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Updated: Nov 1, 2018 576 Comments · by

Weekend Open Thread

Weekend Open Thread

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Soladite Torsade Beaded BraceletSomething on your mind? Chat about it here. Brooks Brothers is having a sick clearance sale, with lots of items marked up to 70% off. I always like Brooks Brothers jewelry for a classy vibe to “going out,” and that includes this soladite torsade bracelet (also available in onyx and rose quartz). I think it's way too much for the workday (too big, too noisy, too cumbersome to type in) but for a night out… well, that's another story. It was $128, now marked to $51.20 at the sale. Soladite Torsade Beaded Bracelet (L-2)

Sales of note for 9.30.24

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

About Kat

Kat Griffin is the founder, publisher, and editor-in-chief of Corporette. You can read more about her here.

Comments

  1. Valerie @ City|Life|Eats

    Random coat question – I am loving the Boden Chic Velvet Coat Collection. They, however, do not make it in black or a more muted color (like a very dark eggplant?). Does anyone know of a brand that might make a similar coat in a darker color AND (this is the bigger question) is such a coat appropriate for business professional. After having numerous wool coats (in a variety of price points) disappoint me, I am starting to think of moving towards something like the Boden velvet, or maybe moleskin? Any thoughts? I used to think I really needed a knee-length black wool coat to complete my business professional wardrobe, but am wondering if I should look at other fabrics?

    • CW

      It’s wool, so maybe not what you’re looking for, but I just ordered J Crew’s Double Cloth Metro coat in eggplant (a really rich dark purple). I haven’t received it yet, so can’t comment on quality, but it looks really pretty online!

      • Valerie @ City|Life|Eats

        Thank you! To be honest, I have gone through every major brand of wool coat and they just don’t hold up (even Jcrew – maybe I am just really hard on coats?), so I am starting to think that (1) I need to go higher-end with wool coats, which means spending even more $$ or (2) i need to try other fabrics. I am definitely going to check out the reviews on the jcrew though, as the color is beautiful.

        • non

          I’m curious – how are the wool coats not holding up? Pilling? Seams falling apart?

          • Valerie @ City|Life|Eats

            Pilling. I appear to be very adept to getting things to pill ASAP. The other things that always happens is linings tearing or fraying fast (and i should add I always buy roomy enough so as not to put undue stress on the coat or the lining). Pilling is what made me think to look at other fabrics.

        • Michelle

          if wool isn’t holding up, I think velvet would be less sturdy personally

          • Argie

            Velvet, I think, it much tougher (if impossible) to clean. And I’d think you’d get rub-out on the nap, like you can with corduroy.

        • Pepper

          Have you tried J. Crew’s double cloth fabric? It’s tightly woven and doesn’t pill at all. I have the Lady Day coat and it’s held up very well.

          • Valerie @ City|Life|Eats

            that’s good to know. The last JCrew coat I bought was when I was still living in NYC, so maybe I should try them again (I am trying to remember if said last coat was a double cloth. I suspect it was, because it is not pill, but the lining came apart fast) . Thank you.

        • Nevadan

          I know what you mean. So…. my husband found a company in Nova Scotia that weaves the tweed cloth and then custom makes your coat to your measurements which you send to them. It is stunning and shows no signs of wear. Of course our winter is shorter here, though very cold, so I don’t wear this coat for a long seasonas I might elsewhere. I also don’t have dogs.

        • Cee

          Hmm. I’ve had great luck with the J.Crew wool coats. They usually last me at least three years before they start falling apart, and it’s always the lining that goes first. I almost always have some variation of the shorter wool peacoat and then a longer dress coat.

          I think the velvet would be lovely, but it would get dirty quickly. It wouldn’t be an option for me. I really abuse my coats, plus I have two small children who like to smear their dirty over everything I own.

          • anon

            FYI for those who have issues with their linings coming apart. Most tailors and even a lot of dry cleaners will reline coats like this for about $50-$75. It’s worth it if you otherwise love and want to keep wearing the coat.

        • TK1

          I’ve never had a problem with pilling and my coats are definitely not high end. I had a JC Penney one for a few years and not have Kenneth Cole one. Maybe you need to go lower end instead of higher.

        • anonymous

          I once bought a $300 J. Crew cashmere sweater — a real splurge — that started to pill after two weeks. I returned it. They chose the wrong knit or mill that year.

      • Backgrounder

        I have the exact same JCrew coat/same color which I ordered 3 weeks ago. I love it so far. It’s pretty warm (I live in Chicago) and a nice pop of color without being obtrusive. Much better than your ordinary, plain jane pea coat. The quality is also pretty nice as well. I will say the only thing I don’t like is all of the pockets are sewn shut. I like to stash things in pockets and that was sort of annoying. Enjoy!

        • Argie

          The pockets where sewn shut, but there were still actual pockets? That’s not uncommon to have the pocket stitched shut (like happens on pants and suit jackets). Just cut it open.

          If its just a pocket flap and no pocket…that’s just dissapointing.

          • Backgrounder

            Making a note to check for pockets when I get home…thanks for the suggestion!

        • Kay

          Don’t open them! Lol, I opened the pockets on my JCrew Lady Day coat and now they bend weird and the lining shows when I sit or bend. I keep meaning to stitch them closed but haven’t had the chance.

        • M-C

          Pockets are sewn shut so they don’t get distorted in transit/on display. You’re supposed to open them in order to wear the coat. Likewise, I’ve been seeing a lot of girls recently who haven’t unstitched the pleats in their coat. What a waste :-).
          You can usually tell this sort of thing because not only you have something which should open, but you have a big thing in contrasting thread, easy to snip without damage in short.

    • Barbara Lamar

      Burberry coats are very well made from high-quality fabric. The prices are high, but they look nice for a long time. In the long run, they are probably more cost effective than less expensive coats that do not hold up as well.

    • Athena

      My $0.02 – I always look for a coat with as much cashmere in the wool mix as possible. Cashmere makes the coat lighter (weighs less to carry) than a wool coat but It is warmer than wool. It also feels less scratchy to wear :)
      I would have though velvet would only be suitable for evening wear and would not be warm enough? Dark navy, eggplant, forest green or other dark jewel tones would make a lovely change from black though.

      • Athena

        I’m not sure if cashmere fabric is more or less hardwearing than wool though. Cashmere coats are more expensive, but I look out for them in thrift and consignment stores. (maybe that’s why my coats don’t last as long – that and wearing them every day on public transport!)

    • Searle

      You might try Searle. They are expensive, but they last forever and, if you pick thoughtfully, are stylish but not trendy so you will want to wear it for all the years it lasts. They have a couple stores in Manhattan. Other than that, I know Saks carries them. Maybe others do, too.

    • M-C

      Wool is actually the most durable of fabrics, so this doesn’t make sense. Pilling is caused by a combination of abrasion, and too-short fibers. It may be that you’re buying wool blends, and that the shorter fibers (acrylic?) are the ones that are pilling.
      I’ve had wool coats last well over 15 years.. But good-quality wool, either tightly woven or slightly fulled (ie felted so the structure pretty much disappears, more wind-proof that way). But I buy the best quality I can afford, on sale.
      Could it be that your real problem is something silly like an overly-abrasive favorite handbag? Smooth leather will age gracefully, and not destroy your clothes. An agressively textured bag, or one with lots of hardware, can cause pilling by rubbing in the same spots consistently. I’ve had at least one cordura student backpack that caused pilling and had to be discarded.

  2. a nonny miss

    Is anyone else bothered by a professional’s email signature being in Comic Sans font?

    • anon

      wouldn’t bother me, but maybe not the best judgment if the professional in question is in a buttoned-up kind of industry or role.

    • Matilda

      Yes! Also don’t like backgrounds with clouds, pencils, etc., both because it looks a little unprofessional and because it seems to jam up my email…

      • S

        Agree. And then add one of these clipart-happy nuts heading your marketing department. As if it weren’t bad enough to have three inches of text talking about what my company does and our upcomong events–now they’ve required everyone to include images of reports we’ve released as well as our logos. The irony? Our CEO asked if we could also include a tag line about not printing to protect the environment. Hello–maybe if half a page weren’t filled with our own self-promotional garbage then we wouldn’t be taking up so much space on a page to begin with!

        Sorry. Rant over. Just getting really annoyed with having to waste so much time scrolling through my colleagues’ emails and even my own trying to actual find the messages in so much noise.

        • S

          “actually”

          I guess I’m so fired up, that I can’t even think straight. TGIF. :)

      • phillygirlruns

        agreed. backgrounds drive me insane. On a recent deal I worked with a title agent whose email signature included both large, bold, red Comic Sans (for her name) and – I couldn’t make this up if I tried – animated GIFs of four or five Winnie the Pooh characters (below her address and the disclaimer). Not only was it unprofessional and distracting, it meant that every one of her emails caused Outlook to freeze up for at least a few seconds. Awful.

      • Emily I

        Just curious – what’s your beef with Arial? I don’t use it personally, but I switched from Times New Roman to Franklin Gothic Book after attending a seminar on legal writing. The presenter made what I thought was a good argument in favor of choosing a font with the word “Book” in the title because it’s easier to read. I haven’t caught any flack internally or externally (that I know of) for making the switch, and I’d like to think the judges’ eyes thank me for it, especially when I used it for a 40 page appellate brief.

        BTW – totally agree about the Comic Sans font. Drives me up the wall!

        • Kanye East

          As a personal preference, I like serifs.

          I have a huge soft spot for Helvetica, but not for prose on paper, and Arial’s just Helvetica’s ugly cousin. Secondarily, it’s about readability. (Are you familiar with Typography for Lawyers? I wish I’d written it.) Arial is, IMO, not.

          I also use “book” fonts for anything printed; they’re easier to read. People who use typefaces designed to be read on-screen, like Verdana, for correspondence or submissions to court make me lose my mind.

          I probably shouldn’t care about typography as strongly as I do, but I just can’t help it.

          • Emily I

            There’s a whole book? Awesome! Wonder if I can download it on my Nook : )

          • MissJackson

            ditto re: serifs.

            A partner that I work with uses Ariel in about 16 pt font in all of his emails. It drives me batty.

          • Research, Not Law

            Being raised by a graphic designer, I’m also a snob about printed vs on-screen typefaces.

            And don’t get me started on double-spacing new sentences on non-monospace fonts.

          • North Shore

            I like the book Typography for Lawyers, but have not been able to get away with any of it in my practice. My office insists on using the traditional way of formatting briefs and letters, and the few times I tried something different, I was told to change it back. Too bad.

          • Hel-lo

            There’s a great documentary that I got from Netflix called “Helvetica.”

          • Consulting

            This email thread has me more jacked up than anything else I’ve seen on here in a while :)

          • Barbara Lamar

            Thanks for mentioning Typography for Lawyers. I attended a CLE class last year on writing persuasive documents. One of the items discussed was how to format a document to make it more readable. I have used the ideas I got from that seminar in writing letters, briefs, even blog entries.

            Matthew Butterick has excerpts from his Typography book (maybe the whole book) on his website http://www.typographyforlawyers.com/?page_id=2806.

            Looks quite interesting.

          • Kay

            Thanks for the tip, ordered the book. I’m really interested in this stuff but don’t know much about it, I look forward to learning more!

          • southanon

            After reading your comment Friday, I saw Helvetica playing cards in a magazine (maybe Real Simple).

      • Equity's Darling

        I’m not a fan of Arial, but it’s my firm’s set font (as in, all documents that leave are in that font, unless otherwise required). They’re very pro-consistency, which I can appreciate.

        So, if you ever receive anything from my firm, it will be in Arial, but it’s not because the lawyer wanted it to be so, but because the firm does. That may be a possible explanation for many of those Arial pleadings.

        Also, here’s an entertaining quiz:
        http://www.pentagram.com/what-type-are-you/

        • Kanye East

          if you like that, you’ll love these:

          cheeseorfont [dot] mogrify [dot] org

          www [dot] ironicsans [dot] com / helvarialquiz

          • Emily I

            Sorry – I’m Marina Script. Not sure what that “really” says about me!

          • Jen

            Perpetua Titling Light.

            If you click on how popular your type is, you can see the other types. Kanye, you’re one of 39,849 Couriers.

          • Little Lurker

            Jen, Kanye is a Special Snowflake — she can’t possibly be one of 39,000! ;)

            I’m Van Doesburg and loving it.

          • AD

            I have so much work to finish this afternoon since I’m out of the office next week but I had to take this quiz. Then I decided I had to confirm whether I was really Marina Script after all (I think I misdiagnosed myself and I’m really Perpetua Titling Light).

          • mamabear

            Also, my Microsoft Word doesn’t even have Expanded Antique. I feel very ripped off.

          • mamabear

            hahaha @AD. You are totally right! It would be all, “WTF, dear chap?”

          • Bunkster

            I’m Universal. I have no real idea if that’s true because I didn’t know how to answer the last 2 questions.

          • LinLondon

            I’m Van Doesburg!

            I was hoping for a question on whether or not I found the style of the quiz incredibly annoying. :)

          • Hel-lo

            Cooper Black Italic here.

            I liked this little quiz. It’s as though the guy is Freud… but with no face.

          • Marketeer

            Apparently I’m the only Corbusier Stencil out there? (Well, me and 9,000 other people who like to impose their will upon others with “impeccable good judgment.”)

            PS. I immediately sent this quiz to my boss. I don’t know what that says about me or my work environment. :)

          • Louise

            The more annoying the quiz, the less seriously you should take the results.

          • meara

            Marketeer, you are not the only Corbusier Stencil out there. Though I would much rather be some other font, I’m not a fan! I want to be basic and readable!

          • M-C

            Very interesting. I’m bilfur, or universal if I’m in a subdued mood. But I’ve used courier a lot before, and I very much like the connotations, apparently I hit it right. This is quite helpful in terms of picking a type for a specific effect actually, I’ll be sure to use plastica when I want more attention, or baskerville when I want to pass for more conservative :-).
            Now if all these were more available on the web..

        • Anon

          Ditto on the Arial font for all documents in my firm. I prefer it to Times and I can always identify when its our document.

        • NB

          Dot Matrix? What the?

          I am going to have to spend some time thinking about this…

      • Alana

        Comic Sans font critics might enjoy the following:

        awkwardblackgirl [dot] com/episodes

        Episode 6 at around 5 min 10 sec

    • Herbie

      I almost burst out laughing at this. Yes. I will silently judge you for using comic sans in anything but the following circumstances:

      * Invitations to a five-year old’s birthday party; and
      * Ironically and/or sarcastically.

      That is all.

    • Julie

      Several years ago, an associate for whome we had bent over backwards –rehired her after she resigned fairly abrutply a few years earlier, let her telecommute a couple of days a week to avoid a long drive, etc. — resigned again, this time by e-mail. And she did it in Comic Sans, which to me added insult to injury.

      • Hel-lo

        Ha! If you’re going to resign, why the eff not?

        I think Comic Sans is perfect for a resignation… if you don’t mind everything thinking of you as a crazy moron child.

        • AD

          Actually I agree, especially if you work for nutjobs and just can’t take it anymore. Though it doesn’t come close to the guy that resigned with the help of his marching band friends and posted it on YouTube. (Google it if you haven’t seen it!)

          • Louise

            You were right the first time. Using CS is such an affront to good taste that even inanimate objects will be annoyed.

    • cbackson

      I feel very strongly about the use of serif fonts in the professional context.

      Yes, I know I am hidebound and conservative and all of that, but darn it: if it was good enough for the Roman Empire, it’s good enough for my law firm.

      • Research, Not Law

        “If it was good enough for the Roman Empire, it’s good enough for my law firm.”

        Love this.

    • Research, Not Law

      I had a stint at a pediatric clinic, and their materials to families where done in comic sans. They had informally found that the material was better received. I felt like that was the single appropriate use for comic sans in a professional environment. If learning about your child’s heart defect from a clown is easier, then by all means, do it.

      • another anon

        Huh. I don’t have kids, but I think if I did, and I got correspondence from the doctor in comic sans, I would feel like I was being talked down to, and would not appreciate it one bit.

    • EM

      I am seriously ROFL at this thread.

      Howabout a “professionals” entire emails being written in Comic Sans? My old boss (think Bunkster’s boss) was both a moron and a DB, and his emails were all in Comic Sans. My husband sent me an article about how studies were done about Comic Sans, and it was rated as the most readable……by children!!

    • M-C

      Comic Sans is for retarded 5-year-olds.
      Typography for lawyers is excellent, and should be required reading for everyone (thinking of a particular journalist of my acquaintance..).
      However let me point out that the real option is no HTML. Then they can read your text in their preferred font. (which incidentally may be nice if they have vision problems, and more legal to boot). And you won’t be wasting paper, or clogging up the world’s bandwidth. Just saying..

      • Rose

        It is not acceptable to use the word “retarded” in this way. I’m very surprised that anyone would do that in 2011.

  3. Ellen

    I asked the manageing partner for a $20,000 raise, and he leaned back in his OVERSTUFFED chair, and then he told me that “fruegality” was the KEY, and I would get a $20,000 raise when he was able to get his wife to stop spending MONEY!

    Can you imagine? My lifelihood depending on his wive’s becomeing more FRUEGAL?

    Right now, she spends alot of money on clothes and shoes. He even oferred me some of her shoes instead of cash, but I said I would NOT wear shoes from some one else. Plus he said she has BUNNIEONS! FOOEY ON THAT! I do NOT want BUNNIEONS! FOOEY!

  4. Sarah

    This is the kind of bracelet that I want to love, it looks so pretty sitting there, but looks ridiculous on me.

  5. CC

    So my family is coming to visit in a week. Just found out the hotel they are staying in is on the bed bug registry. Does anyone know how accurate that sight is? some of the recent reviews are just stating that they did not have bed bugs, and all their other reviews are good. Its a marriot. My mom will freak when I tell her which I’m dreading, but I also dont want 1) them to get bed bugs and 2) bring the bed bugs into my house.

    • another anon

      Personally, I would find another hotel if that’s at all possible. You do not want bedbugs, or for your mom to get bedbugs. From what I have heard, they are very difficult to get rid of completely, so even if the recent reviews say that there were no bugs, that’s not a guarantee that there are no bugs in any of the hotel rooms. It may be that those people just got lucky and got a room with no bugs. And since they are so hard to get rid of, I wouldn’t want to risk getting them in my home.

      If they do stay at that hotel, there are certain precautions they can take (I’m sure there’s a website somewhere with tips). At hotels I always check the seams on the sheets and mattress, which I believe is a common place for them to hide, and I never put my suitcase on the bed.

      • CC

        I called the hotel, and they say they have never had bed bugs. Is this them just straight up lying? What can I do with this information? Do they have to tell me if I ask? (I’m guessing no)

      • zora

        i would second find another hotel. it is not impossible to get rid of bed bugs, but it is expensive: can cost upwards of 1500-2500 or more depending on how big your home is. And you could end up with your home infested, as well as your parents’ home. I would personally play it safe. I have only stayed at hotels that have *no* bedbug entries on any of the sites.

    • Jen

      It’s a site where users report infestations. It’s as accurate as Yelp or any travel site.

      Bed bugs are difficult to get rid of but not impossible. Hotels may have bedbugs and not show up on the site if people don’t report them. People may not have enjoyed their visit for another reason and reported that their room had bedbugs.

      This is the most complete set of resources on bed bugs: http://entsoc.org/resources/bed-bug-resources

    • ahm

      I tend to avoid hotels that have reports on that site, because better safe than sorry. That said, if it’s unavoidable that you have to stay in a particular hotel (e.g. business travel) or pretty much all the hotels in a particular city have entries on that website (Vegas comes to mind), I wouldn’t stress out about it too much. Especially if all the recent reviews are saying no bed bugs and there aren’t that many reviews total, its probably not something to worry about. Big hotels have hundreds or thousands of people passing through them every day, so if there are only a handful of reports in the last year, that evidence is sketchy at best. As you said, lots of people write reviews just to say “no bugs” and people also mistakenly believe they were bitten by bed bugs when in fact it was mosquitos or allergies or something else.

      • Scared of Bed Bugs

        I thought this article really only covered one side of things. Sure, they may not be all that contagious, but once you have them they are supposed to be truly, incredibly awful (read the stories). I’m terrified of getting bed bugs to the point where I won’t stay in a hotel with any reports. I also immediately check my room for signs of bedbugs and won’t stay if there is any sign of them. Even with no signs of the bugs, I leave my suitcase closed all the time, shake out my pajamas before packing them away, and store my suitcase in the bathtub in the hotel room at night (it would be hard for bed bugs to live in a bathroom and they are most active at dawn). Even after all that, I leave my suitcase in the trunk of my car after getting home for at least a month (so hot/cold temperatures will hopefully kill them). After removing the suitcase from the trunk I still take some precautions by: (1) unpacking my suitcase in our white bathtub (so I can easily see any insects crawling around); (2) putting most of the dirty clothes directly in the washing machine; (3) putting anything that can’t go into the washing machine in plastic garbage bags (to keep any potential bed bug eggs from contaminating my normal laundry); (4) dealing with things that can’t be washed by either storing the item in the closed-up suitcase (travel hairdryer), freezing them (shoes), or carefully inspecting the items for issues before putting them away (lotions, etc). It sounds like a lot of work, but its really not that much hassle if you consider the pain I might be saving myself to get rid of a bed bug infestation.

          • Scared of Bed Bugs

            I probably do. But, imagine having welts all over your body from bites, going to sleep every night knowing that something was going to eat you, washing or dry cleaning everything you own multiple times, getting rid of a ton of your furniture, paying an exterminator thousands of dollars, and still not being rid of the little buggers. (It has happened to a lot of people.) To me, avoiding the bugs is worth the hour or so that these extra steps take.

          • conbrio

            Insane is how you feel when you’re covered with itchy, weepy, disgusting bedbug bites – or, even better, scabs from constantly scratching. I have, unfortunately been there, and it’s horrible. I came into contact with some bedbugs almost 3 years ago, and I still have scars on my legs from scratching the bites. Blech.

      • another anon

        Huh? All I said was that they can be difficult to get rid of if you get them, which the cited article does not seem to dispute. And in my understanding, getting rid of them can involve quite a bit of hassle and expense. Not to mention the psychological effects that many people would experience if their living space was infested with bugs. (I had a brief experience in an apartment once with insects which were not nearly as persistent as bed bugs, and it was truly nerve-wracking. )

        “Scared of Bed Bugs” does seem to be taking things to the extreme, but many people really do have a huge phobia of bugs. And by asking the question here, the OP does seem to be at least a little concerned about it. My original point to the OP was simply why bother with that hotel if there are others available? Assuming that there is not some big event going on in her town at the time her parents will be there, finding another hotel should be totally doable, and I think it would be worth doing for the peace of mind alone.

      • M-C

        Actually I’ve had bedbugs twice (as evidenced by single specimen, along with later symptoms), and ‘visual inspection’ is bunk. You have to have so many of them that you are going to be devoured the instant you set foot in there, while most of them are very discreet. Very discreet indeed. You aren’t going to be taking the mattress apart. This is a bit like a visual inspection to detect HIV in a prospective partner. Take precautions in all cases. My suitcases go straight into the bathtub..

    • BigLaw Refugee

      If it’s easy to change hotels, you could do that, but I think your best bet is to:

      a) don’t tell them this particular hotel has bed bug reports (b/c as others have said, they could be false reports, and any other hotel could just as easily have them), but tell them you have heard that bed bugs can be an issue generally so you want to help them take precautions
      b) when they check in, before they unpack, look around the headboard, remove the sheet and inspect the seams for little black dots (feces) or dead bugs
      c) tell them to keep their clothes in their suitcase, on a rack above the floor, and/or hanging up; do NOT unpack into the dressers or put the suitcase on the floor or upholstered furniture.

      Bedbugs are not good climbers, and the main way they reportedly travel is by getting into luggage. The actual bites of the bugs are not a big deal for most people (some do not react at all, and for many it’s just like a mosquito bite – only a few have really bad reactions), and the bugs don’t really travel on people themselves – they come out in the middle of the night, bite, then go back to their hidey holes. So if they take precautions with their belongings to make them difficult hidey holes to reach, then they will probably be fine.

    • anon

      my vote is no. unless you work in fashion or advertising or media or are otherwise in the business of being creative. but then i would do heels, not boots.

      • Matilda

        Oh yeah, that would have been helpful information. :-) I’m an attorney in a middle-sized southern firm — everyone in my department wears suits, but I’m the only woman so no senior person to look to as a model. The men go with varying levels of fashion, from white shirt and conservative tie to colorful (but tasteful) shirts with tie/cufflink/sock matching.

    • Anon

      I worked in New Orelans for a while and I would definitely have worn those tights with, say, a black skirt and a button-down and/or cardi. I think we worry way too much about fitting into some cookie cutter of conservative dressing. Plus, a little individuality, like fun tights, is similar to a man in a funky tie.

    • eaopm3

      I wear something similar to work at my small, midwestern, all-guys-except-for-me firm. I wouldn’t wear them to court though.

      • Julie

        Agree. Yesterday for negotations I wanted to dress down a black skirt suit, wore it with a charcoal gray v-neck sweater, chunkier jewelry than I’d wear for court or another hearing, patterned tights (Vera Wang for Kohls, my new favorite) and heeled Mary Janes.

        • eaopm3

          I will have to check those out the next time I go to Kohl’s! I have been buying J Crew and BR textured tights when the go on sale or at the outlet stores, but Kohl’s would be much more convenient.

    • bb

      have some textured tights I like to wear to work but they’re not very out there (a diamond pattern that looks solid from a far, a few stripes, etc.). I did see someone wearing something more obvious (like the diamonds or lace patterns on that website), which I, IMHO, thought looked a bit out of place.

      • Homestar

        I like textured tights that look solid from afar. They are appropriate for my conservative workplace, except I can only wear most of mine with knee-length or longer skirts because the otherwise the texture becomes too obvious on my knees when I am sitting down. (Noticed this when a senior member of our team kept staring at my legs during a meeting and I looked down and saw that my conservative textured tights had become very fishnet looking when stretched over my knees in a seated position. This guy was not the type to stare, but fishnet is very out of place for our office and it really did look weird.)

      • MG

        I work in a slightly less conservative setting, and I still feel like they’d be too much for work. As bb said, it’s a different story with something that looks solid from afar. If these were layered over other tights or ose (maybe a sheer black?), then I think it would be more work appropriate.

    • Hel-lo

      If your situation is formal enough to require a skirt suit, then I would advise against these tights.

      But they would look great with a sweater or something on top, black knee-length skirt, and black heels or boots (like the picture). But recognize that it’s a more casual look than a suit.

      I guess what I’m saying is: I think these tights would dress an outfit down.

    • Kelly

      I’ve worn ones similar to the black ribbed version with a skirt suit, the situation (meeting with client, twp attorney & engineer) did not require a skirt suit though.

    • Divaliscious11

      Cute…too bad they arebtoonshort! I think they’d look out of place with a suit, but it’s a fun look in a business casual office, especially when adding texture to a monochrome outfit with boots….

  7. SF Bay Associate

    Well, I guess I’ve just had one of those special moments in an attorney’s career. I just got fooled and manipulated by opposing counsel. They had said X, which seemed perfectly reasonable, and I prefer to be reasonable with opposing counsel as a default. We’ve had a reasonable working relationship even as we oppose each other, or so I thought. It turns out that X was just a set up for a motion that they just dropped on me. Bloody hell. Now the motion practice cycle begins. I should be able to beat his motion, but it’s a big PITA and I feel like such an idiot for not seeing this coming.

    Can anyone commiserate with me? I hate feeling so stupid.

    • Matilda

      If you weren’t in SF, I’d say we must be up against the same opponent. Good luck!

    • RR

      Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. If it makes you feel better, judges generally do get what is really going on. But, this is definitely one of the few things I hate about the practice of law.

    • MissJackson

      I can commiserate. This makes me furious.

      I hate that being reasonable can make you vulerable to this kind of nonsense. It gives everyone the wrong incentive (to be completely paranoid and unreasonable all the time).

    • Miriam

      I had a negotiation project for law school this past week. My opponent was trying to blame me for an oversight and I was pissed. Turns out he was just trying to irritate me…for fun!

    • AEK

      Opposing counsel threw me under the bus in front of the judge yesterday, after we had a reasonable & amicable discussion in the hall just prior.

      When I stop being surprised by dirty tricks, though, I will have lost faith entirely. So I’d prefer to feel stupid occasionally than be 100% cynical.

      • Cee

        This.

        You will learn to be more careful, but after twelve years of practice, it still happens to me. I just refuse to have that the mindset that everyone in this profession is out to get me. Call me a ninny, but I still like to hang my hat on the integrity of the practice of law.

        Having practiced and having clerked, have faith that judges see through this crap. They don’t like this crap. Lay it out without flinging more crap back and you will prevail.

        Good luck!

    • Blonde Lawyer

      I had someone swear they couldn’t negotiate a medicare lien. My client settled for more b/c of it. In later correspondence, emails attached to the chain and language in the release made it clear the lien had been negotiated, before the settlement, and the other lawyer was just blatantly lying to my face.

      He claimed that his partner had negotiated the lien and he had no idea since they had previously told him no negotiation was possible. I don’t believe it.

      • a lawyer

        Medicare does not really negotiate; they just pay a pro rata share of attorney fees and expenses. It would take a major miracle, on the order of Mississippi going blue (sorry, elections here this week), for Medicare to “negotiate” a lien. However, their regs call for them to pay pro rata share of fees and expenses.

    • found a peanut

      I had a similar situation with a negotiation class in college. I am laid back about academics in general and I thought my negotiation adversary was as well. We were to be graded on the outcome so I approached it with a “Let’s be collaborative and do this quickly and get to a mutually beneficial result” attitude. She did not. She approached it with a “Let’s take advantage of Peanut’s laid-back attitude so that I can get the best outcome/grade possible and make her look like an idiot.” Which is exactly what happened and I walked away from the process thinking that this girl took negotiation class, and probably life in general, WAY too seriously and was also a bad person.

      • Lydia

        Same thing happened to me in Law School! You are not the only one. Years later, it still irks me a bit.

        • MissJackson

          I am still really pissed off about my negotiations class from law school, and that was now eons ago for me, too.

      • Kanye East

        I hate this. It’s also completely not my style.

        I think you’ll find, depending on the size of the bar where you practice, that eventually you’ll run into people again and again. Extreme ruthlessness and lying in negotiations will follow those people around. It’s not something to build a practice on.

        If it’s any consolation. //shrug//

      • another anon

        Same thing here, except we weren’t graded on it, or if we were it was a very small part of our grade. We did a mock negotiation, with two students on each side. We were each given a set of facts (different facts for each side of the negotiation), and I assumed that the people on the other side would negotiate in good faith. Nope! One of them blatantly lied, which I found out because we got to see the facts that the other side started with after the fact. I was so annoyed, and to this day I think less of the person who lied.

        • Em

          One thing my law school negotiation class emphasized that was really helpful was that law is a small world and that if you do something like that to people, even in class, they will remember it and will judge you for it, and it will come around to bite you later. Sure enough, someone blatantly lied to me in a negotiation, and I judged and remembered (though it hasn’t come around to bite him yet, at least not from me).

        • cbackson

          This happened to me too! And the other person was downgraded for it, for the reason Em gives – law is a repeat-player game.

    • JJ

      If you were in my state and not San Francisco, I’d think we had the same opposing counsel. Here’s what gets me through it: as attorneys, our reputation is our calling card. Life is too short to be unreasonable and skeptical at all times instead of attempting to be reasonable. Your opposing counsel’s reputation will come back to haunt him/her and as long as you conduct yourself well, you can sleep well at night.

      At least, this is what I tell myself every time my nemesis opposing counsel makes my blood boil.

  8. Ms. Basil E. Frankweiler

    First, thanks to people who responded to my question earlier. However, due to their responses, I now have another question. My interview with the AG’s office is this coming Tuesday (just found out about it yesterday evening and had no control over the interview date). One suggestion was to determine if I know anyone who knows someone in the office, but how do I do that (a) at all and (b) on such short notice?

    Thanks again ladies.

    • KYC

      ask people who are practicing in the same area as the division of the AG’s office you are interviewing. chances are they will know people because the people in the AG’s office will have been opposing counsel or they knew them before they went to the AG’s office.

      for example, when i was applying for a prosecutor’s position in a certain county and didn’t know anyone in the office, i asked prosecutors in nearby counties, criminal defense attorneys i knew, and a judge who used to be a DA for contacts in that office. i ended up with 2 contacts and was able to speak with them on short notice by phone.

    • KK

      Think of your professional contacts who have been practicing for a while (judge if you clerked, adjunct professor whose class you did well in, someone from an office you summered at). Once you identify some contacts, I would just call or email and ask them. Say you have an interview at OAG and you want to know if they know anyone there who you could possibly talk to about the position/office or if they have any suggestions in general. If they do and they’re willing to make a call on your behalf, they’ll be able to read between the lines. People are way more receptive to this than you might think if you haven’t done it before. As an example, I was job searching during my state clerkship. Every time I applied to a firm or gov office, I would print out a list of everyone who worked there and hand it to my judge to see if he knew anyone. He was willing to make a call, he just wasn’t proactive enough to remember everyone he knew and where they currently worked. I got several interviews this way, and I ultimately landed a position at a large municipality’s law office (sort of a more local OAG). It turned out that my judge knew the attorney in charge of the office, which he didn’t recall until I showed him the list.

      I think linkedin is a good place to start but it’s not sufficient because (1) older more established attorneys aren’t always on it, (2) you don’t necessarily need someone who has worked there (though that would be nice), maybe they just have a longtime good friend in that office who respects their opinion.

      If all else fails, look at your contemporaries who may be currently working there or previously worked/interned there and left on good terms. Their opinion won’t carry as much weight, but it’s something.

  9. UnderAchieving Chick

    Etiquette question, help please!
    I do doc review and have for a few years, since I graduated law school and passed the bar. I’m not dissatisfied with it, since it gives me enough time off to pursue other interests.

    However, a relative of mine contacted someone in his network to arrange an informational interview with a partner in a Big Firm in my city. I did not ask for this, I am not interested in the practice area, and the email he forwarded me made it seem that this partner was begrudgingly granting this favor, not to him, but to my relative’s contact. My relative and the partner have never met. In the email, the partner said she is extremely busy but she will see if she has room in her schedule to meet with me.

    My question is – do I HAVE to contact this partner for an informational interview? Is she expecting to hear from me? I cannot emphasize enough that I am not at all interested, and the tone of her email to my relative’s contact was a bit off-putting.

    What do I tell my relative when I see him at Thanksgiving? I can’t help but feel he was interfering a bit, but I suppose his heart was in the right place.
    My concern is that this partner will somehow let someone know I never followed through and it will create a problem for someone else (not me because I don’t really care).

    I got this email from him this week and it was totally out of nowhere and I haven’t got a clue how to respond.

    Thanks ladies!

    • Valerie @ City|Life|Eats

      If you truly do not want to pursue this (and there is nothing else at the firm you might be interested in) why not send her a polite email following up to the partner and saying thank you, but you understand she is busy, and why not wait until the beginning of next year to schedule something. That gives her the opportunity to gracefully disappear and remove a “problem” off her list.

      Assuming there is something at this firm that might interest you (even if totally unrelated to her area), you could also use a similar tactic to reframe the situation – ie something along the lines of “i am interested in xyz (or in the firm generally), but I completely understand this is a bad time of year for everyone, so why don’t I get in touch with you sometime in mid-January and perhaps we can schedule a time to speak if your availability allows it.”

      I have found that acknowledging people’s busy-ness can go a long way in them appreciating any interaction with you.

      As for the relative, I would thank him but firmly ask that he runs any such favors/reaching out on your behalf by you first.

      • Valerie @ City|Life|Eats

        PS – FWIW, I would probably got with option 2 of my advice. You never know what could come of the conversation – i.e. perhaps leads to a job lead for a position that still allows you to pursue other interests. I realize the odds of that are low, but could still be worth exploring.

        • UnderAchieving Chick

          Thanks Valerie. I would have followed your advice had the partner or the contact had emailed me directly, but what I got was an email chain forwarded to me. I think pursuing this at all is a waste of everyone’s time.

      • Supra

        I just wrote the *longest* response and I got that MFing error message. (Lesson to C&P before submitting everytime!)

        I would email the relative’s contact and say something like:

        “Thanks for the suggestion and for contacting Ms. X on my behalf. However, at this time, I am not actively looking for a position in Y area. I will leave it to your discretion as to whether you want to contact Ms. X and let her know that I won’t be contacting her. ”

        I would copy relative on the email and depending on how close you are with relative, let him know in advance that you are going to do this.

        Unless everyone else thinks this is horribly rude, this is what I would do. It also assumes you feel comfortable emailing your relative’s contact directly. It doesn’t seem like this meeting is benefical for ANYONE.

        • UnderAchieving Chick

          Actually, I am going to send that email directly to my my nosy relative and HE can let his contact know. Thank you so much for the words when I pretty much want to tell him to stuff his ideas of what I should be doing with my life. I was really flabbergasted when I got his email and I hope such a firmly- worded message makes it clear to him.

        • Hel-lo

          I agree. If you aren’t interested in that area, then your relative needs to know that, from you, in a way that he can’t mistake the message.

          I wouldn’t wait until Thanksgiving either. “Uncle Joe, I just wanted to let you know that I really appreciate your concern for my career. But I’m really interested in IP law, not criminal defense. I’m a little too intimated by jail visits and all that. See you at Grandma’s!”

          • Sara

            he’s just trying to help so suggest being nice about it.. most people don’t view document review as a desired or long term path and want any route out of it.

    • Lynnet

      How do you do doc review for a living? This isn’t meant to be snarky, I just graduated and it seems like something I would like to do, but our career services was very geared toward “spend your 2L summer in a firm and then get an offer” so I have no idea how I would go about it pursuing doc review jobs.

      • UnderAchieving Chick

        I am registered with legal staffing agencies that put me on projects. You can find the agencies on Craigslist, or google Posse List for upcoming projects.

        • Lynnet

          I haven’t seen any agencies on craigslist (maybe my city isn’t big enough?) But I was planning on signing up with Robert Half Legal and The Advocates as soon as I get sworn in. I’ll check out Posse List as well. I guess I was more just wondering how viable those were as a long term plan, rather than as a temporary thing.

          • UnderAchieving Chick

            I am in a big city with a high volume of doc review so it’s been steady work. Except for a blip in 2009, I’ve been employed continuously enough since 2006 at only with a month off here and there. Big Firms seem to recycle temps so I’m usually working at one of only a few places.

        • Blonde Lawyer

          Just curious b/c a friend is looking for something similar. Are you able to get any benefits with doc review through staffing agencies? She just needs to find health insurance and is thinking of taking a part time petco/starbucks job to get it if she has to.

          • Sydney Bristow

            It depends on the agency, and the health insurance coverage can range wildly. The agency I’m currently working for offers health insurance for somewhere in the $200/month range after working for 30 days, but it has a $10,000 lifetime limit, limited coverage, and a $500 deductible. My previous project agency had better coverage, but you had to work there for 2 consecutive months and I think it was closer to $600/month. I think you lost eligibility for it if you didn’t work for the agency for over 2 consecutive weeks.

            I’m still navigating this myself, but I’m currently working on my third project and with my third (of six) agencies. You can find agency names by looking at The Posse List listings.

        • Barbara Lamar

          Working on projects for different law firms sounds like a great way to learn a lot in a short time, while also maintaining one’s dignity and health. I left the BF world 22 years ago to hang my own shingle and did something like that, except from a different angle. I’m good at sales, so I’d go out and find an interesting case, then pick a lawyer I thought I could learn from and ask him or her to be co-counsel. I look back fondly on those days …

  10. Question for mothers of preschoolers

    Sorry for the threadjack on a nonfashion issue, but I really need advice. This week, I walked into my 3 y/o’s school to pick him up (usually they bring out to car in a kiss & ride system due to lack of parking, however, I didn’t want to wait) and found kids sitting quietly on the floor , shoulder to shoulder, facing the door, with their backpacks on and the lights OUT. Is this normal? It seemed odd.. At least one teacher was in there with them, but it was so strange bc the kids were so quiet and it was dark. They are in this room probably around 10-15 min .

    When asked about their procedures, the principal emailed that the
    kids “are expected to remain quietly on the carpet until their ride arrives.
    This enables us to gather the children quickly for their parents and facilitates a smooth and speedy process.” She failed to mention that they are sent to a time out chair for talking. DS told us about that; unsurprisingly it turns out that he hates this process.

    Meting out punishment instead of giving the kids a productive
    alternative to what amounts to be a prolonged group time out is disturbing. The principal’s only suggestion was that I get there early for pick-up! I don’t see why they can’t have the lights on and be able to read a book or why the teachers can’t tell a story or two. The 2 teachers in the room only talk to each other or reprimand the students who don’t stay quiet.

    The forced silence of a roomful of wide-awake kids sitting shoulder to shoulder in a semi-dark room was disturbing and I want to pull DS out asap. However we would prefer for him to have the stability of finishing the year in an otherwise benign environment, so will try to work something out with the school. But they have been fairly rigid so far.

    Irate doesn’t even begin to describe how I feel. I called the county
    division of social services (we are in VA), but since it is a religious school, their programs aren’t regulated. The principal isn’t responding to our email request that the lights be consistently left on and that children be able to move around a bit while waiting. (The lights are sometimes on depending on the teacher). Thinking about threatening to go to the local media. Any thoughts on how to tackle this and before this upcoming Monday? I can’t stomach the thought of picking him up on Monday in the same conditions.

    Also, we are new to the school and only know one other set of parents, and don’t have the means to contact other parents yet (emailed for a copy of the parent directory). Thanks for any helpful advice. I am at a loss as to how to deal with this and am typically not a confrontational person. But irate and upset only begins to describe how I feel.

    • DC Association

      I suggest you contact the PTA about this. The PTA knows a lot of of the inside scoop on stuff that goes on, and can probably shed some light into history and all that. Maybe they’ve already contacted the school about this or have some suggestions on the best way to handle it. (I say this as a PTA president at a DCPS, unfortunately, I know a lot of the dirt that goes on inside the building.)

      Another option…do you ever visit DC Urban Moms (www.dcurbanmom.com)? they have bulletin boards – you could post something on there about this and see if anyone responds; you could also search the board for other posts about the school and see what things have been said.

      I also think it is very weird practice and I wouldn’t be happy about it either.

      good luck!

      • Question for mothers of preschoolers

        Thanks, I have briefly checked out DCUM and haven’t seen this practice perhaps bc these moms wouldn’t tolerate it! We’re at the far end of NOVA so that’s probably why this is tolerated (and suspect it is also bc most parents drive up and do not witness this). They are just forming a PTA and so far they (the school) has drummed up a big wish list, so it seems like more of a fundraising group. Will look into it further. Thanks for the suggestion.

        • Novamama

          I’m a NoVa mom of a preschooler and I have NEVER heard of this practice. I’d be angry, too. I’d definitely push on talking to the principal and see if you can get more information from other parents. Expecting preschoolers to sit silently in the dark for 10-15 minutes is nuts. My preschooler can barely stay silent when she’s asleep!

        • Anonymous

          Oh, honey. Just wait until your child starts school. It is just one long period of worksheets with no recess starting in kindergarten. I am not kidding.

    • grain of salt

      First- I don’t have children so right off the bat, that might disqualify me from this discussion. But I just wanted to chime in that this… doesn’t seem that bad to me. I remember something similar when I was in kindergarden (which is older) but minus the lights off I guess. If everything else in the school seems fine, this does not seem that big of a deal to me. The darkness thing is weird though.

      • Valerie @ City|Life|Eats

        no kids either, so maybe i should not answer, but i remember a similar set up in pre-school and/or kindergarten. (likely both) The only difference being that lights were on and we were allowed to read or play quietly. The main rule was that we had to be ready for parental pick-up AND whatever we were doing could be packed up (or put away) right away when parent arrived. My mom had a small book designated for that purpose in the outer pocket of my schoolbag, which, once I finished, she would rotate with others. That said, the no lights and time out chair element sounds upsetting so I can understand why you are upset.

      • blech

        Ditto – unless there are signs of other questionable behavior, it seems odd but harmless. And not a reason to alert the media. Perhaps its a teaching tool to help the toddlers learn a little self-control – as in there are time to sit and be quiet and there are times to be able to play – as well as a way to facilitate student pick-up. And yes, I can very much imagine a 3 year old doesn’t really like it. But they also don’t like a lot of things, and it’s the job of the adult to teach that sometimes they have to do things they don’t like, like sit and be quiet at certain times.

        And after spending a day in a room of 3 year olds, maybe the teachers are hoping the dark just makes them fall asleep

      • cbackson

        My childhood school had a practice like this, with the lights off. It was kind of like end-of-the-day quiet time. I think we may have actually laid down on mats for it.

        It was Montessori, though, so there was no time out for talking, just a reminder that it was quiet time. I can’t imagine considering this worthy of media attention or social services intervention.

        • KK

          Agreed. It seems a little unusual, at best. I also remember having “quiet time” at the end of the day around pickup when I was in school, and they do something similar at my niece’s school (I’ve picked her up from time to time), though the lights are on. I don’t think contacting social services or the media would be productive. It’s not much of a story for the media and, at the risk of being offensive, social services has real problems to investigate- physical abuse, neglect (i.e. leaving small children unattended), sex abuse, etc. I don’t think supervised quiet time, even in the dark, is going to register on their scale.

          You did the right thing by taking it to the principal first, and I agree with others that the PTA would be a good place to go next. Maybe you can work out something where they will leave the lights on and let the kids read a book or engage in other quiet, easy to put away activities.

    • Usually Lurks

      I don’t have kids, but what you’re describing was normal in my public school 25 years ago. We were ALL forced to sit quietly on the floor in a semi-dark room because of a few rowdy kids. Sometimes in the middle of the day, teachers would turn off the lights and we had to put our heads down on our desks. I guess I never thought of that way, but it really was a group time-out.
      I remember this procedure up until 3rd grade; after that the rowdy kids were sent to the principal’s office.

    • momentsofabsurdity

      How odd. I’m not a parent but I was a camp counselor for pre-school age kids for a summer (and elementary age kids for several more summers). Pickup time can be chaotic and sometimes stressful for the kids (especially the ones who aren’t picked up right away) so giving them an “activity” to focus on can help.

      However, we usually facilitated this by having quiet storytime at pickup so that kids could be pulled out by an aide while the stories were being read. (You could, though, get put in time out for being disruptive, just like any other time of the day.) I’m not sure what’s accomplished by leaving the kids sitting silently in the dark, and why that time couldn’t be used more productively.

    • Anon

      I don’t have any advice (or children) but in my opinion, that is totally unacceptable. Making a 3 year old sit in the dark, for no other reason than the convenience of the teacher, who wasn’t doing anything anyway, is absurd and way to close to punishment. Think about your reaction if you walked into your neighbor’s house and saw his or her child being forced to sit on the floor, in the dark, without talking. Get DS out of there asap. He’s three, continutity isn’t that important this early in his academic career.

    • Lucy

      Schedule a meeting with the principal, and in the meantime, search for other options. NAEYC-accredited preschools are (IME) often very good.

      Tell the principle that you find the practice inappropriate, and that you request that it be stopped immediately. Suggest specific, constructive changes; perhaps the kids could listen to music, color, hear a story, etc.

      Listen to her responses, then act accordingly.

    • PT lawyer

      I have a preschooler and I think this is very weird.

      My son’s school lets them play quietly (lights on), with coat on but backpack nearby, during pickup time. I wouldn’t mind the lining-up thing… but honestly how difficult is it to say “Hey Johnny, Mom’s here, time to go?” The lights off part is very very odd, though.

      I’d talk to some of the other parents first, and not contact local media. I get the anger and frustration, but local media is only going to produce gossip and drama. Other parents, the PTA, the child’s teacher.. . that’s the way I’d go.

      I might also start looking for another school, if this issue does not resolve itself to your satisfaction. Maybe its not a good match for your family?

      • Research, Not Law

        This exactly.

        I have a preschooler and find this very odd. I certainly did nothing like this in my personal experiences of preschool or elementary school. I’m all for teaching self-regulation, but sitting in the dark and not talking until parents pick-up? Not abusive, but weird and unnecessary. My child also plays until I come. She comes over, we get shoes and coat on, I grab her backpack from the neatly-organized cubbies, and we’re off. Takes two minutes and isn’t a burden for the teacher or other students.

        Agree that you should check with other parents and start looking at other schools. I would be very bothered by the fact that they aren’t communicating with you about it, even if they have no intention of changing the policy. That bothers me much more than the policy itself. I need to have open communication and trust with anyone who cares for my children.

          • KK

            I co-sign this also– I think the way the school has been dismissive of your concerns is more troubling than their pick up procedure.

        • Question for mothers of preschoolers

          Exactly. I read the handbook and there is nothing about this policy. Full and open disclosure initiated by the school would have been a better route – and then we wouldn’t have enrolled in the first place. Thanks for your support ladies. I’m quite overwhelmed by the responses.

    • huh

      At the risk of getting flamed – I think you are totally overreacting here. Calm down, chill out and figure out what about this bothers you so much? That they weren’t using the time “productively”? What does productive mean you to you – having your son constantly stimulated? Was it the fact that they were sitting quietly? Was it the fact that your son said he didn’t like it?

      I’m honestly baffled at the jump from seeing your son sitting quietly to being upset, irate and ready to alert the media.

      • Ballerina Girl

        Yeah, I agree. My sister teaches kindergarten and while I don’t think she does this exactly, it’s very common for them to have the kids stand in a line with their coats and backpacks on while they wait for their parents.

        I think that it’s a bit over-the-top to expect your child to be engaged in “productive” activity at every moment of school–and sometimes learning to be quiet and well-behaved is a good exercise in and of itself. Teachers have it very tough and kids can go nutso when it’s time to go home.

        • zora

          folks, 3 years old is very different from kindergarten. expecting 3 year olds to sit perfectly still and quiet is extremely difficult for them, whereas just a couple of years later, at 5 or 6, it is something they are ready to handle for short periods of time.

          And then, punishing them for just speaking to their friends during this 15 minutes by giving them time out, just puts this over the top.

          My mom is an elementary school teacher (so, no preschool age, 6 and up) and her old principal had a rule that all students had to be silent whenever classes were moving through the hallways, and she yelled at and punished a few students just for whispering, or quietly talking to another student while they were walking through the halls. My mom and other teachers organized and reported the principal to get her to stop this policy, since they felt it was developmentally inappropriate even for that age. That if they can stay quiet and still move in line, they should be able to speak to each other. This isn’t freaking Victorian England and we’re not at Lowood School. It’s the 21st century.

    • Pepper

      I don’t see what’s wrong with teaching children to wait patiently and quietly for a few minutes. The teachers work their butts off all day, and it’s a big process to wrangle kids into getting ready to go home. It’s much more orderly to get them all ready at once and have them wait quietly.

      Calling social services because children are being asked to wait quietly strikes me as completely unreasonable. You’re overreacting.

      • Novamama

        Just FYI, most preschools around here are 3 hours long or less. And to me there’s a big difference between having the kids wait patiently and quietly at pickup (this is the way they do it at DD’s school) and lining them up with the lights out and telling them they cannot make noise for an extended period of time.

      • Anonnc

        10-15 minutes is not a few minutes for a 3 year old. There’s also a big difference between asking a kid to sit quietly while listening to a story, drawing, etc. (heck- even watching TV) and asking a kid to sit shoulder to shoulder with backpack on doing nothing (and getting punished for talking).

      • Question for mothers of preschoolers

        Social Services is relevant in this case for potential fire code violations for having too many kids in a room of that size as well as for exceeding the adult: child ratio.

        • EAG1

          You are not over reacting. If it doesn’t feel right for you, then it is not right and you should remove DS as soon as possible. And call Social Services and any other state reg. authority.

    • RR

      I have preschool aged twins. We go in to pick them up, and it’s chaos with them running around playing and having to wrangle them into coats, etc. I’m not sure I would mind having them ready to go. That said, I would be bothered by the sitting in the dark not allowed to talk. You can be ready to go and still playing quietly. I would address it with the school, and pull him out if it’s not addressed.

      That said, I do think you are totally overreacting. The kids aren’t being hurt. Calling social services and alerting the media is huge overkill, particularly given that you aren’t concerned enough to immediately pull him out. I think maybe a good guideline is, if you continue to drop your kid off every day, you shouldn’t be calling the media. That’s the school you picked. Now, you know something to look for in looking for a new school.

      • Question for mothers of preschoolers

        As I originally mentioned, witnessing approx 30-40 3 y/os forced to sit side by side in the dark, in absolute quiet while being threatened with individual time out for talking bothered me.

        I’m not advocating constant stimulation as I stated above: “I don’t see why they can’t have the lights on and be able to read a book or why the teachers can’t tell a story or two. The 2 teachers in the room only talk to each other or reprimand the students who don’t stay quiet.”

        I am only thinking about the local media bc the principal is being nonresponsive (and we’ve already met to talk to her about that on a separate issue) and we don’t have any parents’ contact info. I am willing to wait however, but not ruling out local media in the future.

        It’s a potential fire hazard to have that many kids in a small room with only 2 teachers watching. So DSS needs to get involved if the school is not being responsive. If being concerned about my son’s safety is overreacting, then so be it.

        I am sufficiently concerned to pull him out if the school continues this practice without some reasonable concessions such as keeping the lights on and letting the kids sit quietly and read a book. They don’t need to resort to such draconian methods to force kids to sit quietly.

        • DC Association

          I’d also like to add…if there are 30 – 40 three-year-olds and only two teachers, that could be against state regulations for adult/child ratios. I am in DC and there are laws about this. See if you can find that out.

          I agree that I wouldn’t contact the media or child protective services, but if the principal fails to answer you about this, I would go above his/her head. if it is a catholic school, contact the archdioses. I think your issues go beyond this “lights out” practice – it is the non-response of the principal, failure to communciate, et.

          Have you talked to the teachers about this? What did they say?

          • Question for mothers of preschoolers

            The teacher has been cc’d on all the emails with the principal and has yet to utter a word. She is also one of the folks who implements the k&r.

            I believe it’s no more than 12:1 but not certain. Will have to look it up.

            I can see how contacting the local media can be extreme. I personally shy away from such confrontations and like your suggestion of going over her head. It’s a formal domination, I believe. Need to look into it. Didn’t sign up for the religious aspect – just looking for a decent school environment.

            Thanks again to you and the other ladies who responded (even those who disagreed). I respect and am open to hearing everyone’s comments and thanks for tolerating a topic far afield from fashion!

        • Betty White

          I’m not trying to attack you, but the fact that you think that being forced to sit in a chair for a quiet time out is “draconian” really shows how privileged and fortunate a perspective you come from. I think that until you work as a teacher dealing with 30-40 kids and having hyped up parents threatening to call the media because you have their precious little princes and princesses sitting quietly for 10-15 min and/or being forced into a time out, you don’t really get to throw a fit. Take your kid out of the school if it makes you that irate, but I’d question your own perspective a bit more before doing so.

          • Betty White

            Rereading that, it sounds harsher than I meant it to be. I just sympathize heavily with teachers and think that they were acting just fine in this scenario. Kids make us a bit crazy.

          • Question for mothers of preschoolers

            You’re misconstruing my OP. Forcing kids to sit quietly shoulder to shoulder in a semi-dark room for a prolonged period of time (for them) and time out on top of that for talking is what I call draconian. I’m fine with time out in other contexts. And I know how kids can drive one crazy as I have 2 boys under the age of 5.

          • Anonymous

            Completely agree, and I don’t understand why she even asked for advice or opinions when she then responds to every opinion by disagreeing with it and re-asserting her original point. Sounds like a classic helicopter mombie. I doubt the school will be sad to see the back of her.

        • ahh510

          I’d be far, far more worried about the fact that they’re not responding to you. That’s the red flag to me. If they can get that many preschoolers to sit quietly in a room, well, more power to them. It doesn’t strike me as worrisome so much as it strikes me as impossible, or, at least, more trouble than it would be worth.

          So, I think you’re worried about the wrong thing. Any time you have questions about the practices at your child’s preschool/daycare, there should be someone who will promptly and happily explain those practices to you. (and, note, I did say questions, not complaints, because that’s how I think you should approach this) If they can’t do that, then, yes, I’d be looking for another school too.

          • ahh510

            Came back to check for further replies, and now I’m confused. Is it only your son who has told you that they do time-outs for failure to sit quietly? Have you considered that he might not be accurately reporting that? Also, how do you know that “The 2 teachers in the room only talk to each other or reprimand the students who don’t stay quiet”?

            Also, I realize I may have been inaccurate about the school not responding to you – you say she’s been non-responsive, but it looks like there have been multiple e-mails as well as a meeting? So, it’s not that she’s been non-responsive, it’s that you don’t like her responses?

          • Question for mothers of preschoolers

            I asked my son what happened (open qs only) and he told me. Kids just don’t sit there quietly without a reason and the silence in that room was completely unnatural. The teachers weren’t even talking. It was just so strange. While neither the teacher nor the principal have disagreed with my son’s version of what happens during that time, I plan on confirming what my son told me with someone at the school.

            As for the school response, there’s been one email from the principal that gave no room for questions or followup in any way. She said that I had the option of picking him up early. The teacher has been cc’d on that and other emails due to a previous communication failure (for which we met with the principal). Sorry for the confusion.

            I don’t know if I can keep up with comments here; will try though. Thanks

        • LSco

          You’re not going to get the school to change what it’s doing. I say this as someone with four kids, teens and college aged. Principals of child-care centers are totally accustomed to meeting with new parents like you who are freaked and upset over various horrific shocking things they see. I went through what you are going through. They’re probably not responding to you because, frankly, they just want you to chill down or go away. And they don’t have the time or patience. I am sorry to be blunt. My recommendation? Take your child out and find a place you’re more comfortable with. Maybe Montessori.

          Then again–my kids were in Montessori, and well do I remember walking in one day seeing two teachers wrestling some poor child totally out of control who probably had a mental disorder. They carried him out and took him to another room and shut the door. Probably buried him under the swing set.

    • Nevadan

      This seems odd. You need to talk to the Principal or Exec. Director. Nowadays everything a preschool does should be research-based. not just someone’s whim.

    • Emily I

      Mom of three here, ages 8 through 3. I’ve had experience with two preschools. Like you, I would be bothered by this, but it is definitely not social services or media attention worthy. The school’s practice is not great, but it’s not abusive or shocking. On the other hand, it’s not a place I would chose to send my kid.

      My youngest daughter goes to a different preschool than my older two attended, and the difference is night and day. The first school was not “bad,” but I know realize that the environment wasn’t what it could have been. (The teacher was very set in her ways, not as patient as a preschool teacher should be, was more focused on “academics” and gluing the macaroni on very precisely instead of getting the kids excited to be at school.) This new place is fantastic – very attuned to each individual child’s personalities and needs. If you can, find some place fantastic that you feel good about sending your child to. My daughter is disappointed on the days she doesn’t get to school!

      • Emily I

        I meant to also say that if the school is comfortable with this particular practice, other things may be occurring that might not be in the kids’ best interests. It can be an indication of what the overall environment is.

    • Sarah

      Personally I think that you are totally overreacting and that the children are being taught a very valuable skill.

    • Cee

      I have to agree that I don’t think it is CPS worthy, but it is certainly not a good practice.

      Having a preschooler and a kindergartener, I understand the motivation for this practice. Kids are unruly and get more so when they are tired, or if they are getting excited about something (like going home to Mom). Pick up is chaotic. Turning off the lights is a way to lower the stimulation in the room and get them to focus.

      In this case, I’d agree that the preschool has taken this way too far. They should not be making the kids uncomfortable, scaring them, or punishing them for doing what preschoolers do. The amount of time is excessive. Fifteen minutes is an eon when you are three. I would not want my children to experience that every day. I’d talk to the director about it and see if they could work on a new solution for pick-up time that did not amount to punishment. If that didn’t work, I’d find a new place for my child to go to school.

    • KM

      Hi! I understand the reason for this practice, and I think it would be fine with one modification– someone reading a book aloud to the group. Perhaps a different way to approach this issue would be offering to help in that capacity. You’re already picking your child up from school; sounds like coming inside for half an hour might be a nice way to get involved, keep an eye on what’s happening, and get to know the staff/ students in a positive context.

      • Notalawyer

        They should turn the lights down, but not off. Put music on or a book on cd. That seems easy enough to me. A workable compromise?

    • Consulting

      I a mother of a preschooler and, honestly, I have changed schools for less! I would personally remove my child from the school. That seems like a highly inappropriate practice for children that age. If I got a bad enough vibe, I might even go to the local media as you said you want to do! Lucky for your son you found out what they are doing. Who on earth would think that is a good idea?!?!

    • Anonymous

      No, NOT normal for three year olds. I’d switch schools immediately. Out of the question to expect a three year old to sit still in the dark. Completely agree that the teachers should be reading a story, lights on, music, or something else rather than sitting in frozen dark silence. Kinder, first grade, then yes, it is more acceptable to have the kids sitting quietly in a line with backpacks for 10 min while parents come for pick up – but even at that age they are allowed to talk a little bit.

      • AB

        I totally agree! This is not an age-appropriate request. Its totally creepy that they are doing this and, honestly, I don’t care to hear how hard it is to be a teacher. It’s your job. Also, after hours and hours of being “on-it” I don’t see how keeping the kids going for 15 more mins. is going to make or break your day. I would flip out if I found out this was happening to my kids and I wouldn’t hesitate to pull them out, then tell EVERYONE I can the reason why I did it.

        Good luck and keep us updated!

    • Anonymous

      Hmmm….I’ve seen the same thing with older kids if they were already “on notice” for misbehaving (making it dark makes kids quiet usually). Does your son say they always sit in the dark? Or was that a one time thing?

      If they’re always asked to sit in the dark, my guess is that somebody doesn’t know how to properly control kids and is heading for punishment practices when it’s not necessary. Or perhaps their system is just ludicrous. When I worked at a preschool, all notes were written and bags were packed during nape time when the full time teachers left — then I and the other part time staff supervised play during the last couple hours while the parents trickled in picking up the kids. As more and more kids got picked up, more of the staff would leave until I was left to lock up (there had to be one adult for every five kids in the 2-4 year age range, infants were separate).

      You don’t need to be confrontational at all, you just need to know how to talk to these people. (Because you will be labeled “the crazy mom” — which isn’t bad for your kid if they already like your kid, then they will be extra nice since they will feel bad for him. If they don’t like him however, you really don’t want to be the crazy mom.) You need to ask what is the pedagogical imperative behind the children sitting quietly? And, if the children’s day ends at 3:00 instead of 3:15, why are you paying for that time? They won’t be able to give you satisfactory answers. So just keep politely asking them. Whichever teachers or others think it is a nutso policy (and it is, so there will be) will be on your side. Or if it’s that the teacher can’t handle the kids, somebody will let you know that (as long as you’re polite and calm).

      If it’s a just a policy, get your kid out as soon as reasonable (when the semester or year ends). If it’s that the teacher can’t handle the kids, then you need to pull him now, because it might be unsafe. But if you go in screaming like a madwoman (which is a legitimate way to feel) you won’t find anything out, and if you live in a smallish place, all the preschools will hear about how you’re crazy (which you’re not).

      Teachers spend so much time being told that they’re stupid and awful and bad at their jobs and all sorts of horrible things are there fault that if you go in attacking they will shut you down. In fact, most teachers understand that stupid policies are stupid and hate them just as much as you do. Or the teachers know which other teachers are incompetent and they’ll let you know if they trust you.

      I know you’re upset, but sitting in the dark won’t actually hurt your kid, so take a deep breath and be super, super calm and polite. Once you know what’s going on, you’ll know what to do.

      • Anon

        OP here. Thank you and to the rest of the community who offered constructive advice and/or criticism. I’m taking it to heart and implementing. Thank you again for the great advice.

    • Anon 3L

      Mom of a pre-school aged boy. I would be bothered by this practice for all of the reasons stated: 1) not developmentally appropriate (and there are probably children YOUNGER than 3 years old, for whom this practice must be confusing; 2) there are better ways of winding children down at the end of the day than forcing them into quiet submission in fear of reprimand; 3) I expect better from the school. Yes, teachers get tired, but that is why the very good preschools have floaters to come in throughout the day and help when teachers need a break; 4) the lack of responsiveness would bother me a great deal.

      My son doesn’t lie. He does have his view of how things happen, which are very real versions of the events to him. Sometimes his version of what happened does not match with the intent the teachers had. But, it doesn’t matter if his version is correct or not. At this age, the issue is how does this practice make him feel? How is he interpreting it? His interpretation of the events will make an impression on him, and if that impression is negative (when that is not what is intended), then a very good teacher and a very good preschool will realize that they need to adjust their practice so that the kids do not take an otherwise benign event and turn it into something negative.

      I would find a new school, but I would not call the media. Whether it’s warranted, I can’t tell. But, I think that your child will suffer if he is still there when you do place the call. The school will quite easily put two-and-two together.

      • Pam

        All this. I have a three year old son too, and I’d actually be ok with this situation IF they were sitting lights on having a story read to them. Or if stories are a problem (because then kids don’t want to leave when their ride shows up) just having a conversation about what happened that day, or telling short little rhymes that don’t interfere with pick up timing. That would be fine with me. Lights out is just weird and, I think, kind of mean in a way that would be confusing to a child – at least it would be to my (somewhat sensitive) child. It makes me a little sad for them :( That’s my mama bear talking. My advice: do what your mama bear is telling you to do. She’s rarely wrong ;)

    • Anon

      UNSUB to helicopter mother posts.

      Thank you.

      I have babysat and taught at a camp for 4-6 years olds for many years. This seems not good. I would move my child. If a principal and teachers are not being responsive, that is not somewhere I want my kid. Period.

    • Divaliscious11

      It’s sounds a little draconian, but both of my children had a quiet time prior to pick up when they were in preschool. The lights weren’t out, but it was mostly to settle the down so that there was an orderly pick up. I wouldn’t say the concept is abnormal, but your place sounds a little intense….

    • anon

      Actually, this is what you deserve for putting your kind in a religious school. Have you not been paying attention to all the stuff about corporal punishment being God’s preferred way of education? You’re lucky they aren’t actually whipping your child when they get out of line.

  11. Dutchfan

    Speaking velvet jackets- what shoes would you wear with a velvet (evening) dress? i don’t have any patent shoes and i thought that would look better than suede or regular leather.

    • DC

      Evening shoes should be satin or other fabric, not leather, suede or patent. Since you’re wearing a velvet dress, I think velvet shoes would be overkill, so I’d go satin.

      • Dutchfan

        It’s evening as in for night time, not a floor length gown or anything. Does that change your opinion? The event is next week and I don’t have time and/or money to buy new shoes!

        • Cat

          I think either patent leather or satin shoes look best with velvet. Velvet is such an “evening” fabric that it’s hard to avoid wearing dressy, “evening” shoes with it, especially with a velvet dress.

          If you buy a pair of basic patent leather heels (I’m guessing Nine West would have some), you could also wear them to work, mitigating the cost?

        • Bianca

          I think patent would be fine. Depending on how dressy the event is, you would probably also be able to get away with a recently polished pair of regular leather pumps in black.

        • DC

          Oh, I read evening as a gown – sorry. I still think satin shoes will look better with velvet, but it wouldn’t be inappropriate to wear leather. If your choices are regular leather or suede, I’d go with regular leather – suede with velvet just seems like it’d look sort of odd.

    • mamabear

      I think satin shoes would be best, and if you buy black, you’ll wear them for dressy occasions for years to come. They can also be had quite inexpensively at places like DSW or Marshalls, etc.

      But in a pinch, I think patent shoes are fine. Make sure they’re in good shape and spiffed up.

      Regular leather shoes would be my last choice.

      • Dutchfan

        Great suggestions! thanks! I also have a pair of sparkly silver and black shoes- the material is fabric (not cheap looking, not satin though). they are definitely night time shoes. would those work too??

          • Dutchfan

            thank you SO much for the advice! these shoes are really high, but they’re fun and i dont wear them often…going go to go and buy some foot petals to make them comfy!

    • mamabear

      Hey Dutchfan – RueLaLa has a section of c*cktail dresses today. Many are $99.

      • mamabear

        oh duuuuh, sorry Dutchfan. You were not the poster looking for formalwear!

  12. Coach Laura

    PSA – Talbots has 30% off plus free shipping over $100. Starts today (but somehow it doesn’t say when it ends). Code: THIRTY

  13. KC

    Office Behavior Question-

    I work in an administrative department of a “biglaw” firm in DC. I work on a floor with NO attorneys, in a seperate building from our main office. There are three departments in this floor, all totally un-related. One of the other departments is comprised of the MOST ANNOYING people on earth . I sit by the door, and all day, I hear them coming in and out (they all take 3-4 coffee breaks a day), they have extended conversations in tge halls at extreme volumes about nothing work related, use very crass language in the halls and generally make for a disruptive work enviorment. One of them uses the phone all the time, and that’s fine, as it appears work reltaed, but he takes all his calls on speakerphone. I’ve only been here for about 4 months, and it seems like everyone else in my department can deal with it, but I cannot. My job involves a great deal of detailed reading (reading thru SEC filings and things like that) and I can’t concentrate with the constant conversation int he hall. Who should I contact? Like i’ve said, my colleges in my department seem OK with this behavior – apparantly, we used to be in a much worse office with very close quarters, so this situation is better for them. I dont want to start something or seem like I’m making up excuses – should I just suck it up? Thanks!!

    • found a peanut

      I empathize with you because I have no tolerance for background noise. First, is there any way you can close your door or otherwise limit your exposure? And if you work in a cube, is there an office/conference room you can decamp to to get more quiet?

      Second, you should probably realize the problem is you, not them. I say that as nicely as possible because what you’re going through would probably drive me up the wall as well, but I know it’s because *I* am overly sensitive, not because other people are being rude. Now with that in mind, I would first suggest you talk to the people who are annoying you. Next time they congregate outside your work space, you should politely and sweetly say, I’m sorry guys but I’m kind of overly sensitive to noise, and you guys are so much more fun than the SEC filing I’m reading, and it’s getting distracting. I hate to break up the party, but would you mind talking somewhere else?

      If that doesn’t work, go to HR. But you should try to talk to them about it first.

    • anonymous

      If your colleges seem okay with it, it isn’t worth your time or the drama to try to control this behavior. Try earplugs or noise canceling headphones.

      • Terry

        Noise cancelling headphones work on constants sounds, like the hum of equipment. Conversations would still be audible.

        • karenpadi

          My noise canceling headphones bring down the noise level of a conversation though. So if you can work with some speaking in the background, they’ll work.

          When I need to concentrate, I rely on music that I don’t want to pay attention too like Mozart or Beethoven (I listened to them all through college so I have those guys memorized) or 80s pop. Some people swear by Christmas music.

      • Jen

        This is what I do. Sometimes I play light music via earphones to block out conversations.

      • S

        In fairness, I don’t know if I would want to do this all the time–but if you’ve got a really big project and it’s driving you abosolutely batty, then find a white noise (or purple noise, pink noise, etc.) website and use some headphones. Even music makes it tough for me to focus, but I’ve found repetitive sounds of water or fans or such strangely don’t seem as bothersome.

    • Research, Not Law

      I’m sorry. Obnoxious coirkers are the worst.

      I’d suck it up and take the advice above. If it continues to be an issue for you, I’d bring it up to your supervisor. I would certainly focus on creating an environment that works for you rather than controlling the behavior of the other employees. For example, maybe you could move to a workspace in a quiet corner.

      When they are casually talking loudly in the halls, I think it would be fine to peak your head out and say nicely “I’m trying to do something that requires my full concentration, could you please speak quietly or move your conversation? Thank you.” It could get you branded, but I do think it’s within your right to request.

      • CO

        You’ve only worked at this company for a very short time. I would be careful about complaining to others about the noise. Don’t go over anyone’s head to try to resolve the issue. Try every other tactic first — headphones, alternate work spaces, closing your door, etc. Good luck! Sounds annoying.

        • M-C

          Good advice CO. Obviously these people are senior to the complainer, and have been getting away with it for years. Bitching about their behavior isn’t going to be perceived well. But I think it’s perfectly legitimate to test technological solutions, at least to get you to feel more in control of the situation. I’d advise though that earphones that can be clearly seen (color or size) are a necessity in a office – you can’t have people thinking you’re ignoring their attempts at conversation, especially your colleagues in the same office. And over-the ear gear is better in terms of instant on and off, also for the sake of appropriate office communication.

    • EM

      Great advice. I second the advice to wear more makeup than you usually do. I normally wear powder, but used regular foundation and a darker lipstick color than my typical gloss or nothing for my professional headshot. A coworker of mine (who is somewhat fondly thought of as a bit of a loose cannon) said to me, “Are you wearing makeup?!?” when he saw me that morning. ROFL My picture came out great. It didn’t really look like I was wearing makeup. I just looked natural and awake.

  14. R in Boston

    Hey all, I’m having my photo for my firm’s website done Monday (we are all getting updates) – any advice? I always feel like pictures of me are terrible.

    My outfit plan currently includes a navy pants suit, eggplant silk shell, and pearls.

        • Kanye East

          Yeah, if it was B&W, I’d stay away from super-high-contrast, black, white, or navy. Grays and pastels tend to be better for B&W (so I’m told).

          I think your plan sounds classic & perfect. Another one of my favorite looks for women on law firm websites is a plain white shirt with relatively conservative but slightly bold jewelry; I so envy women who can look like Carolina Herrera in a white button-down. I just don’t feel like I really own it, but those who do: I salute you!

        • Lydia

          If you don’t know, I would go with a lighter shell. In black & white, it may appear that you tried to match the shell to your jacket. Better to have a contrast.

    • MissJackson

      Wear a little more makeup than usual. I say this as someone who did not and looks a little washed out.
      I would also go get a blow out that morning if I could swing it schedule-wise. Again, something that I did not do, but wish that I would have. That picture is friggin everywhere.

      Also, Kat did a post on this a long time ago — try searching.

      • Anon

        I regret my photo so much. I pulled my hair back for whatever dumb reason and I look like a man. I love my hair, too, and never wear it back. I don’t know what I was thinking!

      • R in Boston

        Totally forgot about this thread.

        I have now made an appointment to have my hair blown out and I’m going to see if I can dig up a slightly lighter shell to bring with me in case the eggplant/navy isn’t enough contrast. And I will do an extra good job on my make up Monday morning.

        Thanks all!

    • Photos

      I have done extensive research and trial & error on this topic. Here is what I’ve learned:

      1. Dark suit jacket, light top. But, as someone above said, not black and white because it will be too sharp a contrast. (Something weird happens and it looks funny, even though in real life it is fine.)

      1 1/2. Wear something fitted. Jackets that are even slightly not fitted look gigantic and as if you are swimming in them on film.

      2. Hair down. As someone mentioned, pulled back looks funny in photos.

      3. Hair straight, not curly. It just looks better.

      4. More makeup than usual. Matte powder. Darker lipstick, especially with black and white photos. You want the contrast between your lips and skin, so soft pink, while nice in real life, is not for photos.

      5. Simple but not petite jewelry. Earrings and choker length necklace, so you can see the whole arc of the necklace.

      6. Sit up straight.

      7. Pull your shoulders down and together in the back (between the shoulder blades). This elongates your neck and makes your face look thinner.

      8. Know which is your best look: right side, left side or straight on. Then do it, no matter what the photographer says.

      9. Take some smiling and some not. Then you’ll have some choices.

      Good luck. I hate having my photo taken.

      • Photos

        10. If, when you see the proofs, you don’t like any, insist on another shoot.

        11. Once you get one you like, get the jpeg. You will need a good headshot on short notice throughout your career, so you will be glad to have it on hand for a few years. (Eventually, you’ll have to get another one.)

    • zora

      practice your smile and head position in the mirror this weekend. This sounds lame, but it really makes a difference. That’s why actors look good in red carpet photos, they have practiced. Make a smile in the mirror, or other facial expression you like, and then concentrate on how it feels, and try to recreate it without the mirror. And think about how your shoulders feel when they’re back, and how your neck feels when you hold your chin in a good position. A good photographer will help with these things when setting up the shot, but if you already feel like you never look good in pictures, some practice will really help.

  15. Little Lurker

    “Brooks Brothers is having a sick clearance sale, with lots of items marked up to 70% off.”

    Kat, you know I love you, but your use of slang here made me laugh. Just so you know, I haven’t heard anyone under 25 say “sick” like that in a year or so. (Of course YMMV.) I just keep picturing someone throwing up all over the jewelry. :D

    Keep on with your bad self!

    • CC

      I still hear it all the time :) its still prevalent in sports context, I haven’t heard it about sales haha

    • lawtalkinggirl

      My 36-year-old boyfriend says “sick” all the time… especially when showing me one of his 10,000 snowboarding photographs…

  16. Betty

    Hi All, I could use some advice. Currently a 2L and just accepted an offer for a summer associate position. (woohoo!) I became interested in the firm because one of my professors from last semester is an associate there. He was incredibly helpful throughout the process, emailing and talking to the partners and associates I would be meeting with prior to my interviews and apparently saying “great things” about me. My question is, how do I show my appreciation for this? We’re fairly close in age (He’s mid-30s, so about 10 yrs older than me) and I just don’t know how to go about this. TIA!

      • SAlit-a-gator

        I concurr with DC – a heartfelt thank you note is the perfect way to let someone know how grateful you are. Anything else you could get them (Starbucks gift card, etc) doesn’t really convey how much you appreciate it as much as a note would.

    • karenpadi

      Handwritten note.

      It sounds like he recruited you. That is so awesome! Treat yourself to something special this weekend.

      • Betty

        thanks all! a handwritten note was what I had in mind, so I’m glad you all agree.

  17. conbrio

    Does anyone have a couch they love? I’m going to be in the market for one soon, and I want something well-made and durable that can stand up to cats’ occasional digestive problems, and that’s still stylish and good-looking. I’m vegan, so leather is out. I tend to like a clean, minimal kind of look. Any input would be much appreciated!

    • Pepper

      Not sure if it meets your needs, but I have the Ikea Lycksele, which is a small (2-seater) sofa. I picked it because it has a replaceable cover (under $100 to replace) which is also machine washable (like you, I have pukey cats). It also pulls out to a bed, and the mattress is quite comfortable. I’ve had it for four years now and have not needed to replace the cover yet, and it’s held up very well with occasional washings.

      Ikea also has several other good choices that are entirely fabric and have a removable and washable cover, including larger sofas if you’re looking for a full-size one. I have several pieces of Ikea furniture, and while I wouldn’t recommend their super cheap stuff, their mid-range and high-end stuff holds up great.

    • R in Boston

      I have the Ethan Allen “Avanti” couch (if I remember the name correctly) and have been really happy with it. I’ve had it for about 2 years and it is still very comfortable, no lumps/stuffing coming out/etc. I have no kids and no pets, so my house is not a hard place to be a couch, but I remember the EA salespeople being pretty knowledgeable about what kinds of fabric could stand up to what and how they should be cleaned.

      I also like clean, minimal furniture, but wanted a couch that wasn’t so low to the ground as most of those are. This couch is rather tall – I think the seat height is about 20″ and the back is around 35″. We also got the chaise longue portion (so the couch is L-shaped) because my husband really wanted to be able to stretch out and that has been great, comfortable, and handy when guests are around.

      • Bursting out

        I love this! I’ve been vaguely looking around for a new couch for awhile, and this fits all my parameters. Thanks for posting it!

    • eaopm3

      I’m having a heck of a time finding a couch, as well. I’m not sure what your price range is, but I have fallen in love with the new furniture line DwellStudio launched. I got some fabric samples, and two of them seemed really great and durable, while the other two were not sturdy enough for a three dog and one rugged husband household. I haven’t pulled the trigger yet because of the price point.

    • MeliaraofTlanth

      I had a longer response typed, but it was eaten by “posting to quickly.” In short, no specific suggestions, but try something with a slipcover for easy clean up after pets.

    • Cee

      I have some couches in my basement from Crate & Barrel that are covered in their microfiber fabric (Walnut is my color). I love them. I don’t have cats, but I have kids. Snot, milk, juice and other things wipe clean with a wet cloth. We’ve had them at least three years and they still look good. I think my couches are from the Lounge line, but the fabric is an option for several of their styles.

      I just bought the plain Pottery barn canvas couches for our great room. Not the style you are looking for, but man are they comfy. The covers are washable (again, the dirty children).

      • karenpadi

        I’ll second the ease to clean microfiber. But, for cats, it’s not ideal. My cats are not declawed and have accidentally poked holes through the microfiber. They are very small and only visible to me. I’d consider a woven fabric treated with a stain protector. Or maybe they should come up with a woven microfiber material…

        • eh230

          I have a woven couch, and I second the recommendation to try that if you are looking for a cat friendly material.

          • Sara

            natuzzi from kasala- the stain-resistant microfiber never shocks to amaze me at how it looks perfect despite whatever we spill or our dog does.

    • AEK

      Recently moved into a bigger place and have been furniture shopping like a champ. Try Room and Board. Their stuff is clean & minimalist, and great quality. Everything’s made in the USA. We’re on our third couch from there, with the previous two still in great shape & being used in den & rec rooms. One is a little retro and quirky (Andre); one is huge and comfy (Kendal?) and the other is sleek (Luca). I know that Metro and York are very popular too, for more basic options.

      • Dagny T

        Second! I have a sectional from Room & Board that I love and is very easy to clean. It was delivered pre-treated against staining.

    • TK1

      When we were couch shopping a few years ago we found the nicest couches in department stores like J.C. Penney (where we ultimately bought the most comfortable couch ever!) and Macys. Bonus is the salespeople stalk you less than in furniture stores. I also like Bob’s Discount furniture if you are in the North East. Lots of comfortable, reasonably priced couches and probably the least stalk-y of the furniture stores.

      • RL

        Second Bob’s! I am sitting on my Bob’s couch right now and it’s awesome (and has withstood a year of pukey, sheddy cats with no trouble at all).

    • mamabear

      The couch I am sitting on right this very moment is a custom-made leather Chesterfield-type sofa. It was a HUGE splurge for me in my twenties (it cost over $2000 and was half off!) but I have had it since 1991 – no I am not kidding, 1991 – and it is still in perfect condition. I have now gone through three sets of armchairs in my living room while the sofa lives on.

      And, by the way, this sofa has seen three babies, a large dog and several cats. It has also been thrown up on more than once, and has had at least twenty overnight guests sleeping on it.

      So what I’m saying is – 1) go for leather, 2) go expensive – inner spring hand tied cushions, solid wood frame, all that, and 3) go classic. The sofas that were in style when I bought this were the squishy soft italian leather types in colors like teal. Yikes! I am so glad I bought a style that has stood the test of time!

      • Lawyer Bird

        Oh, nonono leather with cats. No no no. Plus OP said she’s a vegan.

        I second the rec for Ikea – many of their products are vegan, and have slipcovers that can be removed and put in the washer, and replaced if necessary. I’ve always been very happy with my Ikea furniture.

        • mamabear

          You’re right that I missed the vegan thing.

          But I stand by my recommendation for leather furniture with cats. They can’t use it as a scratching post. They are not attracted to claw it like they are fabric upholstery. I have both leather furniture and fabric furniture, plus two “intact” (not declawed) cats and I can tell you – they only like the fabric.

          & my 20 year old couch has been through at least 10 cats in its lifetime.

        • M-C

          I think leather is great with cats, provided you don’t have one who loves it for their claw sharpening (they are individuals, each with their own vices). That said, removable slipcovers from Ikea are also very good. And velvet is both tough and hides the occasional claw mark better, recommended by my upholsterer friend.

    • conbrio

      Thank you, Corporettes – you always come through with great advice! I’m looking forward to checking out all of your suggestions.

    • NOLA

      I would be careful with microfiber that has a nap. Mine is a dark mushroom/shale color and I have a black cat and the nap on it acts like a cat brush! I’ve tried to use a lint brush on it and it took the nap just about off. So I have to vacuum it pretty often. It does stand up well to the occasional puking incident, but I can’t keep her from scratching it no matter what I do.

  18. Sarah

    I would like to point out how wonderful it is to see the word “sick” appear in the same sentence as “Brooks Brothers.” Hurrah.

  19. ap

    Somewhat silly question about appropriate fit for skirts:
    Sometimes I wonder if my pencil skirts are too tight to be law firm appropriate, but I think sizing up makes me look bigger than I am (and then maybe frumpy – see Kat’s post on “thoughts on frump”). If the smaller size has absolutely no “smiling,” no hint of muffin top, and hits just above my knee, am I being paranoid that it’s too tight to be appropriate? My skirts in one size up are a bit loose around my waist (can fit in 1 or 2 fingers) and definitely loose around the hips. The skirts are standard JCrew suiting skirts and I have pretty short legs, if that makes any difference.

    • Maddie Ross

      IMO, if you’re concerned about it or self-conscious about it, it may be too tight. If you’re concerned it may be too tight based on comments you’ve read on here, I’d be less worried. I wear almost exclusively pencil skirts and like you, there is no “smiling,” muffin top or excessive bulging and they hit just at my knee or slightly above. That said, I have a butt. It’s pronounced and you can tell it’s there in pencil skirts. I’m female. It happens. I’m not getting picked up on the street corner or mistaken for someone who would be in a j.crew skirt suit or The Skirt.

      • mamabear

        I think pencil skirts are supposed to be fitted but not tight. I agree with Anonymous – they shouldn’t cup under your rear end. If you find that skirts that fit your hips are too large in the waist (very common) you should buy the larger size and have the waist taken in.

        • Maddie Ross

          I guess I’m not talking about “cupping” under it, but rather that my butt sticks (bubbles?) out in pencil skirts, if that makes sense. It doesn’t look like the skirts in the “Addicted to Love” video from the 80s.

          • found a peanut

            My pencil skirts do the same thing. I used to be self-conscious about it but then I realized that my butt sticks out of everything because it is a sticking-out butt. All skirts cup the underside of my bottom because that is just my body.

            You can try buying one size bigger and tailoring the waist in, which is something I do sometimes, but the alteration is an expensive one so I don’t do it all the time. You can also try to avoid pencil skirts, which is hard because most skirts are pencil-y.

            Or you can do what I do, which is the above to things + sucking it up, realize there’s no fixing it, and move on. I work in a small firm though which is not super formal so YMMV.

          • Hel-lo

            Not every booty is appropriate in a pencil skirt. I think they are most work-appropriate on ladies with smaller booties.

            I have no pencil skirts. I love the round-ness of my rear. So does my boyfriend. :)

            But no one at work knows how much pride I have in it. Because it is not shown off.

            I don’t think “most skirts are pencil-y.” Look for A-line. They are flattering on everyone. Or straight skirts. Or tulip/bubble/2010 trends, if that’s what you’re into.

            But not everyone can wear pencils.

            Does this make you look old? Sure. That’s what work is for.

    • Anonymous

      Am I wearing a work appropriate pencil skirt?

      – Is it tight enough that it curves over/cups the underside of my bottom? If yes, not appropriate.

      – Do I absolutely positively have to wear a thong or risk VPL? If yes, not appropriate.

      – Does even a thong create VPL? If yes, good god, not appropriate.

      – Is it near enough to the vicinity of my knees (just over, at, just under) that a reasonable group of men and women would deem it knee length? If no, not appropriate.

      That’s about all I can think of. From your description, your skirts sound just fine.

      • MissJackson

        I generally agree with the above, except perhaps the VPL which is sometimes more about the fabric than the fit. I think the key is the “cupping the underside of your bottom” – if no: you’re good.

      • coco

        Clearly, we need to make a flow chart that goes with the am i wearing pants one.

    • ap

      Thanks for the helpful input. I think I’m okay, and the culprit in my only questionable item is the fabric. It’s JCrew’s bi-stretch wool suiting from this year, which is rather thin (+ stretchy, obviously), so buyer beware.

    • M-C

      One or two fingers in the waistband IS good fit. If only because sometimes you may want to have lunch :-). And because breathing is a good thing. But on the whole you may want to consult with a good tailor…

  20. Anonymous

    Please give me advice!

    I’m going to Hong kong this xmas with my bf and will most likely be staying with him and his parents. However my mom thinks I while get my own hotel otherwise I will look cheap trying to reap benefits. Keep in mind I’m paying for everything with my own money. Bf is 25 and I’m 23 both with full time jobs. We’ve been dating for 4 years.

    Do you think I should stay at a hotel by myself? it just doesn’t make sense to me since the only person I’m hanging out with/know over there is him. It would be a lot more convenient to just start together and we would have separate rooms anyway.

    • cfm

      Sorry I don’t quite understand. Have they invited you to stay with them? If yes, then yes you stay with them, and make sure you send them a thank you note after. (usually I would say bring something but if you are traveling international that’s tricky)

      • Anonymous

        Yes, they have invited me multiple times but my mom still thinks it’s inappropriate since we’re not married.

        And I’m definitely not going empty handed.

        • cfm

          Oh my goodness then def stay with them. You don’t need to tell your mom the details of bed situations but yes, stay in the house, esp since you are going for Christmas, I am sure they are excited about the chance to get to know you.

        • Bianca

          Ask your mom what the real issue is…it sounds like the “inappropriate since we’re not married” issue is the real one for her. If this isn’t an issue to you, then yes, you should definitely stay with the family.

          Bring expensive candy as a gift. Because you are a guest, you’re unlikely to have many chances to pay for meals, etc. so be generous with the gift! If your boyfriend’s family celebrates Xmas you should also bring everyone you’re staying with a small present.

          • Cat

            Frankly, my mother would probably have been more concerned about premarital “fun” if I, in the same situation, had opted to GET a hotel room — not only would the boyfriend’s family NOT be within earshot / chance of running into them in the hallway coming out of his room, it would be much easier for me and boyfriend to say we’re sightseeing and sneak off if there’s a hotel room involved… would that same rationale perhaps convince your mother?

        • Research, Not Law

          Bianca and I have the same mother.

          Stay with his parents. You’ve been invited. You will look rude if you instead stay at a hotel.

        • another anon

          OK, I’m really not getting your mom’s logic here. I am assuming that you aren’t both still living at home at your ages, and either you have already engaged in the activity she is worried about or you have not. If you already have, then it’s too late. If you haven’t, does she really think that you would do so for the first time at his parents house? WHY?

          • Adara

            Seriously! Someone please get this through to my parents as well. This thinking makes no sense at all!

        • modernwoman

          I think it’s time to stop caring what your mom thinks. YOU GUYS ARE STAYING IN SEPARATE ROOMS! To expect you to get a hotel is antiquated and no doubt would offend his family. If it makes you feel better, don’t share the details with your mom–though if I were you, I would just tell her what I was doing. You are not a child, you’re a grown woman.

      • SF Bay Associate

        If you were invited, then your boyfriend’s family will take offense if you don’t stay with them. If you go stay in a hotel, what you are saying is that their home is not good enough for you, and that you think they will be bad hosts, and that you are too important or better than them to stay at their home. It would be deeply insulting for you to not stay there, unless you can pull out some higher power reason, like your family doesn’t want you to stay in the same house as your boyfriend due to their conservative values. However, if his family knows you’ve ever stayed together in the same place, then that excuse will totally fall flat.

        Not only should you send a thank you note, but it is traditional in Asian cultures to bring a hostess gift. In Japan, it’s called omiyage. I’m virtually certain there is an equivalent in Chinese culture. Very, very fancy candy in a beautiful box, or something else edible from the US would be appropriate.

        • alliegator

          I can’t quite figure out from your post if the four of you are vacationing there together, or if your boyfriend’s family is from Hong Kong, and you will be staying in their home. If the latter, I absolutely agree with the need for a host/ess gift – my parents are from Hong Kong, and it’s just what people there do. The gift doesn’t have to be expensive, but showing up empty handed would be considered quite rude.

          Have a great trip – I love my (other) hometown!

          • OP here

            His parents live there and we are visiting. Any ideas on what to bring as a gift? I was thinking about ginseng and the likes.

          • alliegator

            I can’t say that I’m the best person to ask, but here are my thoughts:
            -I don’t actually think that sweets/chocolates are necessarily a bad idea, but that could just be my high-blood-sugar-and-pre-diabetes-‘r’-us family. hah.
            -People are really into American ginseg (especially from WI) for whatever reason – that is definitely an option
            -It might be nice to bring them something “local” from your hometown or where you are living now – gourmet maple syrup if you are from VT, a cedar plank cutting board if you are from the PNW, etc.
            -If your boyfriend’s family likes to cook, they might enjoy an American-style cookbook – something with great photography that can also be used as a coffee table book

            Also, I just want to reiterate that the gift does NOT have to be expensive, especially given that you are a recent grad – it just needs to show thought and consideration. If they are miffed that you didn’t throw down more money, then that reflects poorly on them, not on you – but you already knew that, right?

            Good luck! Let us know what you wind up getting.

          • Kady

            Ask you bf if there is anything they ask folks visiting from the US to bring. I know this is weird, but I’m always asked to bring vitamins b/c they are expensive in asia. Also, name brand skin care products are popular with women (again, higher markup in asia).

        • Adara

          If they’re relatively traditionally-living Chinese, I would avoid candy as a gift because they might not actually enjoy eating it. I’ve had loads of trouble coming up with appropriate host/ess gifts for my man’s parents because sweet foods are not an option. They’ll surely appreciate the gesture, but you might as well give a safer gift.

          • Adara

            To “OP here” (haha): I always have a tough time! Thankfully I’ve visited them enough times by now that I can at least try to be more personal with the gift-giving. Usually what ends up happening is I see/think of something at a random time that his mom might like (eg. recently bought her a pretty bag for next time), and then I let my man take care of something for his hard-to-read dad (eg. fave cigarette brand or fancy alcohol). Seriously though, if at all possible, go for something useful but personal–enlist your man’s help. Does the dad play golf? Maybe get him some fancy golf balls. Does the mom like to wear jewelry? Maybe you can find her a beautiful, special brooch. Just avoid things like…spa certificates (“waste of money!”), or plants (“just more work to do!”–and you can’t get those through customs anyway :P) unless you know they’d definitely be into it.
            I do feel like in this kind of situation (especially if you don’t know the parents really well yet), you really need to get your man’s help–he’s on your side and is your best source of information!
            This just reminded me of how a few weeks ago my boss, a Taiwanese woman, was stressing out over and begging me to help her with finding a hostess gift for some Americans, haha!

          • Adara

            Oh! I forgot to add, the first couple gifts I gave were handmade cookies, which they appreciated and enjoyed but were (as is, I found out later, many Chinese/Taiwanese people’s wont) not inclined to eat more than one for fear of them magically causing diabetes. After those semi-fails, I swore off gifting them anything remotely sweet :P

    • Accountress

      If you’re vacationing together, you should definitely stay together. I imagine there’s no need for a hotel unless your boyfriend doesn’t want to spend every moment with his parents- and if that’s the case, maybe a vacation-from-the-vacation could be in order- visit someplace away from the parents’ home, that takes the whole day to see, and stay the night before & after.

    • OP here

      Thank you for all your feedback! I think I will stay with them and my mom seems to have gotten over it. Now the hard part is the gift to bring!

  21. SOS

    I have my first employee feedback session soon. I’d like to go in with some questions prepared, but since this is my first office job I am not sure what is appropriate. I workfor an accounting firm and will meet with a partner.

    Any guidance is much appreciated!

    • Research, Not Law

      My advice is to listen graciously.

      I don’t work in accounting, but I’ve never needed to prepare anything for a performance review (other than any requested documentation or input submitted in advance).

      • R in Boston

        Agree on the listen gracefully and would extend it to accepting any negative feedback gracefully. Don’t just nod or be defensive; ask questions and try to make sure you get the “constructive” part with any “criticism”.

        I also like to go in a with a list (mental or physical) of accomplishments/areas of growth since my last review and also a couple of instances in which I felt I struggled, so that I can highlight what I’ve done well but will also be prepared for the “what didn’t go so well?” question that often comes up in reviews.

        Good luck!

        • karenpadi

          I have a hard time asking questions about negative feedback without coming off as defensive. So what I’ve learned to do is to repeat back what I’m hearing and to try to add context. For example, respond to “you should make more public presentations” with “So a good goal for me is to prepare presentations for client X or group X on a topic like Y next year. Do you know of any resources that might be helpful?” If I am wrong, I get some clarity.

    • karenpadi

      I’ll second Research, not Law. Take the advice graciously and seriously. At this point in your career, you can be forgiven for just about anything.

      I’d end the feedback session by going over what you perceive as your goals for the next year should be. Something like, “Based on our conversation, in the next year, my professional goals are to x, y, and z.” This will show that you were listening and are taking the feedback session seriously.

      Common goals for newbie employees are better time management (e.g., have projects to a reviewer earlier), better communication of project status, to seek out new types of projects, and to work with other mentors.

    • Cat

      Did you have to do a self evaluation prior to the review? Any highlights/challenges that you mentioned are the likeliest candidates for questions from the reviewer. You could also use the challenges (whether or not you had to submit them as a self-eval) as an example of ways to ask for guidance on how to improve or handle things differently.

  22. mamabear

    PSA
    For the group that was talking about sweater jackets last week – I just scored three boiled wool type sweater jackets at Marshalls. Two were $40 ,one was $25. They are more blazer like than sweater like, and all three will be appropriate for my not-very-casual business casual workplace. All three will be perfect for my particular office because it’s probably the coldest office in the building.

    I found two of the three at a newer Marshall’s that is a little higher-end. I drove to the older Marshall’s in town to try to find my size in a style I liked & their selection was much more limited.

    Brands are Cynthia Rowley, Maria Christina and Kenar.

  23. SAlit-a-gator

    Thinking about cutting my just below the shoulder length curly hair shorter for a more mature and professional look. Excited but petrified about not having the up-do option since I often don’t have time to do anything with my hair when working late, etc. I put my hair up 2-3 times a week. I’d like to get it cut shorter, however, so I can look more professional and put together. I have super curly but fine hair that does not straighten well. Thinking about going with a chin length cut. Anybody with curly hair have any words of wisdom for me?

    • Curly

      I have curly hair. Most of my hair is fine, some are coarse. There is just a lot of it. It straightens well. I once wrote on this site that I have Jewish hair, in the context of a thread about hair dryers, and sparked an unexpected controversy. (FWIW I am Jewish.) But, that’s the kind of hair I have.

      My hair is now and has been for about 14 years bottom of ears/chin length, shorter in back than in the front. I blow it straight every day. (Short digression: I swear by Solano 3600 ionic dryer, Spornette Prego 270 ceramic round brush, John Frieda Weatherproofing styler and Bamboo anti-humidity hair spray.) It takes about 7 minutes to dry. When it takes 10 minutes, I know that if I look in my calendar, there will be an appointment in the next few days to have it cut. Maybe once a week (on Sundays if I am not leaving the house or can wear a baseball cap) I let it dry curly — and when we are traveling in third world countries. Although I do not care for it curly, it is mostly presentable that way. It is too short to put up.

      In high school, college, law school and the first couple years of practice, I had a very short hair cut. It was basically like a school boy, with a little bit of length in the front and on top. Not *exactly* Flock of Seagulls because not that extreme, but that general idea. The back and sides were razor cut and when you ran your hands against them, it felt like velvet. It was very flattering and professional. However, I absolutely HAD to dry it straight every day because if I did not, the part where there was length on the top and in the front curled up like a poodle because there was no weight to pull it down. This was NOT negotiable and baseball caps didn’t help because it was so fluffy. Drying only took 2-4 minutes, but it was mandatory, so I had to carry a dryer everywhere I went. Also, my face was very thin then. Not sure if I could pull it off now.

      Just something to consider. Let us know what you do.

      • Salit-a-gator

        To clarify, straightening is not an options for two reasons: (1) my hair is so crazy fine that post-straightening it literally gets fizzy by the slightest breeze; hairspray just creates an awkward looking helmet head. (2) I’m incredibly lazy and don’t want to waste 30 min+ to straighten my hair; I’d rather sleep in. I don’t even blow dry! Just towel dry, some product and I’m good to go. Straightening is thus not a practical thing for me, plus I happen to be one of the few and proud who love their hair curly.

        So, what does the hive mind say about a short curly bob? Do you know any women in leadership position who rock this look? Is it better than putting my hair up in a bun?

        • MissJackson

          There is an associate at my firm with curly hair who wears it in a short bob, and it looks fantastic. I know that she just washes and goes, and it always looks great. In my opinion, if your hair always looks great down (as I think it would with a short cut), there is absolutely no reason to pull it back.

          I’m highly jealous of her low-maintanence hair — and yours! I say go for it!

    • So

      It sounds like your hair is very similar to mine – curly, super fine, doesn’t stay straightened – and I’ve had good luck with chin length. In fact, I find it looks best at that length, since there’s not so much hair that it’s weighed down yet long enough to show off some great curl. Plus, you can totally put your hair up if you want – just supplement the ponytail with a couple of bobby pins or barrettes to keep short pieces out of your face. Right now I have it below the shoulder, which I find to be super inconvenient because it gets caught on my purse straps, which makes it frizzy…sigh…a shorter length cut is in my future too, I guess!

      TL;DR: go for it!

    • Lawyer Bird

      I have curly hair the same length as yours. I go back and forth between long and shortish hair. The problem with chin-length hair is that you have to wash it in the morning, because you cannot wear it unstyled or pull it back, and it’s too short for the tricks you can use to keep curls nice for a couple of days (like pineappling). Long hair is much, much less work. If you do cut it, learn to do a conditioner wash so you can avoid shampooing every time you wash, since you’ll have to wash every day. Make time in your morning routine to wash and dry your hair. Be prepared for some increased damage or dryness that comes along with daily washes. If you haven’t already, check out naturallycurly dot com for more tips.

      • meara

        Totally agree with this–and for me, when my hair gets too short (a little less than chin length?) it doesn’t really curl! It’ll wave a bit, and be frizzy, but in order to have pretty curls I need it to be between chin and shoulder. (When I was in high school I had waist length hair, and then it just waved)

        If you really put it up that often, you may find short curly hair more annoying–but it’s hair. It grows out. Give it a shot, maybe you’ll love it, and if you don’t you can grow it!

    • Kelly

      I have straight/wavy hair, but have had bobs on and off for my entire life. I do like to put my hair up and am active, so when it’s bobbed I can put it half up, or use the comb barrette (or other clips) things to pull back the sides, and it still looks professional. I think a short curly bob would look good half pulled back or with the sides clipped back on days its extra frizzy or you just want it out of your face. I also use headbands when I went it off my face or the front isn’t behaving, but only when I’m wearing contacts.

      I had a professor in law school who had an awesome curly bob. Personally, I find short hair so liberating and always feel more myself with it.

      • KK

        I think a short curly bob could be awesome, but it really depends on your face shape and how well it’s cut. Do you have a regular hair dresser? If not, make sure you find someone who specializes in curly hair. You should give it a shot though- worst case scenario is that you don’t like it and it grows out in a few months. No big deal.

  24. PollyD

    I must share – was at Target today and what did I find on an endcap display in the Automotive section? The orange swirly Missoni vase! I am quite excited, I had wanted a Missoni vase but was shut out by Target’s crap website on the day. Nice start to the weekend!

    • I love Target

      I love Target. But someone whom I respect recently told me that she had read that Target gives a lot of money to the anti-choice effort. Questions:

      1. How is that possible? Target is a publicly traded corporation; don’t they have to answer to a Board?

      2. Is it true?

      3. Do I have to stop shopping at Target?

      4. If so, where will I shop? Wal-Mart is out because of the morning after pill issue and the censorship issue.

      HELP.

      • PollyD

        Hmm, quick googling did not turn anything up. I guess I figure almost all large corporations skew more rightward than I would like, but one has to buy one’s toilet paper somewhere. I try to offset it with donations to political candidates who support things I value. Because I live in a state that’s pretty dark blue, I’ll send money to candidates in other states who might be facing a tougher race.

        I just can’t seem to quit Target, though.

      • Anonymous

        Target has had some questionable donations, but they’re nowhere near walmart. They give money to a “pro-business” PAC, which gives money occasionally to anti-gay and anti-choice candidates. We’re talking about a few hundred thousand total, I believe, rather than a systemic effort to combat gay/women’s/union/etc rights (like walmart does)

        • Hel-lo

          Target also donates a crapload of money to local charities in the areas of their stores. I was a recipient of a $500 Target college scholarship.

        • karenpadi

          My understanding is that Target participates in a Christian program where customers can donate some percentage of their purchases to a particular charity. Some of the charities are anti-gay and/or anti-choice. Focus on the Family and the Family Research Council are participants.

          So many big box retailers and other companies participate in these programs that they are really really hard to avoid.

      • MN prof

        Target got a lot of flack last year for donating money to a political candidate (for MN governor) who was very antichoice. They were targeted (!) by a some groups who were upset about the antichoice aspect, at least in part because Target is actually usually a pretty socially responsible corporation and the groups thought they might be more responsive to the complaint than many other corporations also donating to the same candidate.

        I’m with you on concerns, and even jumped onto the Target boycott for a couple of months, but after looking into more last year, I found there was not anything to the story that I felt ethically impelled me to stay away from Target.

      • Laura #2

        Here’s Bloomberg Businessweek’s description of what happened: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_33/b4191032682244.htm

        And NPR: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/08/04/128974389/mad-about-corporate-political-donations-customers-boycott-target-best-buy

        Anonymous at 6:50 was right–this all came about due to a $250,000 donation to MN Forward, a pro-business PAC, prior to the 2010 elections. I’m not sure if there have been any other questionable donations. Hope this helps!

      • EM

        If my brother-in-law, formerly employed by the Minnesota Democratic-Farm-Labor party, accepted a job at Target Corporate HQ, then I feel comfortable shopping there. He is quite liberal. I don’t think my sister would have married any differently. :) <3

  25. Colored Suits?

    Can we talk about colored suits again? Kat covered this ages ago, but I wonder about this specific suit. The prior discussion seemed to conclude that ‘women of a certain age’ could wear high quality colored suits, but that younger women couldn’t really pull it off (although I recall that this varies regionally and colored suits are common among women of all ages in the south — I’m in Pittsburgh).

    I bought this today:
    http://www.lafayette148ny.com/store/-strse-9789/Detail

    (although not at that price) along with the matching pencil skirt that I cannot find a picture of online for the life of me.

    Both pieces are gorgeous, and I will definitely wear them separately no matter what.
    However, I bought with the intention of also wearing as a suit (probably not a court suit, but possibly for meetings, depos, etc). For some reason, this color seems different than a red suit (which I read: politician or BFD senior female) or a powder blue suit (which I read: ladies who lunch or granny), and I think it’s perfectly fine for someone of my age/position. Hivemind, do you agree? Or have I just gone off the fashion deep end?

    By way of background I’m a mid-level associate in BigLaw. I look best in jewel tones, this deep purple is very flattering on me, and I’m 30.

  26. MaggieLizer

    Thanks to everyone for their advice on taking depositions. I had my first one today and it went well; I got exactly the evidence I needed. Thanks especially for the advice on not saying “OK” too much and being comfortable with silence.

  27. Anon

    Here’s some info: http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/08/05/Target_CEO_Sorry_for_150K_Donation/

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/27/target-homophobia-ceo-gre_n_660990.html

    some other interesting issue with Target: http://gawker.com/Target/

    I loved Target, but I haven’t been there since this came out. I’ve actually never been to a Walmart for the same reasons you state as well as the terrible way they treat their staff (low wages, no health insurance, etc) The fact that people who work here full-time still qualify for public assistance programs due to their low salary just baffles me. http://www.walmartmovie.com/facts.php

  28. 1L

    Hey everyone,

    I just started law school and am emotionally eating like crazy. I’m stressed about friends, marks, being away from my family, being single – absolutely everything. I know there are a lot of lawyers here, so let me ask: did anyone have anxiety and/or depression in law school? How did you cope?

    • Anon

      anti-depressants. Stilled gained 15 lbs.

      You might want someone else’s advice?

      • 1L

        Ha, thanks. I appreciate the advice, but I’m trying to stay med-free for now.

    • SFC

      Yes, big time. I almost quit after my first month. I vented to my very supportive boyfriend at the time who put things into perspective and to law school friends who, to my surprise, didn’t feel so differently. Also watched trashy tv at the end of the day which was great since it was mindless. I worked out every day (endorphins) so that I felt physically great despite feeling intellectually overmatched/worn out some days. 1L is hard but it will fly by and in retrospect you will realize it was all in your head.

      • SFC

        Also want to note that there your law school probably has a therapist. Go see him/her. I’m sure the therapist has seen many, many depressed law students and will be helpful.

      • Yes

        The first month of law school I was an emotional wreck — not understanding things immediately (my previous academic experience) and doubting myself. My then-husband sat me down and literally yelled at me. I still remember where I was sitting, where he was standing, what his voice sounded like etc. He said, essentially, that he had fallen in love with me because I was so intelligent and driven and confident and if I was going to fall apart so easily just because there were some (it later turns out to be assholish guys in my class) who SEEMED — key word, you will never know — to be doing better than I, then I was not the woman he married. He may have had a lot of faults (and in fairness, so do I), but he was dead on with this one. He scared me straight and I went on to graduate Coif and Law Review.

        Yes, I gained some weight along the way. That was not nearly as big a problem for me as my skin, which exploded in a way it never had in my life. I was 26-29 in law school, and I had a terrible case of adult acne. The week of graduation, I went to N-M to get some lipstick and the woman who helped me said, “What happened to your face?” Um, three years of law school, what’s your excuse for being so rude.

        Here’s some good news that may help you: while I was studying for the bar, I had a strict rule that I could spend my time doing any one of the following, but ONLY the following: studying, eating, bathing, exercising or sleeping. Best shape of my life. I hate running, and I ran every day that summer :)

        • 1L

          Fantastic advice. I especially like the last part, but it seems impossible to not add “cleaning” and “reading magazines” and, well, all the other things I have to do to keep myself sane.

    • Lawyer

      Absolutely. 1L year sucks balls. It might be the worst experience of your life so far.

      …Did no one tell you that?

      • 1L

        It’s weirdly the worst and best experience I’ve had at the same time. I’m learning a lot about myself, that’s for sure. I guess in a weird way, because of this, I’m happy to be single. (I’m 21).

        Side note: I can’t believe how many of my classmates (also 21-23) are in long term, practically engaged relationships – we’re talking 3-4 years. I feel like such a n00b sometimes, haha.

        • kmm

          This killed me in law school because many of my classmates were a few years older than me and married. I had just moved away from my boyfriend (who is now my fiance) and thought I was nowhere in life because these people had spouses and homes and lives and all I had was my tiny little apartment.

          Hang in there!

      • Alanna of Trebond

        I don’t want to diminish or discount others’ experiences, but Lawyer @ 8:29’s sentiment sounds hyperbolic. “The worst experience of your life so far.”? Really? It is not that bad.

        1L is something that is a bit different from college. The first month particularly is a bit of change from how you might have worked as a college student. Just do your work, work hard and have fun. Anxiety often comes from hanging out with other law students — so I might recommend keeping your non-law school friends close at hand.

        I do think that law students become very self-centered during law school by talking only to other law students (I did this) and this only makes everything in law school seem much more important than it really is. And yes, to echo others — 2L is even easier and 3L is basically like sleeping.

    • Adele

      Law school is stressful. Especially in the first year when you realize just how much harder it is than college.
      I don’t mean for this to come off snarky, but start exercising. It’s a terrific stress release, and even when you think you have no time, you’ll actually feel better & have more energy if you exercise.
      Find what works for you – gym, spin class, jogging, yoga, and just do it.

    • Anonymous

      I took up triathlon training. It was so nice to escape campus to meet up with non-law students who were intense about something much more fun. On the weekends I’d swing by the law school after a run and swim workout to swap books and do the rest of my reading for Monday from home, and I’d pity the people who looked like they’d been there all morning and weren’t leaving until late evening (ha, I’m sure you know that “camped out” look by now). I spent about 1/3 of the time reading and studying as my classmates, and ended up somewhere in the top 5-10%. I’d attribute a lot of this to being less anxious during finals (I did a race in the middle of finals as “stress relief”), and having developed more efficient study habits due to the time demands of training. The added bonus is that I could eat a box of cookies after a bad day and not feel *too* guilty about it because I knew I’d work off the calories in no time! But if that sounds like too much or you’re in the 80% of the country where it’s too cold for triathlon right now, there are lots of “projects” I can think of–book club, Bible study if you’re so inclined, becoming a mentor to a teenager, etc. Anything that gets you interaction with people outside the law school. It’s an anxiety-amplifying bubble, and it’s really important to make sure you pop out of it every so often.

      Of course the caveat to my strategy is that now that I’m working, I’m struggling to deal with having to put in hours that I never approached in law school even during finals. I guess it’s karma for having too much fun in law school ;)

    • lawtalkinggirl

      I had undiagnosed depression in law school. I lost weight due to not eating and periodically subsisting on cans of Squirt. Four years after graduating I am still trying to figure out how to cope. I wish I had started anti-depressants on day 1.

    • Blonde Lawyer

      A LS friend had her first panic attack in the middle of civ pro her 1L year. she didn’t know what was happening (since she had never had a p/a before) and got up and left class. The registrars office was right outside and the registrar came over and asked her what was wrong. When she explained the symptoms she was having the registrar called 911 and she was sent to the hospital in an ambulance. She had to wear a holter monitor for a week and all that fun stuff. Turned out it was just some brand new anxiety thanks to law school.

      • cbackson

        This exact thing happened to me. I took myself to the emergency room, thinking I was having a heart attack. Turned out to be law school-induced panic.

    • Sara

      honestly, you might evualuate your career path. law school is nothing compared to the stresses you may have practicing and it isn’t a happy path for many people- there’s nothing wrong with changing course. I left the law after several years and am much happier. but i actually enjoyed law school (also moved away, to city where i knew no one and was single).

    • anon for this

      I worked in law firms for a number of years before law school (and now for some years post-law school), and have dealt with many extremely stressful situations while doing so. However, I found law school to be the single most stressful, difficult environment I’ve faced in my life. The pressure to be amazingly smart whenever a professor randomly calls on you in class, the huge amount of work you have to do, the difficulty in synthesizing all of the information you’re amassing, the worry about exams, and the overall constant competitiveness did a huge number on me. By the end of the first semester I was on antidepressants and seeing a therapist every week. I gained tons of weight in law school, ate everything in sight and never exercised, and didn’t really allow myself to have a life because I was constantly terrified that I might fall even further behind and lose what little grip I felt I had.

      If I had it to do again I would do several things differently: (1) Maintain a regular exercise program, no matter what – sign up for a class, join a running group – whatever it takes to make sure you’re going all the time. It would have done a lot toward saving my sanity, and I wouldn’t have been so horrified when I finally stepped on the scale after graduation. (2) Have a life outside of law school. If you have to block out time in your schedule to make this happen, do it. You have to get away from it from time to time, and be with normal people who are not law students! (3) Realize that law school isn’t real life – it’s a weird, artificial, contrived situation. I performed dismally in law school, for the most part (although I did really well in the parts that actually resembled law practice, like moot court and writing papers). But in real life, I’m very good at my job. For me, at least, there has been very little correlation between law school experience and performance and real-life experience and performance.

      I hope this helps. Hang in there – you will get through it. First year is by far the worst. Second and third years are a cakewalk compared to first year – you’ll feel more established, you’ll feel a sense of accomplishment after having finished your first year, plus you’ll have an opportunity to get involved in different organizations, journals, competitive moot court, being a TA, etc., and get internships and even paid work. I do advocate seeing a therapist – my law school’s health services office referred me to a psychiatrist who was used to dealing with neurotic, stressed-out law students, and he put me on a regimen of medication and weekly talk-therapy appointments that really helped.

      And continue to use Corporette as a resource – you can post here and get comfort and perspective from people who have been there. I wish you the best of luck!!

      • 1L

        Thank you, thank you, thank you. You have no idea how much it helps to hear from someone that’s already been through this kind of hell.

    • Lawyer Bird

      I had panic attacks in law school. Haven’t had a single one since, and my career has put me in some physically dangerous situations that are much more intense than anything I did in law school. I also suffer from clinical depression, which was diagnosed after I became a lawyer but surely existed beforehand. I manage it mostly successfully without medication.

      Law school has a weird, very intense pressure. It is normal to feel anxiety and depression. In many ways, this prepares you to be a lawyer; no matter what your practice is, your workload and stress level will make 1L seem like child’s play (the fear of failure you have as a 1L disappears, though, which takes a lot of the pressure off). So, the first step is to acknowledge that you are normal, that your classmates feel the same thing too, and that you will learn to adjust and you will be ok.

      Second step is to acknowledge that it is okay to have a life outside of law school, and that you will not fail if you take personal time for yourself. Schedule at least one half-day per week when anything related to law school is taboo, plus at least one hour per day that you will spend on leisure activities without doing anything related to law school.

      Third step is the trifecta of mental stability: sleep, exercise, and healthy eating. Instead of setting strict goals (and then stressing out about them), aim to for the 80/20 rule: 8 days out of 10, get 8 hours of sleep and work out for at least 30 min. Try to get 80% of your diet from healthy food. If you have a bad day where you don’t get enough sleep and you eat a lot of french fries, count that as your 20% day and get back on track for the next 4 days.

      You can do it.

      • 1L

        “Second step is to acknowledge that it is okay to have a life outside of law school, and that you will not fail if you take personal time for yourself.”

        This has actually been my saving grace. I have to balance between taking time for myself – and not taking so much time that it interferes with my work. I think the fact that I’m really young, trying to balance such an intense workload, contributes – I’m still figuring it all out, and I have to acknowledge that and not compare myself to other people who “seem to have it all figured out.”

        • UnderAchieving Chick

          And while you’re taking time off doing fun stuff, IGNORE your classmates who are all agog that you have time in your schedule to not study or stress out about studying. I once let someone eat away at my self-confidence because I went for a hike instead of participating in moot court, and I will never get those 15 minutes back.

    • Miriam

      It’s your first semester and finals are coming up. I would be surprised if you didn’t feel like this! As long as you are keeping up with the work, outlining, and talking to the professor if you have questions you will be fine. I actually found 1L to be the easiest! I transferred and lost my entire support system in law school. If possible, find some law students who feel the same as you and help each other get through it. Not sure if that is possible for you, but it made a world of a difference for me.

    • KK

      Exercise! It helps your mind and your body. Also, make friends with people in your class because they are going through the same thing and venting is good for the soul. See if you can find some girls in your section who are willing to do a spinning or zumba class once a week- on activity that will take care of exercise + bonding.

      1L was stressful, but I think I dealt with it much better than most people (and still graduated top 5%). My keys to success:

      (1) Have blinders on, academically- don’t talk about grades with anyone in your class and don’t let yourself think about other people’s grades, at all. It’s hard, but it really helps. The only grades you can control are your own.

      (2) Have non-law school friends. It seems like you are away from home, so try to get involved in groups and things with the wider university and not just the law school. Get roommates who are in other grad schools, if possible. Friends in other grad schools are the best because they understand your academic focus and need to study, but they have nothing to do with the law. If your parents/siblings aren’t lawyers, make an extra special effort to keep in touch with them. It helps keep everything in the proper perspective and helps you remember that you are a real person, not just a law student.

      (3) Don’t get bogged down in crap that doesn’t matter. For instance, my worst grades in law school were in classes that were worth 1-2 credits. This was deliberate. You only have X amount of effort, so allocate according to what the grade will be worth. If you have to blow off something, blow off the class worth the least credits and/or the assignment worth the least points. It’s not always possible to give 110% percent on everything all of the time. My more Type A classmates had difficulty accepting this and spent a lot of time stressing over stuff that didn’t matter.

      (4) Finally, have a short memory. If you look like an idiot when you are called on or you do poorly on something, feel bad for a day, think of what you’ll do differently next time, and then let it go. You have to move forward.

    • kmm

      I had depression when I entered law school. It did not get better.

      Take time for yourself every day and exercise – not necessarily crazy-style or to lose weight, but spend 20-30 minute moving your body every day and eat enough fruit and veggies.

      Also, when people ask you to do stuff: go. I wish I could go back and do law school over because I spent so many weekends sitting alone in my apartment that could have been spent having fun with friends.

      • Suited Up

        There isn’t much I can add to all of this sound advice, but I can commiserate. I’m a 2L now, and made it through 1L pretty much unscathed, but only because I had a terrible experience in another grad program (I entered right out of undergrad.)

        I was so stressed out that year that I couldn’t sleep, had panic attacks, and eventually had a nervous break-down. I ended up on X*anx and Z*loft for about 8 months. It wasn’t until about 5 months after my program finished and I had started working that I realized 1) I didn’t need the meds anymore 2) I had not been taking care of myself at all and this is what led to the breakdown 3) that my performance in the grad program had virtually no impact on my job performance (teaching.) I taught for a few years and came to law school.

        During 1L I used my prior experience to make sure I was taking care of myself (including all the advice above- regular sleep schedule, regular (light) exercise, as much healthy eating as possible, avoiding the classmate drama as much as possible, ect…) I even went so far as to delete my FB page at the beginning of 2nd semester- best move ever for my grades and my sanity :).

        Bottom line, you will make it through not matter what, but you will come out no worse for wear if you try to implement the advice you’ve been given :) Good luck!

    • L

      Talk to either a couselor or a dean of student affairs at your law school (who can direct you to the most appropriate school resources). I felt the same way you did! totally lost, terrible anxiety and depression. Mine was so severe that I had to go on meds, but even just talking to someone helped! Especially someone in the law school. You will not be the first to go in there. I spent not insignificant time crying in the dean’s office telling her I would never make it as a lawyer! Turns out, now I’m a professor at my law school!

      This will pass. But reach out. People are happy to help. Also, just remember, your tuition is funding these resources. Take advantage!

    • ML

      Hi 1L,

      I’m late to this and see that you’ve already received a lot of good comments, but just wanted to add that you are definitely, definitely not alone! As you can see from the comments, this is such a common experience. The crazy thing is that even though my wonderfully supportive husband told me that “everyone else is freaking out too!” I never believed him until the first semester was over. You see those people walking around bragginb about this and that, and you think that everyone else understood the rule against perpetuities the first time they encountered it, and you are the only moron. Trust me, you’re not.

      I agree with all the advice here…get enough sleep, exercise, try to limit your caffeine/alcohol, and try to make friends, either in or out of law school. Having “outside” friends really helps your perspective, but having the right kind of lawschool friends is invaluable…it helps you feel like you’re not alone, and you realize that hey, everyone else is struggling too. Also, I would try taking a yoga class, writing in a journal, reading novels or whatever helps you to relax. You’ll get through this, don’t worry! Think how great you’ll feel when all those finals are done and you’re going home for the holidays, or whatever. :)

      • ML

        Also, I’ll just add that yes, most everyone else is struggling in some way, and that this can contribute to a very anxious environment. I thought it was all in my head and that something was wrong with me– in hindsight, i realize that everyone else was stressed/anxious/depressed/struggling with a new environment, etc., and that this brought a lot of weird behaviors. I say this because one of the things I struggled with first semester was connecting to other lawstudents. I felt like they were hard to relate to. I think part of that is that we were all going through a tough time, and so people (including me) weren’t neccesarily their “best” self. This hopefully will change a bit second semester. Good luck!

  29. cfm

    Hello! I’ve moved in with the BF and this will be our first Christmas together. Any suggestions on where to get nice stockings? I’d like to do something nicer than those red felt ones. Also any suggestions on a particular artificial tree? On a budget so cheaper is always better.

    • Anonymous

      Pottery Barn and Garnet Hill both have nice stockings. Crate & Barrel, too.

    • Anonymous

      Pottery Barn has some really pretty ones that you can get monogrammed with your name or initials. I just checked the holiday catalog and it looks like they’re about $15-20/ea, plus $7 for monogramming.

    • Bunkster

      I also checked this out because your post reminded me that we have a new baby in the family and our stockings are the knit kind. Target has some for $13. And Garnet Hill has some beautiful ones for $75, which is out of my price range. Amazon has a beautiful set of 6 for $54, but I don’t need six and it sounds like you don’t either.

    • Fiona

      Call me crazy, but I love Target’s 24″ fiber optic Christmas tree. It’s a little artificial tree that you can put in a windowsill or on top of a table. It’s perfect for setting the Christmas mood in a city apartment — I love turning on the lights and making some hot toddies on a cold night. They sell it in their stores but I can’t find it online. I think it retails for about $40.

    • Sweet as Soda Pop

      Etsy – Love Elaine makes AWESOME stockings! She made the ones for my boyfriend and me last year, and when we got a dog this year, I got a matching one for the dog too!

    • EM

      Cost Plus World Market is my favorite place for holiday accessories and decorations. I like the ethnic boho vibe a lot of their stuff has, and much of it is similar in style to stuff at PB and Crate and Barrel, but much cheaper. :)

  30. MeliaraofTlanth

    Follow up on a question from last week: I was going to a black-tie event and had borrowed a dress from a friend (this dress: http://www1.bloomingdales.com/shop/product/lauren-by-ralph-lauren-dress-sequin-dress?ID=544757) I now have another similar event to go to and need to just suck it up and buy my own dress instead of continuing to borrow my friend’s, because apparently my work goes to a lot of these things. I don’t want to buy a long gown because they seem a bit over the top (people were wearing them, but no one from my work I went with). So–what elevates a knee-length dress from somewhat dressy to super dressy? Everything I see either seems to be super short and all-over sequiny, or too plain looking. Help. (I need a personal shopper. And no, I sadly do not wear a size 6, otherwise I would just buy that dress I’m borrowing from my friend)

    • mamabear

      I used to go to at least two black tie events a year – I miss those days! – and I had quite the assortment of formalwear separates. Yes, separates. I liked the ease of mixing and matching. I had two skirts, both black satin. One was knee length and one was floor length. The knee length was a pencil style and the floor length was sort of a modified trumpet shape (not super tight through the hips, but it did flare at the hem.) I wore these with an assortment of little jackets, beaded, sequined, velvet. I loved my looks and got a lot of mileage out of them.

      So what elevates a knee-length look to super dressy? Satin, velvet or shantung silk. Sequins, beads or crystal adornment. Major jewelry (pick major earrings or major necklace – not both.)

      I also happen to like the high-low thing – a really fancy skirt with a basic cashmere sweater, for instance. It depends on the occasion. One friend of mine wore a tailored ivory satin blouse with a full moire taffeta floor length skirt to one of our events, and everyone is still talking about her outfit. She looked amazing. Another look I like is a super fancy all-over sequined just above the knee dress worn with black opaque tights. It gives sort of an, “Oh, this old thing?” vibe, which I love.

      I hope this gives you some ideas. And by the way, outlet shopping and black tie are a match made in heaven. You can find some really good deals on superfancy duds out there.

      • Anonymous

        This 100%.
        Also, if you’re going to be photographed teal and other jewel-tones show up very nicely on camera.
        Teal pash + matching chunky bracelet = good.
        Matching earrings and bracelet also = good.

      • Bunkster

        I also used to go to a lot of black tie events. My best friend was the chair of a charity. I had 3 go-to outfits. I purchased all of them at Filene’s Basement. I’m in Boston. FB is (or was!) amazing here.

        My first outfit was a floor-length matte black jersey strapless dress. It retailed for $1400, but I got it for $74. My second was a floor-length red charmeuse Carmen Marc Valvo skirt (oops, just remember I got it at Saks). I used to wear it with a cashmere halter (just like mamabear suggested). And my last outfit is a knee-length strapless black dress with sequins on strings – very flapper-esque (it is too a word!). I still wear that one.

        So basically I’m agreeing with mamabear.

    • Anonymous

      I agree with mamabear’s suggestion of a fancy short jacket. You can get away with a much more simple dress if you have a statement piece.

    • Anon

      This is so timely b/c I was about to post and ask if a knee length dress was ok to wear to a black tie event! BecauseI’m short, I feel like floor length would be odd looking on me. I have this strapless knee length dress that has a lot of embellishment; however, our client will also be attending the event. So thoughts on knee length, strapless dresses to a black tie event with clients? Something like this http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/ml-monique-lhuillier-bridesmaids-strapless-dress-nordstrom-exclusive/3207818?origin=category&resultback=5839. Or should I go with full length with sleeves?

    • Lawyer Bird

      I would say to get a relatively simple dress, and get several sets of accessories. I like a satin or sequined sheath dress. Talbots and Ann Taylor are my go-to places, and WHBM also often has good selection.

      I mix it up with different shoes, usually in a metallic shade, different wraps, and different hair accessories or headpieces. You can wear the same dress over and over again and really make it look different with accessories. Chandelier earrings also have an instant dressy effect on an otherwise plain outfit IMO.

    • Bunkster

      I just got back from TJMaxx. They had some beautiful dressy Tahari items. Specifically, there was a gorgeous, long-sleeved sequined knee-length dress. They also had black velvet blazers.

    • mamabear

      To OP – RueLaLa has a section of c*cktail dresses today. Many are $99.

  31. Anonymous

    Any words of wisdom?
    My BigFirm had a section meeting featuring activities such as throwing a ball and calling out your biggest weakness, sitting in a circle and thanking coworkers for sharing feelings with them… you get the idea.
    Everyone, male and female (except me) was crying and emotional at the end of the session. I was in shock at the level of NUTS.
    Making it worse, one of the admins called me up to the front for not sharing enough in the session (she’s The Worst Gossip Ever).
    As with most BigFirms, the money is amazing and I’d like to keep working there… but they are nuts.
    Any words of wisdom on what to say Monday when we’re all back? And how to survive in this place?

    • Anonymous

      Start leaving around info that suggests you are an introvert. The Care and Keeping of Your Introvert, Why Should Extroverts Make All the Money?, that sort of thing. Let the admin who is the Worst Gossip Ever know that you appreciated her calling you out, because you’re an introvert and have trouble expressing personal feelings (rather than those on behalf of your job). Say you know your introversion helps you with your job, and extroversion stresses you out and makes you bad at your job. She’ll let everybody know not to emotionally burden you (that’s what gossips are for!).

      Then find another cynic in your department to get drinks with. Or keep notes on your personal computer to write a novel with someday. Good luck!

      • CB

        Aah! My head just exploded. We had to do a “cross the line” activity at a student retreat and I nearly had a panic attack. I barely share my feelings with my friends and family- why should I have to share them with people I barely know?

      • Best way to use a gossip

        This!

        When I was a first year in BigLaw, a number of partners in my firm starting asking questions about when my then-husband and I were going to start having kids. After this happened a half dozen times, I waited until the biggest gossip in the office, a senior associate who was known for sharing everything with everyone and especially with partners, asked me. I “confessed” to him that my husband and I couldn’t have kids. A big fat lie. Or the truth, because we were using two forms of birth control. Take your pick. I worked there for nine more years, and no one ever asked me about kids again.

    • Bunkster

      OMG, that’s my worst nightmare. If we worked together, we could huddle in a corner and mock it. And then have drinks afterwards.

    • another anon

      Holy crap that would have made me so uncomfortable that I would have done nearly anything to get out of it. Like pretend I had diarrhea and run out of the room holding my stomach and hide in the bathroom for a few hours. Seriously, just reading your description is making me feel a little panicky. I do not understand people who like that sort of thing. I don’t really have any advice as to how to deal with it on Monday, but I just wanted to let you know that your feelings are totally reasonable.

    • Anonymous

      OP here,
      Thanks so much for the great advice and wonderful replies. This really helps, you’ve no idea!
      What people have to go through now to make a living just amazes me…

    • Jas

      That sounds like my idea of a nightmare! I hate sharing stuff like that with even my friends, let alone coworkers. To be honest, I’d probably just make things up for the stupid little games.

    • Z

      Ugh, we had a firm retreat that involved a ropes course. It was 95 degrees outside. It was weird enough to see everyone in shorts and t-shirts — even weirder to have to hang on for dear life to a sweaty partner that I hated.

      Nevermind the crying/breaking down about being passed over for partner/drunken inappropriateness that happened after dinner.

  32. Anonymous

    I am a full-time attorney and I work with a part-time attorney who spends much time at work talking about and dealing with activies her children are involved in, and works her schedule around these activities. I don’t see how she can get any quality work done under this arrangement. It also interferes with the work of others. Does anyone have any thoughts/comments on whether these kinds of special arrangements should be allowed?

    • Anonymous

      Doesn’t matter if it should be, that fact is it’s allowed. The only thing you can do is deal with it.

    • Pam

      Are you part time attorney’s boss? If not, I have trouble seeing how it’s really any of your business. Except for the “interferes with the work of others” part, if that’s *really* the case then I suppose there may be some legitimacy to colleagues having an opinion on the matter. That said, in my experience, “interferes with the work of others” is code for “I feel like part time attorney is a slacker” (your comment “I don’t see how she can get any quality work done” is a big red flag for me) and in that case again, I say none of your business.

      FWIW, I’m a full time attorney who works with part time attorneys that fit your description. But I’m not their boss, I don’t pay their salary and – and this is key – I’m not having to pick up any slack or anything like that. I admit to being a little jealous of the arrangement they’ve worked out but that’s my problem not theirs. YMMV.

    • Cat

      I’m not sure I understand the situation. Is it that the part-time attorney actually spends closer to a “full-time” amount of time in the office, but therefore takes frequent breaks to deal with child-related things? Or that despite the reduced hours, it seems like “part-time” has shifted to “almost no time”?

      Re: the impacting everyone else…I think the need for attorneys to bend to clients’ schedules, and the general inability for an attorney’s day to consistently fit within predictable hours, make it very hard to go truly “part time.” When you’re working as part of a team at a firm, unless you are senior/the one with the book, I don’t think it’s appropriate to require everyone else to reschedule just because you need to drop off little Emma at music lessons.

      • Cat

        And I realize views like this are what makes it difficult for people to find balance at firms. (FWIW, I’m a mid-level with no kids.) I think it’s just the nature of being in a service industry and wanting to maintain good relationships with the client. I suspect that’s why the people I know who are “part-time” really just take off Fridays and are available by email from home – minimal interference with the day to day client demands the rest of the week.

        • Anonymous

          Hi. I am the original poster. You are all very perceptive in your comments. I don’t want to provide too many details to protect privacy. One issue is how much personal life should bleed into the office, and how to set the boundaries with co-workers if people are on totally different tracks.

    • another anon

      Could it be that she is working from home some? It may be that there are kid-related things that she has to deal with at work, but then maybe she does work at home when the kids are napping or whatever. Unless you are her boss, which it doesn’t sound like you are, you can’t really know how much work she is getting done and what her billables are. Now, if you are working on a project with her and she’s not pulling her weight, that’s another issue entirely, but it’s not clear to me what you mean by “interferes with the work of others.”

    • EM

      I’m on the other side of this coin. I work part time as a consultant, and yeah, other people have had to cover for me when some emergency comes up and I couldn’t be there because I was picking up my child from school. This was the arrangement agreed upon by my boss and myself when I hired on. I know that some people would love to work part time, so there may be some jealousy and resentment on their part. Not my problem. The bottom line is I do very good work (I know because I get positive reviews and my boss has trusted me with some work for an important client that she herself was unavailable to do) and I do what needs to be done to get the job done (like working from home in the evenings or coming in to the office crazy early to work a deadline).

      And not to sound harsh, but just because you can’t “see how she can get any quality work done” speaks more about you than it does her. Does she get quality work done or not? If so, she’s obviously managing it, whether or not you can fathom how she does it. If your concern is that you are having trouble working with her because of her schedule, talk to her and express exactly what your concerns are (I’m worried about X project because when I needed to ask you a question on Y, you weren’t in the office) or something like that. Chances are she’ll have a system to handle issues you may have.

      I didn’t mean to sound snarky or defensive; it’s a really hard juggle to work part time and be a parent. It’s actually more challenging than working full time because I have to be a ninja scheduler and time-budgeter. What makes it work in my office is that I work hard and my coworkers are understanding.

    • Anonymous

      Coming to this late but wanted to add my 0.02.

      I work slightly reduced hours in the office, and I’m putting in the time at night and on weekends that bring up my hours to “full time”. I am deeply appreciative that my company allows me to do this and aware that many would like this same arrangement. I am allowed to do it because my clients are happy and my manager (and his manager) is happy. It’s not really anyone else’s business since my book of work is exceeding expectations.

      That said, I go WAY out of my way to keep my children out of the conversation. I don’t talk about their activities, their schedules, etc. I don’t want to convey the message that I’m not doing everything I am paid to do. And I stick to my schedule — I don’t rearrange it to meet their activities. So maybe your part-time co-worker needs to be more discreet about her kids schedules. But if she’s getting her work done and available when she needs to be (and that’s for her manager and other attorneys she works with to judge, right?), then I don’t see the problem.

  33. Anon for this

    Good evening ladies,

    I’m in the midst of a personal crisis and I could really use some help from the hive mind.

    I recently graduated from law school and started articling at a biglaw firm in a Canadian city. It’s been a hectic first few months (I started in June) but I love the work I’m doing and the people I work with, and I think that I could see myself staying at the firm long-term once I’m called to the bar.

    I’m dating a great guy that is currently finishing law school in the same city. We ‘ve been together for just over 2 years and we’ve been living together for over a year now. The problem is that I work long hours at my job (12-14 hour days) and we don’t really see each other very much–even though we sleep in the same bed every night. I would love to be a partner or a judge some day and I’m prepared to put in the necessary sweat equity. I love my boyfriend, but I’m finding myself feeling less and less happy in our relationship because he isn’t very supportive of my work (and the necessity for me to work long hours). He recently told me that he doesn’t see himself staying in the relationship if my work hours are still this way next year.

    Part of me wants to stay in the relationship and see if my hours (and subsequently our relationship) improve once I’m an associate, because as I said before, I really love him and I would like to have a future with him. However, there’s another part of me that wants to get out of the relationship. I think I deserve to be with someone that supports my professional goals, and doesn’t make me feel like o have to be apologetic for being ambitious and wanting to work hard. If I ever decide to leave biglaw I want to make that decision because it’s right for me, and not because someone is forcing me to make that choice. I also have considerable debt from law school, and it’s in my best interest to have a high salary for the next few years at least so that I can make a sizable dent in my debt.

    I don’t want my job to take over my life, but at the same time I want to have a high-paced career and I want to be with someone who supports me and will be my cheerleader.

    Full disclosure: I recently cheated (or at least I consider it cheating) on my boyfriend by making out with someone else – from work. I know that eating where one sh*ts is not a good idea. It was definitely a lapse in professional judgment (blame it on the alcohol?), and I don’t want it to happen again. I feel really badly about cheating on my boyfriend (I haven’t told him).

    • Anonymous

      I think you know what the answer here is. You’re young, I’m guessing, if you’re a new lawyer and he’s still in law school. You never see each other. His life does not work with your professional goals. In a moment of drunken confusion, you kissed someone else.

      As Dan Savage would say, DTMFA. Seriously, break up with him, find someone who is more on the level you’re looking for. If you have to ask, you already know.

        • M-C

          Get out. Get out now before it gets worse.
          You especially don’t want to be living in this kind of arrangement, so start looking for an appartment immediately.
          And stop making out with the coworkers as a passive-aggressive thing, not to mention stop drinking enough at work to make this even possible (excellent articles on that topic elsewhere on this site).
          Hang in there, it’ll get better as soon as you’re back to your own self, goals, and sanity.

    • Miriam

      I think you owe it to him to end things. You never see him AND you cheated on him with a colleague! It seems that never spending time with each other has created distance between you two and if you continue to try to make it work it can only get worse. One of you may cheat again or even sleep with someone else. Don’t blame it on the alcohol. You were sober before you started drinking with this male colleague. On some level I’m sure you knew this was a possibility. Don’t put yourself in compromising positions! You know your boyfriend doesn’t want the life that you want and honestly, you have to make a decision about what comes first, career or personal life. People can’t have it both ways unless both partners have the same career demands and want the same thing out of the relationship. You say that you love him and I’m sure you do, but it could also be just a level of comfort. If you really wanted to be with him you would be more inclined to put the relationship ahead of your career and you wouldn’t put yourself in the position to cheat. You’re both better off ending the relationship.

    • cfm

      To be honest, I feel a little bad for your boyfriend! You say you want someone who supports your professional goals, but it doesn’t sound like he doesn’t support your goals, but does want you to put more time into the relationship, which I think is completely valid. Also you are working 12-14 hour days but have time to go drinking with work? I mean, come on. You want out, so just get out, and find someone who works similar hours to you. (How that leaves time for a fulfilling relationship, I don’t know, but this one isn’t fulfilling you anyway.)

      • Anon for this

        Thanks for your comment cfm. Just to provide a bit more information (not that it justifies anything that I did), but the incident with my co-worker happened at a mandatory firm retreat in another city.

        • cfm

          Well that negates the point about going out when you couldve been home, but still, I think it is time to end this relationship. It sounds like you have different ideas about how much time you should devote to the relationship. For some people (male and female) work is more important, for some relationships more important, for some closer to 50/50 and those change depending on your age and other factors. Right now you are finding work more important, and it sounds like you are not willing to sacrifice anything for the relationship (which is fine, just be honest about it, because if your not you’ll end up resenting him anyway.) I think cheating is a big sign your out mentally.

    • Adara

      I’m not in law or anything so I can’t comment from that angle specifically, and I’m not going to address the “cheating” either (although I don’t really consider this cheating, just a slightly dumb, probably symbolic slip-up), but I think your man’s attitude sucks. You seem to know it already, too. He sucks. Your ideal man (presumably) might complain a little about not getting a lot of your time, but would overall be supportive of your choices because being with you is worth the waiting and inconveniences, etc. Ideal Man wouldn’t be giving you passive-aggressive ultimatums/threats like “I sure do hope you work fewer hours in 2012 or I’m outta here!”

      • non

        Having been on the guy’s side of the equation (boyfriend worked mondo hours), I wouldn’t say his attitude sucks. I’d say he’s being honest about how much time he wants to spend with his relationship partner. I’ll agree he doesn’t sound like the Ideal Guy for the OP, but I’d say he’s spot on in saying something about what he wants in a relationship.

      • Prentis

        I dont think he sucks- he wants something different than the OP wants. I don’t think the relationship will work anyway though.

        • Adara

          Yeah, non & Prentis, that’s what I was trying to say in my hastily-typed comment. In terms of being what she needs, he sucks. He might be great for someone else!

    • Jas

      I’m not in law, so this could be wrong, but wouldn’t making partner or judge or other such goals require working hours like that for more than a year or two? I don’t think it matters if he’s right, or if he’s a jerk, or if you cheated. There’s nothing wrong with your intended career path, and there’s nothing wrong with wanting a girlfriend you can do activities with but the two are not compatible. You two have conflicting life goals, and therefore you’re not going to work as a couple. Break it off, and then work the hours you want without guilt.

    • Anonymous

      I don’t think you should be with anyone who doesn’t support you, but it may not be just that. Did he used to support you? Does he know your ambitions to be a judge/partner? Has he said things that suggest he wants you to take the mommy track? Have you talked about careers at all outside of his sucky ultimatum? Because if you haven’t talked, it’s very possible he thinks you went to law school to get your MRS degree and he’s expecting you to stay home and take care of the kids soon.

      What’s the BF’s plan when he gets done with law school? What hours is he going to be working to pay off his debt? In a couple years your situations have a good chance of being reversed. And is he really upset that you work so much, or is he terrified that he will be in the same place once he graduates? Is he projecting? If he is then he needs therapy and it will all be fine.

      The other possibility is that he sees how much this is taking out of you and he wants someone who will be home to baby him when he’s going through it. Which is less about you and your ambition than it is about his weakness. Therapy (or dumping him) is still probably in order.

      Also, don’t kiss your co-workers.

      • Adara

        This! I’m glad you’ve brought up these good lawyering-angle questions for the OP.

    • Jane

      A bit late, but my $.02

      You know what your career goals are, but do you know what his are? He’s finishing law school, so soon he will be working as well. What is his ideal life in the future? What is your ideal life? What steps will he need to take? What steps will you need to take? If you stay together and get married, do you want kids? Who currently handles what chores and how will that change? Who will be the primary contact person? Does he want to stay in current city, or does he have plans to move?

      Yes, you are tired and perhaps some of your feelings are based on that. Yes, you made what you consider a mistake. But as your question is currently written, it sounds like you two haven’t had an honest conversation about your situation and your potential future together. Speaking from experience, I know it is easier to roll along and think that things will work out, particularly as students. But unless you both talk about what you want, this will end in hurt and disappointment.

        • Anon for this

          Thanks Anonymous, Adara and Jane for your comments. To answer your questions, my boyfriend ‘s goal is to work for the government making a comfortable salary and still have plenty of time to enjoy his hobbies. He has no student debt (we’ve had pretty open conversations about our finances) because his family is fairly wealthy and has been able to pay for his education and living expenses. We both love the city we are currently in, and we are currently dividing up our household chores as best as we can: he cooks and takes care of the laundry, and I pay for a cleaning service to come and clean because I don’t always have the time to clean.

          In my ideal future, my partner and I would be busy with our professional careers, but we would take time to be with one another and support each other to take the necessary steps to achieve our respective goals.

          My current boyfriend and I have talked about our future (i.e. marriage and babies) and we have both agreed that we would probably need to get a nanny or other child care assistance after I finished my maternity leave. He seems fine with having a nanny for his own children because he grew up with several nannies. I think the main issue right now is how much time we each think is appropriate or necessary to spend together, and the fact that he mostly tolerates my work and isn’t actively supporting and encouraging me.

          • Adara

            Yes, and that last thing is a huge issue! So I hope y’all can work on it and either fix it or acknowledge that you two just can’t make it work. I can imagine his “tolerating” your work creating feelings of resentment in both of you, which is the last thing that anyone needs hovering over their relationship.

          • Jane

            So then the other thing is what counts as time spent together. My SO and I are both scientists. I have an hour commute to my job with a government group. He’s an academic at the university within walking distance from our house. I’m typically gone 11-12 hours per day, and that is longer in the summer months.

            We both bring work home. Sitting on opposite ends of the couch within touching distance of each other counts as together time for us, but maybe that’s not true for your boyfriend. We try to do something fun one day or night per week but it’s more often once every two to three weeks.

            So more than just the quantity time together, I suggest that you discuss the quality of time together. Can he accept less time if you turn off your cell phone and focus on being together for 2 hours? My SO gets up and has breakfast with me even though he doesn’t have to be on-campus until three hours after I leave. For me, that makes a big difference in how connected I feel to him.

            This is still pretty new for both of you. It can be hard for some people to accept change. The good news is that your boyfriend likes spending time with you. The bad news is that he doesn’t like how much time your job takes. Since your job takes away time from him, it’s hard for him to be supportive. He may be able to be more supportive when he is working as well (I imagine as a student that he still has large swaths of free time), but he may not. Being supportive of a decision that you don’t agree with is very difficult. Try to find a mentor so you can determine whether these hours are necessary for several more years to reach your goals.

  34. Anon for this

    Sorry– posting before my thoughts were completed (iPad typing is not my strength).

    I don’t know that if the fact that I cheated is another clue that maybe I should get out of the relationship, or if it means that I need to be more vocal about what I need from the relationship. Over the past few weeks my boyfriend and I have had several conversations about our relationship–what’s wrong with it, what we could be doing differently, etc. His thinks that my job is what’s causing all of our problems. I don’t think that’s true, and I think that my job is maybe bringing out some of the latent differences in our values that may have always been there.

    Breaking up and moving out would be devastating to me, but I would be willing to do it to be happier in the long term. I guess I’m just hesitating to end things because I don’t really know if my feelings of dissatisfaction are the result of being tired and not having had some time for myself because of how busy work has been lately, or if this is a foreshadow of how things will be between us in the future.

    Any advice that anyone could provide would be hugely appreciated.

    • cbackson

      Personally, I’d say that you need to have a conversation with him in which you’re very honest about the fact that you’re professionally ambitious and need someone who supports that. You’re young, or at least, you’re at the beginning of your career. You’re enjoying it. You want to stick with it. If you give that up for him (and by the way: have you guys discussed the long term? If not for this would marriage/a permanent long term relationship be a certainty?), it’s very likely that you’ll resent him for it.

      This job is hard enough: don’t go into it without a supportive partner. Whether you dump the partner or the job is up to you. I generally say that a relationship should never end over biglaw, but the truth is that if you’re at the stage where you’re not committed to permanency, and this is your dream, you should pursue the dream, and let the guy go.

      On the other hand, it may just be that the adjustment is hard for him – and that’s something you guys can talk about.

    • Adara

      Wait, he says your job is causing *all* the problems? Please see my comment above. He sucks.

    • L

      Ah, this was me 6 years ago. In retrospect, I was not ready to be in a relationship, and it was only hurting him. I broke up with him and got out of the situation. It was devistating.

      We actually got back together, 5 years later. He matured and found that he could love me for my crazy ambition, and I finally admitted that one does not need to work 14 hours a day to be respectable. We were in our early 20s when we broke up, and I don’t think either of us would have been mature enough to work it out back then.

      This is more of an anecdote and not really advice, but I hope it helps!

  35. Barbara Lamar

    Your BF’s attitude might change after he graduates and starts working as a lawyer. So it might be worth staying in the relationship if it is generally satisfying. If your BF tries to make you feel guilty for the time you spend doing work you love, you should probably consider getting out of the relationship ASAP. I had problems most of my adult life with domestic partners and husbands not being supportive of my work. 13 years ago, when I was 49, I met my present husband, a professional writer who is very supportive and understanding (he loves his work too). It is worth holding out for a partner who cherishes you for all sides of your personality, including the professional side.

    • Hel-lo

      On our deathbeds, none of us will say, “I wish I spent more time at work. I wish I had been more ambitious.”

      But we may say, “I wish I spent more time enjoying my family and spending time with those I loved.”

      Is your partner-track really worth losing him over?

      No job is worth me losing my partner and family over.

  36. Cecelia

    I never get the “follow-up comments via email” since the server reset/crash of a few weeks ago.

    Does anyone else have this problem?

    • I did

      I did have this issue after our “technical difficulties,” until about a week ago.

  37. anonymous for this

    Corporettes, I’d like your thoughts on something. Growing up my mom permed my hair and it wasn’t until college that I let it grow out and realized it was curly. It doesn’t grow beyond my shoulders but I’ve worn it curly for years now. However, the older I get, the more I feel like it makes me appear much younger than I am. Normally I wouldn’t mind, but I’ve noticed as I advance in my career, I’m increasingly being mistaken for someone much younger. When applying for the job I have now, someone stopped to ask me if I was there for the admin assistant position. No, I was there for the associate director position (and got it, but still). Also, this isn’t about how I dress–that day I happened to be in a very nice, tailored to fit me perfectly, suit from Barneys. I actually think its a combination of my curly hair and petite features. But the features I’m stuck with (and I love them, don’t get me wrong).

    Anyway a few months ago, I decided to get my hair blown out (no chemicals!) just to see what it looked like and I fell in love with it. I got comments at work about looking more sophisticated and sleek and for the first time I wasn’t carded at happy hour. I’m 32!

    So here’s the catch, my fiance hates it. I mean, hates it, hates it. To the point that he now jokingly refers to me as the old me or the new me depending on how I’m wearing my hair. So, I actually have a couple of questions about all this.

    1. Do you really think how old you look affects your career advancement?
    2. What do you do when you change something about yourself that you love and your SO is not a fan of?
    3. Has anyone ever experienced something similar to this? What did you do?

    Thoughts?

    • Miriam

      I think your appearance can make it difficult to get your foot in the door, but potential employers would see your resume before they see your face and on the job, your work can speak for itself. That being said, can you straighten your hair during the work week and leave it curly on the weekends for yous husband? Also, maybe he just isn’t used to it and would like it after a few weeks.

    • Lawyer Bird

      I’m curly haired, and currently wear it fairly long, a la Rebekah Brooks. Men almost always like free-flowing, curly locks better. They see it as more feminine. So it doesn’t surprise me that your fiance feels this way.
      I do think it’s fine to try to look attractive to your partner. He’s entitled to give you input on your appearance, and you’re entitled to take that into account.

      I personally love my curls. I hate straightening them, and I don’t feel like myself when I do. So I ignored the advice of the CSO when I was a law student and wore them curly. I feel more confident and pulled-together when my hair is worn down and naturally curly. I refuse to change this aspect of myself, even if it means I sometimes have to work harder to be perceived as older and experienced, because it’s a part of my identity and my opinion of myself is more important than other people’s opinions of me. But you’re right that when my hair is down and curly, I’m perceived as younger and less experienced than I am. When I wear it up, which I often do on weekdays because of a lack of styling time, I’m perceived as older and more experienced, but I feel less confident in my own appearance. So for me it’s a wash.

      All this is to say, wear your hair any way you damn well please. It’s not like straightening it is irreversible, and surely you’ll tire of pulling out your blowdryer every day. So on the weekends, your fiance can run his fingers through your curly locks, and on weekdays you can wear it in the style that makes you feel more confident. My favorite thing about curly hair is the ability to style it a bunch of different ways – no reason to go with just one hairstyle forever.

    • Monday

      I used to straighten my hair and have switched to wearing it curly. I made the change at around the same time I changed jobs, so it was hard to do a controlled before-and-after read on how I was being perceived. Like you, I’m petite and I have a bit of a babyface. I was mistaken for someone younger and less advanced while straightening, and I still am now. I’ve adopted a rather blunt approach to correcting people because I find that works best. Not rude, but just “Actually, I’m a ______” or “actually, I’m X age.”

      I did not have any issue with SO objecting to the change, so can’t really speak to that. I think decisions about what to change/modify for him are very personal.

      The irony to being thought younger because you have curly hair is that wearing it curly was, for me, a decision that I associated with growing up. For years I prioritized looking a certain way to blend in, and then finally just felt it wasn’t worth the time, money and damage anymore. I had other priorities, and didn’t want to be hiding my natural look anymore. I am not saying people who continue to iron are in any way less mature–just speaking to my own experience. So I agree with Lawyer Bird. There’s only so much you can do about what others will think….you have to suit yourself here.

    • NB

      1. I agree with others that how old you look may impact first getting your foot in the door, but it doesn’t have a long term negative impact, in my experience. I am often thought to be a number of years younger than I am when people initially meet me, but as we discuss certain work milestones or events or accomplishments, those thoughts fall away. I wouldn’t worry about it.

      2/3. I have had experience with this. My SO had strong feelings about my hair, and I accommodated him over the near decade we were together. I changed it as soon as we broke up, and am still somewhat ashamed (years later) that I let his preferences override my own and didn’t at least work out a compromise.

      Because you are straightening your hair through heat rather than a relaxer. you have flexibility. If you love your straight hair, go for it. If making your SO happy every now and then is worth going curly for a bit (maybe stretching out the time between blowouts), go for that too. I don’t think it is bad to keep your SO’s thoughts in mind, but make sure it is something with which you are also comfortable.

    • TechAnon

      I wore my hair long and permed through my 20s, but grew very tired of maintaining it. I had always had short (pixie cuts) as a kid and wanted to cut it off again. My husband didn’t want me to cut it, but I did anyway.

      I LOVED my new short hair. Everyone except my husband loved it. He hated hated hated hated it, and told me often how much he hated it. Did I mention he hated it?

      I’m sorry to say that I can mark the day I cut my hair the way I really wanted it as the day my marriage started to unravel. Obviously, it wasn’t what caused our divorce, but it exposed a part of him that I hadn’t seen before and I didn’t like what I saw. I mean really, it is just hair. Nothing about who I am inside changed. What if I had gained/lost a lot of weight, or suffered a disfiguring accident, or any number of other ways that people’s physical appearance changes? Would he have told me every day, “I hate your mastectomy scar, it’s ugly”?

      I’m not saying that your husband is in any way like my ex. Just telling my own story here, since you asked, “What did you do?” I left him, and rock my short hair to this day.

      • Hel-lo

        See, I think that hairstyle can greatly affect how you are perceived at work. That’s why we have had thread on it here so often (curly v. straight, long v. short, ponytails, etc.)

        You need to look sophisticated and in control at work. Some curly-haired ladies can rock that. Others prefer to straighten and look sleek. It’s your choice.

        As for your fiancé, relationships take compromise. From him and from you. I have wavy hair, and generally let it curl up when I’m with my boyfriend, and blow it out for work.

        I think men look at curly hair and get some sort of “wild woman” sexy vibe. The term “bedroom hair” means something to them. So you want something like that for times with your partner, but not at work.

        A quality stylist might have some compromise suggestions, too.

  38. Guerlain meteorites powder

    Does anyone use this? Perls or “voyage compact”? Which do you prefer? Am considering a purchase.

      • Guerlain meteorites powder

        I just got back from Bloomingdales. The counter woman said that the compact has more powder and therefore more coverage. While she was helping someone else, I put the perls on one side of my face and the compact on the other. I could not tell the difference, but the perls were more fun.

        When she came back to me, I told her I had done half and half and asked what she thought. She responded that the compact has more coverage. So I asked her which side she preferred. She said she liked the left side because it had more coverage and was the side on which I applied the compact. Wrong – it was the perls. So I bought the perls.

        FWIW, I was at a very large indoor shopping mall in southern California. It was packed. I guess the recession is over? Who are all those people spending all that money?

  39. Anon for this

    I graduated law school in 2010 with about 89,000 in loans (once all consolidated w/ interest capitalized). I was on IBR and worked hard to pay extra above the amount due during my clerkship and put all extra cash (tax refunds etc) toward the loan. I paid it down to about 86,000 by this past summer. Then I got married, and we put about 17,000 in cash we got towards the loans, total due was then 69,000 or so. My husband’s family is wealthy, much wealthier than my own. They recently paid off my loans…the whole 69k in one check, like it’s just whatever. I was very resistant to them doing this, but my husband wanted it (because it just makes no economic sense to refuse) and my practical side prevailed.

    Here is the issue : I feel really guilty about this. It makes me feel like a trophy wife, which is so not why I went to law school. I prided myself in living as cheaply as possible during law school, making efforts to pay extra on the loans, etc. I was really looking forward to the day when I paid them off and had the personal satisfaction that would come with that. My working class/puritan values background will not let me be at ease with this. I’m thinking of saving the money I would have put towards loans and using it to help my nieces/nephews pay for college when the time comes. My sister and her husband are scraping by paycheck to paycheck, and there is no way they have anything saved for that. I feel like I would be paying the good luck forward, in some sense, which eases my conscience.

    Second problem: I don’t think I can tell my law school friends about this, at least not the ones who have loans they are struggling with and who I commiserated with about payment options/interest/consolidation bureaucracy all of that. When it comes up now, should I just stay silent?

    I’m not looking for sympathy here- I know I’m extremely fortunate and many others would kill to have these “problems”- but I thought you self-sufficient ladies might be able to relate to my conflicting emotions about this.

    • Anon D

      You will just have to get over the guilt. If your friends bring it up, stay silent. If someone pushes you, tell the truth about your good fortune. They should be happy for you if they are true friends.

    • Lawyer Bird

      I wouldn’t tell any friends except possibly your very closest friends. If it comes up, you can just say that you were extremely fortunate to have a windfall recently and you were able to pay off your debt. They don’t need to know what the windfall was.

      Don’t feel guilty. Your in-laws love you and wanted to give you a gift. This gift also benefits their son, who as your spouse shares your debt. It benefits their future grandchildren, who will grow up in a debt-free household and have more money in their college funds. It was an extremely generous gift, and assuming you expressed gratitude, you can forget about it now.

      If you have extra money, it would be very good of you to make a gift to your nieces and nephews. A regular contribution to their college fund is an extremely appropriate way to pay it forward. But don’t do it because you feel guilty – do it because you love your nieces and nephews. You don’t have anything to feel guilty about.

      • anon

        one thought: feeling bad about taking the money goes to pride, not frugality… it is practical to pay it off if you can in this way, as it’ll cost less interest.
        if things reversed somehow, you’d do this for him /his family right?

        • AFT

          original poster here. It makes total economic sense, that’s why I swallowed my pride and let them do it. And yes, I would have done it for them if I could.

    • another anon

      I can relate to the akwardness of this somewhat–I had a scholarship for law school and also a spouse with a well-paying job, so unlike many of my classmates I did not have any law school loans. I just keep my mouth shut about it unless specifically asked, in which case I just say that I was fortunate enough to have a scholarship and not to have to take any loans (Except one time when I totally put my foot in my mouth. Some of my friends were complaining about some agency that administers the loans, and were referring to it by an acronym. I didn’t know what they were talking about, so I said, “What’s [acronym]?” Whoops!).

      Also, I think your idea to save up for your nieces/nephews college is very sweet, and should 100% absolve you from any guilt you feel about taking your in laws’ money.

    • cbackson

      Breathe deeply, and make a solemn pledge to yourself that you’ll help someone else, when you’re able to. That’s all that you can do.

    • 529?

      I agree with Lawyer Bird (actually, I read your comment on my phone while putting gas in my car earlier but waited for a real computer keyboard to respond).

      What if you opened a 529 account (either one for each niece/nephew, or one for the entire generation — it’s been a while since I looked at the rules) and put money in it when you can. Then your sister and her husband can do the same and still feel involved.

      • Sara

        Just accept with grace and be happy:) Many people struggle, many others get windfalls sometimes, ride it when it’s on the upside. Yay you.

    • Kay

      I went through something similar (inheritance here) and I totally get the guilt. I also came to law school with commitment to public service and as I’m applying to public service jobs, the issue of (low) pay and loans comes up in interviews. In interviews, I just highlight my pre-law school public interest jobs and say I understand what it’s like to work for public-interest pay and considered all the economic implications before deciding to go to law school. With friends, I just stay silent, or non-committal, saying things like “Yeah, that sucks,” “I agree, school is way too expensive these days.” I think people pick up on the fact that this is not something you want to talk about. At first, I was wrestling with the exact same feelings you are having, but it’s been less of a problem than I anticipated.

      • Dutchfan

        People will get jealous, but that doesn’t mean they should. Your inlaws want to help you out, and they should be able to use their money however they see fit. I understand the pressure to feel “guilt” about accepting the money, but please don’t. The fact that you wrote about this on corporette shows that you are sincere, hardworking, and appreciative.

        I grew up in a relatively wealthy family, yet I was one of the few I knew who had a job through most of undergrad and law school (plus multiple jobs in the summer- hey I liked working, actually!). My parents actually told me to spend MORE money because they always saw me struggle with spending anything on myself. If people want to comment on my “privileged” upbringing, I just point to the hard hours of work I put in and out of school to get to where I am today. My true friends (most of whom grew up in very average households), ‘get’ me and see that good side of me. The rest can be negative in their jealousy bubble and feel sorry for themselves.

    • Anon B

      Definitely do not feel guilty! You did pay a lot down yourself, and made sacrifices while going to law school and clerking to do so. My parents paid for my law school tuition (I paid for books, other school expenses, bar prep etc), but I also worked full time and lived at home with them (and mowed their lawn, took out trash, cleaned etc) while in law school. My dad also worked full time while going to law school at night so he knew how it was. I don’t feel guilty because they could afford to do it without any sacrifices on their part, and I wasn’t loafing around in a posh apartment going on awesome spring break trips in law school.

      It honestly rarely comes up, and if it did come up in group conversations, I just didn’t say much. People only directly asked me handful of times about it, and all I said was my parents paid for my law school tuition, but all these people also knew I was working full time and living at home.

      Your inlaws are your family now, and they’re in their minds what’s best for the family. God willing I find a good paying legal job, I fully intend to give a big chunk of money to my little brother for college, so my parents won’t have to invest nearly as much in his education, so I think it’s a great idea to contribute to your nieces/nephews.

  40. Anon

    I am in an analogous situation. I am still in law school, but will be graduating without any loans due to a large scholarship plus husband having family money that he wanted me to use to cover the rest of tuition. It took me a long time to agree to him paying for the remainder because like you, I was brought up to be frugal and make my own way (and we both live like that despite him having family money available). When I did agree to this, I realized that it was out of love and also economic practicality (which appeals to my puritan frugality).

    So as to your first question, I like your idea of setting up an account for your nieces and nephews if you are financially able to swing it. I would involve your husband in it. I wouldn’t bring up the “I feel like a trophy wife” aspect, but the “we are so blessed and I want to pay it forward part.” You might not even need to make the connection to the current loan savings, but just say that you are thinking of setting aside a small amount each year – you could start it as a holiday gift for them this winter.

    As to your second question, I wouldn’t bring it up with friends with loans. I just agree when people talk about their loans because it is true that they suck / are scary in this job market / etc. I am so grateful that I am not in that position, so I genuinely mean what I say. I am a private person naturally and even if I did have loans I probably wouldn’t give any more detailed information. None of my friends talk about amounts, so at least that makes it a little easier. In short, I guess I don’t talk about it because a) I don’t want to make anyone jealous or resentful of me and b) I don’t like anyone knowing about my personal finances.

    • AFT

      OP here. Thanks for the thoughts everyone! I think I just need to give it some time to settle in and for me to get used to the idea of that giant weight just disappearing into thin air.

      I’m definitely going to set aside some cash for the nieces & nephews, and try to be a more generous friend/person in general.

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