Can You Give Unsolicited Fashion Advice to Interns?
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Ever had the urge to indulge your inner Anna Wintour and act as the fashion police? Reader M has a question along these lines…
Can we do a story on the extent to which permanent hires (i.e. me) can give unsolicited fashion advice to interns? I have worked in private practice for a number of years and am now at a government agency. Many of our female interns are taking the casual dress code here to the next level – “jeans Friday” does not mean your favorite yard work jeans, a sleeveless plaid tank, and Old Navy flipflops (I'm wearing dark wash trouser jeans, a Calvin Klein polo with bloused sleeves, and Cole Haan suede/patent skimmers). Many of our interns, let's face it, would rather be in private practice but are spending their summer with us due to the economy. It's more painful because the male interns are appropriately dressed (although I know it's easier to pick out golf attire than a female jeans Friday outfit). Can I / should I say anything in the way of career advice?
How do you tell someone their outfit isn't working — or worse, that their entire style needs to be rethought? It's a difficult question — and i think we've all been on both sides of the issue. This blog partly grew from my frustration over this — both a) realizing belatedly that I'd been wearing completely inappropriate things, and b) not feeling able to say anything when I saw other women making fashion gaffes and wearing the “are you kidding me?” kind of outfits I saw at various points in my career. With summer, the flood of interns from colleges, law schools, and grad schools makes the problem only more magnified. When should you tell someone that their outfit is totally inappropriate?
In this blog's early days we tried to run a poll on it, and of the whopping 35 people who voted (hey, we were barely a month old!), 51% said they would only tell her if you were good friends, 37% said you'd tell her if it was something she wouldn't realize, and 3% said you'd tell her only if she'd embarrass the company.
What are your thoughts on what to do when someone's dressing totally inappropriately for the office, either in the moment or on a systematic basis? (And, for the sake of a focused discussion, let's set aside those times when it's something the person didn't realize, perhaps, until too late — a shirt that gapes open, a skirt that needs a slip, an unfortunate skirt-tucked-into-underpants moment — because there, we think, a piece of friendly advice or two (double-sided tape! you can borrow the slip I keep in my office! psst, your skirt is tucked into your underpants!) is always going to be welcome. )
This whole discussion reminds me of the bank employee who claims she was fired for being too hot. How do you not come off like that?
The other thing I would add — act kindly towards people who are wearing clothes that may not be as high quality as those you can afford. Not every intern has the money to buy an expensive high quality set of suits, or a family to support them. I know that summers make a lot, and everyone could have a credit card, but everyone’s circumstances are different, and if someone is adhering to the dress code and looking as professional as possible, then I would tend to keep my mouth shut, or casually mention places that have high quality clothes for a good value (I’m think of Lands End, but there are others).
I agree with this to an extent, but, it also reminds me of something I once read in a review of Ugly Betty, of all places. Target makes button-blouses and pencil skirts. I think (giving the OP the benefit of the doubt) that the topic is less about a fixation on a lack of Calvin Klein/Brooks Brothers suits, and more about clothes that simply fail to cover private areas. I could be wrong. But, I agree, no one should be taken to task for wearing “lower end” but still professional, or at least decently-covering-all-pertinent areas, clothing. And I have never really bought clothes on credit, and would never expect anyone to (though they are free to), but, in the past (and, hey, sometimes now), I have shopped at KMart, Sears, JCPenney, and Target, and they sell (yes, somewhat dowdy and boxy, but still work-appropriate) basics for work.
One of my favorite work dresses is from Walmart, and I don’t think anyone would guess it. With all the options out there – TJ Maxx, Target, etc. – I don’t think money can be an excuse to dress inappropriately.
I totally agree — that was my point. That if someone is dressing professionally but maybe the fiber isn’t as nice as high end clothes, don’t bag on them and don’t bring it up. They probably are aware, and unable to do anything about it, and may have other circumstances that make them feel like they don’t fit in in biglaw, or where ever they are.
I’m a law intern and I need a little advice. I feel like my current internship is not going as well as my last internship. At my last internship, the lawyers consistently gave me good feedback and treated my contributions as if they were valuable. Unfortunately my current internship is not going so well.
I feel like my boss thinks I am stupid. I can’t think of a better way to put it. He once informed me that a former female colleague of his was stupid for asking a question about something she apparently should have known. Ever since that day, I have had a sneaking suspicion that if I make a mistake, ask the wrong question, or take too long to complete an assignment, I am probably going to be placed in the stupid category.
To be fair, I have had a rough time with this internship. I have made plenty of mistakes, but I always make an effort to learn from them. Furthermore I am learning about an area of the law which I was barely familiar with when I came into the internship.
I also take longer to do things than some other law students. I am very meticulous, thorough, and cautious. I know those qualities may make me look as if I am too slow and unable to work under pressure, but that is not the case. Once I learn how to do something, I become very efficient and good at doing it. I am also very passionate about working hard, going the extra mile, and impressing my employers.
Today my boss jokingly said something that made me realize he doesn’t think much of my abilities as an employee. It really hurt. I need a little advice or sympathy, so I thought I’d post here.
I’m really sorry this is happening to you. My normal advice would be to ask your boss or anyone whom you’ve worked for to give you some advice as to how you can improve your work. However, your boss sounds like a douche and I’m not sure it would work with him. Has he only had female interns or does he think women in general ask stupid questions? Sounds like he has lots of pre-conceived notions here so that your work may not be getting the “fresh look” it deserves. Is there anyone else in the office you trust or could be a mentor-type person to you (not another law intern)? If so, I’d ask them for advice.
Yeah, there’s somebody else I trust a bit more than him who I can talk to if it comes to that. Sadly there are no female lawyers where I work. Honestly, the last female lawyer got fired for good reasons and I think that could have affected my employer’s outlook. Now that I’ve calmed down a bit, I think I am just going to have to continue to do my best and try not to take things so personally. I think he’s from the old school and feels like he has to provoke me or push me to get me to do well. I respond to the exact opposite approach: praise coupled with constructive criticism. The environment I am in may not be ideal, but at least I am getting a lot of good experience.
I agree that your boss sounds like a douche. I think you have a really good outlook going forward.
I know this is not my place, but I figure (hopefully) it doesn’t hurt to offer this advice. You are obviously free to take it or leave it. I am a member of the “millenial” generation – which I assume you are too. If I am wrong, I am really sorry.
Anyways, I noticed you said you respond well to “praise coupled with constructive criticism” and I really think you might want to look into this. I just don’t think that is a feasible attitude going forward in a legal career. You are not always going to get “praise” and you will be lucky if the criticism is constructive. Law firms are businesses and our generation has a really bad reputation for needing to be told they are more awesome than they are.
I am in no way saying you do this, because I don’t even know you (obviously). You very well could not have this attitude at all (you just shared it on a blog).
I am just saying I would be careful how you approach criticism in the workplace and in whom you confide your preferred method of workplace learning. If nothing else I hope my post raises your awareness of how others might perceive a comment like that. I think if you know how you work best, you can find the right workplace for you. But I think us newbies should be cognizant of our status and should approach asking for or even suggesting that our bosses change their working style to accommodate our preferences for learning with extreme caution.
Again, your current boss sounds like a douche and I would proceed as you have said you will–learn as much as you can from this experience and, economy willing, find a better working environment for you. But, just be careful and appreciate the reputation that our generation has as you interact with other generations.
Anyways, again, that is just my advice. I hope I haven’t said anything to upset you while you’ve already had a bad day. I just wish the best of luck for you as you go forward. It sounds like you will be an excellent attorney :-)
I do not mean to imply that I want my boss to change his management style. Instead I will have to adjust to his style. I’m sorry that was not clear.
“You are not always going to get “praise” and you will be lucky if the criticism is constructive. ”
That’s a great way to put it. I’ll have to bear that in mind.
To anonymous at #153 – Please don’t let it get you down! I haven’t much advice to offer except that there will always be one partner or another whose comments are, shall we say, less than congenial. While valid criticism needs to be taken into account, sometimes all you can do is ignore/disregard either the entire comment, or the bits that are completely unwarranted. It just isn’t worth the emotional energy to be hurt or angry over something carelessly said, which might be completely incorrect or untrue.
I don’t have any advice, but I’m sorry, that sounds terrible. It seems like you are doing what you are supposed to be doing and that the boss IS, like lawDJ says, a douche. Best of luck and I hope the situation improves!
Firstly, your boss sounds like a jerk.
Secondly, I know the type, sometimes this “type” just has no faith in anyone young/new/inexperienced. It may not be a total reflection on you.
When I started my career I was always teamed up with a senior woman on my team. She tried to mentor me, and made it quite clear that she wouldn’t have faith in me until I paid my “dues” and had as much experience as her. I tried not to let it get to me – because really it had nothing to do with me and only to do with the fact that I was young – and yes – inexperienced. But it didn’t reflect on my actual ability to handle tasks at hand – it was all her own issue. Some people can handle inexperienced people and the unknown better than others. She had major trust/control issues, your boss might too.
Needless to say, that particular women cracked and quit during a very high stress project I was working with her. My confidence has soared since getting to work on my own with her gone.
So to clarify a bit more – listen to what he says, but continue to be confident in your ability. Ask for suggestions on what he thinks you are not doing well – there may be some room to improve. But over all be confident (but not cocky) around him (these types tend to get really nervous around the first hint that someone isn’t confident in their work).
I’ll bite and play devil’s advocate. Are you working for a litigation partner? It sounds to me like your qualities would be an excellent fit in transactional work. Sadly, you probably won’t see any of this as an intern, and if you’re looking for an offer it’s not the side to sell yourself on. In litigation, though, the perfectionist tendencies can be a weakness (and not just a fake weakness people give in interviews). Sometimes you’ll have to craft arguments that drive a perfectionist nuts (because you know they have holes bigger than the Ozone) as possible negotiating throwaways or because you’ve got terrible facts/law and you really don’t have any other option. It’s possible your boss wanted to throw a curveball at you and see if you can handle doing litigation work knowing that you aren’t always going to be able to present perfect work. Like the other commenters said, I think this would be a pretty jerky way to accomplish this, and especially to an intern–but I did say I’m playing devil’s advocate, so there’s one way to think about it (and remember, he’s a man so it doesn’t have to make sense to us!).
If this is the case, my best advice is to keep your chin up and just be determined to prove him wrong. He is most likely looking for this kind of fighter attitude. Focus on turning in your best work knowing that it doesn’t have to be perfect (you are an intern, after all). Obviously this doesn’t mean go crazy and turn off spell check or do halfway research, but it doesn’t sound like you’re likely to do that. Sometimes I think it’s stressful as an intern because during the school year, students are used to being given assignments that the professors know they should be able to handle. Some of the assignments attorneys give are not carefully thought out as to be within an intern’s realm of capabilities. Since he doesn’t sound like the person to go to if you think something might be too much, I second the above comment about finding another person in the office to go to. Just tell them you’re having difficulties with a certain part of your assignment and would appreciate some guidance or, if they think it is appropriate to ask the boss for more instruction (in other words, if they think the boss assigned too much with too little information).
If you try everything commenters suggest on here and he still makes you this uncomfortable, then he may not be the type of boss you want to work for. I know it’s a terrible economy, but it sounds like you had a positive experience at your first internship that it could be an option if you’re a 2L. If you’re a 1L and you’re not looking for a full-time offer out of this, forget him and move on.
I agree that I need to work on doing things on the fly, as that is sometimes part of my job description. I have someone in mind who I can chat with about improving that aspect of my work.
I don’t anticipate an offer for reasons unrelated to me, but I can work my contacts at my other internship if I need to. Thanks for your reply.
I agree with this. Litigation requires quick decision-making and turnaround. You really have to master the art of doing the best you can in the time you have – sometimes that’s a lot and a perfectionist’s dream, and sometimes you cringe and never want to read that motion again. It’s not always great for analytical types who are meticulous and slow to make decisions. That’s not a failing of the analytical types. It just means a different area might play to their strengths.
This. I got no-offered at a lit position just out of law school which was devastating at the time but now – working in-house – I can see that I was totally wrong for that kind of work and am almost grateful for the entire miserable experience.
I don’t really have advice, but do have sympaty. I was once told (by a clerk (when I was an intern)) that I had too much of a “scorched earth” style of writing, e.g, as she explained it, I pursued (in written orders) every argument that could be made, then shot it down. As she explained it to me, the court doesn’t really have to justify itself to such an extent. She was actually helping me/educating me, but I remember it to this day with a teeny bit of embarassment. (Interestingly, the judge we both worked for had, and has since then, told me that I was one of the fastest opinion writers/workers he has known, so I was able to take her thoughts with a grain of salt.) But it’s tough to be told, “you’re slow,” when you are trying to be conscientious.
As for your boss, I believe it was wrong of him to use the word “stupid” in his description to you of your predecessor. The predictable effect was to lower your morale. He doesn’t seem to have good leadership or teaching skills. Use this potisiton as a learning opportunity, and keep in your mind the fact that YOU are using it, and not vice-versa.
AND I meant “sympathy,” not “sympaty,” whatever that may be!
It sounds as if your office might prefer speed and efficiency to meticulousness. Obviously you don’t want to be careless, but you might want to consider adjusting your output to find an optimal balance of quality and speed. A book that I found really helpful for my first job out of college (and later re-read during law school) is The Big Sister’s Guide to The World of Work. I don’t know how much work experience you have, but it’s geared to those who are new professionals and offers advice that seems really basic but can really make a difference in your personal development. One of the things that helped me was focusing on your boss’ priorities and working style, instead of trying to make him/her appreciate your strengths if they don’t fit that style. If the culture is all about speed, your meticulousness won’t win you many brownie points even if your work is the best quality.
Hang in there. Don’t assume that his critical comments in a moment are what he thinks of you, and don’t assume that because he criticized another woman asking questions, he thinks you’re “stupid” for doing the same thing. In my experience, people mostly share such thoughts only after they have formed an opinion that the person they are speaking with does not share the negative quality they are attributing to a third party. Probably he thought she was stupid for a variety of reasons, and thus every question rubbed him the wrong way. I’ve had people who I thought were more critical of my work later turn out to be my strongest advocates, and people who gave me praise to my face then stab me in the back come review time. People say all kinds of things in the moment, and it reflects more on their personality than it does on your work.
As for being slower than the others, are you sure about that? I always thought I was way too slow as a summer associate, but my employers didn’t complain. Generally slow is fine for a junior person, as long as you are meeting deadlines and communicating about your progress on longer-term assignments. The one thing you want to avoid is spinning your wheels because you don’t really know what the assignment requires.
That said, I think for any perfectionist it’s a good idea to try to distinguish between work that really warrants your best effort, and work that only warrants 80% effort, especially when 80% will take 50% of the time. As a summer, you are trying to impress, but try to at least think about whether a specific assignment warrants the full effort before you put it in. Once you are in a permanent job, being able to be careful when warranted, and quick when not, will be a useful skill, even if your employer generally appreciates methodical work.
I would phrase it as career advice. Say that, while you think the intern is a great worker, “other people”will make snap judgments based on how someone is dressed, and you’re worried if she doesn’t dress up (even dressing up jeans) it could keep superficial people from seeing her talent.
I can tell you as a new attorney working for a government agency, it can be hard to figure out how to dress. Attorneys in my office never go to court, and our “clients” are all over the country, so meetings are on the phone. As a result, we’re really casual. I’ve tried to model my dress based on my supervisor and another woman in my office, but if I had picked the wrong person, I would appreciate someone pulling me aside. I’d rather know now if I’m hurting my career, instead of 10 years when I’ve been passed up for yet another promotion.
I usually confer with other female coworkers and we select who to do the deed- usually a mid-age, so they don’t seem to old out of touch or young too close. We once had an intern with flops and those ribbed tanks with size G boobs sticking out- and gently told her- and she defended herself with the I’m broke excuse. Please, those tanks cost the same as a pack of white T shirts at Target. We did not hire her. I tend to agree with the others about ‘why bother’ unless they are special= UNLESS I have to take them to stuff, in which case I just won’t tolerate it because it’s my impression they can then impact.
I actually have had to tell an intern that she was dressed inappropriately (spaghetti strap tank tops, flip flops, very tight T-shirts). My passive-aggressive boss made me do it instead of her. Oh, wait, the boss was delegating work. Right.
I’d like to second (fourth?) the suggestion to make the dress code clear on the first day. As someone who has always been conscientious and rather conservative in her dress, I appreciate being told straight up what is what. Especially for things like open toed shoes, the policy for which can vary a lot from office to office – and a permanent employee might prefer them but keep a pair of court appropriate pumps in her office just in case (a luxury an intern might not have)
I totally agree. When I started at my company, noone could tell me if opened toed shoes were OK or not. There was only one women in senior leadership – and she wore them – so we tended to use that as an excuse for us to as well. My male boss told me he had no idea if they were allowed, but personally, he hated having to look at people’s feet so he wished they weren’t. It was so unclear!
“Especially for things like open toed shoes, the policy for which can vary a lot from office to office – and a permanent employee might prefer them but keep a pair of court appropriate pumps in her office just in case (a luxury an intern might not have).”
This is completely legitimate, even if you’re a broke intern. You can keep a pair of court-appropriate shoes in your desk drawer and a black suit coat hanging up in your cube or on the back of your chair for unexpected court appearances, even as an intern. If you don’t have an assigned desk, then get a large purse (there are cheap versions — try eBags or Target) and carry them back and forth with you to work. It’s completely understandable that you can’t afford to leave a drawer full of shoes at work as an intern, but you can get cheap appropriate shoes at Payless, Marshall’s, Walmart, wherever for $15. They may not be very comfortable and they may not last very long, but since you will only be using them for emergencies, it doesn’t matter. Think of them as shoe insurance.
We had the same issue with people starting to wear tshirts on jeans Friday.
The head of our area sent out a memo reminding us that Jeans Friday does not equal Casual Friday. While jeans are allowed, the regular dress code for shirts/shoes was still in place. And no faded/colored/ripped/sandblasted/distressed or cargo jeans were allowed.
That makes it pretty clear. Really, you should just spell it out and send out a memo. I agree with people should know not to wear tees and ripped jeans to work, but well, sometimes people start to stretch it. And when one person sees it, the rest just start doing it because it seems to look okay.
If I saw someone wearing flip flops, who I worked with or was above, I would probably ask, “Why are you are wearing flip flops?” That way they can say, “Oh, I am heading out to lunch and don’t want to walk in my heels!” Or, “Why, what’s wrong with flip flops?” Or, “These aren’t flip flops they are $500 Tory Burch sandals!”
As long as you know the person, I think it’s fair to ask and then respond with something like, “Well just so you know, flip flops are against the dress code – so don’t forget to change them when you get back from lunch”
We can all read, thank you very much – no need to spam every post here!
Many of these comments have a harsh or dismissive edge to them that really disturbs me. Why wouldn’t you want to help out an intern in this situation? The situation may be somewhat more complex than “kids these days simply don’t care enough and aren’t professional enough.” Becoming a professional is something you grow into and, depending on your upbringing, may require more or less growth on your part. I grew up as a 2nd generation American, whose mom did not work outside the home. I knew very few professional women growing up. My mom is a very elegant, pulled together person in her way, but I had virtually no role models for how a professional should dress or otherwise comport herself in this country and business culture. I did not know what was or was not appropriate to wear to work and made many mistakes, within certain bounds (no flip flops or visible bra straps or jeans, but uncoordinated outfits, corduroy pants). Nor did I know what a *big* deal it was to some people; in fact, the comments on this blog regularly surprise me because others’ mistakes seem so often to be taken as personally offensive. I think I still make mistakes. I get the “rules” but I’m not that great at putting together outfits and I really struggle with that overall professional look that I see on others. Having kids has compounded that a thousand times over as have no time to shop for myself and I prefer to wear clothes that are washable as much as possible. In fact, next week I’m meeting with a personal shopper to work on my wardrobe and professional image. Rather than judging someone as not caring or being hopeless or clueless or stupid, consider that they may have other, invisible limitations and may be willing to work on overcoming them. Learning business etiquette is not that easy. I also think young people get many mixed messages — “find yourself”, “be yourself”, “be creative”, “don’t become a corporate tool”, etc. — that don’t really work in the real world. The fashion media certainly doesn’t help as I have rarely seen a work appropriate outfit in any fashion magazine. And more senior professional who have paid there dues may have more lattitude in how they dress, but a young intern may not realize that they can’t emulate the senior partner wearing the leather jacket to work. (in fact, a lot of problems arise from younger professionals not realizing that more seasoned professionals have earned certain rights, like maybe dressing a certain way or setting their own hours; they just think “it’s the culture, I can do it too!”). Given all that I think it takes time to develop a professional image. Going back to the original topic — I would try to build a rapport with the intern and discuss the situation conversationally/as an informal mentor.
I’m 25 and a second generation immigrant and completely disagree with you. Today’s young workers are more connected and more informed than ever. We are perfectly capable as a generation of sifting through the conflicting messages to find the truthful nuggets. The ability to google the phrase ‘work appropriate clothing’ and the mass production of cheap clothing in today’s society essentially remove every barrier to appropriate dressing that any intelligent young person can face.
I am frankly surprised by the hesitancy and willingness to bend over backwards displayed on this thread by presumably, highly qualified and successful women. I don’t think that men would be so lenient on subordinates who are so clearly ignorant as to the norms of a professional work environment.
Your post resonates a lot with me. I’m a first generation American and we don’t have any professional women in my family. My mom to this day wears saris to work, which is perfectly fine for her work setting but obviously not appropriate for most of us.
When I got my first job in consulting, I wore a variety of clothes that technically was appropriate – pants, skirts, blouses, etc., but in retrospect I realize that there was something a bit off with most everything – the skirts were a bit high, the pants were too low, the blouses were a little low cut, etc. I think everyone knows the basics on what to wear but it’s sometimes these nuances that get lost in the details. I also think that women’s magazines often do women no favors in what they promote as “work appropriate clothing.” Often times it’s really low cut and inappropriate clothing that is more suitable for a Bebe catalog than BigLaw.
All this goes to say that I do think women owe it to our female interns to say something about their clothing, in a kind and compassionate manner.
Spam much? I clicked your website and my spyware blocker flipped out.
I work in the PR industry so dress codes are somewhat difference and a bit of individuality is relished. However, when an industry demands that you turn up to work smartly dressed (even on Jeans Friday!) clean hair and nails with tidy clothes still isn’t enough. It is a case of showing respect for your sector.
Even if you don’t know the intern that well, I am sure that if you took an interest in them they would be delighted. A bit of constructive criticism here and due praise there will encourage them to ‘up their game’ and if they took it the wrong way then that’s their problem. I know when I started out I know how grateful I was for any advice anyone offered.
Q: What are your thoughts on what to do when someone’s dressing totally inappropriately for the office, either in the moment or on a systematic basis?
A: Inappropriate attire distracts from the company’s mission; if a customer is not focused on the company but on an employees clothing. Neutral clothing/appearance is better for the company paying one’s wage than distracting appearance.
This thread seems to be petering out, but I do have a question. I’m a mid-level associate at a small (6 attorney) firm, and the only woman attorney here. The other attorneys all regularly wear jeans and polo shirts to work in the summer, jeans and long-sleeved shirts in the winter, and sometimes dress even more casually.
I regularly wear jeans and an appropriate top. No one has ever commented on my attire and I’m being considered for possible partnership this year or next year. I just want to provide an alternate perspective to some of the posters on here, who seems like they’re in larger firms or more formal firms.
However, as a caveat, I will say that I always dress up when I’m going to see other attorneys and ALWAYS for court.
I have worked at a law firm for 15 years.
Ditch the jean immediately.
Wear talbots slim ankle pants with cardigans around your neck and tiny pearl studs on Friday. Think Grace Kelly
I accidently hit post.
Buy a pair of Tods driving Mocs. Look like you need to make 150k because that’s your lifestyle. Men wear golf shirts to designate they belong to golf clubs, an expensive hobby.
The ONLY thing men think of when they see young woman in jeans is that you are young and your ASS.
Men dont judge men, they Judge women.
Also, NEVER wear a ponytail.
Never wear a ponytail? Please explain.
Ha!! Ha!!!
I am an attorney at a small practice firm (about 10 attorneys) as well as being the only female attorney. I’m in court usually 4 times a week. I wear a ponytail(or a bun) almost every single day!! I actually think that it is weird when I see other 30/35 year old attorneys with long ratty hair hanging halfway down their back. I’m sure it looked nice that morning, but by 11:00 a.m. it just looks stringy.
But on the jeans issue……I do agree, you can get away with dark trouser jeans (never regular jeans!!) on Fridays, but otherwise, wear pants, skirts, simple sheath dresses ect., when you’re not in court. Ann Taylor and Banana Republic are your friend! Tod mocs and ballet flats are the way to go.
I don’t have an answer to the post’s question, but I do want to say that instituting a casual day and then being aghast when someone comes in dressed casually is at best a misguided policy. The purpose of casual days generally is (as I understand it) to let people relax, help morale, etc. — making it merely a slightly less formal day sounds counterproductive.
Agreed!
Casual at a place of business means business casual, which is actually VERY different from casual. It’s not misguided or misleading (which is what I think you meant to say), but a way for people to show their style in a way that is still work appropriate. Trendy jeans, sandals, and inappropriate shirts (halter tops, etc.) are not business casual. Some offices may vary in their dress codes, but terms like business casual have specific guidelines. Stores like JCrew, Banana Republic, Anne Taylor, and Anne Taylor LOFT have great business casual options.
For better or worse, I decided long ago that inappropriate attire would be the subject of a quiet, one on one, suggestion. Although male, I work in a small firm environment. Focus of firm is client-oriented and it is important to present professionally to business clientele. Clients do notice, whether they choose to comment or not. A small embarrassment is better than continued gaffe. The firm image to clients is the overriding concern here.
The focus here is a true gaffe, not trying to be the fashion police. I am fully aware that some firms have very rigid dress codes, but that is not the case. However, the casual Friday approach was a failed experiment and male lawyers wear a suit every day, but leave the coat off. In that environment, the opportunity for error is not as high as trying to deal with some of the more relaxed dress codes. By the way, casual Friday did fail because of failure to draw boundaries that were appropriate (i.e. t-shirt, cargo pants and flops were not intended).
A polite one on one suggestion can be made without making it an ordeal, when appropriate. Again the concern is client focused, and the clients do notice a lot.
Agreed. I was an intern myself not too long ago, and received two pieces of advice that I have since lived by. First, no boobs, no butt, no belly (rules my aunt gives to her fourth grade students which she gave to me before I started work). Second, dress for the job you want, not for the job you have (given to me by my insternship supervisor before I left). As the former piece of advice was from my aunt, I of course took no offense. And the latter was much appreciated, as she sat down with me, told me how much she’d enjoyed having me for the summer, gave me some career advice, and as an aside, made the comment about dressing.
Having now switched over to having interns myself instead of being one, whenever I have a female intern, I make sure to do the same thing for her, and it’s always genuinely appreciated. I think the most important thing is to make sure you do it in a positive way, and that if you do, it’s generally accepted as genuine care and advice.
I’m wearing cords and a polo and I’m an atty at a fed agency. On Friday it’s jeans (or shorts in this heat and humidity) and a tshirt.
What I’m wearing says nothing about my ability to practice law.
Perhaps, but the fact that you are a fed agency drone says you are an unskilled or unmotivated lawyer.
On the upside, as long as you wear ANYTHING to the office and do not commit murder during working hours, you can keep your dead-end job until retirement at 75.
Dorkstein, I have been working for a federal agency for three years and now have better trial and litigation skills than the grey-haired male partners I go up against on a regular basis. Trading money for quality litigation experience does not make someone unmotivated, and I mean no disrespect to young biglaw associates reading this blog between hours of document review. Dorkstein, your jealousy at our job security is a little obvious. It’s unflattering. Try to hide it in a few years when I go to work at your firm as a partner, having skipped all that document review.
Men can get away with any attire if they are attys.
That was uncalled for.
Wow. Maybe the fact that you work at a firm means you have no friends and no social life so you make up for it by working all the time. Everyone has a good reason for their choices.
I’ve worked in a government agency for over six years, having spent more than 10 years prior to that in private practice.
The incompetence of the career government attorneys I work with has not yet ceased to amaze me.
I am sad that this stereotype exists and is so angrily presented by supposedly fellow professionals. As a federal atty who works in an office jammed with former federal district and appellate court clerks and many former big law associates, I will happily pit my (and my coworkers) skills against any other lawyer’s anytime. And if drafting the laws and regulations that govern your clients’ business activities and lives and litigating to ensure that the public good is served renders government service a “dead-end job,” then bring it on!
So, you’re a Federal Clerk? No one see you except your Judge and her staff.
You research and write and never see clients. It doesn’t matter what you wear, unless it’s a court or conference day.
No – not a federal clerk; a federal [agency] attorney whose office is full of FORMER clerks, I said.
Look, some people are just trashy. It doesn’t matter what their education level is: trashy people will always be trashy.
They will talk trashy, act trashy, and dress trashy. It’s been going that way for a three decades now. It began with casual Fridays, progressed to casual offices, and now it is what it is.
My advice would simply be to ignore the trashy interns. Further, if you have some hand in whether or not they are eventually hired, find any reason you can to keep them out of your firm.
Yes! My sister, bless her, is a newly minted (and talented, likeable, smart) physician who cannot stop dressing like she is trying to mix and match her nightclub and church pieces. She is fortunate enough to be rescued, at least in part, by a long white coat. But she is, truly, a hopeless case in terms of finding a professional dress code that works for her. An added wrinkle (pun intended) is that she really needs to be able to put everything in the wash (to disinfect, in some cases fight bodily fluid stains), and realistically she does not have the time/money to dry clean.
Go over and seperate her clothes onto two sides of her closet, LOL
I admit, I haven’t read every comment in this article, but I’ve gotten through a decent amount. I have yet to see any mention of a more casual office setting. I’m a graphic design intern with a job in a design department as part of a marketing department, which is part of a larger company. The company is green/environmental-based, so the atmosphere leans much more modern than conservative. Further, designers are notoriously known for dressing more casually than their counterparts (sometimes embarrassingly so.) Every day, my male boss wears a button down collared shirt, jeans or khaki cargo shorts, and Converse sneakers. I’ve been dressing nicer than this (skirts, dresses, camisoles with cardigans, flats, etc.), but I’ve seen others in the office wearing flip flops, tshirts, etc. It’s been difficult to find a balance between looking appropriate for the setting and looking completely out of place, while also feeling confident and comfortable with what I’m wearing.
When I worked in a similar environment, the “production” team was allowed to wear jeans and ultra casual clothes daily while everyone else was supposed to be wearing business casual (no jeans). We had two interns at one point who dressed up a little more than everyone else in the department and I remember that a lot of people called them the Barbie Twins. We had another stylish female in her early 30s in the department, but her look was more artsy and less sorority chick, so she seemed to get more respect as a designer than the BTs.
It’s not a professional environment, it’s an artistic environment. Completely different standards.
I do just want to clear up, though, that my very small department of 3 designers including me is part of a large company with offices in 2 cities. My office has about 100 people and is very much a corporate environment, but not a conservative one. When we have office-wide meetings, I often feel out of place in my flats compared to the majority of the women wearing heels. It’s difficult to balance the more casual wear of my department with the office as a whole.
I would much rather have it brought to my attention, rather than have my superiors talking about it behind my back. I would much rather be momentarily embarrassed, than an embarrassment to the company.
1) congrats, Kat, on all the coverage! I’ve seen this post linked on 2 other sites!
2) I see people talking about more casual/ artsy environments. The name of this blog is “Corporette.” Casual, artistic, labor focused jobs are super cool. But they aren’t so much the target of this site, or the province of most of it’s readers.
3) As a person early in my career, I’d say do please say something! It’s a minefield, and asking can seem pretty unprofessional or shallow. (Do I look alright? what should I wear?). It might even open up the door for a discussion the intern would love to have! It’s difficult to read if everything is appropriate for everyone of if the right to not wear a suit is earned by partners, but not yet by interns, or if wearing the suit is going to make you seem stuffy etc.
Wow! Different country (New Zealand), very different rules regarding dress codes.
When I was employed four years ago, a copy of my company’s dress code policy was sent to me along with my contract, to be signed and initialed before I was employed. This is not unusual.
The policy states “Employees must ensure they are well groomed and dressed in appropriate attire that reflects the company’s interest by projecting a professional image”. It then outlines attire that is/isn’t regarded as appropriate (flip flops are not), and concludes with “Disciplinary action (up to and including termination of employment) may be taken against an employee if they repeatedly do not observe the dress and presentation standards set out in the policy.”
On the first day of work after the Christmas/New Year break each year (our summer) a memo is sent from HR to remind us of this dress policy.
It may seem draconian, but because clear guidelines were given at the outset, I haven’t slipped up, and have never been in the uncomfortable position of having to look at the exposed flesh of a co-worker I’d rather not see.
The problem is that when you tell a young American to dress professionally, they paper dressed like one of the girls on “The Hills”.
This latest generation doesn’t have a clue. They dress like hookers and think if it’s fashionable, expensive, and pretty, it’s professional.
Haven’t seen “The Hills” – if this attire could be defined as “Clothing more appropriate for evening or leisure wear (such as excessively short
miniskirts, low-cut tank or halter tops, backless dresses, sheer clothing etc.)” it’s touched on in the “Specifically prohibited” section of the Dress Policy.
Because my employer clearly states their position on attire to every new employee (by sending a copy of the Dress Policy to be signed as “read and understood”) before employment commences – and reinforces it to everyone annually – plus the knowledge that it could lead to dismissal, everyone complies.
Do US law schools/colleges in general not advice students of appropriate corporate attire before they enter the workforce?
I tell them all, every one of them, every time.
Into my office they go, door shut.
I make them write it down.
No sexy clothes, no cleavage, no open back shoes, no mid-thigh skirts, nothing cling, no evening looks, no large earrings, no massive up-dos, no, no, no black nail polish, no unlined jersey shirt dresses, and no scrunchies!!
I also, say, I don’t want to see their pedicures except on Fridays.
Then, I tell them, they should wear polished clean natural makeup, ALWAYS be well groomed, including nails, brows, hair, cleanliness.
If ONLY their mothers did their jobs, we wouldn’t have to!
I’d be out of an internship so fast if someone told me what type of makeup I should be wearing. I can’t imagine working in a place where someone might think less of me if I wasn’t in the mood or couldn’t put on makeup regularly.
Kate above could mean something differently, but I think this just goes toward looking clean and well-groomed. The conversation may be necessary to AVOID certain kinds of makeup, not to emphasize that makeup needs to be worn. No raccoon eyes, neon-iridescent eye shadow, bright purple lipstick, too much blush, etc.
It’s also very individualized — while you may be able to look completely professional without makeup on, let’s face it — not all women can. It sounds like this advice is intended to be a catch-all up front, so it’s just easier to tell them to keep their makeup clean, natural and polished. May seem a bit draconian, but it cuts down on those awkward pull-em-back-in talks later.
I am shocked by what a common problem this is. I am 29 – too old to be an intern but young enough that I (think) I still understand the youngest employees.
Work wear rules of thumb:
1) When in doubt, err on the side of conservative. No one is going to think less of you for wearing a knee length skirt on a Friday but they will judge you for a low cut tank top.
2) Note what your superiors are wearing and emulate their style
3) Refer to rule #1
This is your career. You are working hard to establish yourself as a professional and how you look is an important part of that image.
wow, I’m just surprised by the negative and judgmental comments here. Glade I didn’t intern with most of you.
We’re glad you didn’t as well.
I recently went to a group interview for volunteering at a non-profit.
Two girls who needed to fulfill internships showed up. They were attired with sandals, tank tops and short, shorts. Just covering the tush. I still think either I or they are from another planet.
All I can say is “Know your audience”. This particular piece of advice works in all situations. If you know that your boss is conservative, but then you have a casual outing or day at work, then dress casually but conservatively (this means no underwear should be seen, no body parts should be peeking out that show what gender you are). If you have a casual day but know that you still might see clients, then dress conservatively but casually (this means nice jeans, no holes, or better yet, some khaki pants, and not skin tight) and plan on having a jacket on hand to cover up too much “casual”.
And no, this is not judgmental (aimed at the person who said that so many comments were judgmental), this is common sense. It would seem that common sense is in short supply with interns, sometimes.
The point is not to berate or belittle if someone has a clothing gaffe. Frankly, a law firm is a service business. If you are dealing with the clients, or in a firm where a professional environment is expected, then dress to the part. If it is not a fit, then so be it.
Clients and providing good service to them is why a law firm exists. While I fully respect the individual right of someone to dress in a t-shirt, cargo shorts and flip flops on the individual’s own time, it does not present well to clients. You can be a top flight, brilliant attorney and dress like a slob, but it is still not appropriate to the business of providing good service to business clientele. The clients notice and question it. Business owners have their own standards in their own businesses. A law firm that serves them sets an obstacle in its path if the employees do not maintain a professional image.
If you do not present well, it is difficult for people to overlook, even if you are very effective otherwise. Personal choice needs to yield to appropriate standards if a job is required, to a certain extent. If you value your appearance over your job, so be it.
As my name implies, my starting experiences were a while ago. In my first job as a lawyer [what was then considered a medium size firm], I was asked to tell another woman in my same year to dress better. This from males who wore huge plaids, pony briefcases, with belts to match, and white patent leather moccasins.
At another job [regional commercial bank], I was asked to tell my secretary to dress better. Now, she did dress poorly. But I told my boss, a very nice guy, BTW, that if there was no written dress code, I couldn’t suggest how she should dress. Later, when she moved on to another job, after learning that she was among the lowest paid of the secretaries, although one of the best], she ran out and bought some “nice” clothes.
In each instance, dress codes should have been in place. They wouldn’t have to specify Brooks Brothers suits, pumps, pressed white shirt and tie – and I’m talking about for the women – but the code should describe with enough specificity what does and what doesn’t fall within the appropriate guidelines.
On my own time, I dress as I please, but since I live in the business area of the city, I use some discretion, because I might always run into a business associate.
OTOH, I had one client who said he wouldn’t work with me if I weren’t wearing jeans! meaning casual, not ass-conscious.
I’m with everyone else who said
err on the conservative side
dress to fit the environment you’re working in
there’s a difference between judgmental and mentoring.
If your intern has any brains, he or she will adopt approximately the same sort of dress style worn by the rest of the staff. If they don’t pick up on this go ahead and give them some constructive criticism (privately). If they still don’t shape up, perhaps you don’t want to hire them long term.
A lot of people in my office are very confused about casual Fridays. Most of us wear clean, non-ripped jeans and decent shirts and shoes, but I have seen a woman wearing sweats and an old Simpson’s t-shirt, and several people in ripped jeans and flip-flops. If you’re working anywhere outside your own home, I don’t think that’s appropriate.
The worst to me is the clothing that reveals too much skin. Even if your blouse is by a designer name and otherwise really nice, I simply don’t want to see cleavage at the office. We also have a staff member here who routinely wears jeans that show the crack of his ass… not something I ever want to see, let alone at work. For something that bad, I say send the employee home.
Oh, and did I mention the partner who was interviewing a classmate at BigLaw? At the end of the many individual interviews, the last partner walked classmate to the lobby, went into the convenience shop and bought and presented classmate with a deoderant…. I don’t know if classmate got an offer from that firm, but hopefully got the message.
I have had a discussion with a female fellow that I work with in a government context, based on this website and several links that I followed a few months back, addressing how women’s dress is viewed at work by men. I’ve also had this discussion in less detail with several other women recently. By and large, women think they should be able to wear anything they want and not be judged by men. I counter by asking whether they want to be remembered for their work or their cleavage.
I took this more anecdotal approach as a way of saying that this person’s skirts are too short, jerseys are too casual, and necklines are too revealing. They are not intended to be, but if I notice cleavage, you know her 90% male office is noticing it, too. From what I can see, she may or may not have absorbed the commentary but hasn’t changed her wardrobe much. She’s very cute, and I assume that she will be remembered primarily for that attribute.
“I counter by asking whether they want to be remembered for their work or their cleavage. ”
Exactly. Sadly, many women want to have it both ways.
And, even more sadly, many men in the legal field are so inept socially that they won’t deter the cleavage showing because they never have (and never will) see anything like it in their personal lives.
To me, the duty is to the client. You want a good reputation not only in your own office, but with the community at large.
You want to dress like a stripper, go work at a strip club. You want to provide top notch legal services to your clients and have them refer you because of your professionalism, dress the part and make sure the only goods you are revealing are your legal labor.
I agree that there is a petty clear problem, seemingly unique to the young women, with a lack of understanding about what is appropriate attire in a conservative profession. But I’ve noticed another trend that is at least as troubling, and not entirely limited to the women: weight. In the past 5 years the average associate weight gain has easily exceeded 10 pounds per year. Rightly or wrongly, substantial excess weight is both a perceived and an actual negative. Combine it with clothes that are inappropriate and you have a professional disaster before your very eyes. And a partnership bar that the young employee is much less likely to reach.
Wait…so is it the excess weight that’s a partnership bar, or the inappropriate clothes? It’s not hard to understand how the hectic but mainly sedentary lifestyle of your typical associate might lead to weight gain. Of course it’s not good health-wise, but as long as you are still dressing professionally, why should that bar your career advancement?
Because we have a society that sees fat people as lazy. It is not true in many instances, but if you are not taking care of yourself (presumably the most important job in the world to you), then you might not do other jobs that well, either.
I am not saying that this is right, just answering your question.
In a former (pre-bar exam) job with a boss even worse than Michael Scott on “The Office”, I knew when to keep quiet. I noticed the young bleached blond lady in questionable attire was rather smart, but I bet the men noticed other things. She made it clear to her coworkers she would play the boss to be the favorite, and if that took wearing stripper shoes so be it. They went on “dates” together, which were met with flimsy excuses for the daytime excursions to art museums and such because “he had to make it up to her because she was sick the day of the company picnick.”
I almost couldn’t look at her without blushing. I swear I could see the bottom elastic on her underwear even when she stood. (Her thighs were heavy, too.) I walked into the room and right back out again when the consversation led to the boss thanking her for the nice veiw of her breasts.
Miss Floozy was able to drum up one complaint after another of me, as I protested to racist videos being played at the desk next to me, that of course she had emailed to the employee sitting at that desk. A workplace that allows such tacky attire will also allow other tacky behavior. A workplace full of innapropriate attire ON PURPOSE is full of low employee morale for many other reasons as well.
Whoa. I’m glad I don’t work there (and that you don’t either).
It’s difficult to comment when a coworker is wearing something that doesn’t work, but on the one day that person DOES wear something appropriate, a good strategy is to complement the heck out of that person. This works for significant others too!
I had to do exactly this – as a first year associate I had to tell a summer student that what she was wearing was too casual, although it technically fit the firm’s written policy on casual Fridays. I thought that it was better she know, so she would be remembered for her work (which was excellent) and not for her choice in fashion. I figured if I had a booger hanging out of my nose, I would rather be told about it and embarrassed in front of a few people rather than walk around with it all day…. She took it well, and thanked me for it (although I found out later that day at happy hour that she had told the other summer students that she was in trouble – which she certainly wasn’t!).
I’m a woman partner in a big law firm. Here’s the worst story I have: a young woman associate was wearing a purple lace thong at work. I know this because about two inches of it showed above her low-rise, cropped cargo pants. She complemented these with a midriff-baring t-shirt and flip-flops. This was not on a weekend day.
Okay, that’s an outlier (a really far-out outlier). But the mistake young women attorneys make is dressing so that they will remind the senior partners of their daughters rather than their peers. Even the most forward thinking, liberal senior attorney will think twice about sending someone who looks like his or her daughter to depose the other side’s executives or to meet with a client’s executives to advise them on the risks of their case.
Dress for the job you want. Dress to inspire confidence that you are the person to whom multi-million dollar problems can be trusted. You don’t have to shop at Talbots, and you don’t have to be frumpy. There’s considerable distance between frumpy and Lucky magazine. Cute as the Lucky look is, save it for the weekend.
Here are some specifics. Wear one trendy item with an otherwise quiet outfit. No flip-flops, period. No underwear showing (that includes bra straps). No scarves wound around your neck like a neck brace. No fussy clothes that require constant readjustment. Jackets convey the impression of confidence and authority, and cardigans are not a bad stand-in. Keep a dark jacket in your office. If you wear really high heels, make sure you can walk in them confidently and (seemingly, anyway) comfortably.
Things I wear occasionally: platform sandals; trendy jackets; statement necklaces; bags the size of my car; sweaters without jackets; t-shirts under suits. Things I don’t wear: fingernail polish (but toenail polish is OK); ruffles, especially with frayed or unfinished edges; pink; and did I mention flip-flops.
If you want to be a lawyer, express authority, confidence and maturity. If you want to wear trendy, fun looks that call attention to themselves, find a job where that kind of self-expression is valued.
No nail polish? I haven’t heard that one before.
Toenail polish, a nice pedicure, is a must if you are showing your toes!!
Who shows their toes at work?
Never wear jeans in a law firm, no matter “day” of the week it is (e.g., casual something)—wear attractive grey, black or khakis—it’s OK around the office. In court, dress conservatively—-if in doubt, go to the federal courthouse and observe what the attorneys wear. You can’t go wrong with conservative in a law or accounting firm.
I work at an office in nonprofit public health (which is notorious for being underdressed). A lot of my superiors (women) wear jeans, t-shirts, or those ungodly capri khakis. As an intern/entry-level, I still try and dress professionally, which includes button downs, skirts that come to my knee, never sleeveless, nice cardigan sweaters, etc. If I do wear jeans, and only on Fridays, they are either black or dark grey trouser-cut. I’d much rather my colleagues think I overdress a little than underdress. That being said, there is another intern who works in a cubicle right across from me that wears short shorts, tank tops, and sandals all the time. Even though we are on the same level, she works in a different department and I don’t think I’d feel comfortable telling her she needs to dress a little more appropriately.
It frustrates me that she doesn’t even realize she’s dressing inappropriately, even for my casual office.
As a young-side baby boomer former-practicing-lawyer-turned-headhunter, I can say that there is nothing positive to be said about being frumpy or dated in these fast moving times, still age-ist times. I would sooner slit my writs than wear man tailored skirt suits and floppy bow ties again– even if a boss wore them. Tailored clothing with one or two fashion twists in colors that favor your skintone and cuts which favor your body type–and which fit properly (neither skin tight nor swimming) — will never hurt you. It’s just that what you wear should not be revealing or loud so that its’ more memorable than your work. I certainly tell candidates all of the time when something I see seems inappropriate. When I was in a firm, I could never tell my peers, whether male or female, when they dressed badly–whether inappropriately or just unattractively. Years later, I have the confidence to do so.