savings. Whatever extra money you can save in your public interest job, you can put toward your loans (if this makes financial sense – if you are eligible for loan forgiveness it may not), or toward buying a condo, a vacation, etc. Having this nice, big emergency fund will give you great peace of mind and you’ll be much better off than most public interest lawyers (if I got laid off next week I’d only be able to make it a month without having to borrow money). You won’t actually *have* to save any money if you find it hard to make ends meet while still saving on your public interest salary. Just keep contributing what you can to your retirement account and you’ll have nothing to worry about.

      As far as the mental burden of having that much debt, sometimes it stresses me out too. But if I take a deep breath and look at it on a day to day basis, I realize it’s nothing to worry about. I have enough money to pay all my bills and have reasonable amounts of fun too. 65K a year and single, even with my monthly loan payments, still puts me in a pretty comfortable financial situation compared to most of the country. And if I’m fine on a day to day basis, why worry about the future, which is out of my control anyway?

      I hope this helps. It sounds like you’re miserable and you really should make the move to a better work environment. Good luck.

      • Ballerina girl

        Thanks so much–this is food for thought. I’ve been holding off using my savings to pay down my loans because it would actually be a bad decision financially if I were to get loan forgiveness. There’s a deadline that is approaching and if I don’t make it, I will probably use $15K of my savings to eliminate one of the higher interest loans. What’s great about that is that it would reduce my monthly payments by $450, which could go toward the other loans, etc. But I do think I’d want to keep $10K as a reserve for emergencies.

        I think that I can make it work. Mostly I just kick myself for not living like a nun and saving a lot more, but what’s done is done. I definitely fed my pain/hatred of my job with going out to dinner with friends, etc.

        At the end of the day, I think that you do what you have to do. The debt sucks, but it won’t be around forever and I think I can get it to the point where, between paying off one of the crazier loans and changing my repayment plan, I can treat it like a mortgage. And eventually, I hope, I will have a partner to share my rent and living expenses with, which would help a lot.

        Thanks for all the advice–rereading my earlier posts, it’s clear to me that I need to make a change despite the financial implications of it. Law school and law firms (as well as $140K+ in debt) will make you risk adverse but you never gain anything in life without risking something first.

        • Another Anon

          Non Profits are not the garden of eden. I worked for one and hated it.

          • ballerina girl

            I spent many years interning and working for nonprofits before law school. I don’t think they’re all the garden of eden, but I do think that doing work you care about and feel inspired by is.

  25. another possible law school applicant

    Hi, Corporettes,

    I have been contemplating attending law school to pursue government work for a while now, so I am pleased to have come across this thread. Could anyone recommend schools that are known for sending their graduates to work in federal positions, besides Georgetown? At first, I was only looking at Top 14 schools, because I have a high GPA and am expecting a high LSAT score, but I’ve noticed that some schools (such as Columbia) tend to send a very large percentage of their graduates into Big Law.

    On a tangent, is there anyone reading this thread who works in Big Law and is content (possibly even happy) with her work? If so, would you be able to articulate what you enjoy about your job, since many of your Big Law peers seem so miserable?

    • lawyerette

      What kind of “government work” are you seeking? The federal government and state governments combined probably employ more than half of the people in this country, so “government work” is a huge umbrella. If you want to work for the federal government, being in DC would be most helpful since you can make connections with people who might actually hire you / be an introduction to someone who might hire you – there. But don’t count on your school to get you that type of job. You’ll have to hussle.

      I’m in Big Law and so far enjoy it fine (it’s only been a few months), but the lack of control (which is very inherent in litigation/corporate practices) is the main complaint IMO. That and worrying about hours. And ridiculous demands that don’t even need to be met as quickly as they are demanded (and you feel like there is no way you can do a good or even decent job in such short time frame) … the first and last parts can actually be found for most people in big businesses, but most people do not realize that.

    • Two cents

      Most DC area schools send students into the federal government. Shooting for the top 14 is a good idea, but I agree with posters above who said that you should also strongly consider going to a lower ranked school if they give you a big scholarship. The value of a debt free existence cannot be taken lightly.

      I worked in Big Law last year and will be going back next year. I really, really enjoyed my time there. I was extremely lucky to fall into a practice area that I enjoyed and where the partners were very respectful of my time. I also had the chance to do a lot of brief writing, which is exactly what I love to do. I did have to work longer hours and some weekends, but I definitely made time to have fun as well. Please don’t think that everyone in Big Law is miserable.

      As an aside, I realize that we all don’t want to out ourselves, but I am so curious to find out WHERE all of the folks who are so miserable are working. NY firms perhaps? Or known DC sweatshops like Kirkland?

      • Co-sign

        Same — I am a fourth-year litigation associate at a big east-coast firm (not NYC) and I am pretty happy. In fact, reading these comments sort of freaks me out that maybe at some point the tide will turn? I work for a great group of lawyers, generally work on interesting things, and feel like my time is largely respected. Not to say there aren’t times where I work late nights and weekends, but it’s not all the time, and in general I have the flexibility to take vacations, see friends, and pursue the hobbies that are important to me. So I agree — it’s not true that everyone in Biglaw is miserable. Also, I should note that I am NOT a super Type-A, adversarial type — quite the opposite in fact — nor do I embrace long hours. But I figure with all jobs you take the good with the bad, and for me at least, the good has outweighed the bad so far.

    • Lyssa

      Might be a good idea to try to get some informational interviews with people working in jobs that you would like or with agencies that you are interested in and try to find out where they went to school. You can probably look up some emails online and just do some cold emailing (you’ll get a lot of non-responses, but if you send out enough, there’ll be a few who provide great responses).

      I went to a large state school in the mid-south, and I don’t think I know anyone who went right to the feds.

    • Explawyer

      I worked in BigLaw for 10 years and am now a government attorney. I liked my job just fine, was lucky to work for two firms that really cared about training their associates, and had the opportunity to work on a variety of different litigation matters, including handling hearings and examining witnesses at trial. However, I worked 14 hour days for years, and at least one weekend day per week, which was comparable to what my peers worked and I never worked in NY (worked in Boston and DC)

      I would expect that the hours associates work now are actually quite manageable as it looks like most associates at Above the Law are reporting billing 2000 hrs a year or so. However, in good times, billing expectations will go up dramatically, and most “good” attorneys I worked with before the bust were billing hundreds of hours more than that. In other words, what you are experiencing now is still slow times.

      Further, with the downturn, a lot of litigation work formerly handled by firms is now being outsourced to India, or performed in house. That provides less need for associates, and less opportunity to teach associates how to run a case soup to nuts. I think a lot of people are getting disenchanted with big law because there is a lot less substantive work to go around.

      Of course, except for a very small minority that are willing to take on the rigors of Big Law partnership, most people, even if they like the job, move on.

  26. Anon

    I daily solve concrete problems for people and companies for whom it matters. I have made friends of many of my clients, who are good people trying to navigate hard decisions. I get to think about interesting questions, and at the end of the day, I get a definitive answer to them (even if I don’t always like it!). I have a balance between difficult intellectual challenges, communication, organization, management, and client relations — all of which I enjoy, but none of which I would want to do all the time. After a few years of dues-paying, I have a lot of autonomy in my work. And I make a lot of money and am treated with respect by my colleagues. That said, I am always expected to be on call, and there is a lot of BS conflict, and a ton of tedious stuff that just has to be done, often at inconvenient times. All in all, though, no job is perfect, and I can deal with all that.

Back to Top

About

Work with Corporette®

Serious Stuff

work fashion blog press mentions