Are YOU “Rich”? And If So — Why?

253 Comments

1. Hmm. I’ve read most of the comments and its fascinating. I think this has so much to do with how one grew up.

   I grew up poor and an immigrant – food stamps, school lunches, the whole deal. I never, ever had new clothes. There are these bags of clothes that get passed around among immigrant communities. And one pair of sneakers from Payless just before school started in the fall. I thought that only millionaires shopped at the Gap and they all drove there in chauffeured limos – I’m not exaggerating, I literally thought that. When I finally was brave enough to go inside, around 7th grade, I was too terrified to even touch anything. Five people in a one bedroom apartment, and no TV because we couldn’t afford one. When I got my first paycheck ever, the first thing I did was I go to the Gap and buy a pair of jeans (not on sale!). It was liberating.

   Now, I’m in grad school on full scholarship. I have some debt from undergrad. My husband makes $60k and we live on that. In a large, expensive east coast city. We have a bit of credit card debt, and a bit of retirement savings.

   I feel rich. I don’t mean in the “I have a wonderful family and friends” way, which is certainly important but not what we are talking about here. I mean in the monetary way.

   I don’t worry about money. I can afford to buy all the clothes I (realistically) want! And all of our furniture came from the store (erm, Ikea), not the curb! Yesterday, I went to a happy hour and had three $6 beers. Today, I didn’t have class so I went to Starbucks to study, and didn’t think twice about spending $2 on an iced coffee and another $2 on a pastry. Later, I went to the grocery store and bought whatever I wanted – I didn’t have to deny myself anything because of cost (organic milk! fresh mozzarella!). I have a full wine rack – of $10 bottles. I’ve even had a professional massage once! We never worry about paying the bills or rent.

   Sure, it would be great if we had more money in the bank. Or went on vacations. Or had a housekeeper. But short of that, there isn’t much I’d “upgrade” if we had more money. I’m so happy and satisfied with what we have now – it’s more than everything I’ve ever wanted (both materially and on a personal level). And I know that if we lost all of our income we would get by, no problem. I’ve been at the bottom, and it sucks, a lot, but it isn’t the end of the world. I have “poor skills” – could forgo new clothes, live on rice and beans, and watch DVDs from the library, and go for walks on Saturday nights if I had to. I’d go work at Starbucks for $7 an hour. I started at the bottom, and never even imagined that I would be where I am today – so I feel rich.

   1. Great story – great sentiment.

   2. Ha! I remember those bags of clothes. I grew pretty fast as a kid so I was always given the men’s pants so I wouldn’t need more when I grew again!

   3. I love your story. I feel similarly thrilled when I get to have a pedicure — it’s so special that I’m able to do it at all. :)

2. Rich is relative — compared to people in Congo, most Americans are rich. But, I understand the angst of the discussion. As a married 50-something attorney with two kids in Catholic school living in Los Angeles, I don’t feel as rich as my colleagues in this city, most of whom have nicer cars, nicer homes, nicer clothes, nicer vacations and send their kids to more expensive schools than I do. But, remembering vividly the days in college when I didn’t have rent money, didn’t have enough savings in the event my car broke down, which it did often, and lost a lot of sleep worrying about money, I KNOW that I am rich. I can’t have everything I want, but I don’t need everything I want. I would like to have better vacations, though.

3. This reminds me of one of my engineer coworkers whose husband is also an engineer. She always says she feels poor b/c she sees the other people with the giant houses, fancy cars, etc. I try to tell her that she’s so blessed, she has so much more than most of the world. But it doesn’t sink in with her.

4. Dang, maybe I need to stop reading this blog :)
   I’m poor. I graduated a top 30 law school in 2009, and as a graduation gift I got my job offer rescinded. I used scholarships/work to pay for college (no debt), and scholarships/work to pay for law school (40K debt). Paying for the bar, daily needs and needed medication for 1.5 yrs have wiped out my savings. There is no job in sight. Trust me, I have applied, networked, begged, worked part-time to get my foot in the door etc.

   I’ve cut a ton of stuff out of my life and it sucks. I’ve always wanted to be a lawyer, and I still do. But it sooooo was not worth the life I have now. I’ve had part-time/temp jobs paying like $26-30K…you cannot get a good night’s sleep on that salary.

5. I make $52k a year, and I feel rich. I am a single female, no kids, and I live in a high rise water front apartment in downtown Seattle, across the street from my law firm. I sold my car because I never used it, saving me nearly $400 a month. I cut all unnecessary costs, and made sure I had the best deals on cable, internet, phone, etc. Through careful planning, I have decorated my apartment in a matching modern style, with mixtures of new, used, cheap and expensive items. For example, I have a $70 black art-deco coffee table made by a local artist in 1970 I got from craigslist, and a $300 Tiffany’s crystal decanter on my liquor bar. No one can tell what anything costs, they just notice if it is amazing. For me, bargain hunting mixed with splurges has really made me feel rich. I try to buy what I need only on sale, and I even hunt for the best sales. This allows me some breathing room to splurge every now and then and buy luxury items. I took advantage of a sale at the Gap to buy $35 black slacks for work, so now I have money leftover to buy the Burberry rainboots I have been eyeing. Buying eye catching expensive accessories can really make you look put together and successful. Whereas, no one could tell the difference between a pair of black pants that came from the Gap or Gucci!!! Save money where it is easy, and splurge for the eye catching pieces that last, and that you can use frequently.

   Never in my life growing up in a rural mountain town of less than 300 people did I ever think this would be my life. I relish in the fact that I support myself completely, and I do it well! My boyfriend is an IP attorney, making $150k, and quite frankly, I don’t want to ever get married because I am afraid I will lose credit for my lifestyle! I don’t even let him pay most of the time… I worked really hard to get hear, and damnit I don’t want to share my reward! Women have waited a LONG time to have this kind of power and independence, and I am loving every minute of it. Sure, I could always use more money, anyone could… but it’s like having dessert…the first bite is always the best. Once you feel independent and comfortable, everything else is just icing on the cake!

   1. Congratulations on your success. Your post made me proud of you, and I don’t even know you!

      1. i had the opposite reaction. i’m glad she feels financially secure and happy, but i have a hard time believing that this commenter’s lifestyle isn’t heavily subsidized by the $150K boyfriend. she doesn’t want to married because being single lets her project an “independent” image that might be a total fantasy. regular purchases of “luxury items,” tiffany and burberry on $50K a year? unless there’s no debt and no savings, this is hard to believe. those brands don’t cater to the $50K market for a reason…they’re not affordable at that income level, unless the person is subsized by help from mom & dad or a high-earning boyfriend.

         1. My lifestyle is not at ALL subsidized by my boyfriend. He does not pay for anything! I buy most of the groceries (since I love to cook), we almost always split the check if we go out, and we split vacations 50-50 (when we take them).

            You made an assumption when you read my post. You assumed when I said I purchased luxury items, that this was a “regular” purchase. That is not the case. I purchased my Tiffany’s decanter on a vacation to NYC. I bought burberry rainboots recently. This was my first shoe purchase in about 6 months. I rarely shop. I prefer to wait for nice things, rather than shop regularly for extras just because I can.

            I take major offense to your conclusion that I must be subsidized by mommy and daddy or my high-income boyfriend. No one subsidizes my anything! This may be a fashion/career blog, but that doesn’t mean that every reader/poster on here is a regular shopper. I have no credit card debt, and I save around $900 a month, exluding retirement, which is the best I can do most of the time!

            Also, I refuse to subscribe to the yuppie logic that Tiffany’s, or any other luxury brand for that matter, is precluded to only overly wealthy people. I love Tiffany’s, and so does my PhD friend who has a 26k a year stipend. She saved and bought herself a necklace on our NYC vacation. Are you going to argue that her lifestyle must be subsidized too just because she bought something expensive??

         2. I should probably add that my boyfriend and I don’t live together. I didn’t mention that because I figured people assumed it because I didn’t want him taking credit for my lifestyle – and by that, I meant my apartment and all my decor.

            So yeah, to add to my reponse, he REALLY doesn’t pay for anything!

6. Being comfortable to me is being able to finance the basic needs of living, have money in savings and perhaps have a pinch left over for fun. This does not mean having a nice house or bringing in top quality groceries etc, just covering the basics. That said, I think being rich is having money to finance the basic needs without question, having money saved and still have money left over to pay for some luxuries.

   I consider myself comfortable. I work three jobs starting my own business which has two different outlets, I work a few odd jobs and a retail job where I get my benefits. I work 6 days a week (and work from home on day 7), I live with my parents (am still early 20s so will probably be moving out in the next year or so). I have just started putting some money in a 401 k but have sacrificed in other areas, never eat out, didn’t get contacts this year and am wearing the same glasses I was wearing 5 1/2 years ago. I am very careful when I buy groceries and never go shopping (even when I need more clothes :( backstory: I recently lost weight and have 1 pair of black pants I fit in, 2 pairs of jeans then 3 pairs of capris (fortunately I have some shoes and accessories to dress things up a bit).

   Again I consider myself comfortable because I am able to afford the things I NEED to survive and am working to save. In the next few years this may change for the worse or better but I will consider myself happy when I can get a real weekend (2 days off a week) and can afford to go on a vacation every other year (even if it is nowhere impressive). I have come to learn I may never be able to afford nice things but if I can be by the people I love that is all that matters.

7. I am a junior associate in Canada at a small firm. I make $53,000 a year, no student loans left.

   I worked and saved for a couple of years before law school. I scratched together enough for a down payment on a tiny house before law school, then rented a room to help pay the bills during school. I paid off the last of my loans in my first year of working.

   I married 2 years ago and my husband’s income (unexpectedly) went way up 1.5 years ago — from $55,000 to $140,000.

   All that’s left is the $280,000 mortgage on our home. We’ll be debt-free in 2 years and will start saving for retirement. When baby comes, we’ll be back to scrimping and saving, but that’s part of the fun right?

8. Wow, I knew this was gonna be a good one. THIS is why I love Corporette – keep the fashion, let’s talk life :)!

   Regular commenter here, totally uncomfortable with sharing frank financial info/thoughts in public forum under my usual moniker. That said, here’s my ‘stream of consciousness’ response to Kat’s post:

   Am I rich? Most of the time I think so – mainly that I am ‘rich’ in my life, not materially, although I am presently incredibly materially fortunate. As Elin Woods recently noted, don’t lie about the fact that while money won’t make you happy, it sure makes what otherwise could be difficult a LOT EASIER. I am ‘rich’ because I have three beautiful kids, a loving husband and many wonderful family, friends and neighbors.

   By objective criteria, am I ‘rich’ – absolutely. DH makes 3x what I do and I make more than Elie says you need to live in NY comfortably. And we don’t live in an expensive urban area. Kids go to great public schools ( I prefer that to private, for reasons beyond this discussion, but if public was substandard, I’d bite the bullet on private if I could afford it and I can, now). We have ZERO debt, kids’ tuitions are prepaid and they have 529s . We have investments that, while battered in the last few years, still look pretty good, and we still have $$ to save every month. And we go on ‘couple’ trips, send kids on trips, take family trips. We also give generously to our community – sports, schools, church, local civic ,what have you.

   It has not always been thus. I had a pretty disadvantaged upbringing – parents were solvent/dad = big professional in big arena, but they fought so much thru divorce and mom was so dysfunctional that I emancipated when I was sixteen (already in college, paid own way with some long ago discharged debt). Graduated college with useless liberal arts degree and lukewarm gpa (2 years of high school with crazy parent is not a good college prep), worked for a couple years in various menial slightly above min wage jobs – dead broke, always behind, scraped by. Got into crummy local law school, managed to get out with minimal debt, high gpa, law review and all that (worked three jobs the whole time – waitress, weekend secretary, worked for professor), miraculously got fabulous midlaw job, progressed to Biglaw (notwithstanding mongrel academic background), got paid astronomically for several years and used the $$ to pay off loans, get set up with mortgage, had enough $$ to manage the early years of the kids and pay the prepaids. Did NOT have enough to manage the itinerant ex, who didn’t want to work or take care of kids and did want lots of discretionary $$ from my paycheck/’our’ assets, so eventually got divorced, paid off recalcitrant ex (in SPADES and he has yet to contribute one thin dime in child support or other necessaries, but boy, have they seen Disney World!). EXPENSIVE WAY to accommodate the bio clock….

   Did all that while the economy melted down. I HATE my present job and would love to spend LESS time doing ‘smaller’ things for lower pay…but 20+ years out, as the headhunter said, you are more likely to get killed by a terrorist than get a ‘service lawyer’ job. Me: I just want to go to work, do the work /get paid for the hours I spend/clients pay for it, and be done with it. Why is that not possible?

   I don’t feel that rich now. My kids spend A LOT of their time with babysitters (they always have, but now they are older and they need ME). DH and I could work out some things financially, but they are his stepkids (he already did the real kid thing and is just SUPER about coaching, stepdadding, but he is not expected to make sure they go to Stanford…y’know, they are not THAT entitled), so I need to keep pitching up…

   There, I feel honest (anonymously) about what does ‘rich’ mean. It is, after all, such a multi-layered question: “are you rich?” Who really is, or can answer, that question meaningfully in one page? One sentence? One life?

9. I’ve enjoyed reading all the comments.

   I grew up upper middle class. My parents separated when I was 8 years old, but my two sisters and I stayed close to my father, who paid for our education and taught us to have an incredible drive to launch careers for ourselves. My mother had an ambivalent attitude about what we did. My father loved us and encouraged us to have fun, but consistently drove home the message to get good grades, get into good schools and MAKE MONEY. My little sister has extreme learning disabilities, and Dad taught her the same. He encouraged me to go to lawschool, rather than become a psychologist, the other career path I was considering, because he thought I would make more money. My father had an accident and became incapacitated in 2000 during the fall of my junior year of college, and died a month before I graduated in 2002. I got accepted into a high ranking lawschool while he was in his coma and graduated in 2005. I’ve done a federal clerkship and worked for almost three years as a trial lawyer for the federal government. My other sisters graduated college and pursued grad degrees, even my disable little one.

   Meanwhile, my mother made my stepfather, a con artist and financial deadbeat, the center of her universe in the early nineties. She put him on a pedastal and let him squander the money she got from my father in her divorce, and continues to sink her money in her husband’s failing business to this day. In return, he stood by while she got addicted to presciption drugs. She now lives on a recent settlement from my father’s estate, but my sisters and I know someday it will run out and she and our stepfather will be dependent on us.

   My father left my sisters and I money. I have over $1 million in securities and more in real estate (even now after the down turn). But because of what my father taught me, I don’t even think about that. I live on what I make in my federal job, and plan to go to private practice after my commitment is over to make more money. I don’t feel rich. I see it as my obligation to earn money educate my (future) children and leave them more than I had, and teach them everything I learned from my father. He had three girls (one with special needs), and he educated them, made them financially independent, and taught them to be driven, confident women.

   What I learned from my mother’s experience is that one should not marry someone they don’t love, but to marry only for love is NOT ENOUGH. One should also look at the person they are considering for a partner objectively and ask whether a marriage to that person would be healthy for them.

10. I definitely feel rich now. The reason I feel rich now, for the first time in my life, is that even when I do not watch my spending at all – i.e. buy whatever I want, live in a shamelessly extravagant home, eat at restaurants whenever I want, never even think about money – I still make more than I spend. I’ve never had that before. In all my previous occupations, I was able to live within my means, but I had to rein myself in somehow – not too many restaurant meals, not too much new clothing, look at the price tag, think about the bank account, can I afford that? I don’t have to do that now.

    The other reason I feel rich is that I am occasionally able to send an extravagant check to my parents – or to other family – without feeling too much strain. It feels like a luxury to be able to do so. In fact, that’s the thing I value the most about being “rich”.

11. I am definitely not rich, but almost no one in the US would think I was. But, I just graduated, have a ton of debt, and this economy is not doing me any favors.

    My financial goals right now: I’d love to be able to buy whatever I wanted at the grocery store without having to worry about price. Right now, I’m considering giving up diet coke to cut the budget! Imagine being able to eat out for lunch!

    People my age seem rich to me if they can buy a house or buy a car. Of course, if you’re 40, that probably isn’t rich anymore.

    1. Personally, I don’t feel rich. I make just over the average median salary of all workers in the United States and there are definitely things that I “do without”. That said, I don’t feel poor, either. I have enough money to pay my bills, cover the necessary life expenses, save each month, donate to charity and even a little extra spending money when everything is said and done…

       To read more, visit
       http://kitchencouture.tumblr.com/post/1211597776/are-you-rich

12. Kat, thank you as always for bringing up yet another super salient topic. I was stewing just this morning over an awful NYTimes oped that slammed some guy for blogging about his ‘rich guy’ worries. The suggestions were so clearly out of sync with reality and so assuming/condescending- they suggested he cook his food, cut the cable/lattes etc.- things that people with high-paying jobs rarely have time to do or may not do. I barely know what time zone I’m in- have been to 5 countries in 10 days for work with very little sleep- if I can get my bills paid this month I’ll be thrilled but stuff like cooking is out of the question. It’s 10:30 pm, I just got home, and flew 14 hours yesterday. The article really irked me for the lack of reflection of reality of upper middle class workers. Expenses simply do come with the jobs: $50 dry cleaning, $500 bar dues, etc. this is not about getting fancy coffees, there are real, added up, necessitated expenses that go along with the salaries.

    I believe that the rich/poor dichotomy is not so useful for the majority of us in the grays. I am not poor and I know it. I have been to many developing countries and US locations and known people in terrible situations: I am truly, utterly grateful for all I have. And I didn’t always have it.

    I am also not rich- these things are not mutually exclusive, and it’s okay to recognize that. The poor don’t need to call people with something more rich. My husband and I do quite well now after years of being broke. But we have the debts to show for it. Student debt, a mortgage for a reasonable place to live in a mid-sized city, 2 used cars of necessity- low range brands. This debt equals more than 4x our incomes. I would not feel rich until I am out of debts. That doesn’t mean that I feel poor and in need, either- I do not. I am happy with my situation and appreciative of where I’ve gotten. However, if one of us lost a job, it would be a serious situation, and not because we are reckless spenders. We don’t have cable, I buy almost everything second-hand, I use coupons. We have only taken vacations the past few years that involve a free place to stay. I am far behind on retirement savings because I spent my 20s in law school, starting out and broke. Point being: these are shades of grey. If the government wants to up the taxes on those of us in the middle with debts who invested in ourselves to get ahead, I will be spending less to look out for my own savings (yes, I realize I am lucky to be able to do this; I want to retire someday so I value this). I would resent being asked to pay more plus my education debts that got me the salary that I have fairly early in my career. I finally just got going after years of giving up any salary or a decent salary- it wouldn’t seem fair to have enormous debt service for my investment plus be expected to carry more load for those with less (some who are working hard, others maybe haven’t put in the years of hard work that I have).

    Some people who make a good salary do not have a bunch of money to give away; they have a bunch of obligations to cover. Who is it people think are paying for the housing/goods in this economy? It is the workhorses, who make some money and take on debts. Surely some people have far more, but this is not the bulk of us working professionals. One person’s opinion.

    1. Hear, hear! I agree.

    2. This is a fantastic comment. It should be an op-ed, not buried at the end of a thread like this!

13. I grew up poor. It wasn’t unusual for me to fish cans out of the trash for recycling when the food stamps. I wore flip-flops to school because there was no money for shoes to keep up with my growth spurts. My childhood home was a Section 8 apartment with infestation and plumbing that didn’t work half the time.

    I went to law school specifically to make money. I remember the moment when I was a kid and I heard some statistic that 10% of lawyers were millionaires and that decided for me. Since I only do contract work though, I’ll never be in that 10%.

    I live in the poor, immigrant neighborhood I grew up in, I buy my clothes at Target and Ross, I don’t have a car, and I will probably never own a home or have children (Sallie Mae owns my soul), but that’s totally okay with me because I don’t struggle. My apartment is clean and cozy, I have a tidy sum in savings, I eat what I want when I want, my health is good, my hair is shiny, and no one pounds on the door when the Section 8 check is late.

    I guess because I grew up humbly I have far fewer needs than people I know. I think I’m doing great! I’m pretty sure most of my law school colleagues (and people on this site) would think otherwise.

    These blog articles making the rounds on the internet about being poor with $120k are just absurd to me, since I’ve lived my entire life in one of the “expensive” cities listed.

14. another note… this really is a geography thing too if people are talking numbers. My salary might make me “rich” in Ohio or such, but not in the large coastal cities I’ve been living in (and, note, where the jobs are). People that aren’t in pricey cities- it might be hard to imagine how pricey life in these places is- but your money gets taken day after day at all corners.

15. I come from a whole ‘nother perspective. I was always afraid I would end up a bag lady, living on the sidewalk, pushing my cart. And my fear did come true for my kid sister: she is homeless in L.A. Lives the dream on the sidewalks of Hollywood.

    My world was different from yours. When I was five, we moved to S.F. My Dad came out and left to explore his new life as a gay man. I saw him only two times thereafter, and I don’t know or sure, but believe he is dead.

    My mother was alcoholic — pass out on the kitchen floor alcoholic. She had bipolar disorder and a paranoid borderline personality disorder. She was constantly attempting suicide, mostly dramatic gestures that enabled her to be hospitalized. She remarried when I was six –a man she met in a bar, and shortly thereafter he began sexually molesting me. I left home for UCLA at 16, and never went back.

    When I was growing up, we moved constantly, and I never went to a school for more than six months. We didn’t pay bills, and my step-father kept getting fired. I knew nothing about savings, or being frugal, or paying bills, or retirement, or anything. I just knew we moved seconds before eviction. Once, my mother and I went to the grocery store and when we came out, our car had been taken by the finance company.

    So, no. No parents paid for my college. No one paid for my J.D. or PhD. I got scholarships, worked constant part-time jobs, hustled for loans. I ran like a dog was after me. . . I was so afraid of the chaos right behind.

    I was incredibly lucky to be born bright, and to be able to concentrate under any circumstance. I don’t understand the gift of intelligence or test-taking, but I’m so grateful I received that genetic blessing.

    To make this long story shorter: I am an attorney. I make around $170K per year. I have no loans. I have a mortgage and a child and a husband. Because of my background, I never learned about regular savings or retirement plans.
    But I figured it out, because the dogs were chasing. I’m now on target to retire early, way early. Not rich. But a home, a child, a DH. Enough.

    Based on what most posters have written, I say most of you have lived extremely blessed lives without knowing it.

    1. I’ve never posted anything on here, but your comment really hit home. I came from a semi-‘normal’ family–my parents were divorced when I was really young. My mom worked and took care of us, and my dad was a doctor. I always say that he was worthless other than his brains he gave me and the money he would send us on occasion. After a series of life-changing events, my mom became an alcoholic…the same type you described. Then, my brother and I became foster kids after she had a wreck with us in the car.

       Just like you, we moved constantly; I attended 15 schools growing up. And just like you, I ran from the dogs chasing me. I don’t want to end up like either of my parents. I knew I wanted to help people somehow, but avoided med school like the plague. My dad is one of the smartest people I have ever met in my entire life, but let his kids grow up in one of the worst type of ‘systems’.

       I ended up in law when I realized I could use my knack for chemistry in patent law. I also found a way to help other foster kids with my law degree, so it has been a win win. As long as I can do law, science, and travel; I’ll be set.

       Being rich to me means that I will have an en-rich-ing and meaningful life. Your story inspired me to share mine.

16. Many people are commenting how another person is rich based upon the facts that are presented. By it is important that there are many shades of gray here in the United States. There is a wide chasm between Bill Gates and someone making $100k and still hasn’t paid off their student loans.

17. My sister supports a family of five on $55,000 a year. She has house and car payments to deal with, too. She’s a teacher and head of her department, but her kids just recently stopped qualifying for free health care, reduced lunches, etc. Vegetables are too expensive so she grows her own, from seeds. You guys are ALL rich.

    There are expenses that come with being well off (eating out, dry cleaning, childcare) but there are cheaper options to what people are describing as required. Public schools instead of private, parents who help with homework (or no help at all) instead of hiring tutors, a messy house instead of a house keeper, a weedy yard (or no maintenance yard) rather than a gardener, no soccer/gymnastics/art/music classes for kids outside of school, a school sponsored public day care instead of a nanny, a bottle of wine and TV on a Friday instead of a date night out. All the things people are fussing about paying for (the entire thread) are luxuries, not requirements.

    The only requirements I can see from here are the appropriate clothing to wear to work, and the ungodly expense of dry cleaning said outfits. And 1,200 to 2,000 calories a day, and a place to sleep.

    We are ALL lucky to be in places where we can make gradated choices about how we spend our money.

    1. I agree that most people, rich or not, could probably cut some of their expenses. But the fact remains that the kind of job that allows you to make six figures also requires a HUGE time investment. When you’re working 8 am to 9 pm — a short day at my firm — you simply don’t have the time to take care of the little things. Telling someone that she should just allow her house to be filthy all the time is ridiculous; your family shouldn’t have to live in filth because mommy has to work. The last time I checked, after care at public school ends at 5:30, hours before anyone in my firm leaves the office. And I didn’t realize that you could help your kids with their homework when you get home at 9:30 pm; I was under the impression that kids should be in bed by then.

    2. What state does she live in?

18. Rich people rarely think they’re rich.

19. There are a lot of heart-wrenching stories on here that demonstrate what a motivated, hard-working bunch of ladies are on this site! Nonetheless, I don’t think we need to judge people as spendthrifts for not growing their own vegetables from seeds, or going out to see a movie on a Friday night, or not being homeless. Simply having a roof over our heads and food on our plates is not “rich,” although I feel for the folks here who have gone without these. Don’t think that I don’t appreciate having these things–I do!–but I think that rich is the ability to have luxuries above and beyond basic needs (even if basic needs feel like luxuries to those with far less).

    For me, rich is when money piles up in my bank account even though I go out to eat and travel and buy those cute shoes. And that’s going to be much more than my current salary of $21K.

    1. One of the best things about the U.S. is a person’s freedom to strive economically for whatever level of income they desire – whether it be the freedom to live outside of Section 8 housing, or the ability to buy a luxury-brand handbag once a month. We all have different priorities in this department and the people in government do not have the right to tell us which priorities are good and which aren’t. If someone wants to attend grad school for 3-5 years, rack up six figures in student loans, and then work 14 hour days for 10 years … and then use that money and success to live well, there’s nothing wrong with that. They don’t owe anything to someone who chooses to work in a lower-paying but more satisfying job, and cut corners by growing their own vegetables to be able to afford it.

       I’m embarrassed for my generation to see all of the “wealth shaming” that goes on. I’m far from rich myself (around the $60K/year mark in a low cost of living metropolis) but I’m not here because someone else makes $300K a year and spends it on a housekeeper and thinks they’re poor. I’m here because I’ve made the choices re: jobs, income, location that I’ve made … and because I started a little higher than some and a little lower than others socio-economically. Bringing someone down and taking more of their money will not help me.

       I will support government tax hikes when the government starts publishing an annual expenditure statement showing (a) where our tax dollars are being spent, and (b) making cuts – as we are being asking to do – in order to make ends meet first. Penalizing people who have worked hard for their success – whether that success is making $50K/year or $500k/year – helps no one.

20. I think a lot of us here have lost perspective.

    There are always going to be people who are “richer/wealthier” than us. Stop comparing and be happy with what you have.

    I totally get making $300,000 a year and being broke. But having the choice to put your children in private schools, paying off loans, saving for retirement and your childrens college funds is just that – it’s a choice. Choice is itself, a luxury and it means you are probably rich. You might be broke, but you always have the choice to stop spending your money that way to have more disposible income.

    People who are poor don’t have that choice. They spend their money on food and bills, and often times don’t pay bills to buy food. They don’t have big incomes waiting for them when the kids are out of private schools and daycare. They don’t have pensions/retirements funds/assets for when they retire. And they certainly don’t have six figure incomes.

    I understand where you guys are coming from. It never seems like it’s enough money. No matter how much I make, I find something else that I feel like I “should” be spending on – be it my 401K, HSA, Roth IRA, cash savings, creating ways to have passive income, saving for my future child’s tuition, investment accounts, saving for vacations/life experiences so I can actually live a little.

    I don’t feel “rich” either, with the rising costs of everything in the US, the horrible state of the economy and the grim reality of healthcare. My company just announced a plan to start matching our HSA accounts – encouraging us to start saving now for healthcare in retirement. Just one more bucket for me to try to build up better…Sigh.

    I think growing up middle class/upper middle class/rich, whatever contributes to us losing perspective. I grew up middle/upper middle – I honestly have no idea how to catagorize it. I lived in a wealthy suburb of Chicago. We had everything we needed as children, every lesson we wanted, books, computers, 30 presents waiting for me under the Christmas tree every year. A mom who stayed home, and a father with a great career.

    But there were always wealthier suburbs…always bigger houses. There were always parents who took their children to Europe for vacation instead of Disney World. Even if you grew up in Kennilworth (deemed the most wealthiest suburb) you will still be able to find someone with a bigger house than yours. There will still be the side of town with the “smaller homes” verses the big ones on the Lake. And even if you do live in Kennilwoth, than you just get divided by “old money” verses “new money” and the people who lived there all their lives are considered wealthy and the people who move their are the “poor outsiders.”

    It’s so easy to lose perspective when you grow up this way, or live this way now – all you have to compare your lifestyle to are others who are well off. I gained most of mine living and working in a blue collar town in another state after college. I was shocked to find most of the homes were 2 bedroom caftsman style houses. That there were people who bought all their clothes at Wal-mart. How awful does that sound? God, I can’t believe I was so spoiled!

    It started to sink in when I started to struggle making ends meet when I had just finished my undergrad. Despite having parents who were “financially comfortable” they didn’t help me financially. They bought me a suit from J Crew and shoes to interview in and sent me on my way.

    I was pretty poor. I had trouble paying my bills and affording healthcare. I could barely afford groceries and gas for my car and presription drugs/doctors visits were out of the question. I had to adjust. I had to figure out how to get by. It was hard and it sucked and it took me a long time to get a decent paying job.

    But just because you feel poor and broke doesn’t mean you are…yes, we have a lot of things we have the luxury of saving for (retirement/healthcare/children’s education). Some of us have a ton of loan debt. Most of us are overworked and rely on take out food and nannies and other services just to get through the day.

    Seriously, it could be so much worse. How many homeless people do you walk by every day? Can you really look at them and then think that you aren’t rich until you have 5 million in liquid assets?

21. Everyone commenting that all of us with good incomes and jobs are lucky are of course right- we have our needs met and much more. Absolutedly.

    Upon a bit of reflection I think my definition of rich is that you have the choice not to work. I.e. you have so much wealth that you could just not get up and trudge into a job every day. That seems like the freeing moment. Not that I mind working, albeit it’s tiring, and surely there are really rich people who choose to continue working, but woudn’t that seem like a clear indication? I have a few friends from law school who have never worked and their worldview sure is different than mine- the things they will do and won’t do, etc.

    1. That’s really interesting. I think I only knew one person in school who didn’t have to work (work as in get a career someday). She was the daughter of a well known celebrity. That certainly is a dividing line. Reminds me of the people I would see on Gilmore Girls, fliting around living off trust funds. While I know lots of people with trust funds, I have never personally known anyone who lived this type of lifestyle, unless you count family members I have who retire early.

       You just gave me a lot to think about!

22. I think many of us in the United States have forgotten the concept of “enough.” All I’ve ever wanted is enough money to comfortably pay the bills, with a little left over. I’m an in-house lawyer; my husband works for a not-for-profit. We have our retirement money pretty much under control (we’re both mid-50s), and our house will be paid for in 2 years. We like to travel and have no kids, so our discretionary income goes into travel. Neither of us grew up with money, although we were not poor and always had a decent house and plenty of food to eat. We don’t live in the most expensive neighborhood in town, or in the most expensive house in our neighborhood. We have enough. Too many people are worried about how rich they are incomparison to others. I say, if you have enough, be content and stop worrying about what others have or don’t have.

    1. Yes! In addition to not knowing “enough”, some people consume from boredom – think gals going to the mall to shop for fun and not because they need something. Constantly seeing ever changing merchandize can make anyone poor, money and soul. Lacking a meaningful way to entertain self – interest in economy, politics, history, science, art – leaves little but spending to kill the saturday afternoon.

23. It really bothers me when people claim that you can only live in NYC on a very high salary. In fact, most people in NYC live on very modest income. I believe that anyone who makes well above the median income for their locale should feel lucky. At least according to this website, the estimated median household income in NYC in 2008 was $51,116 http://www.city-data.com/city/New-York-New-York.html. In my opinion if your household income is well above that, I think you should appreciate the advantages you have.

24. To some extent a feeling of “rich” can come from owning your free-standing house outright if it is a house you like and is in very good condition so there are not a lot of constant repair bills. To be able to do this often entails going for a smaller house than many people long for today, or sometimes an unconventional house. This does not make you rich, it just makes you feel rich.

25. I will probably get a lot of flak for posting this but I actually think I am rich. And not just rich in the sense that I have a good job or that I have more than people in third world countries, but actually RICH. I grew up in a family of professionals, my mother is a small business owner and my father a doctor. Both were easily able to afford to put me and my two siblings through university and now here I am in a major city at a job that I think pays me too much for what I do. I am 28, work from 9-6pm, I own my own condo (although mortgaged), I own a car (fully paid off), I can afford to buy most things I want (the odd fancy handbag, wardrobe updates, gym membership) and everything that I need (groceries, assorted bills). I am single and have no children so the only person I have to support is myself.

    How much do you think my salary is per year? Do you think I’m rich?

    1. That’s a really interesting question. I think it says a lot about the difference between wealth and the ability to live within one’s means. Someone on $300,000 a year can be living on the knife edge, whereas someone on $60,000 can be very well off.

       Someone earlier (Chicago K?) mentioned how the word “rich” has a sliding scale, because there will always be someone with more money. I agree with that, but I do think that a line can be drawn, (and this is not to critique her very thoughtful post) and once a person gets up into $100,000/ yr for a single person, to my mind, they are rich. Whether or not such a person lives within their means and feels “rich” is another question entirely.

       I am curious, though, how much you make!

       1. Interesting! I am in the same boat. Though it makes me wince to admit it while so many are struggling, there’s no way around it – I am rich in most every sense of the word. I graduated from college with no debt, a paid off car, plus around $200K left in my college fund. I got a great job earning $45K a year, I bought a cute little condo in Uptown Dallas, and I have always had plenty of time and money to spend eating out, shopping, traveling, and taking care of my puppy.

          Part of me feeling “rich” is that my fixed costs have all stayed constant as my income has doubled over the last five years (to around $90K this year – I’m 27 and single). I haven’t bought a new car or traded up to a bigger home – though I have started spending a bit more on shopping each year (by buying better brands not more stuff).

          Plus I’m also not burdoned with a super-stressful job or even a husband or kids (though I’d like those things one day), so my money is truly mine to spend – as is my time. I think that makes a big difference in “feeling” wealthy.

26. rich people don’t have to work. anyone with earned income, whether it be $25,000 or $250,000, do not live the lifestyle of the rich. the rich can afford a life of leisure (e.g., not working unless they feel like it). people earning $250,000 usually work so many hours that things like cooking, cleaning, and home maintenance are not realistic ways to save money (since time is money). i’m not saying that life isn’t easier at $250,000 than $25,000, but we’re not talking about taxing people based upon how easy their life is. if we were, we would tax the rich.

    1. And I’m sure Bill Gates would explain to you that he has to work too. As the lifestyle expands, the money needed to keep you in that lifestyle will always expand with it. For many of us, if we had started saving this money instead of spending it years ago, we would have enough to live on (very simply) for the rest of our lives. We just choose not to.

       I am rich. I earn just under $175k between salary and bonuses in New York City. My husband brings in $60k. We own a two-bedroom co-op in Brooklyn – not Brookyn Heights, not Cobble Hill, not Park Slope. South of Prospect Park. We give more than 10% of our income away to charity. We have no children yet, but we’re putting enough noney away every month now that we could pay for daycare without changing our lifestyles very much. We travel frequently. We have no debt other than our mortgage because my husband went to an excellent state school which his parents paid for, and the portion of my undergraduate I took loans for I paid off before I got married by buckling down and living in a cheap rental for several years longer than I could have. I found an employer to pay for grad school.

       We don’t have a housekeeper – sometimes our kitchen floor doesn’t get mopped for a week. We haven’t renovated our second bathroom – it’s still ugly 1950s tile. We plan to send our kids to NYC public schools, just like I went to. We cook at home. If I’m going to have a busy week, I cook extra food on Sundays and freeze it for the week. We bring our lunches to work most of the time. Our rugs are from Ikea. But we’re comfortable, we buy what we want, and just have relatively simple tastes. I wear nice clothes, but I resole my shoes when I wear them out. I recaulk the bathtbs myself when they need it.

       Yes, there are plenty of people who make more than me. That doesn’t make me not rich. I am rich because I make more than easily 95% of the people in this country, and more than at least 80% of the people who live in my city. If that doesn’t make me rich, then no one but Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are rich, and I don’t think that’s true.

27. Finances are a fickle thing. Currently I live in a comfortable rowhome with my fiance and our dog, am putting myself through graduate school out of pocket and paying off my car on 44k a year as a public school teacher. Whether I view myself as rich or not can depend on the day. Sometimes I make a tuition payment, and when I open my bank statement later it makes want to cry. I work so much between teaching, coaching, class sponsorship, and a 2nd job to make ends meet, but get down because I have little to show for it financially, although I know in the long term it will pay off. I occasionally get frustrated with life when I see friends who live at home with parents, and are banking almost 100% of their pay check, or others who have family or an employer that help them pay for grad school (my employer stopped helping with tuition bc of budget problems, but the state requires master credits for license renewal. Frustrating).

    But on the flip side, in the evenings I come home to my fiance, not my parents, and the life we’re building together. And when I earn that degree in a year, I will be indebted to no one. That will be a feeling of being rich. To owe nothing to anyone. To have 2 degrees by 24 with no debt, and to be able to then invest from that point forward. I feel that being rich mean that all of your expenditures are at your discretion, but because you owe someone or something money.

    But perhaps the difference is not whether a person is rich, but if they are wealthy. Like I previously said, ‘richness’ can be something that is fleeting, evolving, uncertain–not always guaranteed. Highly subjective. But to be wealthy to me is the certainty that your money and investments are so deep rooted and immense they will always be enough–regardless of the economy, large purchases, and life-style choices rooted in luxury.

    It’s far from scientific in explanation or presentation, but it’s like that Chris Rock standup line: ‘Shaq is rich. The guy who signs his paychecks is wealthy.’

28. great topic.

    I am early 30s and make slightly more per year (pre-tax) than I owe in student loans (if I could pay them off today that is, so pre-interest). I have a small amount of 0% debt on a credit card. However, I have some savings, and started to pay into a pension very late in the game. I rent rather than own my apartment. I don’t own a car. My other half makes very little as chef. we have no kids (yet). But overall, I am at the early end of my career (having started late) so my salary is set to increase.

    I think it’s fair to say that in absolute terms I am privileged since I am in the top 10% of earnings. But not rich or wealthy. I would certainly never describe myself as poor. I also think ‘class’ is a separate (though overlapping & intertwined) issue.

    I think a lot of the kerfuffle on this issue can be dealt with by the terminology many of us probably use in respect of businesses: asset-rich/cash-poor.

    Someone who has considerable savings locked away a for comfortable retirement and a plan and budget for travel before and during retirement, or can retire comfortable early (!) and a nearly debt-free house is (assuming no significant additional debt) asset-‘rich’ or at least asset-comfortable. They could still be cash-poor though for some or all of their working lives.

    They consider the monthly investment in their pension/paying off the mortgage etc to be ‘expenses’ in the same way that groceries are expenses. They also consider high discretionary expenses like private education for the kids to be expenses, even though this too is a sort of investment.

    This perception naturally wrankles for those who are not able to build a nest egg and who actually struggle with groceries or would if the cost of food skyrocketed. If that happened at a serious scale, the ‘cash-poor’ could lower their discretionary payments into travel fund, while the poor-poor have to find the extra somewhere else or go without. That the cash-poor don’t get that they are asset-rich and therefore not poor-poor is really frustrating.

    I don’t endorse whining about being cash-poor: the cash isn’t there because of a series of choices that it should be invested into the future. I also think that it’s totally disrespectful to those who are asset-poor AND cash-poor in the developed world (which nearly always = privileged in global context!) and indicates a lack of connection to the rest of humanity.

    Just want to add: I love reading the inspiring stories here of women who have taken themselves out of childhood poverty.

29. On the question “is it different for men?” I’m a woman, mind you, but in my experience men are (broad brushstroke here) much more motivated by money than women. Clearly, a lot of the women on this site desire financial success and (from the comments I’ve read) many of them are primary breadwinners in their households. That said, that’s a fairly new position for us. I don’t believe it’s ever been society’s *expectation* for us, whereas for men it has been. As a result, money-making is much more a part of male identity.

30. I’ve been thinking a lot about this question in the past few days. My decision to go to law school was driven in large part by the desire to be “rich”– not rich in the sense of being a billionaire, but rich in the way I thought of it as a child. I didn’t have any contact with the truly wealthy as a kid, so as far as I knew my dentist was the richest man in town, and any family making more than 100K a year had to be fantastically rich. Rich meant going out to dinner whenever you wanted, exotic vacations, and a home with walk-in closets, and I wanted that very badly.

    When I was a summer associate at a big law firm in NYC, one of my fellow summers started grumbling about taxes and asserted that 160K was “nothing” in NYC. I (rather crassly) blurted that of COURSE I was rich; I was 24 years old and making four times what my father made. Now, I wasn’t living the lifestyle I’d imagined– my bedroom in the apartment I shared with my roommates wasn’t much bigger than the walk-in closet I’d once coveted. I already owed 100K in student loan debt, and expected to graduate with more. But I was dressing and eating better than any of the “rich” people I’d known as a kid, and it blew my mind.

    Now I work at a nonprofit making 42K and count myself fortunate, though not rich. Instead of rich lawyers, I compare myself with my clients, and my 401k, health benefits, and reliable used car look pretty darn good. Thanks to my school’s LRAP program, I’m handling my debt well and socking away some money for retirement. To me, as I think another poster said, comfortable means having the luxury of making choices. I wrestle with how to allocate my money every month– how much to savings? To charity? To fun things like eating out?– but I have the financial flexibility to decide. And that is very comforting indeed.

31. Rich = not having “how will I pay for basic food / clothing / shelter / medical needs / transportation” be the top worry on my list, or even in the top 25…

32. I go back and forth on this one. I am of counsel in a law firm in San Francisco, and get paid $130 per hour plus benefits. My husband is also an attorney, and just got laid off from his in-house job with a bank. I’m in my early 40s, and grew up middle to upper-middle class. (Public school in a good school district; no trips to Europe, but visits to grandparents and cross-country road trips where we stayed in Motel 6 and Best Western motels; my mom made most of my clothes until I was old enough to earn money to buy my own store-bought clothes.)

    Things that make me feel rich:
    * Having ~$350K in retirement savings and down payment savings/emergency fund in the bank.
    * Really good food and wine. It’s ridiculous how much we pay for some things — organic milk in glass bottles, Odwalla OJ, etc. — but this is definitely one area where I feel I get a lot of satisfaction for the amount I spend.
    * Our lovely, large apartment and garage in a great location.
    * Having paid off my law school loan debt (middle five figues) about four or five years out.
    * Having a once-a-month housekeeper.
    * Not having a car payment (on my Corolla!).
    That last one is actually more like a “feeling that I’m managing things well” rather than feeling “rich,” I think. Same with paying off the law school debt.

    Things that make me feel like I’m not rich:
    * We don’t own a home (and may never own one if we stay in SF or move to Manhattan).
    * Knowing that if my hours at work drop, or if my husband doesn’t find another job before his limited severance pay ends, we will have to move to a cheaper apartment. (If both happen, we’ll probably leave the Bay Area.)
    * My new student loan debt in the lowish five figures for the LL.M. I’m pursuing in order to change practice areas.
    * It’s still very painful to write a $4000 rent check each month.

    We are incredibly fortunate and privileged in that our income puts us in the top 2% of households in the U.S. (or did before my husband’s layoff). I do think, though, that it’s hard to feel truly financially secure while subject to the whims of the market or individual bosses/employers. I agree with some posters above who define being “wealthy” as having enough assets/net worth to choose not to work for pay. That seems like it must be a rather small set of people. (The book “Your Money or Your Life” has a very interesting take on this concept, which the authors call financial independence.) Most of us have to make choices and decide what our spending priorities are.

    I did not go to law school based on the fact that I thought I could earn a good salary that way. I originally planned to go into academia, but found I didn’t really like teaching! I really liked clerking (for a district court), so went into litigation. A few years ago, I reached the point where the amount of money I earn is not enough to overcome the fact that I sometimes loathe my job. Hence the plan to switch practice areas. I will probably have to take a substantial pay cut to switch fields and/or launch my own practice, but we only get one go-around in this life. I also think I will be able to return to living frugally (it’s how I saved what I have so far) without too much difficulty if and when it becomes necessary. Or maybe I’m kidding myself!

    Thank you to everyone who shared their stories and otherwise commented on this thread. It’s been fascinating.

33. I get really annoyed with how the majority of the country defines “rich.” My fiance and I are in our late 20s and fortunate enough to both have six figure salaries in a down economy, but we also have a combined law school debt of around $260K and huge payments every month. We can afford a nice home because we live in a city with a low cost of living, and both drive 10 year old cars.

    We have sacrificed and worked hard in our twenties when a lot of our peers were out having fun, and we will continue to sacrifice over the next 10 years to pay that money back. And on top of that, we will get to pay higher taxes because we are “rich.” I realize that I am very blessed. We have a nice home, can afford to travel (even though we can’t get time off to go anywhere!), and yes, I do buy expensive shoes and handbags on occassion. But no one has handed me any of this. I have WORKED and paid for all of it, and will continue to do so for a long time until I am finally debt free.

    If there’s anything I take away from the comments here, it is that no matter where you start out in life, if you choose to invest in your education and work yourself to the bone, you can do well in life. I know that there are some people in this country that do work just as hard as I do, but lack the ability to pursue a profession where they will make as much money. But I believe that the majority of people do the minimum needed to get by and punch the clock every day at 5 p.m. They expect the government and “rich” people’s taxes to provide the good life for them. They sure as hell aren’t working 12 hour days like I am.

34. there are two questions at hand here, for me. “Feeling rich” comes with, first and foremost, not having to worry about money – so it comes both with income and managing expenses. My income already affords me that. I can eat out for lunch every day and buy a shirt I like when I see it because I’ve chosen a cheap apartment and no car.

    I’m pursue a higher income for a different reason – not to buy a luxury vehicle or a closet full of shoes, but because I ultimately want to contribute something very big to society, and do so through my own means (rather than through the stalled pace of a non-profit of the unweildy web of government.) So I get up in the morning and pursue that second, bigger income level, not for things like shoes and cars and homes but things much bigger.

35. I suspect I’m one of the rare Corporette readers who doesn’t work in law, banking, or “big” anything. I’m a mid-level executive at a non-profit in DC and consider this blog more inspirational than anything else, since what is “affordable” to your average reader is out of reach, typically, for me. I try to dress as professionally as possible and carry myself like a Someone anyhow.

    All that to say, rich is relative. The hubby and I, combined, make a “whopping” $163K combined gross income but we feel like we are doing well enough for ourselves. It’s a mindset. We don’t live paycheck to paycheck and that makes me very content. I can afford the occasional splurge and indulge in things just often enough that I don’t feel deprived. Some would say that we’re rich. Others would wonder how we survive at all on this income. It all just depends on what you think you need.

36. Spot on with this write-up, I absolutely believe this website needs a great deal more attention.
    I’ll probably be returning to read through more, thanks for the information!

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