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Readers had a great discussion in the comments about a week ago in response to a reader who asked, “Do you think it has gotten harder to be a woman attorney?” It prompted 60+ responses — making it one of our biggest comment threads — and we thought it deserved its own post! So, readers, especially if you didn't join in last time: Where do you stand on this question? Is it a simple “yes” or “no” for you, or much more nuanced?
Note: For today's conversation, let's use the context of the Before Times and set aside the complicating factors of the last year, e.g., unexpected/long-term WFH, school closures, mental health struggles. (CorporetteMoms readers have been talking a lot about the parenting-related factors, though!)
Here are some questions prompted by that comment thread on whether it's gotten harder to be a woman attorney:
1. One reader wrote that comparing the experiences and struggles of different generations is like comparing apples and oranges. Is it too simplistic to say that women have it harder/easier today as lawyers?
2. How do you evaluate the tradeoffs? One reader commented that while women may encounter less sexual harassment and blatant sexism than they did decades ago, attorneys today (of any gender) face higher expectations for base hours and for being reachable outside the office, a more difficult path to partnership, and higher student loan debt (without proportionally higher salaries).
3. What about the differences between working motherhood today vs. 20–40 years ago? If you're a lawyer mom whose mother was also an attorney, how have your experiences been different?
4. Many readers mentioned comments/discrimination that women attorneys had to deal with a generation ago that are unacceptable today, and an anonymous commenter said she sees those lawyers as “essentially literal superwomen.” Do you feel the same?
5. Finally, perhaps we can inject some intersectionality into today's discussion that wasn't really part of the comment thread — regarding race, class, etc. As reader “No Face” noted:
I’ve worked for two separate law firms that were over 90 years old. These firms literally wouldn’t have even interviewed me, a black woman, for an attorney job during most of their histories.
For those readers who weren't part of the original conversation, what are your thoughts? Do you think it has gotten harder to be a woman attorney? (For readers who are NOT attorneys — has it gotten harder to be a woman professional in general?) And for those who did join in, did any comments make you look at the topic in a new light?
Some social media images via Deposit Photos / GeorgeRudy.
Cat
I don’t mean to belittle the discrimination that earlier generations faced. However I think from the current perspective, aspects of it have gone further underground and can be tricky to attack.
I would have no issues spitting fire at someone telling me to go make coffee, asking me why I was still working even though I had a husband, or pinching my a$$. And most people seem to realize that such blatant behavior is going to land them with HR so don’t make such overt comments etc.
But finding out after the fact that your male peer took a client out for drinks and didn’t invite you even though he easily could have, because ‘oh it was just spur of the moment thing’ or ‘oh I assumed you couldn’t go bc of daycare pickup’ -> complaining can often backfire on the woman and make her look whiny.
Anonymous
First – Those behaviors did not land anyone with HR back then. A woman was expected to deal with that blatant sexism at work.
Second – All of the hidden and more surreptitious sexism, including the examples you gave, also occurred before, and they certainly would not have led to discipline if there was a complaint.
Cat
Oh I didn’t mean to say that on #1 (that it would have gotten the guy in trouble in the past) — I meant more that the super-obvious sexism is mostly gone vs earlier times, which is of course a net positive. But it can lead to men patting themselves on the back about how accommodating and understanding they are. Like in my second example about daycare pickup – that actually happened to a friend, and when I asked the guy later about it, he said “wait I thought we were supposed to be family friendly so I didn’t want to pressure her!”
Not trying to make this the suffering Olympics, just illustrate current challenges.
Seventh Sister
This is the thing I occasionally try to explain to my MIL and mom. Yes, job listings aren’t divided into “jobs for men” and “jobs for women,” and no interviewer is going to ask me whether I’m on birth control (happened to both of them). But discrimination has this magic way of going underground – you don’t get invited out for drinks, you don’t get put on a special project, you’re viewed as likely to leave because you have kids, etc. I’m a generally optimistic person, but some things are better and some things are just different sh*t, new bottle.
I’m a youngish GenXer, and I’ve definitely been asked to make coffee and why I’m still working even though I have a husband. And both of these things happened recently – within the last 10 years for sure. Also in the Before Times, people would walk right past the set of male assistants in the cubicle bay to knock on my glass door because woman = maker of copies.
Anon
I’m a millennial (35) and have been mistaken for a secretary/court reporter many times and when I got married (less than a decade ago) multiple partners at the firm asked me when I would be quitting or why I still wanted to work. One even made several snide remarks about how my husband (an academic) most not make enough money for me to leave the workforce.
I agree that physical harassment and blatant s*xual propositions are (mostly) gone but a lot of the stuff that is still happening is not terribly subtle. Although the subtle stuff certainly happens too.
Jaydee
I have some good small claims court stories. So was a legal aid lawyer and defended a lot of tenants in eviction cases. Our small claims court used mediators, most of whom were retired businessmen (few if any were lawyers).
When I first started practicing, I was 26 and got mistaken for a law student or clerk or legal assistant almost every time I was down there. Great for instilling confidence in your client who may already be questioning if “you get what you pay for” applies to free lawyers.
After I’d been practicing a few years I looked old enough that I didn’t get mistaken for a student anymore. But I had a case with a newer mediator, and he tried to push my client into a settlement that would have left them homeless. We had a solid defense, but the mediator was sure the judge would put my client out in 3 days so negotiating for a few extra days was the best possible outcome. Thankfully my client believed me. And to his credit the mediator came in and watched the hearing.
After the judge dismissed the case, the mediator came up and apologized and said he was impressed. And after that he was one of my favorites because he never doubted me when I said my client had a defense again and often told landlords that I was probably right and they should accept whatever deal I was proposing that would be favorable to my client.
But I’m not sure my male colleagues had quite the same experiences (there were probably 10-12 of us in our late 20s to early 30s hired over about a 3 year span, roughly evenly split between men and women).
anon
Yes, it must be. See pic implying perfect abdomen requirements in the post for this blog for starters.
Anon
You act like we didn’t also have that. Ours was more about ballet chic thinness.
Senior Attorney
Yeah, that’s been around forever.
Anon
I think that being an attorney is harder / worse overall. Being a woman attorney is a different kind of hard (so entry is easy and shockingly expensive; longevity is hard because of a lot of soft things like in the first comment but also just having kids makes the “always on” part of the job just impossible). I faced some overall challenges as a single lawyer in my 20s, but in a way that 90% overlapped why the job was also awful for male colleagues. As a parent who wants to spend more than an hour of time a day with my kids, it is just not compatible with the way I want to be a parent. But I had loans. So I just rob Peter to pay Paul . . .
Another anon
I think most agree being a male attorney is harder now than before, in some circumstances, right? (Hours, expectations of availability, etc.)
And, we all agree the early aspects of being a lawyer (going to college, going to law school, getting a first and maybe second job) are easier now for women than 40 years ago.
I think a change that may make it “feel” harder is the expectation. I assume women starting a law career in 1950-70 knew it was going to be an uphill battle, difficult, oppressive, etc. They decided they would rather do it than be a real estate agent or school principal, managing daycare centers, or being whatever the executive nursing job is (more socially “female” jobs.) Sure, those jobs probably had some challenges that we don’t have today, but comparatively, the women lawyers were taking the “hard” road. So, women looking for a “normal good job” would not have even tried. Maybe that applied all the way up to the early 90s?
I’m 37. I’ve known women lawyers since I was 16. I have seen women lawyers on TV since I was 12. Women judges are not uncommon in my liberal state. I came in thinking it would be hard in the way that many careers are (work, study, stress) but not really expecting there would be much notable sexism. Had I known, maybe I would have gone the school principal/ nurse etc. route? I think that is the difference.
I also think, though, that this happens/ has happened to a lot of women my age in other fields as well. The real world was very different from school and internships etc. And it isn’t obvious at first. It was harder before, but you knew you were in for it. Now, it is easier, but you feel like you are crazy 30% of the time because no one prepared you for it.
LeLe Fitch
Through the ‘90s at least it could be unbelievably hard, depending on one’s circumstances. I was older – 38 – when entering small law firm work as a law clerk while going to law school at night. Later – after bar passage – left for big law elsewhere, knowing I was giving up small town – & small firm – advantages, but bettered my type of work and work/life balance. Bottom line: it wasn’t ever easy! Often brutal! No overall regrets though – is life ever easy for women who depend on themselves?
Eek
I agree with this. I did not ever really consider that I was signing up to be a “female lawyer.” It wasn’t that I thought about the idea and rejected it, it just wasn’t even in my frame of reference. Now that perspective seems so incredibly naive because my gender has been an issue almost every single day of my career.
Cornellian
“..perspective seems so incredibly naive because my gender has been an issue almost every single day of my career” hits it right on the head.
Maureen
Gen X in BigLaw here. Here’s my lawyerly answer… it depends. BigLaw was and continues to be very, very hard. I wouldn’t be here if I hadn’t lateralled in as a mid-level partner from a small firm. I’ve been a parent as long as I’ve been a lawyer (20 years). 20 years ago women attorneys in positions of authority were still a novelty. This is no longer the case. The great news is, compared to 20 years ago, lady lawyers are much more visible as judges, lead counsel, in-house lawyers, ABA leadership, politicians. Representation is a so important. Firms realize mother attorneys can be and often are top performers. That said, in the non-profit and government sectors, I think it’s easier. I see far more women advancing to the top (US Attorneys, prosecutors, appellate specialists, GC roles) because they don’t have to compete for bus dev dollars.