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Thursday’s Workwear Report: Amsterdam Cardigan

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

Summer = air conditioning = bring me all the sweaters. I like the drape of this marigold cardigan. It looks like it would go nicely over dresses or a variety of blouses. If you’re looking for a neutral to keep in the office, this also comes in black, cream, and gray — but if you want more color, it also comes in blush pink and burgundy.

The sweater is $95 and available in sizes XS–2X. Amsterdam Cardigan

A lower-priced option is from Bobeau; it's $17 (sale price) in straight sizes and $24 in plus sizes. 

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361 Comments

  1. For those who have different political views than your partners—how do you navigate the difference of opinion? Do you discuss politics, and if so, how? Do you have advice for preserving marital harmony?

    1. Husband and I did when we first started dating (I was/am a democrat, he was a republican). We talked about politics a lot, but our differences were more on the economic side of politics than on social issues, which I think helps. It was like back in the old days when Republicans and Democrats could have civil conversations about differing policy positions… (Husband’s views have evolved much more than mine over the years-he went from registered Republican to Libertarian to Independent. Trump was the last straw for him and we are now both registered Dems and I honestly don’t think he’ll ever vote Republican for any statewide or national office again.)

      1. A big reason I stay in the republican party is to vote in primaries. I am in a purple state (but in a blue city, each race has a slightly different constituency), so it absolutely matters who the R candidate is. In many local races, the D will win anyway, so I charge my friends with weeding out their nutty candidates and return the favor as best I can so that we have good option A or good option B.

    2. We find it more positive to send each other thoughtful articles by third parties that we read on different topics.Depersonalizes it a bit. We don’t always discuss after but helpful in understanding how different people think about things. That said, we don’t have very significant differences. I couldn’t be with someone who was a Trump supporter as I think that goes to different incompatible values.

    3. Like, how different? Trump supporting vs. Bernie supporting?

      I would probably be willing to discuss smaller topics, like local ordinances, and topics that affect your life together, like how schools are funded and which schools the kids should go to. If it’s about foreign policy or something, a spirited debate is fine if you’re both into that but probably not even that. I just think there’s too much potential for hurt feelings.

      1. There is overlap between Trump and Bernie supporters, fyi. I know several people (all white men) who like both.

        3. Trust me I know. I was just trying to get an answer to how different.

          Fine. Trump supporter vs Warren supporter

          Trump supporter vs Biden supporter

    4. I fall into this category….not only do we have a Democrat/Republican split in my marraige, but a Yankees/Red Sox one, too (which was seriously problematic in the early 2000s)! We try to save serious conversations for a time when we’re both mentally and emotionally able to have a serious conversation…and then base what we’re talking about in facts when possible. I always try to veer away from making any of it personal, and always appeal to whatever common value, goal, understanding, or belief we share when trying to explain my position. DH and I share similar values, so when we frame a debate/topic in that context it’s easier to discuss in a productive way. I don’t try to “convert” DH because that’s unreaslistic, but I try to break down the bigger issues into smaller ones and try to actually keep an open mind and listen to what’s being said and why it’s being said. IME, if you can discuss things respectfully, the political debate can take a backseat to the personal connection.

      When all else fails, agree to disagree.

      1. I think the Yankees/Red Sox thing is way more troublesome than the Democrat/Republican split. Congrats on staying married through that one! :-)

      2. If you have similar values then one of you must not be living your values when it comes to politics though, right? The gap is really just too big between the parties now.

    5. It helps me to keep in mind that there dozens and dozens of political outlooks that aren’t a big part of our system. It’s hard for me to imagine two people having the same political views as opposed to the same voting patterns, just because there are so many opinions a person can have that have a political dimension? So it’s no wonder that these are reflected in supporting different candidates sometimes. I think it can also help to keep in mind that a lot of our politicians are just awful, awful human beings, separately from their politics, but that side taking can blind people to some of the basic human decency issues with their candidates. I’m more hurt if I assume someone genuinely thinks their candidate is a good human being that should be admired and emulated vs. just the best available person to vote for.

      1. I agree with everything here and this is how I deal with the political divide in our household.

    6. My husband and I fall into this category – I think it depends largely on two things: how different and how much do you care about the issues generating those differences. I don’t think, for instance, a hard-core Trump supporter and a hard-core Bernie supporter could work, but my husband and I are both moderates – me a moderate Republican, him a moderate Democrat (we live in MA – so moderate is a real breed of politician here, ha). Most of our differences are economic/fiscal policy – not social issues, which I think can be much more difficult to navigate. I can’t imagine being married to someone who was anti-LGBTQ+ rights, for instance – it’s just such a fundamental difference in the way we see the world and the role of religion, etc etc. But at the same time, I also couldn’t imagine being married to someone who was a die-hard true Socialist. We’ll debate economic issues at times, but ultimately, and most importantly, we respect each other’s positions, and on the issues that really matter to us, we’re on the same page.

    7. My husband and I share very similar political beliefs (which happens when you meet through political activism and a think tank). Before him, I dated someone of opposite beliefs for a long time. That fell apart for other reasons, completely unrelated to politics.

      Some of the problem comes about when people have different views of what politics means to them. It’s easier if it doesn’t matter much to either person, or if you are both committed to learning about issues and voting in all elections, even the boring municipal ones.

      Likewise, I can find common ground with the activists who are like me, regardless of where they land on the political spectrum. I poll watch every Election Day, knock doors, have been involved in some “Baptist and Bootlegger” type coalitions, lobby elected officials, and have written legislation. My counterparts are people whom I can easily have a conversation with. But the keyboard warriors and slactivists make me rage-stroke.

      The big thing is to spend time talking about why someone feels that way. This often comes about through their own experiences – just not in the superficial way people think about it. A lot of studies have much broader conclusions than the data support. People vary on how they think of risk, which direction to err on the side of, and what weight they give to certain values.

    8. We try really hard not to talk politics. This was no problem pre-Trump, but has admittedly become more difficult for me the past several years.

    9. You can make it work. Born and raised socialist happily married to a Trump supporter here. This combination has made us both more moderate. First, one has to see where the other side is coming from, and make an effort to try and understand. Second, its fine to drop hot topics and agree to disagree. Third, life is much too short to fight with family about politics.

      1. You sound clinically insane though. You can’t possible truly hold your socialist beliefs and be married to (which presumes respect but maybe not) someone who supports Trump.

  2. Has anyone has a LEEP procedure? [It’s a procedure after you’ve had a bad pap smear to remove suspicious tissue.] My doctor hasn’t had one, so her knowledge is on the procedure-doer side vs the experience-lived side. I’m done having kids, so any fertility impairing issues aren’t a concern for me. It’s more: how knocked off my feet will I be after (the day I had my biopsy, I couldn’t sit or walk without it hurting, so I just rested in bed and was back to 100% the next day); how bad is the discharge (and how long); and how much activity can you do (vanity: I have the COVID-15 to lose already and I guess I can’t swim it off in the pool after this). Thanks!

    1. Yes, I wouldn’t go to the gym the same afternoon but I was fine the next day.

    2. I had one in my mid-20’s, and DO NOT do what I did which was believe the doctor who said it would only involve ‘mild discomfort’ and that drugs were not necessary. I about leapt off the table during the snipping part. FWIW I also had an IUD inserted pre-children and have a pretty high pain tolerance in general but this was worse. Make sure you are/will be fully numb, no shame in asking for IV drugs if you are very nervous, but I’d think a Xanax and lidocaine would have covered it for me.
      Do not drive yourself home! Even if a partner cannot come in with you try to make sure you have a ride. As I recall I only had mild cramping over the next few days, but the spotting and uh, discharge were pretty gnarly and you (obviously) can’t wear a tampon. I took 2 days off work (worked in a conservative office and didn’t want to deal with heavy discharge in suiting) but I could have worked at home during that time if it had been an option. I felt back to normal about about 2 days, but the discharge did continue for about 5 days as I recall. I also lean anemic so I had iron/b12 pills that I was taking after – you may want to ask about that – the Trader Joes sublingual b12 pills are great.
      Good luck!

      1. Wow- I’m sorry you had that experience. Mine was not bad at all, and I don’t recall any pain. It must vary wildly.

    3. I had a LEEP several years ago (pre-babies FWIW, and now have two kids so it was no issue there either). I was totally fine the next day. I lived (live) in NYC, so I walked home from the appointment. Or maybe went back to work? Honestly, I can’t remember because it was not a big deal at all. I did not take any pain medication. The discharge lasted two-ish weeks? That was the most unpleasant part for me.

      I read lots of scary stories online before I had it, but it turned that I had a very easy experience.

    4. I asked for and received Valium for the procedure. I walked home from the appointment (a few blocks) so it wasn’t that bad but I needed the Valium because I have a Vasovagal response to having my cervix touched.

      I was glad I have the Valium but in hindsight I probably didn’t need to send all those “I love you” texts to just about everyone I know while under the influence.

    5. Can you do cryo instead? I think my doctor recommended this, or a cone biopsy – some outpatient procedure that was somewhat invasive. I asked for cryo instead to freeze off the abnormal cells based on my friends experience. She did the cryo in her office and I don’t remember any discomfort after and maybe minimal during the procedure (this was 9 years ago). I do believe you had to abstain from gardening and no tampons for 2 weeks. I had 3-4 years of constant abnormal pap smears and have been normal since the cryo 9 years ago.

    6. You should know that some women don’t enjoy sex becuase of LEEP procedures. I am not advising whether or not you should have the procedure, but I do think you should know that risk before consenting.

  3. My partner just purchased a new car and the leather smell is so incredibly strong. It’s like nothing I’ve ever smelled before and I’ve always had leather in my cars. It’s so strong it’s making me sick every time I get in there. It’s a napa leather so I don’t know if that has anything to do with it. Any suggestions on making it smell less intense? We are taking a road trip soon and I cannot imagine spending that much time in there with that smell.

    1. I guess I’d leave all the doors and/or windows open for as long as it takes, if you can park the car in a safe place.

    2. I bought a leather jacket from Nordstrom a few years ago that was like this. I loved the jacket and I am a difficult size so I kept it, but whew! I literally hung it on my screened porch for months before the scent dissipated to the point that I could wear the jacket. Sorry that isn’t much help, but I agree that airing is good. Maybe you can ask SO to drive around with the windows open to the maximum extent possible.

    3. An open container of baking soda to absorb the smell? Put it in the cupholder or door cubby. If you’re going to leave it in there while driving, empty it out enough that it won’t spill.

    4. Talk to the dealership. There is some scent free deodorizing process they can do. I bought a slightly used car that smelled like weed. They ran this process on it and it had zero smell after. The downside is it took away some of the new car smell but for you that seems to be the plan.

    5. https://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/store/product/fresh-wave-reg-6-pack-odor-removing-packs/1046180278?keyword=air-freshener

      I use these Fresh Wave odor neutralizers in my car, they work well. My husband ate some extremely potent garlic fries and left the bag in the car overnight once. I bought these and it removed the odor. There are other forms, too, linked to this product so you have the brand name and can see the packaging. I bought this for my brother’s truck too, he keeps his workout gear in there.

    2. I’ve had an LLB braided rug in my son’s room for the last 10 years. Still looks like new.

  5. I am so burnt out that I haven’t been able to work all week. Taking tomorrow off and working from home today, but I need to focus and get a few things done today. Tips for powering through when you’re mentally fried?

    Also would appreciate suggestions on what to do tomorrow to recuperate! Yellow phase so can’t get my nails done, but am getting drinks with friends on Saturday

    1. Boy, I feel that. I find that when I’m in that space, doing something — anything, even if it’s the easiest thing on my list — gives me some momentum. I also use timers a lot when I’m fried. You can do anything for 20 minutes; usually starting is the hardest part.

      1. Yep, Pomodoro method is really helpful here. And making a big list and doing a power hour – music on, batching items, and checking as many things off the list as quickly as possible.

    2. Pick something small – anything. Don’t worry about starting with the right thing – just start. Don’t aim for perfection. Your goal is adequacy.

      1. +1. Use the snowball effect like you’re tackling debt: start with a small thing and just get it done (not necessarily perfectly). Then do the next smallest thing. And then the next. Getting started is the hardest part.

      2. Yep. I remember from college when I’d be paralyzed over writing a paper that you just need words on a page. Just start. It doesn’t have to be perfect.

  6. I need some new racerback bras to wear with tank tops. Any recommendations? I remember having one from Gap Body ages ago but haven’t bought one in years. I’m a 36B, for reference.

    1. Real bras or sports bras? I like the light support racer back Sports bras at Old Navy. They are fine for around the house, light workouts, errands etc.

    2. I like Victoria’s Secret racerbacks. And, there is a sale going on now, I believe.

      1. Any racerbacks f with strong support for person who usually wears sturdy, underwire, minimizer bra for everyday?

        1. I love the Tru and Co ones. I was a die hard underwire-only wearer for a 32E and I don’t think I’ll ever wear a wire one again.

  7. DH and I are casually tossing around the idea to replace our 8-year-old minivan. We have two kids and they aren’t tiny anymore, so it seems like wasted space at times. On the other hand, it’s possible that carpools will be more of a thing for us starting in 2021, when our oldest kid enters middle school. Any ideas for a family-friendly vehicle? We’re more interested in an SUV than a car, mainly for the cargo space when we travel, haul things from the lumber yard, etc. The minivan is surprisingly good for all those things. Our second car is a Subaru Outback — great car, but it can’t haul much. I’ve been casually looking at the Honda Pilot, but it doesn’t necessarily *excite* me.

    2. SUVs are horrendous for the environment and more likely to kill pedestrians and cyclists in crashes. You can drive two kids and carpools and stuff in less of a “f*ck the planet” vehicle. I have an old Outback too and it can haul a ton.

      1. +1. My parents drove a VW Touran right up until when my younger brother finished high school- it was great for loading up with teenagers for theme park carpools or sports matches and also for moving to university.

        1. Isn’t the gas mileage on minivans vs suvs pretty much the same these days? Is there a real environmental advantage to picking a minivan?

          1. Minivan gas mileage is more similar to a mid-sized SUV but they carry 7-8 people so work for carpools. The full size three row SUVs you need for 7-8 people are gas guzzlers compared to most minivans.

          2. I only looked at one minivan, but an Odessey was 19 city / 28 highway compared to like 20/27. So yes better by 1 mpg but I wouldn’t say that kind of difference is a guzzler or really very significant. Neither options are great.

          3. What suv are you comparing it to? 20/27 is not average for a full size non hybrid suv

          4. Mazda CX-9, Suburu Ascent, Honda Pilot, Toyota Highlander, etc are all in that ballpark… maybe things have changed since you last looked at them?

      2. Point taken that I shouldn’t buy an *eff the planet* vehicle, but as I said, I already have an Outback. I strongly disagree that it hauls a lot.

        1. Have you thought about a Forester? Hardly an “eff the planet” SUV, and more cargo space.

          2. Yes, but Forester have slightly more cargo space and the configuration may be more helpful for hauling stuff.

      3. I’m a pretty big tree hugger but SUVs just make sense for families. How would you recommend she carpools in a sedan, especially if the children are too young for the front seat?

        Carpooling is a great option because it’s both green and it helps out busy parents. If she’s in an SUV with 3 rows, she can take kids from multiple other families, which is More preferable Than multiple families driving the same route!

          2. Ok she did not say she was out shopping for a Hummer or any of the other massive gas guzzlers. She specifically mentioned a Pilot which gets quite comparable gas mileage to a any of Subaru’s models, especially when you use their Eco mode. All the cars in this size class from Kia, Hyuandai, and Toyota do too.
            You only get marginal mileage improvement sizing down to a 2 row SUV

          3. IMO that basically all permutations of the Chevy Traverse (the 3-row thingie that comes in other brand/configurations) and any minivan. I carpooled to camp today where the gear would have taken up the third row (I have an Odyssey) and it will be a couple of years before any of these kids could ride up front (by then they will be even larger, so possibly not comfortably seating all kids if we go to our max cacpaity of 8 poeple). When we have scouts in the car, the gear level is like having newborns again.

            My driving miles this week are half of what they’d be if I couldn’t carpool.

        2. Minivans – much safer for pedestrians. Worry more about people getting hurt and less about being cool.

          Signed, I have three kids, a dog, hike and camp and do various home reno all the time.

          2. I am so confused by this. How are minivans safer for pedestrians than SUVs? Blind spots? I felt much more dangerous to society driving an Odyssey than a RAV4.

          3. Height. SUVs are higher and more likely to hit in the trunk of the person’s body vs the leg area. They are more likely to kill pedestrians vs other vehicles. It has nothing to do with the driver. It’s an unfortunate feature of higher vehicles like SUVs and trucks.

          4. The angle when pedestrians/cyclists get hit by SUVs is very vertical, compared to the slope of a sedan or minivan. The same speed hit from a SUV causes much more trauma than from a car.

        3. I had twins and just used a regular passenger car. I think people are kidding themselves that the few times a week they carpool make up for driving a gas-guzzler the rest of the time. Plus, I really despise the whole carpool-mommy culture, especially having to coordinate with other mommies who are invariably disorganized.

          1. Wow … don’t know where to start there. That’s pretty condescending. If it works out for multiple families, carpooling seems like a timesaver for everyone.

          2. Yikes, I don’t even know where to start with this. This is pretty rude to moms in general (apparently we are all invariably disorganized) and makes a bunch of assumptions, namely that carpooling isn’t a necessity. Most moms I know that carpool don’t do it for “fun”, they do it because they actually can’t drive every time themselves or pay someone else to drive every time.

          3. Sigh. You never disappoint, LaurenB. By which I mean I’m pretty much always disappointed by what you post.

          4. Oh honey of course you are organized. You just have twins. Two same age kids is not a hard schedule to work.

            Signed, mom of three including twins.

          5. You must have been rich enough to afford a driving nanny, or your kids did zero activities. Without carpools, my kid would not have been able to play sports because I could not pick her up at school and drive her to practice every day.

            BTW, I did carpool in a Prius.

          6. Yes, whatever SUVs are actually necessary far, carting around kids is not it. Life was fine before they become popular.

      4. Nissan Rogues get excellent gas mileage, have good backup cameras and some have third rows. They can also haul a lot. If you do a ton of hauling though, what about a used pickup truck with a full/extended cab? They have crap gas mileage though.

        1. A lot of suburban parents dramatically overestimate how much they “haul.” I would be shocked if there was actually a need for a truck with an extended cab.

          2. I think this assumes never moving or moving kids to/from college or taking a vacation or going to costco or buying a couple of boxes of diapers (the pre-having the second baby supply bender). It’s not a daily thing, but I’d rather not rent a truck / giant-er vehicle several times a year. The paid-off minivan is always there, a reliable friend for when you are in need (and unlike the truck, the minivan cargo stays dry).

          3. +1. Maybe it’s because a lot of people just keep lots of junk in their cars. So your kid is in sports. So there’s a ball and a gym bag, so what, that can go in your trunk. So your kid is in music, so what, unless it’s a tuba it can go in your trunk. Even with little kids – I found it ridiculous that as a mother of twins I was supposed to “need” a minivan. They went in the backseat and a fold-up stroller and diaper bag in the trunk. Done.

          4. I don’t think most people need a truck but I disagree that people overestiamte how much they “haul”. This depends on size of kids (often teenagers are full size adults) and activities. I have less than fond memories being stuck in the middle seat between smelly hockey players. Their gear + them barely fit into a mid-size SUV and definitely would not have fit in a sedan.

          5. You bring up tubas.

            My husband’s tuba fits into his subcompact.

            Also fitting into his subcompact: us (he’s really tall), the baby, the jogging stroller, and our luggage for a vacation.

            Learn to pack, people!

        2. I recently bought a Rogue and agree with most of this. I had a Corolla before and while the Rogue’s gas mileage isn’t as good; it is still better than most SUVs at 25/29ish mpg.

          Disagree that it hauls a lot though. My family has owned several Toyota’s- Avalon, camry, Prius, matrix, and my corolla. They all have sneakily huge trunks. I took the Rogue on a road trip a few weeks back and stuff for one week with two adults and a dog packed the trunk. I have been on trips in my brother’s Prius with more in the trunk and that’s a much smaller car, comparatively.

          So far I like the Rogue but am disappointed in the cargo capacity. It leaves me questioning if it’ll be sufficient for a kid.

          1. I was excited but it seems like a Rogue with a third row is 20/27, which is the exact same as a Pilot and other SUVs.

      5. If you’re concerned that you might kill pedestrians and cyclists with one car type but not another, perhaps you shouldn’t be driving at all. :)

        1. That doesn’t make sense — it’s like saying you shouldn’t drive because you’re concerned you might die without a seatbelt.

        2. You realize that actual data and statistics back up the fatality rates of SUVS right?

          It’s not about individual drivers. It’s about the height of SUVs. You can be a perfect driver and still hit an idiot pedestrian who jaywalks in front of you suddenly. If you’re driving an SUV they are much more likely to be killed vs a lower vehicle.

          1. But the corollary is safety to passengers inside the vehicle. I am an insurance lawyer and do not see a significant difference in pedestrian injuries/fatalities that is obviously linked to the car being driven. Speed and point of impact are far more significant, in my experience.

        3. +1 million. I am actually worried about being out on the road with folks who feel they can’t maintain watchfulness and be attentive enough to avoid hitting a pedestrian, regardless of what car they’re driving.

          2. “Why do you bother wearing a seatbelt if you are so watchful and attentive?”

            LOL, because I’m out on the road with the rest of you!

          3. So you care about your own safety but your attitude is IDGAF about other ppl? Super nice.

          4. Anonymous at 1:55, obviously you’re having a rough day and are spoiling for a fight. Sorry I can’t oblige you; I do hope you feel better though! Taking a walk this afternoon might be a good idea – you can get some fresh air and clear your head. Cheers!

    3. Honestly my dad loves our (very) old minivan so much — even though he lives alone and I’m grown up and no more carpools, etc. Every time he thinks about replacing it with an SUV, like a Honda Pilot, he realizes nothing but another minivan will give him the ability to haul furniture, bikes, etc. (He folds down the 3rd row, and sometimes one/both of the 2nd row captain’s chairs.) Literally he’s hanging on to a(n immaculately maintained) 20-year-old minivan because he likes the cargo space and newer minivans are very expensive and have bells and whistles he doesn’t need. So from a cargo perspective, sticking with a minivan might make sense.

      1. OP here, and I kind of love this story. It’s funny, because the minivan is literally the nicest vehicle I’ve ever owned. It’s more comfortable to ride in than the Outback. It works well for us. Really, we probably SHOULD just hold on to it! I’m just really tired of driving a giant vehicle. But, I may have to accept that I’m not leaving the giant vehicle stage of life anytime soon, lol.

        1. Well if you can find a 2001 Honda Odyssey that has been babied as much as my dad’s, I highly recommend it as a stuff-and-people hauler ;)

      2. This is hilarious – my dad is exactly the same way. He will not let go of the mini van. His last one did finally die though, so he, as a 65 year old man with no kids, went and bought another Honda Odessy! He got a base model (same issue with the unnecessary features), but he just loves it.

        1. OMG. (2001 Honda Odyssey poster here.) My dad is 69 and every few months considers dropping like 30k on a new minivan and I’m like DAD YOU ARE A WIDOWED OLD MAN WHO LIVES ALONE and he’s like BUT I HAVE STUFF. Please do not introduce him to your dad XD

        2. My parents’ minivan is approaching 300k miles and is still somewhat functional. However they each have a different, smaller car at this point.

          My dad chose to buy … a Subaru Baja. The half-truck one. It’s gloriously ugly.

        3. OP here, and I AM LOVING THESE DAD STORIES. My aunt and uncle are retired and their kids have long since left the nest. They still get a new minivan every couple of years.

    4. My kids are 9 and 11 and I will never not love the van. The carpooling option is gold, they never ding doors, and the cargo capacity is top-notch. As a short person, I like the lower stance (vs spouses Tahoe, which I am forever climbing into and having to climb after groceries and doesn’t hold that much stuff and the third row is useless for larger / taller kids).

      I have an Odyssey and will likely rebuy if I ever need another (or we get a third vehicle when older kid starts driving).

      1. I liked my Odyssey, but once I switched to an SUV, I realized that I LOVED my Odyssey. For all the reasons you and others have stated—minivans became popular for a reason.

    5. My parents have a Pilot which they really like (it can haul a TON). What’s your budget and how far will you be traveling with it? We are seriously thinking of a Tesla Model X but I’m not sure that’ll work well if we go on long trips to places without charging stations. I am lobbying for a crossover station wagon (volvo) which as a bonus would also be a lot easier to get skis/storage containers on and off of the rack on top.

      1. Travel is generally within 8-12 hours for us. I have a coworker with a Tesla and I’d never do it. We live in a small city that is smack dab in the middle of rural areas on all sides. I would be terrified of being without a charging station.

    6. I feel like the options for a car with a third row (which I assume you’d need for carpools) are not exciting, but I’m also not a person who cares about cars. I’ve been looking at the Suburu Ascent. Also considering giving up and just taking two cars when the situation demands it.

      1. That’s where I’m getting stuck. It seems like you’d need a third row for carpools, but they always seem so cramped and uncomfortable to me. And maybe not the best use of space. I’ve looked at the Ascent. Reviews seem very mixed — kind of a love it or hate it deal.

    7. If Honda’s aren’t exciting than Toyota’s probably aren’t either but I’m a Toyota devotee. Bought my Camry used and it’s 18 years old and going strong.

      1. I have a 1997 4Runner that’s still going strong. I am going to cry buckets when I finally replace it (which might be this year. I think I’ll probably replace it with a Hybrid Highlander).

    8. Toyota Highlander hybrid. If I were able to afford it, I’d only buy a hybrid and be done with gas powered.

      1. My husband has been doing all the car research as we prepare to grow our family, and this is the car he landed on for us.

      2. This is what we have for our three kids and dog. The only issue is when we have the third-row up there is very little cargo room in the back.

      3. We have a Highlander hybrid and an Odyssey, and I would definitely keep the Odyssey over the Highlander. We do a decent amount of carpooling (kids are 7, 9 and 11), and you just can’t beat the space. In part because the Highlander backseat is so small, my 11 year old is cramped and he’s only 4’11” (and sadly growing).

    9. Perspective from a middle school parent without a minivan. You will spend time driving kids around. Not all kids have this issue but my son is the size of an adult (he’s 6’1″ at 13) and all his friends are the size of adults. 3 adult-size kids + their sports equipment + the driver is a full load, my friend and generally barely fits in our Hyundai Santa Fe. So if you want to replace the minivan, go for something that still has room. A larger SUV would be a good choice.

      1. This — my kid at age 11 is taller than I am. And the other kid isn’t far behind. The Odyssey is the only vehicle I’ve ever been on where the second row is comfortable for a full-sized person. The third row isn’t bad, but I wouldn’t want 3 adults back there for a long period of time (you can move the middle row up a bit), but anything smaller is likely to be hella awful in the rear two rows all of the time if you even have a coupe of backpacks on a typical school day.

    10. What if you just didn’t replace the minivan? It meets your needs exactly right now. 4 years from now (7th-11th grade if I understand the ages of your kids) they’ll be driving. They can drive the old minivan and you can buy yourself a nice smaller car that you actually want.

      2. By then the minivan will be 12 years old. I understand the temptation to give kids/new drivers an old car that can get dinged, but you want more recent safety features with new drivers. They don’t need a new car either, but a 12 year old car is more liable to break down on them. too.

        1. I drove all old cars as a teen, up to 16 years old and it was fine. None of them ever broke down on me. And we didn’t have cell phones.

          1. I drove old cars as a teen (that were older than me). They didn’t break down entirely but that doesn’t mean it was necessarily a safe option. That’s like saying that since I used to sit in trunk of people’s SUV’s as a kid and we never got into a crash that that was a safe option…it was clearly not.

          3. Rich?

            Some of use were lucky to get a car period. It’s nice for a kid to have a nice, new, safe car, but that isn’t reality for many people. Guarantee a minivan is safer than most.

        2. This was brought up to us by our financial advisor, when we were discussing upcoming large purchases. He said there are three things he advises people against: buying a new teenage driver a brand-new sports car (for what I feel are obvious reasons); giving a new driver a 10+-year-old car (because of the safety-features issue as well as reliability, especially if the car has high miles) and buying a new driver an ultracompact, very light, very cheap car, because newer drivers are far more likely to crash and those types of vehicles are much less safe in crashes. (Teenagers also tend to drive small cars like maniacs, at least in my experience.) I asked him what he recommends and he said a 7-10 year-old full-size sedan. That works great for us, as we plan to give my 2013 paid-off Hyundai Sonata to our son when he starts driving next year; it’ll be fine as the car only has about 75k miles on it (advisor thought it was fine also).

          1. The flip side is that teenagers can learn to rely on the safety features.

            Driving an old sedan forced me to be safe. It didn’t have ABS. It reliably fishtailed in the snow (unless I put kitty litter in the trunk), and even then, I had to be consistent with the gas and breaking. I kept the brakes in good repair, but the car was heavy enough that tailgating was a non-starter. It was a sedan, so I didn’t have the “seeing over traffic” view of an SUV. With the lack of backup cameras in those days, I was taught to be cognizant of where people and pets are when I get into the vehicle, and to do a mental check when I start to back up.

            Yeah, I’m a curmudgeon, but I think you need to learn to drive before you have lane assist, blind spot alerts, and all that. Those are supplements to knowing how to drive, not a replacement.

          2. My grandfather used to tell all these cool stories about how much he learned growing up in a house where they had only a wood stove for heat and the only bathroom was an outhouse. I wish you guys had gotten to hang out.

          3. Anon at 2:34, one thing that’s changed from when you and I probably learned to drive is that the other cars on the road are now significantly heavier and more deadly than 15-20 years ago. Safety features like ABS breaks are a great technology breakthrough that make driving much safer and are now widely (universally?) available, so “getting used to them” doesn’t pose a problem. And the same will happen with backup cameras and parking sensors. I used to feel similarly to the way you did, that teens should drive old, cheap cars as a rite of passage, but this convinced me otherwise: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/well/family/teenage-drivers-cars-safety.html

          4. Actually, cars are lighter due to CAFE standards.

            The point is not that the technology is widely available; the point is that it is a SUPPLEMENT to good driving, not a replacement for knowing how to drive. You need to learn to check your blind spots 100% of the time; the little blinky light on the mirror is only there for the one time you don’t or can’t. You need to learn to think about where animals and children are when you operate a vehicle; the backup camera can only do so much. You need to learn that you can’t tailgate, and a brand-new car with brand-new tires and brand-new brakes isn’t going to teach you that.

            There is a reason why increased safety options increase driver safety a lot less than you would think (born out by statistics); people correct for the safety features.

        3. Right? I was the 7th or 8th kid in the neighborhood (we lost count) who learned to drive on a VW Beetle of unknown vintage. This was in the early 90’s. On the bright side, it was so simple, there was very little to have to fix when it broke.

    11. We’re doing a Honda Odyssey. I don’t love having a minivan but I find the giant three row SUVs more awkward to drive and I still want the carpool space as having friends come along is a more frequent request. I also like getting to know their friends a bit so I don’t mind volunteering to drop off or pick up everyone from the movies or whatever. I expect to have it 5-10 years and then will celebrate by replacing it with a fancy small car when they go to college.

    12. We have one ninth-grader and a Prius. We would actually have had more use for a minivan or SUV starting in around fourth grade than we did when the kid was little. Once everyone is out of car seats and into a million activities, and the parents have calmed down about wanting to attend every single event themselves, carpools become much more common and so helpful. More cargo capacity would also be nice for the long road trips, camping, and equipment-intensive outdoor activities that are much easier to do with older kids. I want to buy paddleboards, but I don’t know how those would ever fit on top of a Prius.

      An SUV with a third row might meet your needs for occasional carpooling–these have worked well for my friends with two preteen/teen kids. Personally, I’d love to have a hybrid Highlander. Do keep in mind that when you use the third row it eats up your cargo space, and if your second row is a bench seat it’s a giant pain to get in and out of the third row.

      1. Very good point about the bench seat! And, you’re probably right about that paddleboard on top of a Prius! Maybe an inflatable one would be the way to go. ;)

    13. I would get another minivan rather than an SUV, personally. A lot of minivans haul more than you think — you can put luggage on seats, and some (like my sister’s Sedona) have seats that fold all the way down for lumber.

    14. We have a Chevy Traverse (the newer models are SIGNIFICANTLY better than the old ones) and a GMC Acadia. We spent the better part of two years test driving everything under the sun trying to figure out what would work for us (three kids, giant breed dog, long road trips).

    15. Toyota is bringing back the Venza in 2021, as a hybrid. I had a 2010 that was my post-minivan car, and it was possibly my favorite car ever. As far as carpooling space, keep in mind that many carpools do not involve both of your children as they get older. You leave one at home to run the other to dance, or whatever, so you can comfortably fit 1 in the front, 2 in the back, and a pile of their crap in the back. My Venza held a TON but drove much more like a car than an SUV. They discontinued it after the 2015, but if I’d known they were bringing it back, I might have waited instead of getting a Highlander last fall.

    16. I suggest getting a second mini van to take you through high school AND the hauling of the stuff back and forth to college. It is great to be able to seat lots of people, drive for team sports, and support friendships. We had 3 Honda Odysseys, and loved the car.

  9. Anyone have a strapless bra that they love? I like something with a little padding or push-up. I’m 34c. Thanks!

    2. I wear stick-ems (official title ;) ). I get them on Amazon. And I’m a DD – they really work!

      1. Recommendation for: Strapless with strong support for a 38G who wears sturdy, underwire, minimizer for everyday to minimize bouncing? Also, have never worn strapless because every try on seems lacking in support, so want a model that will stay in place at all times! Thanks!

  10. White readers, how’s it going on the racial justice front? Any successes in talking to family members and finding good resources? I started So You Want to Talk About Race and The New Jim Crow is next in line. I also finally finished the entire 1619 project and had some really good conversations with relatives that went WAY better than expected. One more important thing is that I steeled my courage for a simple check in with my coworkers of color and they said that they really appreciated that someone reached out. I had been afraid of saying the wrong thing but I think it was the right call. Would love to hear how it’s going for everyone else and even though I’m targeting my question at white readers (since we have more catch-up to do), I’d of course love to hear how our WOC readers are doing.

    1. My retired mom has started asking me to explain things to her, in a way that I can tell she’s second-guessing the surface version she hears in her circles (mostly at the VFW, surrounded by my dad’s cronies). We’ve had some really good discussions about BLM. She really liked the forest analogy (“Save the rainforest doesn’t mean f*** the oak trees”.)

      It’s both good, and sad. She busted her back working tons of OT for decades, and it’s only now that she’s had the time and mental space to explore current events, and actually roll things around in her head long enough to come to her own opinions. IMO it’s another example of how our work culture keeps people too busy to fight back.

      1. Oh man, your last line is no accident. American-style capitalism ensures that working whites and blacks have to work too hard to collaborate on “dangerous” ideas. Look at Bacon’s Rebellion and how “scary” that was…

        1. It’s why I think there is such a rush to open the economy too. The gov’t is scared that people have time to protest. If they have to work or have other social engagements they are less likely to be engaged.

          Honestly, my work is busier than ever and I haven’t had time to do more than read the headlines so I haven’t done that much self reflection.

      2. oh, I hadn’t heard that analogy. Might be useful to engage people (although, conservation in general has it’s problems with uneven distribution of resources. Everyone wants to save the elephants and chimpanzees, at the expense of other species, but that’s not the point here).

        1. Shepherd/farmer analogy works here too, leaves the flock to find the one animal that’s missing, not because they don’t care about the other 99 but because that 1 is in danger.
          Also, equal rights for all doesn’t mean fewer rights for you, it’s not pizza. That one resonated with my kid a lot.

    2. I am midway through the 1619 project podcast and am really finding it heartbreaking and enlightening, especially when read alongside The Water Dancer. Why didn’t I learn this in schools?

    3. I’m halfway through the 1619 podcast, but keep stopping to write things down and look things up. I just read The Water Dancer and it really helped me contextualize the book (obviously fiction/magical realism but set alongside the decline of Virginia tobacco plantations).
      I’ve also been doing a lot of thinking about what I can do in my local community. It’s tricky, Scotland isn’t massively diverse (about 3% of the population BAME), so it’s easy to kid ourselves that Scotland isn’t racist, but it is! But I am a university teacher, and am taking a hard look at the texts and themes I teach, and a parent, so I’ve been doing reading about raising white children.
      I think the biggest impact it’s hard thus far is changing my thinking on schools for my son. I’ve been reading and listening to discussions about integrated schools.

      1. when you look stuff do you find that it checks out? it’s so controversial that i am curious about that.

      2. DH is European and I find Europe is even worse than US or UK for racism. Like they understand antisemitism as a concept but will argue that since there was no slavery (not true) that US issues don’t apply. SO frustrating.

    4. I liked 13th and also watched Teach All of Us, which was also good (although I think it started to verge on corny for the final 20 mins). Both are available on Netflix.

    5. Having some hard conversations that aren’t going so well, honestly. I’m really disappointed with several family members whose silence I took to be non-acceptance but was actually agreement. I don’t understand how they can profess to be Christian and yet espose the hate that they do. I’m doing my best to counter their arguments in a respectful way they might be able to hear. If I don’t change their mind, maybe I let other “family dissenters” know they’re not alone? It’s hard but it’s the least I can do with the power my skin gives me.

      I am doing a lot of research and working hard to sit with my discomfort so I’ll grow. I’m donating what I can and supporting how I can and amplifying when I can. In Trevor Noah’s Born A Crime, he talks about how Germans are taught the atrocities of the Holocaust so they understand the gravity and why it can’t be repeated or forgotten, but Americans are not taught the atrocities of how Black people have been treated. We hear “there was slavery and then Jim Crow and then MLK and now we’re all the same” and don’t do any deeper thinking about it at all. So now I’m reading An African American and Latinx History of the US and it’s eye opening.

      Most personally impactful is that I’m talking with my young kids. My 4 year old son wants to be a police officer (thanks Chase and the Paw Patrol) which is opening the door for some great conversations. I don’t want him to be the officer in the news, or even the officer who stood by and didn’t say anything. My 7 year old daughter wants to be a president, which is even more important. I want her to introduce something like the Dream Act, not be an Amy Cooper. So we’re talking and talking and I’m hoping this new generation is so much better than mine.

      1. I read a really interesting book last year which delved a bit further into Noah’s point. Learning from the Germans explored US and German approaches to their historical injustices. It was really fascinating!

          1. I’m not Cb but it is called Learning from the Germans by Susan Neiman. It’s a great book on many issues.

      2. I don’t remember the discussion of Germany /holocaust in Born a Crime, but I studied in Germany as a HSer and remember how jarring/refreshing/different the discussion about the holocaust was compared to the sanitized US history being taught in US schools at the time!

    6. Honestly, not all that well. I’ve read the New Jim Crow, I’ve read some other articles. But I don’t have any black friends, neighbors, or acquaintances, and I have only a few black co workers, but none that I interact with on a regular basis. In fact, it would be very odd for me to reach out to them, because there’s not a reason for us to interact (right before covid WFH started, the black female first year associate actually thought I was a different person… on multiple occasions). Right now, I’m working from home, as is my white husband, and we have a white nanny who watches our white, male baby during the day. This is something that I’ve always struggled with on the diversity front – I recognize that I live in a tiny white person bubble, but I am unsure how to expand it. I know that there are readers on this board who have intentionally purchased homes in more diverse neighborhoods, or sent their children to specific diverse school. I am currently a homeowner and not looking to move ever again due to the annoyance of moving and also loving my current home. We found our nanny thru friends of ours who aged out of the nanny and now have their child in school, and we couldn’t get into any daycares (still have a year waiting list at the earliest of the 5 day cares we’ve applied to). I don’t think I intentionally avoid black people or other POC, I just don’t encounter diversity in my day to day life between home and work. And, looking ahead, I don’t see this changing in the near future for me personally. My job isn’t hiring anyone right now, so my co workers won’t change, we’re keeping our nanny since we still can’t get into a day care, and we’re not looking to try and sell our house or buy a new one. I don’t say all of this this to be confrontational, but while I can read books/articles and watch documentaries until I’m blue in the face, I don’t know who I am supposed to have conversations with or how I can expand my universe. I looked at the list of black owned business in my city and there are two restaurants on there that I like and have/will continue to patronize. But the majority of the businesses are just not ones I would patronize – they’re far away from my house, services I don’t need (marriage counseling, moving company) or restaurants where the food doesn’t appeal to me (a seafood place when I don’t eat any sort of fish). I’m Jewish, so religion is not a huge area where I can expand diversity. I have to imagine I’m not the only white reader who is in this situation.

      1. I think it’s easy enough though to educate yourself and your family (esp. your husband and son!) about what privilege is, to learn a more rounded view of history, discuss how you all can be allies, etc. You can also be an ally in other ways – donate time or money to relevant causes, call/email/write your elected officials to protest racist laws, etc.

      2. One thing to think about is posting a BLM sign or starting conversations with white neighbors. I suggested that to my aunt, who lives in a town that is 97% white (East Coast, wealthy, sailing mecca), and she took to it enthusiastically. There’s now a handpainted BLM sign hanging in the window of her house, which was built when her New England state was still a slave state. There’s real value in demonstrating to other white people that you are still thinking and talking about race even if your immediate environment is not diverse.

          1. I don’t believe it’s virtue-signaling to show others that racism is not welcome in a town that is that disproportionately white. I know that many people in that town (since I have spent a lot of time there) think that while racism is “bad,” race isn’t a relevant issue to them locally. Symbolic gestures matter as part of the overall strategy, although they certainly shouldn’t be the ONLY strategy. It’s not the only strategy for my aunt.

          2. agree with Anon at 1:42, and also maybe spend a little more time reflecting on what virtue signaling means to YOU. Personally, I haven’t found it a useful lens, because questioning choices as virtue signaling doesn’t bring new insights.
            In this specific case, having a symbolic sign in your window, could be many things. If you don’t do the work of questioning and dismantling racist impulses (which almost all of us have, through growing up in a racist system), one could say that that sign is lazy. If you point to that sign as the good thing you did while supporting politicians that advocate for racist policies, then one could say that sign is hypocritical. I just don’t find that ‘virtue signaling’ contributes anything other than repackaging lazy and hypocritical in a nebulous-ominous fog that immobilizes.
            And I want to again agree with Anon at 1:42, that there might very well be positive outcomes of signaling to other white people that you think this matters and especially to covert white supremacists that they can’t delude themselves that a silent majority agrees with them.

      3. I might think about what you might do to expand your community. I know there are issues about white saviourism but if a community project or food bank needed volunteers, that might be a way of expanding your circle, both from a socioeconomic perspective and a racial perspective. From my reading though, I think the key is to go in and listen, rather than expect to lead.

      4. You should be having the hard conversations with other white people. Especially, when a white person in your sphere makes a racist joke or comment, etc.

      5. You don’t have to reinvent the world in two weeks but I encourage you to try a bit harder. Surely there are more than 2 black owned businesses you can patronize if you make an effort. The point is that it might not be the easiest! No one is saying you have to fire your nanny. But can you look for diversity in other activities? Could you make sure your voice is heard to your local representatives on these issues? Could you encourage anti-racist service work at your synagogue?

        Two weeks of reading and reflection is a great start! But this is a lifetime project to challenge yourself to do better.

          1. ? This is what working to be continously anti-racist means. It doesn’t mean you are perfect at it, it means it is actual work and it’s hard, and it’s uncomfortable. But you do it anyway.

          2. I’m just staggered by people who feel comfortable being this prescriptive about other people’s lives and feel totally okay using a preachy, sanctimonious tone to talk to people. The “wow” was zero percent about the content of your message and 100% about how it came across. If you feel like talking to people like this is okay – or think it’s persuasive – I’m really grateful I don’t know you in real life. I bet you’re exhausting.

          3. eh, I just can’t find this so sanctimonious. Anonymous@11:47 said she doesn’t know how to get active for racial justice, which I understood as asking for more ideas.

      6. For small steps, maybe at some point you would be interested in enrolling your child in a foreign language course, karate course or some kind of group that might have a diverse educator/peer group and provide an opportunity to learn a bit about another culture. Also look for diversity in books/educational shows for children & pay attention to how race is talked about.

      7. While your job isn’t hiring now, you could take the long view and start learning about what it takes for a company to hire from a diverse pool of applicants, and how to retain a diverse workforce, especially if a non-white hire would be the first at your workplace, making this even harder. It takes a big culture shift, so the time to start those conversations is now.

      8. Any capacity to do some volunteer work? I was speaking to a friend last night about mentorship programs at the highschool level designed to provide Black students with an understanding of career opportunities. She is a lawyer and is aware of a program and I’m a CPA and I know our local association has a program for indigenous youth. I’m going to check out if they have one for Black youth. Our association also has a volunteer program to present workshops to improve financial literacy that I’m going to check out.

  11. Anyone else married to a guy that just won’t ever get rid of anything? I’m so frustrated. I guess he’s not technically a hoarder because he doesn’t collect new things to bring in, but putting almost anything in the trash results in an argument.

    Last week I spent ten minutes explaining that no, I will not cut the collar and cuffs off my worn, frayed work shirts and wear them to do yard work. I will be putting them in the trash, where they belong, and continue to wear loose breathable knits to do yard work. (And yes, he DOES wear an old dress shirt to cut the grass, and he looks a GD fool doing it.)

    Our neighbor backed over our mailbox post and destroyed it, so we poured a new pad and replaced the whole setup. Now I’m arguing with my husband that the old rusted mailbox belongs in the recycling bin, NOT as a “second mailbox” in our backyard. Who TF needs that?

    It’s at the point that my mother helps me smuggle trash out of the house and put it in her bins so he can’t see it.

    1. This sounds like extreme hoarding behavior to me. I would suspect a mental health issue.

    3. Actual LOL at the second mailbox in the backyard. That’s… not a thing.

      My mom is like this & my dad just throws crap away when she’s not looking. I attribute it to her growing up poor so it feels wasteful to get rid of stuff, especially if it could be used again. But if my dad is the one throwing it away, she doesn’t feel guilty.

    4. Why are you explaining throwing out your shirts? Just throw them out.

      Being a hoarder is not just about buying new stuff, it can be about refusing to get rid of old useless stuff. He kinda sounds like a hoard. Hoarding is a mental illness that worsens with age so he should seek treatment soon.

    5. I think it’s time for counseling. And since I assume he won’t go alone couples counseling. I hate throwing stuff away. Hate it. But him trying to dictate to you what you do with your clothes and what you wear? That’s a major red flag. His mental health issues have turned into trying to control you and that’s something you need to address now before it gets worse.

    6. Oof. You do not need to argue about this. He needs to get professional help. I wouldn’t say he’s not a boarder just because he’s not buying new things into the house. Hoarding is also a progessive problem. There are ususally psychological roots to this type of behavior. Throw trash away where it should go and refuse to argue about it. He can find professional help and work through it with your support, but no more exhausting marital arguments about throwing away worn out work shirts and rusty destroyed “second” mail boxes. No No No.

    7. So, yeah, this is hoarding. My husband’s uncle was like your husband originally – not bringing stuff in, but not letting anything go out either – and it progressed to going around to neighborhood trash cans and dumpsters and fishing out things that were “still good” and bringing them home and putting them in the garage or the backyard for later use (and of course, later never came). My husband’s aunt held the line on the house pretty well but they still got code enforcement called out because of the yard. Uncle also got talked to a couple of times by the police when the neighbors called the cops on him for going through people’s trash cans. DH’s uncle died of a heart attack before he hoarded out the house. It still took DH’s aunt weeks to go through everything in the garage, yard and sheds (he had gotten multiple and they were all stuffed full) and I think she ended up having 2 or 3 big dumpsters full hauled away.

      While you’re husband isn’t actively seeking things to bring in to the house (yet), the bottom line is, things do come in the house (food packaging, replacement clothing, gifts, etc.) and if he won’t let anything go, the matter will pile up in your house/yard. Hoarding is a disorder involving executive functioning (how people’s brains categorize and organize things) and there are connections back to trauma and anxiety. I know this may sound extreme, but I would get in touch with a therapist who specializes in hoarding now. DH’s aunt called one, kind of late in the game, and while her husband was really resistant to talking about what was going on, the therapist really helped her in setting and holding boundaries, and understanding the behavior. Apparently there is a tipping point after which it becomes really, really difficult to get the hoarder to change their thought patterns around objects; your husband may still be malleable in this area and so attempting some kind of intervention might pay off. I am sorry you are dealing with this.

    8. If you’re at the point where you’re secretly smuggling trash out of the house with your mother’s help, then yes, it’s a hoarding situation. Insist on therapy.

      1. ^this. When you live with someone who has mental illness, especially if it is a somewhat-gradual change, you can lose sight of how much you’re altering your behaviour to accommodate them. As an outsider, the fact you have to have someone help you smuggle garbage out of your home is a problem.

    9. So I was going to give you some advice about when my husband (who has slight packrat tendencies) and I (who find organizing and purging cathartic) moved in together. But reading through your description of what’s going on, his behaviors sound more like some lower-level hoarding versus someone who just hangs on to a bit more stuff than average.

      I’m sorry, it’s so frustrating to try to compromise when the other persons idea of what’s reasonable is far outside the norm. Wanting to keep an old, rusted mailbox when you have a nice, new one isn’t reasonable for 99% of circumstances. I don’t get this sense based on your description, but is he okay with getting rid of things when items get recycled versus put in the trash? I hesitate to suggest therapy since it’s such a go-to answer, but… therapy.

    10. Oh wow, I thought my guy was bad. What on earthy was his rationale for the ‘second mailbox’?

      My husband is similar with the ‘its still good’ mentality when it comes to worn out/broken things. We deal with it by agreeing on acceptable zones (e.g., spare bedroom, his desk) where he can store the heaps of t-shirts he’s had since college and back issues of sports illustrated that he’s going to read someday. When some piece of his crap appears in a non-zoned area, I scoop it up and stack it on the pile. Every few months he’ll get frustrated by the pile enough to thin it out.

      I have also asked him not to buy me any more ‘stuff’ for gifts – no more knick-knacks, mugs, etc – instead I’d like gifts in the form of jewelry, consumables, or extra contributions to shared household improvement projects.

    11. If you’re smuggling trash, it sounds like you are married to a hoarder? This sounds like professional therapy (for him, for you, for both) territory. For your own sanity, I would get rid of anything that is yours, that you want to get rid of, without any conversation. “This is mine and I can choose what to do with it” – no arguments about why/when/where/how to get rid of it.
      It sounds like a long-standing and seriously frustrating situation – I’m sorry.

    12. My husband is frugal and great with money. I love that about him.

      I adopted the standard of: if this item is so worn that it could not be given away (think, a formerly nonstick pan with a permanent layer of crud on the sides), then it goes in the trash and we buy a new one. We took care of the item when we had it, and it is most definitely through its useful life.

      There is very little that you cannot continue to use in some fashion or another, so put the focus on the principles of buying responsibly, taking care of something when you have it, and using it to the end of its intended life.

      Also, focus on the costs of keeping all this stuff. It’s taking up space in your house, basement, yard, etc, and that’s not free. Stuff rusts or breaks down, even in storage. Pens dry out. Clothes acquire moth holes.

    13. I was with you until your second paragraph. DH will throw away items that are actual trash. This does sound like hoarding, plus, you have a lot of resentment around it (not saying it isn’t warranted) so I’d suggest counseling – probably individual and couples. Not to make light of your struggles, but the idea of a second mailbox is highly amusing to me. Is it decorative? What is he proposing you put in it? A bird’s nest? Flowers? Old junk mail?

    14. Agree with everyone else that this does sound like a hoarder situation that needs therapy.
      That being said, taking it down a notch in case elevating like that isn’t immediately possible…
      My husband is nowhere near your’s level, but does hesitate about throwing out some obvious trash to me sometimes. I know it has its flaws & is easy to ridicule, but the Marie Kondo book really helped me frame even mentally for myself several principles to follow & probably more importantly helped me articulate why I follow them. I repeat to my husband over & over how distressing I find clutter, including sending him articles that back up that this is a real thing so that he knows I’m not nagging just to nag and that does seem to seep into his psyche (if yours would read the Marie Kondo book all the better, but you can google similar articles if not). The Kondo book includes why it’s important to have clothes you feel good in even if you are just hanging out around the house, ala mowing the lawn in not an old dress shirt.
      Similar to what you are already doing, I had a friend that used to hide things that she knew her husband needed to toss, and if 6 months went by without him asking about them, out it went. Of course, if he’s actively asking for his dress shirts to mow in that won’t help.
      (I would note that while the Marie Kondo TV show was entertaining, if I had not read the book I would not have found that a good substitute at all about the details behind why she advocates what she does, if you are interested in this and haven’t already read it I would definitely read not watch).
      A second mailbox would be hilarious if it wasn’t so nuts and real.

      1. p.s. I also give really generous deadlines about some things and stick to them. Example, we have some broken electronic toys in our basement. My husband is convinced he can fix them. That is the kind of thing where I say, if these are still sitting here 6 months from now & aren’t fixed, they are getting tossed. Mark it on your calendar even. Something where the time frame is long enough where even in the moment there is no way he can argue that he can’t get to it by then if it’s something he really cares about, or if he didn’t get to it by then it is in any way a reasonable thing to expect to get to after. But at least you know there is a deadline of the crap being there.

    15. My husband is very similar to yours, except he *does* collect new things. Everything is still useful, or is a souvenir, or historical documentation. But to those who say therapy is the answer, that’s not easy if the person refuses to admit that their behavior might be a problem for anyone. We have a big house, there’s always somewhere you can cram another pile of stuff in. His plan is that he will die first (likely) and I will trash it all after he’s gone.

    16. I have trouble getting rid of stuff that someone else might find useful for an arts and crafts project or whatever. Our transfer station lets us put stuff like that in a pile and whatever is still there at the end of the day or week gets tossed. I’ll also try putting it at the end of the driveway with a free sign and if no one wants it for free, it gets tossed. I particularly like doing that with broken furniture that I am never going to fix but someone else may as a hobby.

    17. My husband keeps everything. He goes on an annual guy trip each year; I get a dumpster and clean everything out each year. He has yet to miss anything and always comments about the extra space when he gets home. I am sure he is aware of what is going on but it let him keep things for a while and allows me to have a clean house/garage.

    18. Yes, my DH is like this! Our cycle is something is broken/doesn’t fit/etc, he refuses to throw it out because he thinks he will fix it or find some bizarre alternative purpose for it. This man works 98% of his waking hours, he is not fixing shit. I forget about it, and then finally a year later I find whatever item it is while I’m trying to declutter and finally we can toss it now. I am working very hard to try to get him to skip this initial hold out waiting period and just acknowledge whatever vague ideas he has are never going to materialize, and to just toss it. Also doesn’t help that we have a 950 sq ft apt, so I feel like we can’t keep it clean because of clutter. Your second mailbox is familiar… we have a “back up” plunger because he wouldn’t throw away our old plunger that doesn’t really work (eye roll).

      1. Not any more you don’t. Because right now you are going to go and throw that away.

        1. It’s so hard because it’s like, do I do things like this and risk the marital turbulence as a result? I come from a wealthy family that is characteristically minimalist and unsentimental. My parents throw out everything, there are absolutely no mementos of my childhood left. So I’ve just been trained to not become attached to objects. DH on the other hand is an immigrant, specifically a refugee from the collapsing USSR. His parents are the same way, just as my grandparents who lived during the great depression are low key hoarders today.

          1. My husband and I also live in an apartment about that size. We both have a tendency to keep things, him more so than me.

            With the “backup” stuff, it’s helpful to work through what you would do if the real one breaks. Inevitably, the answer is “drive to the store and buy a new one for $10.” And my thing is that I don’t want to spend an extra $5,000 a year buying a bigger place so that we have enough room to store mostly broken versions of things that cost $10 each new.

            That, right there, is your framing of the issue.

      2. Yeah, my husband is this way too. Right now we have a pile of his old ratty t-shirts that he is insisting he’s going to make into handkerchiefs in case we run out of kleenex… the pandemic has really played to this tendency, because suddenly we ARE using things I’d wanted to get rid of (like the bike trainers for our bikes after our gym closed). He has amassed a huge collection of food containers (maybe 20 of the large plastic cartons our costco feta comes in, plus some of the big canisters for peanuts). He doesn’t try to tell me that I can’t get rid of things that are strictly mine, but I could absolutely see him having an issue with the mailbox like OP’s husband. He’s in therapy, but doesn’t think of himself as a hoarder and I’m guessing has not brought this up.

    19. My sister’s husband is like this. They built a garage bigger than their house to store all of his treasures and then he immediately filled it up by going out to find more stuff. Broken things get taken apart “for parts” and when something else breaks he swears he has just the part to fix it but can’t find it. He once screeched fo a halt while driving down a busy street because there was a single motorcycle glove in the middle of the street that was still perfectly good. A single glove.

      I don’t get that much info from my sister any more but my adult niece says their homeowners insurance got cancelled because my sister’s husband has filled up both side yards with so much crap, the only way to get from the back yard to the front yard and street is through the house, which they don’t want to insure because what happens if there is a fire?

      Your husband is sick. Don’t let it get to this point.

        1. yes, holy cr@p indeed.

          My sister says that when the house they’re building on a new parcel is finished, she will make him get rid of this junk before moving. My money is on – they keep the old house filled with junk because 1) he won’t get rid of it, and 2) it’s a seemingly insurmountable task even if he wanted to.

          They’re counting on the money from selling their current house for financing the new one (they have a bridge loan right now) so I don’t know how this will all play out.

          1. They pay people to move it to a storage unit. In a year, your sister will go through it, keep about twenty items, and have the rest thrown in a dumpster.

    20. So, I am going to give a little of the other side here.
      First, I agree this is low-level hoarding thought process and he probably needs therapy.
      My mother is a hoarder- not to like tv show levels, if you didn’t open a closet or drawer (or look in the *four* storage sheds on their acre property) you would not know. But oh man, literally everything is stuffed to the gills and she saved everything. If she likes something she buys 10. I noticed some similar behaviors in myself and sought therapy.
      So, number one, yes, hoarding IS a mental health disorder, so let’s treat it that way. He’s not lazy or dirty or stupid or stubborn. It’s a mental health issue, and needs help. Second, recent research suggests that it may be genetic- not that it’s unavoidable but that like many other MH illnesses it appears to have a genetic component that can run in families.
      Third- while I agree to draw a boundary around YOUR things (it’s your shirt, you decide what happens to it), I *strongly* advise against “sneaking” things to the trash. My father did this and it ramped up my mother’s hoarding behavior severely- which makes total sense if you actually bother to understand the thought process behind the mental illness of hoarding. It’s been very difficult to come back from that. And in the end it made things worse for him. It is completely against what a MH professional would recommend in dealing with a hoarder.
      Finally, I would just say that all the people who talk about how distressing clutter is to their mental health need to understand that the hoarder is actually distressed by the *emptiness* of what you consider a “clean” space. That does not mean you have to let your house turn into a hoard. But it does mean understanding that compromise doesn’t mean everything is how *you* want it. My husband (a super neat person whose bachelor apartment was so clean and spartan it looked staged) and I have spent years learning how to get to a place that is comfortable for both of us, which is way more stuff than he would have alone, and way less stuff and way neater than I would have alone.

      But ultimately if he really is hoarding- please don’t treat a mental illness like a character flaw.

      1. The hoarder is distressed by “emptiness” because he has a mental illness, not because you need to compromise with him on standards of cleanliness.

      2. Mental illness isn’t a character flaw. It’s also something the partner can decide they want to live with, or they don’t want to live with. And if a partner decides they can’t live with the burden of the other person’s mental illness, it doesn’t make them a bad person. It makes them a person who knows their own limits.

      3. I’m the Marie Kondo poster, who I think some of these comments are directed at.
        Fair about the distressing part. In my particular case, my husband doesn’t get distressed about getting rid of the stuff. It’s more like, having clutter truly does not bother him at all so he sees no downside to keeping things kicking around just in case, so it is up to me to tell him what the downside is (my mental happiness) as a real thing. In retrospect b/c of your post I realize this does not likely apply to OP (her husband likely does get distressed about tossing stuff).
        The throwing away stuff making it worse is potentially a good point.

  12. I have read lots of posts about people clashing with extended family about social distancing etc, but what about with your spouse? We live in an area of PA where the COVID cases are low and have been declining steadily over the past few months. Our testing positive % is less than 2%. We went to the green phase two weeks ago (everything is pretty much open) and have not seen a spike. Yet my husband is still acting like we need to shelter in place and refuses to do anything I propose. No gym, office , restaurants, haircuts, etc. I would really like to take our kids (2 and 4 yo) to the pool and he says it’s still too risky. I said if it’s so crowded that we can’t stay 6 feet apart I would leave and he still says no. We have not had childcare come back and have cancelled all trips I’m really struggling with being tired, overworked, and I just want a break and to do something or something to look forward to but everything seems off limits. This has been a constant fight over the past week or so and I’m struggling to understand where he is coming from. Doesn’t the fact that we are in green mean something?

    1. Is he suggesting an alternative he is comfortable with where he takes the kids so you are not so overworked with childcare and exhaustion? Has he articulated special reasons that he wants to be MORE cautious when you are in green phase in your location? If he is being irrationally cautious in a way that overburdens you in terms of childcare and overwork, he needs to have solutions that alleviate some of this for you. And hopefully while he’s doing that you can go to the gym or the pool and get some rest!

      1. When you live with someone, your risk is their risk though. At the beginning of all this, we were telling people with spouses not following SAH orders to find somewhere else to sleep for two weeks. I think it is worth taking his concerns into account while making decisions here.

        1. +1 In instances of not agreeing on risk willingness, you should defer to whoever (male or female) is most risk averse as it is shared risk. It doesn’t seem right to make health decisions (which is what this is) for your spouse. And green or not it is a risk that can have potentially deadly or life altering consequences to overall health. I personally have been meeting with groups of friends outside but I definitely talked it over with my immune suppressed husband before accepting invitations. Just like he cleared his haircut by me.

        2. Sure take his concerns into account! Discuss all you want and can! Make a plan! But it’s important not to let anxious people control your life. If his answer is no to everything for an indefinite period, remember you don’t need his permission to live your life.

    3. My husband would *NOT* budge on hiring a nanny so after a couple weeks I said F it and locked myself in my office and let him deal with the baby alone all day while trying to work while I worked in peace. We now have a nanny!

      I don’t really know how that could translate into him being willing to take the kids out, though. But sticking my husband with work helped sway his opinion.

    4. so, it does sound like for your state the fact that you are in green means something…but in my state (texas) the fact that everything is open does not mean anything other than irresponsible leadership. i am also sort of more like your DH in this situation, while my DH is more like you. from everything i’ve read gyms and restaurants are considered to be two of the riskiest covid activities, so if I was your DH and you mentioned wanting to go to a restaurant or the gym in the same sentence as wanting to go to the pool, i would have trouble with that because that would be way too big of a leap for me and would give me hesitation about your judgment at the pool. what exactly is he worried about at the pool? the bathrooms? the kids being too close to other people? we took our kids to the pool this past weekend. we arrived the second it opened and were the only ones there for an hour and then as more people started coming after we’d been there for 2 hours we left.

    5. “I’m struggling to understand where he is coming from.”
      Has he explained where he’s coming from, and it doesn’t make sense to you, or does he simply say no but can’t explain why not?

      Either way, I’d change the conversation to, “What criteria are you watching to determine when haircuts and the swimming pool will be OK?” Ask him to define the positive — when he WILL “open up” — rather than argue about the current impasse. It’s fine that he has a different standard for when he will do things than the local government is setting. It’s NOT fine that he simply says no but can’t articulate when or why he’d say yes. If he doesn’t like the local criteria for moving to the green phase, what criteria DOES he want to use for his own personal green phase?

      Then you also define what your standard will be for when you personally with move to a green phase. It sounds like yours is “When the local area does.”

      Now. . . .how will the two of you compromise about these different standards? Will you do your own activities but not take the kids? Will he meet your criteria halfway or will he take the kids, so he can ensure safety according to his standard?

    6. Hugs, my husband sounds similar to yours. I got him to agree to childcare and the resumption of our cleaning service, because I told him if he wouldn’t outsource these things he was 100% responsible for them himself and obviously he didn’t want to do that. But he prohibits us from doing anything for fun. With some experts saying that even a vaccine may not end the pandemic and that COVID will likely be with us for years, I’m wondering when I will ever go to a gym, restaurant or salon again, or take my kids to the playground or on a plane to visit my out of state friends. We got in a huge fight last night and it’s to the point where I’m starting to question whether I want to stay married. I could live with him not wanting to do these things with me, but I’m not sure I can face being indefinitely banned from these activities myself.

      1. It has been less than three months. No one knows when things will be safe again. Just because he can’t give you a date that he will be comfortable doesn’t mean that you are forever banned from doing things. Wait and see what happens as things reopen. You don’t have to be the first one in the salon or on a plane.

        Are there other issues in your marriage besides this? It sounds like you are doing some catastrophic thinking. Can you agree to reevaluate the situation in a month?

        1. My state has now been open since May 1 (with no spike in cases) so it’s not like I want to be the first to do all these things. The vast majority of people I know have been doing all these things (except plane trips) for well over a month now. Anyway, my concern is not so much that I need to do these things RIGHT NOW, but more that my husband has straight up told me he’s not sure he will ever be comfortable with them again, even if/when there’s a vaccine. He has said he’s 100% fine never getting on a plane again, never eating in a restaurant again, never getting a professional haircut again, etc. He doesn’t believe these things are essential to life and doesn’t miss them. I ….do not feel the same way at all. These small luxuries added up to make my life a lot more enjoyable, and I’m not ok with giving them up forever.
          I’m not filing for divorce tomorrow or anything, but it seems like we have a pretty fundamental difference about how to live life going forward which, yes, is making me question whether we should remain married.

          1. I’m really sorry, Anon at 12 p.m. I think him saying he’s fine never flying again or eating in a restaurant again would be really concerning for me, and also make me think a lot about where the marriage is headed in the long-term. It’s also really concerning that he’s saying he’s not comfortable doing these things even after there’s a vaccine? To me that seems like really, really extreme anxiety talking. In your shoes, I would also be questioning whether or not I want to stay married. Travel, eating in restaurants, being with friends and family, etc. are all part of what make my life worth living, and I could not be with someone who either A., expected me to give those up indefinitely OR B., would “let” me go do those things (while projecting judgement and resentment) but refuse to participate in those activities with me. I wouldn’t be able to stay married in either of those two situations. And I’ve been married over 20 years.

          2. Thanks, 12:11. I do think there’s some anxiety involved, but also he just enjoys this stuff less than me and always has. His lack of interest in travel was a fairly big sticking point before the pandemic, but he was willing to compromise and do some family travel (and of course I was free to travel as much as I wanted without him because there were no health risks to him from my travel). I think the pandemic has both 1) driven home to him how little he values going out (the argument last night was precipitated by him informing me that there’s no reason to ever go to a restaurant because takeout is “the exact same thing”) and 2) given him an excuse for why he can’t do stuff he doesn’t really want to do.
            I feel like a terrible person for even contemplating sacrificing my marriage for luxuries like travel and restaurants, but I just can’t imagine spending the rest of my life as shut-ins the way he seems to want. I also worry about what his lifestyle will do to our kids who are young now but will eventually go to school and socialize with people who have more normal lifestyles and realize what they’re missing.

          3. You arent a terrible person. Going outside and doing things is not a frivolous luxury.

          5. “But he’s also not a bad person for not enjoying these things.”
            He’s not a bad person but he’s also not a person I could be married to. When two people are incompatible, it doesn’t mean either person is “bad.” It also doesn’t mean the person who wants to go out and live her life needs to just suck it up and stay with her hermit spouse and be miserable.

          6. Wow! This is so different from what the original OP seemed to be referencing, and really unreasonable/unfair to you. I am more cautious than many on COVID related things, and very pessimistic about how long we will be dealing with the pandemic, but in no way does that look like forever! Just because he never wanted to get on planes or go to restaurants in the first place doesn’t mean he now has carte blanche to ban you both from doing those things forever on a flimsy pretext. The fight for a safe, reliable vaccine and rollout may take longer than we all hope, but in the next couple of years we will certainly be past these concerns. Forever is a real long time. Sorry Anon 12PM, this is rough.

        2. “You don’t have to be the first one in the salon or on a plane.”

          That’s not at all what Anon at 11:31 was saying, and unless she lives somewhere I’m not aware of/haven’t heard about in the news, she wouldn’t be “the first one” anyway. I live in a state that is still in partial lockdown and our salons opened up two weeks ago.

          Are you married, Anon at 11:52? I feel like that’s always a relevant question when people start dispensing marital advice. Because if you aren’t married, or haven’t been in a significant long-term live-in partnership, you probably don’t get the dynamics and shouldn’t be offering your opinion or nonexistent “expertise” in this situation. I’m pretty sure you’re our resident “public health expert” who wants everyone to stay in lockdown forever – maybe you’re qualified to dispense advise on that, I don’t know.

          1. I am married. I have not chimed in that often on COVID posts. I do actually have some relevant public health expertise but what OP said in her follow ups is very different from what she said in her first post and changes my advice.

            My husband once developed a fear of flying and declared he was never flying again and I freaked out about all of the lost vacations we would have together. Luckily after a year or so he went into therapy and decided it was worth it to him to try flying again.

            If your husband didn’t previously dislike travel and restaurants I would think this is new COVID related anxiety that will subside as the health risks start to decline. With that past though, I’m not as sure. I think your concerns are valid.

    7. Sounds like you’ve gotten a lot of helpful advice already. I do have to echo those that mentioned that just because something has gone to “green” in your particular state doesn’t mean that some all-knowing public health body knows for sure that those activities are safe in your context, or in any context. Unfortunately this is all still so new to all of us, that even in states that are following the advice of their public health departments to determine phases/stages of reopening, those public health experts are all still doing a bit of a shrug and a best guess. We won’t know if we’re right until we see what happens in 2-4 weeks after we switch phases, and it depends on how individuals interpret the phases (do they wear their masks inside those 50% capacity restaurants or non-essential businesses?).
      So this next phase of reopening in the pandemic does require each of us to make our own risk assessments about everything. That’s not to say that your husband’s assessment is correct, but rather that we will all need to be having these frustratingly endless conversations over and over as new information is available and new data comes out, until there is a vaccine. I don’t think there is any shortcut.

      I like the comments from some others here about asking him to articulate what metrics we’d have to hit for him to think these activities will be safe, or if there are some activities he can see doing sooner while others he thinks should stay off limits. For example, I personally find it hard to imagine there being a truly safe way to reopen the interiors of restaurants, whatever the capacity, but I have already eaten at a restaurant patio and really enjoyed it and felt it was low risk. I would not spend a long day at the pool with kids who would need to all be in and out of the bathroom multiple times, but would think about going to the pool for a set period of time at a lower traffic time of day. Indoor gyms may always be too risky for him until there is a vaccine, but could you plan a socially distanced hike with another family? Can you plan a trip just with your family where you will stay in an AirBnb and still socially distance from others outside your family bubble, but still get to take time off work and enjoy a new and beautiful location?

      I think the more risk averse person does have to get a little more sway, but it does need to be a conversation. I am more cautious than my husband, and the conversations have been really tough but at the end of the day we talk through things and come to compromises and generally can find a way at the end to see eye to eye. We have the most challenges around seeing his mother- she is in her early 60s, relatively healthy, but I would like to be extremely cautious about seeing her given our higher levels of exposure (live in the city, have a bunch of contractors into our newly purchased house for projects, see our friends for socially distanced quarantinis on separate blankets in the park, have been to protests). He finds it frustrating that my concerns about exposing her seriously limit how we can spend time with her, feels a lot of guilt in general about not seeing her enough, knowing she wants more contact, and so we have to work hard to strike the right balance.

      1. I think this is reasonable for the most part, but I don’t think you should get to make decisions about him seeing his mother. That’s between him and her – if they are both comfortable with the risks, it’s not your place to tell them they’re not allowed to have contact because you’re worried about the risks to her.

        1. +1 You’re a grown adult and get to choose that you’re OK with the risks of hiring contractors for your house, seeing friends, and going to protests. Shouldn’t she also, as a grown adult, get to choose her own risk levels?

      2. Sorry, yes, we should see her! I just mean, I think we shouldn’t share food when we do, or spend time indoors without masks on. Things he grudgingly sort of knows I’m right about but finds to be a hassle. Totally agree that your own relationship with your parents is your own, but I think that if you want to take on riskier behaviors you need to justify that you have a good reason to think its necessary/safe enough, rather than just that its annoying to not grab from the bowl of communal snacks or have the mask on your face. It also becomes more complicated because his sister is also in the area, and is seeing their mom a lot more, including indoors without masks. I can’t control what SIL/MIL decide to do together, even though I don’t think that’s a good idea either given what we know of SIL family’s level of exposures through their kids and their neighborhood. I can, however, participate in the discussion with my husband about what we’ll do. For example, if he finds it really important to spend indoor time with his mom, including indoors and meals, I’m game. But I strongly believe that means we then we need to stop going to protests, be super duper careful about contractors and limit socially distanced hangouts with friends. He hasn’t shown any interest in making those changes.

    8. Sorry, but your husband is being perfectly reasonable. Gyms, offices, restaurants, and salons are some of the riskiest places you could go right now. An outdoor pool is safer if you can keep your distance from other people and avoid the restrooms, but if I were your husband I wouldn’t trust your judgment at the pool if you were wanting to dine in at restaurants.

      The state’s “green” status means next to nothing. Governments and public health authorities everywhere have fallen down on the job and are making decisions for purely political reasons with no scientific basis. In my state, republicans are criticizing the governor for not moving from phase 2 to phase 3 exactly two weeks after entering phase 2, when there is no way that the inevitable rebound in cases would have shown up after just two weeks of relaxed restrictions. It’s 100% about politics and 0% about science. You and your husband need to be watching the actual numbers (7-day moving average of new cases, hospital capacity, 7-day moving average of deaths, percentage of positive tests, reproduction rate) yourselves to determine when it’s safe.

      When it comes to risk assessment in a marriage, the more cautious partner should always prevail. You don’t take a risk unless both partners agree to it.

      1. “When it comes to risk assessment in a marriage, the more cautious partner should always prevail. You don’t take a risk unless both partners agree to it.”

        This is pretty terrible marriage advice. I feel sorry for anyone in a relationship where this is the prevailing sentiment. I haven’t seen that marriages where one person is held hostage to the other person’s anxiety are very happy, or last very long.

        1. I think it’s gaslighting to pathologize precautions taken during a global pandemic as “anxiety.” I think this is fine advice as applied to thinks like “getting a motorcycle” or “recreational drugs.”

        2. I don’t think you’ve seen many marriages go through a pandemic. Because no one has. I don’t know why you think you have such expertise in this.

          I feel sorry right now for anyone married to these “no mask it’s my personal freedom” folks while they are bringing it back to households who have no say.

    9. I would respect your husband’s wishes. I am also in PA. I think we will see rising cases in the next month because many do think that “green” means everything is fine. That said, there are activities you can do that are lower risk than going to a restaurant or gym. Why not rent a boat for the day? Maybe get a backyard pool. Go for a hike. I personally think the public pool should be fine, but maybe offer to go one evening when it is less busy, bring your own chairs, and stay away from everyone.

  13. Two people asked about my experience at College of Charleston on yesterday’s morning post – I posted a reply this morning and am adding it here in case anyone else is curious:

    I graduated in 2010 so the job market wasn’t really great anywhere. I did live in Charleston an extra year after graduating working odd retail and other jobs because all of my friends were still living there. I ended up moving back home to the DC area in order to get a job. Charleston itself is great for jobs if you go into the medical or hospitality fields. There are also several defense contractors there now. It was about 70% female when I was there and I did date a boy from the Citadel (so that stereotype definitely fits) but I didn’t marry him. I liked that it was heavily female dominated because in classes the women’s voices never got drowned out by the men, but unlike a women’s college, we still got the male perspective and got experience working with men. The image of the pretty, slightly stupid, MRS. seeker was definitely still around when I was there but it was changing. Probably because the school was heavily recruiting out of state students and offering large scholarships to smart students (how I ended up there). One of my freshman roommates was also on scholarship from out of state and she is now an ER doctor. I feel like I got the small liberal arts school experience without the giant price tag

    1. Thank you for writing in! This is great to hear. I live in CLT and we seem to get heavily recruited (with discounts to rack-rate OOS tuition) to USC (annecdata of friends with older kids who didn’t get into UNC but still had good grades/good scores/etc.), but CoC is more what I think one kiddo would like. USC is great and Columbia is quite fun to visit, but I don’t think that one size fits all and will definitely take a tour with kiddos the next time that is an option (Citadel, too, since that fight was going on when I was in law school; you never know).

    2. I just think of it as an all white finishing school for kids with wealthy parents. Like Fairfield but in the South.

      1. Disagree — it is a state school, so if you are from SC, it is very INexpensive and is attended by the sort of person who needs a job on day 1. The old COC/Citadel thing probably wasn’t even true past my mother’s generation (she went to that sort of school in another state on scholarship and finished in 3 years to get married b/c they kicked out married women then). Most of the people I’ve worked with who are from there are black and are first-generation college graduates who are very involved with their school as alumni and have really sung its praises. Their jobs are sufficient to let them have a good QOL (defined as apartments in desirable areas without having to have roommates in your 20s) even if they have taken out some student loans. As a parent, I think initial career offerings may be tilted in favor of CLT/ATL employers (but that is true at USC/UGA/UNCC) if you don’t go on for another degree (I know of one lawyer who is a guy who went there undergrad and had a good time for very different reasons than would be relevant to me).

        1. The Mrs. degree stereotype was true past your mother’s generation (unless you’re a teenager, in which case I am your mother’s generation…) Because the pretty, rich, not academically inclined girls from my school DID go to school there. The idea of CofC becoming a school for first-gen students needing a job on day 1 is a drastic change, and maybe one they’ve needed to make to stay in operation. But all I know is that 20 years ago, I knew the pretty, wealthy, Mrs. degree type (and the Citadel boys on the other side of this equation) personally.

      2. I will admit to it being overwhelmingly white while I was there, probably close to 80%. But it definitely wasn’t wealthy. It’s a public school that is part of the University of South Carolina system and is very affordable if you are in state and offers (or did 15 years ago) generous scholarships. Most of my friends had parents that were teachers or mid level office workers or farmers. Everyone I knew worked throughout school as waitresses or retail or receptionists

  14. Hi everyone! I’m a recent graduate and feel lucky to have made it far into a job interview for a journalism job, but now I’m agonizing over some simple mistakes I had made in some writing samples they wanted me to do. It was timed, and I’m now rereading it and found a glaring typo at the beginning, and found one other mistake toward the end of the sample (the thought in the sentence is incomplete, basically).

    Has anyone reviewed an interviewee’s timed writing sample and saw mistakes? What were your thoughts and was it a dealbreaker? Overall, I think it was pretty good given the time, and I think I’m a strong candidate otherwise, but obviously I should have planned my time out better and set aside 10 min. to proof. I’m so mad at myself for potentially messing this up. If I have the chance to explain myself, are there best ways I can present myself to show that this was not my best work, but I think I hit the major points well, show humility, etc.? I’m just so worried now that I blew my chance, all because I didn’t plan it out well :(

    Stories, good and bad, would be helpful, as well as any advice. Thank you!

    1. It might depend, for me, on how long the exercise was. 20 minutes? I would not be put off by a couple of typos. An hour or longer? I think I would expect more polish. How long is the work product? If it’s several pages, two typos would not put me off, but if it’s a page or shorter, it would be more noticeable.

    2. Ya just gotta chill. No one can answer these questions. You have to wait and see what happens.

    3. I guess it might be industry-specific, but personally, I wouldn’t bat an eye at typos in a timed writing sample. Frankly if you have a typo in your prepared writing sample, I’m probably not going to notice or care. We have proofreaders on staff, your typos are not a big deal.

    4. I have been involved in hiring people for journalism jobs and reviewing timed tests. The mistake will be factored in to the decision, but it’s not a dealbreaker. We hired someone once who misspelled the name of the newspaper she was applying to, and she was a great copy editor who worked with us for years.

    5. Typos wouldn’t be disqualifying if I were judging a timed writing sample — that’s what editors are for. What’s more important is how you present information and whether you can articulate it clearly.

    6. This really depends on the type of writing sample and the purpose for the writing sample and the position. Some positions typos would be a big deal in others not at all. It also depends on the reader. Personally I don’t find typos to be that big of a deal and I’m in an industry that is notoriously harsh on typos (Biglaw). I care much more about substance, we have proofreaders who charge much lower rates for our clients.

      In any event, the time has passed and there’s nothing you can do about it! I know that it’s harder said than done but there worrying about your performance isn’t going to change anything. Think back to when you were in school, did agonizing over a paper or test you already submitted ever make a difference in the outcome? Don’t borrow trouble. And now you know for future writing samples to budget time for proofreading but don’t beat yourself up over something you can’t change!

    7. Not in journalism, but we do test candidates as part of the interview process. In my case, it’s an excel modeling and writing exercise for an investment banking role. I will tell you that 90% of my hiring decision is on the in-person interviewer. Especially for recent grads, I’m looking for someone with a good attitude, with a personality that’s a fit for the job and the firm (and me), and someone who has a good aptitude for the job. The test is really designed to weed out anyone who is clearly lacking the basic skills for the role.
      Even if it’s different in your industry, I’m sure the rest of the application process still has a lot of weight. Show an eagerness to work hard and to learn in the interviews. Own your errors, but move past them. Don’t dwell on them or let them shake your confidence. And good luck!!

    8. So I used to grade the writing tests we gave for recent college grads looking for jobs in my division in my company. Granted, we are not journalists, but a couple typos would not be a deal breaker. Deal breakers were things like failing to address all parts of the writing prompt (surprisingly common), incorrect analysis (also surprisingly common), and just poor writing mechanics (not as common). We can work with someone to develop a checklist for avoiding typos, we don’t have time to teach someone how to fully answer a question or understand basic data.

      For a journalist job, I would think that dealbreakers would be things like failing to address all parts of the writing prompt, incorrectly characterizing a source’s position on the topic and/or misquoting someone, bad writing mechanics, and failing to write in the style expected (if you’re writing a news article, that would mean a solid newsy lede, writing top-down with the most important points or quotes of the article coming first, etc.; if you’re writing a human interest piece, that would mean an interesting “hook” for the lede, good intro to the person’s character or motivations, etc.).

      Could the typos be disqualifying? Sure. Are they likely to be? Probably not, unless someone else had a flawless writing sample AND interviewed the same as you or better. Are they going to ask you to explain yourself for your typos? Definitely not. If you don’t get the offer, are they going to tell you if it’s because of a couple typos? No.

    9. No advice here, but congratulations for getting this far in the interview process! Journalism is my dream field and I’ve been trying to figure out how to pivot my career towards it. Good luck in the rest of the process and report back!

    10. Thanks everyone for your advice–even if I don’t get this job, it’s helpful to hear the views here for next time! I’m definitely a person who dwells on mistakes and is really hard on herself. It was a 3 hour exercise and 4.5 pages single spaced, so it’s a long piece with a few different viewpoints that I had to touch. Trying to move on and send good vibes into the world that I am able to move on in the process. Especially in this economy! thanks again!

  15. Okay, am I just “get off my lawn” old on this or am I justified? Why do people think it’s okay and not rude to be on speakerphone in public places with other people?! I’ve been hanging out on my building’s common patio. Yesterday, someone walked out full on speakerphone videochatting on this phone. Right now, there’s a guy on his laptop on a video meeting, speakers blaring. I’m also on meetings…but I wear headphones! Grr…

    1. Yeah it’s rude af. My major pet peeve, though, is when people let their kids listen to cartoons on airplanes without headphones. My rule is no headphones, no sound, no exceptions.

      2. +2 million. This is probably my biggest pet peeve. And for context, I have a 4 and a 6 year old we fly with often. No headphones, no sound. Sorry.

      3. I’m and older Millennial and this behavior drives me NUTS. It’s not just kids though – within the last year we were on a flight were an ADULT WOMAN listened to family videos on her phone’s speaker the entire flight, including the 2 extra hours we sat on the tarmac for a thunderstorm. I wanted to murder her. The only saving grace was four people around me loudly commented on how quiet and well-behaved my screenless toddler was being. FWIW I give him screen time; we just didn’t have one with us that time.

      4. Same – this is one of my biggest pet peeves! Cartoons bother me less than games with sound – the game doesn’t need to have sound to be played!!

      5. Agreed. I also get annoyed with people who listen to music at the pool without headphones.

      6. My parents live in Orlando. Several years ago, multiple kids all over the plane were watching Frozen without headphones. They all started around the time they boarded, but of course staggered a little bit. Let It Go started playing in one area, and then another, then another. DH and I must have heard that song 5 times in 20 minutes, sometimes before one even finished.

        Generally, I love the flight to Orlando. My kid is never the only kid or the worst behaved kid. And it’s heartwarming to see families excited about their Disney vacations. But the Frozen plane ride was a bit much.

        1. Wow, I didn’t even know this was a thing. I fly often (or did) for business, but it’s usually early in the morning. I would have assumed flight attendants would make passengers stop playing a movie without headphones.

          1. They literally never do. I have no idea why. You would think that would be a thing. When I’m in the situation, I almost feel like I’m in Bizarro world. Like, really, no one else is bothered that we can all hear (Frozen or whatever) from 6 aisles away??? Why isn’t anyone saying anything?

      7. Maybe some of those kids are like mine though – my son cannot tolerate the sensory feeling of headphones unfortunately. So that means video with sound on a plane. I am sure it is annoying but trust me when I tell you that the alternative is much worse.

        1. Your son has sensory issues, but so do I. And noise is one of them. So I’m not sure why I should be subjected to listening to this noise in a public place. Honestly, I would rather listen to a child fuss than an ipad. Also, for many, many years children and adults went on planes without ipads with noise. So if people can’t tolerate headphones, that’s fine. Then they should entertain themselves with something else. A book, a puzzle, things that don’t disrupt 200 other people trapped in a metal tube with you for hours.

    2. And I forgot to add to my rant…speakerphone inevitably means the person will be SHOUTING into their device to have themselves heard. Ugh!

    3. I’m with you. Our next-door neighbor conducts endless business calls in an incredibly loud voice while walking up and down his driveway. We can hear every word he says while we’re inside our house with the windows closed!

    4. i waited a half an hour to play tennis the other day while someone casually hit against the backboard and wandered around the court while having a phone call on speakerphone the entire time recently. what the what…

    5. This is my 70 year old mother. I hang up on her at this point if I know she’s in public.

    6. Oh, I almost forgot my new pet peeve – people who bike on the public bike path, walk on trails, or ride chairlifts with a tiny portable speaker blasting very loud music. SOOO obnoxious.

    7. I recognize that this is considered a Rude Thing, and I don’t do it, but I honestly don’t understand why talking to someone on speakerphone in public is worse than talking to someone IRL in public. It’s basically the same volume, so why does it matter?

      1. The problem is, it is typically not the same volume. For some reason it usually involves some level of louder talking, especially on the person using the speaker.
        The other thing that annoys me about it that is different: if you are having a (likely quieter) conversation near me with someone else IRL, I recognize that there is nothing you can do to mitigate my hearing you and therefore it usually is background noise to me in that case. However, if you are on speaker, you DO have an entirely other reasonable option for me NOT to hear at least half of what is going on, so it just irks me that you have that option and are actively choosing not to do it.

      2. It’s not the same volume as a real conversation. The person always yells into the phone.

      3. it’s louder, people stand closer to you (because there’s not another person there) and speakerphone conversations take place a lot more often than IRL conversations. ie the person taking the concall in his driveway – how often would he hold an actual meeting in his driveway? Never.

        I’m sympathetic to poor cell signal in the house. I have an old two story house with thick walls, so wifi and cell signal in the middle of the house is an ongoing problem. For wifi, strategically placed mesh thingies help, but there’s no such solution for cell. I have to stand or sit right next to one of two windows in my house to be able to take a call. Maybe that’s why the guy does it in his driveway. But still, there must be at least one interior space where he could make this work.

  16. Hello, after trying for a year, my husband and I have been referred to a wonderful reproductive endocrinologist, and we apparently have great insurance that will cover a good deal of treatment, which was a pleasant surprise. At this point, I’ve had a Zoom consultation appointment and started a battery of tests this week (bloodwork, sonogram, and HSG next week). I guess I’m looking for any advice from veterans about how to manage my expectations around fertility procedures and how you dealt with nosy family and others who want to know why you haven’t had a baby yet. AND I want to hear success stories, because those have been really nice to read.

    The past year has been a rollercoaster for SO many reasons, and I’ve been feeling all over the place about the fact that we aren’t able to do what all of my closest friends have had no trouble doing (literally all four of my closest girlfriends who are parents have made comments about it being SO easy for them to get pregnant), so I’m feeling rather alone in this. We also don’t want to tell our parents because we don’t want to be scrutinized (they mean well, but are all a bit nosy) or have them asking too many questions if this takes a long time, or doesn’t happen for us.

    I’m so tired of the “it’s your turn next!” or “when are you going to have a baby?” or “don’t wait too long! (subtext: because you’re getting old)” from so many people who have NO business asking. Also got extremely annoyed this winter by a 22 year old cousin of my husband who told both me (33) and my SIL (34 and 7 mos pregnant at the time) at 22 y.o’s sex reveal party that she’d “hate to be an old mom”. PEOPLE. THINK.

    Sorry for the novel. I’d post this on the moms site, but it’s been hard lately for me to read too much about people who already have children when we haven’t been successful in TTC. And any infertility forums I’ve read have been… either intensely stupid (no baby dust for me, thanks), or just too intense.

    1. People aren’t mind-readers. And while, yes, in a perfect world, no one would comment on anyone’s fertility, that’s not reality. A simple statement like, “Mom/sis/friend, we do want a family, but it hasn’t happened for us yet. We’re seeing specialists, but for now, it’s a really tough topic for us. Would you mind not asking us about it? We’ll update you when we have something to share/when we’re comfortable.” Mom/sis/friend can then quietly spread the word, and voila, comments (mostly) stop because people aren’t being insensitive on purpose – they just don’t know.

      We chose not to pursue IVF and to adopt instead, so I can’t speak to managing those expectations, but overall, eventually you grieve and accept that your life doesn’t work how you’d expect. In this case, perhaps start with grieving that this just won’t happen automatically for you.

    2. Ok I did not go to fertility treatment but I want to support you on two things

      1) I hate gender reveal parties
      2) 22 year olds are idiots. I say this as a former idiotic 22 year old.

      Hang in there!! You have every reason for optimism right now and it really, truly doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks.

      2. Used to work with a former Army captain who said “18-23 year olds are the absolute stupidest MFers you’ll ever meet, and we trust them with guns and tanks. Baffling.” I think about that a lot….

    3. That’s really tough. One suggestion is responding to comments with “actually we have been trying to get pregnant but so far no luck. I don’t want to get into the details but we will let you know if we have foo we to share.” Hopefully that would shut people down and make them more sensitive.
      As for your friends, I promise you that you are surrounded by people who did not get pregnant quickly or easily. I miscarries the first time I was pregnant and only then learned the same was true for life 75% of my friends who had kids. If you open up, perhaps others will, but it’s a topic that we are stupidly secretive about as a society.
      I also found most forums to be mind numbing but I did really enjoy a series of letters that Dahlia Lithwick and Emily Bazelon wrote to each other about their miscarriages and pregnancies.
      Most of all, good luck.

      1. I just really don’t want to share that info since I don’t want well-intentioned people who don’t get it to give even more unsolicited advice.

        And yes, I know there are definitely some people around me who have struggled– it’s just that any of my friends that I’m close enough to talk to about these things didn’t.

    4. apologies in advance for the novel – we decided to wait to try due to life circumstances and then had a miscarriage. i also felt like all of our friends were pregnant/had kids and i wanted them, especially bc we had already been married for a while and many of our friends had been married for less time. in terms of your closest girlfriends, if these people really are your closest friends, i would clue them in a bit as they will want to support you. we had a friend who got pregnant on the first try with their first kid and then it took them almost a year with their second, and so they are likely (insensitively) just talking about their own experience. in terms of your parents, even if they are nosy, aren’t they going to continue being nosey and asking things that are likely insensitive to your situation if you don’t tell them something. can you just say something to them like “we would like to have kids and are trying to get pregnant, and are currently seeking medical advice. please do not ask us about it again, but we will mention it when we have something to share.” in terms of the 22 year old cousin – how about, “we would like to be established in our careers so we can adequately provide for our child.” personally, i think 22 year olds are too young to be parents. more generally when people would make comments, depending on how i was feeling at the moment and the person, i would either say something light hearted in response like “we are working on it,” or “we’d love to be parents when the time is right for us,” or “that is something personal” or just try to change the subject. i remember how hard it was to be in your shoes. There is a blog – Lemon Stripes – where the blogger dealt with infertility and miscarriages and another – Kelly in the City – whose posts both resonated with me (search infertility on their sites). And if you are really struggling – there are therapists who specialize in this. I sought one out.

      1. Eh, our parents really *are* the nosy types, going off of past history and the way my SIL was scrutinized by my ILs for her two relatively textbook pregnancies. I’d really prefer not to disclose to them, especially because I’ll get a lot of questions and questionable medical “advice” along the way.

        I think 99% of 22 year olds are too young too (particularly this one!), but I held my tongue. Thank you for the blog recs!

        1. if it helps, now that I’m in my 50s, everyone I know, including my sister, who had kids in their late teens/early 20s was not ready to be an empty nester in their late 30s/early 40s.

          The majority of them went on to have basically a second family at that point (most often with a new spouse) so they were older moms anyway, and honestly, their older kids kind of got screwed over.

    5. This is so hard. My husband and I were successful with multiple rounds of IVF after a very difficult journey and actually got pregnant naturally with our second (which was a total shock to say the least.)

      People say the dumbest and most hurtful things without even realizing it; the “I’d never want to be an old mom” ones really stung for me too (and I still find them hurtful now that I’m an “old mom, not by choice”–not that the reason for my age should matter, but the fact that we didn’t get a choice in that aspect of our family still stings a little.) Honestly, I found that the best way to shut down a lot of this talk was to just refuse to engage. I met more than one hurtful/nosy comment with a blank stare and total silence. I know it may not *sound* like the best approach, but I was in crisis mode and didn’t have the emotional capacity to try to educate every rude person about why what they’d said was inappropriate.

      1. Yes, the not wanting to educate insensitivity is the same for me. I’m deeply uncomfortable with sharing our struggles with all but one person in my life– why should I have to reveal our struggle just because someone else just said something insensitive about having kids? I think not engaging has been the best thing for me mentally– my response to if we’re having kids or when we will is typically “we’ll see”.

        I’m glad to hear IVF was successful for you! Trying to gear myself up mentally for what may be a long haul.

        1. It might be a long haul, or it may not! Ours was a really long road, but I know many others who had success the first time. So it’s good to be prepared, but don’t lose hope in the short term either. Take care of yourself and don’t worry about what others think you should be sharing, doing, etc. This is so personal and people who haven’t experienced it really can’t understand.

    6. So, I was in your exact shoes last year. I had been trying for six months with no luck, and of my 10 friends with kids, they all got pregnant within 2 months of trying, and it was so frustrating. Then I got cancer (whoops) which wrecked my fertility, and honestly it’s been weirdly freeing in this regard.

      Pre-cancer, I felt embarrassed that it was taking me longer than my friends. I was ashamed to admit we were trying and it wasn’t going well, because it seemed so easy for other people and I didn’t want to admit my failure. The societal expectation is that you get pregnant on your first try at the exact perfect moment in your life like a magical fertility wizard. It’s the “cool girl” stereotype at its worst. I also think society is also really uncomfortable with women wanting things and being open about what they want/desire.

      Now, I’m really open about it. I understand this approach is not for everyone, but I’m so much less stressed. Anyone who asks/makes a comment (including coworkers!) gets some version of my “infertility pitch”. The people in my life have responded much better than expected – they are nicer, more respectful, make fewer insensitive comments, don’t ask invasive questions, and don’t pester me for updates. I think it’s because they feel in the loop and understand that it’s going to take me years to get pregnant or adopt and that I may not be able to do either. And many are genuinely interested in my experience because I’m preparing to undergo a very cool experimental procedure – it turns out there are things beyond IVF! Basically, I found that the people in my life really rose to the occasion.

      I don’t have a success story for you because I am just starting what will be an 18 month to 2 year process, but I will say that being more open helped me a lot.

      Also, for what it is worth, my friends who all “got pregnant within 2 months”? Now that I’ve been more open about my issues, I’ve learned that there was some creative math going on there. Two admitted to actually lying about that number, and one told me she “doesn’t count the first year she was off birth control because they weren’t really trying.” Not everyone is a magical fertility wizard!

      1. Ohhh, that “cool girl” idea is so on the nose! Thank you, and good luck!

    7. I’m currently 6 months pregnant with our first child. We started trying to conceive in January 2018, saw a RE in June 2018 (since I was 38 at the time) and were lucky enough to have an obvious diagnosis after testing. Our only path forward for biological children was IVF with ICSI (due to blockage issues – IUI would not have worked for us). We did 5 egg retrievals between October 2018 and October 2019 because we wanted to “bank” embryos so that we could hopefully have more than one child (since I was already 38/39, I didn’t want to gamble on having another successful retrieval in my 40s after we (hopefully) had our first baby). Note that most insurance, including ours, doesn’t let you bank embryos – so insurance covered about $40K and we were another $40K out of pocket. I know how lucky we are that this was possible for us.

      Ways to manage your expectations:
      – You will have good days when you feel really optimistic. You will have bad days when you feel really down about the process, the waiting, and the lack of control. Both are totally normal.
      – The law of small numbers is REALLY true, at least in IVF. Your doctor will give you averages, which is important and helpful. But remember that these are averages taken over huge data sets. For example, we chose to do PGS testing. For my age, approximately 33% of embryos will be normal. The percentage of normal embryos we had over our 5 retrievals was – 0%, 50%, 0%, 75%, 66%. Those two zero % results hurt like a motherf*cker.
      – Again for IVF, your first cycle is largely diagnostic. Your doctor has no idea how you will respond to the meds, so you might have a stellar response straight out of the gate but it is not a given. Also, different practices have different approaches. I was at MGH in Boston, which errs on the side of “lower doses, fewer embryos but better quality, less likelihood of adverse complications for the mother”. Which worked well for me, but if you’re looking on the internet and other people are retrieving 40 eggs and you’re retrieving 14, and you have the same age and diagnosis, you might get discouraged. Don’t. You really can’t compare yourself to other people.

      Re: telling people – we told all of our family and close friends. We both knew we’d need the support going through the process, and I’m so glad we did. Then again, we were also lucky enough to have supportive friends and family so that obviously plays a role. Also – one of our closest friends who NEVER mentioned any issues with conceiving, responded to our news that we were starting IVF with “Actually, we had to do IVF! Where are you going?” and it turned out she had our same doctor. There are people in your circle who have struggled and who are getting help – you just don’t know it. And I’m glad we were so open because I’ve been able to be the “friend who has been there” for other people who don’t feel comfortable sharing with other friends or with their family, so you never know who else you can be helping, besides just yourself, by being open.

      I’ll be thinking of you!

      1. Thank you, this is helpful! I’m in Chicago, but my practice also has the same approach in terms of quality over quantity, which seems to be a good thing.

        I don’t think my friends would be insensitive at all, but I have a very small circle and they literally all have explicitly shared how easy it was for them to get pregnant for all of their kids. I just want to be able to talk to a friend that’s gone through what I have, and while I know they’re out there, they aren’t in my friend circle. I have shared with my closest friend who is engaged but not yet trying. She tends to be my go-to person for tough stuff, so it’s nice to have someone to talk to, but she hasn’t been there.

        And it’s not that I don’t think our families would be supportive, they’re all (well, my mom and my MIL) just nosy and overshare with the rest of our huge extended families. I also feel like I have to manage my mom’s feelings around everything because she desperately wants to be a grandmother and because my brother is CFBC, if it happens, it’s going to be through me. She’s let me know how sad she is about not having a grandchild yet more than once, and last time she brought it up, I let her know she needed to manage her own feelings around that, and she didn’t handle that too well.

        Congrats on your pregnancy!

        1. Thank you!

          I have no idea whether this is available in Chicago, but my yoga studio in Boston has yoga classes specifically for women trying to conceive (and explicitly NOT for women who are already pregnant). It’s called Fertile Body Yoga, but I’d probably just try googling fertility yoga generally and see if anything pops up. At least for me, it was a super slow and chill mostly restorative class with some gentle flow and a lot of postures that emphasize blood flow in the pelvic region. It was a great way to chill out for 90 minutes a week with other people in the same boat, and also meant I got to chit-chat in person with other people who were going through similar challenges (even though it ran the gamut from people experiencing secondary infertility to people going through IUI or IVF, people who had been trying 2 years but hadn’t seen a doctor yet, and even one woman who was trying to summon the courage to try for a second child after breaking her pelvis delivering her first!). It felt like a very healing and safe space for everyone.

        2. Hi, I am also in Chicago and also in the thick of this. And also debated the “who should know” quandary. If you’d like to talk, p0st a burner e=ma1l. If not, I understand! Hugs to you, my friend. I hope for better news for us.

    8. We’ve struggled to get pregnant and we began fertility treatments nearly a year ago. We’re open about it and it completely cuts out all that inappropriate questioning. When people ask nosily “when are you having kids?” I have no problem replying “when I stop having miscarriages.”
      People then often start to think they can inquire about said fertility treatments, and I’m not super comfortable telling them all the details. So I’ll say something like “we’re seeing a doctor and hoping for the best. When there’s news, we’ll let you know.” Had to get a bit more stringent with MIL and straight up tell her “it’s none of your business.” On the flip side, it turns out that quite a few of our acquaintances also had fertility problems that we wouldn’t have known about if we hadn’t been open about our issues, and that’s been kind of comforting.

      1. I’m so sorry about your miscarriages. And I’m right there with you on the nosy MIL.

    9. Hi, OP. Sending you all the hugs that I can. We have one successful fertility-treatment baby and are days away from our procedure to hopefully have #2.

      We started TTC/got off the pill after about 13 years at 31. After ~10 months I just knew in my gut something was weird, not the least of which was highly irregular cycles. I’ll spare the details, but ultimately got referred to a fertility center and started the diagnostic work in Month 10, had a diagnosis in Month 12 and ended up having surgery to repair a newly discovered uterine deformity in month 14. Once the surgery was behind me we had to tackle fertility issue #2 (PCO/I do not ovulate, like at all). I had to do three IUI cycles before one worked and I now have a healthy two year old. We are actively in treatments for #2, hopefully having our first IUI in a matter of days (grow, follicles, grow!). I’m doing nightly injections, daily ultra sounds and blood work and god willing we’ll be a family of four some day soon enough. We were in the middle of trying for #2 initially when COVID took over. That’s it’s own kind of hell that has made this extra tough this go-round. While we have objectively good insurance and coverage for treatments I am now past the magic age of 35. I fear insurance won’t approve a second IUI (even though I got three approved last time) and we’ll have to go to IVF. Should know in a matter of days….

      It’s exhausting. There’s no way around it. A few words of wisdom:
      – Stay far away from the various online forums. There are far more ill informed people willing to spew ‘advice’ than you’ll ever want to know. Reddit has a forum that was actually helpful for me, and is the only online source I’d recommend. It’s highly moderated and no cutesey ‘babydust’ type crap. They’ll ban you from the page for that. It’s a little intense initially but helped me learn some key words and concepts that my doctor/clinic weren’t explaining to me. Armed with info that I could then go use to advocate for myself (see my next bullet…). I can’t remember it’s name specifically but it’s very active and someone here might be able to remember and recommend.
      – Fertility clinics sort of just suck, even good ones from what I can tell. They’re massive operations and machines. It’s a very profitable business and volumes are key. The first time around I was so frustrated and felt so lost. Something so personal felt commoditized, and that was probably my biggest emotional hurdle – not only was it not working, no one would take the time to explain to me exactly what was going on. Now with #2 we are still facing that but I know to speak up and what to say to get what I need. A personal referral to a clinic or specific RE is my best suggestion if you find yourself in need.
      – Talking about it. As soon as I let my inner circle in (friends and sisters. still no mom) and let them know about our struggles, which came around/after the surgery because the recovery was the pits and I couldn’t bring myself to lie any longer, a huge and giant weight was lifted. After baby #1 was healthy on her way in my belly, I told anyone who wanted to know what our struggle was. I am a huge, giant, massive proponent of education. Even that terrible 22 year old, I would check that so fast. Education and awareness would have saved me meaningful time in my journey and I hope to do the same for someone else down the road. I’d encourage you that, when and if you’re ready, be open and share with folks what you went through. I’ve also found that with #2, no one has once asked me when our next baby is coming. By being honest about what happened with #1 people seem to know to give us time and space.
      – IT SUCKS. It sucks. It sucks. It’s unfair. It’s not your fault. God bless science and the fact we’re going through this in 2020, amiright?! Be as defeated and as upset as you want because it’s warranted.

      1. Thank you, this was so helpful! I feel like if I get pregnant, I’m going to be telling ALL the people who have asked painful questions exactly what we had to go through so they’ll know better than to ask questions like that again. And yes, I keep saying to my husband that I’m glad I live in a time and place and have the ability to pursue treatment.

    10. I am not in your shoes, but the insensitivity and rudeness makes me rage-stroke.

      After having people all but launch a Go Pro up my uterus when I got married at the age of 38, I went with, “My body is not a topic of discussion or a source of entertainment. If you insist on treating me like that, you do not have a place in my life.” My husband has seen enough of my hurt to be enlisted in shutting this down.

      It is really hard to explain how dehumanising it all was. I honestly think some of my in-laws only supported the wedding because they thought I was a high-quality baby factory. It’s just so hurtful, like, I’m not the super-smart, successful athlete who would like to have kids… I’m just here to s–t out babies for their amusement. So, so hurtful.

    11. Hi OP – Chicagoan here. I’m sorry that you are going through this alone or close to alone. A few recs:
      – Therapist: If you’re with NorthShore, they have a Moms phone line where you call, give them your insurance info and location, and they’ll give you a list of therapists in your area you can look up. Ask your RE or gyn for a rec too.
      – Pulling Down The Moon group: In Chicago or Highland Park, they offer fertility yoga, acupuncture, etc. Really gentle and kind people. Even if you don’t think it necessarily makes a physical difference, it might make a mental difference to meet other women in a low-stress environment who share the same experience as you.
      – There’s a (private) Facebook group called “The Chutney Life TTC” from a blogger, Palak Patel. Lots of shared experiences and commiseration in this group, judgment-free from people who are going through it.
      -Couple sub-reddits: r/TryingforaBaby (excellent resources, see sidebar), r/TTCafterLoss

      A few experiences from me:
      – This is purely biology – it is not personal, though dang if it doesn’t feel that way!
      – My external response to nosy people was a glare.
      – People don’t know any better and sometimes they think it’s appropriate conversation (it. is. not.). Only people who have gone through it know that.
      – I liken this experience to the opposite of online reviews (if you have a good experience, you don’t write about it but if you have a bad experience, immediate internet review rage). People love to share when they’ve conceived quickly but there is a silent, significant group of women who have struggled/are struggling. Just because one group is more visible doesn’t mean that the other group does not exist.
      – Everyone goes through their own bad stuff. I didn’t know until I shared my preg news with my aunt that she had two miscarriages between her two sons (who are 6 years apart).

      Best wishes to you. It’s okay to have good days and it’s okay to have bad days. Much support from an internet stranger.

    12. Chiming in with a success story. Sometimes it’s a long and drawn out process, but not always. I started medications to prep for retrieval within a 6 weeks of my first meeting with an RE. Retrieval was successful, first attempt at implantation was successful, and now I’m due in a month. I’m 42.

      I spent years deflecting nosy questions – my go to response to shut people up who I didn’t know well was a simple, ‘why do you ask?’ followed by a dead stare. Very effective. When family, etc. I softened it a bit to, ‘we’re hopeful but no luck yet. If I have something to share I’ll let you know. If I’m not sharing, please assume it’s not something I want to talk about.”

    13. Hey, not sure if you’re still checking, wanted to chime in just in case.

      We tried for a year before we saw an RE, then had about 1 year of testing and IUIs, then about 1 year of multiple IVF cycles (banking PGS normal embryos as a prior poster mentioned) before finally getting pregnant with my son (now 20 months). I am fortunate enough that we were able to use a banked embryo for a current second pregnancy. So, 5 years after we first started trying, we have #2 on the way. It was an extremely long and emotionally difficult first 3 years – so I completely feel your pain.

      Some things that helped me get through it:
      – Lurking the Reddit infertility forum mentioned above
      – Finding a friend in real life (through my church, connected by someone who knew what we were each going through) who was also going though treatment and who had her baby 1 month after mine
      – Finding an infertility-focused therapist
      – Eventually going on a teeny dose of Zoloft for 2 months which culminated in the first pregnancy – never needed it before or since but it was a huge help!
      – Deciding which friends/family I could trust with this and which had no right to my private life. The ones that found numerous ways to mention how easy it was for them to get pregnant on the first try- no way.

      I didn’t get too many questions about when we would have kids but I do remember making a puzzled/disgusted face when a relative asked once, which shut it down!

      This is so much more common than you might think. Now I am through it I try to at least mention that it wasn’t easy for us to get pregnant, if it comes up, and it has opened up conversations with others who are in your shoes looking for someone to talk to.

      I am sending you all kinds of best wishes and hopeful vibes. You are strong. You can do this!

  17. Pet owners: our good friend’s dog just died (of old age). Our friend is male, and married in his mid 30s with no kids. This dog meant a LOT to him and has been with him for 15 years. (FWIW his wife was only so-so about the dog as they have only been together a few years, but appreciated how much her husband loved him!).

    Other than a text, can you think of anything that you’ve send or received to a friend/loved one when a pet has died? Our friend is super techy and would appreciate something like socks with his dog’s face on them (but he already has those). I’m thinking of a donation to a good cause. Any other good ideas?

    This is my husband’s best friend, who has been a good friend as we’ve grown up and had kids and he’s been off in silicone valley doing SV things like wearing cashmere hoodies and adopting a rescue dog that because his company mascot ;).

    1. Make a nice donation to the rescue where he found his dog in his pup’s memory. Or the local humane society.

      1. +1. A close friend did this a few years ago for me when my family dog passed and I was beyond touched.

    2. A friend sent me flowers when my dog passed and it meant a lot. Since I felt like my dog was people, it was nice for my friend to respond as though my dog was people.

      1. Oh man, I think you posted this a month or so ago and it absolutely made me bawl.

    4. It might not seem like enough, but a sympathy card in the mail was really impactful when I lost my furry bestie.

    5. I love the idea of doing a donation in dog’s name. I really appreciated getting a heartfelt sympathy card when my kitties passed. There are lots of Etsy shops for personalized pet portraits, ornaments, etc. if he would like something like that. If you talk to him, ask him how he’s doing and be open to letting him talk about the dog or sharing memories.

    6. My best friend sent me a lovely framed photo of my dog (she’s a professional photographer and had taken it a few years earlier). I also like the charitable donation idea.

    7. I always send flowers or nice, easy to care for plant with a card about how much I loved their dog. People have always been very appreciated (I’m often the only one who sends flowers).

    8. I’ve appreciated cards with notes about my dog (she was in our holiday card photos for years, so everyone felt like they “knew” her even if they lived on the other side of the country) – bonus points if you can find a pet sympathy card (Papyrus used to make a good one, but I think they’re out of business). Also, donation in my dog’s name to our local animal shelter or to Best Friends Animal Sanctuary. And you’re a really nice person to be thinking of this.

    9. We lost our dog a few months ago. A good friend made a Google Photos album where our friends shared any pictures she had of him. We got around 20 pictures and videos we’d mostly never even seen before, it was so touching!

    10. I gave a friend a little engraved stone for her garden with her dog’s name that I bought on Etsy. She loved it, but she’s a very specific sort of dog-lover.

    11. The book Dog Heaven by Cynthia Rylant. I am not religious, and while I am skeptical of the concept of heaven for people, I have no hesitation embracing the idea that dogs deserve the imagined heaven, without fences, with fluffy clouds for sleeping and dog treats shaped like mailmen and squirrels. I have given this to several people who have lost dogs, and it has been a universally appreciated gift. There’s a Cat Heaven, too.

      1. That reminded me of the book “The Dog Chapel,” which also may be a good option.

  18. Frivolous questions:
    1) Does anyone have any favorite Spotify channels they would recommend (or even just fun full albums, or artist featured pages you keep returning to – to have on on the background)? Something that’s not one of the major recommended ones I maybe wouldn’t find on my own? I generally like folky/indie/classic rock/some pop/80s hairbands once in awhile… open to a lot of things.
    2) I feel like this has been asked before, but are there any electronic magazines one would recommend? I’m looking for something to casually read on evenings/weekends when I’m not in the mood for my book. I’m not big on just noodling around on the web/feel unsatisfied after doing so/get too tempted while working to browse the websites. I was thinking an actual (electronic) magazine I would feel more satisfied from, and be less likely to pick up while I’m working? Maybe?

    Thanks!

    1. 1) Lo-Fi beats, Hipster Cocktail Party, Happy Hits, Classic Acoustic., Harry Style’s new album (honestly, so good), This is: Jess Glynne. Also love searching around for playlists of French cafe music. I find I like the beats and since it’s not in English, I’m not finding myself accidentally listening to what the words are.

    2. 1) I always go back to the Deep Dark Indie playlist under the “moods” section. It is not actually deep/dark, but I find it to be really good background music for working. (Also just generally I listen to a lot of Florence + The Machine).

    4. For Indie/Folky music thats good in the background, I recommend Jason Isbell and the 400 Unit, the Highwomen, Wailing Jennys, and all of their radio stations that go off of them.

    5. Do you know Sarah Jarosz? Favorite songs include Build Me Up From Bones, House of Mercy, Annabelle Lee, and Be My Husband (she recorded this as part of a trio). I like her older works better than her newer, but you might like her new things better for background noise.

    7. My go-tos are The Atlantic and New York Magazine. Also The New Yorker but somehow my subscription got messed up and I haven’t gotten unmessed so I’m on hiatus from it.

    8. If you like folky/indie I would recommend getting into older folk music, either genuine old-timey music (I like the Carter Family and the Kossoy Sisters a lot) or old-school protest music (there are a lot of Smithsonian Folkways albums on Spotify).

    9. I love the “Lorem” playlist on Spotify. More pop-y, but a great background soundtrack

  19. I’m guessing there is nothing I can do about this, but I’ve been having recurring intrusive dreams that I really want to stop. I have no idea why it is happening. They are about being with this guy I maybe had a slight crush on in high school but that was over 15 years ago, I truly havent thought about him since, for the most part completely forgot he exists, am happily married, etc. Truly do not have deep seated feelings of longing for this person or anything like that, lol. It’s so bizarre and I wake up feeling completely flummoxed. Has anyone dealt with this type of thing before?

    1. Omg yes. I still regularly dream about making out with my high school boyfriend. When I saw him in person a few years ago (for our reunion), I had absolutely zero feelings towards him (unless you count a vague sense of disgust about his messy drunkenness). I’ve made my peace with the dreams but have no idea why they keep happening after all this time. My best guess is that they represent a time when I was really young and carefree.

      1. I should also note that I have tons of other recurring dreams and generally VERY vivid dreams overall, so this isn’t THAT unusual for my own baseline.

        1. Yeah, mine are vivid as well. I have dreams regularly about my HS bf and other exes too, who I absolutely am over, but those I can understand a bit better. This is just so bizarre. I think you have a really good point about representing a time when I was young and carefree. More specifically, and embarrassing to admit, I think part of me misses casual male attention/male gaze and feeling like I was generally attractive to everyone. This random guy is probably a representation of that.

    2. I have the same type of recurring dreams about a guy I dated very casually in high school (over 25 years ago). Haven’t seen him in 20+ years. Am happily married. I have no idea what it’s about. Like I will completely forget he exists and then have a week of recurring dreams about him. I agree it is annoying – not the world’s worst issue but it’s just so hard to understand why it happens. It makes no sense. I would love to know the psychological reason behind dreams like this.

    3. Ha, my HS ex-boyfriend was in my dream last night, but so were two girls from my journalism class, the house my grandparents moved out of five years ago, and one of my chickens. Brains will be brains. :)

    4. Not recurring, but my colleague made a comment about our boss being cute (he is, but also I have known him forever so BLECH) and that night he popped up in my dream and we were having an affair. I blame my colleague for this!!!

      I have ZERO ZERO ZERO romantic feelings toward my boss. I enjoy him as a boss and a friend, but NO WAY JOSE on anything else, so yes, it happens.

  20. Anon for this I’m hoping the hive can help — how do you deal with retired parents (age 70+) who are just unhappy and I don’t mean right now I’m mean for YEARS of retirement. And how do you make it so YOU don’t end up feeling stressed, sad, and pacing about it — which I’ve been doing since last night.

    The short version — both parents (Arab immigrants – but in the US 40+ years) are probably unhappy in retirement but one parent (dad) OMG. For the last 10 years since retirement life = newspaper, news, reading on the phone, and 1-2 times/wk talking to faraway friends and family. That’s it. No community involvement, no watching sports, no local friends, no part time jobs or volunteer gigs, no golf. So of course fast forward 10 years and things just aren’t right– constant complaining. Drs. have suggested depression/anxiety as did a friend who was a therapist for the early part of his career. Yet because we’re middle eastern (men talking about feelings isn’t done), he basically just dumps his unhappiness on my mother daily. It’s taking a toll on her. So then when she’s had it, she turns around and dumps it all on me under the guise of “you should know.” I mean I called to say hi yesterday, this conversation went on for over an hour of her complaining about him — and we’re sitting at noon the next day and I’m STILL stressed. And this has happened before with the dumping on me. And if I say I don’t want to/need to know or cut it off it’s because I’m a bad daughter who is so “American.”

    He now wants to pursue therapy but knowing both of them I know they’re thinking he’ll do 1 tele visit and problem solved. And maybe I’m being naive but I think a therapist will tell you to make changes, get involved etc. which isn’t something they can do for you.

    How do you deal with this? And how do you keep yourself feeling ok? I had planned to go spend a few weeks with them since I’m not going back to the office for a while and can work from there. Yet having been there before with this kind of mood, I was there for a month a few Christmases ago (manufacturing co furlough around Christmas) and I felt “stuck” — couldn’t leave because they’d know I didn’t want to be there, can’t say normal “American” things like I have to consider my own mental health, but I was EXHAUSTED when I returned; I mean sleeping 12 hours a night when I got back home — because when I’m stressed I don’t sleep much/very restless so it was like a month of sleep deprivation. Yet it’s already starting, they (obviously) know I’m not going to the office so if I don’t come home at all during the summer and stay a few weeks it’s because I don’t want to be with them with culturally is terrible. And I feel bad because I DO want to be with them, love them, etc. but I just don’t want to be stressed 24-7. (Obviously I’m single so can’t use my own family as an excuse nor have I given them a son in law or grandkids to pal around with.) Thoughts?

    1. You need to talk to a therapist about how to set healthy boundaries for yourself.

    2. OMG my parents were like this. My therapist had a really good insight about it once: “Have they EVER been happy?” And the answer was “Uh, now that you mention it… no.” And if they were gonna be unhappy no matter what, then it was somehow easier for me to distance myself and set boundaries that protected my mental health.

    3. I can’t relate to this same scenario, but can very much relate to worrying about a parent’s (in my case, only 1) life and having them dump all their emotional stress about their life on you. It took 2 panic attacks before I finally learned the tough truth is my parent has to fix their life themselves, and there will never be an exactly perfect balance between helpfully serving as a venting ear and enabling them not making any changes. I learned the hard way that the only way to really live alongside this is to have very clear boundaries of MY LIFE vs. THEIR LIFE, and to mitigate the time I spend engaging with their problems by limiting/opting in/planning for these conversations and also planning a destressor afterwards (a walk, meditation, angry music, a car drive, something). Big hugs and good luck, because I know you care about your parents, but the truth is you cannot fix this situation and IT ISNT ON YOU TO FIX.

  21. Ladies, I need some help. I’m struggling with my boss and I need some perspective as to what is reasonable. As people have left my organization, I’ve progressively taken on more and more responsibility, including the responsibility of those who were in positions higher than me. Through the additional responsibility, I’ve grown significantly as a professional. I have a colleague who has many years of experience, but doesn’t have nearly the same level of responsibility. My boss keeps telling me that my colleague will be promoted ahead of me, not because he has appropriate skills or because he is doing higher level work, but because he has more years of experience. I am having a hard time understanding this rationale. Am I being unreasonable for thinking that someone shouldn’t be promoted just because they’ve been in the workforce longer?

    1. Yuck. I’m sorry to hear it. You’re not being unreasonable – if anything, you should try to find a place that values your contributions.

    2. Simply put, it’s time to look for a new job. It totally sucks but this situation means you’re in a workplace where seniority matters more than the work. Those places are common, and it’s way better to move among them than try to move up within them.

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