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Coffee Break: White House | Black Market Elongated Bow Belt

Coffee Break |

White House | Black Market Elongated Bow BeltI’m normally not a fan of twee bows and the like, but this one looks kind of perfect — thin, simple, but feminine. I could see this being a great thing even to keep in your office to add shape to cardigans, dresses, and more. It’s $38 at White House | Black Market. White House | Black Market Elongated Bow Belt (L-2)

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Comments

  1. Nutella Rocks

    I have this belt and I love it. It looks great with sheath dresses and cardigans.

    Any advice/stories regarding interracial dating? He’s black, I’m white.

    • Hollis Doyle

      My husband is black and I’m white. It’s been more a problem in his social circle than mine. He’s a well-educated, employed, “good” guy, so the black community has a hard time when a man like that doesn’t choose to be with a black woman. He’s a “sell-out,” etc. in their eyes. Silly that it matters, in my opinion, but it is what it is.

      • National_Anthem

        I love the idea of this post coming from Hollis Doyle. I knew he had a secret life hidden there somewhere.

    • anon

      I am south asian and my husband is white. We got a lot of push back from my family. Also a fair amount from the community we lived in (weird looks, stare down, odd comments, etc.). Good luck. Communication is key.

      • Anon for now

        Not sure why some commenters are snarking on this question– it’s very valid. DH is not white, I am, and my experience has been similar to 3:20 anon’s, especially when traveling in the south or more rural areas. DH seems to notice much more than I do.

        • TOS

          It’s a variation of “there is no such thing as racism, it’s 2014 and look, President Obama!”

          People have biases, often based in ignorance or lack of experience. I watch History Detectives…and it’s full of what K-12 history & civics classes don’t have time to offer. So even if you got an “A”, and there is a law….it doesn’t change the feeling of minority that you feel when you:

          Travel to a foreign country that renders you a visual minority
          Go to a gay bar with friends and have a moment of difference if you are hetero
          Have lunch at the cafeteria of the local HBCU – which is full of people getting a college education

    • Anon in Boston

      I am the child of a interracial relationship. My father is black and my mother is white. They have been married for 40 years. My mother’s parents have not communicated with her since she began to date my father but she has maintained her relationships with her siblings, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc. Her family reunions are always awkward because her parents actively avoid being in close proximity to us.

      My father’s family was very accepting of my mother and their relationship. He is a well-educated, ambitious man and I know he has heard some negative comments from black women about him choosing a white woman to marry instead of a black one.

    • Blonde Lawyer

      I don’t have any personal experience but my neighbors growing up (Caucasian) adopted an African American girl. They faced some negative talk in the community about whether it was fair to the little girl to have no family that shared her race that could help her deal w/ race issues, etc. It was a very white town with no AA teachers even as mentors. The city next door, however, was extremely diverse and they could involve her in all kinds of multicultural programs. Sadly, the most common question the mom was asked by other moms was “what are you going to do with her hair?”

      • Hair's a big deal!

        My aunt adopted two mixed race daughters. As much as it’s a silly question, it was a big deal! She really didn’t know how to do their hair to look cute or even reasonable, they wanted to look cute and she wanted them to not be embarrassed or ashamed of their hair. This was pre- YouTube tutorial.

        Obviously, there are a lot of other issues, but you have to do a kids hair EVERY MORNING! And dealing with a daughter’s hair is probably an eternal motherly concern, even when you have the same hair (I know there were tears in my household over the issue!)

        • anne-on

          I had such issues with hair in my household and my mother and I are both white! I inherited my dad’s curly Jewish hair, and my mom has stick straight anglo hair. It never occurred to her that you shouldn’t brush the heck out of curly hair unless you wanted a cloud of frizz Then there was the fight about convincing her to let me see a hairdresser because her cutting it straight across was not an option. It took me a loooong time to figure out how to make my hair behave, and that was a lot of angst for teenage me.

          • Anon

            OMG – this is exactly me — thin curly hair that i had no idea what to do with and my mom literally uses only shampoo – no styling products or conditioner on her stick straight hair – still wear my hair back/in a bun all the time because never learned how to deal.

        • Wildkitten

          There were tears in my household and we all are white with differing levels of wavy/curly hair.

        • Alana

          The great thing is that with tightly coiled hair, you DON’T have to do it every day. However, it means putting the time in for a style like braids, twists or conrows.

    • Sparrow

      I am from India and my husband is white. Neither of our families had a problem with race. However, my parents did not like the fact that he didn’t go to college. I live in the midwest and have not experienced any weird looks, comments, etc.

    • Alana

      If you get serious about this man and have a daughter, ask for help regarding her hair. It is important to feel comfortable in environments in which you are a minority and it helps to admit that there could be many cultural things you are unaware of. Hair is a big deal in various Black communities, and to some, the sight of a mixed girl with unkempt hair, especially if she’s not at the young and rambunctious stage, suggests that her family is disconnected from any Black community and is too ignorant or prideful to ask for help. There’s also tons of youtube tutorials.

      unkempt = no discernible style

      • tesyaa

        I recently read a b00k called “Hair Story: Untangling the Roots of Black Hair in America” and I found it very interesting. Also newsworthy because of the military’s decision to ban (?) certain hairstyles favored by African-American soldiers.

      • Anon in Boston

        My grandmother taught my father how to do my hair. I never had elaborate hairstyles but he knew how to do a simple french braid or a ponytail.

      • Senior Attorney

        One of the most awesome parenting things I ever heard came from a grad school professor of mine, an African American woman of about my age. She said that she was raised to hate her hair, and that most of her peers also hated their hair. And she was determined that her daughter not grow up with that burden. So from the very day her baby girl was born, among the many loving things she whispered in the baby’s ear on a daily basis was “You have beautiful hair!” Apparently it worked because the daughter grew up free of the angst so many African American women have around their hair.

    • Curly Sue

      I’m white and my boyfriend is black. I’ll second the others who have noted that it seems to be more noticeable for their SOs than for them. My boyfriend is not particularly concerned with what others think, so it goes okay, but he has certainly heard the critique about successful black men choosing white women over black women. We try to just talk about things if/when they’re awkward, but it mostly hasn’t been a thing. We live in New England, for what its worth.

    • Ebro fin

      My husband is Chinese, I am white. The only issues have been that some older Chinese women seem to look at him with regret for marrying me, some older family members had anxiety about the potential children, and sometimes, Chinese people are genuinely disappointed when they meet me to find out that I am not Chinese as they really just were eager to speak with other Chinese people!

      I have been happily surprised that it is apparently not noticed, or noted, by so many people when not that long ago it was not legal everywhere.

  2. anonforthis

    Oooh, I like this.

    Can anyone who has turned down an ECV/external version procedure for their breach/transverse baby comment on why you declined? My baby only has a couple more days to turn before we have to start discussing what to do and I found an earlier thread about it where a number of people said they declined the procedure but no one really said why. I was just wondering because I’d like to think about what to ask my doctor later this week if we end up needing to discuss it.

    • mascot

      I didn’t go through this, but I would ask what is the success rate, what are the risks to mom and baby, am I a good candidate, if it goes awry does that mean emergency c-section, what kind of medication/procedure time is involved?

    • anne-on

      I turned it down. My baby wound up turning late, but then turned again into my hips and I had a C-section after 24-hours of labor after my water had broken. Apparently even if the procedure works there is a good chance the baby will turn again. That, plus the risks (and pain) of the procedure just didn’t seem worth it to me.
      YMMV, but I had my C-section with full anesthesia due to an inability to have a spinal, and I was still able to nurse my baby within an hour, and recovered very easily. The nursing quickly was the one thing that worried me about a c-section. They’re certainly something to be avoided if possible of course, but I wasn’t super hung up about having a natural birth and didn’t really feel like I ‘missed out’.

      • another anne

        are you me? this is so weird. we (apparently) even have the same name. seriously weird.

        I didnt turn in down becuase she flipped in time, but flipped again and got stuck in my hips. I had a c-section after 19 hours of labor (including 3 hours of active pushing).

    • Lyssa

      I declined it. I guess I had a few reasons, but they were mostly personal preference (as in, I wouldn’t think that someone who did do it chose poorly).

      * It seemed unlikely to work (the doctor said about 50% success rate, tends to be lower for first pregnancy since everything’s not pre-stretched), and I really didn’t like the idea of unpredictability – I sort of wanted to know what I was getting into, I guess. I also wasn’t clear (yes, I guess I could have asked – pregnancy brain, I suppose) on what would happen if it did work – the doc said that it might put me into labor, but I guess if it did not, I would have had to get all geared up for it and then go home with my right-sided inside baby and wait and wait some more. (BTW, mascot asked what would happen if it didn’t work – I was told that they would be ready to do a c-section right then, so I would basically be getting ready for either/both.)

      * The idea of having a C-section sort of appealed to me from the start – just scheduling it and knowing when it was going to happen and that sort of thing. And it was really good – easy, pleasant, no real pain, was able to mentally prepare, and to have my (out of state) mom and retail-working husband ready and there, etc. I realize that a lot of people think that those are terrible reasons to get a c, but I don’t really care – I think that c’s are great and that there’s nothing magical about natural birth. When I do it again, I’ll almost certainly just schedule one from the start rather than considering a VBAC.

      * I didn’t much care for the idea of someone pushing on my baby (or me). I realize that they know what they’re doing, but I was feeling pretty protective of him, and it just seemed odd and unpleasant.

      The doc said that about 50% of moms wind up choosing not to do it, often for these reasons, and that he completely understood either way. And I think that that is what it comes down to – what sounds better to you? In the long run, it really doesn’t matter – the point is, baby. Whether baby comes from one hole or the other doesn’t matter a bit.

      Good luck with it all!

    • Anon

      Have you already tried all of the other alternative/natural suggestions for turning a baby? Spinningbabies dot com.

      • Lyssa

        Just as a warning, I had read that the spinning babies stuff has not been tested/researched and that no one is really sure whether or not it is safe or effective. I’m not sure how it could be unsafe, really, since its just exercises, and I’m only saying this to say do some research on it, not trying to say don’t do it (because I have no idea and just read it somewhere), but it’s just something to keep in mind.

    • associate

      Not what you asked, but I had an unsuccesful ECV. It turns out that the cord was wrapped twice around the baby’s neck, and I had low fluid, so they were able to turn him about 45 degrees, but not any further. It was extremely uncomfortable and painful; you don’t get any pain meds, only a muscle relaxant. You can imagine what it would be like with two people pushing on your stomach and your baby using pretty strong force – I had my eyes closed to try to get through it and my husband said their muscles were shaking. But others have been successful. After having had a C-section for that second baby after a regular delivery for the first, I think I would still try an ECV again (hypothetically, since I’d probably have a C next time anyway), as awful as the experience was. The recovery for a C was just so much worse for me than a regular delivery. Good luck, whatever you decide.

      • MorganMarie

        Like Associate, I had an unsuccessful ECV (baby simply wouldn’t turn more than 45 degrees and would go back to her original position as soon as the doctors stopped pushing). Unlike Associate, I would NOT do it again for a bunch of reasons, but mainly the following:

        1. After every attempt, my baby’s heart rate would drop. They told us to expect this, but it was still really scary. We ended up in the hospital for almost 14 hours (we should have been in and out in about 4) because after they were done with the procedure, my baby’s heart rate was too slow and she wasn’t moving very much. So, we spent a full 8 hours after the procedure was over in the hospital being told that if my baby’s stats didn’t get better, we were going to have an emergency C-section that night. Honestly, it was just scary and, especially since the procedure was unsuccessful, not worth it to me. We spent those 8 hours thinking that if our baby was born at 37 weeks because she was in distress, it was completely our fault. I don’t want to say that my experience is the norm, but it is certainly not uncommon for babies to react poorly to the procedure.
        2. I wasn’t opposed to having a C-section (at full-term, not as a result of the procedure). If I had been 100% committed to a V birth, I would probably feel differently, but since I was fine with having a C-section all along, the stress of the procedure was so not worth it.
        3. Like others have said, my doctor told me the procedure was succesful about 50% of the time. However, two different nurses told me that, in their experience, that number is way high and they very rarely see successful procedures.

        Note that you should ask your doctor about the specifics of the procedure. Associate said that she only got a muscle relaxer, but my hospital actually does an epidural, so I had very little pain. Also, C-section recovery varies greatly–I had no issues at all (bfed my baby within an hour of birth, etc.). Plus, C-section babies often come out looking way cuter than normal labor babies:)

    • S-Anon

      Whatever you decide, advocate for yourself!

      My little guy was breach at 36 or so weeks. Doc explained ECV procedure and the odds of success, etc., and said if I was unsure (I was) to do some research on my own, and let them know the following Monday morning. I did, and decided against for lots of the reason mentioned here (not great odds, especially for first babies, painful procedure, risk of going into labor early, not adamantly against C-sections, etc.). A different doc (my OB practice has you see everyone so, in theory, you will have met the person on call when baby arrives) pretty much told me I made the wrong choice, that I should at least try the ECV. She made me feel like I was totally selfish not to at least try, etc.

      I caved and scheduled the procedure for 2 days later. I was all hooked up to the monitors and about to get the muscle relaxant when they did a final sonogram and found he’d flipped sometime in the past 48 hours. Relieved, we went home. The rest of my pregnancy was pretty uneventful, and baby never flipped back. Long story short (too late, sorry), I had a normal delivery several weeks later. And the doc that I thought was a bully ended up actually being wonderful when she saw me for a post-delivery checkup the day after baby was born.

      In the end, I’m glad I didn’t have to have a C-section but, if put in the same position again, I’d have the same concerns about the ECV and would stick to my guns if I didn’t want to go through it.

      Anyway, not sure if this was at all helpful but good luck to you and listen to your gut (no pun intended).

  3. Nutella Rocks

    Not really. I was more curious if you had any stories. For example, what would you say if someone chastised you for stealing someone they saw as a future partner of the same race?

    I’m good with it so that’s all that really matters.

    • Anon

      Has this already happened? Or are you just worried about it happening? And have you recently watched Save the Last Dance?

    • Anon

      Ignore the haters – you do you. In my experience, in past inter-racial or inter-religious group relationships, sometimes it becomes a bigger problems because there are too many issues or differences to work through. In other instances, the only real problem is what other people say and in those instances, i would ignore that. It really depends on your relationship.

    • Wildkitten

      True story: I’m white and had a black boyfriend for a while and a few people said some ignorant stuff but I didn’t care. The end.

    • anon

      get a good foundation of communication. talk about this, and get on the same page– he may have feelings about this too, and guilt or annoyance.

      all in all, ignore the haters, but that only works if both of you are on the same page and not internalizing some of that stuff.

  4. Hollis Doyle

    Any suggestions on where to find casual tunics for tall ladies? I’m 6′ tall and just looking for tunics to throw on over leggings on the weekend to go to the grocery store, park with my toddler, etc. Basically a long t-shirt that will cover my booty.

    • anne-on

      Boden seems to specialize in tunics. They’re running a 20% off sale starting this Sunday if you can find a mailer with a code.

    • rosie

      I like the Lole brand (I buy them from Zappos). I am 5’8” with a long torso.

    • anonypotamus

      I don’t know if this is too late, but check out uniqlo – I just ordered a tank tunic from there and it is long. I am 5’9″ and could almost wear on as a (short) dress. They have plain ones mostly, but also some cute prints.

  6. Anonymous

    Reposting from this AM’s thread and broadening the information a bit — thanks to all who weighed in.

    I’m in grad school and have gone on 4 dates with a guy I like (including spending the night on the 4th date, but no garden party — at my refusal, not his). He’s initiated the dates and we’re seeing each other tomorrow (and most likely this weekend). I have a couple of weeks left in the semester and we’ll be on opposite ends of the country this summer, though back in the fall. My time right now is *really* limited since obviously, the end of the year comes with finals, papers, end-of-year drinks and events, extracurricular celebrations, etc. Most nights until I leave, I have probably 3-4 possible events to go to per night and am already having to say no to people I’d love to see just based on timing.

    I’m trying to weigh how much to prioritize exploring a relationship with this guy (who I do like, a lot, which is rare for me) should take precedence over other end-of-year activities, or whether it even makes sense to keep seeing him at all when it’s unlikely we will see each other at all for 3 months over the summer. I feel like I’m just setting myself up to leave school with some weird and unfinished loose end.

    I can bring him to some activities so it’s not necessarily a 1 to 1 tradeoff (though in my circle, bringing casual dates to group friend activities is rare) but I also feel like if I am going to spend time with him, I’d like to spend some more one on one time so that I can gauge whether this has the potential to be serious. I’m basically on the one hand thinking – if I like him, we can figure the summer out (I think visiting would be a bit much after probably max 10 dates…) , keep in touch, see if something resumes in the fall if we’re both still single, etc, versus on the other hand, if I don’t like him/see a future, I’ve wasted time and skipped some great stuff to hang out with this dude, and I’ve potentially annoyed some friends by ditching them for a dude.

    I suppose this is mostly just a vent on the terrible timing of all this. Boo! If only this had happened in October.

    • Maddie Ross

      No offense, and I realize this feels like a big deal to you at this point in time, but honey, that’s life. Balancing people and events. Balancing girlfriends and boyfriends. And no one on the internet can tell you which is the better option. Or predict for you that he’s the one. I generally try to not be so snarky, but I think with this one, just go with your gut.

    • Lyssa

      For whatever it might be worth, I got to talking to a nice and cute fellow at a college party at almost the end of the semester. Our first date took place on the last day of classes. We went on two more dates during finals. I thought, this guy is really great; too bad I’ll probably never see him after I go home for the summer. I gave him my home contact information (this was pre-cell phones), but figured he probably wouldn’t keep up with calling. He did. Our 13th wedding anniversary is next month.

      (as an aside, we were a lot closer, an easy day trip away, and did see each other a few times over the summer, but on the whole, summer just isn’t that long)

    • Anon

      Visiting someone after 10 dates isn’t too much if you actually like each other. If you want to do it, do it.

      • Cat

        +1 – I met my husband when we were BOTH out of town on vacation, so our entire “getting to know you” stage was long distance + visits every 2 or 3 weeks (starting after about 2 months of long distance over AIM chats (oh, dating myself) and phone calls). If you keep up contact, perhaps a 4th of July visit would be good timing.

    • LT IT

      I didn’t see all the comments this AM so sorry if I’m repeating but please try not to worry about it so much and just have a good time. Enjoy your time getting to know this guy, enjoy your time with your friends.

      I have been happily married for 10 years but I remember all too well the agony of bad timing and the if only’s of dating. As people say, things happen for a reason; when one door closes, another one opens, and it’s really true. When I met my now DH, we were both with other people. There was a spark but it was just impossible. I got so obsessed about it my best friend had to finally tell me “OK you really need to just let this go.” He and I went our separate ways and didn’t even see each other for about 6 mos. We both dated other people for awhile and then one day he called me out of the blue and we have been pretty much inseparable since then.

    • Hollis

      I started chatting on the phone (not even a real date) with a cute guy in an east coast town a week before my graduation from law school and move to the west coast. We chatted long distance every few days and he decided to fly out and visit me over July 4th weekend. Another visit followed in August. A year of long distance dating (he had to finish grad school), and we were engaged. We’ve been married for 9 years, with 3 wonderful kids.

  8. HS grad gift help

    My cousin, who’s enough years younger than me that she’s more like a niece, is graduating from high school. Anyone have some good gift ideas? I searched prior threads because I remember seeing this before, but didn’t find much. A default or an add-on gift would be a Starbucks card. Unfortunately her college’s bookstore online doesn’t have a great selection of clothes (I wanted to get her a nice hoodie). She already has monogrammed towels. She’s a good student, an athlete (in HS), into fashion, and a good girl. She’ll be going to a large state university. Thanks in advance.

    • NOLA

      My go-to gift for high school is a gift card for Target because they can get groceries, stuff for their room, or clothing. If the bookstore doesn’t have a great selection online, call them and see if you can do an order over the phone.

      • anonness

        +1 for Target, especially if she’s moving into the dorms or a new apartment.

        Target was literally a godsend when I moved into the dorms … even with a checklist of items, you still end up needing to go out and grab something.

    • In the Pink

      monogrammed swiss army knife (with a flashlight in it?)

      monogrammed lists/note pads … stationery studio or american stationery dot com (for both)

      maps/books/tickets, coupons for fun things in the new town

      fab noise blocking headphones

      cards for amazon/kindle or app store

      car magnet and sweatshirts for the new University…ready to wear when she lands on campus…or fashion items/accessories in the University’s colors?

    • CKB

      My go to gift is a college cooking or how to cook or cooking for one type of a cookbook, sometimes with a gift card as an add on. It’s been well received. However, nobody I’ve given this to was living in a dorm, so it may not work for your cousin, depending on her plans.

    • Sydney Bristow

      My dad put together a toolbox for me when I left to live in the dorms. It was incredibly useful for years. Mine was full of my dad’s extra tools but I’ve seen cute small boxes around during back to school time. Target is probably a good starting place to look.

      I enthusiastically second the Target gift card suggestions too.

      • Former Partner, Now In-House

        When I got divorced, a friend gave me a blue “Do It Herself” toolkit. I use it all the time and have for years. Highly recommend it or any toolbox outfitted with the basics.

        Other thought: magazine subscriptions in a range of life skill areas (one about personal finance (“Smart Money” or equivalent), one about healthy cooking (“Clean Eating” or equivalent), one about home care (“Real Simple” or equivalent). Yes, you can take classes or read about this stuff online. But I think that having these easy to read and toss magazines around the house, refreshed every month, and easy to read in the bathroom or while eating dinner or watching TV leads to more info being absorbed over the course of a year with less effort.

      • M

        My go to gift for high school grads is a small toolbox/toolset. I received one for my own graduation, used it the first day I moved into the dorms, and ten years later it’s still useful.

    • Blue Anne

      I’d suggest a really nice gift that fits in with one of her hobbies. When you’re in high school and college, it can be hard to afford that kind of thing, and I at least ended up just writing it off as something I couldn’t have. Which is cruddy. But when I received that kind of thing as gifts, it was guilt-free and SO appreciated.

      As an example – two gifts that I received on my graduation from high school were an iPod shuffle and a really good needle-roll for knitting needles. I would never have splurged on the shuffle myself, but I ran that thing into the ground. And seven years later the needle roll is still full to bursting with knitting needles (now slightly nicer ones than the cheap plastic and metal I had to buy when I was in high school).

    • Anonymous

      When i graduated high school the best gift I received was cute overnight bag with wheels. I got more use out of that – going home for the holidays, weekend trips with friends, etc. – than anything else. Almost 10 years later, I am reluctant to throw it out and get a new one!

  9. XL Workout Tops

    Does anyone have a recommendation for some XL workout tops that will stay PUT when I’m exercising. A lot of the moves I’m doing on the floor (mountain climbers, burpees, abs, etc) my looser shirts come up and I’d rather not flash everyone at the gym my flab.

  10. SAlit-a-gator

    I may be dating myself as a looooong time reader, but I swear this belt was a feature on this website a couple of years ago. Either that or I’ve seen this exact belt somewhere. Anybody else get the deja vu?

  11. Recruiters

    I get calls on my office phone regularly from recruiters and now I’m actually interested in speaking with one. I’ve googled their various companies but honestly all these companies have similar mediocre reviews. Is returning one of these calls like answering spam email or has anyone successfully worked with one who does these cold calls successfully?

    • Woods-comma-Elle

      It depends on your market, but here in London, this is how you find recruiters/they find you.

      A good recruiter will agree to meet with you, discuss your needs/experience etc and will only send you stuff that matches your requirements with no obligation. You shouldn’t have to send them your CV right off the bat, they should already have read your profile and know stuff about you, instead of calling you up about a job for a family lawyer in Des Moines when you’re a tax lawyer in Boston. Agreeing to meet for a coffee should be totally acceptable without you having to give them your e-mail address etc just to gauge if you could have a good relationship with them.

      I am not looking to move, but I have met a few recruiters who are well known in the market and seem to know their stuff, and those were all based on cold calls. Also, when I first qualified, I thought about changing firms and one of the recruiters I met then was great and I would still go to her if I was thinking about moving even though I never went anywhere at the time, as she has made a point of keeping a relationship which is what it’s all about really. A good recruiter gets to know you and finds you a good position on that basis.

      • MJ

        I cosign everything that Elle said. I get calls ALL THE TIME. I even get LinkedIn requests which say, “I am so and so recruiter. Please connect with me.” No. No you do not get to access my rolodex and harass my friends because you found me on LinkedIn.

        If you have a really good friend at work, ask if he or she knows of anyone that’s lateralled/been hunted and whether they used anyone. Of course, ask on behalf of “a friend” who’s moving to X city. Of course!

        I would also add that really good recruiters understand a good candidate when they see her. So they won’t call you just because they got a new req in. They will call you when they have a req in that fits your needs…they work for you as much as they work for their retained (corporate/firm) client. Bad recruiters call you advertising whatever is on their plate.

        I have also found that really good recruiters stay in good touch. Bad ones, well, you can’t even remember their names, because they’ll hire anyone and the churn is visible.

        Good luck!

    • Anonymous

      I second Elle’s comment that it varies considerably by market. My large city is saturated with recruiters, and the good ones no longer need to cold call to get candidates–they get their business from referrals. If your city is like that, reach out to people you know who successfully lateraled and see if you can get some names. If you know anyone who works in recruiting, that’s a fantastic way to get information–they will have an opinion on which recruiters are dishonest and which recruiters send candidates who are a poor fit (either because of laziness in attempting to find good matches, or out of an intentional desire to make bad placements so the candidate needs them again in a year).

      Make sure that any recruiter you decide to go with follows a policy of getting your approval before submitting you to a job. The ones who don’t want to bother with this are likely blasting your resume to every job posting on their system. I know people who have worked with recruiters who resume-bombed nearly every firm in the city, precluding the candidate from applying on his or her own after getting information that the firm prefers to not work with recruiters. Also, if the recruiter ends up being awful, it can be really frustrating not getting responses to “I saw this great listing–did you submit me here?” to know whether you should submit yourself because the recruiter is apparently not going to get around to it.

  13. anon

    Sanity check — quick feedback?

    I’m looking for a sanity check on a situation. I’m going to try to keep it short. I’m an associate at a law firm. I’ve had two troubling interactions with a counsel on a case now. In both instances, he gave me what he would call “constructive criticism” but what instead felt like a very demeaning, personal attack designed to make me feel bad about myself, involving, among other things, telling me that I’m in the wrong business. These have been prompted by very minor issues in the case. When I raised this with a partner I trust, he kept saying that the counsel has a “frat boy” relationship with others that I am probably not responding well to and that we just don’t “click.”

    The interactions with the counsel were bad enough, but I feel very disheartened by the partner’s reaction to it. It feels even more demeaning to hear that the problem is that I’m not “tough enough,” instead of him acknowledging what is (objectively) poor behavior on the counsel’s part. I think the counsel’s behavior tends toward the emotionally abusive. I work with some extremely demanding partners who don’t mince words when they feel an argument is wrong or that something should be done differently, and I handle that fine. These interactions were different. What are others’ reactions to the feedback I got from the partner? The “frat boy” thing really rubbed me the wrong way.

    • Anonymous

      When you refer to “counsel,” is this opposing counsel, or someone within your firm? I think it makes a difference.

    • anon atty

      well, the partner is probably right to some extent at least. There are attorneys like that at most firms. Their behavior isnt necessarily how most of us would handle things, from your description, there doesnt seem to be anything technically wrong with it (i.e., legally wrong). Im not sure what you mean by emotionally abusive, but I kinda doubt that is really the case. And in some ways, it sounds like you are not “tough enough,” meaning that you have to learn not to let cr@p like that bother you. That doesnt mean you have to condone the behavior if it really is objectively wrong, but what do you gain by letting it bother you?

    • Maddie Ross

      Is this a co-worker, or opposing counsel? How you respond and handle this depends on that.

    • Silver

      Part of fitting in as an associate is learning how to play the politics of the office and while I do not doubt that the counsel may have given you poor “criticism” and/or acted in a demeaning way, and you are entitled to feel bothered, I think the issue is how to deal with it in way that works for you and your career path. Unfortunately, the partner mentor is in a tough spot when you go to him about issues with another attorney (esp someone who is senior to you). If you go to the partner mentor looking for validation, I don’t think he can reasonably give it to you because in a lot of ways, they are on the same side and the partner mentor knows that the counsel is valuable to the firm and isn’t going to do anything to upset that relationship. If anyone is likely to change, it has to be the associate. It is important for you to either learn how to work with the counsel or learn how to avoid working with him. It’s possible that your working styles don’t fit and it’s totally possible that the counsel is just not a good boss. You may get better (and more honest) advice about the counsel from other associates. You also want to be careful about your mentor getting the impression that you can’t work with everybody (even if they rightfully stink as a co-worker).

      • Silver

        Oh but I do think that you should push back if the counsel (who I assume to be your co-worker) is out of line, but do it in a way that both makes your point but also gives the guy an exit.

    • Killer Kitten Heels

      … and this is why I’m plotting my way out of private practice as we speak.

      The “frat boy”/”toughen up, cupcake” mentality runs rampant, and the women on the receiving end of it sit back and take it because that’s “just how it is,” and because you earn super-special-cool-chick gold stars for “handling it.” Hang on for as long as you need to, and start thinking about where you want to be in five years, and how to get there, and start making moves in that direction. In the meantime, try to find like-minded folks to befriend – you’re not the only one at your firm having problems with this d*bag, I promise you – and consider getting involved in a pro bono or other volunteer opportunity or community organization where you’ll actually be treated like a human being for a few hours a week.

    • law

      I disagree with the other posters who say this is okay and get used to it because it is part of the job. While it may be part of the job, I don’t think its okay. It is “counsel” and not your immediate superior giving you a personal evaluation. Sounds pretty insulting that he is saying those things. Yes, he is free to say whatever he wants, but seriously!?!

      I think the sad truth is for purposes of keeping the peace, you should let it go and make a personal goal to prove this jerk wrong. He probably has some weird sexist self-esteem issues.

      If your firm has a good history of handling discrimination/HR issues, then maybe you could leave a complaint. If someone said this to me at my firm, it would not fly. I feel lucky about that!

      • anon atty

        I assume by “counsel” she meant “of counsel” or something similar, so yes, he is superior. And if she is working for him on a case such that he is providing her feedback, then he is even her immediate superior.

        There is nothing discriminatory about what she described. at all. And I really dont think this is about women sitting back and taking it. some people — men and women — have a bad bedside manner, and many are not good managers, particularly lawyers. But that does not equal bad treatment or discriminatory treatment (it can, of course, but it doesnt have to).

        By saying “toughen up,” the point is that as an attorney, you deal with tough situations all the time. indeed, dealing with tough situations is your job. clients are harsh, judges are harsh, and other attorneys — on both sides of the table — are harsh.

    • Gdzilla

      GIRL, RAWR BACK AT THAT FOOL. SHUT DOWN EACH OF HIS COMMENTS. LET HIM FEEL WAY TOO UNCOMFORTABLE TO SAY THAT GARBAGE TO YOU, YOU FEEL ME?

      • Wildkitten

        Agreed. You’re going to encounter this again in the future and so you’re going to need to “toughen up”, not to put up with it, but to be able to shut it down yourself.

      • OP

        Thanks for all the comments everyone. I did try to stand up for myself, which opened the door to more abuse, but I’m glad I did it. This person is a coworker.

        To respond generally to some of the comments, I recognize I can’t change this person’s behavior. I think that’s why I was more upset by the reaction I got from the partner. I was looking at least for some acknowledgment that the behavior (which was objectively ridiculous) isn’t OK. Instead, I felt like I was being blamed because I’m not tough enough. But should that always be the answer — “toughen up” — if a superior is treating someone poorly? In any event, I would say I’m “tough enough” — tough enough to realize this person is a jerk without internalizing the dispute and just feeling bad about myself, which was apparently the intended effect.

        • TOS

          You’ve let him know where the line is. Flip it back to him and ask him which seasoned professionals he admires or considers to be a shining example of the qualities he is describing. What did they do? What caught his attention? Why was it effective? What did he learn?

          Make him think about other people, and professionalism

          If he can’t do that much, well, good luck.

    • k-padi

      No advice. But you have my sympathies. These people make life miserable for everyone. Try to get through this project and then avoid working with him in the future.

      I don’t care what others say: this frat boy behavior is not appropriate in any professional office. Sadly, most lawyers have never received any formal training in management techniques and do not give a d@mn about employee retention.

  14. Wildkitten

    Reposting – does anyone know if I have to wear a suit to the DC Bar new members reception?

    • a passion for fashion

      why wouldnt you just wear a suit? There may not technically be a dress code (though check the invite/website, as it might say business or business formal), but generally people wear suits to bar events.

      • Wildkitten

        Folks at my work wear jeans on Fridays, so I’ll have to wear a suit at work all day to have a suit on for the after work event. I guess I will wear a suit to work on Friday!

        • a passion for fashion

          we have jeans on friday too. but there are always people wearing suits becuase they have court, or a client meeting, or something after work.

  15. anon

    a colleague invited me to a charity lunch. I accepted and sat at her firm’s table. I donated to support the cause because it’s something that I believe in. Should I shoot the colleague an email thanking her for inviting me or a thank you note? Is this too much/over the top?

    I wouldn’t have been able to go otherwise, and it was nice of her to offer.

    • EC MD

      I agree with Wildkitten. Also, if you really wanted points, tell the colleague how pleased you were to be invited to a charity lunch you believed in, and to let you know if there are other opportunities to help such a good cause. Growing relationships outside of the context of work is the most successful networking strategy, in my opinion.

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