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In the “everything old is new again” department, these tassel loafers are bestsellers at J.Crew. I like the very slight taper to the shoe so it's a bit of an almond toe, as well as the pretty burgundy color.
The loafers are available in “rich burgundy” (pictured), black, and walnut, with all but the burgundy on sale today for $136-$189. The burgundy are full price at $228, and available in full and half sizes 5.5-12.
Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
Anon
Loafers look frumpy to me. I may have just aged myself with that comment, but these look to me like something to be worn with Dockers khakis and a button-down oxford shirt.
Alex Mack
You say khakis and a button-down like it’s a bad thing :)
Anon
Don’t forget the fleece vest if you work in finance in midtown.
But if you do work in finance in midtown, you would NEVER forget the fleece vest. Ever.
Anon
Without the fleece vest you are dangerously close to emperor’s new clothes territory!
Anon
Same.
anon
Yup.
Cerulean
I think it depends a great deal upon the actual loafers and how they’re styled. They can be fuddy duddy or fabulous.
Anonymous
Totally agree, but these are on the fuddy duddy side of the line for me, though just barely.
Anonymous
Too mannish. I think it would be a lot better with a different heel or color—just something so you don’t look like an 80s dad.
Anon
Iran is firing at Israel now. Feels like this conflict is going to exponentially more devastating in the coming months. Does anyone else feel terrified of the possibility of Trump getting elected and all of a sudden being the one to manage a proxy war with Iran? I don’t even think he will hire competent people to advise him like he did last time.
Anon
Yes. I don’t tend to freak out about the news but the attack and the scenario you discuss has me really scared.
Anon
Me too. I don’t understand what the end-game could possibly be here, let alone without exceptional leadership and a surgical strategy from the U.S.
Anonymous
End game for Israel is to neutralize Hezbollah and try to get a larger UN neutral zone than was established in 2006 and maybe more effective UN enforcement of the zone. But that’s just a guess.
Anon
But that won’t be the outcome. So the actual end-game, to me, is a scary prospect.
Anonymous
There’s no actual endgame in the Middle East. There is just perpetual conflict that ebbs and flows. It’s flowing at the moment and it will eventually ebb.
Anonymous
IDK – Iran had to do something in response to Israel attacking Hezbollah. So whether there are more missiles depends on how long the land incursion lasts. I don’t think it’s going to be more than Israel on the ground for a few weeks and Iran continuing to lob missles.
I’m inclined to think Trump will leave it alone. Putin doesn’t mind conflict in the region because it distracts from Ukraine.
Anon
You mean Israel defending itself from Hezbollah’s rocket attacks?
Anonymous
I actually don’t have an issue going after Hezbollah. I was more responding to OP’s idea that it’s going to get way worse. Rockets on Israel direct from
Iran was a predictable escalation from Israel effectively shutting down Hezbollah over the last week or so. Doesn’t necessarily mean a wider war. For anyone watching the area closely, it would have been very surprising if Iran had only responded verbally to a land incursion against Hezbollah.
Anon
He did fine when he was in office, so no.
Anon
“fine”??? are you high?
Anon
I don’t think he did fine last time, but I think OP’s point was that in his first term he was surrounded by a lot of sane, normal, competent Republicans and this time he won’t be because the only people advising him are deep into the MAGA cult.
Anonymous
You can’t really compare scenarios where there is and is not an open war in the Middle East. But in terms of what he will or will not do, one only need look to what is or is not in Putin’s strategic interest because he’s never going to stand up to Putin.
Anon
Trump did fine??
Anonymous
He did not do fine. There was so much international reputation clean up and near-incidents.
anon
Yeah, when Trump’s own staff and military were actually trying to clean up security breeches from the President and avoid following his dangerous ideas/orders for the safety of the free world…. I’m not sure I would say your President Trump choice was doing fine.
Cerulean
Fine like the dog in the burning building meme, yes.
Anon
This is scary and what Israel has been fearing and planning for for years. It’s hard to even watch.
Anonymous
It was avoidable.
Anonymous
Is a bootie like the Cole Haan Air Talia Gore Bootie 90 still (or back) in fashion? I have seen lots of kitten or stiletto heeled booties with jeans lately. I have this pair from 2012, which seems like not long ago enough to have cycled back into style, but I can’t put my finger on what might be wrong with them. FWIW when I bought them, I dressed them up for work with tights and sheath dresses.
Anonymous
In black leather (not suede), if that matters.
Anon
I think it’s too 90s looking to work unless you’re very young and obviously leaning into the retro style. The toe shape and dip in the front is really what makes it out of fashion imho.
Anon
No, they look super outdated to me.
Anonymous
Thank you both! Would something like the Madewell The Dimes kitten or Marc Fisher LTD Kolton kitten be better?
Trying to pull together an outfit for a dinner with friends I haven’t seen in a while. I do fine in the summer, but fall nicer outfits never quite click with me.
Anon
I dislike kitten heels but I recognize they are (unfortunately) trending right now so those both look like fine options if that’s the style you want. Wear with pants, not tights and sheath dresses.
Anonymous
Thank you! Yes this is to wear with jeans on the weekend.
Alex Mack
The Madewell boots are cute!
Anon
Haha no. Just no.
ABanon
Well, I’d wear them & spend my money elsewhere. They’re very similar to the Madewell Dimes to my eye. As long as the rest of your outfit doesn’t also harken back to a decade ago, I think you’re golden.
Anon
Oh honey no. They’re not even close. They’re similar in that they’re both shoes but that’s about it.
NaoNao
ooo I’d say those are a bit ‘out’. I think the curvy shape, height of shaft, and “dip” as someone else pointed out, plus spike/skinny/stiletto heel is making them feel really dated and very 2013 fashion blogger.
Another consideration is how they’d pair with today’s trends: maxi skirts/full, long skirts, slouchy wide leg pants, oversized suiting, Y2K redux—I’m having trouble picturing them with any of those unless it’s a very specific “lewk”.
Whereas they went perfectly with the “business casual in the club” vibes of 2012/2013.
Anonymous
How often do you vacuum? Assuming you don’t using a cleaning service and are doing it yourself and live in a mostly carpeted home?
Anonymous
I vacuum weekly, tbh it’s not enough the canister is full and gross every week, but I’m also not able to do more so I just accept my house is a bit shameful.
Anonymous
My roomba does the honors every week – hardwood floors, no pets, no indoor shoes. I do some additional manual vacuuming at the corners, rugs and hard to reach places, but not weekly.
Anonymous
All hardwood. 3 kids and one dog. Dog is not allowed in bedrooms. We vacuum main living spaces every second day and bedrooms weekly. Cleaning service washes the floors every second week. All rugs are some variation of washable and I wash them monthly for smaller rugs in bedrooms and every second month for larger rugs in living spaces.
Anonymous
Also, no indoor shoes.
Anon
Upstairs is done…barely. Primary bedroom about once a month, kids rooms like 3x a year because there’s always stuff on the floor. I will spot clean with the stick vac a bit more often if there’s actual visible debris.
Downstairs I try 1-2x week. Some rooms like the dining room and den are more frequent because of crumbs, but I don’t have any set schedule, just whenever the rugs look or feel gross under my feet. Having to tidy the floors beforehand is a deterrent.
Anon
Yeah, these other comments are making me feel a little embarrassed. 2 bedroom apartment with no kids or pets: kitchen, hallway, and living room hardwood get swept and swiffered twice a week. Carpeted bedrooms, living room rug, and couch get vacuumed once a month unless something is noticeably dirty.
Anonymous
No kids or pets is all the difference.
Anon
Agreed. We went from weekly vacuuming with a cat to near daily vacuuming with kids (not all areas- just the kitchen, dining and family rooms).
Anon
For real. With a shedding dog and kid, carpets were visibly coated with fur and unknown other ick after a day or two. Without either of them, those same carpets get vacuumed every week to 10 days whether they need it or not.
Anon
We have a biweekly cleaning service and don’t vacuum in between, so they get vacuumed every two weeks. We don’t have pets and kid clutter is mainly contained to their rooms and a basement playroom that non-kid guests never see.
Anon
Oh and we’re a no shoes indoors house.
Anon
I used to run the roomba almost daily when I had a mix of carpet, rugs, and hardwood (so 2-3x a week on the main floor, 2x a week upstairs). Recently moved to all hardwood and now I sweep parts of the house daily and only run the roomba or real vacuum every few weeks. No kids, but cats that shed and track litter, so there are a few places that need attention very frequently, but it takes less than a minute in each.
Anonymous
We vacuum our living space (entryway, living room, kitchen and office) every day and mop it 2x a week. Bedrooms/laundry room/playroom are 1x a week for vacuum and mop. We have a cleaning service every other week, so one of the vacuums/mops is done by them when they come.
I live in a smallish condo so it takes like 5 minutes to vacuum the living space and an extra 5 mins to mop it. We have a toddler, a dog and our stroller has to come part way into the living space to be stored. Absent one or more of those factors I would do it less.
Anon
When I notice it needs vacuuming. That works out to be weekly or thereabouts. One room at a time. More in the kitchen and dining room. No carpet, hardwood floors, but every room other than kitchens/bathrooms has area rugs.
Anon
Anyone watching the VP debate tonight? How are you feeling about it?
anon
Cautiously excited. All the backordered Harris signs have arrived in my neighborhood, so the vibes are getting there.
Anonymous
Considering it just for the train wreck value but IDK that I can stand watching either of them for more than 10 min. JD just being an awful person who will stand there and gas light and America will come away thinking – what a smart young ivy league man. And Mr. Aw Shucks is just annoying. Can’t believe Harris passed up Josh Shapiro for Mr. Mankato State.
Anon
I think passing up Josh Shapiro was 100% the right choice. The faux Obama voice is really irritating (though anyone is better than Vance).
Anonymous
I think passing up Shapiro was the right choice because he plays to the 95 corridor not the heartland, but I don’t find him annoying. Far far less annoying than a nothing high school history teacher preaching to me about being a good person or whatever. But yes I agree Harris could’ve picked a potted plant and that would’ve been better than Vance.
Anonymous
Shapiro is opposed by the teachers’ union and is on record saying racist and divisive stuff. He was a non-starter. Also, do you really think Kamala trusted him to be a good VP to her? He seems like he’d be a mansplainer with a personal agenda that isn’t “support President Harris.”
Anon
Jfc, I thought we had beat the elitism horse to death already.
Anon
On this page? Never!
Prairie roots
Tim Walz actually went to Chadron State; if you’re going to be a complete East Coast elite than the least you could do is try to keep your flyover states straight.
anon
+1
Prairie roots
*then
anonshmanon
You have to love how an elitist snob becomes a smart young ivy League man, just by being on the conservative side.
Anon
Someone posted this morning about book recs for considering what’s next in your career. +100000 for the first suggestion, Working Identity by Hermina Ibarra. If you can, get the updated new edition that was recently released. I read the original a few years ago and enjoyed revisiting the new edition, which has been beefed up with more examples and questions to ask yourself.
In this vein, I also really liked The Search: Finding Meaningful Work in a Post-Career World by Bruce Feiler. Found myself returning to both books often during my time of transition.
Anonymous
I read it before leaving a law firm and it helped me land a really great job, and helped me open my options up. I recommend it to everyone!
Lexi
Thanks! Recc comes at a good time!
Anon
Thanks to the commenter who told me about My Heart Beets this morning. I did not make mo ong dal yet, but I did make Lobia Masala in the IP really quickly, because I had everything on hand. YUM
https://myheartbeets.com/instant-pot-indian-black-eyed-pea-curry/
Calrayo
That looks delicious!
Anonymous
Oh, man. I’m a Rancho Gordo bean club member with a bunch of Indian ingredients hanging around my kitchen and this is going to be an amazing resource. Thanks to both of you for sharing.
Anon
With respect to the “how not to raise spoiled children” thread earlier—I’m interested in how attitudes towards having kids contribute conflict with calls to outsource things like cleaning and cooking when a parent has a big job. Cooking for example—we order in at least once or twice a week simply because cooking isn’t a priority and our jobs take up a lot of time, and we’ve made the calculation that we prefer to spend the extra money to order rather than meal plan and prepare a dinner. Same thing with cleaning—of course we could do it ourselves, but work hard and time is precious so are happy to spend more to have a twice monthly cleaner. Our child is a baby so nothing to really worry about now, but I have thought about how to best position these when they’re older—we waited to have children until we were financially well off and can afford these things but that certainly wasn’t always the case earlier in our careers. How do others navigate this when kids are older? im imagining having kids contribute with chores within our framework of having certain tasks outsourced (ie, yes we have cleaners but they won’t tidy so you have to tidy before they come, yes we order dinner but kids are responsible for cleanup after and taking out the trash), along with probably a lot of discussion of how hard me and DH worked and sacrificed to get to where we are.
Anonymous
Yeah I mean in most homes gone are the days of a high school kid being responsible for whipping up dinner for the family one night a week or being responsible for vacuuming once a week, at least in the socioeconomic level for people on this board since most people get frequent takeout and have cleaning services.
But there’s not reason you couldn’t do things like that. It doesn’t overburden the child with cooking nightly or anything but you could make them responsible once a week or even just two times in a month – builds a useful life skill. Same with cleaning. I doubt your cleaners come daily, right? So if they come every other week or even once a week, there’s always room between visits for a few quick chores like dusting or vacuuming or both.
And even if you didn’t want to do those things, there are still daily tasks that need to be done in any home that doesn’t have a full time housekeeper. Dishes after dinner, taking out the trash, picking up the clutter in your room. You could make a child responsible for that a certain number of times per week.
I feel like you need to impress upon kids that any household requires a lot of work to stay clean and orderly, and while we have SOME help as in cleaners, it’s not like we can sit back and let things get dirty until the cleaners come. I think this works for all except those who have a full time housekeeper ala Tony Micelli or Alice from the Brady Bunch.
Anon
This is my hot take: at certain points, there are things about your lifestyle that become opportunities for parenting and character development, and they shouldn’t be outsourced (or should be pared back). It’s a lot harder on parents to teach their kids how to cook or do their laundry or mow the lawn than to outsource it, but it can also be an important step towards becoming an adult. Those are just examples — you have to really think about your priorities and the skills and habits you want to impart, and then figure out how to get there. Maybe you keep the cleaning service for most of the house, but have your kids take responsibility for their own bathroom.
There was a lot of talk of “values” and how that matters more than how you spend your money. But your kids will learn the values that are communicated to them via your actions, not your words. So think about what you are communicating via fancy vacations, over consumption habits, the people you hire to do tasks that aren’t worthy of your own time, etc (again, just examples for thought. I’m not coming after you for vacations if those are in line with your values!)
And I really bristle at the attitude that kids are “so busy and stressed” they should only be responsible for the bare minimum in the family.
Anonymous
THIS. I feel like lots of parenting in the well to do circles in my areas is about lecturing to the kids about how fortunate they are whether it’s the six vacations per year or the two times per week cleaners. Frankly it’s what the parents want and I get it, most have worked hard to get to the levels they’re at and of course they want to splurge whether it’s frequent vacations or never doing laundry. But as the poster above says, kids understand actions while lectures go in one ear and out the other. So once in a while, I think the parents need to set their own fanciness aside to set a good example for the kids – whether it’s fewer vacations or once in a while slumming it at a domestic vacation in a non luxury hotel or doing some laundry regularly.
And keep in mind this doesn’t last forever. It’s really doing middle and high school that these things matter. It’s only a handful of years relatively speaking and then the kids are off to college and you can travel as luxury as you want or have a housekeeper or anything you’d like.
Anon
I guess I don’t see them as mutually exclusive. My husband and I get more takeout/Doordash than most people, but we still expect our 6 year old to prepare herself simple meals when she doesn’t like the dinner we serve, and we will expect her to share in cooking the family meal as she gets older. Even with a lot of meal delivery, it’s not like we never cook at home.
Similarly with cleaning, we have a cleaning service so no one in our house is scrubbing toilets, but she’s still responsible for keeping her room tidy, helping us clean up before the cleaning service comes and will eventually have to do her own laundry.
I guess it could be a problem if you outsource literally all household tasks 100% of the time, but I don’t know anyone who does that. It’s hard to fully outsource chores even if money is not a limiting factor.
anon
For the horse obsessed kids, there is nothing like mucking out stalls to teach life lessons.
anon
yeah… seriously…
??
anon
LOL. And how did they get access to that horse? Money.
Anon
I don’t think this is helping the point.
Anon
I’m pretty sure it’s satire
anon
It’s hard to tell on this site.
Anon
Pretty sure it’s not. Horses are hard work and take a ton of maintenance.
Anonymous
I grew up in a similar situation and have kids now. Their jobs include, depending on their ages,
– feed pets/walk dog
– emptying recycling
-folding laundry
– emptying dishwasher
– vacuum their bedroom on the week the cleaners don’t come
– help change sheets on their beds
– sort dirty laundry and put away clean laundry
– put away groceries
Hard bits are that it often takes more time to teach a kid to do something vs do it yourself, at least initially. And figuring out age appropriate tasks. I find stepping up tasks helps. So sorting laundry is age 7, putting away laundry and picking out clothes for the week is age 9. You’ll need to be flexible as well – I assumed my 13 yr old would wash her own laundry but with a house of 5 sporty people, I wash and dry to coordinate loads so everyone has the right stuff clean on the right days. Similarly DH loads the dishwasher to maximize what we can get in and avoid having to do two loads which throws off the kids schedule for emptying. We aim for them to have at least one chore each day of the week.
Anon
My kids started being responsible for their own laundry and cleaning their shared bathroom sometime in high school. They were responsible for cleaning their own rooms earlier than that. To echo another commenter, it would actually be easier for our whole household to put our laundry together, but it was an important life skill they needed to learn. And if whatever you want/need to wear isn’t clean, oh well! That’s how you learn to keep up with it.
Anon
I’ve been mulling this over and I think chores are one aspect of (not) spoiling kids, but in general it’s about the principle “you can’t always get what you want” and the myriad ways that manifests. This includes:
– Not having the exact dinner or snack you desire when you desire it
– Having to pick and choose activities, even if parents could technically afford them all
– Parents lives not revolving around kids’ activities…sometimes they’ll need to arrange their own car pool, parents definitely won’t be watching practices and maybe not every game, and maybe activities have to be skipped for bigger family priorities
– Learning to make do with less (clothes, toys, vacations) or different than ideal (parents will not be buying Lululemon on the regular, etc)
– Other people in the family matter and sometimes their needs matter MORE than yours do
The list goes on. But a huge issue with raising competent adults is being able to delay gratification and tamp down impulses, so you need to help your kids grow those skills.
Anonymous
Agree so much with this. I think there’s something to be said for letting kids be disappointed. I know I and my friends were often even though we were all upper middle class though not nearly as wealthy as this board is. We couldn’t just ask our parents for something and get it ASAP whether it was a certain thing for dinner or a certain item at the mall. More often than not we were told we could buy the thing once we saved up our allowances or ask for it for a holiday or birthday. If we suddenly wanted pizza or Chinese for dinner, we were told sorry dinner is already on the stove, you can eat that or make a PBJ but maybe we can get pizza or Chinese when we go out at the end of the week.
Someone said it on this board that helicopter parenting is fundamentally about never letting your kid be disappointed. Always keep them happy whether it means Uber Eats the thing they want for dinner even when you’ve got dinner already made or fighting with the teacher who dared say they broke the school rule by being on their cell. For me THAT is what I’m trying to avoid. Sure teach them life skills like laundry, cleaning, and being a contributing member of a household but also show them that the world does not revolve around them.
Anon
Yeah I agree with this and I like to think we do a pretty good job at this. My kids have a very privileged lifestyle in a lot of material ways but I feel like they experience plenty of disappointment and we helicopter a lot less than their friends’ parents.
I do think it’s good to teach high schoolers to cook, do laundry and manage money, so they have those life skills, but I don’t really think it’s about “spoiled” or not, it’s more like “these are things that adults need to know and you’re about to become an adult.”
Anon
I commented on the earlier thread. Growing up we had biweekly house cleaners. My parents’ attitude was “we work hard to enjoy this privilege as a family. You should work hard in school and get a good job so you can enjoy it as an adult too.” We didn’t scrub bathrooms but we did things that took the burden off of our parents: doing our own laundry, taking out the trash, wiping down counters after dinner, walking and feeding the dog, getting dinner started, cooking our own meals if we ate separately.
FWIW my SO grew up in a “you’re going to clean all bathrooms weekly to build character” household and I’m actually the one who does more of the cleaning (and a more thorough job) in our shared apartment.
Anon
I think what you said is right about how to handle it. So much of it is attitude and how parents talk about these things. Some of it I also think is genetic- I have 6 year old T fraternal twins, one is more of a spender, one is more of a saver (so far). I have a sister, she was the spender with me being more of the saver/anxious about money. And then some of it I think must be peer influence. DH’s boss is an identical twin and at the last holiday party his wife was commenting on how the twin brother never spends money on anything (i think he’s a successful attorney), whereas DH’s boss (and wife) has no trouble spending the millions he’s earned working in finance on multiple homes, fancy vacations, etc. They grew up in the same household, but went to different colleges and surrounded themselves with different types of people. As parents we can only do so much
Anon
My red hot take is that I don’t think couples with two big jobs should have kids / someone should step back to a 40 hour a week role once there are kids in the picture. I am in NO WAY saying that I think a parent should stay home, I was happy to grow up in a dual working parent family, I think it was a good model to me, I really enjoy my career and would have being a SAHM, and I want my kids to see both parents working. I am also not someone who is a total mommy martyr; I have friends, and hobbies, and a social life outside of my kids too. But, I also recognize that the years are short and it’s valuable to have as much family time as we can, especially doing the ordinary things. IME, there are almost no “big jobs” that don’t have a “normal job” counterpart, usually continuing to chase the big jobs is some combination of ego, hubris, or financial greed.
It was important, for a few reasons, that we don’t outsource much at home. I think its important for not raising spoiled kids, I think its important to show that no one is too good / busy / rich to do the chores, and IME kids only learn how to do these things by doing them. In our family, we all rotate chores so we all do everything – kids don’t feel like they get stuck with the worse jobs, kids also don’t get waited on hand and foot, and we all know, or learn, how to do everything.
Anonymous
Um, yikes on bikes. Husband and I are both equity partners in a big law firm. We’re all good, thanks for asking.
Anon
How much time do you spend with your kids on a week day?
Anon
This is so nasty. Please let people live. Are you serious with this energy
Anon
I don’t think you should opine on who should or should not have kids. Make decisions for yourself.
Anon
My mom is a teacher and always says that kids didnt ask to be born, so if you’re going to have kids, you need to be invested and be there for them – this includes physically being there for them by being home and not at work at 8PM
Anon
Yeah, it’s taboo to say here, but I don’t really understand having kids if you’re never going to see them. I guess some people really value future relationships with their adult children, but for me the best part of having kids is experiencing their childhood, especially the golden elementary school years when they’re independent and fun but still adore you. I just don’t see how you can be present for that with a 70 hour a week job.
But like the person below I actively sought out men without big jobs when dating. I knew I didn’t want to be working more than 40 hours/week myself, and I also didn’t want to be home alone solo parenting a pack of kids while my Big Job husband was putting in 70+ hour workweeks. That sounds beyond miserable to me, no matter how much money we’d have.
Anon
Right? Spending time with my kids is FUN (most of the time) and I want to have that time in my day to day life, not just on weekends or vacations or time off. Also, its important – if I want to ensure that certain values or lessons or ways of doing things are passed on to my kids, I need to put in the time for that. I also need to be there for them – whether that’s as a sounding board, or for cuddles, or whatever they need from me.
I am sure that having adults kids is really fun – I have had a lot of fun with my parents as an adult and I look forward to having the same with my kids.But, to me that great adult relationship is the benefit and the reward for years of being there, being involved, and putting in the “work”. If you’re an absentee parent, you don’t just wake up one day and have a good, close, fun relationship with your adult kids (we’ve all heard Cats In the Cradle).
anon
Totally agree, 5:41. I have no interest in working more than 40 hours a week because I want to be there with, and for, my kids. And as kids get older, they still need your presence. Although they are more physically independent, the emotional stuff matters so much more. A lot can go sideways in the middle school and high school years if parents aren’t paying attention.
Anon
I think kids need your presence MORE as they get older, not less. Although it might be sad for the parent, it’s pretty easy on the kid to outsource childcare in the baby and toddler years. Anyone can wipe a butt or feed a kid lunch, but as they get older the problems become more emotional and they need their parent, not just a random anyone.
Anon
Great. So you should do that for your own kids.
Anon
It’s a very hot take here but I completely agree with your first paragraph. Kids don’t need a stay at home parent, but they do need a parent (doesn’t have to be mom) who isn’t regularly working 70 hours.
That said my husband and I both work 40 hours and still outsource a lot. We can easily afford it, and it makes life easier and gives us more family time. Even with a lot of outsourcing there are still *plenty* of organic opportunities for kids to do chores and contribute to the household, and they understand these are privileges we’ve earned through hard work and responsible saving and we didn’t have a cleaner or frequent food delivery in our 20s and they won’t either.
Anon
+1 – no need for stay at home parents (unless that’s what you want!), but a parent (ideally both, but definitely at least one) SHOULD be around a lot.
I honestly don’t understand why people who are going to regularly be working 60+ hour weeks have kids.
Anon
+1 If both parents are working 50+ hours on the regular then you are outsourcing the raising of your kids. You only get quality time when you have quantity time.
Anon
Yup. Sure you “can” outsource raising your kids, but you shouldn’t.
Anon
I don’t feel as strongly about this, but I think if you’re going to outsource, it helps to outsource more to a family member or a nanny vs. shuffling between services (I think reliable access to time with a single trusted person matters a lot!).
Anon
I actively avoided men with “big jobs” when I was dating. I wanted someone who worked to live, like I do, rather than live to work. I wanted someone with a job that was contributing to society but who would also be home for family dinner every night. I know a lot of people here would look down on our paths, but so be it.
When we do get called in after hours or have to travel for work, it’s rare but it’s also a good example to our kids putting others before our selves. My husband works in local government. If there’s an emergency, he has to be at the city’s Emergency Operations Center – often pulling 12-16 hour shifts, working nights, weekends, and/or holidays, 7 days a week until the crisis is over. I work for an NGO in disaster relief. I normally work 35 hours a week from home, but then a few times a year I deploy to disasters where I’m working the 12-16 hour shifts, 7 days a week, out in the field. I’m headed to North Carolina shortly.
I knew it was important to me to be home for dinner, baring a literal disaster, and to marry someone who also viewed being home for dinner as an important priority.
I know I’m hypocritical, because like I said there are times when one of us is working crazy hours and, in my case, not even living at home. But, disaster response is not the majority of our lives. We also both made changes in our careers to be more accommodating for having kids. We both used to work for the city, but I left partially because if something happened we’d either be on the same schedule or we’d be relieving each other (which would leave a gap in care) and we didn’t want that. I used to deploy more, but I have moved around internally to be home more. I purposely cover an area for work that is not where we live, so I don’t run the risk of deploying when my husband is also busy.
On the homefront, it sucks when one of us is working on a disaster (the other parent has to do EVERYTHING while still working, kids miss the parent who is working) but we’re also living out our values and our kids get to see that, and we get to have good conversations about why we’re in public service. Also, while I hate being away from home, my job is something I’m really passionate about and I do love doing what I do. It fulfills me almost as much as being a mom, but in an entirely different way.
Anonymous
Please teach your kids how to cook, clean, and basic house maintenance (like how frequently you change air filters, e.g.). My DH, who grew up decidedly middle, not upper, class, apparently just never had to do chores and was woefully ignorant of most of these. It’s been a learning process and thank god for youtube so I don’t have to parent an adult.
Anon
Hot take, childhood chores don’t matter that much. My husband never had any chores- his mom did everything for her husband and kids (and also worked outside the home) – and he does more housework and parenting than just about any straight man I know. I realize that’s just one data point but more broadly I don’t see a lot of correlation between childhood chores and responsible adult behavior.
What I think matters far more is how you much you bail out your young adult children. If you swoop in and hire a cleaning service when your brand new college grad complains about having to clean their own bathroom for the first time, you’re setting up a kid who doesn’t expect to do housework and doesn’t understand the value of money. If you tell them they’re on their own (as any decent parent would, imo), they’ll be forced to clean their place on their own and will realize they have to work hard if they want to outsource the sane things they grew up seeing their parents outsource. That matters far more than whether or not they cleaned their own bathroom at 16. Basically this is a version of “we’re rich, you’re poor” from the morning thread.
Anon
From the time my kids could hold those little Melissa and Doug cleaning toys, they have been helping with chores like sweeping up all the food they somehow get on the floor after dinner. There are still plenty of daily chores to do even though we have cleaners come in regularly. I plan on having my kids cook dinner when they’re teens – not every night, but it’s a life skill and normal responsibility. They will help with jobs like mowing the lawn. Etc. I don’t lecture my kids on how hard we work to have certain things, but they can see all that we do to maintain our household and gain experience doing those things.
Anon
We’re a two-lawyer family with two school aged kids, and until two months ago we paid for a bi weekly cleaning service. I’d always viewed it as, ‘we can afford it, why waste our weekends cleaning when we can spend time together as a family” but I recently cancelled the service and honestly – it’s been ok. I cancelled after my 10-year old had his best friend over (best friend is from a single-mom, barely above poverty wage family) and best friend was in awe of how little my kid had to do around the house – cue the guilt and shame. So now there’s a chores list and mom, dad, and kids each split up what needs to get done. House looks better (bathrooms now cleaned weekly rather than every 2 weeks, for example). Everyone feels more invested in keeping things up.
Anon
This is so funny because my 8 yo started having a friend over and the friend is in disgust over how dirty our house is (tail end of monthly cleaning). My kid does her laundry, dresses herself, makes her lunch and washes dishes and lunchboxes every day, and walks the dog. Her friend does none of these chores. None of us clean beyond dishes and laundry and tidying up for the cleaners, and I don’t want to. In part due to friend’s feedback, I asked the cleaners to start coming every two weeks. To each their own!!
Anon
It’s funny- I skimmed your comment, thought I got the gist of it, read the comments and then went back to re-read the details. We do the act same stuff (take out twice a week and biweekly house cleaners) and I don’t worry about it at all. There’s still plenty of chores to go around. Tonight my toddlers help me cook dinner, helped clean up after dinner including vacuuming the floor, fed and watered the cat, and helped sort and hang a basket of clean laundry.
Anon
I said basically the same thing above. We have a biweekly cleaning service and get food takeout or delivery a couple times a week. There’s still a ton of housework to be done and we involve our kids in it. Unless you have a maid multiple times a week, food prepared for you every day, a wash and fold laundry service, a dog groomer and walker, a yard service, a snow blowing service, etc I don’t see how you could possibly run out of chores. And no one I know has all that.
Anon
I’ve noticed there is sometimes overlap between people who grew up with household cleaners, have themselves worked as household cleaners before, and who employ household cleaners. It made me wonder if the common ground is just respecting the work as work!
NYNY
To the poster yesterday who was looking for recs for an afternoon in NYC this week, I saw something this morning about an exhibit on Alvin Ailey at the Whitney that looks incredible. I’m definitely going to figure out a time to see it.
anon
Meandering around the Whitney was definitely a highlight of my last trip to NY. If you want to add something nearby, the AIA architecture cruise was excellent.
Anonymous
Is there ever any way to donate shoes like you’d donate clothes? I have a bunch of pairs that are entirely new or maybe have been worn 1-2 times. Some are out of style but most I just can’t wear anymore because I have a bunion that makes them uncomfortable. I’m not talking 500 dollar shoes, it’s mostly department store brands like Nine West and the like. I’m just not sure if I put them in the trash or if they can be donated.
Anon
Literally every place I’ve ever donated clothes also takes shoes.
Anon
Uh, yes. Why couldn’t you?
Anonymous
Because used shoes can’t be cleaned whereas used clothes can be laundered? I guess that’s not an issue?
Anon
Shoes can absolutely be cleaned. You clean off visible dirt, polish the leather, and disinfect them with spray or wipes inside just like any other non-machine-wash item (purse, briefcase, etc.). Do you never clean your own shoes?
Anonymous
+ 1 million! Of course shoes can be cleaned!
Anon
Shoes are one of the biggest sellers on ebay. People do pay actual money for used shoes.
Anon
Why couldn’t you donate them? Every thrift and consignment shop I have visited sells them; they have to get them from somewhere.
Anon
Have you really never looked at the Goodwill website or seen used shoes at a consignment store or seen those green bins for “donate clothes and shoes here”? This stuff is everywhere and I’m a bit baffled you’re asking this.
Atlanta
My office just had a donation collection for Dress for Success or similar organization, you know, donate clothes so women can transition / level up to office jobs. Anyway the collection focused on accessories- shoes and bags, especially bags big enough to fit portfolios, tablets, or laptops. So, yes.
Kate
Charities like Dress for Success are always searching for shoes like this. Please, please, please don’t just throw them away. There is so much plastic in shoes these days, and it’ll be in that landfill long after you and I are gone.
Lexi
This!!!