ByElizabeth Hours Updated
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Splurge Monday’s Workwear Report: Amor Ribbed Silk and Cashmere Midi Dress

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A woman wearing a camel-colored midi dress with short sleeves

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

Every working woman needs at least one outfit in her closet that she can throw on after a long night and know it will look great without too much thinking. For me, it’s usually a dress, and lately, I’ve been loving sweater dresses with a little bit of structure, like this one from Gabriela Hearst. I like the seam at the waist, and it looks like the mid-weight knit would be really comfortable.

Add a blazer if you want, and you’re ready for just about anything. 

The dress is $1,890 at NET-A-PORTER and comes in sizes XS-XL. 

Sales of note for 4/17:

  • Nordstrom – Beauty savings event, up to 25% off – nice price on Black Honey
  • Ann Taylor – Cyber Spring! 50% off everything + free shipping
  • Boden – 25% off everything (thru Sun, then 15% off)
  • Brooklinen – 25% off sitewide — we have and love these sateen sheets
  • Evereve – 1000+ items on sale, including lots from Alex Mill, Michael Stars, Sanctuary, Rails, Xirena, and Z-Supply
  • Express – $29 dresses
  • J.Crew – 30% off all dresses
  • J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything, and extra 50% off clearance
  • Lands' End – 50% off full price styles and 60% off all clearance and sale – lots of ponte dresses come down under $25, and this packable raincoat in gingham is too cute
  • Loft – Friends & Family event, 50% off entire purchase + free shipping
  • Macy's – 25% off already reduced prices + 15% off beauty & fragrance
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229 Comments

  1. Help me pack for a vacation trip to Rome and Naples next month. Will be doing a fair amount of walking and not going to any fancy restaurants. Can I manage with just a pair of fresh Hokas and basic Rothys? And Athleta Brooklyn’s and one pair of woven pants? Solid layers above the waist. Maybe a scarf since I can run cold. I want to look presentable and yet unremarkable, invisible as a woman in her 50s with foot comfort paramount (these shoes work generally for me here). Not aiming for a remake of Sabrina.

    1. Is there rain in the forecast? I would do an extra pair of walking shoes in case your Hokas get wet. It will also help your feet if you can rotate shoes.

    2. Having been to Rome in 2024 and Naples in 2025, bulky bright sneakers like Hokas, worn by a middle-aged woman and not ironically by local 20 somethings, will identify you as an American Tourist from a mile away. As will obvious athleisure fabrics. If you have any lower-profile street sneakers – like Adidas Gazelles or similar – that you could add insoles to and be comfortable, that would be a vast improvement.

      Also, my feet will not tolerate wearing the same pair of sneakers every day. I would bring at least one other pair to swap. A single neutral shoe for dinners is fine but not for wearing for all-day touring!

      Flowy woven pants are great.

      1. you are adding facts not in evidence. hokas come in black and white. also this person is a tourist, what is wrong with looking like a tourist?

        1. was commenting when you replied, but we find we’re treated very well by signaling we want to blend with the local culture vs. advertising we’re American.

          1. Unless you speak good Italian or another Euro language, don’t people know you’re American as soon as you speak?

          2. Right? I took Latin and Spanish and would likely mangle both trying to get around Italy (where people might be relieved to revert to English). G-d bless the world for learning English as a second language and doing a great job of that because as much as I try to learn more Spanish, I can never practice it enough to get good at it. I do enjoy Sabado Gigante though.

          3. we learn at least basic tourist phrases for traveling abroad – like asking for a table. While it’s obviously with an American accent, we find it very well-received, and waiters particularly in Italy very tolerant of us practicing our Italian with them, vs. switching to English the minute we open our mouths. Give it a try!

          4. There’s the concept of the ugly American, which you probably should try to avoid.

          5. LOL at the image of a tourist trying to get by on Latin in Rome. Ubi est Amphitheatrum Flavium?

          6. Does the rest of the world not take Latin in middle or high school? I feel that it was one of the hopeful signs at our local public school — how bad can it be if they teach Latin? [Don’t ask.]

            I get that you can’t speak it anywhere, but it’s made it so much easier to figure out other Romance languages quick enough on the plane over.

      2. I should say, it’s not like you would be “turned away” from basic eateries despite being an obvious American… it just might spare you the low-hanging fruit street hassling (like waiters hollering at you from tourist-neighborhood restaurants with giant menus printed in English).

        The minute a waiter hears my accent (even though asking for a table in basic Italian) they’ll know we’re American. We just try to signal “respectful tourist” as opposed to “oblivious American” with attire, as that’s the first impression!

      3. I mean, flowy woven pants are just “Americans in their vacation clothes.” No one from this country is disguising where they’re from by their outfits. We stick out no matter what.

    3. if you don’t mind wearing the same thing than yes you can definitely manage! I would pack a light weight jacket, a thin cashmere sweater and a sweatshirt or a cotton sweater. 4-5 shirts and callit a day

      1. Even without speaking or wearing athleisure clothes, the vast majority of Americans can be spotted on sight. Maybe they won’t know if you are Canadian or American, but it’s not like they are going to think you are a local.

        1. I wore Hokas and Brooklyns to an appointment with an elderly family member and was asked repeatedly if I was a doctor or worked in health care.

        3. I dressed in a way I hoped would be respectful, and while nobody in Italy thought I was local, English was no one’s first choice of language for addressing me either.

          I don’t mind if people know I’m American, but I didn’t want people to assume I would be rude or that my politics were terrible.

        4. European here, and the easiest way to identify American tourists is by loudness. I don’t know why, but lots of American tourists seem to talk really loudly, even if there are just two people.

          Other travellers can be loud, too, of course, but in a different way.

    4. Bring more than two pairs of shoes. You need to let them air out between wears and you should switch shoes at some point during the day to avoid blisters. What about supportive boots or booties? They’ll be more presentable at dinner.

      Pack some nice jeans. Bluntly you’re walking around a city, not climbing a mountain. You don’t need to wear performance gear the whole time. City dwellers walk 15k steps in hard pants.

      1. Eh, a walking city vacation would be a lot more activity than I’m used to (sad reflection on a busy time in my life). It might require wicking materials for me.

        1. I’d still recommended changing into some nicer clothes for dinner. If you think you’ll sweat you probably don’t want to stay in the same outfit anyway.

          If you’re dead set on athleisure then elevate it with a polished jacket and minimalist color palette. I’m a fan of all black with pops of olive or camel.

    5. OP here: I can speak basic Italian phrases.

      I live a life where I work in finance (still pretty formal and I am a stark 90s minimalist still), mom-attire (softer looking items for things like orchestra concerts and assemblies where I am there as a college-student parent and workwear is too formal and athleisure is too informal), and washable movement-friendly clothes from a year of travel for eldercare / house clearing / estate administration. I have some jeans. My feet hate all boots and booties currently except ones truly for winter, except for some Keen hiking boots, so no options here and I don’t believe in taking walking trips with new shoes.

        1. Like this is 2026? I have been a lot of places, but not recently. I follow this for fashion in the country I live in, so I can see asking a Q for current ideas for places you aren’t regularly going to, for either work travel (easier, in some ways) or for fun.

          1. But you just want to wear ugly American sneakers and athleisure. You don’t seem open to any ideas.

      2. I’m a little amazed at being able to wear Rothys at all while still so limited when it comes to other shoes!

        1. I hate my Rothys but love my Allbirds (and have walked miles in them). I think it’s foot shape dependent.

    7. I’m replying not to the OP but to the general tenor of following remarks. I think locals complain about tourists, not just American tourists. A friend from Bosnia used to tell me the problems with tourists on the beach based on their country of origin (Germans brought their own food instead of buying from local Bosnian businesses; Italians spread out on the beach too much.) I’m not sure the rest of the world puts as much energy into paying attention to Americans as we sometimes feel.

      1. Yeah I don’t think being American is the problem. It’s whether you look like you understand the culture and put in the effort to respect their norms. Locals are more helpful and businesses provide better service when you look presentable. When you go out to dinner in glorified sweatpants people treat you accordingly. We noticed a huge difference when we wore athleisure on our travel days.

        Maximum comfort all day long and looking presentable are mutually exclusive.

    8. Alyssa Beltempo does a lot of good travel style inspiration for Italy. She posted one video about some of the style mistakes she’s made in Italy and lessons learned.

    9. Rothys have no support and they start to smell bad if you walk a lot in them! I would not bring Rothys or Hokas. I would get a couple of pairs of fashion sneakers from a brand like Adidas–one in a neutral and one in a fun colorway that complements your tops. And then you need a pair of loafers or leather ballet flats that are comfortable for shorter evening strolls.

    10. My husband and have travelled and do travel extensively. We usually go to European cities for about three weeks to a month and try to blend in. We are Canadian and do trips similar to what you describe….mostly walking, museums, picnics, small hikes, and less into the fancy dining.
      We do similar trips to what you describe. We do wear new balance runners… the 327s or 574s (I wear inserts in mine)and walk tons. I bring one leather runner, such as the Ecco’s annd wear it when it rains, and one new balance. I love sandals, but I just don’t feel great in open toes for city trips with tubes, trains, and city dirt. I’m trying to find a nicer shoe, such as a pretty oxford, but most I’ve found don’t stand up to the amount of walking even with custom inserts, and it takes up valuable luggage space. We check in a one suitcase between the two of us, and have a carryon knapsack each. We’re both in our mid 50s.

      I usually bring my “soft” pants. These are pointe pants with a wide leg— some random tj maxx brand. You can bring jeans, but I think athleisure fabrics dry faster if that’s a factor. We go to a few nicer restaurants and I simply wear a dress or skirt with runners and it’s fine. Would I love to have a cute shoe? Sure, but even though I could fit it if I wanted, it’s not worth it to wear. Most city dwellers walk, and runners fit in. If they are bigger runners such as hikes, go with a darker colour perhaps. My Ecco’s are pink, and new balances blue, so colour is fine and locals wear runners too! Enjoy your trip!

      1. I wanted to add that I take the warmer pointe pants as my option for rain or cooler evenings (we travel in summer), and a pair of lighter cotton gauze pants and or linen pants. I take one rain jacket, as well as super lightweight rain shell for summer rain.
        I like to wear skirts and dresses, so I usually take two or three skirts and two dresses. Usually one dress is dark for trains and transit, and a few are lightweight and patterned for walking and museums. I pack an spf jacket from athleta to protect my arms, as well as a cotton linen blend jacket to wear over short sleeves. I take a merino cardigan for layering as well. I wear all this with lace up leather runners and more nb street style runners. We walk 10- 18 km a day.
        When I first did this kind of travel, I dreamed of huge luggage and tons of options, and while we do check in luggage, it’s just not worth it for me to drag more. There is always one item that doesn’t get worn, usually due to weather. If I need something cooler or warmer, I can always buy a piece on the trip.
        .

  2. Kind of a gross foot question, but hoping someone can guide me. Despite monthly pedicures, I get really thick skin on the bottom of my feet. In particular, right below my 2d and 3d toes, oot and the outer edge of my foot, below the baby toe. This is true on both feet. First question: does anyone have a product they really think helps with this? I’ve been doing glycolic acid followed by thick aquophor and socks, but no difference. Second, is this something a derm could help with? Foot doctor? I’d really like to eliminate this but am flummoxed on where to start.;

    2. I’d use a high percentage urea cream over Aquaphor for thick skin.

      I feel like every other medical specialty redirects to podiatry if it’s feet! Also I’m used to podiatry being recommended while pedicures are not.

      1. Aquafor is an occlusive, so the urea cream won’t penetrate if you put it over the Aquafor. Maybe urea cream first, then the Aquafor?

    3. Have you tried the “cheese grater” style foot file? It looks scary but it doesn’t hurt at all. It works well on that spot on the outer edge below the baby toe. I tried the urea creams and they did nothing. I recently did a Korean foot peel and I’m pretty happy with the results – my heel skin is still thick, but much smoother.

    4. If my callouses start to get so thick that they crack or so dry they scratch and snag on my socks, I use a pumice stone in the shower to knock them down.

      Otherwise, low-level callouses protect my feet from blisters and for that reason I prefer not to have baby soft feet.

    5. I use a pedi glass thing from Ulta in the shower every other time. First the rough side, then go over it with the other smooth side. It is to be used wet, and I put bar soap on it because that feels better than direct. I also slather my feet with lotion & put on old wool socks until I am ready to get dressed.

    6. The callouses on my feet (especially the side of my big toes) were an early sign of Hallux limitus and that I needed to wear more sensible shoes.

      1. This isn’t the only question (sometimes the answer is “no” but also it’s another health issue causing the foot issue).

      2. It is more a cosmetic issue than a functional one, although the thick skin under the middle toes does bug me a bit when I walk long distances. But mainly, I can’t stand the look or feel.

    8. I just cut off those calluses on my pinky toe after a shower, when they’re pretty soft. I use toenail clippers. I’ve had them forever, at least since my early teens. It’s just the way my feet are shaped.

    9. A podiatrist should look at the thick skin concern. There might be some medical issue that needs attention and filing the foot or otherwise trying to address it yourself could make it worse. Health insurance plan should cover the visit. For heels and sides of feet, I use Dr Scholl’s nanoglass foot file as needed- it’s way better than any pumice stone, metal file or glass file I’ve ever used.

    10. Calluses are a buildup of dead skin, so you need something to remove them. It sounds like the chemical exfoliant isn’t doing the trick, so you should look at a physical option. I like an old-school pumice stone to buff off the dead skin after a long shower, but people have given you a lot of options.

      You may also want to look into what’s causing them, since they bother you when you walk long distances. Calluses build up where you have friction, so something in your shoes and/or gait is causing uneven pressure under your middle toes. That’s probably the place a podiatrist can help.

    11. This sounds weird, but using my red light panel on my feet has been helpful with thick, cracked skin.

      1. Try alpha hydroxy acid. I use ordinary 7%. Then seal with urea and salicylic acid combo cream or stick. Use daily for baby soft feet.

  3. what are people wearing for lipstick these days? i feel like actual lipstick looks a little heavy and am leaning back into black honey clinique and tinted glosses but sometimes i think real lipstick is necessary, makes you look like “i put on lipstick. mean business”

    4. Sisley Paris Phyto Rouge Shine. It does require frequent reapplication, but it’s sheer enough that you can quickly do it blind without a mirror.
      The color Cocoa doesn’t look all that impressive as a swatch but I find it very wearable and flattering for a natural but finished sort of look (Caucasian, somewhat yellow skin tone, but I’ve got a feeling this might be a near universal color). I’ve got Flamingo as well, which is bright without being intense, and have two more colors on order. It’s not on sale in the Nordstrom beauty sale but you do get 3x points right now.

    6. NARs makes my favorite lipsticks. The Shine Hydrating lipstick is my current go to, I don’t like lipstick making my lips feel dry. They also have great balms as well. Their Audacious line is also great, I wore it to my wedding and ten (!) years later it’s still my go to.

    7. I’m lining my lips with a shade that is neutral for me, filling them in, and then applying a colored gloss (hourglass) on top. The color has a bit more pop/long wear that way. I’ve also been pleased by the Wonderskin lip tints, they last and I don’t find them particularly drying.

    8. Drugstore option – Maybelline serum lipstick. Feels really light and isn’t drying. Some of the shades are pretty bright but there are mauves/pinks/neutrals as well.

    9. I really don’t like black honey. If I want something like, I’ll use Burts Bees with a tint. Mostly, I use lipstick from Anastasia Beverly Hills.

    10. Lip crayon, stilla liquid lipstick or Chanel liquid lip duo. Glosses look kind of juvenile to my eye and most butters and balms have no wear time and can look a little smeary. Bullet lipsticks have more color payoff but don’t last very long given how much water I drink in a day.

    11. recent favorites – nars dolce vita and something (got a duo at the nordstrom sale last year)
      – merit millennial — whatever that one is (satin?) i prefer it to the others i’ve tried
      – there’s a lancome in a gold tube that i liked, very hydrating and may technically be a gloss
      – i got a charlotte tilsbury in my recent haul but i think it’s technically a gloss for pillowtalk.
      – i got the violette stain everyone is obsessed with, i don’t like the staying power but that’s me.

    3. I bought and returned 3 sweater dresses this fall/winter as I kept thinking ‘maybe this one will flow/be forgiving of my mid-40s body’. Nope. Ribbed dresses/sweater dresses are just not something I can wear without shapewear and therefore I don’t wear them at all.

    4. I have never spotted a dress like this that flatters the person wearing it. I can imagine it is comfortable, though, so if they like it, more power to them.

    5. Every body is different, but I find that a silk slip is sufficient under this type of dress to prevent every lump, bump, and line from my bra from showing through.

      1. I could be Underwriters Laboratory for testing stuff like this. 50ish. Pear. Fond of food. Give me your slips and knitwear and let me show you if it works or not.

    6. Try a slip. Like old school Jockey from a department store. It is honestly better than shape wear.

      1. Some of these dresses look terrible even on people with flat stomachs because they are so tight that the thigh area is narrower than the hips. That makes anyone look like a weird lollipop, no matter how thin she is.

    8. I swore of sweater dresses for now. I bought two sweater skirts instead and sized up. They are more Pointelle with slight ribbing. So far, it seems to work ok.

  5. I’m going through a bit of a rough patch as I approach 40 and I’m starting to wonder if it’s not more than that. I was passed over for something I wanted at work, which I won’t be up for again for at least a year. I’m not getting a lot of good sleep because of noise (barking dog, ambulance, etc.). We haven’t been able to find a new house to buy in this market. I hurt my neck over a year ago that so it continues to act up on and off. When I told DH I was feeling down this weekend he asked what he could do, but I have no clue. I’ve always been a bit of a pessimist but am usually more resilient. I just feel sad and want to call in sick and doom scroll. I’m sure someone will suggest seeing my doctor and I will do that but it takes months to get in so what do I do in the meantime

    1. Commiseration. I’m going through infertility, dealing with back pain, and un-fun expenses are depleting our emergency fund (new boiler, stove, vet bill). I usually really enjoy being an adult and a homeowner but lately I am fatigued.

      I don’t have any great advice, just trying to take it really easy on myself.

    2. Do you have access to an EAP at work? I think the short term talking to a therapist can be a good bridge if you’re waiting to see your doctor. Ditto for betterhelp (is it THE BEST therapy you’ll ever have? Maybe not, but it’s fast and easy and a good jump start). Can you go somewhere are get a decent weekend of sleep? When I’m not sleeping, nothing else works. Hugs!

    3. You would be surprised at how much bad sleep can affect your mood and cognition. My psychologist very helpfully pointed out to me that there’s a reason that sleep deprivation is used as a form of torture. So fix the sleep part. Can you live somewhere quieter even if you can’t buy? Earplugs? Melatonin?

      Get some exercise during the day. March is a rough time. The exercise will improve your sleep and mood.

      Beyond that, see a doctor.

      1. I get terrible SAD every year, and every year I am SHOCKED when I feel like a new human being again once the clocks spring forward. Don’t underestimate what lack of sleep/sunlight can do to mood.

    4. I feel like perimenopause hit me like a ton of bricks at ~39. It took a while to start to gain some equilibrium but I’d suggest a few things:
      Look into talk therapy (see what your EAP covers and ask around for recs)
      Ask your OB about hormones – if they aren’t receptive look up a doctor that specializes in menopause. The doc I see now is amazing and has made so many tweaks that have genuinely improved my quality of life.
      Get your yearly checkup and rule out any other issues with thyroid/vitamin deficiencies. I started taking a few supplements which helped a ton.
      I did some dermatological interventions around this time which helped get some ‘glow’ back – IPL, microneedling and Sofwave. Ymmv but it helped me feel more confident.

    5. Commiseration! I posted last week wondering about peri and whether it’s making me weepy. (also approaching 40) Last week I had a meltdown over a minor work annoyance, second one in a not, and realized that something isn’t quite right. As short term fix while getting professional support, I recommitted to more healthy habits especially around sleep, and also started journaling. For me, it’s mainly tracking how I feel any given day and spotting patterns of things that affect how I feel. Also an outlet for ruminating thoughts but that is secondary. Not sure yet if it will help, but you don’t know if you don’t try. Sending you good thoughts!

    6. Commiserations. I hate the city we live in, but my husband will not even consider moving due to his job and his elderly parents being nearby. My career is meh at best. I’m definitely not where I thought I would be in life. I usually would plan a fun trip, but we have an old pet with very specific medical needs who can’t be boarded or reliably pet sat, so we can’t travel together for the foreseeable future. We have been doing separate trips, but I miss the two of us getting away together from the daily grind.

      Can you plan something fun to look forward to? Set aside a time each week to hang out with a friend? I’m trying to change up my daily routine to see if it will help my feeling of being stuck.

      1. Sorry to hear you’re going through something too. I wanted to plan something fun for my birthday coming up but it became another disappointment. My husband dropped the ball getting tickets and then it was too expensive to get good seats. I know that is a first world problem but I think this feeling of working so hard to still have all of these things not work out is part of my frustration. I think I’ve been beaten down one too many times that I can’t bring myself to try.

        1. Commiseration. For his milestone birthday, I threw my husband the giant party of his dreams. His friends and family flew in from all over the country, which was his dearest wish. For my birthday a couple of years later, I was supposed to have my own wish for a special solo trip granted. Now our college kid needs a car for required coursework two years before we were planning to give her a car, so there goes my trip. Just like you, I’m tired of working hard and never getting to enjoy what I thought would be the fruits of my labor.

          1. Not that you asked, but I think you should still go on the solo trip! Maybe I’m just being grumpy, or my working class upbringing is showing, but the idea that you “have to” give your kid a car is completely mind-boggling to me.

          2. The school literally asks in the application process for the major if the student will have a car on campus for the required practicum 40 miles away.

        2. A small idea. Your DH asked how he could help and you said you didn’t know, which I think was a good answer at that time. If one of the things that’s contributing is your overlooked and disappointing birthday, then ask him to plan something else for your birthday that will be fun. I doubt the one event was the only thing that you’d enjoy for your birthday. Tell him you want a weekend to celebrate your birthday – and how you want that time divided up (for example, I like about 50% with just DH, 20% with DH and friends or just friends, and 30% to myself doing something I enjoy). Have DH plan the time you want to spend with him and/or with friends – actual plans whether that’s tickets to something else, a weekend away or at a nearby hotel where you could get some great sleep, or just this coffee shop on Saturday, then the museum that Down likes, then lunch at this place, etc.

          1. This would upset me so much! I would tell him you need to have something fun to look forward to and celebrate your birthday even if you can’t do that specific event.

          2. I am having a hard time admitting this to myself to write it here but that will just never happen. He would pay for anything I wanted but he won’t put in the effort to plan or facilitate it. That’s a whole different issue but prob not helping my current mood.

          3. Down, I had to admit this about my DH as well. DH has a lot of wonderful qualities, but he doesn’t and won’t plan anything outside of work and his hobby. For me, accepting that is a price of admission, and a therapist help me see that. I got DH to agree to show up and not complain about anything I plan.
            The past 2 years, I have planned full birthday weekends to celebrate because I love celebrating my birthday. I thought about what I wanted to do and with whom, and then made as much of that happen as I could. I know the idea of doing that right now just sounds like one more thing to add to your plate that you don’t want to do, but I strongly suggest you do it. Alternatively, if you have a friend who would pull together a dinner for you with either just her or with some girlfriends, as her if she will do that. I would do it for a friend who said what you’ve said here. And I hate planning dinners!

    7. Talk to a friend or family member. A lot of these troubles are difficult but normal life stuff. By talking to a friend, you’ll get sympathy, and maybe you’ll even find a way to laugh about this phase of life. Or you’ll hear about their life and realize other people are struggling too, or just get out of your own head for a while. Otherwise, be sure to work out. It’ll help you feel better and sleep better.

    8. Ear plugs for sleep, and black out curtains if you need them.

      Get on the waiting list to see your doc sooner. And call ever AM on your way to work – you can often catch a cancellation and get in.

      Do a few weeks of physical therapy for your neck. Often you can make an appointment yourself without a referral from your PCP, unless you have a strict HMO. PT will involve some massage/manual work and stretching/relaxation – which will feel great. And they will work on your posture/core. All good things.

      And then think about adding some regular massage into your life, or some other mindfulness activity or yoga.

      Get off your cell phone, which is bad for your neck, and take a walk outside. Walking is exercise, and combining it with sunlight is good for your mood.

      Volunteer. You need to get outside of yourself a little.

      You can do it. Good luck.

  6. Help me find a black tie optional wedding guest dress for an August wedding in Aspen (if it matters, the venue is called T-Lazy-7 Ranch). I’ll be 40 by the time of the wedding (!!!), 5’4, size 6/8, short waisted, 34D and would prefer to not accentuate my lower belly area. I’m willing to spend up to $1,500.

    I like this but seems to be sold out in my size. Is this the right vibe for this location/dress code? Does it read too young? I’m struggling with approaching 40 and worrying about dressing too young or too old. https://www.modaoperandi.com/women/p/leo-lin/rayna-bustier-maxi-dress-wildbloom-print/723087

    TIA!

    1. That’s beautiful! But looks a little too formal-structured for the venue, like I’d pick that for a June fancy east coast wedding vs. a mountain in August. Would go with something flowier.

      1. Ah good call. They definitely want us to wear long gowns and they said color is encouraged, so I will look for something long but flowy and maybe I can find a similar floral. Thanks!

    2. 40 is young! You’re old enough to wear something sophisticated, young enough that your skin is still tight. Enjoy!

    3. I love Leo Lin dresses. They have a much bigger selection on their website for what you are looking for. I’d do one of the silk dresses with the architectural flowers for a summer wedding. Their dresses like the one you picked are pretty heavy and very structured, so not much airflow.

    5. I would start by looking at Ralph Lauren for inspiration, and then go from there

    6. I pulled up pictures of the T-Lazy-7 Ranch — they have dozens of photos of weddings that have been held there. I’d look through them, with your potential dress(es) in mind, and ask yourself if you can imagine wearing that dress in that particular space.

      1. I wish my life sounded like yours right now. I recently lost my job at 52 and am scrambling at project work, my elderly parent needed surgery and now I’ve been stuck at her house fetching medicine every few hours and woken by the sound of a loud walker, vet bills and a husband at his wits end taking care of pup while I’m gone. I’m ok though. I share this to mean life will always have stresses, especially as you get older. Sometimes it helps to realize everything is temporary and you’ll make it through this period and on to the next—there are people all around you doing this. I’m getting a chance to use my talents with different people, I’m lucky I have my legs to carry me, and I’m very lucky doggo is still here and will be ecstatic to greet me when I finally get home. Sometimes it’s a bit of perspective. Life isn’t meant to always look perfect and it’s ok to not feel like it’s perfect. Things ebb and flow (and if it’s feeling like too much ebbing, talk with your doctor to make sure hormones, etc are doing OK). It’s ok sometimes to just say this sucks right now.

  7. Do you expect your realtor to talk you out of buying a house? We’re first time home buyers and noticed our realtor rarely says anything negative about a house. In one case there were red flags- this type of issue is expensive to address, the extent of the damage is potentially widespread, and it’s likely an ongoing problem. Our realtor said don’t worry about it for now, put in an offer, and the inspection will reveal any major issues. We relayed our concerns to some experienced homeowners and they told us to run as fast as possible from this property. I understand the realtor is incentivized to get us in a house period, but do you expect that they’ll do their best to veto a bad choice?

    2. You named the incentives, but I do think some are better than others; if you’ve conveyed certain kinds of issues are dealbreakers for you, I’d expect them to respect that at least!

    3. i had a broker who told me not to buy an apartment. Like one specific apartment. but certainly generally a broker wants you to buy something.

    4. Yes, a good one will understand the issues and steer you away. They’re harder to find but worth looking for.

    5. Yes- we had a realtor who was like, this is a bad addition and you shouldn’t buy this house (she was right). We had another realtor who helped us find a structural engineer to address concerns about another addition.

      I think “don’t worry about it for now” is a sign of a bad realtor. Why pay for an inspector to tell you about an issue you already know about?

    6. I don’t expect a realtor to try to talk me out of buying a specific house, even if it has clear red flags. But I wouldn’t expect them to say positive things or be actively encouraging me to put in a offer on a house with clear red flags (absent some unique circumstance, like they know I plan to do a gut rehab or I was saying that the house was prefect expect for X item of concern, but maybe x could be fixed easily).

      After that experience, I would seriously be considering switching realtors because I wouldn’t be able to trust their judgment.

    7. Yes, if that’s what you are asking for. As a counterpoint, last time we bought, we had a decent amount of cash on hand so we took calculated risks on the cost of repair to aggressively negotiate down the purchase price post-inspection. Are you in a market where that’s possible? If so, that may be what the realtor is suggesting without fully explaining to you.

    8. Our realtor pointed out red flags to us when looking at houses, like where to look for water damage and oddly designed things (there was one kitchen where you couldn’t open the dishwasher all the way due to funky cabinets!). I wouldn’t expect them to talk you out of a house you loved, but I would expect them to help you identify issues and price your offer accordingly.

    9. Yes and no. In a hot market, bought about 1.5 years ago, everything went for above asking, often waived contingencies and some all cash offers, and off the market within 5 days. Our realtor would lean into what we conveyed – so if we were like “oh I guess this checks all our boxes, maybe we should put in an offer” she would remind us that we didn’t sound excited and we would know when we found the right house and this might not be it. That said, there was one house that had bad drainage issues in the yard that we were otherwise excited about, and she didn’t steer us away. We ultimately wound up in another house that we (and she) immediately knew was perfect for us. As first time homebuyers we balked at the inspection and she correctly handheld us through that freak out and had a contractor friend of hers review the report and talk to us. But that was like him and her together telling us that some of the stuff we were overwhelmed by was a $15 Home Depot weekend morning DIY (which was true).

      1. +1 – the realtor I used to buy my first place was very much like “this is a rough process and I am here to answer all of your questions, so ask them.” She was very much about pointing out different factors to me (ex. yes, this has the square footage you’re looking for, but is it laid out in a way that will actually work for you, etc.). So she didn’t talk me out of anything, just asked some leading questions that made me think real hard about what I was looking at and the long-term effects of it.

    10. Realtors are not fiduciaries and they don’t have to have your best interest in mind, so no, I do not expect this type of service. It’s nice if you find a realtor who cares enough to steer you away from obvious problems, but this type of feedback is why I invite my contractor relative to tour houses with me.

    11. Agree with the posters below that a good realtor will help point out red flags to be aware of. Sometimes you need to ask pointed questions. Fun anecdote, we almost bought a house next to the home where a notorious mobster was violently killed. Like everyone in the neighborhood knows the story and the realtor didn’t make a peep. I think I would have had some bad feelings if we bought the house and then found it out.

    12. I think you have a bad real estate agent. Mine was down looking under things and inspecting houses right with me.

      1. Did your realtor actually find and warn you of anything? Or was this more of a performative art exhibit intended to get that commission? I’m super cynical and have to remind my spouse that perceived action doesn’t mean they are actually doing anything helpful, nor does it make them qualified to determine anything or compelled to share that information with us.

        1. Yeah he found things, I mean I am very knowledgeable so I would have found them myself but he actually had a few good ideas of how to look behind walls in non destructive ways that I didn’t think of

        2. My realtor noticed that the dining room floor sloped. Brought a marble with her and everything. An inspection revealed a large foundation crack right under that room.

    13. Yes. In one home search during summer 2020, we were buying cross-country, site-unseen. Our realtor straight up would not show us certain homes because they were not good / had weird quirks that didn’t show in the online listing. For our most recent home search, our realtor wasn’t as black/white, but definitely steered us to certain areas and homes because he knew the area so well (and again, it was a cross-country move).

    14. Why would you need your realtor to talk you out of a house when you already saw the red flags? Though it sounds like this realtor is trying to talk you INTO the red flag house, which is a concern yup.

      1. OP here. In this case it was a fluke that we noticed the issue- we don’t know enough about houses to normally spot this stuff on our own. Our realtor might’ve said nothing if we didn’t raise it first. Once we pointed it out the realtor’s approach was put in an offer at asking price, do the inspection, then negotiate with the sellers based on the report. So not exactly talking us into it but not talking us out of it either. The friends and family we consulted on the side said never buy a house with this type of issue.

        I’m worried that we don’t know what to look out for and I’m not sure how much tire kicking is reasonable to expect from our broker.

        1. It’s not a broker’s job. I hold a license in several states and I practice in the commercial space, but the license and training is exactly the same (discussion for another time – the businesses are vastly different.. ). None – zero point zero – of the training is to teach us how to flag any issues in a house. Like – no training whatsoever about the physical real estate. An agent is taught fair housing laws, do very basic mortgage-related math, very basic understanding of legal concepts (think: environmental, encroachment, eminent domain, adverse possession), advertising requirements (redlining, print ads and signage) and a whooole lot about what constitutes a broker/agent relationship and what constitutes a broker/agent and seller relationship – basically, how do you get paid and how do you legal contract yourself to ensure payment.

          SO, all that to say, it’s literally not your agent’s job. Their job is to transact on real estate, which means get you to a closing table. They shouldn’t push you in to a home with flagrant and obvious issues, but no person should, agent or not. If an agent has seen enough and owned their own home, sure, they’ll have Thoughts and have a sense to watch out for wonky things (ie: if you’ve lived in a home without a bathroom outlet, you’re probably going to always first look for a bathroom outlet!) but they’re generally no better qualified than you walking through that house with a sibling, parent or friend as an extra set of eyes. But, it’s not their job and you shouldn’t expect to rely on them for this purpose. You need to bring a trusted contractor out with you sooner in the process if your lack of knowledge is a concern or trust that an inspector will find the things during an inspection.

    15. Mine didn’t talk me out of buying any specific house but she told me what issues could be costly repairs (or not) and encouraged me to think beyond my initial idea (didn’t want a SFH as a single woman but that’s what I bought based on her advice). She was the right fit for me because she looked at what I was comfortable spending versus what I had been approved for and didn’t rush me to make a choice.

    16. I think an excellent agent will tell you if they think a house isn’t for you based on what you’ve told them is important to you.

      It’s a way to build trust and promote long-term business and referrals.

    17. In agreement with others that a few things are true here.
      1) Yes, a good high-quality realtor will raise these with you, especially with a first time buyer
      2) They are not required to act in your best interest and the mid to low-quality ones will just push a house on you

      I would look for another agent

  8. my thoughts on the Oscars fashion in no particular order:
    – Really liked Rose Byrne’s dress. I am a sucker for a dark floral!
    – Ditto Teyana Taylor’s texture (say that 5x fast), so different
    – Chase Infiniti’s color! Unusual and dress was nice too
    – Kristen Wiig looked so comfy!
    – Emma Stone needed a bra
    – Pedro Pascal yummmmm
    – Someone please feed Nicole Kidman a sandwich!

    1. I loved Rose Byrne. I was surprised how safe Teyana Taylor took it last night. It was a lovely dress but very different than what she’s worn so far this awards season.
      Also agreed on emma stone. The bust was really unflattering.

    3. I couldn’t look past the extreme skinny culture we find ourselves in again. Really off-putting. And the frozen-in-time faces.

        1. I think fillers (adding volume but not in a “soft” way) and GLP-1s (subtracting volume and softness).

          Who was it who said that at some point, a woman chooses her face or her a*$? #TeamFace here (and #TeamPasta). That SNL MAHApital skit where they give people steak was not so far off.

          1. I think it was Salma Hayek :)
            I do believe that gaining some weight in my early 30s is why I consistently get carded at 39.

          2. Salma Hayek was quoting Catherine Deneuve! I loved Miles Caton’s monochromatic look.

      2. I am so, so torn on this. I am really trying to rid myself of the idea that we can have opinion on other women’s bodies. And, when I look at Emma Stone, Demi Moore or Nicole Kidman, I am equal parts horrified as what looks like a wealthy woman wasting away (voluntarily, I think) and so angry at them for perpetuating this culture that has done so much damage to so many women, including me. And then I start the thought cycle all over again – none of my business. But I struggled with eating disorders as a young woman, and it is terribly hard to see all the progress I thought we were making stripped away. I can not watch any of them perform anymore – I am too horrified by the bones poking out and in Nicole and Demi’s cases, their poor faces. They were both so lovely.

        1. Honestly, they look like something out of a horror movie, I don’t understand why they seem to be deliberately trying to look like this.

        2. I think it’s ok to call out a social pressure to maintain an unhealthy weight. I am not going to watch shows from directors who turned their gorgeous stars into skeletons or purchase from anyone advertising on unhealthy models.

    4. Emma Stone’s dress was gorgeous… it just needed some adjustments. The neckline was a little too low, and the seam right under (almost across the bottom part of) her chest is… not quite right.

      1. I’m not sure why these fit issues are so common! I was looking at Golden Rooster Awards fashion and realized that I’d already seen dozens of dresses without having these kinds of observations.

    5. As always, the party looks were so much better. I think a lot of the looks this year were fine. There weren’t a lot of wow moments.

    6. I have a decades-long friendship that began (and continues) with our mutual dislike of Gwyneth Paltrow…but I thought she looked really nice. Pedro looked adorable, I liked Sigourney Weaver’s dress as well. I can’t watch Hamnet because I’m basically dead inside, but I thought Jessie Buckley looked wonderful.

    7. Emma Stone has always been very flat-chested –so what would a bra do for her? There’s nothing to support.

  9. Looking for help finding a dress for family photos on Easter. It seems easier to find something workable for fall, not spring, especially given that I’d like my (upper, at least) arms to be covered. Size 8ish, age 40ish, with young kids who’ll be in Easter clothes not yet purchased because my pick will inform everyone else’s. I’ve looked at Boden, which is usually my go-to, but I think I need something with stretch to accommodate my bust, and the linen/cotton dresses I’m finding don’t do that. I’ve opened a billion tabs to no avail and am banging my head against the wall, any help much appreciated!

  10. why do i always want to start decluttering with an area that isn’t taking up mental space like my walk in closet when the piles of clutter on my kitchen counter are right there? Anyone, anyone?

    1. If you make space in your closet, you’ll move a lot of clutter to the closet!

      Kitchen is WIP at all times in my house (annoying dietary restrictions mean all meals are made at home from ingredients) so it’s never going to be cleared to a satisfying degree in my world.

    2. Because the closet (for whatever reason) feels doable and the kitchen counter (for whatever reason) feels overwhelming.

    3. I get stuck in this loop a lot and what always works for me is gamifying it just a bit. When I’m avoiding an overwhelming task, I break it in to very small components, or into very small blocks of time. Today, I’m trying to get cleaning in the home office but I really want to read my book, so i play five songs on spotify while I’m cleaning then reward myself with 15 mins of reading. I use this same approach when my email is too full – I set myself a number (like 50) or a letter in the alphabet and then clear out either than number of emails, or all whose sender’s last name starts with that letter of the alphabet. The reward is key!

    4. The closet feels worthy of main project energy, while the kitchen feels like stuff that should just happen.

  11. Random church admin question here. IDK if churches charge for weddings. I am positive that churches don’t charge for baptisms (because it’s part of their ministry). Churches running daycares or preschools typically do charge and may charge different rates to congregants vs public at large (or have different wait lists). Many churches have various ministries that rely on adult volunteers (and sometimes some paid staff) and may serve their congregants as well as broader communities.
    Which of these would you expect a church to charge a fee (of about $1000, maybe for AV support and/or cleanup) for the use of a common church space (one not already devoted to a program):
    — graduation ceremony for preschool kids and their families
    — Christmas pageant
    — Girl Scout troop sponsored by the church for a ceremony for Gold Award recipients and their families
    — bereavement support group
    — church sponsored language skills practice group for ESL outreach group

    I am not sure that many groups could fund the ask or can engage in fundraising, or if it is really fair to ask. A group wants to monetize a space we did a capital campaign for and it’s a very well-funded church. I don’t think it’s a good look to ask outreach or our own ministries to reach into their pockets, especially for the adult volunteers who run many of these things.

    1. My home parish did charge a ‘donation’ fee for our wedding, plus the music director was paid seperately. It wasn’t a ton of money, maybe $500 plus $200ish for the music? Most Catholic churches won’t let you have a wedding there unless you’re a parishioner, maybe that’s different for different religions?
      I’d expect the use of a church hall to be ‘free’ for all of the uses above, although I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a cleaning/set-up fee for any groups needing to use furniture or access food prep areas.

    2. I’ve never been in a church that would charge participants for any of those events, and every church I’ve ever attended would have had all of those other than the Girl Scout group. I even taught ESL for years at one mega SBC church, and it was treated as just another Sunday school class, even though my students almost certainly never contributed to the church budget or even attended the regular service. It would never have occurred to anyone to charge tuition. Ick.

    3. We would not charge the groups you list above any fee, assuming that the preschool were affiliated with the church.

      Charging for weddings is more typical. It would also be reasonable for the church to charge a nominal facility fee and/or fees for A/V services and cleaning to outside groups, but $1,000 seems steep.

    4. Are these external groups that just want to use the space? A small fee to cover costs seems normal.

      1. No — it’s not like it’s another church’s scout group or something like Rotary wanting a large meeting space. The little kids can make a mess. Everything makes a mess. But we (not me, but someone at the church) is getting known for counting every cheerio left on the floor out of the nursery space while we all know that parents and teachers try their best to leave the space tidy. Accidents can happen (but they are the same accidents that could happen at any service or in a sunday school classroom). It’s just so . . . not Christian feeling, especially for a church of the 1%.

        1. A church of the 1% is the most likely, not the least, to count cheerios and to charge internal groups for the use of a room.

          1. +1

            In my experience, smaller churches basically just care that whoever left last remembered to turn the lights off and lock the doors. Larger megachurches have a fee to join the church’s women’s bible study and that fee goes toward room rental in the church itself. It’s a very corporate way of operating to monetize basic church functions like that.

          2. Yeah, in my experience this is more a function of size than of wealth. The bigger you are, the more you (reasonably) formalize processeses and all that goes with it

          3. Formal processes and cash grabs are different things. You can have a formal process for reserving a room without charging the cost of the room back to the ministry. Providing these ministries is a core function of the church. Members are already donating to support those core functions, some of which benefit the members (e.g., bible study) and some of which are outreach ministries (e.g., ESL classes). Bean-counting like charging the women’s bible study for its classroom is nuts and is different from asking class members to purchase their own books.

        2. so like… who is being asked to pay for the Christmas pageant? Parents of the participating kids? I’m confused who’s being asked to open their wallet.

          1. What non-church group is putting on a Christmas pageant in the first place? And who is attending? That’s what I find odd.

          2. IDK — maybe the preschool was asked to write a check to use a big meeting space? Or add it to their budget when setting fees for parents using the preschool?

            I don’t think that Sunday Schools are anything but a cost for craft supplies and rely on 100% volunteer teachers. If we had a pageant, we just booked the space and I’m sure that there was minimal (but not zero) mess. Our church does pay a Sexton but we try to leave as little trace of our presence as possible.

        3. This is what I was wondering. Scouts is an external organization, so I’d expect they should pay. If the preschool is external, same deal. If the pageant is a church event, I’m not even sure who would be paying (is the church going to pay itself or what?).

          Private family events like weddings and funerals can be charged or donation based. (I’m actually not sure how it works if they are public events or open to the whole parish or the community at large, but that’s not how it’s done where I live.)

          1. At least for Scouts BSA (fka the Boy Scouts), churches often “sponsor” troops. Many include it as a youth ministry item or youth outreach as part of their mission (others just give them space but don’t interact much). I don’t see them as “outside” organizations like the Lions. My church sponsors an AA group and IDK if they charge them for the use of the space and the coffee. If they do, I hope it is truly a nominal fee, like $25 or so, not $$$. It is sort of what churches are supposed to do, no? They can’t staff all that and rely on volunteers to run various programs.

          2. In my small town, if there is expected to be a funeral crowd of such size that the local funeral home cannot accommodate them, there is one church with a larger sanctuary and there is the high school auditorium. The fee of renting either is included in the funeral costs, unless the church or school chooses to waive their fee. The church will often waive if there is a connection to the church, and the school will waive it if it was a student, teacher, etc.

    5. A substantial part of our church’s budget is space rentals, for example to non-affiliated music ensembles for rehearsal space etc.

      1. The key here is “non-affiliated.” But even for a non-affiliated group, $1,000 a session for a rehearsal space is outrageous.

        1. I think this is greatly dependent on the facility in question. $1,000 does sound outrageously steep for the small church building with 10 rows of wooden pews and a fellowship room in the basement. For the stadium-seating auditorium with balcony? The auditorium lights alone cost hundreds dollars to run for an entire day, and the sound system requires a trained technician. Add in the cost to condition the space, have the facilities staff reconfigure the stage for the rehearsal, clean the backstage area, reassemble the drum kit and wheel the baby grand back in place for the next church service? That’s not such a wild fee.

          1. The only group I’ve ever been part of that has rehearsed on an actual stage was a professional symphony orchestra. Community music ensembles that rehearse in churches typically rehearse in the gym or the choir room, unless it’s a dress rehearsal with the organ in the sanctuary.

          2. In a past life I was on staff at a megachurch that was rented out as a concert venue (by rock bands whose names you know). The church absolutely charged those bands for their rehearsal times, and when the local orchestra wanted to rehearse on the stage in advance of their actual performance, they charged them, too.

            This was not a facility with an organ, nor a basement (unless you counted the tunnels the security and groundskeeping crews used to drive under the campus).

          4. Those are dress rehearsals for ticketed professional concerts. Presumably the rock band can afford the $$$$. Much different from a community ensemble’s regular weekly rehearsal.

    6. I am on the board of/a congregational leader in a downtown church with a massive amount of meeting/event space that is in heavy use.

      In general, we charge fees for any outside group that wishes to use our space; we’re about the most affordable room rental available in our part of town but we do charge a fee. We charge church-affiliated groups (either those that are formally part of our ministry activities or that are led by church members and approved by the board) *only* the fees that it costs us to have the building open for them (e.g. if the meeting takes place during business hours no charge, if it requires an early open/late close then the bill is the cost of the staff who must be present to open/close).

      The pastor does have some discretion to adjust fees “as a ministry of kindness” but typically all rentals and fee arrangements go through the administrative office and not via the pastor.

      In your list, the ESL outreach group would clearly be on the lower fee schedule. The Christmas pageant *very* likely would be, too, but if in some really unusual way it didn’t actually include congregants or amount to a ministry activity I suppose it could be charged as an outside group. The other events would probably be on the “standard building use fee” charge.

    7. If it were a ministry sponsored by the Church, I certainly wouldn’t want the volunteers running it to be self funding space usage fees! If it were necessary to charge for the space (and there are real heating, electricity, cleaning, security, insurance costs to opening a space), and the participants couldn’t/shouldn’t be asked to pay, then that is a big picture church conversation about whether we can support this ministry at this level.

      It’s actually pretty common for Catholic churches to charge for use of the space for weddings and (outside of regularly scheduled services) Baptisms, or sometimes kids’ programs, etc; although always with a way to make it work for families that can’t afford the fees (ie we certainly don’t want anyone to skip getting married because they can’t afford it! But if they’re able to spend many thousands of dollars on the reception, it seems just that they cover the cost of using the actual church building too rather than having the church community spend our very limited funds on subsidizing that rather than another urgent need. But if you’re trying to get married on a strict budget, we’ll make it work)

      But fundamentally, I’m not sure “should we charge or not” is the question to ask the internet – do you trust and respect the people who are advocating for charging, in the context of this specific space for your specific church? Do you understand their reasoning? Do they understand your concerns and take them seriously, and have thoughts on how to mitigate? This sounds like a question that’s really about “how do I go have this difficult conversation?” not a time to crowd source “but the Internet says I’m right!!”

    8. Paying fees for a wedding is normal. We paid a sizeable fee for our wedding in cathedral but that also went they had to forgo tour group admission revenue during our wedding.

    9. I thought donation “fees” for weddings were pretty standard. I was raised Catholic and always heard about this, though had a Jewish wedding (my husband is Jewish) and we definitely paid a four figure donation which is consistent from what I’ve heard from Catholic family as well.

    10. Grew up in the church, numerous pastors in the family. All of the above might be available for a fee, although it is not unusual for a church to turn down any secular group or any religious group if there is not a church member involved or associated with the proposed event.

      None of the many, many churches we pastored or attended would open the building to an outside group for any of these types of events without charging some sort of fee, unless maybe it was the ESL program that got bumped from its home church due to some type of scheduling conflict for one or two occurrences.

      1. Would you make church-sponsored groups fundraise to pay for their use of the space though (or one-time uses of spaces for an event)?

          1. I assume they meant sponsored by some other church. But presumably that other church either has their own space or is renting anyhow, and renting space for the event should be expected as part of the cost of sponsoring the event.

        2. You mean, groups our own church sponsored, like our own AA group or youth group? No. Of course not. That’s what the building is for. Budget areas might get charged for their share of sound tech salary, building cost, or janitor cost, if the accounting system is set up to parse things out that way. Most churches don’t parse budgets out in that detailed of a way.

          At times, we have had groups from other churches use our space, or even other churches use it, who held their services on a Sunday afternoon or evening, after ours were over. We did ask those groups to pay to rent the space. (It’s a LOT of work to use your building as an event space, as church staff is always drawn into doing admin, answering questions, being a liason, solving problems, repairing what gets damaged or worn out, etc.)

        3. Sponsored by the church hosting it? No, that would basically involve the church writing a check to itself. The leadership would need to approve the use of the space, though, it’s not okay for a random member to just decide the building is going to be used for something. And if there was A/V or setup needed, the church would pay the A/V guy for his time and would require someone from the group to do/coordinate the setup and cleanup.

          But another church? Yes, we would require them to pay unless there were extenuating circumstances. something like the other church’s pipes burst, the other church was holding a funeral service that interfered with a regularly scheduled event, etc. We wouldn’t dictate how they come up with the funds to pay, we just wouldn’t take on the cost of hosting their event ourselves.

          1. The church would be writing a check to itself, but the money would move between funds or accounts. The people who want to charge are basically telling the various ministries using the space that each ministry needs to fund-raise to cover all of its own costs, and that the church as a whole does not support the ministry. Totally unacceptable.

            Charging outside groups to use the space is different.

          2. Are those people in a role where they have authority to dictate this? Is there a larger denominational oversight board? Are there bylaws or some other governing document that comes into play here?

          3. @12:54: Ah . . . I finally understand what is going on. Someone at your church wants all the different departments or areas to pay for their facility use out of their own designated fund, and if they don’t have the money in the fund, they need to figure out a way to get it in there (charge, fundraise, etc.)

            Yeah . . . that’s not a thing. I’ve NEVER heard of a church doing that, probably because there are so very, very few people who would even suggest it. Unfortunately, one of them seems to go to your church and has some kind of position of influence or power.

    11. Our church charges outside groups for:
      • Facility rental. Fees are based on which room(s) are being used.
      • Cleaning fees to cover the extra cleaning fee from our janitorial company.

      Following people are paid directly, and the church doesn’t make any money off these fees: sound tech, coordinator or staff person who must be onsite during the event, officiant, musicians

      These are OUTSIDE groups.

      Internal groups don’t get charged anything. Church members pay a reduced rate if they use church space for a personal event that has no connection to the church (kid’s birthday party, graduation party, etc.).

    12. I am wishing I could remember what happened when my kids went through confirmation. I think that there was maybe a $100 fee per kid, maybe for some books and a big reception after the confirmation service. Lots of volunteer labor. But it was once per lifetime, so didn’t seem excessive. But if it’s a recurring event, like a weekly AA meeting and a lot of money, yikes.

      1. I think charging for sacraments is always yikes. But maybe it was optional for the reception?

        1. It’s tricky – charging for the Sacraments is always yikes (and in Catholic world, an actual crime). Charging for the use of space or for prep classes isn’t *charging for the actual sacraments*; although it obviously comes at a high risk of being perceived that way. Many dioceses regulate the charges to make sure they stay nominal/aren’t a “profit center” for churches; and a church *should* always make it clear they’ve got a scholarship fund or waivers or whatever else is needed to make sure the sacraments are available to anyone who cannot pay

          1. Yeah. Unfortunately I’ve gotten the impression that it’s kind of nice to have a congregation of people who don’t sweat a hundred bucks, and making anyone else uncomfortable is a win win.

          2. Genuinely, that would be a strong reason to consider changing churches for me (if it’s a widespread cultural thing; not just one jerk on the finance committee); and I am usually a diehard “you go to the nearest church” person not a church-shopper. I am willing to put a lot of time into working with oblivious folks; and I have a TON of empathy for people who have to hold the “yes, we’re a non profit but that doesn’t mean we can do everything for free” line; but I wouldn’t think a church that is *intentionally* trying to filter out the poor/children/the messy is healthy in other ways…

    13. Seems unchristian to me to charge for the items you listed. I was formerly on the vestry, and the only thing we charged for was the two congregations that shared our building as their building (the Korean congregation on Sunday afternoons and the African one mid-week).

      1. It doesn’t seem helpful to me to just characterize charging as “Un Christian”. If, for example, a Church can sponsor 3 ministries “fully” (ie. Cover all the staffing, all the space costs, etc) or 10 ministries “partially” (Maybe charge a break-even fee for space but staff them with volunteers; or charge less than the private sector equivalent; or charge the full cost to those who can pay but offer significant scholarships for those who can’t); why is Option B intrinsically “more Christian”?

        Paying your Church’s cleaning and maintenance staff a just wage for the amount of work they do is also Christian; and heavy usage of a space requires more cleaning and maintenance

        I’d be more concerned about whether the Church has clear, transparent policies, respectfully communicated – don’t embarrass people asking for scholarships, don’t make people guess what the cost will be, keep an eye on how your charging decisions are impacting access & utilization & how that does or doesn’t map with your Church’s goals

        But unless the Finance Council meeting is going like “we really need a new 100k luxury SUV for Pastor Bob to replace last year’s model; who can we scrape the cash out of?”, I wouldn’t jump to call the “we should charge” folks unchristian

      2. Seems way more “unchristian” to charge literal christian congregations than to charge for a preschool party.

    14. I’ve been on the vestry at two (Episcopal) churches. External groups typically have a fairly nominal fee – the community choir that rehearses in our space pays $750/year to use the church, piano, organ, and hall for 2 hours/week during the school year and 4 performances. AA/NA/Alanon typically pay by the meeting – generally $1.00/member/meeting, but it is considered a donation and not a fee – we average $35 per week across 9 meetings. A local condo association pays $100 for their annual meeting, which is in line with what we charge for other one offs like birthday parties or baby showers.

      We charge $500 for a non-member’s wedding at my current church, which is kind of plain looking and in a boring location. Another church I attended had a gorgeous, traditional building on Main St in a historic downtown, and they charged $1000/ (non-member) wedding, as people often asked to use the church because it was pretty.

      The local scout troops use the church for free, and all of our outreach ministries use it for free. The music director uses the piano and organ without charge for lessons as part of his contract. Members are married/buried/confirmed/baptized what have you for free, although a donation for a wedding or funeral is not unusual.

    15. At my church, the answer would be “it depends”. When we ran out own preschool, we did not charge for use of the facilities, although parents obviously paid for the preschool itself. We now rent our old pre-school space for a secular preschool and if they wanted to use a space not in their lease we would charge them for it.

      Funerals are free. We charge for weddings (Our clergy will perform the ceremony for free but if you want to use the space for a big wedding with guests, flowers, etc. that requires cleanup that costs us money.). Baptisms and confirmation are free. Normally those take place during a regular Sunday service so there is no added cost. If you need an emergency baptism for an infant who might not survive, our clergy will obviously come to the hospital and do that for free as well, along with last rites.

      Scouts, PFLAG, a local program for LGBTQ youth, 12-step programs, and bereavement support all use our meeting spaces for free. However, we do charge other organizations.

      We have to disclose how many people we have on site every week on average, and it has a big impact on our insurance costs, along with staffing, utilities, etc. If we were rolling in money it might be different, but at the end of the day we need to keep the lights on.

      1. The insurance thing is HUGE and not immediately evident to groups that think “how much can it actually cost, $20 in lights, heating and water?”

    16. My Episcopal church charges for weddings. It’s a nominal fee for parishioners and a more substantial one for people who aren’t parishioners. This makes sense to me – it’s a religious institution that is also a nice “venue” in a big city. About a third of our income is from renting out parts of our underused real estate, I imagine other churches have similar income streams.

      I’d expect them to charge for an outside preschool graduation ceremony and a non-affiliated Christmas pageant (though I doubt we’d get asked). The Gold Award ceremony, the support group, and the ESL practice group…I doubt they would charge, except maybe a nominal fee.

      Frankly, I don’t think monetizing church space is per se bad, but it’s important to do it in conjunction with the church’s values. IMO, it’s not fair to put the onus on volunteers to staff events, paying responsible people to work for the church is a good thing.

      1. Related: I’m very grateful that our local Lutheran church allows Girl Scouts to meet for free in their community hall. We had to sign a contact (which put us on the hook for a nominal cleaning fee if we left a mess) and give them a copy of our insurance policy (which was no big deal). They have the means and the space to do it, not every institution can make that decision.

    17. Although I am an attorney, I’m not your attorney, so get legal advice on this. I would lean towards charging at least a nominal fee, getting an agreement in writing, and also requiring groups to have some sort of insurance so that their insurance is hit before yours. Talk to your insurer as well as to whether or not they would cover unaffiliated groups on your premises.

        1. Sigh. No. She isn’t talking *exclusively* about affiliated groups. Even so, why’s the church considers affiliated and what the church’s insurance company so consider may not be the same thing. Hence, check with your insurance company.

  12. Interesting Oscars observation: scroll through the pics and see how many pairs of pointy toe black pumps you see. Some kind of work with the dress, some really don’t. Office shoes on the red carpet – who knew?

      1. I saw one satin, a couple patent, and leather / unknown. Not a typical evening shoe in cut or style, though.

        1. They are the Gianvito Rossi pumps that are one of the few comfortable enough to stand in all night as someone over 35 years old, and come in a million colors. Once you realize what they are, you will realize just how many people are wearing them.

          1. OMG I see those all the time on Queen Mary of Denmark and a ton of other European royals. Have never seen in the wild in the US.

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