Splurge Monday’s Workwear Report: Jacquard Plaid Wool Pencil Skirt

259 Comments

1. Long time reader, first time poster. I love reading all the solid input in the comments. Thank you all so much for your insights.

   I need some unbiased work/life advice.

   TL/DR: How do you know when you’ve had enough in your awful job and where do you go after that?

   I’m a junior associate for a niche market in a big law firm (transactional) and my very small group is totally toxic. Oh the stories I could tell…Lots of “why are you a lawyer/I’d quit if I were you” comments and trap assignments designed for me to fail as much as possible. Plus I commute 2-3 hours a day. It’s not a sustainable situation, and it’s completely changed me. I have actually considered taking my life in recent months. I used to be a really, really happy person but working under these people has made me question everything. I’ve started seeing a therapist.

   I’m very marketable outside our particular geographic area, but DH is absolutely excelling in his job here (though he is solidly marketable anywhere I would be). He’s seen me fall apart (it scares him) and is willing to move, but a) I don’t want him to leave when he is just totally winning his job (and what if we move and my new job isn’t any better and his new job is worse?) plus it would be tough for him to score as awesome a situation as he currently has; and b) we have really close friends and couldn’t ask for a better home life. It’s often hard for me to divorce work and home, but if I can have the weekend off, by Friday at 5 pm I feel on top of the world and so happy for whatever we’re doing with friends that weekend.

   I’m considering leaving the law entirely, even though I’m very young and it would mean I couldn’t ever go back. I have no debt (scholarships, working during law school, and paid off the rest). This experience has totally shattered any confidence I used to have, and even though I know I work for terrible people, a huge part of me also wonders if maybe they’re right and I’m not strong enough/good enough/shark-y enough/whatever enough to work in the law. Maybe I’m a soft millennial who just wants to be told she’s a special special unicorn and given a pat on the head, even if I used to think I was strong and driven and hard-working. I don’t know. I really have no idea who I am or what I want, but I know this job is not sustainable for my own mental well-being.

   Do I leave the law for something else? Do I leave the niche market and go into something more general, so I don’t have to commute and could have sooooo many options nearby my home? Do we move across the country? Do I hang on by my fingertips for a year until I’m more mid-level and we could both have stronger options elsewhere (or go in-house potentially?)? Do I get a different degree (I fantasize about this every day)? Do I retire entirely? Any advice is much appreciated. Did any of you ever feel like this?

   1. If your job is causing you so much discomfort that you are contemplating suicide, it’s time to leave, full-stop.

      Not everyone is cut out for big law–and that’s not a fault. That doesn’t make you a special snowflake unicorn, weak, not lean-in enough, or whatever. Different personalities excel in different jobs.

      While I’m not in law, I had a similar experience. I worked for a major Fortune 500 company in PR. I was working 80 hours a week and was just miserable. I was depressed and so stressed my hair fell out in clumps and I had to wear wigs. I reached my breaking point, and my husband and I together decided it just wasn’t the right fit for me, no matter how much money it paid me. I ended up working for a small non-profit (and took a 50% paycut), and am so much happier it’s ridiculous. The only thing I regret was staying at the corporation for as long as I did.

      You have no debt, which means you have plenty of options, and a spouse who works at a job he excels in. You have plenty of freedom here. I wouldn’t get another degree, but only because it’s unnecessary. There’s so much you can do with a law degree. You don’t have to do anything drastic like move across the country; why not look for work in somewhere that actually interests you? Whether that’s a non-profit like I did or a niche in-house organization, you may find that better. Or switch fields and so something else that intrigues you, like writing or marketing or whatever.

      Point being is, you are in a place of tremendous privilege and have incredible options. Your health is the most important thing and you need to take care of you.

      1. KT seems to blame it on biglaw, but to me it sounds like a toxic environment. TOXIC.

         I left a toxic midlaw situation for biglaw and it’s absolutely amazing. Your life, your health is too important. I think everybody below echoes the same.

         Even though my old toxic place and being a 2011 grad with crappy career services was a blow to my confidence, 2 months into my new place I felt like my old confident competent self, and I realized how truly horribly toxic my old boss in a small practice group was.

   2. You want to apply a stepped approach, trying different options in order from least drastic to most drastic. First, try finding another job in law in your area. I worked at a terrible firm and hated my life, but now work at a different firm and couldn’t be happier, so it’s pretty likely that your firm and not your profession is the problem. If that doesn’t work, then try finding a job in law in an area where you and your spouse would both be happy to move. Only if that doesn’t work would I consider moving to a job outside of law (unless it’s a JD preferred type job) because you would be closing a door which would be a shame if you’ve not yet had the opportunity to find your groove as a lawyer.

      Also, talk over these options with your therapist, and talk about the front runner option(s) with trusted colleagues. They will know variables about your life and your job market that we don’t.

   3. Hey girl! GET THE HECK OUT.

      No job is worth what you are going through. Your husband doesn’t want to see you suffer. There’s a lot of overachiever in all of us c – r e t t e s, but know that putting your sanity at risk isn’t worth it.

      Don’t leave law altogether over this. I’ve had my share of _extremely_ toxic work environments–awful partners, downturns, layoffs, crazy bosses. The thing is, when you are in the middle of this, there’s this “I can’t quit!” voice in your head that says you have to work through it. Do not listen to this voice! There are really some toxic work situations where it’s just better to leave. You will be so glad you did.

      Do not look at this as a binary “this place or no law at all” decision. There are gradients.

      Also, I know this is very hard when people are extra-toxic, but do everything in your power to leave your anxiety and anger and all the other emotions _at work_. You are more than this job.

      Take a personal day right away and take some time to scope out the job market. Also, if your firm is big enough, call their EAP (employee assistance plan) if you need help right away. On your new day off, come up with a few plans–apply locally, apply in next big city, etc. Your husband can move, even if he’s doing great. He would like you to be happy, not miserable and borderline suicidal. It’s OK that this job didn’t work out. You may even want look into taking a leave of absence for mental health reasons.

      Onward. Make a plan. Execute. Don’t let this knock your confidence. You are not your job. You are so much more than that. Find the place that will help you shine, not this toxic dump. Go get ’em!

      1. I agree completely. Don’t let this firm make you believe that you can’t be a lawyer. My first firm was similarly toxic and I thought I was a complete failure at life. As soon as I switched to a new firm, I realized that I really enjoy being a lawyer and that I’m a pretty good one. Don’t give up on law just because you work for horrible, horrible people.

         I second the recommendation to call your EAP. And, look into getting FMLA leave for some time if possible so you can get your head right. Who cares if it affects people’s perception of you at work – you’re not staying there. Then, make finding a new job priority 1. There has to be somewhere with a closer commute for you. Have an honest talk with your husband about whether he will move to another city. Mine was incredibly supportive of my move (even though it was originally a pay cut) because he knew how unhappy I was.

         You’re not stuck, but it can feel that way. When I was in your position, I felt SO MUCH better once I started making concrete plans to find a new job. You can do it.

   4. How much vacation time do you have banked? I would strongly consider taking this week off and jumping 100% into a job hunt. Also use this week to figure out if you and your husband can survive off of just his income if you were to up and quit. Cast a wide net and start searching for a new job immediately.

      1. Agreed completely. This is having an incredibly negative effect on you, and I would urge you to do whatever it takes to get some immediately relief and some breathing room to make a firm plan to exit this situation. This is NOT about your inherent worth as a person, your ability to succeed in a challenging career, or anything like that. This is about a toxic situation that is having a clear negative effect on your health. I am absolutely confident that you’ll find a position where you don’t feel this way and aren’t treated this way – this is not what being a lawyer (even in Biglaw) should be like or is always like. There are places where you won’t have this experience, and where you’ll thrive.

   5. When you’re in a dark place, sometimes your mind will tell you all or nothing lies that make it seem like you have no options and you’re trapped. I know. I so know. I’ve been there. But believe us, you have options! There is light ahead!

      You don’t have to move across the country, even if you are in a niche. Believe me, I’m in the nichiest of niches, and there are still ways I could translate some experience. Go do public sector work for a minute. Have a financial background? See about law helping fledging small business owners. Does policy interest you? What about government work or lobbying? What about a small firm?

      For a long time I had it in my head that I would be a failure if I weren’t a traditional lawyer the way they’re commonly known. Ya know what? I don’t like traditional law! And, haha, it turns out I’m not all that great at it! ;P But I’m passionate about policy in my niche and I’m really great at it. I promise, there’s hope for a great job for you. It’s not all or nothing. Take vacation, talk to your therapist, do whatever you can to formulate a plan to get out of there now. Give yourself a date to leave by so that you can have the mental relief of knowing the end is in sight, with or without something lined up. You will be ok!!

   6. You should start looking for a job NOW. Your colleagues are treating you terribly. This is not normal, it is totally unacceptable, and I am so, so sorry you are going through this.

      I would take some time off immediately – call in sick or take vacation, whatever is available to you. Get some distance from the issue and put together a plan. I know it doesn’t feel like it right now, but you do have options. You can quit immediately, you can set a quit date of today + X weeks (regardless of whether you find a new job), you can ask for a leave of absence, etc.

      Fwiw, based on what little personal information you provided here, I am positive that you are not the problem. You’re a junior associate with no debt! B/c you got scholarships, had a job during law school, and then paid them off?! That is awesome.

   7. You start by cling a recruiter and asking what is out there. Say you want something closer to home and that you don’t care about being in your niche. Get that information before quitting law altogether or moving.

   8. I’m not in law, but here’s what I take away from your story:

      1) You need to get out! You sound like such an awesome person and it’s making me sad to see you in a job that’s taking so much from you.
      2) But, try working someplace else before you quit law altogether.
      3) Sounds like the top options are to look for a lawyer job in your current area, or to look for a job in your niche in a different geography. How much do you like / want to stay in your niche?
      4) If you’re not sure, why not cast a wide net – look for jobs in your niche in different markets, and look for more general jobs lawyer jobs in your geographic area, then you’ll have more concrete options / offers to compare.
      5) If you wind up finding a really promising job in a different area – I don’t know how you feel about long distance, but this seems like the kind of situation where it might make sense for you to try the job for 1 year (or 6 months or some other agreed-upon time frame) so you know it’s a good fit before husband quits his current awesome job.

      Good luck!

   9. Do not go to work one more day if it is making you feel suicidal.

      Agree with others on the EAP. You may also be eligible for a short term disability or workers’ compensation paid leave. Do not ask your company about this – first see a physician and when they ask you if this is work related, say yes. Then talk to a workers’ compensation attorney. The attorneys usually work on a contingency basis.

   10. Agree with everyone who said you should definitely not continue to work at that firm if its making you feel that way. It’s not a reflection on you – it’s the firm.

       I would take a multi-step approach – take time off, set a quit date for yourself, and slowly begin to consider your options.

       – take at least a day off, hopefully you can swing longer, like a week. If you’re nervous about it, claim you got a stomach bug and just stay away.
       – check into EAP
       – Set a firm quit date. If you can do it financially, make it soon.
       – I don’t think you need to move. It sounds to me like you like your non-work life. I don’t know where you live but the firm you are at currently is not the only career option for you where you’re living.
       – I was in a similarly miserable position. I ended up hiring a career coach and am so happy i did. I worked remotely with her about once a week and it completely helped me see new options that I didn’t realize were available to me. A coach can help you see you have more options that you currently realize you have available. I worked with Rapid Evolution LLC. You can goog l e her if you’re interested. My point is only that a career coach can really help you decide what you want from life and your career and how to meld those things together. A recruiter may be a good call to make too.
       – Honestly, just because this firm isn’t working doesn’t mean that law isn’t for you. It sounds like you work for horrid people, made more toxic by the group size. I think so much of happiness at work is derived from who you’re surrounded by. You could try a small firm, government, just a different firm, contract work, in house, etc.

       I know a lot of people who were in similarly nightmarish situations. Most are still working in law, but working in a different environment and are very happy. I know one person who left the practice and is now doing some sort of consulting work, and she’s happy too. It makes me so sad that you’re struggling, BUT, you recognize the issue and are taking steps to get better. I feel like 2016 is going to be a great year for you and you’re going to surprise yourself with just how happy you can be once you put some big changes in place. Good luck to you.

       1. Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I have oodles of vacation time available–I’ve never taken a day off since I was told shortly after joining that vacation is “unprofessional”–and I think I’m going to take a full week to breathe, take a step back, and make a plan.

          Thank you, thank you, thank you to each and every one of you.

          1. I’m a mid/senior level associate in Biglae who has lateraled and who has been part of a toxic team but who has also been on great teams. I’d try changing to another big law job (or mid law if your in a weird geography) first to make sure it’s not just the people at your current job bc it’s hard to come back to big law if you totally leave. I completely agree that you need to get out asap though. The lateral market is good. Don’t assume there’s nothing near by – talk to recruiters first. I know the temptation is to flame out, but as my DH reminds me, you’ve given a lot to Biglaw already, you deserve a good exit or transition and to make the most of what’s been a bad experience, so use the resume to get to something much better! You’ve earned as much.

          2. Hey, I was going through a similar phase a few years ago. I reached out to bar counsel and was put in touch with the bar psychologist (he specializes in attorney mental health, go figure.). Best thing ever. At the time I was practicing family law and had been for close to 8 years. I knew the area of law, did good work but could. Not. Efing. Bring myself to start another case. I just couldn’t do it. I hate family law so much. Felt trapped because I didn’t know anything else. Bar psychologist helped me expand my thinking, think about the reasons I got into law to begin with and explored options together. He also hooked me up with a confidential job search support group and encouraged me to think about solo practice. I now run a solo firm focused on education law. I realized that I went into family law to help children but it doesn’t always play out that way. I was really suffering. I’m so happy now in my new practice area. I highly encourage you to see what resources your local and state bar have to offer. Apparently lawyers is a speciality some mental health providers specialize in :/. You are NOT alone.

   11. Just want to echo all the great advice here. Things not working out at this particular job does NOT mean ANY of the following – a) you’re not cut out for law, b) you’re not cut out for Biglaw, c) you suck at work/life. It means your current firm is a bad fit (for anyone, from the sounds of it). Absolutely if you are feeling suicidal, don’t go there another single day. But I strongly suspect that once you throw yourself into the job hunt and start seeing what else is out there, you’ll start feeling better (although please do brace yourself for the job search taking a while). I would: 1) take vacation immediately, 2) contact recruiters immediately (ask friends for recommendations, contact every recruiter that sounds good, get resume feedback from all of them, apply to every job they suggest – you can be selective when the interviews/offers come in), 3) if you might be interest in non-profit work, apply to every job with a JD requirement that’s listed in your area on Idealist, 4) check all relevant websites for municipal/state/federal government jobs related to work you do, and apply to all of those, too. Take at least steps 1 and 2 as soon as you can (take a breather first if it feels right, but for me, taking these steps is what made me feel hopeful when I was stuck in a terrible job).

       Assuming you don’t quit immediately for mental health reasons, I would also stop giving a cr@p. This job is terrible and you are going to leave it as soon as you can. Mentally commit to the idea that this job is not your life and what these people say to you does not matter. Let it roll off your back as best you can. Easier said than done, I know, but repeat the mantra “this is not about me.”

       A toxic environment at work can seriously ruin anyone’s life and make anyone feel worthless. This experience does not say anything about you. What you do with the great opportunities that will certainly come your way once you take control and get out of there? That’s another story. Good luck.

   12. You’ve received lots of good advice already, but I also want to challenge your idea that “I’m considering leaving the law entirely, even though I’m very young and it would mean I couldn’t ever go back.” I know several people who left and then came back in one capacity or another after several years (including one who didn’t even give notice and came back several years later to the same firm). I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s by no means impossible.

       I generally say try to hang on until you find something else, since conventional wisdom is that it’s easier to find a job when you have one. When I moved from biglaw to in-house, my mantra was that I would just hang in there until the weekend and I could quit the following Monday if got too bad. But it sounds like you may have already gotten to “too bad” and you shouldn’t feel bad about quitting if that’s what you need to do for your mental health.

   13. I love this group so much, OP you’ve gotten some really good advice.

       I was in this same position 4 years ago. Although I understood that I was good at my job and a good person I wasn’t going to give in to the bully. I didn’t and eventually I got fired. I was depressed, unappreciated and upset. No self worth because of that awful place. Before the firing happened though I started my job hunt full force and got a job offer the same day I was fired so it worked out ok for me but I don’t recommend it for anyone. I wish that I would have had an exit that I planned and deserved so in the future I don’t have to worry about answering the question about “have you ever been fired?”

   14. Please leave your job immediately, continue to see your therapist, and take some time to figure out these questions. It sounds like your husband and friends are a good support system–now is your time to lean on them. You seem to be in a good position financially to not let that stop you from potentially saving your life, and improving it.

       This was me a few years ago . . . it was really the toxic environment and the 2-3 hours commuting. I do the same type of job now as I did then, just in a less toxic environment.

       It will get better!

2. This morning I got into the elevator with 6 other women, and not one of them was wearing makeup. I always thought makeup was part of grooming for women, so have always worn it to work, but it looks like I was wrong!

   So, a poll: Do you wear makeup to work? If no, why not? If yes, what makeup do you wear and why?

   1. It depends on the field/age too, but I definitely think makeup is part of looking polished, but YMMV.

      I wear a full face of makeup every day; foundation, powder, blush, brow powder, eyeshadow (nude shades like the Urban Decay Naked Basics palette), eyeliner, mascara, lipstick. I touch up my lipstick periodically throughout the day and sometimes re-powder.

      I feel more confident with makeup on. I’m very pale with blotchy skin, so I feel like me without makeup looks childish/sickly.

   2. I’m in academia and in the UK so context may matter – I’d say make-up is worn by about 30% of women in my field.

      I wear a BB cream, eyebrow powder, mascara and tinted lipbalm – a routine which has remained pretty consistent throughout my 20s. On the bus, I notice women with routines like mine (fairly neutral make-up, natural hair colour / style) and heavily made-up and dyed hair (contouring, bronzer, etc). Many of my friends (PhDs and early careers in their late 20s/early 30s) don’t wear any make-up at all or wear only eye makeup.

   3. I wear makeup probably 1-2 day a week to work. Even if I am wearing it, it may not be super obvious- powder, blush, mascara is my standard routine, although I have been playing with lipstick more recently.
      FWIW I am young with usually acne-free skin, and expect I will start to wear makeup more frequently as I get older and have more things to hide.

   4. I rarely wear makeup to work. Occasionally mascara and a bit of shadow. I wear dark frames, which I think sufficiently accentuate my eyes.

   5. Yes, I wear makeup the majority of the time. However, there are times when I go through periods of depression and makeup is just not a priority.

      I do my eyebrows, eyeshadow and mascara. I also use black eyeliner on the base of my lashes to help darken them and make them look fuller. Then foundation, blush and lip gloss. All neutral colors. I used to do eye looks with multiple shades, but lately I’ve just been doing a single neutral shade on the lids.

   6. I wear concealer and powder to cover up some fading dark spots from acne. I don’t have acne anymore, so when these scars fade enough, I’ll be very tempted to just stop wearing makeup altogether.

   7. Yes, I wear makeup, mostly because I STILL have acne. Concealer (on the acne), powder foundation (MAC Studiofix), powder blush (I’m v. pale), Clinique Quickliner and a quick sweep of shadow. Sometimes I wear a sheer liptint like Clinique Black Honey or a Revlon or Covergirl pen liptint. The whole thing takes 5 minutes, max. I have blonde eyelashes but don’t wear mascara due to sensitivity, but I will wear it on big days.

      I don’t think you HAVE to wear makeup to look professional, but I think a lot of women, especially women of a certain age or complexion, look better with it on. You do you!

   8. Make-up is definitely note a mandatory part of grooming (like say, showering and wearing deodorant). However, the science has definitely determined that people think women wearing makeup are more professionally competent. Thanks, Patriarchy!

      I wear under-eye concealer, foundation, blush, and mascara pretty much every day.

   9. In-house here in a male-dominated department. I don’t wear make-up at all – it was a conscious decision. I used to not be able to walk outside the door without makeup on. I was struggling with my body image and self-confidence to an extreme degree. I finally decided that I needed to focus on loving myself the way I am. So I stopped putting it on. And honestly? I feel like it hasn’t made one iota of difference in how people at work see me. It’s freeing, honestly.

   10. Yes, everyday. Foundation, blush, mascara, eyeshadow, tinted lip balm. But I work for a cosmetics company, so kinda have to. I enjoy the ritual every morning. It’s my way of switching into work mode.

       1. Awesome! I wish I worked for a cosmetics company! A big part of the reason I wear a full face of makeup everyday is because I love it.

          1. It’s pretty awesome. I get to chat about makeup with my male and female colleagues, do field research with consumers (i.e. go makeup shopping with women of all ages and styles around the damn world!), and read as much as I like about the sociology and anthropology of beauty.

             And the best part is that I could show up to the office with no makeup and just tell everyone I wanted to experience a no makeup day, and they’d be totally into it. Love this job.

   11. Yes – though not much. I keep a minimalist routine of foundation powder, blush, mascara and chapstick. But I do feel a little bit helps look polished.

       1. +1 Also I tend to take much LESS seriously women with full faces, obvious dye jobs, painted nails, high high heels, and perfum, esp the ones that have all of the above at the same time, but maybe I’m a jerk.

          1. You are. A judgmental one.

          2. Ack, you know what — I apologize. I realize you’re offering the OP candid feedback, as she asked, and my response to you was unfair and unkind.

   12. I don’t wear makeup most days. I keep eyeliner and mascara in my purse to use if I look in the mirror and think, wow, I look tired. I also have tinted lip balm in my purse that I’ll use occasionally. It’s pretty rare that I go full makeup.

       1. I realized I didn’t say why. Mostly it’s a time thing, but also, I don’t feel that I need it.

          1. +1

   13. I wear makeup the majority of the time. Tinted moisturizer/CC/BB cream, blush (I am so pale), and curled lashes + mascara. If I have a big day or have extra time, eye-shadow, lip liner (close to my natural lip color + ChapStick. I just can’t do lipstick), and brow pencil. I have dark eyebrows and definitely pink/red lips, so although I can tell it looks more polished with the extra steps, I don’t feel like its strictly “necessary” (as much as any makeup is necessary). I also wear dark rim glasses, so extra eye makeup feels like overkill to me. Eyeshadow, if I wear it, is just neutral with a little shimmer.

       Ironically enough, when I had no kids and more time to get ready in the morning, I rarely wore makeup. But now I’m so sleep-deprived half the time that I feel like I need it to look awake/alive, even though I also need those 3-5 minutes more than I used to. Half the time I put it on in the car or at work, though.

   14. No, professional grooming = neat and clean. Makeup is not required. I break out if I wear makeup, thus necessitating more makeup. I look fine without it, so I’m not going to buy in to the extra time and expense. it has not been an issue in my career so far (clerking and Biglaw in the northeast US). I think it’s not a choice in other areas of the US, which makes me sad.

       1. I 100% agree but I’m very concerned at the comment/question that touched off this thread. Does that mean even if I don’t need makeup and don’t regularly wear it, you’re looking at me and automatically assuming I am not ‘groomed’ and am unprofessional? That seems particularly harsh and unnecessarily judgmental without other factors accounted for.

          1. +1

   15. Yes, every day — concealer, foundation, eyeliner, eyeshadow, eyebrow gel, mascara, and blush. The “routine” takes about 5 minutes and results in a “my face but better” outcome, not a “look at my beautiful makeup” outcome. I like that it makes me look a little older and more polished.

       Weekend errands, though? Concealer and a touch of mascara only.

   16. I’m in big law, early 30s. I don’t wear makeup to work. I have clear skin so don’t need to “cover up” anything. And frankly can’t be bothered. I also have a one year old and I would rather spend time playing with her – and I can’t motivate myself to get up before she does!

       I think I look fine and I’m in my office a lot of the day anyways. I rarely have face to face meetings with clients. I did wear makeup to interview FWIW.

   17. Totally regional. I work in Boston so makeup is optional here – even more so if you go north to NH or ME or VT, IME. I find the people who tend to wear more makeup are marketing/PR people (at least in the law firm world).

       I wear lipstick about 90% of the time at work and everything else is optional – if I am doing more I will do eyebrow powder, mascara, and a stick eyeshadow/liner. I do all of this in about 2 minutes at my desk or in the car.

   18. I wear concealer, powder foundation, masacara, and lip balm – that’s it. I don’t feel the need to look “made up” but I have dark circles under my eyes and am prone to chapped lips, so the small touches make me look more awake.

       1. This is my make-up approach- just looking more awake. I wear a BB cream, a concealer, mascara (blonde eyelashes) and lip balm. Can do it in less than 5 minutes in the parking garage at work. Makes me look/feel more awake.

   19. Youth and good skin can hide a lot. I have neither. So I am using a little more with aging (now in my 40’s). Otherwise, I get more of the “you look tired… are you ok?” comments that so many unthinking people throw out there. But I still feel like I a play acting putting on make-up and don’t know what I’m doing.

       Typical day I use concealer, a touch of powder, mascara/eyelash curler, taming of brows, tinted lip color or just vaseline and maybe a touch of blush. On days where I have time and want to feel more polished, I add a BB cream, eye shadow, and maybe try to re-apply my tinted lip color more often.

       I work crazy long hours, so time is valuable and make-up routine gets shortened. I also find that the more make-up I use, the worse it ages after 12 hours. So sometimes on a weekend day or when I will be working late into the night I give up and just use mascara and a touch of lip color.

       1. Really good point. I am in my mid-30’s and have found I definitely need more prep time than I did in my 20’s just to look baseline presentable. I am pretty low maintenance, so I still do the bare minimum, but it irks me and I know it’s only going to get worse. Fortunately I only really care about this for work so I tend to go makeup free on nights/weekends/wfh etc. Absolutely cannot wait to retire and stop worrying about it!

   20. Almost never wear makeup, though I’m in academia (science), so that’s not uncommon. It’s partially due to laziness, but I also don’t feel like there’s much to cover up. The biggest reason, though, is that I have extremely sensitive skin and eyes, and so much of what I try stings my eyes or gives me horrible rashes, which is definitely worse that wearing no makeup. I’m sure there are some things I could wear, but trying every product on earth to find those unicorn products is time consuming and expensive!

   21. I always do when meeting with clients because I look young (not in a good way… in a 12 year old way) and the make up makes me look more polished I think. On non-client days, I probably wear full makeup (foundation, blush, eye makeup, brows, lipstick) once every two weeks or so and on the daily, I wear bb cream and do my brows.

   22. Nope. I have very clear skin and largely work with men, so it’s a conscious and easy choice for me. Lip balm and maayyyybe mascara from time to time if I’ve got an important meeting, but otherwise, nada.

   23. Nope. I like makeup but pretty much only wear it for special occasions. During the week I don’t wear it because I like to get up and out of the house in 10-15 minutes. I also don’t like worrying about whether I’ve smudged something if I rub my eyes.

       I have pretty clear skin and have for most of my life so typically makeup feels like something extra and I don’t feel like I need to try and conceal anything.

       1. Oh and I wear glasses with dark frames. I think that adds a little oomph without makeup.

          1. Same with me – I find that wearing bold frames makes most eye makeup seem a little overdone.

   24. I’m in the south, of course, and I think women are perhaps more likely to wear makeup, but I’ve noticed that our younger staff are less likely to wear makeup. When I interviewed for a job at a college in PA, I noticed a marked difference in terms of makeup and jewelry from here. I wear BB cream, concealer (I look dead without), transparent powder (required in this humidity), eyeliner, shadow, mascara, lipstick every day. But I’m also over 50 and feel like I need something or I just look old and tired. I’ve been thinking that I look really pale and should probably use blush or bronzer or something but I have no idea how to do that.

   25. No. Really only wear it for special occasion outings and interview. Wore a little at night when I was on vacation. I do wear either moisturizer or CC cream with SPF daily.

   26. Another clear-skinned lady here. I only wear makeup when going out (and not always then) or when I have something big at work (court, meeting with VIPs, etc.). When I do wear makeup, I love blush and mascara. Typical work days involve clean skin, moisturizer, and tinted lip gloss.

   27. I wear tinted moisturizer, one coat of mascara, and chapstick or a lightly tinted lip balm. I’m 32 and have good skin.

       I used to wear more, like foundation and more eye makeup. But since I became a lawyer, and especially since I started working at a conservative firm, I scaled way back. It’s a personal choice, but I just want to be taken seriously. Just like I don’t display cleavage, I don’t want to emphasize a beauty regime. I prefer just a touch of makeup, so that it looks natural and just gives a little boost.

       I don’t want to spend a lot of time and money on an elaborate beauty regime, and IMHO, I don’t like seeing young women lawyers who wear full makeup. My gut reaction is that they’re silly.

   28. Most days I don’t wear makeup. I’m a lawyer. I don’t get paid to be pretty and if I’m in my office all day writing I don’t care. I wear makeup to work for important things, special occasions, if I’m going to see my office crush, and if I just feel like it. Maybe twice a week and not every week.

   29. I don’t wear much makeup but pretty much don’t leave the house without a swipe of the MAC paint pot and mascara. I don’t look awake without it.

   30. I have pretty good skin so I don’t usually need makeup. But I noticed if I skip it, I feel like I look more tired (probably only noticeable to me) and don’t feel as polished. So I try to wear at least pressed powder, eyeshadow, eyeliner and mascara. That itself makes me look more awake and feel better about my self so I think the 2 minutes a day is worth it.

   31. I never leave the house without makeup on. Ever. I feel more comfortable with a minimum of concealer and mascara on (usually this plus eyeshadow, eyeliner, blush and allover powder). On a daily basis, it probably takes me about 10-15 minutes start to finish.

   32. Nobody “needs” makeup to look professional. In my opinion, a lot of women look unprofessional because of too much/too visible makeup. I wear mascara, brow powder and lip balm just about every day (I’m just over 50 and have always been pretty minimalist). At my small, majority-women law firm, attorneys generally wear either very subtle or no makeup. The only women at my firm who visibly wear a full face of makeup are young support staff in their 20’s.

   33. Yes, because at almost 31, I still get acne and have crappy skin. Foundation+concealer+eye shadow+mascara+powder. If I had better skin, I’d go with just eye shadow/mascara. I am very jealous of people with good skin who can skip the foundation.

   34. Yes, I wear makeup on most days. Context matters here – so I am in Public Relations at a big media/entertainment company. Appearance is a huge part of the role (fortunately or unfortunately).

       I wear Bare Minerals powder, eyebrow powder to fill them in, eyeliner (winged is my current favorite), mascara, a touch of neutral shadow, some light blush/bronzer, and a neutral lipstick with neutral lipliner. I add concealer under my eyes as a highlight on the cheekbone, too.

       If I’m going to be on-camera or on a red carpet, I do a full face of TV makeup — which isn’t my favorite.

   35. I do. I really think it helps women look pulled together. I expect men to shave or trim their beard so women can put on a coat of mascara. Very few women are so beautiful they can go without.

       1. But I’m not trying to look beautiful at work?

       2. I think a more apt comparison to the beard would be having hair that is trimmed and clean, not makeup. Beard trimming doesn’t have to be done every day, isn’t nearly as expensive as makeup, and doesn’t involve putting questionable ingredients on your face that might make your skin worse.

   36. Yes I wear makeup. I was not blessed with perfect skin so no matter what I’m going to try to cover up my splotchy red areas, particularly the tip of my nose (rosacea) and my acne (oh joy)

       I am in senior management and I have always felt wearing make up was just part of having a professional appearance. However, my group has a new leader, the first female ever in that position, and she does not wear makeup at all. I’m happy to see it. Doesn’t mean I’m going of stop wearing it but I’m glad to see it.

       There is a level of makeup that seems to be very popular with younger women now that is totally unprofessional, in my opinion and speaking as a senior manager. If you are spending hours putting on elaborate layers of eyeshadow, false eyelashes and contouring and walking around with goopy shiny lips, it’s too much for the office. Following the online makeup videos can lead you down this slippery slope to the point that you think it’s normal and ok professionally, but unless your profession is makeup artist, it’s not.

   37. Yes, I wear makeup to work and generally. I wear a quick swipe of a neutral eye shadow, eyeliner 50% of the time, mascara, BB cream, highlighter/bronzer, and blush.

       If I am leaving the house on weekends and it’s not a true social get together (which gets same attention as above), I swipe on mascara and some blush and run.

       1. I have good skin 95% of the time, with the occasional hormone-related blemish. I like how I look with a bit of mascara and blush.

   38. About half the women in my firm wear makeup, and those that do often don’t wear it every day. I wear tinted moisturizer every day and occasionally lipstick. Sometimes neutral eyeshadow if I have a very big hearing or something like that.

   39. I wear makeup: full eye makeup, tinted moisturizer, and occasionally lipstick if I have a big meeting. But I do not believe it is a professional requirement — and it makes me angry when people suggest that it is, because it’s
       an unfair and asymmetrical burden placed on women.

       Why do I wear it, then? Because I think it makes me look twice as attractive. For an extra 10 minutes, I go from “ordinary” to “pretty.” That’s worth it to me.

       Many women have commented here that they wear make-up because it makes them appear “less tired,” “more professional,” and “more put together” — in short, there seems to be a reluctance to admit that one wears makeup just to look prettier. And I do believe that makeup — when done tastefully and correctly — makes 99.9% of women look prettier.

       For what it’s worth, I don’t think this is frivolous, and I think it’s perfectly ok for women to admit they want to look more attractive, and then take steps to do so. Men do this too — not with makeup, but in other ways.

       1. I wear makeup to look prettier. 100% I think and know I look prettier with a touch of makeup. Saying that doesn’t mean I am not pretty without it, just that I do in fact look prettier with a bit of makeup.

          1. No different than I think men look more handsome with a neat beard versus a natural but unkempt one.

       2. +1

   40. Yes, I wear makeup to work, but I do think it’s largely an aging thing. Round face + invisible eyelashes/eyebrows = looking like a child. I do feel like I need less makeup to have a commanding presence when I wear thick-rimmed glasses. They give my face more structure.

       I used to wear concealer/foundation/powder/blush every day, but now that my skin has finally cleared up, I usually do a bit of BB cream and call it a day in that category.

   41. I do not wear makeup to work. Ever. I’m in healthcare finance in NYC. Some women at my level and above wear it, some do not, and of those who do, there’s wide variation, from powder + tinted lip balm to the works.

       I made a conscious decision when I entered the professional world to not wear makeup because I didn’t want to establish the expectation that I had to spend an extra 10-15 minutes putting on my face every morning. I certainly put effort into my grooming, but didn’t want to create a personal requirement that men don’t have to meet.

       Two caveats: 1) I am fortunate that I have generally good skin, and there’s a lot of contrast in my features – dark hair and eyes, defined eyebrows, and pale skin – so that I don’t feel like I need to wear it to look groomed. If my situation were different, my choices might be, as well. 2) I do not judge other women for choosing to wear makeup. I really believe it’s a personal choice.

       1. My makeup routine just copies what you have naturally!

   42. Never. I like my face the way it is. I don’t dye my grey hair either. I suppose there is also an element of wanting to be perceived as serious, not “pretty”. Unless I’m getting my photo taken, make up is for date night, not work.

       1. ditto

   43. Here’s my “carefully curated” less than 5 minute plan:
       1) put chapstick on (whatever’s handy, right now eos)
       2) Garnier BB cream for oily skin (my skin’s not oily but it’s a great coverage level for me)
       3) Benefit Boing under eyes
       4) curl lashes
       5) brown shadow from Maybelline’s Naked-knockoff pallette using an angled brush, then maybe light brown in the crease and a shell color over the lid
       6) Loreal beauty tubes mascara (only kind I wear since it comes off so easily)
       7) Nars org@sm blush

       I usually skimp on hair time – ponytails and half up w/ a barette are normal for me.

       I’ve been told by some that I need to wear more makeup, and definitely if I’m being photographed or going out(Christmas, special occasion, parties) I’ll add in some bronzer (Benefit Dallas) and maybe highlighter although I am no wizard with these products.

   44. I never wear makeup (unless you count sunscreen) and I think the idea that it’s required as part of looking groomed is incredibly $exist.

   45. Don’t wear make up ever. Not to the office, not to court, not to meet the President. I was raised by a baptist preacher. I have no idea how to even apply makeup and on the rare occasion when I do I feel uncomfortable. My sister on the other hand does wear makeup. She dive bombed me at my wedding and put makeup on me. The pictures are so weird.

       Also, studies have shown that juries think women without makeup are more honest. (Also show that juries think women in minimal professional makeup are more competent. But I’d rather sell honesty.). Women in heavy makeup are routinely discredited by juries.

       1. Studies have also shown that more makeup are perceived as more competent. Truthfully, I started wearing makeup more regularly when this came out.
          http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/fashion/makeup-makes-women-appear-more-competent-study.html?_r=0

   46. Personally, I like wearing makeup and I feel a bit incomplete without it at work. I also love wearing makeup to swing dances and even classes; winged eyeliner is part of my signature look these days. I do go without if I’m just running errands or having a night in with friends or someone I’m dating. But that’s me. I wouldn’t think ill of someone who decided not to wear makeup to work, and I certainly wouldn’t say they were insufficiently groomed!

       As long as someone is clean, the hair is neat, and they’re wearing an outfit that’s relatively appropriate for where they are, I fail to see how anything else matters. It’s unfair to equate a bare face with wearing sweatpants or failing to keep one’s hair neat.

   47. I work at a large investment bank and can tell you that it is 50/50 amongst women in senior management positions. There was one very senior profile woman who never ever wore any makeup/did her hair/no jewellery etc. and I would often hear jokes that she looked “unpolished” from male colleagues. Coming from men who just had to shave I found it an extreme example of double standard. She’s now at a very high profile position and the better for it!

   48. Every day. I’m in BigLaw and would say 99% of the attorneys I see around here wear makeup. I wear foundation, concealer, powder, eye shadow, brown liner, black mascara, blush, lipstick, and setting spray. It takes less than 10 minutes per day. I touch up the powder and lipstick before meetings. I recently had eye surgery and could not wear makeup for 2 weeks. Boy was it an experience! I felt uncomfortable in my own skin. Like something was missing. I also had multiple people ask if I was feeling sick or working even more than usual.

   49. Skincare: serum plus moisturiser with SPV
       Makeup: loose powder plus lipstick and brow powder

       But I have really good skin and I don’t honestly care what others think!

3. Can we talk about how this suit and jacket are available in sizes 4 6 8 only. Come on!

   1. Ridiculous.

4. I changed jobs six months ago and have had the hardest time adjusting to my new company. I feel like I went from the major league to the minor league. From my perspective, it seems like people hold themselves to a much lower standard and my new company’s output, while slightly less expensive than my old company, is much lower quality. While part of the problem is my new company, I also recognize that part of the problem is my failure to adjust to a different company environment. Right now, I feel like the new kid in school who keeps comparing how things were done at her old school, and I know that isn’t healthy! I’m interviewing for a position at a third company that would be a fantastic promotion for me, but I’m worried that I’ll have the same trouble there. The third company isn’t as impressive as my old company either, but it is known for creating a good value product so I’m hoping that I won’t run into the same problems related to low standards. Has anyone experienced this before and successfully navigated it?

   1. It seems kind of early to move if you’ve only been there for 6 months. I think 6-9 months is a typical transition period, so if you get the new job, you may find the same issues (of course, if it’s a big promotion, probably worth going for it any way).

      Can you try to think of the positives of the new place — e.g., lower hours/turn around expectations on you (as well as your peers), etc.?

   2. Yay! Pricey Monday’s! I love Pricey Monday’s and Michael Kors’s WOOL pencil skirt. But $675 for just a wool skirt is a littel pricey, even for me, as a partner with a clotheing allowance! Dad read today in the NY Times that Conde Nast may be doeing away with their clotheing allowance. I will NOT mention this to the manageing partner, but Dad think’s this perk could go away for me, but he is prepareing by QUANTIFYING it’s value to me (and him), and then proposeing a PLAN B, meaning cash, if the manageing partner get’s wind of this. It was a VERY important part of my decision to stay here, rather then goeing in house or becomeing a judge or a law profesor, none of which alternative’s had a clotheing allowance!

      As for the OP, do NOT worry–you ARE marketeable in whatever job you work at. All firm’s are different. Companies also. I will go inhouse someday, and hope that you blaze a good path for young girls like me, who eventuealy give up on being OUTSIDE council, and want to work inhouse where we can come in at 9 and leave at 5. YAY!! So keep up the good work for all of us in the HIVE, and do NOT fret. I went thru what you are goeing thru when I left the supeenie firm to come here, and expect to do so again when I become a judge or a law profesor. But it will all work out for you, like it did for me. Trust me, and trust the wisdom of the ENTIRE HIVE on this! You will SURVIVE!!!

      This weekend, Dad bought me a TV and Myrna’s freind brought his freind over, and his freind immediately hugged me, but in so doeing, squeezed my tuchus. You do NOT do that when you first meet someone, I told him, but he thought I was DESPEREATE for a man, and he said he could “acomodate my need’s”. FOOEY I said. I do NOT relish the thought of another Sheketovits lounging around watching the SUPERBOWL on my bed, leaveing crumbs and popcorn for ME to clean up after. DOUBEL FOOEY!

      The buildeing handyman is comeing by this afternoon to install my TV on the wall. Dad already programed it to the cabel station and all the guy needs to do is to HANG IT. The handyman alway’s stares at me when he is in my apartement, so the manageing partner’s brother said he would come over to supervise with me, b/c I do NOT like being alone with him in my apartement. It is bad enough that the manageing partner’s brother stare’s at me also, but he has a woman that is over there most night’s and they make alot of noise in the bedroom so I do NOT think he is even abel to do anything if I wanted him to, which I do NOT. Dad did get a SAMSUNG, and he got a 42INCH size, which look’s cute. I swore that I would be on the elypical 45 minutes a day if I took a cab to work. Today I walked, and I will take the subway home to get there on time. YAY!!!

      1. Ellen, you shouldn’t dismiss this guy so quickly, as you are not getting any younger, and Myrna is merely trying to assist. Yes, you are pretty, now, but for just how long will you continue to reject guys? This guy gave you a hug, and perhaps touched your rear end for a moment too long. But is that reason to dismiss him forever from your life? He could be your husband if you give him a chance, and then you will be free to follow your heart and become whatever it is that you want to be in the future. Certainly you do not want to be billing 6000 hours a year until you are 65, do you? If this guy is in the financial industry, he may be worth another look. Likely, he is better than the guys you have dated in the past. Promise us you will not dismiss men like this until after you have gone out at least twice with them. The first time, most are nervous, but if you give them a second date, their colors tend to become clear by that point. Good luck to you!

   3. This is hard. I had a very hard time with this. You must be careful because you will alienate people by talking about your old place, particularly if you criticizing the new in relation to the old. It is true that with time you will adjust. But only you can decide if you are alright making the sacrifices to fit in.

      I went from working at the top place in the country for my field, to a solid local (my home city) site that is the “best” in this area. The contrast was startling. In my first place, work was the priority, people were very smart and very driven, the quality of product was incredible and it was very satisfying work. But the hours were so crazy that it is hard for many to sustain. I was exhausted and ready to leave, but assumed I would find these smart people everywhere.

      Where I am now, my shiny new place, people do good work, but they prioritize work/life balance as well as work/money balance. Meaning…. they want to get out of there at a reasonable hours, and they want to be paid well for what they do working reasonable hours. Sounds good, right? But I work in health care. I was trained and feel that this is also a public service job, in a way, and you go the extra mile for your patients. The expectation of quality and not making mistakes has to be paramount. That is my standard. It is shocking to me to see things that are let go, shrugged off, not followed up, not corrected….. in my new job. Stuff that would have never happened in my old one.

      What did I do? I left the shiny new place. I couldn’t work there and sacrifice quality. I am moving to a place that will have a similar level of dedication to my preference, that I am comfortable with. The money will be worse though. It’s funny…. my new job gives better quality to our patients, we work longer hours, and we get paid much less money than the shiny hospital. If only people knew that shiny hospitals do not always mean better medical care….

      1. I don’t know that your second job necessarily has it wrong though – after all, it sounds like the first place has a lot of turnover due to burnout, and I don’t think a burnout doctor is going to be doing her best for me, nor is it in my best interest to have to start over again with a new doctor when my previous one leaves after getting burnt out.

         For the OP, can you try to find some positives about your new company that your old one didn’t have? For instance, although the quality isn’t as high, is the price point much lower and therefore more affordable to a wider range of people (or companies if you are B2B)? Is the lower quality a much faster output? Is it more personalized or customized? Or vice versa, is it good enough and cheap enough to serve as a basic tool or screening first before a person decides if they want to go for the higher quality item? For instance, to use an analogy from this s!te – I know that a lot of higher priced items will probably fit me better and hold up longer in the wash. However, I am a slob with 2 kids – so I destroy my clothes faster than they wear out, therefore I still do the bulk of my shopping in the Target buckets

         There is a term thrown around in project management is the “triple constraint” of “time, quality, money” – you have to prioritize one while balancing the other two. It sounds like your new company is minimizing cost at the expense of quality – and that isn’t always a bad thing, just different. After all, we can’t all drive BMWs – there is a place in this world for Fords.

5. Poll: When your company closes for a snow day, do staff get paid something equivalent to holiday time or not get paid unless they use PTO? My husband and his partner are debating how to handle this at their small firm. TIA for any anecdata you can share.

   1. Staff get paid regular pay. It’s not a benefit they are choosing to use – it’s a safety decision being made by the partners.

   2. They’re all non-exempt I assume? (If exempt, I believe they have to be paid for a full week of work regardless, although, IANA (employment) L.)

      Anyway, anecdata time: My old Biglaw firm would pay staff as if they’d worked a normal day. It would go a LONG way from the goodwill perspective, so if your husband’s firm can afford it, I’d recommend that approach.

      1. Oh, by “staff” I was assuming you meant admins vs. associates; i.e., people who can’t really work from home.

         1. Yes, I mean receptionists, legal assistants, paralegals, etc. A few have the ability to work from home, but the majority do not.

   3. I would get paid, but I would also have to make up the billable hours somewhere else if I didn’t work from home that day.

   4. My employer’s official policy is never to close for weather. Staff can work from home, use PTO, or make up the time later in the pay period. This policy is a huge morale buster.

   5. Lots of good advice here: http://www.askamanager.org/2016/01/how-should-managers-handle-snow-days.html

      But in general – giving people a free day or two generates goodwill, causing them to burn PTO on a day when they physically couldn’t get to the office make them mad. However, if a small subset of your employees had to work anyway while others got a completely free day, it might be best to give the people that worked some kind of compensation (at least a thank you, preferably some kind of under the table comp day).

      Just don’t do some kind of “work from home if you can, and if you can’t, take a PTO day” in a way that screws over the lowest paid (typically administrative) staff that have no way to work from home – that will also kill goodwill fast.

      Also, it’s probably best for them to develop a policy for going forward, even if they wind up being more generous than the on the books policy in the future.

   6. I do – I am on a firm fixed price contract so I get paid for doing my work (errrrrrr, kind of – I also get paid for being butt-in-seat at my client site). I have other friends who are on cost + fixed fee contracts and do NOT get paid for the hours missed in a snow day. They can make those hours up (if they can). My one friend’s company gave her the month to make them up from the DC snowstorm last week.

      Because of this, I won’t ever entertain a job where they penalize you for snow. If people are salaried, I don’t understand what the big deal is – you should be planning to pay them for the year and for most of us, our work still has to get done even when we’re back.

   7. When I fell into this category – no laptop, support staff, no work to do on a “work from home” day – I got paid. I’m in a snowy city, too. They created an “inclement weather” category in our online time card.

   8. Our staff get paid as if they came to work on a regular work day. If someone is taking a vacation day on the day that is a snow day, one extra vacation day gets credited (i.e. it counts as if they worked the snow day, and did not take a vacation day on that day). This is about as generous as it gets, but our staff would stage a mutiny if we tried to claw it back. The vacation day credited was born from a lot of complaining that so and so had booked Friday off but it ended up being a snow day so everyone got the day off but only so and so had to use a vacation day. We generally have about 2-3 snow days per year (could be part days or full days).

      1. I should note that this only counts if the office is closed. If it is snowy and the office is open, you are expected to be there and if you are not, that’s vacation time.

         1. This is also our policy.

   9. My small Midwest firm (12 attorneys) closes when the local school district closes. We treat it the same as holidays, ie staff get a paid day off.

   10. Our staff gets paid for a regular day if the office is closed, but we almost never close to the office, to the point I think it’s a little ridiculous. I’m in a state that does not do well with snow/ice (and we usually get more ice than snow), and our office will stay open even when all the schools and pretty much the rest of the city is closed. Of course none of the attorneys come in because we can just work from home, and I always feel bad for the staff that has to schlep in to get paid, especially considering there are only a handful of days every year that would be snow days.

   11. If you close your office (can’t get it plowed, roads are not plowed, state of emergency, obviously unsafe driving conditions similar to what would prompt school closings, etc) then you should pay your employees for the day. A lot of offices have a “weather calamity” time code for those reasons.

   12. We pretty much never close our small office due to weather. We’re in a city center with great public transportation that I can’t ever remember being shut down due to weather. We don’t have an official policy. Maybe twice in the last few years, we’ve told people to use their judgment on whether or not to come in due to weather (and we’re lax with late arrivals and early departures on those days) and people would get paid regardless of whether they came in or not. I think we only had 1 person stay home once.

6. Re: dating someone who makes less money than you do.

   My boyfriend is a decade older than me. He is a lawyer, but his career has had its ups and downs. He was in big law for a while, so has savings, plus owns a house that has quadrupled in value over the past six years due to gentrification. After a layoff and some time of unemployment, he now works at a smaller, less prestigious firm.

   While we do talk about money in the abstract – how much to spend on a trip, what’s reasonable for X, etc – we’ve never actually disclosed to each other what we make. I am relatively junior in a tech position and have always just assumed he made a lot more money than me.

   Over the weekend, I took us out to a fancy dinner to celebrate a big raise and bonus I got. I was a little bit braggy, but hopefully more in an excited than obnoxious way. Since I’ve always assumed he makes much more than me, I thought my excitement over a raise would just be kind of twee.

   At some point, he said I probably now make twice what he makes. I laughed, but he said he was serious. I said “no way!” The conversation continued and eventually I asked “but you make six figures, yeah?” He shook his head and was clearly embarrassed.

   He spent the rest of the weekend kind of mopey, saying he regretted a lot of the decisions he had made in his career. And I apologized, but tried not to dwell on it. I think the age gap is more an issue than the gender gap – he is ten years ahead of me in his career. He’s always been crazy supportive of my own career and really excited for my wins. But, tips for navigating this now that I know he makes significantly less? Advice from those of you in similar relationships?

   1. Hey There….

      That’s tough and will largely depend on his attitude. I was in a relationship for about a year with someone who is a teacher and made a fraction of what I made. I didn’t think it would be a problem because we’re all taught that dwelling on the money makes us superficial and shallow. Well, I learned there is a pragmatic reason behind it as well. For example, if I wanted to travel somewhere, he couldn’t afford it. So, if we went to Dubai (we did), I would have to pay for 2. If we went to Spain (we did), I would have to pay for 2. If I wanted a nice dinner at a place I’m accustomed to dining, I would have to pay because he couldn’t. If I wanted to only do things we could both afford, it would have significantly limited our options and I wouldn’t have been able to do a whole heap of things I generally enjoy doing with my SO.

      In the end, he was insecure about not being able to pay and that came across as envy and weird possessive-jealousy about random things. In turn, I became resentful because I felt the weight of the entire relationship was on my shoulders. We ended things.

      Doesn’t really answer your question, but does give you one woman’s anecdote!

   2. I don’t think you need to do anything. There is often income disparity in relationships. If you ever move in together or share living expenses, then you should have a discussion about what you can afford and how to split it. That goes both ways, though.

   3. My SO makes significantly less than I do, but I think because we are married and have elected to combine our resources in joint accounts, it no longer makes any practical difference because it’s all “our money”. But while you’re dating, I don’t think you need to do anything with the information. Your respective incomes shouldn’t play a big part in your dating relationship at all – the two of you can just continue paying for dates, meals, gifts as you have been. If you decide to move in together or get married, then you will have to do some soul searching and have some conversations about how your incomes will be handled.

   4. I think the question you’re aiming at but not asking is whether you need to do anything to make him feel better about the income disparity – and the answer is no. He’s a grownup, and considering how supportive he seems about your career, he’s honestly probably just insecure about his own earnings, regardless of your relationship. The best way to be a supportive partner in this is to just do what you’ve been doing.

   5. What’s done is done but you were obnoxious. I would not be happy if someone questioned me the way you questioned your partner.

      1. The six figures comment would have really turned me off.

   6. Do you think you have a long-term future with this guy? If so, it will at some point become less about his and yours and more about your (plural) incomes and assets.

      In the short term, you’re conflating income with wealth. He owns a house that is a significant asset. He might make less day by day, but it also shouldn’t matter if you’re both on the same page regarding spending and saving. On the other hand, if you have different financial philosophies, it may be challenging to figure out how you will navigate budgeting and priorities if you are coming from different places.

      It’s also likely that the conversation made him revisit some of his past decisions, which had nothing to do with you, and wonder whether he made the right ones.

   7. DH makes about 2/3 what I do. I’m very lucky that it’s never seemed to bother him. I try to be sensitive to the situation but the vast, vast majority of him being ok with the disparity comes from him. Truly, this is a him thing, not a you thing. He may need some time to get used to the situation. (When we were dating, my now-husband guessed my income and, while he correctly assumed I was making more, he substantially underestimated how much more. The truth of the situation may just have dawned on your BF.)

      1. Like the poster above, it’s (largely) my money supporting our activities which was difficult for me to get used to. (I always expected that I would end up with someone who made more money. In retrospect, given my income, this was unrealistic.) It still does sometimes bother me, but if I had married someone who made more my career would probably not have come first in the way it does now. Give it some time and don’t date or marry someone who makes you apologize for being successful.

   8. DH makes less than half what I do and we both work full time. You shouldn’t do anything. It’s up to him to be ok with it. DH wishes he made more and hopefully will one day, but you can’t make your BF have the maturity to be ok with it if he doesn’t. Wait and see and evaluate how he handles it.

      1. My husband and I have had our ebbs and flows. He has made more than me, and I have made more than him. About 4 years ago, I started making substantially more, like 2 or 3 times as much depending on the year, and it will likely stay that way. It is all “our money” so it really doesn’t matter, and he seems totally fine with it. It may make a difference that he is wildly successful in his field, and I am middle of the pack in mine.
         We were broke grad students when we met though, and built all this together.

         In your case, I agree with the poster that noted that income and assets are not the same thing. He has a substantial asset in his home. If he brings it up again, I’d mention that, once, and then leave it.

         Hopefully it won’t be an issue going forward. If it is, well, that tells you something.

7. That sheath dress is GORGEOUS. And so very far outside of my budget as to be laughable. Sometimes I do wish I had a job where (a) made enough money to afford things like this, and (b) I wouldn’t get looked at quizzically by everyone from the CEO on down (we’re very, very casual here.) But wow, I think the dress is stunning. The suit not as much.

   1. That’s funny – I think the suit is GORGEOUS – I love, love, love it – but could take or leave the sheath dress.

      1. I like them both, but I think they are a bit “ladies who lunch”. They look great for church or a dressy social occasion, not for the office

         1. you think the sheath dress is ladies who lunch? This screams business wear.

8. I posted a piece of creative writing on my blog and have since taken it down due to personal reasons. I’ve always known there was still circulation of it because world.wide.web. But it has been brought to my attention recently that someone has hosted it on scribd (paid site?) without my authorization.

   Do I
   A/ submit a DMCA claim? If going this route, I assume will have to submit separate claims every time the same piece of writing is stolen and posted elsewhere. So can be tedious?

   B/ ignore and move on.

   C/ post it again on my blog so people don’t have to obtain it through other methods. I really would like to stop circulation of this piece altogether, so I don’t want to make it more available than it is. But it’s also upsetting me that somebody is making potential money off of it.

   D/ something else. A combination of the above.

   TIA

   1. I vote B.

   2. Scribd is notorious for copyright infringement. They receive thousands of DMCAs every year; most don’t go anywhere.

      They do offer a copyright protection system called BookID; you can open one even if you don’t plan to publish on Scribd and you just want to ensure no one else posts your copyrighted work

9. I have a “how much of a brat am I” question. My husband sends flowers to me at work on special occasions. We live in a pretty small town and there is only one reliable florist in town (“Good Florist”). Every time I have received/given an arrangement from another florist, there are some dead or wilted flowers. Good Florist is the only one that delivers arrangements with no dead flowers. The prices on their website are higher than the other florists, but they will make a lovely arrangement at just about any price point if you call them.

   For reasons that are beyond me, my husband refuses to use Good Florist. I have told him about the problems with the other florists many times. I have told him he can just call Good Florist and they will put something together that I will be able to enjoy. I have told him that it bothers me that “his” (read: our) money is completely wasted on dead flowers. He still refuses to use Good Florist. He also pesters me about the flowers. He doesn’t just accept “Thank you for the flowers, I love you” and a picture of the flowers. He will continue to prod me until I either say they are great or there are a lot of dead flowers (and he gets upset).

   I’m also frustrated at myself that I’m getting angry and resentful over what is supposed to be a loving gesture. This is such a non-issue in the grand scheme of a marriage. I don’t want to feel this way about stupid flowers anymore. I’m at the point that I want to just ask him to please not send me flowers anymore. Am I being a total brat? Any thoughts on how to handle this?

   1. Yes! You are being a complete brat. Dear God woman have you never heard the phrase don’t look a gift horse in the mouth?

      What you should do is say “thank you so much for the flowers. They’re beautiful and I love looking at them and knowing how much you care about me.”

      1. Yep – sorry lady, but there are thousands of women who would love to be sent flowers at work (or given flowers at all!) and you are being ungrateful for what is a very thoughtful gesture. If you have issues with the quality of the arrangement, call the florist and complain.

         1. This is how I handled it for the first couple of years; I did this before I ever said anything to my husband. Some of the florists have been great about sending out a replacement arrangement, but the replacement also has dead flowers. Other florists are not great. One man yelled and me and called me a liar, and refused to even look at a picture of the dead flowers. After that experience, I started telling my husband about it and suggested he use the other florist. This isn’t a one time thing, these conversations have been evolving over years and years, and I’m at the point that I’m really tired of it.

            1. Then stop having the conversations! It’s incredibly rude to complain about a gift. Rude rude rude!

            2. OMG just stop complaining. It’s a gift. If someone else were to give you flowers, say a friend for your birthday, would you tell her it was a crappy florist? No? Then don’t do it to your husband.

      2. + 1

   2. I disagree with Anonymous. I find that kind of behavior (your husband’s) passive-aggressive. If he knows that the other florists deliver dead flowers and he seems to be concerned that you love them and are happy with him, why the h3ll wouldn’t he use the better florist. Sounds stubborn to me and I think you’re right to be annoyed.

      1. Maybe he’s being stubborn because he thinks it is absurd his entitled princess of a wife is actually complaining that a nice gift isn’t up to her special special standards and is digging in his heels?

         1. I asked for advice and I appreciate your perspective. But it’s rude and uncalled for to call me names.

            1. You asked if you were being a brat, and if so how much of a brat. My answer is “entitled princess” level of brat-ness. Deal with it.

            2. Having been called “princess” here myself (perhaps by the same Anonymous?), I agree with OP: the name-calling adds nothing but meanness.

         2. I don’t know, Anonymous. I was married to a man who behaved like this and found it very frustrating. I get that you disagree with me and feel strongly otherwise, but like OP, I think name-calling is uncalled for.

         3. Also, I’m not sure that “dislikes dead flowers in a costly floral arrangement” really counts as “special special standards”.

            1. +++

         4. That’s not a very nice tone to bring here. I don’t know how you feel but name-calling is not really in the spirit of this community and is not particularly mature.

      2. Agree with this. I’m tired of all the commenters on this site who are willing to excuse anything in a man as long as he throws you a bone once in a while. He’s wasting money on a dead product despite a stated preference otherwise. I’d rather not get flowers at all than dead ones time after time after time (once is fine, but repeatedly when a great alternative is available? No). OP, you’re fine, and don’t listen to the women on this site who would actually personally insult you for not wanting dead flowers.

         1. Maybe I missed something…but what behavior is the OP excusing? That he sends her flowers from a non-preferred florist? The OP even said that it’s only some of the blooms–it’s not like a sad wilted arrangement arrives, it just has a few wilted blossoms–that happens. I don’t see how this is a signal of an evil man, and I’m usually the ‘rette man-hater.

            1. “a few wilted blossoms” shouldn’t happen, though. A maximum of an hour or two should go by between an arrangement being created and it being delivered. If there are wilted flowers, they were almost certainly wilted when the florist selected them. Flowers are a tough business — the supply chain has to work perfectly and your inventory has to be turned over quickly, or else you need to choose between throwing it away or knowingly providing a bad product. But if you deliver a bad product, you lose business (unless you have customers like OP’s husband!).

      3. Yeah, this whole thing sounds weird. It seems like he is setting you up to either lie to him or cause a ruckus if you are honest.

         Have you asked him why he refuses to use Good Florist? Is there any possibility he’s had a bad experience with them and just doesn’t feel good about using them? Because the behavior you’re describing just sounds twisted and bizarre in the absence of some explanation like “I called them one time and they embarrassed/insulted me in the following way…”

      4. I’m with NOLA. I don’t think you’re being bratty — and please, enough with the insults, everyone — partly because it’s your money being wasted too but, more significantly, because H seems to want you to ooh and ah over how great the flowers are when they’re not. Everyone is telling you just say thanks, they’re a gift!, but you say he is not happy with a simple and reasonably enthusiastic thanks. So it does seem passive-aggressive.

      5. Yeah, it wasn’t an answer option but I kinda think he’s being a brat here.
         “Don’t you love my gift? Isn’t it exactly what you always wanted? What?! It’s not! You’re so ungrateful!”

   3. I’m sorry, this is brat territory.

      If it annoys you this much, tell him you’ve had enough flowers. Maybe he’ll bring candy or wine instead.

      Otherwise, suck it up and enjoy the flowers (wilted blooms and all)

      1. But his wine choices are sooo bad….
         (just kidding. But if this is the regular gift dynamic in this couple, it could/will happen…)

         1. HA good point

   4. If it were me, I’d kindly say to DH that it’s very sweet of him to send me flowers, but I don’t want our money to be spent that way and would prefer if he stopped sending them and we can enjoy a meal out together (or whatever else) on special occasions instead. But I also know my SO wouldn’t be upset by that, so YMMV.

      1. +1 My DH used to buy me a single rose at every trip to the grocery store. I hate roses – I felt like it was more about him checking off a box for what a good DH was supposed to do vs thinking about what I’d like. I said that I felt the roses made me feel like he didn’t know me very well and I would love it if instead he remembered to buy some of the fresh produce I love but he never remembers (dragonfruit and starfruit). He switched immediately and wasn’t offended.

         1. This this this this THIS!!

            “checking off a box”
            “what a good DH was supposed to do”

            “vs thinking about what I’d like”

            If the gesture were truly loving, rather than about him in some way, OP’s husband’s reaction would have been the along the same line as Anonymous’ husband’s reaction of switching to buying fresh produce that she loves.

   5. My comment will not post here (maybe it’s in moderation? I don’t know), but it’s disturbing how quickly OP is getting called a brat by seemingly professional women. It’s okay to have likes and dislikes and not be ever so grateful to your husband for sending you something you have repeatedly addressed with him. It’s okay to not want to spend money on costly flowers that arrive dead every time. Your husband sounds like he is being passive aggressive, which is certainly not worthy of praise.

      1. She ASKED!!! She is the one who said am I a brat and if so how much? My goodness please go white knight someone else.

         1. Wow. I’m sorry for whatever issue is going on in your life that makes you think it’s okay to denigrate a woman posting a perfectly reasonable question, as well as a woman posting a perfectly reasonable response. Please take care of yourself.

            1. Girl. Get a grip. She’s moaning and whining because the flowers her loving husband frequently sends are not quite up to snuff.

            2. Sometimes the things we hate in others are the things we hate in ourselves…

         2. Trollnonymous! You’re back!

      2. +1 this is weirdly passive aggressive – why would he want to keep spending money at a place that’s giving him poor value?

   6. Is the florist a client? My dad buys my mom jewelry from one jeweler in their small town for this reason. My mom is appreciative, though doesn’t necessarily love the aesthetic. If there is a business relationship underlying this particular florist, then I’d let it go, let it go, let it go. Pull out the surviving blooms and artfully arrange in one of the smaller leftover vases from a past arrangement. I do this all the time with my (ahem, cheap self-purchased) grocery store flowers.

      Or, at a time before any such flowers are likely to arrive (like now pre-ordering for Valentine’s day), sit down with your husband and suggest an alternative to flowers completely. As in, hey – let’s put that money toward a couples’ massage so we can both get the benefit of it! It probably stings for him to hear after the fact that the flowers were a waste of money, which is probably what your comments sound like to him.

   7. Let it go.

      Pull out the dead flowers when they arrive, and enjoy the rest of the bouquet. Or call the florist and let them know.

      To your husband – say “thank you”. For whatever reason, he wants to skimp on $$ and not go with the pricey florist. I know many frugal men that would do the same, actually! He’s not going to change, so no reason to make him feel guilty when the gesture is still a lovely one.

      It is amazing your husband sends you flowers. Totally amazing. I don’t have a single female friend that receives flowers like you. Just remember, sometimes these things are not all about you and your needs.

   8. If you’ve talked to your husband about this multiple times over many years, I completely understand the frustration. I can’t say I’d be too pleased if I kept getting boxes of rotten chocolates or a gift certificate to a steak restaurant if I were a vegetarian or any other gift that I can’t get enjoyment out of from my husband when perfectly good other options are available. The thing that bothers me is that your husband keeps expecting effusive praise like you described – if he just let you get away with a “thank you, I love you!”, that would be one thing, but why the eff should you have to respond with “omg, these are the greatest ever, thank you so much, these are so beautiful!” when they are downright DEAD? It’s absurd, and honestly sounds manipulative. I hope I’m just misreading it, but it seems like strange behavior on his part.

      1. I agree about the strange behavior. If I was sending flowers, I wouldn’t want to continue using a florist where the arrangements contained dead flowers.

         How I see it is that you’ve told your husband about a situation that bothers you, but he hasn’t changed the behavior. Maybe I’m just sensitive to stuff like that based on a past relationship issues, but I find that bothersome.

   9. Heh, my husband’s family owned several flower shops when he was growing up, so he is -very- particular about flowers. If I sent him “bad” flowers or if I were to buy “bad” flowers for our house, he would respond just the way you do. If the same florist consistently delivered a poor quality product, he would throw a fit if I continued to patronize them. I’m not sure why your husband gives his business to merchants who deliver a poor product… I get the cost thing, but a good florist, as you said, will make a nice arrangement at any price point. Maybe he doesn’t know that you can just call a florist and say “I’d like a $30 arrangement. If you could include (favorite flower) that would be great,” instead of picking some premade picture off the internet. Maybe tell him that gently? Your husband is being an irrational consumer, and I don’t think you’re totally out of line to be annoyed, as long as you are still expressing appreciation for the gesture.

   10. Hunch—
       Does Good Florist have online ordering? I bet it doesn’t. And I bet your husband is one of those people who would rather die than talk on the phone, especially about choosing a floral arrangement.

       1. Oh god this.

          There are three Chinese restaurants in my town. Only one of them allows online ordering, and it’s terrible. My SO refuses to talk on the phone when he can avoid it, so we ate terrible Chinese food for a year before I figured out what was going on.

          It’s pretty hilarious, and I’m willing to chalk it up to price of admission 95% of the time, and be the one to call to order food for the rest of our lives.

       2. Funny you and I (below) posted at the same time about the same phone-avoidance issue.

       3. That’s interesting, this might be it. Good Florist has a website, but most of their advertised prices are a bit high. I always call because I don’t have the time or inclination to search through an online ordering system that has a limited selection in my price range. I just ask for a seasonal arrangement in my price range ($30-50) and the flowers have always been gorgeous.

          1. Yeah, I’m thinking there’s something about ordering from Good Florist that is unpleasant for him and that’s what’s going on here.

          2. I am all over this thread, but whatever. All of this might be down to online ordering vs phone ordering. My florist MIL hate hate hates that she has to take online teleflora-esque orders, because when someone picks a picture off the internet, they expect those flowers and you can’t really substitute something totally different, even if it is fresher and prettier. The not-so-good florists (especially those who were responsive when you called to complain about the dead/wilted blooms) might be better with a call-in order, too. When you call and just specify a price range, you usually get what the florist knows to be the best he/she can do for that price range.

             Moral of the story, unless you absolutely must have [specific flower], you will get the best product by giving the florist a price range and artistic license. I didn’t know that until I married into a florist family, otherwise my default would be online ordering, too.

   11. I’m so confused. How dead are these flowers? I can’t understand why your husband would keep using a sub par florist, but this seems like a weird choice for a passive aggressive behavior to me. I’d bet there’s some other, less sinister reason he keeps using them.

       1. That’s my question, too. Are these flowers really dead? Because I used to know someone who had a huge tantrum every time her boyfriend sent flowers because they were never fresh enough, or they died too soon, or one of the roses didn’t fully open. It’s a little weird that every time you get a bouquet from any florist there are dead flowers. Are your floral standards the real issue?

   12. My husband used to send me flowers from time to time. For some reason he has a real avoidance of picking up a phone and talking to someone and prefers to do everything over the internet. So I would always get the kind that came in a box and if have to put them in a vase myself.

       The bouquets never looked anything like the online photos and there is a really great florist around the corner but I didn’t want to get into it. I just nicely told my husband that the thought was nice but that I didn’t need flowers any more.

       My compromise is that I buy myself flowers every once in a while, which has turned out to be much less often than I thought it would be.

       So now I don’t get flowers from my husband and it doesn’t bug me at all.

   13. Yes. You are a huge entitled brat.

       You asked.

   14. On the one hand, I see the point of the posters who are saying you’re “bratty” – there is something very, very #firstworldproblems about complaining about your H’s choice of florist, and if it was just the issue of “there’s a better option and he’s not using it,” I’d tell you to stop trying to optimize your H and let him do what he’s doing and say thank you.

       BUT. He’s expecting effusive praise/thanks/whatever when he sends the half-dead flowers, and won’t accept a normal level of “thank you” for them, and that, to me, feels like he’s just setting you up to fail over and over again, and, to me, makes your frustration more justified. It’d be like if he started every morning making you tea with milk, but you prefer lemon, and you told him you prefer lemon, but he keeps making you tea with milk and expecting praise. The fact that he’s not listening to you and gets pouty when not “properly” praised tells me he’s sending you flowers for *his* benefit, not yours, and I can certainly understand why that’s frustrating. Personally, I’d ask one more time, point blank, why he won’t use the Good Florist, and, depending on the answer, would either institute a moratorium on flowers or just start answering him very, very honestly when the bouquets of half-dead flowers arrive.

       1. I am also confused by the refusal to use Good Florist – maybe the request was framed poorly?

          But I feel like a lot of the brat comments are stemming from jealousy – wishing the posters’ SO’s would buy them flowers, any flowers. I don’t see why any person, male or female, should have to repeatedly be grateful for something they’ve expressed a dislike for. To put it in crude, gendered metaphor, if a wife bought her husband tickets to a game of Football Team A, which are his team’s rivals, and he expressed thanks but said he’d prefer tickets to watch Football Team B, and she continued to buy him tickets to Football Team A, he shouldn’t have to be repeatedly grateful.

          After a certain point, he’s not poorly communicating his feelings, he’s just being stubborn and self-centered.

          1. Hahahahaha. Nah. I’m not jealous. I don’t think he sounds like a peach but she is clearly a brat.

             1. It’s okay to admit to being jealous, you know. It’s also okay to consider that someone else may perceive a situation differently from you, and that doesn’t make them a brat or a princess or a jerk or whatever other insults you’ve used today.

             2. Good grief, Wow 2. You’re exceedingly irritating.

       2. Yes, I really don’t know how to respond to the prodding. I get the flowers and said thank you, I love you, and send him a picture of the arrangement. But that’s not enough. He continues to ask me about the quality. I try to deflect with things like, “It’s really colorful,” or “There are a lot of blooms,” or “It’s really full from all sides so I can enjoy it from all angles,” or even “The vase is really pretty, I know I’ll use it again” (if I have nothing good to say), but none of that is good enough. Sometimes he’ll directly ask if there were dead or wilted flowers this time, so of course I’m not going to lie. And then he gets upset. But the next special occasion rolls around and he continues to use someone other than Good Florist. It’s really baffling.

          1. Yikes…that’s super obnoxious on his part. It sounds like a weird power struggle. Do you have good enough communication as a couple that you’d feel comfortable raising this issue at a totally unrelated time and asking him what’s going on with him, emotionally, during this process?

       3. I like this. Not sure why husband needles her further when she says thank you, I love you. And also, I get the it’s our money stop wasting it on lower-quality goods. A nice bouquet can cost upwards of $100, and in my mind if it’s not well done it is a waste of money. In any case, the whole scenario seems like it’s only a snapshot of a marriage, but I hope that it’s not indicative of the entire relationship.

       4. I agree with this too. If your question hadn’t included the stuff about him prodding you for praise beyond a thank you, I might agree that it was just your issue. But I don’t think it’s fair to yell at you that you should be grateful to receive a gift that you’ve repeatedly said you don’t like very much. That’s odd and there is a real communication issue in his refusal to hear what you’re saying. OP, is this behavior unique to this one issue of the flowers?

          Honestly, if I were your husband, I’d probably be annoyed that you were picky about flowers I’d sent you, and wouldn’t react all that well to the criticism. But that still doesn’t mean I’d just ignore it and keep sending the same dead flowers after multiple conversations – that’s the part that’s weird. Maybe just tell him that you know this is coming from a place of love for him, but you just need him to accept that you’re picky and weird about flowers, and that you’d rather just not get them anymore. And if he doesn’t drop it, then something really weird is going on.

       5. I agree.
          I think his behavior in that regard is much more to worry over than the flowers themselves

   15. Step 1. Take pictures of flowers with all wilted ones turned to camera.
       Step 2. Send picture to husband with gushing thanks for the beautiful gift.
       Step 3. Turn wilted ones to wall and/or throw them away and be happy he isn’t getting you ugly jewelry or something more expensive.

       I agree it sounds passive aggressive but ultimately it wouldn’t be my hill to die on.

       1. This might be an answer. To the OP, you’re simultaneously showing him the wilted flowers and gushing about them. If nothing else, it might confuse him into changing this pattern.

       2. I like this too or suggest that he just pick up grocery store/Costco flowers for you next time. Or ask for chocolates or some other food basket or baked good item that you can share with your colleagues. I agree with commenters above that maybe there’s something about Good Florist that he doesn’t like. I might be concerned about passive- aggressive behavior if there are other ways that he does this.

   16. You’re getting a ton of rude comments, and that sucks. I’ve never been sent flowers, and if I ever date a guy who does send me flowers I think I’d be over the moon and stick with him for as long as I can. I might say “thank you so much, they were lovely!” and overlook the dead flowers. At first, anyway.

       Are we talking, like, dead dead here? Completely brown and dry? Or just a few wilted, less than fresh flowers? I could see how I might get annoyed if I kept getting arrangements where half of the flowers were completely dead (what self-respecting florist would put out a product like that?) and I might subtly try to steer him in the direction of the Good Florist, emphasizing that I’m especially fond of their work, but without complaining about the dead flowers I am getting.

   17. To be honest, it sounds like a control thing.

   18. I don’t get flowers. I’d rather have chocolate or wine or both so I guess my vote is not a princess but only because I am comparing it to what I would want. If H had a company deliver cadbury eggs and white zinfandel, after this long together and knowing I really do not like those things, I would start to feel beyond. It’s like get me something I really like or not? You know?

       Online ordering also could be a thing. I am with those that would rather die than call. Frankly phone customer service is getting worse and worse. I called to make a reservation at a restaurant (mostly because I wasn’t convinced they were still open) and the person told me to go online and make the reservation next time. And I wasn’t even mad. I just thought yeah…I will. I will…

   19. I’ve been in this situation and I understand where you are coming from. I don’t know how to help because I handled it badly and hurt my husband’s feelings. He would buy me the fluorescent flowers from the grocery store regularly and, frankly, they aren’t my style. The first few times I was happy just to get flowers but then it got to be so often I expressed my preference for nicer less frequent arrangements and he thought I was ungrateful.

       I don’t think you are being bratty. He’s buying you something you don’t want.

       Have you tried calling the company to complain about the quality? Become a thorn in their side so they always send you a fresh arrangement!

10. Kat, I just checked out the mobile site for the first time since it was redone, and it looks great! I do wish that links to “Next/Previous post” were also at the bottom of the comments (currently just at the top). It would also be nice to be able to collapse comments.

    1. +1 for the links at the end of the comments!

11. My dad prefers consumables as gifts and is a vegetarian and not into booze or sweets. I’ve already given the usual suspects (fancy olive oil etc.) for the holidays. Any ideas of a fun healthy vegetarian food delivery for his birthday? Thanks!

    1. Edible Arrangement? Some people think they’re tacky, but I LOVE them.

    2. Fancy pancake mix with special maple syrup – always a fan favorite in our house.

    3. Fancy cheeses? Harry & David pears?

    4. Fancy fruit – maybe the fruit of the month club (is that still a thing?) or Harry and David pears (although not sure if it’s the right season).

    5. A subscription service like Graze?

    6. Does he cook? I like gifting Penzey’s Spices or unique spice blends.

       1. +1 to Penzeys, even for non-cooks who just enjoy food

    7. I’m a long-time vegetarian, and just found something new — Sam’s Harvest Jerky #19. It’s really good, but a little pricey, so would be a nice gift. It’s cheaper online than at my local veg foods store. Butler Foods online has the best price right now for a box of 4.

    8. Mouth dot com has all kinds of fancy snacks in gift bags, or you can create your own from their selection, and they allow you to filter on vegetarian/vegan/gluten-free/etc. Every gift I’ve sent from them has been very well-received.

    9. If he enjoys cooking, a week of Purple Carrot meals? I’ve found them to be good quality.

       1. Blue Apron also has a vegetarian option.

    10. Depending on how much you want to spend, you might be able to find some fun and crazy stuff at Zingerman’s. You could probably even give them a call and just say you want to put something together for your dad and they’d have good suggestions. It’s not cheap, but it’s absolutely my favorite place to send food gifts (or…buy some for myself).

    11. What about those Blue Apron type deals? Or does he have a local service that delivers weekly vegetables or anything? Organic?

    12. If there is a fancy grocery or deli in his town you may have luck calling and having them put something together for him. Every time I’ve done this it’s been a huge hit

    13. A CSA subscription + tour of the farm?

12. So a lot of you weighed in last week about the Dallas (indian) doctor who was miffed that I wasn’t available to speak at 5 pm on a weeknight or at lunch time.

    Given the advice here and my own feeling that he’s looking for an Indian arranged marriage tomorrow, I didn’t reach out. So he calls me Sunday night and goes on a bit about how will I get time to get to know someone bc I’m SOOO busy. Uh – I’m not SOOO busy, I’m normal lawyer busy and just not available to wait by the phone for him. Turns out dude wants to FaceTime 3 times and week to get to know me for a week or two and then fly up to DC to meet me. As he thinks it’s a “waste” of time to get to know someone over 6 or 9 months and then have it not work out bc as he was sure to point out — we’re not getting any younger and as a doctor he knows it gets harder to have babies later. Uh – first time we speak and we’re already making babies??

    I know this how it works if you do the semi-arranged marriage. Maybe I’m too “American” but this seems mail order bride-ish to me. Maybe I won’t ever get married, but to me getting to know a forever life partner for 6 months doesn’t seem like too much; and putting a ring on it by Feb/mar is just not for me. Gut feeling confirmed . . . .

    1. Meant – 3 times per week.

    2. That’s just…creepy. i definitely think your gut feeling is right. Run far far away.

    3. I mean, this actually sounds like exactly how my Indian friends doing semi arranged marriages do things. So yeah, not for you!

    4. Your feelings are your feelings. What he is suggesting sounds in step with traditional Indian community arranged marriages get-to-know-you timeline. It always seemed fast in my mind, but seems typical. I know several Indian-American men who flew back to India and within a similar condensed period of time found their wife.

       It’s completely fine if it doesn’t work for you. Nip it in the bud now though, as you clearly know what his expectations are.

       I have to say that my Indian friends with arranged marriages have some lovely spouses. But they are all my male Indian friends who are all doctors/tech types who married wives from India who stay at home. I don’t have a single female Indian-American friend who married via arranged Indian tradition EXCEPT ONE….. who married to please her father who was critically ill and wanted to see her married before he died. So she lost it and married the man to please her father… Yikes….

       1. I think the “expectations” of a typical young woman in India who is looking to meet and marry an Indian-Am man and come to the U.S. with him and be a stay home wife are different than an Indian-Am born and raised here (which I assume OP is) who is an attorney, likely has her own friends, family etc. Someone who is 2nd gen like that was raised here and while they may not be looking to full on date for 2 yrs, they may still want more of an “American” type of “relationship” of getting to know someone for a few MONTHS, not weeks before committing.

          I think the homeland expectations are more based on – profession; family status/expectation; faith; and a general compatibility even if you don’t really KNOW each other — bc how well can a man get to know a woman when he takes 2 weeks vacation time to go meet 3 girls in India, visit their homes a few times, and get engaged at the end of that trip?

       2. Totally agree. There’s no wrong way or right way to get married. Just live your life.

          Plus, this guy sounds REALLY annoying. Could you imagine being married to someone like that? Shudder.

          1. It’s not even just the arrangement or speed – but the fact that he’s straight out demanding 3 face times a week and setting in place HIS timelines while chiding her for being busy. What other demands will there be later – she can’t travel for work? Or she can’t work after kids bc it inconveniences him?? I am Indian but even to me all this sounds a bit . . . Controlling . . . Right off the bat.

             1. Another Indian who totally agrees with this. His tone and his expectation that he can set the rules are off-putting. I’d move on. And I say this as someone who was theoretically totally down with the idea of a semi-arranged marriage in a short time-frame (it remained theoretical because a supposed fling with an opposite-of-me-in-every-way white colleague turned into love/marriage/baby – c’est la vie!).

    5. I was born in India, but moved to the U.S when I was around 3 years old. I’m definitely used to the “American” style of dating.

       I would definitely not be attracted to a guy like this. Sounds like he just wants to get married because you seem like a good “match”. What Anon said above about general compatability without knowing each other is spot on.

       Growing up in the U.S. I’m definitely not used to the Indian style of semi-arranged marriages.

    6. my parents in the 70s met at a Jewish singles event and got married 6 months later. They were in the same city and it was more organic, though, obviously, not arranged in any way. They’re still married and surprise me by how much they like each other.

       I swear one time my mom said they had to get married because in those days you couldn’t just move in together, but now she denies that.

       I think you’re making a good choice!

    7. I have a friend who is extremely active in the online and Tinder-dating spheres. She’s had multiple people come on strong like this, definitely not just Indian. (She has middle eastern roots, but it’s been guys of many backgrounds.)

    8. That guy sounds like a dud, BUT, I wouldn’t rule out family arrangements totally because it could work.

       examples:

       1. my aunt and my uncle were put in touch because dad’s friend’s friend was looking and my mom’s younger sister was of marriageable age but had been too busy being a dentist. they were pen pals for a few months (1980s, he lived in the US and she lived in Korea), and then once they liked correspondence, they went on a date in Seoul. with their parents. over the course of 8 weeks or so, they like continued to date and then decided to get married and she moved to the US. They are happily still married 30 years later.

       2. law school colleague was working biglaw, her parents sent on her eligible dude dates and while she only agreed to the first date with her now husband to appease the parents, there must have been some attraction because they kept going on dates and then decided to get married a few months later. it’s like the couple in The Namesake come to life.

    9. “Yeah, you are right I am not getting any younger, cannot waste more time on you”

       1. +1 , I like this!

       2. “Oh thank you doctor. I did not realize age affected ability to have children.”

    10. Another huge question also is your willingness to relocate, would you? Could you?

    11. Dude, even arranged marriages in India aren’t like this now. Run!

    12. This response is late, but I wanted to weigh in. I agree with all others on the controlling behavior and advise you to run. Amusingly, my parents had pushed me to meet this guy or that guy they set me up with after just a few weeks (or even before they wanted us to email, sometimes), but then objected to my engagement to my now DH after we’d been communicating and dating for nearly a year. So inconsistencies in the arranged marriage community are par for the course, and Indian male doctors of my acquaintance think they are God’s gift to women and we must place them on pedestals. Blech.

        1. Sorry that was me.

13. I am in an odd position where my friend’s boyfriend has asked me to help him with designing her engagement ring. They both live 10 hours away, so although I’ve met him, I don’t know him super well. He originally picked a .4 carat pink/orange diamond, but then backtracked and is considering a traditional diamond. On her pinterest, she had a couple of rings pinned with colored stones, but most were overwhelmingly white diamonds. Should I steer him towards white diamonds? Would it be weird to suggest Moissanite? I don’t /think/ my friend would care if any of the stones were fake, but I am also not 100% sure. Has anyone had bad experiences with Moissanite?

    1. Try to suss out your friend a bit but I would definitely be inclined to say keep it traditional with white diamond not coloured diamonds or Moissanite. Unless they’ve expressly discussed Moissanite I think it would make for an awkward proposal if she’s excited about a huge ring and he has to be like, ‘actually it’s fake’.

    2. People here love Moissanite but I think that’s a very personal question and you’d have to know how your friend feels. If she is expecting/wants a diamond and he proposes with a Moissanite that could go badly. I think both Moissanites and diamonds, and anything else, is a totally valid choice, but they are different and I’ be very wary of suggesting a non-diamond if you don’t know what your friend wants.

    3. I think this is where you are supposed to have a hypothetical conversation with your friend about the kinds of engagement rings she likes! And if she doesn’t say she would like a colored stone don’t suggest it. I also wouldn’t recommend Moissanite. I think it looks fake and cheap and unless you do /know/ that she would like it you’re setting him up poorly.

       1. +1

       2. +2 I’m not sure why Moissanite is so praised here. A lot of people can tell it’s fake and many people (myself included) would rather have a small diamond or an obviously non-diamond stone rather than a fake diamond (just like I’d rather have a less expensive, but authentic, Coach purse than a fake Louis Vuitton).

          1. Different strokes for different folks.

    4. Please just ask her. This is a big expense, and it’s worth making her a little bit suspicious in order for her to have a ring that she likes.

    5. Can you send him the images she pinned? I would not steer him towards Moissanite unless friend has specifically told you that she would not care.

    6. Do you have good relationships with her mother or other close friends who live near her?

       When things started getting semi-serious with my last SO, my mother grilled me on what I wanted in an e-ring. Jumpin the gun a little bit there, Ma, but hey, now she knows what I want. I’ve also been very clear on what I want to my close friends, just in case.

       I’m guessing because he asked you (which I personally think is a pro move on his part!) he wants the ring to be a surprise, so he probably doesn’t want to ask her directly. But if you ask her and anyone else who might know, and she gets a little suspicious, it’s ok, her boyfriend still gets his surprise, and she’ll get what she wants. Colored stones/Moissanite are way riskier than traditional clear diamonds.

    7. Yes, you need to talk to her. If he wants to keep it a surprise, try to bring it up naturally in a ‘fun’ conversation. She may not update her pinterest board regularly or may not have thought too seriously about it when she pinned. I’d do something like this next time you are chatting. Friend: “what’s up?” “Oh, I’m watching Say Yes to the Dress and looking online at engagement rings for ‘someday’ haha, what are you up to?” or “oh, I am talking to Other Friend about what she wants for an engagement ring and she’s debating between two styles” Friend will then say something about that and you can naturally say “Other Friend likes colored stones, and I say go for it! What do you think? Do you like them?” or “I found some beauties online and am daydreaming. What about you, have you thought about rings with Boyfriend?” Then steer the conversation towards something totally different.

    8. Do not suggest moissanite unless you 100% know she wants it.

14. Is there any way to tell a co-worker I can hear their constant texting due to the keyboard sound? Keyboard sounds are a pet peeve of mine anyway (turn it off!), not to mention the fact that we are at work and the amount of texting is excessive. Said co-worker is not in my department and doesn’t report to me.

    1. Sure, just say “hey, do you mind turning off the keypad noise on your cell? It’s really distracting”. Just be straightforward about it and don’t make it about excessive texting.

    2. Seriously. What is the advantage of this noise?

       1. For people with vision problems, for one

15. Does anyone use a wardrobe organizing app? I’m considering trying one for an upcoming trip to make sure what I’m packing works well together.

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