Weekend Open Thread

373 Comments

1. Hi everyone,

   This is going to be a semi long threadjack.

   I don’t mean to sound whiney, but it’s one of those things that I don’t feel comfortable discussing/burdening with my friends, so I turn to my wise Corporetters!

   I live at home to save money (Just finished school). I plan on living at home for a couple of years to save for a downpayment, etc. While living at home has made what I’ll describe below worse, I also experienced the same frustration when I was far away in college.

   My parents, but definitely predominently my mother, I feel like, tend to put me down emotionally. They think I’m smart, talented, studious, etc.- all of those superficial what it takes to be a good lawyer things. But I get constant commentary about who I am as a person. To me, that’s 20x worse because it’s ME- who you are as a person is what people are ALL about.

   For example, when I couldn’t go to a cousin’s birthday at a bar (let me say that he’s 32- this is not some sort of 5th birthday cute party) last night because I had to study to make up for lost time (oh BarBri) my mother called me a “selfish b*itch” amongst other things. I really don’t want to get into details, but I was actually willing to go for a little while, but really it was my sister who threw a fit and made it such a huge ordeal I bowed out to study.

   Last week when we had a minor tift about something she told me that “wow, if this is how you argue you’ll be a terrible litigator.” and “you always interpret things wrong- you’re terrible at reading people” (which is NOT true- my friends always tell me I have good insight!). She tells me all the the time that I’m not a very caring person, and finds it “amusing” that people rely on me for advice for life problems.

   When I was invited to a wedding of a friend (the wedding was kinda lame, not gonna lie!) she suggested I just don’t go. When I said I simply cannot do that, I’m one of the few people she was close enough with that she wanted to invite, my mother was so shocked that I was actually that close with someone at law school- as in, how do I manage to have such close friends?

   Tangentally related are situations when I make a point about something and she’ll actually go “no, actually this is true: X” and literally quote in X exactly what I just said.

   I guess these are just a few examples of things that really bother me. Trust me, I could go on and on. Most of the time I shove them out of my head so they don’t affect me personally, but like last night, I ended up crying for a good chunk of the night alone because I was so upset. It doesn’t help that I’m super stressed about the Bar, but then to be told how awful I am when I feel like I’m trying my hardest just makes it impossible to concentrate.

   I am just at such a loss as to how to deal with this. I really do think I’m a mature and caring person (I have friends that live in far away parts from many years ago that i talk to all of the time and we share our secrets and concerns about life).

   Some people might tell me to confront her and tell her how it makes me feel. Trust me, that 150% won’t work. I’ve tried, she doesn’t care how I feel (it’s “wrong” most of the time according to her anyway), and I didn’t grow up in a family that seemed to care about how people feel. There’s simply no way of changing her, so I’m looking for coping mechanisms. It’s really frustrating to feel like I have to keep this all to myself- when people ask me how my day went, sometimes all i want to do is say “awful, I was told I’m an awful person and now all I do is try to compensate by being extra nice to my friends and I feel trapped. How was yours?” but obviously I cannot. It’s not fair she gets to do this to me while I have to sit and take it silently.

   And now it’s worse because I feel like it’s starting to creep into my life. I know today I’ll get some snappy comment about how I’m not making a big enough deal of fathers day. Next week is my birthday and I’d rather my birthday not even exist at this point because all of this emotional slamming makes me feel like I’ll be living alone and dying alone. I feel like I push people away, especially potential boyfriends, when they don’t make it REALLY clear they like ‘me’ because I don’t want to get close and get hurt.

   End of rant. Any help would be much appreciated.

   1. I lived at home during law school to save money and moved out after the bar. My friends would say, “Wow, you’re so lucky to save so much money, I wish I could stay at home.” My response was always “it’s financially free, and emotionally/mentally expensive.” DutchFan, life is not fair. In a perfect world, you would live at home to save money for 2 years, then suddenly have the down payment to buy a house. And in a perfect world, I could have done the same. But I, and it seems you, don’t have that perfect family.

      It’s time for you to map out a budget. Include in that budget the cost of therapy, because the longer you live at home with your mother’s cruel comments, the longer after you move out that you are going to need therapy. See if your work health insurance will cover it. Trust me. And then map out how much it would cost to live in a small, crappy (but safe) apartment.

      Your mother is not going to change. The only things that you can change are 1) how you react to her mean comments (therapy) and 2) your exposure to those comments (move out). Frankly, IMHO, it’s not worth living at home to save dollars at the cost of your emotional health and self esteem. I feel so much better now that I don’t live at home.

      Good luck to you.

      1. This. Sometimes, you need distance.

         Regarding therapy: one of the things a good therapist will do is help you continue to develop your sense of what is true in these interactions. You need to be confident in your interpretation of these situations with your mother and not let her criticism undermine your confidence in yourself and your decisions. Hopefully you move from “I really do think I’m a mature and caring person” to not questioning it at all.

   2. That’s why people leave home. Sorry, that sucks.

      Remember it’s not about you, it’s about them — their issues and beliefs. Believe that you’re good enough and try to mentally rise above.

   3. It sounds like you’ve been able to figure out that you are not the problem. So, my advice to you is to get out of that house ASAP! I had a friend in a similar situation with her over-critical, often passive aggressive, mother and it didn’t get better until she moved out. Once your job starts get a roommate to split costs with or move into a small studio. Saving up for a down payment is not worth your sanity! Additionally, your first year in your first legal job can be trying, and you don’t need extra stress from your living situation complicating things. Your home should be somewhere you can go to decompress and relax.

   4. I’m so so sorry that you’ve had to experience this for so long DutchFan. You may not get as many responses with this being the end of the weekend, so you might want to repost if you’d like more perspectives.

      It sounds to me like your mother is emotionally abusive. I’ve found the best solution for dealing with people like this is to cut them out of my life, or if they cannot be cut out, severely limit my contact with them. Saving for a downpayment is admirable, but it is not worth your mental and emotional health. So my first recommendation would be to start looking for a low cost housing option (maybe with roommates) after the bar exam is over (you do not want to move during the bar).

      Once you move out, limit your interactions with your parents as much as is humanly possible. When you do spend time with them, try to find allies who know and understand your situation to go with you, and serve as emotional and mental support. Finally, when you do have these limited interactions, don’t lie down and take their abuse willingly. If they make a personal or snide attack, you must respond to it or else it will continue and it will get worse.

      By respond, this doesn’t mean to start behaving they way they do by responding with a personal attack. Take the high road, but be firm and clear that what they are saying is rude, demeaning, and you won’t accept it. If the behavior continues, leave. This is the only way they will get the message that it is not acceptable to talk to you this way. Do not get into an argument with them over whether or not you are as awful as they might think, just say, “I’m done with this conversation, and if you persist I will leave.” And then leave if they persist.

      Here’s an example of how you might respond to your mother in the future:

      “You are a selfish bitch for not attending your cousin’s birthday.”
      “That is uncalled for. Don’t ever speak to me that way.”
      “Other crazy mccrazypants verbal attack!!”
      “I asked you to not speak to me that way, I’m now done with this conversation.”
      Get up, and LEAVE, and do not resume communication until you are certain the situation has been defused. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

      While you are living with your parents, it’s imperative that you have a place to go that’s serene and free of their emotional abuse. Whether that is a good friend or family member who will let you sleep over if need be, or whether it’s your local low priced hotel, having an oasis is key to get through the bar exam. Also, if you think you can do it with minimum drama and stress, moving out of the house sooner rather than later would be a great benefit.

      Again, I’m so sorry you have to deal with this, and at such a stressful time anyway. Don’t be ashamed to seek non-corporette professional help. I’ll look for some good links on dealing with emotional abuse and post those in a minute. <>

      1. Wow, you guys are amazing. I didn’t think I’d receive so many thoughtful replies.

         In particular, Amelia- thank you for telling me something to say back that isn’t just an angry reply. I sometimes get really angry (I will admit) when she says stuff like that. I don’t reply with offensive comments, but yesterday I was not calm and I said things such as “How on earth am I being selfish? What do you expect me to do in this situation?!” and other like-wise flabbergasted commentary. Honestly I was too tired from working to get mad so it just left me in an exhausted, sad state.

         Very few, many not anyone actually, people know that I deal with this stuff. I don’t want to burden my friends, and I don’t want to make them think I live in this weird household which could also make me weird, so I’ve kept it quiet over the years. I’m also pretty over-achieverish (not bragging, this is jsut what everyone tells me) so I think people see me as super successful and well-adjusted so they don’t really see how it’s a problem for me.

         I also think that people don’t really ever fully understand the nature of my complaints. If I do say something and they tend to think it’s exaggeration, which only makes me more frustrated. I texted one friend just to say what was said to me, and that I’m getting really sick of this and she hasn’t messaged me since then (she replied she was out and we could talk tomorrow). Obviously this isn’t her problem, but it’s just an indication of how people don’t take how upset this makes me feel seriously. It’s probably due to the fact that the next time I talk to someone I’d rather not relive the memory and I just brush it off like “yes, it was awful, but today’s a new day” so they don’t see it as a constant weight on my shoulders.

         The worst part is how it affects my productivity, which was at about a 10% level today. Yet somehow I’m keeping pace with Barbri. I’m impressed about that! :) Small victories, right??

      2. I second this approach. It’s always worked very well for me, because if you don’t add fuel to fire, they can’t keep going. Especially if you get up and leave. A very cold, calm tone is essential!

      3. What Amelia advises has worked for me. The response of staying calm, warning, then actually leaving worked so well it left my father in shock. He has never treated me quite so rudely since then. It does work.

         Great for your self-respect as well!

   5. Move out NOW, and enter therapy as soon as you have insurance to cover it (or right away if you have insurance now).

      I’m estranged from my mother, who was emotionally abusive (like yours is) and abusive in other ways too. Therapy helps, a lot, but the most important thing is distance. You do not deserve to be treated this way, and you do not need to sit in her house and allow her to treat you this way. You have the right to live your own life and be yourself. You don’t owe your mother anything – if she can’t treat you with respect, then you don’t need her in your life.

      1. I live at home to save money, and adore my parents. They’re cooler than me, we have a great time together, and I’m really cherishing this time with them – and it is still hard to be an adult at home! I cannot imagine doing this if I didn’t get on with them. A downpayment is nice, but houses will always still be there. Start looking at reasonable places to live, and make a plan to move after the exam.

      2. This. I have no doubt that your mother actually gets some of her power by having you under her roof. There is probably some kind of perverse justification going on in her mind, along the lines of – as long as I provide for her, I never have to question the kind of emotional abuse I’m heaping on her. It’s amazing what some people out there think they’re “owed” by their children for doing THEIR JOB (i.e., being supportive parents).

   6. If you are living with them to save money and don’t like them, you are a user. Move out, get a second job, and a roommate.

      1. Normally, I would let these comments go, but seeing as I’ve reached a point of extreme concern over my situation, I feel it’s necessary to address this given my situation.

         I am not using anyone. It is my parents who believe it is very important for me to live at home- at no point ever have I ever been told I should leave. In fact, I will most definitely be chatisted for moving out without owning since it is throwing away money on rent to do so, according to my mother, and I will most definitely be see as irresponsible and wasteful for doing so. It is expected of me to live at home unless I own a place.

         I find it hard to believe that I could get a second job considering I will be working as a lawyer in Biglaw come August. I worked throughout law school so it’s not a question of laziness.

         I never said I did not like my parents (I’m quickly realizing that really it is really my mother who is causing the problems, but I felt bad singling her out). I have always been a loving, caring, responsible, and hardworking child and was absolutely never a problem child or one to stay out late doing bad things or anything else.

         If you think that I’m somehow using them, and thus this negates any type of emotional stress that has put upon me, then that’s great. I fail to see the logic here. Truthfully, your comment is unproductive.

         1. I realize it’s Monday, so you might not see this DutchFan, but don’t let unsupportive people who don’t read your whole post get you down.
            I agree with what most of the *supportive* people have said already, so let me just add one thing: studying for the bar is emotionally hard. You’re trying to jam tons and tons of information in your head, you’re working around the clock (especially if you’re caught up with the BarBri schedule, great job with that!), and you’re completely focused on what you’ll do on just two (or 3 in CA) days. It’s really scary and the summer I did it I was completely and utterly miserable.
            It sounds like your mother is being horrible to you, but you should also acknowledge that you’re probably not in the best place to handle it now anyway.
            Try to take care of yourself and keep being proud of your work! Sticking to that BarBri schedule is tough!

            1. You are well over 18 years of age so there is no reason to live in this abusive environment except that you are getting something out of it: free rent. Move out.

   7. I agree with all the others who say to move out.

      Practically speaking, you can find a good roommate situation and continue to save a lot for your downpayment (good planning suits you, by the way).

      But your emotional health is an even more important reason to leave. My stepson (20) lives with his mother. From the stories my fiance and I hear from my stepson, his sister (who lives with us halftime and with her mom/brother halftime), his mother and his grandmother, his mom treats him the same way your mom treats you. This has been going on for years. He is very bright (700s and one 800 on the SAT, all sorts of math and science AP exams etc), but he is flunking out of community college. Why? Two parents, a stepmom (me), two therapists, the kid himself, his sister, his grandparents and his friends can’t make sense of it. Our collective best guess is that he is both infantalized and abused by his mother. Until he “finishes” with her — whatever that means for him — he will continue to flounder.

      Don’t let yourself go the way of my stepson. Get out.

      While I’m on a rant, here are some books I’ve read to help myself deal with his mother. They might help you:

      Christine Lawson, Understanding the Borderline Mother

      http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Borderline-Mother-Unpredictable-Relationship/dp/0765703319/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308592245&sr=1-1

      Randi Kreger, The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder

      http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Family-Borderline-Personality-Disorder/dp/1592853633/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308592283&sr=1-1

      Susan Forward, Emotional Blackmail

      http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Blackmail-People-Obligation-Manipulate/dp/0060928972/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308592335&sr=1-1

      Nina Brown, Children of the Self-Absorbed

      http://www.amazon.com/Children-Self-Absorbed-Grown-ups-Getting-Narcissistic/dp/1572245611/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308592370&sr=1-2#_

      BTW, one poster gave you some language to use. Here’s another one to use when someone is attacking you and you can’t get up the courage to be a big girl and say “Let’s talk when we’re calmer.” (Sometimes that’s too inflammatory, I know!) “I need to use the bathroom. I’ll be back.” (And then sit there for a while and let her calm down.)

      Also, I attended a AlAnon meeting. Hearing the first hand stories of family members of alcoholics talking about what they let those people do to them until they draw a line in the sand and defend it (and themselves) scared me. It made it a LOT easier for my fiance and I to draw a line between his former wife and us and defend it. Calmly. Without being nasty. But to protect ourselves. You can do the same.

      Also, if your emotional health is ruined, it will adversely affect your ability to support yourself financially and blossom professionally. So even if you discount the emotional cost of staying, think about the financial cost in lost productivity.

      Good luck.

   8. My two sympathetic cents:

      I was in a similar situation for a while, although I didn’t have the excuse of the bar. I found that it helped to spend time away from the house, simply because there was less opportunities for arguments to arise. Housesitting, staying with friends or other family, or even just becoming a regular at a coffee shop may help.

      I definitly second the leaving the argument suggestion. It took me a while to realize I wasn’t in high school anymore and could do this. This was a turning point in my mom’s and mine relationship, and I stopped feeling so resentful (which was not helping the situation).

      Now that I’m on my own (renting a room in a shared house), I have a much better relationship with my family.

      Also: Doctor Who! Yes! I saw the S6 finale yesterday and I may have squealed.

2. This is a bit of an indulgent complaint but it is causing some serious stress in my mariage. My husband’s family has a vacation house and several grown kids (three of whom have at least 2 kids each). They always want us to vacation with them, but if we do so, everything is on their schedule. Further, they insist that all their children and their kids vacation together. This has predictable disasterous results, as no house is big enough for 16 plus people. This is a vacation with no private time and a lot of overexcited kids (including my own) . Plus I have the typical amount of corporate vacation –i.e., not a lot, and work f/t . In an effort to compromise, we scheduled to be at their place an a different week this summer when not everyone else would be there but inlaws would be. Just found out my inlaws made everyone reschedule so that they would be there the same time as us. We live close to inlaws and see them (and some of the siblings) on a regular basis. My husband has already expressed to them in the relatively recent past that while we are happy to occassionally vacation with them, it is a bit overwhelming with the full crowd. I now feel that it will just not be possible to go on vacation with them after this year, as they clearly only want to do it on their terms. Am I being selfish?

   1. No, but can you send the kids and or hubby along without you for part of the time?

   2. No, not being selfish. If your kids want to go, send them along if someone will babysit them. Otherwise, tell your inlaws you’re terribly sorry but you can’t make it that week after all, and schedule an independent family vacation in another locale. Or split the difference – go to the family vacation house only for the weekend, and then take an independent family vacation later on. Your inlaws will take the hint.

3. How much white is too white to wear to a wedding? I have a white satin dress that is covered in a black print – probably about 30% is black, but it extends all over the dress. It’s a high-halter style, knee length, A-line dress, so it’s clearly not a wedding dress, but I don’t want to stick out in the crowd because it’s a white base. Thoughts?

   I don’t have a link to the dress, but these are similar in black-to-white ratio:

   (similar, but no border) http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=565267&CategoryID=5449&LinkType=#fn=sp%3D6%26spc%3D1095

   http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=554723&CategoryID=5449&LinkType=#fn=sp%3D12%26spc%3D1095

   1. I think that much pattern is fine to take it out of “white dress” category.

   2. I am not a fashionista, but I think that’s fine. With the style and the black, to does not read bridal at all to me.

   3. I think these are fine for a wedding. I’d just avoid solid white or ivory dresses.

   4. I’ll be interested to see what others have to say about this.

      I have a similar dress that I specifically don’t wear to weddings. Love the dress, and I know it would probably be fine, but so far I’ve erred on the side of caution.

   5. I think black and white print is fine for weddings; the idea is that you don’t want to look faux bridal and the print I think takes that out of the equation…

   6. I think that amount of patterned black on white looks fine. I would style it with non-white accessories, perhaps colorful shoes and a contrasting wrap, to keep it from looking very bridal.

   7. Thank you all! I feel much more confident with your endorsement.

      1. Fashion goddess Kate Middleton wore a B&W allover print to someone’s wedding recently so I assume that’s OK:)

4. I just started my first consulting job following undergrad and will be taking a plane to work each Monday morning. I’ve found so far that many of my skirts gain significant horizontal wrinkles while sitting in my plane seat for three hours. Does anyone have recommendations for fabrics or styles that will hold up better to my Monday morning commute?

   1. I would consider wearing yoga pants on the plane and then changing in to the skirt in the airport bathroom (unless you are traveling with senior people, in which case….not sure)

   2. You’ll probably get more (and better) replies if you repost this tomorrow morning, but here’s what I could think of having no experiencing traveling in work clothes: wear pants. It sounds like you may be like me in that I vastly prefer skirts over pants, but if it’s only one day a week, perhaps you could just wear pants on Mondays. And if you have time, you could always change into a skirt before heading to your work site.

      If you’re not traveling with others from your job, you could always wait to get dressed until you land. If you roll your skirts in your carry on, they shouldn’t need ironing and you could change in the airport restroom (if you won’t be stopping at your hotel first).

   3. Polyester is evil in many respects, but it is great for not wrinkling. I have two polyester suits from JC Penney that are my go-to travel suits. I can have them in a suitcase for two weeks and they shake out wrinkle-free. Not all poly suits look cheap and shiny; mine are pretty nice looking. They are JC Penney’s East 5th line.

   4. Ponte knit (and preferably w/ some elastane content) tends to wrinkle less.

   5. I usually wear a ponte knit dress or skirt on the plane. I find that a skirt wrinkles less than pants. I also try to wear a looser skirt/dress (not a pencil skirt), which also helps reduce wrinkles. I also have a pair of tweed pants that don’t wrinkle too badly. I would say thicker fabrics would generally do better if you want to wear pants. When I travel, I usually meet colleagues at the airport and go straight to the office/client site, so I never wear casual clothing. I do usually wear flats and change shoes at some point (when I arrive at the airport, in the cab, or at the office, depending on the situation). Good luck on the new job!

5. So, I’m going to be interviewing for a possible secondment to a client this coming week. My impression is that the interview is primarily to make sure I’m not an unbearable person – I’m not competing against anyone for the position, and the client liked the materials (my resume and deal list) that the relationship partner provided. The company is outside my area of specialization (which is a fairly niche industry), but needs general corporate help, and I do a lot of general corporate work.

   I know that this is a big opportunity, as well as a sign of the firm’s confidence in me. I should add that I’m well aware that this opportunity has arisen because the client is trying to hire an in-house attorney and hasn’t been able to find a candidate that they’re happy with, so there is some potential that this could grow into another sort of opportunity. Although I love my specialized practice area, firm life is killing me and I’d be overjoyed to have the chance to go in-house, even outside my specialty.

   So, for those of you who are in-house attorneys, what would you want to see in a candidate for this type of situation? What are your tips for make a slam-dunk good impression?

   1. I have a bit of experience interviewing for our in-house department, and what I look for…

      – good personality – are you friendly, normal? If I am going to work with you all day I want to have someone I get along with

      – more importantly – are you someone who can get along with the management team? Do you come across as knowledgable but not arrogant, and do you look for a solution rather than just saying “no, that is not allowed”?

      – what do you know about our business? have you looked at our annual rep0rts and do you understand them? what kind of projects would you want to tackle?

      I think it comes down to being genuinely enthusiastic – and it sounds like that won’t be a problem! Good luck and keep us updated!

6. Has anyone else had a not-fun experience with bloomingdales.com shipping? I just got two dresses I ordered in late May (they came in on my first day of vacation, instead of the scheduled three days before), and they were in a plastic bag (it looked like a garbage bad, and one of the dresses was on a hanger (which was broken because it was shipping in a plastic. bag.)

   I asked for someone there to please call me and explain what happened, because while I like Bloomingdale’s, I’d rather pay more for something online at Nordstrom or Saks than the same item at Bloomie’s- I don’t want to go through this drama and dissatisfaction again.

   On a happier note, are there any “Doctor Who” fans on Corporette? I’m just getting started the fourth season of the new series, and I’m LOVING everything about it.

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