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Weekend Open Thread

Something on your mind? Chat about it here.

I started hunting for something for the weekend thread to wear for a Valentine's Day date, but this almost strikes me as a better first or second date top — it's fuzzy and touchable but not overtly S-E-X-Y — and still on trend with the slight crop and square neck. (The crop is subtler than I think it looks here — with some of the other colors you can barely notice the crop.) If you're into crop tops, I like it! It's getting pretty good ratings, has is marked from $59 to $24, and comes in seven colors. Fuzzy Crop Sweater

(Accordingly, two Qs of the day: what is the best first date outfit, for those of you who are looking? Secondly, for those of you who are coupled, do you have plans for Valentine's Day — and what are you wearing? And, I suppose, a third question — what are your feelings about the cropped tops that are everywhere now?)

Looking for something similar but in plus sizes? This blouse is more on the va-va-va-voom side of things, but it's lovely, and comes in size 0-26. 

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168 Comments

  1. Let’s talk travel plans. Are people making travel plans for this spring/summer or postponing them given the Corona virus. Obviously right now it’s a only an issue if you’re flying to certain parts of Asia, but not being a bio or medicine person, I’m kind of wondering whether I should hold off on booking flights (domestic or Europe) for early March — simply because if this spreads, how am I going to feel about being on a plane for 6-8 hours on a trip that I don’t HAVE TO take. I’m kind of hoping this is one of those things that came on quick and then sort of just burns itself out but obviously that won’t be known until I’m paying change/cancellation fees. What are people thinking?

    There are definitely people I work with who are saying they were going to go to Disney over spring break and they’re putting it off — not because there’s any inherent risk in Orlando but just because if it ends up being a bigger deal that it is now, they wouldn’t want to have their kids in an open gathering kind of situation and then it’ll cost them $$ to cancel.

    1. I’m not changing my plans. I have a trip booked to Jamaica in April with a group of people that are meeting from various countries – mostly Europe and Canada. I have to travel to Colorado for work next month.

      1. *Coworkers. Lol some are friends too. As a group they’re germophobic — like wiping down hotel rooms etc — and I’m with them so much that sometimes I wonder if I’m being crazy but not overthinking or if they’re being crazy.

        1. I do NOT want to go somewhere I will get sick, so I would not fly anywhere and Dad says to stay away from China. Also, I would stay away from places where there are a lot of people in close quarters, such as the Subway and I will not walk through Grand Central Station, but will stay outside. We need to avoid people who are sick also, b/c you do NOT know what kind of virus they have.

    3. This totally depends on the state of things. This could peter out as flu season ends and as governments are responding to the spread. Or it could get much worse. If it’s worse, I am canceling travel on planes (I have a condition that makes respiratory illness easier to catch and harder to get over) simply because of the recycled air. Travel driving my own car, no plans to cancel, as the news, at least so far, is that this spreads like a regular flu (primarily droplets from sneezes or spit/mucous from infected persons) so as long as you wash your hands frequently, avoid touching your face, and avoid sick people, you should be okay.

      2. That’s irrelevant, this is not the flu. This is a virus strain that previously only infected animals. There was literally no reason a vaccine would have ever been prepared. Luckily the turn around time from discovery to vaccine of new flu-like virus outbreaks is a lot quicker than it was around the time of SARS.

        1. I think the point is that flu is way more likely to kill you than SARS was or than this virus likely is, and it’s hypocritical at best and racist at worst to panic about this virus if you haven’t even protected yourself against the common flu.

          1. Racist? What? How is worrying about catching a virus that has already presented itself in the US racist? NOT. EVERYTHING. IS. ABOUT. RACE.

          2. Because you are FAR MORE LIKELY to catch the flu which is also far more likely to be deadly…

          3. Because the flu is literally thousands of times more likely to kill you (8000+ deaths this year in the US alone) but it started from white people so no one is ever panicking about it.

          4. Nope don’t care that the flu started in whites. I care that they know what the flu is, how it spreads, they don’t resort to contact tracing when someone gets the flu. Scream race all you want . . . . In response to OP — I’m dragging my feet on booking travel simply because I don’t want to be on long flights until they have some more idea of how this is spreading.

          5. No one is quarantining entire cities over the flu. China has the most information about this virus, and they’re treating it as a much bigger deal than the flu.

            Most countries do not recommend or provide the flu shot for everyone; that’s largely a US phenomenon. So I’m not seeing how it’s racist or xenophobic to forego the flu shot and be more concerned about Corona virus.

    5. I only have 2 domestic trips planned – LA in late Feb and Florida in March. I fully expect I’ll end up going but TBH I am dragging my feet on booking flights even though I know it’ll end up costing me money for my delay. I’d like to give it another 7-10 days to see how it plays out. Hard to know what’s real vs media, hard to know if cases will jump a lot in other countries etc.

    6. I’m going to Asia in March and am absolutely not considering changing my plans.

    7. Absolutely would not change plans. I wish people as concerned about real risks (Get your flu shot; vaccinate your kids, wash your hands!) as they seem to be about this coronavirus.

    8. I’m immunocompromised and will be keeping an eye on this outbreak, but I’m not at the point of altering any travel plans yet. I think we need to know more first.

    9. I think this is insane. As discussed the other day, way more people will die of seasonal flu than this virus, unless it becomes way more deadly or starts spreading way faster. I know there was a lot of panic about SARS in ‘03, but it resulted in 27 cases and 0 deaths in the US. The flu infects millions and kills thousands every year.
      To answer your question, I have trips to NYC in April and Scotland in July planned and no thoughts of cancelling. I wouldn’t be keen to book a flight to China right now but would not hesitate to go anywhere else in Asia.

      1. Airlines are recognizing that people aren’t keen to go to Asia — Delta is apparently allowing cancellations or changes to China flights anywhere (not just the affected provinces) with no fees. And Marriott is allowing room cancellations all over the country as well with no fees. Rare for hotels and airlines to do this kind of thing — usually it’s nickel and diming as they tell you it’s YOU that wants to change, no circumstance requiring the change OR they limit changes to the small geographic area most affected not an entire country.

        1. No, this is a totally standard thing for airlines to do. A couple weeks ago there was an earthquake in southeast Puerto Rico and they let you change flights to San Juan, even though San Juan was basically unaffected. And China isn’t synonymous with Asia.

    10. Not changing travel plans; I have domestic and international travel planned through early summer, none involving Asia.

    11. We’re going to California in April. We haven’t made the arrangements yet, but we RSVP’d to the wedding and it would be low-key rude of us to bail just because there’s a virus in China. If it spreads to CA before then, sure, we’ll cancel, otherwise, YOLO and all that stuff. I want to live my life while I can, who knows what catastrophic event might happen in the near future?

    12. I’m Chicago area and planning a meeting in May. It’s the first time we’re doing this conference. I have to admit it has me nervous. But I’m also nervous about a gazillion other things with the programming and stuff right now.

  2. I need advice. I supervise a team member who is, hands-down, great at her job. I see a real future for her and want to help her advance. The problem is her grammar. She says “I seen it” and “I have went” and other multiple participle abuses. She is public facing and advancement would require additional face time with higher ups. Is this a legitimate problem? Is it my place to help her? If so, how would I go about that without destroying her confidence?

    1. You are a supervisor, so yes. And it’s not a flaw with her or an indication of character. There is a “My Fair Lady” aspect to it, but maybe a diction or elocution coach would be good for her to go to so it’s not the two of you but the equivalent of taking a continuing ed class to help you at your job. Or Toastmasters?

    2. Yes, as her supervisor this is something you should help her with especially if this could hinder her advancement opportunities.

    3. Yes, this is trainable and it’s necessary for her job to sound as competent as she is.

    4. Make sure you’re positive it’s a problem first. I tend to speak a much more vernacular English among close coworkers, friends, etc than I do when speaking in front of a group or with, say, my boss’ boss.

    5. Following because i have a similar issue- an associate that uses UM in every oral presentation. I’d love to talk with her about this in a constructive way- what resources can I suggest to help with this?

      1. do you mean umm (verbal tic) or is UM an acronym that I don’t know. If it’s the former, I once got a pretty good tip from a presentation coach. You’d obviously flag this issue for her first and how it affects how people perceive her. If she agrees and wants to work on it, you would then help her become aware of when she is doing it. Ideally the two of you would rehearse an upcoming presentation, but it also works in regular one-on-one meetings. Whenever she says umm, you snap your fingers. When I have seen this, it sometimes only takes two snaps, and then the speaker becomes hyperaware of the tic, and the next time instead of umm there will be a noticeable pause, but within a few minutes of awkwardness it will get significantly better. Again, this would need to happen with her consent, because there needs to be a base of trust that you are actually coaching her and not just mocking. But it’s pretty effective.

    6. I haven’t done this in the work context, but did with my husband. His grammar wasn’t horrid, but left a lot of room for improvement when we met. I knew he had already made efforts to modify his manner of speaking and word choice to sound more educated. So I asked at some point if he wanted help with his grammar and he did. When he makes a mistake and we are alone, I tell him what the mistake is and why his usage is incorrect. I do not do so when we are with others. He now identifies mistakes by other people and feels much more confident. It does take tremendous repetition and practice because she has been using the incorrect phrases her entire life and they sound correct to her. So I don’t think one class or one explanation will be sufficient.

      I don’t have suggestions about how this translates into the work place. Only that if the person is receptive and the message is delivered kindly, there is a lot to gain. Clearly you know this; I hope your coworker is interested.

    7. I think you would be doing her a kindness to discuss this with her. I would frame it as having more professional language would make you more polished/is more appropriate to take you to the next level. Give her a few examples, but perhaps don’t take on the full task of teaching her English because the constant correction of something that seems like a basic task can be demeaning/discouraging. In my experience, everyone thinks they’re doing English correctly already lol. If anything, set aside a certain time to observe her and give her feedback, or let her know you’ll be correcting a certain written communication — so she can see what you mean and practice more broadly. Maybe suggest some kind of business communication course, online grammar activities, or a tutor as professional development. Can she do it on company time/would the company fund it? Recognize that this is a skill that will probably take time to develop over several months unless she knows the difference already and has somehow just decided to speak informally.

    8. Is this something that could be included under the umbrella of “executive presence?” It seems that some of those resources, including coaching, could be helpful here without having to be specifically targeted toward her grammar when you approach it with her.

    9. Please do not frame this as an issue with grammar. This is an issue of dialect. It is a myth that the standardized dialect taught in schools is grammatically superior or “more correct” compared with other English dialects. It may well be that it would be beneficial to her to use standard English, since classist discrimination is common, and since world English more closely resembles the standardized dialect. But I would bet a lot that her English is clear, comprehensible, and linguistically grammatical.

      1. So are you saying I shouldn’t address it or that I should address it in terms of dialect?

        1. I would just avoid characterizing one community’s way of speaking as correct. Learning and employing different speech patterns, dialect, and mannerisms is often encapsulated as part of code switching. It might be best addressed as part of a conversation about goals and strategies, since ultimately it’s a strategy to achieve a goal. There’s research that it’s better to add the new dialect as another option than to replace the one we grew up with.

  3. I’m OK with cropped meaning coming to the waist of mid-rise pants. I am not OK with crops coming above the waist of mom jeans. I’ve got a fairly short torso and for once I am happy not to be swimming in clothes built for a larger frame. OTOH, still not feeling the need to wear clothing that creates a draft this time of year.

    1. I mean, I wouldn’t wear this now. But this is what I think of when I hear crop top, something that shows part of your stomach, and is what I liked as a teenager.

  4. Quick question, when you refer to “paying your credit card in full,” do you mean the statement balance or the current balance? I’ve always preferred to do the latter since I like to see it zero out, but my husband prefers the opposite.

    3. I don’t even understand. Is the difference pending charges that are not reflected on the statement?

      We pay the statement balance in full. May as well get the interest free float on pending charges until the next statement.

      1. No, there are posted charges that aren’t part of the statement balance. Usually it will be something like, you pay Jan 1-31 charges on February 20, but by February 20 your “current balance” will include Feb 1-17, as well as the pending charges from the last few days.

    5. I always pay the statement balance. I could pay the current balance, since it’s not like I’m getting a lot of interest during that time, but I just don’t see a reason to.

    6. The statement balance. Paying more is giving your credit card company an interest-free loan.

    7. Statement balance. Why pay extra early?
      Plus, for the items that have been charged but aren’t yet due, there is a high likelihood that we’ll return at least some of them — thereby preventing us from paying for it upfront, but waiting until the next charge cycle to get the refund.

    8. I’ve heard that if you pay the statement balance, it impacts your credit (slightly) negatively because it will meet the definition of “carrying a balance.” That was my reasoning for paying the current (along with the satisfaction of zeroing out). I could be wrong though.

      1. I have my account set up to automatically pay the statement balance. I figure that is what I need to do not to incur interest, i.e. the minimum goal. I am however also following my credit score pretty closely. There is definitely a small portion of the score that changes whenever I have a higher balance than usual. When I pay it off, the score usually recovers within 2-3 weeks though. The variation is maybe 5-8 points, so it’s not a huge factor in my overall score.

        1. The variation is probably because your overall credit utilization affects your credit score. If you make a large purchase on your credit card (a vacation, new appliances, etc.,) and you have the cash on hand, it’s may be worth it to pay that balance off early. On the other hand, credit scores rebound pretty quickly when your overall utilization goes down again.

          1. Yeah that’s what I meant. So, ‘carrying a balance’ would mean NOT to pay the statement balance in full, which is a problem for your credit score. ‘Credit utilization’ is what I meant. It does impact your credit, but to me the impact is so small that it’s not worth the effort to manually pay everything off all the time. Autopay can handle it and if I ever need these extra 5 points, I could just keep my balance low for 2 months and the ding from my utilization rate will go away.

        2. Shes not wrong though. Say you have a credit card with a $10,000 limit. One month you spend $8,000. When your statement is released you plan to pay it off in full. Nevertheless, once that statement hits, you have a 80% credit utilization on that card. Your score will likely go down a few points. Then you pay it off and the next month only spend $3,000, so your utilization rate goes down to 30% and you credit score will probably jump back up. The best way to handle this issue in terms of maintaining a high credit score is to pay the entire balance right before the statement issue so that when the statement hits, you have a zero or very close to zero balance. But it’s long term impact is so small most people don’t care enough to do that. Me included.

      4. This is correct because what the credit cards report is whether 1. you pay the minimum on time and 2. what your total ending balance is at the time the statement is issued. If you pay the statement balance, your next ending balance will be the full prior month’s charges.

        1. As someone mentioned above, it’s credit utilisation that matters + behaviour (revolver, transactor, etc.) on your billing cycle end, not your month end.

          Your utilisation rate depends much, much more on whether you fill up your card each month than the ending balance. For example, I never use up mor thatn a third of my limit in any given month, unless I am buying A holiday for the whole family and even then am below half limit.

          Also, credit card behaviour is evaluated at the cycle date, not the month date, i.e. Nobody cares at all about the end-of-month balance unless your utilisation rate is already very high. They care about end of cycle balance, so if you pay the statement, you’re golden.

          Source: I created credit risk strategies for a large bank.

          FWIW, credit buraus and banks care about seevral months behaviour a lot more than one month, too, even if recent month.

          And also, a few days occasianal delay in paying (if you forgot), if still less than one cycle delay, is counted as 0 delinquency because delinquency is typically evaluated in number of cycles late. I am NOT recommending that you are habitually late with your payments, jsut don’t want you to lose sleep over 1 day delay because you were travelling or something.

  6. I’ve taken 2 home pregnancy tests and both say I’m pregnant. I went off the pill about 5 years ago and this is the first pregnancy “scare” I’ve had so I had kind of decided that kids weren’t in the cards for me and my husband and was making peace with it. I’ve scheduled a doctor’s appointment for next week to confirm but I can’t really think about anything else. It’s too early to say anything to friends or family yet but I’ve been dying to tell someone.

    1. Congratulations? I’m not clear if this is good news for you, but if it is… so exciting! You’ve got this either way.

      1. Thank you! I’m still really surprised by it all. I’m in my late 30s so I was pretty much convinced we were just running the clock out and I feel like I’ll be jinxing it if I get too excited, but this is good news!

        1. If at first you don’t succeed, try try again. And you have been trying and succeeding, so that you are now pregnant, you can finally take a break from the s-x, which can be a good thing, at least until the baby gets developed enough so that you can go back and have s-x with regularity.

    4. Sorry if this comes across as momsplaining, but be sure you are taking folic acid (even if you are not sure). It is critical in the early stages of pregnancy.

      I hope you get the result you want!

    5. Heck yeah!! I vote you should really embrace this hopeful time and even enjoy keeping this special knowledge to yourself :)

  7. Too late to comment on this morning’s thread re woke olympians. I wish that people like that would send detailed Christmas letters (electronically, without killing trees, and without using electronic devices powered by evil). I will read them wearing my hair shift while weeping about the wretch I’ve become.

    2. I skipped that thread, so I thought you were talking about Olympians who were woke about, like, racial issues or something and I was intrigued.

      But no . . . I think we should feel encouraged to do what we can, and share tips on how to do better, but at the end of the day, we all need to pick our battles. If you wanna go live in a hippie commune, live off the grid, swear off cars, and only use handmade soap and eat veggies you grow yourself, that’s your business, don’t expect everyone to follow suit because it’s not feasible for everyone.

      1. I think we should do that as well, but people also need to reduce the defensiveness every time a new tip comes up. If it doesn’t apply to you, just ignore it – no need to respond with “omg not all of us can forgo Amazon and travel to Europe on daddy’s credit card, princess” and so on.

  8. Reporting back on Snag tights — I’m not thrilled with the quality, as they’re fraying/running on the third wear. Has anyone tried Sheertex? Do they resist fraying right where a knee-high boot would rub? That’s the spot that always goes first for me. Thanks!

    1. Yes! I have a pair of Sheertex and I LOVE them. The dogs jump up on them claws first, I have put them through the washing machine loose with a regular clothes load, worn them under breeches while riding, basically treated them like cheap leggings, and they are good as new.

    2. Ah, Sheertex. I have several pair, but two of them have fallen victim to sharp-edges-under-meeting-tables. They are great for things like their famous “stomp test” but haven’t held up for me when they encounter anything mildly sharp.

    3. They have a baggy crotch. I have encountered this personally and have read this on other review sites as well.

      Furthermore, the company is very shady on their return policy. They say they have an unbreakable guarantee but then return shipping is like $15. Also, they won’t offer exchanges since it’s a personal item. So, if the size or color doesn’t work for you, you’re screwed. Oh, and baggy, sagging crotch that you have to pull up throughout the day, doesn’t count as an eligible reason for return.

      I love the concept but the customer experience can be certainly be improved.

  9. Great topic, I’ve been having trouble putting together date night outfits in the winter. What are everyone’s favorites right now?

    1. Either my hiking or ski gear for an outdoorsy date or bathrobe and no pants for a couch date :)

      1. I am never more of a smug married person than on Friday nights in the winter when I can chill on my couch in flannel jammies with my family and a cozy blanket.
        To answer your question seriously – black jeans (with heels if going straight from car to indoors, boots if not) and a ‘cute’ sweater – the degree of cuteness is inversely proportional to the weather. I have a few of these as my ‘it is cold as hell but I can’t just wear my patagonia 3/4 zip’. Size down, and they are cozy cute.
        https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/120223?page=signature-cotton-fisherman-tunic-sweater-colorblock&bc=&feat=fishermans%20sweater-SR0&csp=a&attrValue_0=Gray%20Birch&searchTerm=fishermans%20sweater

        1. I am all for wearing a cute sweater and skinny jeans for a first date, but it is VERY dangerous to bring a strange man into your apartment for a date wearing only your bathrobe and no pants, as the OP suggested. Look what happened to Annabella Sciorra! Men are not interested in discussing politics with a woman so scantily dressed. In fact, Dad says it is actually an open invitation to let a man move right in and push aside, or actually remove what little you have on covering your most intimate of bodily parts. Once this happens, you know what happens next–his pant’s are off in a matter of seconds, and if you are married, that is not an issue, but if you are not, you could get pregnant, or worse, an STD. FOOEY on that! Please be careful b/c this only can give men ideas that you may regret, as the testimony relating to the Annabella Sciora incident suggest she really did NOTHING to encourage what happened to her. DOUBEL FOOEY on ALL men that seek to take advantage of us.

    2. I have voted not to freeze. I have tried for a Lara from Dr. Zhivago look but IRL it looks a bit Amish when I try, so I’ve settled on sweater dress + tights + boots. I used to have snug ones, but they got too tight and now it’s shift shaped ones or ones that are a bit flowy.

    3. Very #basic, but: Free People ottoman tunic over Spanx faux leather leggings with either Rothys slip on sneakers or knee high black boots, depending on formality.

      1. This is my go to outfit as well but I pair either with Shoreline Chucks or a pair of pointy toe D’orsay flats.

    5. Slinky black turtleneck, high-waist skinny jeans, Docs. It’s really a coin toss as to whether I look like sexy Elizabeth Holmes or that pic of The Rock wearing a fanny pack. I’m fine either way honestly.

    7. On my first date with my guy, it was cold so I wore jeans, tan OTK boots and a fleece top. But in general, I like to wear jeans, boots or booties and a pretty top, either a sparkly long sleeved tee or a tank with a cool jacket.

  10. Is anyone else in their late 40s on the pill? I am and am just wondering how that works with obscuring if you’ve reached menopause / perimenopause. I have an OB/GYN appointment coming up, but my OB is younger than me and maybe not even 40 (I’m 49). No woman in my family has hit menopause that I know off — my mother and aunt had fibroids / hysterectomies and my grandmothers aren’t around to ask.

    FWIW, I had a polyp and the bleeding wouldn’t stop after the polyp was removed, but the BCP stopped it. I’m not about to quit, just curious.

    1. Your OB/GYN’s age has nothing to do with if they medically recommend the pill or not. Just saying, don’t discount them just because they’re a few years from going through what you’re going through.

      For what it’s worth, any recommendation you get will be based on personal history. Majority of women are fine, some women have a stroke from BCP in late 40s – don’t scare yourself with horror stories.

      1. It’s really of no consequence if the pill masks the natural ending of your period. You may (or may not) get the other symptoms of menopause – hair thinning, disrupted sleep cycles, etc. – what the pill really does is help tamp down what is the biggest disruption to many women, the hot flashes. Depending on the pill you take, it’s pretty much the same thing as moving to hormone replacement therapy. I myself don’t know exactly when I “naturally” ended my periods, but it doesn’t really matter medically at all.

    2. I wasn’t on the pill, but I had a Mirena IUD in my mid- and late 40s (and was on the pill for, like, 20-plus years before that). It stopped my period and then by the time I had it taken out at… what? 49? my period never started up again and I had missed the whole thing. I also never had any hot flashes or other symptoms that I attributed to menopause. I did have some mood swings that may have been hormonal or may have been more related to being in the death throes of a truly horrible marriage.

      So… for me the hormonal birth control pretty much masked the whole thing.

      1. Oh SA, this gives me so much hope that this will happen for me. I have had a Mirena for 15 years and am due for replacement next year at 44. They told me I can get it one more time, for 5 years, and by the time I am 49 I might be through menopause. My mom didn’t get fully through menopause till 55 though, so I don’t know how optimistic to be. I have a coworker who got tested at 48 and found out she was fully through menopause and never had any symptoms at all – it seems like it’s so different for everyone.

        1. I’m 47 and due to replace my Mirena this year. Last year, my OB/GYN said I can do 2 more rounds of IUDs to take me up to/through menopause. She mentioned an IUD from a non-profit, but I can’t remember the name of it. It could be Liletta, not sure. I’m looking at 2x 5 yrs (Mirena) or 2 x 3 yrs (Liletta)…

    3. I am 51 and went off the pill to see if I had gone through menopause. Nope! Full periods continuing. So I went back on the pill – mostly for acne control.

  11. Sorry to spam this board with a mom question, but it feels like most of the people over there have younger children, and for the novel-length post.

    If your in-laws (who can afford it) offered to pay for your kids to go to private school, would you accept if that meant that your children would be going to a “better”, although less diverse school? Or make them stay where they are? Would the fact that they both really want to leave (one more than the other) play a role?

    As background: My family recently moved and my children were assigned to a school that would not have been our first choice, but I decided to send them both because our only real choice was private school ($$$$) and because I thought being in a more diverse environment would be good for them. My son has mostly been fine. He is pretty adaptable and outgoing.

    My daughter, who is shyer and more academically inclined, HATES it with a burning passion. She is starting to have disciplinary issues – reading a book under her desk when she should be paying attention (“I already know this stuff”); a little bit of passive-aggressive disrespect – which I find unacceptable although her teachers have assured me that they see much worse. To make it even more fun, her brother is now having issues because he is defending her and is worried what happens next year when he moves up to high school and leaves her behind. (No official report was made but I learned through the grapevine that he punched a boy who snapped her bra strap.)

    Over the holidays she related all of this to my in-laws (sobbing the whole time). My son then backed her up, although he was much calmer. My FIL said (in front of them, which did not make me happy) that he will pay private school tuition for them both. So now I have a choice to make. Part of me wants to tell her that she needs to learn to deal. Part of me wants to make them happy. Part of me is wondering how much I am messing up my relationship with both of my children (my son has already told me that I love my political correctness more than my children and that this is my fault because we moved here for my job so I “should do this for her”; he is not as dramatic as she is, but is very determined and – quietly – very angry with us).

    Thoughts?

    1. Oh yikes. This sounds like an intense situation. I’m guessing your kids are in middle school or high school? While your FIL was wrong to bring up the private school option in front of the kids, but if I were in your shoes, I would take it. Your kids are unhappy, and your daughter’s behavior is actually regressing. I would say there is potential for more long-term damage in that situation than your kids being in a school that’s less diverse. What does your DH think?

      1. +1 I’d be annoyed at how this was raised too, but I would take it, at least for your daughter, and your son if he wants (but I would also let him stay public if that’s what he prefers).

      2. +2. I think what you’re trying to do is commendable, but I’ll tell you that my parents did the exact same thing to me in middle school (I moved in 8th grade) and it was terrible. Had private school been an option that wouldn’t have crippled our family’s finances, I would have jumped at that opportunity. The school I attended was a step back academically from my previous school. I spent most of 8th grade reading Danielle Steele books on my lap during class and forgetting what I’d already learned about algebra. High school was moderately better, but I wasn’t a shy/introverted kid. They will hate you if they know they have this option and you’re not allowing them to take it all in the name of public school.

        1. +10000. Please listen to your kids and take the money. I moved in 6th grade to a new school district because of my family’s finances and HATED my school with a burning passion (and by extension, my actually-competent-in-hindsight teachers). I was ostracized for being nerdy all through junior high and didn’t have friendsbecause people who actually do their homework were not appreciated.

          I begged my parents to go to private school, academic boarding school for underprivileged kids, switch to a different school district (but we had a three bedroom and my parents didn’t want to downsize to a smaller apartment), have my relatives in a better school district in a different country adopt me so I can go to a different school, charter school, dropping out of school and getting GED, shoot for a scholarship at at private school, ANYTHING really, to get out of my assigned school. I became extremely anxiety-ridden and depressed.

          My parents shot everything down without even entertaining the thought that I was actively miserable at school and told me I would just have to deal. 15+ years later, I’m still in therapy for years and actively resentful that they didn’t do anything to try to make it better. I get now that they didn’t have the money for full-fledged private schools, but the lack of other options and the desperation and frustration of feeling outcast, unheard and dismissed nearly crippled me and I nearly killed myself. Academically I overcompensated and worked myself to death (without any tutoring) to get into a specialized high school that took students through entrance exams so I could get the hell out of the miserable school districy, and I was much happier and had friends that I still actively keep up with (they were mostly there for the same reason that I was — no money, bur academically inclined and miserable at their junior high schools).

          All this was in Asia, in a country with generally “good” public education, so the removed from the racial considerations on this thread. Being in a socioeconomically diverse school district did nothing for me — people tended to group off into which neighborhoods and backgrounds they were from, and apart from the occasional group project, kids didn’t mingle between all that much. And God help you if your sort doesn’t exist in that school.

    2. I think you should listen to your children, especially since they, with very different personalities, are both on the same page about this. I can’t get over that your son punched someone, presumably on school grounds, and there were no disciplinary consequences for him. Not saying he wasn’t provoked, but it means that punching is NBD at the school.

      1. I can’t get over that some boy had his hands on her underwear and she obviously didn’t feel empowered to discuss this with you or the school.

        2. You really made this sound a lot more victim blaming than I think you intended. The boys were in the wrong and girls are constantly, CONSTANTLY socialized to laugh it off, be the cool girl, don’t make a fuss, etc etc. When they do try to speak up, they’re never taken seriously or believed. I hope that times have changed for at least some girls, but until they REALLY change, girls are not going to feel “empowered” to “discuss it with the school.”

          1. Ok, what I meant was: I can’t get over that some boy had his hands on her underwear and neither the school nor the parents apparently created an environment that would have empowered her daughter to speak up.
            In no way was it my intention to blame the daughter.

          2. I’m not the Anon above, but I think it’s totally unfair to blame her parents for not “empowering her to speak up.” Bra snapping was sadly extremely common at my (affluent, predominantly white) middle school in the 1990s. I assume teachers who witnessed it didn’t ignore it, but boys had a talent for doing it away from prying eyes, and I don’t know any girls that ever told anyone about it. It was seen as not a big deal (I’m NOT saying it’s no big deal, I’m saying that’s what 12-13 year old girls were socialized to believe) and it was something that you felt you just had to laugh off. Fwiw, I also know girls who went through much worse, including, in one case, rape, and never told their parents. I know the parents of my friend who was raped very well and they are wonderful parents who should not be blamed in any way for their daughter feeling like she couldn’t publicly name her rapist. Statistics bare out this anecdote that it is not uncommon for sexual abuse victims to keep their abuse secret, even from people who love them and would do their best to protect them. Rapists and sexual abusers are the people to blame for rape and sexual abuse, period. (And I suppose people who directly enable them, like a teacher who witnesses the abuse and does nothing. But loving parents of the victim in no way enabled an abuser.)

        3. When I was in grade school, a boy snapped the bra of a girl in our class. I’ll never forget his name and stayed away from him. Even now, people in the town know him as the person who snapped the girl’s bra. And there were no consequences for him. This was over 40 years ago…..

    3. It sounds like your daughter is actively unhappy. Your FIL saw that and, although he raised it the wrong way, he’s offering an opportunity to try something different. I’d take it.

      FWIW, I’d have the same response if you put your kids in private school and they were this unhappy. Make a change, and see how it goes.

      2. And this right here is why I am having a hard time. I really do not want to be that person who says something like this. Or even the person who is thinking it but doesn’t say it.

        And to the person who is shocked that my son punched someone without consequence- that gave me pause too. Apparently the kid who got hit (and his friends) knew that he would get punished for snapping her bra strap and no adults saw this happen, which is why there were no consequences.

        1. This person is racist and assumes all brown kids are “a nightmare” and live in “the hood”- you are considering switching schools because your daughter is being bullied and the academics are better. It’s different. Just do what’s best for your kids and don’t raise them to think like this monster.
          Also, is that private school really the only option? Are there other private schools with more diverse student populations? I’ve found that to be the best middle ground – granted not all cities have good private schools that are good *cough* Chicago segregation *cough*

        2. wow, I don’t agree at all with anon above who wants the poor kids to stay where they belong. But it’s not so binary. Forcing your kids to stay in public school won’t be a guarantee that they are committed to the same societal principles as you are. Allowing them to go to private doesn’t guarantee that they turn into spoiled brats. Them being friends with spoiled brats at 16 doesn’t have to define them for the rest of their life. You could figure out what the school is doing for diversity. Maybe there is an opening to make a difference there.

      3. Wow. My “diverse” Hispanic children are not a nightmare and it makes me sad someone would think of them that way.

    5. Middle school sucks no matter what. I’m not a teacher, but I tend to think the curriculum is intentionally somewhat lame and the goal is just to get the kids through the onset of puberty and on to high school in more or less one piece. If I could go back and delete those three years from my childhood, I would happily do so and wouldn’t wish it on anyone. I’m sorry she’s having a rough time and am not sure a change of schools would solve the problem, rather it would just introduce a different set of assholes and probably still uninspiring curriculum.

      1. My spouse is a middle school teacher and there is some truth to this. Middle school is not the time to teach the most important things academically. Now… I myself was bored out of my ever loving mind in middle school (seriously, we played cards in class) , stayed home all the time, and hated it soooooo much.

        1. Middle school is a great time to learn important things academically. Maybe the schools need smaller class sizes and more supervision to achieve a better environment for teaching during these years?

    6. How much of this is due to the move, and how much of this is due to the particular school your kids are in? Even if they go to the private school (which is the move I’d make if the academics are better – depending on the private school’s culture – I’d rather have a temporarily unhappy kid than a coked up or pill popping addict brat), she might have these same issues fitting in and finding new friends.
      Moving new schools will temporarily placate your daughter but you probably need to 1) get more tough love when it comes to proper behavior in school – it’s not acceptable no matter how miserable she claims to be, and 2) if you can afford it, get her a therapist that can help her process all these changes.

      And don’t shoot the messenger, but how much of these issues stem from you not exposing your kids to people different from you? Your daughter’s distress at going to a diverse school and your son mentioning your “political correctness” are definitely subtle signs that they aren’t comfortable around large amounts of non-white and/or non-wealthy people which is an issue. You need to take them out of their bubble to meaningfully interact with kids different from them so you don’t raise intolerant kids. Are there outside of school clubs they can join to help them get more friends in the community and become comfortable with kids different from them?

      1. Wow this is so off-base. Her daughter isn’t being challenged in school and was assaulted – you read that as “she’s not comfortable around large amounts of non-white people?” I can’t even with you right now.

      2. OK, slow your roll here. How do you know anything about OP’s family, and what her children may or may not be comfortable with? Is the public school 40% white? 20%? 60% what is your threshold for “diverse”? Is there a quota that YOU feel will make HER daughter comfortable around “large amounts of non-white people”? How about if she is just comfortable around people in general, which is difficult when you are probably not even comfortable with yourself due to puberty, awkwardness, just moving, and everything else at that age?

    7. I wish that boys who snapped bra straps would be put on a rocket and shot into the sun. I remember how infuriating that was and how there were absolutely no consequences for it and just reading it here brings back that anger and helplessness.

      1. Yes. I’m not one bid mad at either your son or your in-laws. Take the offer.

    8. Take the money. They are miserable in a school that wasn’t even your choice after you made them move. There’s an option for them not to be.

    9. I would absolutely 100% take the offer. Most private schools are SO much more diverse these days and your kids are not going to be happy staying in public based on what you’ve described.

    10. Definitely take the money. Supporting diversity does not mean being around literally any diverse group of people, no matter how terrible they treat your children. One of the main reasons I work so hard is so I could send my kids to a school of my choice of they are bullied at our neighborhood schools. I remember being a bullied academically minded kid in a public school. They will not learn whatever lesson you are trying to teach them. They will learn that school stinks. They may decide that diversity is bad.

      I flourished when I switched to private school because I was around other kids who shared my interest and teachers who challenged me. It was the right choice, even though I was one of the few Black kids at a predominantly white school. And you know what? I made friends with different backgrounds. It was great.

    11. Does your FIL know what private tuition for two kids will cost? Is the offer for middle school or until college?

      What you REALLY do not want is your kids to go, the FIL to get sick of paying $40-$100k/yr or run out of money and they are out of private school again.

    12. I think if your otherwise reasonable decently behaved children are having these kinds of issues (ie your son is worried / angry, your daughter is sobbing to her grandparents) you need to do what you can to make a change for them. Diversity is fundamentally about building empathy and respect for people with different backgrounds and viewpoints which can be achieved through a number of different avenues.

      I don’t think many of us would react well to being bored all day with nothing to do about it (at work we can all usually read the internet) coupled with being bullied / ostracized.

    13. First thank you to everyone who commented (except for the one super racist person/troll whose post was deleted who needs to seriously re-examine their values). My husband and I are going to sit down this weekend when the kids are not home and talk about our options. I was already feeling really guilty about uprooting them and this has not been helping so I guess I mostly wanted permission to move them even if it does not 100% align with my supposed values. Honestly I do not even know what our private school options are so I supposed I should start looking into that.

      And to answer some of the questions that came up (1) my children have NOT been well exposed to large numbers of non-white, non-Asian people – but since we came from a state and city that was very white and Asian, that was not a question of not exposing them so much as just the result of where we lived. I think/hope the problem is more lack of exposure to people in different socio-economic groups but maybe I am fooling myself; (2) my in-laws have already put several hundred thousand dollars in their college accounts and yes, they can afford it and know how much it costs (they inherited money from my FIL’s parents and basically put it all aside for their grandchildren, i.e. my children since they are the only ones); and (3) part of my problem is that I am not sure how much of this is just middle school is h*ll and how much is THIS school. My daughter was a happy and well-adjusted – if occasionally dramatic – child before this. Honestly the fact that her brother – who is the least dramatic person on the planet is so adamant she should be moved is probably what sent my FIL over the edge. For a lot of complicated reasons, my son is very protective of his sister (hence the punching).

      Thanks again.

    14. My parents had the $$ but decided to put me in public school to toughen me up. I am a brainy introvert and it was a really bad fit for me. I would take the offer.

    15. It sounds like this school is falling short of meeting your daughter’s need for an education that challenges her in a safe environment. I can’t imagine how miserable I would have been in school if they had cracked down on reading under the desk. A good teacher doesn’t have to require attention from a motivated student.

      1. (And to be clear, I really, really doubt the issue is that your daughter isn’t motivated. It’s the motivated students who struggle most in subpar classrooms.)

        1. ++. If your daughter is academically inclined, at the very least I would look into EPGYor enrichment classes with a different peer group or camps for your kids in an area that they aee interested in (art, music, theater, writing, science, whatever) that would allow them to meet like-minded friends. Being bored in an unruly classroom is a recipe for disaster for motivated kids. Of the 10 kids in my school of 300 who were academically inclined, 1 dropped out of school to take the GED (she got her high school diploma 3 months after dropping out of middle school), and 5 defected to specialized high schools like I did. Half of them were so bullied (sometimes by the teachers because they were reading something else or not listening in class) and/or had behavior problems that had their parents being summoned all the time.

          According to them, the saving grace for most of them were the friends they had outside of school at prep classes for specialized high schools or summer magnet camps for gifted youth (I didn’t have this and I was so jealous that they did). I think it’s less about getting ahead in school than having the opportunity to socialize with a peer group that you have something in common with, which provides the basis for growing into your own person who is confident in herself and meeting more diverse groups of people in any setting.

          Second the recommendation to find a therapist for your kid to help with the transition and help with the trauma of whatever is going on currently.

  12. Is there a maps site where you can make a Google map and then draw on it/measure distance? I want to be able to draw distance circles (i.e., a circle indicating how far a mile is in every direction) as well as mark places of interest. We’re planning to move and I’m trying to be more strategic about making sure we’re close to the grocery store, transit, and other things we need often.

    1. the closest thing I know is making a list of ‘saved’ places with all you typical destinations. If you have a place selected, on the left hand side there is usually the profile (with the address, streetview photo etc). There you find a save button. You can then display the whole list with markers on the map, and get travel times between two of your places, or a place and another address.
      oooh, so I just discovered that another thing you can do is select a place, such as your favorite restaurant, so that it shows with the red marker. You can then right-click on the marker and select ‘measure distance’ and then click somewhere else. It will then show you the distance as the crow flies. You can drag it around and change length or direction. So you can use it as a one-mile radius, just without the circle.

    3. The MapMyRun app would be close. It won’t really allow you to create a “distance circle’ on the app, I don’t think, but you can create point-to-point routes on it. That is what it’s for.

    4. Yes, walkscore.com. Type in the address and scroll down to the “travel time map” — you can switch among walking, driving, or public transit distance, which is especially useful.

  13. We get really interesting questions here all the time and people offer advice and then we almost never find out what happened. (I mean there was one women who posted about her sister and she followed up – but that is pretty rare.)

    So if you posted a question or asked for input and it is not too personal/painful, could you respond and let us know how it turned out? Did you leave your husband? Go on that second date? Confront your in-laws? Tell your boss/former boss/husband about X?

      1. +1! Like the AAM “where are you now” year end updates are my favorites of the year.

    2. Yes, repost on Monday! I would love to know what came of some posters’ dilemmas.

    3. I’m the poster who moved from CA to Puyallup, WA. I first posted asking about areas to move to, then I posted and asked about Puyallup. My update is that we bought a beautiful house here and are very happy. It’s a nice town and moving has been great for us! I have a new job that is remote. I got great advice from the wise ladies on here!

  14. Does anyone follow the Doomsday Clock announcements? Yesterday they moved it to 100 seconds to midnight, the closest it’s ever been. I feel so empty and hopeless about it. How do you deal with this kind of catastrophic news?

    1. I didn’t know what it was until I Googled it. What’s the benefit of following it for you? I have no interest because I know we’re generally screwed (even though I do my best to act like a good planetary citizen). I am an if I die tomorrow nbd type person because death is inevitable so I’m probably not the right audience for it!

    2. Ultimately, I remind myself that it’s a made up thing that is based on truths but is not an ultimate truth in itself. Yeah, our species is really f’ing itself over in a lot of ways, but the one thing that is guaranteed to do nothing to improve that situation is me sitting here obsessing over it.

  15. Any ‘rettes with difficult family members in assisted living? My dad is in a unit where they never had him execute an admissions contract and now he wants out, like yesterday. Found him a new place, but typically the termination period from other units in his community is 60 days. If he didn’t sign any such contract is he month to month? The place is a filthy dump and I really feel like his safety has been compromised living there. I am a lawyer, but a patent lawyer… sooooo… My brother who is out of state keeps insisting I can handle everything and should just move him, but it would be nice to hear from anyone with similar experiences.

    2. Sorry, I meant to post that reply to the person who said she was pregnant, and obviously messed that up. Ha ha. For your question, I would check your state law on this ( the law of the state in which your father resides). If there is no lease or other contract in place, then the default is to state law. Typically, that would imply a month-to-month default situation. Make sure that he actually in fact did not sign a contract. I would check with management at the assisted living facility. Let us know what you find out. With no contract, you should be able to get him out quickly.

      1. Thank you! I figure I was overthinking it. Hubs & I nabbed an awesome studio today in a way better community & he will be moving within 2 weeks. I sent a termination email (will mail a hard copy) just saying he is month to month and here is the required notice. There have been enough hair-raising things happening (they borrowed his shower chair and didn‘t return it, tried to give him a shower without it, I went apeshit) that if they give me ANY issues, I am cascading it to their corporate overlords. Dad is such a drama llama, he wants to move tomorrow, but he seems to be happy with the outcome.

    3. If the place is awful, you have a good alternative, and your finances could handle it, move him now. At worst you pay for two months if he signed a contract. At best you pay nothing more. Most likely you pay to the end of the month and/or negotiate with management. But he’ll be in a safe and clean place in the meantime.

      1. Thank you! I think I worded my initial post badly, but your words are so helpful. I definitely want to get him out of there before anything bad happens. At the end of the day it is really only money. Dad keeps wigging out about how much he is paying and saying he is going to run out of money (but he is never quite sure how much he really is paying) and it‘s hard not to react emotionally to his panic.

        1. We are also in this situation with my in-laws. We have been very pleased with an Atria facility that basically has all the amenities of a big and modern student union building, although my in-laws never fail to find something to complain about. Do you hav POA? My husband does and it’s made things a lot easier. I feel for you.

          1. OMG housecounsel, we are moving dad to an atria facilty too! So happy for another vote of confidence in them… Current facility (rhymes w/ CrookFail) is hella depressing but the atria was like a cruise ship environment, tons of snacks, activities (dad loooves cruises). Yes, I have POA thank God, because little brother just likes to say, you’re an atty, you can handle it… AARGH…
            Gotta say, this board really comes through, thanks to all! Dad is a sweet, cuddly narcissist (seems like the overts mellow out with age and the coverts just get meaner and crazier) but the narc boards aren’t really helpful, no contact is not exactly an option here.

  16. Anyone had experience with Luonto furniture? I am looking at a sofa sleeper from them. We have a local retailer with a non-sleeper version of the sofa in stock. I really like the way it looks and it sits comfortably, just would love to hear from anyone with knowledge of how the brand holds up. Thanks!

    1. I can’t speak for that specific brand, but definitely sit on a sleeper version of whatever you’re thinking of buying. They feel/sit much differently.

  17. What are your rules of thumb in preparing for retirement?

    My parents always told me to save 50% of net income to be able to retire in 30 years, which was perfectly doable as an associate in biglaw but not so much in nonprofit in a big city — I now save 20% of net, or 40% of my post-rent post-tax pay.

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