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Updated: Oct 8, 2021 342 Comments · by

Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Wrap-Front Blouson Top

The Personal Shopper (TPS) | ·

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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

A wrap top is such a versatile piece to have on hand, and this print from Loveapella is just gorgeous. I would wear this with trousers or a pencil skirt for in-office days or paired with leggings and a long cardigan on a work-from-home day.

This azalea/plum print would really pop on a videoconference, although the other two prints (navy/burgundy and marsala/olive) would be great, too. It also comes in a solid burgundy.

The top is $33.60, marked down from $48, at Nordstrom. It comes in sizes 1X–3X.

This Vince Camuto top is available in regular sizes XS–XXL; it's $79 at Nordstrom and comes in two floral prints.

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Sales of note for 9.16.24

Sales of note for 9.16.24

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About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. Anonamoose

    Since the hive always has great book suggestions, I thought this might be a fun Friday topic: What fictional book had a profound impact on you or is one you think of often in life? I’m in a funk and would love to read something that others found inspiring and impactful. TIA!

    • Ribena

      Station Eleven, and North & South, are the two big ones for me. It probably helps that I read them both the year I turned 21, when I was studying abroad – a year that made me.

      • Anokha

        Station Eleven is one of my all-time favorite book, although I don’t know if I would call it inspiring. I’m particularly prone to rumination (“What if I had done XYZ, and how would my life be different?”), so “The Midnight Library” really scratched an itch for me and is a book I’ve thought about for months now.

        • Anon

          I hates The Midnight Library. It felt like a cheesy self-help book disguised as a novel.

          • Anon

            Yeah, I wasn’t a fan of Midnight Library either. I thought Haig’s How to Stop Time a much better, less pretentious approach to the same concept.

          • Is it Friday yet?

            +1 I thought it was trite, predictable, a bit condescending, and not all that well written.

          • Anon

            Matt Haig’s twitter presence is even worse. He’s so in love with himself and thinks he’s God’s gift to readers. It’s insufferable.

      • Cat

        oh gosh I made the mistake of bringing that book on a beach vacation and was sitting there on my lounge chair sobbing. I am not usually one to actively express myself at movies, shows, books, etc (like I will find something funny but don’t typically laugh out loud etc) but I was a MESS in the best way.

    • Ellen

      I loved reading the book by Kurt Vonnegut titled “Breakfast of Champions”. It is a very quick read and it has his illustrations in it. Grandma Leyeh gave me her copy after she read it and she said that it would not take me to long to read it. She was right. It taught me that there are all kinds of people out there and some are OK and others are a-holes, which Vonnegut pictures with an asterik (*). There were alot of asteriks in the book that was the code for a-holes! Here’s a summary for those to busy to read it:

      Kurt Vonnegut’s Breakfast of Champions follows Kilgore Trout, a little-known science fiction writer, and Dwayne Hoover, a mentally ill car salesman, and their chance meeting at an arts festival in the American Midwest. Kilgore earns his living installing aluminum storm windows but spends most of his time writing. He doesn’t consider himself a real artist, however, and while he is the author of over one hundred novels and two thousand short stories, he doesn’t bother to tell anyone that he is a writer. Most of Kilgore’s work is published in pornography magazines, and he never keeps carbon copies of his writing, which he claims to “detest.”

        • Anonymous

          I read it about 10 years ago based on a “it’s my favorite book of all time” rec from a friend. I liked it (wasn’t blown away), but since then, I’ve heard from several other people who LOVE it. You’re not alone!

    • Anonymous

      I know this isn’t what you asked but I can’t say that any fiction has really impacted my life that deeply. However I read the works of Peter Singer in university and it changed my whole outlook on life. If it weren’t for him and his books I can say with some confidence that I probably would be a bad person and I absolutely would not have my career.

    • Anonymous

      It’s an oldie – but I will forever and always view A Wrinkle in Time as this book for me. I read it countless times as a child, and I still get all the same feelings as an adult.

        • Anon

          Me too! No one ever talks about A Ring of Endless Light! I remember certain scenes so vividly.

        • Vicky Austin

          I LOVE A Ring of Endless Light!!! (Obviously.) I have also been deeply, deeply affected by a lot of L’Engle’s stand alone works (Certain Women, The Love Letters, Camilla).

      • buffybot

        Agree completely, although I’d say it’s generally true for all of L’Engle’s work. Read all of them over and over again and something about the themes of kindness and fundamental human decency and family just stay with me like a warm blanket.
        I also feel the same way about early Barbara Kingsolver (Bean Trees and Animal Dreams).

      • Anonymous

        Yes to A Wrinkle in Time, and Margaret Mahy’s The Changeover, both of which I first read at 12.

      • Anon

        The Arm of the Starfish is the Madeline L’Engle book I remember most vividly. The scene where the little girl vanishes on the plane scared the cr*p out of me when I was a kid. Probably did not help that I was a little girl on a plane when I read it.

    • Anon

      Jane Eyre. Something about being able to be alone and choose that even when you’ve had true love was really powerful to me when I read it at 13.
      More recently The Great Believers and the romance novels of Courtney Milan and Sherry Thomas. I think these really impressed upon me the idea of figuring out yourself even when your relationships are messy and intense.

    • Carrots

      I finished “The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue” earlier this year and just had it sitting out on a table for a week and would randomly just need to stare at it and think about what I had just read.

      • Anon

        Hamnet is heartbreaking. I also loved her memoir I Am, I Am, I Am about 17 times she cheated death. It sounds like kind of a hokey premise but the stories were beautiful.

    • anon a mouse

      Pillars of the Earth. Whenever I’m having a rough day, I think, “at least I’m not building a cathedral by hand in medieval times!”

    • Anon

      A Little Life. It is a challenging, intense topic but incredibly well written and I think a lot about how it changed how I thought about trauma and mental illness

      • Anonymous

        I really liked much of that book, but I also eventually felt that the author was just creating an *rgy of pain for Jude to a point that was no longer believable. The writing on grief, however, had me in tears. It was spot-on.

        • Anon

          Yes, I’ve heard it described as trauma p0rn and I think that’s pretty accurate. The writer’s prose is beautiful and I had a hard time putting the book down, but I also don’t really recommend it to others because it also stretches the limits of believability for me.

    • pugsnbourbon

      I’m thinking about books I’ve read more than once, or that I’ve underlined certain parts of:
      – Parasites Like Us by Adam Johnson
      – The People of the Book by Geraldine Brooks
      – Cold Mountain by Charles Frazier

    • Anonymous

      The World According to Garp and Cider House Rules by John Irving. The undertones of women empowerment really inspired me at a young-professional stage of my life.

    • Cornellian

      It’s meant for teenagers, honestly, but Sophie’s World is a great introduction to philosophy and a fun read. It was helpful to me in understanding how other people think and what my intrinsic preferences/biases were. It’s a quick read.

    • Anon

      The Life of Pi by Yann Martel. It helped me come to terms with why people are religious when all I was seeing was the harm from religion.

      • Anonymous

        This has been on my list forever but not because I know ehat it is about. Sounds like I need to move it up in priority.

    • Anon

      Jane Austen’s Persuasion and Antigone by Sophocles. I reread both every year, both are about the limitations of listening to the advice/rules of others when it goes against your own inclinations/morals.

      • Anonymous

        You might enjoy Home Fire by Kamila Shamsie, which is a modern retelling of Antigone

    • anon

      Hanya Yanagihara’s A Little Life and A Tale for the Time Being by Ruth Ozeki are two books that I continue thinking about long after I finished reading them (it’s been years). Both are pretty dark, though.

      • JoJo

        I LOVE A Tale for the Time Being. I think about it a lot, and why does no one else love it?!

      • Anone

        Someone here said A Little Life is trauma p*rn. Would you say the same about A Tale for the Time Being? It looks good but I cannot handle that level of tragedy.

    • ThirdJen

      Anna Karenina. I reread about once a year and spend a lot of time thinking about how effortlessly Tolstoy captured character and the human experience, sometimes in very few words. Every time I read it I come away with a different view on the story.

    • Anonymous

      Gone with the Wind. It taught me a lot about how societies cling to myths and legends, how works of fiction can shape worldviews, and how racism builds and gets reinforced. It’s also a damn good read.

    • Anon

      Anything by Ann Patchett has always really stuck with me. Also One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich and Love in the Time of Cholera are ones I’ve read a dozen times. I don’t know that they’re inspiring necessarily, just very good storytelling.

    • anon

      A Canticle for Leibowitz
      In the Hand of Dante
      The Last Battle (won’t resonate if you haven’t read the rest of the Chronicles of Narnia, though)

      • RILawyer

        The Remains of the Day is one of my all time favorite. I am a huge fan if Ishiguro in general but that one is by far his best IMO.

    • Senior Attorney

      Just recently, The Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson was both impactful and inspiring. (But you have to get past the super-harrowing first chapter!)

    • Curious

      I really love the Broken Earth series by NK Jemisin. It changed how I think about a lot of fundamental social concepts and is also an amazing story.

    • Vicky Austin

      Let’s see…
      Agree with lots of L’Engle. I also often think of Rilla of Ingleside, the final book in the Anne series by L. M. Montgomery. It reads well as a stand-alone if you don’t want to bother with the other seven, heh, and I find new strength from it every time. I also think the Lord of the Rings is good for this (small everyday folk keep the darkness at bay, etc.).
      Still Alice by Lisa Genova (I read this when babysitting for an English teacher colleague of my parents when I was much too young for it, and I have never forgotten it.)
      The Pull of the Stars by Emma Donoghue is lovely.
      Also, you specified fiction but I’m going to shout out a few examples in other genres that helped me out of funks – Mary Oliver’s poetry, Tiny Beautiful Things by Cheryl Strayed, Wintering by Katherine May, and Stir by Jessica Fechtor. Hope you feel better soon!

    • Anone

      The Sympathizer – one of the best books I ever read.
      Never Let Me Go – often think about that book.

    • Momofthree

      I was very impacted by a lot of YA with strong female characters. Tamara Pierce and Ann Rinaldi were two of my favorite authors. It showed how women can be powerful and successful in their own entirely different ways.

      Ender’s game is also a book I find myself rereading periodically.

      The “granfalloon” concept from Vonnegut’s cats cradle is also one that has stuck with me over the years.

      • Liz

        LOVE Tamara Pierce. I reread Trickster’s Choice and Trickster’s Queen this past year – just as good as I remembered!

  2. Anon

    What is a good first date outfit for the fall and winter if we’re meeting for drinks at an outdoor bar? In the summer I usually wear a sundress and sandals but I’m never sure what to wear in the fall and winter that’s relatively casual but still date-like. I live in DC and am in my mid 30s if that’s relevant.

    • Cat

      So from someone who doesn’t like sweater dresses (so itchy! so clingy in the wrong places!)… what I wear for cold-weather dates is usually either (1) jeans with cute sneakers and a slouchy v-neck sweater, or (2) black leggings (faux leather) with lace-up low-wedge ankle boots or cute sneakers that are also black, with a lower-cut cami and a wrap sweater that covers my butt.

      • ChiAnon

        Just wanted to mention here that I used to hate sweater dresses until I bought a silk slip to wear under them! That takes care of the clinging.

    • Anon

      Men usually aren’t as cognizant of fashion as women, so I would wear something like a sweater dress with boots. Cute, date-like, comfy.

      • Senior Attorney

        Men “read” dresses as “fancier” than pants in almost all circumstances so I’d say a sweater dress is the winter equivalent of a sundress.

    • Anon

      Jeans, well-fitting sweater, pumps or cute flats. Agree men don’t care about fashion or what’s on trend so I’d wear something you feel comfortable in and looks good regardless of whether other women might think it looks dated. I’d avoid sneakers and the moto style boots in favor of more feminine looking footwear even though they’re trendy now.

    • Anonymous

      Jeans and a low cut sweater. Jeans and a cute top. A dress with sleeves. Leather jacket.

    • Anon

      Slip dress + comfy oversized sweater in the same color range for a monochrome look

  3. Anon

    Does anyone know anything about buying environmentally friendly rugs? I need a new 9×12 rug and am looking for something that is made from natural materials without a lot of extra chemicals but also isn’t crazy expensive.

    • Anonymous

      Antique wool? I recently purchased an amazing 8*10 deep teal/blue rug for $100 off a second-hand site, I went to pick it up and it was from a lovely heritage estate.

    • Anon

      Check antique and estate dealers. I think there are people who specialize in this sort of thing. PatchArtsCarpet on Etsy looks promising.

    • Anonymous

      I don’t know the relative levels of being environmentally friendly, but there is a company called rug source that I have now purchased 5 large area rugs from that sells a huge number of vintage rugs. With the first rug I purchased actually talked to the owner about his business for a little while, and the majority of the rugs come from Turkey and are about 40-50 years old, and are 100% wool. They are also much cheaper than you would think they would be. Four of our five rugs are these older, 100% wool rugs and they look brand new, even though they’ve been subject to intense toddler abuse and spills the last few years. I’d generally rather buy a vintage than buying new.

    • Anon

      There are plenty of 9×12 rugs in the world already! They are Persian rugs made of wool. I usually search for tribal or Shiraz rug as that’s my style. Check it out.

      • brokentoe

        Is there a quick and dirty reference piece or website that can help explain the differences in styles? I, too, am in the market for vintage rugs but I don’t know the language and/or what to look for.

        • Anonymous

          I’m a crazy old antique lady and know all the terms but I still just search generic terms on FBMP, Craigslist etc because almost always the seller has no clue what they have and the ad only says ‘old red Orient rug’ or something non specific. So if you’re searching very specific terms you’re going to filter out all those ads.

        • Anon

          I look on eBay to be honest, and it usually ends up directing me to a rug seller’s site.

    • Anonymous

      I just researched this because we moved and got new rugs and I wanted all the new ones to be non-toxic!! We got an all wool/cotton rug from parachute (surprisingly, it was really well priced for something that was non toxic). We also got some smaller rugs from Lorena Canal and a big woven one from hook and loom.

  4. Anon

    Is vocal fry voluntary? Or a mindless bad habit (like saying “I’m” and “like” when you are talking but the words aren’t ready)?

    I have regular calls with a woman who does this and am now noticing it on NPR. It seems common now but I swear people never used to talk this way. My ears really hate listening to it.

    Sort of blaming the Kardashians for this.

    • BeenThatGuy

      Definitely not new. I’m 45 and clearly remember my father yelling at me in the 80’s when I used the word “like” all the time (and not in the “Valley Girl” way).

    • PolyD

      Oh, are you going to get scolded for policing how women talk!

      For what it’s worth, I agree with you. Vocal fry, from men or women, makes the speaker sound like they are so exhausted and could not be less interested in talking to you.

    • Leatty

      Please don’t shame women for this.

      If women speak in a high pitch, they are criticized. Now apparently speaking at a low tone is annoying. Should we just stop talking altogether so we don’t annoy others?

      • Anonymous

        Why not? If people choose to speak in affected tones or rely on verbal ticks, that’s is on them. I am tired of excusing poor or lazy behavior because we shouldn’t shame women. Shame has a place in society.

        • anonshmanon

          I remember (and probably Leatty does too) when women were told to artificially lower their voice to be taken more seriously. At some point you just start seeing that the world gives women the runaround with conflicting advice how to change themselves, so that the world doesn’t have to change. Criticizing the way women speak is just such a tired topic leading to nothing.

        • anonshmanon

          And yes, shame has a place in society. I reserve shame for people who behave morally and ethically wrong. Who exploit and hurt other people.

        • Anon

          Why is it poor or lazy behavior? It’s just now someone talks.

          I’m from California in the 80s and have a valley girl accent if you ask my kids. I can usually keep it mostly together at work but when I talk to one of my long time girlfriends I’m told it really comes out. I can’t really do anything about it as it’s deeply imprinted so I guess I will just continue behaving poorly and lazily and you can mind your own f^*%ing business.

        • Over It

          “Shame has a place in society.” Uh, the reason for both vocal fry and upspeak is in many cases a lack of confidence. Really don’t see how shame makes anyone better. Just makes you sound bitter and angry, and those of us who do have any of these “shameful” vocal ticks even more insecure. Like, really – you don’t have anything better to complain about in the year our lord 2021 than the way woman speak? JFC

          • Anonymous

            You should continue then to speak in ways that sound uneducated and irritate people, and then complain about the patriarchy keeping you down.

          • Over It

            @Anon from 1:25, you are intentionally missing the point. You clearly have an opinion on this without having done a shred of research on why these vocal patterns emerged, who actually uses them and for what purpose. Here’s just one article for your reading pleasure: https://mashable.com/article/vocal-fry-upspeak-women. Key quote: “The internet is littered with utility posts instructing women how they can ditch these speech patterns to sound more professional, more confident, more capable. But the same isn’t true for men. Men do many of these things just as much (if not more) than women, but it’s women whose voices are constantly being policed.”

            Also, I’m pretty sure that having an attitude as toxic and arrogant as yours would be significantly more detrimental to someone’s career than a simple vocal inflection, particularly in the current environment where most major companies have a significant focus on inclusion and diversity. Who hurt you???

        • Anon

          I’m so sorry that you were apparently raised without empathy and were not given space to be yourself, and now apparently have no ability to show empathy and give grace to others. Shaming people doesn’t result in them changing their behavior, as an FYI.

        • Anon

          How is this shame worthy behaviour? I’m reserving my portion of public shaming for serious matters.

    • anon

      I hear people complain about vocal fry and STILL have no idea what they actually mean. Perhaps I’m an offender and don’t even realize it!

    • anonshmanon

      People never used to talk this way because women used to get hardly any airtime on big media.

      • pugsnbourbon

        I think also there was more homogeneity in general across all media – mostly white guys, a handful of white women, very few Black men and women, and everyone coached to speak in a very specific way.

      • Cornellian

        +1. I had a friend who has a master’s in vocal physiology and she was always harping on how when women moved in to the public sphere more last century, women’s (very generalized) higher, softer voices moved down in to chest voices, which can damages women’s physically different vocal cords/etc. By woman I think she hear means someone who went through female secondary puberty, and there is lots of variation, of course, but essentially the way of speaking that comes naturally to women became too soft/feminine/weak when they moved back in to the public sphere after WWII in the West.

        • Anonymous

          This makes sense to me. I’ve learned to sort of lower my naturally high pitched voice. For years as a younger attorney older men, including other lawyers and judges, would insist they couldn’t understand or hear me at all. I read somewhere that older men tend to lose hearing with regard to higher pitches first, and generally don’t give a d@mn that they can’t hear/understand women. I don’t think I have vocal fry but more of a now involuntary lowering like a much less dramatic Elizabeth Holmes. Fwiw my husband’s stepdad still insists he can’t hear me when I’m sitting right next to my deep voiced husband and speaking at the same volume.

          • Cornellian

            That’s been my experience, as well. But forcing my voice lower and louder isn’t necessarily great for our physiology. I remember noticing in college when I lived with 7 roommates of various genders that if we all got a cold, all the women would lose their voice for a couple days, and men would not. Women post-puberty have less of some protective excretion than men do (and babies have the most, which explains why they can scream for hours and not lose their voice).

            It also changes with your monthly cycle and menopause. Wild. https://www.womensinternational.com/blog/hormones-and-the-aging-voice/

          • anonshmanon

            Nuns being known for their high incomes and position of influence, shaping the lives of many with their decisions.

    • anonymous

      I don’t find this shaming how women talk. I’ve heard men do it too. It’s just annoying and grating to my ears. I’m in my mid 40s and I don’t remember people talking this way all the time. I guess it’s just how language/society is changing, which in a historical context I find kind of interesting.

      • Anon

        I feel like it is the new talking like a Valley Girl. Definitely in the habit category and something I think you would want to avoid in an interview or formal situation. To me it sounds very stoner-ish so I am surprised to hear it in the office now or on work calls.

        Ups peak is another bad habit. Ditto knuckle-cracking, which is something I had to train myself not to do when I was a teen. Drove my parents nuts that I did that.

    • Anon

      I was taught that we think ancient Athenian men had a strong nasal accent (based on their discussions of vocal training for oratory and for singing). I am not sure I can tell the difference between vocal fry and nasality, but modern Athenian accents don’t always seem all that dissimilar to me. I think whether someone is criticized for the way they speak depends on a lot on how much status and prestige they held to begin with.

    • Bill C?

      I find a lot of voices (men’s and women’s, and my own, hah!) annoying. But Bill Clinton is notorious for vocal fry and no one ever criticizes him. I agree though there are a lot of annoying verbal tics and such. But again, I probably have some auditory sensory issues I suspect. At least I’m equal opportunity!

    • Anonymous

      Chiming in late to say, I love vocal fry. Maybe this reflects the fact that I sound like a valley girl and grew up in the 1980s, but I find it a lot more interesting than a lot of other speech patterns and at least it’s not monotone. I’m an academic and I know I do it. The way I talk is very different from the way I write. Doesn’t bother my students one little bit and in fact I think a lot of them prefer it because it keeps class more interesting when there’s vocal variation, but my fellow PhDs probably think I’m an idiot when I talk. Oh well.
      That said, I hate upspeak.

    • Kat in VA

      I have vocal fry and it’s very much involuntary. I’ve got a neurological disorder called spasmodic dysphonia – on good days, I have a husky scotch & cigarettes voice. On bad days, I can sound like a strangling goose because the words break up as I’m speaking (think of how you sound if you try to talk when you’re crying really hard). On in-between days, I have vocal fry like no one’s business.

      I know people do it intentionally and it used to annoy me; now I just mentally shrug. I would hate to think people assume I’m doing it on purpose, though; I’m 50 and intentionally frying would make me sound like I’m trying waaaaay to hard to hip.

  5. Anon

    I’ve been asked to lead a committee to make our workplace more attractive to women candidates. I have some thoughts – for example, our retirement benefits are much better than market. I think we need more sponsorship and coaching opportunities for women, focusing on external coaches and programs that are highly rated. (For budget reasons, we tend to want to do coaching in-house by executives who don’t quite have the skill set to do it.) What are things that make your workplace attractive as a prospective employee? I want this to be meaningful. (I realize compensation and benefits are pretty much the top priority for all candidates, regardless of gender.)

    • Anon

      Someone asked this question a couple weeks ago if you want to search the archive. For me the only thing that matters as far as how they treat women is how many women are in leadership positions. Everything else is just lip service.

      • Cat

        Agreed. And by “leadership positions” I mean leadership in operations, sales, finance… not just “pink collar” roles like HR.

      • anonshmanon

        One aspect of that, if your workplace is big enough for everyone not to know everyone else and their job title, is to have transparent statistics available for everyone to peruse, showing the demographic makeup of staff, broken up by seniority level.

      • Anon4this

        I think its more than just having women in leadership roles, it matters who those women are and what they value. I work at a firm with women in leadership roles but the women have basically had to become stereotypical men to get there. Most women leaders at my firm don’t have kids, and if they do have kids, they have a stay at home husband or a husband with a much less intense and much more flexible job so they basically never have to handle kid issues. All the flexibility and family friendly policies are just lip-service because the women who make it don’t take advantage of those policies. To me this is no different than having men in charge.

        • Anonymous

          Agreed. A firm that is focused on developing clients needs to consider how it does that. My old firm focused on developing clients at sporting events and while golfing. It was a great way to exclude women associate and clients.

    • Anonymous

      Voluntary disclosure of benefits, including parenting/childbirth/adoption leave and childcare (if applicable), at the same time salary is discussed. Make clear that this is information that you tell all candidates.

      • Anonymous

        Along with IVF benefits, milkstork (or similar), any kind of transition program back to work after maternity leave. Any statistics about how long males take for parental leave (it should be equal or nearly equal). Daycare and after school care relationships with a local provider for priority spots for infants (the stress about finding childcare for a infant is real). if you have any sort of backup childcare program that is NOT bright horizons and actually is useful and easy to use, that would be great.

        Also, any sort of published salary information that shows men and women in the same position have the same compensation. For all of big law’s failings, I will say that lockstep salary and bonuses for associates is one positive because I don’t have to ever think if a male counterpart is making more than me for billing the same hours.

        • Curious

          +1 to parental leave. My partner gets 6 weeks. I get 16. This is dramatically changing how he relates to the baby.

    • anon

      Women in leadership positions. I don’t care about what education, mentoring, and training programs you offer if your leadership is still all white men or mostly men period. To me that shows the org is putting on these programs for show but in reality isn’t committed to actually promoting women.

    • Anon

      Having women in leadership roles is the main one. Generous family policies including long parental leave that moms and dads are encouraged to take, private offices or other good setup for pumping, MilkStork when people travel, and paying for Mindful Return or similar program.

      • anonshmanon

        Real flexibility beyond lip service, value my work product, not the hours that I sat in my seat to produce it.

    • Anon

      A starting point is to understand what is attractive and unattractive about your workplace to current women employees. Addressing that will increase retention and advancement, which in turn will make it more attractive to women candidates. This will require serious work with a good DEI specialist.

    • Anonymous

      Don’t ask me for my current salary or salary expectations when I apply. It hurts women and minorities.

      When men are sexist, fire them.

      • Anon

        I read this second line as ‘When men are sexist, set them on fire.’

        To which I was ready to enthusiastically support. But yeah, fire them (but not before internally making it known that this will not be tolerated.)

      • Anon

        Both of these. Everyone acts like a man who harasses a subordinate is too valuable to lose, when in fact, he’s just some dude who is doing half his job (the other half is to be a reasonable co-worker and manager) and you can find someone else to do his entire job.

        • pugsnbourbon

          What’s the saying – there’s no abusive “genius” who couldn’t be replaced by someone who is not an assh0le?

          • Anon

            I’ve said something similar many times. There’s also the “downstream” issue: if a sexist man gets canned at the entry level or first managerial level, every single time, he’ll never rise to the point at which he is not expendable. Part of being “irreplaceable,” if that’s even a thing, is having gotten the opportunities to work on higher-level projects and take on more responsibility. Yank that early and you won’t have a Harvey Weinstein, too powerful to take down, on your hands years later.

    • anon a mouse

      Clear signals about flexibility and work-life balance. Enough vacation/sick time that you don’t have to panic if you have a sick kid. It’s one thing to say that you have work-life balance…. it’s another thing to signal in an interview or marketing materials that you understand that life happens, and that you’re not going to routinely schedule 8 am or 5 pm meetings or require weekend work.

    • Anon

      Things I’m attracted to include a workplace with actual women in it who have stuck around and succeeded, professional development programs, equal parental leave for everyone (like a fully paid at least 3-4 month leave, which is important because if men don’t get leave then women default to being the primary parent or the leave is seen a woman-only nuisance), decent healthcare choices that are clearly spelled out.

      • Anon

        Women in leadership – real firm leadership positions (directors, VP, C-suite). The company I work for has a lot of women in middle-management, but it is still a boys club at the top. The women that are in more senior roles are continuously praised for working ungodly late/long hours.

    • Anon

      Some regions need flexible hours: the traffic is so ungodly that the inability to flex your time means you’re wasting time in transit.

      Other regions help with set hours. Near me, the daycares are all open 6 or 7 am until 5:30 or 6 pm, and 8:30-5 is REAL. That’s a huge help as a working mom. A “late” meeting is 4 pm. I

    • Cornellian

      I’d love for a company to not only offer maternity leave but push dads to take paternity leave.

      Ultimately I agree with the other posters about leaders. If you have lots of female leaders, you’ve presumably been doing things right for a while. You can change practices/policies now and start recruiting more women, but it’ll take 5-15 years for them to be in charge.

    • Anon

      Proactively have interviewers talk about their boundaries (doesn’t need to be in that terminology). As an interviewee, there’s no way I can ask “do you get lots of emails on the weekend that you’re expected to reply to ASAP?” but you better believe I want to know. If people proactively tell me that they leave at 5-6 and log on to do ~1-2 hours of work after dinner, that’s really helpful. Or if someone volunteers that they shift their hours and work from 6-8 in the morning but wrap up by 4 every day.
      Also really helpful if people proactively talk about email norms on evenings or weekends. That’s the information I critically want but can’t ask.

      • Anonymous

        Great point! +1

        Also tell me that you’re truly off when on vacation/out sick.

        • Cat

          I wouldn’t ask in the interview bc it comes off as “I want a 9-5 with firm boundaries” but I would 100% ask to talk to other team members after the offer, and talk about things like this with them.

          • Anon

            “I want a 9-5 with firm boundaries” is not a bad thing to be expressing in a job interview if that’s what you want.

        • Anon

          I wouldn’t phrase it like “do you email on the weekends?” But you can definitely ask about workplace culture and people usually answer by talking about work-life balance.

          • Anonymous

            Hm, interesting. I’d ask (and have asked) about working on the weekends, but to each their own.

    • Anonymous

      Maternity leave and women in leadership. If you have a rainbow logo and pronouns in all signatures but no maternity leave policy or women in leadership, you’re not pro-woman. I really get turned off by performative gestures when it comes to women at work.

      • Anonymous

        Yes, maternity leave and all information available from HR during the interview without need to ask for it.
        Also information about availability of day care (on site), parent/kid offices and pumping rooms (maybe with a picture?), milk service, vacation and separate sick days.
        Also, have half the hiring committee be women and not only the admin that helps organizing it.

      • anonshmanon

        maternity leave is not enough. Parental leave (at least a month or two, available also for dads, including parents who adopt) is more the norm nowadays. The best is paid family leave that includes other caregiving responsibilities.

    • Anonymous

      Flexibility—Full time WFH should be available to all and not discouraged. Equal pay, which is still an issue in my industry (finance). Start with just those two things. Without them, all these extra benefits are just extra benefits.
      Frankly, a lot of things mentioned upstream are benefits designed for parents not women. Benefits like that are great but if you want an attractive workplace for women, offer flexibility and pay your female employees as much as you pay your male employees. Appropriate pay is one way to help women build confidence at work, which will make them more interested in taking on leadership roles.

  6. Workout OP from Yesterday

    Thank you to everyone who replied yesterday to my scheduling workouts question. Yes, my husband is very “what’s in it for me in almost all cases” and I am having to figure out how to deal with that. I’m trying to be better about taking care of myself as the kids get older and require less hands on time. A year or so ago I decided I would focus on starting to eat more vegetables on a regular basis and this also caused a problem with him being very unsupportive and making little comments about my “diet”. Someone yesterday had a great comment saying to focus on “I want to be strong and healthy so I can do what I want to physically. When you look at exercise this way, it becomes more of a lifestyle versus a means to some specific end”. I keep trying to explain this to him, but he just seems to think it is about “diet” and “how I look”, which is not my focus at all. I don’t necessarily have to worry about my weight at this point, but I do want to have more energy/feel better about myself so that I can be there for my family for the long term. Trying to make small steps in that direction and feel like he is trying to knock me down all the time.

    • Anon

      Advice: stop explaining. He needs to accept and support that you want to exercise and eat vegetables, whether or not he understands.

      I hope this doesn’t sound harsh in writing, because I don’t mean in that way… one of my biggest problems in my 20s and 30s was believing that if I just explained enough, people would understand, when in reality, the problem/issue is pretty obvious and they needed to accept it. The focus on the explanation is a way of avoiding solving the problem.

      • Anon

        Also: couples therapy. My father sounds exactly like your husband; he qualifies for a bulk discount on filing fees in divorce court. My father made those same little comments because he didn’t respect people, thought that if he didn’t do something or value it that other people shouldn’t either, or just thought it was fun to knock people off-balance.

        • Anon

          My late FIL was like this and my husband definitely picked up some of this growing up. It has taken decades for him to realize this and work on himself to the point where he has suppressed these tendencies. So OP, think about how this might affect your kids too.

        • Senior Attorney

          Disagree with couples therapy. Reading further down, it’s clear that this guy is an abuser. And couples therapy is STRONGLY contra-indicated in situations like this. (For good reason, based on my personal experience!)

          • Anon

            Senior Attorney, my apologies for not having seen the OP’s 11:20 am comment two hours prior to it being written.

          • Senior Attorney

            Coming back to say I wasn’t trying to take a jab at you, Anon at 9:21 a.m. Just flagging this for OP in light of subsequent revelations.

          • Anon

            Senior Attorney, you did jab at me, and for something that was unknowable at the time I wrote it.

          • Anon

            Omg her politely saying she disagrees with you about couples therapy, and explaining why (because of the OP’s follow up comments) is not a ‘jab’ at you. You’re too sensitive for the internet, Anon at 9:21.

        • anon

          Wow. That is a powerful article and describes so much of what I see my friends going through.

        • Anonymous

          Wow, that article was good until it got to “patriarchy benefits white women.” No, no, no. White skin is not a protective shield against rape, abuse, assault, pay gaps, and misogynistic laws. I can’t stand authors who try to tear women apart so we don’t recognize our collective status as a class in need of liberation.

          • anon for this

            Pretty sure that wasn’t the point. She points out that when women stay in bad marriages they benefit from existing social structures including patriarchy. And that when white women leave their eyes are opened to challenges that single mothers, minorities, and other classes face that they’ve otherwise been shielded from.

          • Anonymous

            I can’t agree with that at all. Women do not and never will benefit from patriarchy. It’s not that I misunderstand what the author is saying – I just strongly disagree with it.

          • Anon

            The author knows that there are actual benefits to marriage beyond “social:” it’s easier to run one household on two incomes than to run two households on two incomes; children do better with married parents; and it’s easier to raise kids when someone is there to wash the dishes while you change the diapers. It’s easier to swap off daycare pickups. If one of you sacrifices your career so the kids get to see one parent, there’s at least access to postnuptial agreements and alimony.

            Yet the “blue” model doesn’t really talk about marriage except in terms of social status or the patriarchy, so they can’t talk about the financial benefits to the parents and emotional benefits to the kids. Hence blaming “white women” for… I’m not sure what.

          • Anon

            But that just sounds silly. An individual woman can benefit individually from making patriarchy work to her advantage. Unless you mean something like “but it’s still bad for her in her soul” or something, you sound a bit like someone saying “humans will not and can never benefit from capitalism, because it is bad for the earth and for humans, so capitalism is bad for Jeff Bezos actually.” Well, okay. I wonder how you explain how and why so many women support patriarchy if you think it never, ever benefits us.

          • Anonymous

            They submit to patriarchy in the form of marriage because the alternative (being alone and abused on the streets) seems far worse. You should read the book Right Wing Women by Andrea Dworkin. The fact that many women make a coerced “choice” within the patriarchy does not mean it is good for them.

          • anon

            I think that the blue model folks don’t want to talk about the financial or emotional benefits of marriage (for married people or their kids). There are a whole bunch of reasons for that (many ideological), but ultimately on the left there is a strong desire to treat marriage as a wholly individual institution that doesn’t really have independent societal value. That viewpoint supports other progressive positions around opening access to legal marriage to LGBT people, making divorce easier, and not using public dollars to incentivize marriage. The idea that marriage has societal benefits (through the positive impacts on children) is challenging to the perspective of marriage as a wholly private good and the left has never quite figured out how to reckon with it.

            (Obviously the position on the right – that marriage is a publicly significant institution such that there is a heavy public interest in regulating access to it – has its own resulting issues.)

          • anonshmanon

            I can only speak for myself, but this lefty recons with the impacts of marriage that you mention, by recognizing that reality is a bit more complex than the simple formula: put a ring on it, have happier children. Factors that benefit child development, like higher income, higher education and parental engagement often coincide with being married. But those things can also be found in committed long term relationships, they are not a direct result of being married.
            https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-marriage-effect-money-or-parenting/

        • anon

          This is fascinating to me as someone who is often horrified by the degree to which many women on this board* seem to hate and resent their husbands and also put up with a level of cr*p that is unimaginable to me. This article sheds a lot of light on that.

          *In my non-internet life, I don’t really live in a world of “Blue” marriages, so this board is my primary exposure to the two-working-spouses/high-income/progressive politics life. My husband and I went into marriage with very different expectations/cultural understandings than most people on this board, so our issues (which exist) are just different than the ones I see often expressed here.

      • Anonymous

        I agree. Stop explaining. And stop expecting that he will support you. And stop expecting that he will be different if you are just ____ enough.
        When he makes a comment, just shrug, say something light (“we’re just different, I guess.” “I hear you, but this is important to me.” “Yup, I get that’s what you think, but this is what matters to me.”) and then CHANGE THE TOPIC or leave the room or go on with what you were doing. Don’t get into a discussion about it. You guys are going to differ on eating and exercise, and that’s just a fact. You accept it; he gets to choose to accept it or not. but you’re not going to change to suit him.

        Now…that isn’t going to make you FEEL better inside, about all this, and it’s not going to mean that his comments don’t sting and make you feel bad. To be able to be OK even when he’s digging at you, you’re going to need help from a therapist.

    • Ellen

      My response to hubby’s “what’s in it for me” is really simple.
      I’d tell him:

      “I need to eat better to feel healthy. When I feel healthier, I will have a healthy s-x drive, You’re smart, so If you expect regular s-x, then you already know “what’s in it for me”. Otherwise, if you don’t, you can just go upstairs every nite and service yourself. Your choice!”

    • anon

      This is a relationship question, not a diet and exercise problem. Your DH doesn’t get it because he doesn’t want to get it! It seems like he’s trying to put you in your place. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. Getting resistance when you’re trying to do some really basic things for yourself is sh!tty.

    • Anonymous

      I’m sorry your husband is undermining you. Yes physical strength is important. So is mental strength. I think therapy would be well worth your time. And don’t tell your husband.

    • Anon

      Oh honey, I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt yesterday but double down on exercise and eating well because you’ll want to feel good about yourself when you start dating again.

      • Cornellian

        Maybe I’m too “Let the world burn” but… I’d be inclined to NOT reassure him about doing it for health and not looks. Let him wonder.

        And yeah, get therapy for yourself, even if he won’t go.

    • Broccoli

      Agree you have a relationship problem and don’t need to justify your healthy habits to him. You’re not force-feeding him broccoli, he can STFU. But is he insecure about his body/health? A lot of times when people try to get healthy, an unhealthy friend or relative will try to sabotage them due to insecurity.

    • Anon

      He’s a jerk and he’s not going to suddenly “get it” because he doesn’t want to. He’s either jealous or insecure or controlling or maybe all of the above. Somebody said yesterday you have a husband problem and the more you explain, the bigger that problem seems.

      • OP again

        Thank you for articulating this. I agree, it is a much larger issue. I’m just not sure how to handle it. So tired of always trying and not getting anywhere, feeling like I am never enough, not enthusiastic enough or too enthusiastic, don’t show enough emotion or show too much emotion, not try hard enough or try too hard, it seems I can never do anything “right”. Do laundry at the wrong time of day or don’t do it often enough. Wear the wrong thing or wear the right thing to the wrong event. Search for the wrong thing on the internet or not find the right thing on the internet.

        • Anon

          Big hugs from this internet stranger if you want them. You mentioned “search for the wrong thing”. Have you made sure you’re safe to be on here talking about this? The picture you’re painting is really, really concerning. Others on here have been there and you’re not alone in what you’re dealing with. Please make sure you have some of your own money set aside where no one but you can access it, then go get therapy to figure out your next steps, and find a lawyer. When you’ve been in this long enough, your ideas about what is normal get really, really skewed. You don’t deserve to be treated this way.

        • Anon

          +1 this sounds like someone minimizing abuse, OP. Please get therapy and leave this relationship — it’s not going to get better.

        • emeralds

          OP, I agree, this is all so, so concerning. You are right exactly as you are, and your husband should be the first person in line to support you. It’s wrong that he’s treating you this way. You deserve better. I hope you will follow Anon at 11:27 and 11:32’s advice.

        • Anon

          Maybe you’re just growing apart? When little things about people start to annoy someone, it’s usually not really the other person.

        • Senior Attorney

          Oh, OP. I was you for fifteen long years. It’s such a hard, hard life.

          Spoiler alert: You are never going to get it right. Case in point: For years my former husband criticized me about my weight. So I got weight loss surgery and lost the weight. And guess what? He found other things to criticize about. It’s not about you getting it right — it’s about him wanting to tear you down (and keep you guessing, right? I was always, somehow, surprised when he blew up unexpectedly).

          Please get therapy and end this relationship. Life on the other side is so much better. I have a lovely new husband now but being on my own was about a million times better than being in that marriage.

        • Anon

          I dated someone like this. Those were the most needlessly miserable four months of my life.

          The best exercise you can get is walking to divorce court.

        • Anon

          I’m so sorry he’s making you feel that way, OP. You don’t deserve that, at all.

        • Anon

          So this is what being in an abusive relationship was like for me – I couldn’t do anything right, ever. My marriage is nothing like this. OP, I know others are saying this but want to just emphasize – walking on eggshells so as not to upset your husband throughout your entire marriage is not sustainable and also not the path to overall happiness. If you’re not in individual counseling, I would think about it very seriously – like call someone today. There’s a different life out there for you and people who will think you’re fabulous, just for being yourself. Good luck.

          • anon

            no one has mentioned but this is the best choice for the kids as well, they shouldn’t see you being treated like this and taking it (and they do notice, no matter their age).

    • No Face

      Wow, this is worse than I thought. Your husband does not support you. You cannot find magic words to make him do that. Private therapy, or even time alone where you can think about what you want your next chapter to be, is vital.

      Change your life for the better, and don’t wait around for your husband to support you. It sounds like he wants to tear you down.

  7. Anon

    When you can’t take time off, how do you recover from burnout? I had a really stupid fight with my mom yesterday and it made me realize I’m still not healed from the crazy burnout from last spring. All I want to do is go lie on a warm beach, but that’s not in the cards for at least another 6 weeks.

    • Anon

      When you can’t take time off, how do you recover from burnout? I had a really stupid fight with my mom yesterday and it made me realize I’m still not healed from the crazy burnout from last spring. All I want to do is go lie on a warm beach, but that’s not in the cards for at least another 6 weeks.

    • Anonymous

      One of the things that we’re fighting about complex trauma is that you can’t heal from it while you’re still in the midst of it. I think you do whatever small things you can do for the next six weeks and then if you can find a way to really get away and unplug from it, you do that. If that means you need to leave your job, that might be on the table.

      PS, I am not looking forward to the aftermath of Covid. We are only scratching the surface of the kind of collective trauma we are all going through right now

    • Curious

      One thing you could consider is whether therapy can help you identify interventions that buy you space to heal. Sometimes small things can give you a reset so that slowly, gradually, your baseline level of cortisone/ stress response has a chance to recover.

  8. anon a mouse

    I read this article yesterday about the world of online returns and am trying to rethink my relationship with online commerce. I worked in retail for years and we would regularly accept returns, make sure they were clean and then put them back on the floor for sale. It’s stunning to me to think that most of what I return is just destroyed and feels so wasteful. Yet stores near me have scaled back their inventory and it’s so much easier for a dozen reasons to shop online. Has anyone found a good strategy to make solid purchases and minimize returns?
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/free-returns-online-shopping/620169/

    • anon

      Yes. Only buy what I truly need, not what I want. Use my tape measure to align with size charts when I am buying something new, and when something doesn’t work, instead of returning it, selling it on Poshmark. If I can’t afford to not return if it doesn’t work out, I don’t buy it.

    • Anon

      Fast fashion is wasteful, so if you can afford to skip it, skip it.

      A year or so ago, I accidentally ordered the wrong product off Amazon and put in for a return. They told me to keep it (value: $4). It was appreciated, because I didn’t have to drive to the post office to send it back, and I very rarely initiate returns. In the seven or so years I’ve had Prime, it was my second return.

      Fundamentally, I don’t think it’s my job to solve a retailer’s problem. If they want to make clothes of inconsistent sizes, not have a lot of in-store inventory, and have inconsistent quality, I will not shop there. (Sorry, Ann Taylor, we broke up. It’s not me, it’s you.)

      It’s a PITA for me to order something that doesn’t fit or that I don’t like, so I stick with things I know will work – brands with very consistent quality, websites that have consistent sizing and accurate size charts, and reviews that are helpful. We buy a lot from the Dillard’s house brands because we know how the sizing and quality run; a few times a year, we hit the sales and order $200 worth of stuff online for myself, DH, and our kid. Never felt the need to return any of it.

    • Anon

      I read that article and was appalled too. I wear petites, which are often only carried online, and am hard to fit (narrow hips, large bust), so lots of things just don’t fit me correctly, even if I order the “right” size. I’ve never found size charts to be in the slightest bit helpful, and the only thing that works at all is ordering only from a limited number of brands that tend to fit my shape and then reading reviews to see whether individual items run large or small for the brand. I also mainly order things with a lot of stretch so they’re more likely to work, but finding clothes that fit is still mostly an exercise in frustration and it’s impossible to avoid some returns. I’m super careful to only return things that have never been worn and are completely undamaged and resalable, so it’s gross that so much is being destroyed.

      • Anon

        I feel you on the nearly non-existent availability of petite sizing in bricks and mortar stores, yet supposedly 5’4” is the average height for women in the US. There’s a remarkable disconnect between what is in stores and the sizes (height, weight and shape) of women in the real world.

      • Anom

        Same boat. I’m 5’1”, large bust, narrow hips. Not many stores carry petites in store and fewer still carry my size at the bottom of the size range. No, I can’t buy juniors or child sizes bc a) large bust b) I’m 45.

        Not sure what I can do other than get frumpier and frumpier by not buying anything new…

    • Anon

      I’ve only shopped online for years and have just gotten very good at figuring out what fits me and what brands I like. I almost never have returns because of this.

    • anon

      It’s hard. I also really hate packaging up returns, so I do my best to avoid overbuying. I can pinpoint my size for tops fairly well, especially if I read the reviews, but pants are difficult. The size chart only tells me so much; sizing depends so much on the style. I’m 5’8″. Sometimes I need a tall, other times regular is fine. Size 12 in Style A is not equivalent to Size 12 in Style B. For those, I look really carefully at the fit description. My thighs (athletic) are the limiting factor, so I specifically look for things that are straight or relaxed instead of slim (because said thighs will never make it through the leg). I also rely on certain brands and don’t typically venture outside those if I haven’t been able to try them in person to have some idea about how they’ll fit.

    • anonshmanon

      My approach is to treat clothes shopping much more like grocery shopping, and live without the infinite product selection that is available online. I go to a shop and see what they have and buy something that fits my needs. Sure, online probably has 200 more versions of the product, but economics research shows that overwhelming choices make the consumer less happy anyway.
      I can do this since I wear middle of the road sizes and don’t have any dress code or special events clothing needs.

      • test run

        I’ve been trying to do more of this, too (unless like anon @ 10:23, I’m just replacing something I’ve bought in the past, like running sneakers). The added bonus is that when I shop instore, I’m more likely to just try something on even if it doesn’t look like something I’d normally wear because “why not?” Those pieces tend to be ones I wear all the time – I’m much less likely to take risks with things I order online.

    • Anon

      I don’t shop online, except to replace standard items that I know are unchanged (e.g., the exact sneakers in the exact size that I’ve worn for the past 10 years), or items that I have already tried on in person and was just waiting for a sale for. I truly cannot remember a time I have returned an article of clothing. It sometimes feels a little limiting, because it means I only buy from a couple brands that I have access to a store for. I do work in a formal environment so I have non overlapping work and casual clothes; and I buy relatively less clothing than most of my friends though my closet always still feels full. I’m willing to pay more for clothing, and if I’m traveling to a place I know has a brand I love, I will leave space in my suitcase in case I decide to buy something I’ve been looking at. I realize I’m quite out of the norm though, and it’s definitely getting harder to shop this way.

    • Anon

      I wonder if buying online and returning in store would be better? At least the stuff would make it back to the rack.

      • anon

        Not always because if it’s an online only item they won’t rack it and it ends up in the same garbage pile.

        • Anon

          I know Gap/Old Navy will put it back out on the floor but not sure about other stores. They always have a few stray online-online maternity items that were returned stashed somewhere in the kid’s section.

    • Anonymous

      I just do not really purchase new unless it’s something I 100% have to buy new and know exact what I want (ie/ about once a year I buy a new set of my favourite undies). Otherwise everything is second hand. I’ve also really changed my relationship with fashion and now I mend, alter, and upcycle. I don’t follow trends, instead I focus on the colours and cuts that work for me.

    • Anon

      I am trying to work on accepting that I shouldn’t act as if anything I could ever want is at my fingertips, because even if that is technically true, it has bad consequences for the world and for real, live people. I can learn to go without or substitute or wait.

    • Anonymous

      I view it as in part the retailers problem; they could reduce returns by actually policing their garment production so the sizing is consistent. I shop a limited set of brands that I have found to be relatively consistent, but still have fails. Some I can solve with tailoring, like a weird long sleeve, but their failures do need to go back.

      • anon

        Also, retailers would be well served to do things better and right, and not offer 130 styles of blouses for each microseason. Pick a lane, you know?

        • Anon

          One interesting part of LuLaRich was a throwaway line: Mark saying that he and DeAnne spent a YEAR designing one of their dresses. The prints were ugly, because they rushed print design; however, the dresses tended to fit a wide range of body sizes and types, and had enough stretch to them to accommodate weight fluctuations. Women could put them on and they would look… reasonable. Pair that design strategy with decent QC on production, reasonably cute designs, and a sales model that is not exploitative, and you would have an incredible powerhouse. The whole thing only worked because women’s fashion is a complete cluster.

    • Anon

      I mean, this is bad, but most familiar brick and mortar retailers routinely destroy merchandise as a matter of policy too.

    • AnonNoVa

      This makes me feel bad, but I have such a hard time finding flattering clothing (broad shoulders, curvy lower half, pandemic weight gain) that there is usually at least a 50% chance that clothing I order will not fit. I had worked around this by just ordering the same cut of pants from ann taylor factory outlet and talbots, but both have been changed so it’s back to the drawing board. It never occurred to me that the items I return would not be resold.

    • Anonymous

      I use Talbot’s for this reason. The town where I live is woefully short of places where I can buy clothes, but it does have a small Talbot’s. I try something on if it is in stock, but if I need another size it can be ordered by telephone by the staff. If the item is not in stock, it can still be ordered and sent to my home, and the staff often have some additional knowledge about the sizing. And if I order something on-line from home but when I try it on there is a problem I can just return it to the local store.

      • Anonymous

        This is why I buy a lot from Talbots too. I can order online and return in store. I would rather buy in the store, but for some reason they don’t carry their curvy fit pants in the stores in Canada.

  9. Anon

    I had people over for dinner and made Ina’s turkey sausage lasagna on y’all’s recommendation and it was a huge hit. A guest who lives in Italy said it was as good as what he eats at home. (!!) Sooo, I’m having them over again and now the bar is set really high ? Any recs for a similarly impressive dish that their 3 year old will also like?

    • anon

      I’d probably make the same main dish and change up the sides and dessert! Sometimes it’s fun to have a go-to recipe.

    • Anonymous

      I’d really encourage you to ask them about their 3yos likes and dislikes, as those can be pretty idiosyncratic. E.g., my kid LOVES black olives but will not touch anything with tomatoes.

      • Anon

        Agreed. My kid turns her nose up at lots of kid staples, including grilled cheese and chicken tenders, but will eat shrimp Indian food (we are not Indian). Only way to ensure you have something the 3 year old will eat is to ask the parents what she eats.

    • Anon

      My toddler would eat that! He’s not a fan of things that are vegetable heavy but pasta, meat, fruit he likes. You can probably make anything you want and toddlerify something complimentary if he’s choosy. Like last night we had tacos and black beans cooked with vegetables, which my kid won’t eat, but he’ll eat the beans if I stick them in a quesadilla.

    • Anon

      Chicken Under a Brick. Think of it as panini-ing a chicken.

      For dessert (and this will be the showstopper) do Ina’s Brownie Pudding.

    • Jdmd

      Check out the pork ragu on the Dinner A Love Story site. It’s been a never-fail winner for me. Serve with buttered noodles (toddler-friendly!) and a green salad.

    • IL

      Roast a side of salmon and serve with mashed potatoes and glazed carrots? The toddler may or may not eat some salmon, but most will happily have mashed potatoes and carrots.

    • Betsy

      Probably not advice for this meal unless you want to be the lasagna lady, but Ina’s portobello mushroom lasagna is also super delicious!

    • Senior Attorney

      I love Ina’s crispy chicken with lemon orzo and I feel like it would be kid-friendly.

  10. Horse Crazy

    Dumb question because it’s been A WEEK and my brain is no longer functioning properly. I need a side dish to bring to a party tomorrow – the host is ordering pizzas and there will be salad, but I need to bring another side. What should I do? I’m happy to cook/put something together – it doesn’t have to be a pre-made thing. I just cannot focus enough to come up with any ideas. Need to serve 9 people

      • Anon

        I love the idea of just grabbing wings from like the ‘Good Wings Place’ near you.

      • test run

        +1 these are both good suggestions. To me, pizza + salad is a complete meal and doesn’t need many more sides, so I honestly can’t think of anything else.

    • Anon

      That’s so weird to me. Pizza doesn’t need sides beyond maybe a salad. It’s pizza! It’s a whole meal in itself!

      • Also Anon

        Right? If I’m invited to a pizza party, my go-to thing to bring would be a bottle of pinot noir and various spices, hot sauces, and/or drizzles people can add to the pizzas.

        And if I’m ordering food, I’d rather order ALL the food and ask people to either chip in on Venmo or bring drinks.

    • Anon

      If there are kids in attendance, I’d bring a huge fruit tray or fruit salad.

      If not, go for game-time sides. Maybe a tray of 7 layer dip or buffalo chicken dip, with a big bag of chips. Soft preztels wit hcheese and mustard to dip. A big thing of nachos. Jalapeno poppers. A savory parm-garlic monkey bread.

      Another crowd pleaser is puppy chow. Technically it’s a dessert but no one can resist and (as a Midwesterner) it goes with everything. Bonus is that it’s super easy to make, only 4 ingredients, and you can make a huge batch at once.

    • Also Anon

      Maybe meatballs cooked in marinara, finished with a dusting of parmesan, on toothpicks?

    • Formerly Lilly

      I too think that sides to pizza is weird. How about antipasto skewers with a drizzle of vinaigrette? On. 5-6″ cocktail skewer: black olive, folded in half spinach leaf, a piece of cooked tortellini, folded in half basil leaf, green olive, folded in half or quarters spicy salami slice, small mozzarella ball. Dressing: whisked together or run through a blender – 1 garlic clove finely minced, 1/4 cup balsamic vinegar, 2 tablespoons fresh lemon juice, 1 tablespoon Dijon mustard, 1 cup good olive oil, salt and pepper to taste; stir in 1 tablespoon total of a combination of dried tarragon, dried basil, and Herbs de Provence. (my version of The Silver Palate’s Luxembourg Dressing, to give credit where credit is due). Plate the skewers, take the dressing in a jar and give the platter a good drizzle of the dressing when it’s time to eat.

      • Anon for this

        That sounds delicious, but I don’t have the patience to assemble all those separate skewers!!

  11. ObamaCare

    Based on the questions about elder care and Medicaid I’m wondering if anyone has insight. A friend said she hates Obamacare because she tried it once when she was unemployed in ~2012. She ended up selling some stock to pay for living expenses, paid the capital gains tax on the income, but then also owed several thousand dollars extra in health insurance on her next tax return as a result. She blames Obamacare, but to me that sounds like the normal consequences of capital gains, right? She’s unemployed again, has a history of serious illness, and I don’t think making good choices about her health care options.

    • Anonymous

      Well yeah sounds like she got a discount for being poor but oopsies wasn’t.

      • Anon

        That’s probably what happened. I am getting a small subsidy because I projected my income on the low side for my first year in business for myself. I fully understand that if I hit it out of the park income-wise, I will owe that subsidy back, which I think of as a good problem to have!

    • Anon

      Uh… full Obamacare/ACA didn’t come into effect until 2014… And this is more of an impact of the fact that she had presumptive eligibility based on her stated income at the time.

      When she subsequently sold the stock it was subject to capital gains AND she also jumped up in income and thus was then eligible for a lower amount of subsidy. The vast majority of people have fairly stable income year over year and/or don’t have sudden cash influxes of the level it sounds like she had (based on my knowledge, it would have been in the range of $15-30K minimum she sold in stocks which would have given her that kind of a shift.

      This isn’t a little of an ACA thing and more of a ‘your year end income was significantly higher than expected AND you had capital gains’ thing.

      • Anon

        Sorry, to clarify – ACA wasn’t fully implemented so depending on the year, it may have not had much to do with the ACA.

      • Obamacare

        Op here – yeah I’m trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. If she had a normal middle class salary but little savings, and then lost a job and had to sell investments to cover living expenses, that’s not a sudden influx of cash, but would account for the tax penalty, right? It sounds like she was still better off with ACA than COBRA, as another poster pointed out, just maybe didn’t think it through. What changed in 2014?

        Thanks for the replies.

    • Anonymous

      I guess if she wants to blame the program for how it’s set up, she’s free to. It’s possible she didn’t understand that if your income is over a certain amount, the subsidies go away. If your income increases from what you estimated it would be, when you pay your taxes for the year, you can be liable for the subsidies you got that you didn’t actually qualify for, and you have to pay them back. Is that the “fault” of Obamacare? Sure. It’s how the program works.

    • anon

      Basically, she doesn’t like Obamacare because her income was to qualify for the subsidies, but she misunderstood that capital gains would be treated as income? That’s ludicrous. If anything, Obamacare helped her because she was able to buy an individual policy (cheaper than COBRA) while unemployed, despite any pre-existing conditions she may have had.

    • anonymous

      To be honest, it sounds to me like she’d have a different view of “Obamacare” (a racist term itself) if the president who signed it were white. Then throw in that she had stock to liquidate in case of a financial emergency, and I’m really struggling to see how you can be friends with this person. Racist, privileged (and totally unaware of it)…

      • anon

        Good lord. Obamacare is not a racist term. It’s used by tons of mainstream news outlets, the Biden campaign sold bumper stickers that used the term, literally everyone I know says it. Her friend may be privileged and clueless, but to jump from “Obamacare” to “how can you be friends with this racist” is loony.

      • Anon B

        Why hate the ACA? Am asking as someone who literally couldn’t get coverage independently before it was implemented thanks to HPV and am so thankful to be able to be on a solid plan without having to rely on a plan through a workplace. My husband and I have both had pretty much everything covered with our ACA plan including surgeries…What are the downsides to look out for?

    • Anon

      I think it’s probably that she had to pay back her subsidy, as explained above, and also the fact that paying for your own health insurance is hideously expensive.

      I actually got in a little spat about this with a friend. She was complaining that they suck you in with low premiums but if you get any sort of care everything skyrockets. I was like what? It doesn’t work that way. Your premiums don’t go up if you have claims. But it turns out she bought the cheapest plan and has a very high deductible so when she broke her ankle it was all within the deductible and she had to pay for it. No amount of patient explanation could make her understand that she wasn’t screwed over by the ACA, she sad screwed over by her own choice.

  12. Anon 2.0

    I’m looking for some book recommendations for an upcoming vacation where I plan to spent a good chunk of time laying on the beach reading.

    The catch is I prefer non-fiction books, especially books highlighting fun, unique histories of things that aren’t always well know. Also prefer more “modern” events post 1900.

    • Anon

      Feather Thief and River of Doubt are two of the best I’ve read recently that may fit the bill. Also liked Furious Hours.

      • anon

        +1 Feather Thief! I also recommend The Dinosaur Artist and The Sixth Extinction.

    • Anon

      You might like this book called A Kim Jong-Il Production about how the North Korean dictator kidnapped some South Korea filmmakers and forced them to make propaganda movies for him (they eventually defect to the US). It’s not super light, given the subject matter, but it’s a fascinating glimpse into North Korea and at times it feels a bit like a spy thriller.

    • Anon

      The Secret Life of Lobsters. Non fiction and fascinating look at how consumption of lobsters changed from a poor-man’s meal to a luxury.

      Bill Bryson has some great non-fiction historical dives (I recommend both One Summer: 1927 and At Home – A history of the home).

      Mary Roach has non-fiction dives into science. Packing for Mars is a great look at what it would really take to travel to Mars. Stiff explores how cadavers have been treated over history.

      • Gail the Goldfish

        Second Bill Bryson. I like his travel stuff the best (which are laugh-out-loud funny), but his other stuff is good too.

        • amberwitch

          Meh on Bill Bryson. I started reading his book about walking across Britain (something something little Dripping?), and he was just so sexist and classist in his atemts at humour that I gave up after the first three chapters.

          • Anon

            Yeah I can’t stand Bill Bryson. My dad loves his books though, but my dad is also a 72 year old white man who is ok with a little sexism or racism in the name of humor.

          • Cat

            Some of his books (the travel ones mostly) are more “old British humor” and some are more informational storytelling – A Short History of Nearly Everything, One Summer, etc are very different. Still a sense of humor but nothing that struck me dated & unfunny, although admittedly it’s been probably 15 years since I read Short History so some of that may have aged in the interim.

    • Anonymous

      This is where I go for books about exploration or women in mountaineering. Try The Lost City of Z, The Lost City of the Monkey God, and Savage Summit. Annapurna: A Women’s Place is another great choice.

      Also, these are a bit heavier, but they’re amazing works of nonfiction: The Indifferent Stars Above (about the Donner Party), The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down (this is incredible), and Say Nothing (the war in Ireland).

        • Cat

          +100 to Shadow Divers, as well as Into Thin Air, both of which I recommended on the “books for grandfathers” thread the other week.

      • Anon

        Another gruesome but interesting option are the books published about the Uruguayan soccer team that crashed in the Andes and their journey back to civilization. There are a couple – I think one is called Alive.

    • Anon

      More memoir than strict non-fiction, but The Desert and the Sea: 977 days Captive on the Somali Pirate Coast is fascinating and surprisingly funny. Also The Long Haul, the memoirs of a long haul truck driver was eye opening.
      Hidden Valley Road and Bad Blood are two more captivating non fiction reads recently.

      • Senior Attorney

        Fun fact: The author of Hidden Valley Road (which I read and enjoyed) is also the author of this week’s internet sensation, Bad Art Friend in the NY Times.

    • Anon

      Not sure if this would interest you, but “Finding Betty Crocker: The Secret Life of America’s First Lady of Food” was a light, fun read. (Betty Crocker never existed, so it’s an engaging read about home economics, advertising, and women’s life beginning in the 1920s.)

      • PolyD

        That sounds really good!

        I read a book called So Happiness to Meet You, by Karin Esterhammer, about an American family that went to live in Vietnam. It was really interesting.

    • LifeScienceMBA

      – Stuff Matters: Exploring the Marvelous Materials That Shape Our Man-Made World by Mark Miodownik
      – Liquid Rules: The Delightful and Dangerous Substances That Flow Through Our Lives by Mark Miodownik
      – A Walk Around the Block: Stoplight Secrets, Mischievous Squirrels, Manhole Mysteries & Other Stuff You See Every Day (And Know Nothing About) by Spike Carlsen
      – The 99% Invisible City: A Field Guide to the Hidden World of Everyday Design by Roman Mars and Kurt Kohlstedt

    • Anonymous

      It is pretty science-heavy at time, but I loved The Code Breaker, about Jennifer Doudna and CRISPR.

      • Anon

        I’m snobby about science writing, but that was actually my least favorite Walter Isaacson I’ve read. It was ok but it could have been so much better.

    • Daffodil

      The Spy and the Traitor by Ben MacIntyre (or other books by him). Non-fiction, but reads like a spy novel. This was my favorite of his books, but I’ve enjoyed them all.

    • editor

      I loved The Disappearing Spoon so much! From the cover design on in. It tells the origin stories of the individual elements in the periodic table. I am in no way a scientist and I ( as I said) just loved it.

      And now more than ever, Flu, by Gina Kolata. I’ve bought it for a couple of people.

    • Curious

      This is not history exactly, but Genome by Matt Ridley is incredible science writing and tells huge numbers of stories, many of them histories of science / discovery, as it goes. It’s got a chapter for each chromosome and tells what we knew about them ~20 years ago when he wrote it. It’s one of my favorite books of all time.

  13. Michelle Pallas

    The Curve of Time: (amazon blurb This is the fascinating true adventure story of a woman who packed her five children onto a twenty-five-foot boat and explored the coastal waters of British Columbia summer after summer in the 1920’s and 1930’s.) I bought this to read on a ferryboat ride to one of the islands off Vancouver and it instantly became one of my favorite books.

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