Thursday’s Workwear Report: Zip Pencil Skirt

300 Comments

1. FYI this link goes to J.Crew Factory, which is not always of comparable quality to regular J.Crew

   1. J. Crew Factory is not anything like J. Crew. Cheap!

      1. Trump, is that you?

         1. Ivanka?

   2. Agreed. It’s cheaper for a reason. Everything looks just fine until you try to wash it.

      1. I bought a J Crew Factory coat once, and the felted wool feels like sandpaper: thin and coarse.
         That was my first thought when I read that this skirt is felted wool

      2. Also, I can NOT wear a skirt with an exposed Zipper b/c of Frank. Why don’t men have exposed zipper’s? Not that I would want to even get close to what is hidden and lurkeing beneathe that zipper. PTOOEY and TRIPEL FOOEY!

2. Oooooh, I love this and it would be completely fine in my office.

   1. Me too… I love the look of heavy wool skirts. I may have to get this!

   2. Me too! Although I’d be concerned that the zipper would snag tights.

      1. I’d be concerned it would shrink two sizes the first time I cleaned it, just like every other piece of wool-blend workwear I’ve bought from J.Crew in the last three years.

         1. Yes! I just *dry cleaned* a J.Crew wool blend sweater and couldn’t believe how much it shrunk. Can barely wear it now.

            1. Ooh yup my post should read “dry cleaned.” Unacceptable. I don’t buy J.Crew anymore.

         2. I am now actually wondering if my factory wool pencil skirts did that… I thought I had just gotten fatter :(

3. I know there are guidelines on how often to throw out different kinds of makeup, does anyone follow those rules? Is there an easy way to remember when I need to toss my mascara? Also, for things like toothbrushes, how do you remember that it’s time to replace them?

   1. I’m pretty fast and loose with rules like that, but I do only buy the travel sized mascaras you get in the bins near the checkout at Sephora. I figure by the time I use up a small tube like that it’s probably time for a new one.

      1. This is such a great idea! I barely wear makeup so ignore the rules like crazy, but do worry about mascara and eye infections.

      2. Brilliant.

         I’ve recently started only ordering from sephora.com when one of the free samples is a mascara sample for a similar reason. But the travel size tube idea is another good idea.

      3. I went to a theater makeup presentation in HS with a makeup specialist (no idea what their credentials actually were) but something that always stuck with me from that presentation was that they emphasized how mascara is the riskiest makeup we use because it breeds bacteria so easily and goes right by your eyes. I usually use a tube of mascara every 3 months, but have trashed tubes that went over that.

      4. +1 — love all the travel size tubes — perfect amt for 3 months and gives me a chance to experiment

   2. I blatantly ignore them. Mascara I just use until it’s finished, and things like foundation/concealer don’t last me long enough that I’d be concerned about it anyway since I use those every day. Eyeshadow and eyeliner I could have for years. Though I have been meaning to throw out a bunch of stuff I just never use, more for space than cleanliness concerns. Toothbrushes I just replace when they start to look like they need replacing.

      1. +1, maybe I’m flirting with disaster but I haven’t had a problem yet. I think my blush is four years old at this point, which is actually pretty mind-boggling because I wear it every day.

      2. +2 I have 15 year old eyeshadow that I still wear (infrequently, obvs.)

         1. A couple years ago, I was attending a family wedding and hadn’t worn eyeshadow in a while. I pulled out an old one that was about 5 yrs old (pre-dating the birth of my first kid when all going out ceased ;) and used it only to get an eye infection. So I’ve been a lot more wary of sticking to the timelines suggested for eye makeup only b/c of the potential for infection.

      3. Yep.

   3. I used to be really good about opening a new mini tube of mascara around my birthday, and then another one around my half birthday, but I haven’t gotten any new ones recently so I’ve been using the same big tube of mascara for . . . I’m not even sure how long. Too long, probably.

      For everything else . . . I don’t bother replacing foundation because I use liquid. But I use pressed powder and tend to “double dip” my applicators. I replace my powder applicators when they seem dirty, but I’m sure the powder expires so I buy a new one roughly every 6 months, usually when it’s on sale. I use my liquid liner until it’s gone; same with lip color, concealer, cheek stain and blush, although I do try to keep my brushes clean!

   4. Toothbrushes are the only thing I replace to the guidelines. I do it every 3 months – each new quarter new toothbrush. Usually it will be a few days in when I finally remember, and buying them in multiples helps, so I always have one to replace when I need it.

      1. This. I’m not great at makeup replacement but I replace my toothbrush on the first day of each new season – it’s become an odd tradition that I kinda like.

      2. I like the idea of replacing it on the first day of the season. I buy the ones with the colored indicators! And I throw them out after a bad flu/cold/strep.

   5. Yeh my toothbrushes start to look like they need replaced or I think “eh, I should probably replace that”. We always use new toothbrushes after having a cold or illness, and replace chapstick after the same thing.

   6. Mascara I do every six months – January 1 and July 1, I start new tubes. I go for a teeth cleaning every six months or so, so whenever I go in for a new cleaning is when I replace my toothbrush.

      Everything else I don’t follow any kind of rule for replacing.

      1. I get my teeth cleaned every four months and the dentist gives me a new toothbrush each time, so that kind of takes care of itself.

         1. That’s usually the way I do it too, but I haven’t liked the toothbrushes they have recently, but it’s still a nice reminder.

   7. An easy way to remember is to set up an amazon subscription– we have new toothbrushes come every 3 months, so when a new one comes in the mail, we throw out the old one.

   8. I do Amazon Subscribe and Save, and ordered new toothbrushes to arrive every 3 months. When I get new ones in the mail, I replace my old ones.

      I blatantly ignore any makeup recommendations. I use it until it’s gone.

   9. You’re supposed to go for a dental cleaning every six months, so I replace my toothbrush when I go in for my cleaning and my dentist gives me a new one.

   10. Mascara I try to be pretty good about switching at least ever six month, usually it starts to dry out before that time limit though. Foundation I go through quicker than the recommendation, and I stay pretty good about throwing away ones I don’t like or didn’t finish for one reason or another. I am not as good with powder products, but I will say if I can’t remember about when I bought it, I throw it away. I will take a couple of layers off powder products if I think they are getting old. Also makeup brushes cleaned once a week without fail. Lip products I do not throw away nearly as often as I should, but I go by the smell/texture/taste rule. If anything starts to remotely change in how a product preforms I toss it. I probably purge twice a year. In general I try to be more careful with cream products and less worried about powder products.I feel this goes the long way to keeping products cleaner.

   11. My make up artist friend told me that if you can still hear the “pop” when you take out the mascara wand, it is still good. That said, I usually toss mascara when it starts going on clumpy. Everything else I tend to use until I run out.

   12. I replace mascara fairly frequently but primarily because it dries out after a while. I don’t throw anything else away unless it smells odd or the texture changes.

4. The Teal version is rockin

5. DH and I are just starting to plan a ~7 day vacation for April with a $5k budget, departing from Boston. Zika is an issue, so we’re looking to Europe. Beyond that, we’re pretty flexible. I’ve never done Airbnb, let alone internationally. Any specific unit/rental recommendations in maybe the south of France or Tuscany? I’m all for the accommodations of a normal, high quality hotel, but some of the flats/houses for rent I’m seeing on Airbnb look irresistible! Not sure we could do a full week in a countryside location, but maybe! We just don’t really know where to start with this planning. TIA!

   1. A few tips. I used an AirBnB for my honeymoon in the Great Smokey Mountains, and it was lovely. A truly gorgeous cabin with a jacuzzi and walls of windows. I never saw the owners because they had the key in a lockbox and provided us with the code.

      I also used AirBnB for a girls weekend in San Francisco, and it was a similar set up with a lockbox. Be aware some AirBnB hosts only rent rooms and are there during your time. I wouldn’t feel comfortable, but some friends have done this internationally and enjoyed it because the host was like a city guide, recommending things to do.

      1. I’d love to hear more about this trip to the smokey mountains? What town did you stay in and what time of year? Excursions, restaurants?

         1. Gatlinburg, TN is right by the entrance of the park, so it’s a popular area for gorgeous and secluded cabins (though it also has it’s super touristy area, so it depends where you are).

            My SO and I rented a cabin for our anniversary and planned our itinerary that was 90% outdoor excursions. We rode horses inside the park at Sugarland Riding Stables, rented hiking gear from Nantahala Outdoor Center and hiked for a day, went white water rafting (late summer) on the Little Pigeon (right where Asheville kisses Tenn.), and (my personal favorite) rented a Jeep Wrangler and drove around the Blueridge Parkway. It was so much fun! I think we could have done some Asheville stuff too, but didn’t plan it out that way.

            We bought some food at a local store (breakfast and snacks) and ate the rest of our meals out. It wasn’t the fanciest meals we’ve had, but it was fun checking out some of the local spots. We love East Tennessee and that area of the mountains!

            1. **Apologies for my typos. I just got super excited about this, since it was a really memorable trip!

               *its // *They were not the fanciest meals . . .

            2. That sounds awesome!

            3. Thank you!

   2. Where have you been that you liked before? What do want out of the vacation?

      I have done Airbnb a lot – my biggest recommendation is to look for lots of other reviews and read them. Find a host that is responsive, and that lots of people have liked – I feel much more confident doing that. Do you speak any languages? That sometimes makes it easier for AirBNB when doing it internationally. Will you have an international phone plan? If you are going to get to the place late or if you show up and your host isn’t there, or if something goes wrong with your stay – its nice to be able to text or call to communicate with your host.

   3. I just did a big trip to Spain (4 different cities) and used AirBnB, and it was great! We got small apartments right in the center of the cities, and most of the hosts provided maps and their recommendations on where to eat and what to do.

   4. I would hesitate to use AirBnB for a rural property if arriving after an long-haul flight plus a drive to the actual rural destination, because it would be such a major pain if anything went awry with arrangements. In towns/ cities, I look for rentals which are clearly full-time rentals with a proper manager in charge, rather than part-time gigs for the landlord (VRBO is better for this than Air BnB) and my standard ask is for bedrooms which are shielded from street noise (either facing into an internal courtyard or double-glazed with a/c). And as someone else says above, lots and lots of positive reviews (and in the case of AirBnB, nothing below a 4.5* rating).

      As to specific recs, these are wonderful wonderful properties in an extremely pretty part of Tuscany :
      http://lafoce.com/
      http://www.rwebdemo.com/la-bandita/

6. Earlier this week I posted about a friend I’m concerned about. It turned somewhat into a debate about consenting while blackout drunk, but after reflecting on everyone’s feedback, I am more worried about her drinking.

   Another crazy incident happened last night. She called me at almost midnight saying she had arrived home (driving “buzzed”) to find her electricity disconnected for not paying the bill. She’s commented her finances are poor because her drinking and going out interferes with her ability to generate business, and she’s self-employed. There was no heat in her house, and ot has been below freezing at night. She came over and stayed in my guest room, and she left quite early without saying much. She was quiet and seemed embarrassed (or maybe hungover?), leaving without even a cup of coffee (and she’s a big coffee drinker).

   So…I’m also thinking of people’s comments to not enable self-destructive behavior. I’ve decided to talk to her on Sat. and focus on the drinking and resulting decisions, like drunk driving, not paying bills, literally not having a safe warm place to stay…and avoid the conversation about sex. Any other tips? I’ve fortunately never had to have “a talk” with a friend about drinking, but she arrived quite drunk. Had I known, I would have picked her up or sent an Uber. Its scary to think she could get a DUI or worse, get in an accident and hurt herself or someone else.

   1. Good luck. I know you got a lot of criticism when you posted earlier, but you’re a good friend. Most of my friends would just back away and not say anything — it’s a rare person who stays involved even when the other person is a mess.

      I’ve never done this before so no idea. But can you make it about her drinking — a potential DUI and how she’d live with that; and then about her finances — her business and her bills? Like literally — how are you generating business? Do you have a plan for that? Let’s work out a plan. Now let’s talk about the bills and a plan for that? Or if she shuts it down let her know that you WILL sit down for her and plan out those things if she wants to bounce it off of someone. I feel like she’d be more responsive and feel less “judged” on those issues than about the personal life issues.

      1. Thanks. I’m literally writing these questions down to help guide the conversation. Its good stuff, and true. I am worried she’s in this spiral and I am willing to sit down and help her plan if that’s what it takes. I’d much rather invest the time and give her a hand instead of being scared about what crazy call I’ll next receive.

   2. I just want to warn you, as someone with several alcoholics/problem drinkers in her family, be prepared for the conversation to not go well. For my dad, when he decided to go to rehab, it was a decision he made on his own, not something that someone talked him into. No one could talk him into anything. For a very close friend of mine, various people had expressed concern to her one on one and she told all of them to go f&ck themselves/mind their own business. We ended up having a successful and loving intervention for her and she’s now in rehab.

      I would really strongly recommend reading the book “Love First” by Jeff & Debra Jay before having a conversation with her, even if you don’t necessarily think she needs to go to rehab or want to do some kind of intervention. You can get an electronic version of it from amazon, and its not a long book. But it talks about how to talk to someone about their drinking, and goes over why it’s not typically successful to convince someone to change their problematic drinking behavior with a one on one conversation. It was very helpful to me in thinking through how to handle my friend’s drinking and rx pill use when it was getting to the point where we were all very scared for her.

      1. I will check it out on my Kindle. Thanks for sharing your experience with your dad. I have prepared myself to potentially push her away, but I just can’t deal with the crazy anymore. This is a close friend, and I care about her, but she needs a reality check about how scary her behavior is.

      2. +1 she has to decide for herself to change her life. That means you can still talk to her, but manage your expectations accordingly. Her making a lifestyle change the next day is an unlikely outcome. Her hearing the message that you are worried about her safety (physical, financial) and that you believe she is capable of making a change and you will be there for her with advice is still difficult to achieve with that conversation, but I wish you luck.

   3. I was a blackout drinker. Re: consent. I know for a fact that I walked, talked, play pool, drove and had sex in a complete blackout. I had sex with a good friend who was very upset that I did not remember it AT ALL because he was sure I was “into it.” If I can’t remember what happened, there is no way that I would ever assume I was assaulted. Re: drinking problem. If she has having blackouts, she has a problem. I would suggest AA. You may even contact the local AA group and leave literature at her house. It may be months or years before she goes, but your suggestion can plant the seed. My suggestion is to wait until she expresses her own concern again and then gently suggest that she call AA and see what they think.

      1. OP here: thanks for sharing your experience because I can honestly say I’ve never had any blackout experience. I’ve been drunk but never to the point of not remembering. My friend has said she’s scared herself because she woke up and didn’t have any memory of how she got there or what happened. I can definitely pick up some AA literature to have as an option if she wants to utilize that research. I get that people have to want to help themselves. I’m hoping that she may be at her rock bottom. I can’t imagine pulling up to my house drunk at midnight and having no electricity because I didn’t pay the bill. It must be very frightening, so I hope that may influence her to change.

         1. Well, I was there and I have been sober for 21 years. Not all alcoholics have blackout but for those of us who do, it only gets more frequent and more dangerous. I still go to AA meetings twice a week. Best of luck.

      2. “If I can’t remember what happened, there is no way that I would ever assume I was assaulted.”

         It’s not about assuming you were assaulted. If you can’t remember, you don’t know one way or the other. In this case you relied on that your friend told you that you consented. If it was a stranger, you have to decide if you trust what the stranger tells you. But you can’t know one way or the other, you can only trust or not trust what the other person says.

         1. True, you wouldn’t know. But it is dangerous to assume that you were a crime victim. Very dangerous.

            1. Who is saying that you should assume you were? If you don’t remember, then you’re just lying to yourself if you don’t acknowledge that it’s a possibility. What is “very dangerous” about acknowledging that you may have been assaulted?

               Given the vitriol with which you react to the idea that ‘if you can’t remember, you don’t know’, it seems like it’s challenging some assumptions you may have made about your blackout experiences. Maybe everything that happened when you experienced blackout was consensual. Maybe none of it was. You have no way to know that beyond trusting what you’re told by whoever was there.

            2. Anon at 11:06 – I agree with what you just said. I should have been more clear. You may or may not have been raped. But since you can’t remember, and you walk, talk, drive and your friends never know you won’t remember, you shouldn’t call the police in the morning just because you don’t remember consenting. Imean, unless you wake up with bruises and ripped clothes, alone, etc.

            3. Can’t call the police in the morning? Umm, seriously? There are already huge barriers to reporting sexual assault, and most women don’t. I don’t see the jump from being concerned about consent to being concerned that people will make false rape claims, which by the way, are about 3%, the same small percent as false major crime claims of all types.

            4. +1 to Anonymous @ 11:06!

   4. It is perfectly reasonable to consent while in a black out. Just because I don’t remember doesn’t mean it didn’t look like I couldn’t consent.

      1. Maybe.

         But if I were a bystander watching someone having s*x with someone blacking out from drinking, I would likely think it was nonconsensual. I would probably call the police.

         1. You would know they were in a blackout, how exactly? Because I just said you wouldn’t know. Blackout does not equal passed out. Get educated.

            1. This is true re: the distinction between blacking out and passing out. Blacking out is being awake and being able to physically do this but you have no memory of it after the fact. Being passed out is being unconscious. A person can consent to sex while in a black out and the other party really would have no idea that the person will have no memory of it the next day.

         2. Still more time passed before the significance of loss of memory formation was realized. Blacked-out persons are functioning on long-term episodic, semantic and procedural memory. They remember everything up to the moment of blacking out. They can carry on a conversation, drive a car, have sex, get into a fight. They may appear normal to those around them.

            But they have lost their short-term memory by which immediate or sensory memory is amalgamated into working memory. Their immediate memory of what they just saw, heard or felt lasts perhaps a few seconds if they are not distracted by something else they saw, heard or felt. They are all past, very little present and no future. From http://www.addictionpro.com/article/take-blackouts-seriously

         3. More importantly, why are you watching people have s*x?

            1. I’m thinking of that athlete guy who was assauting a girl who was intoxicated and some people intervened . . . the name escapes me. It was outside by a dumpster. If I saw that at closing time, I would not just walk away. If it’s not a problem, they can tell Mr. Officer (and if I were a big guy, I might intervene directly).

            2. I am the black out drinker whose experience coincides with the research. I think she is assuming she would come across a woman “blacking out” and getting molested because she looked sleepy. The most important concern I have is women who don’t know that they looked NORMAL when they were blacked out and therefore, the man did not know they weren’t functioning. And add to that this crazy person calling the police, and you have a guy arrested for what? Having sex while drunk. The same thing the woman was doing.

            3. Yeah, so, anon at 10:44 am, you don’t know what a black out is. Instead of calling the police like a crazy person, ask her if she is okay. If she can’t answer, then you have an issue.

            4. Anon @ 10:44 – she wasn’t blacked out, she was totally unconscious. The bystanders called out to her to ask if she was OK, she didn’t answer, and so they tackled the guy and called the cops.

            5. I think the point here is that big guys may directly intervene, but I agree that (as a smaller female person) I would worry about an unstable situation turning ugly (for others or for me). I’d rather let someone else handle.

         4. Pretty much every time I’ve called a friend to ask what happened the night before, the reaction is, “Wow you don’t remember? I had no clue you were that drunk.” I’ve heard this even from friends who don’t drink. You’re just not going to know when someone is in a blackout.

            Heck, sometimes I don’t even know how impaired I am until after a mini-blackout. For example, I’ll be drinking with friends, I decide it’s time to stop drinking and go get some water, then all of a sudden I’m picking up a water bottle and I don’t remember crossing the room or that conversation I apparently just had with a friend.

            1. Yes, this is part of the reason I stopped drinking and now only have a few here and there. I was completely functional, walking, talking, doing everything just as I normally would and while people could tell I was buzzed, no one knew I was blacked out. I wasn’t unconscious. Totally different.

               I blacked out so many times that I didn’t even get bothered by it. At that time it was, shrug, do I have all my stuff, where is my car, cool, time to go about my day.

               I will say that for me, blacking out didn’t always correspond with how much I was drinking. There have been times where I know for a fact I have only had two glasses of wine at home, and I woke up having no idea what I did at home the night before after I had those two glasses of wine.

               I guess the good news is, if it’s scaring here, she isn’t like I was and acting as it if is NBD. That’s helpful for her wanting to make a change. Good luck.

            2. CountC, I wonder if there’s something that makes some people more prone to blackouts than others. I often have mini-blackouts that have nothing to do with drinking. Usually while doing something repetitive, like on my commute home or a long run. I get lost in thought and just sort of tune out. All of a sudden I’m a mile farther than my last memory and I have no recollection of how I got there. Idk if that happens to everyone.

            3. 11:56 anon – I would think that’s completely possible!

               FWIW, I have had concussions and a brain hemorrhage, have mental illness in my family tree, and was taking both antidepressants and anti-anxiety medicine while all of this was going on. I would think that all of those things played some sort of role in my tendency to black out after only one or two glasses of wine. But who knows, I am not a doctor or scientist!

               The body, especially the brain, definitely works in very interesting ways.

            4. 11:56 anon- I’ve never blacked out from being drunk but I’ve totally been there with the sober blackouts. Driving home, I pull into the driveway and have no memory about how I got there, completely unimpaired. I assumed this happened to everyone, but thinking about it maybe not…

               It might just mean someone is timewalking in my vicinity I suppose.

            5. FWIW, I’m prone to blackouts, and I don’t have any of the things that CountC described in her post at 12:01. Brains are so strange! I was talking to a friend one time with whom I’d shared significant drunken escapades in college–I probably would have blacked out at some point in like, 50% of our nights together since we were a pretty hard-charging pair, and she shared that she had never in her life blacked out. We would drink the exact same amount and were similar in height, weight, and body composition; we’d even have dinner together frequently so it wasn’t that I’d be drinking on an empty stomach and she wouldn’t. I’ve even had nights where I’ve had maybe 3-4 drinks, and blacked out on going to bed, or getting home. I’ve read a lot on blackouts because of my personal experiences, and there’s no scientific consensus on what causes it; I’ve read that you’re more likely to blackout with sudden spikes in BAC, like from liquor or taking a shot, but really no one knows exactly what causes some people to blackout and others to not.

            6. I have had blackouts after only two beers and, on other times, I drank shots and would getting slurry and have short term memory loss but still know who I was with and what I did. A black out wasn’t like sleeping or dreaming. It was more like waking up from surgery with no sense of how much time had gone by and no idea where I had been. I would tell my friends and they would not believe me because I wasn’t slurring and didn’t seem drunk. Very scary.

         5. As someone who experienced blackouts in college: you can’t tell the person is blacking out. Blacking out is not the same as being sloppy drunk. Blacking out is a chemical process in the brain when someone stops making short and long term memories while drunk. I have hailed and payed for cabs, made dinner, had coherent conversations, walked through a city/stopped appropriately at crosswalks all while blackout drunk. How do I know? Because of the friends with me.

      2. You can’t consent to sex when you are black out drunk. If you disagree, would you be okay teaching high school boys that as long as their drunk af girlfriend says yes in the moment, sex is totally consensual? I understand that you don’t want to perceive your situation as having no consent – I get that. But it is absolutely not the standard that society should be using.

         1. When you say “the standard society should be using” do you mean the best practices we should teach our kids or what conduct we should criminalize? The line is different for those two things.

         2. I would not be okay with my son being arrested because the woman was drinking but didn’t act or look drunk and he had sex with her. That is very scary. It is not about consent but objectively, what the man is seeing and experiencing. Which is a woman who wants to have sex with him. Saying yes to sex is consent. Jesus. Exactly how would you teach your son to tell a yes from a “she says yes but might claim she doesn’t remember tomorrow because she is an alcoholic and I didn’t know it.” Scientifically. I want to know what you would tell your son. I get that it is safer to probably never have sex with a woman who had even one glass of wine because there are crazy women but I want to know how YOU know when a woman is in a black out. Explain it how you would explain it to your son.

            1. I have a stepson about to go away to college and this scares the cr*p out of me.

               I also have daughters and this scares the cr*p out of me.

               I guess it is like driving a car: so, so great and something that can ruin your life (and the lives of others) permanently even if done inadvertantly. People are reckless creatures in a given moment. There often isn’t a mulligan.

            2. I explain to my teenage sons that they need to obtain ‘enthusiastic consent’. The person they are with should be clear that she’s okay with what’s happening and show that in her words and her actions. That not stopping him from doing something is not enough.

               I tell them explicitly that ‘No means No’ is not enough for consent. Since they are straight, I tell them not to do anything to a girl without obtaining consent that they wouldn’t want a man to do to them without explicit consent.

               And I do this because it’s my F*ing obligation as a mom to make sure I do everything I can to raise good men. So tired of society focusing on teaching girls to avoid being assaulted instead of on teaching boys not to assault.

               Yes black out is not the same as passed out. But the reality is that there is often a lot of crossover between the two.

            3. My comment is in mod but this was my point exactly – the point is people who are not perceivably drunk.

            4. +1 to Not Anon Above. I don’t have kids, but if and when I do, I will use your approach.

               If there’s any doubt, don’t do it. Period. Consenting then removing consent happens. Consenting to one s*x act doesn’t mean you consent to the rest, or you can change your mind. Enthusiastic consent to each act is so important. And false rape claims are negligible. Its a red herring. Sexual assault due to a lack of consent is the larger issue at hand.

            5. I’d also add, don’t do anything, even with consent that you know she doesn’t want to do sober.

         3. I don’t think anyone is suggesting this – the point is that the other person won’t be able to tell that you’re not *really* consenting if they can’t tell that you’re too drunk to decide. Obviously if someone can barely form a coherent sentence it’s a whole different thing, but we’re talking here about people who are high-functioning and not perceivably drunk saying yes.

         4. Not Non Above – you need to read the article I posted. I am pretty sure a woman in a black out can enthusiastically consent. Oh, your son can black out, too. God, I hope he doesn’t get accused of rape in a black out after having sex at a party.

            1. That article states “For the hours, sometimes days such persons are in a blackout, they have lost their consciousness of self, their awareness of who and where they are. They are lost in the truest sense of the word-lost to themselves, lost in space, lost in time. They cannot think, learn, plan or form intent. They are unaware of what they are doing, let alone why. ”

               I’m unclear how you conclude that state lends itself to enthusiastic consent. I don’t see it. If you don’t have intent with your actions, how can you consent?

            2. Did you even read what I wrote?

               If either of them were falsely accused of assault, then they would be able to testify explicitly to all the reasons that they had a positive belief in her consent for each of the activities because they would have obtained that consent.

               You seem obsessed with the idea of false rape accusations. They are very very very uncommon. I have zero concern with them being false accused and less than zero concern that they will be false charged. If they have acted how I have taught them then there would be no basis to bring charges because there would not be a ‘reasonable prospect of conviction’.

            3. How would the boy know? How do you tell your son what to look for? Exactly what is it that he should see. Whether she can do math? I actually suggested to my son that he only have sex in a committed relationship. But if you condone screwing at parties, then what are the signs that a woman is in this blackout for your drunk son?

            4. Uh, I am a defense attorney. And had to go to trial and WIN in these cases when I don’t even think the police should have been called.

            5. Wow – you are obsessed with this. Alright then,

               “Exactly what is it that he should see.”: That she’s happy and responsive. That she says she likes something when he asks her if she does. That her speech isn’t slurred. That he didn’t see her doing ten shots earlier, That when he says “Can I do XYZ” that she says yes. That she asks if she can do ABC with him. That she initiates things. That ETC ETC ETC

               He would have a reasonable belief in consent based on her words and actions. I don’t know the law where you live but having a reasonable belief in consent is a defense to assault charges where I live.

            6. And the fact that you think being in a committed relationship has a protective factor for your son is delusional and revealing about your views on consent. Just because a girlfriend has consented previously DOES NOT provide evidence of future consent. Or protect from the litany of false rape allegations that you apparently believe to be such a problem. It makes zero difference if it’s a committed girlfriend or a random hook up at a college party – consent is consent.

            7. That all sounds reasonable, Not Anon Above. Just so you know, he could see those things AND she could wake up and not remember anything. That is the part I am trying to get across. She doesn’t have to have ten shots. She could have had very little to drink (See CountC above). His reasonable belief does not mean she wasn’t in a black out. And I would be okay with his actions if she were. Wouldn’t you?

            8. Of course his reasonable belief in consent doesn’t preclude the remote possibility that she was in a blackout state despite having relatively little alcohol to drink. But what on earth is your point? Having s*x with someone when you have a reasonable belief that they are able to consent, and of legal age etc etc, is not a criminal act. I liternally said above “He would have a reasonable belief in consent based on her words and actions. I don’t know the law where you live but having a reasonable belief in consent is a defense to assault charges where I live.”

               I honestly have no idea what kind of point you think you’re making.

            9. The problem is that perhaps it can be a defense to assault charges, but that means your son has still been accused.

               I just want to reiterate that I have been blackout and happy, responsive, did not slur speech, may have pre-gamed so no one would have any idea how much I had actually drank, etc. I say yes, I initiate, I do all of the above. And I saw that in all my friends in college. I think the crossover between blackout and passed out is a lot smaller than you think it is.

         5. Not Anon Above, you are very angry. Cursing. Calling me names. None of which is nice. I just happen to think that sex means something so it should take place in a committed relationship. Of course that isn’t a protection. Now, please see a doctor about your anger. I am just trying to teach you something. And I think you learned now. Because you know know that your son could see “That she’s happy and responsive. That she says she likes something when he asks her if she does. That her speech isn’t slurred. That he didn’t see her doing ten shots earlier, That when he says “Can I do XYZ” that she says yes. That she asks if she can do ABC with him. That she initiates things. That ETC ETC ETC” and the woman could still be in a blackout.

            1. You are being obstinate, that is why Not Anon Above is getting belligerent. If their son or your son had sex with a woman who appeared to be enthusiastically consenting, then, yes, they would probably meet the legal definition of having obtained consent and have a legal defense. However, that still wouldn’t change the fact that the woman didn’t consent. You can’t consent if you are blacked out, even in a conscious black out state. So practically it is rape, even if the boy doesn’t know it. He is absolved because he wasn’t able to know what it really is, but the fact is someone incapable of giving consent had sex. It’s like with statutory rape laws. Thee is an age where someone is too young to give consent, psychologically incapable, because of immaturity, power dynamics, cultural pressures etc. Even if the underage person wants to have sex, they are not legally capable of prolonging consent to do so. In the blackout scenario, the women are not capable because of a fundamental lack of awareness of what is happening to them, of events taking place etc. even though it might not legally be raps, a person in a blackout state is fundamentally incapable of giving consent. By teaching young people enthusiastic consent or similar boundaries, we lessen the chance that someone is “accidentally” raped, for lack of a better word.

         6. Not non Above, you must not have read the posters who seem to think they would know.

   5. For everyone who would prefer that their sons get to have sex whenever and with whomever they want, consider that only 5% of rapes are even reported and much of that is due to attitudes like this – “but you said yes even though you were drinking.” “Didn’t you want it?” “Well, it seems like you were both drunk.” Here’s an idea – teach your sons not to have sex with drunk women. Why is that so controversial? Seriously, why is that a hard concept?

      1. +1000 Anon @ 12:06

      2. Who on here said that? And, what do you mean by drunk? Like should he have an intoxilizer? Or should they just both abstain after one beer or glass of wine? That would be safest, wouldn’t it?

         1. Yes, that would be way safer for all of the sons.

      3. Agree that that’s what actually has to happen vs. asking questions and getting “enthusiastic consent” with someone who is drunk and could be blackout. That’s a complicated line though. I know a lot of people who want to hook up with someone else and use alcohol as liquid courage.

      4. This is a major change in social norms. As someone who cannot drink alcohol, it’s typical for a new date’s face to fall when I tell him.

      5. So, I was just thinking. A person could be in a black out and have non-consensual sex and then, while driving home in that blackout, hit and kill someone and go to prison for it. A rape victim in prison!

         1. Different criminal offenses have different legal standards for guilt and different defenses available.

            signed, your high school civics class

            1. Of course. You need intent to be convicted of homicide but not rape or DUI. So, you could be wasted and be convicted of rape or DUI. But you cannot consent to sex. Just an observation. Of course, a 15 year old girl can’t consent to sex but she can go to prison for life for murder in certain circumstances.

            2. “You need intent to be convicted of homicide but not rape or DUI.”

               That’s not correct. Even the most basic Google search will explain that to you. I’m done with this thread. You’re clearly a troll.

            3. Ms. Google-lawyer, google general intent vs. specific intent. And then tell me what cases you found where the defendant was found not guilty of DUI or sexual battery because of intoxication. And a 15 year old girl will still go to prison for murder. Because she is old enough to go to adult prison, but not old enough to have sex if she wants. That is a fact. Trolly-o.

   6. I’m going to leave the below article as a general reply because I don’t know where to place this. To all the anons on here who are arguing that it’s not a consent issue to be in a blackout state, even if ultimately it would appear that a person is giving consent, I’m ashamed of two things: your inability to consider that this scenario would still be wrong, even if not legally actionable, and your inability to just assign yourselves user names so we would know who is saying what. I agree with whichever anonymous poster or posters discussed enthusiastic consent. The article below describes why this concept is important, some of the issues with educating the public sbout this and the issues with implementing it. It is still, however, as far as I know, one of the more comprehensive philosophies for ensuring that all participants in a sexual encounter are doing so of their own free will. Make what you will of it.

      http://www.xojane.com/issues/affirmative-consent-study

      1. No, not wrong. And I find it disgusting that so many women think a normal healthy decent man is a rapist when faced with a women in a black out when he has no idea that she is in a blackout. Disgusting.

         1. I understand that you are threatened by this idea. Please see my other comment below for some of my reasoning etc. Its like when we discuss cases of murder and death: we ascribe different value to premeditated murder, murder as a crime of passion, murder when mitigated by mental illness and involuntary manslaughter. At the core, all of them result in the taking of a life. Some will get you ruled innocent or will ascribe a lighter sentence, but they all result in the taking of a life. With unconsented sex in the “conscious” blackout scenario, it is still at its core non-consensual sex. The woman can’t consent, not in the sense that consent is a decision made with your full awareness of the situation at hand. That means that we need to teach our men to better define the general situations that might resemble consent but may not be. To use my imperfect analogy with murder–this might be analogous to an involuntary murder charge-extenuating circumstances, no harm intended etc. but it still results in a violation and loss. It isn’t a Grey analogy but it is the only way I can come up with to show why I would consider this rape From’s moral perspective, even if it isn’t from a legal one. Msnslsughter is still being responsible for a death, even if that wasn’t the intention. Much the same for the idea of consent and the appearance of consent in the blackout situation described in this thread. The inability to recognize that leads is down a dangerous road.

      2. J.J. That article is really interesting. But it does not describe or define when another person is impaired. I think that would be helpful for college students.

         1. This is true. It highlights the difficulty in defining impairment. But based on the rest of my previous comment, I believe that a blackout, even a “conscious” blackout, is an impaired state. We will never be able to perfectly define it, as we don’t have a complete set of criteria to tell someone was blacked out, but walking and taking, until after the fact, but the closer we come to creating the idea of enthusiastic consent and instilling that in everyone, hopefully that will drastically reduce at least some gray area situations.

7. I’ve noticed a trend with people in my friend group of people dating someone for several months, it not working out for various reasons (guy wasn’t putting in enough effort, wasn’t over their ex, etc.) but then the guy comes back months later changed and now they have this seemingly happy 1 year + long term relationship. I know you never know whats going on in another persons life, this is a small sample size to begin with, etc. but I found this so interesting. Does anyone have experience (good or bad) or stories about taking a break from someone after realizing a problem or incompatibility then revisiting the relationship later?

   1. I’ve seen this a lot too. I’ve often wondered if it feels like it happens more than it does – maybe confirmation bias? I’ve casually dated dozens of perfectly nice guys where the timing was just off, but only a couple of them came back for round 2. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn’t, but I don’t regret trying.

      Imo it’s a sign of maturity. These two people are great together, but for some reason one or both of them are not in a great headspace for a relationship right then. Instead of struggling to make it work because DEEP DOWN HE’S SO AWESOME, they part ways and move on. Sometimes missing out on someone great is the kick in the pants you need to let go of your ex, or decide that you’re done acting like a college kid, or otherwise let go of whatever’s holding you back in life.

      1. I’ve had several guys resurface, but never took them up on the offer. My last two promising dudes ended for timing reasons, as did my last serious relationship. First guy was far from being over his ex, although he clearly wished he was. I figure(d) he might resurface, but so far it’s been over a year. I assume that he is continuing to date other women in an attempt to get over his ex (ha).

         Second guy and I are both in poor headspaces for relationships/ very busy. Or at least, I know I am, and that’s what he says. Story checks out and my gut impression is that that’s true, but there’s a part of me that thinks it’s just a nice way of letting me down.

         I haven’t had a relationship end for dramatic/incompatibility reasons in years. It’s always “timing.” Which is nice but sorta sad. I can also think of people that I passed on because of timing that I’d revisit if possible.

   2. When we were dating in college, my now-husband and I broke up for 9 months, during which time we both dated other people. The first two years of our relationship was kind of smotheringly intense and we both needed some breathing room to figure ourselves out and not be with each other all the time. So we broke up. Dated other people as I mentioned, but we stayed friendly, and eventually realized we really missed each other. We got back together, got engaged a year and a half later, and have been married for almost a decade. I think for us, there was never really a red-flag problem in our relationship, we were just too young and immature to be able to communicate our needs without hurt feelings and we both needed to grow up a bit.

      1. This is what happened for DH and me as well. Sometimes I think you need to take some time for yourself, date other people, and realize the value of what you left behind. When we got back together, the relationship was immediately so much healthier because we both had totally different mindsets. I’ve had friends who have had a similar experience a year or two into their marriages and I feel lucky that we had our reset before we made a bigger commitment.

   3. I had a guy try to do this with me. I was in the early days of dating my current SO (think, 2 or 3 dates, no discussion of exclusivity, we hadn’t even kissed) when he popped back up after virtually ghosting me. I had really thought bachelor #1 was The One; I’d put up with a lot, I’d waited for so long, I’d made so many excuses for him and his unwillingness to make me a priority in his life, because I thought we were just so freaking perfect together. And he was doing everything right that hadn’t been right before. He was engaged, he was proactive about making plans, he was still so handsome and smelled so good…and I realized that I was never going to get over the way he’d treated me before because I’d always be wondering if he’d do it again. Especially when compared with my current SO, who was being considerate, attentive, and doing the work to make our relationship a priority, even three dates in.

      I’ll probably always wonder what would have happened if I’d decided to take bachelor #1 back, and who knows–life is long, and although my SO and I are in it for the long haul, maybe I’ll end up single again at some point and look him back up. But the only regrets I have are brief flutters of what-if.

      Story from the other side. YMMV.

      1. I’m with you emeralds- I’ve been in a similar situation, and I could never stop wondering if he’d switch back into old habits, and I didn’t want that. I’m happier with someone who has always shown themselves to be considerate, etc.

   4. My husband and I broke up twice before we got married – once in college and once when I was in law school. In both breaks I casually (and once not casually) dated other people. He did much less so.

      Both breakups were initiated by him – the first because we graduated and moved away to different places and he wanted to start fresh I think – we kept in touch and on seeing each other, realized that this was a pretty good thing. Sort of your standard post-college breakup. The second breakup was a result of some pretty serious undiagnosed (not admitted to) depression on his part. Several months later we had a come to Jesus moment where he admitted some pretty dark stuff but also finally connected that, for example, his suicidal thoughts were not a result of his unhappiness with our relationship, but the result of depression that needed to be medicated. He got therapy and meds, we had lots of serious talks about where things were going (marriage or bust for me) and we got back together very eyes wide open. A year later we were engaged, three years later married. Now it’s 5 years later and things have been great.

      I think the first type of breakup happens a lot, particularly due to intervening life events and can easily result in a great second try if those life events rearrange themselves. But even though I’m a successful third time’s the charm person, I think I’d generally caution most people away from it. Unless there is a really compelling reason.

   5. I think if your friends have happily been with the person for a year-plus, then that sort of answers the question for them. If you’re considering whether to give an ex who’s resurfaced another shot, well…I’ve seen this not work out plenty of times. Often the two people weren’t well-suited to begin with, and the passage of time hasn’t done anything to change that. And some people return to old flames not because they genuinely want them back but because they just want a placeholder. So you have to pay attention to whether things have really changed.

   6. I have had a couple of friends do this, but with marriages. They were married, got divorced, then re-married the same person later. I do not really understand it, but I figure if they are happy, then I am happy for them.

   7. I’ve done this a couple times and won’t be doing it again. I’m of the “it’s called a breakup because it’s broken” mentality and unless the reason why it didn’t work out the first time if truly gone, I think history is bound to repeat itself.

   8. I’ve done the date/break up/get back together dance. I wouldn’t recommend making a habit of it because, yes, relationships end for a reason. That said, my husband and I originally dated for just a few months before breaking up. Over the next year and a half, we moved on with life but kept vaguely in touch. Once we were at a more compatible point in our lives (both out of grad school, with jobs), we got back together. Ten years later, I smile because I know there was a reason we just couldn’t quite quit each other :)

   9. Mine wasn’t as much of a break as a 13-year gap, but this is my story (which means, hi everyone I know in real life that reads this s!te!). DH and I met in college and dated for almost 3 years. He broke up with me just before I started law school because I was “too focused” on school and a career, while he was taking the extended approach to college. 13 years went by with no contact. Then I got three notices from LinkedIn that he had viewed my profile, so I invited him to connect. We met for coffee a few days later and have been together ever since, now 3+ years later. I think the biggest thing for us is in the intervening years is that we had found ourselves and our path, so it was no longer the youthful dreams and aspirations (reality might suck but at least you know what it is). It really took us both off guard that we settled into such a familiar, long-term relationship so quickly even though we were at such different points of our lives now. But it worked.

   10. Pretty much all of my exes have come back and wanted to try again. I always told them we could be friends, but made it clear that there was no possibility of a romantic relationship, but that is just my own personal stance. If something drastic changed or I really thought that we could work it out, I may have given them a second chance. I’m also at an age where I am only interested in seriously dating someone. I don’t have time to waste.

8. People who work in a nice-business-casual office, how much do you spend on dry cleaning each month? I have a few dry-clean-only dresses I don’t wear often because it leads to pricey dry cleaning bills. (I really need to clean after each wear, even with those dress shields). I probably spend $20 a month or so. I think I’m underestimating what people pay for it.

   1. I dry clean maybe every other month, but I wear dresses multiple times. I recently paid $38 to dry clean 2 silk dresses. I’m in the Boston area FWIW.

   2. I use Dryel instead of going to a dry cleaner and I usually wear slips under my dresses. If you have a big problem with sweat, maybe look into prescription deodorant?

   3. That’s it? In NYC I’d say I was racking up close to $60-$80/month in dry cleaning when I was in a business formal (suits almost every day) office. Closer to $50-$60 in nice business casual. I also hand washed a TON of sweaters though (cashmere, silk, etc.) so it would have been higher if I’d sent those to be cleaned.

   4. Nice-business-casual. I didn’t realize that that was the dress code term I’ve been looking for. I’ve been saying “you dont have to wear a suit but you have to look nice and probably wear a “third” piece.

   5. Most of my clothes are machine washable, but I dry clean my trousers once a month or so because they get cleaner than they do in a washing machine and I like the pressed look. I also have a couple dry clean only dresses that I dry clean after each wear (but I only wear them once a month or less). I probably spend at least $50 a month on dry cleaning (in a very LCOL area).

   6. I dry clean every 3 months and spend about $100.

   7. I dry clean “dry clean only” items (mostly wool skirts with a lining) probably once a year or even less, and in between dry cleanings I clean them every month or two by using a fabric brush, spraying with this https://www.amazon.com/Laundress-Delicate-Spray-Fluid-Ounce/dp/B007R9AROQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477582180&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=the+laundress+spray&psc=1 and then steaming them.

      Everything else goes in the washer on delicate.

   8. I hardly ever dry clean items, primarily when I’m putting them away for the season. I wash almost everything on delicate and hang to dry. For the items that do need to be dry cleaned, I extend wear by hanging the item up to air out and spritzing it with Febreeze. If they’re wrinkled, I’ll put them in the dryer on fluff with a dryer sheet.

9. Some sheath dresses come with ribbons on the inside of both sides of the top of the sleeves that allow it to hang from a hanger. They sometimes stick out and show. Am I supposed to be cutting those off?

   1. I wrap them around my bra or camisole strap to keep them from showing.

   2. I do unless the shoulder is made from delicate fabric (i.e., risk that the fabric will stretch due to the weight of the rest of the dress), in which case I keep and use the ribbons to bear some of the weight.

   3. I don’t think you are supposed to cut them off, but I do. Too many times I’ve had them poke out and it gets really annoying.

   4. I have some grippy hangers and cut them off unless they are needed (i.e., have to pick up off of floor b/c they are so slippery or have to iron b/c they have hung funny).

   5. I don’t need the ribbons to hang up the shirt or dress, I cut them off.

   6. It’s one on my mother’s main missions in life. She hates seeing them show and cuts them off with the tags. She also cuts the logo tags out of everything. (Including my son’s clothes so I don’t know what size they are…grrrr)

   7. I cut them off as I cannot stand them. I bought velveteen hangers from Costco that prevent things from sliding so they are no longer required.

10. Talk me into/give me permission for a treat…

    So much, so dearly do I long for a gas stove. I’ve been living with electric since I moved into my husband’s house a year ago. I bemoan it each day. I love to cook, perhaps more than any other hobby. This is the first time I’ve ever had electric, and while I’ve more or less gotten used to it, I hate how unreactive/slow/awful it is. Truly an every day annoyance.

    My birthday is this month and I want to put in a gas line and get a stove. We’ve had the work quoted from two contractors we’ve used before – 900 for one we don’t like/trust, 1500 for one we do – we’d go with the latter. It looks like you can get a pretty decent stove these days for less than $800. Samsung sells a 5-burner with a 17,000 BTU high-burner, with good reviews from consumer reports etc, for $600. So all in this would be less than $2500. That’s more than I’ve ever really spent on an “object” or a single home repair.

    Our finances are mixed. We have joint checking/credit card/savings at a fixed amount–with the rest of the savings going into our own accounts. Hubby is fine with this project but super disinterested, so it is my expense. He’d chip in $500 as a birthday gift and the rest would be on me. A little business-y. But I’m fine with that (and not looking for advice on this aspect of it). I can afford this, in cash without dipping into emergency savings, but it’s still a huge splurge – on par with a vacation. and part of me cringes at how I could also spend this money on a lovely vacation. But given the cost-per-use math here, years of use… we’re taking a few cents a day. And an investment in the house. And someday the stove can be upgraded. Do it! Yeah!? We are hosting all of the holidays this year and all I want for Christmas is…a real flame under my dutch oven.

    1. It it expensive but it sounds like you have thought it through and would find great value in a gas stove. I say do it! Particularly as you will use it literally every day. I guess the only reason not to do it if you were thinking of moving soon, but if not — you have my permission. :)

    2. You can afford it, it would improve your quality of life on a daily basis – this seems like a great place to spend money. This is a splurge, sure, but one that is well worth while. Do it and don’t look back!

       1. You’re going to be happy every time you turn on that gas burner. You can afford it. Get the stove.

       2. This. Do it!!

    3. Do it.

    4. Go buy the stove.

    5. I have never regretted buying something that I love and use a lot, no matter how expensive. Happy birthday, new stove owner!

    6. Do it – electric is the worst. My husband asked me what I want when I finish my PhD and I said a new oven. Sadly our flat won’t accommodate an AGA but I’m looking forward to the upgrade. It seems silly but it is something you’ll use everyday.

    7. Do it! It makes you happy, you can afford it, and it’s not even frivolous but actually useful! When the time comes you want to sell your home, I guarantee an electric stove would be a drawback to others, too.

       1. Interesting, I just bought a house (well my offer was accepted last night) and I don’t even know if the stove is gas or electric. But it is new whatever it is.

    8. Do it!! I live in a MCOL area, and my quote for the gas line was nearly $10k (it would have to go all the way down the street to reach my house).

    9. DO IT.

       I moved recently to a house with a very fancy electric stove, and every time I turn it on, I resent how nice it is. I want it to die so I can justify getting a gas one. Even the fancy electric can’t hold a candle to gas.

    10. You absolutely have my permission! This will provide a meaningful (and practical) upgrade to your every day life.

    11. Get the stove. As someone who loves to cook, it’s amazing.
        (while you’re at it, get a nice cast iron skillet.)

    12. If I could figure out a solid venting solution, I would go buy a gas stove today. The electric one that came with my house is the worst and I even have a gas line right behind the stove.

        You should do it!

    13. I totally get this! I also hate my electric stove. It’s so much easier to cook with gas. I say go for it. If you love to cook, you’ll never regret it.

    14. Oh heck yes get a gas stove! I’m a huge cook too and I agree this purchase would totally up your quality of life.

    15. I say go for it. If you lived near me, I have a gas cooktop I’m looking to get rid of! But it’s probably not as nice as the one you are looking at.

    16. Do it! I have done this in the last 3 homes I have lived in, gas line and all, and it is totally worth the expense! My one recommendation is to not buy the cheapest gas stove you can find. Look online for a good used one, or commit to spending the money to buy a decent one.

    17. If you like to cook, gas is the only choice. It will pay you back in joy every single day. Do not even hesitate.

    18. 1) Do it

        2) Only $600 for the range?? Wow. My kitchen has a Viking, courtesy of the previous owners, and I do not find it at all impressive. You’re making me want to replace it!

    19. Yes! Definitely do it! Also, you might see if your area has a “scratch and dent” store. We got our brand new fridge from one of these for 55% off the original price because there was a small scratch on the side. In our house, that side is up against the wall, so we didn’t care. (And I have three kids and a husband–it is going to get scratched and dinged up anyway.) It had the same warranty and all of that.

        1. +1 I have gotten amazing deals on appliances this way – I’ve had good luck at a sears outlet

    20. Do it.

        Signed,
        Considering an induction range because my HOA will reject placing a gas line to my unit.

    21. If cooking is truly your hobby, like you do it over half the week, then go for it! My cooking greatly improved once we moved and had a gas stove. After work I love to cook while drinking a beer – it really calms me, and soothes a bad work day.

    22. Do it. Gas is so much better for cooking. Check out homedepot online for deals on appliances.

    23. I have the WORST little electric stove in my apartment. I used to love cooking a lot more but I find myself doing more baking since living here. I long for the day when I can have a gas stove to make roasted red peppers directly on the stove and a fridge that dispenses filtered water so I don’t have to F*CK with the damn Brita. DO IT!!!

        signed,

        My rent is so low in a HCOL area and I have literally nothing else to complain about but still am so jealous.

11. Need help with bloating . . .

    I didn’t used to deal with bloating during my time of the month before. Well, maybe I did, but it was barely noticible for the most part. Now it’s gotten progressively bad, and last night I was fed up and miserable. Not that there was anything wrong with wearing yoga pants to watch Supergirl and hockey with my boyfriend, but the fact that my go-t0 jeans don’t fit at all is an issue, it’s like I have a different body right now! And it doesn’t help that I’m also craving salt like crazy. The other day all I wanted was a big bowl of Maruchan ramen.

    I’m going in for my annual BC consult in December and I’ll certainly bring this up, but until then, I have to get through this ladycycle and the next one, and with Thanksgiving there’s no telling how much I’ll balloon up in November!

    So, who has a bloating remedy they swear by? I’ll pick up some diuretics at CVS today, but I’m already going to the whiz palace a lot so I’m not sure if they’ll be the best source of action. Are there any foods or vitamin supplements that might help?

    1. Your doctor prescribed you diuretics for this? Kinda odd, and not typical treatment. You will likely get dehydrated so keep drinking.

       1. I meant something OTC like Midol, but I get your point, I won’t bother.

    2. Eat foods that have a high water content (most green veggies, melons) instead of relying on OTC diurectics.. Cut back on processed foods because those have a lot of hidden sodium. I get constipated right before my cycle and that can increase that bloated feeling. Probiotics and produce tend to help that.

    3. Magnesium – eat a few (only a few) Brazil nuts or take a supplement. Drink a lot of water. Take some psyllium husk if it’s that kind of bloating. Eat lots of fruits and veggies, exercise, and all that healthy living stuff.

    4. No help, but just wanted to say this exact thing is happening to me too!! It’s only happened in the last two months. Big sigh. I too am going to try to switch BC and see if it helps….

    5. Do you eat much dairy? Could it be lactose intolerance?

       1. +1.

          I find I can be more sensitive to slight intolerances during that time.

          cutting back on dairy/sugar and adding more lemon in water helps me during the week before and during my period.

12. What is everyone wearing today / favorite outfit this week? Just bored and looking for ideas.

    1. Black skinny jeans, beige/rose oversized cashmere sweater, chunky crème cashmere infinity scarf. Gold ball studs, wedding band/engagement ring, gold watch. And slippers because I work from home (to be replaced with black riding boots when I go out later, plus a blazer, coat, gloves and hat).

       1. Girl you are stylin for everyday and especially for working from home. JEANS AT HOME! I’m impresssed!!! Love this outfit!

          1. Aww, thanks. I started working from home 1.5 months ago (geographic relocation due to husband’s job to a city where my company has no office). It is awesome. But I’m one of those people (weirdos?) who needs to put on real clothes in order to be productive, so I’m still dressed for the office :)

    2. I have not been knocking it out of the park with outfits this week. Today I’m huddling for warmth in black skinny cords, riding boots, black shell, tunic-length heather gray sweater, snow leopard belt, and a giant black pashmina. Standard jewelry–pearl earrings, a couple of bangles, and a couple of rings.

       1. And I’m ‘not knocking it out of the park’ for the opposite reason – it will be 96 degrees in my part of AZ today. I’m so over summer clothes.

    3. Cranberry-colored corduroys. Black tissue-weight cowl neck jcrew 3-quarter sleeve tee. Greige low-heel suede boots. Black leather tank watch, Silver bangles, Silver twist drop earrings. It’s cold in New England, but I’ve sworn not to wear tights until November 1st…

       1. I was so close but broke down and wore tights this week. I bought some cute herringbone patterned ones to make me feel better about it though.

          1. I love patterned tights both herringbone and also diamond patterned ones.

    4. Black dress, sheer dark gray stockings, black suede heels, black cardigan. I want to say “it’s one of those days,” but it always is.

       1. I’m pretty close – black sheath dress, gray fleece tights (#haterstotheleft), gray booties and a gray cardigan. Funky but small silver earrings. I’m boring and I love it.

    5. Gray slacks, navy tee, green suede jacket. Black flats, green pearl studs, white gold & diamond wedding set, sterling silver amethyst & opal ring. I went for my usual “one up from business casual” style, since I have a meeting with the auditors this afternoon.

       1. Black and white long sleeve striped dress, black cardigan sweater, chunky yellow knit scarf, black tights, black ankle booties.

    6. Teal corduroy…shirt! Black ponte pants, black belt, black socks. Riding boots. Mostly-ivory scarf. 2 gold bracelets.

    7. Grey knee-length A-line skirt. Long sleeve wool cowl neck shirt, light blue with dark blue spots. Black ballet flats, no tights because I live in the south, but a navy cardigan at my desk because my office is freezing.

    8. Burgundy cowl neck silk shell, black long drape-y cardigan with 3/4 sleeves, burgundy ankle pants, black suede high heeled booties. Black leather belt. My standard jewelry (watch, diamond c0cktail ring, Tahitian pearl studs).

       I LOVE LOVE LOVE that I can now wear my ankle pants in winter with booties with a higher ?neck (that meets my pants). No more pants in the snow. I love my collection of all-season booties (mostly La Canadienne).

    9. Black 3/4 sleeve Vince Camuto knee length Aline dress (with pockets!) and teal floral print block heels I picked up at Goodwill last week. Long necklace.

    10. I woke up late so grabbed a dress and blazer that aren’t my favorite.

        Tuesday was my favorite outfit this week. Grey-blue Maggie Chin 3/4 sleeve dress with ruching at the side of the waist and a very interesting top/collar, with a yellow faux hair skinny belt, brown-based leopard print D’orsay heels and a matching plaid blanket scarf for when I got cold.

    11. Black wrap sweater, black pencil skirt (with hot pink lining – just for me but it makes me happy), black tights and fawn suede over the knee boots with block heels, pave diamond hoops, multi-strand pearl necklace with chain/pave art deco clasp, engagement/wedding rings and my grandmother’s amethyst/diamond right hand ring. The boots have been a big hit (they are new).

    12. My outfits have been sort of boring this week, but I’m in love with my new light pink trench coat. I’ve had a gray and white striped scarf for years but it has always looked somewhat off when I wear it with my black coat. It looks perfect with the pink coat. It is the Abingdon Trench from Boden. I actually got it last spring but didn’t get to wear it before the weather got too hot.

    13. Grey slacks, light pink shell, white cardigan. Wedding ring, stud earrings. Hung this outfit in the closet at the beginning of the week and just “put it on” this morning. By the time I get to Thursday, I have no creativity left!

    14. Teal a-line midi skirt in a nubby sort of fabric, tucked-in slightly sheer black button down (an Express Portofino) over a black tank, black threader earrings, black high heel pumps. Silver watch, and my engagement ring (white gold with black sapphire). Currently topped by a gigantic black pashima (really a blanket if we’re being honest) because I’m huddled at my desk and the a/c is running in the building.

    15. I loved my outfit yesterday. Ivory/navy Breton stripe top, navy moto jacket, olive BR Sloan ankle pants, multicolored scarf, red handbag, and these awesome shiny gold tassle loafers: http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/steve-madden-kate-loafer-pumps-women/4453252?cm_mmc=google-_-productads-_-Women%3AShoes%3APumps-_-5239926&rkg_id=h-bd63b51b4768975cab65dbdae6827c59_t-1477586477&adpos=1o2&creative=39387863033&device=c&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAjwy8bABRD5osXMovTHpmQSJACfZY0F9G1I8yOdZ7jah_r2DzdPiuWNM42un39deyN21imkqxoCnxfw_wcB

    16. I feel like I’m barely hanging on today due to late rehearsals every night and still getting to work by 8 am every morning. But… I will be meeting the 4th of 4 candidates for an administrative position today so I needed to dress nicely (but still somewhat casual).

        Wearing a black knit dress with white stripes, a black cardigan, black hoops with diamond trim, Via Spiga Deanna block heel mary janes in the navy/black jacquard print.

    17. Winter white Boden shift, black tights, black Vince Camuto ankle booties, red LOFT cardigan with sparkly buttons. Diamond studs, Apple watch and wedding band/e-ring. Really feeling my outfit today :)

        1. Black pullover top, grey skirt, beige fishnet tights, black knee boots, wedding ring, bracelet, stud earrings,

13. So we have options for low deductible and higher deductible health plans. Lower is $7500 premium for the year with a $1000 deductible and max out of pocket of $6000. Higher is $3000 deductible with $3600 in premiums and $8000 max out of pocket. Copay on both is 20%

    Having a baby next year which I think costs about $9000 with a C-Section closer to $15,000 (previous deliveries didn’t require a C).

    I’m better off higher deductible, right?

    1. Yes.

       1. Thank you.

    2. First some terminology.

       Out-of-pocket maximum: The most you will have to pay for covered medical expenses in a plan year through deductible and coinsurance before your insurance plan begins to pay 100 percent of covered medical expenses.

       Premium: The amount the policy-holder or their sponsor (e.g. an employer) pays to the health plan to purchase health coverage.

       Deductible: The amount that the insured must pay out-of-pocket before the health insurer pays its share.

       Possible Answer: If your employer is paying the premium and not you, then you are better off with the $7500 plan. You will have to pay $1000 before your insurance kicks in, but no more than $6000 for the entire year. For example, your C-Section would NOT cost more than $6,000. With the $3600 plan, you will have to pay $3000 before your insurance kicks in and you would have to pay $8000 for your C-Section.

       If you are paying the premium, what percentage?

       1. Should have been more clear the premiums is the employee portion of the premium. The numbers above are what I am paying.

       2. Oh also, I’m planning on a v birth this time again. Since that is obviously not always a given, I quoted the higher c rate to see if it makes a difference (I don’t think it does though…)

          1. Ah, okay. My apologies. Because under that scenario the first respondeder had the right answer. Your costs to get coverage and have insurance kick in is $8,500 ($7,500 + $1,000) vs. $6,600 ($3,600 + $3,000). Moreover, the max you would pay for the year is $13,500 vs. $11,600. The $13,500 is the $8,500 + the additional $5,000 you have to pay to get to the maximum out of pocket cost ($1k +$5k = $6k). The $11,600 is the $6,600 you pay + the additional $5,000 to get to the maximum out of pocket cost ($3k +$5k = $8k).

             Kinda weird that both plans use an additional $5k after the deductible to get to max out of pocket. Good luck.

             1. Thanks.

             2. But man those numbers suck when you make under six figures and FMLA/maternity leave is entirely unpaid.

             3. High deductible plans normally come with HSAs. Your employer probably contributes something to it, and you can contribute money so your health care expenses will at least be pre-tax.

             4. Unfortunately ours isn’t HSA eligible for some reason, HR couldn’t articulate why. We are also self-insured so I don’t imagine that they will be kicking in any more. We don’t get a 401k match of any kind either, so even if we do get an HSA eligible policy, I imagine it would be strictly employee funded.

          2. Hey OP. We had this problem with our ER for the HSA equivalent for parking and transportation. I think someone finally pointed out that it doesn’t really cost the ER anything and is a great benefit for ees that comparable companies were offering. Maybe research what it takes for an ER to set up an HSA and make a presentation to the HR department. Let them know it’s a no cost way to really boost morale. Also, look into tax deductions for medical expenses. Get a sense of the parameters and if you could qualify, be sure to track your expenses.

14. LA/Santa Monica trip in say Feb — can anyone give me ideas for what you could do to occupy 4-5 days for a mixed age group of travelers — 30s-70s. I’ve always wanted to go to Santa Monica (can’t point to why — just seems like quintessential Cali to me and I’ve spent practically no time on the west coast) and I feel like by Feb. I’ll appreciate getting out of the snowy east coast. However, my idea of a vacation is literally sitting around, people watching, and wandering to wherever seems interesting. Yet the group I’d be with would NOT be ok with that and some of them – esp. the older ones – are very “go go go” even though they don’t end up having the same energy as they did when they were 30, obviously. To them sitting at a sidewalk café, drinking coffee and watching people go by is “wasting time.”

    So can someone give me a rundown of what they’d do for 4 days in LA? We’ll have a rental car so we can drive to get to things but don’t want to do long car trips — i.e. no Pacific Coast Highway stuff. And I don’t know if this is available in LA or not but this is not a group that will go out into the woods, hiking, nature etc. It’s a group that very much prefers traditional tourism, sightseeing, shopping etc. I personally love architecture and buildings so I think we’d love any kind of tour like that esp. since west coast architecture looks so different. Recommendations?

    All I can think of is Rodeo Drive

    1. Getty Museum?

       San Simeon?

       LA County Art Museum?

       1. San Simeon is hundreds of miles away. It’s awesome but definitely not LA.

          Definitely do the Getty. In fact, I’d do both Gettys — the big one and the Villa in Malibu, which is a short drive from Santa Monica. I like the Georgian Hotel in Santa Monica — right across the street from the beach.

          Venice Beach is a riot.

          If you’re into that kind of thing, the L.A. Conservancy has some great architectural walking tours. I did one of Union Station and it was really interesting, plus it’s right across the street from Olvera Street.

          For shopping and sightseeing, Universal CityWalk and the Beverly Center and the Grove. Old Town Pasadena is great and Pasadena has some great stuff like the Gamble House and the Huntington Library and Gardens. And Old Town Pasadena is good for shopping and dining.

          1. Also Pasadena and neighboring San Marino have some fantastic residential neighborhoods that are fun to drive through.

             1. I love the Norton Simon art museum in Pasadena.

             2. Gah! Can’t believe I left that out!

          2. I love the Huntington Library/Gardens and the Descanso Gardens too. Excellent recommendation!

    2. The beach is nice in Santa Monica, but otherwise I find it pretty bland/chain stores available everywhere, etc. I always recommend a visit to Venice on this site. So much more going on in terms of food/wine/shopping. Check out Abbott Kinney for a plethora of shops, restaurants (Gjelina) coffee shops and some art book stores. I think there’s some galleries, too. For museums you can’t go wrong with the Getty, LACMA or the Broad downtown.

       If you’re into it, I always take my guests on a movie tour of LA. Not the “Tom Cruise lives here” type of tour- but I have a fun book that tells where everything was filmed. I’m of the age that my friends love seeing the apartment building and fire escape that Richard Gere climbed in Pretty Woman. It’s always fun.

       1. The book- http://www.skylightbooks.com/book/9780767916356

       2. Santa Monica: a nice place to live, and the beach and bluffs are very nice, but I dunno what all these tourists are really doing. You could have some fun on the pier for a while, playing carnival games and riding the Ferris wheel. If you want shopping I would send you down to Venice (Abbot-Kinney Blvd as mentioned above) rather than Santa Monica’s 3rd Street (although thousands of tourists would differ). We do have some very nice restaurants though. Tar & Roses, Fig, Rustic Canyon, Huckleberry for breakfast.

          I know you said they don’t do nature, but I always take people to the Huntington Library and Gardens in San Marino. There’s art and formal gardens and it’s lush and beautiful and green, and you can have tea at the tea house.

          1. It’s not really nature. It’s sightseeing, amirite?

             Also the Langham Hotel is very nearby and if the weather is nice it’s great to have lunch by the pool. Plus they have an amazing brunch with all the usual suspects (carving station, waffle bar, omelette bar) plus dim sum. Yum!!

    3. My first instinct was to recommend riding beach cruisers along the strand but then I read your second paragraph so maybe not. I’ve been wanting to see the storybook houses near the Hollywood sign.

    4. Check out the cupcakes and cashmere blog – lots of guides to LA there. The blog skews younger but the travel suggestions are good.

       1. +1 Her blog annoys me in a big way, but there’s no denying she has good recs for LA, especially for restaurants.

    5. Both Gettys, LACMA, a concert at the Walt Disney Concert Hall (or even just visiting it since your group is into architecture–it has a cafe that is open for lunch), a TV taping.

       1. Oh, and the Broad Museum is new and super popular. Try to have lunch or dinner at Otium next door but make sure to get reservations way in advance.

    6. A fun combo is LACMA, La Brea Tar Pits, and the Farmer’s Market.

       1. And add The Grove if you want to shop and dine

    7. If you’re willing to spend a little money, taking the Paramount Studio Tour has been a HUGE hit with my relative when they have come to visit. You have to reserve in advance but usually there’s good availability. They drive you around in golf carts so even my grandparents, who aren’t up for much walking, had a great time. The quality depends a little bit on the tour guide you get – I had one guide who was really interesting and knew tons about movie and TV history, and another who was newer and just recited the standard tour. But it’s still fun to see the sets and back lots, and the groups are only 8-10 people or so.

       1. +1 to this

          Also the Warner Brothers Studio has a tour that is smaller and more intimate than Universal Studios. And if you want to drop a giant bundle of cash for a really fabulous tour, do the VIP Experience at Universal Studios. When I did it a few years ago we got to actually walk onto the set of Parenthood, which was filming at the time. We got to explore the prop department, which is absolutely beyond description. Lunch in the commissary, whisked past the lines onto all the best rides, and so on. Ridic expensive but OMG amazeballs.

15. Any cords good for pears (or are very curvy cut)? With a medium or higher rise? The ON cords fit my hips / thighs, but don’t come up high enough on me and actually fall off :(

    1. The Loft curvy cut ones are great. Come in a variety of leg styles, and are pretty good quality. Also perennially on sale.

    2. You could try the NYDJ line at Nordstrom. They were too high rise for me and just felt ?dowdy, but my pear figure may be a little different than yours. Order a couple sizes to try as they run large. Kut from the Kloth are also popular at Nordstrom. Both of these brands are reasonable priced and go on sale frequently, not too thin in cords, and work with pears.

       I also wait for sales at Loft and they have a curvy line (blanking on the name…) that are passable. But on the thinner side.

       1. Kut from The Kloth make me look very Kardashian.

          Also agree on NYDJ — wearable, but definitely a C+/B- in the Loving It department.

          Le Sigh. Off to Loft . . .

16. Does anyone else deal with having a non-secure attachment style? I’m Fearful/Anxious-Avoidant and my partner is Secure. He’s wonderful, but I struggle with getting overly critical and distant because intimacy is terrifying. If you’ve dealt with this or know someone who has, I’d love to hear your experience and advice. Yes I’m in therapy, reading self help books, communicative with my partner, etc etc.

    1. Seeking similar advice. Most non-secure attachment advice focuses on anxious women and avoidant men. Has anyone found useful advice for avoidant women? (long-time single, unsurprisingly)

       1. And most advice is directed at anxious-preoccupied people because they’re seen as the “victims” who will seek advice, whereas avoidants are seen as jerks who don’t want help. The reality is that, if you’re at all self aware, being avoidant is also extremely painful. Worst of all, Fearful-Avoidants are just written off as crazy. I hate it.

    2. Hey – I don’t know if this is useful or not, but I liked Stan Tatkin’s books – “Wired for Love” and “Wired for Dating.” He’s definitely less judgmental of avoidant types (they’re called Islands, in his taxonomy) than some of the other books out there (e.g., Attached).

       1. It is! Thank you!! Going to listen to his TedTalk.

17. I’m determined to get a pair of black wedges and I’m looking for suggestions.

    I tried Kate Spade Amory but the 8 was too tight in the toe and the 8.5 squeaked with every step and felt a little loose. Here’s a link for visual: http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/kate-spade-new-york-amory-round-toe-wedge-pump-women/4301532

    I don’t like the logos on the toe caps of the ToriBurch shoes.

    I ordered the Coach Roni wedge and they looked gorgeous and fit great, but the lining is synthetic so my feet are getting sweaty. I’ve always had problems with synthetic shoes for this reason and thought I could get away with it this time. But 2 hours into the day, it’s an issue again. Here’s a link for visual: http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/coach-roni-wedge-women/4324511

    So, my choices are: (a) order another pair of Kate Amory and hope they don’t squeak, (b) just accept the Tori logo look, (c) something else I haven’t thought of, or (d) give up. Any suggestions?

    1. Have the size 8 stretched in the toe.

    2. I have some Anne Klein sport wedges that I love. they are very lightweight and comfortable.

    3. What about the Cole Haan Catalina wedge?

       https://www.amazon.com/Cole-Haan-Womens-Catalina-Wedge/dp/B000MLBP7E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477583449&sr=8-1&keywords=cole%2Bhaan%2Bwedge%2Bpump&th=1

       1. If the Kate Spade is too tight in the toe, the Cole Haan will be way too tight in the toe.

          1. I generally find that the wide versions of Cole Haan work for me. I normally wear a 7.5 or an 8, but I can wear a 7.5C in Cole Haan.

    4. Aquitalia is the nicest shaped wedge heel I have found. Also comfortable, and weather proof.

       Here’s a link to one at Nordstrom. I got mine classic black leather at Nordstrom at deep discount during a sale.

       http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/aquatalia-zana-weatherproof-wedge-pump-women/4197922?origin=keywordsearch-personalizedsort&fashioncolor=BLACK

    5. Vince Camuto. I had the same issue – used to have the Kate Spade, had the Tory Burch Eddie before they stopped making them, and now have the Vince Camuto ones because I like the height and the lack of a logo.

       1. CatToo
          French Sole New York has some round toed wedges that have really grown on me. Mine are a couple of years old, so no link.

18. In style or not? I have these in black/burgundy two tone.
    https://www.etsy.com/sg-en/listing/263680013/free-ship-etienne-aigner-vintage-gazebo

    1. they look a little dowdy to me (sorry!).

       1. more than a little.

    2. I do like the block heel trend, but I agree with Two Cents. I think the block heel + square toe is impossible to pull off.

    3. Frump City, sorry.

    4. I’ll disagree with the pack and say these are adorable. If you like them, rock them!

       1. Yes! Do it!

    5. I think it depends on your style. If you can rock the vintage look, I say go for them.

       1. +1

          This

19. Talbots

    1. Sorry; meant for Cords for Pears

20. Back to the question yesterday about networking and informational interviews…

    Some pro tips of things NOT to do when someone takes the time to have a call with you (all were just done by someone on a call with me):

    1) Don’t start the convo by saying you only have 20 minutes. Do thank the person for their time and tell them that you understand how busy THEY are. (not trying to be a b*tch here but that REALLY threw me off)

    2) Don’t then say “so I just wanted some general advice…” – Do be specific in your questions.

    3) Don’t go into the call blind. Do some research before the call so that you have a bit of background on the person.

    4) Don’t mistake who you’re speaking with for the person she replaced 2 years ago. Goes back to research.

    Mini rant. Sorry. I love helping but it’s so frustrating when people go into a call lazy.

    1. Yikes. I’ll add one. If you are emailing with me for information purposes and I say — let’s set up a call it’ll be easier to talk on the phone, DON’T be that millennial who says — oh no, I don’t want to bother you, I’ll keep emailing you questions. I have a job and a life and while your 20-something self may think it is easier to go back and forth electronically, it is easier for me to pick up a phone and since you are the one that wants my advice, I think you should defer.

    2. I just got a rather odd spam mail from a graduate of a law school I have no relationship to, and the person addressed it to “Mr.” I have a photo on my firm website where you probably got my information. Such a fudgin pet peeve.

21. I recently received a job offer for next year after I finish grad school, and the firm is flying in new hires next week for some social/networking things Thursday through Saturday. They first emailed out about the dates over a month ago, but still no specific info about travel arrangements or scheduling. I checked in yesterday and got a response saying that I should hear soon. This is a week away. Is this unusual? I guess I’m a little surprised by the radio silence for weeks, and then a non-answer to my question.

    1. Do you mean they haven’t even bought your plane tickets yet? If so, that’s crazy. If you mean you have a plane ticket there and you just haven’t received any details about what you’ll be doing, eh, it’s a little disorganized but not unheard of.

       1. No, they haven’t bought plane tickets yet or really given any information other than which days the events will be on. She said they’d send info out very soon, but didn’t really specify, and we have jobs and other scheduling things to do, so I’m a little peeved by this. Also kind of paranoid that it means they don’t want me anymore, but I realize that’s ridiculous

22. I just need to be mad for a second: dealing with car dealerships should be a circle in Dante’s hell. I was calling a dealership for an out the door quote and whoever picked up decided this was the perfect time to lecture me about how dealerships ‘don’t like customers price shopping’ and ‘there’s typically only an 11% chance that customer will buy from the dealership’ and ‘what could you do to earn your business [other than give you an OTD quote]’ and I just hung up on him. I understand that a car dealership’s model is based on getting people in and trapping them for hours in inane pitches, but if a customer clearly doesn’t want to deal with that, why can’t they just lie and say they don’t have the car in stock? Was the patronizing talking down really necessary? Such a waste of a lunch break.

    1. Ughhh I have to buy a car in the next month and would like to do the same thing you were trying to do. I am so not looking forward to dealing with the salespeople to try and get the best deal.

    2. I hear you sister.

       Place a negative review about your experience on Yelp. And if you can be bothered, call that dealership back and ask to speak with the supervisor. Let them know what their employee said to you, how offensive it was, that there is now a 0% chance you will buy from that dealership, and you will advise your peers on social media the same.

       It’s time people get appropriate feedback for their bad behavior.

       1. Yes. Family friends of ours own dealerships and they are extremely competitive with each other. So if you call Jeep City A, I would call and tell the supervisor what happened. I’m willing to bet they bend over backwards for you because they are competing with Jeep City B as well as Volvo City A. (Also why whenever you visit one, you will get a deluge of calls and surveys afterwards, because customer service is pretty much the only edge up they have on any other dealership.

          I would say something like, “I was simply calling for information and got lectured. Here’s what happened… I thought you might want to know what a customer experiences when they call. Now, if you can help me with some information so I can learn a little bit more…” I’m guessing you get great service and help after that. Or at the very least, have useful information. You can also go to Volvo City A or Jeep City B and try to negotiate with the information you have. (“Hmm, I like it, but I just got quoted 5k less at Jeep City A… let me think about it.”)

    3. Try going to the “internet sales division” of the call dealership instead. All cars are listed online (usually with prices) and the sales people receive commission based on volume sold rather than receiving a % of each sale. We accidentally stumbled into the internet sales division of a dealership when I bought my last car and the experience was so much less stressful. We’d been price shopping for weeks and I was able to get a dealer driven new-ish model for less than what I was pricing 1-2 year old models.

       1. We’ve bought several cars this way and it’s been fairly easy.

       2. +1

          Also, it helps to arm yourself with numbers in advance. The last time I went car shopping, I made a spreadsheet to figure out what I could afford to pay for each model of car I was looking at (basically, I had a set amount I could pay for car + gas + insurance per month, so I had a formula where I could plug in the car’s mpg and the estimated insurance for the particular car and it would spit out my max monthly payment), and I literally went to the dealerships with a spreadsheet. The visit where I actually bought the car still took a while, but I didn’t have to deal with sales pitching and upselling nonsense, because I was really firm on what I was willing to pay, and made it clear it was a “meet the price or don’t, there is no upsell” kind of situation.

          1. Did you actually take laptop or tablet in with you?

             1. I had a printed-out spreadsheet where I’d already calculated my max price for each of the cars I was looking at, and I wasn’t interested in looking at any cars that weren’t on the list, so I didn’t have to do any on-the-fly calculations in the dealership, since if the car model wasn’t on the list, I wasn’t going to look at it anyway.

    4. Oh I don’t mind car shopping at all, there are such easy ways to do it. Do you know what car you want – or via car websites can you narrow it down so you can have a few cars and can specifically say — I need a Mazda 3, x model, x yr, automatic, with the tech package and it MUST be black?

       Bc then what you do is go to TrueCar — and look up what that exact car sold for in your area. You will see which dealerships sell higher or lower than others. Then you contact those dealerships — you can do it via TrueCar to ask for a quote on that exact combo of make/model/features you want. Typically they get back to you in minutes. If you don’t want to contact them through TrueCar — call the dealerships that appear the cheapest and ask if there is a salesmen who will work with you to price out a car bc you can’t come in/are out of town etc. or if there’s an internet sales division. They all have that capability now. So you email him exact features and everything and get a price that way. And in doing this you will see that certain dealerships are terrible, non responsive etc. while others are super responsive and want to make a sale.

       Point is you don’t step foot in the dealership until the deal is worked out and final. So you don’t sit through sales pitches and the “oh I have to go ask my manager” BS. You can even say to them that you WILL buy this car if they can have it and all related paperwork ready to go on X date so you can walk out the door with the car. This works better for buying a car; if you are leasing, sometimes the terms are what they are – but I have leased before through the above process and while they may not budge on terms, they have come up with “rebates” that have saved me $1000 here and there as well as thrown in some features for free that can cost another $500 or so, like GPS or whatever.

    5. A friend of mine runs a used car dealership that has limited high end vehicles on site, but also offers a service in which you can go to them and tell them what car you want, the features that are must haves, and how much you are willing to pay and they will go find it and have it shipped to you (price is inclusive of shipping and fees, so no nickel and diming). The trade off is that there is no haggling on the price, which was fine by me. It was such a stress free car-buying experience. I hung out with friends at the pool while they emailed me cars to casually review (I nixed the first 3 and bought the 4th one).

    6. I would have hung up. If you have a Costco membership, use their service to get an out-the-door quote. After the dealership called me, I took the quote to another dealer who knocked off some more money. Dealerships always try to lowball on trade-ins so I took my car to CarMax first and Honda matched the price.

    7. This is why I <3 Carvana.

    8. Look up Nicole Cliffe’s guide to buying a car without talking to a human! It should be in the Toast archives.

23. Stuck in moderation with a longer post – but it’s not that bad. Just do all your back and forth with them via email and do not step foot in the dealership until you have a final price negotiated. Saves you time and sanity and you don’t sit through the — well, let’s see what my manager will let me do — nonsense.

24. Boden fans–is 25% off a good sale, or fairly common? Wondering if I need to jump on this today.

    1. It’s a pretty good sale. I’d say they get to 25% off a few times a year. The bigger problem is that they tend to sell out of common sizes quickly when they have sales.

    2. Pretty good. 20% is common. 30% is rare.

Comments are closed.