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Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
We've talked a lot about the Nordstrom sale, and this sadly is not a part of it — but at $128 it's pretty affordable anyway. I like the high neckline, the ruching details, the three-quarter length sleeves, and even the just-below-the-knee length. We've pictured the navy, but I also like it in red. Maggy London Gathered Crepe Sheath Dress
A few plus-size options are here, here, and here.
Seen a great piece you'd like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com.
Psst: The Nordstrom sale opens to the public on Friday 7/17! If you happen to be a cardholder, please check out our top picks for workwear as well as shoes and bags.
(L-5)
Sales of note for 9.16.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 30% off wear-now styles
- J.Crew Factory – (ends 9/16 PM): 40% off everything + extra 70% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Extra 25% off all tops + markdowns
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
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And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
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- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
LondonLeisureYear
Paging Twin Cities people!
I am getting married in Minneapolis and getting there a few weeks before my wedding so I will be doing a lot of the personal upkeep there, but haven’t lived there for years. What are your favorite places for getting your eyebrows waxed? nails done? hair blown out?
Thanks!
Ellen
You are SO lucky! I want to find a guy to MARRY ME with Money. But I want to live in NY. Minnesota is very cold my dad says. FOOEY!
Helen
Maybe you can become a bridesmaid. Rumor has it that guys will always be “interested” in you as a bridesmaid.
Anonymous2312
The Refinery, it’s sort of near the U. They fixed my brows after I butchered them badly and do a good job with body waxing.
eh230
For hair and eyebrows go to Juut in downtown. Their wax is very gentle. Also love, love Leah there for hair.
Frannie
Blink for eyebrows! Truly amazing.
Lady Tetra
Ladies, are the Tory Burch wedges with the medallion on them totally out of style now? I tried some on at Nordstrom Rack yesterday and they were really comfortable, and I’ve been looking for nice wedges for a while, but I feel like everyone had them four years ago. Thoughts? Any suggestions on other comfortable, nice wedges? Thanks!
LondonLeisureYear
Personally I find anything that screams a brand name out of style. So Tory Burch with the really identifiable medallion would fall under that. Are there Tory Burch options where the medallion is not really noticeable?
Shopaholic
I think they are out of style now unfortunately. How about Cole Haan or Kate Spade? Both have nice wedges which are understated and comfy.
Anon 2
They are ubiquitous (SE US). I think they have gone the route of being like wearing black — never what’s hot, but OK. I see a ton of those wedges ever day (even more than the Reva).
anon1
I see them all over the place on fashionable people here in Texas.
Anonymous
is that not an oxymoron?
Anonymous
Says someone who’s never actually been or went to like, Salt Lick and Mount Bonnell once and thinks she knows Texas.
That said, just no at the Reva flats and equivalent medallion wedges still being worn by the fashionable women here. They’re worn by the brand name drones who are also carrying a LV Speedy in mono canvas (damier azure if they’re feeling light and summery), Kendra Scott earrings, an Hermes clic clac bracelet, and the Cosmo-Tai blowout from Drybar. Driving a Lexus IS250 or RX350 while texting.
Alanna of Trebond
Not sure we have the same definition of fashionable.
Maddie Ross
This. The close-toed ones are too dark and heavy in the summer, but I still wear mine. I agree that they are comfy. People have all different opinions on the medallion/branding issue. I’ve got my own, slightly disparate, opinions (i.e., I’ll wear the Tory medallion, but wouldn’t dare carry a coach C-covered bag) so I think you just do you. If you like and think you’ll wear, go for it.
MJ
I just bought the AGL wedges that are part of the Nordy’s anniversary sale. They are crazy comfy, not too tall (I’m already tall–don’t need the height) and they look very sleek. They have a metal bar across the toe in a really nice way. I would link but you have to be signed in to the Anniv sale to see them. They’re $209 and come in black and a smoky gray. I find grays hard to match with tights, so I got black only. Really excited. And…for the big-of-foot, they come up to EUR43, which was great for me.
KT
They’re overdone and now they’re pretty tacky looking, imo
anonymous
I have a black suit that doesn’t get much use because to me it seems overly stuffy/formal, and mostly it just feels like I’m playing dress up because I’m trying too hard. (I’m in my mid 20s and feel really young and inexperienced, and somehow it feels like the black suit with the solid color button down projects that). I think part of the problem is what I wear it with- Any suggestions of what tops to wear that would make it look more normal and not like I’m going to my first job interview?
KittyKat
I like silk blouses, they are flowy and soft and a nice contrast to the harsh suit. I also like more interesting shoes. One of my go to combos is a lilac silk shirt and grey suede d’orsday pumps. Really makes a suit feel like me
mascot
Bright colors or a fun patterned shirt that isn’t a button down. They are often sleeveless so know your office, but I’ve had good luck with some Calvin Klein shells (the pleat neck I think) from Macys.
lsw
Second a printed/patterned blouse. What about adding a scarf or bold necklace?
Snickety
Second a printed/patterned blouse. What about adding a scarf or bold necklace?
Bonnie
Print and color will make a black suit less stuffy. I like to wear mine with a black and white printed top and colorful heels.
KT
Why not wear a nice shell? I feel like Saturday Night fever in the suit/button down combo, so a colorful silk shell makes it more youthful/appropriate
LAnon
I had the exact same feeling in my mid-late 20’s. My typical solution was fun / youthful jewelry – I got some jewelry that was less expensive and more trendy than what I would usually wear and it helped a lot. I found a lot of this stuff at stores like Forever 21 and other “fast fashion” places. I also typically wear jackets and long sleeves shirts with the sleeves rolled or pushed to the elbows, which I thinks make it look like I’m more comfortable in my suits and less playing dress up and feeling stiff.
Anon
So here’s my take on the suit-plus-button-up for women: when’s the last time you saw a mannequin at Ann Taylor or in a department store wearing that? Can’t think of when, right? That should tell you something.
The only women I know who wear that combo is young women straight out of school. It’s often combined with long, straight hair pinned back with a bobby pin. Oy.
Like the others have suggested, go for silky shells in colors and patterns. There’s this ridiculous view propagated by career services offices that business formal means suit-plus-button-up. I think business formal means gorgeous fabrics that command attention and convey confidence. An uncomfortable shirt that’s constantly coming untucked or gaping in the front will never achieve that.
Michelle
I like an abstract pattern shell or silk button down with black suits
anon
About a week ago, someone on here said that you doubt any woman who is pro life is picking out nylons to go with her suit in big law, meaning no one could possibly be a career woman and have that view. I was just catching up on past threads and that jumped out at me. I wanted you to know how close minded and myopic that is. I am pro life and work at an AmLaw 50 firm (but I don’t wear nylons with my suit, for what it’s worth). I have lots of friends who are in big law and are also pro life, women and men. So really, you should know that not everyone shares your worldview.
Walnut
I’ll also jump on here. For as liberal and feminist as many of my views are, I am fiercely pro life. I’m not preachy out of turn nor do I bring it up as a general conversation piece, but if asked about it or given the appropriate opportunity to have a compassionate discussion, my views are very clear.
anon
Exactly. My frustration is probably compounded by a conversation I had at lunch yesterday with a partner who just acted like any Republicans are crazy, etc., and like he could see the future—Hillary is going to win by a landslide. The GOP is a party for old white men. Meanwhile, he’s talking to me (obviously a woman) after I said I think we root for different teams. It frustrates me that people assume all educated people have the same viewpoint.
anonymous
As someone who’s generally somewhere in the middle but very progressive “social issues,” I agree with this statement. It’s irritating when people make remarks like that assuming that everyone sane shares them.
Anon
It frustrates me that people assume all _________ people have the same viewpoint.
Fill in that blank with anything (including educated, per your example) and I agree completely.
Signed,
A military family of tired of getting the “But how are you Democrats? You’re in the military!” question.
Anon for this
I agree. I support the right to choose to carry a firearm for self defense. I also believe the recent Supreme Court decision re: same-sex marriage was a long overdue recognition of equal protection under the law (ianal).
Anon
BigLaw partner in a practice area with few women attorneys. The litigation class take-away I remember most was to try to see the other side of all arguments and to put yourself in the other person’s shoes. I try to do that in IRL (and am not a litigator, but seeing the other side I think makes me a more effective transactional lawyer).
I ackowledge that not everyone sees the world as I do and most of the time, I see how you can have different opinions on things and that that’s OK. I look at a lot of barbarism in newspaper headlines and am grateful to live where we are (mostly) tolerant of each other.
I can remember about 10 years ago when the Metro ran a series of ads with an “abortion means that we are failing women” theme and I think that that’s where I stand. Pro-life, but in deep awareness of what a hard road it is that some people are on.
Anontheway
Can you elaborate on that series of ads? I apologize if I’m being thick (and I disclose that I’m coming at this from a pro-choice perspective), but I’m not sure that I understand what is meant by “abortion means that we are failing women”. I’m not trying to troll you, I promise – I’m honestly curious and would like to hear your educated opinion/impression. Thanks.
mascot
Not the OP, but I’ve interpreted that to mean that women have abortions because they don’t have other choices They don’t have the financial/emotional/societal support needed to successfully raise a child. This could be anything from a father refusing to give financial support to a student not being able to access childcare that would allow her to continue her education to the lack of resources/facilities to provide care for medically fragile/disabled children. I think you can also cast this as failure to provide accessible, effective birth control to women.
anonymous
for those of you who identify as pro-life, do you mean in the political sense- that you believe that legal abortions should not be available?
anon
Yes.
Anonymous
And then correspondingly, are you against the death penalty?
And in favor of sex ed in the schools and contraception? And social support for women who have children alone?
I am pro-choice, but also realize people have different values and that is ok. I just like to see consistency with ideas.
JJ
I’ll respond: Yes, I’m pro-life and yes, I want abortion outlawed. I’m also anti-death penalty, pro sex-ed in schools and think birth control should be OTC (which Planned Parenthood is against, btw).
Dangerous Bite!
My views:
–pro-life
–against the death penalty
–favor limited sex ed (encourage abstinence but teach condom use)
–social support to help children in need (regardless of their parenting situation) is good
Anonymous
Why limited sex ed? Condoms are a pretty crappy method of BC for teens. If you are so anti-abortion, why not all BC free to those in need, especially IUDs?
Anonymous
Also, if someone around you is dying of kidney disease, how do you feel about being forced to donate your kidney to them?
Walnut
1. Pro-life
2. Anti death penalty
3. Pro sex ed and empowering all individuals to make informed sex-related decisions
4. I’ve never considered forced organ donation of the sort. Seems like an excellent topic for discussion. For what it’s worth, I happily donate my blood and would donate any body part to anyone in need. This is said as a person who after ten years on the bone marrow registry was contacted as a potential match.
SexEd
I think that there is a lot more to education than how to not get pregnant. Like how not to get diseases. Like cervical cancer risk. Avoiding abusive relationships. Negotiating birth control. Avoiding abusive and exploitative relationships. No, that kid on the internet is not your BF. What if you are RH- and get pregnant (and keep that a secret b/c you are embarrased and then get pregnant again later when you want that baby)? So. Many. Things.
So many things I think that schools do well, but I think that even a good school would be no match for Weighty Life Issues. It takes a village and about a decade of life experience before a lot of us get this halfway right.
anon
There are a lot of legit reasons to keep BCP from being OTC. The planned parenthood snark is not necessary or constructive. I’m extremely pro-choice and I don’t think it should be OTC.
MD
Yes, I believe there should be some counseling/guidance, as there are a lot of side effects and complications of birth control that it is too risky to make it over the counter.
But the most dangerous OTC is Aspirin. If they tried to get it approved by the FDA today, it would be by prescription only. So many complications…..
Just because something is OTC, doesn’t mean it is “safe”.
JJ
Argh. Comment disappeared, so sorry if this posts twice.
It wasn’t snark, it’s a fact.
And with recent revelations, Planned Parenthood is probably against OTC because it would eat into their side business. (And that is snark).
anon
JJ- oh please. It’s a fact, sure, but its not relevant to the merits of whether BCP should be OTC. You pointed it out only for the purpose of getting in a dig at PP, which is obvious from your 11:06 post.
BTW- side business? You do realize that abortion counts for 3-10% of PP services, depending on how they are reported? I certainly hope you’re not referring to that heavily edited video by a group that is dedicated to the destruction of PP purporting to show that PP “sells baby parts.” I’d like to give you more credit than that.
Come on. Grow up. You know as well as everyone else, including PP, that selling “baby parts” is illegal.
JJ
I was referring to the almost 3-hour video that was whole and unedited, actually. It is illegal – agreed. And that video was horrifying and ghoulish. Judge all you want if I feel that way.
anon
I’d love to know where in the video I can find the verbal offer by a PP official to sell “baby parts.” Give me a time stamp.
Anonymous2312
I’ll bite. I wouldn’t call myself traditionally pro-life. I’m pro-choice in the sense that I absolutely 100% think that abortion should be legal. However, I would not choose to have one because in my own moral framework I don’t think it’s morally right. This arises out of my religious views.
I struggle b/c I don’t want to judge others who choose to have one as it is their body and their choice. I think abortion should be “safe, legal, & rare” so I personally find it troublesome when people have the appearance (not saying they actually haven’t thought it through- I’m not them) or seem like they are terminating out of inconvenience.
I’ve had friends who have had abortions & I’ve been supportive of them. I don’t know what I would have done 10 years ago. I think it’s much more common than anyone has any idea or likes to talk about.
Anonymous
So, you’re pro-choice though. Like, this is literally what being pro-choice is. It’s actually a prevalent view. And it’s not pro-life. Pro-life is about preventing others from having abortions, not choosing not to have one yourself.
resisting your labels
I think that a lot of us are pro life / pro choice. My choice is life. My choice = I decide.
Anonymous
They’re not my labels. They have their problems, but if you believe that women should be able to decide whether or not they have abortions, you are not pro-life, and making up your own definition does nothing but hedge your bets and confuse the issue.
August
+1 Anonymous at 10:27 AM
I have never had an abortion and truly never want to have one. However, I shudder to think abortion being illegal. I cannot fathom how some one can expect abortions to be illegal and take away other people’s right.
Bonnie
Right, pro-life does not mean that you personally would choose not to have an abortion. Pro-life means that you don’t think that women should have that choice.
TNTT
This.
Anon2312
The labels are entirely too restrictive and break a complicated conversation down to a black and white dichotomy that just doesn’t work.
And just to throw some more gasoline on a fire, I do think it’s morally wrong to terminate a pregnancy. I also think it’s morally wrong to cheat on a spouse. There’s lot of things that are morally wrong.
cc
That’s being pro choice. Pro choice people aren’t proponents of abortion- they just think it should be a safe, legal option.
Anonymous
I just want to throw out a lol at the idea that anyone “terminates for inconvenience.”
We have near daily posts on this blog about the massive changes that occur in all areas of your life that accompany having a child. Obviously there are massive rewards, too, but to pretend that having a baby is simply an “inconvenience” is a mind-numbingly reductive way to think.
Marilla
Yeah, but when someone says “should I have an abortion because I may be pregnant but we weren’t planning on TTC for another six months” – I have a hard time swallowing that as anything but inconvenience. (For the record, I am very very pro choice and I think a woman should have that right… but it personally does not sit well with me. Like many other pro-choice women, I ideally think abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. And I believe in access to sex ed at an early age, reliable/cheap/accessible birth control, and a strong social security network.)
Anonymous
+1 million to Marilla.
Anon2312
That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Terminating pregnancy because the 6 month period was supposed to be just for you seems inherently wrong to me and entirely about convenience..
Anonny
Wholeheartedly agree. That whole conversation thread from the other day bothered me because I didn’t hear this concept in there, and I couldn’t personally articulate it.
Anonny
Also, I’m strongly pro-choice, just in case there was any question about that when reading my comment above.
Anonymous
I am pro-choice. And agree with Marilla, Anonymous @ 12:31, and Anon2312. That thread was disturbing.
Anon
Did you go to Catholic school? Some schools push that lie of what pro-life means, in that even if you believe a woman should choose, life is usually the more moral choice except in certain cases. That’s a very common view, but it is 100% pro-choice. I think they want people to think they’re pro-life for political reasons when they are actually not. I wish we used the terms pro-choice and anti-choice.
Anon also
I think that there is a lot of battling in the definitions.
One thing that struck me is that I’ve had two D&Cs (in hospitals, with anesthesia, covered by insurance). I thought that that was how abortions were (perhaps in theory) but then I remember the Kermit Gosnel (may be botching that spelling) and I was horrified that women get treated like that, here in the US. I don’t know if that is always the case, but if my daughters ever had to have abortions, I would want much better for them — not to have something risk their life or ability to have other pregnancies.
anonforthis
I totally understand that mindset and used to feel the same way. I think that your views are firmly in the pro-choice section, though, because you believe in the individual’s right to choose.
As I’ve gotten older, I realized that I actually really dislike spending time with children, and never want any so I would definitely get an abortion if I were to get pregnant at this time. Luckily, I have easy access to birth control and my birth control methods have yet to fail.
Anonymous
Giggles at “terminating for inconvenience”.
As someone who had an abortion, it wasn’t like I did it for giggles and because it made me miss a mani-pedi appointment.
Anonymous
I am staunchly pro-choice in that I believe it should be safe, legal, and rare, but I know someone who has had FOUR abortions. Four. Because she refuses to use birth control for some unfathomable reason. One of the four was in the second trimester. In my opinion, I draw the line at fetal pain, and when she told me how far along she was it really upset me. I don’t know about “terminating for inconvenience” but there are people out there who terminate multiple times because they are generally terrible people. That said, they would probably be terrible parents too. I personally believe she should have her tubes forcibly tied, but that is a whole other can of worms.
Anon
The abortion debate goes even further than letting women decide whether to teminate a pregnancy. I miscarried at 8 weeks but my body would not expel the dead fetus. I walked around for almost 2 weeks with a dead baby inside my body and it was devastating. I finally took meds to move the process along but learned that many women would not have been able to do the same because some pharmacists refuse to fill that particular prescription. That’s just so wrong.
Pictures
I am firmly pro-choice in the safe, legal, rare and EARLY camp. To the Anon above, that story haunts me.
Anon2312
Look I don’t know you and I don’t pretend to know what your reasons are or whatever. I’m talking the outrageous 6 month inconvenience conversation. Because yes some people do some things like that. Not saying everyone or you but yeah people do it.
anonymous2
I am pro-choice but am of the camp that says – I wish women never had to make that choice. Better BC, no BC failure, more/easier access to BC, no abusive spouses/partners, no r@pe, no birth defects, no poor maternal health. Unfortunately, that’s a fantasy life.
Example #1: College classmate/co-worker tells me – on a crowded city bus – that she just had a termination so she and her fiancé could have a white-dress, Catholic wedding. I was raised Catholic. I got off the bus right then (not my stop) and started crying and never talked to her again if I could help it. Had to sit through six months of her wedding chatter, and declined to attend the wedding with my co-workers.
Example #2: I thought I would never have an abortion and luckily I haven’t. But I came close when my prenatal tests showed that the baby potentially had Trisomy 18, which is almost uniformly fatal (median lifespan is 15 days and a majority die before birth). I would not have carried a baby with that condition to birth – couldn’t imagine being asked by strangers “When are you due?” and having to go through 7+ months with a death sentence on the baby. Luckily the diagnosis wasn’t trisomy.
This rambling response is to indicate that this is a very fraught issue and not, IMHO, black and white.
Wildkitten
IIRC that comment was directed at someone who was spreading deliberate misinformation to bully someone into making a certain choice, and saying that this website, full of smart women, was not the right place for that tactic.
Anonymous
Exactly.
anon
That’s how it started, yes, but the comment was made as a side note, saying that no big law lawyers would have that view anyway.
Anonymous
Would it be better if we said they shouldn’t have that view? I mean we are talking about people who hold the position that you should be able to legally force a woman to carry a child. We are one of the only developed nations who still has people fighting this. If you are personally against having one, that is completely different and obviously fine. But I don’t think its crazy to say that if you are a feminist you can’t also be in favor of legally banning a medical procedure like this for women. (Also this is not really about politics- I tend to lean right)
Anon&on
This is false. I’m not pro-life, but there are tons of countries with abortion restrictions. See, e.g., http://worldabortionlaws.com/map/
Anonymous
restrictions are very different than making it whole sale illegal.
Amelia Bedelia
That’s my major point. it is possible to be a feminist and say a woman should be “forced” to carry the fetus. If you classify the “fetus” as a “child,” a feminist’s argument is that we are not permitted to take innocent life. And this burdens women, but it is for the greater good. I am a feminist and I am wholeheartedly for sex eduction, supportive services, any help possible, but I am 100% against taking what I see as a human (innocent) life.
anon
“And this burdens women, but it is for the greater good.”
Why is it ok to burden women in this way for the greater good? I cannot accept this proposition at face value. Our society does not permit or condone forced organ donation, even though that would be for the greater good. Do you advocate for forced blood donation? That would be such an easy way to help so many people! Our society barely condones the welfare state, which takes from one to give to another- and that’s only financially, not bodily! It’s not simply a matter of taking v. not taking a life. In this case, “not taking a life” involves forcible bodily donation, which is something we require from no other person in no other circumstance. So why apply this burden unequally to pregnant women?
It is appalling to me that a feminist- or really any human- can accept *forcing women to use their bodies for another person’s benefit against their will* as a morally sound position. How is this feminist?
Anon&on
“Not permitted to take innocent life” =/= required to support the continuation of innocent life. By this logic, shouldn’t we also require parents to donate organs to their children as needed? Prohibit parental refusal of life-saving medical treatment for their children? The logic doesn’t really hold.
Anonymous
This argument is just not logical. If you truly feel that way then you should also think that people should be forced to house the homeless in their homes. Or forced to give kidneys. Or forced to do charity work. All that benefits the greater good too. Why don’t you think that?
Also- please stop bringing up the “bad” women who have abortions. Is there somewoman in america who had one because it would interfere with her vacation? Sure, probably. There are also husbands who cheat on their wives with their secretaries or their wives friends. Things can be morally wrong without being illegal.
Anonymous
A “feminist” does not mean what you think it means.
Preach.
Amelia Bedelia
I don’t think I every referenced a “bad” woman who had an abortion. i think the vast majority of women who have abortions do so after heavy soul searching and make an incredibly difficult choice.
I’m not for people being forced to house homeless people in their own homes, but I am for higher taxes to fund programs that aid these people. And there is a difference between taking an innocent life and doing everything you can to help all people in need. I think we should all help people in need, but we shouldn’t be “forced” to do so beyond taxes, etc. but we should be prohibited from ending innocent life.
Anon
As an applied ethicist, my whole field pretty much agrees with what is logically coherent (pro choice). From my experience most generally educated people can follow logical thought too and arrive at the same conclusion. Though I’m from a truly secular place
anon
Thanks for proving my point. I’m unable to follow logical thought if I’m pro-life. Lovely.
Anon
Maybe logical but totally privileged and lacking in empathy.
Anonymous
Wow, condescending much? It’s a human life. Not hard to figure out why people would value it.
anonymous
I get what you’re saying, but this is condescending. And I’m pro-choice.
Amelia Bedelia
my reasoning comes from logic and a medical analysis. There is a heartbeat and medical science shows a “fetus” can feel pain. Therefore, it is a human. therefore, it should be illegal to end that life.
Anon
So heart beat and pain are your criteria for human? That’s not a good definition since it can include all sentient beings. Life is technically something that can sustain itself which a fetus cannot. So since a fetus cannot sustain itself it isn’t a life and one isn’t ending a life. Its this sort of rhetoric and bad logic (come on did no one have to take logical structure in university) that causes problems.
1L
This is a very slippery slope!
Do we close the ERs (or waive needing some help, temporarily, sustaining life)? Nursing homes? People in comas? People needing medicines? People needing CPAPs?
I had to fill in an advance directive and really struggled with at what point do I say pull the plug (withdraw feeding tube when I cannot make it to lunchtime without a snack? will I really feel nothing? can you pump me up with painkillers so I don’t?). How to write all that down?
Bee
It is totally possible to be pro-life and logically consistent, but a lot of pro-lifers aren’t (which I’m sure you can find on either side of the aisle). Here’s my issue: If you believe that life begins at conception, I completely respect that you should be against legalizing abortion for any reason. Where some people get tripped up, imo, is with the rape/incest issue. I don’t understand how you can believe (a) that life begins at conception (therefore abortion should be illegal because it is the murder of a human being) AND (b) that abortion is allowable in the case of rape or incest (so it’s OK to murder you if your mom was raped???). Maybe there’s a way to square those two things that hasn’t been explained to me, but on my own at least, I don’t see how those positions can be logically consistent. Of course that doesn’t mean that every pro-life person holds these (at least seemingly) conflicting opinions, and again, I can totally respect an opinion that is logically consistent even if I disagree with it.
Anonymous
Its the same reason you really cant be a feminist and want to outlaw them- most pro life arguments are much more about punishing a woman than protecting the life. Otherwise youd see legislation that said here are all the benefits youll get if you have the baby and lets spend more money on adoption programs, etc.
Curious
Are any of the pro-life posters atheists? Or I guess put another way, is your pro-life stance connected to your religious beliefs? I always assume someone’s pro-life stance is inextricably linked to religious views, but wouldn’t want to ask in person. TIA
anonsome
I know pro-life atheists. My FIL is one. It doesn’t seem that hard to understand that someone could think a moving, feeling fetus shouldn’t be disposed of just because it hasn’t been delivered yet, regardless of religious beliefs. You may not feel that way, but surely you can understand it.
Amelia Bedelia
this. 100%. it isn’t religious on my part. It is medical.
Anonymous
Fetus = fetus = fetus =/ actual human woman.
Please.
I am not only pro-choice, but, yes, pro-abortion. Save me the largely-American (Puritan-light) and theocracies’ (Saudi Arabia, anyone?) mumbo-jumbo. Moan until the cows come home. I hate this regressive stuff.
Anon
For me, it isn’t at all. Like if I were an athiest, I would still be pro life.
I think I look at it as an obligation to take care of the weak and helpless among us, so I feel very strongly about people who are disabled or have developmental issues or who are old or very sick. I can logically understand the pro-euthanasia side of that argument, but I agree with the Not Dead Yet people’s side.
Dangerous Bite!
My pro-life stance is in line with my religion’s viewpoint, but I don’t think it’s dependent on my religion. If my church’s teaching changed, I would still be pro-life. I think my beliefs are more caused by more own morals of what’s right and what’s wrong.
RED
Absolutely —– I know a pro-life* libertarian.
*”Pro-Life” is a misleading. For me, a more apt descriptor would be “anti-choice.”
Walnut
My atheist husband is pro-life.
Anonymous
I’m an atheist and pro-life except when the mother is in medical danger or the fetus will have significant abnormalities. I’m also vegan and anti-death penalty. I feel I’m pretty consistent.
Anon&on
Can you expand on “significant abnormalities”? Do you mean “incompatible with life”?
Anonymous
Yes. I should have been clearer on that point.
A
I checked the comment it was a reply to, which said, “Since when is this a feminist webs!te? I thought it was a fashion webs!te, where many of the commenters happen to be feminists.” I think you have misread. There are many posts about feminist issues like workplace equality here.
August
I have an other question for people who are pro-life. Do you think all abortions should be banned irrespective of the reason for abortion? Are you okay with aborting a fetus with severe chromosomal defects which will depend on others for its entire life if born? Are you okay with aborting a fetus resulting from rape? Are you okay with aborting a fetus to save mother’s life (like to save some one like’s Savita Halappanavar who died tragically in Ireland after being refused an abortion). I just want to understand the pro-life view properly.
Anon also
While we’re at it, how do we feel re third trimester abortions? OK? Not? Why?
I have a huge problem with that (while being pro choice). I do not see much difference b/w that and infanticide, especially when viability seems to be down around 24 weeks and I’ve seen <2 pound babies go home to their families.
August
I am opposed to third trimester abortions because person who wants to get an abortion had plenty of time to decide. However, I am not sure if I want it to be illegal because I really don’t know the circumstances when a woman wants to have a third trimester abortion. Out of curiosity, do we have an idea of percentage of third trimester abortions?
mascot
I’m going to really challenge the assumption that women have plenty of time to decide and that late abortions are the result of dithering about. A woman may not find out about serious medical issues with the fetus until the 2o week ultrasound (which may not be scheduled until closer to 21 weeks). She gets bad results at that appointment and chooses to have further testing, which may or may not be immediately available. Those results can take a few weeks to come back. Based on the test results, she decides to terminate for medical reasons (so she’s 22-24 wks). Depending on who’s counting, 3rd tri starts at 25-27wks. But since most states restrict you before that, decisions have to be made very quickly. Now, very few elective abortions happen this far along; most occur in first tri-early second. But for the women who have to make a heartbreaking choice, I am really supportive that they have options available to them.
Marilla
+1 to mascot’s very important points about how time limits actually work.
August
I agree with you mascot. As I said, I still wouldn’t want to make third trimester abortions illegal because we don’t know the circumstances under which they are making that choice. If the earliest possible time to know about complications is around 24 weeks, then I would support any one wanting to having an abortion at that point. However, if you wanted to have an abortion and just waited around till third trimester (which I am not sure who would want to do that), then I am certainly opposed to that.
anon
You hold two conflicting positions: You believe women shouldn’t have 3rd trimester abortions because you believe “they had plenty of time to decide” then you go on to say that you don’t know the circumstances under which someone would choose a 3rd trimester abortion.
Please examine this. This sort of thinking is harmful and problematic.
BTW, somewhere around 1% or less are in the 3rd trimester.
1L
I get that, but we can’t otherwise kill people who are dying (be it slowly or quickly).
IIRC, Rae Carruth tried to kill his pregnant girlfriend in part to kill the baby (who did not die, but has CP probably because of his mother being killed). I don’t think it should have been OK if he had killed just the baby.
August
I know what I am talking anon. I also made it clear while replying for mascot. I am personally opposed to third trimester abortion when people know that they are going to get an abortion but wait around till third trimester, or had all the information necessary to make the decision but didn’t decide till third trimester. If they get to know the information about chromosomal abnormality at the end of second trimester and make a choice to abort the fetus in third trimester , I will be fully supportive of them. That said, I still support legal abortion at all times because selective bans are just slippery slope which leads to taking away a woman’s right to choose.
anonymous
I’ve read several studies that show that the main reason for women waiting to have abortions is needing to save up money to be able to afford it. Not something that would affect women on here, probably, I can see why it would be more easily overlooked.
anon
August- Seems I may have misinterpreted your post, based on how it you edited it after I responded and your later post. Posts here don’t always show up at the right times. Apologies if so.
Bewitched
The comment that women have third tri abortions because they are saving money is generally not true. Watch After Tiller, a documentary on Netflix, about the 4 drs in the US who do third tri abortions. They charge $10,000 for the procedure, which takes 4 days. Many (but not all) of the women had recently discovered significant fetal abnormalities. They fly in from other states since the procedure is only offered in CO, AZ and MD. It’s generally not a money thing.
layered bob
I have these questions as well. I would not choose an abortion for myself but I firmly believe it should be legal for everybody, all the time.
Two close friends and I all found out we were expecting around the same time. All were planned, wanted babies. All of us are deeply religious and declined early genetic testing etc. because we were all committed to carrying our babies no matter what. Then both friends found out at their 20-ish week ultrasounds that their babies had severe chromosomal and developmental abnormalities that would not allow them to survive much longer, either in the womb or out of it.
Their states do not allow abortion for any reason after 23 weeks, and one of the states prohibits insurance companies from covering abortion unless individuals purchase a separate rider (and most insurance companies do not even offer a rider.)
One of the friends decided to continue carrying the baby until it died (which it did at 29 weeks, at which point she delivered her stillborn baby boy).
The other friend was experiencing some health problems as a result of the baby’s problems. The doctors told her her daughter was also basically slowly dying, uncomfortably and probably in pain, inside of her. She and her husband found this out at 22 weeks and because it would be illegal to terminate after the next week, had to make a decision about what to do very quickly – the law did not allow them any space to think about it/process it. Because of the danger to my friend as well as the impossible situation their baby was in, they decided to terminate the pregnancy – at a cost of $30,000 paid out-of-pocket because the stupid insurance law treated this abortion like any other.
I don’t know what I would have done in that situation. I like to think I would have chosen not to terminate no matter what. But I’m not at all convinced that’s the right answer. And these are the situations I believe you have to think about when considering if abortion should be legal or not.
If some people take the decision lightly – well – that’s the legal cost for allowing people in the situation that my friends were in to have the time and insurance coverage to make very serious moral and medical decisions without arbitrary laws and time limits and procedural hurdles hanging over their heads, and now a $30,000 hospital bill instead of a desperately-wanted child.
Lorelai Gilmore
Thank you for sharing this story. It’s so important to tell real, actual, personal stories that reflect lived experience. These are hard choices. We can at least dignify the debate by talking about real experience, rather than abstract philosophy.
Aussielawyer
All I am a person who has personally had a termination at 22 weeks and it was beyond the most horrible thing I have ever experienced. But without it I may not e here and would not have my now 5 week old daughter.
I am married, mid thirties, have a healthy child and in April last year at 22 weeks pregnant found out our much wanted and loved second child had no brain and no chance of living if I continued. Also if I continued I would have no future children. This was at a standard Anatoly can. Nothing strange had been detected at the 13 week scan.
I was raised catholic and had to face the most heartbreaking decision on earth. I had never contemplated I would need to terminate. I considered myself prolife.
My husband and I on medical advice had the baby induced and our second son was stillborn shortly after diagnosis. I will never forget hi and think of him daily. We had him baptize and held a funeral. We have photos and wear his ashes in memorial necklaces.
August
I am very sorry for your loss.
It is precisely for the circumstances like these that I am pro choice. Most of the times, aborting a fetus is not an easy choice to make. It can be devastating for many women. It helps immeasurably to women in such difficult conditions if people can refrain from passing judgments, make women who had to make the choice feel guilty, force their personal views and religious beliefs on others. It is very easy to speak and reason why some one is pro-life when they never been in a situation where they had to make that difficult choice.
Anon
Obviously I speak for myself only, but my viewpoints are formed by my belief that a fetus (at whatever stage) is a human life. So, in answer to your questions: no, I would not be “ok” with aborting a fetus with severe developmental defects or that was the result of rape, the same as I would not be okay killing a child who had been born disabled or as the result of rape. In the case of saving a mother’s life, I think abortion should be legal, with the acknowledgement that it is ending one life to save another (almost analogous to self defense). I also believe social resources for mothers, babies and children in this country should be increased tremendously, I am against the death penalty, euthanasia/mercy killing, and believe in teaching contraception in schools. No political party aligns with my beliefs, so I agree with the commenter above who said these are not really political issues.
August
How do you say with such conviction that fetus with severe developmental disorders shouldn’t be aborted? Is it just the gut feeling or do you have experience taking care of a severely disabled person or have watched a severely disabled person being taken care of?
I have a immediate cousin in a different country who has severe developmental disabilities and she is 35 years old and has to be taken care of every moment of her life. She is any other woman, gets her periods, gets sick and cannot say what is going on with her and needs constant watch. My aunt committed suicide when my cousin was 20 because she was so exhausted by the mental and physical drain of taking care of my cousin. I know pro-life people may blame her for not taking responsibility for her child, but I have nothing but compassion for my aunt. After the death of my aunt, my grand mother starting taking care of my cousin. Now, my grand mother is bedridden and cannot take care of her any more. Now she has been transferred to her brother who has a small baby himself. Every one of my aunt’s siblings including my mother have their own families, children, grand children and it is not realistic to expect them to take care of my cousin. Seeing all this first hand shaped my opinion and I would never change it.
And I believe forcing a person to carry the fetus resulting from rape and take care of it after it is born is just punishing the rape victim and reminding her everyday of the horrific tragedy she went through.
Anon
I’m sorry for all of your family’s struggles. Here, even less disabled children are entitled to social services and medical services. A neighbor had a child who needed monitoring and a nurse came to sit up with her every night so that the parents could sleep; they also used respite care so that they could do things with their other children outside of the house. Support is important. Help is important.
The rape case is, I think, different. If you think that life begins at conception (or at some point prior to birth), why is the child conceived in rape less deserving of life than another child? We cannot help who are parents are and if we were wanted or not. Why, of all people, should the baby have to pay the price (and price, life itself, that the highest available)? No one would force the mother to raise the baby (as is the case with non-rape-conceived children) though. And no one thinks that this is fair to the mother. It is that is more unfair and permanently unfair from the baby’s perspective.
Anonymama
Anon, then do you support the laws for jailing pregnant women who do things that may cause harm to the fetus? If so, where do we draw the line? Drug use? Alcohol? Caffeine? Deli meats?
Anon
Anon at 1:01, you’re coming from a place of incredible privilege. Your neighbor friend had a nurse come out so they could rest? How nice. They had access to respite care? Lovely.
What about someone without means who has a disabled child? How are they to care for them and pay bills? Moreover, what happens to that child when the parent dies? For most without extended families with the means and resources (and will) to care for them, they become wards of the state, which is a pretty grim existence. Homes for disabled wards are god-awful. Rape is pretty common. So is theft and abuse.
When a parent finds out they will have a disabled child, they do need to think of these things, and abortion needs to be discussed.
OP @ 1:01
I don’t come from any place of privilege; I’m just a taxpayer. Medicaid pays for this, not a trust fund or a fairy godmother. There was also SS-D.
I think it is very privileged to require that a child die (or disabled person) so that our lives are not inconvenienced. Better no existence than a grim existence? I don’t think I have the privilege to take a life, especially from the neediest among us. Period.
August
It is an insult to the people who are taking care of a disabled person to call it is just a inconvenience. I am a tax payer too and I fully support medicaid or other programs to take care of disabled. I don’t think I have the privilege to take a life. However, I don’t believe aborting a fetus under these conditions is murdering some one. That is why I think it is a right to choose and must be preserved. My rights should not be taken away because of some one else’s beliefs.
Anonymous
SSID has a pretty low income cap the parents have to be below to qualify. Yes, there are programs to help, but let’s not pretend that it’s just an “inconvenience” to take care of a disabled child–for a lot of families, it is a real, serious struggle.
anon
Anon at 1:01: Inconvenience is having to reschedule a doctor’s appointment, or missing the bus, being out of milk, or forgetting your umbrella when it rains. Newsflash- having a *rapist’s child against my will* is not an inconvenience. Good grief. Being forced to gestate and birth my rapist’s baby would be the most traumatic thing you could put me through. The fact that you wouldn’t force me to *raise* the baby (how **kind** of you) doesn’t make it better.
Anon for this
Yes! I am pro choice. I appreciate both your points. I do not understand why the needs of the person who is not yet born are presumed to trump the needs of a person who already exists in the outside world. I have not been raped. I have been stalked and I cannot imagine being forced to carry my stalker’s fetus/child to term. If I chose to, Great! But against my will?
We have a long, long way to go before we understand and appreciate mental health–and view it on equal terms with physical health (why do we insist the two are separate?).
MD
When I was in undergrad, there seemed to be a debate about whether this would be taught in med school and whether it should be mandatory and whether there would be a shortage of doctors in this area. At the time, I think I was probably scared that some BC failure would ruin my life, so all I ever thought about was the patient side of the equation. But I could never see myself on the doctor side of the equation.
Some hospitals will not allow abortions (while performing D&Cs where the fetal heartbeat has stopped and addressing tubal pregnancies).
But from the provider side, being personally pro-life (even if technically pro-choice), does ripple downstream. And some people I know would never perform a third trimester abortion since their experience with that fetal age is one of sending them to the NICU, even if they would do a termination at earlier stages. [Not just for doctors — other staff as well.] It all very complicated.
August
Exactly MD. It is very complicated. So I support legal abortion. A blanket ban of abortion is just inhuman because we don’t know all the context why some one is having one. A selective ban on abortion is just a slippery slope.
Amelia Bedelia
I am not fundamentally opposed to euthanasia. This sometimes reads like that. And it’s a hard question.
TBK
This is a fairly wide-spread problem. I believe a sense of orthodoxy has developed around certain beliefs and people who disagree with those positions are considered to be ignorant at best and actively evil at worst. I used to be a liberal Democrat and am probably now more centrist/conservative leaning (depends on the topic). It makes me sad that people whom I respect and whose respect I’d like to have, including many of my old teachers, dismiss many of my views out of hand, without knowing they’re my views (because the “right” sort of people know those views are “wrong”), without any sense that the other side might have a point. I think a lot of it has to do with the echo chambers everyone seems to live in now. For the most part, the Internet makes it easier for people to only hear the views they like. But I really like this community because of its diversity — and I don’t mean the color of any part of anyone’s body. I mean that there are really a range of viewpoints here, including people saying they’re X on this issue but Y on that one. It’s really refreshing.
L
I’m sorry, but are we really feeding trolls here? Anyone who makes equates pantyhose to reproductive choices doesn’t deserve the dignity of a response, let alone to be taken seriously.
anonymous
No, but it’s a good segue into an interesting discussion. This is one of the few places I can hear what a lot of smart, interesting women think about issues like this.
L
Maybe because I’m entrenched in this issue, but I don’t find the discussion here that surprising/engaging. I think it’s great that people can share their opinions, but I honestly don’t think an internet stranger’s opinion on reproductive issues is going to be very helpful.
ETA: What makes someone’s opinion valuable/helpful to me is the context of who the person is.
anonymous
I find it helpful because otherwise I would not know what a single other woman thinks of this. I don’t have female friends, unfortunately, and I don’t have any female relatives who didn’t abandon me in childhood. So I read about abortion as a social phenomenon, but would otherwise have never heard the viewpoint of another woman.
Away Game
Actually, I like hearing views and not knowing who they are coming from. It makes it easier for me to focus on whether I agree with the points raised and less on the person/personality making the remarks. More focus on the specific topic and not on the haze of title/reputation. (Note: depends on the topic, of course. There are obviously topics that require specific knowledge and expertise that are not appropriate for random internet conversations, whether particular legal advice or my house’s electrical wiring.)
anon
Meh, I am very, very well versed in the debate on this issue and the perspectives here are pretty basic. Not the most basic, but also not revolutionary.
Amelia Bedelia
Thank you. I agree. I am decidedly pro-life and sometimes feel ostracized on this site by comments like that. I’m often too exhausted to push-back, but it is difficult when we don’t all agree that educated minds can disagree.
Anonononon
A little late to this thread, but I don’t think this was covered above: For the people who have said they are pro life (i.e. that abortions should be illegal), what do you think the legal penalty (prison, fine, etc.) should be for the doctors who perform abortions and the women who get them?
LV comment
I live in a city that got a LV store just as the recession was getting started. Now it’s expanding. Everyone seems to have one now. But then I noticed something — Goyard bags where I hadn’t seen any ever before. I am spotting them not at work (but sometimes at finance industry conferences), but among other parents in my children’s classes and at church. Is Goyard the anti-LV? I feel like I’m watching a sociology experiment (that the TB logo comment above reminded me of), with my <$100 bag (but I won't feel bad if it dies a tragic death from falling into the pool / scary bathroom floor / overturned takeout accident / etc).
Anonymous
There’s something that just feels so wrong about tote-ing a noticeably expensive logo-ed bag that’s recognizable to church.
anon
That’s a tough one. I totally get your viewpoint. But then what about all of the people who also drive nice cars? And clothes? I mean, it bothers me when my church looks like a runway for sure. But I also dress nice to church, just like I dress nice everywhere. Should I wear shlubby clothes? I don’t know. It’s a conflict I have just about every Sunday.
B
I have this issue too (although I don’t think it’s what the OP was getting at). I work in a corporate environment and dress accordingly M-F. My church is a lot more casual, and it’s hard. I don’t want to look snobby or overdressed, but these are the clothes I have (plus shorts and yoga pants, which are obviously too casual). I don’t want to buy a separate wardrobe for church. Also, it feels weird to consciously dress down for church.
Wildkitten
I mean. I think God can see the logos on my bag the other six days of the week too. Church isn’t just for people who are pretending to be perfect. It’s specifically for sinners who are imperfect, even if your sin, like mine, is designer handbags.
Anonymous
Oh I completely agree. I’m not 100% against it, and there’s certainly something to be said for wearing your best, whatever your best is. It just jumped out at me that church is a particular place to notice new trends in luxury goods, and I find that problematic, if understandable.
But I’m coming to this discussion from a place of really considering how I can square my Christianity with my consumerism. Does it mean I shouldn’t buy a new couch even though my current one is 35 years old? Does it mean I should travel more or less? I have zero answers just something I’ve been reflecting on.
LV comment
Church is a red herring. In my life, I work in an office surrounded by guys, so my children’s school and church and the grocery store are the only people I really see women of my age (+/- 10 years) wearing anything fashion-y.
#needtogetoutmore
Hildegarde
I’ve thought about this a bit too, and I concluded that it’s less about specific items I spend money on than about how I spend money generally. So, if you’re donating 50% of your income to others and can afford to buy a Birkin bag with the rest, I think it’s ok to buy the bag.
Second, consumerism seems more like a mindset to me than the simple fact of buying things. Everyone needs to buy at least some things. But where this becomes wrong (I believe) is when you start thinking the items you buy will complete you in some way, or fix something that is wrong in your life, or that they define you somehow. For example, if you start thinking of yourself as the kind of person who buys or wears X thing, then you’re defining yourself by the stuff you buy rather than qualities I believe are more important (and real).
Finally, I think they way we treat stuff is important for this also. Basically I think waste is wrong, and we should be intentional about the way we use our stuff. So, if you buy a couch, get tired of it after a year, and throw it in the garbage, that would be wrong. If you want a new couch even though your old one is fine, and you take care of the old couch and donate it, I think getting the new couch is ok.
I realize these are extreme examples, but hopefully I’ve made my points clear. I do think these are important questions, and it’s just one of many ways American society is at odds with Christianity and other religions.
A
This is a tangent, but I think there’s also a trend toward spending more on good that are ethically developed. If you’re going to buy something, it’s probably better to buy it from people who produce it sustainably and pay a fare wage. Buying expensive things sounds extravagant and unethical, but when people do go the cheaper route I doubt many are really donating the extra to charity. If you are, hats off to you.
Hildegarde
A also makes a good point; I think part of squaring buying things with Christianity necessarily includes considering how the things are made, transported, marketed, sold, etc.
Truvy
“God doesn’t care which purse you carry to church, just as long as you show up!”
Or something like that.
mcmc
+1
Pretty Primadonna
I fail to see this as an issue. But, I like nice, shiny, expensive things.
Also, I agree with Hildegarde–God provides and we are to be good stewards of the resources He has provided. One can be wasteful on luxury and non-luxury goods alike.
Anon
I’m a sociologist so I’ve studied a good amount of consumption. Conspicuous consumption is frowned upon after the crash because of the ever increasing divide between rich and poor. Very expensive non-logoed bags are actually an expanding market where as logos are decreasing. This is because the wealthy can affirm among each other but the masses cannot generally identify the price tag. Its a fascinating phenomenon
Anonymous
Mmmm. There’s nothing the wealthy love more than something only very “special” people can recognize or access.
LV comment
That’s it! It’s like the Goyard is a some secret code. I couldn’t quite put my finger on it (and why I secretly pity the Neverfull people for having the wrong bag for my zip code).
Pretty Primadonna
I think Goyard is ugly. I wonder how perceptions will change when it becomes as popular as LV. Hmmmm.
Anonymous
It is fascinating! I do consumer anthropology in East Asia and while the non-logo luxury goods market is expanding in North America and Europe, over here logos are still very popular, and have very different meanings. It is fascinating, but also very difficult from a brand management perspective. And personally a bit irritating, because I need two different bags for two different continents :)
LV comment
That’s what petrifies me about pricey bags — it really telegraphs something (which may be: I’m not in the in crowd). I want my bag to be quiet (as in silent, not like the ones that whisper “we’re in the in crowd”).
GAAH!
anonymous
*sigh* Is it possible to just get a bag that telegraphs “This is a bag. It is for carrying things. The end”?
wildkitten
Yes. They’re paper and available in most grocery stores.
Anon
I’m totally going to geek out here but it’s amazing how Bourdieu’s principles on class can be applied to totally different cultures and consumption patterns
bridget
At least in old-school New England, the wealthy would quietly identify each other: much less crass than throwing it in everyone’s faces, and hey, they also enjoy saving money so their grandkids can go to Exeter.
Rich people would drive a Mercedes until it died; everyone drove their cars until they died, but the rich just had nicer (but not six-figure) cars. It is also nicer for the middle class: you might feel a lot better about your 7-year-old Nissan when the CEO is driving a 16-year-old Mercedes. Your black Payless shoes aren’t as obviously not expensive as the non-logo-ed, plain heels of your attorney.
Bonnie
I had not heard of Goyard until this article: http://www.racked.com/2014/9/3/7578483/goyard
Dowager Countess
I wouldn’t have expected that you would.
Anonymous
he he he…
RED
Goyard is the “new” LV (new in the sense that their monogram only became ubiquitous in the last 10 yrs).
As a side note – Are logo bags that distinct from non-logo bags? If you are carrying a signature style from a designer (e.g., the 2Jours from Fendi, the Moto from Balenciaga, the PS1 from Proenza Schouler, the Phantom from Celine etc. etc.), it’s just as obvious to anyone who cares about this distinction in the first place.
LV comment
Wait — maybe me seeing it around town (not NYC) means that it has jumped the shark. Like when we reached the Juicy tracksuit saturation point 10+ years ago.
Alanna of Trebond
Yes, Goyard is just like Celine, everyone can tell that you have one, just like LV. I like Bottega Venetta because at least they are leather and I pretend that it is more secret, but I can’t afford one anyway.
NYC
So, living in NYC, I’ve been seeing Goyard bags around for a few years, and was curious so I looked up the price. I have to say…I don’t get it? They’re made of canvas. They’re not that pretty. I personally am not into bags and don’t spend that much money on them, despite having the income (my most expensive handbag is Kate Spade and I bought it for $100 at an outlet). Just not my thing. But at least I can understand spending $1K on a beautiful, soft, buttery leather bag (brands like Celine, Chloe and Marni come to mind)… Goyard I don’t get. The bags don’t LOOK expensive (at least to my untrained eye), they don’t seem to be made out of expensive materials, and I was absolutely shocked when I found out how much they cost. Is it just because of the logo? Genuinely curious what the fascination is.
cbackson
Given that Goyard is totally recognizable as well, I’m not sure how much it’s the anti-LV. I also think they’re not very attractive and very much not worth the price tag.
Carrie...
+1
Seattle newbie
I just moved to Seattle and am looking for a new OBGYN. Does anyone have any recommendations, either on doctors they loved or doctors to avoid?
Annie
I go to Belle Grove OB/Gyn in Bellevue, and they are great. I see a PA (Laura Zaccari), and she’s great.
Brit
I really like Dr. Holly Sato with Swedish.
cbackson
I used to see the midwives at Swedish for well-woman care, and they were, hands-down, amazing. Be aware, however, that due to their recent alliance with a Catholic hospital, they would not be permitted to offer abortion services to you (regardless of the reason – i.e., even if due to a health risk to you). That is uncomfortable for many of the caregivers there, and they will refer you out if need be.
Note: I know that the Catholic church has a nuanced position on termination when continued pregnancy threatens the mother’s life; my understanding is that the agreement Swedish entered into is fairly restrictive on this point notwithstanding that.
Seattle newbie
This is all great feedback- thank you!
Need Hive Strength
Please tell me funny stories about your in-laws being all-up in your finances. My in-laws are visiting tomorrow and I’m trying to prepare myself with polite responses to inappropriate questions, and telling myself that it’s a them-issue, not a me/us-issue.
Sigh.
LondonLeisureYear
I think the most important thing is that you can respect that they are coming from a place of support and love, as much as you don’t really want the advice. So you can either grin and bare the advice and then ignore it all.
Or you can try to explain to them that you don’t want advice:
“I know you are concerned about us in this situation and want to help, but we would appreciate it if you’d just let us learn on our own. I will ask you for advice when and if I feel that I need it.”
Anonymous
Nah. In my experience people like this aren’t coming from a place of love and support. They’re coming from a place of control. I think politely you can say “that’s private, and we’re not discussing it” and then “stop being rude to me in my own house! No, you’re not entitled to know XYZ.”
But that attitude is why they are my ex-in-laws.
anonymous
A place of control or they just love to put you down so they can feel superior, which is what my in-laws do.
Need Hive Strength
It’s actually neither, in our case. They are weathering a big financial storm (of their own creation) that will not end well, and have always been somewhat gossipy about how other people spend their money anyway. So I think that #2 combined with shame and embarrassment over #1 is leading to even more judgment than normal about other people’s financial decisions.
Ex: I got a text last night gossiping about the high price of another woman’s handbag (which is 1/2 the price of the one I carry on a daily basis). So now I’m dreading a comment about my handbag tomorrow. Oh well…I’m just trying to remind myself that we live within our means, how we spend our money is our own business, and to just smile b/c it’s not my issue
bridget
If they are weathering a financial storm (of their own making) and are gossipy, then be very careful of mentioning that you have the cash to do what you are doing. You don’t need gossipy, broke in-laws hounding you for money and then sniping behind your back about how evil you are when you don’t bail them out.
Alternatively, they might want to feel better about their own situation in a misery-loves-company way.
Perhaps just keep repeating, “We’re not broke or stretched too thin, but we don’t have a lot of free cash. Like a lot of Americans these days, actually. Why do you ask?”
finances
I hear you…..
My father’s girlfriend is struggling financially due to a lifetime of poor decisions …. and she asks frequently about my salary, my rent, how much I paid for things, comments on every item I own (OOOhhh…. look at that… how much/how long etc….). Constant judgement/guilt etc.. And the funny thing is I am very frugal, and live well below my means and save like crazy. My family grew up struggling financially. Yet, she just piles on the guilt and suggestions.
It gets very hard to constantly be side stepping and changing conversation. I’ve tried just ignoring the questions, changing the subject. It is very hard for me to pull of the “Why do you ask?” and staring back at her. She just says, “I’m interested…..”, as if that is an acceptable response. And I am TERRIBLE at thinking of the perfect retort at the moment. I feel like I come off as the b*tch.
It definitely comes from a place of (unconscious?) control/judgment from her. And honestly, she is also clueless and scared so I try to keep that in mind.
But I hate it.
Need Hive Strength
Thank you for this. I feel exactly the same way, and our circumstances are very similar.
(former) preg 3L
I think having some canned responses helps — “how did/do you afford X?” “oh, we budget for it.” — but it’s really tough, regardless.
NYNY
My MIL is in a terrible financial situation, entirely of her own making, and refuses to do anything to improve it. When we see her – which is thankfully rare – she often asks about how much our things cost. She has even visited us and suggested that she could live quite happily in our spare bedroom. I mostly brush her off, but that one, I was so upset I had to leave the room.
Maybe you can play silent in-law bingo all day?
anon
I feel judgment from my in-laws about how much we spend, especially on convenience things like takeout, someone to clean our house, nanny, etc. Truthfully, we spend a lot on those things, but we keep other big expenses very low – small house, old cars, low bills. But my husband and I both work long hours, and we need to outsource, especially now that we have a new baby. What really frustrates me is when our spending gets compared to that of other family members where one spouse doesn’t work or works part time or is in school. We’ve had times when once of us was in school or unemployed, and we did everything ourselves. But our situation is totally different now, and we’re doing what works for us. No real advice on how to handle the judgment. I’m sure I get too defensive, which just sends the signal that I’m open to discussing it. Sigh.
bridget
“What really frustrates me is when our spending gets compared to that of other family members where one spouse doesn’t work or works part time or is in school.”
Here’s the response: “Everyone spends money raising kids and cleaning their houses. John and Sue choose to spend that money by having Sue forgo a salary and doing it herself. We choose to spend that money by both working and paying other people to do it.”
How’d I do? :)
anon
Perfect – I’m definitely adopting this.
Anonny
That is an excellent reply and I’m going to use it on my SAH MIL!
L
Ah here’s a fun one. When we got married, they kept prying about how much our wedding was going to cost. It would be something along the lines of can you imagine the average wedding costs X, or we paid $2 pp when daughter got married, to tell us how much things cost and we can chip in (which they wouldn’t actually do). One day, I lost the will to hide it and said something to the effect of “we’re spending a s*** ton of money actually” which of course prompted the how are you going to afford it blah blah blah questions. Finally, with a straight face I told them we were selling our bodies for money and actually thinking of keeping it up, so we could afford a house.
Life lesson: pick a response and stick with it. When you feel like you want to scream out inappropriate responses, leave the room.
ace
… but that makes an awesome story. Thanks for making me LOL in my office :)
KT
Just come back with ridiculous responses. My husband comes from an incredibly old-school family. His mother does not have access to the family bank accounts, credit card, etc. If you asked her to write a check, she’d stare at you blankly. Her husband gives her a weekly allowance in cash instead.
They cannot fathom that I came from a family with a strong woman as mom who managed the household finances…the fact that I have credit cards I can use on my own blows their minds.
They make comments about money management and how I spend my “pocket money”. ALL. THE. TIME. (Did I mention I’m the primary earner? That also blow their minds).
My husband does not share their beliefs and supports my snarky responses.
When they pry into what our furniture cost or my clothing budget, I’ll say I sold husband’s kidney. Or that I can’t be bothered with little matters like cost and how much could it be anyway? Oh, I sold my eggs for that.
The more ridiculous the better!
Walnut
Pocket money….hahaha. Like many of our careers can be equated to a paper route.
If I’m not being snarky in my responses, I usually say “I work hard and am fortunate to have a job where I am well compensated for the work I do and the hours I put in.”
KT
She also has introduced me to family friends and mentioned my job as a secretary.
I am not a secretary. I have a Master’s degree and make a six figure salary.
The fact that I could have a job beyond secretary is beyond her comprehension.
anonymous
Ugh. I do not know how you tolerate that. I would be SO irritated.
lsw
Hearing about your MIL made me think of my favorite Lucille line from Arrested Development. “What could a banana cost – ten dollars?”
KT
Oooooo I’ll have to remember that one
wildkitten
This made me lol. Thank you.
LAnon
My mother used to spend a lot of time prying into my finances and commenting on how much things specifically cost / how I spent my money. Finally, one time, I looked at her with great concern and asked in a hushed voice if she needed money. I managed to keep it together, pretending that I thought the ONLY reason she would be asking these things is if she was having financial difficulties. I kept saying things like, “Mom, if you need money, you don’t have to hint like this. I’m sure I could loan you whatever you need…”
She was embarrassed and offended, and has never said anything again. Of course, this only worked because I knew my mother certainly did not need money and would be appalled at the very suggestion that she borrow money from one of her children. (My mother is rather Lucille Bluth like, but less boozy and less funny.)
anonymous
Ugh, I wish I could do this. Except my mother would be happy to take all my money for frivolous use and leave me broke.
ohc
Maybe a heavy subject for a Wednesday morning, but I’m curious to hear others’ thoughts about the Groening verdict that was just announced.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/16/world/europe/oskar-groning-auschwitz-nazi.html?mwrsm=Facebook&_r=0
It seems like no one expects this 94-year-old man to actually serve any of his 4-year sentence–I confess that I don’t quite see the point of putting a single man on trial for complicity in 300,000 murders, especially when no one actually expects the sentence to be carried out. I suppose it offers some measure of comfort to the victims’ families, but is it really the best use of everyone’s time and resources? Or is that a horrible heartless question in the face of so much unquantifiable suffering?
Anonymous
I think the point is that it’s not a waste of money to assert the rule of law and fight impunity and recognize that the harm is on going. I think it’s actually the best use of time and resources.
When I think about how many Jews, and other victims, aren’t 94; and how many on-going genocides continue to occur, I can’t think anything but at last, at long last.
Anon
+1. As a German (and not Jewish), I agree wholeheartedly.
ohc
That’s a great answer–thank you for your thoughtful response!
I guess I was thinking that the resources could also be spent on genocides and impunity that are ongoing, but I agree that there is value in recognizing and affirming these earlier atrocities.
It should be done
But in the scheme of things, it isn’t much money at all, and the impact of these rulings resonates throughout the world and is exponentially greater than the money spent.
And it is the right thing to do. It sets a very bad precedent not to prosecute.
I’m not Jewish.
So much “waste” occurs in the judicial system…. Where things go to trial that shouldn’t (and things don’t go to trial that should….). This is not an example where the money would be better spent elsewhere.
Blonde Lawyer
I can’t comment on that particular case because I haven’t read much about it but I do sometimes feel how you feel with other very old cold cases brought back to life.
As an example, we recently had two men extradited from another country for murders they committed in the US 25 years ago. The perpetrators are now old and are going to cost the government a ton in healthcare. They weren’t even in the US anymore so there was no risk of harm to citizens here (though I appreciate there could be harm to citizens elsewhere but nothing else had come up in the 25 years they were on the run). I was kind of surprised that the time, money and resources are being spent prosecuting them and imprisoning them.
At the same time, if anyone is left from the victims’ families I’m sure it is absolutely worth it to them.
Anonymous
What would you think if you went to a business lunch or dinner and someone didn’t eat because they were on a juice cleanse?
Anonymous
That they were an idiot who doesn’t know the first this about appropriate behavior. If they were a subordinate, it would have negative consequences. If it was someone wooing me for business they would not get it. If it was my client I’d enthusiastically share how excited I am about the one I did last month!
JJ
That last line made me lol. Spot on.
Anon
That it’s totally normal where I live and I’dnsuggest skipping lunch and getting coffee or juice instead.
Anon
I’d think they missed the memo on appropriate business meal behavior.
To my mind, the memo says that, for a business meal, you only make as much of a fuss about the restaurant/food/menu as is medically, religiously, or ethically necessary. So if you have celiac’s or crohn’s, or a dairy or shellfish allergy, or keep kosher, or are vegan all the time – yep, ask the server whatever questions you need to, order what fits, eat it, and know that you might have to have a snack later if the meal isn’t substantial enough due to the restaurant’s limitations.
Your faddish personal preferences are not acceptable at a business meal.
ace
+1. Also, if you had any say over the date of the business meal and nonetheless attended while on a juice cleanse, I’d think you either are a poor planner or poor decision-maker.
Meg Murry
Totally agree with this, and the above comment about how it depends on whether they were in my organization or a client as to how I would react on the outside – but internally, I would think “juice cleanse, really? Ugh” – and doubly so if this was a long planned out business lunch.
Not eating because on a fluids only diet in preparation for a medical procedure – I don’t want to know about it any more than that, but I’d understand. But going to a restaurant and not eating because of a personal choice like a juice cleanse seems extremely rude and going to make everyone at the table uncomfortable.
Plus any kind of “cleanse” drives me crazy – your body doesn’t need to be “cleansed”. If you said to me “I’m kick starting my diet by going juice only for a few days” I wouldn’t care (and I’ve considered doing it myself but not enough to actually do it) – but the word “cleanse” makes me want to roll my eyes.
Anon
What kind of business meal? A fancy meal where you’re wooing a conservative client? Yeah, eat. Is is a business lunch during a big monthly meeting of managers I know and see all the time? I’ll eat or drink what I want, then.
coco
I could use some help from the hive (I apologize if this has been covered recently and admit that I have been an unfrequent visitor lately):Has anyone seen any good court-worthy skirt suit separates (blazer and pencil skirt) in the low plus sizes? I’ve recently lost some weight and had to throw out all of my suits, and I have some court appearances coming up. I’m currently a 16W skirt, 14W jacket. Pickings are slim at Talbots, Nordstrom, Bloomingdales, Macys, Jones NY. Thank you!
KT
Lane Bryant of course, but I’ve had real success with Dress Barn. I hate most of their things, but their suits are actually quite nice
anonymous
Pendleton
Calliope
Congratulations on the weight loss, assuming it was intentional / desired!
coco
(infrequent, not unfrequent – need more coffee)
Anonymous
How do you take a nap in an all glass office?
Anon
Is this a real question? Because obviously you do it in a snuggie and a satin eyemask that says “Princess”.
anonymous
http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/bcbgmaxazria-adele-print-matte-jersey-wrap-dress/4013582?cm_cat=tellapart&cm_ite=core&cm_pla=women:dresses:dress&cm_ven=display_rt
I love this and will probably talk myself into getting it. how does BCBG run size-wise compared to BR, JCrew, AT?
wildkitten
It’s a wrap dress so the sizing is pretty flexible, and there are only 4 options, but in the comments someone says to buy a size smaller than you are normally.
Bonnie
I haven’t tried this particular dress but usually size up for BCBG wrap dresses. They tend to make their openings very generous so the larger size provides more coverage.