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Updated: Jun 22, 2021 298 Comments · by

Tuesday’s Workwear Report: Wool Sheath Dress

The Personal Shopper (TPS) | ·

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Over the last year, my closet has gone through multiple rounds of purging and reorganizing. In doing so, I realized that some of my go-to pieces (black pencil skirt, black sheath dress, black pants — are we noticing a trend here?) were looking a little worse for wear.

I’ve been keeping an eye out for basics to replace my tried-and-trues, and this wool sheath from Brooks Brothers caught my eye. The notched neckline provides a little bit of visual interest, but it’s not so eye-catching that you couldn’t wear it once a week. I also like that it’s fully lined and a perfect knee length. This is a great basic that you’ll be reaching for over and over again.

The dress is $149 at Brooks Brothers, marked down from $298, and comes in sizes 0–16. It also comes in navy, which is available in regular and petite sizes.

Sales of note for 9.16.24

Sales of note for 9.16.24

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About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. Equestrian Attorney

    Does anyone have anything fun to recommend in Salt Lake City? SO is attending a continuing education seminar there on the weekend of my birthday (in October) and has suggested I come with, we get a nice hotel, he gets me a day pass at a spa or something and we go for a nice dinner after the seminar. I’m usually up for exploring on my own, but SLC is not a place I know and honestly not a destination I would have picked of my own accord. Any suggestions for nice hotel/restaurant/spa and other interesting outings, maybe a nice hike? I enjoy skiing, but I’m guessing October is too early for that.

      • Equestrian Attorney

        Ohhh I hadn’t thought a trail ride but yes I would love that! I will look it up, unless there is a place you recommend?

        • Hazel

          Unfortunately I moved away from Utah 6 years ago and don’t have any specific recommendations — but October really was my favorite time of year there! If you have access to a car, driving through the Aspen Loop between Provo Canyon and American Fork Canyon is stunning. And you can get a really good dinner at the Tree Room at Sundance https://www.sundanceresort.com/dining/tree-room/

      • Anonymous

        +1 for City Creek! Please report back if the Bigfoot footprint is still there.

    • Anon

      If you like the outdoors at all, SLC is worth a visit.
      Spas: The Cliff at Snowbird (a bit of a drive but has a very Instagram worthy rooftop pool), The Grand America (right downtown), Kura Door (near downtown)
      Hotels: In Salt Lake proper, I think the nicest hotels are The Grand America and Hotel Monaco.
      Restaurants: Salt Lake’s dining scene is so much better than it was ten years ago. Without knowing what you like or where you’re coming from, some places to consider are Log Haven (a bit of a drive but a gorgeous setting), SLC Eatery, Table X, Valter’s, Red Iguana (not fancy, just really famous Mexican food), The Rest.
      Activities: Caputos for craft chocolate (also cheese and conservas), Natural History Museum, the Aviary at Liberty Park, Gigal Sculpture Garden, brewery hopping. If you want to go up to Park City, I love getting a drink on the outdoor patio at the St. Regis at Deer Valley.
      Hikes: City Creek (right downtown), Ensign Peak (near downtown), Silver Lake, Donut Falls.
      October is too early for skiing, although if you come near the end of the month there may be a little snow.

    • Anon

      Get a car and get out of town. Park City is lovely and I’m sure there are other scenic areas within daytripping distance. I was in SLC for a conference a few years ago and found the city itself extremely underwhelming (I didn’t have a car so was limited to SLC proper). I’d heard a lot of hype about the food scene but I was very underwhelmed by it and so were most of my colleagues. I can’t think of a single restaurant I can enthusiastically recommend. We stayed at the Grand America hotel and I thought it was super dumpy and I’m not really a hotel snob. I have zero desire to return to SLC itself but Utah is definitely a beautiful state in terms of outdoorsy stuff.

    • Cat

      I have terrible luck as a pear-hourglass especially with sheath styles. I stick mainly to shells and sweaters, with the occasional A-line or wrap style dress mixed in.

    • I have this dress

      I have this dress, and I love it.

      I’m a very busty hourglass, and I had it altered (in store). I bought size 6 to skim the bust, and the had the waist and hips and small of back taken in and the length shortened to above knee (more flattering on me) so maybe a 4 with bust in the end. Fits beautifully, but not off the rack.
      BB is a little boxy off the rack.

  3. Anon

    My teen niece is all-in on the mom-jean shorts and crop tops, which I will take as a signal to stay far away from all higher-rise denim. Niece is a great girl, but current offerings in the denim department aren’t working on a non-teen body of a person who has a job to get back to. Maybe our eyes got used to business-casual (and office-casual) with mid-rise denim, but I’ve decided that my 2021 denim purchases just feel overly costumey and have been demoted to weekend wear (unfortunately, current purchases were due to COVID-upsizing, but they are just so d*mn unflattering or I just never figured out how to style things; maybe they do scream for crop tops, but I’m going to have to put a pillow over those screams).

    • No Face

      My rule is that I do not buy any article of clothing unless it looks and feels great. The bulky mom jeans trend do neither for me. I am sticking to high rise skinny jeans.

    • Anon

      Sometimes you need a garment that covers the body you have at the moment. And then you are stuck with what is in shops at the moment. The options are so bad that it is motivating me to get back to my prior size. Usually, I’d be willing to throw $ at the problem. Not today.

      • anon

        This exactly. I’m not happy about my pandemic weight gain and am slowly losing it, with the main motivator being able to fit into the clothes that I actually like. The current styles are straight-up ugly and I don’t want to wear them!

        • Anon

          Same here, except it’s baby weight, not pandemic weight.

          Not only are the styles are ugly, they are completely the opposite of what we all want. I did not move to a farm where I milk cows and play in the pasture before logging on in the morning, and the tiered ruffles aren’t doing it. However, I would LOVE more comfortable, stretchy workwear.

          • anon

            LOL, word.

            Stretchy workwear, yes please, sign me up now. Little House on the Prairie? No thanks.

    • Anon

      Low-rise jeans fit my body properly and feel comfortable, so that’s what I wear, in style or not. I’m just not willing to submit to trends in denim the way I do in tops, IDK. At least it’s motivation to keep up on my crunches.

      • Anonymous

        Where do you find them? I’m short waisted and can’t even find mid-rise right now (except skinny jeans or jeggings, which I don’t want)

        • Anon

          Rag & Bone. You can filter the jeans selection by low rise, mid rise, high rise, and super high rise.

    • Anon

      I try to take a nod to what’s current without necessarily going all in. My jeans aren’t super wide leg, but are not skinny anymore either, with more of a straight profile. My jeans aren’t super high rise, but have a higher rise than a few years ago.

      • Anon

        This sounds like what I’m looking for but can’t find. Can you recommend brands / models? I used to swear by Gap, but it’s not mid-rise hip-friendly enough currently.

        • emeralds

          It sounds like Anon at 9:58 and I have landed in the same place, and I’m loving my Madewell Perfect Vintage jeans. I’ve definitely got hips to fit in ’em :)

        • Anonanonanon2

          I did madewell stovepipe to dip my toe in the pool of non-skinny jeans and have been very happy with them.

    • Anon

      I recommend the J Crew straight leg mid-rise jeans! They are super comfortable and flattering without feeling suffocating.

    • Anon

      I’m still stuck in my pull on skinny jeans because they work with all my tops. I’d love to have the same in a straight leg rather than skinny but when I ordered what was labeled the same style, they were the type that fall down all day (not too big, just too much spandex) and that drives me nuts. Back they went.

    • anonymous

      I say wear what you like and feel good in, and anyone who is judging you for wearing skinny jeans is lame. Flattering (and as a result, you feeling happy and confident) but slightly off trend will always beat wildly unflattering even if on trend in my view. And I lol’d @ “put a pillow over those screams.”

    • Anon

      Why are you comparing your clothing choices to your teen niece? Of course your choices/preferences are different?

      • Anonymous

        I think she is saying that the trends only work for teenagers and there is nothing in the stores for grown-ups.

    • Sloan Sabbith

      I’m loving Betabrand jeans. They have classic styles in a variety of washes and they don’t look like jeggings from 2011. They have functional pockets and a fake fly and button. The models on their website have shirts tucked in and they look like normal jeans. I have them in black, a light wash, and a classic blue wash. I’ll probably buy them in a darker wash for work.

      If anyone is interested in trying them, I can get you a referral code.

  4. Coffee Maker

    Does anyone have the Cuisinart Premium Single Serve Coffee Maker who could weigh in on how well the “HomeBarista” filter cup works? I’m working on replacing my Ninja coffee maker which makes good coffee, but was nearly impossible to clean and began to leak. I like the look of the Cusinart, and it seems much smaller. But my primary requirement is a decent, single serve cup of coffee that is not tied to k-cups. It is fine that it can use a k-cup, but it can’t be the only mode of operation. Thank you!

  5. Anon

    Does anyone have any Lilly Pulitzer sports attire (specifically tennis and golf attire) or Tory Sport? I am itching for reasons not to pull the trigger on something. I am tired of dour solids and since I’m still 50% WFH and have a dog to walk and if I had more time would play these sports, this will be my summer “work” shopping. If stuff is pretty but falls apart, that would help my wallet. But my heart is entranced, particularly by how old school the Tory Sport stuff looks. Not interested in either brand’s normal clothes — the appeal of washable hang-to-dry stuff is right up my alley, along with wicking material.

    • Veronica Mars

      If you’re not a regular follower of the brand, check out the annual endless summer sale from Lilly. Generally, it’s a 3 day sale in August or September after the main season is over and they have discounts 30-70% off, some athletic apparel included.

      • Anonymous

        The Afterparty Sale merchandise isn’t returnable. I only buy from the sale if I have tried the exact item on in the store. Sizing is too inconsistent and a lot of the prints are more garish in person.

    • Cat

      Unfortunately I am here to tell you that Lilly’s athleisure is lovely. However, if you’re willing to wait, perhaps buy a few pieces now (regular price) so you know the fit and can return if needed, and then hold off until late summer. Lots of pieces will be part of the After Party Sale (great deals but final sale only).

  6. anon

    low-key ask of the day – any recent favorite summer dresses/skirts/shirts you bought that you loved?

  7. Bikini bottom

    I’m looking for a new, good quality bikini bottom. I know Lands End gets recommended here a lot, but I find most of their styles to be way too conservative (and the few that aren’t are very limited in size and color). My main concerns are that it fit well (stays on with swimming/playing in waves without squeezing up a lot of muffin top) and doesn’t ride up in the back. I want a dark solid color (black, navy, purple, maroon, etc) and medium coverage/rise (not over the belly button). Preferably under $40.

    Suggested brands? TIA!

    • Anon

      Cost may be an limiting factor, but Athleta and Title 9 would be where I’d look. For less expensive . . . I never had problems with ON swimwear riding up. But my LE stuff has lasted so long that I’ve not bought ON for a while.

    • Cat

      JCrew sells tons of styles of bikini bottoms. They don’t hold up for like 4+ years like LE does but… they are way cuter. Mine usually last two summers of frequent wear.

      • NYCer

        +1. J Crew has so many options! I also second the recommendation from a later poster for Tommy Bahama.

    • Anon

      VS met this need for me, though I can’t speak to longevity since I swim less than five times per year.

    • Target (with a french accent)

      Honestly, I get my bikinis from target and am happy with them.

    • PolyD

      Prana. Sometimes you can find last year’s styles for cheaper on Zappos or Amazon or 6pm.com (although watch out for 6 pm because you have to pay to ship things back).

  8. Anon

    I have a PT schedule — generally in-office 9-4 (before times), get home for school-aged kids /dinner, work later as needed. I feel like corona up-ended that on the regular. My kids didn’t go back to school until April-ish (then spring break, then end-of-year testing, then done by Memorial Day). So the day shift took longer, quite a bit some days. But the real challenge is colleagues needing specialized work routinely after 4. I can’t really type e-mails or take calls while driving, so I easily loose an hour of even being available during this time, but “until 8” is not an inaccurate description of the workday for other co-workers.

    For any of you in a similar boat, how to you juggle the second shift? I need to do better at this, especially re managing expectations. It is easy to meet expectations for the people who regularly send me routine work. It’s the one-offs in a weird year that demand to go first that are ruining it.

    • Anon

      Do the colleagues really need your replies right away? Can it wait until the morning? My office is not as big on email as everyone else’s seems to be — our culture is that if you need something urgently, you call, if it can wait a while, you email.

      • Anonymous

        Yes, I’d just get back to them substantively when I can. Most often, I at least acknowledge the email soon though. People mainly just want to know they’re not being ignored. A quick “Thank you for your email. I’ll look into this [as soon as I’m back at my desk, within a day or two, tomorrow morning, this evening, etc.]” goes a really long way.

        • Anonymous

          I agree with this approach, but not after work. If someone sends me an email at 3:50 pm, they’ll get a “thanks for your message! I’ll get to this by Friday” at 8:00 am the next day.

          • 9:31 Anon

            I do this becuase I am full time but work a flex schedule without advertising it. No one has ever complained that I don’t get work done (because I do get it done), but I leave my desk in the mid afternoon. If I had official hours, I’d feel differently. But I want to feel reachable and attentive. It takes just a few seconds and goes a really long way for maintaining both internal and external relationships.

          • Anonanonanon2

            I think it depends on how much of a favor the PT schedule was… if it’s normally “not done” at your workplace and they did it to keep you, I think setting 15 minutes aside in the evening to respond with “Received! Should be able to turn this around by 2 PM tomorrow, thanks!” doesn’t hurt.

      • Anonymous

        The OP will know her own situation better, but in my office, it’s incredibly common for people to act like emails are urgent when they’re really, truly not. It’s okay to wait until business hours to accept a meeting invite for an company-wide brown bag in three weeks time, you know?

        • anon

          Yeapppp. 90% of the “urgent” things I get are only urgent because the person wants them to be. I get to them when I get to them unless they fall in the truly urgent category (very rare) and I actually get paid to work FT!

      • Anon

        Ditto this. Also, if they need the answers the following morning, could you shift some of the work to right after you wake up in the AM? Or book the first hour of your day to respond to these questions so everyone gets an answer by 10-1030 am?
        I do think a lot of it is training people to not expect immediate responses, so maybe a quick “got it, will get back to you tomorrow morning” sent in the evening may help?

    • Anonymous

      Maybe I am being obtuse, but I wouldn’t consider 9-4 with logging on after dinner/bedtime a “part-time schedule.” It’s still a 35 hour week, minimum, and I would assume it probably is 40+ on a regular basis. If you’re being paid for a part-time schedule, I would not log on after 4 pm or would only respond to evening requests with an email saying you will provide a substantive reply in the morning (unless it’s an absolute unforeseeable emergency, but that’s not what this sounds like). Your colleagues either need to be made aware of your part-time schedule and make their requests accordingly, or you need to make sure you’re being compensated for a full-time schedule. Otherwise this is the trap that many women get caught in – they ask for and request a part time schedule, with the attendant decrease in pay and delayed advancement opportunities, but end up working full time anyway (and typically carrying a heavier burden at home given they are “part time” at work).

      • Anon

        I wouldn’t want to advertise that I’m PT b/c that seems to signal “give the interesting high-level work to someone else.” I see some accountants with their schedule on their signature block (and often they are on/off on particular days each week), but IDK if that flies outside of Big4.

        FWIW, I’m like 80%, but some weeks I work 25% and some weeks I work 125%, so overall it is better than FT but also kind of loco.

      • anon

        +1,000 This isn’t part-time. Stop working FT at a PT salary. This is not your problem. Answer the emails when you are working your PT hours, don’t when you shouldn’t be working.

        • Anon

          And +1,000 to this. At one point, when my son was young, I ended up in a “part-time” job that was like this, and eventually ended up working 40+ hours a week for very part-time pay. When I went to my boss (who was the business owner) and said, either I need to be paid for full-time work or I am cutting back my hours, she fired me – which was fine, because I was then able to go get a legitimately part-time job at a higher hourly rate. Some employers will push it as far as they can until you push back. OP’s schedule sounds more like what I worked in a full-time job a few years ago, where I got full-time pay and benefits.

      • CPA Lady

        This was common at the last place I worked. Moms of young children would go on “reduced hours” at a 20-25% pay cut, bill approx. the same number of hours as non reduced employees, and be treated like they were less serious about their careers. When that was offered to me as an option I decided to find another job instead.

        • No Face

          Exactly! This is how part-time works at every single law firm, which is why I have never been officially part-time no matter what was going on in my life.

          One year, there was a dramatic drop in work in my practice area overall. (Large, industry-wide drop affecting the largest clients). I billed 80% and made 100% of my salary. So did all the dudes. The women who went part-time worked the same amount, but with 80% of their salary.

      • Anon

        OP here — at first, I got a week free (due to client demands being very light on a predictable basis), which was golden to my sanity when my kids were much younger. Now, I get made-whole and it’s pretty much worked out to 75% over all, just very lumpy. I’d love to beat things into 9-4 and be busy every week of the month, but this gives me a bit of cover for routinely walking out the door quite early in the workday, which I really appreciate and no one has ever fussed about.

        • Anon

          Fwiw, it’s a suckers deal. You’d probably have no issues performance wise going “full time” with the same schedule. The guilt /angst/ whatever it is you’re feeling is something only you will notice. I manage a large team and have no idea what hours anyone keeps. Don’t care. And I’m sure plenty of full time people work as you describe.

        • Aunt Jamesina

          OP, you know your workplace best, but it’s so sucky that you feel you have to do this because you “walk out the door quite early”– of course you do. You’re supposed to be working part time!

    • Curious

      After so many people saying they have to answer email on vacation yesterday, I’m really glad to see it’s normal to set evening boundaries around it at least. I was getting a little freaked out!

      • anon

        I posted yesterday that I set boundaries, stick to them, and don’t work on vacation/PTO. I also don’t work weekends or evenings. If that’s the expectation at a job, I find a different one. I do not live to work.

        • Anonymous

          +1. I set boundaries and stick to them. Others around me don’t and that’s their business. Just because others work on vacation doesn’t mean I have to.

        • Curious

          Same here! Was starting to feel like my job was a unicorn for making that possible.

          • anon

            My job doesn’t make it possible. I do. I could easily work 60 hrs a week, nights, weekends, and on vacation like my boss does, but I refuse. There is always more work but as I always say, accommodating being understaffed is not my problem as an IC!

  9. NYC Mayoral Primary

    Well, the day is here and I’m still undecided how to rank to mayor. There’s one candidate that I think is ok and one that I absolutely hate, but I strongly dislike the rest of the field. I want to actually use the rank choice voting because I think it’s great, but I didn’t expect to have such a disappointing slate of options. Going to be a game day decision in the polling booth I guess! How are other New Yorkers feeling about this?

    • NYCer

      There is no one I was overly excited about, but I ended up ranking four people.

    • NYNY

      I ended up ranking 3. I’m inspired by the strong women in the race, but realized before I voted last week that I could not abide one’s policies, even though I think she’s incredibly competent, so I left her off. Agree that most of them are not the candidates I want, but it could be worse – look at the options for the Republicans!

    • Anon

      As much as I personally loathe Bloomberg, he did a good job as mayor. I don’t have high hopes for anyone reigning in the hot mess NYC is becoming. Maybe Adams. But I have a feeling when the Curtis Sliwa of old becomes relevant again, which is sad for NYC — it deserves not to move backwards like that and I feel like with so many people leaving during the pandemic that we need to come back, they may not come back if things seem to be taking a wrong turn with this election.

      • Anon

        Could the NYers on the board expand on how NYC has changed since ~2014? I moved away but am considering moving back in a few years.

        • Anonymous

          It has changed the most because of the pandemic, not because of Bloomberg vs DeBlasio. Pre-pandemic, I don’t think it was very different. Currently unemployment is high (due to lingering impact on tourism, hospitality, etc), most offices are still remote, which has a big impact on midtown and the Financial District, and crime is up, as it is all over the US. My neighborhood in Brooklyn feels the same as ever.

    • Anonymous

      I did the Meet your Mayor quiz at Thecity.nyc and got some options. I’m pretty progressive–more than many here I think–but I ranked Wiley, Stringer, Morales, Chang, and Garcia, in that order. I don’t think any are perfect, but when I looked at the policy quiz, they also aren’t THAT different. There was an article in the NY Times that basically recommended you rank at least one of the front runners (Adams, Garcia, Wiley, maybe Yang) highly to avoid having no say at all. I found trying to pick my 3rd, 4th etc choice candidates for some of the other offices harder since there is less info and endorsements about them. And I always hate trying to figure out which judges to vote for.

  10. anon

    My field’s largest professional conference will be held online again this year. I’m really missing the opportunity to meet up with colleagues across the nation and to meet new people through networking. I have an idea for making this happen virtually but I have no idea how to make it happen technologically. What I want to do is send out an invite to my closer network (about 100 people), and ask them to sign up for a virtual meet up if they are interested. Once they sign up, I want a system to randomly group them, say in groups of 10. Then at an appointed social hour during our conference proceedings, these 10 people would meet for 30-60 minutes to socialize. It’s highly likely that within the groups of 10, people would know at least one or two others and also have the chance to meet new people. I know people at varying stages of their careers so this would give everyone a chance to meet newer professionals and seasoned professionals. If it’s a flop, it’s only an hour of their time at most. If it’s successful, it could be fun and address some of that socializing that we are all missing right now. And it’s completely voluntary anyway so no pressure to do it. 1) does this sound like something you’d want to do? 2) how would I make this happen? I would need a system for people to sign up, then a system to randomly assign them a group. I guess once those groups are formed then I could appoint one person to be the lead and send out their Zoom info to their group ahead of time. Thoughts? TIA!

    • Anon

      Ten is actually a bit big for Zoom; I would do 5-8 people.

      Here’s what you do: make a g00gle form for people to fill out and submit their information. Assign every person a number from 1-100 (or whatever your maximum is), and then do a random number generator with no repeats. (Excel has this function; look up instructions online.) 1-8 are group A, 9-16 group B, etc.

      • anonshmanon

        I am confused by what you are trying to do. Zoom lets you randomly put people in breakout rooms of whatever size you want. What do you achieve by collecting information and making group assignments in excel?

        • anon

          ha, you are right, I’m making this more complicated than it has to be. Thank you for this, I wasn’t thinking about it clearly. I appreciate your kind effort to help me think this through!

    • Cat

      I have attended a ton – like 15+ – networking events where there was first a big session (like a CLE) and then attendees were separated into small break-out sessions within Zoom. You probably need a paid account to be able to do it.

    • Anon

      I’m a lawyer, which tends to be a relatively awkward and antisocial group IME. Could you do a smaller scale and just sent out messages to a smaller group saying “hey, I miss seeing you and networking with folks at IndustryCon. Want to hop on a zoom with a few people at the 10 am break?” I think a downside of virtual conferences is that people will be multitasking so fewer people will have the focused time than compared to in person conferences, but this may allow some connections.

    • Anon

      I am just zoomed out. I’ve had my shots and so have most adults I know, so I’d rather meet any person who can fog a mirror in person vs even the most awesome people by zoom, especially if I’ve never met them before.

      • Anon

        This. Last year I’d have been in, but now I’ll just wait for something to see you at in person. Zero interest in virtual networking like that.

        • anon

          Right, so you just wouldn’t accept the invite! That’s why this is opt in only.

          • Cat

            FWIW I agree with 10:28 – I’ve done so many of these and am not feeling the need to do more with the end in sight. So I don’t know that I’d expend a lot of energy trying to set it up.

    • anonshmanon

      You could invite everyone to a zoom meeting and use the breakout rooms for this. It should work in the free version. You could have a look at gather.town which allows a slightly more natural networking experience. I’ve been using it for virtual poster presentations which are a big part of conferences in STEM. For your case, you might want to spend about $100 to get enough bandwidth, but it could be worth it.

    • Greensleeves

      My husband’s department recently had a virtual happy hour using Gather (gather.town). It functioned like the networking/cocktail hour at a conference in that you could walk your avatar around and join a small group, interact only with the people in that group, then wander off to join another group. I know there are other platforms that operate similarly. Perhaps that would allow you to get people together to mix and mingle without having to sort them into smaller groups yourself?

    • Anon

      I would just manage your expectations and not be disappointed if people don’t opt in. I have zoom calls all the time with my friends and work and I just don’t need another for networking, as much as I as an extrovert love networking in person.

      I also miss in person conferences a lot, but another zoom call would definitely not fill that hole for me.

        • anon

          You’re opinion is valid but I do generally know my audience and I’m pretty sure that out of 100 or so people, at least 25-45% would opt in. If that’s all that is interested, that’s fine with me! I’d probably put out some feelers first to see if there’s interest anyway. Don’t worry, I won’t invite you! :)

  11. Life goals stress

    I know a lot of advice will be therapy, but I can’t talk to a therapist today, and I just need to talk this out, and unfortunately feel like I have no one to talk to.

    Six months ago I purchased a house with my H. It was not our ideal house but with rapidly rising prices we couldn’t be super picky. Our market is incredibly stressful. It is a fine house, but I do have some regrets about it, mainly that I feel like we undersold ourselves. We could have afforded more, but I guess got scared about doing that. When I say afford, I genuinely mean afford, not maxed out or anything. We are lucky to be high income earners, but in our city, it doesn’t seem to matter!

    I have felt pangs of regret to deep despair about the house. My husband is more optimistic. One of the other reasons I feel sad is because it felt like we bought a cheaper house in the event i stepped back from work, for any reason, but obviously the main one is that if we had a kid. Well, a child is up for debate in our marriage. I think I’m resenting the house because I am really unsure if I want a child, so here I am, sacrificing for a child I’m not sure I want right now, and also, double whammy with the really hot housing market, I feel like the years of saving and scrimping to buy was a waste of my time. I feel like, I can’t both have a child and contribute the income necessary to afford me the life I want without working myself into the ground. It makes me feel devalued, like no matter how hard I try, I will fail. Paradoxically, it makes me want to quit my job entirely altogether. The life I envisioned even two years ago is drastically different than what I got due to covid. If I was a couple of years ahead of the curve, my life would have been quite different.

    These are definitely problems most people would be lucky to have, do not get me wrong. I guess I’m really struggling with reconciling the vision for my life I had up until recently with what I seem to be getting. It’s causing a lot of stress in our marriage, we deeply love each other, but I worry what I envision for my life is different than what my H envisions. I’m a big self-fulfillment/self-actualization person, and lately I haven’t felt that way about anything in my life. My H is a lot more go with the flow, for lack of a better phrase. I worry it’s becoming an incompatibility.

    Of course, the pandemic probably has made me more stressed out and likely isn’t helping my emotional state. I don’t know if I’m seeing clearly, but I have no way to see clearly. I haven’t had a vacation in forever, we’re both busy, I feel a bit trapped in the work cycle.

    We both love each other a lot, but I don’t want to deprive him of what his ideal life is, and vice versa. I don’t see the compromise, because having a child necessarily burdens your finances and likely won’t allow us to move up in a house because I’d have to take a step back. Maybe we would, but I haven’t done the math, and I’m worried that the never-ending market increases will just keep going. I am a problem solver by nature, and I can’t figure out the solution to the problem. If I had a vision, I would be much happier working towards it. I’m concerned there is no solution, and I’m worried our incompatibility on this front is a more fundamental issue.

    • anon

      OK, this is a lot, but I’d encourage you to separate the house issue from the kid issue, even though they seem intertwined. Houses do not have to be forever; they really don’t. No, you don’t know what the market is going to do, but if you still hate this house a few years from now, moving is almost always an option. I’m curious why you picked this particular home in the first place or why you decided to buy. If it’s the best you could do at the time — well, that’s OK. It doesn’t have to be your dream house or your forever house. Own the decision, and make this house your own.

      I have no advice on the kid front, other than to figure out whether you really want them before you start worrying about everything else. I’m curious why you think it would be inevitable that you’d step back and earn less after kids. Would your husband be willing to be the primary parent? Or do you even need to cut back your work hours?

      You seem pretty unhappy in general (no judgment — pandemics will do that to ya), and it seems like you’re pinning a lot of your angst on the house and the possible kid. But those are two very big things, and there are much smaller things you can do to feel more self-actualized or whatever.

      • Quail

        Yes, all of this. What comes across to me in this is ambivalence about having a kid because you don’t want to step back (and the house is a material manifestation of your future intention to step back). I think a lot of women assume they will want to step back when they have kids – you can, but you do not have to. Lots of us here have not stepped back. You can set boundaries and have family time and work time. Your husband can step back. You can both step back 10% or 20% (unofficially) and still be great at your jobs, earning money, and paying for convenience/outsourcing to not feel like you are working yourself to death.

        As for the self-actualization/difference in motivation – this is something I have seen in my marriage to some extent. I wonder if your husband seems go with the flow because you are a take-charge decision maker. Also, the pandemic has really done a number on all of us, and we all respond in different ways. I think (arm chair psychologist here) a lot of people have a low-level depression as a result of the pandemic. I definitely did. Is there something non-work, non-house you can sort of force yourself to do as a way to feel like you are making progress at something? For me, this past year has felt like treading water in a tub of pudding as far as my career goes, and since recently taking on an athletic challenge I’ve felt way, way better.

        And PPs are right. You can always sell the house. This market is bananas and I know lots of people have had to settle on some aspect of their home because it’s just so hard to buy right now. You made the best decision you could on the timeframe you had, and it is not a permanent sentence for you to have a kid and lean out just because you bought a less expensive house. The choice to spend less does keep more options open though – your husband taking a step back, taking more vacations, spending more on extra child care so you have time to work and have date nights and go on girls trips and take time for yourself.

        A thought – what does your life look like in 5 years with a kid? Without? For me, I was ambivalent about kids (like, I don’t like kids generally and was not like “I have always wanted to be a mom!”) but ultimately couldn’t see myself living my chosen life without having given parenthood a shot. I could see many amazing lives without them if parenthood wasn’t possible for us – but it became clear when I thought about my ideal future, that future included children. No one can answer that question for you but you, and I greatly admire people who decide that kids are not for them. I think that takes a lot of self-reflection because kids are often a default.

        • Anon

          OP, you need to take a vacation, and maybe spend some time working at a coffee shop or library or something so you can get out of the house a little bit. I totally get the “these four walls are closing in on me” feeling – I was there last year during lockdown – and changing up your location absolutely can change your perspective. I wouldn’t have any big convos with your husband or make any big decisions until you change up your daily routine a little and see if that helps your mindset.

          It’s totally fine to prioritize achieving financial independence over having a kid. It’s totally fine to realize you’re on a treadmill with your career, and slow down or step off of it. It’s totally fine to sell a house you really do not like so you can rent an apartment that makes you happier. I do just want to offer this, which some others have said in different ways: very, very few of us in this world get everything we want, the way we want it, when we want it. That trope about “you can have it all, you just can’t have it all at once” is very, very true in my experience (as I navigate my fifth decade). Life is all about choices, and offsetting negative impacts of some choices with the positive impacts of other choices. I know that I came to a point, somewhere in my thirties, where I realized that while my life was not anything close to what I had envisioned when I was younger, it was good and I could be happy if I chose to be happy. I don’t believe in toxic positivity, but I do believe in having a gratitude attitude and accepting commonsense, real-world realities about how good I have it vs. many others who would trade places with me in a heartbeat. You are fortunate, and have tons of choices; choose what is going to make you happy long-term.

      • Life goals stress

        Thanks everyone, try to respond to the general thoughts that came up in all of the thoughtful replies :)

        We bought the house because it was dated aesthetically in a way that we know we could upgrade to increase it’s value, and do it the way we like. We are working on those plans, which is good. Fortunately we were honest with our assessment of the costs of these updates so it isn’t sticker shock or anything. The reason I worry about it is because it’s probably a bit small for us in the future.

        I’m also probably obsessed about the house because I spend ALL of my time here. My life IS my house right now. Still working at home, etc.

        My H makes 50% more than me so it doesnt make sense for him to step back. I might get to his level if I keep working at the same pace, but his salary is more secure than mine. He also has a very demanding inflexible job. He is an equal partner but there is only so much he can do. He tries very hard. If I was a man in a relationship with a lower salaried spouse, my life would be much different. In fact, most of my male colleagues are the bread winners.

        The comment about being disillusioned about the corporate world has hit the nail on the head- I went above and beyond to save in my 20s, I sacrificed a lot, thinking that I was smart. I feel shame that I thought I was being smart and turns out it wasn’t the right move. It’s made me resent this climbing the ladder when the ladder just gets longer each year.

        I have had my other hobbies taken away from me during the pandemic so I don’t have those outlets either

        I feel like I’m being pushed in two opposing directions- to make more so we can achieve financial independence and I’m not beholden to my job, be secure, and then to also have a child which really impacts your ability to get to FI. Family of course pressures you to have children, but no one is willing to help or support us. Nannies are extremely expensive here. None of the family were working mothers, none of them had hobbies outside of motherhood, so I worry people will see me as selfish for hiring a nanny.

        Sometimes I feel like I’m some sort of video game character. I’ve lost a lot of purpose in my life this past year.

        My H wants a child, but knows I’m a fencesitter. He states that he has accepted it might not happen. He is open to a childfree life. But deep down I know a child would make him happy.

        • Anon

          “Family of course pressures you to have children, but no one is willing to help or support us. Nannies are extremely expensive here. None of the family were working mothers, none of them had hobbies outside of motherhood, so I worry people will see me as selfish for hiring a nanny.”

          I have had some comments made for the fact that I continue to work, despite the fact that I substantially out earn my husband. Yes, it sucks, but the person who matters is my husband, and in his opinion, my job is a tremendous asset to our family. In all of these situations (what city you live in, how you raise your kids, how many kids to have, how you did your wedding), the best response is always “This is the decision we came to as a couple.” Then shrug. Discussion over.

        • Anon for this

          A few reactions, take them or leave them –

          “My H makes 50% more than me so it doesnt make sense for him to step back.” If this is non-negotiable, and you do not want to step back, do not have children with him. He cannot have it all (job and kids he wants) while you make both sacrifices (stepping back and having kids you are ambivalent about.) Do not give in on this.

          “financial independence” – what is the push for financial independence? Have you talked with your therapist about this? I worry about the additional pressure the FI goal places on you – to what end? Is this a non-negotiable part of your vision for your life? How does your husband feel about this goal?

          It also just sounds like you are burned out at your job. Have you considered making a move?

    • Anon

      There’s a lot going on in this post, so I’ll offer a few thoughts in case any are helpful:
      – decorate and/or renovate the house you bought now. Even changing kitchen counters (if they need it) and not doing a full blown reno can make a huge difference. Get a designer of some kind. Get wallpaper. Make it your own and you’ll probably start to love it. Almost zero houses are great when you first get them.
      – don’t have kids unless you’re both 100% yes. They are expensive and you can have a great life without them. Take a vacation with your husband and really talk it through.
      – you sound disconnected from each other. Take some time off and really reconnect.

    • Vicky Austin

      I don’t have a ton of constructive advice for you, but I have been in a similar place, and I just want to say that I hear you. You are dealing with a whole lot very bravely. I’m sorry for the anguish you’ve been in. I also think Anon@10:34 gave you a lot of good tips. Hugs.

    • Anon

      You sound like you’re in a bit of an anxiety spiral, which I know all too well. For me, the first way to break the spiral is to imagine the very worst possible outcome and then play it out in my head. Once I know what the “worst” option is, I talk through ways I could deal with that outcome, and that usually breaks the spiral. But if you have other techniques, use those. Nothing will be productive until you’ve broken it.

      Assuming you’ve gotten out of the spiral, you can start to pick this apart a bit. I know it feels like they’re all one big problem but there are a couple discrete items to think through.
      1) The house. Do you like it? Could you be happy there? Are you feeling the FOMO of a bigger house or do you truly think this is the wrong house for you two?
      2) The potential kids. It sounds like a major factor in your uncertainty is how much work falls to you afterwards. Have you talked with H about division of labor during pregnancy and after the kid? Does he show you now that he is and will be an equal partner? (When we discussed kids, I flat out told my H that I was not going to have kids if he didn’t contribute equally. Food is 3x/day every day plus clean up and no option to skip, mowing the lawn is once a week in the summers and nothing breaks if you wait another day. Traditional gender role divisions were NOT going to work for me, and he understood. 8+ years later and I still feel like we’re equal partners.)
      3) The work. You seem to be working a lot but don’t see a lot of benefit beyond the salary. Can you plan a longer vacation to rethink your career? Decide if you need to feel fulfilled from work or if you only need the paycheck because you can feel fulfilled elsewhere. What level of income gets you where you want, and are you willing to give up the hours to get there? What creative options get you there – can you downshift so you have more time for volunteering? Can you ramp up so you hit a higher income tier?
      4) The marriage. I don’t know anyone whose marriage is in a great space right now – this pandemic has been trying on everyone. It sounds like you still love him, but aren’t sure if your paths are moving the same way. I think you’re maybe feeling uncertain about your path and don’t feel confident he’ll follow you whatever you choose. I’d probably focus first on reconnecting (that long vacation?) and then once you feel like you both can breathe again, start talking through dealbreakers. If he must have kids and you must not, then you’ll have some hard decisions. But if you’re both ambivalent, there’s still a path together. IF you have that connection to help you navigate.

      Good luck. I know these feel like a lot, but you can think through them. Consider a “sick day” this week to take care of your mental health and give yourself the space to think. You’ve got this.

    • anon

      You’ve gotten some good advice already, so I am going to focus on one thing only.

      It’s your husband’s job to communicate his wants, needs, and desires to you about what he wants his life to look like. It is NOT your job to worry about whether you are depriving him of XYZ if he has never once indicated that you are depriving him of XYZ. I echo that you need to take a break from work – TAKE A VACATION – reconnect, and TALK to each other. You aren’t in this alone and as part of a married couple, you should be talking about this stuff with each other and helping each other through it (that’s not to say that you can’t do some talk therapy of your own in a separate arena, but you still need to talk to each other).

    • Anon

      All the decisions you’ve made so far can be undone, and in the meantime you’re in a house that’s building equity. Deep breaths. None of this is set in stone.

      Now, my two cents as a total stranger with only what you’ve written here to go on: are you sure that a standard white-picket-fence life is what you actually want? Your frantic words read like someone ticking off a checklist of “how to adult” and feeling like they’re coming up short. You don’t have to have a house of a certain size or status. You don’t have to have children. You don’t have to grind yourself down and “girl boss”.

      Houses and jobs can be changed up at any time, so let’s address the one decision you can’t undo: becoming a parent. My philosophy is that kids are a “no” unless they’re an enthusiastic “yes”. You sound on the fence, at best. Figuring out whether you truly want a child seems like the most pressing matter, since all your other decisions will be heavily influenced by that choice.

    • Anonymous

      A bigger house is more house to take care of.

      Don’t have a child if you will resent that you can’t afford a fancier house because of childcare costs or whatever.

      No one’s life turns out exactly how they imagine. There is no perfect house. I looked for 7 years before we bought (and even then I had to convince the owners to sell, it wasn’t on the market) and there have still been a ton of renos that we’ve done.

    • anon

      It sounds like this is a mental health/burnout issue and that you should back way up from making any kind of big rash decision about anything right now. When you start spiraling, might I recommend taking some deep breaths and repeating the mantra “I’ll think about this later”. It sounds like you are hung up on all the ways your life is terrible. Would it be helpful for you to get out of your head by helping others or to consider the things that you do have? I was unhappy with my house at first because I was only comparing it against bigger and better houses and it was very upsetting. Then one day I looked across the street at the sh&tty duplexes (that I was mad to have to live across from) and thought “I bet they would love to live in my house” and that suddenly cut through the BS and readjusted my terrible snobby attitude.

      When it comes to the house, is there anything you can change right now that would make you feel better? Paint is great for this. Can you paint something a pretty color that makes you happy? Painting the downstairs of my house a soft pretty blue and adding crisp white crown molding was a major first step for me to start falling in love with it. Making happy memories in a place also can endear it to you. Could you invite friends over and just focus on having fun in the house?

      More broadly, I think a lot of us are incredibly burned out by capitalism right now. We work so hard through this miserable grind for what feels like so little as expenses rise and wages stagnate. The last year and a half has been extremely eye opening and disillusioning for a lot of people. The day the big boss at work said they were thinking about installing surveillance software on our phones and computers to check to see what we were doing at all times (“to make sure you’re accurately capturing all your time”) during the height of the pandemic, I almost quit. I’m not a machine. I think a lot of us feel like we’ve been treated like machines during this time, and that’s going to take some time and space to deal with, emotionally. So if you’re feeling like a disaster, know you’re not alone, and it might not be the house, the husband, the impending life choices. It might just be coming out the other side of a pandemic emotionally exhausted.

    • Anon

      “I am a problem solver by nature, and I can’t figure out the solution to the problem.”

      That’s because there is no “solution” to the long-term ups and downs of the housing market. You have zero control over that (as we all do). I am an Old and can tell you that prices go up, and prices go down. Anyone here who (like myself) lived through the 2007/08 market crash as a homeowner can tell you stories about people who lost everything when they overbought or overextended themselves, so to me, the choice you made looks pretty smart. The housing market is in ludicrous mode; there’s no rhyme or reason to it at this point, and that can’t last forever. Over time, housing values increase but with things up this far, they basically have nowhere to go but down. People have to start repaying their federal student loans in September and that is almost certain to re-inject some rationality into the market – I think. It’s all conjecture at this point from everyone, even very smart economists. No one knows what’s going to happen. Spending time and energy agonizing over macroeconomic conditions you can’t control is a choice – you can choose not to do it. And I would advise you to seriously consider that option.

      As someone else said, houses are not forever, and in buying your current home, you are on the “homeownership ladder” and will likely at some point be able to leverage your current house into something you like better. I am really curious about your focus on owning a nicer home that seems to be crowding out other areas of potential happiness in your life, like having a good marriage or having a child, or just having peace of mind and being okay with where you’re at currently. I am really interested to hear why you think having a nicer house than you currently have is some kind of magical key to happiness? I think those kinds of fairy tales that we tell ourselves – if we just had a nicer/more-expensive thing, everything would be better – are dangerous. My experience has been that people find a way to get the nicer thing (house, car, boat, vacation home, diamond ring, etc.) and then they still aren’t satisfied, because things aren’t a substitute for relationships.

      Also, and I say this because I have done the exact same thing I’m going to describe my own self: sometimes we can latch onto an issue, and overthink it to death, and all of a sudden that one issue becomes the linchpin of our whole existence. If that one issue doesn’t get solved, and solved immediately, our lives are crap. I’ve done that with jobs and with trying to get pregnant. Guess what, I changed jobs, and I got pregnant, and many of the same problems I had were still there. I think therapy is a good idea to figure out what’s causing the anxiety spiral you’re likely in – I mean, besides (vaguely gestures at everything).

      Real question for you to contemplate: what would it feel like to look around your house and say to yourself, “This is a comfortable, safe home. The person I love is here and the objects that mean the most to me are here. I am happy and satisfied in this house for the moment. I look forward to whatever evolves in the future.” And then try to really believe that, rather than believing the house is deficient and therefore your life is on the wrong track, your marriage is falling apart and your job sucks, and you don’t have anything you want in life? Just give it a try and see what happens. Sometimes we literally can think ourselves into a better frame of mind, without anything changing externally.

      • Anon

        This is a great post. You also make a really good point about loan deferments propping up the housing market. Speculation here, but I think that once the prices start to come down, they will go down really, really fast. I know so many retired Boomers, not many ties to their community, kids are out of the house, who hang onto their 4 or 5 bedroom places because they are completely convinced that the value of their house is going nowhere but up. They see no reason to move out until they are too physically infirm to continue living in a house with stairs. Once the market starts to correct itself, a large number of them will see the value in getting out while they can.

        • Seventh Sister

          Some of these retirees also think their houses are worth far more than the market would suggest. And they aren’t alone. I was at a party recently where the GenX host claimed the house was worth about 2x what he paid five years ago. I do think it’s gone up in value, but not that much.

      • IL

        I agree with a lot of this advise, but I will say: you can’t trick yourself into loving a house that you dislike. Especially because that can lead to feeling like you aren’t trying hard enough at making yourself love something when you don’t succeed at tricking yourself. It doesn’t work with romantic partners and it doesn’t work with houses!

        FWIW, most of my friends who bought houses in their late 20s (in the Midwest) all almost immediately realized they made a mistake. The reasons were all over the place: the house was only 15′ wide and felt claustrophobic, the basement was freezing cold (x2 friends with this complaint) and unusable half of the year, it was a walk-up and that didn’t work for the baby and dog they got soon after, it was in a town without some amenity that the person realized was essential to their happiness. And frankly? A lot of these houses were starter homes and they weren’t comfortable and they weren’t pretty. Most of those friends turned around upgraded within 2-3 years and were much happier. There’s no shame in that – I’m happy that they are happier and that it was something within their power to fix.

        And because I had seen so many friends make that mistake, I didn’t make it myself. We went for the shiny new home with all the bells and whistles and let me tell you – it’s worth it. If you think you went with the wrong house and realize there were things that were non-negotiable (and can now identify them) and can afford it, this anonymous internet person is telling you it’s okay to trade up soon, even this soon. Really – people do it all the time.

    • Anon

      What problem do you have, exactly? You keep using terms like “self-fulfillment,” “life you envisioned,” “ideal life,” etc. We live in a deeply broken world and very few people end up with their ideal life, and those who end up there often walked through the dark side of hell at some point.

      It seems like it’s really important to you to have a nice, big house. If that’s the case, run the numbers on what that costs. Look into renovating your current house. Look into buying something bigger. Look into you and your husband moving to a more affordable real estate market. (Even the small cities that are “booming” are booming because people from the HCOL areas are buying up the houses at prices they think are a bargain but are quite expensive compared to pre-pandemic prices.) Run the numbers on how much it costs to have a kid.

    • anon

      I echo the advice to separate the issues–house, child, job, husband. Journal about each if that would help. You don’t have to solve everything at once. I’m sensing a lot of anxiety in your post, and it seems like you’re alternating between trying to control and plan everything and catastrophizing because you can’t plan it all out.

      House: What is it that you don’t like about the house? Can you change what you don’t like about this house? Or is it good stepping stone to a next house? I hear that you could have afforded more, but you may have a time–with or without kids–that you’re happy you didn’t buy more house in a hot market. The market increases will not be forever–it’s all cyclical, and the “this will keep going forever” mentality is exactly what caused the 2008 collapse.

      Child: Do you want a child? How do you see your family in 5 years? 10 years? If you want one, are you ready to welcome a baby or child into your family? What would it take to do so? Remember that children (and especially babies) don’t need a huge, fancy house, and they don’t need ultra wealthy parents to be well cared for and happy.

      Job: This is the shortest-term decision. Many people change jobs every year or two. Careers have seasons. Are you happy with your job right now? Is it more important to you to have more time or more money right now? What options are out there right now? What will the options look like with 2 more years of experience where you ware right now?

      Husband: Honestly, there doesn’t seem to be an issue here unless you’re leaving out a lot of information. It sounds like neither of you really have a vision right now, and he’s OK with that, and you’re not?

    • Anonymous

      If the house is way under budget, take the opportunity to really save. In a few years at least you will be ahead wealth-wise. Better that than you moved into your dream house and realize you actually can’t afford it. A good friend of mine got foreclosed recently and it was heartbreaking. If you really hate it call a decorator, call an architect, remodel.

      Having a kid is totally separate. You can have one or not. You can have one and go back to work full-time, part-time, not at all. You really don’t know how you will feel until you actually have the baby if you do. Don’t worry ahead. There is no rule. It’s not 1950.

      You don’t have to do anything at all. You sound depressed and anxious and like you are grasping at situations to prove you are not happy.

    • Equestrian Attorney

      As someone who is having basically the opposite problem (splurged on a nice long-term house with space for children, and is now struggling to get pregnant), I feel you on how the personal stuff can get intertwined with the house. But I think there are two separate issues here: (1) you feel as though the house you got is not good enough. Whether you step back for kids or not, buying within your budget is always wise. It doesn’t have to be a forever house and you can definitely upgrade later on. In the meantime, decorate it, do minor renovations if needed, landscape the yard… whatever you need to be happy enough with it. (2) it seems you aren’t sure if you want kids. It’s not clear if you want them but are worried about your career, or not sure if you want them at all. If you don’t, that’s fine, although it is a conversation to be had with your spouse. If you do want kids, there are a lot of ways you can still have a career, albeit with certain compromises. Your spouse can get more involved, you can spend money on nannies and anything else to make your life easier and focus on your career, etc. Also, careers are long – my mom took at step back when I was little, then came back and was promoted to a VP position when I was 12. Nothing is forever, and there are a lot of different crossroads you can take.

    • Doodles

      There is no solution to a spouse who wants a child when the other spouse does not. Stop twisting yourself up in knots. This isn’t about the house. It is unfair to string along a spouse who wants children when you don’t. Take a vacation and communicate your desires to your husband and listen to what he wants. If you are incompatible on the question of children, no amount of love will save this marriage. And no amount of love will save your future child(ren) from years of therapy. Raising kids is something both parents should be all in on when possible. Forget about the house. That’s a decision that can be undone.

      • Quail

        Agreed, but I didn’t hear the OP saying she didn’t want kids because she doesn’t want to be a parent – she just doesn’t want to have to sacrifice her ability to earn a high income, to live in the type of house she wants, etc. Those are two different issues. Yes, having a kid is expensive and it is really hard to work/have both parents work high-paying, high-intensity jobs to afford a fancy house in an expensive place AND have a kid. But that is a solvable problem in a relationship that does not have to mean either they don’t have kids or the OP quits her job and becomes a SAHM in a cheaper house (which to me seems like a recipe for resentment in this situation).

        What I 100% agree with is that if one part of a couple does not affirmatively want to have a kid (and I mean want, not “ok with having if you want them”) and the other does, then there is no solution and that couple should go their separate ways ASAP and above all, before having children.

        OP, sounds like you need to have a frank conversation with your spouse about this. It is ok to not be 100% sure right now. It is ok to be worried about what your work life will look like post kid, what your division of household labor will look like, what your finances will look like. All of that is exactly what you should be thinking about now (rather than think it’s going to be a fairytale and it isn’t.) And if your spouse doesn’t share your vision of your post-kid work life/household labor/finances (i.e., he wants to keep working at his career goals while you shelve yours, you take care of the house, and the household loses income because you step back and you are the only one who sacrifices) then DO NOT have kids until you have worked through that. However, it is also completely normal to be worried about the unknowns of having a kid. I had a lot of assumptions about how my life post-kids would be (both better and worse) that have not borne out at all. Part of having kids is giving up control over some aspects of your life. But there are 1000 different ways to make it work and be happy in both your career and having kids.

        • Anon

          This is great advice. One thing to add: conventional wisdom is that the biggest financial hit is from having the first kid, and I’m not actually convinced that’s true. While you can re-use everything from the crib to onesies for the second- and third-born kids, the material economic impact to high-earning women is the hit to their careers. You aren’t worried about affording an infant bather and a changing table; you’re worried about losing out on a professional salary for several decades.

          With one kid, you only ever have one drop-off, one pick-up, one school, one set of activities, one kid staying home from school sick who needs you to work from home that day, etc. The second kid can be the one who really throws a monkey wrench into the works.

    • Anonymous

      It might be helpful to untangle “expectations” from desires. If there are things that you want in life, identify those and figure out how you can move in the direction that could get you those things. Talk to your husband about his desires, as well, and work together to build a cohesive vision of the direction you want to move in. Figure out some concrete steps you can take in the short term that will make you happier with your current circumstances (e.g., decorate or reno a room, plan an addition, make an outdoor space more useful and valuable, take a vacation you can’t easily take with a kid while you sit with the decision about whether to have one, commit to something at work, etc.)
      Shed the expectations and your perceived failure to meet them at this point. Framing your life in this way is only going to cause you to dwell on the past and focus on unproductive feelings of regret and disappointment. When you set those expectations, they sprang from and existed in a void. There was no crazy housing market or Covid or uncertain feelings about children when those expectations took up residence your mind. They aren’t real, so send them away.

    • Anon

      I’ll make a suggestion that might be way off base but I see some signs. You have avoidant attachment and you are ‘deactivating’. All of what you described seems to stem from an inability to know your feelings. Do you feel like you want children, or not? Do you want to be married to your husband, or not? I was that way before therapy. I was so in my head all the time trying to weigh pros and cons to everything and see all the angles. But the real problem was that I couldn’t access my feelings because I pushed them down over many years. There are signs you are concerned about commitment, in terms of the housing market, a child, and your husband. Talking about letting him go to do what’s best for him is familiar language to me. All of the actual things you point out about the market, incompatibilities, etc are just window dressing. You need to find your feelings again and you likely do need therapy to do that. If this might be the case, please try not to make any decisions until you get some therapy in. I wish someone had given me that advice.

    • Anon

      I would also separate the house issue from the kid issue. If you really hate your house you can sell it but let me tell you a story –

      We bought the house we live in several years ago, pre 2008, in a similarly hot market. We had agreed ahead of time on what we were looking for in our second house – we lived in a 2 br 1 bath with two kids under three and wanted a 3br 2 bath.

      I did the majority of the open houses and house hunting because it was too complicated to take the kids and my husband preferred to the the one to stay home. So I only showed him “finalists.” We made two full offers, including negotiating counteroffers, and ultimately failed to win either house. So the house we ultimately bought did not check the boxes the way those did. In fact, it’s bigger and was more of a fixer upper. We had less competition on the slightly larger end of the market (5br 2 1/2 bath) and had the first offer accepted. I was thrilled.

      One night after we moved in I couldn’t find my husband and finally saw him sitting in the living room in the dark. I sat down and asked him what was wrong and I got an absolute diatribe about how he didn’t want this house, how he had just gone along with it, and it was too expensive and too much work and it was all my fault.

      I was stunned. He had signed the papers. He had managed most of the inspections. (I managed the finances.) He had been right there beside me and had never made any sort of a move to stop the house purchase, not even an inkling, but now it wasn’t his choice and was all my fault?

      It’s not fair to do that to your partner. He was doing it because he was stressed out, but I was also stressed out. The time to point these things out is before you buy a house, not when you’re sitting in it, and it’s absolutely never ok to decide a decision you made was someone else’s fault.

      So if you’re feeling this way about the house, that’s on you. And do NOT have kids if you’re not quite sure you want them and then make that another thing your husband imposed on you. Now is the time to express everything to him that you’ve expressed here and just give it some air. You may come around, you may not, but seething anger and resentment is no way to have a good marriage.

    • anon

      I’m sorry you’re feeling so much stress OP. I’ll echo the poster above- you do seem like you’re in a bit of an anxiety spiral. It sounds like we’re probably similar in being “problem solvers by nature” and highly rational people (you didn’t say the part about rational, but it seems that way). For me, one of the most helpful things to do when I find myself in this situation is just to acknowledge what I’m feeling (like I have the wheel of emotions chart thing and pick words off that, and just sit with the feeling) and also acknowledge that I’m being irrational and it doesn’t make sense to problem solve when I’m in that state of mind.

      I know it sounds judgmental, but acknowledging that I’m being irrational kind of releases me from the stress of all those anxiety filled thoughts. It’s almost like saying, the things I’m feeling aren’t true and the situation isn’t as bad as it feels like it is. When you get out of the spiral, then you can reengage on the problem solving. Just don’t index too hard on finding a solution in your current state of mind- it’ll contribute to the spiral.

    • Anonymous

      So I relate to a lot of this. In short, I am struggling with infertility and when we were finally ready to buy a place the market went crazy due to COVID. I really struggled with our housing decision. Essentially there are two versions of my future – one with kids and one without. The housing decisions I would make with kids vs. no kids are radically different and I felt like it was a lose/lose.

      I get a sense from your post that you are frustrated because you did everything “right” – you were financially responsible, you saved money – and then COVID derailed your home buying plans. Basically, you wanted one life and thought it was achievable, and now you are going to have to make tradeoffs (e.g., have a kid and work and buy a better house, have no kids and keep working and buy a new house, etc. etc.) There isn’t a “solution” to this problem. Even if you do everything within your power to work towards something, unfortunately, it may not materialize.

      This is a terrible feeling and I say the following as a total hypocrite who complaints to my therapist each week about how angry I am that my carefully constructed life plans have gone awry. But I would take this as an opportunity to learn to think differently about your life.

      My therapist once told me that we all have a Plan A, and the only reason Plans B, C and D don’t seem as good is because we haven’t spent any time really thinking about what Plans B, C and D look like. And once we start really thinking about them/exploring them, they are often just as great as Plan A. There are lots of pieces of the puzzle to shift – you can move to a new city, you can get a new job, you can work part time, you can have a kid, you can not have a kid, you can sell your house. You should spend some time envisioning these other options.

    • Anon

      You have two different problems and at least one of them is fixable by selling the house.

    • Anonymous

      We bought in a hot market and bought a small house in a not perfect neighborhood. It was better than living in our apartment by a long shot, and we built equity that we were able to use later when we were able to afford a larger place in a better neighborhood. Don’t view this as a final decision that will impact the rest of your life.

    • Anonanonanon2

      Gently, you have absolutely no idea what you will want to do when you have a child. No one does until it happens. Also, a nanny is not the only option. I actually hated employing a nanny. There are plenty of lovely daycares out there that, bonus, are cheaper than a nanny! Also, millions and millions of women make having a kid and a job work. A friend was asking me about this recently and I put it this way: if you broke your leg, you’d figure it out, right? It’s kind of the same. You adapt and figure it out.

      Kids aside, there are still a lot of reasons to not become house poor!

      We have a house we don’t love and can afford way more (my husband bought this house when he was single/3 promotions ago) but there are some perks:
      1) A lot of peace knowing that, if one of us loses our job or gets severely ill, we can make our mortgage.
      2) extra money to GET OUT OF THE HOUSE! We don’t have to think twice to go to a fancy dinner in the city and book a sitter.
      3) We have so much equity
      4) We can afford to throw money at it!

      Since it sounds like you have the money- why don’t you work with a decorator? Having someone who could map out my house in 3D and measure/model the furniture and items they recommended went a long way in helping me accept our house for the next few years. I also take peace in knowing that I can take this furniture with me to the next house!

      Throw some money at weekend trips in fancy hotels nearby! It sounds like a change of scenery would do wonders!

      Hugs, hang in there, try to nap this weekend.

    • Anon

      I mean this in all kindness – a nicer house won’t make you happier. If you have bought below your means, congratulations are in order. You are now in a position to renovate or redecorate to make it your own. And you’re just much better off generally. I’m not going to lay out my important to me and tedious to you “how 2020 totally went off the rails” story, just suffice it to say that I ended up being extraordinarily grateful that we had been living well below our means. So take that house you’re not so thrilled you bought and make it your own. If you fear that it won’t be enough to do that, then make it your own but also with an eye to resale in just a few years. Make it your little nest, get comfortable, and then decide what you’d like the future to hold.

    • Hollis

      A lot of people have addressed the house issue so I will chime in on the child issue. I have 3 kids and after the kids, I did not have to “step off” anything at all. We have no family nearby, so we did some combo of nanny, daycare preschool, or after school care for several years and it was totally fine. The kids made great friends and their friends’ preschool friends’ parents are among our closest friends. I made income partner, now equity partner, and I now make about twice what I did when I started at BigLaw, even though I’m at a much smaller firm. My husband makes 4 times my salary. I’ve had the privilege of not working, of stepping back, etc. but I just didn’t because I’m too driven and I get a rush out of closing deals. Plus, we have to support my husband’s parents and my special needs sister financially, so I like being able to contribute to those financial obligations. You don’t need to worry about kids holding you back – you can have kids and have a career – and you need to expand your network to have friends/mentors who have similarly worked through these issues and have come out on the other side. There are a lot of us and many of us are on this board every day!

  12. Anonymous

    Aaahh, I just need to vent that there was a wildfire overnight not too far from me that was likely caused by multiple groups of people setting over fireworks, which are illegal here. People had to evacuate their homes and a firefighter was injured, but fortunately it wasn’t worse and it got under control. It’s still scary. I feel so maxed out on dealing with stupid people since March 2020 (or November 2016…) and now it feels even closer to home. I’ve seen the same thing camping/backpacking where people blatantly ignore the “NO FIRES!!!! DANGER!” signs even in bone-dry conditions.

    • anon

      I’m so sorry. I also live in the tinder box dry US West, where fireworks are most definitely illegal, but I hear them most nights this time of year. I wish we had more robust enforcement because fireworks pose such a threat to human life when you live in a tinder box.

    • Curious

      People can be really selfish and dumb. I admit I’m probably one of those people sometimes, but “setting fires in bone dry country” is a whoooole different level of clueless.

  13. Anon

    We are about to adopt two kittens but have never been cat owners. I am totally overwhelmed by the choices for litter boxes. Any cat owners here willing to share what works? Any other advice for newbies? Willing to spend some money for less hassle but probably not the five hundred dollar robot litter box. :)

    • anon

      I am an old school cat owner – I have had cats all my life and been scooping boxes for about 30 of those years. I use a cheap basic box with pine pellet litter. Absolutely nothing fancy and it works just fine!

      • Anon

        We use a plain plastic box but we bought a jumbo one for two cats. We use Tidy cat regular litter ( not special clumping) and Tidy cat liners- pine’s supposed to be good too. The liners are key for me- I usually don’t have to clean the box itself. The biggest thing is to scoop often- once or twice a day and I scoop the clumps of pee too.

      • anon at 10:14

        Oh! I forgot my absolute rule that you should have one box per cat, so with two kittens, two boxes.

    • Hazel

      Look for a litter box with high sides (so your cats don’t kick litter everywhere) but don’t splurge for an expensive one with all bells and whistles until you know what your cats will tolerate — mine wouldn’t use a covered box, for example, so my fancy self-cleaning one went unused. I ended up with the Luup Sifting Tray box, which I really like — it has 3 sifting trays that stack together and looks nicer than the basic scooping boxes, but it does take regular maintenance.

    • Anonymous Grouch

      Initially, get whatever they’ve been using so it’s familiar and easy for them. Get the same brand of litter if possible. Once they’re comfortable switch to what you prefer. We’ve had good luck with a simple covered littler box. It keep smells contained (you should still be scooping at least once per day) and our cats like the privacy.

    • Anon

      My cats would probably tolerate any litter, but I have bad allergies and asthma and couldn’t stand the pine stuff or anything with the slightest scent. We finally settled on Dr. Elseys, bought online, since I had a hard time finding truly unscented stuff in stores near me. With kittens, I’d start with a smaller box, but my cats got big, so we now have one of the biggest boxes you can find. The most important thing is to keep it clean. We’ve found that a litter locker makes it easy to scoop daily.

      • anon

        The Ace Hardware near us carries Dr. Elseys, you might be able to find it at a hardware store!

    • Anonymous

      I *LOVE* the Breeze litter system. I hate litter dust tracking around the house and the idea of them breathing it in. I’ve also seen some vets who don’t like litter robots because it’s never 100% sure that kitties aren’t going to get a foot stuck or whatever. But I’d transition them to whatever system you want when they are a bit older, and just start with whatever litter you can stand the scent of and that they can get in and out of (aw, tiny babies) for now.

      Here are also a bunch of unsolicited tips for new cat owners: 1) cats don’t like their water near their food, put it far away (I like to keep their water bowl in the bathroom, that way I can replace it easily every day; 2) a lot of cats will drink more out of one of those water fountain systems and it’s super important for cats to get lots of hydration because they naturally are not inclined to drink a lot (as with all things kitty – your cat may love it, your cat may have no interest, and there’s no predicting what they are going to like); 3) if the kitten scratches you or bites you, make an “ow!” sound, pull your hands away, and instantly put a kitty toy in their face instead; 4) unless one of the kittens is actually making the other one bleed or whatever, let them do their playing, even if there is light screaming involved; I’ve read that you can mess up their dynamics by interfering. My little one was greatly outsized by the bigger kitty, but I’d just try to distract the bigger one with toys when it seemed like things got too rough, not physically separate them. They are now best best friends (and she still occasionally gets dramatic and yells at him while playing… and then will immediately be the one to tackle him, it’s pretty cute).

      Good luck! Cats are the best, and I say this as someone who had no idea they were a cat person until they got two kittens in quarantine. They really changed my life, and I hope they bring you just as much joy and laughter.

    • Anon

      We have an Indiana Jones cat who digs like she’s looking for treasure, and a Maine Coon the size of a dog, so we needed giant high-sided boxes. The best we found are the “Frisco High Sided Cat Litter Box, Navy, Extra Large 24-in” from Chewy.

      When I have a foster litter, I use the disposable cardboard litter trays. Kittens aren’t big enough to climb over the big box lips, and they go constantly, so I need something easily-disposed of to retain my sanity. (If your kittens are adoptable, they are probably old enough that this isn’t an issue, though.)

    • No Face

      I’ve always had very, very, very basic litter boxes. For my next cat, I would prefer a basic covered box if he or she would accept it.

    • Anon

      Just get the basic plastic boxes. I have a covered one because it’s in my bathroom and my kid drops towels on top of it regularly (and top of litter box is less gross than in it!). If you don’t have this issue, many cats prefer an open one.

      I use worlds best cat litter — it’s corn based, flushable (and septic safe). It makes it super easy to just scoop once or twice a day when I’m in the bathroom doing my own business so the litter box stays clean. I’ve used this litter since 2007 in 7 different apartments and never had plumbing issues.

    • anonymous

      We made our own litter boxes out of large storage boxes by cutting an opening in the front. I keep the lid on the box to keep it covered. My cats don’t mind the lid. Since they are kittens, I would suggest getting a plain rectangular storage box. I use Cats Pride or Dr Elseys litter.

    • Not that Anne, the other Anne.

      We use high-sided semi-covered litter boxes and Dr. Elsey’s litter, with a litter mat in front of all boxes in case of exuberant scratching. We tried to slowly switch to one of the more “ecofriendly” litter brands and the cats went on a litter box strike, so back to Dr. Elsey’s we went. We scoop everything out every day and completely rinse out and refill about once a month (depending on when the more persnickety cat decides to pee on the litter mat to indicate to the housecleaning staff that attention is needed).

      If the kittens are very small, you may need to put temporary steps in so they can comfortably climb in and out of the box. Once they’re big enough, you can remove them. A friend who fosters kittens uses those rubber-lined plastic spice shelves because they’re washable and the rubber provides grip for tiny paws.

      Enjoy your tiny furry overlords!

    • OP

      Thanks so much! Very relieved to hear simple is better. I had suspected that may be the case.

    • Senior Attorney

      We just got two kitties last fall and we got the Nature’s Miracle High Sided Litter Box and they like it and it keeps the litter from going everywhere when they dig (and dig and dig!). I also got the Litter Genie for their poops and it works like a charm and I love it. For litter I love the Fresh Step Crystal litter. It’s expensive but there is NO smell and it desiccates the poops so they are easy to scoop and put in the litter genie for disposal periodically. Just make sure you stir it up each time you scoop. Also put the litter box on a mat to keep the litter contained.

    • Anon

      The key to a litter box is to scoop it all the time, yes multiple times in a day. All the bells and whistles are about scooping less and having it be somewhat ok, but honestly nothing takes the place of scooping it every time you see something, anything in there.

      I like the clumping litter from Fresh Step (advanced, multi cat) and I buy two boxes a month on auto delivery. Get the biggest box you can fit in your space, and the disposable liners are a pretty good idea too. Ours doesn’t have a lid, because again, seeing that something is in there and then scooping it is the key.

      • Anonymous

        Counterpoint – we have 2-3 cats (2 right now, 3 in the past) and I only scoop every 3 days or so. I swear by Everclean litter, and a covered box – the enclosure makes a big difference in containing smell and litter.

        • Anonymous

          PS – and we’ve also always just used one box. We live in an apartment, so we just don’t have that much room for multiple boxes. Ours is inside a bench in our entryway, which helps cut down on the litter tracking. I swear it doesn’t stink; I’ve very sensitive to the smell.

          • Oh no

            Oh honey, 2 cats, 1 box, scooped every three days? Your box stinks. Your houseguests are polite.

    • Anon

      Also, get a mat to go underneath that catches the extra litter off their feet. It can get everywhere, even with a top.

  14. Promotion discussions

    Do you tell your direct reports unprompted, when you’re trying to get them promoted? My (newly inherited) report is desperately overdue and I’m working on it. He’s not mentioned it, but the whole company is having discussions on this since a recent employee survey revealed we’re all fed up with less promotion opportunities, and he’s on a committee to discuss with HR- as am I. If I’m not successful in this he may feel even worse though. But i favor transparency..

    • anon

      As a direct report, I definitely appreciate this even if it’s unsuccessful. That also gives me information that I need to know to evaluate my career progress.

    • anon a mouse

      I favor transparency too, but you have to be willing to follow through and be transparent if you are not successful about why. My last boss was really good about advocating for me, but there were too many political factors above her that prevented a promotion. She was honest about how long it might take and I ended up leaving. I appreciated her candor.

    • A

      I would….

      1. Make it clear you’re invested in them
      2. They’ll step up more
      3. You can strategise together
      4. They know you’re not the bad guy if it doesn’t happen

    • Walnut

      Do you need any additional information to support the promotion? If so, I would disclose when you ask the direct report to put together some bullet points for you to take into your meeting with HR.

    • Ribena

      Yes, tell them. I’ve noticed that since I told my boss I had applied for a promotion elsewhere in our organisation (which I didn’t even get an interview for!) I’ve had more opportunities to get exposure in my current role, which is great and makes me feel very valued in my existing team.

    • anonshmanon

      As everyone said, go ahead and tell them. One caveat – if you are routinely dangling the promotion-carrot in front of people to motivate them, but follow-through is lacking (this could be your fault or higher ups preventing you) then you will develop a reputation for that. I was told last week by my supervisor that we should go for my promotion, but I have seen too many people at my org get their hopes up, give 120% and then get pushed out.

    • AFT

      Yes tell them so they know you’re in their corner, but also be transparent and pragmatic about opportunities. E.g., don’t just say “I’m trying to get you promoted” when you know it’s an uphill battle and unlikely to happen this year… instead say something like “I want to see you promoted and we can lay the groundwork by doing X, Y and Z this year, and I’m hopeful that next year or the year after you will get it.”
      There’s no downside in your direct report knowing that you’re pulling for them and think they deserve advancement.

    • anon

      Yes, I typically do and and am responsibly transparent in setting expectations (i.e., I’ll let them know how likely I think it is, although what I tell them is going to be a bit more conservative than my actual opinion just to manage expectations) I also tend to share a bit at the headline level (and not too many details) of what may make it more vs less likely. and if they’re interested, I’ll make suggestions on what they could to to improve their chances.

  15. Anon

    I started at a new firm (litigation associate) about 2 months ago. Since then, my city has fully reopened and the office fully reopened with it. However, the partners (2) I work for don’t come in. They told me explicitly they’re not coming in and don’t care if I come in either as long as the work is getting done. When I do come in, often I don’t really interact with anyone in person, and if I do it’s 30 seconds of small talk. I’m nervous about being noticeably absent all the time and making a bad impression. Not sure what I’m asking here, I guess if you were in my shoes how often would you work from home? I was going to go in today but the prospect of an extra hour of sleep, access to my fully stocked kitchen, and the option of working out in the middle of the day lured me into staying home…

    • Cat

      I would probably go in 2 days a week so that people know your face, and make an effort to do some laps of the office so you run into people.

      • Anon

        This exactly. Be happy that your office leadership is supportive of WFH by actions and words.

    • Anonymous

      I would reach out to an associate in your group who is coming in and ask if you can come in that same day and grab a coffee with him or her. No point of going in if there’s no additional gain.

      • Monte

        Disagree. The gain is a long term one. If you are new to the firm and don’t know anyone, you are completely dependent on those two partners. If they get hit by a bus or leave, you are unprotected. It is helpful to build a network at the firm beyond two individuals. Plus, it is just generally more pleasant to have a couple of work friends/allies/sounding boards closer to your own position. I think 2 days a week or so makes sense, even if you are not certain who is going to be there on those days.

        • Anonymous

          Um, that’s what I said? She should reach out to other people in the office (i.e., associates). I didn’t say anything about sticking with just two partners.

        • Anon

          I think you’re making the same point. Don’t go in just to sit in your office and fail to interact. Make it intentional.

        • Monte

          Sorry, should have been clearer. I don’t think it is worth it to go in *just* to meet associates, but they are a nice bonus if you are there. The point of going is to meet partners/decisionmakers who will know who you are so that your work is not just allocated by the two partners you already get work from.

    • Of Counsel

      While there is certainly value in coming in occasionally and meeting people in person a couple of points:

      (1) You are in litigation. Partners are going to judge you by the number of hours you bill and the quality of your work. (In which order depends on your firm). While there are some who care about face time, it will probably not be partners you are not working with.

      (2) Go in for associate events (meetings, CLEs, happy hours). But if your office culture does not support popping into peoples’s offices to say hi then it does not support popping in to say hi. If you find that even with effort you are just not having substantive interaction, stop worrying about physically going in to the office.

      (3) While the point about interacting with other partners so you are not completely reliant on two people is a good one, that does not do any good if the people in a position to give you work are not in the office or in with their doors closed.

      In your position, I go in about 1x per week. I try hard to be sure I set up lunch for that day and make the rounds to say hello to anyone with an open door but honestly most of our people are working from home so the networking aspect of that a is almost nonexistent.

    • Anom

      I used to work as a litigation associate (1st to 5th yr) for partners who either wfh most of the time or were in different states. But the face time that was most useful for me was with the associates more senior to me.

  16. Future Accountant?

    I’m considering a career move into accounting of some sort and would love some feedback from you wise women.

    I am currently in the non-profit world and work part-time (20-25 hours a week). My partner is in the same field and we are very committed to our geographic location. We see that 5ish years in the future we likely need some income to be coming from outside this field. Partner is full-time right now so we are thinking about how I can make a move to bring in income in a different way in the future. I would want to stay engaged in my first career and find it meaningful.

    For a long time I’ve had interest in financial planning/accounting/taxes. I do our taxes (not super complicated, but includes self-employment, a small business and household employer). I’ve enjoyed doing them by hand so that I understand the organizational flow of the return. I appreciate the concrete work of the taxes in contrast to the slow, hard-to-measure work of my day job.

    I interact with my organization’s finances, but I have zero formal training and haven’t taken a math class since freshman year of undergrad, though I was always a strong math student.

    It seems like there are two possible routes, one would be Enrolled Agent, which might mean some basic classes at the community college and then a prep course for the exams. The other would be knock out pre-requisites at the community college, then do a Masters in Accounting that includes CPA prep. As a person with a Masters degree from a name brand school, the second option seems “better” but I wonder if that’s pride rather than practicality.

    I’m not 100% on what I would want to do – I could see doing personal tax and accounting work, or working with small businesses in my area. Due to my nonprofit work, I have a large network locally and my current career offers some niche accounting opportunities. In my ideal world I would continue to maintain my part-time current work and add part-time accounting work, but I don’t know if that’s realistic. I’m used to the non-profit world where there are always lots of part-time jobs.

    Is this realistic? What education/credential route makes more sense?

    • Future Accountant?

      Thanks for reading my giant essay! This is my first working through this outside my partner and it shows.

    • Anon

      What is your current job (marketing, sales, admin,etc)? What is your Masters in? I work in Corporate Finance and Accounting for big companies, which sounds a little different than what you’re looking for. Which path I recommend depends on the experience and degrees you already have.

      • Future Accountant?

        There’s not a good way to answer your questions without revealing personal information. I have supervisory experience and do a lot of communication work. My Masters is super niche and not at all related to anything math/accounting/business. Assume zero background. I have been involved in my organization’s finances at multiple jobs purely out of personal interest and as the “program” person who interacts with the budget and translates to the other program people. Does that help at all?

        • Anon

          Hmm. So I think I’d encourage you to find ways to work in Finance/ Accounting first before making the commitment to a degree or test. You’ve likely got the basic skills down – leadership and communication and business acumen (thigs like budget and financial reporting) – but need to develop the analytical thinking and specific accounting/finance principles.

          Can you find a way to work in finance in your organization? Or ask if you can help work on a big project? Explain that you’ve always been interested in finance/ accounting and would like to get to know more about it. Helping on a big project, while being vocal about your desire to work with them, goes a long way to getting a chance to join the team.

          If that doesn’t work, can you find an audit role connected to your current industry/specialty? Oftentimes a corporate auditing team will hire 1-2 people with the business or technical background so they can design better audits.

          Another option is to look for a role that combines finance and your current role. If you’re in IT, maybe you’re on the Finance IT team. If you’re in Marketing, look for marketing finance. If you’re in Sales, maybe look for sales accounting. Basically find a way to be really good at half the role so you can learn the finance/ accounting half.

      • Anon

        +1, but with the caveat of when you’re in non-profit and need to make more money, go to the profit sector not more school. Also, could you go full time and earn more. The answer to earning more is usually going higher up the ladder and into the right sector, not more school.

    • Anonymous

      If you need more money the answer isn’t spending money on education with a nebulous plan to do personal taxes and work with non profits. That’s seasonal and not lucrative and most normal people do just fine with HRBlock or Turbo tax.

      I think you need to look at the skills you have now and focus on how you can turn them into a full time job.

      • Future Accountant?

        Thanks, all. This feedback is helpful. Going full-time or climbing the ladder in current industry are not options without relocating. We do not need more money now, but are trying to anticipate future shifts and get any necessary training ahead of time. It might be that we simply wait until that shift happens and then one/both of us makes a move to the for-profit sector. Or have funds available for some re-training at that point in time.

        • Anonymous

          Use this time to figure out what kind of better paying jobs you could do without training and build a network

    • Curious

      Lots of corporations have business analyst or financial analyst roles that could use the skills you reference and would not require a degree. You might come in at a more junior level than your career tenure suggests, but I bet you’d make quite a bit more! And doing math for a living is fun.

      • MechanicalKeyboard

        I agree with this. A lot of business analyst roles require a degree in “anything” rather than a specific area. Your background in “communication work” may be helpful as communication skills and the ability to target messages for specific clients are important for most BA roles.

    • Anonymous

      If you want to stay in the nonprofit field, consider fundraising (Development) – it pays better. Or maybe becoming a Finance Director. If the latter is of interest, I would try to do some informational interviewing at nonprofits in your network to find out how the Finance staff got into it. I work at a non-profit arts organization, and I’m pretty sure most of our finance staff started out studying art. Somewhere along the way they obviously learned more about accounting, but you might not need THAT much school to get started.

    • CPA Lady

      The accounting field is incredibly varied and flexible and I would definitely recommend it as a sort of “sure thing”, especially once you get a few years of experience. What you think you want now is probably not going to be what you think you want once you get into the field, so I wouldn’t be too attached to any one vision of your future.

      Accounting was a second career for me, so I did everything I’m about to tell you in my late 20s. I’d suggest you start out by take accounting 101 and 102 (make sure you get the kind of credits that transfer) at a community college. Then go through a temp agency to get a part time bookkeeping gig and see how you like it.

      The spectrum of available jobs start with low to moderate paying bookkeeping and clerk level jobs (accounts payable and receivable, payroll, etc) that you can do with just an associates degree. If you want to make a lot of money and have this be a real full time career change thing, that’s the only scenario where I’d consider suggesting you do the CPA route. For this, each state has different requirements. Mine involved having x number of hours of business classes (which is defined very loosely and includes computer science, math, finance, marketing, business, econ — so you probably already have some of these) and x number of hours of accounting classes. You do not need to get an accounting degree if you’re going for the CPA, but you probably do if aren’t. I have a BA in a liberal arts topic and then took the business and accounting classes at my local community college and state U as a non degree seeking student. I then took the CPA exam using becker as my test prep course. The whole process including classes, CPA exam, etc cost about $10k ten years ago in a LCOL state. A full degree or masters would have cost a huge amount more. Time wise, this took a couple of years for me because I had basically zero business classes. I also took the CPA exam over the course of year, studying three hours per day. It was a massive time commitment.

      There is a vast variety of job options in the tax prep field, anything from working at a small local office to a large multi national. Typically, the larger the firm the more wretched the hours and the more potential for making buckets of money either in the firm or when you leave for an industry (industry= working for a company rather than a public accounting firm) job. I started at a large regional firm and then switched to a much smaller firm. Not all accountants in public accounting firms have their CPA, but it is typically required if you want to get promoted past a certain level. A lot of people start out in public accounting and then switch to a particular industry, some going to work for their favorite clients. But you don’t have to take this path. You can go straight into industry if you’d like. Going into public accounting, I was worried that I was going to be this old lady (haha) in there with a bunch of 23 year olds, but there were a number of people who had switched over to accounting as a second career.

      You can definitely work a traditional part time schedule as a bookkeeper or possibly even a staff accountant in industry, but if you do tax, your only “part time” option would be working seasonally, which is more like 60-80 hours a week Feb-April and Aug-Oct than it is 20 hours a week year round. And seasonal tax people typically start by working full time for a few years to prove themselves before switching to a seasonal schedule. That said, you can make a ton of money if you’re good. It’s a pretty great gig.

      • Hollis

        CPA Lady – I always enjoy your posts here, but this very thoughtful and detailed response to the OP’s question epitomizes the very best of what I see posted on this board. You are amazing!

      • Future Accountant?

        I don’t know if you’ll see this but thanks CPA Lady. You’ve given me more to think about. Some job shadowing and then Accounting 101 and 102 would be super easy to do for only a few hundred bucks. Many of the comments have assumed that my org is very large. We are a staff of 5 with a volunteer treasurer…but the treasurer is a recently-retired CFO who started in accounting. I think I’ll take her for coffee sometime soon and pick her brain.

    • Walnut

      It sounds like you would benefit from some job shadowing. Maybe reach out to your area college accounting department to establish some contacts?

      As CPA lady said, accounting is such a varied field. If you like income taxes, you may want to explore indirect tax as well.

  17. anon

    I feel like this is a weird me-problem with denim, but I’m curious if anybody else has noticed this. Supposedly, straight legs are supposed to be universally flattering. I feel like they take me straight into frump-a-dump territory. I can wear skinnies. I can do bootcuts and flares. But there is something about the straight-leg style that is neither here nor there, and it doesn’t look good on me! In case it’s relevant, I am curviest through the hips and thighs (not so much the booty). I am always curious about where these “universally flattering” rules come from, because wrap dresses are a disaster on me, too.

  18. Anon

    I finally have the space and money to build the home office-slash-library I’ve dreamed of since childhood, with a wall full of bookcases…and I just had an eye exam that made me realize I desperately need an e-reader so I can enlarge fonts. I can’t decide whether to laugh or cry.

      • No Face

        I get large print books from the library frequently, even though I can read regular print just fine. So soothing after a long day of screen-staring!

    • Anon

      I feel your pain. I love browsing bookstores but cannot read physical books any more because being able to enlarge font and increase/decrease brightness on the screen has been a game-changer for me. I was getting headaches after reading for awhile and then figured out that an e-reader is no longer optional.

      Books are still pretty to look at, though, so if you want the library, you should build it.

      • Anon

        Do people truly hit bifocals age, and just replace their entire library with bigger versions of the same books? Seems unlikely.

        • Anon

          I have bifocals (progressives, actually) and a physical library. I just get the reading part stronger than the minimum I need. It works for me.

        • anon

          Of course not but there’s no reason the OP can’t keep their current books and add to their collection with large print books as they like.

        • Anon

          LOL no of course not, but you can get large print books when you acquire new ones.

    • Anonymous

      Also, get a really good reading light! I recommend Ottlite daylight bulbs. You could even get an embroidery style lamp with magnifying glass for favorite small-print books.

    • Anon

      Someone I dated once made fun of me for collecting “unreadable books.” My bookshelves are full of things like 50s HS textbook about working in an office, 20s book of recipes for your refrigerator, 80s guide to stores and restaurants in NYC, etc. If you love books and have the space, it’s ok to have books-as-objects on your shelves while most of your actual reading material is on your e-reader or from the library! I buy lots of books but I also use the library a lot too.

  19. Anonymous

    Please help me pick an office chair! I’m going nuts reading comparisons. Does anyone have a Steelcase, and if so, what kind and is it worth it? I’m pretty sure my office had Aerons, and they were fine but not worth $1k+ (I don’t think I want to go with refurbished for reasons not worth getting into). Does anyone have an office chair they adore?

    • Anon

      Steelcase Leap2, recommended by the hive. Love it! I am short and small, and the too-wide arm rests on most office chairs aggravate neck and shoulder pain. This chair has armrests that include a width adjustment and it makes all the difference. I treated my similarly sized daughter to the same chair when she began WFH and her back and neck issues have improved with the change. I also have lower back issues (I was mowed down in a hit and run accident), and it is good for my back all around. With office closures and cutbacks, you may be able to find a nearly new chair at a good deal.

    • Anonymous

      Hon Ignition 2.0…. purchased it for my home office. It’s a great chair for the price point ($300). A $1000 chair might be nicer, but not 3x better.

    • Anonymous

      I ponied up for the Aerons and although the price is eye watering I haven’t regretted it one bit. My body is no longer in pain and I am more productive.

  20. anon

    I am ready to lose my mind. My dear 18-year-old cat is pooping outside the litterbox. Like, he’s squatting in the middle of the living room floor. The box has been cleaned and has low sides to make it easier. He’s still peeing in there fine (for now). The vet can’t find anything wrong with him and sort of shrugged it off as old-cat problems. But seriously, it is really gross. I don’t have a good place to move the box (clearly, the living room floor is not a real option). So what do I try next??

    • Anonymous

      I have no good advice because this is my current situation also. I just roll with it and keep cleaning supplies handy. I close all doors to rooms so there are limited places where I will find poop. All my rugs are mashine washable as is my couch cover. Shrug.

    • Anon

      A different vet.
      Cats’ behavior doesn’t alter like this without good reason.

    • anonymous

      Did the vet do any bloodwork or take a fecal sample? It is possible kitty could have arthritis or joint issues. For my elder kitty, my vet suggested a small dose of gabapentin on a daily basis which helps calm them down.

      • anon

        Yeah, they took a fecal sample. He is already on a supplement for arthritis. I may try putting training pads on the areas where he likes to go and see if that helps. At least cleanup would be easier?

    • Anon

      Yes, I would consider a second opinion. Also my cat’s peeing issues were resolved with a daily Composure treat — it seemed woo to me, but it works! In the meanwhile, I would put a puppy pad on the area he prefers to at least make the clean up easier…

    • Go for it

      Buy a new litter box: I have had more than one cat pull this darling maneuver once the bottom of the pan has been really scratched up, and poof, resolved~ Who knows why !!

  21. DC orthodontist?

    Kind of a random question, but does anyone have recommendations for an orthodontist in DC or Arlington? I had braces as a kid, but didn’t wear my retainer long enough and want to looke in to what my options are.

  22. AnonHR

    Lawyers, could you help me prep for a big job opportunity? I’m interviewing with several Partners at an AMLaw 50 firm this week for a staff position in HR. Are there any specific questions that you think it would be helpful for me to ask or any unique questions (beyond standard job interview) that you think I might be asked to respond to? Thank you!

    • Anonymous

      Have you worked in a law firm before? Because it’s a weirder place than most businesses since the partners are owners (at most) and not employees and therefore rule the roost and aren’t totally beholden to HR norms.

      • AFT

        +1. I’ve never worked in HR at a law firm (only as a lawyer), but work closely with HR professionals as an employment lawyer (now in-house).
        Large Law Firm HR is very different from HR generally. I would go in with the understanding that your average AmLaw 50 firm is going to be highly dysfunctional when compared to most other companies. HR/people management is generally not very valued at law firms, compared to hours billed/tenure/book of business, and leaders become leaders because of skills unrelated to people management.

      • Anon

        This. I’d also carefully consider this move if you want to work for “employers of choice” after this move. Law firms are the exact opposite. You’ll likely be doing old school fake performance management to cover up pushing people out and defending bad behavior for rainmakers. Cannot imagine hiring someone at my progressive company who came from a law firm HR background.

      • anon

        +1 I’m a lawyer so this is not meant as a dig to lawyers but law firms are weird weird places and my friends/family are constantly completely baffled by the stories about what goes on at law firms.

      • Anonymous

        This. In every big firm I’ve worked in, the HR department handled benefits and staffing but the hiring/firing/investigations stuff involving lawyers was handled by an experienced lawyer with no book who had been groomed in the ways of law firms.

    • OP

      This is all super helpful! I worked for a year at a law firm after college (and decided not to be a lawyer), so that’s probably a data point. I’ve talked to a few partners in different big law firms (and have enjoyed many of the discussions here on the board) so I’m not totally blind to the dysfunction, but it’s telling that it’s immediately where this group went. I’d be responsible for staff and attorney HR for the most part (recruiting is carved out). I hadn’t considered the branding if I wanted to move on afterwards – that’s really good to consider.

  23. Anon

    Since this board leans fairly wealthy, as you’ve gotten wealthier or more settled in your life/career, do you find yourself more or less empathetic to others? I go both ways on it. Like I often think – wow a $300 or $800 bill out of the blue, I feel bad for regular people how would they do this. But raise my taxes for universal pre k or whatever and it’s like no way I’m supporting this.

    • anon

      I guess I would ask you back whether this attitude has changed over time/as you achieved higher incomes, or whether just the amount of attention you paid to certain things like taxes has changed.
      I am a privileged middle class white kid. I live below my means, so I have significant assets even without a six figure income. But I am aware that I had a ton of help – I seamlessly transitioned from a time where a surprise $800 medical bill would have been picked up by my parents and a time where I would be able to handle it myself.
      I think the rich should contribute more to society, and I think government institutions can do more good than religious charity organizations. I should pay more taxes. Especially if there were a guarantee that higher tax revenue would actually arrive in schools, or the postal service, or better broadband for everybody, I would be very happy to pay higher taxes. I don’t think that my increasing income has changed these beliefs too much. Learning more about different socioeconomic backgrounds actually gave me more empathy over the years, compared to teenage me who only understood my narrow experience of my own family, where frugality was more visible than privilege.

    • Anonymous

      No, I’ve been an empathetic person who believes in paying taxes to support children’s education since basically the first day I was old enough to think about others and how government works. I don’t know that pitying poorer people when you get a big bill that you can easily pay off is really considered empathetic when the idea of paying for universal pre-k makes you scoff. And I’m not nearly as wealthy as a lot of people on this board. Yikes.

    • Anonanonanon2

      I’m not more or less empathetic, but I am fine with my taxes going to help others. However, it has made me more resentful that the super-super wealthy don’t pay taxes. We are very well-off, but why should almost a third of our money go to taxes while billionaires pay none? As my household enters higher tax brackets, I get much more resentful of those who are wealthy and don’t pay. I will happily pay a bit more to help those that need it, once the system is fixed and the uber-wealthy are paying their fair share.

      • Anon

        Yeah, and to use that as an example…OP do you ever look at yourself and ask “why am I such an asshole?”

    • anon

      Uhh, hmm.

      I feel like I’ve become more empathetic as I’ve become more settled, wealthier, and aware of how the world actually works, as opposed to how it should.

    • Anon

      “Taxes are what we pay for a civilized society”, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Compania GeneralDe Tabacos De Filipinas v. Collector of Internal Revenue, 275 U.S. 87, 105 (1927).

      • summer slipper

        +1

        Try to do a bit more research before you decide how you would support something like universal pre-k. The cost of that wonderful program would be negligible to you, and many studies done by economists have shown that it would ultimately pay for itself and show long term cost savings for society.

        There was a great This American Life podcast about a conservative state (?Kansas) that decided to fund universal pre-K and the effect on the children/society and cost savings was incredible.

        It’s too bad our society doesn’t think more about the long term gain, and have more empathy, and instead makes reflexive and often short-sited decisions thinking only about what is the best benefit for themselves. And they are often wrong!!

  24. Anonymous

    Any good travel duffle recommendations? Need it to be equivalent to a regular size roll on carry on bag, with wheels.

  25. Anon

    I have a 100% remote, work-from-anywhere job, and I am planning a trip to NYC and Boston this September to see friends (and hopefully a Broadway show or two!). Thinking about going for two weeks: 1.5 weeks in NYC and the remainder of the time in and around Boston. Where would you stay? Where would you work?

    I am feeling decidedly anti-AirBnB after the conversations here last week, but I don’t know the hotel scene very well in either city. Ideally I’d be somewhere that had a lobby or other social spaces that were conducive to working during the afternoons.

    I’ve been to both cities multiple times and have seen all the major sights, but I’d love recommendations for where to stay and off-the-beaten path neighborhoods, cafes, etc. I love art, history, dining (but not super expensive, scene-y places), culture, shopping…

    • Anon

      I’d just stay in a hotel. Two weeks isn’t long enough that you really need an apartment. In Manhattan there’s a residence inn on 48th between Lexington and third that’s close enough to Broadway shows etc. I haven’t stayed there but friends have and liked it. Will respond with a link.

      Not sure about Boston but for 1/2 a week any hotel would be fine I’m sure.

    • roxie

      1.5 weeks is too long for a hotel for me personally – if you don’t want ABNB I’d consider splitting it up to explore different neighborhoods?

      Maybe a Williamsburg or another Brooklyn neighborhood mixed with a Soho or Union Square hotel? The Seaport is fun these days, and there are some good hotels down there too!

      • Anon

        Yeah, I’d want my own kitchen if I was staying in one place for 1.5 weeks.

    • Senior Attorney

      YMMV but the last time I was in the area it was for a wedding in Jersey City and we stayed at the Doubletree Hotel in Jersey City. MUCH cheaper than hotels in Manhattan, and we had an amazing view of the skyline. The PATH station is just a short walk away and you can get into the City easily, plus there were nice places to eat right in the area we were staying. (Plus fun fact: no sales tax on clothes in New Jersey!)

      If you really want to be off the beaten path, check it out!

    • Anonymous

      This is a really good time to get tickets for many Broadway shows that are normally hard to see! I’m going to see Bruce Springsteen and David Byrne and am pumped!

      If you haven’t spent much time in the outer boroughs, maybe this would be a good opportunity to stay in Brooklyn or Queens? If you are in a more residential neighborhood, you will probably find more coffee shops that people like to work in.

    • Anonymous

      In Boston, I would recommend the Hyatt at Faneuil Hall which is in an extremely walkable area and has great ratings at good price. Haven’t actually stayed there, but I’ve done a ton of research for visiting people (and I live very nearby so I can speak to the walkability). You’ll be right in the middle of all of the historical sites, lots of bars and restaurants, and like a <5 min walk to the aquarium (which is also where duck tours and whale sighting trips leave from, if you like doing cheesy tourist stuff).

      • South End

        Faneuil Hall is on the beaten path so to speak and quite touristy.

        I would recommend the South End in Boston. There are amazing restaurants, cafes and beautiful streets to walk. Some of my favorite restaurants are Coppa, Metropolis Cafe, Truro, Myers and Chang and Flour. There are art galleries and there is an outdoor farmers market on Sundays called SoWa with food and hand made items.

    • AnonMPH

      I know everyone on here was hating on AirBnB, but I’ve done AirBnb for most of my extensive personal travel for the last 6 or 7 years and love it. Particularly in cities like NYC, you get to play pretend at living in the place, get to know your own little neighborhood, etc. If you’re a relatively savvy online shopper you can tell from the verified hosts, number of reviews, and reading the reviews carefully if the AirBnb is going to be great or weird. That way you have a living room in your own little apartment to work from during the day, you can keep some basic stuff to eat for breakfast/lunch in a fridge and use the kitchen for some lite meal prep.

  26. anon

    Today is one of those days when little things get you down – my scar after laparoscopy (ovarian cyst) is in the healing process, but in the stage when it is firm and sensitive and needs a lot of massages (like having a 10cm cut wouldn’t be enough) and I fear (probably irrationally) I will end up with deep scar tissue and adhesions, AND had two new cavities found during dental hygiene (despite intense dental hygiene regime). Has anyone done PT for scar management and if so, is 8w after surgery too soon?

    • Anonanonanon2

      I had PT for a broken pelvis after a C-section, and the PT integrated scar management into it. It helped a lot. Maybe try googling C-section scar management, just because I’m sure there are a lot of handouts and resources from approved sources out there.
      She had me rub it, then kind of pinch it to ensure it stayed separate from the lower layers, and (gently) rub different fabrics on it. I started earlier than 8 weeks, so I don’t think that’s too soon!

      • Anin

        Thank you! Will make an appointment. I have been massaging and pinching as soon as stitches were out.

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