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Updated: Nov 1, 2018 458 Comments · by

Wednesday’s TPS Report: Ruffled Wrap Blazer

The Personal Shopper (TPS)

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Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. SHARAGANO Ruffled Wrap BlazerAlas, I cannot wear coral — but for those of you who can, I love this fun little blazer from Sharagano. I'd keep it neutral and try it with navy — perhaps with a pop of royal blue or white somewhere. It's on sale at Lord & Taylor: was $129, now marked to $104; try code EXTRA to take an extra 20% off. SHARAGANO Ruffled Wrap Blazer Seen a great piece you'd like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com. (L-2)

Sales of note for 9.19.24

  • Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September, and cardmembers earn 3x the points (ends 9/22)
  • Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
  • Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
  • Boden – 15% off new styles
  • Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
  • J.Crew – 50% off select styles — and 9/19 only, 50% off the cashmere wrap
  • J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
  • Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
  • M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
  • Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
  • Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
  • Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
  • Talbots – Anniversary event, 25% off your entire purchase — Free shipping, no minimum, 9/19 only
  • Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
  • Tuckernuck – Friends & Family Sale – get 20%-30% off orders (ends 9/19).
  • White House Black Market – 40% off select styles

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

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About Kat

Kat Griffin is the founder, publisher, and editor-in-chief of Corporette. You can read more about her here.

Comments

  1. Oh.so.tired

    Oooh I love this blazer! Coral is my favorite color this season and I love the ruffles!

    • KC

      Same here! I’m not a huge fan of the latest mint trend (it washes me out), so coral is my color for the spring/summer.

    • KLG

      I absolutely love this blazer, too. So fun, yet still plenty professional for my office.

    • Ellen

      Not me. Unfortunateley, this shows way to much cleaveage for my comfort zone.

      The manageing partner would LOVE for me to buy this, and would probablely approve it for the reimbursment on the SPOT, but I do NOT want him to have an excuse for STAREING at me.

      He is lookeing at me right now, and it is disgussting. FOOEY on him.

      I had to work all weekend, and he did NOT even say thank you. If this keep’s up, I am going to investegate becomeing general council IN-HOUSE! FOOEY!

      • Monday

        Ellen, I don’t think you should be so quick to abandon your interest in a judgeship. Remember what that would mean for your wardrobe. Even if the manageing partner ever appeared before you, there would be nothing for him to stare at.

        • TCFKAG

          Ellen isn’t so much a troll as a fully-formed phenomenon. I mean, there’s an entire blog committed to following her (check out ellenwatch.blogspot.com).

          But in short. yes.

          • Jamie

            I don’t mean this in a bad way, but I imagine Ellen as a character Kristen Wiig would play on”SNL.” I read Ellen’s quote as if Kristen is saying them, and I get the church giggles every time ( as I am at work, and must be professional).

          • eek

            I think of Ellen as being Andy Samberg in drag. And Ellen’s sister is Justin Timberlake, also in drag.

          • January

            Monday, is EllenWatch your blog? You seem to have the strongest interest in deconstructing Ellen. Just curious :)

    • CA Atty

      I love it too! I can only wear a coral if it doesn’t have too much orange in it, but this looks just perfect :-) Maybe it would help me get away from that “suit” look I think people have been complaining about as well…

  2. GRA

    If I wasn’t leaving the “dress professionally 5 days a week” world in a month I would snap this right up. But fortunately, I am!! :)

    • GRA

      PS: I just clicked through to the L&T website and there are a lot of cute jackets on sale! Unfortunately, the 20% discount is basically negated by the $11 shipping cost – I guess I have been too spoiled by Nordstrom and their free shipping on everything!

      • DCJ

        PSA2: Lord & Taylor does offer free shipping on $99+ orders. In my experience, it’s ridiculously fast free shipping (like 1-2 days)!

        • Ellie

          I just tried to buy it, and the free shipping is only if you subscribe to some service which is free for a month but then I assume costs money. No thanks, and they just lost $130 of my business! Back to Nordies I go.

          • DCJ

            (The site has always given me free shipping automatically on a $99 purchase; no code necessary. I think it’s part of the site’s programming — updates automatically. Sounds like maybe you clicked something else?)

          • Ellie

            Everything should work: I see where it says free shipping, and I have $125 in my cart. But it’s still showing up at $13 standard shipping as my cheapest option. And their online chat isn’t helpful.

        • L&T

          I figured it out – the free shipping is only for 2-day shipping, not for standard shipping. So switch to the MORE expensive two-day shipping option, and then it will be free.

    • Sadie

      I love it in theory but whenever I buy anything with ruffles or bows on it, I end up never wearing it. I think it’s because I’m 5’2″. I don’t need anything more making me look like I’m from munchkinland.

      • anon

        Ha! Me too at 5’1″! Particularly where the ruffles are at the chest. I don’t need any more emphasis on my full bust.

        • Sadie

          Oh me too! Busty and short. Ugh, makes it so difficult. I particularly hate tops with bows and ruffles right on the bustline. Yeah, please, let’s put a bow on it. Like my chest doesn’t get enough attention even when safely confined beneath a high neckline. LOL! Plus, bows make me feel 12, which is also probably because I’m shorter than everyone else. thank god for pumps with hidden platforms! LOL

  5. b23

    I love, love, love this. I am actually really proud of myself for sticking to my shopping ban and not buying it.

    Let’s play a game. If you could dress like any character from a television show or movie, who would it be? And since we are playing pretend, it doesn’t matter if the wardrobe matches your actual life.

    I think mine might be Castle’s mom, for those of you who watch that show. I love color and bold jewelry, and she is always an explosion of both.

    • GRA

      This is probably a super-cliched answer, but I always loved Charlotte’s wardrobe in SATC.

    • nona

      Ha – I was thinking how much I like a lot of the pieces that Kate Beckett wears.

      Also – anxiously awaiting Season 5.

      • TCFKAG

        I was gonna say Kate, but only because I watched the season finally and I’m such a Cackett fan (does that even work? I don’t care.)

          • TCFKAG

            But do you really want to call a relationship after the thing you get buried in?? That seems like bad mojo juice.

          • nona

            I dunno – I thought it kind of amusing. He writes murder, and she investigates it. It somehow seemed fitting. And would totally fit Rick Castle’s sense of humor. I wouldn’t be surprised if he suggested it himself, in the show.

          • TCFKAG

            True. But given that next season seems likely to revolve around that assassin dude trying to kill them…might end up being a bit dark. :-P

          • nona

            Silly Helo, doesn’t he know he’s supposed to be a good guy? I bet they also play the “Castle’s dad is a CIA agent” angle too…

    • a passion for fashion

      ooooh. I’d be some combination of Betty Draper and Joan Harris. I’ve been obsessed with that style since i was a little girl and I love that the show has brought it back into fashion so that I can find the style all over the place.

    • JessC

      Joanne Holloway from Mad Men. I love her use of jewel tones and that she does s*xy without showing alot of skin. I don’t go quite as fitted as she does with her clothes, but I do like to channel her sometimes when I’m getting dressed for work. Like today – mauve/dusty rose pencil skirt, bright purple sweater, blank patent peep toe heels, and a long gold cameo necklace.

      • SoHo

        Ditto!! Absolutely love everything Joan wears (though would probably have to go with less fitted as well). My second choice would be the ladies of The Good Wife (Diane Lockhart and Alicia Florrick)!

    • Godzilla

      Sidney Bristow, hands down. She got to wear everything while kicking @$$. And the wigs, to die for.

      • Anonsensical

        Totally agree with you. She looked as good in a black suit as she did in a blue vinyl dress.

          • Anonymous Poser

            LOL

            It’s true–she looked amazing in everything she wore. :-)

            I’ll put my vote in with the Kate Beckett folks, though–I’m so glad there are other fans of her clothing on corporette! (and fans of the show, of course…)

    • TCFKAG

      She’s not imaginary, but its so not reality that it might as well be, so I’ll say Kate Middelton.

      Plus then I could tell everyone to call me the Duchess.

    • KSouth

      Ooh, I like this game. I would dress as both Penelope and Bang Bang from Brothers Bloom. I love how mod, yet timeless, the wardrobe is in that movie.

    • Oh.so.tired

      Blair Waldorf from Gossip Girl- I wish I owned her closet. Some of her outfits, and other outfits on GG generally, can be frumpskanky but most of them are wonderful.

    • SF Bay Associate

      I haven’t had TV reception (cable or local) in over a year, so I’m behind the times. Still, the first character that popped into my head is Lauren, the blond partner/stepmother on Fairly Legal. Gorgeous sheath dresses, great statement jewelry, and amazing shoes. And while I’ve never seen The Good Wife, Christine Baranski has great clothes in the ads.

      Kat, I miss the feature where you review wardrobes of TV characters!

    • Oh.so.tired

      And I’d also like to add Emma Pillsbury on GLEE. I know her wardrobe is supposed to reflect her uptight tendencies but I just love her outfits!

      • DC Anon

        Ooh yes, a mix of her wardrobe and Jess’s from New Girl. Flouncy dresses and headbands are sadly things I can’t wear to work, but they’re so cute!

      • CKB

        Me too. Tailored pieces with a feminine twist, lots of pencil skirts and lots of Kate Spade. I love most of her clothes. I also like lots of what Quinn wears, too.

    • Former MidLevel

      I’m going to totally expose myself as a sci-fi nerd here, but…..Allison Blake from “Eureka,” at least for work clothes. Her suits are always *perfectly* tailored, and she’s rocked some seriously gorgeous, yet work-appropriate, dresses.

      • nona

        You aren’t the only nerd :) I agree – I’ve been catching up on past episodes and had that same thought.

      • TCFKAG

        If you think you’re anywhere close to being the only sci-fi nerd on here, then you haven’t been around for any of the book threads. :-P

    • 30

      Jill Casey on Royal Pains. (This may or may not be influenced by the fact that Mr. 30 looks like a cuter version of Dr. Hank.)

    • jcb

      Annie Walker from Covert Affairs. And Portia de Rossi’s character in Better Off Ted.

        • MissJackson

          +1. I actually went so far as to try to get her haircut/color from that movie once. Sadly, I did not immediately become that awesome.

        • amy

          yes! agree with this. i also remember being somewhat obsessed with gwyneth paltrow’s wardrobe (and apt) in ‘a perfect murder’ …

          oh and on gossip girl, i haven’t watched in a while, but as of a couple of years ago, i would have gone with serena’s outfits over blair’s.

        • SouthernLegal

          +1. I also like Megan’s character on Body of Proof and Keri Washington’s character on Scandal.

      • Merabella

        I love all of Annie’s clothes from Covert Affairs. The dresses are GORGEOUS!

    • Susan

      Annie Walker from “Covert Affairs.” I loved her suits & Louboutins. Also, her workout clothes always looked perfect, like a chic-er version of everything I love in the Athleta catalogue.

      I was always amused to see that her boss always seemed to be wearing a c*cktail dress in a sea of suits.

    • Circe

      Angelina Jolie (Jane Smith) from Mr. and Mrs. Smith. So many great skirt/heels combos.

    • Beach Bar

      JoAnna Garcia’s character (Megan) on Privileged. It was a CW show from 2 or 3 years ago (not sure how many people watched it since it got cancelled).

      I’d also take her tall, dark, and handsome arm candy from the show :)

      • big dipper

        I loved her clothes!! And that show.

        I think I’d pick Jeannie (Kristen Bell) on House of Lies. Although her body type is the opposite of mine so they’d look terrible on me.

    • lucy stone

      Lemon from Hart of Dixie. My inner self is apparently an over the top southern Belle.

      • TCFKAG

        If we could erase the formal shorts (and I could lose about 50 pounds) I would steal Dr. Hart’s outfits. :-)

      • Nonny

        I’m so with you, lucy! Only for myself, I think it would have to be some sort of combination of Blair Waldorf and Lemon. That would be perfect.

    • lp

      Love the clothes on GCB! Probably would go with Amanda if I had to pick since the others are (of course!) so over-the-top! :)

    • K in... Transition

      I’m a fan of Kate Reed’s wardrobe on “Fairly Legal” but could likely never rock the items… professional without being uptight, flattering to her figure, basic colors/styles.

      That or anyone from college kids tv shows since they’re always rocking super flattering sweats/pj’s hehe

    • Monday

      Fun “game,” b23! I’ve noticed that on any shows or movies that are about college students, I always look closely at what any female professors are wearing! So funny. I’m not thinking of any single character, but it’s more like an inner mental collage I have going. In the wacky movie about my students’ lives, I’m the (hopefully sympathetic) young female professor character, so I try to dress for my “role”!

    • Sweet as Soda Pop

      Emma Pillsbury from glee. I love her ladylike, Anthro-inspired wardrobe. It’s far too “cute” for my real life though.

    • cbackson

      Post-Avengers, I have returned to my obsession with the fashion stylings of Pepper Potts. I have been desperately trying to figure out who made the dress that she’s wearing in the airplane scene in the latest movie…

    • Mountain Girl

      I’m loving the current retro look so I’ll say Ingrid Bergman in Casablanca.

    • Kady

      Mary from Downton Abbey.

      Ha! J/K

      The lead character in Scandal (Olivia something) has a pretty slamming wardrobe.

    • Jamie

      Megan Draper (Don’s wife) on ” Mad Men; Peggy is a close second.

      I love the colors – the 60’s was a fun time in fashion.

    • zora

      I’m gonna out-sci-fi-nerd all y’all, and say Adele from Dollhouse. She did the high-waisted, below-knee pencil skirt thing, and she had a whole closet full of the most UhMayZing colored and patterned flowy blouses. Ack, i want to steal her clothes so bad.

      Also, Faith from Buffy/Angel, cause honestly, if I could rock all-black and leather like that, I totally would.

  6. Blonde Lawyer

    Looking for some anecdotal medical suggestions for my dad. He is 75 but until 2 weeks ago was generally pretty fit. He has COPD from years working as a chemist (before we knew certain chemicals were unhealthy). Despite that condition – he has always looked and acted at least 10 years younger than he is.

    In the last ten days he has developed extremely painful swollen joints all over his body. He has been to his doctor twice. They did a preliminary lyme test and said it was negative and tested for RA which he also does not have. They are saying it is just old age, text book arthritis, and to take Alleve.

    I’m super frustrated because if you remember from our irish-catholic family thread, my family is one to always say everything is fine, even when my dad’s COPD is bad. So for him to say this is bad and he is worried and in pain means it is really bad. I’ve suggested he tell his doc about my crohns in case he has an auto-immune joint condition. I’ve also suggested he see a lyme literate doctor since we live in prime lyme country and my mom, her dog, and my dog have all had it.

    So my question is, have you ever seen someone go from no or little joint problems to totally debilitated with arthritis overnight? Anyone know of any other odd ball conditions I should be researching and asking his docs to test for? I’m pushing him to advocate for himself more and if they really think it is arthritis to push for better treatment than just alleve. Any suggestions are welcome.

    • Sadie

      I really think he should seek a second opinion from someone with experience with autoimmune disorders.

      I don’t think it’s likely that he would go from no arthritis, to nearly debilitating arthritis, in ALL his joints, overnight. I’ve really never heard of such a thing.

      • Anonymous

        I think the sudden onset and involvement of many joints without any prior history sounds rather unusual, but its definiteky not unheard of. If you’re not satisfied with the treatment he needs a second opinion. I guess inflammatory markers will be done, and they should point you somewhere if it’s up that street.
        Apart from Lyme which sounds highly possible, any other fevers / bugs going round?

    • LR

      A coworker had similar symptoms in his 30s. He felt a little sick (common cold type illness) and woke up one day shortly thereafter with severe arthritis symptoms. The doctors tested him for Lyme (negative) and then put him on steroids, which I understand meant that any further Lyme tests would come back negative, perhaps falsely. He was out of work for almost two months before the symptoms started clearing on their own. The doctors finally determined that he had viral arthritis caused by one of those viruses that commonly affects children but not adults – he has young children at home. I can’t remember which one for sure, but it might have been an echovirus or parvo.

      That may not be what your dad has, but yes, I’ve seen someone go from fine to debilitating arthritis practically overnight. If he’s only been to his primary doctor so far, I think a rheumatologist would be helpful.

      • ashley

        I would hazard a guess that the virus to which you are referring is parvo, aka parvovirus b19 and fifth disease. I had it as a young adult (caught from a friend’s young child) and everyone was amazed that I had the classic childhood rash presentation and not the typical adult joint pain/swelling.

    • TCFKAG

      His doctor doesn’t know you have crohns? Because my mom was diagnosed in her sixties and I was diagnosed at 13. She jokes it was the first ever case of reverse genetic inheritance. :-P

      But seriously, if he hasn’t told his doc about the family history of autoimmune disorders he really needs to, painful joints are a symptom of oh, about, all of them. And they can do serious damage (much worse than “regular” arthritis) if left untreated.

      • Blonde Lawyer

        Seriously. I want to whack him upside the head sometimes. He has had gut trouble his whole life and even had an obstruction surgically removed at one point but still no Crohns diagnosis. That was before I was diagnosed. He saw the same doc that misdiagnosed me too. Now, I think his new GI (for GERD and Barretts) knows about my Crohns but I don’t think his primary does. I have told him over and over and over again how important it is for his docs to know that.

        Last night I sent him a link from the CCFA about the 3 types of Crohns arthritis and told him to give it to his doc when discussing my crohns. He is going back in ten more days but promised he would go back sooner if it continued to get worse. I also might go with him too just so I can ask the 80 million questions I had to ask to get my conditions treated properly.

        • Hel-lo

          Why don’t you send a letter to his doctor, telling the doc about your Crohns?

      • goirishkj

        Just another Crohn’s comment–my paternal grandmother went undiagnosed for years, despite arthritis, fistulas, malnutrition, abdominal pain, etc. When my dad was diagnosed (grandma was in her 60s by then) a lightbulb went off for her doctors too. Grandma had other health issues so Crohn’s was never confirmed (by that time her possible Crohn’s symptoms weren’t acting up) but the suspicion is that she had undiagnosed Crohn’s.

        Anyhoo, yes, he needs to tell his doctor about Crohn’s. I’ve posted about my family history, but I think it was the only thing that got me diagnosed so “quickly” since it only took a year and a half, and then only because I went to my family doctor. Student health kept telling me I wasn’t sick enough to have Crohn’s/UC.

        I just hope he gets some relief. You said they tested him for RA–does that involve an ANA test? I ask because my mom has some kind of autoimmune disorder (positive ANA and she’s been diagnosed with lupus and scleroderma at various points, can’t remember what her current diagnosis is) and she always talks about the joint pain she experiences. Good luck dealing with your dad. My dad was the same way and I know I have that same tendency to want to bury my head in the sand about medical stuff sometimes because I don’t want to be seen as a whiner.

    • EC MD

      He needs to be seen by a rheumatologist, who specializes in arthritis and arthropathies. It make require a trip to a big city (don’t know where you are). Rheumatology tends to be a very poorly reimbursed speciality, so they can be few and far between and it may be a wait to get it.

      I told my husband the story (we’re sitting at breakfast, and he does a lot of primary care) and he said “steroids would probably help the lung disease and the joints. Sounds like he needs a new primary care.”

      • Blonde Lawyer

        Thanks. He has done rounds of prednizone for the COPD as needed but hasn’t been on it in awhile. They are in Southeastern Mass (sees docs in New Bedford and Fall River) so they have access to the Boston and Providence specialists if needed. Lahey Clinic would only be 40 minutes or so for him. I’ll have to look into his Medicare too and see what he needs to do to get a new doc or specialist covered.

        I appreciate the feedback and I love that I can tell him other smart women agree with me! :)

    • S in Chicago

      Gout maybe? My dad had horrific pain that he attributed to arthritis and it ended up being gout. Maybe modify diet slightly while you’re looking for other answers and see if that helps??

      • Bonnie

        I thought of gout too. It is common in older men, is painful and can flare up quickly.

    • PollyD

      Did they test for leukemia/lymphoma? I think that can manifest as joint pain, but not usually so fast. Usually there’s weight loss and night sweats, too.

      I think seeing someone who specializes in autoimmune conditions is a good idea.

    • michelle

      my daughter had a similar symptom with the same differential diagnoses (RA, Lyme) and it turned out to be rheumatic fever, which several killer antibiotics cured

    • lp

      I have read a lot about the paleo diet, and there seem to be a lot of success stories with people alleviating arthritis and other joint pain. I am not trying to discount medical advice – it just may be worth a shot to see if certain foods exacerbate his condition.

    • Anon..

      Not a doc at all, but agreed on autoimmune – this was basically what happened to me right before my lupus diagnosis. We caught it quickly and all is controlled with minimal meds, but it was a huge change – I went from running 5-7 miles (at least) several times a week to being barely able to walk/ carry books and bags/ wear my rings…push for tests!

    • SoCalAtty

      It sounds viral to me. My horse trainer had something very similar happen and he is really healthy. He went to see a few docs and it finally went away on its own after a few months. Maybe an infectious diseases specialist or an ortho?

    • SouthernLegal

      I have a family member who experienced similar problems, and like your dad, happened pretty much overnight. Turns out the cholestrol medicine she was on was known to attack joints/muscles. Change the meds = no more pain. If your dad is taking any prescription meds, I would ask about some of the lesser known side effects of those drugs to rule out any complications.

      I also second the posts about seeking additional tests and opinions concerning a potential autoimmune disorder.

    • girl in the stix

      Have you asked him about possible external factors? Has he consumed something unusual or from an unusual/unfamiliar source? Been in any strange environments? My first thought (being a CSI/true crime fan) was heavy metal poisoning (not intentional, environmental). That can cause a sudden onset of strange symptoms and doctors don’t regularly test for them.

  7. Oh.so.tired

    Early TJ:

    On the suggestion of some the ladies here, I decided to start Couch to 5k. I love the program! I’m currently on Week 3. I run on the treadmill usually with 5.0 mph run during the running portions and 3.6mph during the walking. I know this is probably really slow for most but it leaves me breathless!

    Also, I’m trying to lose 5-10 lbs. In the past, I’ve always dropped the weight by doing cardio 5x a week (usually eliptical or biking) but the C25K program calls for a resting day between each run. So, I guess I’m looking for a 6-day gym routine for the week that’ll cut the fat. I just finished my last exam in lawschool EVER (yay!) so I have a lot of time to devote to working out. My current schedule is: M/W/F do C25K and T/Th Bikram Yoga. What can I do in addition to this? Strength training? I’ve never done it before and don’t know what areas to target and in what sequence. Would appreciate GREATLY your gym routines for weightloss while maintaining C25K without running burn-out… or any suggested routines. Wish I could afford a personal trainer but alas…

    • GRA

      If you’ve never done strength training before, I would suggested meeting with a personal trainer at your gym. They can show you how to safely use the machines and free weights and design a program that works for you. I finally took that step and it was definitely worth the extra cost!!

      • Godzilla

        STRENGTH TRAINING, YES. It’s so satisfying, especially when you see yourself lifting/pushing more weights. Definitely ask someone to help you with this – form is more important than weight.

        • Ellie

          Agree! I love strength training. When I find the time to do it 2-3 days a week for a few weeks in a row, I just feel so much more wonderful. Stronger, confident, I stand up straighter… I really can tell the difference.

          • viclawstudent

            Wholeheartedly endorse the “get a personal trainer” recommendation. It totally changed my gym-going, for the better, and I’ve seen good results very quickly – much faster than I ever did doing long stints of cardio. I was a mediocre runner at best before I started lifting, and that, too, has seen quite a bit of quick improvement – even though I’m mostly doing resistance/strength training and only running 1-2 times a week, my times are dropping rapidly.

        • NOLA

          I wholeheartedly endorse strength training for all of the reasons above and more. If you push yourself to move more quickly from machine to machine, you’ll keep your heart rate up and burn more calories.

    • JessC

      I’m doing Couch 2 5K also and am definitely going slower than you (walking at 3.0 mph and running 4.5 mph), so don’t be embarassed! Have you tried running outdoors yet? It’s definitely harder than running indoors. My goal is to actually run a 5K by the end of the year, so if you have a similar goal you may want to mix that in. And personally I just find it to be more enjoyable to be outdoors
      Agree with GRA’s recommendation to get with a personal trainer at your gym. Even if you only purchase a handful of sessions, they should be able to assist you with coming up with different exercise to target the parts of your body that need attention. I had a trainer for a little while when I was in law school and, eventhough I don’t see him anymore, I still keep some of the stuff he taught me in mind.

    • phillygirlruns

      congrats on finishing up law school! and YES on strength training. check out stumptuous dot com for great basics and a couple of good training plans.

    • Backgrounder

      You’re not slow…I’m on week 5 of Couch to 5K – walking at 3.5 running at 4.3-4.5. Also interested in suggestions for in between workouts. I have been doing tennis and zumba but need to incorporate strength at some point.

      Anyone have good results/feedback on kettle bell classes?

      • Sutemi

        I love working out with kettlebells. Make sure your instructor emphasizes good form and lift heavy!

    • Latina

      I suggest a trainer as well. If you can afford it maybe go once or twice a week for a month w/ them. You can ask around the gym (receptionist maybe?) and see if you can find someone who wants to split a few PT sessions with you. This way you can get comfortable with the weights and learn the correct way to do everything.

      I like doing the classes that focus on strength training at my gym. They are usually about 75-90 minutes and hit all target areas within each class. I find that I have better results when I include strength training in my workouts. My trainer always says to warmup and stretch before strength training and always end with cardio (at least 10 minutes). I also like doing cardio to loosen up sore muscles. I do cardio (jump rope, skaters, burpies, etc) within my strength training routine to keep my heart rate up. Always remember to stretch before and after your workout. I like to stretch while watching TV before bed also.

      • Godzilla

        Concur. The tip last week about slowly running to push out the lactic acid really helped me – did not get DOMS. I felt like a moron slowly running on the elliptical but it was a great way to wind down at the end of the workout.

    • Supra

      I say this all the time, and I don’t really know how it helps you, but I didn’t actually drop weight from running until I started running fast (tempos, race pace and speed work). I spent years and years plodding along at the same pace, which was the same I pace I ran every race at every distance. I maintained a healthy weight, but I never lost anything. Once I learned to actually train and run and learned that a 5K is run at a totally different pace than a half-marathon, I dropped about 10 lbs quick.

      Since you are a beginner, what you are doing is perfect — learn to run and building endurance. There was a thread on here last week where someone suggested doing 200 meter sprints to learn to run and almost everyone disagreed (for fear of injury), but perhaps alternating between Couch to 5K days and interval training (maybe on an elliptal or bike) where you do 1-2 minute intervals of high intensity aerobic activity and then 1-2 minutes of lower intensity intervals would help you lose weight (and gain fitness).

      I just don’t want you to get frustrated when running all those miles doesn’t affect your weight too much. I love running and I want everyone to love it, but steady state runs don’t do a whole lot for weight loss.

      • Lola

        Can I ask how you sped up? I run a lot, and its also the same pace, no matter the distance, and I mostly maintain my weight (or add if anything, eek) – I would love to lose some.

        • Supra

          Track workouts! The bread and butter are 8 (or 12) x 400 and mile repeats – for the track, 4 times around is a mile. A 400 is one time around. 2:00 around is 8:00 per mile pace — I work off that. The shorter distance, the faster the pace. Push the pace, but know that you have to do 8, or 12, so hold back a little on the first few. Take 2-3 minutes of rest in between each interval. Warm-up for two miles/20 minutes and cool down for two miles/20 minutes.

          Tempo runs, too, which means medium to hard pace for a period of time. Ideally, you go as hard as you can for the prescribed time or distance — it helps to have a faster running partner. Let them set the pace and just try to hang on for 20 minutes or 30 minutes. Tempo pace is not all out pace, but its all out pace based on how long you have to go. Again, warm-up for two miles, then try to go faster for a period of time, then cool down.

          I like to do a one track workout and one tempo run a week. I do one or two easy or recovery runs, one or two rest days, and then either a race or a long run.

          I promise you, though — if you add track workouts, you will not only get faster, you will start torching calories.

    • Bonnie

      If you want to do some strength training without going to the gym, check out the one hundred pushups plan. They also have similar plans for situps, squats and other exercises.

    • January

      The trainer for my running group suggests elliptical or spin classes for cross-training. I think strength training is a good suggestion, too.

    • Anon

      Womens’ Health Magazine has good workout for 15 minute strength training. I rip mine out and take it with me to the gym. But, most of them do not require a ton of equipment and you could totally do them at home if you have arm weights.

    • CA Atty

      Even just going to one or two sessions with a personal trainer can be wonderful if you can’t afford one “full time” (I certainly can’t!) and with a lot of gyms when you join you get 1-4 training sessions. I would be leery of just 1 training session, in my experience it’s a lot of “let’s walk around and look at the machines while I tell you what they do and never ever demonstrate or let you get on it.” But if it’s more than 1 then their goal is to get you on a plan that you can continue yourself.

      Oh, and yeah, definitely strength training. You can also find a lot of videos online (look at sparkpeople dot com, or even youtube if you’re more familiar with them than I am) and sometimes on your tv ondemand if you have that service, which do body weight exercises which is a good place to start.

    • Colleen

      I’ll take the contrary position: rest when the program says to rest. Overworking your body, especially when you’re not necessarily accustomed to regular exercise (or when you change your program), is a surefire way to burn out. Recovery time is just as important as time in the gym. And on a related note, make sure you’re getting enough sleep!

      NUTRITION is the key to cutting fat. As some of the prior posters have said, running won’t necessarily lead to much weight loss if you’re not watching your calories. It’s depressing, but one big meal can undo all of the calories you burn from a week of running. I recommend fitclick dot com, but I think a lot of posters have been using sparkpeople or myfitnesspal. With respect to exercise, more work isn’t always better, and it’s much more efficient — though admittedly less fun — to focus on nutrition if weight loss is a major goal.

    • Lobbyist

      The New Rules of Lifting For Women. Ignore the anti cardio bias and do their weight program 2 or 3 times a week.

  8. Coalea

    Apologies for the early TJ, but I’m dying and need help!

    What suggestions do you ladies have for keeping cool in an office environment that is hot and muggy? This is the 2nd day in a row that it feels like a tropical rainforest in my office and I am miserable – sweaty and cranky and fighting off heat-induced migraines :-(

    I’m in one of approximately 8 million cubicles on my floor with no access to a thermostat (and no guarantee that a change to the thermostat would even affect me…). There is an ice machine on the floor, although it’s a bit of a hike. There is no water cooler.

    Any ideas would be much appreciated!!!

    • onna

      Can you rig a scarf with a pocket in the middle that fits one of those frozen packs you stick in a lunch box? And then arrange the scarf so the frozen pack sits on the back of your neck?

      • Sadie

        This is a great idea! Could you keep one of those mini-cooling fans in your cubicle, too?

      • If I were at the beach with a cold drink, this would be ok

        Seconded. And if you can take off your shoes, either because no one will notice or it just doesn’t matter, that will help too. And if you have hair that hits your neck, it will help to put it up. I often sit around my office in front of a large fan, with my shoes off, jacket off, pants rolled to the knees and hair pulled up anyhow. I don’t often have client contact, thank goodness. I feel your misery and am sorry you’re suffering, OP. The thermostat in our office has been commandeered by an anemic lizard who needs an 80 degree office. It is made tolerable only by the fact that the anemic lizard is disguised as a cute, perky, positive and extremely capable admin assistant for whom no job is too large or too small.

    • Seattleite

      Cool Downz from Am@zon. I don’t have the scarf version, but I do have the hat and can attest that it works very well.

    • SunnyD

      Put a bowl of ice in front of your fan–the ice will cool the air that’s blowing on you. Replace ice as needed.

      I also find having the fan blow at my lower legs and feet cools me down faster than having the fan blow on my upper body. My feet seem to be my body’s thermostat: if my feet are cool, my body is cool.

    • DC Jenny

      If you can get away with it, take off your shoes at your desk. I find that this really helps me cool down faster.

    • Fan

      My secretary has a little fan that plugs into the USB port on her computer and that she can point right at herself. It is surprisingly powerful, quiet and inobtrusive.

  9. AN

    I love this blazer though I can’t wear coral. But my experience with similar blouses is that they ride up where the tie is, on those of us who are more voluptuous on top.

  10. KC

    I’m normally the definition of a makeup minimalist. At dinner last night, my girlfriends all seemed to be of the consensus that lipstick was a necessity for looking pulled together. I decided to try out their advice this morning with a coral pink sample I had from one of those Lancome gifts with purchase. It’s likely because I’m not used to seeing myself made up, but it seemed really extreme.

    Any suggestions for easing into lipstick wearing territory? Should I start with a heavily tinted gloss? Pick a sheer color and build it up gradually? Find the right nude lipstick? Thanks :)

    • Godzilla

      Visit the el cheapo makeup display at your local CVS/Walgreens/RiteAid/Duane Reade and buy lip liners in likely colors. Color your lips in and see how you like the color and use that as a jumping stone before you start buying lipstick (even at drugstore prices, it can become an expen$ive quest to find THE color). Slap your favorite gloss on top and call it a day. Lipstains are really good, too (they look like sharpies, in the makeup aisle).

    • b23

      I agree that lipstick is so important to looking put together. If I were you, I would start with Black Honey from Clinique. That stuff is awesome and really easy to build more color gradually. It’s flattering to every color.

      I wear coral/pink all the time, but I can see how that would look rather drastic if you’re not used to wearing lipstick.

      • Former MidLevel

        Second Black Honey. It’s easy and beautiful on pretty much everyone. Clinique also recently launched a whole new line of similarly-sheer colors. I’d go to Sephora and try some on.

      • KS

        Third Black Honey! Don’t be put off by how dark it looks in the tube. It’s actually an awesome bit of sheer color, that looks different — and great — on everyone, whatever your skin tone. (I learned about it here first!)

      • Anonymous

        Tritto on the Black Honey, its a great gateway drug.

        I think lip color — color and style — really depends on the person, skin tone, and their personal style. For me (very tall, dark brown hair, fair skin, green eyes), its a bold lip or nothing. All that neutral and gloss stuff just looks MEH on me. Shimmery baby pink or taupe? Ugh, I look dead.

      • Anonymous NYer

        LOVE black honey. Also try a clinique chubby stick. I prefer the strawberry something color. It’s basically like what my natural lip color would be, but amplified. Obv depends on skin tone, but it’s very basic.

    • JessC

      Try look for something that has “sheer” in the name – this way it’s just a touch of color as opposed to COLOR.
      What’s your coloring? Maybe coral just isn’t a good color for you (see Kat’s comment about about how she can’t wear coral).
      If you want a recommendation, one of my favorite drugstore purchases is CoverGirl LipSlicks in Dare. The color of the tube/product looks alot more intimidating than it actually is. For me, it looks like my natural color just a little darker.

      • Sadie

        Try one of the new lip butters, revlon and l’oreal have them. More color than gloss and not, well, glossy…so you don’t look too much like a 14 year old, but you can get the color sheer or build it more. just start with something similar to your lip color!
        Clinique black honey is also a good one, for sure!

        • Niktaw

          Disagree on the Revlon lip butter. It looked neither sheer nor natural on me. I really wanted to like it and tried 2 colors but ended up returning both.
          Yes, you can return cosmetics to the pharmacy (CVS for sure) with a receipt within… 7 days? 2 weeks? can’t remember.

          I swear by Clinique Chubby Stick though.

          • Sadie

            If you apply it with a finger instead of straight out of the tube, it goes on really nicely. Out of the tube, it goes on like lipstick. :)

    • Lyssa

      I would start with something that very closely matches your natural lip color (a makeup counter person should be able to help). For me, though I don’t wear lipstick very often, Clinique’s Rose Aglow is my professional go-to, because it is very close to my natural color, but still looks a lot more polished and just finished if I’m really going all out (court, interviews, important meetings).

    • BigLaw Optimist

      Is coral your color? It may seem extreme because it was a sample and wasn’t picked for your skin tone. I am not a fan of gloss because it’s sticky and always ends up getting in my hair on my walk to work (long layers + wind = gloss-sticky hair), but either way I’d suggest going to a makeup counter and telling them what you told us (i.e. – I want to ease into lipstick, find a color that works for me that isn’t too extreme). They should be able to help!

    • S

      I think rose looks good on all skin tones, except perhaps for the very dark-skinned. Visit a few make-up counters at Nordstrom and ask the MA to match you with some rose lip products in varying levels of opacity. Then you’ll have a sense of the type of texture and coverage you like, as well as the right shade. If you do happen to be deep-complected, go with brights. Fuschia, purple, orange and red look amazing against skin.

    • NOLA

      It may just be the color. Go for something a little more neutral and make sure it goes with your skin tone. I feel like I look ridiculous in pink. I wear what’s called a rosy beige from MAC (spirit) and it looks reddish on me, but not too extreme.

    • KC

      Thanks everyone! For those who asked, my coloring is very fair (pale skin, blue eyes, blonde hair). I think the combination of light features and not being used to color on my face is probably what made me hesitate. I appreciate all the suggestions and will start taking baby steps!

      • AIMS

        I rarely wear lipstick because I also don’t usually like the look on me and find it similarly dramatic, but I love, LOVE, love Smashbox OGloss. It’s like fancy mood lipstick. You dap it on with your finger and it just makes your lips a nice flattering color. Like perfect shade for you. And it looks very natural, isn’t sticky, has decent staying power, doesn’t come off in a crustry way, you can put it on sans mirror, it’s just awesome. They sell them at Sephora. I could not recommend more highly.

      • Sadie

        This is exactly my coloring, and I find a muted dusty rose type color, which is similar to my lip color only a bit “more”, works really well.

      • Tuesday

        I have similar coloring, and like the Fresh Sugar line for a touch of color — this might be a good “starter” color line for you. http://www.fresh.com/makeup/lip-care

        If there’s no Fresh store near you, check at Sephora. You’ll want to try them on. For me, the rose is a little bright, but the honey is almost the same color as my lips.

        • anon

          Second this. I have honey for days I want a touch of something extra and plum for days when I want a bit more color. Again, don’t be put off by the very dark color of the stick. Try it on and see what you think. My best lipstick buying tip is to try something you like at Sephora or Nordstrom and wear it around for an hour or two. Do you like the look in the store and in natural light? Does it wear well? Is it too glossy or not enough? How does it feel on your lips? And do you like (or at least can live with) the taste?

    • S in Chicago

      I’d suggest a visit to the Bobbi Brown counter. They’re great with really natural make up, and one tube of the right color is better than a dozen drugstore brands that don’t quite work. (I say sadly from experience….)

    • Margaret

      I’ve posted this before, but I think it’s great advice, so I’ll post again. I personally think you should stock up on one nude-ish gloss for everyday, easy-to-reapply-at-your-desk wear (I like the MAC Viva-glam glosses for this) and one brighter lipstick with matching lip liner (for me, it’s coral-red) for “special days” when you really want to look great. It’s this second color that will be hard to stomach for a make-up minimalist. So here’s the tip:

      Go to your local department store and choose a make-up counter with a well-made-up saleswoman (I like Lancome personally). Tell her you want to try out a new lipstick and that you’ll be scared and need help recognizing what looks good. Let her pick out a few things, try them out on you, and recommend something (that probably makes you uncomfortable). Make sure she does your cheek blush as well, because you need blush with a bright lipstick. **Don’t decide if you like it right away, because you probably won’t.** Wear the lipstick around the store/mall while browsing for at least half an hour and check yourself out in the mirror constantly. See if you like it after you get used it — I usually do, even if I totally was overwhelmed at first. If so, buy it. If not, try again.

    • Anon

      I’d recommend Chantecaille Lip Chics or Dior Addict Lipstick if you’re trying to ease into lipstick wearing – both are really comfortable to wear (and I usually hate lipstick). They’re pricey but IMO worth it for an everyday lipstick. With your coloring, I’d try Camellia Lip Chic or try on some of the pinks in the Dior line at Sephora. I have Rose Deshabille and it’s just a bit darker than my lips but give some polish. Basic looks pretty, too.

    • mamabear

      Agree with those who suggest the problem may be the coral color. It’s a very tough color to pull off for most complexions.

      I like lipstick so have no qualms about wearing it, but agree with those who suggest a sheer color.

      here’s a trick. Pull out your bottom lip and look at the color of the skin on your inner lip (the part against your lower teeth, the wet part.) That’s your natural lipstick color. That color will never look unnatural on you.

  11. Godzilla

    Just wanna say that I saw a lady in my building with a citron raincoat and I WANT IT SO BADLY. Citron raincoat lady, you’re my hero.

  12. Lawyer in Theory

    sorry if I am asking people to be redundant. in the scarf thread from yesterday, there was extensive discussion of a magical-sounding skirt. comfortable, professional, secret-sweatpants, etc.

    where is this magical skirt?

    • TCFKAG

      This is why we really need some kind of FAQ section around here. Warning, not everyone loves it, but those of us who do buy several — so you may end up with a collection.

    • Batgirl

      It doesn’t work for all figures–I’m petite with a tiny bit of a belly and it makes me look ridiculous.

    • Flamingo

      For those of you who love the skirt, would you consider it appropriate for a very corporate environment? I’m thinking I should wear it with a Gerry blazer, but after that I’m out ideas.

      • KS

        I’m wearing this today (in a dusty rose color), in a law firm environment, with black stockings, black pumps, white blouse and pearls, and black blazer. I think I look quite appropriate! :-)

    • phillygirlruns

      this post has led to my spontaneous purchase of the skirt in coral (it’s my third, adding to the kelly green and cobalt blue i already own) and sperry topsiders in rose gold, since i have a mental block on ordering only one item. thanks guys.

      • GRA

        Glad I am not the only one who has a mental block when it comes to only ordering one item. My cart seems to lonely when there’s only one purchase …

    • S in Chicago

      I own it in four colors now. But I will give this caveat: I’m 5′ 8″, of average waist, and never need to get things hemmed. But for some reason where it falls on me is pretty low on the knee (and honestly, I usually favor a longer skirt). It went from looking kind of matronly to stunning with just a little shortening. So keep an open mind when you try one on. The fabric is honestly divine. Well worth the hem.

    • Circe

      Anyone own the Blue Spectrum? It looks a little purpley, which would suit me great. I have the last season’s true cobalt color, so I wouldn’t want to duplicate that … any tips?

      • 4L

        I don’t know about last season’s cobalt, but Blue Spectrum is definitely slightly purplish. Not eggplant, not cobalt…somewhere in the middle but still a very saturated color, if that makes sense.

        • Senior Attorney

          I have the Blue Spectrum. It’s a little purply but if you have a cobalt skirt already you might find it too similar. I bought it to fill the “cobalt skirt” hole in my wardrobe and it is doing so very nicely. But with free shipping and returns you have nothing to lose by giving it a try, right?

    • Anon

      Should I really order a whole size down? sorry I know we have talked about this skirt a bazillion times.

          • Senior Attorney

            Agreed. Last season I needed to size down in petite sizes but this season I bought a size down and it was suddenly too small. This seasons 2P’s are exactly the same size as last season’s 0P’s. Go figure.

      • Former MidLevel

        Yes. At least a full size down. E.g., I wear a 4 or a 6 at most stores, and a 2 in The Skirt. Luckily, Nordstrom has free returns and exchanges!

  13. btsbsc

    Ladies, what were your best graduation gifts?
    My husband is graduating from law school this year and friends and family have been asking me what to get him. I’ve said briefcase/laptop bag and diploma framing – any other ideas? Books? Desk accessories for his new office?

    • Anon

      Hee, I am getting my husband an hour of flying lesson. He has been talking about learning to fly for ages.

    • Former MidLevel

      What type of work is he going to to after graduation? If there is any chance at all that he’ll have to travel for work, I’d recommend a checkpoint-friendly laptop bag.

    • TCFKAG

      Been recommended here before, but there are a couple great style and written guides out there (I like Curmudgeon’s Guide to Practicing Law, others like other ones). Manly business card holders, a money clip (if he’d use one), cuff links, a day bag for business trips (if he does that kind of business law where he’ll be traveling), maybe a nice pen, a nice pad folio (if he doesn’t already have one), and maybe a waist holster for his smart phone (again, if he’d wear one.) Oh, and maybe one of those tie clip things, though I’m a bit mystified as to their purpose.

    • Cat

      to be honest, there’s only so many “lawyer tokens” that one person can handle – if he’s going to a firm, most people don’t even display/use those desk sets or clocks or other Things Remembered type accessories (in my experience, anyway…). My exception would be some nice picture frames (either filled with photos or not) to take in.

      If it’s a gift-card friendly crowd, either money to stock the closet (BB or whatever your hubby prefers) or for restaurants (either nice ones, or to chains that would let you “splurge” on carryout while studying for the bar/working) were a hit with me/hubby.

      Other ideas – if he doesn’t have them (as a surprising number of people didn’t, as a result of having only summer internships), a basic trench coat or winter cloth coat and a good quality umbrella.

    • JessC

      I got 2 really awesome law school grad gifts:
      1. Name plate for my desk that was “FirstName LastName, Esq.” Alot of offices will give you a generic one, but this is a nice piece of engraved granite. It’s the kind of thing you can take from office to office.
      2. A crystal gavel from Waterford. It’s currently displayed on the book shelf in my office.

  14. Lydia

    I second this. I never did any strength training until I met with a personal trainer because I just didn’t know where to start. Strength training is also very important if you want to continue running.

  15. LoveCake

    Another career related TJ/Vent:

    I have been blessed in my personal life but my career..not so much. Since most of you seem like you have it under control, hopefully you can share your wisdom with me. I am 6 years out of undergrad in a good, not great, job and have finally paid off my student loans. I am very bored in my career and frustrated with myself that I STILL am not sure what I want to do. I feel like time is running out and the more I invest in my current path the harder it will be to make a change. I love playing with ideas, problem solving, researching, interacting with customers/client, teaching or advising, thinking, coming up with new ideas. My current job allows me to do 1-2 of these things. I also want something that would allow me to earn an advanced degree. I love education and learning and that is something that is really important to me.

    I hate saying this because I know I will be judged but it is important to me to be “esteemed” in some way. I know that sounds bad but that is what drives me. I didn’t come from a family with prestigious careers or degrees so I guess somewhere along the way I decided that I want to be the first in my family to do that.

    I am feeling really frustrated that I can’t find anything that seems like a good fit. I have considered an MBA and JD (of course) but the cost is so high and the job market so uncertain that I am too worried to take the plunge. I have recently considered management consulting but that doesn’t have the “intellectual” piece that I enjoy or the education though the work does seem interesting.

    Has anyone else felt like this and found a satisfying career? Are there other career paths that I should consider that sound like what I am looking for?

    • Godzilla

      I don’t know what your background is in but you sound like the perfect candidate for engineering. If there is a community/public college around you, I’d say go for a degree there. If the thought of that much math and science is a turn-off, look in project management. Has all the hallmarks of “playing with ideas, problem solving, researching, interacting with customers/client, teaching or advising, thinking, coming up with new ideas”. Even without a formal degree, there are lots of seminars, webinars and info sessions available for those looking to jump in. Plus, we need more women in these fields, come join us!

      • Meep

        If you have been blessed in your personal life and have a good job with no student loans 6 years out of undergrad in this economy you’re doing pretty well. It sounds to me like you have the infrastructure to pursue what you really want to do (supportive friends/family and a decent financial situation). My advice is to assess your current skill set and experience and bring them to a growing company in an industry that interests you. You should always be able to learn in a good position — formally or informally — and by contributiong to the growth of a smaller company you may find the ‘esteem’ you are looking for. I’m not 100% sure how you are defining esteemed — a string of letters after your name, someone who is quoted and speaks on panels or both?

        • momentsofabsurdity

          Would absolutely advise working for a smaller company as well. Along with many other things, work at a smaller company or startup is often much less “defined” so the role you craft for yourself can be focused to include a variety of things that you enjoy, not just exactly what it said in the job description when you applied.

        • LoveCake

          Thanks for your response! I would like a few letters after my name but being influential in a field would be important too. I know that comes with time and experience but it is something I am willing to work toward.

    • momentsofabsurdity

      I’m in strategic planning/business development and while I don’t do everything you do, I really enjoy the work which involves advising, determining a longterm strategy and putting it into motion through partnerships and new markets.

      I wouldn’t go for a graduate degree until you decide on an industry or industries that are a fit, just because it is SO expensive.

      I also recommend The Defining Decade, which I just finished last night. It addresses some of the “at sea” issues I think a lot of 20somethings struggle with in their career – at least, I know I do.

    • SunnyD

      Have you considered aptitude testing before you jump into any particular program? I did testing before going to law school and found it tremendously helpful–both helping me weed out careers that I would not have been good at or would not have found satisfying and proposing some good matches. For example: I really wanted to be a high school teacher. At the consultation following my testing, the examiner said to me: “you hate it when your classmates don’t do their reading; how are you going to respond when the 30 kids in your class don’t do their homework?” As I thought about it, I wanted to teach kids like *me*, but I was head nerd in high school and not exactly representative of the student population. I probably would have hated teaching. Similarly, my folks wanted me to be a doctor because I was good at math and science. My aptitude testing, however, showed I don’t see things three dimensionally (so much for my dream of getting a pilot’s license!) and I have very poor dexterity. Would you hire a surgeon would can’t manipulate tools and can’t really tell which plane your body parts are on? Nope.

      I found the money was well spent and I think I was spared a lot of frustration in life and didn’t spend time pursuing a career I probably would not have liked. Instead I’m in law and it’s a very good fit for me.

      This is the service I used in Dallas: http://aimstesting.org/

      • LoveCake

        This sounds perfect for me. I am located in the Midwest though – I will definitely try to see what I can find around here. Are there any organizations that offer this type of testing nationwide?

    • PollyD

      I’m going to throw out hospital or health care administration. I think I saw something recently that this is and will continue to be a growing field. There are definitely problem-solving aspects, and a lot of learning as new treatments and drugs become available, or new kinds of diseases or health issues become more prominent. I think that an MPH can usually get you in the door for these kinds of jobs, and is probably cheaper than an MBA. Johns Hopkins has an 18-month MPH program that is highly respected (at least on the East Coast) and I want to say it’s about or just slightly above $50K for the whole program (+ living expenses). I think this is probably one of the more expensive MPH programs, too.

      I just think that if you like learning and educating, learning about health issues can be fascinating, as can teaching people about them. Most people I meet are very interested in how their bodies work.

    • a.

      The thing that jumped out at me, when I read the list of stuff you liked doing, was educational administration. (Probably just ’cause I work in education, but.) Think principal, assistant principal, stuff like that. This depends some on the school where you work, obviously, and on whether you’re a principal or a lower-level administrator, but you should have an outlet for every single bullet you listed.

      There are a lot of part-time, evening MA programs available, as well as some focused more on career switchers.

    • Totes McGotes

      Remember that prestige, esteem, and satisfaction don’t have to come from your day job – lord knows I have to find a way to embrace that every day. Others have given some great job-related advice, but if you want to feel like a big fish in your pond, go get on some boards or steering committees. Maybe you will have to start with on-the-ground volunteering to work your way up to that level (depending on the organization), but I think you’ll definitely get what you’re looking for as far as esteem and practical knowledge/experience.

      • LoveCake

        Thanks for that insight! I should have mentioned that I am on the board of a large non-profit in the area. While I really enjoy this I wouldn’t want to do something like this for my day-job. It is very rewarding but one of the things I like about my job now (I should have posted this above with my “wish list”) is that it is competitive and male-dominated. I really do enjoy the thrill of the competition and I like exceling in an area where men are usually the leaders. Too bad I don’t particularly enjoy the industry or the lack of prestige. The industry I am in is sometimes described as “touchy-feely” and I really hate that.

        • a.

          A competitive, male-dominated field that could be described as “touchy-feely”? What industry on earth do you work in?

          • momentsofabsurdity

            If I’m reading right, the job role is male dominated (IT? Engineering?) but the industry is touchy-feely (and presumably female dominated?).

        • new york associate

          Now I desperately want to know what job and industry you are in.

  16. Jo March

    Random aside for Canadian readers:

    Smart Set has a great light brown linen suit, jacket/skirt/pants, available right now. Under $150 for all three pieces and it.looks.GREAT.

    This is exciting because they seemed to have given up on proper suiting (e.g., only had short-sleeved blazers, an obvious no-no for court) and it’s one of the only places I can find things small enough to fit me without needing taking in (though, at 5′, I still need to hem the pants). Also, the pants are high-waisted AND wide-leg, which I’d always avoided as being totally unflattering to my short, curvy body. But somehow they look great! ANDAND the skirt has a nice flippy bottom, so I can ride my bike in it and also walk/cross my legs nice and easy.

    YAY!

    • viclawstudent

      Oh, that’s a good deal, and I don’t yet have a brown suit in my rotation, so I’ll have to go and check that out.

    • linnet

      Wow, I’d given up on Smart Set as they seem to have gone very trendy in the last few years. (and mourned their nice wool sweaters I didn’t buy back when they sold nice wool sweaters…) Thanks for the tip, I’ll check it out!

      • Jo March

        Also got two t-shirts that are perfectly appropriate for underneath suiting – 2 for $26! Available in multiple colours (I’ve bought my first coral clothing ever, and it looks awesome with the brown suiting!) and several cuts, all with high enough necklines for court. SUCCESSFUL MALL TRIP WOOOT!

    • Nonny

      Wow, this is interesting as I’d never really thought of Smart Set as a work clothing destination. But it sounds like I need to check it out…Thanks for the tip!

  17. anon

    Political issue ahead – proceed with caution.

    I just checked in with a close gay friend in NC after last night’s vote. He’s at a graduate program and campaigned hard against the gay marriage ban. I felt awful on the phone because he was almost crying. He lived in CA during the Prop 8 vote, and I think he hoped (though didn’t expect) it would be different this time. I don’t know what to say to him besides that (I believe) the rights he’s fighting for will eventually come to pass. I just feel really awful that he is so upset and there is nothing I can do.

    • NOLA

      So sorry for your friend. That’s really sad. We were celebrating with a friend on Sunday – her brother and his now husband (!) just got married in NYC last week after being together for 22 years. She said the minister’s first words were “It’s about time!”

    • cfm

      this doesn’t have to be political. Its a friend experiencing terrible news that he feels powerless to change. I think that just being there, being supportive, telling him your there for him if he wants to vent and that you think change is on the horizon for him is important and helpful.

    • Anony

      Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. used to say something (he got it from a transcendentalist emancipation preacher) — that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. A good friend lived in CA during the Prop 8 vote. He then moved to another anti-marriage state where he married (I don’t use any other word for it) his partner in a moving and beautiful wedding. He now lives in a state that recognizes his marriage.

      I don’t think there’s anything to say or do, other than be there for your friend and listen to his frustration and tell him that no matter what the state says, you believe that his relationships are whole and deserving of every recognition. And if he gets married, treat them that way. Oh…and this week, maybe send your friend an e-mail later this week telling him how much he means to you.

      • Susan

        I love this suggestion, and OP, I think you’re being a good friend in trying to console him.

    • Anne Shirley

      Send flowers? Sometimes it’s just nice to have a visual reminder that people love you and care you’re sad.

    • Blonde Lawyer

      You got a lot of great suggestions and I think it is great you care so much about your friend. I don’t have much to add but your post moved me.

    • PollyD

      It is very disappointing. I like the idea of sending flowers or some other sort of condolence gift (really good chocolate? Cupcakes? Box of steaks?). I hope your friend can keep in mind that polls are showing that more and more Americans are in favor of marriage for everyone. It will happen. We have to keep fighting and it will be tedious and demoralizing, but it will happen.

      Meanwhile, I think I may have to propose the Save-Marriage-From-Serial-Monogamists-Act: How is it okay for Jennifer Lopez to have 4 marriages and move on to number 5, but two guys who have been together for 25+ years getting married is somehow damaging to the institution? I’m pretty hardcore about committments, whether there was a ceremony or not, so this always gets to me.

    • gayanon

      I’ve been in your friend’s shoes, and what would mean the most to me, by far, would be for you to do something related to one of the many gay rights issues that will be on the ballot in November (just off the top of my head, I think Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, and NJ may have something on the ballot). Making a donation or phone banking are the most obvious things to do. I really do appreciate sympathy from my friends, but sometimes I feel pretty lonely in the trenches, and I love hearing when people have done something active to help.

      • anon

        This. And you could also probably send along thoughts/stories on recent victories or ways the movement is digging in its heels for the fight. Maybe an uplifting article by Lambda Legal or the like.

        • anon

          Thanks everyone for your comments. I have expressed my support to him and the idea about donations is a great one. He’s so beaten down right now that I don’t know if he’s hearing me, or anyone, but he admitted the decision wasn’t much of a surprise, the way Prop 8 was to him.

          I’m also going to send him an email with a bunch of quotes from the Walker decision on Prop 8, which we skimmed together over the phone and loved (we’ve been friends since high school and met at a high school government program, so we both really enjoy nerdy things like that) to show him that hope is in the horizon.

          • Walker's Opinion

            I would send him the entire district court opinion. If he hasn’t already read it, it will buoy him. Walker did a very thorough job of listing every single reason anti-gay-marriage advocates give (and gave in that case) and then listing all the evidence that supports each one (none, even though the anti-gay-marriage litigants had all the resources in the world at their disposal in that case) and all the evidence that negates each one (plentiful). Reading it will remind your friend that he is not insane and he is not alone.

            Last night Piers Morgan had someone on his show talking about Amendment One in NC. In response to every question Piers asked, his guest (whose name I forget, but a white man who opposed gay marriage) issued a platitude. Piers asked for follow-up but never got it. I was screaming at the TV, “that’s because there is no follow-up — it is a deontological point — there is no evidence — read Judge Walker’s opinion!”

          • rosie

            Also, Dan Savage once (maybe last year) responded to a question of “I like gay people, I just don’t think they should be allowed to marry, why does everyone think I’m homophobic?” in a most awesome way. Unfortunately I cannot find it, but perhaps someone knows what I’m talking about and/or has better Google skills than I do.

      • DC anonymous

        Yep, I think all those states have things on the ballot, and Washington State too. I’m sure a donation to one of those campaigns in your friend’s name would be appreciated (and appreciated by the campaign, too, since initiative races are often underfunded!). Or, if it’s feasible for you and you really want to go all out, you could offer to take some time off this October and take a trip with him to go volunteer full-time on one of those campaigns during the last few weeks. I think there is a good chance that Washington state and/or Maryland will be the first state(s) to uphold marriage equality by popular vote, so it could be really special to be a part of that, but of course it would be another big let down if you guys fly out there and then lose.

        Mostly, though, if I were in your friend’s shoes, I would want someone to be angry along with me. That’s not to say don’t be positive at all, but something more along the lines of “Yeah, I hope and think this will change soon, but right now it really really sucks and I’m so angry that people are still thinking like this in this day and age,” rather than a totally optimistic statement. I bet you’re already doing fine, though — it sounds like you are a great, really caring friend and that means you are probably attuned to what your friend needs, even if it doesn’t feel like it because it’s just a tough situation all around.

    • AIMS

      It’s terrible. But it’s important to recognize how far people have come on the issue. Yes, there is a long way to go, but I think its helpful to remember that one of the reasons that NC even had that ridiculous vote (it was already against the law in that state!) and why so many states are digging in like this is because they are seeing the inevitable. Maybe it’s naive, but I really believe this will be shortlived.

      • NoVAAtty

        I felt horrible for those in NC too who are impacted by this tragic decision. The NPR coverage had the “defense of marriage” PAC celebrating by cutting a wedding cake. I thought that was so cruel, to take something that is about love, and deny it to others because of your religious beliefs, not because that is what represents social justice, and the best interests of the country.

        I have to read more closely but my understanding is that it strips gays & lesbians the ability to enter in to civil unions as well. If this is true, I can’t imagine why NC would want to deny them that small token of equality under the law.

        • Anony

          If you can’t imagine that (about civil unions) — then you haven’t been paying attention to how petty and cruel the ant-gay movement can be. It so insane and I just can’t understand it, but its there. They view it as a gateway step or something to the end of civilization. Ugh.

    • Super Super Super Anon

      I just wonder if a post like this would have gotten as many sympathetic comments had it been about congratulating somebody who had campaigned FOR the amendment. I get that you put the ‘warning’ on this post so that those of us in disagreement could skip, but what bugs me about political discussions here on this blog is the perception I always get (when a topic like this comes up) that ‘other’ side (ie, read the conservative side) posts are far less tolerated. I always get the feeling here that those who think with the ‘other’ side are made to feel inferior- for example, the comment below about the “Save-Marriage-From-Serial-Monogamists-Act” (because yes, obviously I, as somebody who believes only in one-man-one-woman marriage, couldn’t possibly have thought about the issue rationally and clearly must think hypocritically *just* because I believe in one-man-one-woman marriage… yep, not possible that I think multiple divorces are bad too!).

      Love,
      Proudly pro-life, pro-man-woman-marriage, pro-many socially conservative things I’m sure a lot of people would unrespectfully flame me for

      • cfm

        So I’m conservative in a lot of things. (voted for mccain) But I’ve never heard an anti-gay marriage argument that makes any sense to me. I am not flaming at all, but I would love to hear why you think marriage is one man one woman. (religion?)

        And I agree that this blog tends to be very anti conservatives. But I am for gay marriage and would truly love to hear why you think it is supposed to be one man one woman.

        • Anon

          just to add 2 cents to the argument. and this is my husband’s position. he’s a libertarian and is fundamentally against marriage being controlled in any way shape or form by government. he believes that marriage should be strictly a social bond, governed then by whatever religion or other social construct you and your spouse choose to participate in. so he does not support gay marriage because it is an expansion of a power he fundamentally does not believe the states have. he’s also supported the (few) organizations who work to take all marriage out of the state altogether. mind you, this would mean no more laws of any kind that would benefit married couples over unmarried couples (e.g., no rules governing inheritance, etc… between married couples, no tax benefits, no differential recognition at the state/federal level).

      • also anon

        I think you’re right that this board trends liberal and that conservative viewpoints aren’t embraced (or even listened to) the way liberal viewpoints are.

        But it’s not that I’m inflamed by you. I just don’t understand you, to be perfectly honest.

        I have plenty of friends who are pro life. I absolutely understand their position, even though I don’t agree with it. I see that a rational person could disagree on issues like abortion, taxes, capital punishment, etc. Whether or not I agree with an issue, I always make an effort to see the other side. And often, I see that the other side is rational and logical, even if I don’t personally agree with it. I see how the other person came to that viewpoint.

        I honestly cannot “see” the other side of gay marriage. I have never once even heard a nonreligious argument for gay marriage. If the issue were say – mandating that churches marry gay couples, I could see an argument against it. But (to me, to me, to me!) I cannot see a rational and logical argument against gay marriage. I have no stake in the game beyond gay friends and acquaintances – I’m straight and will likely never confront discrimination based on my sexuality. So I don’t think I’m “seeing red” on the issue and refusing to hear other viewpoints.

        I think at least in terms of gay marriage, anti-gay marriage supporters often don’t get sympathy or support from people like me because I just plain cannot understand what is driving them to their viewpoint.

        • a.

          This, man. Opposition to gay marriage just, straight up, does not compute for me. I’m about as liberal as you can get, but like also anon I can absolutely see how people could rationally disagree on subjects like abortion, taxes, gun control, capital punishment, affirmative action, or whatever–and am happy to listen to (or read) a well-thought-out, reasoned statement of support of Thing I Don’t Agree With Because I Am A Tree-Hugging Bleeding-Heart Liberal.

          But gay marriage (or civil unions or some other legally-recognized partnership)? Nope. Because it has no impact on anyone other than the two people who enter into it. I do not count a Southern Baptist (please note: I was raised Southern Baptist, so I know that of which I speak) preacher pounding his Bible and railing about how God will turn His blessings away from our modern-day Sodom and Gomorrah as an “impact.” So please, enlighten me.

        • Anon

          I am very liberal in most ways- heck almost all, but I still do not understand the push for gay marriage!

          I mean when you consider the institution of marriage, an ancient tradition, steeped in religion in almost all religions except one or two, is the celebration of union of a man and a woman. Period. That is the natural order of things. Now people will jump on this pointing out the gay penguins and other recorded observances of homosexuality in nature. Yes, I agree that such examples exist, but they get so much publicity only because they are rare and outside of natural order of things. Just like human homosexuality is.

          What I do not understand is the push to modify the ancient tradition of a marriage to suit your need. Why not come up with your own tradition?
          As a society, we should have equal legal rights. That is what a civil union is for. Why the need to attack the institution of marriage when you get the same end product with a civil union? You are out of the norm and it is funny that you ( as in general gay population) still need that stamp of the traditional marriage.
          I do not believe that the tradition is trivial enough to be bent to current need of gays to be “married” in a church or temple or what have you.

          • TCFKAG

            Gay people don’t want to make the Catholic Church or the Conservative Jewish temple or Muslim mosques marry them. They don’t necessarily want religious marriage. They want the legal rights and privileges associated with marriage. The problem when you just say “oh just call it a civil union” is that people who aren’t as “open minded and friendly” are going to say that’s lesser and can have lesser rights — they want the same rights.

            Besides, this concept that marriage is some sort of indelible concept that has never changed is ludicrous. People in the bible had more than one wife. Marriage as of less than a hundred years ago was an economic arrangement, not a romantic one. Marriage is a socio-cultural arrangement loaded with many meanings that has evolved. Anyone who says otherwise is closing their eyes to history.

          • Susan

            The ancient tradition of marriage has had many modifications. Do you object to them, too?

            For example:
            It wasn’t so long ago that when a woman married, her husband would have access to whatever she inherited, and he would have full custody of her children.

            If you really want to go ancient, in Ancient Rome, the head of the house (paterfamilias) had the right to sell his wife and children into slavery. Those were parts of his rights as husband and head of the household.

            Also, whose ancient traditions are you drawing on? China, under dynastic rule and until the Communists took over, allowed concubines in a way that looked a lot like polygamy. Wives and heirs and half-heirs had fun conniving against each other and poisoning each other. Want to bring that back?

            If you don’t want to bring these traditions back, then why do you single out gay marriage as problematic?

          • cfm

            You are talking about something completely different. the NC amendment banned civil unions. So gays don’t have the legal rights. People are pushing for equal legal rights. Many states do not allow civil unions between same sex partners.

            I’m all for calling all “marriages” meaning legally married in the eyes of the state and government, civil unions. But when people are talking about marriages they are talking about the legal rights. Gays aren’t pushing for the right to get married in a church they want to be recognized by the government

          • Anonny

            A civil union is only legally equal to marriage at the state level and not the federal level. Also, not all states recognize civil unions. There are some federal benefits that those in a civil union do not receive that those in a marriage do.

          • goirishkj

            At common law a wife had no separate legal existence as marriage merged the husband
            and wife. Of course, hubby got to keep HIS legal existence.

            Want to go back there? It is “traditional.”

            You can take my degrees and my vote from my cold, dead hands. Tradition fails as an argument.

          • Anon

            I have no argument that the nature of the recognized levels of marriage has changed. However at the heart of the institution is the bond between a man and a wife!

            That is fundamental. What you are trying to do here is change the fundamentals of the institution. For many of us, it is not merely a contract, but has much deeper implications.

            Having said that, I am completely for equal rights for a gay couples. I want civil unions, and most of the rights a marriage entails. Also, I am all for right to pass on self earned property but against the right to inherit because that non self-earned property for reasons that will take up too much space here.

          • Anony

            You can’t say “the institution of marriage, an ancient tradition, steeped in religion in almost all religions except one or two, is the celebration of union of a man and a woman. Period.” And then ignore the fact that until relatively recently, lots of religions recognized polygamous marriage. And still others turned a blind eye to marriage with established concubinage arrangements. And most recognized marriages that were forced, or between adult men and minor girls. Your Period contains a lot of Buts.

          • momentsofabsurdity

            For a long time in history, at least American history, the “tradition” of marriage was only legally granted to one free white man and one free white woman. Slaves were not allowed to marry.

            The right was then granted to free blacks (in 1825).

            Then it was legal for people of different races to marry each other, and then people of different faiths.

            You can say “yes, but throughout all of that, marriage was reserved for a man and a woman.” I suggest to you that when anti-miscegenation laws were debated, people said, “Yes but through all of history, marriage has been reserved for people of the same race.” Or “Yes but through all of history, marriage has been reserved for free people, not slaves.” Those arguments are not fundamentally different from your own.

            We as a society have constantly redefined our definition of marriage. Separate but equal is, quite frankly, not the same thing. No one is trying to force churches to marry same sex couples, and that you believe pro-gay marriage supporters are speaks to your ignorance on the subject, to be totally honest.

        • Lyssa

          I’m pro-gay marriage, but I’m fairly conservative in many other aspects and fairly involved, so I think that I have a least a little bit of a handle on the arguments. In my experience/opinion, I think that the slippery slope argument has a lot more of a grasp then people give it credit for. I know that people will say “sure, gay marriage is OK, and that doesn’t mean polygamy (or whatever bugaboo you’re concerned about)”, but the fact is, the same precedents are likely to apply. There are already some groups taking aim at anti-polygamy laws on the same grounds that gay marriage proponents are using, and there are some groups taking aims at religious freedoms (i.e., suing wedding services providers because they won’t serve gay weddings, etc.).

          Now, again, these arguments are not persuasive to me, because I think gay marriage is, on balance, a societal good (polygamy is not). But they do concern me, and I understand why they concern others. That argument, more than any other, is what I see conservatives who are against gay marriage really concerning themselves with. Does that help at all? Again, I’m only presenting the argument as I understand it persuading others, not making an argument for my own belief.

          • Super Anon for this

            Lyssa, I think you’re right. The ONLY argument that makes any sense to me at all is the slippery slope argument — if we allow gay marriage, then next thing we know we’ve got plural marriage, and marriage to minors, and farm animals and what have you. And I think the only intellectually honest response to that is “We as a society get to decide where we draw the line, and we are chosing to draw it here: Two people per marriage.”

            The “long tradition of marriage” argument to me is just ridiculous, as others have stated. MANY “traditional societies” have practiced polygamy, for crying out loud!

          • PollyD

            It’s really insulting to put marriage between two legally-consenting adults who just happen to be the same sex on the same “slippery slope” as bestiality and pedophilia.

          • shortiek

            I disagree with the argument because I think it stems from a place of fear.
            Here, gay marriage is equated with sexual deviancy and forms of non consenting relationships (farm animals, minors). An LGBT relationship between two adult men or two adult women or two *people* of nonstandard genders.
            I think too often straight people get caught up in the unfamiliar sexual aspect “gay sex! gross! unnatural!” of a LGBT relationship, and forget that these are regular consenting adults in love, that just want to get married to thier partner.

            Zach Wahls just wrote “My Two Moms”, about how his mothers raised him in Ohio and taught him about the values he learned in Boy Scouts. I think it’s a worthwhile read, and I hope more conservatives will take the time to read it?

      • NoVAAtty

        I’m not sure the “pro conservative” side comments are less tolerated. I just think the demographics of this blog may be more heavily weighted toward the “pro liberal” side. Know thy audience. If the vote had come out the other way and you were seeking sympathy, then if I were you, I would go to where your supporters would be, not somewhere where the demographic may not support that opinion.

      • cfm

        See this is what I don’t get. You think multiple divorces are bad too but people are ALLOWED to have multiple divorces. your allowed to think gay marriage is bad or icky or whatever. By all means, think its immoral this is a free country. But lots of immoral people are allowed to get married. Child molesters still have the right to get married. murderers, cheaters, tax evaders, people who are arrested for beastiality, people on reality tv shows. So the morality argument doesn’t make sense to me. The religious argument doesn’t make sense to me because I don’t think religions should be forced to perform marriages if they are private institutions. And if you just taking that Bible quote theres plenty of times where others have made a list of all the crazy quotes in the Bible that no one follows. So I just have never seen an argument against gay marriage that hasn’t been just prejudice.

      • anon

        This comment struck home for me, probably because I live in NC and ended up voting for the amendment, with some misgivings. I struggled for weeks with the decision and I’m still not sure that I made the right one. According to the tenets of my faith, marriage should be between one man and one woman for the procreation of children. That being said, I don’t particularly care about states choosing to recognize gay marriage or civil unions. Rather, my concern is about the effect of recognition of gay marriage on religious freedom. The contraception battle really underscored for me the fact that many democrats seem to feel that when religious free-exercise rights butt up against other rights they consider to be fundamental, those other rights trump. But I am a strong proponent of the free exercise of religion and rights of conscience. My biggest concern about the acceptance of gay marriage is that then the government would start trying to force churches to marry homosexuals or (more likely) force churches running adoption organizations to adopt to them and religious employers to provide benefits for them. I don’t particularly care if the government wants to give equal tax breaks/busts to homosexual and heterosexual couples. I also think that homosexual parents can be equally as good as heterosexual parents at raising children. But I deeply, deeply care about religious freedom. And I think that most proponents of gay marriage just don’t, or at least not with the same devotion that I do. So I ended up deciding that the constitutional amendment would do more to protect those rights than leaving the laws as is. And frankly part of me was just angry that of all the people I knew who opposed the amendment, no one would give credence to my concerns long enough to talk to me like I’m a human being about the issue.
        So even though the side I voted for won, I’m having a rough day because my heart hurts for the many people around me who so desperately wanted the amendment to fail and because I’m not sure that I made the right decision.
        Anyways, to the OP, I feel for your friend and I hope that you can give him the comfort he needs.

        • cfm

          This is the definition of cutting off the nose to spite the face. Religious freedom has never been absolute. You believe strongly in a freedom that doesn’t exist in the way you think it does. If my religion tells me to kill sinners, I can not. My religious freedom ends when it interfers with the rights of others. If the church is a private institution, it will never be forced to marry gay couples.

        • Batgirl

          Where I disagree with the religious liberty argument is that I believe religious liberties are held by individuals as much as by institutions. Infusing your religious views into your state constitution imposes your religious views on others, thereby stripping them of their own right to exercise their beliefs. For example, if it is my belief to do unto others as I’d have done to me, it is morally abhorrent to discriminate based on sexual orientation and yet my beliefs are being written out of the state constitution. They are just other sides of the same coin. As for contraception coverage, I think that an individual should decide what medication she takes, not her employer, whether that employer is religious or not. That doesn’t mean that religious employers need to pay for contraception (which they wouldn’t have even before the Obama compromise), but that they have to allow their employees to opt into health coverage that does not impose the employer’s religious beliefs on the employee.

        • Anon, since everyone else is

          I don’t get the freedom of religion argument in this case (I kind of do in the birth control argument, however).

          Doesn’t your logic mean that you’re basically asking the government to impose your religious views on people (one man/one woman)? Freedom of religion also includes freedom from religion.

          I get the concern about secondary effects on adoption and benefits, but that seems like a concern that is better addressed when it arises, rather than by a wholesale ban on gay marriage.

          I do I wonder how it would fly if certain religious organizations decided they didn’t want to allow couples where one party had been divorced to adopt or get benefits, or mixed race couples.

          • PollyD

            Or not allow the infertile to get married. If marriage is only for “one man and one woman for the purposes of procreation,” what happens if, after they are married, one member of the couple turns out to be infertile? Is the marriage invalid? Should they divorce so the fertile one can go on and procreate? Should couples be required to provide certification of an intact and functioning reproductive system before they are allowed to get married?

            Of all the arguments against gay marriage, I seriously don’t understand this one at all. I’m also saddened by people who argue against gay marriage because then those greedy gays will demand other rights, like the right to adopt or provide benefits to gay couples, as mentioned above. Is it really that destructive to society to provide the same benefits to everyone, regardless of who they sleep with? I just don’t get judging people based on their innate sexual preferences. What’s the argument for not letting a stable gay couple adopt versus a single heterosexual woman? Who knows what kind of mischief she’s going to get into!

          • Lilly

            Exactly. I got married for the first time when I was past my fertility sell-by date. Reproductively, I was expired. Yet, I don’t think anyone, however conservative, would have tried to say that I shouldn’t be allowed to marry. The procreation argument only seems to apply when it’s the gay-lesbian community at issue.

          • NOLA

            I have never understood any of the arguments against gay marriage or gay adoption. There is nothing there, to me, that undermines any of the rights of heterosexual people to stay married or not or to have children or not.

            My two friends (a couple – two men) have been together since about 1995. They moved to Oregon so they could adopt because Louisiana does not permit a gay couple to adopt. They have adopted two beautiful baby girls whose mother found herself “unable to parent.” They are a family. A committed couple with careers, with two children whom they have adopted together. And yet, without marriage, they would not have the rights of a married couple with two children.

            On the flipside, my ex-husband has now been married three times and has not had children in any of those marriages, so you can’t argue it’s been for procreation (thank goodness). How is this fair to my friends that any yahoo can get married and divorced as many times as he or she wants and pop out children but my friends can’t be married or adopt in the state where their families are?

            Sorry – this subject gets me hot under the collar.

          • cbackson

            To your point, my particular religious institution actively wishes it could offer marriage to gay couples on the same basis as to straight couples. People making the religious freedom argument against gay marriage often seem not to realize that the ban on legal gay marriage could be seen as restricting the religious freedom of other believers as well.

            (personally, although religious myself, I tend to take the libertarian perspective: get the state out of marriage entirely; offer civil unions only and let marriage be a religious practice, not a state function)

        • TCFKAG

          I’m not going to go anon for this particular comment. I’m just going to say this. I’ve attended at least one gay wedding at a religious institution. I know that churches in Massachusetts regularly marry gay and lesbian people all the time.

          Its great that your religion feels that marriage is between one man and one woman. But that doesn’t mean everyone’s religion does. Yours shouldn’t trump theirs.

          • CA Atty

            Bingo.

            And I want to say that I appreciate anon-who-started-this-sub-thread for speaking her mind and trying to explain her reasoning, and I actually appreciate the true thought and soul searching she clearly did in order to inform her vote. I appreciate that a heck of a lot more than the numerous people who went “gays?? EWWWW!” and voted for the amendment/against gay marriage.

            I do not appreciate the attempt/success at, though she didn’t think of it this way, I’m sure, to use the Constitution to enshrine her own religious views to the detriment of others.

          • TCFKAG

            Not to mention the fact that gay marriage has been going strong for a few years now in Mass and as far as I know the Catholic Church still seems to be rolling along pretty well. At least, they seem to be doing pretty good when I go to mass. Of course, they don’t help themselves every time a new scandal pops up (but that’s another thread for another day.) :-P

        • Susan

          Out of curiosity, do you consider the marriages of heterosexual couples that are infertile (who do not adopt children) or who opt not to have children to be sham marriages?

          I ask because you highlight the procreative aspect of the marriage.

          • anon

            So I think I need to differentiate what I consider a valid marriage in my church and what I consider to be valid marriages in other religions or civil services. I view all marriages that have the legal imprimatur of the state to be equally legally valid. I don’t view all such marriages to be equally sacramental. If you wanted to have a sacramental marriage in my church you would need to at least be open to the possibility of procreation, even if you ended up not being able to procreate because of age/infertility/etc.

            And to the responses about cutting off my nose to spite my face, I would note that I start with the position that gay marriage in and of itself is neither a social good nor a social evil. This is a fairly unusual position, I know. But I just don’t care one way or the other. I figured that this was the only amendment likely to make it onto the ballot any time soon and it was essentially a choice between an amendment that was way overbroad for my concerns and no amendment, with the likelihood that my fears would be realized in 10-15 years.

          • cfm

            ah. We are not talking about sacramental marriages. I’m fine with private institutions only offering ceremonies to certain people that’s not what we are talking about.

            And you don’t care one way or the other, but you voted agaisnt a right that is crucial, crucial to other people because of vaguely connected concerns that may never arise in 15 years.

            I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a jew.

        • Gail the Goldfish

          I’m going to ignore all arguments and ask this one, because I found it an interesting question: could the government force adoption agencies to adopt to anyone? I had a teacher in high school who was turned down for adoption because he was Jewish (even though his wife was Christian). As a friend of mine once said, “You can be as discriminating as you want when you’re handing out children.” (my friends are not particularly pc). What are the current laws/regulations on this?

          • anon

            I know that several Catholic adoption agencies in Massachusetts have had to close for refusing to adopt to gay couples. I tried to find a neutral source that talks about this, but a quick google search pulled up sources that are all fairly biased (on both sides), so I don’t feel comfortable posting one. It depends on the individual state’s civil rights laws, I suspect.

          • meara

            As anon said, yes, they totally can….but I think the real issue for me is, I GET what anon-who-voted-for-amendment is talking about, and I think many of those recent squabbles/decisions re: what do religions have to do when their religion differs with state law are totally things reasonable people can disagree about. However, I think part of my problem with some of those “Oh, the government is making us do things!” is that often times, it’s because they are accepting government money to do those things. Sometimes it’s the government saying “you can’t discriminate”…but often it’s the government saying “You can’t discriminate WHILE TAKING OUR MONEY”

            I mean, if a private Catholic adoption agency only wants to let Catholics adopt, I figure more power to them–maybe a certain mom might choose to use them because she wants her kid adopted by Catholic parents. But if they’re taking government money to do that? Not so down with it.

          • Supra

            My understanding is that they cannot in states where it is actual marriage. The law does not recognize a difference and the adoption agency cannot. However, I don’t know if this is because the accept state funding or what. I also would think that this would mean that they could not refuse to adopt to a non-Catholic couple. I don’t know what he mission of Catholic Charities adoption agencies are (i.e. place children in Catholic homes v. place children in suitable homes). If the law prevents them from refusing to adopt to married couples, then this includes same sex married couples.

        • Maru

          Anon, although I disagree with you, I really appreciate your effort to engage in an open conversation and your bravery in expressing what you knew would be an unpopular position on this blog.

          • ezt

            Everything to say on this topic has already been said a hundred times, I know – but it seems to me that the only reason anyone could possibly oppose same-sex marriage on religious grounds is by conflating religious marriage with civil marriage. I understand that the word “marriage” is a loaded one that has its roots in religious traditions – and maybe in an ideal world the government would call all civil unions, same-sex or otherwise “civil unions and be done with it – but it’s a loaded term for non-religious people too – it has a lot of cultural currency as a term that legitimizes and “normalizes” a long-term romantic relationship. I’m interested in what people think about that, though – is the word “marriage” what’s really curtailing progress here? If we started using that word in a purely religious sense, and called every other type of “marriage” something else, could we actually sidestep a big part of the problem?

          • CA Atty

            ezt, the only thought I have on this, and it’s not fully formed because quite honestly, I don’t know that I really want to get married. Some days I do, some days I don’t. And I am in a fully committed hopefully life-long relationship (2.5 years so far, woot!). However, I am an athiest. I wouldn’t get married in a church regardless (they creep me out) but I think there’s a strong attachment to the word “married.” When/If I get married, I want to be married! What else would I say “I’m civil unioned?” (Side note, I believe most gay people also want this ability.)

            And not just for me but other athiest/agnostic/unexamined-non-religious folks, some of whom may be very traditional would all be unable to say they are “married?” Seems harsh.

            Finally, what about mixed marriages, i.e. Jewish and Catholic? It seems to be the best, most fair and logical way is just to allow any two consenting adult non-closely-related people to get married in whatever venue they choose that chooses them back. This is supposed to be the land of the free after all!

          • cc

            CA I don’t think your fully getting ezt point. You want to say “married” not “civil union-ed” because of our culture. She is saying what if that cultural currecy didn’t exist. What if, for instance, the “sacrement of marriage” was instead like “the sacrement of ordaining your love religiously” and being in a legal family partnership was called civil unioned. What if there wasn’t that strong attachement. is the argument really about “marriage” or is it about civil rights or is it about prejudice

          • CA Atty

            cc, I see what you’re saying and I think that essential point “is this about marriage, or civil rights, or prejudice” is vital to the discussion. However, I do not think you can ignore the cultural currency on this issue. Maybe imagining an ideal world, which I think ezt was trying to do, is helpful to ascertaining that essential point, but ultimately change can ONLY come from the culture. Once the culture of discrimination against gay marriage (and gay people in general, though that’s a broader topic) passes (as it is doing as our demographics shift) we will hopefully see a change in the culture and gay marriage will be recognized.

            Sorry for the excessive use of parentheses, I’m trying to be clear and articulate while not taking too much time away from drafting an investigative report! :-)

        • Lindsay

          I hope your heart hurts you for a long, long time, and I hope you share your vote with the people in your life who are gay or have gay family members, and they make you realize the damage you have caused.

          Your church is safe, and it has always been safe. No one forces churches to perform marriages that churches are not comfortable performing. And by the way, gay marriage was already banned in your state.

          In reality, it is gay people who are being threatened, gay people who are being discriminated against, and gay people whose fundamental rights are being violated. Now you can go through life saying you did your part to prevent committed gay couples from doing things like getting health insurance, visiting each other in the hospital, raising children, and protecting themselves against violent partners.

          Signed,

          Church-going gay person in a committed relationship with a same-sex partner and two kids, who will see you in hell

          • Anon

            See, there is so much hate on both sides!

            In reply to ezt, yes there is always conflation between religious marriage and civil marriage. On both sides. I would go further and argue that a civil marriage is an offshoot of religious marriage. Gay people themselves always conflates both. Hence the struggle for legalized “marriage” and not a civil union.

            What I want is legalization and recognition of a civil union that affords gay couples the same legal rights like health insurance, hospital visits etc.

            Allowing gay marriage, not civil unions IS normalizing a homosexual relationship when such a relationship is not “normal”. What I find funny is th

          • CA Atty

            @Anon, well, calling homosexual relationship not “normal” definitely adds to the hate, just FYI. I’ve known quite a few gay people in my life and trust me, their relationships and romances and all the rest of their lives are 100% normal FOR THEM. Just like your relationship is normal FOR YOU. Your religion or lack thereof is normal FOR YOU.

            Separate but equal doesn’t work, and isn’t equal, remember?

          • Anon, since everyone else is

            Why wouldn’t you hate someone who called your committed relationship with kids ‘not normal’?

            If people are going to be discriminatory and bigoted, they can’t cry foul when called out on it.

          • Anon

            Yes, many people do use the argument of not normal to hate, but I am not and neither do many other people.
            You cannot argue that a homosexual relationship is “normal”. Yes it exists and definitely to be taken into consideration, but it is not “normal”.

            Now to call such relationships not normal invites bashing?

          • CA Atty

            Um, Anon, actually we can, and have, argued that gay relationships are normal. Because we, well, I’ll speak for myself, I, believe they are.

            You apparently do not believe so and are not able to even conceive of the other position. I find your unwillingness to concede that proponents of gay marriage believe that gay relationships are normal close minded and, in many cases, hateful.

            I can concede that some people do not believe that homosexuality in general is normal. The problem that creates is we will NEVER agree on gay marriage because if you believe something is abnormal, it does not get normal things’ protections. Thus, there’s really no point in discussing gay marriage with these people.

          • Anon, since everyone else is

            Oh yes I can argue that a gay relationship is normal — who are you to say what’s normal or not?

            That’s the WHOLE point of this — what is ‘normal’ for you isn’t normal for everyone else, and you don’t get to define what is normal and then start denying certain rights to people because you don’t think they are normal.

          • cfm

            I agree that it is not normal. In the majority of cases, people are born attracted to the opposite sex. That really has nothing to do with the argument though. People are born blind, that’s not normal. Born with only one leg isn’t normal. People have depression which isn’t normal. There are plenty of things that aren’t normal. That has nothing to do with a person’s right to get married though.

          • Anon

            Okay this is my last point on the topic since we cannot seem to convince each other.
            You are really arguing a straw man with respect to normalcy of a gay relationship.

            For me, (and if you want to take a logical look at the argument without conjuring up a straw man) is that a gay relationship is not normal within the laws of nature. Unless an organism is hermaphrodite, coupling is usually between the make and female of the species.
            So a gay relationship does not fit within that definition.

            Yes, a gay relationship is every bit a normal, boring and pedestrian as a straight relationship, but that is not what I am arguing here.

            On the flip side, just because I do not subscribe to your idea of what is normal, making me close minded and hateful in your eyes is hysterical. Maybe you should learn to extend other people the same courtesy of understanding that you demand from them.

          • CA Atty

            I’m not asking you to subscribe to my idea of what is and isn’t normal, I’m asking you to acknowledge that the argument exists. This is specifically what you denied when you said “You cannot argue that a homosexual relationship is “normal”.”

            Now you’re trying to say that you’re only using normal in one very narrow context rather than the regularly accepted meaning of the word. That’s fine, if you want to make that argument. I don’t agree with that argument either, but I’m not a biologist so all I can say is that I don’t agree.

            I’m not particularly sure why you’re now calling me hysterical, since you even agreed that “Yes, many people do use the argument of not normal to hate,” and I stated only that the refusal to acknowledge the normalcy of gay relationships is “in many cases, hateful.”

            I actually think we agree on that point, we’re just using different definitions of normal.

            Granted, I did state, and continue to think, that your unwillingness to even acknowledge that “my side” HAS an argument is close minded and you apparently found that hurtful, but I’m not really sure what else to call it. There is an argument, it’s eaten up a lot of posts on this board, and both sides have points that the other side finds to have varying degrees of validity. You can disagree with the points, but to not even acknowledge the argument is, well, close minded!

            I also don’t think this discussion ever convinces anybody. However, I , like the OP who asked for arguments for banning gay marriage, was curious as to what people believed are valid reasons not to support gay marriage. As previously stated, there are good arguments on either side of the abortion, taxes, capital punishment argument. There seems to be NO (again, for “my” side!) arguments with much if any validity on the anti-gay-marriage side. This thread has given me food for thought, as I’m sure it has others. That is the real point.

          • cfm

            CA I actually think your the one changing the definition. Normal means what happens most, the average thing that happens. Normally, opposite sexes are attracted. That is usually what happens. That is normal by definition. Normal doesn’t mean “the opposite of weird or gross”

          • oppressed

            Oh Anon, the hate of the oppressor is not the same as the hate of the oppressed. You helped make sure that children of gay couples are told by the state that their family is somehow lesser than your family. You helped keep people out of their loved one’s hospital rooms. You should feel bad. You did a bad thing.

        • Angry Anon

          I’m sorry your heart hurts today. My heart hurts too because today you and the people of North Carolina told my friends that their relationships weren’t worth anything and that they might as well leave the state. So…I’ll try to work up some sympathy tomorrow.

        • Super Anon for this

          You did make the wrong decision and you know it. Shame on you.

        • Anastasia

          to anon@ 12:46 : I am for gay marriage, but I appreicate you presenting your reasoning. I also care deeply about freedom of religion and rights of conscience, and never thought of the gay marriage amendments eroding those in quite the way you’ve described. That wouldn’t change how I would vote on this particular issue (I’m not in NC, anyway), but you make an interesting point about precedents for other rights “trumping” the rights of a [mainstream] religious institution to act according to its beliefs and where the line should be drawn for that being ok. I’ll have to think some more about it.

          cfm is right, though — if the Boy Scouts can ban gays, I’m sure the church can avoid dealing with them, too.

        • mamabear

          “Claiming that someone else’s marriage is against your religion is like being angry at someone for eating a doughnut because you’re on a diet.”

          • CA Atty

            I have always loved this quote. Point of clarification though, can I still be angry at someone for bringing in a whole BOX of donuts, wafting their scent into my office (I’m SURE it was intentional!!) and then leaving them just 10 steps from my desk chair because I’m on a diet???

            Just askin’…. :-P

          • mamabear

            @CA Atty, OK you can be angry, just don’t try to pass a law against it. :)

          • CA Atty

            Are you SURE?? Because after the donut debacle of last week today we have truffles!! WHY oh WHY!?!? :-P

        • AnonNC

          I am in NC and voted against the amendment. It makes me very sad that it has passed, but I believe that demographics will eventually overcome, and when Gen X, Gen Y and millenials are a bigger percentage of the voting age population, that gay marriage will be accepted and not legislated against. My teenage son literally could not comprehend why anyone would be for the amendment. That makes me glad.

          I don’t believe anyone is trying or will try to force churches to perform gay marriage; I haven’t seen that as anyone’s end game. The Methodist Church just passed a bill reaffirming that homosexuality is a sin, which boggles my mind, but the government is not getting into its business.

          I would submit that many of the anti-gay-marriage arguments today are the same as those used a generation ago about mixed-race marriage. I hope we can move past.

          I would also take exception to anon’s comment that she thinks pro-gay-marriage voters are not as committed (or “devoted”) to freedom of religion. How can you judge my commitment based on my support of civil gay marriage? Maybe my definition of freedom is more expansive than yours.

        • shortiek

          wow, thank you for your honesty.
          I actually think that the place you’re coming from (fear for your own religious freedom) is the same place that a lot of NC also voted from. It isn’t that all people in NC outright hate LGBT persons, it’s that they are afraid.
          However, I think your fear was misplaced. I suggest looking closer at where those fears come from, and look at whether making decisions from a place of fear is the most responsible course of action.
          (Honestly curious, it’s unlikely that I’ll be able to have children. If I were in your congregation, would I be able to marry my fiancee or would we have to leave the church?)

      • Super Super Super Anon

        Please take a look at this article. It is a little outdated but basically includes direct quotes from previous court decisions describing why the state has a vested interest in stable man-woman marriage. I would type out a summary, but honestly the judges’ opinions and legal document text are a lot more organized than my thoughts could be.

        http://marriagelawfoundation.org/publications/Ave%20Maria%201.pdf

        • Anony

          I’m sorry. Don’t have time to read that carefully, begin at work and all. But I don’t see what interests the state can have in stable man-woman families that it doesn’t also have in stable man-man or woman-woman families. You only can validly win those arguments if you think that adopted children, raised by gays and lesbians are somehow hurt by that. Since I vehemently disagree with that (and since any efforts to prove that in court or in any statistical way have been pretty much total failures), I struggle to really embrace this argument.

          And just to note, I’m a straight, married woman who is going to adopt for a variety of reasons. The idea that my marriage is less than yours because its non-procreative is pretty insulting.

          And if you really think that kids raised by gay or lesbian parents turn out so bad, I refer you to Zach Wahls and the thousands of excellent young adults like him in this country.

          • Super Super Super Anon

            Haha, well then Anony, you can’t really say you “don’t get it” if you haven’t read the argument from my side. This is the problem. You present people with well-reasoned arguments, supported by court decisions and academic discourses on the subject, and you get responses like this.

            Argue all you want, but until you’ve read the points, there is no point in talking to you.

          • Anony

            Ah, I should clarify. I have read similar arguments — I read and listened to the arguments in Prop 8 and have read the decisions and briefs in several other similar court decisions. I’m familiar with the state-based arguments for the state interest in “traditional” marriage. But I disagree with them.

            And then?

        • Super Super Super Anon

          Also, will have to note that one would actually have to READ this article to understand the concepts discussed. That is, it’s not allowed to read the first two pages, throw the document against the wall, yell “b*got,” and then tell people from my side of things that you don’t get it.

          Well, if you don’t get it, it’s probably because you’ve never actually *thought* about the arguments presented and you have not taken the time to really understand why the state has a vested interest in marriage and how some of the “counter-examples” always given (ex., infertile people shouldn’t get married) don’t really hold up to scrutiny.

          • cfm

            States interest: Procreation. “Further, it is apparent that no same-sex couple offers the possibility of the birth of children by their union. Thus, the refusal of the state to authorize same-sex marriage results from such impossibility of reproduction rather than from an invidious discrimination “on account of sex.” In no other marriage does the state examine whether the couple has the ability or desire to procreate. The state does have an interest in encouraging procreation, it benefits society. That’s why there are tax breaks for married couples and families with children. Couples in general are more likely to have children than single people. Allowing gay marriage would encourage adoption. For this argument to stand you would have to not allow marriages between people who know they cannot have children before the marriage. no one ever argues that though. next.

            Child rearing: “This interest is usually advanced through the argument that children
            are better provided for in the setting of a male-female marriage,
            although the existing cases do not specify the exact bases on which
            child well-being is assessed.” ORLY. the article made my own point for me there.

            Tradition: as stated above, we have had some really f up traditions. Slavery was around in the world for hundreds of years. Women were property for hundreds of years. Dont throw in tradition as a legal argument. It’s not one.

            Interstate uniformity: Prob the weakest argument of all. “A final interest asserted in a number of cases relates to the fact that, if a court were to redefine marriage, it would place the law of that state at odds with the laws of every other state.” the article flat out says this has not been compelling in any of the cases.

          • Super Super Super Anon

            cfm, sounds like you may not have read the whole article. The article goes on to describe some of your ‘refutations’ in greater depth. Did you read the part about intentionality in homosexual reproduction? Probably not. You probably stopped reading early on.

            Similarly, the article talks about tradition in a much larger, societal sense. It’s not as superficial as saying “Well, we like it this way, so it shouldn’t change, nanner nanner.” The arguments are actually quite sophistocated and should be read carefully in their entire context to be understood and evaluated.

          • cfm

            Also did you read the footnotes in the article? 1. Most of those cases are over 30 years old, and they quote often from the Vermont and MA case… which they lost. Many of the quotes are from the losing side so..

          • Anony

            Super super anon…just because we disagree with the article doesn’t mean we haven’t read it or don’t understand it. These are pretty basic legal arguments that have been tossed around for years on this issue. Those of us on the other side have considered them and disagree with them.

            It is apparent that you aren’t going to agree with us. But saying that we are closed-minded because we don’t agree with you is just wrong-headed. THis is frustrating. Conservatives, especially conservative Christians, are especially good at playing this false victim card “oh no body understands us they don’t listen to us they’re all so close minded”. Sometimes people listen to you and disagree with you. That’s life.

          • cfm

            I read it very carefully, and responded only to what you asked me to respond to, “the judges’ opinions and legal document text.” The arguments, were quite frankly, very unsophisticated. You are making a legal argument against gay marriage because… you might have to talk about in public school and people would get mad about that?

            Nothing about gay people getting married counteracts the states interest in promoting marriage. I will concede that society, as a whole, needs male and females to procreate. The article seems to assume that if we don’t allow gay marriage, gays will give up and marry opposite sex people and become productive procreating members of society.

          • momentsofabsurdity

            SuperSuperSuper Anon – I want you to know I have printed out the article to read when I get home. I will read it carefully.

            However, on its face, the idea that the state’s compelling interested in heterosexual procreation being a reason that homosexuals should not marry doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Gay people will not give up and become straight and procreate naturally because homosexual marriage is outlawed. Nor will straight people give up and become gay, reducing procreation and stable family units. However, I will reserve further judgment until I have read the article in full.

          • anon here

            I skimmed it and found the arguments to be largely without merit. Basically, I feel like the document is expressing why it is beneficial to society to have two responsible adults maintaining a household together, particularly if the hosuehold includes children. I didn’t see anything compelling about why it’s better for the state if the two responsible adults happen to be a man and a woman rather than two individuals of the same gender. Honestly, I am ok with people rejecting the idea of same-sex marriage on religious grounds (although I disagree), but the State cannot use that argument, and they haven’t really come up with any good alternative arguments.

            “Complementarity” wherein it is recongized the s*xes are non fungible, and that a community made up of of only one gender is fundamentally different than a community made up as both. Therefore marriage between a man and a woman is desirable because it keeps the gender ratio more even? The idea that homosexual couples would self associate to communities that are only one gender seems kind of ridiculous to me.

            “In addition to these factors, the nature of the opposite-sex
            marriage provides two significant additional benefits to society which
            justify its preservation. First, marriage provides an institution where
            men and women are valued equally. As currently understood, there
            can be no marriage without both sexes. Neither sex can be excluded
            without impairing the institution. ”

            This is another topic for another thread (or one of the many that have addressed it before), but the idea that we need to keep marriage around so that men and women can be valued equally…. well, i’m not sure where to start.

          • NoVAAtty

            There are 100,000 children in the US waiting for adoption and countless million more in another countries. Until every child is adopted the “we need men and women to procreate” argument falls on deaf ear. It is apparent that we DON’T need that.

          • Anon

            Something like 200,000 people are added to the planet every single day. I would argue that we need LESS people. The world does not have indefinite resources!!

      • Anne Shirley

        Sometimes people’s opinions are wrong, and hateful, and don’t deserve tolerance

      • I'm also "pro-life, pro-man-woman-marriage, pro-many socially conservative things I’m sure a lot of people would unrespectfully flame me for"

        Thank you for saying something. It makes me feel less alone wrt political discussions.

        • opposite side of the coin

          Not to be rude. I know you’re accustomed to feeling offended on the internet, but anytime there is any form of political conversation on this website, there are always several very vocal conservative voices, including several participating in this discussion. Plus, I think people here generally try to be respectful of difference.

          • cfm

            In past discussions, that respect has disapeared towards people with conservative view points. It was very intolerent.

          • opposite side of the coin

            I struggle with this, because I’ve been part of some of these and avoided others. But I think the vast majority of people try to be respectful, with a few rude people on both sides. But you can’t say its disrespectful because they disagree, even vigorously, because that’s the nature of the beast. But it rarely if ever descends into personal attacks or insults.

          • cfm

            I found it did get very personal, very sarcastic, and insulting. I’m all for disagree. Being younger, I am still fleshing out my position on some issues so I love reading respectful disagreements. But I did find that the conservative viewpoints were being very respectful (perhaps even p*ssy footing around their arguments because of the majority) while the opposite view point got very sarcastic and insulting.

          • anon

            With all due respect, when posters are talking about denying others equal treatment or are arguing that their lifestyles are not normal, it is very easy to have it feel personal.

          • cfm

            Im not talkig about this conversation at all. Im talking about in other discussions when people expressed conservative view points. This convo has been very civil I think

    • TCFKAG

      Well, for those interested, and since we haven’t argued enough about this today…Facebook is telling me President Obama is going to come out in support of same-sex marriage on ABC today apparently.

      Not wildly shocking frankly…but interesting nonetheless.

      • GRA

        And CNN breaking news just told me that: President Barack Obama thinks “same-sex couples should be able to get married.”

      • cc

        I am actually pretty suprised by this. Obama tends to kind of try to have it both ways. I thought he might have more to loose than to gain by announcing this. (Pro gay marriage people were going to vote for him anyway. I don’t think you have many moderates or non voters who are now going to be spurred into action voting for him. But I think you will have people who now come out against him who weren’t going to vote)

        • CA Atty

          I agree. I’m not really sure what the “strategy” is here, even if it is a position I agree with.

          A friend of mine posits: “Frankly, I’m OK with it, and I’m OK with it because I agree with it. I strongly suspect that he’s for it, but his handlers told him during the election “Dude, you can’t afford to lose that much of the centrists- be mildly against it, you can change your mind later,” and then he jumped on the chance (to change his position/mind) here.”

          I also don’t know why this is the appropriate moment, in response to NC? That seems…tacky, I guess, to me. I mean, “hey gays, I know NC just b*tch slapped you, but the day after it might have made a difference, I want the world to know I’m on YOUR side!!”

          • cfm

            agree I don’t get the strategy either. He is not going to do anything about it he is saying that he personally thinks its good. So he gains no voters, but potentially loses them.

          • TCFKAG

            He filled out one of those candidate forms when he was running for something small in the ’90s saying he was for it. He’s been for it personally the whole time, at least that’s what I think.

            I actually think that this decision has a little to do with NC but also a lot to do with the fact that he’s meeting with two powerful liberal lobbying groups this week, including a major GLBT group. There are also several major GLBT fundraisers working with his campaign this year (including one of the founders of FB and his husband), which can’t hurt.

          • momentsofabsurdity

            TCFKAG and cfm – I think it has a lot to do with the long game, to be honest. This announcement means Romney will be able to pull back those who were going to abstain from this election altogether, since they don’t really trust him as a “real” conservative. But to do so, he will have to come out vehemently in opposition to same sex marriage, especially since he’s been publicly in favor of granting same sex couples rights in the past. It will possibly motivate him to choose an evangelical/socially conservative VP-nom. Doing these things will push independents (who favor gay marriage in 2-1 margins) closer to Obama.

            Obama seems to be using support for gay marriage as a wedge issue since Dems overwhelmingly support it (and if they don’t, don’t hate it to the point where it would push their vote to Romney), independents support it with wide margins, and Repubs even more vehemently (4 to 1 margins in the last poll I saw) oppose it. I think it’ll help him in the end.

          • Gail the Goldfish

            Campaign dollars.

            Voters are nice. Dollars may be nicer for elections, however. (Me, cynical and thinking the American public is easily swayed by ads? no…)

    • Trying to be honest

      My heart breaks for all of us.

      It is clear that people are trying to understand one another, but are so deeply tied (on an emotional/spiritual level) their “side,” that they are unable to discern a critique of logic from a critique of values.

      Call me crazy, but I think consenting adults should be allowed to form family-like commitments in a way that allows benefits like health care to extend to everyone in the unit. Yes, I would be fine with state sanctioned polygamy.

      Now if you walked into my church and asked me about your same se* marriage or your polygamist union, I would tell you that there are deep tensions in the faith. I would tell you that I would hope that people wouldn’t have a homosexual orientation the same way I would tell you I would hope people wouldn’t suffer from depression. I wouldn’t call you “bad” or not “normal” for struggling with either of these. Yes, I know that I am equating homose*ual *exual activity with an ailment. I often wonder why I maintain this negative view of homose*ual *exual activity. To be honest, I am not sure if it is my religious conviction or a lingering prejudice that I have not been able to shake.

      –A North Carolinian who voted against the amendment as a Christian that advocates no sex outside of marriage.

      • momentsofabsurdity

        FWIW – as a Christian who’s given some thought to this issue as well – I found this speech (shown both recorded on the youtube video at the link and in text form below) quite fascinating.

        http://matthewvines.tumblr.com/

  19. Mother's Day

    Do any other moms HATE this holiday? I have a toddler, so I’m a mom, but I really dread this holiday every year. Part of me wants to stay home and spend the day with myhusband and kid, but then I get guilt trips from MIL and my own mom for not coming to see them. (About a 2.5 hour drive to where they live, and spending the weekend isn’t ideal, so it’s a long day of driving.)

    Is Mother’s Day about me, as a mom, or about my mom? When does it shift? (Husband works out of town 5 days a week and works locally on Saturdays, so celebrating with just us on Saturday isn’t an option.)

    I work about 50 hours a week and spend every other free minute taking care of my child because husband isn’t around and I feel like I already pay my nanny so much every week that I hate to hire a babysitter just so I can go get a pedicure or go for a run or to dinner with a friend, so part of the problem is that I have no “me” time right now. I can’t decide if I want the day all to myself to go ride my bike or hike or read, or if I want to spend it doing something fun with my kid/husband, or if I should just suck it up, pack up the car and drive to the next state to see all the relatives and keep everyone happy. (The worst part is, the moms are the ones I want to see the least. It would be nice to spend time with Grandmas, siblings, nieces/nephews, etc, but both my mom and his are not on the top of the list of people I want to hang out with right now.)

    What do you moms do for Mother’s Day and how do you decide which will leave you feeling less guilty/slighted?

    Oh, and if I’m being a brat, just tell me. I’m 6.5 months pregnant, so hormones may be contributing to irrational, childlike thinking :)

    • NOLA

      I ignore Mother’s Day altogether – or at least I try to. I am not a mother and no longer have my mother or either grandmother. Weird holiday for me.

    • anon

      Can you celebrate Grandparent’s Day with your Mom and MIL instead? :)

      They’ve had 30+ years of being a mom, and you’ve had less than 5. And while your mother with always be your mother, you probably require significantly less mothering now, than you did when you were little, so I think it’s your turn to be the “Mother” in Mother’s Day, and set your schedule as you see fit.

    • SpaceMountain

      We go to IKEA. My dad and my husband wouldn’t go otherwise, but my mom and I can make them go b/c it’s Mothers’ Day. The store is mostly empty because nobody else goes to IKEA on Mothers’ Day, the guys are there to carry stuff, and nobody is allowed to whine.

      • KC

        This is genius. And far more practical than many mother’s day traditions. Filing this away for the future.

      • HippieEsq

        I agree! Space Mountain is my person of the week for this suggestion. I am going to be a mom soon, and Ikea will be my “demand” for Mothers’ Day.

    • CW

      I’m not a mom, but I do think that when you become a mom that you have the right to celebrate Mother’s Day the way you want to (I know my MIL and own mom would vehemently disagree — they think we have an obligation to celebrate with them).

      I think a reasonable compromise would be 1) have your MIL and mom drive to you for a family dinner on Saturday (after your husband is finished at work), and celebrate Mother’s Day however you want on Sunday, or 2) tell your MIL and mom that you’re going to celebrate Mother’s Day at home on Sunday, and that you’ll plan to travel to them next week (or some other planned date) to celebrate with them then. This removes the feeling of obligation.

      They’ll be upset and try to make you feel guilty. You can only control your response. Better yet – have your husband tell your MIL. You’re 6.5 months pregnant, and don’t want to be in the car for a 5 hour round trip – totally understandable, and your husband should stick up for you to his mom.

    • TCFKAG

      Brainstorm! Send your husband and your child to the adjoining state to see the grandparents and YOU stay home and eat ice cream and get a pedicure. Everyone wins (except maybe your husband.) :-)

      • TCFKAG

        Plus, added bonus, you can blame not going on being pregnant (this year) and next year on having the infant and by then its a pattern. Tada!

        • AIMS

          Not just a pattern, but a tradition!

          Actually this is what I see every Mother’s Day in NY: men with kids, alone; mothers, alone, getting pedicures. It always makes me laugh because when father’s day comes around a few weeks later it’s *always* the whole family out to brunch, but, obviously, the presumption is that mothers would like to be left to their own devices on mother’s day.

    • anon too

      Interesting comment…. I was just thinking about this. My mom died when I was 14, and I have felt very weird about the “holiday” ever since. By the time I was in my mid-20s, both of my grandmothers had passed, and so, I felt even stranger. I am religious, and I tend to avoid attending religious services on Mother’s Day every year because of the pain of not having a mother.

      Now, I am married, and I realized that my husband and his brother had done nothing to recognize their mother (who is a bit difficult and definitely has low self-esteem) on Mother’s Day. So, I quickly began sending cards and small gifts every Mother’s Day, which have been very well received, after years of trying to avoid the holiday all together.

      This Mother’s Day I am 13 weeks pregnant, and we are going to be with my in-laws on Mother’s Day because of a family wedding. As part of my mother-in-laws gift, my husband and I are going to announce my pregnancy with the inclusion of a sonogram picture in a Mother’s Day card. So, essentially, I will be announcing to my in-laws that I am becoming a mother on Mother’s Day.

      This morning I was trying to grapple with the idea of celebrating a holiday that I have tried to ignore for so long. In a year, I too will become a mother, and I do not know if I want my children to dwell on the day because of the pain that it has caused me in the past.

      I think the answer to your question is that you have to decide how you want your children to perceive the day.

      • Ada Doom Starkadder

        Shortly after giving birth to me, my mother was given the sad news that her mother had died. (Overseas) relatives hid that from her, and the illness (cancer) that had killed my grandmother, because they thought that was kinder. I consider that a vote of non-confidence– that they didn’t treat my mother as an adult, fully capable of processing grief, and they robbed her of the opportunity to see her mother one last time, or to talk about the things one would want to talk about if you knew someone was dying. Anyways, my mother also grieved terribly every Mother’s Day, so I hear ya.

        But….congratulations on your becoming a mother, and good on you for building a relationship with your MIL.

        • CA Atty

          That is a horrible thing for your mother’s relatives to do! I can’t believe anyone would do that (yes, even after reading about some of our parents’ quirks “hey honey, dad’ll be out of the hospital soon” “Dad was IN the hospital!?”)

          • Ada Doom Starkadder

            Yeah, and the thing is, my mother’s relatives were really operating in what was the cultural norm of that time. In their country, and amongst folks of their socio-economic class, it was also not uncommon for doctors to lie to terminal patients about, well, their terminal illness. But the doctors would tell the other relatives so they could all prepare to handle the patient with kid gloves or whatever they were planning to do. (Sometimes, the relatives planned to force the patient to sign over all property rights and money even before death, because they knew the patient was vulnerable. This usually worked for the greedy relatives because the culture was and still not a very litigious one.)

            I find a lot of American medical regulations cumbersome and sometimes puzzling, but doctor-patient confidentiality, as well as patients having more of a right to know about their conditions and what the real prognosis is…those are all good things.

      • Anon

        I just announced my pregnancy in the exact same way this past weekend (we celebrated a week early). Congrats to you!

      • AIMS

        Anon too, I don’t know you but I am sorry for your loss. Your comment is very moving, and I think it’s really lovely of you to recognize your MIL this way. I also think your announcement is sure to make everyone’s day a little brighter. Congratulations.

        My father passed away when I was 20, and I have all sorts of conflicting feelings about it (that part of weddings where the bride dances with her father is particularly difficult), but I’ve found that it helps to add happier traditions to the difficult days. So now, for instance, on my dad’s birthday, I try to do something he would have really enjoyed (e.g., watch one of his favorite movies and drink some good cognac), and it helps me feel closer to him and less mournful about the whole situation. You cant take away the sadness, and I am sure it will always be a bittersweet day for you, but perhaps with your own little one on the way, the day can become less difficult for you, too. Maybe to acknowledge your loss, you could do something ceremonial to mark your mom and your grandmoms and all the other mothers who are no longer there with a little ritual (plant some flowers? light a candle? help out at a women’s shelter?) and as your child grows older, maybe you can do it together and it will be a new family tradition that your child can pass down to your grandchildren.

    • anon

      I’m in the same stage of life you’re in, and I agree that it’s awkward. I don’t think I’ve mentally made the transition to “I’m a factor on Mother’s Day, too!” I lean toward trying to make the day special for my mom and MIL, and here’s why: before I became a mom, I didn’t really see Mother’s Day as a big deal and probably didn’t give it enough thought or attention. Now I’m much more adamant about making sure our moms feel special. I guess I don’t expect much in return because a) my son is 2 — how the heck would he “celebrate” me? and b) I really don’t believe it’s my husband’s job to shower me with Mother’s Day gifts.

      I don’t think you’re being a brat. I think you’re a typical mom of young children who needs a break and some rest! If you want alone time, ask for it. Just realize that it doesn’t necessarily have to be this weekend, you know?

    • Always a NYer

      Right now you’re thinking about “you” and how “you” don’t want to be with your mother and MIL on Mother’s Day because “you” yourself are a mother as well. I wouldn’t call you a brat because you are entitled to feel however you want but I will pose this question:
      How would you feel if 20+ years from now you found out your children didn’t want to see you on Mother’s Day because they had their own families and wants? Whatever your answer is, chances are that is how your mother and MIL will feel.

      • anon

        When my kids were toddlers, “me time” was the best possible treat for me. On Mothers Day, I definitely wanted my husband to take the kids so I could do something self-indulgent on my own. It did somethings seem odd that my Mothers Day gift was time away from my kids, but that’s just what I needed at the time.

      • Emily I

        I respectfully disagree, Always a NYer. How you would feel in a certain situation is not always how other people will feel. For example, if I told my mom that I love her and thank her for everything she’s done for me (which is a lot!), but I wanted to spend Mother’s Day with my husband and kids on our own, I am confident she would be completely fine with that. She is a generous, thoughtful, low-drama mama, and she wants me to be happy. My MIL, on the other hand, will never be happy, even if we threw her a week-long parade. I also think that in 20 years, if my daughters are 6.5 pregnant and live 2.5 hours away and chose not to make the trip with their toddlers to see me on some arbitrary holiday, I will be completely fine with that, too.

        Obviously the OP has a different relationship with her mother and MIL than I have with my mom. But I don’t think she has to feel guilty for her extremely, extremely reasonable desire to just stay home.

      • Senior Attorney

        My son is 25 and not married yet, but when he is married and has a family, I will be THRILLED if he chooses to spend Mother’s Day spoiling the mother of his children instead of with me! That will show me, once again, that I raised him right!

        • Always a NYer

          I don’t think one should not spend time with their immediate family (i.e. spouse and children v. parents). But why does it have to be zero-sum? The OP could invite them to her house, thus eliminating the hassle of driving. If she wants to get away from them at some point, she can excuse herself and say she needs a nap leaving the grandparents to spend time with kids. As for the hassle of hosting, her husband can take care of it.

          My comments come from me being very family-orientated and never wanting to exclude family from important days and hurt them, unintentional or not. Even if my mother told me she understood it would still k!ll me, I couldn’t do it. To each her own.

    • CKB

      Mother’s Day is important to me because I had 3 m/c before finally having a successful pg (now I have 3 boys). The MDs that I endured during those m/c years were horrible becuase I wanted nothing more than to be a mom and I wasn’t. It really, really sucked and involved lots of tears. Now, while I at the very least call my mom on MD, and when we lived near mil we often spent time with dh’s family on MD, I fully admit to being selfish on MD and wanting it to be at least partly about me. Actually, this selfishness has subsided somewhat over the years (oldest ds is 12) but I still want to be celebrated. I try to both spend time with my family as my boys are old enough now that they often have made me something at school or church, and we can do something fun as a family but I also try to carve out a couple of hours for myself to sew or do something else just for me.

      I hope I don’t sound crazy about this. I am usually a very low maintenance woman (dh often comments on how he appreciates that about me) but MD is one of the only times during the year that I expect something nice to be done. And it doesn’t have to be huge or even big, but I definitely want the recognition in some way because I love being a mom and I feel like I went through alot to get to this point.

      I always take a few moments, however, to think about those women who are in a similar place that I was in a few years ago. My heart goes out to them, and I hope that they will realize their desires of being mothers soon.

      • Anon for this

        That’s very thoughtful of you to remember the women who are currently stuck in infertility. I do the same thing, including remembering the disappointed non-mothers (never-married, or divorced and not remarried) who didn’t want to be single parents.

        Some of us have no children, some of us have fewer than we expected, but all of us can still find ways to contribute to the world. After all, that’s part of being an overachieving…hen? (Kat’s slogan is great, but personally I’m too old to be a chick, even if “hen” sounds terrible!)

      • Sigh

        This is my first post MC Mother’s Day and right now I just want to get past this weekend and all the commercials.

    • MaggieLizer

      It’s incredibly selfish for your mom and MIL to expect you do drive 5 hours with a toddler when you’re 6.5 months preggers on a day that’s supposed to be about celebrating you for all the work you do as a mom. If they want to see you, they can come to you.

    • meme

      Send a card or a gift and celebrate with your own little family in a way that makes you happy. It’s your day too. This year a friend and I are going shopping for the day and the husbands are keeping the kids and hanging out together/preparing Mothers Day dinner for all of us post shopping. It was my husband’s idea and is perfect for me this year because I have a baby and little to no time entirely to myself. And I need a wardrobe update but never get a chance to shop sans kiddos. Then we’ll all have dinner together and I get to bask in just how much joy my little ones bring me!

    • V

      5 hours of non-PG driving –> 7.5 hours PG driving when you factor in pee breaks? In one day? WITH A TODDLER?

    • V

      For something you can do, maybe have a photographer come take pictures of your family? Or dress up a bit and take pictures. Things change so fast when children are young and this is something you will have forever. You could even send some pictures to your M and MIL. They probably have enough stuff by now. This will give them more of their family.

    • mamabear

      My mom lives 3 1/2 hours away and I haven’t visited her on Mother’s Day in years. I just mailed her gift and a nice card my kids and I signed, and I’ll call her on the day. Sometimes I send flowers instead of a gift. But I’m a mom too, and she understands that my kids want to do something for me on Mother’s day.

      (In fact, my kids have already told me their plans. My 11 year old daughter is making me breakfast. My 9 year old son plans to take me to see the Avengers movie – his choice not mine, but I think it’s pretty cute that he’s so sincere about it.)

      My mom hates to go out for breakfast or dinner on Mother’s Day anyway, because everyone else is doing it and she hates crowds. So we’ll visit her some other weekend and take her out.

      Don’t feel bad. You have to stop at some point. I had a harder time convincing my Mom that Santa comes down the chimney at my house, not hers.

      • Susan

        My Mom hates going out or getting together on Mother’s Day for the exact same reasons– crazy crowds.

        Also, she thinks it’s a Hallmark Holiday for people who can check the box by doing something cliched on that day and then going back to ignoring their mothers the other 364 days of the year. She cares more about the quality of our interactions throughout the course of our lives.

    • Anonymous

      My husband buys me peonies and the kids make efforts to serve breakfast in bed. Otherwise, that’s it and I’m completely fine with it. I basically get a semi-mellow day, but not really.

      The last few years, however, I wind up hosting a late lunch because my toddler’s birthday is May 12. So we have family over for birthday cake.

      • anon today

        Really?! It’s just about you? It may seem selfish to have mom want you to drive to them but I don’t see the OP inviting mom and MIL to her. Not making any effort is selfish. And if you think your actions will leave someone slighted, you shouldn’t do it. Period.

        • Senior Attorney

          I think when you’re pregnant and have a toddler, anybody who expects you to take a long car trip OR entertain company is selfish. And everybody is responsible for his or her own feelings — if they want to feel slighted that’s on them.

        • Anon and Irritated

          Whoa, that’s a bit too broad! “If you think your actions will leave someone slighted, you shouldn’t do it. Period.” Really? Well, when family lives so far apart that you can only go to one for Christmas, whichever one you don’t choose will feel slighted. What do you do then?

          People are responsible for their own d*mn feelings and if they are so self centered that they can’t see the genuine efforts I make at every opportunity and appreciate the very real challenges and impossibilities in making everyone happy, then EFF them.

          Look, sorry that got a little impassioned, but I have a large extended family and every single freaking holiday when I was growing up was a battle between mom’s side and dad’s side and mom’s siblings who didn’t want to have the holiday with others of mom’s siblings and dad’s siblings who didn’t want to have the holiday with dad’s parents and ON and ON and ON and ON. And we (4 kids less than 10 years from oldest to youngest) were always expected to drive at LEAST 3 hours each way. Please.

          There’s only one of OP and she’s flipping pregnant and with a small child. No way in heck should her mom or MIL want/require/ask her to come to them. They may want to have a conversation about what they will/can do, i.e. we can come there, we can meet for brunch part-way, etc…but most likely someone is going to feel slighted if they don’t get their way. Them’s the breaks and OP is under no obligation to break her own back trying to satisfy two people who’s children are grown ups!

        • Away Game

          Honestly, I think we need to cut the number of holidays in half and everyone needs to slim down expectations, especially when kids become adults and have their own families of any shape or size (or no family, and think holidays alone on the couch in decades-old sweats with a Bud Lite is The Best Holiday Ever). Mother’s Day is just a small blip compared to the guilt extravaganza that the winter holidays tend to bring, but similar. I honestly think there are a whole lotta adults acting like toddlers. If a parent of adult children is used to hosting an event for X holiday, and the adult child says “no, thank you,” the proper response from everyone is “ok, hope you have a great holiday [doing whatever you’re doing].” None of this “but it won’t be the same if one of my kids and his/her family isn’t here because whataboutthecousins and butwe’vealwaysdoneitthisway!” Or – “butgrandmaalwayshosts” even when grandma is pretty f’ing tired of always hosting. Families – including new families – get to set their own traditions or to change them. And while change can be sad, it’s what new families and new adults do. Mothers/parents/kids/cousins/siblings/ILs who feel “slighted” becuase so-and-so isn’t going to travel, or to host, or to participate in the family tradition – for any reason – is being selfish, IMHO.

    • s

      I so feel your pain, although the circumstance is a little different. I’m a step mom and without biological children (by choice). So it becomes a holiday where I’m constantly bombarded with messages where I feel less somehow. People in restaurants or store clerks wish me happy mother’s day (hello–no kids around me, why do you think I’m a mom?), friends ask me what I’m doing that day to celebrate–which is weird since we obviously won’t have my stepson (and I’m not his mom anyway), and my husband sends me cards from the dog since he doesn’t quite know what to do–I mean I’m not his son’s “mom” (Yes, I do mom like things like do his laundry, have helped with homework, etc. and probably have more conversations with him than his actual mom–but heaven forbid you step anywhere near “mom” territory. And honestly, I don’t think I’d be comfortable with it anyway.) It’s also a time of year where I rarely see my own mom since she always has plans with my brother who has oodles of kids and his wife’s mom doesn’t live nearby. Honestly, I wish the whole forced holiday would go away sometimes. I miss when I wasn’t mom age and childless, because it didn’t bring up all these other weird things.

      (And for what it’s worth, I don’t think you should feel a bit guilty if you spend the day however it makes you happy. Your mom and grandma have had their moments through the years, so it should be your time now.)

    • Seventh Sister

      I don’t really like it either. My MIL wants it to be all about her, and she loves close so we can’t really opt not to see her that day. I’d rather be respected the other 364 days of the year than patronized the one Sunday (given all the grandstanding that goes into Mother’s Day).

  20. Gem

    I’d like to thank those ladies who advised me re shoes for dancing lessons. The man and I went for the first time last night and had a blast (despite being generally dire in skill level). I can’t wait to go back next week!

  21. Anonymous

    Question for ladies with disproportionately broad shoulders (well, I like mine just fine, but clothing manufacturers seem to think they’re out of line): What to do about suiting jackets?

    Specifically, JCrew size 6 Aubrey suit jackets fit me best in the body, but are too small in the shoulders. Better to go up to an 8 and tailor the waist in a little bit, or buy a 6 tall? (I’m 5’9″).

    Also, any good brands for broad shoulders? And is this even something you think people notice? I’ve just started noticing how the shoulders on my jacket end too early and leave a weird bit of puckered sleeve, and it’s bothering me, but maybe I’m just being silly?

    Thanks!

    • momentsofabsurdity

      I have broad shoulders and have found shoulders are almost impossible to tailor – so I try to buy things that fit in the shoulder and tailor the waist. “Tall” jackets don’t work for me, because I’m short waisted (I’m a classic 8 shape).

    • rosie

      No experience with J.Crew, but in BR I go 6 tall for suit jackets (broad shoulders and long arms, 5’8”). When a jacket doesn’t fit right throughout the arm and sleeve, it is very uncomfortable for me to wear, so I haven’t gotten to the part where I think about if people notice.

    • MJ

      Former swimmer/water polo player here.

      It is imperative that you find brands that fit your shoulders and then tailor down. However, some suit jackets are just not very easy to tailor. So you have to keep searching. I had a swimmer V-body and then sprouted hips, so I am more of an X now (not busty). I find that Benetton and JCrew are best for me, but it is always a struggle. I also require Talls, as I am 5’11”.

      The one piece of advice I would give you on suit jackets is that they are key…if you think it doesn’t look right, it probably doesn’t. Don’t “shoehorn” yourself into a jacket that’s not right.

  23. fresh start

    I’m leaving my biglaw job next week to spend more time with my family and then perhaps go back to school or look for a position at a non-profit. I’m terrified. The financial part will be hard but the biggest issue is that I don’t know who I am anymore without the structure of work and the discipline/sacrifices that necessitates in all aspects of my life. Any recommendations for books on discovering yourself/ midlife crisis/career change or the like? Or advice on things to do and not do. I want to take this as an opportunity to create the life I want and not merely to drift into the next thing. Thanks.

    • ss

      Tell someone you love and trust about the terror. Let them know that you hope you’ll look back in time and laugh at it, but that you may need them to give you a hand, a sympathetic shoulder or a sharp-ish shake or two while you get there.

      I had a similar terror a few years back when I left my very large banking job. It was a bit difficult to articulate without sounding melodramatic but describing my fears to a sympathetic ear (my husband’s) really helped to contain them. And then as it turned out, my next step came about easily and naturally.

      Good luck and don’t forget to enjoy your breathing space !

    • KLG

      I don’t know how sound my advice is and I’m sure YMMV but quitting my midlaw job last summer was SOOOOO freeing that feeling adrift never really happened (and this is from someone who craves structure!). I spent time with friends and family, I visited sick relatives, I went to people’s birthday dinners and didn’t cancel on plans last minute because of work! I read the news, I read books for fun, etc. I went grocery shopping and made dinner for my family. I actually didn’t exercise that much although in retrospect, I wish I had :) And while other people were at work, I did spend time researching new jobs/career options. But honestly, I think my better self-evaluation came after I had taken 4-6 weeks to reconnect with the person I was when I wasn’t wedded to my work/career. I ended up panicking about my finances and taking essentially the same job I’d had before which means I am back to looking for work again. But honestly, I don’t regret any of that “time off.”

      • Homesick

        I’m not in law, so maybe this wouldn’t apply at all to me, but I’m wondering how the process of finding a new job went? I posted a month or two ago about wanting to quit my (accounting) job because I felt like it took all of my time and I had totally lost who I was as a person. I was strongly advised by posters to not quit without another job lined up already. But I felt like that would defeat the point of taking time that I wanted to myself. Obviously I would eventually have to go back to work though, since I don’t have a trust fund. Did you find it hard to explain why you left your last job?

    • new york associate

      First: congratulations! I am really excited for you.

      Second: find one small discipline that will get you through the day. Work out, take a walk, whatever, but commit to one piece of structure. Even just knowing that you have an 11 AM pilates class every day will give you some structure and help you navigate the day. You want to avoid long, empty stretches of days that you’re trying to fill.

      Enjoy.

    • Joan Holloway

      A good coach is a wonderful thing, but if you can’t find a professional coach that you respect, then get a friend to check in with once a week. Set weekly goals with your friend. If you don’t meet the goals from one week to the next, don’t beat yourself up. Just analyze why. That analysis will help you discover who you are again.

      The Authentic Career is a good book. I actually never made it through all the exercises in it because I found a coach I loved, but if I hadn’t, I would have finished the book.

  24. HippieEsq

    Maybe read (or re-read) “The Happiness Project? I think you need to remind yourself about what makes you happy again. While work obviously didn’t make you happy (or you wouldn’t be leaving your job), it did force you to give up so much of what did that there is a big hole in your life now. Take a look at what you used to love doing, and pursue adding to that.

    For the record: While I was great at making money (I have always been the most relatively wealthy of all my friends) I really loved helping people. I work at a non-profit, and while I experience occasional fits of “why don’t we get the same respect as Biglaw people?” I really love my job. The money sucks, but being able to be proud of myself, feel like I am making a positive contribution to humanity and really liking the clients and people I work with is priceless.

  25. DC Jenny

    I know there is a lot of love for Lo & Son’s bags around here (although I’ve had my issues with my bag from them, which I’ve described a couple of times), so I thought I’d let you all know I got the following email from them:

    New Spring/Summer 2012 Collection!

    We are excited to announce that our new Spring/Summer 2012 collection is now available for sale! With more sunshine and travel ahead of us, we will be offering 2 new amazing colors (see pictures below) and a new improved Cambridge bag (for men).

    Mother’s Day Sale

    With Mother’s Day also around the corner, we wanted to offer everybody on our email list a 25% OFF discount code (expires on Monday, May 14th): MOMSRULE2012

    Bags Now Restocked!

    We finally have our sold-out bags back in stock. That being said, demand keeps building, so if you are interested in a bag, don’t wait too long!

  26. Man bags?

    Can anyone recommend a nice, affordable briefcase for Mr. Man Bags? He just got a new job and I’d like to get him one for his birthday in a few weeks. We don’t have much money, but I hate seeing him use the free laptop bag he got for attending a conference a few years ago. lol

  27. TurtleWexler

    I’m having a wimp moment. My husband and I need to get a car and last night we went to check out a used one that a luxury dealership had taken as a trade-in. It was okay but we weren’t sold on it. The salesman then showed us a used car from their brand that was the same price, older with higher mileage but still in great condition. It is a really nice car but just not what we were looking for. Anyway, he got really pushy and was trying hard to pressure us into buying it on the spot, and we finally got away after convincing him we needed to sleep on it and promising to let him know our decision today. We’re not buying this car — even if we really wanted it, he seriously pi**ed us off with some of the things he said — but now I have to call him back and I don’t want to!! I keep putting it off in the hopes that maybe he’ll be busy and I can just leave a message. I need to put on my big girl pants, but…argh. I HATE car shopping.

    • Bad cop

      Ugh. Tell him you aren’t buying the car, and even if you wanted it you’d try to find it from another dealer.

      I actually rather like car shopping and negotiating. Once I realized there’s no reason not to negotiate hard (like maybe when you’re in salary negotiations and are afraid to jeopardize your job), it became pure sport. It helps to have a good partner ~ plan with your husband ahead of time how you want to handle stuff. We liked to play good cop/bad cop (I always played the bad cop), and we also had great fun with the salesmen who addressed all their conversation to my husband instead of me because what could a woman possibly know about cars? Good luck, and try to find the fun in it! :)

    • DC Jenny

      Don’t call the salesman back. Call the dealership and ask to speak to a manager and say that you don’t appreciate the way you were treated. You don’t owe this jerk anything!

    • Susan

      Call him back and tell him that there are two reasons you’re not buying the car:
      (1) it’s not really what you want
      (2) his manner is offputting and he lost himself a customer.

    • TurtleWexler

      I hear what you’re all saying. My hubby is the better negotiator so he was set to be “bad cop,” but it was really hard to even talk to someone who can only say “But it’s a [brand name]!!! What more do you want?? See that badge there? Millions of dollars of R&D go into anything with that symbol. It’s the best brand in the world! I have clients from [enormous business HQ’d near here] in here all the time and they love these cars! They have millions of dollars in their bank accounts! One guy who was here last week is worth $657 million dollars. You could look just like them if you get this car, even though you’re cheap and miserly and not a corporate vice president with millions of dollars in your bank account! What more could you want?” (Well, he didn’t exactly say that last part, but it was completely obvious that it was what he was thinking.) It was obnoxious and inappropriate. He probably ought to hear it, but I kind of just want to wash my hands of them and move on.

    • cfm

      Just dont call then. Not calling obviously means you don’t want the car. Hes not holding it for you right?

      • TCFKAG

        Oh good lord. If you don’t call, sometimes they just keep calling and calling and calling and calling. Call them and tell them to ‘f off and tell them exactly why! And then congratulate yourself for wearing big girl underroos!

        • Anonymous

          I’d call when they are closed and just leave a voicemail, or shoot them an email.

        • Blonde Lawyer

          I think we should design a pair of [name of this website] branded briefs with a big text box that says “my big girl underoos” and a picture of a kangaroo or something on the back. I would totally wear them under my suits on my most stressful days!

      • TurtleWexler

        Nope, not holding it for us. We risked losing the deal of the century by not putting it on hold, ya know. I just left a message with the receptionist that we’re not interested and he doesn’t have to call back. Let’s hope we’re too insignificant for him to ever bother with again. Whew. Thanks for the sympathy/advice/kick in the pants, y’all.

    • Bunkster

      Don’t call him back. Why should you? I just bought a car yesterday, but I dealt with 4 different dealerships over the past 2 weeks. One dealership was particularly sleazy.

      When I told him that I’d decided to go with a different brand, he started to trash that brand. I told him he was being kind of sleazy and hung up. He called back a few minutes later and said “Bunkster, I’m just trying to look out for you.” I then told him that if I didn’t buy that one brand (the one I bought yesterday), I would have gone with yet another brand (not his). And then I told him I had had enough of him and I hung up.

    • Lilly

      I have had a salesperson ignore me and keep pushing even after being told firmly and succintly that I don’t like pressure sales and do not respond well to the tactic. I left and did my business elsewhere. My suggestion, and I certainly enjoyed it, is to have no more contact with the salesman, make your purchase elsewhere, and if you feel like it, go back to that dealership and ask to speak to the General Manager. Tell him that the sale he lost due to an aggressive, overly pushy sales person is parked outside. Tell him that you are not trying to get the salesman in trouble but that clearly some of the staff need training in how to approach and deal with different kinds of customers.

  28. Pest

    Kat’s post at the end of last week for a top from The Limited made me very curious about that store. This past weekend I went in for the first time since highschool with very low expectations, and I was very surprised. I’m in my early thirties and work in a business casual law office, and I walked out with two skirts, two tops and two jackets I plan to wear to work. The quality does not compare to other stores we discuss here, but I paid less than $180 for all six pieces. I wouldn’t buy online from them, because the items were so hit or miss, but if you are willing to take the time to try things on, you might be pleasantly surprised.

    This is one of the jackets I bought. I’m wearing it today and it looks cute on. http://www.thelimited.com/detail/fashion-belted-jacket/2219442

    • Former MidLevel

      I agree. You can find some treasures there for cheap, everyday business casual. (And that is a cute jacket!)

    • Casper Clone

      Thanks for the suggestion! I’m in the same kind of office, and while looking to defrump, haven’t been able to justify many of the pieces suggested here.

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