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What is a good way to tell prospective employers you were fired from you last job? Should you ever use a boss who fired you as a reference? Reader S wonders…
I was recently fired from a very small law firm without any warning and without any real reason given. The owner of the firm has a history of firing an employee every six months to a year without explanation. I was told that my work product was good and he would be happy to give me a positive recommendation. I'm at a loss as to what to say when the topic of my last position comes up during interviews. I'm certain that prospective employers will ask why I left and I will have to admit that it was involuntary. Is there any way I can explain the situation without sounding like I'm complaining about my prior boss? Also, without understanding the reason for my termination, is it wise to take him up on the offer for a recommendation?
Wow, I'm so sorry, S — that really stinks. We've talked about what to tell interviewers when you've been laid off, but we haven't talked about being fired. In general I think it's important for an unemployed person to have a simple, practiced explanation — three sentences, max — for future interviews. So I think my advice here would be to go back to your former boss and ask the following questions:
a) “Without an explanation for my dismissal it's a bit hard for me to prepare for what to say to prospective employers, as well as for me to process how to do better in the future. Were there specific reasons that led to my dismissal, or things that I could have changed?”
Note that your boss may still hem and haw and be unable to say anything. In which case I would press onward with more questions —
- “Is this an economy-based dismissal, or driven by a business decision?” I am not an employment lawyer, and any advice readers may give in the comments is not legal advice — but perhaps one of our readers can give some guidance on the difference in benefits between being laid off versus being fired (this article, for example, suggests you can file for unemployment and get COBRA health insurance benefits if you are laid off, but not if you are fired). Still, I think most prospective employers are still sensitive to the economy, and will understand if you were let go because the firm was having money problems.
- “Was it a ‘fit' issue in terms of firm culture?” For a very small firm I could see this being the answer — and I think most prospective employers would understand as well.
b) “Thank you so much for your offer to give good recommendations for me and my work. May I ask — if you were asked anything about my performance, would any of the answers be “she was mediocre,” or outright negative?” If your boss says no, all the recommendations will be good, then I'd say use him or her as a reference. If anything is on the mediocre/negative list, though, delve further (or steer clear entirely) — you don't want to be damned by faint praise.
In general, try to focus on the positive in your interview — what you learned at your last job, what you bring to this job. Best of luck to you!
Readers, let's hear it — what do you think Reader S should do in this circumstance? In general, what do you think employees who've been fired should say? Have you ever interviewed someone (or been fired and hired yourself) who handled it well?
Lyssa
perhaps one of our readers can give some guidance on the difference in benefits between being laid off versus being fired (this article, for example, suggests you can file for unemployment and get COBRA health insurance benefits if you are laid off, but not if you are fired).
Broad generalization which varies by state, definitely not legal advice:
Most of the time, you would lose your right to post-employment benefits (I’m not sure about COBRA, but definitely for unemployment) if you voluntarily lose your job (quit) or are “terminated for cause.” Which means that if you seriously misbehave (steal, refuse to do what’s asked, no call/no show), you don’t get benefits, but you generally won’t lose them if you’re fired because you just weren’t that good at the job (that’s a gray area, of course) or weren’t a good fit.
Ellen
I think it depend’s on the STATE. As a litiegator, I know that when WE fired a paralegal last year, we were NOT obligated to pay a severence benefit, but we did ANYWAY, but NOT right away. The Manageing partner said it’s better to get rid of the person and get a RELEASE (which I drafted), rather then to risk a judgement in a lawsuit. He was RIGHT!
The paralegal said we did NOT apreciate her, but she was VERY lazy, and was busy on the INTERNET all day rather then looking thing’s up for us. She also did NOT like it that I was freindly with the manageing partner and acused me of doing things with him which was NOT true. FOOEY on her for even saying these thing’s! FOOEY!
So the manageing partner told her we would like her NOT to go away mad, so he GAVE her 2 week’s pay for each year she was here. Since she was here 2 year’s, we gave her 4 week’s pay. I think we also gave her COBRA benefit’s b/c we had to, and we had to give her some time to CONSIDER the release. So she left, but did NOT sign the release right away. She hired some slimey lawyer who came back and told us he was goeing to file a complaint with the EEOC unless we paid her 8 week’s salary plus COBRA. He called me b/c I was the one who drafted the release. So I told him he would HAVE to speak with the manageing partner b/c I did NOT even think she was worth the 4 week’s the manageing partner had me put in the release.
So the manageing partner says to the guy that the OFFER was on the tabel and that she could take it or leave it, but he was NOT goeing to give one cent more! He was VERY impresseive on the phone — I think that is why he is the manageing partner. So this slimey lawyer goes away and she did NOT sign the release. He sends a letter in to the EEOC, and a few month’s later, they said they would do NOTHING. By that time, he really had NO choice but to file a lawsuit.
As a litiegator, I started TO GEAR up and file an answer, but the manageing partner said send out the release first. So when we did send out just about the same RELEASE, we changed the 4 week’s pay to 3 week’s. The paralegal signed it RIGHT away and we saved a week’s pay! I did NOT get to beat her up in court, but we won, the manageing partner said. Yay!
Hillary
You’re a “litiegator?” Wow, I hope someone in your office proofs everything you write because there’s a big difference between a plural and a possessive. Sounds like this girl was better off without you and your “manageing” partner.
Sara
You guys, Ellen is a joke. FYI: ellenwatch.blogspot.com
Sarah
FOOEY on your spelling. Can’t believe you made it out of law school writing like that.
Jules
Lyssa is right about unemployment benefits, although things do vary somewhat by state. As an employment attorney, I sometimes negotiate for a termination to be called a lay-off or reduction in force so there will be no dispute with the state about the individual’s eligibility for unemployment.
COBRA benefits are available if you quit or are fired, unless you are fired for “gross misconduct” such as theft. (And, again, none of this is not legal advice . . .)
Anon
Also, IME, it really makes no difference what you call it or how you negotiate the separation from employment. In my state, the Division makes its own determination as to the proximate cause of the separation (and thus, the entitlement) independent from what the ER actually calls it. Also, this is not legal advice. If you want legal advice, hire an attorney. :)
Anon
UI entitlement varies by state. In my state, the standard is whether the EE was “at fault.” The at fault standard is different from “for cause.” In my state, you could get benefits if you were fired, so long as you were not at fault for getting fired.
SD
I’ll be really interested to read the comments to this post, as I was in a similar situation a few months ago. My employer generously gave me an additional month of “employed” status from the date they let me go (though unlike Reader S, I was told why I was being let go), including pay and benefits, so that I could find another job. I was lucky enough to find another position within that time frame, but I had agonized about what I would say in an interview if I hadn’t been so fortunate.
A.C.
I hired someone who was fired from a notoriously aggressive and disliked (though incredibly successful) law office in my city. Her explanation was that when the partner could not make payroll, she fired support staff. When she was more flush, she’d hire some of them back or just hire new staff. But it was always a very dramatic, YOU’RE FIRED! scenario, with lots of finger pointing and yelling and accusations of poor performance, despite everyone suspecting it was because of her cash woes.
After asking around I found a lot of people confirmed that this attorney was incredibly mercurial and known for appalling behavior in and outside the courtroom, along with shady financial dealings with vendors.
This doesn’t add anything productive to the question about interviews, but this post made me recall the situation. The fired employee that I later hired turned out to be one of the best employees I’ve ever known. Maybe sometimes “My boss was an ass.” is really the only answer.
Anonymous
Ooh, good question. I was haunted by a really terrible firing that happened before law school and had agonized whether it would come back to bite me in the ass when doing moral character things for the bar. (It didn’t; the person who fired me was diagnosed mentally ill and left a short time after I was fired so all that happened, I would guess, is that HR verified I had worked there in those dates. I’m not even sure if they kept a record of why I left.) To S, good luck.
If you’re worried about a lukewarm reference, you might want to try the Lifehacker tip and have a friend pretend to be a prospective employer and call and ask for a reference, see what happens.
Unrelated note: a huge thank you to the commenter that recommended Ready Player One. I got my geek on and finished it in a day and a half. What a fun book!
Anonymous
This happened to me. I just recently found a job, FWIW. I did collect unemployment for a little while. I was blindsided by the firing. My work product was good, my hours were steady and within the acceptable range, and I was friendly with people I worked with and for. I was also told by the managing partner (not the person that fired me) that I could use him as a reference.
I told the truth in interviews. I had a little bit of a story to go along with it (without getting into too many details, I was replaced within hours of leaving by someone that had better credentials than I and, based on her hometown, I believe had a personal connection to several people at the firm). I told everyone that I interviewed with that I was fired, but that it was a complete surprise. I told interviewers that I was pleased with my work and the direction of my career and that I had never heard any complaints about my work or hours. I also told the story of being replaced almost immediately. I think you have a similar type of “:0” story (person is known for getting rid of associates). Certainly there is a fine line between bad-mouthing someone or the firm and deflecting blame and telling the interviewer about your theory regarding what happened, but you can be gracious by saying something along the lines of “it was a shock, but I guess, in the end, I just wasn’t exactly what they were looking for.”
I did use the managing partner as a reference, but I also provided three solid other references. I had three interviews and did not get two of the jobs. I have no feedback as to whether the firing cost me the jobs, or if it just wasn’t a great fit or there were better candidates.
For me, telling the truth made me more confident, in a weird way. I just know I would have appeared shaky and strange trying to make up a story. And I couldn’t really think of a story that made sense. Saying that I left without another job lined up seemed odd and saying that there wasn’t enough work could have been easily verified by a quick telephone call. I think that handling it with grace and truthfulness made me seem more real and endearing (?).
If can try to come up with a list of things you learned at the job, successes you had, etc. it makes it easier to talk about and makes your story about being surprised and about the firm having a reputation for this sort of thing more credible.
Also, as an aside, I applied for about 75 jobs, most of them non-legal positions. I got exactly ZERO interviews for non-legal jobs. Part of me was so jaded by the experience that I wanted to get out of law altogether, but it just was not happening. And I have non-legal, professional job experience.
Lastly, I’m sorry this happened. It really sucks and can be a blow to your confidence. But, the legal world is tough and this will ultimately make you stronger. Its also a good opportunity to evaluate exactly what you want to be doing career-wise.
anon
Fascinating. Thanks so much for sharing this. It’s refreshing to know that sometimes just being honest and upfront about it is the best way, and that it can work in your favor.
Buffy
I would pose this question to askamanager.org. She has good insight into a hiring manager’s perspective on stuff like this.
Laura B
I was thinking the same thing. Such a weird place to be in that more advice will only help, I think.
observer
It’s apparent that you’re not an employment lawyer. Your advice is not all that great. All firms can do is verify dates of hire and salary. Your writing and this site would be better served if you steered clear of answering such legal questions and left it to a professional specializing in such matters.
really?
“It’s apparent that you’re not an employment lawyer.”
Did you get that from the overall post or the fact that Kat said she’s not an employment lawyer explicitly in the post?
Also, do you have any support for saying that law firms can only verify dates of hire and salary? I have heard of firms that will only verify that a former employee worked at the firm, but I did not think it’s the rule. And I wouldn’t count on a small firm or a lawyer that routinely fires associates for no reason to follow the rule, even if it was the rule.
Agreed
Kat’s guesses weren’t 100% right about everything (and she did disclaim them). You, observer — you are simply wrong. Hopefully nobody relies on you for advice.
Anonymous
This is not true. I know for a 100% fact that employers can and DO do more than verify employment dates. Some choose not to because there is a risk that if something bad is said, the former employee will sue for libel. However, truth is an absolute defense to libel, so if what the employer says is true, there is no actual risk. (There is a risk to simply being sued). There is nothing unlawful about telling a prospective employer the truth about a former employee and the circumstances of her departure.
tdeveil
Anon,
This may be true, but few organizations want to go through the messy publicspectacle of a libel suit, so it is in the business’s best intrest to stick just to the facts.
Blonde Lawyer
Ha. What one “should” do and what happens in practice are two very different things. I can say with absolute certainty that the lawyers in my area, particularly at small firms, talk very candidly about whether one should or shouldn’t be hired.
Remember a long time ago someone posted that she was considering having kids but worried about the impact on her job because she heard that her reference from her old job had said “oh and bonus about Jane, she doesn’t have kids and from what I hear, doesn’t want any.”
Illegal, yes. Does it happen, yes.
Also, there is nothing illegal about providing a true assessment of a former employee. Some employers limit what they will say to avoid liability.
For my current job, I needed to provide a reference that specifically would provide more than “worked here x date to x date and left voluntarily.” I had to supply someone who would discuss, in detail, the quality of my work product and oral advocacy skills.
employment lawyer
As an employment lawyer, this is not correct. A firm can say whatever it darn well pleases about someone’s job performance. Many *choose* to give out just dates of employment.
Diana Barry
I have been fired before. It was a stealth layoff in a big firm – not enough work. I had started looking before I was fired, and the place where I was also had a churn-and-burn track record with associates. You will probably find that people are familiar with your firm’s firing people often and for no reason, and that not much of an explanation is needed. In my case I just said that there was not enough work and that was all any interviewer needed to hear.
anon
EvilHRLady also has answered this question in the past, I believe.
TO Lawyer
Tangential TJ – what about leaving a job when it’s not a good fit? At interviews, would a potential interviewer raise their eyebrows at a candidate who generally had a good job but the fit of the firm just wasn’t right?
And is saying that it wasn’t a good fit at an interview sufficient?
Anonymous
I am the Reader A who commented just below. I am generally a little skeptical of someone saying it wasn’t a good fit, because that can mean so many things. I think in general its better to be more specific and either give a legitimate reason why you want to leave the firm (e.g. you want more substantive work) or a reason that was out of your control for why you were asked to leave (e.g. the economy, which everyone is especially sympathetic to now). If someone says that the firm wasn’t a good fit and leaves it at that I worry that they were either fired for perforance or personality reasons and/or that they don’t want to work hard. None of those things are things you want entering an interviewer’s mind. Being more specific and giving a “good” reason helps eliminate any possibility that it was a “bad” reason. Of course, sometimes you may want to leave for a reason you don’t want to say (e.g. terrible boss) but I think in that case its better to come up with specific, substantive job-related things that you’re looking to change and offer up those instead of just saying the vague “I’m looking for a better fit.”
Kanye East
Yes, but I’d frame it as “I didn’t see a long-term future for myself there” or “There wasn’t enough opportunity for advancement,” and then be prepared to talk about your career goals, rather than talking about fit.
Anonymous
I am the Reader A from the previous question (about being laid off). I didn’t end up getting that job but I did make the transition to BigLaw after several long, terrible months of unemployment. People are always amazed that I went from a recent grad at VerySmallLaw to LongTermUnemployment to partnership-track associate at AmLaw100 but it does happen. I may understand more than others in BigLaw how volatile small law firms are and how much more likely they are than bigger firms to fire people willy nilly. I know a number of small firms that make a habit of hiring lots of people and firing many of them within a year and then hiring more, so I would be particularly sympathetic to someone in your situation. Not everyone would, but there are a growing number of people who understand. I think Kat’s advice is very good. If there was some economic aspect to the layoff, I would play up that. That combined with a positive reference from the former boss shoud be enough to have this not hold you back with most employers, including most BigLaw firms. Even if the economy wasn’t the ONLY factor (and to be honest, I don’t think it was in my case either – I think fit was a factor too), its still fine to frame it as an economically-driven decision. Obviously don’t make something up, but if the firm was light on work, I would give that and only that as the reason for the separation and most people will understand.
Laid off anon
I’d be interested to hear your story. I posted mid-Feb about being laid off (was given 4 months notice). Your description of small firms sounds exactly like my old firm. I ended up getting a new job a few weeks later luckily!!
Anonymous
To TO Lawyer: If it were me I’d stay the heck away from a candidate who said that. Unless it’s a known issue with the firm, it makes the candidate sound flighty and indecisive.
To S: Unless you know otherwise, I’d chalk it up to economics and explain it that way. If it’s a tiny firm, they’re having trouble making payroll and the easiest way to do it is get rid of an associate. They obviously can’t ditch their own personal secretary/paralegal, so they put it on your head. Happened to me, with the commensurate screaming about how I wasn’t meeting their standard. Except I knew the economics and knew they were lying, and had planned for just this sort of thing. I told them at the time that if they were firing me it was going to go down on my terms. That they would not fight me on unemployment and that they would give me a glowing recommendation in writing. Honestly, they were so stunned that I’d make a stand, they meekly agreed. Yes it sucks, yes it hurts, but chalk it up as a learning experience and move on with your head held high.
Really?
Oh, Kat – in a internet world with Ask A Manager and Evil HR Lady, you link to an article titled “Don’t Get Fired or Quit, Get Laid Off Instead”? How, exactly, does this recently-fired but surely otherwise lovely and accomplished woman benefit from an article advising people to sabotage their careers so they can cash in on a layoff?
TCFKAG
Maybe I’m revealing some of my own confusion here, but how is being fired in these circumstances different from being laid off? I mean – she was fired without cause, is being given a good recommendation, and was generally told her work quality was good. Is it because she wasn’t told that it had something to do with the firm’s financials?
anon
Good point. It would be more interesting to hear advice about how to deal with the more difficult situation of being fired, and not getting a good reference, etc.
melissa
Hi there –
I’m sort of in a similar position in terms of interviewing for new jobs, however i wasn’t “fired” so much as given an ultimatum and left.
I was hired for a “bookkeeping” position, and instead my job revolved around simple office duties such a photocopying and being a personal assistant to the employer. When I asked why the hiring description did not match the actual duties I was told that if I didn’t like it, I could leave. In a moment of weakness, I agreed and left.
I’m now left with a gap in my employment history that I have to explain.
So I guess it’s a two part question – how do I relay this in interviews, and how do I protect myself from this happening in the future?
For reference, I’m pursuing a professional accounting designation and am hoping to gain employment that reflects where I’d like my career to be in a year.
HR Gen
As a HR Professional I would recommend that Reader S apply for unemployment benefits. It varies from state to state but she will likely be granted benefits. If she is not granted benefits immediately she can request a hearing and hearing officers almost always side with the employee.
She should also be receiving a cobra packet in the mail – typically 2-3 weeks after separation.
I would strongly recommend the Lifehacker tip mentioned above and have a friend pretend to be an employer call for a reference.
Ann
I used to work for a large law firm in San Francisco and was rather stunned by the poor spelling of some of the attorneys. I can’t believe how much this has increased, judging by Ellen’s comment. As a litigator, one would hope her legal documents display a more professional tone.
anon
Amen, sista.
Anonymous
You must be new. Ellen is the local troll. It’s like having a crazy relative live in your computer. Someone really should write a script that i.d.’s her everytime she posts. About once a week someone bitches about her. But she’s harmless really.
JessiJames
Ah, that explains it. I wondered if she was our pet lunatic or something.
And IDK if you need a script to ID her… the random CAPS all over THE PLACE and constant FOOEY!s are enough. :P
Jennifer
Fascinating. Thanks so much for sharing this
Jenn
Curious about other readers’ experiences with “up-or-out” policies at big firms. After many, many years of extremely positive reviews and being told that I was “on track” and was doing everything right toward making partner, at my yearly review when I was an 9th-year associate (and when I was 6 months pregnant) I was told out of the blue that they thought I had “no skills,” wouldn’t make partner, and needed to start looking for a new job. They said I had a year or so. It was pretty awful — especially with already being emotional due to my pregnancy. I took my leave and when I came back, they refused to give me any work. Finally, they got tired of me asking for work, and gave me a departure date. I ended up finding a (much better) job and left about a month before the departure date. I wasn’t asked to sign a release and didn’t attempt to negotiate severance (I just wanted out of there). I’m wondering what others have experienced with this situation – severance? just leaving and moving on?
Sad Anon
Ladies, any advice on what to say when you were fired because you did not pass the bar in California? There is a 50% passage rate in Ca. I missed it by 5 points. My previous employer is willing to give me a good recommendation. Thanks!
Marilyn
Technically, isn’t it illegal for previous employers to give a bad reference? Especially if it keeps you from getting future jobs?