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Weekend Open Thread

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OK, we thought we'd give the coffee cups a rest and try something new for the weekend open thread — a recommendation for weekend/casual clothing.

Today we're liking this cotton sweater from Jones New York, which comes in pink and black. It's a wee bit too casual for every day at the office (unless your office is already pretty casual), but it's a great look for running errands around town or just lounging around the house.

It's on sale at Macy's — now $89, was $119, available in sizes S-XL. Jones New York Signature Sweater, Button Pocket Cardigan

In the meantime — something on your mind? Chat about it here.

Some of our favorite sweater jackets for the office as of 2025 include M.M.LaFleur (the OG, the jardigan!), L'Agence, Summersalt, J.Crew, Modern Citizen, and Jenni Kayne. For budget options check J.Crew Factory and Quince.

woman wears olive green sweater jacket with shawl collar and patch pockets; she is wearing a black column of color beneath the jacket
Summersalt
A woman wearing a black blouse and white pants, holding a leather jacket
Modern Citizen
schoolboy sweater blazer from j.crew factory in color Loden
J.Crew Factory
green knit blazer
L'Agence

(L-2)

Sales of note for 5/16/25:

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

95 Comments

    1. I would also suggest “going out” or “weekend party” clothes recommendations! Now that us law students are free to run around for a few weeks :)

  2. Can I just freak out for a second about the weather forecast for this weekend? I am supposed to fly out of NYC at 7am Sunday morning, and now the forecast says 5-10 inches of snow over Saturday night. I am getting the sinking feeling that I will be spending Sunday in the airport.

    1. You’re not the only one. I’m supposed to fly into NY on Sunday morning. Ugh.

    2. Yea, I know the feeling. My flight is leaving Saturday afternoon, and I’m hoping it won’t be so bad yet then.

      1. I’m supposed leave DC today to go home (for my sister’s wedding next weekend). Don’t think it’s happening any time soon.

  4. I have a question for the bloggers out there.

    I have a blog about business travel. I feel that I have some good information to share, and I enjoy writing it. I have recently been approached by a blogger group that would like me to move to their hosting page. It is a group solely about business travel. I’ve looked at the site, and the accompanying chat board, and it looks not only legitimate but really helpful and informative. This would probably drive up my traffic significantly.

    That being said–I haven’t been blogging very long (less than a year) so I’m not as familiar with the way things work. Is it normal for groups to approach bloggers to join their group? I guess I am concerned about a few things. Could this be a scam? (I don’t think so but who knows). Are there rules for blogging groups about how often you have to post or the content or anything like that? Of course I would like a wider readership but I never thought about anything like this.

    So….what do you guys think? Is this something I should look into? Any thoughts or comments about an angle I maybe haven’t thought about?

    Thanks for your help!!

    1. I have no clue and won’t be able to answer any of your questions, unfortunately, but you did spike my interest in your blog– can you share the web address on here?

      1. Just click on her name (which appears in blue on my screen to indicate that it’s a link).

    2. I don’t have any answers, but an additional concern could be whether the bloggers’ group would put restrictions on what you can write — e.g., can you say anything bad about their advertisers? Do you have the freedom to set your own policies for comments/whetehr to moderate or not? Can you write about any possible topic or just ones that relate to the group’s focus? If you can do off-topic posts, how often? If these people are asking you to join, how/when can they kick you out — there should be some specific rules for that so they can’t just ask you to leave if they don’t like you or you’re pulling readers away from their blogs. Also, how often do you have to direct readers, like in your posts, to your new colleagues’ blogs?

      Also, you’ll need to know how they divide the advertising money, and you can maximize your piece of it (e.g., if your blog starts sending people to their blogs, then your share should increase — it shouldn’t simply be based on how many people view your blog and your advertisers).

      If I were you I’d google this topic, see what other people have written about pros/cons of joining up with other bloggers. Last resort, ask them these questions, and try to see if they have written policies. Ask them who else they’ve asked ot join, and if they give you the names of anyone who turned them down, find out why. Finally try to find out everythting that’s ever been said about this group and the individiauls in it.

      Sorry that this didn’t actually answer any of your questions, I’m not even a blogger, just a lawyer, so I just tried to think of the things that I’d want to know.

      GOod luck!

      1. Thanks Anon, these are great questions. I did reach out to some of the other bloggers on the site and they have nothing but good to say about it, so that’s reassuring.

  5. Most airlines are letting people change their flights in advance of the storm. I have a friend who just changed hers from later this weekend to tomorrow morning. They aren’t putting it on their websites, but if you call, most are letting you change without a fee. I know American is doing this.

  6. Love the color, but this would hit right at the wide spot below the hips, and so is probably only flattering on very slender types.

  7. I hear you TJ… I am supposed to leave on a road trip tomorrow morning, and it is currently snowing where I am supposed to stop tomorrow night. I think we’ll head down as far as we can go, with a couple of stopping options. I really want to be in my destination state by Monday!

    1. Actually, I kinda liked the cocktail glasses (before the coffee mugs). But I’m a girly-girl, what can I say.

  10. I like the party clothes suggestion!!! :)

    My baby is due in 3 weeks, so I am sitting tight and watching a lot of TV this weekend. :)

  11. I have an opportunity to revise my 401K contributions… My firm puts $7200 in a 401K for me each year as part of my compensation, so anything else that I put in would be “extra.” I’m in my mid-20’s with about 100K in student loan debt (at 6.5-7 and 8%..blech) and some “stupid tax” credit card debt (which should be gone by this time next year!) I’m focusing on debt pay down, and have an emergency fund of about $3,000 in a high yield savings account.

    I’d like to pay down the debt, but I’m also toying with the idea of putting a portion beyond the firm’s contribtion in a roth 401K. (I find that I don’t miss money that’s taken away from me before I see it!)

    What are the thoughts on a roth 401k v. 401k?
    Should i contribute beyond what my firm does or focus on building the cash reserves/debt paydown?

    1. I would build up your reserves more first.

      I am in almost the exact same position as you (100Kish debt, at those interest rates), although with less retirement savings (I am guessing).

      My emergency fund is 20,000, and I feel that is low. I d0 have another 50k invested that I could get to quickly if need be.

      Paying down debt is great, but you need more than 3k in case of an emergency. Then focus on contributing more to your retirement account.

      1. Ooo, I meant I would

        1. Build up emergency

        2. Pay down cc debt

        3. Put more into retirement and other savings AS you pay off student loan debt (higher interest first).

    2. I’m not sure maxing out the 401k is necessarily the best choice for you at the moment. I think I’d focus first on getting more cash reserves and paying off the credit card debt completely. $3000 isn’t really enough to make it through more than a month and you should aim to have at least six months.

      I assume you are asking about a Roth IRA v. a 401k? If you’ve maximized your employer match to the 401k, I think maxing out the Roth contribution may be a better bet. It’s much easier to access in an emergency and you won’t be penalized for withdrawing money before you’re 59 1/2. It’s probably best to discuss it with a financial advisor.

      1. Um, I think you can be penalized for withdrawing money from a Roth IRA before a certain age, just like you can with a 401k.

        Also, I think the OP’s question was about a Roth 401k–my employer offers those, too, and I’m not entirely clear either on whether I should contribute to the Roth version or the regular 401k version. I know it has to do with whether you think your tax rates now are higher or lower than you think they will be when you withdraw the money (presumably at retirement).

        Since I’m only working part-time at the moment, I’m putting it all in the Roth version (since I’ll be in a lower tax bracket this year w/ my PT income). However, next year I’ll go back to full-time and I’m not sure what I’ll do then. I’ll probably just split my contributions in order to hedge my bets!

    3. I’m in a similar situation as you and just a tad older. These are my priorities:

      1. Emergency fund (goal is to have 2 months’ expenses)
      2. Higher-interest debt
      3. Savings account
      4. Lower-interest debt
      5. Retirement fund (although I do put a small percentage of my salary into it, which my firm both matches and then adds an extra 5% of salary to)

      Right now I’m only able to make a dent in the first two. Once I meet my emergency fund goal, I’ll focus on eliminating my high-interest debt completely, then focus on saving more and more. I don’t actually plan to ever pay beyond the minimum on my student loans because in my case my interest rates are low, but once I’ve saved enough, I can make that minimum payment from my savings instead of having to set aside a portion of my paycheck every month to pay my loans. And of course, as I get older, the retirement fund will move up in priority and I’ll put a higher percentage of (presumably) a larger paycheck into it.

    4. I’m in a similar financial situation, and don’t put anything towards retirement. Someone ran the calculations for me once, and given the high interest on my large law school loans, and the rate of inflation, I would be losing money by putting it in a retirement account (whether pre or post tax)

      For Roth, you pay taxes now, correct? So you’re betting that your taxes will be lower when you withdraw. Do you think that’s true? It’s impossible to predict anwyays since the tax rates have changed so much over the years and your individual effectt rate depends on so many factor.

      You;’re in a better position than me since at least your firm is building up a reitrement account for you. I don’t think you should contribute anything to a retirement account at this point. YOu need to build more emergency reserves (I’m at around 20k and finally starting to feel a teeny bit comfortable, though I still want it to be higher), and pay off your highest interest rate debt / credit cards (can easily double your payments on your highest-rate student loan, for instance). If you don’t miss money you don’t have, have all of this directly debited from your account each month. You can even do recurring transfers each month from a linked checking to savings acount.

      But yes, as the others have said, def get more than $3k in reserves before you start putting money away into a retirmeent acount. Have a financial adviser run the numbers for you, and you’ll see how bad of a deal it is to put money away for retirement when you’re sitting on high-interest debt.

    5. First, unless the interest rate on your credit card is less than the interest rate in your savings account, I would strongly recommend you pay down your credit card debt first. If you compare the quantity of money you pay the CC in interest versus the quantity of money you earn in interest in an emergency savings fund, chance are (98%) that you would LOSE money if you focus on your emergency fund before your CC. Do the math like this: You have $3000 in your EF… with %2 interest, compounded, you earn about $60 a year. Let’s say you have $3000 outstanding on your CC. with %5 interest (a low guestimate) you incur about $150 in debt. This means that you would be $90 in the hole (150-60). Therefore, until your CC is paid off, there is no sense in adding money to your EF. (If, however, your interest rate on your CC is less than that of your savings account, you will want to put equal amounts in both untill CC is paid off).

      In a Roth 401K, you pay taxes on the money you are putting in now. You are actually betting that the taxes will be HIGHER when you retire (not lower)… the reason is that when you withdraw your money from the Roth 401k, you will NOT have to pay taxes on it because you already have. In my opinion, anyone under 35 should definitely use a Roth… the chances that your income increases is pretty high, which would put you in a higher tax bracket than you are currently in when you want to cash in on your 401k. By paying taxes on your current income bracket you are avoiding the higher taxes later. Also, you are only paying taxes on what you put in right now (ie. taxes on the $4700). If you have a standard 401k, you would eventually pay taxes on the entire amount ($4700 x 10 years or whatever), which would likely be in a higher tax bracket than you currently have.

      1. A – I think you’re 100% correct. As a follow up, I would also recommend that you start using a program such as Quicken Online or Mint.com that will help you see all you finances at a glance.

  12. Do the lawyers out there have any recommendations for books to learn about private equity/deal terms/etc.? I’m really struggling, and I am trying to ask a lot of questions to people more senior to me, but everyone is really busy now so it’s hard to get someone to answer the really basic questions. Any advice would be really appreciated!

    1. Try your state CLE provider or PLI – they usually have a ‘nuts and bolts’ course and you can often purchase the materials. I think I have one from PLI….

    2. Check your firm’s library for books/articles on these topics.
      Go on West/Lexis or other databases and look for articles. There’s one in particular on PE by Andrew Needham but it may be too tax-focused for you. What exctly are you trying to learn about PE funds? And what exactly do you mean by deal terms?
      I also agree that CLEs can be invaluable, go to any of the ones your firm puts on, or that your local bar orgs do (or do some of the online ones)

  13. We’re getting on a cruise ship tomorrow, and I’m so glad that we don’t have to fly beforehand. I suspect a number of folks will miss this cruise, if they need to fly out of the northeast into Fort Lauderdale/Miami before the ship sails at 5pm.

    On the plus side, maybe we’ll be able to upgrade our cabin into one with a no-show.

    I looooooove getting dressed up for formal nights. I’m bringing a holiday-ish red chiffon long floaty number, a stunning midnight blue velour column dress with draped neckline, and the black and cream satin Jones New York evening dress that I wore at our wedding. I’m thrilled that these dresses still fit me, as I’ve had them 6-7 years. A lot of water under the bridge/desserts over the hips in that time…

    It will also be the first time we can scuba dive as certified divers, and I’m so excited! We’ll dive in Belize and Cozumel. I have a brand new wetsuit, but it is not nearly as flattering as the formal dresses.

    Anybody else have fun holiday travel plans?

    1. Okay, I don’t even know anyone who can top that. Sounds like you’ll look fabulous and more importantly have an amazing experience.

    2. LOL at seeing “stunning” and “velour” together to describe the same item.

      Sorry, but I don’t have any fun travel plans. You see, I am a twenty-something American woman, fresh out of a top top grad school. But I don’t have family money, or a chance to make any of my own thanks to the &*^%#@ economy that my elders have created. I’ve never been on a cruise ship, and probably never will be. The last girl who took a vacay in my office was fired upon her return.

      I will work until the day I die, likely in poverty.

      So glad you were old enough to get out there and get yours before everything went to —-.

      1. Dear R:
        I can’t help but comment on your reply… Its comments such as yours that turn the conversation sour. Louise is in no way responsible for the economy, your family fortune, or your personal life track. I’m also (very!) jealous that she’s going on a cruise, but I still don’t see the need for that sort of response… Sounds like you are in a tough position-many of us are.

        Louise, I hope you have a blast!

        1. I’m with you, M, I think L was unnecessarily bitter, but maybe it’s cause I also actually do have a stunning midnight blue velour column dress, so keep your snark to yourself! Enjoy the snow and the season, travel if you have it, warm days at home by the fire and/or tree and/or candles or whatever, be grateful for what you have, and put out more positive energy into the world.

      3. Nice attitude. I can guarantee with an outlook like that, your life will suck no matter how much money you make or what else happens to you. Want some free advice? Stop focusing so much on your all-important career and work on making a friend, finding a partner, or Jesus, even getting a dog. Volunteer with disadvantaged children, or at an animal shelter. Take up mountain climbing. Start a hobby – knitting, scrapbooking, kickboxing, whatever. Do something that will expand your horizons and allow you to see that there’s a world out there that has nothing to do with work, money, or career success. If your job is so bad that no one can take vacations, you need a new job. If you can’t look around at your situation and find something positive to focus on, you need a new outlook. Stop the pity party and realize that as much as you might think your life sucks you still have a place to live, food to eat, clothes to wear, and a job to go to. You don’t have a spouse or children relying on you for support (and with an attitude like yours, you may never have that problem to worry about). Many, many people in this world don’t have anything near that. So stop feeling sorry for yourself. Times are bad but there’s still joy out there in the world, you just have to look for it.

      4. How unkind.

        Incidentally, one doesn’t need “family money” to cruise. I couldn’t afford a cruise after graduating from grad school, nor did I expect to be able to after financing undergrad and grad school with merit scholarships and student loans. However, I was able to afford a cruise for my honeymoon a few years later. And no, I didn’t work in BigLaw or Finance for Big Salaries, or in any type of high income job.

        As for your inability to make any money until the day you die, I suggest that in the long run, attitude will be much more important than the economy.

      5. R – how many people do you know who were not so fortunate so as to go to a “top” grad school? Some people your age were working at Burger King while you were extending your childhood with extra education. There but for the grace of God go I. . .

        Louise: have fun!

      6. Wow, what a bitter, sad person. Maybe the economy is bad right now, but honestly, most of the people I know have jobs and are able to go on a vacation. Maybe your attitude is keeping you from succeeding.

        I don’t think you would enjoy a vacation anyway. What would you be bitter about?

      7. I’m going to admit that when I first read Louise’s post, it came across as boastful to me, and it rubbed me the wrong way, too. However, after skimming through her blog, my opinion completely changed–she really seems like a fun, adventurous woman who genuinely enjoys life. That’s the kind of person I’d want to have as my friend. It’s funny how our first impressions can be so sadly wrong. And this just underscores the importance of giving someone the benefit of the doubt before attacking them with unkind words. I’m glad that everyone has also pointed out that responding negatively to one woman’s joy can speak volumes about our own insecurities.

      8. “LOL at seeing “stunning” and “velour” together to describe the same item.”

        That doesn’t seem very nice.

      9. I think R is being facetious. The economy bites right now, and being broke around Christmas can really bum you out. Lighten up, everyone. R, I have compassion for your situation, actually. Chin up. It sucks now, but you will be middle class eventually, promise!

    3. I’m heading out to NYC and PA for the holidays to visit family. We fly out Monday, so I think we’ve missed the chaos due to cancelled flights.

      Have a lovely cruise! My husband and I love to cruise and have a Mediterranean cruise booked for next fall.

    4. Louise– enjoy your cruise. I checked out your blog- looks like you and yours are living a fun life.

    5. Don’t be too jealous! We bought the cruise on super final clearance sale, and Christmas week vacations are usually filled with other people’s free-range kids. And all my dressy clothes are many seasons old. But careful shopping at discount stores like Ross and Marshall’s can yield classic styles that look good on your body type.

      I laughed at your LOL about stunning velour; it does *sound* awful, doesn’t it? :-) And many velour outfits are hideous, but this dress is cut perfect for my figure and the deep blue hides every bulge and sag! I feel gorgeous when I wear it. Gotta love a dress like that.

      Way back in college, when I was interviewing for jobs, I went on a trip to meet-n-greet at a big defense contractor. There were dozens of men applying for the same jobs (I was an engineering student), and I fell in deep lust with a cute guy in a sharp interview suit. Oo, snappy dresser. We agreed on a Saturday night date back at school.

      He arrived at my door with flowers, candy, and wearing the most obnoxious, ugly, gag-worthy rust/orange velour shirt with a bronze zippered collar. You know, with the circular pull tab? Very 1973, except this was 1985. It wasn’t hip, trendy, retro or anything else. He just still had some older brother’s fugly shirt on!

      That was a one-date wonder…

      Thanks for everyone’s well-wishes. I hope to still fit all my clothes by the end of the week.

      1. Your great response really de-escalated the situation. I once posted something on facebook meant to share my joy and excitement and sense of good fortune only to have it blow up on my face because some people thought I was bragging. Oops. I’d never been out of the US before I finished grad school, and now do an international trip every year. We all have our priorities, and I’m sure R has more in retirement than I do. And Louise definitely has a better wardrobe than I do!

        But some of the responses are also rude — there are a lot of people unemployed right now, and I personally know people who have been unemployed for a year or more. So 2:43 p.m. Anonymous, “Maybe the economy is bad right now, but honestly, most of the people I know have jobs and are able to go on a vacation. Maybe your attitude is keeping you from succeeding.” is a real a-hole thing to say. There are plenty of people with great attitudes out of work, and they (presumably) probably come to sites like this to learn, distract themselves from their problems and find community — just like those of us with jobs. Don’t paint everyone in that situation with a negative brush just because one unhappy person posted something nasty.

        Louise and everyone else traveling – have a wonderful time! And folks without the means — here’s hoping 2010 is a better year for us all.

  14. How about instead of cocktail glasses or mugs, post a glass and a drink recipe? That’d be fun. Or, just recipes in general.

  15. I’m beginning to suspect that I’m not as put together even on my dressier days as you ladies are on the weekends.

  16. What color shoes should One wear with a navy suit? I had always believed navy shoes were the best choice, but it is nearly impossible to find a decent selection, which leads me to believe they are out of style. Do any of the stylish women hear wear navy shoes? Thanks.

    2. I agree, Anon. Navy shoes are hard for me to find, especially if I want to avoid those that remind me of what a nun might wear! Or plain, low, and boxy. Instead I’ve been wearing grey. I know that C suggests purple at times and I’ve ventured into that. Cordovan/burgundy also, depending on what color top/sweater I’m wearing. However, i am not in Big Law nor On the Hill or anything like that.

    3. I’m not adventurous enough to wear anything but navy pumps with my navy skirt suit. I’ve busted out red kitten heels and brown pumps when I wear the pants of the suit, but when I wear the skirt for the suit, I always wear the navy pumps. It was a pain to find them, though. I have 2 pairs of navy pumps, both of which I found on Nordstrom.com. If you find basic black/brown pumps, sometimes they come in navy too. On the Nordstrom site, you can also search by color.

      To me, when someone wears different color shoes with a navy skirt suit, it always looks funny. I know, I’m odd.

  17. I think the weekend/party clothes idea is a better idea. I always thought the mugs were a cute pic to look at, but they were impractical and unnecessary for me in particular (since I drink neither tea nor coffee). The weekend clothes idea is more in keeping with the theme of this site, and I think you should continue in this vein!

  18. Question about vacations. I’m a new lawyer. My firm gives a very generous amount of vacation time. Whatever we don’t use gets deducted from our billable hour goal. I am hearing from HR that we should take our vacation time. I am taking a day or two before the end of the year and planning to take a little time in the beginning of next year. I also don’t yet know my firm’s actual practices.

    I read above that a girl at another firm was fired for taking vacation time. Should I listen to HR and book some trips or play it safe and just work.

    I’m curious what other lawyers notice as far as the difference between policy and practice.

    1. Do you have a more experienced person at the firm you can ask? Someone you trust and go to for advice on firm culture. If you don’t have a firm mentor, I would highly recommend getting one. The person need not be female.

      1. Ditto. Also, I don’t get what you mean by if you don’t use it, it is deducted from your billable hours, that doesn’t make sense to me. When in biglaw I always took all my vacation, but my dept was often slow with no emergencies (T+E) so nobody minded when I took vacation.

        1. I agree with the suggestion to ask someone more senior who can offer advice regarding your particular firm’s culture. That said, I had dinner with the managing partner and a number of other associates shortly after I started with my firm (now a little over six years ago) and the topic of vacations came up–our MP takes a fabulous trip to somewhere different every year with his family. He told us that no matter how busy we get, and even when we’re associates, we should always take all of our vacation (not for any policy-related reason, he was emphasizing that time off is important). Although I work in a regulatory practice with steady hours and rare emergencies, I always feel a little guilty when scheduling time off, and when I do, I think of our MP’s comment–it’s one of the things that has stuck with me over the years. I like to think that I am not and don’t convey a sense of being overly entitled, but I am very protective of my vacation time and I always use it all.

    2. If it will affect your billable hours, I suggest that you do take the vacation time, but time it right. Don’t decide to sale off to the Bahamas when your firm knee-deep in a high pressure case with an important client (that was probably what got that girl fired). If you work in a fast-paced environment, wait until things slow down a little. Not sure when things slow down? Ask a superior.

      1. I also wouldn’t just *assume* that the girl was fired because she took vacation. It’s just as likely that she was going to be fired regardless of the vacation, particularly since the poster didn’t suggest that the vacation was somehow inappropriate (multiple consecutive weeks, during a particularly busy time, scheduled super late, etc).

  19. Question from a first-year law student! My school (Las Vegas) has a community service requirement where we teach legal aid classes one night a week and I’ll be participating next semester. However, I’m not sure what level of attire would be appropriate. Would it be okay to go with something less casual than a full suit? I was thinking a pencil skirt with a nice blouse and cardigan/sweater would be appropriate (with a good pair of heels, of course), but I also worry about being able to command respect from the participants as a young, female instructor. Any thoughts?

    1. Who are the participants? Are they low-income people looking for legal advice, or undergraduates taking a law course?

      1. “Low-income people looking for legal advice” would be pretty accurate. It’s a foreclosure mediation class, so we run through all the requirements to enter the program and the documents that the people need to get together and then there’s a general Q&A session at the end (it runs about 2 hours). I think the classes have been as large as 80-100.

        1. I worked at a legal aid clinic and as a public defender as a young lawyer and continue to do intake for similar programs on a volunteer basis now. I found that clients were less apt to open up to me or treat me as an equal when I wore my full “lawyer costume” (suit, heels); they were either overly deferential or saw me as a part of the “system” (and, therefore, not on their side and not to be trusted). I usually dressed nicely but not formally when I wasn’t in court – a sweater, slacks/skirt and heels or boots. If you want to be seen as an authority figure, though, go for the suits.

        2. Oh, I should also mention that I actually did work as a summer associate in Las Vegas and I was surprised by how formally attorneys tend to dress there. So I definitely wouldn’t go too casual for your classes, and definitely do wear a full suit if you’ll be going to court.

          1. I’ve heard that from other people as well, and they were theorizing that it was because the judges in Vegas actually tend to be more conservative as sort of a backlash against the culture that thrives on the Strip. I guess it makes sense, but I was expecting more of a Southern California approach to legal fashion. However, everything I’ve seen so far has been more formal, like you’re saying.

            I’m still unsure on the pantyhose issue, though. I grew up in Northern Nevada/California and didn’t even think that people wore pantyhose anymore until I started browsing some of the legal blogs. I may stick to slacks until I can get a good sample of the other female lawyers here.

          2. In Vegas, the rule was hose/closed toed shoes in county/state court except during the hottest summer months, in which case sandals/bare legs were permitted. That was an explicit rule, not implicit.

    2. I would imagine that a pencil skirt and sweater would be fine (I’ve done something kind of similar while I’ve been in law school). But two suggestions. (1) Talk to someone else who has done the program and get an idea of what the participants (both instructors and students wear) and gauge appropriately. (2) If the above doesn’t work, wear a suit with a top that is ok on its own (light weight sweater or blouse) and you can take off the jacket if it’s not needed.

    3. Pencil skirt with nice blouse and sweater sounds good. As my clinic instructors told us when we started, our clients have an idea in their head how a lawyer is supposed to look, and if you look like how you’re “supposed” to, they’ll take you seriously. On the other hand, if you look like a student, then they’ll treat you like a student. I think that rule would go for either low-income people or undergrads.

      To command respect, don’t sound too nervous, take questions you are asked seriously, and give serious answers. Even if a question sounds stupid to you, the person asking may see it as a very serious issue, and you don’t necessarily want to make light of their potentially serious situation. If you show that you are respecting your audience’s time, they’ll respect yours.

      1. My advice: Giving a seminar to 100+ people who desperately need help with foreclosures. Now’s the time to look like a lawyer. Put on a suit.

    4. I recommend skipping the heels and going for a nice pair of flats. When you have to stand up in front of a class and then walk around to answer questions, you want to be in comfortable shoes. When I worked in the clinic a skirt/slacks with a nice blouse or sweater set was the typical attire we wore to met with clients.

    5. Thanks for the fantastic advice, ladies! (And Sarah, your tips on commanding respect are very helpful — I will be keeping them in mind my first day.) I’ll definitely talk to some of the girls who have done the program in the past. We teach in teams, so I might also check with the girls who are teaching with me so I don’t look over/underdressed in comparison to my colleagues.

      On the flat-front, I never realized that was an option! I’ve always equated lawyerly events with “Heels Required.” While I own a couple pairs of 2″ heels that I can wear all day, KLo’s right — in the long run, my knees would probably prefer flats.

      1. I’ve done a lot of domestic violence work and asylum work with immigrants. I would say that biz cas is better than a suit in terms of them not being completely overwhelmed. However, we’d often have our clients meet us at our fancy-schmancy law firm, which totally overwhelmed them. If you are in a somewhat less glitzy environment, you might want to dress more to command respect. When in our office, I found that dressing down really helped them open up!

  20. Please use your holiday entitlements!! My husband (big law partner)was retired at 40 after a complete breakdown, with a huge amount of untaken holiday time which we had begged him to take!! He’ll never work again and regrets that he didn’t look after himself.

    Happy Christmas and a wonderful 2010 to you all, from our home in Sydney Australia, I’ve been watching the news broadcasts and we’re amazed at the amount of snow,please all stay warm and safe.

    1. I agree with this. Vacation is a necessary component of your compensation; no one can work and work and work without any break. Take your time off, and replenish your reserves.

  21. Question about how to deal with office politics.

    I am a 3rd year associate in a small (6 attys, 8 staff members) firm in the midwest. (I actually graduted in 2005, but had a clerkship). My office manager – a former employee of Arthur Anderson – has been gossiping to my managing partner about me on what appears to be a regular basis. I say “appears to be” because he only mentions it to me sporadically, but appears to believe her without asking me for clarification.

    For example, I mentioned offhandedly to her that I was thinking of looking for another job BUT decided against it because one of the partners is retiring. She apparently went to him and told him I had interviews at some large firm and that I was looking around for another job. I didn’t find out about this until much later, when I asked him about the firm’s plans for my “future.” At that point, he informed me that since I was “actively looking for another job,” there were no plans for my future.

    This kind of thing has happened more than once.

    I’ve spoken to him about it, and indicated that I’d like him to ask me about any information she brings him. Unfortunately, he is not doing so. I think she’s trying to get me fired, but I can’t figure out why. Is this something anyone has any experience with? I am at the end of my rope – always stressed and upset at work and it’s affecting my relationship with my managing partner. Any thoughts would be very much appreciated.

    1. First off, never mention to anyone, ever, even “off-handedly,” that you are looking for another job, even if the caveat is “but I decided not to.” I know it seems like it’s not that big of a deal, but people loooove that kind of information. It gives them something to gossip about and gives them leverage over you. I made the mistake in a couple of early jobs of “confiding” in people that I was looking for a new job and it caused nothing but trouble. In one case, my boss actually called me in and angrily asked me how the job search was going. Whoops. I honestly believe the best policy, with job-hunting, is to say absolutely nothing to anyone you work with until you have a solid offer on the table and you want to either negotiate a counter-offer or just straight-up resign. Until you have news worth putting in a formal letter to your boss, say nothing to anyone. Even people you think you can trust. I have seen good friends become enemies when one sold the other out to management about a job search.

      Office politics are tough and I can tell you, 99 percent of the time you cannot identify a reason why someone does that kind of things your office manager is doing. You know now that she cannot be trusted, so stop telling her things. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. If she wants to talk, keep it to “safe” subjects like what you watched on TV last night or where you had dinner. Office gossips will stop trying to get you to dish once they’re unsuccesful a few times. Your manager isn’t going to ask you for “clarification” when he hears something, and even if he does, you’ve seen that he’s more apt to believe the first story he hears. So don’t add any more fuel to the fire.

      Learning how to be pleasant and polite and friendly and a “team player” at work without getting bogged down in BS is a hard skill to learn, but worthwhile. After I had a close friend lose her job to personal issues between her and her boss (she was dating a guy her boss was interested in, and her boss sabotaged her job), I decided that personal life and professional life need to be kept separate. And by “personal life” I mean my personal opinions about the people I work with, my career ambitions and job-search plans, and anything I may be doing outside the office that people would find juicy conversation at the water cooler. It’s just easier not to provide fodder for gossip.

      As for what to do about the office manager – as I said, with most gossips, once you stop feeding her info, she’ll move on to another target. I am not sure that you’ll be able to rebuild total trust at this point with your boss, but it’s worth a shot. Unfortunately, there are toxic gossips like your OM in just about every business; the best tactic is to learn to avoid them like the plague while still being friendly. And keep confessionals out of the office. If you need someone to confide in about work, it should be a friend with no connection to your job, your partner, or a pet. I especially recommend the latter as they’re incapable of telling secrets :)

      Good luck :)

      1. @Amy, you took the words right out of my mouth. I know it can be enticing to vent to a co-worker about your future, your performance review, bonuses, looking for another job, relocating, etc, but DO NOT, EVER. EVER. I’ve learned the hard way. Put your confidences and faith in your family and those who love you dearly, not co-workers.

      2. Amy,

        Thanks for the advice. I have learned my lesson through this situation – the hard way. I am not talking to her any longer (and by not talking, I mean it literally; I have not said a word to her since this whole thing went down) and am mostly keeping to myself at the office. I guess I haven’t mastered the art of polite conversation around the office, although I would honestly like to.

        My gut tells me she is trying to do something to my position at this firm. So I guess my plan is to start looking for another job, even though I really enjoy working with the other attorneys here and like the work I’m doing.

        1. It is hard to overcome the impression that you are not invested in the workplace. I work with a junior attorney who told me that he was looking elsewhere. Now, I am reluctant to have him meet clients or take any real responsibility on any of my cases.

          1. Purpleviolet,

            I understand what you’re saying. I don’t know why my firm would think that I am not invested in the workplace, though. I work six or seven days per week, write articles for relevant journals, present at conferences directed at my areas of practice, take clients out for drinks and dinners, and work around 2300 hours a year. I don’t think that those are the actions of someone who’s just coasting by or who’s not invested in the workplace or the job I’m doing.

            I’m not saying I’m a model employee, by the way. But compared to the other associate who works here (and the few before me), I work longer hours, make more of an effort with clients, and the partners seem to put a lot more trust into my abilities.

            Frankly, the real reason I was thinking about leaving when all of this began was because the firm wasn’t giving me as much autonomy as I wanted AND because I don’t get any feedback (positive or negative) about the job I’m doing. The autonomy issue has since been addressed, but the feedback issue remains.

    2. Well, it’s probably too late for this, but my first advice is don’t tell your office manager you are looking for another job or thinking about looking for another job or thinking positively about someone else who is looking for another job. Don’t tell your office manager ANYTHING of substance. The weather may be a nice topic of conversation.

      Unfortunately, you’ve got some problems with your boss, and asking him to tell you the gossip going around about you is not the way to deal with it. It’s your job to make sure there is no reason for gossip (see above), not his job to help you neutralize it. Honestly, your comments to the office manager show such poor judgment that he has to be questioning your judgment across the board. Sorry if that is harsh, but it is the truth.

      I’d recommend scheduling a sit down with him, telling him that you are not looking for or thinking of looking for another job at this time, that you really see yourself in a future at this firm, etc. Then put your head down and do kick ass work. And, in the meantime, you may want to consider actually looking for another job.

  22. 8 hours of vacation time not taken is credited as 8 hours of time billed. When we take vacations during the year, we are expected to bill zero that week and thus our year end goal is reduced. If we never take it, they just credit us those hours and up the percent of your hours obtained.

    Say our billable hour goal broke down to 40 hours/ per week. On a week w/ one vacation day we are only expected to bill 32 to get 100% for that week.

    And yes I have a mentor and have asked around – I still don’t feel like I have a clear answer. That is why for now I am taking some (not a ton) and watching what others do. I have already seen a couple other older associates take a week here or there.

    1. Honestly, I think that the system your firm has of giving you “credit” toward your billables for time NOT taken is a clear indication that they would love for you to not take time. That said, you HAVE to take time. Otherwise, as others have said, you’ll get burnt out. It may not seem like it early in your career, but trust me, 10 years in it looks different. My firm gives us three weeks – no credit for unused time. My rule of thumb is a total of two weeks – one week of vacation and one week of days here and there for doctor’s appointments, etc. Really, what your firm cares about is billable time. You could take 6 weeks of vaca if you still billed 2200 hours. And you may have trouble with 2 weeks if you only billed 1600.

      1. Ditto. That is a weirdo system. I would treat the billable ‘goal’ as hard and fast. I always billed enough to make my hours based on 48 weeks of work per year. That way, I would start out way ahead and end up at the right place while still taking all my vacation. This is more difficult to do if you are in a more up-and-down field (eg litigation with big cases but nothing in between them), but it can be done. Good luck!

        1. I am going to disagree and say that that actually is a better way to do it. When I was in private practice, you billable requirement was not adjusted unless you were out on disability/maternity – which meant you still had to make up the time in billables even if you took time off. It seems that receive a credit reduction in billable obligation actually lets you take your time without having to make it up later.
          Take sme time though…burnout sucks it….and you will definitely burn out if you don’t get out of the office….

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