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Updated: Nov 1, 2018 357 Comments · by

Weekend Open Thread

Weekend Open Thread

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Comments

  1. a.

    Love the ones with the gold hardware. Love. Love. Love. Gotta say, Kat, you’ve been nailing it for me recently :)

  3. anon for this

    This morning’s post on maintenance of your lady garden got me wondering:

    Has your partner expressed a preference on how the lady garden is kept? Have you acquiesced to this preference? Do you think a partner has a right to request that a lady garden be maintained in a certain way?

    I am not sure if I’ve just dated some really crappy gardeners, but I’ve never been with any gardeners who didn’t express a preference that I keep the garden um… grass free? Some have just expressed it as a preference and let it go, others have put a little more pressure on it (i.e, I ‘d *really* like it, would you *ever* consider it) and others, after I started maintaining the garden as a matter of course, have expressed disgust or discomfort with an unwaxed LG (aside: this sentence makes it sound like I’ve worked with many gardeners, but really, it’s a only a handful – it’s just anecdata).

    Some obviously, were jerks. But I wonder where the line is in a partner expressing his (or her!) preferences about the LG. If your partner preferred it a certain way, and you didn’t love that, would you still do it?

    • anon

      Mine expressed no preference. All happy just to be in the garden. I line the garden with stones to keep all the plants inside but dont do anything more than that. I don’t think I’d like it if he expressed a preference.

        • Meg Murry

          This was what I thought too when you wrote about the stones! I giggled at the thought, and I’m glad I’m not the only one who’s mind went there.
          Ok, sub-survey time – anyone here vajazzled? No for me. Anyone here able to say vajazzle without laughing? No again.

          • TO Lawyer

            haha I’m giggling at my desk now. Meg Murry – my answers to both of your questions is also no but I have to say I’m really curious about vajazzling – and what men think about it. I feel like that would be quite the surprise!

          • Divaliscious11

            I LURVE jewelry, sparkles, but I draw a line at vajazzle!!! Just, no!

          • Saacnmama

            The dining hall at the university where a friend works went on a pro-vegetables campaign, complete with posters using wordplay combining “vegetable” and “vajazzle”. Might’ve been “vegezzle” I’m not sure. It was too awful to remember

        • a.

          I never thought I would see the word vajazzle on [this website]. OMG dying.

          As for the actual question, one of my former gardeners expressed a strong preference for bare shrubbery, but I never acquiesced, because, why should I if I don’t want to. Other than him, off the top of my head I can’t think of anyone expressing a preference. I’ve run the gamut in terms of the shrubs, but mostly tend to keep them neat and trimmed.

          If I were to get a request for bare shrubbery from a guy I liked more than the one who asked me, I’d probably do it. I, personally, prefer having a certain amount of foliage (?? struggling with my metaphor). But if it meant a lot to a partner I cared about, who approached the question in a respectful, sensitive way, I’d get rid of it.

      • Ellen

        Yay! Open thread’s! I love FRIDAY’s thread’s!

        Alan was very demanding about my garden, b/c he wanted me to look like a young girl, and it was NOT good. What is WORST is that Alan never tended his own “garden” and you can imagine how rideiculus it was for him to tell ME what to do when he was a smelley MESS. FOOEY! No more of that from him or any other GUY.

        I posted a TAX question yesterday on the CAMI thread, but not alot of peeople read it, I am re-posting in the hope that there is someone in the HIVE that can settel an arguement.

        I have a TAX THREAD JACK for the HIVE. My dad is prepareing my 1040 TAX return. DAD did NOT agree with Frank’s includeing $1835 on a Form 1099 for me, which is for last year’s clotheing REIMBURSMENT allowance. My dad say’s that this money should NOT be taxeable b/c I have to wear nice clothe’s for work and the reimbursment is not different then me getting a free uniform from the manageing partner to wear, which I wear ONLY for work. My dad says b/c no taxes were taken out, I will have alot of EXTRA taxes of about $600 for this 1099. He also says the manageing partner should have considered this payroll income if he had to include it at all, and then they would be payeing taxes too, which they are NOT. FOOEY!

        So Dad told me to tell Frank NOT to file the 1099, and if he already did, that he should REDUCE my W2 for next year by $2,000 to cover the cost of money. Dad says that if I have to include the 1099 money, then I should be abel to deduct 100% of the clothes I bought last year (more then the $1835 on the 1099), which is over $6000, b/c he say’s there is no way I would have needed all of those clothe’s if I was just still workeing as a process server. Dad is very smart, as a MENSA nominee, and he makes alot of sense, but I am very confused. FOOEY!

        Frank disagree’s. He says it is INCOME, and that my clotheing is NOT at all deducteable either, b/c I can wear those clothe’s any where, even if I don’t. Frank onley filed the 1099 with the IRS b/c I was over $600, and he is NOT going to do what my dad want’s. If I am goieing to have to pay an extra $600 in taxes, should I ask the manageing partner to reimburese me for the taxe’s? DOES ANYONE IN THE HIVE KNOW? THIS IS SO COMPLECATED and I DO NOT WANT TO GET AUDITED, so PLEASE HELP!

        Have a great weekend! I am off to Baltimore Sunday and may not have INTERNET ACCESS for a few day’s! FOOEY!

        • Vincent

          I will support your position with the IRS, even though Frank has the better argument over Mr. MENSA. If you date me, I will never question how you tend your “lady garden” either. I also will not request access more than you are comfortable providing. I am very clean and fresh downstairs and do not drink; hence far preferable to Alan. So how about dinner and giving me a free test drive?

        • Law Diva

          Ellen, frank is right. And do not let sleaze bags bamboozle you into giving them access to your lady garden. Guys will say anything to get into your panties. And kudos for dumping Alan. The dual standard is crazy. If you had to shave clean (or even a landing strip) just to please him, he should have scrubbed himself clean before demanding you give him oral sex. He is despicable. I won’t do that unless the guy showers right before we go to bed and not after we have had sex either. It has to be first.

        • RZ

          Men are pigs! You are lucky to be rid of him! And I would deduct it. Who is going to audit you? The IRS is busy with bigger fish.

          • Judith D

            Actually, this is a very close case, and reasonable minds can and have differed on the issue. I did some tax research on this and found out that this very issue was taken up through the appellate courts, with judges on the circuit disagreeing as to whether the case should be heard en banc. So Dad may not be so dumb in trying to push the envelope with Ellen’s taxes.

            See

            http://openjurist.org/628/f2d/467/pevsner-v-commissioner-of-internal-revenue

            As such, Ellen’s dad may well have a case, provided that he can prove that the clothing Ellen bought has no other use than at work. It is difficult tho it has been done with an airline pilot who had to buy shoes and keep them polished. Here is the case, which went to the 5th Circuit and is very interesting.

            Sandra J. Pevsner was a manager of the Yves Saint Laurent (YSL) boutique in Dallas, Texas. She was required by her employer to wear YSL clothing while at work and at work-related fashion shows and luncheons. She spent $1,381.91 on YSL clothing (at a discount) to meet these requirements, and subsequently deducted that amount from her 1975 federal income tax return as an ordinary and necessary business expense.
            Tax Court Ruling

            In the tax court, the Commissioner argued that the clothing was “suitable for general or personal wear”[1] and should therefore not be deductible. Pevsner argued (and the commissioner stipulated) that she has never worn the clothing outside of work and considers the clothing “too expensive for her simple everyday lifestyle.”[2] The tax court ruled that the test should be subjective to the taxpayer, and allowed the deduction on the grounds that “wearing of YSL apparel outside work would be inconsistent with … (taxpayer’s) lifestyle.”[3]
            Issue

            Is the cost of the YSL clothing purchased by Pevsner deductible as an ordinary and necessary business expense?

            Appellate Court Holding

            The clothing is not deductible as a business expense.

            Reasoning

            The general rule is that the cost of clothing is deductible as a business expense only if: (1) the clothing is of a type specifically required as a condition of employment, (2) it is not adaptable to general usage as ordinary clothing, and (3) it is not so worn.[4] The court held that the question of whether clothing is adaptable to general usage is to be approached with an objective test, rejecting the subjective test employed by the tax court below.

            The court justified an objective test by citing cases from other circuits.[5] The court also endorsed an objective test on policy grounds. First, the court reasoned that an objective test is more easily administered. That is, it would be impractical to determine what combination of price and style would push clothes out of the personal category and into a work-only status. Moreover, a subjective test would involve an examination of a taxpayer’s personal taste and fashion sense, providing no guidelines for a court to follow in its determination of what is deductible. Second, under a utilitarian theory, fairness among the greatest number of taxpayers is best served with an objective test. Under a subjective test “two similarly situated YSL boutique managers with identical wardrobes would be subject to disparate tax consequences depending upon the particular manager’s lifestyle and ‘socio-economic level.’”[6] The court wished to avoid such a result.

            Admittedly, policy arguments could be made on both sides of this case. However, since the court ruled in favor of disallowing the deduction, this section will focus on the policy behind that decision.

            Slippery slope. Allowing a deduction here would be leading down a slippery slope. Once these clothes, which arguably may be used in everyday life, are deductible, then what next? Makeup? Deodorant? Perfumes or cologne? Socks? Underwear? All of these are things that a taxpayer could reasonably say are only for work and that are inconsistent with everyday personal tastes. Clearly, the line must be drawn somewhere.
            Easy Administration. The court hinted at this argument but did not elaborate much. Millions of taxpayers have to wear certain clothes to work that may not be worn much otherwise. But, who would administer and oversee that there are no abuses if deductions are allowed willy-nilly? Soon enough, every taxpayer would be claiming ties, shirts, dress pants, and all sorts of clothing as work-only while easily being able to double-dip and wear them outside of work. Enforcement of such a system would be a logistical nightmare. It is much easier to administer a system where the general rule is a disallowance and then let taxpayers prove otherwise.
            Personal Choice. The taxpayer here is choosing to work at the clothing boutique. On the one hand, we want people to be employed and we don’t want to make that harder by forcing certain persons to make expenditures that prevent employment. On the other hand, Mrs. Pevsner chose to work at an upscale clothing boutique. She reasonably knew that the dress requisite for work would likely be something that she may not wear otherwise. But, she did receive some breaks. First, she was allowed to wear the clothing outside of work. Then, she was allowed to purchase the clothing at a discount. Finally, she got a lot of use out of the clothing. She wore it to work, to independent meetings, and to fashion shows. This demonstrates the versatility and adaptability of the clothing.

            Significance

            This decision explains why, for example, a young lawyer who buys a new suit exclusively for work and never dresses in a suit outside of work would not be able to deduct the suit on his or her tax return. Courts will find that the suit is generally suitable for ordinary wear, regardless of the particular lawyer’s personal dress habits outside of work.
            Academic Commentary

            Could question the result–once it is clearly a work requirement, why not allow the deduction? Allowing it seems to fit in with the ruling in Benaglia (personal benefit but lack of personal choice). Commissioner’s goal was probably to avoid the need to make case-by-case determination based on presence or absence of “convenience of the employer” argument.

            ================

            What does all this mean? That Ellen cannot deduct the clothes unless her dad can prove her clothes have no use outside of the business workplace. If Ellen can wear the clothes elsewhere, then it’s a losing argument.

            From what I’ve read, Ellen wears these clothes because of her job, but it is not at all clear to me that the clothing cannot be worn elsewhere. The case would be different if Ellen bought some sort of uniform which was like a logoed smock, which would be too embarrassing to wear elsewhere. However, she seems to buy designer outfits and shoes, which certainly can be worn elsewhere, even if Ellen doesn’t wear those except to work. Therefore, if I were a betting gal, I would say that Frank wins, and Dad loses.

            No one debates that Dad is a control freak and a real ass when it comes to not letting Ellen grow up and be her own woman, and even tho Frank is also a jerk, Dad loses. Sorry Dad. Mensa cannot be a defense to a 5th Circuit case where many smart judges weighed in.

          • The Hive

            Judith D,

            This may be the most intelligent post response EVER! Thank you!

    • Divaliscious11

      Hubs likes minimal shrubbery (which we discovered on a whim), as do I, but as long as the garden is open he really doesn’t care about foliage…

    • Anon

      Gardeners have expressed delight when the garden was grass free, but none made pre-grass free requests concerning the garden. Like anon above, I think gardeners are just happy to be in the garden.

    • Sheila

      Nope, my husband doesn’t care how the garden is maintained. Every so often I get the urge to straighten it up a bit, but he doesn’t even seem to notice and thinks it’s rather funny that I even bothered. And no, beyond basic cleanliness (regular watering) I don’t think one’s partner should get a say, really.

      • CKB

        This is my dh too. He just likes my garden period. I’ve asked him if he would like me to try something a little more bare (I’m pretty natural most of the time, occasionally do some trimming if I’ll be in a swimming suit) and he said he really doesn’t care as long as he has access.

      • Law Diva

        I Think Frank is right. Sorry but you can’t deduct these either. Be careful With guys that promise you things just to access your lady garden. They are sleezes that just won’t be there after they have had their way with you. And Kudos to you for dumping your smelly ex. No one should have to clean up vomit from even a dry drunk. And the dual standard he had for “garden tending” is totally unacceptable. I would never be made to shave myself clean(or even a landing strip) just to please a guy, and then have to go down on a smelly hairy guy who did not shower.

    • Anon

      I have never had anyone express a preference. Maybe because they sense it would result in being banished from the garden forever.

    • also anon

      I’ve never had any partner request anything or make any negative comments. I think one thought a lack of hair was exciting occasionally, but two actually preferred untrimmed or just trimmed.

    • anon for this

      I have been with the H for ages and he has never expressed preference. I shave bikini line and trim if the leaves get too long. He has never said anything to me about maintenance. Prior to the H the other gardeners were just happy to be there. We are talking the late 1990s here. I’m not sure if the brazilian was as much of a “thing” as it is now.

      I’m really glad to have interviewed gardeners who didn’t express a preference because I would probably be offended. I have tried it, didn’t like it, and have super-sensitive skin that gets bumps and irritation, so would rather just avoid.

    • anon for this

      Oh I guess as another potentially relevant note – I’m in my early-mid 20s, so Brazilians have definitely been A Thing as I’ve been coming-of-age.

      • anon

        Really? I’m mid-20s and they haven’t been a “thing” I know a few ladies who get them occasionally but most do not. I am always surprised when I see comments on here about the “expectation” because I didn’t realize there was one

        • anon for this

          Most of my friends get them (or shave to bare or landing strip levels) – at least in college. Not sure if it’s a regional thing? I’m in the Northeast.

          • anon

            In college a lot did. Now I am mid 20s, north east, and only one of my friends does.

          • Joanna Toews

            Data point: Early 30s in the Pacific Northwest. Most of my friends, many of them lesbians, remove all shrubbery… at least when they’re party planning.

          • Batgirl

            NYC, 34–entire spectrum among my friends (some of whom are very girly and into trendy things, etc and still don’t do all that much)–I’d say 1/2 wax (2/3 of those people just do regular bikini, 1/3 brazilian), and 1/2 shave minimally.

        • Need to Improve

          I think the best place for intlelligence on this is the gym. (No, I am not staring at people or anything, but you can’t help but notice.) I would say that at my gym the vast majority of younger ladies are free of *any* shrubbery.

        • AnonnonA

          I am 30 on the west coast and basically almost all of my friends get brazilians (either lasered off or waxed).

          I have been hair free for years now, and my boyfriend (and ex-boyfriends) have always said that they like it that way. I do it for me though, not them. I love having no hair down there, and I am so used to it at this point, that I really can’t imagine it any other way.

        • Blue

          Another data point, I’m mid-20s in Chicago, and I think most of my friends shave or wax all or most of it off.

    • also anon

      Mine talked about it for awhile – he had never experienced it, wondered what it would be like, but always ended the conversation with “but I would never ask you to do that because it would be so much maintenance.” One morning when I had a little more time, on a whim, I shaved it all off. The delight on his face that evening was definitely worth it. Now I always keep it shaved. If it was just about look, we probably wouldn’t have cared, but we both really prefer how it feels. He has also started trimming/shaving and it makes garden parties pretty awesome. Just my two cents.

    • a different anon

      I have expressed a preference to my DH as to how he keeps his man garden. He’s never expressed a preference to me (even though I’ve asked) but if in the future he did have a preference, I’d likely honor it. In a similar vein, I currently try to buy lingerie in styles he likes (when we met ages ago, most of mine was black but after a while he admitted he prefers lighter colors and red.) I can’t imagine him pressuring me on any of this. And I think that’s the key. I feel so loved and respected by him, and love and respect him and want to make him happy, that I’d view any request relating to gardening or landscaping in that light and not as him crossing some line.

    • Anon

      He has mentioned it jokingly but also said it’s too much trouble. I have yet to try due to coarse shrubbery – it does hurt more, right? I assume lack of shrubbery would encourage the gardeners to go down there more often?

    • Anon

      I feel like it used to be a thing in dirty movies and magazines, so some guys of a certain age (laste 20’s-30’s now? idk) imprinted on this idea of a bare garden and the douchey ones thought it was an expectation. I’ve only ever have one guy express a preference.

      • anon for this

        I think it pretty much still is a thing in p*rn, no?

        That book How to Be a Woman touches on that – that p*rn really shapes young men’s expectation of what a “perfect” sexual being should be, and that it ends up as a vicious cycle, where girls feel they have to acquiesce, and then boys use it as another data point that bare is “normal” and it continues.

        I *know* I’ve internalized it to some degree because now I do feel some measure of … well almost disgust with myself, if I leave it be. And it’s just hair! I’m not disgusted by the hair on my head. But with my last gardener, I went through a period where my skin was reacting badly to everything and I couldn’t wax. Whenever I would look down and see the grass on the lawn, I would feel ugly. Almost like if you look down and you see a roll of fat – you judge yourself for it, in an “I should be better, I should be thinner, I should be barer, I should be sexier” way. And that’s *crazy* and I *know* it’s crazy – but I have internalized it, at least to that degree.

        • Batgirl

          YES. This is kind of what I was getting at in this morning’s post. I’ve internalized it and I hate it!

          • NotYourGeneration

            I agree with you completely. But, I’ve never had a Brazilian, personal issues– philosophy–feminism–my rights to my body,etc. aside, I just can’t imagine some stranger peering at my private parts and touching them and hurting them. I. don’t. want. some. lady. staring at me down there, unless of course she’s my gyn.

            It’s PRIVATE down there. Plus now she knows this strange fact about me. Just no.

            I’m swedish, and very fair and have very little down there, but still. . . aren’t you all just mortified to have this done? Thank god this has never once been an issue in my romantic life, and my husband doesn’t get it at all. and what’s this about feeling “cleaner’? what, my daily shower ain’t enuff?

            Don’t mean to offend anyone’s choice. If it makes you happy, then good on you.

          • Divaliscious11

            Lol…something about delivering a kid in a hospital hallway (didn’t make it to L&D – in fact my official check in time is 55 mins after my #1was born) loosens up that whole privacy thing, especially at a teaching hospital…….

    • also anon for this

      This is always interesting to me. I am Italian (second generation) and a very hairy person, so I’ve been waxing my eyebrows and upper lip since I was very young, maybe 8-9 years old – as soon as kids were old enough to tease me for having a mustache. Maybe I’m just more sensitive to body hair than others were, but I started grooming my bikini line, at least to stay, literally, within the confines of said bikini/speedo, at about 14 or 15, and by the time I was a sophomore in high school was regularly shaving just about everything off. I eventually graduated to waxing and then to laser hair removal. I am 31 now, so have been doing this for at least half of my life and started in the mid-90s – I was very surprised to learn that this is apparently the exception rather than the rule.

      I’ve never had a boyfriend/SO state a real preference one way or the other.

      • AnonnonA

        I am not hairy in general, but also have been shaving/waxing/lasering everything off for years and years and years. I am a couple years younger than you.

        In my circle of friends, this is totally normal….so I don’t think that it is necessarily true that this is the exception rather than the rule. I think it totally varies!

    • Batgirl

      Most can probably guess my thoughts on this after this morning’s discussion, but I’ve never had a guy express a preference. That might be because I come across as pretty feminist and they probably wouldn’t dare. But also because I think I tend to date guys who are very sensitive to these issues in a bigger picture way (i.e. the implications of the question/choice) and they would feel like it was inappropriate for them to ask me to do something different from what I wanted to do.

      That said, I would be extremely annoyed if a guy asked me to go bare down there. Or to do anything down there that involved more pain or more work than I was already choosing to do. In part because I think it’s a criticism of how you’ve currently got things. But also because it’s your body and there’s a pain/time factor involved that I think is pretty substantial. Also, I think that if you’ve got your “lady garden” a certain way, then it’s probably because that’s your preference and it’s your body.

      For me, it’s along the lines of “you know what’d be really hot? If you lost 10 lbs.” Immediate grounds for dismissal.

      My current bf (who has expressed no preference beyond “I don’t know, I’ve never been with anyone where it’s ever been an issue/something I thought about”) did once say that he thought it should be something a partner could express to another in terms of preference–the same way you’d discuss an interest in a certain kink or something–but I’m not sure I agree it’s the same for the reasons I mentioned above (it’s your body and there’s pain, maintenance, and expense involved).

      • Alice

        +1. My SO has no preference, I just shave the sides, and I do think I’d be taken aback if someone asked me to not only invest the time and money (and deal with the pain), but to in essence change how I look. The same way I would feel taken aback if someone asked me to cut off my hair, or wear more makeup…

        • saacnmama

          When I had my hair done for my parents’ anniversary, I specifically chose a style my mom would like. Not a problem for an evening. I would think it would be the same with other styling elsewhere. But permanently making a change to suit someone else does sound creepy and like one is under a too-possessive thumb! I suppose if you didn’t care and he really did, OK, but doing something to your body that you don’t like is just generally a ‘no’.

          • Batgirl

            Agreed, if it were a “you know what’d be awesome to see you do just once…?” then maybe…just MAYBE, but not a permanent preference.

      • Susie

        Your bf is spot on here. If you are in a relationship you should feel comfortable discussing what appeals to you – expressing a preference is very different than demanding what the other person do. It’s up to you what you do with that information, whether that be experimenting with something different or keeping the status quo.

        • anon56

          I don’t really agree with this, though. Expressing a preference puts pressure on the other person to comply. And it’s really not fair when compliance involves pain, money, time, upkeep, etc. It’s not just a preference, like wearing certain l i n g e r i e or some game you like to play. It’s just not the same.

          • Calibrachoa

            Yup. Its one thing if they are also willing to keep their man jungle down, but if it is entirely one-sided….

          • Divaliscious11

            A preference is just that, a preference, not a requirement. Why should that put pressure on you? If it was a requirement, he’d move on, but I don’t think he or she should feel prohibited or inhibited about expressing their preference in a relationship.

    • saacnmama

      That was my first thought when I heard that the reason for waxing was a photo shoot for her husband. In that case, it makes sense to me to do it according to his preference (and don’t show up looking like a per-pubescent girl if he finds that unattractive.)

      • anonwaxer

        I used to be an aesthetician, so I did brazilians (till very recently)

        I would say 85% of my clients were under 30. Not everyone, at all, but the vast majority. Most (again NOT all, everyone does what they like for their own life!) of the ladies in their 30’s and 40’s who came in were somewhat newly single (usually divorced) and out in the dating world discovered that this is now an ‘expectation’, since most men in their age group date 24 year olds. There was also a lot of ‘why not, might as well try something new’.
        The younger ladies, by contrast, generally were doing it because they wanted to and because it’s just what they consider part of grooming.

        Again, anecdotal, but my anecdote is based on hundreds of women, so, a few more data points at least.

        On a personal level, my hubs like the garden well maintained in the lower quadrants, but likes some foliage on the top. Otherwise, he says he feels like the landscaping is kind of…immature…and he feels skeevy about that. He prefers landscaping that goes with the maturity of the garden.

    • SOoooo anon

      Love of my life cheated when I went away for 2 weeks. He was nearly as devastated as I. Relationship ended. A couple months later, the booty calls began. Different excuses each time, but same response from me: “I owe you for the way you helped me out in this new-to-me country when I was just getting a job and met you. I’ll never forget that you gave me a place to live and food. I will always be grateful to you and want to be your friend. If you missed the last subway/don’t have fare/ are too tired to go home/miss your friend, you are always welcome”. Sometimes he’d come, sometimes he wouldn’t. If he did, it took a couple go rounds to get him to lie down alone and sleep.

      Finally, we both got sick of it. He came over after a long night out and insisted he was my husband coming home to me, why hadn’t I prepared, had I even shaved?! (perhaps a vague preference during the relationship, but had never been a big deal). I told him he was crazy expecting me to do that much work for him; he said he’d do it himself. Into the bathroom we went. He was drunk as a skunk and had that crazy close concentration. Took him a long time to do it (and no nicks!). Off to bed we went where he admired his handiwork, oiled it, went down on me like he never ever had…all very nice. Then he grinned “it’s my turn!” and flopped onto his back expectantly. I said “are you kidding? I’ve got to go to work”, got dressed nicely and left. A couple hours later, he was awoken by current suitor sawing something in the kitchen where he was doing some home improvement for me. They had coffee together, and he never called in the middle of the night again.

  4. AFT45

    Shopping help please! I am attending a Casablanca-themed event in a few weeks (semi-formal/formal). I find myself confused between 40s and 50s garb and then veering into Mamie Eisenhower territory. Any recommendations? I’m a size 10-12, so a lot of vintage stuff is too small. Would like to spend <$250. Thanks!

    • ML

      I think the early 40s were more of a straight-and-narrow type silhouette than the late 40s and early 50s. I’d go with something knee length, belted, or with a set in waist, maybe with a peplum or some shoulder padding/structure. They wore a lot of adorable little suits then, but you probably don’t want to wear a suit to a cocktail party. Have you looked at shabby apple? they have some cute vintage-inspired dresses and some of them might be 40s looking.

    • ML

      I think the early 40s were more of a straight-and-narrow type silhouette than the late 40s and early 50s. I’d go with something knee length, belted, or with a set in waist, maybe with a peplum or some shoulder padding/structure. They wore a lot of adorable little suits then, but you probably don’t want to wear a suit to a semi-formal party. Have you looked at shabby apple? they have some cute vintage-inspired dresses and some of them might be 40s looking.

      • Notalawyer

        You can find photos of some 40’s looks recreated here http://wesewretro.com/.

        The posters are doing various eras, but if you look back through the posts you should find plenty of examples from the 40s. (No, I’m not expecting you to sew your own. You can get some great ideas for silhouettes, accessorizing, and hairstyles if you look here.)

    • Anon

      I was curious since I had never seen Casablanca, so I looked it up: fortieswardrobe.blogspot.com/2011/10/casablanca-1942.html

      It looks like she wears a lot of awesome hats, but the clothing was fairly plain. Maybe invest in a great hat and wear a blazer over a dress or blouse and skirt?

    • Mountain Girl

      I have nothing else to add but I want to come! What a fun theme for a party.

    • Parker - Boardroombelles

      Hey AFT, I would read Casablanca as a general “old Hollywood Glamour” theme and run with that. I second that its all about the accessories. Take a simple shift in a light color and then add pearl choker, a faux fur stole (they’re on sale at a lot of places right now), nude fishnets, retro heels. Do your hair in Old Hollywood Waves (best and easiest ever tutorial here: type “birchbox how to hollywood waves” into Youtube) and pencil in a strong brow and red lips. Maybe pin a small fascinator adornment to the side of your head.
      To help you get a visual, I made you a set: http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/set?id=74076435

  5. Boston Legal 'Rette's

    Any recommendations for in-house head hunters? Seriously considering moving back and am casually looking, but need a more strategic plan. I have a corporate/commercial and regulatory/compliance (but not bio/pharma – although I am interested in moving into that area if I can find the right position) practice 10+ years.
    Anyone you really like, places to avoid?

    TIA!

  6. Baby DC Esq.

    Frequent reader, first time poster

    To all the lady lawyers out there – have any reactions to the news of layoffs at Patton Boggs today? I’m a first year in BigLaw DC and could use some reassurances that this isn’t the beginning of a trend!

    • Fiona

      I just looked it up. I’m not sure what happened there, but I was also around for the Big Bad of 2009, and I will say that the current legal environment is nothing like that. From what I can tell of my firm and other firms I’m working with, people are BUSY. In January/February 2009, you could hear the crickets echoing through the halls. It was bad bad bad and everyone knew it. Individual firms have floundered since then for their own reasons, but IMHO, I don’t see this news as the first horseman of a new apocalypse.

      • SFBayA

        Did Patton do layoffs in 2009 though? Maybe they were just overdue. To be honest, some firms didn’t do enough layoffs in 2009, and they’re realizing that they can’t keep limping along. I have friends at a couple firms like this, and it smells like layoffs are in the air. Baby DC, what matters is how YOUR firm is doing. Did your firm do big layoffs in 2009? Is everyone in your office busy? Are the rainmakers still there? If so, you’re fine and there’s nothing to worry about. Some firms haven’t really shifted to being run like a business, so they’re catching up. Like Fiona said, this market doesn’t feel like 2009 at all, though it certainly doesn’t feel like the glory days either.

    • KLG

      I agree with Fiona. When worked slowed down in late 2008, we knew it. There was NOTHING to do.

      I do think there is a lot of uncertainty about the economy and federal budgets in DC at the moment and some concern over a possible government shutdown at the end of the month. For firms who are heavily affected by that, I do think they are viewing now as a good time to get rid of bloat.

      • In-House Optimist

        I agree with KLG and SFBayA. Isn’t PB a lobbying/government affairs heavy firm? It could definitely have had something to do with that! But my friends at firms in DC are crazy busy – it really depends on how your firm is doing.

    • Cornellian

      I remember friends of mine that summered in 2010 (we’re the class of 2011) got across-the-board no-offered… they don’t seem on stable ground, unfortunately. Curious to see if anyone else follows suit.

  7. Mary Ann Singleton

    Searching for two different types of recipes – any and all suggestions welcome!

    1. Moroccan-style tagine for a slow cooker. Vegetarian or chicken.

    2. Egg free dessert dish. Can be anything (for someone allergic to eggs) as long as it’s not too complicated to make.

    Thanks!

    • SFBayA

      The NYT had a chocolate mousse recently that was only chocolate and air, served with fleur de sel that I’ve been meaning to try. Smitten Kitchen’s Apple Mosaic tart is stupid easy if you use frozen puff pastry and a showstopper.

    • Kontraktor

      No recipes right on hand, but some ideas for things to look up I think would be easy.

      Panna cotta + berries. Scones (plenty of egg-free recipes) or short cake (similar) or short bread cookies (flour/liquid/butter recipes should be easy to find) with berries/fruit/jam/whipped scream. Fruit and artisan cheese plate.

      Also, check out anything from Post Punk Kitchen/Veganomicon for lots of easy vegan desserts (obligatorily no eggs). I’m allergic to eggs and do a lot of vegan or modified vegan baking.

    • Calibrachoa

      Quark mousse! :D Whipped cream + plain quark + fresh or frozen berries = omnomnom

    • Margaret

      I have the perfect recipe for you! From my “Not Your Mother’s Slow Cooker Recipes For Two” cookbook (double for more people, obviously):

      2 T olive oil
      2 T slivered almonds
      1 clove garlic, minced
      4 boneless, skinless chicken thighs
      1 cup tomato salsa (book recommends Salsa de Luna or Newman’s Own Mild Chunky)
      2 T dried currants (I used raisins when I made it)
      4 t honey
      1/2 t ground cumin
      1/4 t ground cinnamon
      salt and freshly ground pepper to taste

      Spray the crock with cooking spray. Heat the oil in a large skillet over medium-high heat until hot. Add the almonds and cook, stirring, until golden, 1 minute. Remove from the skillet with a slotted spoon and set aside to drain on paper towels. When cool, coarsely chop. (Note from my kitchen: very easy to burn these!)

      Add the garlic to the skillet and cook, stirring, until just fragrant, about 20 seconds. Add the chicken thighs to the skillet and cook, turning once, until lightly browned, 4 to 5 minutes. Transfer the contents of the skillet to the slow cooker (1 1/2 to 3 qt).

      Combine the salsa, currants, honey, cumin, and cinnamon and pour over the chicken. Cover and cook on LOW for 2 to 2 1/2 hours, until the chicken is fork-tender and the juices run clear when pierced with a fork. Season with salt and pepper. Serve hot, topped with the toasted almonds.

      • Moroccan heritage anon

        Please don’t call chicken cooked in salsa with raisins, honey, and cinnamon a Moroccan tagine style dish. Just… call it something else. It might be delicious but there’s nothing remotely Moroccan about it.

        • Margaret

          I will defer to you, as I am not Moroccan, but I must say that the flavors are very reminiscent of many of the tagines I have eaten in Moroccan restaurants (which I frequent with some regularity), which have raisins, tomatoes, almonds, or some combination thereof. For those who are interested, I will add that I was skeptical because of the salsa when I first tried it, but the overall effect is not at all “Mexican.” FWIW, the recipe is called “Moroccan Spiced Tomato Chicken with Almonds.”

          • Houda

            As a Moroccan born and raised: You do not put tomatoes in sweat chicken tagine.. it is borderline blasphemous!

  8. Fiona

    Gifts for kids threadjack — I’m going over to a junior partner’s house for brunch next weekend, and I want to bring something for his 2.5 year old twin boys. I’ll also bring a hostess gift for him and his wife, but I’d still like to bring a little something for his kids. I’m trying to think of something small (they live in the city) but fun and interactive. Any thoughts on what would be good?

    • B

      Books are always welcome gifts in our house and don’t have to be expensive. I recommend Pout Pout Fish as a current favorite. 2yos also tend to be into stickers and balls.

      • Anon

        Books are always a great gift in my house. Pete the Cat books are really big right now. Also, for your average 2.5 year old, as another poster said: planes, trains and automobiles are always winners (my son seriously loved his matchbox cars for his birthday more than the expensive gifts). If there are twins, just make sure you bring two. Asking a two year old to share, well, it doesn’t always work.

      • LackingLuster

        LOL– my husband gave my daughter (2 years old) an etch-a-sketch and she was so mad that the screen did nothing when she touched it. She wasn’t patient enough to use it. Stickers and balls are good, so are books.

    • Miss Behaved

      For some reason, I can’t get to Amazon right now. Search for automoblox.

    • mascot

      Planes, trains and automobiles are huge in our house now. As are stickers and coloring books, especially if they contain the same.

      • Anon

        Yes–planes, trains and automobiles are big in our house also (2 and 4 year old). Target makes some wooden trains and cars that are usually all mixed together in a bin in the toy aisle that are only a couple dollars each. My kids love these! (The trains are similar to the Thomas ones, and stick together with a magnet on the end, but much cheaper.)

    • Mountain Girl

      Whatever you get, make sure you have one for each of them. I have twin boys and at that age they weren’t very good at sharing. Since we always had 2 of everything they didn’t really learn about having to share until they went to preschool.

    • saacnmama

      One of those magnetic screens that has a “pen” and magnets in different shapes.

      If they have a train set, something special for that.

      Books are always good.

      My kid’s favorite activity at that age was to dump the recycling together, then sort it out again. (Yes, we had blocks and a train set and an easel and a gazillion other things more appropriate to play with!)

    • Meg Murry

      Another plug for books – board book versions of “real” books were a big hit at our house, like the board book for Are You My Mother or The Little Engine That Could. Anything with wheels is also a hit. And for a random one – my son was obsessed with balloons and loved getting mylar balloons – they are more sturdy than a regular helium balloon so can stay up for a week or more and don’t pop easily. In fact, when asked what he wanted for his 3rd birthday, his answer was “cupcakes and balloons” because those are the 2 things he remembered from his 2nd birthday.

  9. anon for obvious reasons

    Ladies-

    Has anyone here ever dealt with low libido and come out on the other end with a happy healthy relationship? I feel like I’m failing my husband, and for the first couple of years of this he was patient and kind and encouraging, and now he just seems defeated…

    This is going to be another tough weekend sadly…

    • Merabella

      How long has this been going on? Was your libido always low? Are you on any medications where a low libido is a side effect? Is it more that you just aren’t interested in sex but once you do it you are OK with it?

      The last questions says more about me than anything else. I sometimes don’t want to be bothered with sex, but if I decide to just lay back and think of England then I actually enjoy myself. I think it is just having to get into the mindset of it (like going to the gym).

      If it isn’t that, and if this were me I would do a few things. I would ask my doctor about medications, if no med, then I would ask for a hormonal work up.

      Also look into going to therapy on your own to see if there are any other underlying issues.

      • De

        I’m sorry–I feel a little odd asking this, but I’m terribly curious–was that Autocorrecting “lay back and think of England?” Or do you actually think about England (maybe that’s…home?)

        • De

          Upon reading further into the thread apparently that’s a thing…I never knew!

          • January

            Legend has it that Queen Victoria advised her daughter upon her marriage to “lie there and think of England.”

    • anon for obvious reasons

      To answer your questions: I’m on hormonal BC and recently off anti-depressants. I’ve been on the BC for as long as I can remember, but even before that I had a low sex drive. The only time I can remember having a consistent desire for sex was as a teenager.

      I have done the “England” thing in the past, but lately sex has been very uncomfortable so I have just stopped in the middle.

      • Merabella

        I would definitely ask your doctor about a hormonal work up and/or go to therapy. You deserve to have an enjoyable sex life. The BC and anti-depressants could be to blame, or there could be an underlying issue. Good luck, and keep us posted.

      • TO Lawyer

        When you say it’s uncomfortable, is it physically or emotionally uncomfortable? If it’s physically uncomfortable, maybe you need to add some “liquid” to your LGPs (not sure if the word l u b e will get me into moderation) but it may make a huge difference to your comfort levels!

      • Bonnie

        You should definitely have a candid conversation with a doctor. Good luck.

        • In House Lobbyist

          I think BC killed my s*xdrive for several years. It got so much better when I went off it. I think it’s one of those little talked about side effects of hormonal BC. Things are so much better now.

        • CW

          Agreed. If it is uncomfortable you should speak with a doctor. You may also want to ask the doctor to run some hormone level tests, which could be affecting your drive/desire.

        • anon

          I had some uncomfortable garden parties when I was on hormonal BC also — to the extent my doc prescribed lidocaine lotion. But when I went off BC, the self-irrigation system came back on, pain went away, libido revived. It was amazing. But my doc never suggested BC could be the problem.

      • Anon

        Hormonal BC and antidepressants? One of those alone can kill your libido, so I can only imagine what both in combination would do. This is one of the reasons I can’t do hormonal BC. Maybe experiment with non-hormonal BC (I love the paragard IUD myself). I found that coming off the BC pills I was like a teenager again – my hormones were raging, in a nice way. It eventually settled down, but never to the low level I had when I was on the pill.

      • Mighty Mouse

        Was on oral contaceptives for years and years and NuvaRing, too. Low libido and painful, painful sex. Two months after going off I started to feel more like myself and by three months was raring to go. No more hormonal stuff for me ever.

        Good luck! Can you take a vacation from the pill?

      • ER

        I agree that you should see a doctor. In the short term, if lube isn’t solving your discomfort, it’s possible that you’re also tight from not having sex frequently. I’m naturally very tight and when I have sex less than once a week, the sex can be pretty painful. If you think this might also be the case for you, there are v*ginal dilators that you can order online that will help you to loosen up that area of your body. They are plastic inserts, sold as a set in graduating sizes — you can start off with one with one that is only slightly uncomfortable and work your way up to a bigger size.

    • Many A's

      I often wonder what a real drive must feel like. I’ve been on BC for so long that I don’t ever really ever remember having much innate desire or drive. Maybe that’s part of how BC works… it just keeps us s**ually flatline so we are totally disinterested.

    • Anon

      I will just say that I’m on the other end of this… my SO is not interested at all in sex. He says that its not me, he just doesn’t want to, but it hurts so much. Obviously you know its an issue, and I applaud you for looking for ways to address it. But, at least for me, and probably others, its so much more than the sex. Its your partner in life, the one person who is supposed to love you unconditionally, rejecting you in the one area that truly bonds you in a totally different way than any other relationship in your life. It is heartbreaking.

      • Anon too

        Yes to this. My husband has had a low drive for years, I mean once a month is enough for him (and even going months in-between is nothing for him) and my drive is much higher. I have felt so rejected and unwanted over the years that even watching movies where passion/etc are displayed is painful for me.

      • Anon

        I found it did hurt when I was younger/we were newly dating, but now I’m just wondering if this isn’t going to work long term, because marriage is supposed to be forever, and do I want to be married to someone who doesn’t want to have sex as much as I want to? (I also know he would NOT be up for an open marriage…)

      • Anon from 8:30

        Yes to all of this. We have had sex twice in the last 6 months, and no more than 8-10 times in the last year. I go to bed, and he will stay up to “work,” but I think a lot of times it just to head off the awkwardness. We are not married, but are in a committed long term relationship. Like Anon at 12:25, I’m getting more comfortable with the idea that this may not work long term. I’m 30 years old. There is no way I can do this for 40 years. There is a group on the Experience Project called “I Live in a Sexless Marriage”, and it is essentially a place for people to share this experience, and the bit I’ve perused it, many are taking the steps after years or decades to move on and find a parter they are compatible with. It does not seem to get better for most.

        For me, its not so much the sex itself, and so I’m not sure that an open relationship would help that. I want a husband/SO, not another best friend. Its just different, and sex is a big part of that. I just don’t know sometimes…

        • anon for this

          If you are not married with kids, RUN. Seriously, only kids would keep me in a place like this.

        • also anon for this

          agreed with 8:48pm anon for this. I ended my marriage after two years of living almost exactly like you describe. It was an incredibly difficult decision, but it’s OKAY to want what you want out of a partner – sex does NOT have to be a minor thing, and do not let anyone belittle you for having your own needs and priorities. I am much happier now even though things weren’t “that bad” before.

  10. LilyB

    I’ll be spending 3 days in Monterey at the end of the month and am wondering what clothes/shoes to take. I’ve looked up the weather averages for that time of the year, looks like lows in the 40s, highs in the low 60s, but it’s always so hard for me to envision what to wear when I’m currently in a different season.

    jeans/flats/trench/ts? what about dresses with tights?

    • SFBayA

      How fun! Both of those outfits would work (I’d wear knee high flat boots with the dress and tights), but definitely bring a wool or cashmere scarf and gloves. It can get quite breezy and cool in Monterey, so layers are key and a scarf helps a lot.

    • Susie

      Sunny but cool. As far as dress, it’s a real melting pot and depends on what activities you are doing. Cannery row/aquarium/pier – very casual, touristy. There are lots of art galleries so if you’re into that bring something a tad nicer.

    • LilyB

      thanks ladies! I think I’ll take jeans, flats, my frye boots (flat but classy), a jersey dress and tights, some long-sleeve ts, and a couple scarves, plus a trench and a sweater. Very excited, I’ve never been!

  11. Brutal honesty

    Given that we’re a crowd of over-achieving women, I’m curious: How many of you feel good about your bodies? Maybe it’s an outgrowth of having high standards in general, I am quite critical of my body and always have been. My body image isn’t getting better as I mature. It’s just getting worse as I notice yet another gray hair or spot of cellulite. And I cannot figure out why I can’t just get over it. I’m healthy, I’m strong, I’m able to do lots of things. I treat my body well. Yet I feel like total sh*t that no matter how much I work out or how well I eat, I will never be a single-digit size unless I starve myself. (Don’t worry; so not going there.) It bugs the heck out of me that I have never, will never, be the pretty girl. I can look “put together” with the right clothing and grooming but even that doesn’t come naturally.

    It’s exhausting to worry about this stuff and I’d like it to stop already. I’m smart enough to know this stuff shouldn’t matter — so why does it? Has anyone ever successfully gotten over their body hang-ups?

    • LackingLuster

      Got over mine after 2 kids and now I feel amazing about my body. Sorry if that doesn’t help you but I used to be somewhat like you (though always thin). Also age. It wasn’t until the past few years (mid-thirties) that I really learned what looks good on me and what does not in terms of clothes, make up, and hairstyles, and had the confidence to stick with those things even in the face of trends. Have you looked around at real people? 90% of the world is not the “pretty girl” and most of the “pretty girls” are in their late teens or twenties. But I can look at almost everyone and find something attractive about their appearance. Don’t know if this helps, but you are right about two things– it’s exhausting to worry about it and it doesn’t matter.

    • Susie

      I try to think about my body more in terms of what it can do (I ran a 50k, who cares if I’m not tall or I have that weird flabby area between my armpit and breasts that prevent me from wearing sleeveless dresses) but … I only feel okay about my body not good. I also am not naturally graceful or put together – by midday my clothes may be wrinkled or I’ll notice a spot or static-y hair, etc. I haven’t gotten over all my body hang-ups but I did get over bulimia and am trying to cut myself more slack. Note to self – I am strong and healthy, and have a great job and family and plenty to be grateful for and happy about.

    • MB

      Overall, I feel pretty good about the way my body looks. I hate to say this, but since your post title is brutal honesty, here goes: part of the reason I feel pretty good is that I’m 15-20 lbs lighter than I was when I felt bad about myself (basically all of my teenage years and 20s).

      One thing I am happy about is my relationship with food. I used to have a really bad relationship with food. Starve, binge, guilt. Ironically enough, once I fixed my relationship with food, I lost weight. Once it stopped having a hold over me and wasn’t the focus of my life, I could eat normally when I was hungry and not eat when I wasn’t. I saw a professional therapist and that did nothing for me, but at some point, I just got sick of it and stopped letting food and weight control me.

      Its not perfect, but generally, I am satisfied with that aspect of my life.

      I have lots of other areas where I could improve. I’m nowhere near as career accomplished or overachieving as many of you seem to be. In fact, I’m probably best described as downright floundering in that regard.

    • anonforthis

      I’m in my mid-20s so probably at a different life stage than you. But I’ve really disliked my body ever since middle school. I’ve never been overweight but just never felt “slim” or “slender” or “svelte” or “skinny” or any of those wonderful “s” words.

      Maybe this will be controversial, but this is what has helped me be okay, if not totally thrilled with my body: breast implants when I was 22 (pretty conservative, usually people are very surprised if I tell them, I wear a 34D/32DD). And, in the past 6 months, I’ve lost 15 lbs. So now I’m probably considered slim (though I’m sort of hourglassy) with boobs that appear fairly large on my frame, which I guess is what many people consider ideal. I’ll never be able to change my build, but I’ve exerted control over the rest of it and I feel satisfied.

      If you don’t mind my asking, why are you sure you will never fit into a size 8? I will grant you that some people will never be a size 2 or 4, but I just don’t see why you couldn’t fit into a size 8 if you really wanted to. I’m not saying you need to lose weight to be acceptable, but if this is about weight, then lose weight.

      • long time lurker

        For someone that is very tall with large bone structure it may very well be impossible to be an 8. Or someone shorter who has larger hips, thighs, etc because of their build, despite being a healthy weight. It’s not always just about losing weight.

        Signed,
        Amazon

      • Kontraktor

        This. I used to be very athletic in high school (like activity 4-6 hours a day) and was looking at pictures of myself from then recently. Realized a couple things. 1) I was X size then, as an age 14-17 year old, working out 4+ hours a day. Liklihood of being that size again is pretty slim (because I will not work out 4+ hours a day again, nor be 15 again). 2) I wasn’t even all that toned or muscular (again, despite it all), so to expect as much from a more normal exercise routine now would probably be unrealistic. 3) I still had a thick waist and the same proportions I seem to now (just was overall smaller). It made me feel a bit better just in the sense that we all have our healthy baselines and body shapes, and sometimes no amount of working out will change it (barring becoming Olympic marathon runners or something hugely extreme). I will not suddenly have a super svelte waist just because I work out more. I will always have a large waist proportionally.

      • K in Tulsa

        I know many people whose bodies are not happy at size 8 or lower – it may be that for your build, you think it is a realistic goal (for mine it is), but it truly isn’t for everyone. There are a lot of very healthy, strong women out there who wear double digit sizes – embracing what is a happy healthy goal for your body is key, and it sounds like the OP is doing a good job there. People can be totally in shape and healthy in a huge variety of shapes and sizes.

      • Brutal honesty

        Fine, I can be an 8 “if I really want to.” That is, as long as I work out like a fiend (1+ hour a day, 7 days a week) and diet simultaneously. I have done it, and I can tell it just isn’t sustainable. I start gaining weight the moment I let up even a little bit. So, yes, I COULD be an eight but it is not my body’s natural set point, at all. I’m tall and carry all my weight in my lower body.

        • Brutal honesty

          This isn’t about losing weight, btw. My BMI and weight are perfectly average for my height/build. Sorry to get defensive, but suggesting that I should diet without knowing a single thing about my stats (other than I’m bigger than an 8) kind of blows my mind.

          • Batgirl

            Agreed! Not everyone is designed to be a certain size. And it’s really not worth twisting and contorting your life to get there if it’s just not your body. Rock on with your bad self–you sound like you’ve got it together!

          • anon

            Her advice was be skinnier and get surgery. I think you can take that with a grain of salt. This thread has been very helpful and interesting to me, thanks for starting it

    • O.

      I used to be happy with my body. Even though I’m back to my pre-pregnancy weight (which is underweight) I hate my body so much now. I can’t stand to shop for clothes and it has ruined my sex life. No advice, just commiseration.

    • Merabella

      Overall I’m pretty happy with my body. I’ve lost about 15lbs in the last 6 months, and I think that has helped. I’m not anywhere near where I would like to be in an ideal world, but I eat well and exercise (not as much as I should).

      I agree with MB – once I got over my hang ups with food I started losing weight.

      I am not 5;9″ and 125lbs, and I never will be. Accepting that about myself has really made it easier.

    • anon

      I’m 31. I am built slim/slender (size 2, usually), but I’m also pear shaped, so lots of clothes don’t work on me because my hips are bigger than they are “supposed to be” for my small waist. My waist is great, but even this small, I still have thick thighs that will never, ever slim down, even when I’m good about going to the gym. I gave up on pants and haven’t worn shorts since gym class. I also have a hate/disappointment/resignation about my 32B/32A in European brands. I hate that clothes don’t fit my chest. I hate that dresses are ALWAYS too big in the chest because my lame-ass chest is too damn small to count. I hate that lots of pretty lingerie doesn’t come in my stupid size. I try to remember that it’s nice to not need to wear a heavy-duty sports bra, be able to sleep on my stomach, and I’m never going to have to worry about gravity causing my chest to droop, but it SUCKS for society to be so focused on bust size and I’m not even in the ballpark. Sexy = boobs and I don’t have them. But there’s no way in hell that I’d get implants. It’s fine if other people do, aside from the porn star sized ones, but that’s not something for me.

      • a.

        Minor deet, but where are you looking for lingerie? I’m a 32A or B, depending on how the brand runs, and I can usually find tons of cute bras in my size. I’d be happy to give you some recs if you’d like.

      • anon

        I am exactly the same size, shape and age as you are, and I share your frustrations on the thigh and cup sizes. I don’t even want to lose weight — I just wish I could reshape my body to fit cultural standards. I work out five days a week, but even that won’t make me proportional. And then I hate myself for feeling that way.

        • anon

          Right, I don’t want to lose weight either. I’d even be delighted to be the same size on the bottom if I could just add some to the top. What I wouldn’t give to be a natural 32C/34B. I daydream that pregnancy and nursing will do it.

          • anon

            I am pretty much the same size as you, and I also have trouble with everything you mentioned. I am a few years older (35), and I have mostly figured out at this point which kind of clothes look ok on my body type. It does take time though. I feel like shopping takes so much more time for someone with this body type, and my choices are so much more limited. I still am not totally happy with the lingerie situation though.

      • techie

        I hear you. I have exactly your body. Slender with a tiny waist (also size 2 in most skirts/pants) yet pear shape and no chest. I haven’t worn shorts since college. Dresses are impossible. I still don’t have a single bra I feel good in. Multiple men have hinted to me that men prefer a bit more “weight”… but sorry idiot…. If I gain weight, it all goes to my thighs not my boobs.

        And I’m 43 and I still haven’t learned how to dress for my shape yet. If you guys have a favorite blog/reference do tell….

        It was worse when I was younger though….. then my acne was terrible and some days I didn’t want to leave the house. Ugh… while I do wish I had a figure more like a woman, the acne was still the worst.

        I have a terrible insecurity complex about my looks. I am incredibly smart and successful in so many ways with higher degrees from 3 IVY league schools, but without your looks….. as a woman, you are invisible.

      • Anonymous

        i’m slightly younger, but i have a similar build. i find i have to get a lot of things tailored in order for them to truly fit properly and look good. but it’s expensive!

        i’ve made my peace with the small chest, though. like you, sports bras aren’t an issue, i can comfortably sleep on my stomach, and i’m not worried about gravity–there’s not much to pull down. the problem is that i’m a 30A, and it’s a pain to find. if i do, they are often meant for “developing” girls and more training bra-like, so the fit is a little off.

        i just try to keep my weight steady so as to not throw things off further.

      • anon.

        i’m slightly younger, but i have a similar build. i find i have to get a lot of things tailored in order for them to truly fit properly and look good. but it’s expensive!

        i’ve made my peace with the small chest, though. like you, sports bras aren’t an issue, i can comfortably sleep on my stomach, and i’m not worried about gravity–there’s not much to pull down. the problem is that i’m a 30A, and it’s a pain to find. if i do, they are often meant for “developing” girls and more training bra-like, so the fit is a little off.

        i just try to keep my weight steady so as to not throw things off further.

    • long time lurker

      I am generally OK with myself. I am a healthy weight according to the doctor. I could lose 10 lbs (I’m tall) and look a little better, and there are times in my life when I do lose those lbs but its hard to maintain. I eat healthy, exercise at the gym a few times a week and walk a lot, but I must be honest: I don’ t love spending hours exercising and I like good food. I don’t eat junk or processed stuff, but I am a foodie, I love my wine, I love my cheese. While someone else would value a completely flat stomach over things i enjoy eating, I realized I don’t. And it is freeing.

      I’m not going to be a tiny petite thing unless I remove some ribs and chop off my legs at the shin, and I’m OK with it. You only get one life to live. I think some of this comes with age. I definitely had more issues in my 20s and compared myself to other women (i’m late thirties now).

      • Kontraktor

        I feel this way too. I loooooooove food. I similarly eat very little that is processed but I love good food and restaurants/etc. And I looooooove to eat all that yummy food. I think I could do with a bit more strenuous activity in life (ie regular running/workouts 3+ days a week), but I too feel like I would just rather trade the 5-10 lbs extra on my baseline weight of fluff for the ability to just eat more. To get rid of that 5-10 lb means a lot of sacrifice and effort that may not be worth it.

    • a.

      You do not have to feel this way and you can absolutely change your relationship with your body.

      In high school, I hated my body. Hated it. I would spend hours in front of the mirror, picking faults with everything I saw–my hips were too big, my thighs touched, I had some acne on my back, I didn’t have a six-pack, my hipbones didn’t stick out. Seriously, this was a thing I hated about my body: that my hipbones did not protrude when I was standing straight up. Long story short, I wound up with an eating disorder, and to absolutely no one’s surprise, even after I lost X pounds, I *still* hated my body. The amount of self-hatred I felt during that awful f***ing time I really struggle to put into words.

      But one day I realized that I could. not. live. like. that. anymore. and that this had to STOP. (Wanting to eat a hamburger was involved with this epiphany.) Looking back, I can identify a couple of things that I did for myself, that I think helped me get to a point where I could start rebooting my relationship with my body.

      1. I stopped looking in full-length mirrors. I probably did not see my entire body for three months. This cut out a lot of my ability to self-criticize–it’s harder to nitpick what you can’t see. So much of my self-hatred was tied into my marathon mirror sessions, that this was pretty important for me as a kind of triage measure.
      2. I stopped weighing myself, ever (I still sometimes close my eyes on the scale at the doctor’s office) and thus prevented an arbitrary number on a scale from defining whether or not I was allowed to like myself (pro tip: I was never allowed to like myself).
      3. I figured out how to dress myself in a way that I found figure-flattering, and in a way that made me feel pretty. Sounds shallow but there it is.
      4. That thing many women do, where we say “I’m so fat today,” or “My ankles are bloated thus I am a whale, you are so skinny, how do you do it”–I stopped doing it and refused to participate in it. It was a long time before I could think or say anything *nice* about my body, but I figured I could at least quit trash-talking it at every opportunity.

      As of now, five or six years later, I can honestly say I have a great relationship with my body. It’s not perfect, but I’m not getting another one, so we had to figure out how to coexist harmoniously. It’s taken a lot of hard, hard mental work to get to this point (with many a slip backwards along the way). But it is possible. You do not have to, and should not, hate your body because it does not conform to our society’s oppressively rigid standards of beauty. END NOVEL

      • layered bob

        yep. after recovering from my eating disorder, I decided I would never say another mean thing about my body or anyone else’s body. In fact, I decided I would never say anything, period, about anyone’s body. When other women say, “I wish I had your X,” I reply “thanks,” but give a non-body based compliment in reply. When other women complain about their X, I change the subject. I had to learn new ways of bonding/relating to my friends besides complaining about our bodies, but it has been probably 10 years since I made an appearance-related comment.

        n.b. I do use “feeling” words – like, “I feel energetic and powerful today,” or “I feel tired and sluggish today” – and sometimes that’s related to my outfit or diet, but it’s not judgmental about my appearance.

      • Need to Improve

        Agree, agree, agree to all of this. I could have written it. You have to cut out the habits that allow you to spiral into criticism and self-hatred. I never look at the scale at the doctor’s office, to this day. And I try to be extra gentle about places like shopping center dressing rooms with atrocious lighting. Don’t spend hours in front of the mirror. When a voice inside tells you “you are fat,” thank it for its opinion and recognize that you don’t have to listen to that voice.

        The saddest thing is that I was so hard on myself during my teens and early 20s that I completely failed to see that I was beautiful. That “you are fat” voice was totally unconnected to reality. I was fixated instead on every little preceived flaw, and it occupied way too much mental space. I was in chains.

        I hope you can find some freedom from self-criticism. It is not easy. I read a really cheesy but great book about this called The Gift of Our Compulsions.

      • Cb

        Thanks for sharing this! I had an eating disorder as a teen and while I haven’t quite come to terms with my body, I refuse to engage in this body talk circle. I’ve lost a lot of weight recently and I hate the commentary that comes with it. Tell me that I look happy or that you like my dress but the rest of it really isn’t helpful.

      • Eleanor

        a, this is awesome. That sounds really difficult, but I’m so impressed you were able to get through that situation and to a better place.

        It really bothers me when I hear women make those kinds of casually negative comments about their bodies (“I am such a fatty”) – those don’t help anyone, not the woman making them or the woman she’s talking to.

    • Greener Apple

      Louise Brealey wrote a good piece on body issues (and nudity)–http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/arts/stage/theatre/article3626894.ece–that I’ve been thinking about.

      I don’t really expect to be happy with how I look–it doesn’t matter what I weigh or how fast I run or how smooth I can get my hair, because I’m pretty sure at this point that I’ll always come up with something to dislike. And even on a day when I’m not thinking about it that much, someone else probably is. The only time I felt fairly confident that I was working for someone who really didn’t care what I looked like or wore was when my boss was legally blind.

      It’s weird sometimes to think about how many of my major life decisions have been based on my looks–either how I felt about my looks or how someone else did. I just read somewhere (can’t find it at the moment) that while executive pay for men has been linked to height, it’s actually more accurate to link it to what their height was when they were 16. Their actual height doesn’t matter so much. What does matter is how they perceived themselves during their formative years.

    • Anon

      One good thing about always having been fat is that my body has never met societal standards of beauty and therefore aging out of societal standards of youthful beauty is less traumatic. Maybe not for everyone, but that’s been my experience.

      And to answer your question, I am happy with my body.

      • mama of 2

        Yup. I have always been fat. And getting older (or pregnant, or fatter, or whatever) just isn’t all that important to me because my self-worth has never been about my body. When your body never gives you self-esteem, you learn to find it in other places — and it turns out that other places are much more sustaining sources of self-worth.

      • Anon for this

        I was always overweight and finally had weight loss surgery in my late 40s and got thin. Honestly, I think I look better in my early 50s than I ever have, and I’m certainly happier with my body than I’ve ever been (saggy skin notwithstanding). It’s kind of awesome and I’m kind of glad I don’t have to look back and think about how much better I looked when i was young.

      • Anon

        Yes. I’ve always been slender and attractive and now that I am getting older I am realizing how much of my self worth depended on my looks, which are fading by the day. Losing ones beauty is painful, as is any loss.

        • anon

          yes, i actually relate to this so much. i cant tell if the comment was intended to be snarky, but it really is true. and it is horrible because there is no way to hold on to your looks. some things might work to slowly stave off the years (botox, fillers), but it has become clear to me that i need to learn to find a source of self worth elsewhere. i wonder if being a mom works for some people as that alternate source. i dont have kids, so i dont know. i guess i need to find a hobby. i dont know. suggestions would be welcome, so i can find some way to handle without turning into a sad and maybe slightly bitter old lady.

    • ohc

      I go back and forth. For what it’s worth–and I say this to be candid, not to humblebrag–if we met in person you would probably think of me as one of the pretty girls. I’m in my mid-twenties and I have a lot of good genetics in my favor, and I don’t think there’s any point in beating that around the bush. (However, I am still hyper-aware of the fact that my sister is drop dead gorgeous by any definition, so she makes me feel very plain by comparison–it’s all relative!)

      That said, as a pretty consistently non-athletic person, I’m very aware of my body’s limitations. I’ve just started bike commuting, and at first I was a little bit scared and embarrassed–I insisted on doing my first big cross-city ride by myself because if I failed or fell or had to stop and rest I didn’t want my boyfriend to witness my “weakness”. Now that I’m feeling more confident about being able to get around, though, I’m trying to get a healthier perspective on what it means to exert myself or breathe heavily or have my face get flushed–it doesn’t mean that I’m out of shape, it means that I’m *trying*. And that’s the important part.

      • Anonymous

        Ugh, your second paragraph in no way justified your first. That wasn’t a ‘humblebrag,’ by the way — it was a straight up ‘brag.’

        • Blonde Lawyer

          Um, pretty sure she answered the question that was asked. Not everyone hates how they look and those that like how they look *may* even find themselves attractive, heaven forbid.

      • MB

        Seriously! A person is allowed to think / know they are attractive. It’s far more obnoxious to be critical over minor, non- flaws if you are indeed good looking or attractive. You are allowed to recognize and be grateful for the good things you have.

    • L

      Here’s honesty. I’ve never liked my body. Ever. I’ve spent my entire life hating how I look (overall) and it is exhausting. I finally said f it and decided I’d just run myself into the ground (no gym, eat crap, whatever) it “didn’t matter” because I wasn’t going to like what I saw and I might as well “enjoy” what I could. That attitude caused me to gain close to 50 pounds in a year and be in some of the worst health I’ve ever been.

      Finally, somewhere in the hot mess of “it didn’t matter” I realized I was sick of being miserable. I only have one body and I may not like it, but I should respect it. I may look like a hot mess (currently wrinkled dress, rumpled hair and a mean breakout going on), but I finally feel better about myself then when I weighed about 80 pounds less than I currently do. Accepting my body is what I’m stuck with has helped me immensely. I don’t have to “look” perfect by anyone’s standards (including my own), but I deserve to take control of my body and treat it and myself with some dignity. Now I don’t obsess over every little detail, am working out, eating better, and slowly chipping away at the damage.

      Sorry to write a novel, but the end point is you’re stuck with what you have. You can spend all your energy fighting it or figure out how to make yourself happy (and healthy). If that means surgery and hair dye then go for it. If it means saying f it I’m cutting the tags out of my jeans so I quit obsessing, do it! Life is too short so either say I’m going all out and going to tackle X, Y, Z or go all out and accept yourself.

    • kerrycontrary

      Honestly, if you are feeling this poorly about yourself and your body I would speak to a therapist. Some days I like my body, some days I don’t. But on days I don’t I know that I just need to stop looking in the mirror and think about something else. I’m one of those people that can looking stunning if I spend a ton of time getting ready, and I can look really really ugly if I don’t. I’ll never look good when I roll out of bed. But who cares! 95% of people don’t!! Life isn’t fair, we can’t all by the pretty girl. I would stop looking in mirrors, stop thinking negative thoughts about yourself, and get yourself to therapy because life is too short to spend time hating yourself.

      • Susie

        Therapy did not work for me (first and only time I tried was for body image issues), because I knew what I “should” say and stuck with that. I find talking to my mom or trusted friends to be much more helpful.

        • Susie

          ETA – just want to clarify in case my post came accross as critical of kerry’s suggestion, that was not my intent just throwing out my personal experience as an alternative. Different strokes and whatnot.

    • Cornellian

      I’ve gotten much better with hang-ups, but a sizeable portion of me still thinks I look better at 90 lbs. Even though i have picutres of myself even 10 lbs less and a 00 and I look scary. There my sad honesty for the day.

    • chocochat

      Why can’t smart, overachieving women get past matters of appearance you asked? For me, it’s because we’re conflicted about what to value. I spent years trying to accomplish things, only to be told repeatedly by family, peers, romantic interests, media, and such that all my accomplishments do not matter because I’m “not pretty enough”. It’s like I’ve valued the wrong things all along.

      I am lucky – it took me very little time and effort to grow out of that phase, and start focusing my efforts on something else. I thought of it in ROI: spending time and efforts on looks will only get me so far regardless of how hard I try, while each additional investment in something else (career, friendship, helping others) yields so much more satisfaction. I also chose to hang out with people who value the same thing I do, and aren’t obsessed about appearance. That proved to be the biggest blessing of it all.

      • Anon

        Any advice on how you used non-looks based methods to find a mate? As a single woman, some of the big messages are:

        1. Choosing well for a mate is an important life decision.
        2. Married people are happier and wealthier.
        3. Men are focused on looks.

        • a.

          Erm, talk to people you like and are attracted to? Become involved in things you care about? Tell your friends you’d be okay with being set up? It’s not as if you have to hit a certain hotness standard to date or be married. Sorry if that sounds flip but I really don’t even know what a “non-looks based method” to find a mate would be–obviously people are going to see you, because they have eyeballs, but that’s hardly the be-all end-all.

        • chocochat

          I think the “men are focused on looks” message has major flaws with it
          1) It makes all of us feel bad because by that logic no matter how hard we try our SOs will never give us as much attention as they do a picture of Charlize Theron.
          2) It assumes men set the rules of the game, and you play by those rules. Wrong. Women and men (we’re talking heterosexual relationships here) both set the rules. So the real question is not what men want, but what you want in a mate, a relationship. Then find different ways to meet men and see which one(s) play well with your rules.

          We often talk about gender equality in a professional context. How about gender equality in relationships, where we actually have as much power and influence as men do?

    • Gail the Goldfish

      I’m fine with my body, it’s my skin I hate. You would think I would eventually age out of acne, or that frequent trips to the dermatologist would help, but no, my face continues to break out like I’m 14.

      • Kontraktor

        I hate my skin too. I wish I could melt my face off. :-) I would love a chemical peel but it is so tough to research what type would be good and even tougher to find a derm who approaches the subject reasonably and treats the process as a medical treatment for which you need to find the right one for the patient. Seems like so many derms I meet either a) don’t really care about actually treating my acne and just throw me whatever latest drug is cool despite my lengthy history or b) are so focussed on the shallow cosmetic aspect (like Beverly Hills housewife focus) that they act as if the fancy diamond sand majikal komodo dragon peel of the celebs is my key to being cured. Where are the derms who will respect my medical history and help to treat my scarring and acne as a matter of fact medical issue??

      • Anon

        This. I’ve struggled with terrible acne since my early teens. I’m pretty sure I tried every available prescription and over-the-counter acne medication – topical and oral. In undergrad, I finally found a dermatologist who put me on Accutane. It wasn’t a silver bullet, but it cleared things up a little bit. To this day, I still have issues with acne. I’ve gotten really good at working with cover-up.

        I spent years trying to figure out why I had such terrible skin. This fall, I was diagnosed with polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and the pieces all came together. Excessive, long-time acne – even into adulthood – is a major symptom of PCOS. I can’t believe how many dermatologists I saw without a single one ever considering testing for it. I think it is because I don’t exhibit any of the other typical outward symptoms (overweight, excessive hair, masculine features), but my OB-GYN caught it almost immediately when I went to her with other symptoms (irregular cycle, infertility). If you are still having issues with adult acne, I’d suggest doing a bit of research to see if PCOS or another hormonal issue could be a contributing factor.

      • springtime

        That’s me. I used to cry about my skin. I went on Accutane and it helped a tonne. I sometimes consider one more round to really knock out the acne but I don’t want my skin to be super dry.

        I’m lucky that I have generally been happy with my body. I did go through a phase in HS where I starved myself because I went on BC (for health reasons) and was afraid I would gain weight.

        • Chilled Coyote

          I’ve had three courses of Accutane, one in high school, and then two more at age 22. My skin is pretty decent these days in terms of acne (at 33), but I have some discoloration from pregnancy. I’ve thought about trying to get some kind of laser treatment for it, and then I decided I probably didn’t care enough to spend that kind of money on it.

          I would LOVE to get some discipline back in terms of working out and not stress-eating, but I’m now in my 3rd year of public accounting and the hours are beginning to kill my resolve to do much of anything. I keep thinking that the exercise and eating only when I’m hungry are higher on the hierarchy of needs than I currently have the energy to address, but I’m not sure it’s going to get better anytime soon! Perhaps it’s time for me to re-prioritize my life.

    • anon

      I can honestly say I love my body the way it is. I check myself out in the mirror once in a while and like the way I look. I’m not perfect, but I honestly don’t expect myself to be. I think it comes down to taking care of yourself and having a healthy attitude and self-esteem.

    • Divaliscious11

      I’ve always been pretty comfy with my body, but not so much lately. I need to lose 10-20 lbs (health reasons/knees), and until I make the effort its hard to feel comfy when parts of you hurt. I’m lucky that I am tall and I like my shape (slim but curvy) and I generally put on weight proportionally, but I need to get it together. But this body is amazing – it created, nurtured, birthed and nourished two amazing little people and seems to bring my husband lots of enjoyment….

      My one real vanity is that I can’t stand my grey hair, which I have had some since age 18, so I DO color. I’ll get over that, but probably not for some time….

    • Calibrachoa

      I feel pretty good about my body thanks to working actively to undo the damage of years# worth of societal pressure has done. Once I realized theproblem was not me, it was society’s narrow-mindedness and bigotry, my overall well being improved greatly.

      I recommend reading up on body positivity for everyone.

    • NYNY

      I think for a lot of people (not just women), it’s a matter of body acceptance more than body love. I struggled with body image problems and a multifaceted eating disorder (bulimia, exercise bulimia, anorexia) for most of my teens and twenties. I was bright, well-liked, talented, but my entire self-image was based on numbers on a scale or size tag on my clothes.

      It took years of work, including therapy, to get beyond that. I no longer own a scale, and I find that it’s easy to slip back into body judgement when I’m under stress, but for me, at least, the biggest step in getting over it was learning to love myself and accept my body as a part of myself. These days, I generally am okay with my body. I may wish for smaller thighs, but I learned to love a lot of things about my body; the squareness of my shoulders, the strength of my legs, the curve of my ass…

      But mostly, I’ve learned that my happiness is my true measure. Not my looks, not my salary, not my possessions. When I hated my body, I hated myself. When I love myself, I’m fine with my body.

    • anon

      I grew up playing competitive sports so always saw my body in terms of what it can do, not just what it looks like. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve gained more weight and my body has changed. That’s been hard for me to accept, but one thing that has helped me is to me is practicing yoga. Yoga is so good for changing the way I experience my own body – you learn to feel present in your own body, and to be aware of each part of your body, what feels good, what doesn’t. You learn to accept your body as a gift, and to feel alive in it, and just grateful to be healthy and moving. Yoga has helped me to be accepting of myself and is so good for stress. I always feel like my mind is smoothed out afterwards. Different things work for different people but yoga is great, even if you’re not into sports. Lots of different kinds of people get into it.

    • Miss Rumphius

      Late to comment, but you might find this post interesting: http://rosiemolinary.com/2013/02/24/the-weekly-spark-watch-your-impact/ The point she makes that really struck home with me is how much time we can spend berating and disliking our bodies, how much we allow this to hold us back, and how effectively that time could be used elsewhere.

      While I wouldn’t say that my body image is anywhere near perfect, it’s light years away from the times when I would yell at myself, in the mirror, for eating cookies, shaming myself when I couldn’t exert perfect control over what I ate. And honestly, it makes me really sad to look back and remember speaking to myself that way instead of giving myself more grace. Making the decision to move away from that overly critical place has been challenging, but worth it. As others have said, once you try and steer yourself away from body-shaming conversations, it’s incredible to realize how prevalent they are.

  12. katyperry

    Spanks! Spanks! Spanks!

    I’ve worn spanks tights and stockings for years now, but I just started exploring all of their other stuff. . . .and its amazing!!!
    the br@ feels like you are wearing nothing and confirms to your body so no slippage of straps etc. I got a full slip and a cami (actually these are Assets, which is nearly half the price), both of which hold you in without making it so you can’t breath. The under pants are great when you dont want to wear the ones that come down your thighs — like in the summer, or under tights that are not spanks. And finally, i got a pair of the casual flowey slacks that come with built in shape wear. These are amazing and so, so much better than yoga pants i normally wear on the weekends. throw them on with a comfy cashmere sweater and you look totally put together but feel like you are wearing jammies.

    an no, i dont work for spanks or anything affiliated with the company — i just fell in love with the products.

    • saacnmama

      Talk about hating your body! Did you mean for this to be at the end of that thread?

  13. Orange

    Hello ladies,

    I was the one who asked a few weeks ago about moving to Chicago and nearby areas.

    Some of you offered to email me. I would love to find out about areas where it will be easy tp have two cars and find a day care, all within 15-20 minutes ( driving or transportation) into the loop.

    My email is orangelemonade330@gmail.com

    Thanks in advance.

  14. Anon

    Any advice for how to protect your reputation when you’re put on a project where you’re given too much responsibility and not enough authority? I was given the lead on a project that was consistently mentioned as a “top priority” and one that had “very high visibility.” But, despite numerous requests, I was never given the authority or assistance I needed to actually execute the phases of the project. I’ve documented everything I’ve done, and everything I’ve tried to do, but I recently heard that management is upset with me for how long this is taking. My own boss, meanwhile, says she thinks I’ve definitely been doing everything I can but is still unwilling to stand up for me. I am so frustrated that I’ve been working so hard but the perception is that I’ve been doing nothing and my own boss agrees with me but isn’t willing to help me out. I am so angry right now I feel like throwing my various desk accessories across the room.

    • Anon

      Who is able to grant your more authority or who is ultimately responsible for the project? I would try to meet with that person, with your boss’s knowledge or presence, and explain the issues that you’re facing and how you could solve them if you could make certain things happen. If your boss isn’t being helpful, you need to get things rolling yourself. It’s a know your environment type of thing, for sure.

  15. R in Boston

    I am feeling kind of out of it today, but have a big dinner to go to tonight. I was thinking of stopping at the department store by my office and having my make-up done on the way, both as a pick me up and so I won’t look as blah as I feel. I’ve never had my make-up done at a counter other than to test products I was specifically intending to buy. Is there usually a fee if you don’t intend to buy any of the products? Do you just have to buy some stuff? How do I go about this?

    • AIMS

      There’s no fee but it’s polite to buy something since the make up folks have to report their sales figures. I would say you can just buy a lipstick.

    • Backgrounder

      I recently had my makeup done for a special event. I went to the Bobbi Brown counter in Macy’s and they charged $50 but it was a “credit” towards makeup/products. I really liked the results – although, to my chagrin, I can’t reproduce the exact look at home (grrr) – but I went away with some good products (e.g. BB longwear eyeliner and a nice black raspberry lipstick).

  16. ohc

    Well, it’s decided: I need to start looking for a new job.

    There’s nothing really wrong with the job that I have now, but I’m in a weird in-between space and I got confirmation today that no matter how much the company likes me, they can’t really do anything to get me out of limbo. I’m realizing today that it’s *my* responsibility to get out of this gray area, and if that means leaving, then so be it.

    Full context: I was hired for an assistant-level position straight out of college, did beautifully, and got an internal promotion, which is pretty much unheard of in my industry. Unfortunately, there’s really no mechanism for my continued movement up the ladder here–the company just isn’t structured for it–and I’ve now been serving as one senior person’s assistant for almost four years in addition to all my new independent responsibilities.

    I am no longer interested in being an assistant, and I had hoped that there might be a way for me to transition completely out of that role. Don’t think so–the head of my department told me today that we just aren’t in a position to hire someone else to take over my assistant responsibilities.

    Sigh. There are a lot of things that I have liked about working here, and a lot of things that I don’t need to deal with ever again, but gosh, embarking on a job search feels so daunting. Somehow it feels especially daunting as this kind of mid-level candidate–I don’t have enough experience for the senior positions that most interest me, but I’m done being at the bottom of the totem pole. Onward, I say!

    • East Coast Anon

      Yes, onward! We are responsible for managing our own careers. It is not up to a company to do so. Good for you for realizing it’s time to move on before any bitterness sets in.

  17. anon

    So DH was laid off, but luckily has had some interviews this week for some interesting jobs. Two would probably require a car. We currently do not have one (live in DC). Money is extremely tight right now, and one of those job offers does not offer a lot, less than he was making. Any suggestions for first time car buyers on a budget? I honestly know nothing about the process. (Do you take out a loan? Make payments directly to the dealer?) we’d prob be looking at used but I understand that market is actually still pretty expensive. Would love any thoughts/advice you have- especially about particular brands/models

    • Anon

      In my opinion, the best thing to do is to pay cash for a used car. If you can’t do that, then talk to your bank about getting a loan and see if the rate is good. Sometimes, if you have good credit, the dealer can offer a better deal, but typically you will get a better rate from your bank or credit union.

      I am partial to Hondas and Toyotas, but that is because I have been driving my same Civic for a very long time :)

      • anon

        civic was my first car! and I loved it. We def can’t do cash for a car (I can feel my dad’s disapproval from here :) But thanks for the bank loan suggestion, we will look into that.

      • mama of 2

        YMMV, though – I think on used cars, you’ll get a better rate through a bank loan, but for new cars, we found that the bank rate was anywhere from 1-3 percent higher than the very low rates offered by the dealers.

    • TBK

      Google Kelly Blue Book. This has a listing of new and used cars and their approximate market value. There is also a tool online (I forget its name — try Googling around for it) where you can see what buyers actually paid for specific cars in your area in the last month or whatever. Once you know what cars SHOULD cost, you can go to the dealership armed and ready to haggle. As for financing, check with your bank and get a sense of what kind of loan they can offer you. Then see what the dealership can offer (they often have their own financing). If haggling over price doesn’t appeal to you, see if your bank or credit union offers a buying service. They’ll do the haggling for you.

    • L

      So I love Toyotas (older models) and have successfully run those and hondas into the ground. the post above is exactly spot on – go to a bank and then the dealer.

      I find it helpful to figure out what you can afford per month and then go from there. A lot of times you’ll get pre-qualified for way more than you want and then you start looking at cars in that range and realize it’s more than you want to spend (per month.)

      Also, factor insurance into the equation. Once you’re seriously considering a car (or two) call up your insurance company (or several if you don’t have any policies that you could tack auto on to) and get quotes.

    • Westraye

      Went through this last year. We bought from what we were told was a reputable dealer, and I think we went to every single used car lot in the city to compare prices. I think you’d probably get a better deal going personal sale (instead of a dealer) but as a first time used car buyer, a dealer made me more comfortable.

      Here’s tips that helped us or that wish I’d done:

      1) Check out repair costs/finicky things about the car you want. We bought a car that my husband was partial to, but we continue to have tiny problems with it that cost $100 here, $100 there. A quick internet search told us these were common. Don’t think I could have talked my husband out of it, but it would have been nice to know.

      2) Take the car BOTH to a mechanic and an auto body guy. We took it to a mechanic before buying so we knew we were getting a good car, but not an auto body guy. Turns out the car had been involved in an accident and the repairs on the body had been done poorly. The Carfax said no accident – the autobody guy we eventually saw (long after we bought the car) noticed the problem immediately. Do both.

      3) Factor taxes into your budget if you’re going to a dealer. Stupid that I didn’t, but it added a couple of grand to our final cost, which would have gotten us a nicer car if we’d bought from someone directly.

      4) if possible, buy for the car you will need in 3 years. We bought a smaller car, but our lifestyle is such that a station wagon type would have been better. We’re likely going to have to sell/buy another soon since the car just doesn’t fit our lifestyle, but it was what we could afford at the time. Long term, would have been better to spend the extra 10% and get a bigger car from the beginning.

      Good luck!

    • InfoGeek

      If you need a loan, check around with banks, credit unions, AAA, etc. (If the credit union requires you to open an account to get the loan, ask what the minimum is.) It’s not like there is a standard rate. The dealership may offer you a loan, but it may not be the best deal for you. If you don’t get the loan through the dealer, ask what their limits are on loans for used cars (they may only give loans for the most recent 10 model years, for example).

      Get the loan for as short a time period as you can afford. Watch it — I’ve seen many dealers offering loans for 5-6 years for a car. That’s a LONG loan for a car.

      Remember that in addition to the loan payment, you’ll have to pay for gas and insurance (and tolls?) and routine maintenance like oil changes and tire rotations.

      When you get a price for the car, call your insurance agent and get an estimate on the insurance. Again, insurance came vary pretty widely by car, depending on the likelihood of theft, how easy it easy to repair, etc.

      • Anon

        This– when I bought my last car, the salesman insisted on working in terms of monthly payments (tell me what you can afford monthly, and I’ll find you a deal). Uhhhh no. I want to know the total sales price for the car. Not that its only $200 a month, and then later find out that its a five year loan.

  18. Lurker with a question

    TJ – I’m a long time lurker and I think all of you ladies offer wonderful advice. I was wondering if I can get some input on work clothing. I recently bought a Raulph Lauren dress, 3/4 sleeve, v neck, polyester material (I apologize, I could not find a link). I normally like to wear lined dresses to work. I work in a very conservative environment. I’m trying to figure out if the dress I bought would be appropriate for work. My boss wore a similar dress not too long ago, but I am concerned because the polyester makes the dress form fitting. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I thought about maybe wearing it with a jacket/blazer, but it didn’t look good with the polyester material of the dress.

    • momentsofabsurdity

      Would wearing it with a slip be possible, since it isn’t lined? I think without seeing the dress, it’s tough to give a judgment on if it’s appropriate for work or not.

    • Susie

      I would wear this to my office, but probably not to what I would consider a “very conservative environment.” Know your office obviously but my instinct says save it for after-hours. I agree, I don’t see this working with a blazer but I’m kind of a newbie when it comes to making blazers work.

      • Cat

        I don’t see this working with a blazer either – the stretchiness just isn’t the same “feel.” Fit around the butt is where I’m always the most worried when shopping for dresses like this — if the skirt material doesn’t hang straight down (or nearly straight down, I don’t think showing a little shape is automatically inappropriate) from the outer curve of my butt, but instead “follows” my butt to my upper thigh, then it’s an after-work outfit only.

    • Lurker with a question

      Thanks ladies for all of the replies. I will keep the dress in my wardrobe, but not for work.

  19. Frustrated

    I would just like to say that I hate how snobby the legal profession can be. I’ve accepted a job I’m really excited about, but my fellow law school students keep giving me a hard time about the practice area. Apparently this particular practice area (think immigration/employment/trusts&estates) is less “prestigious” than “what you could have done” (think M&A/securities reg/capital markets). Never mind that it’s an area I’m actually interested in.

    Now, I know these are generally nice people, but this is starting to really frustrate me. Why do law students and lawyers constantly feel the need to find new ways to rank themselves? Is the snobbery really necessary? Ugh. Sorry you guys. Rant over. Otherwise it’s been a great week!

    • Cat

      ugh, don’t let it get to you. there’s nowhere to stop with these kinds of comparisons although they do seem to decrease with time! you’ll probably have more predictable hours and the ability to plan vacations, even if you’re not working on the “glamorous” projects (ha – as first years mr. and ms. prestigious will be busy waiting to get signature pages to organize at 3am and competing with each other as to whose organizing efforts are for the biggest deal). you might not get the sky-high hours and corresponding bonus, but if you’re happy with your choice of practice area and have a relatively sane lawyer life, who’s laughing now?

    • Monday

      Just know that this kind of snobbery is absolutely not confined to the legal field only. I think just about every profession has some degree of acknowledged rankings across its sub-areas, and in every case those with the higher-prestige practices can patronize everyone else if they want to be jerks. Nevermind that not everyone actually envies their jobs or even would take them if offered–they like to think that is the case. JSFAMO

    • Susie

      Trusts & Estates really is different, much more so than employment or immigration. For one thing, most BigLaw firms have no or very small practice groups, usually only in 2 offices. The majority of T&E attorneys are solo or very small firm. The exit options are very limited, you either hang your own shingle or possibly work for the trust department of a bank or planned giving department of a school or charity. The lifestyle is good, but yes I would agree it is for the most part not prestigious, which may not matter for you. I did T&E out of law school – and got out of it. If this is the area you’re looking at and have questions I’m happy to share my experience.

      • Frustrated

        I’m actually going into one of the other two areas, but thank you for sharing your experience! Since I know someone who is going into T&E I will tell her about your post so that she can follow up with questions if she has any.

        • Anon

          I’m in one of the other two too. Why not do what you love? I do get some questions from people who don’t know me well asking if it was what I wanted to do. I say yes, and it is amazing to get paid to do something I’m actually interested in doing. Good luck!

      • Boston 1L

        I’m a law student interested in Trusts & Estates and would like to hear more about your experiences

        I think it is interesting, because many attorneys I speak with say that, if they could do it again, they would choose to work in T&E.

    • anon

      Ha — I do torts and my husband does antitrust. Everyone thinks his is such a more prestigious job (including a number of his co-workers), but I get the last laugh, because after 20 years, it’s quite apparent my job is more exciting, I have better cases, I have better flexibility, and so much more. People scratched their heads when I took this path, but it was exactly what I wanted to do. I love my work, and FOOEY on those who think torts is not high-brow. It’s an exciting practice and I love it.

    • Maribel

      You will get the job and meet new people and soon you won’t care at all about the law school losers.

    • JJ

      I’m at a specialty labor & employment firm and I’m so happy with my practice, doing what I enjoy, and the vast majority of my fellow law students who went to NY to do Capital Markets and M&A work are either miserable or no longer practicing law (and spent the past 5 years doing nothing but due diligence or doc review). Whereas, I have a federal jury trial in two weeks that I am in charge of.

      Law school sucks. A lot of law students suck (seriously, what made us think we were such hot shots??) Do what makes you happy in the long term.

    • Frustrated

      Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has replied so far. It does help to hear different perspectives, and you guys have made me feel better about my choice. I summered in this practice area and really did love the experience. It was just getting me down a bit to hear everyone slamming the work. Thanks again!

    • Anon

      The thing is, you have to do what you enjoy. These a-holes have no idea what it is like to really work, let alone work in any specific area. I would rather burn my flesh off than work in M&As or corporate litigation. I don’t think these areas are necessarily prestigious or important. The best response is to say, “Good for you for finding what you enjoy! That kind of work is not for me. And I lurrve what I’m doing!” End of discussion. Do not elaborate. It will get easier as you get older and more settled in your career and develop more confidence about the choices you’ve made. I promise.

    • Anon for This

      It is their own insecurity showing through.

      I currently practise in one of the less prestigious areas. I love it. The bar is very collegial and the people at my firm are first class. At the end of the day we usually do something that has a good impact on an individual’s life. We will never be ridiculously rich, but we do earn a decent enough wage.

      I used to work in one of the other practise areas that the snobs would have liked. I hated every second. Constant chest-beating and competition with other associates. There was never any control over the hours and apart from the deals getting reported in the news, there was no personal satisfaction for me.

    • Anon

      You’ll get the last laugh when you have an easier time going in-house if employment is your area.

  20. Hilton Head?

    Anyone here familiar with Hilton Head, specifically the Sea Pines Plantation area? I’m thinking about renting a house there for a week, and while the pictures of the house look really nice, I have no idea if Sea Pines Plantation is a good location within Hilton Head.

  21. Body Language

    I stumble across this video on body language and its effects on confidence level. Thought you guys might be interested.

    www [dot] ted [dot] com / talks /amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are [dot] html

  22. mbs

    I need internet dating advice again. If you haven’t seen my cries for help in the past, I’m 52, and this is my first foray into the internet dating world. After sifting through emails from shirtless and “just separated” (i.e., Married) middle-aged men, I finally responded to an email from a guy on Match.com who seems nice, but in his second email, he suggested we meet. Isn’t that way to soon? Is it rude to ask for a last name and place of employment before actually meeting? I’d like to get a SSN for a thorough background check, but that’s probably out of line, right? I just want to verify he’s not a serial killer or anything. I know about meeting in a public place and not letting him have my home phone number or address, and I’m hesitant to give him my last name, but I think I need his last name. References would be nice. I just anticipated there would be more of an exchange of information before meeting.

    • Susie

      I think it’s fine to postpone meeting in person, but yes asking for SSN is definitely out of line! When to meet is a personal matter of comfort, do what’s right for you and if he doesn’t respect that he’s not the right guy. Continue chatting with him online and the details will slowly emerge.
      **my $0.02, but online dating didn’t even exist when I met my husband so I have zero experience here

    • Cornellian

      To be honest, I don’t think asking for his last name or SSN is remotely appropriate. I’d keep the first date public and brief (think coffee, not dinner). I don’t think meeting after the second e-mail is a strange request, either. You’re looking for someone to spend time with, not a penpal.

      Good luck!

      • Cornellian

        What i meant to say with keeping the first date brief is that it can still be information-gathering. If you click after that, it might be appropriate to find out where he works, his full name, etc.

      • Anon

        Not appropriate to ask for his last name? I’ve never internet dated so maybe I’m just completely out of it, but I can’t imagine going on a date with someone and not even knowing his last name. I’d definitely ask for his last name, but not place of employment (unless it just happened to come up in your emails and you could make it a casual question) or SSN.

        • Anya

          I’ve done a decent bit of internet dating, and I’d never ask for a last name before a first meeting. In my experience (and YMMV, of course), it’s not uncommon to stay on the site’s internal communications mechanism (vs. switching to e-mail) if someone’s e-mail address contains more information than they’re comfortable giving out.

    • cc

      Yes def can’t ask for ssn or place of employment. Think of it this way- you are in the grocery store, and you start talking to the man next to you. You have a good convo, and he asks you to coffee. The online dating is the “start talking” part, that leads to the coffee date. It is totally fine if you want to wait to meet, but that is not too soon, and nothing to be worried about.

      • Anon

        This is great advice.

        Also, don’t let them pick you up at your home or walk you home (if you’re not feeling it after the date).

        There was the guy who insisted he take me home, but I knew there would be no second date so I let him take me to a coffee shop in my neighborhood but not my actual address so I wouldn’t have to see him again (thank goodness b/c he kept insisting on a second date, then advice on his next date–I was like, perhaps you should figure out if you LIKE women?).

        My bf and I didn’t talk job specifics until many dates and even then I didn’t quite know what he did (it can happen in “finance” in NYC, like Chandler and his friends) until much later.

    • Anon

      Can you try to work employment into the conversation somehow and see if it comes up? I would get his last name. You could even make a joke and say that just in case you disappear, you need to leave info with a friend as to who you are with and where you’re going. I did a little online dating, and that sort of thing is almost assumed. And then definitely tell someone close to you where you’re going, his name, and what time they should hear from you. You just never know. If you’re having fun, give a quick call and say everything is good, and you’ll call when you’re headed home or something like that. I used to do texts, but then I realized it would be easy enough for a creepy dude to send an “I’m good, he’s awesome” text and then kill me and no one would know for three days.

    • Anon

      I sometimes feel exchanging a lot of messages is a waste of time – I’d rather have an initial meeting fairly early on to find out if we get on well in person. In my experience, an amusing and interesting man with whom you seem to have a great connection online can turn out to be rather dull or irritating in person, and I’d prefer to know sooner rather than later.

      (Please note the reverse has also happened: no particular spark while messaging, but I’ve gone for a drink when invited and found we get on really well.)

      You don’t need a detailed background on him at this stage and I think it would be odd to ask; I’ve never asked for a last name but I don’t think it would be unreasonable to do so, and you can ask what he does for a living but I wouldn’t expect specifics of which company. He may also be wary of revealing too many details to a total stranger.

      As others have said, in addition to meeting (and staying) in a busy public place where it’s also easy for you to get transport, let a friend know where, when and with whom you’ll be and check in at an agreed time.

      I have heard of women taking a photo of their date when they meet and sending it to a friend as extra security – although he may think it a little over-cautious, I think a reasonable man might understand and be okay with this. You could mention in a message that you are nervous and ask would he mind. His response might help you make up your mind as well.

      Be sensible but go out and enjoy yourself. It’s just an initial meeting and a chat – if it’s not working out, thank him for the drink, say “it was nice to meet you,” and call a cab.

    • anon

      I met my boyfriend through online dating and just want to say – good for you for going for it! If you go into online dating with an open mind and low expectations, it can actually be a good experience. Bad dates can make good stories! As for exchanging information, I wouldn’t bother. Just meet in a safe, public place and grab coffee or a drink, that way, you don’t have to stay long if you aren’t feeling it. When I went out on dates, I didn’t have their last name. If you don’t even know if you’re going to meet again, it’s not really worth doing a full background check. You could do that later if you really want to start spending significant time with the person.

      Online dating doesn’t have to be scary/creepy. My first date I met up with this really cute, dorky guy who was definetely only friend material. He texted me to meet up again and I told him thanks for a great conversation, but I’m only interested in being friends. He said, “good luck in your search!” I thought that was so sweet. I was suprised by how many normal, nice guys there are out there! It was so encouraging for me because I was starting to feel like my options were really limited, but if you are open to looking, your options are not limited! Good luck to you! Have fun meeting someone new!

    • Anon

      I’m sorry, but you sound insane. It’s never appropriate to ask for someone’s SSN! What are you going to do, open a fraudulent credit card under his name?

      Corresponding endlessly with someone on match might seem like a good idea, but it’s a waste of time. He seems ok, meet him somewhere for a drink and find out if he’s actually ok in person. No need to drag it out. It’s no different than meeting someone at happy hour.

  24. Career advice needed

    I am currently at an an AmLaw 30 firm. My firm has a 6 year partnership track, and I’m up for (non-equity) partner this year. I’d say I have a pretty good shot at making it – the firm’s goal is to promote every associate to non-equity partner, and my department has a good track record of doing just that. However, the work that I really like to do (litigation) has dried up (from the flood it was for the past 3-4 years). I’m not sure if we’ll have this type of work in 3 years, and I’m not sure there is a whole lot of other cases that come in for someone with my background. For example, a mid-level non-equity partner with the same technical background has been starving for work like me (but longer). I do not want to be in the same position in 3-5 years.

    I interviewed with and received an offer from another law firm in town that is super busy with this type of work, and growing this particular practice area. However, this firm (in the AmLaw 5) has an 8 year partnership track, which will be extended to a minimum of 9 years for a lateral. And it sounds like it is much harder to make partner – not everyone makes it.

    Should I stay or go? Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated!

    • Senior Attorney

      What do you want to do? It sounds like being a partner in a big firm is important to you. Why? What is is about being a partner that is important?

      What does it mean to be a “non-equity partner” in your current firm? What are the chances of becoming an equity partner? Do you care about that? Where do you want to be in 10 years?

      Honestly, I’d go where the work is.

      I’d also concentrate on building a book of business, because ultimately that is the thing that is going to make you the most valuable to any firm.

      • Senior Attorney

        Actually, I would (and did) get the hell out of BigLaw Dodge. But if you want to stay in BigLaw, go where the work is and develop a book of business.

      • Curious non-lawyer

        Doesn’t developing a book of business mean that where ever you are is where the work is, because you bring it?

    • Anon

      Go where the work is, for sure. I’m a litigator too, and at all the firms I’m very familiar with, there’s lots of litigation to go around. I’d be concerned in this market what it says about the longterm strength of your current firm if litigation has dried up. Associates often don’t realize (perfectly understandably) that making partner is just another hurdle to clear along the way, not the end game. Once you’re a partner (even non-equity), you’ll need a vibrant practice to keep advancing within your firm. Plus it’s boring to have nothing to do!

    • Need to Improve

      Go if (1) you want to do the new firm’s kind of work; and (2) you are willing to not be made partner for another 4 years. But think hard about whether you will be bummed to see people who graduated from law school when you did making partner before you.

    • Divaliscious11

      Maybe things have changed since I left private practice, but where is it possible that you can make partner in 6 years AND have no sustainable book of your own business? If you goal is to be a service partner, you probably should go where there is someone to feed you work. Otherwise, you’ll make partner, have no book, and then have a hard time finding a job because you don’t have a portable book.

      • mama of 2

        Non-equity partner. It’s totally different than equity partner. You can’t be an equity partner without either being at a top-notch firm or having a book of business. My understanding is that non-equity partners are basically like a glorified senior associate. (My firm doesn’t have them, though, so this might be overly harsh.)

        I agree that you should follow the work. Honestly, the title of “non-equity partner” is not enough of a draw to keep someone at a firm where there’s not enough work to go around.

        • Divaliscious11

          So it’s a service partner – where they give you a title to raise your bill rate (and make you pay your medical etc….) but you are still dependent on someone else generating business ….. Hmmm, still surprising. My old AmLaw 100 firm still require revenue generation as everyone started as a non-equity partner (when they made partner at 9 years). Whether you became an equity partner was dependent on revenue generation after you made partner.

          Does this new non-equity partnership have business development requirements?

          • Advice needed OP

            Mama of 2 is exactly right. It’s a glorified senior associate title, but with somewhat more job security and lower billable hours requirement (which is why it matters to me, to answer Senior Attorney’s question. Not so much the title or any alleged prestige). It’s hard to make equity partner around here without a big book of business. I am starting to think that the firm has a 6 (as opposed to 8) year track as a ploy to retain senior associates. Once promoted, you are locked in until you develop your own business.

            An extra wrinkle is that DH and I are TTC. I had a miscarriage (blighted ovum) right before thanksgiving after a year of trying (I am 37). We are probably going to try clomid, but would not do IVF if that doesn’t work. If we did have a child, then the lower billable hours and job security at my current firm would mean more than it does now.

            I should clarify – my oractice group at the current firm is busy overall, just not in my particular specialty area of litigation.

            Thank you to all who responded – I value the wisdom if the hive!

        • cbackson

          At a significant number of Biglaw firms, you have to be a non-equity partner before you’re an equity partner. It’s so that you have the benefit of the title to help you build business before you’re up for equity. You’ll also see it referred to as contract partnership. I’ve never worked at a firm that permitted anyone to go straight to equity, and my last firm actually required two years at contract before you were eligible.

    • GirlMeetsWorld

      I don’t know what is required of a non-equity partner but generally, partners are expected to be working, delegating as well as drumming up business.. presumably it’ll take time to develop contacts/network and start bringing in matters.. if that’s hard to do and you have no lit work at the same time, it might become career-stifling.

  25. Lily

    I have a question for the attorneys or paralegals…

    I work in a satellite office for a large Fortune 500 company. I’m not an attorney or paralegal, but most of the people I work with (in other company offices) are, and the company is moving toward wanting people with formal legal knowledge in my department. So I’ve been considering getting a post-baccalaureate paralegal certificate, since it seems like it would be a good idea. It hasn’t been suggested to me or anything, but I think I’d like to do it anyway.

    Here’s the problem. There are no ABA-approved paralegal certificate programs anywhere in my area. (The nearest one is about 3 hours away.) So my choices are basically to go to a small local non-ABA approved school that has no national recognition, or to choose an online paralegal certificate program through a well-known school (like Duke or Boston University). The ABA doesn’t recognize any online-only paralegal certificate programs, so those are be non-ABA approved too.

    Anyone have any advice on this? Obviously, online-only programs aren’t really highly thought of. Is the strong name of a school enough to overcome any stigma? Or should I just go to the local school instead?

    • Anne

      First of all, good for you for wanting to advance your career this way! But can I just ask a cautionary question — have you asked people in your company whether they think a paralegal certificate would be viewed favorably? In general, I think paralegal certificates are viewed very differently by different people within the legal profession. For people who want to be paralegals as a long-term career, typically at small or medium sized firms, a paralegal certificate is often seen as a valuable credential. At BigLaw firms, though, most paralegals don’t have a certificate — instead they tend to be bright young people who just have an undergrad degree (often from an Ivy League or other similarly good college). Some of those kinds of people end up staying on as paralegals more permanently, but they don’t then go get a paralegal certificate. So if the law department in your company is populated mostly by lawyers who started their careers at big law firms, your effort to get a paralegal certificate may not end up being particularly impressive to them. (if I’m being too subtle here, see the post above about how snobby the legal profession can be)

      • Lily

        I’ve basically been “grandfathered” into my current position–when I first started, legal knowledge wasn’t required. But now when there are openings for the same position as I have in the company’s other offices, the preferred requirements are “JD or paralegal certificate,” and the positions are filled by attorneys, mostly from small or medium firms. Since pursuing a law degree while still working full-time sounds exhausting (not to mention expensive), I thought a paralegal certificate would be more attainable. I have asked my boss about this (who is an attorney herself), and she’s said that I do great work and that I don’t need to worry about it. But being grandfathered into a position just makes me uneasy, to be honest.

      • Susie

        At my in-house law department a paralegal certificate is not technically required but definitely preferred. I also have friends who went back to get paralegal certificates a few years after unrelated undergrad degrees and got jobs at AmLaw 100 firms. Unfortunately I can’t really comment as to the preference between online degrees and non-ABA approved programs, we have several evening programs here which is what people tend to do.

      • Alana

        During a discussion in a state with a lower % of highly educated people, an attorney told me that paralegal certificates are more common in those areas, and in areas with more educated people, a “fancy” BA is usually sufficient. Is HR aware that they are asking for a certification that is not easy to obtain locally?

        • Lily

          I’m glad I posted my question…I’m learning a lot. I didn’t really know beforehand that paralegal certificates may be perceived differently or are more common among different groups of people.

          This is just something I’ve been considering on my own. It hasn’t been suggested to me by HR or anything. I just want to continue to be seen as “valuable.”

    • Divaliscious11

      I’ll take a well trained, non-certified paralegal over someone who thinks they know what they are doing because that is what they were taught in paralegal school every day of the week and twice on Sunday…..

    • Plan B

      Is your concern keeping your current job or moving into a new role at some point? It sounds as though you are well-regarded, and it may be that if you leave that job, they would hire someone with a paralegal certificate or a law degree but that you aren’t in danger of losing your job because you don’t have one of those.

      Are there other training or certification programs that would help you (maybe industry-specific?) in your current role? As a manager, someone demonstrating that they were interested in ongoing professional development in whatever form is appropriate would be what I would value.

      • Lily

        Thanks to everyone who has responded so far, I totally appreciate all the advice!

        My concern is more with keeping my current job. There are some industry-specific training programs I could take, so I’ve thought of those as well. I think what bothers me is that I’ve been “grandfathered” into my current role. If I applied for my same position today, I would most likely not get it due to my lack of formal legal knowledge. When I look at who is being hired in my department today, it’s people with legal knowledge but not always industry-specific knowledge. My department has really expanded and changed within the past few years.

  26. anonypotamus

    I just wanted to give a shout out to Nordstrom’s awesome customer service. I’m already a huge fan, but its incidents like these that really make me appreciate their service. I noticed a pair of shoes I had just ordered on sale got further marked down. I haven’t even gotten the shoes yet, and thanks to the Live Chat, they are issuing me a refund for the difference. Now I’m especially excited to receive them!

  27. DefenseWonk

    Heading to New Orleans for the first time for a weekend with the girls (yay!). Any advice on appropriate going out clothes for the city??

    • NOLA

      Hey, I just wanted to say – since you’re probably wondering why I didn’t respond, that I don’t really go out to clubs or bars, so I wouldn’t know. I will say that, because this is a tourist city, it’s probably a free-for-all. When I have gone out, it was probably nice jeans, a pretty/s*xy top and heels. Be careful, though, because the sidewalks here are awful so if you wear heels, you’ll have to navigate them and not fall.

  29. Frou Frou

    Dear ladies of a certain age (and anyone else who has seriously considered their retirement):

    What do you actually expect your retirement to look like? I mean in terms of what you’ll be doing/how you’ll be spending your time. DH and I are having discussions about the financial piece, which is pretty straightforward: house paid off, vacation property with small mortgage that is to become primary residence, fund our only kid through college and grad school, have cash to live on.

    But what are we actually going to do? I mean, don’t we need to have some idea of what the hay we’ll be doing with our time to know how much money will need? I don’t want the amount of money we have to be the driving force in how we spend these years. I want to turn it around and focus on what we’ll do. But what do people do when they retire? Neither of our sets of parents are models, for various non-relevant reasons.

    THANKS!

    • AMB

      My parents both volunteer once a week in fields totally unrelated to their professional lives, try to be active, go to art galleries, walks with friends… It’s up o you but I think some structure, at least in the beginning, is good. Know what day of the week it is.

    • ss

      I started thinking about this a few years ago, inspired and informed by my then-70 year old dad who is a retired business-owner and the kind of person who will never really stop being involved with markets, business and investments. He maintains a small comfy office in a commercial hub near his home, which functions as his private refuge, a club-house for his other retired pals and an occasional venue for meetings w bankers and lawyers. He was initially extremely reluctant (“won’t use it much” “too much hassle to deal with so many payments every month”) but the rest of us wanted him to try it out because he and mum were bickering SO much as they adjusted to more day-to-day face-time after his retirement. My siblings and I did the set-up for him, including hiring a couple of his old employees to come out of retirement on a part-time basis, and now we have an arrangement which everyone is very happy with.

      I imagine something pretty similar when the time comes for me – hopefully emeritus standing of some sort in my own firm, a couple of not-to-demanding boards, a bit of trading to keep life interesting, provided my physical and mental health permits. My husband and I have both made career shifts towards this (I left my bulge-bracket banking employer 3 years ago). Unlike my parents though, we have a lot of common professional interests and are very happy to live in each other’s pockets, so we’ll probably be sharing our little clubhouse-cum-office.

      Also on the wish-list (but this is definitely heading into fantasy … ) would be the ability to live somewhere beautiful for a couple of months a year. Paris, Rome or a small village in Bali I think !

      More seriously, my parents’ difficult adjustment to dad’s spending more time at home seems pretty common – many friends have encountered similar with their own parents. I think the important thing is to have some separate hobbies/ interests/ friends/ pastimes even if most people don’t spring for the extravagance of an physical space away from home.

      Hope this helps !

      • Miss Behaved

        My parents are having that problem, too. They’re always annoyed with each other. They haven’t solved it yet, though.

      • techie

        This is good advice.

        Most of the retired relatives in my family had a hard time with it. Several worked so hard their whole life (often out of fear/necessity) and could not get out of that mindset. Several went back to work, actually…. often because they didn’t know what to do with themselves when the retired and they got depressed. This was the men, and their wives were generally upset about it and it caused stress. Of course, the studies have also shown/suggested that working late in life is good for your health in many ways. I have also seen relatives shrivel and die quickly after retirement.

        It is great to plan ahead, so at least you and your spouse are somewhat on the same page. I think involvement with family, volunteering, working part time, hobbies, regular traveling/vacations, exercise, and definitely keeping a daily schedule are all useful.

        I have also seen some sad stories…. several relatives (my mother and father included) became severely ill or injured suddenly in their 60’s. It was a shock. They were still relatively young, and had been frugal their whole life, but never got to enjoy their retirement. They passed away quickly or became completely dependent on others. I guess I’m saying that you never know what’s going to happen (especially if cancer runs in your family) and just make sure you don’t “wait” too long to do some of those things that you want to do before it’s too late.

    • mama of 2

      My parents will literally not stop working until they have to, so they’re no help on this. My in-laws are half-retired, though, and what keeps them sane is that my FIL (the retired one) volunteers two days a week at the hospital. He treats it just like work, has valued colleagues and friends there, and generally gets a lot of deep satisfaction from it. Not as glamorous as having a trading clubhouse, but for those of us with a lot less money, volunteer work can still be a great way to get out of the house and find meaningful connections to the outside world.

    • ER

      I’m far from retirement, but have learned a lot from my grandparents. You might want to think about what housing situation you want after one or both of you become housebound (not able to drive anymore). My mom’s parents became housebound but were really fixated on being independent. Their marriage was deteriorating because they didn’t have any interactions with other people. My mom finally convinced her parents to move into a retirement community where they a free-standing house with a fully-equipped kitchen, but had the option of taking meals with other residents. There were lots of planned activities and they could navigate the community by scooter (rather than by car). I think the move added years to their lives, and really happy ones at that.

    • saacnmama

      I can only comment by referring to my parents. They chose their winter/retirement house based on what they wanted to do. Dad is very active playing tennis for several hours a couple days a week. It is a gated community, which they like because they don’t have any yard work or the like and because of the social club connected. They have found people there like themselves very interested in getting to know eachother. They spend a lot of time going to art shows, nature preserves, and musical performances, as well as eating out with friends or in friends’ homes. Mom says it feels like summer camp that goes on for months. Oddly enough (to me anyway), quite a few people from my hometown also have retired to that area, so while they have met new people, there is also a social set who they see there in the winter and back home in the summer. (They just bought a new house and sold the old one to a couple whose children I used to babysit). Healthcare consumes an increasing portion of their time–several surgeries and medications for each of them, and lots of doctors appointments are reality for late 70-somethings who can afford to keep themselves in good running order. They do all this back home (except for Mom’s radiation). They also travel a couple times a year for a couple of weeks at a time.

      But really, it has to be about yourself and what you want to do. I couldn’t see being in the area where they are, because I love the waves, so living on the Gulf seems pointless to me. They go to lectures and are happy about it for the evening, but then it passes quickly. They might read the books that are recommended for the cruise/guided tour but mostly are happy for what the docents/guides tell them. They are not stupid people, this is just how they choose to do things. They love their lives and I’m happy for them, but I’d rather be somewhere that I found naturally inspiring, I don’t want to have to drive a car (good luck finding a gated community not built around roads), I’d much rather do the reading and research to put together my own trips, I’m happier with a few closer friends and some sort of political activity, informed by lectures and meetings.

      All that is my way of saying that you really have to think about yourself and how you like to spend time in order to see how you want to spend such a huge chunk of it.

    • Senior Attorney

      Mr. Senior Attorney and I have been discussing this a bit of late. We are 10-15 years out from retirement at this point. Mr. Senior Attorney really likes his work and plans to keep working until he drops, but he is 7 years older than I, so I suspect he may be ready to retire when I get to 65.

      I think we will stay in our current home when we retire. It will be paid off by then and we love the area so there’s no reason to leave. My plan is to try to have a small mediation practice on the side, but mostly I want to travel. I’d like to do a minimum of 3 big trips a year. I also love to go to the gym and I take dance lessons, which I would expect to continue and increase in retirement. I’d also expect to find a significant, meaningful volunteer gig that would keep me off the streets and interested and engaged.

      And I hope that by the time I retire, my son will have a family and I will be able to put in some quality Grandma time!

      • Frou Frou

        Thanks, everyone! All of your comments have been really helpful. It’s as though I’ve gone, literally overnight, from zero examples to a good handful, all of which provide great ideas and scenarios to think about.

    • NOLA

      My Dad had a secondary job (much less stressful than his original career) working for a foundation for several years. He retired fairly young from his original career because my SM is younger and she was moving for her career. He also has taught at various colleges/universities part-time in his field since he retired, which he enjoys. But now they’re both completely retired. They are active in their golf club and church. My SM has been on the board of trustees of her college. They have an active social life in their area (bridge, dinners, brunch, theater, etc.) and they travel short distances to go to major theater and music productions. They live in the north so they spend a lot of time traveling to warmer climates in the winter so they can golf. They often travel with friends. They also stay active and work out with trainers. They have a really good life.

      • Saacnmama

        Those jobs sound good. I have an uncle who retired from CFO at a major firm and decided to be a bag boy in a grocery store. His wife (my aunt) went from major position in well know non profit to lab rat in cosmetics tests. Don’t know what advice books they were reading, but they gave those up quickly. They traveled some…she died a decade ago. He’s 90 now, takes Spanish classes & tango lessons, goes to Central America a couple times a year & sees his in town grand kids pretty often

  30. Boot Advice

    Ladies, I am blind and would like to buy a pair of La Canadienne or Aquatalia boots but need help finding a nonfrumpy pair. I am looking for brown boots with a 2-3.5″ heel/wedge that I can wear with both skirts and pants. I would like to find a bargain pair at Zappos or 6PM for less than $300 if possible. Can you help me pick a stylish pair?

    • techie

      I don’t trust my boot advice, but hoping others can help.

      Anyone? She is blind and would like some help?

      I have a pair of simple La Canadienne black suede short boots with a 2″ wedge heel that I just love. The are warm, very comfortable, simple and (I think…) stylish. I like very basic/classic/timeless styles for things like this.

    • Boot Help

      I checked out Zappos for you – La Canadienne has no stylish pairs for under $300. However, the “Kara” is $345 with a 2.75″ heel. With 125 reviews, they are rated at a full 5 stars. They are a dark espresso brown, described as “espresso suede.” I can’t quite find the words to describe the heel portion – maybe moderately thick? Maybe “stacked” is a better description. Definitely not stilettos. It looks like a heel that would be comfortable to walk in. There is a zipper on the inside of the boots all the way from the arch to the top of the boots. They are tall boots, probably up to one’s calves. Maybe beyond your calves if you are short like me.

      Just saw that this same style of boot comes in an ankle height if that’s what you are looking for. Everything is the same except the height of the boot. It’s called the “Kate.” They are on sale for $299, on sale from….$305. What a deal (sarcasm, of course).

      I think the tall boots look more stylish than the ankle boots.

      None of the brown Aquatilias on Zappos fit what you are looking for. There are 3 choices – two have very small heels and I don’t think the third option is all that stylish.

      Gotta run right now, don’t have time to check out 6PM, but hopefully someone else can check that site out. Good luck with the boot hunt!

    • Blonde Lawyer

      6 pm has La Canadienne Kloe for $225.46 in brown suede or tobacco suede. Heel is 3 1/4 and chunky. Boots are knee high. Tobacco is a lighter brown but still rich like coffee with cream and not yellowy. Brown suede is dark and almost looks black. They both have light colored exposed stitching on the side and around the front around ankle height. I love them. I see others but will post one at a time to avoid moderation. Link below.

      http://www.6pm.com/la-canadienne-kloe-tobacco-suede?zfcTest=mat%3A1

    • Blonde Lawyer

      If you are a 9.5 or a 10 the La Canadienne Marisol on 6 pm for $135.99 is nice. I’ll describe it if it would fit.

      If you are a 7, 9.5 or 10 the La Canadienne Kaylie is $144.99. I like the Kloe best of all three for work wear.

    • shortiek

      What size do you wear?
      On 6pm, there’s La Canadienne Kay in Espresso suede for $212. It looks very streamlined and simple. Only in sizes 8.5,9.5, and 10.
      There’s a 3 inch heel with a half inch platform. Knee high, 14.5 inch shaft height and a 15 inch circumference.

      The only “stylish” aspect that I’m not sure about is the tonal stitching. The lighter brown stitching runs alongside the side zipper, at top of the boot around the stretch gore insert , and in a streamlined arc from the foot arch up to the ankle. Sorry, I’m not really sure how to accurately describe that last feature. Link to follow.

    • Boot Advice

      Thanks to everyone for your help! I am an 8.5. I will go check out all of your wonderful recs!

    • Boot Advice

      If anyone is still following this thread, I am having second thoughts about the heel height. Can you recommend some boots with heel height between 1-2″ on sale for $300 or less at 6pm.com or zappos.com?

  31. so very anon for this

    I don’t know if it’s too late in the weekend to post, but I could really use some insight or advice, and I can’t talk to my friends (or anyone I know!) about this. This weekend is about the one-month mark of a new relationship. I really like the man in question for a lot of reasons (early days, yeah, but I could see him being a keeper), but we’ve been having some difficulties in the bedroom–namely, about 60-70% of the time he can’t keep an e r e c t i o n. I don’t know what to do. We’ve talked about it, and he’s assured me that I’m not doing anything wrong, and that he really does want to have vaginal s e x…but it keeps happening. I know the answer is probably to tell him to go to the doctor, but he’s a healthy guy in his mid-twenties who exercises, eats well, and has no medical conditions that he’s medicating. I don’t know what to do–I don’t want to put pressure on him, because I feel like that would make it worse, but at the same time I don’t want to act like it’s no big deal, because I enjoy intercourse and want to have it with him, obviously (and when we have had it, it’s been pretty mind-blowing). Other than that, I’m not unsatisfied–we find plenty of other things to do–but, argh. What should I do? Has anyone worked through something like this before?

    • O.

      I think Dan Savage has posted some advice on this in the past. I think his advice was to take v@ginal s3x off the table for a bit but it might be worth trying to search his archives to get more details than I am remembering right now.

      • anonwaxer

        I think it would depend on what the other things you do are. You don’t have to say on here, but since you said he’s only in his mid TWENTIES, the chances of this being physical are slim (but he should get checked, because if it is physical given his young age it could be serious).

        If there are other things that he can get an e r e c t i o n for, then I would wonder if p*$n doesn’t play a role here. Some younger men have watched so much internet p*$n, that they now have very specific things that they can e j a c u l a t e to, and maybe v*gin*l s@x isn’t one of them…

      • so very anon for this

        Thanks for the Dan Savage recommendation–I googled around and found a couple of columns. So I guess I’ll just formally take vaginal s e x off the menu. Oral seems to have a much better success rate for us anyway.

        If things don’t improve in a few weeks I’ll bite the bullet and make myself talk to him about seeing a doctor. He really prides himself on being a healthy person, not having been sick or been to the doctor in years, stuff like that, so I doubt he’s going to want to hear it. But oh well.

        • saacnmama

          Starting a new relationship can be pretty stressful–you’ve been together one month, so still pretty new. Maybe ease off on this part of it altogether until you’ve gotten a lot more comfortable/less giddy in lots of other things.

        • Anon

          If you haven’t already come across this in Dan Savage’s columns, search “death grip” — specifically in connection with his posts/columns on this. One of my best friends had the exact difficulty/awkwardness you describe about the same time into a new relationship and said reading and implementing Savage’s recommendations made a huge, positive difference.

          And I only knew to suggest these columns to her because of recommendations and comments from the hive here at C – r e t t e, so thank you to all once again!

    • anon for this

      I had an ex boyfriend like this in college. It was really hard not to internalize it (like it was something I was doing). IMO because it is so unusual for a healthy mid 20s guy to deal with this to this degree, you should suggest he see a doctor just in case. I never got up the courage to do that, though.

      One thought – I know the relationship is new and you are probably using c*ndoms. If both of you have been tested and you are both monogamous – would you consider not using them? That might help him keep the flag flying.

      • Divaliscious11

        Please don’t do this. You’ve known dude a month. A negative test today means nothing. If you go down this path, please wait for at least 6-8 months of specific and verbally agreed upon monogamy.

        • so very anon for this

          Believe me, I won’t! We’re monogamous but condoms are mandatory.

    • Divaliscious11

      The fact that he is a healthy guy in his mid-twenties have this problem would increase the likelihood of my telling him to go to the doctor…….

      • Anon

        Yep. My friend was dating someone who had similar issues, and it turned out he had very low testosterone. He was put on meds for it and that helped tremendously. To look at him, you’d never guess that he would have that specific problem — apparently even guys who look all “manly-man” can be suffering from it.

    • roses

      Also encourage him to be open with you about what he’s into, what his fantasies are, etc., in a way that makes it sound like you’re just curious rather than “there must be something wrong!” It could be that he has some sort of kink or something that really gets him going, but doesn’t feel comfortable sharing without knowing if you’re open to it.

    • anon for this

      My advice is to pay attention if he is very resistant about going to the doctor. If he prides himself on “being healthy” and places that above a normal sexual relationship, then this may only be a problem deferred. Once you are married, a few years down the line, the testosterone stops working, or something else interferes, your sex life may be over.

    • NOLA

      I will say here what I’ve said before – for this to work, you have to both equally think that it’s a big deal to get the problem solved. In my marriage, my ex-H had this problem. He would tell me that he talked to his doctor and that is wasn’t physical. Well, okay, it’s psychological and you don’t care about figuring out what’s wrong? It made me very angry, honestly, because I wanted us to have a healthy s*x life without these barriers and I felt like he either didn’t care or was too embarrassed to pursue it. So frustrating.

      As others have mentioned, you’re young and the relationship is new, so it may be as simple as him going to the doctor about it. It’s tough on a guy’s ego, but this is something that can kill a relationship

    • Anon

      It is also possible that there is something mental/ emotional going on. I dated a guy who had a…complicated…early sexual history, and it wasn’t something we talked about until months in. I wouldn’t recommend asking him if this is the case after a month of dating, but I would be aware that it is possible this is not a physical issue.

  32. Delmarva

    Question for experts in family law or accounting: What happens when a pension benefit divided by QDRO is later frozen by the company? Who (the lawyers? an accountant?) can explain what this will mean at retirement? Both parties worked for the same company. One spouse was covered by the pension plan in question for two years of the 14-year marriage, the other for seven years.

    • Anonymous

      Call the recordkeeping company that has the pension plan. Depends on the type of freeze – are they accruing no new benefits, or are the freezing with the intention of terminating to another type of plan (401k)/can’t afford to make contributions/M&A activity?

  33. Alta_Litgirl

    I am starting my first civil trial solo on Wednesday in a small town outside my city, and the plaintiff is self-represented. I feel pretty good about my client’s case and I feel fairly prepared but I’m starting to get butterflies and feel nervous about going up there alone (a 2 hour flight, followed by a 2 hour drive in a rental car) and having to deal with a somewhat unstable self-represented litigant without any backup. The self-rep litigant seems to be clueless about just about everything to do with the law (he thought that the subpoened witnesses actually had a duty to call him and help him prep for the trial), and is definitely emotionally unstable/erratic at times. I know that running this trial alongside him will be like pulling teeth–especially since I can’t exactly help him out while maintaining my loyalties to my client.

    I’ve already looked at the archieved posts on general tips re: out-of-town trial logistics, but I’m wondering if anyone has had the misfortune of running a trial against a self-represented litigant and what tips or strategies you found made the experience run smoothly (or as smooth as could be expected).

    Many thanks!

    • lucy stone

      I’m a municipal prosecutor so pro se litigants are the bulk of the defendants I see. Treat them exactly as you would treat an opposing counsel. They have chosen to represent themselves and any objectionable behavior should be objected to, even if it makes you feel bad at first. Expect to see a lot of narrative during questioning from them (and isn’t it true that I never did blah blah because on that day I was actually going to the store to buy my grandma medicine and blah blah). The judges here have all taken the position that when someone voluntarily chooses not to retain counsel, it is their job to avail themselves of the court procedural rules and the rules of evidence. Move to dismiss after he closes.

    • Blonde Lawyer

      Get used to the refrain, “I can’t give you legal advice. Talk to the clerk for procedural advice.” While you should treat him just like everyone else, you also don’t want to look bad in the jury’s eyes or annoy the judge. Let little things slide if they don’t impact your case. You don’t want to be objecting every ten seconds. When you do have to object you can word it in a way like “while I understand that Mr. x is self-represented, this Court has previously held that even the self-represented must follow court rules. Since I wasn’t given notice that witness Y would be testifying I must object. Allowing witness Y to testify without prior notice will prejudice my client because of xyz.” So, my point is, frame your objection to illustrate why you have to make it, why the Court has to side with you, but while looking respectful if not sympathetic to your unrepresented opponent. Also, be prepared for the Court to grant your opponent much more leeway than you would ever be given and try not to look visibly annoyed with the judge when this happens. “I respect your decision your honor but please ensure the record reflects my objection.”

      Also, in my jurisdiction judges get pissed if we don’t somewhat guide our opposing pro se people with things like stipulations. For example, we have to file a stipulated structuring order. While it is on the Plaintiff to initiate, in my court, the judge would expect the defense counsel to just prepare a draft one, present it to the pro se plaintiff and explain that it must be filed joint/stipulated. The judge will be annoyed if there is a hearing for lack of agreed order when the reason is simply the pro se plaintiff didn’t know to initiate one.

      Also, don’t forget you can still try to do some last minute pre-hearing settlement negotiations just like you can with a represented person.

      Good luck!

      • Saacnmama

        If I were on the jury, I’d find that wordy objection annoying and pretentious. To me, a simple statement in a gentle tone that states the problem clearly in as few words as possible would sound better.

        • TBK

          Really? That seems like a totally straightforward statement to me. This makes me glad I’m not a trial attorney. Juries would hate me.

        • Blonde Lawyer

          OP needs to know her local rules. Where I practice certain objections must be short and sweet (objection, hearsay) others (usually for procedural violations) are supposed to be “speaking objections” so the judge doesn’t have to go through the extra steps of asking follow up questions to figure out why you are objecting and why they have to rule in your favor. If an objection could prejudice the other side, the description is made at the bench, out of ear-shot of the jury. One would just say objection, may we approach, and then say the other lines.

  34. SouthernEsq

    My firm is (re)taking all of our photos for our website very soon and I find myself at a loss of what to wear. I am the only unmarried, female associate, and all of the partners are white males over the age of 50. The current photos have me in a suit jacket and button down, but that is most assuredly not me. On any given day, even in court, you are more likely to find a hippo in the office than me in a button down. They make me uncomfortable, and I feel like that translates, especially in pictures. So, I’m curious as to what will look both attractive and professional in these photos that will not make me feel like I’m playing dress up. I was leaning toward a shift dress, hair down, minimal jewelry. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

    • Blonde Lawyer

      Non-snarky curious question – what does the “unmarried” part have to do with the photo? I want to give you advice but I feel like I’m missing part of the dynamic. For what it is worth, I am married and I wore a scoop neck shell tank under my suit jacket. I usually wear pant suits but wore a skirt suit for the pic. You can’t even tell since it is just from the waist up. I wore my hair down and smiled big like I normally do. I didn’t go for the fake serious look.

      • SouthernEsq

        Totally fair, and my bad at poor explanation. I am the youngest and least conservative. Usually the “unmarried” part gives a sense of the vibe in the office when I explain down here, but it doesn’t translate so well to fashion advice on the Internet.

        Your outfit sounds way more like my style. I was debating between something similar and the sheath dress, with sleeves, and no jacket. I feel like it would be false advertising if I tried to give off the whole corporate exec impression

        • NYCG

          Wear whatever you’d wear to make a solid professional first impression, i.e., the first day you go to court on a case, or the first time you meet a client. Your firm pictures will be the first thing potential clients, opposing counsel, judges and their clerks, etc will see of you.

  35. No longer waiting for a proposal

    I need help on how to let a guy know that it’s just not going to work out. He’s very nice and we went out on two dates, but I’m not attracted to him at all. He’s also about three inches shorter than me if I’m wearing flats! He seems to have a habit of asking me out for the next date while we are on the initial date and I just agreed to go out next Saturday because I didn’t know what else to say. How do I nicely text him that we shouldn’t continue to date? I feel really bad because he’s a nice guy, but I’d prefer to spend my Saturday night at home watching a movie! Sorry, I’m just very out of practice and don’t know how to navigate this while still being nice and I don’t want to hurt his feelings.

    • Monday

      “Tom, I’m afraid I have to cancel our plan for Saturday, and also let you know that I don’t think it’s going to work out between us. I enjoyed getting to know you and wish you the best.” Adjust level of formality as you wish.

      With someone expressing this much interest, I don’t think there’s any way to cut it off without hurting his feelings at least a little bit. It’s also inherently awkward since you barely know each other (suggesting a breezy message) but he’s being very eager (suggesting you need to be very clear). You may feel wrong no matter how you phrase it, but try not to worry about it.

      While I’m commenting…don’t be afraid to adopt a new handle for this site! I remember your story and thus where this name came from, but if you let people know you’re making a transition (perhaps to something that you’d prefer to identify with?) folks will remember who you are and it might feel a bit more affirming.

    • Anon

      Ha, are you in Chicago by any chance? If so, I think I went out with the same guy ;)

      • No longer waiting for a proposal

        @ Monday, I should probably change this handle; it’s time. I’ll just have to come up with one! I’ll try not to worry about it and just get it over with. I feel bad since he’s so nice, but no reasons to continue this. Thanks for the advice!

        @Anon, I am not in Chicago, but glad to know I’m not the only one dealing with this type of thing!

  36. Frou Frou

    Just returned from a small shopping adventure that was otherwise a total bust except for the shoes. Can I just say how much I dearly love the Cole Haan Margot pumps and I so wish they were not going away?? I came home with two pairs of them. They were $50 off the original price, plus another 30% off and then the SA gave me another $25 off, just like that. Hooray! Two pairs of my most favorite shoes in-the-wh0le-wide-world for $199 out the door! My DH is not particularly enthused by these purchases, but I know you ladies will understand my joy. :)

  37. ANon

    Need some input on how to respond to a very generous offer from my dad….

    He recently inherited some money, and called me to tell me that he’d like to pay off the balance of my student loans, which is what his mom did for him when she “came into some money.” Thing is, throughout the conversation, it became clear he was thinking my loans were a couple of thousand dollars, when in fact there’s about 20k left on them. I told him I’d look up how much I had left and let him know. I’m struggling with how exactly to word the email, since I in no way want to make him feel obligated to pay the entire balance (nor do I need the help–but I do really appreciate the gesture).

    How would you word the email? So far I’ve got “Hi Dad, I checked into the balance on my loans and I’ve got $X on one, and $Y on the other.” What’s the best way to say “this is a really generous thing to do, and i know you said you wanted to pay off the balance, but I know this is a bit more than what you were thinking when we talked earlier…whatever you’re comfortable doing is totally wonderful and extremely appreciated–so please don’t send me a giant check.”

    • momentsofabsurdity

      Your dad is so sweet! I like your email, I would just cut out the “please don’t send me a giant check” and say something like “I’m so grateful for even the thought that you want to contribute, so please don’t feel obligated to pay anymore than you are comfortable with, whether that’s $2 or $2000. Love you so much and thank you so much” and leave it at that.

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