ByElizabeth Hours Updated
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Thursday’s Workwear Report: High-Waist Trousers

A white woman in a white shirt and black pants (torso not visible)

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

Wit & Wisdom has long been one of my favorite mid-priced denim brands, so I’m feeling pretty confident that these skinny trousers will be equally fantastic.

The idea of “shaping” pants was a little scary to me at first, but I would describe them as having a light hold, rather than a tight squeeze (more like the Spanx “Thinstincts” line than the “Oncore” line if that’s something you’re familiar with!).

These pants would be a great office basic, especially paired with a slouchy blazer and a pair of loafers.

The pants are $68 at Nordstrom and come in sizes 00–18.

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Sales of note for 12.5

The pants are $68 at Nordstrom and come in sizes 00-18.

Sales of note for 12.5

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

357 Comments

  1. Between grad school, a casual previous job, and the pandemic, I literally have very few work clothes. I have a lot of skirts I can wear to work, but I’m looking for work pants. It seems like a lot of places I would normally think of for work pants, like Banana Republic have really changed their style to cater to WFH.
    What are some of your go-tos for work pants for someone with a booty?

    4. Call back to 15 years ago, but Club Monaco has been great lately for booty friendly work pants.

  2. What kind of country do we live in where members of government post animated videos attacking other members of government and then many people in the government think it is ok? I mean if i did that at my job I’d probably be fired and most people would agree that i should be fired

    1. I won’t look up the video or anything, but didn’t it even depict k! lling AOC?

      1. It did. It was beyond awful. I don’t love AOC but I loved this quote from her:

        “Threatening the life of a colleague is grounds for expulsion,” Ocasio-Cortez told reporters on Tuesday. “But given the Republican Party — especially the leader — is too cowardly to really enforce any standard of conduct … censure and committee removal is the next most appropriate step.”

        The Republican Party is rotten to its core. Every time you vote for a Republican, even a nice one, even for dog catcher, you send the message that what they are doing is OK. It empowers and energizes them to stay on this atrocious path.

        1. I’m honestly curious – does she have grounds to ask for a restraining order here, or sue for harrassment of some sort? I get that there are different standards for public figures but this IS a workplace and he made a direct threat to her life.

          1. If Jan 6 supporters can still show up to the office, it’s hard for me to believe that this will be an issue.

        1. This. Your argument is laughably missing the point that one of these things is not like the other.

        2. No one ever thought Kathy Griffin would actually commit an act of violence against Trump and she wasn’t actually encouraging people to do so.

      2. But she wasn’t Trump’s co-worker and an ELECTED OFFICIAL working in the same ‘business’. There are vastly different standards for what you can do on your own time as a private person (free speech, even hateful free speech) vs. what your employer is allowed to fire you for/tolerate from you as an employee.

      3. And she was roundly criticized for it and I believe lost job opportunities because of it. Wasn’t it also done in the context of a play? I keep thinking it was a production of King Lear where it is traditional to portray politicians as characters, but I can’t remember a beheading in King Lear.

        The problem is that the Republican party’s only platform is “own the libs.” And that’s what Gosar did, so he’s in. On the other hand Republicans who actually try to do something for their constituents, like approve infrastructure spending so bridges don’t fail, are being ejected from the GOP.

        1. You’re conflating a 2017 production of Julius Caesar at Shakespeare in the Park, in which the title character was a Trump lookalike (which was roundly criticized), with the Kathy Griffin photo shoot, which was also roundly criticized.

      4. Yes it was. And Kathy Griffin was canceled for that. She lost multiple jobs as a result. But nothing should happen to Gosar according to all but two members of his party? Disgusting.

      5. It was disgusting, says this liberal. But she is a D list celebrity with no governmental or other power. Poor comparison.

        1. And she suffered consequences! To imply that everyone ignored it is really disingenuous.

      7. This is the most hilarious stab (so to speak) at whataboutism that I’ve heard in weeks. Thanks for the laugh.

    3. A very strange one. There are plenty of people who disagree with AOC (me included), but I would never do anything dumb like that. That guy is very weird. I think he may have Incel tendencies, but I could be wrong. AOC caused NYC to lose alot of good paying Amazon jobs, but she is still entitled to her opinions, however misguided they may be. Dad thinks she is off base and pandering to the poor, but she grew up privileged near Chapaqua!

  3. PSA going into the holiday season:
    Make sure your shipping address is correct, especially if your billing and shipping addresses are different and you don’t use an account very often.
    I’ve got what seems like an entire nursery worth of baby stuff in my house thanks to the folks who lived here before I bought it 4 years ago. Now we’re figuring out how/if it’s worth it to pack up and forward it halfway across the country.
    This kid’s going to be able to wear a new onesie every day until s/he outgrows the size based on what’s arrived (so far).

    1. Good tip. Luckily I only moved a 2 miles away and the new tenant was kind, but I almost didn’t have a gift for a family.member the year I moved because the package was delivered to my old address because I forgot to fix my address in my rarely-used department store online account.

    2. I’d contact the company that sent the stuff, explain the situation, and ask for prepaid shipping labels to return or forward the stuff.

    3. I send my sister a Christmas gift from Sephora and unfortunately had her old address in my Sephora address book. She had just moved. She had gone over to her old house a couple of times to retrieve packages but the second time they told her that they would no longer be giving her any packages that mistakenly arrived at their home. So my Sephora package was apparently kept by the new homeowners (!) and I had to pay for a replacement to be sent to my sister. Enjoy your NARS, I guess, bitter new homeowners!!

      2. I dunno, I’d be pretty annoyed to constantly have to play mailman for a stranger who couldn’t get it together to change their address.

        1. Ok then express your annoyance or leave them on the porch, but don’t keep the loot that’s not intended for you!

        2. Life happens and people make mistakes. Unlike mail, it is harder to forward packages. For me, my real estate agent was helpful in putting me in contact with the prior resident.

      3. Wow, I’m really sorry that happened to you. I’m the OP and, having come within one click of accidentally shipping Christmas presents to my ex a few years ago, I know how easy it is to make the mistake!
        While I never in a million years would dream of keeping something for myself (even if it were camping gear, interesting books or dog toys), of all the things for me to get, a lifetime supply of onesies is quite possibly the most useless windfall possible to arrive at my house.
        I actually got a response from the person who ordered them. She’s going to figure out how much is still en route and when the onslaught ends, I’ll pack them up into one box and send them on.

        1. As someone who gets annoyed about having to return my own online orders to UPS, you are a really nice person for being willing to break down boxes, repack things, and mail them off – good on you!

        2. I second that you’re very kind to send them along. I’d totally just tell UPS/FedEx they’re not for me and ask them to take them back.

          I get a lot of misdelivered packages and mail (address is similar to an apartment building not in my neighborhood and I think my address auto-populates and people just go with it) and I find aggressively returning to sender is the best way to ameliorate the problem.

          1. It happened once in 4 1/2 years, and the lady is clearly a new mom. A few minutes to box it all up isn’t a big deal. I hope someone would extend me the same kindness, even though the world is not a kind place.

        3. As a new mom who makes plenty of mistakes (and is overwhelmed by the number of packages we get from very generous extended family), thank you.

  4. DH floated the idea of getting me a tennis bracelet for Christmas. I appreciate the thought, but think I want to get a less expensive version to see how much I actually would wear it before committing to the real thing. I did the same before getting a larger eternity band for an anniversary – I wanted to make sure it was actually comfortable on my finger. Does anyone have any good companies he should check out? Happy to spend a few hundred dollars on it, since I would probably eventually use this version for travel even in the event I did get a real diamond one.

    1. Why don’t you ask for jewelry you actually want instead of what he wants to get you?

      2. And perhaps DH is not an overbearing misogynist, but just a person trying to figure out a significant gift for a loved one, but without the benefit of an insightful message board like this.

        1. This. Good grief.
          OP, I’ve had good luck w moissaniteco.com – their stuff is really pretty and may obviate your need for the real thing.

    2. Highly recommend Agape diamonds. I wear my lab-created studs from there more often than my “real.”

  5. Does anyone have any recommendations for a book or a resource on how to speak effectively to stubborn elderly people who are beginning to have cognitive problems? Our communication strategies right now are simply not getting through and are making my family member even more stubborn. We are not sure of the reason for the cognitive problems because the family member refuses to see the doctor (behind on every preventative exam by about 20 years), but it’s clear we’re not making progress on that front and that our efforts are backfiring. Any ideas welcome. Thanks.

    1. This is a bit of a leap, but I do have a podcast recommendation. Backstory: my FIL was recently diagnosed with FTD, it’s a type of dementia. In FIL’s particular case has changed his behaviors and makes it difficult to carry a conversation with him. I’m not suggesting your family member has this type of dementia, it’s a pretty spooky condition. But I do listen to a podcast called “Remember Me” which helps me relate to others with family members that are hard to talk to and care for.

    2. You cannot effectively argue with someone with cognitive issues. You have to figure out how to do an end run around them, when it’s important and that’s possible. And when it’s not possible you will exist in a state of despair over your powerless. Ask me how I know.

      With that said, if their impairment is significant and obvious, and they have executed a durable power of attorney for healthcare, the person(s) named in that document can step in to make decisions, when the impaired person is in a healthcare setting. As to getting them into a healthcare setting, we had to wait for a crisis, at which time I had a police officer that I happen to know come talk to her. Contrary to all the stereotypes, he is an intelligent and polished person, and he charmed her into going to the hospital. Sometimes a third party that the impaired person has not already become weirdly suspicious of will have better luck than family members.

      1. This is really excellent advice.

        Many of us unfortunately navigate these roads the hard way, and often there isn’t an easy way.

        Since it sounds like part of the issue is your family member’s personality (ie. no medical care for 20 years? history of being stubborn), this will be difficult. You may have to accept that only once a crisis is reached (eg. a fall/illness/hospitalization…. worse…) will things change.

        Do you live nearby? I found the Alzheimer’s association support groups for caregivers/family to be amazing. You don’t have to have a family member with Alzheimer’s to attend, as often the issues are more universal. It is a great way to pick up tips. They may have remote support groups now. Great place to ask your questions and get recs. Also, they can recommend other local sources of support – Elder care attorneys, Department of Aging resources to sign up for (eg. Social worker comes to the home to make an assessment, set up free/subsidized services for your family member) and more.

        It can be difficult to tell an older family member what to do, even if you are the Power of Attorney. What are you going to do…. sedate them and tie them down to get them to go to the doctor? Of course not. Sometimes a 3rd party can be helpful — a different relative/old friend/neighbor can become an ally and help make “suggestions” or accompany your family member. Whenever possible, try to emphasize with how your family member feels…. reiterate how they feel back to them…. let them know you hear them.

        And make sure you don’t spend your limited time with them just taking care of them/telling them what to do. Often they are scared/depressed/feel disrespected and more…. so making it clear you still love, respect and value them can be incredibly important. I still ask my family member for “help” as much as is appropriate, and it strengthens our bond of trust.

    3. The 36 Hour Day isn’t specifically about communication problems but it is about working with people with Alzheimer’s or dementia generally and has very concrete tips so it may be helpful now and into the future.

      In googling to figure out the name of that book, it also came up with “ Hearing the Person With Dementia: Person-Centred Approaches to Communication for Families and Caregivers” and a couple reviews that said it’s helpful.

      Good luck. Cognitive issues and dementia are miserable to see happening over time.

    4. I think the root cause makes a huge difference here. Someone being hard of hearing versus having dementia or memory loss versus just being frustrated because of a (real or perceived) lack of autonomy are all going to require different tactics.

      We have gone through this with my grandmother, and it was ultimately due to a combination of hearing loss and her memory fading. Generally I think it’s important to respect their autonomy and feelings no matter how frustrating they might be, and to never talk about them in earshot as though they aren’t there (even if they can’t hear or understand you) or speak to them as though they’re a child. My mom especially would speak to her as though she were a child (“okay sweetie, it’s time to eat your lunch now”), and while she was well-intended, I don’t think my mom realized how patronizing she sounded until it was pointed out to her. It’s hard on everyone, especially when they won’t seek out medical help!

    5. Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the responses. This situation has been SO frustrating and causing so much stress for all involved. I’m dreading the next 20 years.

    6. There are therapists who specialize in helping caregivers manage the emotions and struggles that arise from caring for elderly relatives with cognitive impairments or memory loss. If your relative doesn’t have a doctor, maybe your own doctor can help you find one. In my case, the therapist was recommended by our relative’s doctor. Her advice is often the opposite of what my husband and I both thought would help, and we now understand more about why what we had been doing could be counter-productive. You cannot fix the elderly person’s cognitive issues, but you can change how you react to them.

  6. Christmas card dilemma: I am a card sender and have been my whole adult life. I enjoy the process of picking one out or designing it, and I already have the adorable family photos done! But I’m seriously considering skipping the whole thing this year. I am already stressed and overwhelmed, and I really don’t need another holiday project on my plate. That said, there are some family members (i.e., my elderly aunts and uncles and other assorted relatives) who are not on social media and I don’t get to see much anymore. If you were me, would you suck it up and send cards to 15-20 people? That’s not exactly moving the job off my plate, but it’s a reduction at least? IDK. Part of me thinks if I’m going to do some, I should just do the whole batch.

    I don’t know why I feel so bad about cutting off this tradition. Maybe because I actually do see the value in a yearly greeting, even in our very digital world. I know I like getting cards from others!

    1. If you have always done it, I would suck it up and do the most basic card you possibly can. The only reason I say that is because I’m coming out this from the perspective of worrying so much about the isolated elderly people in my life for whom a Christmas card might be the only contact they get that month. If the people in your life are not in that position, maybe it’s not so important.

      Also, maybe you’re at the phase where it’s just time to Do the Thing?

    2. Could you do minted where they print the envelopes for you? What about new year’s or valentine’s cards and you can address them at a quiet period? Or just get a generic card and stick a photo of your family in.

      1. +1, I debated it this year too but Minted makes it super easy. (It’s a great repeat customer trick too, because every year I only need to update any addresses that have changed.)

      2. This is what I do, Minted now owns my holiday card business but they make it so easy. It’s also early right now, give yourself permission to send cards all the way to Valentine’s Day – I’m guessing at some point between now and then, there will be a weekend where you feel like doing something holiday ish, and getting cards together will feel fun. I always smile as I stuff the envelopes and write notes to people I love.

      3. +1 I saw Minted also has an option this year where you can text them a photo and they kick back 5 design recommendations based on your photo for free. Between that and using pre-addressed envelopes. They are really making holiday cards fairly “easy”.

    3. Seems like you’re stuck in a “all or nothing” mode. Why not just do the low-effort, who-cares mode and do a few cards in the simplest way possible?

      if you’re a holiday perfectionist, doing “low-effort, incomplete, and imperfect” might come near to killing you, but . . . it will make your life easier. Don’t, whatever you do, get sucked into doing the entire project for the entire list in the whole-hog way you’ve done it in previous years. You can pick that up again some future year if you want, but it sounds like this isn’t the year for it.

    4. If you have/ can get the addresses on an Excel chart, Shutterfly will print the addresses and even send them if you pay extra. Alternately, if you happen to have an admin and are in a business development role, add in some friendly business contacts like former colleagues, call it networking, and delegate? I always do the cards myself, but the year I returned from mat leave after having twins, I was so overwhelmed that I took that approach and asked my law firm admin to handle the address labels. I felt so awkward asking but she was thrilled to do it.

      1. +1. Usually I hand address and include little notes or greetings. This year, I uploaded the addresses to Shutterfly and had them send on my behalf. I got the fun of picking out and designing, and only had to stress for one hour texting people on Saturday to ask for new addresses. I made all the updates I received by Monday evening and then sent out. This might be my new method.

    5. Do it all or don’t do it. Otherwise you’re doing most of the work (designing) but for only a fraction of the result. I love getting cards from others – it’s one of the highlights of our season.

    6. If it were me, I would do the whole thing (it’s a lot of work for 15-20 cards) and employ Minted to print all the addresses for me. I would also ask your partner to handle childcare (or whatever) while you get it done. I try to make it a nice, “cozy” job – I do it while watching a holiday movie or listening to Christmas music….maybe with some coffee and Baileys. And I will definitely send my husband and child out of the house on some errand while I put everything together this year. LOL.

      1. Came here to say this. Minted is the best. I use recipient address printing, and then I have a return address stamp for myself. Also, it sounds like this is a tradition you actually enjoy. Is there something else you can skip this year that you don’t like as much to free up some capacity?

    7. I send New Year’s cards and work on them when I am off work between Christmas and New Year’s. I assume as long as they arrive in January they are on time enough. My aunt and uncle do Valentines.

      1. +1

        We’re DINKs who live far from family and old friends, and we send a photo card. We love to wish others a happy new year and share a bit of what made our last one special.

      2. Exactly what I was going to recommend. So long as it gets sent in January, I think you’re good!

    8. If you have the photos already send one that’s good enough rather than picking out the right one. I have a card company print and mail them, though many people here will say that that’s a faux pas. I think it’s fine though not to write a personalized note in each card.

      1. If that’s a faux pas, I don’t want to be right. Totally agree it’s fine not to write a note!

      2. I don’t think it’s a faux pas. I get a couple of dozen cards a year and none have personalized handwritten messages. I enjoy seeing the pics of friends’ kids and pets because I’m not on social media.

      3. +1, only 2-3 of the people we receive cards from do anything handwritten! If your choice is “EZ card” or no card (given the time required for handwritten notes), EZ Card is clearly the winner.

    9. I have handwritten Christmas cards to a pretty big list of recipients since high school. Last year I just wasn’t feeling the spirit, so I only sent cards to my grandparents and other elderly relatives who aren’t on social media. You do not need to send out cards for the sake of tradition. If you can swing it, I would suggest sending something to the elderly relatives who will really appreciate it – even if it’s just a Hallmark card from the drug store instead of the printed family photo.

    10. I often feel this way about the holiday card project, but after the fact I’m happy to have done it. It’s never as much work as I feel like it will be and it means I maintain the network of more distant, easily lost social relationships for another year. I truly like getting cards from others, and so I send them myself, to keep that network going. Only you know, but if you’re like me you’ll be happy you did it.

    11. I send cards and it’s hard to know when to stop. This topic has come up here before and there were a bunch of grinches who thought that if I didn’t take the time to write a personalized long form note to each recipient I shouldn’t bother, but in real life I get a lot of comments throughout the year that people liked the card, so I keep sending it. It’s my two kids and our dog, I don’t overthink the design (seriously it takes 20 min to order it max) and then when the envelopes and cards come I dread addressing them (which I do by hand) until I actually do it. It usually takes me one coffee-fueled weekend morning after breakfast and then I’m done.

      My daughter has been helping address the cards since she has been old enough to have really legible writing so that helps, and everyone helps to seal the envelopes and stick on stamps.

      But honestly, don’t do it if you don’t want to do it. I absolutely love receiving my family’s and friends’ cards, but unless you were my sister, I wouldn’t acutely notice if you didn’t send one.

    12. I would do it, especially for elderly relatives not on social media. At least in my family, they appreciate it, even if it’s just a mass-printed photo design from Minted or similar services.

      Don’t have to get it in by Christmas, could do it as a New Year’s card and send it in early/mid-Jan instead.

    13. Tons of good thoughts here. But I skipped one year (my dad died, I got married and started fertility treatments: it was just a lot), and then picked right back up the next year. If you decide it’s too much this year, that is ok! It also doesn’t mean you have to be done forever. Even the Olympics skipped a year. And off I go to minted! Love this site.

    14. I would just do the simplest design you can and send out. I use SimplytoImpress (I actually think the name of the business is a little weird as I do not send out holiday cards to impress but to just keep in touch and actually have them remove the logo/website from the back of the card). Last year b/c of the pandemic, I actually had them just mail it directly and I don’t think it cost more (just the cost of the stamp itself) and I was shocked at how quickly people got their cards. It’s way easier than stuffing and mailing and stamping yourself (I also like to stamp a little message like happy holidays and happy new year) and while I love doing those things around the holidays, having someone else stuff and mail it was so much easier that I’m going that route again. But if you want to skip it altogether, that’s also fine too. Just do whatever is easiest!!!

  7. I have the blues today, can we do a bit of positivity? What is making your life better right now?
    Aldi dark chocolate truffles, white pitaya tea, and Calendy which is saving me like 30 emails a week at the moment.

    1. Down Dog yoga and the Smitten Kitchen YouTube videos. And my best friend is having a baby!

    3. Unlimited lattes from my espresso maker and a bag of homemade muffins that I forgot about and discovered in the freezer. Uitwaaien (walking in the wind) with my dog. Revenge bedtime procrastination with my favorite old sitcom, even though it leaves me tired the next day. A long chat this weekend with my awesome SILs.

      1. Uitwaaien! I cycled into the wind (and uphill) today and got to feel really fast en route home with the wind at my back.

      1. The day I stopped BFing was one of the best days of my life. A close second was the day we finally got rid of all the baby bottles!

    5. A friend who randomly sent flowers to me yesterday; they’re all yellow and white and very bright and happy in my kitchen, which is near my desk. Trader Joes hot chocolate with caramel that is only sold this time of the year; I bought 6 containers this year. Warmer weather projected for this weekend. My office announcing it is closing at noon next Wednesday.

    6. Go for a walk, particularly where you might see dogs. When I’m down, seeing dogs reminds me that my concerns are totally incomprehensible to a dog and that they don’t care about the ways in which I find myself lacking. They just want a scrich and a pet.

      1. My office is next to a dog park and I often take a break and walk over there when I am having a bad day. Everyone looks at the crazy lady with no dog like I am going to steal there dog. Other than the odd looks, it helps me more than anything else.

    7. The four-day weekend in a cabin in the middle of nowhere with two of my childhood BFFs, even if I have to drive five hours tomorrow to get there! My horses. The polo lessons I started taking this year – galloping around and whacking a ball is an amazing stress reliever!

      1. Ooh, would you be willing to further brighten everyone’s day by sharing a link for the recipe?

    10. Knitting an ugly holiday sweater for my dog for a dog party. A sentence I never could have predicted it write.

    12. I just wrapped up a HUGE project after an absolutely insane (although very good for my career) couple of months and am now on the downslope toward maternity leave. I’m also very excited for a low key Thanksgiving with my husband.

    13. Buying holiday gifts always perks me up. Especially this time of year, when I am not super stressed and last minute shopping. Also: iced coffee, hot tea, and listening to my favorite podcasts while walking the dog. Before Breakfast is a quick, easy one. I also love Hardcore History.

    14. Daily exercise, SAD lights, putting up white holiday lights and the Peloton app for cycling, yoga and weightlifting.

    15. Those amazing salted chocolate caramels from Costco.

      They’re on sale this month.

      They send TWO containers!

      I’m eating one right now. Well, maybe not one….

  8. I posted recently asking for opinions on Modern Citizen clothing, and based on the feedback here ordered the Lenese wrap-front dress. I’m wearing it today and I think I love it! The fabric is a soft, stretchy, substantial-feeling sweater knit. One thing I wasn’t expecting is that the top is a true wrap, but there’s a hook and eye sewn into the top of the v neckline for security (Would actually be great for nursing/pumping!) and the portions that wrap are wide enough that I have no fear of weird skin exposure. I’m wearing with black tights and black ankle boots with a slightly moto/cowboy vibe, and it’s perfect for my business casual office. I can also see it as a good casual holiday party dress. It’s really comfortable!

    1. Sadly, all of the dresses that interest me would be flapping at my ankles. This does not look like a line that is workable for short women.

      1. I’m 5’4″, and the dress is on the longer side of midi on me, but hits at a flattering point IMO. I’d estimate 6″ below my kneecaps.

      2. So hem it then? Most companies are not going tailor a product in such a way that it would be unwearable for the majority of shoppers.

  9. I’m considering an offer from a company that has one PTO bank. 20 days total to start, which feels like too little. Only 10 days can roll over year to year. I have 2 small kids who get daycare germs and need doctor appointments. Am currently in the public sector where I have built up 3 months of sick time and have nearly 5 weeks of vacation annually (up to 3 weeks can roll over). I think I can negotiate on the combined PTO but not sure what the right number is — maybe 30 days total? If your company uses one PTO bank, what happens if you have a serious medical issue? As it is, I feel like one case of breakthrough Covid for 2-3 weeks would mean I couldn’t take a summer vacation and have a week off at Christmas. The money is much better but I’m concerned about the leave situation.

    1. I’ve never had a job that allowed PTO negotiation, and I’m 20+ years into my career. Base salary, TC, bonus, title, vesting, all of it has been on the table–but you get what you get when it comes to time off. Does the 20 include holidays?

      1. I negotiated an extra week of vacation time at a small law firm. I was coming from Big law which has fairly generous PTO (on paper anyway) and they matched it. I don’t think it’s unheard of.

      2. Even if negotiation is allowed, I’d be worried that there isn’t a culture that allows you to really take the amount of time you want off. It’s not really a vacation if you’re working from somewhere else, especially while trying to manage kids who are disappointed that you’re working through vacation.

    2. I would try to negotiate what you get in a year at your current job. I’m a fed, so I get 6 hours of vacation leave per pay period (18 days total) and 4 hours of sick leave per pay period (12 days total). So, if it’s me – I’d ask for at least 30 days total. Of course, at my job – you can carry over 30 days of vacation year to year and sick leave never goes away. So…if you think only being able to roll over 10 days per year is going to be an issue – I’d ask for more up front.

      Do they have short term disability coverage? That wouldn’t fix a Covid quarantine, but it would help to handle having to take unpaid leave for a serious medical issue.

      1. +1 — STD will cover 60% of my salary (unfortunately no stock) if I have to do a chemo that means I can’t work. Results next week from the biopsy redo!

    3. 20 days PTO is pretty normal in the private sector. Most places will try and work with you if something catastrophic happens. Sure, ask for 30 days. But realistically this is market and if you want a private sector job you need to expect it.

      1. And this is why I’m staying in the public sector!

        I’ll take my 3 weeks vacation, 3 weeks sick and 12 holidays over a combined leave bank any day.

        1. Yeah there are a lot of things I hate about higher ed but I can’t see myself ever walking away from my unlimited sick leave and 5 weeks of vacation annually. It’s worth it’s weight in gold especially if you have kids or long distance family. If only I had 10 vacation days, I would spend it all visiting family and would never take real vacations.

          1. I am a firm believer that there are money jobs (like pay you more but no PTO and insurance costs $$$) and perk jobs (govt, etc. where there are Cadillac benefits that are free or very low cost). There is no job with both high pay and that sort of benefits.

            TBH, when my kids were daycare age, I just WFH those days since production had to churn on and when they were little, they napped a ton when sick and when they were older, they could just be plopped in front of the TV. Not ideal, but I didn’t have any problems not being present in the office due to sick kids. We have no concept of sick leave or vacation, just production quotas (billed hours for junior people, collections for senior people).

          2. The thing is that my kids are never actually that sick when they have to stay home. Especially now with Covid where a runny nose keeps them home. But even before Covid it would often be like they get a fever at school on Wed get set home, go to bed early, wake up fine on Thursday but can’t go to school because of the 24 hour fever rule. So then Thurs is “working” with a healthy kid who is bouncing off the walls.
            I agree taking care of sick kids is pretty easy. But it’s a lot harder when they’re basically healthy but still considered too sick for school.

      2. Yeah, i get 20 and struggle to use it. I also have a pretty flexible schedule and understanding boss, though, so a big piece of it is that I don’t have to use PTO if I’m ducking out early for a doctor’s appt or feel not great but can do some work from home.

        1. Do you have kids? I don’t know any parent that would struggle to use 20 days if their kids’ sick days counted against that.

          1. Unless you have an in-person job (doing cancer infusions, dentist), most jobs let parents WFH these days. Some parents are good and responsive and its not a big deal and some are . . . not. Those tend to be bad in-office employees, so it’s not a surprise really.

        2. I am public sector and losing (or donating if a colleague needs it) 25 days next month that I cannot carryover because I am maxed out on that. I feel you on struggling to be able to use it, and this year has been especially difficult because younger coworkers have been on parental leave (and I want to support them in that). All my sick leave carries over.

      3. +1, I just got an offer from a tech company and it’s 15 days vacation, 7 days sick leave (plus all the usual holidays and four floating holidays). Not even close to what I was earning as a Fed, but from what I understand this is pretty typical.

      4. +1 I’ve had varying success negotiating but 20 days is pretty standard for the private industry. All firms I’ve worked with have a rigid seniority/year with the company chart that they go by. The only flexibility is whether they take into account your years elsewhere. I had a firm that wanted to start me at 3 weeks despite mine having had 5 weeks at the previous firm. PTO is high priority for me so I said no thanks.

    4. No real advice, but I think unfortunately while 20 days total is on the lower end, it’s not at all unusual for corporate jobs in the US even now. My last company did 25 days and it was viewed as pretty generous. I think you’ll have a tough time negotiating up to 30 days.

      I would also weigh how flexible the job is. What will remote work options look like after they return to office? Is there day-to-day flexibility where you could be off for a few hour in the morning and make it up in the evening?

    5. I can’t even relate to having 4 weeks of leave, much less 3+ months. I am taking tomorrow off for the holidays total (other than days the office is closed) and i last took a vacation in 2017. But if you are going to feel smothered by this arrangement, you should certainly negotiate based on what you have now. Congratulations!

      1. She said the 3+ months is sick leave, not vacation. No one uses all of it unless you have a special situation like cancer. I’m in the public sector too and I technically have like 4 months of sick leave a year. But I never use anywhere near that much and a doctors note would definitely be expected for anyone who was taking more than the occasional sick day. I am grateful for it, should I need it, but it’s not a benefit anyone wants to use.

    6. You’re right to be concerned. I have a combined PTO bank too and I believe it discriminates against people with kids (I don’t have kids, btw) and people with disabilities or chronic illnesses. Those people all deserve vacation time too, but they can’t get any if they need to use their only available paid time for doctor’s appointments and illnesses. Companies should have unlimited sick leave (with an eventual switch to disability if needed) and a generous vacation bank. Anyone who abuses the sick leave policy can be dealt with individually.

      1. +1 million. I hate combined leave. Agree sick leave should be unlimited – it is not a choice to get sick or have sick family members. I actually prefer finite but generous vacation leave because infinite vacation often leads to a culture where no one takes vacation.

        1. Sick leave gets abused though. Spouse’s job has sick leave as a concept and a lot of people (generally younger, which is odd, as that group tends to be healthier) just call out when unwell. Meanwhile, a guy with early ALS and a guy with advanced cancer are still completely productive. So, b/c of abuse, there are limits. B/c I see the abuse and it disrupts the ability of the worker bees to work at what should be a reasonable pace.

          3. This is an ignorant comment. Acute infections can cause cognitive symptoms that impair ability to work, and they’re contagious which means it’s socially responsible to stay home from the office.

          4. There are ways to prevent abuse, like requiring doctors notes if leave exceeds a certain amount. That’s what my job does and it seems to work pretty well. The only people I know who took extended leave did so for surgery or something like that.

          5. I would say (OP on the “unwell”) that they are just calling out and saying something vague as cover, but basically calling out in a way that seems abusive (like a childless 20-something using all 20 days but a person who is older, possibly with kids or a chronic illness or a surgery uses far less each year).

            Or, TLDR, bad employees are bad employees, and are the one making sick leave more complicated for everyone (like having to have a doctor’s note when you have a stomach virus — no doctor wants you throwing up in the waiting room b/c you’re not there for any legit medical care but just need a note for work). Abusive people ruin it for everyone.

          6. But you can’t see illness. A childless 20-something may have a chronic health issue you don’t know about. Weird take to assume these people are “abusing” the system instead of just taking sick leave they need.

          7. Most disabilities are invisible. You’d never know I have one by looking at me, but it doesn’t mean that you can make assumptions about how much sick time you think I “should” be taking. Employers need to butt out, honestly. If performance goals aren’t being met, that’s a separate conversation. I could do all my work and then some at a high level even if I took 3x as much sick leave as I do right now.

          8. Childless 20-somethings can have health issues and caregiving responsibilities you know nothing about.
            PTO is part of my compensation. I’m allowed to use it.

          9. Also I hate that the employees with ALS and cancer are still working so hard, probably to maintain health coverage.

          10. Jeez “Advanced cancer… still completely productive” in one sentence makes me so sad.

          11. Yeah, if the sick leave is available, I see no problem with people taking it. Meanwhile the guys with ALS and cancer are still working every day because that’s the messed-up “suck it up” culture they came up in. I feel sorry for them.

    7. Depending on company size, PTO probably isn’t fully negotiable in the sense of asking for a custom number of days. But, if time off grows with time at the company, you may be able to negotiate to move to the next tier right away (eg if the bank starts at 20 days but at 2 years of service you get 25).

      I’d also ask about if’s it’s expected to take sick or leave for dr appts; many places I’ve worked have salaried people use leave only for full or half days, so appointments don’t require using time off – this convo may also help you understand the company’s butt in seats culture or lack thereof, and that impacts the need for leave as well.

      1. That’s a great point about doctor appointments, thank you. They take all federal holidays off which helps, and there are 4 or 5 different tiers of leave depending on seniority so I think I will aim higher and hope for the best. I’m more than 20 years into my career which is how I have so much leave built up at my current place — I hoped to never need it but it was nice to know that if I had a major medical issue I could just use that leave and not have to try to navigate STD at the same time.

    8. Sometimes companies let you start short term disability if you have over 5(Ish) sick days in a row. There’s a million ways to run a STD program (start on day 1, or 5 or anything) so I can’t give you more, but worth asking about.

      I had a joint bucket and it was stressful pre-kids and post-kids would be hesitant.

    9. This would be a dealbreaker for me for the reasons you mentioned. I have one kid in daycare and regularly (even pre Covid) use 10-15 sick days per year between me and my kid. I would never take vacations if I had 20 combined days.

    10. How do they handle sick time – do they expect you to take it from your PTO?
      I work at a Fortune 50 company that has no sick time for salaried roles – you’re just out until you or your kid is better. PTO is for vacation, not for being sick. It’s one reason why I’ve stayed for 10yrs especially while my kids are little and in daycare – not having to worry about my time off due to illness is amazing.

    11. I get 18 days of PTO, divided into 12 days of vacation and 6 sick days. We can only roll over 3 vacation days, no sick leave. Honestly, the only way I can manage it is that DH is a SAHD, so I really only need to take sick leave for myself, for a major thing like my kid having surgery, or if DH is too sick to take care of my kid.

      And I still feel like I don’t get enough vacation.

        2. Really? 12 days is 1 day more than I have ever taken in a year, and that was a real anomaly. I am so shocked by this discussion. Don’t get me wrong, I am all for the generous European and Canadian leave systems, but I did not know people in the U.S. were routinely out for a whole month or more (collectively) in a year. No wonder everyone on this board is constantly panicked about what trip to plan next .

          1. In the US and I’ve never seen anyone take a month totally off. WFH or work from the beach, yes. But not unplugged for a month. This isn’t Europe! Kidding. At most, DC staffer friends used to be able to take a lot of August off, but that was b/c their bosses were off or away in their home districts or there was a congressional recess.

          2. “Vacation” leave is not just vacations though – it’s daycare/school closures, and visiting family and celebrating religious holidays and taking care of non-medical things that have to be done during business hours. If I had 12 days I would probably literally never take a vacation because all that other stuff would eat it up.

          4. I have an 11YO and a 13YO and just WFH when school is closed. For over a decade, it has not been a big deal. I guess b/c when I WFH, I have enough of a track record that it’s not questioned whether or not I will actually be working. It’s not awesome for my kids (can’t go to the zoo during the weekdays unless I take a day during their vacations), but it has kept a roof over their heads.

          5. Yeah. I was including that. I don’t have kids and consider visiting family a vacation (though agree it is not restorative or relaxing!) Holidays are separate and observed when and if the office is closed. I don’t do religion. I guess I travel on a real vacation about every 5 years. The last one was 2 work days and a long holiday weekend. Once I took 5 days. Once 10. I have planned other trips but always canceled at the last minute so I just stopped planning them. Coverage for my job has never existed in any way so it is pointless. And I’ve never actually gotten the break between jobs I asked for, even a day. I don’t begrudge anyone their leave time, I guess this is just eye-opening for me.

          6. I get 15 days PTO for vacation and 6 days for personal time and I use every single minute every year. Ours is use it or lose it and I will not allow this benefit to go unused.

          7. If your office is closed for your holidays, consider yourself lucky. I’m Jewish and have never worked at a company that gives employees time off for Passover or Rosh Hashanah. I’m not religious in the sense of believing in Gd, but being with family on our two major holidays is important to me. I also know many people need to use a vacation day or two around Easter since it’s now pretty rare in the US to have time off for that.

    12. This is one reason I don’t want to leave government. I have 5 weeks vacation and I don’t even know how much sick leave. On the other hand, many of my friends in the private sector have a week off at Christmas and July 4th because the company is just closed. I would check on that. On the 3rd hand, most of my private sector friends don’t have off for veterans day, indigenous people’s day, etc, when schools are closed.

    13. I would talk to the hiring manager about this to understand culture. I have never had more than 20 PTO days and I have never used all of them. I have 3 kids that were germy nightmares in daycare.

      My boss was fine if DH and I both WFH’d and split sick kid duty. I only rarely had to take a true PTO day due to a sick kid, or even a sick myself.

    14. DH is in the private sector and gets 25 vacation days + 8 sick days per year. They can only roll over 5 days per year, but still has been plenty. And he is supposed to be off today since we are moving but of course his deal got pushed back from last week…

    15. My last company had 120 hours of combined sick/vacation PTO. The main reasons it was horrible: (1) it operated on an accrual system, and (2) we had a company-wide shutdown between Christmas and New Year’s every year for which we were required to burn PTO.

      The shutdown meant that we effectively got 80-90 hours of PTO every year to use as we pleased.

      The accrual system was scary in the sense that I felt the need to always have a 40 hour buffer in case I got sick (short term disability would kick in after that), and I got pregnant about six months after I started, so it was basically no vacation (outside of Christmas to New Year’s) for three years.

      We could work from home when sick; the downside is that I worked from home when sick. The burnout was real.

      Four weeks of leave would have been manageable.

      1. That stinks about the PTO! One of the things that I really love about my job is that we are also closed between Christmas and New Years and not required to use PTO. And we’re closed-closed, so you don’t come back to an avalanche of emails from your workaholic boss (like Old Job).

    16. The way this often works is that you WFH as much as possible while sick or home with sick kids and don’t claim PTO on sick days, then keep the 20 days for vacation.

      2. Still means you can’t take any vacation in a year where you or anyone in your family gets hit with a health issue that actually requires time off.

        1. That is what STD is for, although it only works for your own illness. You may not have to burn all your PTO before it kicks in.

          1. Isn’t that only for really major things like surgery or cancer? Like if you get a breakthrough Covid case that makes you feel like crap for two weeks can you really go on STD?

    17. I worked for a company like this and the PTO was negotiable but maxed out at 20. Entry level oriole started at 5! It was very, very difficult, and my kids were older and could stay home alone unless they were very, very sick. Don’t do it!

    18. I am in the private sector and have 10 days vacation and 5 sick days a year and 8 federal holidays and it is next to impossible even without kids. Like others said, the only way this works is that you go to your appointments without claiming time off and just start early or stay late as needed. Our leave goes up by 5 additional days every 5 years of seniority, so I’m just hanging on by a thread until I get up to the 20 that you are looking at (only 2.5 more years to go)!

      And I tried to negotiate PTO but got no traction with that. Definitely try, but keep your expectations in check. I would seriously reconsider taking the offer in your shoes.

    19. If you’ve already negotiated salary and other benefits, and PTO is one more area to try to put yourself in a better position, I support asking for the amount of PTO you would have if you had been with that company for the duration of your career. I did this when I changed jobs a few years ago, and received the highest tier for PTO. I think I have around 30 days. Negotiate now – sometimes there’s more flexibility in the hiring process that will go away once you’re fully onboarded. I have not always used the full amount of my PTO but I’m glad it’s there in the event of illness (for me, or to care for my spouse or my child) and so that my vacations can be long enough to really disconnect.

  10. How awful is it to resign/ leave an employer mid-project? This is a multi year project that had an additional year baked into this due to Covid. I’m really happy at my job but received a job offer that I really don’t want to decline, for many personal reasons (better work-life balance, benefits, long term growth). I like and respect my colleagues and want to leave in the best possible way. I think they will be shocked that I’m leaving.

    1. Not awful, just normal. There is no perfect time to change jobs. Let yourself feel your feelings, but advance your own career/life.

    2. It’s literally not an issue at all congratulations get your ducks in a row make sure your offer is final and quit.

    4. No matter when you leave, it’s always going to be in the middle of one project or another.

      Your employer wouldn’t hesitate to lay you off in the middle of a project if that suited its needs.

    5. I suppose might depend on your industry but I am a lawyer and there is no way to avoid leaving mid-case – there is simply no point at which everything on every matter will be done, unless you are the extremely rare person who has one gigantic trial at a time. The best you can do is give lead time and be organized on your way out.

      1. +1

        I work on 5+ projects at a time, all at varying stages. It would be almost impossible for me not to leave my job mid-project. If you want the new job, you should take it.

    6. You’re hopefully always going to be in the middle of something unless you’re about to get laid off – why would it be awful to resign?

    7. Normal, fine, don’t think twice about it. If you’re feeling guilt, your departure could be a big opportunity for someone else.

      1. +1. My boss just got a promotion and I’m gearing up to take on a lot of her responsibilities. Put yourself first and take the job you want!

  11. I am about to move to a new job in 3 weeks and really want to start afresh and not a do-over of my current situation, where essentially I kept getting all the hard work of doing things but someone else always was the “thunder” or even I was leading a project somehow last moment it was someone else’s efforts. I got good reviews though consistently but guess I’m not as type A and more of a do-the-work than network/talk big internally. I work in tech and everything in my role is tech work and internal communications. Please give me all your tips to how to be seen more of the “lead” than just the person everyone goes to for getting the work done and then claiming credit. Other general new job tips or lessons also appreciated.

    1. Learn to toot your own horn – talk your project lead status up at meetings, volunteer for brown bags, etc. Maybe find a mentor.

    2. I’m also in tech and as the other comment said, you have to toot your own horn. Definitely mention what you accomplished in status and team meetings. I post updates to the team-wide slack whenever I make something that others on the team would find helpful. Go out of your way to format or organize things, and then present it. Find opportunities to talk to other teams about your work – present your work back to the actual team that is benefitting for it, don’t let a middleman do that. Be prepared during 1-on-1s and have lists of what you completed. Don’t be hesitant to say “I wrote the code to . . ” instead of “We worked on X project”.

  12. My in-laws asked us last night to either not come for Thanksgiving, or to not have our five year old visit my parents the few days before, since my parents are unvaccinated and my just-turned-5 year old has only had her first shot. Their thinking is why should they be at risk because my parents refuse to be vaccinated?

    I get their frustration with my parents’ refusal to be vaccinated, but at what point do you accept this is just where we are in the pandemic? My husband is irritated and threatening to cancel all visits with family for the week because of the shenanigans both sides are pulling.

    1. I don’t blame your in-laws at all. I’m surprised you are spending time with your unvaccinated parents. That is incredibly risky.

      1. +1. If you’re OK with her seeing your unvaxxed parents, that’s fine, but it seems like you’re also OK with putting your vaccinated ILs at risk and it is totally within their rights (and appropriate) for them to say “no”

      2. This. So terrible of you to see your unvaxxed parents before seeing your in-laws. How is this a question.

    2. I think they are well within their rights to limit their exposure. Maybe you can see them at Christmas after your kid is fully vaccinated?
      Why aren’t your parents getting vaccinated? You’re obviously comfortable exposing your kid to them, but then you have to be able to handle the consequences of it. This wouldn’t be an issue if your parents would get their shots.

      2. Honestly, I don’t think your in-laws are off base here. Can you flip the order and see them before seeing your parents?

        2. Yes this. If you aren’t willing to encourage your parents to get vaccinated by limiting their contact with your vulnerable child who may spread it to other vulnerable children at her school.

          1. OP and people like her are exactly why kid is staying home from school the week after Thanksgiving.

        3. For love of all that is good and holy, why not just visit the unvaxxed people last if you must visit them at all? Flip the order and it should be fine.

          Your ILs are not wrong.

    3. I’m with your in-laws. We aren’t visiting family for Christmas because logistics mean that no one will be able to quarantine for any period of time before we get there, and even though they are all vaccinated, our toddler is not. I’m too concerned about breakthrough cases to take the risk.

    4. The only issue I have with his parents is just raising this now, assuming they already knew your parents weren’t vaccinated and that you were planning to visit them days before.

      You never just accept this. It’s not forever, your child will be fully vaccinated by Christmas. She can either skip this one visit to your parents and you can go alone, or you can all skip. Idk why his family should suffer because yours is irresponsible.

      1. I feel for them. We decided last year not to go to my parents for Thanksgiving on literally Wednesday, although we gave them a heads up on Tuesday. It felt fine (or I was trying to make it feel fine) until it didn’t. I’m glad we didn’t. Now, everyone is vaccinated (except my 8 year old who only has one shot), and we are able to gather.

    5. They’re cautious but that’s fine. I don’t think they need to accept that this is where they are in the pandemic and assume unwanted risk. Your kid will receive a second dose by the next holiday. It’s so close! It’ll be better soon! FWIW I would just skip your parents or tell them they have to be visited second.

    6. “At what point do you accept this is just where we are in the pandemic?” There is a difference between deciding for yourself to accept a risk that cannot be mitigated and forcing someone else to accept a completely avoidable risk. You are trying to do the latter. Your in-laws are entirely reasonable not to want to be exposed indoors for an extended period of time to a child who is not fully vaccinated and who has spent time with vaccine refusers. If your in-laws are willing to see your child if she doesn’t visit your unvaccinated parents, it seems like a no-brainer–just don’t visit your parents. Your parents are the ones making the wrong choice here and should be the ones to bear the consequences.

      1. And your parents behavior is how the pandemic keeps going. They shouldn’t be interacting with anyone. Time for the unvaxxed to stay the F home.

        1. And your parents behavior is how the pandemic keeps going. They shouldn’t be interacting with anyone. Time for the unvaxxed to stay the F home.

    7. I’m with your in laws on this one. The consequences for a COVID infection are just higher for older people.

      I also don’t take my kids indoors around maskless unvaccinated people. Easy line to draw, and it think it was one of the main reasons my in laws got vaccinated.

    8. Could you offer to do rapid tests on Thanksgiving as a compromise? Or visit your parents after Thanksgiving?

      I don’t think your in-laws are being nuts; my understanding is that vaccinated grandparents are statistically at higher risk of serious illness than unvaccinated kids.

      1. yes this. The risk of serious consequences (hospitalizations/deaths) from a breakthrough infection are really age skewed towards older peoplel

      2. Yes, statistically vaccination takes ~40 years off your age as far as risk of death goes. So vaxxed 70 year olds are same risk as unvaxxed 30 year olds and far higher risk than unvaxxed kids.

      1. This. There are “shenanigans” happening but they are all on the part of your parents. And maybe you. Not your in-laws.

    10. Your in laws are reasonable. Your parents are unreasonable. You seem a little bit oblivious to this. Perhaps you are suffering from pandemic burnout and that’s why. But you need to take a step back and give this situation an objective, dispassionate assessment.

    11. If I was grandparent age I’d make the same request your in-laws are making! I have no time for those refusing to get vaccinated and would absolutely want to limit my exposure.

      If I were them I’d be fine seeing your daughter normally, but not right after she sees her unvaccinated grandparents. If I were you, I don’t think I’d let my not yet fully vaccinated kid see my unvaxxed parents.

      If you’re determined to see everyone, see your in laws on Thursday and your parents over the following weekend

      For reference I’m not overly cautious. In situations where everyone is vaccinated I’m very very lax – basically as soon as I got my second shot I was back to eating indoors, for example.

      1. Same here, and I completely agree with you. I have no tolerance for the unvaccinated either.

    12. While fully accepting that you likely can’t change your parents’ minds about vaccinating, I am on the side of your in-laws, here. If they’re older, they’re at risk if they pick up an infection from your kid (or you! It is still possible for vaccinated people to transmit the virus). We are not having family holidays this year because three of my cousins refuse to be vaccinated and the older members of the family (70+) don’t want to put themselves at risk because these three people are pigheaded. Everyone took sides and so – no family Thanksgiving or Christmas. The “point we’re at in the pandemic” is that everyone needs to live with the consequences of their actions. You need to live with yours and your parents need to live with theirs. If your husband wants to pull the plug on all family visits, to me that seems like penalizing his parents for wanting to do the right thing, but that is his right. Might make for less stress on everyone to go that route.

    13. You know what? I bet if you refused to see your parents unless they got vaccinated, they’d get vaccinated.

      1. This!! I know several people who got their parents to agree to get vaccinated this way. There should be consequences for their terrible choices.

    14. But this isn’t “where are in the pandemic.” We have a vaccine. Your parents are choosing to live like it’s 2020 and that’s on them; of course people don’t want to join them!

      1. Right, this. If your vaccinated in laws were refusing to interact with other vaccinated people, your comment would make sense. We have a vaccine and now there’s nothing left to wait for. But refusing to interact with the unvaccinated is entirely reasonable! They are old and high risk and your parents are being selfish and irresponsible.

      2. Yup. Where we are in the pandemic is that everyone over age 5 should be vaccinated. People who choose not to be vaccinated do not get to demand that they be allowed to expose others.

    15. Your in-laws are right. Talk to your parents. Either see your parents after your inlaws, or skip one side.

      You may consider asking your parents to rapid test but IMO unless they have a medical reason, they should be vaccinated and they should list out if they chose not to be.

      I’m sure it is heartbreaking for your ILs to even ask this of you. I am positive they want to see your kiddo.

    17. I understand your frustration. Your in-laws are already protected and can spread it as much as your own parents. It also feels like a reach to worry about your child visiting your parents–at the very least, it would seem like a simple covid test of your child before she is around your in-laws should suffice.

      However, peoples’ vaccination choices are their own, and it sounds like both sets of parents likely understand the consequences of their choices. Your in-laws understand that it is possible that they may not enjoy your company at Thanksgiving, and your parents understand that it is possible that they may not be able to enjoy a visit from their grandchild. Sad.

      1. It’s not accurate that vaccinated people are just as likely to spread COVID as vaccinated people. They’re less likely to catch it in the first place. Her parents have chosen to take on unnecessary risk both for themselves and for everyone who interacts with them.

        1. They’re just as likely to catch it in the first place. But their symptoms won’t be as severe.

          2. No, that’s not accurate. They are less likely to become infected in the first place. This is very clear, even with the Delta variant.

          3. Even without boosters, the efficacy of the mRNA vaccines is over 50%. That means unvaccinated are at least twice as likely to catch it. Boosters restore efficacy against infection above 95%.

          5. Both vaccinated and unvaccinated people are equally likely to “catch” COVID. The vaccine gives you several types of immunity. Mucosal immunity basically stops the virus from entering the body. Systemic immunity fights the virus once it enters the body. Systemic immunity is stronger (and longer-lasting) than mucosal immunity. The vaccine imparts both types.

      2. What you’re saying is not true and you’re misunderstanding the news about how the virus is spread. It is spreading in unvaccinated communities and there are breakthrough infections in vaccinated communities when they cross with the unvaccinated communities.

    19. I’m with your in-laws. My family is not inviting unvaxxed-but-eligible relatives to Thanksgiving. (No, they don’t have any risk factors for the shot, they just think essential oils are medicine.)

    20. I’m sorry you’re going through this. Breakthrough infections are very real, but it seems like a stretch to limit your child’s ability to visit your parents when a simple test before she sees your in-laws should suffice . . . especially if you are comfortable that your parents are covid-free (and perhaps have even tested as well).

      Both sets of parents can choose the consequences of their own actions. I think it’s important for you to do what you and your husband think is important.

        1. Plus the rapid tests are just not super reliable. I know multiple people who tested negative after the onset of symptoms but still had Covid (eventually confirmed by PCR).

          1. +1. I know someone who got COVID from an acquaintance after that person had tested negative on a rapid test. She then passed it on to one of her kids. Vaccines were only weeks away from being available for her, too.

      2. WTF? No, her parents are clearly in the wrong. In-laws shouldn’t have the bear the consequences of her parents’ selfish and irresponsible behavior.

      2. Can I ask where you heard this? I’ve read some studies showing the vaccine offers only a small (and rapidly declining with the passage of time since vaccination) reduction of delta transmission but never anything like this. I could maybe see the argument that vaccinated individuals engage in riskier behavior but at least in the US I doubt that.

      3. “some evidence indicates that [vaccines] increase the spread of the disease” Please share a citation because I want to read it.

      5. “ In fact, some evidence indicates that they (vaccinated people) increase the spread of the disease.”

        No no no. I bet you’re referencing Joe Rogan’s completely wrong interpretation of some research on a chicken virus. The author of the research has said that Rogan totally misunderstood the data.

    22. “The shenanigans both sides are pulling”? Only one side (your parents) is “pulling shenaningans” here.

      You are a grown-up. Stand up for what’s right.

    24. Your in-laws are being reasonable. Your parents are not. If it were my family, we would not being seeing my parents, and would instead be spending time with the vaccinated in-laws who actually care about protecting my child.

    25. Just another anon voice saying your in-laws are right, and you are wrong. Your unvaxxed parents are the most wrong. I would never take my infant around anyone unvaxxed, parents or not. You picked the wrong horse here.

    26. So OP, what are your thoughts now, after reading everyone’s input?

      Have you ever thought about limiting your visits with your parents until they get vaccinated?

      You know, they will eventually get COVID if they don’t get vaccinated. They will….

    27. They NEVER have to “accept” very preventable and unnecessary risks. EVER. Neither do you.

    28. If I were your DH, my child would not be visiting with unvaccinated adults and this would’ve been shut down months ago. Your parents (and you) are totally in the wrong here. This is not where we are in the pandemic. Your parents have a choice to not get vaccinated but you also have a choice to not knowingly expose your child to unvaccinated people. I would absolutely no questions asked not see my parents or any family member in this scenario. What exactly is their issue with vaccines with full FDA approval? I had grandparents get TDAP before coming to visit my newborns, and this is no different

  13. Are there tricks for removing static cling without those spray products? Are the sprays safe for textile fibers and the wearer?

    2. The sprays are fine. For a quick fix to a skirt-sticking-to-stockings type situation, wet your hand in the sink and run it around under the skirt. The water somehow helps get rid of the static.

  14. I have a hearing today in a rural part of my state. When I asked if they had any COVID rules for me to observe, the reaction was basically “Lol, wut?” You would have thought I asked them what their preferred mode of travel to Mars was!

    So anyway, thank you for the COVID-related discussions lately. It was a good reminder for me to go ahead and get a booster shot.

    1. Yeah. The only way the rural parts of my state are being inconvenienced by Covid is the uptick in funerals they have to attend.

      2. I work for a pension, and we literally had to double our claims processing team for all the premature deaths in rural areas of the state.

  15. I work in biglaw and am relatively happy in my career, but I don’t think this is a forever path and during the valleys I fantasize about quitting and opening up a coffee shop/bar in my husband’s small, quaint hometown. It’s like Gilmore Girls Stars Hollow but southern and grungier. This is mostly just having fun toying with the borderline-kitschy theme/decor and menu (small, but respectable all day breakfast options!), but I’m curious if anyone’s done anything similar and has insight/stories/anecdata from starting a small business in a smaller town. I’m not necessarily considering this from a practical perspective (for example, no idea what a ballpark would even be for startup costs), but it’d be nice to hear others comments to add a bit more color to my next daydream!

    1. It’s not realistic. A small town in the south cannot afford to pay/support what you need to charge to run a cute, kitschy coffee shop.

      1. I travel through the SEUS, hate Starbucks, and enjoy making stops in small towns to buy coffee at their idiosyncratic small town coffee shops. So somebody’s making it work.

        1. Mostly people who can afford to run a business for the fun of it. They are not making a living at it, rather approach it as a service to the community. Their living either comes from retirement/early retirement income or a spouse. See also: cute local yarn stores.
          Source: Live in such a place.

        2. For every one of these coffee shops that survives, how many have gone out of business?

      2. This. People in my 30,000 person city are always asking why we don’t have some kind of coffee shop or restaurant or whatever and the answer is because it’s not viable at all.

      3. Depends on the town. You want a small town like Carrboro, NC, which is next to Chapel Hill and super hippie and would totally support a coffee shop. You don’t want a small town in the middle of nowhere. But my dad was in the restaurant business and you couldn’t pay me money to get into it. It’s hard. [Dad recently retired, sold the restaurant, and is much less stressed]

        1. Look at Dayspring Coffee social media (Gregory, SD). This is literally the middle of nowhere, drive 30 mins to get milk, area, and it’s the cutest darn coffee shop that would fit any suburb. No idea how they stay alive.

    2. We are in a decent-sized suburb, not a small town. A very nice family opened a coffee shop in a fantastic location. It had cute decor, great coffee, and lunch and ice cream to attract people during the day and evening. It was all very well thought out. My family was there at least once a week, and I used to go there by myself at least one morning a week. Despite how fantastic it was and the fact that there were always customers, business just never picked up enough to make it viable. The owners were always working because they couldn’t afford to hire anyone. After a couple of years it went out of business. I imagine they lost a fair amount of money, and they had to have given up their careers. It was really sad. And this was a place with a much bigger potential customer base than a small town.

      TLDR don’t do it unless you are willing to work 24/7 and lose a ton of money.

    3. Have you ever worked in a restaurant or coffee shop? If not, then don’t do it. Best advice I ever got when I was thinking of doing the same in my small hometown.

    4. reliable staffing is an enormous problem, you’ll end up doing everything from janitorial to cooking yourself, leave it as a daydream.

    5. The way to do this successfully is to become the heroine in a Hallmark Christmas movie.

    6. I’ve known many people who had this dream and several people who actually tried it. If you really want to pursue this, I strongly recommend you go work in a coffee shop on weekends as an employee to understand from the inside of that business what owning the business will be like. Because as an owner, until the business gets off the ground, you will be the one paying the bills but also working in the business. You will be making coffees, cleaning tables, taking out trash, unpacking shipments, etc. You may be working from opening till closing for multiple days in a row. It’s grueling and it was something the people I know who opened coffee shops (see also: bookstores, art galleries, small restaurants, etc.) were not prepared for. Even if these folks never intended to work in the business, if the choice is – the business closes for the day because their staff didn’t show up and there’s no one else to work, or they make the coffee so they open that day and hopefully make enough money to pay the electric bill, they worked in the business. It takes about two years for a business like that to reliably turn a profit and for most folks, having a day job and running the business was a pipe dream. So a financial cushion is essential.

      I entertain similar dreams of opening a combination art gallery/art book store every time we visit a little mountain town and I look at the cute, charming shops that are seemingly doing great with tourist traffic. However, I know enough horror stories about the reality of that to keep it as a daydream, at least until/unless we have millions in the bank and enough free time and energy to throw all of our time and energy into making something like that work. Which will probably be never.

    7. We are in a small Western town and it is supporting an independent coffee store, but only because there is a reasonable amount of tourism in the area.

    8. There’s a cafe in my local town that is a cafe by day but they host live acts at night and started their own microbrewery – I assume the beer is what really pays the bills. I’ve also seen cafes that rent out their spaces for small events after they close in the evening. One of my friends got married at another local coffee shop. You could have a multi-purpose business and really justify that cute decor!

    9. Small town staffing is incredibly difficult.

      I sometimes search “[closest city] businesses for sale” for my daydreaming. Acquiring an existing business appeals to me because I could look at the books for the past few years to get a sense of how the business performs in the area.

    10. The best way to end up with a million dollars from opening a restaurant is to start with two million dollars.

      Find a new escape fantasy!

    11. I daydream about quitting law and opening a bakery. My daydream bakery would love to supply baked goods to your daydream coffee shop. :)

      1. Ok so there’s a bakery and coffee shop we used to love visiting in the small town we vacation in. They have now closed to the public except for one night per week when they have live entertainment and can sell beer and wine. Other than that, they sell their baked goods at farmer’s markets 1+ hours away. They could not make the daily bakery and morning coffee work, as popular as they were with vacationers. I’m talking a line out the door.

    12. I have a friend who, along with her husband, has successfully opened a bar/restaurant in his smallish Southern hometown. They have been successful for a bunch of reasons, none of which would apply to you or most people: They were able to purchase an historic property, develop most of into condos, and put the bar on the roof, which was amazing; the town is the site of a big Civil War battle so there is a constant stream of tourists looking for a nice place to eat and drink; they had a lot of pre-existing connections in town, which allowed them to hire good help and get through the government regulations; most importantly, they have VERY VERY deep pockets and were able to float it for a long time before they started making money.

    14. I live in a small New England town with a wealth of local coffee shops and other cute businesses and it is still incredibly hard. What I’ve observed is that:
      – the owners usually purchased a commercial building instead of renting a space
      – many owners also live in an apartment on the same property to get more value out of their purchase
      – they work all of the hours the business is open and during lean periods don’t collect a salary from their work
      – they are already plugged into the community, known the town council members etc. so that they can smooth the path for their zoning requests

      What seems to be more successful is purchasing an existing local business. For example, one of the three local yarn stores, a local bakery, and a local butterfly conservatory (this will probably out my location) are all currently up for sale due to owner-operator retirements. They have established business plans and customer bases so you aren’t starting from scratch. The local donut shop changed hands last year and is now doing incredibly well, so the model of buying an existing business looks like the way to go, at least around here.

      1. Luke’s diner actually seems pretty accurate! Owned the building, lived upstairs, worked all the hours, knew everyone in town…

    15. I’ve never even worked in food service and I know that this is a much harder job than big law. Leave it as a fantasy.

  16. Is there a leftist group like the United Daughters of the Confederacy in size, influence and character — instead of racist white ladies insisting on textbooks portraying how kind slave owners are, a woke group that could steer textbooks and monuments the other way? Feels like lots of little groups and no big ones.

    1. I wouldn’t call them “leftist”, though they tend left of our current US center, but the ACLU and the League of Women Voters, perhaps?

    3. Does the National Organization For Women tend to skew liberal? Does it depend on the chapter?

    4. I mean, Black Lives Matter has definite stances on monuments, and I’m pretty sure a school curriculum affiliated. Were you looking for a specifically women’s group?

    5. Bryan Stevenson’s Equal Justice Initiative and his museum and memorial are doing some of this work. I don’t think they are doing textbooks, but are working to change the monument landscape in the South, particularly around the recognition of lynching violence.

    6. Gosh, that would be great. I wish some Democratic political strategist could come up with a really smart way to deal with the book-burners et al that are going to hand the suburbs to the Rs in all without some kind of plan. But I’m not optimistic.

  17. I’m thinking about updating my kitchen. I have no sense of style and my usual inspiration Pinterest is now a terrible mishmash of sponsored crap so can’t draw ideas from there.

    Questions for those of you with a good eye for this stuff – I’m thinking white, with white faux marble counters and white cabinets. What do we do for the floor? Currently floor is tile that will need to be replaced – do I continue the walnut wood from the living room or pick a different tile? I’m worried about wood in the kitchen getting ruined. And what wall paint? Backsplash? Too many choices!

    House is late 19th century with stained glass so style will be “transitional” or traditional – not modern. Thanks for any suggestions.

    1. What you’re proposing will stick out like a sore thumb in your house. Consult a designer if you want something modern while respecting the existing architecture.

    3. From what you’ve described, if you can afford it I’d run the wood floor into the kitchen, that will look the nicest long term, but if you strongly prefer tile I’d go with either a brick look tile or slate look (brick, slate or limestone floors were usually used in the 1800s in many houses, but you can probably ID what your area used). If you’re not super into design shaker style cabinets are the easiest/most classic. I’d go with either black or brass cabinet pulls vs. silver colored ones. Quartz/Quartzite are more modern than granite but cheaper than marble (is that what you meant by faux?). If you want to warm it up I’m seeing more wood topped islands recently. I think this was discussed earlier this week but a big trend is to run the counter material up to the bottom of the cabinets/use it as a backsplash for a unified look. Otherwise subway tile is about as classic as you can get – pick one with texture for more visual interest (zelige look is what you want to tell the tile people).

    4. If you choose not to run the walnut wood through the kitchen, I’d definitely go with a tile. While I love vinyl planks, I hate seeing wood-look vinyl up against hardwood. Given the age of your home, maybe a spanish tile or checkerboard floors. There are more ways to do this than just the traditional black and white. All white kitchens are trending out and would look out of place in your age home. Would you consider a two-toned kitchen? Bead board is a good traditional choice for backsplash.

    5. Spend some time on Maria Killam’s website. Best life advice I ever got (and I got it here) re all things housing.

    6. I’d definitely continue the wood into the kitchen. I think white cabinets are pretty inoffensive and marble look counters are nice – I have quartzite and wish I had done quartz instead. Marble has been used for centuries and is classic. Wood cabinetry is becoming more popular but I think painted cabinets are preferable to low end wood. If you can’t decide on a backsplash the bedrosians cloe white tile that someone suggested earlier this week is very nice! I think a lot of details like lighting, hardware, faucet, etc can help direct the look of the kitchen to be more traditional or vintage.

    7. I’m a crazy old house lady so YMMV. I would carry the wood through, using salvaged wood if possible to match the originals, if you can’t salvage get it from a mill and not a big box store. Do not get faux marble, I’d suggest real stone or butcher block. Cabinet and wall colour is totally personal choice, if you want to get period appropriate colours Farrow and ball is good for inspiration even if you just get it colour matched. If you can swing it solid wood cabinets would look much better than MDF or laminated board. For the back splash I’d probably go with something classic: hex, subway, herringbone etc.

    8. White is classic but consider going with a less bright white / softer white to reflect the age of your home. Go with shaker or other basic cabinets. If you can afford custom cabinets with inset doors, that is going to be more classic.

      In my 1909 kitchen we were fixing a couple of really bad remodels so we had no original-to-the-house inspiration, but we took up some horrible vinyl on the floor and had the wood underneath refinished. Our cabinets are very basic and are off-white. Tile is white subway but not the blinding-est white shade (it would just look white if you walked into my kitchen, but at a tile store there’s definitely a difference in whites), we have black quartzite counters, and went with stainless appliances. The hardest part was finding the right sink but we found a deep porcelain coated sink that looks exactly right for the age of the house. Lighting is from Rejuvenation and is appropriate to the era as well.

      I didn’t use Pinterest but I did reference some decor books by a woman who specializes in houses my home’s age. I am sure you could find some for the age of your home.

      You also have to find the right contractor. You want someone who respects the age of your house and doesn’t want to install a sleek, modern kitchen.

    9. Thanks all. I appreciate the feedback – really trying to avoid trendy but maybe the all white (or slightly antique white) is too trendy. Current cabinets are a sort of mid cherry shaker, which wouldn’t really work if we extended the walnut floor. The mismatched wood issue is what makes me think painted cabinets. Current kitchen is early 2000s granite hodgepodge – not historical at all- and pretty small and dark which is why I thought white might help.

      I will try to find a vintage/historical home designer. The designers websites I’ve looked for my area at tend to have the same modern vibe even in older homes. Definitely willing to pay to get this right. And to help identify the fixtures etc that will help it trend historical.

      1. White kitchens are extremely classic, despite what some people might think. They’re popular now, sure, but they were also popular 100 years ago.

        1. +1 white was the only color for kitchens around the turn of the last century. Anything else would have been considered unsanitary.

          But those kitchens didn’t look like ours. To the extent they had appliances they were free standing, like dressers in a bedroom, so no countertops. There was often a kitchen table in the middle of the kitchen for baking/food prep but it wasn’t counter height.

          Unless you want to live like the above, which, let’s face it in larger houses was done by staff, you do have to make some modern functional choices. Just not space age modern and you should be fine.

      2. Search deVOL kitchens for inspiration of very classic kitchens. On Instagram they provide really helpful insights on choosing appliances, sinks, colors, etc.

    10. I feel like white kitchens are pretty played out at this point, honestly. I’m seeing natural and painted wood cabinets. I second the suggestion to hire a designer.

      That said, we have wood floors in our kitchen to match the rest of the house and we love it and haven’t had any problems with maintenance.

    11. Look at my100yearoldhouse blog and insta. Gorgeous kitchens in both of her older homes!!

  18. A friend of mine has complained about her cuticles. I would love to get her a luxurious cuticle cream/balm for Xmas. Any suggestions?

      1. +1 Love Burt’s Bees lemon butter cuticle cream. It passes my cat’s sniff test (meaning if it’s made out of crap she wrinkles her nose and recoils, but if it’s made out of natural ingredients, she wants to lick it off)

      2. Burt’s Bees lemon butter cuticle cream. It’s not a luxury brand, but it WORKS for me.

    2. Get the Dior apricot cuticle cream. If you order directly from Dior, the packaging is beautiful and would make a great gift.

  19. Frivolous home design/finances question for you folks.

    I WFH full time, permanently and I have a dedicated home office. I recently ordered a new L-shaped desk to replace the small desk I had bought early in the pandemic, as I felt I needed more desk space. Love the new desk, it’s exactly what I wanted.

    On a whim, I decided to see what it would be like to have a U-shaped desk and so I moved the old desk back in my office and butted it up against the new desk. OMG I love this even more! So much room for all my tech equipment and now I have dedicated open desk space to arrange notes, etc.

    The thing is, my new desk has gold legs and a marbleized top. My old desk has black metal legs and a wood top, and is also slightly taller than the new desk (about an inch). They don’t go together (the first thing my husband said when he walked in after I moved the old desk back in was, “I’m sure it’s great to have that much space but this looks kind of strange.”)

    I looked online and I can get a desk that would work as an add-on for about $125 shipped. It matches my new gold/white desk exactly. I am having trouble pulling the trigger, even though the $125 expense is no problem, because the old desk is “perfectly good” functionally, and the only issue I have with it is aesthetic. My frugal grandma is in my head, big time, telling me “why would you buy something new when there’s nothing wrong with the old one?” We make over $200k a year and are pretty careful with our money, we have plenty in savings, etc. and I don’t spend much money on myself, generally. Add into that I just did some contract work and so have some “mad money” available to me that wouldn’t require me to use salary or savings to pay for the new desk. Plus my husband thinks we can sell the old desk on Craigslist for about $50.

    What say you, wise hive? Buy the new desk and have a matching office suite and bask in the glow of feeling like I’m living in a Nancy Meyers movie? Or listen to the Frugal Grandma in my head and live with the old desk, which I probably would get used to eventually?

      1. Buy it! Don’t even think about it. Also of the lists in my town are anything to go by, people cannot give used furniture away. I’d have a backup plan to donate it to a shelter or other organization if it doesn’t sell, but maybe your market is better.

    3. $125 is a great price for a functional, pleasant work space. I say that as an overly frugal person. Sell the old desk to reduce the overall cost of the change.

    4. Have your husband get you the desk add-on for Christmas and call it a win-win. Frugal Grandma would love the idea of you being given a gift you’re seriously considering buying for yourself anyway :)

      1. This. Haha. Speaking as someone with multiple Frugal Grandparents on each shoulder.

    5. $125 is very little money for you. You are wealthy. Get over yourself and stop overthinking.

      1. What a rude answer. Maybe question why you felt the need to answer this in such a hostile manner. Says more about you and your mindset than the person asking the question.

    7. Get the new desk you want. Donate old desk to goodwill so someone who needs a desk but can’t afford a new one can have one.

    9. If you waffle over it and finally give in a month from now, the desk probably won’t be in stock anymore, and you will never achieve desk nirvana, so do it! The time is now!

      1. Thanks for this push and thanks for the responses, all! As you say, An.On., I did start to worry that by the time I was done dithering the desk would be out of stock. So, I ordered it.

        I appreciate the feedback; I grew up with two sets of super-frugal grandparents who had grown up on farms in the Dust Bowl during the Great Depression, and they used and reused everything until it fell apart. My maternal grandparents had the same furniture in their house for 45 years; some of it was literally duct-taped together by the time they died but of course the refrain was “it’s still perfectly good!” Hard not to hang on to that mindset, even when it’s not very useful and/or it doesn’t really fit with your current circumstances.

    10. Get the new desk for sure! Enjoy a matching office suite, you’ve worked hard and you’ve earned it. Maybe you can deduct it as an unreimbursed business expense if its primary use is for work. (I’m not an accountant, just throwing that out an idea)

  20. So to jump on your fantasy, I think my college town in southern Pennsylvania would work for this. The col was super low and there were college kids with spending money. Town was cute and grungy. You could probably buy and fix up an elegant little row house for a song relative to a big city suburb and walk to the shop everyday. Sorry that’s not helpful.

    My mom owns an ice cream shop franchise in our ny suburb with a walkable downtown. She makes good money and it’s mostly a pretty joyful (her words) enterprise.

  21. A few weeks ago, I posted about being freaked out to get a new cat. I really did not feel ready for opening up my heart again after losing my beloved cat a few months ago. Well, shortly after posting, one of my kids spotted a cat on a shelter website that he wanted to meet. I said yes, and you can guess what happened. We left the shelter with the sweetest brown-and-black tabby. He is the best. I am in love. I am working from home today, and he’s basking in the sunlight nearby. He snuggled with me as I watched Ted Lasso last night. My world is right again because there is a cat living in my house.

    3. It’s never a replacement for an animal you’ve lost, of course, but if you are an animal lover living in a house without one is far too quiet.

    4. It’s been a terrible week and your story brought a tear to my eye. I’m so glad for you and your new kitty!!

    7. I am so happy to hear this.
      I cruise Petfinder when I feel emotionally constipated and came across a cat named Onion. If I weren’t so allergic I would have dropped everything to adopt him.

    8. How wonderful! This brought a huge smile to my face. So glad you were able to open your heart and home to him.

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