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Wednesday’s Workwear Report: Skyline High-Rise Barrel-Leg Pant

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A woman (torso not visible) wearing a white top, navy barrel pants, and white sneakers

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

‘Tis the season for athleisure as far as the eye can see. I popped into a local brick-and-mortar Athleta this past weekend and it was packed, especially compared to the rest of the mall. I’ve always been a big fan of their pants for travel days or those out-of-office team-building events where you don’t need to be dressed up, but you still want to look like you’ve got it together.

These barrel-leg pants are lightweight and comfy but still have a tailored feel. They come in regular, tall, and petite inseams for a great fit for everyone. 

The pants are $129 full price at Athleta and come in sizes 0-16, 0T-16T, and 0P-14P. They’re available in black, bright white, navy, “olive branch,” and — on sale for $64.99 — “aspen olive.”

For plus sizes, though a touch more casual, Athleta has these high-rise pants that are available in 1X-3X in several colors for $109-$119. (Sadly, the sale colors are sold out in 1X-3X.)

Sales of note for 2/6:

273 Comments

  1. I bought these exact pants yesterday, and I’m delighted with them! I am 5’4, 145, with thick thighs and a small waist. Finding pants that fit and flatter me is a huge challenge. I never thought barrel pants would be for me! The 6R fit perfectly, and I felt cute in pants for the first time in forever. They hit right above my ankle bone. Reviews say the waist is small. They have a little stretch but don’t feel like they’ll get baggy. I’m considering getting them in every color. Wish they were on sale.

    I also tried on some pull-on barrel pants at Target that I might have loved in the right size. They are sold out everywhere in size small. Depending on fit, I wear a small or medium, and these were way too big in the medium. Worth a shot for $35 if they have your size.

    1. Bodies are so, so weird. I’m also 5’4 (almost 5’5 on a good day); 136 pounds, and need a 10 or large in pants – lots of junk in the trunk. Makes finding pants that actually fit nearly impossible. I would try these except for the length – I want pants to hit the top of my foot, not stop at the ankle.

        1. Yes I’m the same height and I always buy Tall because my legs are long and I want it to get to my ankle.

        2. Well duh! It did not even occur to me they would offer different lengths. Ordering the tall now – thank you!

      3. Sizes are SO weird. Im 5’4″, 160 lbs, and depending on the brand anywhere from an 8 to a 12.

        1. I have two pairs of jeans from the same brand that I bought in store on the same day that are two different sizes, and they both fit perfectly. And this is why I hate shopping for pants.

    2. Huh, I am basically your exact size and shape; think barrel pants always look silly on the models so I haven’t tried them, but you’re talking me into it!

    3. I also have these pants and think they are great! Honestly I had to double check because they don’t look very flattering on the pictures. But on me they have a slight trendy-feeling barrel that isn’t overly exaggerated, hits at my ankle bones, also travels and wears really well and doesn’t wrinkle at all. Agree that they are on the tighter side on the waist but have a bit of stretch. I’m 5’2 (barely) and got the 2P.

  2. Help me shop? What would you wear to a couple of evening receptions during a conference for lawyers in Nashville in the spring? At a similar conference, the evening vibe ranged from work wear to bright cocktail dresses with feather trim. I’m short, apple-shaped, size 12-ish. I have terrible, wide feet and need a comfy shoe. Budget is around $200 for a new outfit, but I would go higher for something that I thought I would get a lot of wear out of. I’m job searching, so I want to be memorable but in a dignified way. Oh, and I will also be attempting to do this trip with a carry-on.

    2. what else are you wearing — what else will be in your suitcase? i would say something like

      – festive top + regular blazer or sweater jacket for one night
      – festive blazer + plain top for another night — jacquard or the like. if it’s cold enough i’d still go with a non-red velvet but that’s me.

    3. Wide black pants with comfortable flat black shoes. Whatever lovely top/jackety topper combo you can squeeze into your carryon and shake free of any wrinkles. Dignified but rich-looking earrings and a statement necklace. Keep the attention up top and around your face, and nobody will notice the plain lower extremities. Enjoy!

    4. I would wear a column of colour with a memorable topper (blazer, vest, cardigan). For me this would be navy or black pants and a shell with a great blazer in a colour that makes my eyes pop. I would pick pants so shoes can be comfy but YMMV. If you already have basic bottoms and a shell, you could invest in the topper for something that you love.

    5. To me this is a great time for a Chanel-style lady blazer in a tweed or boucle with maybe a bit of metallic threaded through. Pair with black pants and kitten heels, and then for the reception put on an earring with some sparkle.

    6. Thank you all for the suggestions! I am definitely feeling more inspired!

    7. Talbots has a few ponte shealth dresses that would be perfect, possibly with tights or dark nylons and nice ballet flats. I’d start there in the petite section.

    8. I’m late to the party, but I agree with those who recommended focusing the evening attire up top and around your face. If you are tight on space in your carry-on, focus on statement jewelry or button toppers for a cardigan or button-front. If you have the space, go for a bright or evening festive topper, blazer, or lady jacket for one evening and a more festive blouse or shell (silk, velvet, or bright color/pattern) for the other evening.

  3. I have some high waisted cotton skirts that would fit well if they were half an inch less high-waisted. So if I zip it until half an inch from the top they fit perfectly. If I zip it all the way it zips but is too high on my stomach and eventually becomes uncomfortable.

    Would it work to alter skirts like this to just be a little less high waisted? I run into this issue a lot where the pants/skirts would fit great IF they were just a little less high waisted.

    1. Do they have a set-in waistband? If so, how wide is the waistband? Is the skirt pleated or gathered to the waistband? Does the zipper go all the way through the top of the waistband, or does it stop where the skirt attaches to the waistband and then the band closes with a button or other fastener?

      All these questions would affect how much work this alteration would take, and therefore, the price.

      1. No set in waistband. Not pleated. Zipper does go all the way to the top.

        The “why not just get a larger size” – I used to do that but then its way too big around my legs and literally anywhere lower than the waist. Too large on hips, thighs etc. So I’m trying to find something that fits all the way through.

        1. It seems like this style isn’t for you. (Are these narrow pencil skirts?) Ask a tailor if they can cut the top and insert a shorter zipper, however it still might not fit the way you want it to.

        2. How wide are the seam allowances and how many side seams exist? A tailor could possibly let them out to widen the waist if there is enough fabric.

    3. We are in a bad era for this, unfortunately. Not an expert, but I don’t think an alteration like this is possible unless you totally reconstruct the pants. I agree with you that sizing up usually doesn’t work because then it’s huge and sloppy elsewhere.

      1. Yeah I think this is just the problem. Having high waisted stuff is fine, but when something is sold as mid rise it should be mid rise!

    4. For skirts, this is a doable alteration! Zippers can be shortened (from the top at least). Take it to your tailor and good luck.

      Pants, you’re probably better off just looking for mid rise.

      1. Makes sense. I was thinking that there was at least a chance this could work on a skirt.

    5. I’ve noticed that right now, many zipped skirts are high waisted, and they fit me the same way you described. I wanted to chime in that my favourite item to sew is a zippered skirt for this reason, as I can make it sit lower on my hips while adjusting the sides. I dislike altering skirts, and prefer making them from scratch, but obviously, this only works if you like sewing!

      If you purchased a larger size, the skirt could potentially be taken in from the sides, so it could sit lower on the hips. This alteration may be possible with some styles, or not be worth it, depending on the shape, fabric, lining, etc.

      1. Where do you buy fabric and notions for apparel sewing now that Joann is gone and Fabric.com has been taken over by Amazon? My only local fabric store deals exclusively in quilting fabric.

        1. Not the OP. I lurk on Threadloop and check out online vendors based on suggestions and sources mentioned there.

        2. I am fortunate there are some great options for apparel fabric (I’m in Canada), and I have found some lovely material for skirts. I’m near Vancouver, and there is a wonderful huge store in Coquitlam (suburb) that is family owned and has so much great apparel fabric from Italy, Spain, Japan… Also, there is an online store called Blackbird fabrics, but I have viewed, but not purchased.

  4. I’m 37 and finally decided to try out a retinol/wrinkle cream. I chose Kiehl’s (“super multi-corrective cream”) because I already use their regular moisturizer. However, it made my face all red and irritated for 2 days after. Is there a more entry-level cream I should start with? Is there a special way to apply? Other tips? Thank you!

    1. I liked MyChelle’s “Remarkable Retinal” as an entry level option. I’m not sure I see the benefit of retinol over retinaldehyde if the latter is both more potent and gentler to skin.

    3. CeraVe has a retinol product that is very gentle – CeraVe Resurfacing Retinol Serum (white & teal bottle). Also make sure your face is completely dry before you apply it, I usually wait ~5mins after washing my face to apply.

      1. I also have sensitive skin and this one wins all the awards. My skin loves it. Highly recommend. It’s about $20.

    4. I bought one from Cosrx that’s labeled The Retinol 0.1 Cream and is specifically marketed as a gentle option for beginners. My skin is pretty sensitive and reactive, and yet I haven’t had any problems with this one. I use it every other night.

    5. I wouldn’t bother with OTC retinol – if you’re going to do it go see your derm and get trentinoin. s/he can help you get started with it; one tip I got was to mix it with Cerave PM lotion. I have pretty easy skin though so adapted pretty quickly.

    6. My derm said tretanoin too, but it can be very irritating to skin so she recommended its lower concentration cousin-adapalene. I bought the La Roche Posay version from CVS per her recommendation-no prescription needed. I’m only on day 3 or 4 though, but I have used it every day without difficulty.

    7. Separate from a particular brand rec, the bottle should say the % retinoin – all else equal (ie no irritating fragrances or other inactive ingredients your skin doesn’t like), a lower % is what to look for for a less irritating, “entry level” cream, and then go up from there if you’re not seeing the results you want. OTC creams range from ~0.1% to 1% – I like 0.3%

      Also I’m sure you know this, but sunscreen is key with retinoids

    8. Adapalene (differin) has been amazing for my sensitive skin. It’s $10 OTC at Target or wherever. Every time I restart retinoids after pregnancy or an allergy flareup, I start there. After about 2 months of daily application I can tolerate .025 tret twice a week and can build from there. You really just need to check the % active ingredient in your tret creams and start low.

    9. My derm suggested starting every other day or even every two days if you’re sensitive. She didn’t recommend I use trentinoin at all. Some people also use differin as an otc option.

    10. I was early in my law career and pregnant when I got married. I changed my name partially because I liked the idea of being a unit with my husband and child and partially because I have an ethnic hard to pronounce and spell last name. Sometimes I regret not having my dad’s name because it is so rare and interesting but now that I am in private practice I see the value of an easy to remember and easy to google last name. If I had it to do over, I would have hyphenated legally but just used my husband’s name in daily life.

  5. Went down a youtube rabbit hole last night after hearing about exosomes (Plated Intense Serum) and growth factors (SkinMedica TNS Advanced Serum) for skin care. Looking for real life experiences with either product as there is a whole lot of influencing going on in YT, and it’s hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. I can make the investment in either product, especially if it works. I’m 60+, skin in okay shape but uninspired- looking for help with some redness, dryness, and clarity. I see other women my age whose skin looks (sorry for the cliche) lit from within, and mine is dull by contrast. Looking specifically for experiences with either of these products from the skin goddesses here.

    1. What else is in your skincare regime? I would personally suggest focusing on a retinol, vitamin C, and niacinimide for dullness/redness before exosomes. Honestly if you have the budget ($500 ish in my HCOL area) a dermatologist visit will make a much more immediate impact – clear and brilliant, IPL, or even microneedling will help.

    2. I’d check in with a dermatologist or try a different basic moisturizer before believing any influencer stuff, which is typically paid marketing. There are a lot of products with a lot of marketing, but most don’t have strong studies supporting that they’re both safe and effective for the consumer. They’re very effective in lining the pockets of the companies that sell them, though.

      Last I checked, the products dermatologists recommend are tretinoin and sunscreen, with a basic moisturizer if you need it.

    3. I agree you should consult a dermatologist. But I’ll say that for dullness, vitamin C serum will help, as will an AHA product. Use as directed— some are meant to be used daily and some only a couple times a week.

    4. There’s no chance this is anything but snake oil (biologist here).

      Exosomes would be too large to get through the skin’s barrier. Exosomes are small lipid vesicles which have proteins and RNA inside them. The RNAs can change how cells behave pretty dramatically, but even if you were able to get this through the stratum corneum, would you want random RNAs in your skin cells?

      Growth factors are also probably too large and too charged to get through the skin, though this depends on the growth factor. The growth factors we have in my lab are stored at -80C because they’re typically not very stable at room temperature- there’s no way that a skin cream would have any proteinaceous growth factors that would have any biological function.

    5. My derm said I could add the tns but also a chemical peel would be the most effective option. I didn’t personally want to spend the $90 for it either.

    6. If you are still reading, sorry for the late reply. I have been on plated for 6 months and it has made the most substantial impact on my skin. I get regular facials and have for 6 years. I am 46 years old. Plated is worth every single penny. You only need one pump. The key it is to put it on and then let it sink in (2-5 minutes) before you do your next step. I literally get compliments every day on my skin thanks to plated. Worth the investment.

  6. For those who are married and did not change their last name to their spouse’s name, what influenced your decision? Has anyone changed it many years after getting married?

    Got married in 2019 right before COVID and put it off for COVID reasons initially and then life got busy, it went on the back burner. Now my passport renewal is coming up and this would be a good opportunity to change it. We do not have kids and probably will not. The vast majority of our friends took the traditional route where the wife changed her last name immediately, so I feel out of place when my legal name comes up for reasons. People assume that I changed my last name.

    1. I did not initially change it because it would have been a hassle at the time. I planned on changing it at my next passport renewal, but my state is being weird about voter ID and name changes, so I’m hesitating now! I do let people assume what my last name is socially because I don’t care.

    2. I never had any desire to change mine, and my husband had no desire to change his either. It has never caused any problems for either of us or our kids. My mom didn’t change her name when she got married, but changed it when I was a kid, and then changed it back again when she got divorced. I feel like it’s a bit of a lifehack not to change it in the first place and avoid all the administrative hassle!

    3. Why would I change my name? It’s been my name all my life and I’m not suddenly becoming a new person just because I got married. It was never even a question for me.

      If people are making incorrect assumptions about your name, that’s on them. What is it, 1950? When it matters, you can politely correct them, when it doesn’t, you can let it slide.

      1. For me it’s partly that it’s really my dad’s name, and he is not part of my life in any way since he left. If my last name were my mom’s it might feel like a real family name to me, since my mom and her family are part of my life!

          1. My stepbrother changed his last name away from the one his abandoning dad gave him.

          2. My mom kept my dad’s name after they divorced, so this is not really feasible for me. (Different poster, similar situation.)

        2. I get that, as I also have a crappy dad. But my name doesn’t feel like my dad’s name to me; it feels like my name. It connects me to all the past versions of myself who existed in the world using this name more than to him or anyone else in the family. Reasonable minds can certainly differ on this though.

        3. This argument has never made the slightest bit of sense to me. My name is MY name. It’s the only name I’ve ever had. Yes, my dad has the same last name, but so do a ton of other people and I don’t particularly attach any family identity to having the same name as him (and not the same name as my mom), just to the identity I’ve built as myself over time. I see no reason to change that just because I got married.

          1. I think it’s partly that his family was almost like a club or a cult? It never once felt like my name; it always felt like a burden of expectations and family image that we were expected to live up to and maintain. We literally had hats and t-shirts from the family reunions with the family name on it.

          3. You can have family identity without having the same name! My point was that I don’t have more identity with my dad’s family than with my mom’s, just because we share a name (along with a bunch of other unrelated randos who also happen to have that name).

          4. It doesn’t need to make sense to you because it’s not an argument, it’s someone’s personal feelings and thoughts and decisions made based on those. Names and families are so personal, and everyone has different ideas and feelings about their name, what their name means to them, their family, and the intersection of all of those things. I don’t think it’s fair to describe what that poster said as an “argument,” as if she’s advancing one right way to think about it. I like my last name and won’t change it when I get married, but I very much associate it with my extended family on my paternal side and part of the reason I want to keep it is because my identity feels very rooted in that family. I feel entirely the opposite about my maternal extended family.

    4. I have been married 10 years and did not change my name. I’ve never had an issue with it or a desire to change my name since. I was already established in my field when I got married, and my mother was also a well-known practitioner so it makes me feel good when people see my name and ask if I’m related to her. Our kids have my husband’s name and that’s never been an issue either. I don’t mind when we’re called the HLast Family informally.

      1. +1 Basically this is me as well. That being said, I don’t know if having the same name would make travel together easier in any way.

        1. I have a different last name than my husband and daughter and it’s never been an issue when traveling, domestically or internationally. Outside of the US, there are so many different naming conventions that I don’t think anyone has really expected us to have the same last name, necessarily. My daughter is only 2 but so far I can’t think of any situation where it’s even come up that we have different last names… I’ve heard it’s less of an issue now, but my husband had a different last name than his mom in the 80s and said it was never and issue for him, either.

        3. I’ve been married forever with a different last name and have never once had an issue with travel or hospitals for that matter.

    5. I did end up changing my name right after I got married (because I genuinely like my husband’s last name), but it is a HASSLE. In your case, I honestly would not bother at this point.

      1. I just got married in September and I am in the process of changing my name and it is already such a hassle, and I do want to do it! I”m a Millennial, fed in DC, not particularly religious Catholic and my peers who have gotten married in the past 5 years are about 50-50 on changing/keeping maiden name.

    6. I’m surprised you’re finding it so uncommon. I changed my name but ~75% of my friends and acquaintances did not. I guess it’s regional and cultural.

      1. +1

        Same in my circles. Echoing a commenter above, I never really even thought of changing it. Children have both our names. It hasn’t been an issue in our 20 years of marriage.

      2. I don’t know, I read a surprising stat that it’s still very uncommon not to and when I look at my professional circles in a big blue city, it is still pretty uncommon. I’d say 80% of my peers changed theirs.

        1. I’m surprised by this, too! I kept my last name and have been an outlier among peer groups in multiple goes in the US. The only exception was when we lived in a college town; there, no women in my friend circle had the same last name as their husbands. I live in NoVA now, and although all my female friends are full time working professionals, I’m the only person I know with a different last name than husband.

      3. Same! I changed my name because my maiden name was a clunker, but I literally only know one other woman in our social circles who changed her name. I get a bit self-conscious about it TBH.

    7. I did not. I am fairly well known personally and professionally by my last name, and also got married after we’d been together over a decade. I also like my name more than my husband’s last name. No regrets. In our circle, changing your name happens more often than not, but by no means a given. I will say out of my friend group, there are more regrets from those that did change their name and very few from those that did not.

    8. Had a professional license when I got married, along with a house. Didn’t change. Elizabeth Taylor was always my north star on this: just keep your name; it’s much easier that way. If it matters, I’m wife #2, so no desire to step into someone else’s shoes (when he is husband #1 for me).

    9. On the other end, I’ve been married 20+ years and have always sort of low-key regretted changing my name. It feels way too late to wind back that clock now, but I feel like if you didn’t change it at the start, why bother now? It’ll be a huge hassle and it doesn’t sound like you’re that into the idea of changing it.

      1. Funny you say this, I’ve low key regretted not changing mine the longer we’ve been married. I won’t change mine now but seeing how much happier I am now than in the house I grew up in, I wish I’d had that faith in the future.

        1. That’s completely fair, and I see where you’re coming from! It’s so interesting how these things evolve over time. I think my regret (again, it’s not an all-consuming one) comes from knowing that I felt sad about changing my name but definitely did it as a 20-something to keep the peace with the older generations and because it still wasn’t common in my geographic area to keep a last name. Hyphenating would’ve been a mess because of the length of both names.

          Now, we have a really happy, solid marriage and two awesome kids. But recently, I really bristled when DH’s cousin made a comment about me being close to being a Jones longer than I was a Smith. Internally, I was like … no, I’ve never stopped being a Smith. I just became a Jones, too. Wish I’d said that to her, but I’m never good at those snappy comebacks in the moment.

        2. Oh my god, that’s such a perfect way to put it.

          I wish past me could know how great marriage with this dude would be. Happily married for 15 years and considering changing my name to match my spouse and kids.

        3. With all due, this is bs. Men who had unhappy childhoods or aren’t close with their families of origin don’t change their names.

          1. Maybe they should?

            I didn’t invent patriarchal naming conventions, and I can will them away either.

          3. My best friend’s husband actually did exactly that. They were planning to each keep their names, but then he decided that her family is awesome, and his isn’t, and he wanted the same name as her more than he wanted to carry the family name of his parents.

          4. My best friend’s husband also changed his name. He’s very close to his mom but has a really complicated relationship with his dad and of course his last name came from dad. So he took my friend’s name and their kids all have her name as well. I agree it’s very unusual but it’s not unheard of!

      2. Same here. Changing to his last name was very much the thing in my social circle when I got married more than two decades ago and I regret having done that now. I love him dearly and he would be supportive if I really wanted to change it back, but I think he would be low-key hurt. I don’t really want to open that can of worm, and changing it would be a bureaucratic annoyance that I don’t want to deal with at this stage.

        Not to get too morbid, but knowing that I am very likely to outlive him, I plan to change it back should that become a reality.

    10. I didn’t change my name either and have no intention of doing so. Same reasons as everyone else said, it’s my name, professional and personal reputation, etc. That said, in some cases I’ll casually use his name where it’s easier. And I’m never offended if I’m called by his name or we get mail addressed to the same name.

      1. +1 we each kept our names.

        I have made it clear everywhere (return addresses, email correspondence, checks, etc) that I am Sally Jones. So, I am annoyed when someone who should know my name addresses us as “The Smiths” when my last name is Jones.

        A card from his colleague whom I’ve never met? That’s fine.

        A card from my blood relative who is also a Jones? Unless they’re super old, I bristle.

        1. +1 Frankly I bristle even if they are super old, but then (some) members of my family were SHOCKED, SHOCKED I wouldn’t change my name

        2. +1 but I get cranky if even olds don’t get my name right, in part because some very traditional fam members made a big deal of me not changing mine.

      2. This is where I come down, too. I didn’t change it, and it’s not created any issues (and would have been a big pain, as I have professional licenses in addition to the usual places you have to change). I’ve not had any problems during travel, either domestic or international.

        I’m not offended when folks that don’t know us well call us the Smiths when I’m Jones. His family and mine address us correctly, and all our close friends do, too. It comes up most often when we’re out to dinner when he’s made the reservations. “Oh, right this way Mr. and Mrs. Smith!”

    11. I already had a name. And I’m not from the US so don’t live in the 1930s.

    12. I have a hyphenated last name and initially intended to go from Emeralds MomsLast-DadsLast to Emeralds MomsLast-HusbandsLast–as others have said, my dad is not great and I didn’t feel the need to keep dragging his name around. But we got married in spring 2019 and I had some international travel in summer and fall 2019 that would have been annoying to deal with a name change and changing my passport. By February 2020 I had the paperwork filled out and sitting on my desk to take in…I think we can all see where that went. So, I’m still Emeralds MomsLast-DadsLast.

      My husband’s extended family all refer to me as Emeralds HusbandsLast. I really don’t care.

    13. I got married over 30 years ago and was already well established in my career. I never once considered changing my name. My husband opted to change his last name to match mine.

    14. I liked my name and wanted to keep it. Never thought about it again. I sometimes use my husband’s name socially (like if people think we’re Mr. and Mrs. Larson I just go with it). It’s fine, nbd.

      If I need to correct or inform someone, I always phrase it as “I kept my name” (vs. a negative “I didn’t change my name” or “I didn’t take his name”.)

      1. To you last point, I like the “not framing it negatively” thing. I usually say “we have different last names” matter of factly and it feels neutral and effective. Because… we do! Continually getting holiday cards to The Hisname Family grates slightly, but I’ll live. We don’t have kids. 15 years of marriage.

        1. I always say “neither of us changed our names when we married.” to drive home the point it shouldn’t just be on women, without saying that explicitly.

    15. I didn’t with my first husband because I knew I’d have to change it back, and I did with my second because I knew I wouldn’t have to.

    16. I’m a xennial, would never change my name. None of my married friends took their partner’s name, but two made a hyphenated new name for both.

      1. This makes me want to both change my name, part my hair on the side and put on some no show socks…..

    17. I didn’t change it because it’s old fashioned. My name is my name, why would I change it?

    18. Been married almost 15 years, kids are 10 and 13. Did not change my name because it’s MY NAME. DH didn’t understand it but he handled it just fine and that’s why I married him. It’s pretty uncommon in our social circles although the vast majority of my male cousins also married women who kept their names, so must have been in the water in my family. I have no regrets.

    19. Got married in 2019, now have a 2 yr-old that does have my husband’s last name. Reasons for my decision: I was in my mid-30s and just felt settled into my name, my husband didn’t care/assumed I would not change it based on my personality/politics, my first name does not sound good with my husband’s last name, and just generally not feeling any need to change it? I didn’t – and still don’t – feel like we’re missing out on family unity by having different last names, and it doesn’t bother me at all that my daughter has a different last name (my last name is kind of goofy so frankly I didn’t feel compelled to pass it on, despite apparently wanting to keep it for myself!). I live in the south and although in my personal social circle it’s common to keep your last name, people do often assume I have changed my last name and that it’s the same as my husband’s, so he will often get referred to as Mr. My-Last-Name, which I find kind of funny.

    20. What part of the country do you live in? I’m surprised so many people you know changed their names. It’s well less than half the people I know who have gotten married in the last 15 years, but I’m in a big east coast

      1. Not OP but while I live in the south now my of my social circle is from or still in the northeast/mid-atlantic and I would agree that very few of them have changed their names. Although now that people have started having kids, it seems like more having started using their husband’s last names in some settings (like a Christmas card from “The Husband’s-Last-Name” family) so I’m starting to lose track.

    21. I didn’t change my name because I’m the most important person to me. I’m not going to lose my identity or sacrifice myself, plus I’m pretty well known professionally. When I was younger I was suuuuuch a pick me and wanted male validation so bad, if I had married younger I definitely would have changed my name.

      1. I changed my name as soon as I got married because my father was a terrible person and I wanted to replace his name with one I had chosen.

        1. Bull. You could have changed your name at anytime. You did the easy expected thing and want to be applauded for it and pretend it wasn’t about doing the easy thing.

          2. Are… are you Anonymous at 10:53’s father? I cannot imagine why you chose to make such a needlessly hostile and mean response. WTF, please take your aggression somewhere else.

          3. That hostility is really weird. Also, not all countries allow you to just change your name on a whim.

          4. Actually it’s a lot more work to change your name at marriage than to keep it.

      2. Also one of the only female peers I have in the industry who is a leader at a different org has had THREE last names in the past 6 years, I really judge her. She’s so bad ass but capitulates to these lemons in her personal life.

          1. I do actually judge other women who participate so willingly in such bs patriarchal traditions.

    22. If you’ve been married 5+ years and don’t feel a strong urge to change it then keep your name. I was very excited to change mine since I’ve never liked my last name. I recently did the paperwork after my wedding…and it feels weird introducing myself differently. Maybe because I got married in my 30s? Even though I don’t publish papers or hold special certifications/advanced degrees it’s a hassle at work, especially with clients. Long term it will be nice having a last name that’s easier to spell and pronounce than my own. But if your only concern is peer pressure then it’s not worth it.

    23. I didn’t change my name because I didn’t want to change my name. It’s been my name my whole life. I have a professional degree in my name. We knew we weren’t having kids. So I literally saw no reason to bother and the paperwork is a hassle. I told my husband he was welcome to take my last name if having the same last name was important to him, but I wasn’t changing mine.

      1. +1. Same — “I didn’t want to.” No specific reason, it’s just…my name. I didn’t feel strongly either way and the paperwork hassle definitely tipped me in the direction of not changing my name.
        My kids have husband’s last name, which is fine with me because again, I didn’t feel strongly one way or another.

    24. Did not change it and never plan to (got married in 2017). Our kids have hyphenated last names. My reasoning was that my husband doesn’t own me, I don’t need to adhere to some weird patriarchal norm. My name is my name. He didn’t consider changing his last name nor would I expect him to. No one has given us a hard time or been confused. It hasn’t caused any logistical issues for us or our kids.

    25. It just reflects me better. I have a Jewish name and Jewish heritage. People feel some kind of way about it and they tell me. Frequently. Better to get that out of the way.

      It just reflects our family better. Honestly, we’re trad presenting. He has a big job and I have yoga pants and an suv. He was ends up on the receiving end of more unwelcome misogynistic backslaps than one might imagine. He is not that guy. Lots of women change their names because they married a guy who is fragile enough to care. I didn’t marry a guy like that. I’m incredibly proud that I didn’t. Not changing my name reflects one of the things I love most about him.

    26. I didn’t change my name mostly because I’ve already started my career and I also had no desire to go from a name that is very easy to spell and pronounce to a name that almost everybody misspells and mispronounces.

      We have kids and it has literally never been an issue. The only time I think anyone official that has given me grief about it was a single customs agent coming back into the United States almost 20 years ago.

      My boomer mother and mother-in-law very much wanted me to change my name, but eventually got over it.

      1. Same here; my husband uses my last name as the family takeout order name because people can’t spell/pronounce his. Kid has his last name but it was never an issue at school or the Drs. If I showed up with a different last name. I also like the anonymity of my entire name — his is very distinct, my first and last is a very common name in the ancestral country and if you were some rando you’d be hard pressed to identify which one I am on some site where they insist on your real name.

      2. Nobody can spell or pronounce my maiden name. My husband’s last name is one syllable that is impossible to get wrong.

    27. I didn’t want to get a new email address, update any paperwork, or have to go to the trouble of informing people of a name change. Maybe it would be different if I was much younger when I got married, but I already had an established career and name recognition. I really don’t care if people socially use my husband’s last name as mine, though I’m not going to ask anyone to do that. Legal name changes seem like pointless hassle to me.

      1. And for what it’s worth, I have kids who have my last name as their middle name and my husband’s last name as their last name. Nobody has ever been confused by this.

        1. this is what we did too, and about 1/3 of my kids’ school classes. seems very common now and everyone understands it.

    28. I don’t have kids. I changed my name but there have been a ton of times I wish I hadn’t. Real ID meant I had to track down a copy of my wedding certificate, which was based in another country and a ginormous hassle to get copies. SO MANY forms that needed to be changed, from stock certificates to voting to social security card. I’m in a creative field and all my past work projects were associated with maiden name. It also hasn’t helped that husband’s last name is often misspelled, so some places there are three of me: married misspelled, maiden, and married correct. and that there is an ex-wife who still uses it that I’m asked about from time to time, with PETCO rewards to other stuff. Not at all worth the hassle. I can’t tell you how many times I wish I could go back in time and just keep my maiden name. I also feel for anyone who might be divorced and want to go back at some point. That’s going to open so many conversations with so many strangers. Folks will often assume it’s marriage when it’s not.

    29. I changed it for marriage #1, got divorced, changed it back, and I’m never changing it again. My second husband gives zero Fs. His mom kept her maiden name and she is a world renowned expert in her field. Our kid has both our last names.

    30. Well, I’d wait to change it until Trump and the current regime is out of office. One bill that is still being considered could make it harder for married women who changed their name to vote. They want to add add a voting requirement that your voting ID matches the name on your birth certificate, with no waiver for married women who have changed their name. Yeah, nice.

        1. I didn’t think this was contested? They just said that the workaround is to show your marriage certificate.

          1. No, they actually did not specify a work around. That was “assumed” and the Congress refused to add that into the bill. The SAVE act is now being used as a template in some states who are putting forth their own versions while Congress is quiet. Watch your state.

            It is not rumor. It is a bill that passed in the House and is stalled in the Senate. It is one of Trump’s many missions that is hovering on the back burner until they are ready to pull it out again.

    31. I didn’t change it this last time because I was in my 50s and had been using this name for years. Every year we get a few Christmas cards addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Hisname, but generally it hasn’t been an issue. My name is my name, and what people may or may not assume is absolutely the very least of my concerns.

      1. Technically “Mr. and Mrs. Hisname” is correct if they are just using his first and last name and leaving your first name off.

        My in-laws have always addressed my birthday card to “Mrs. Husbandsname.” I thought this was just cute and harmless. Then they gave us a fruit of the month club subscription for Christmas despite knowing that their son has been on a keto diet for two years and doesn’t eat fruit. Now I think they are just messing with us.

        1. Uh, how is it correct to address me as “Mrs. Smith” if my name is “Ms. Jones?” Technically, how?

          1. It is correct but archaic to address you as “Mrs. Jim Jones” if you are married to Jim Jones, no matter what your name is. It is not correct, however, to address you as “Mrs. Senior Jones” if your name is Senior Attorney and you are married to Jim Jones. Similarly, “Mr. and Mrs. Jim Jones” would be correct but “Mr. and Mrs. Jim and Senior Jones” would be incorrect.

          2. I think “correct but archiac,” at this point, equals “incorrect.” And I say this as someone who owns a rather extensive collection of old etiquette books and who is well aware of the archaic rules.

    32. If you ever want to start a very long thread on this site, ask about keeping or changing your name when you get married. There is almost never anything people here feel more interested in discussing.

    33. I got married in 1989 and did not change my name. I had no desire at all to do so – both my then-H and I thought the custom was both weird and misogynist.We got divorced after 25 years, and I was glad my name was one thing I didn’t have to deal with.

      We gave our child my last name for a variety of reasons, including that his name is always being misspelled or mispronounced and mine is very simple, that there were kids in his family with his last name but none with mine, and, you know, eff the patriarchy. We ran into a judgy hospital clerk when our child got sick as an infant, but otherwise we never had an issue.

      I live in a blue-bubble college town and my sense is that many, many women did not change their names. I my core friend group of four couples, late 50s to mid-60s, only one woman changed her name.

    34. I changed my last name with my first marriage. We’ve divorced, one kid. I am since remarried, but kept my first married name to match my child’s. No real reason other than kiddo and I are a team and it felt important to have his name.

    35. I did not change my name in my first marriage. I am the last person from my family with my last name, everyone is dead except a cousin who changed it when she got married. My child from my first marriage has my last name, with support of her dad because he knew it was important to me. When I got married a second time, my child tried to convince my second husband to change his name to match us but mid argument decided that it would be weird for him to give up the name he’s had his whole life. So she made up an amalgamation of our last names and calls us the “amalgamation” family. That’s what we put on our return address on holiday cards and everyone thinks it’s funny.

      My child’s father is involved in her life and the fact that they have different last names has never once been an issue, including when traveling by plane (domestic or international). Whenever this has come up in conversation we’ve heard so many positive reactions and literally no one has ever said anything negative.

    36. Married in 2019 at the age of 38 and kept my name.

      Things I noticed:
      No one asked DH why he was keeping “his father’s name,” as if it wasn’t also, ya know, his own name.

      Reactions and acceptance are not split on liberal-conservative lines; the split was really about who respected me as a person. Father’s fourth wife, a proud liberal, always referred to me by my husband’s last name (thankfully I no longer have to deal with her). H’s parents, who were literally Christian missionaries, didn’t bat an eye.

      DH’s sister in law who is always kind to me didn’t care; the SIL who was a witch made snotty comments.

      Etc etc.

      Ultimately, it’s just another way to make people feel bad about choices that are theirs to make and have zero bearing on someone else’s life.

    37. I didn’t change my name. It’s not something that I believe in (for myself). I wouldn’t have changed it regardless, but having an established career when we were married also made this a non-discussion.

      My spouse literally couldn’t have cared less. One of the many reasons that he was the right one.

  7. Caveat emptor: aritzia won’t give a full refund if you bought it on sale. Only store credit, even if you do get it in within the 2 week limit. I knew that anything more than 50% off was final sale but didn’t realize otherwise. Grr.

    1. My first and only experience with their refund policy is the reason I won’t shop there (well, that plus they skew way younger than me, and I feel like a dinosaur when I shop there). I gave that store credit to my daughter and haven’t stepped foot in one since.

  8. For love of God, why in 2026 do I need to use my social security number and birthdate to confirm my identity to anyone? Fidelity, looking at you, asking this of people who want to establish POAs for their elders for retiree health plans that you administer. [I get that they need it to match to retirees in their system, but not for me, who is a stranger to them; happy to give you my birthdate but not birthdate AND SS#.]

      1. Yeah … when it comes to bank accounts, finances, etc. I would expect someone to verify my SSN.

        1. But it’s not *your* bank account. It’s wanting an adult child’s SSN to be able to act for an elderly parent (so SSN matching for that is OK).

          1. That still makes sense to me. They need to confirm that it’s you, not another person with the same name and birthday. SSN is the way we do that in the US

          2. Are they really able to confirm this though? I know that employers (not the case here) are supposed to confirm SS# matches with new hires (but don’t). I doubt that a random admin back office is even doing this (or that they legally can).

          3. Maybe we’re talking past each other, but in that case I’d expect MORE rigorous security efforts. Scamming the elderly is extremely common.

          4. OTOH, if the problem is that a company is sending info to the wrong address, having a system where that can’t be fixed is actually the company’s creating a security problem and then a barrier to fixing it.

            FWIW, you could file a change of address again with the post office and maybe fix it a simpler way.

    2. Devil’s advocate for a minute: if you don’t do business with these people, how do they know if it is your number that you put down? My guess is that it’s a box-ticking exercise and as long as you put something plausible down (not 123-45-6789), it will sail right through.

      1. uh, would not recommend. Wouldn’t you want someone to have to really prove their identity as part of setting up a POA over your finances?!

        1. OP here

          My dad sold his house and has moved into a retirement community many states away (but near me). Mail forwarding won’t last forever. This was just to update an address of where the administrator of his Medicare HMO sends an Rx drug card to; the health insurance stuff has been updated (which involved dealing with the Medicare HMO provider previously and got that all going to the right place). It was about 17 calls to get my mom removed from the plan after she died (but that took a year also). The Rx side of the plan seems not to talk to the other side of the house or the right part of Fidelity and after about an hour on the phone, finally would up with me needing to send the POA yet again, maybe wait a month, but include a letter on a fax with every single person’s name, DOB, and SS# on it, which I can’t help but think their risk management people think is a good idea to put in an address change.

          I fear what happens when we all age with no children and the systems we will need to navigate. It is horrible now to do a mundane task (which remains undone).

          1. Yeah, these times are rough. I remember them well. I did it for both of my parents, and I admit I broke down multiple times over the phone and sometimes yelled. It never helped of course.

            Try to space it out. Nothing is as urgent as it seems. But it is all very frustrating.

      2. This is kind of the core of the problem. The US uses SSNs as both a unique identifier (how do you track JaneSmith-1 from JaneSmith-2) and a proof of identity (how do you know the person claiming to be Jane Smith is *really, really* Jane Smith. It’s like having the same private key and public key – a security nightmare.

        1. Except by law, SSNs are NOT supposed to be used as identification information. All the government agencies that collect the SSN as an identifier state that it is optional to produce it, although that may mean you can’t get the optional service offered by the government agency you are seeking, or may mean some other means of identification. Seems ridiculous to require SSN and birthdate from the person calling to arrange a change of address, but these financial folks want as much cover as possible so that if a scammer claims to have authority to change a mailing address, they will not be liable if the account is drained and forwarded to the changed mailing address.

    3. Virginia used to have your SS# as your license number. There was a form to opt out and people would get huffy if you opted for that. Now, think they have come around to realizing that not only was this not best practices, but it was a really, really stupid idea, potentially exposing many people to identify theft. My understanding is that financial institutions eat those losses (and pass them along to us as consumers), so we all benefit from tighter data security (and pay for lapses). IDK how many conversations needed to happen to move the lever on things like this, but more need to happen. Often, steps that superficially seem to safeguard wind up creating new risks.

    4. What’s funny is that we have good photo ID things in the US, like a blue-star Real ID license and, for fewer people, a passport. Why not start with things creating less ID theft risk where someone has really vetted a person (that included a SS# check at some point in the process)? I just had to help my teens through this and IDK why we have government IDs and then refuse to use them and try to make a SS# carry all this weight (because computer fields are designed for it and not other inputs)?

      1. Because there are multiple people with the same name and even same birthday. Just verifying that you are Jane Smith isn’t sufficient. They need to verify that you are the Jane Smith that was granted the POA.

        1. Jane Smith with this birthday at address X in state Y though? I think that even if it is “Ronald James Dutton Sr”, “Ronald James Dutton Jr.” and “Ronald James Dutton III” and their nephew “Ron-Jon Dutton”, and they all live at the same address (multigenerational living to care for Sr in his old age in Jr.’s home, a nephew lives there with his mom after his parents divorced), they don’t all have the same birthday and even if they did, they wouldn’t likely live at the same address (but could live a few doors down even). I don’t think that this is actually a problem (used to work in probation in a rural place where crime ran in families that often had very similar names).

          1. Your birthday and address are not hard to find in general to strangers, not to mention people who actually know that info firsthand…. would you want a rogue relative being able to pretend they’re you to set this up?

    5. I assume Fidelity needs it in order to satisfy their own compliance obligations regarding know-your-customer and anti-money laundering regulations. With your SSN and DOB, they can run the necessary and checks to ensure they don’t let someone on an OFAC list, for instance, have access to manage money for one of their clients.

  9. On the post yesterday, a few of us said the barn was our third place, and I thought it might be interesting to learn more about the other resident horse girls. Feel free to chime in whether you’re current or former :)

    I’m from a horsey family and grew up riding, although never at a high level. I took a long break after college for various reasons before I picked it back up in 2020 as a pandemic activity. I bought a mare who’s objectively nicer than I deserve two years ago, and we do a little bit of everything, mostly focused on lower level eventing. I work hard and want to improve every day, but I also try not to take myself too seriously. While I’m nowhere near as brave as I used to be, I enjoy having the freedom to choose what I ride, how I ride, who I ride with, and how I maintain my horse, since–despite all the privileges and opportunities I had growing up–I didn’t get to make many of my own decisions.

    1. This is so cool. I’ve always had an interest in riding, but I have no access to anything like that and although I’ve certainly ridden a horse before, it’s been a hot minute. Not sure starting in my mid-40s would be a good idea!

      1. My stepmom started in her mid-40s because if she was going to drive to take me to the barn, she was going to get something out of it. She’s almost 70 now, has her own horse, and enjoys it as the great passion of her life. It’s never too late!!!

      2. I think you should give it a shot if you want to! Plenty of people do successfully start as adults.

    2. I completely understand the comment about freedom – I’ve had similar experiences doing childhood activities (ballet, running) as an adult where I get to make my own decisions. It is so freeing. Not gonna lie, on more than one occasion my mind has wandered towards picking up riding again. Sadly, all the barns will be at least a 45 minute drive from my house.

      1. I did also have this thought for a second before I realized it was a horse people thing! Personally for all the time I’ve spent in barns, I’ve spent very little time around horses.

      2. +1 me too!

        Where I live, horses would be kept in the stables, and any other farm or homestead outbuilding for other animals, machinery or cars, storage or work spaces could be the barn – anything but horses. :D

    4. I rode for several years in middle school at a fairly casual barn and loved it. The ranch overlooked the ocean on a famously beautiful stretch of the coast. My first boyfriend lived on the ranch and we kissed in the tack room – highlight of my little life then!

      I picked it up again for a little over a year in adulthood and then the pandemic hit and closed the barn. When it reopened, I realized I didn’t miss it THAT much and that that chapter of my life was over. I already have several risky hobbies (mountain biking, skiing fast, whitewater) and felt like I was already getting enough action there and that I was tempting an injury riding just twice a week on a lesson horse. I still love horses and always will but I’m glad to leave my riding days in the past. I’ll still do a trail ride here and there on vacation but that’s about it.

      Also, I think knowing the basics of riding is an important life skill that connects us to our ancestors and shared history.

    5. Anon instead of my usual handle for this because it will easily identify me to any of my coworkers or friends who know my horse habit. I started riding when I was 12 or 13, after begging my parents for lesson starting when I was like 5 or 6 (lessons are expensive, I’m sure they were hoping I would grow out of it). I didn’t own a horse growing up, but had a free lease for my senior year of high school (spoiler alert: sometimes there are reasons horses are free). Growing up I did combined training (just schooling shows) and an occasional endurance ride. I rode on my college’s equestrian team, which was a club sport for us, so super casual. Took a few years off during law school when I lived in a large city and couldn’t get to a barn easily. Started riding regularly again in my late 20s when I moved back to a more suburban city. Bought my first (and only thus far) horse the second I paid off my law school loans about 7 years ago. We do very low level show jumping (like the .75-.85) because the older I get, the more chicken I get about falling off. Goal when I bought her was to get the meter jumpers, but she has a tendency to injure herself, so we did not progress terribly quickly and now I look at the meter jumps and think… you know, we might be good just hanging out with the kids in the low stuff. Love trail riding and hunter paces, but alas, I do not own a trailer, so am at the mercy of friends with trailers for those things. I am seriously considering buying myself a truck and trailer, but not sure I can justify the expense of a truck when I really would only need it a few times a month. If I do ever get one, I’d like to get back into endurance riding.

    6. Grew up riding but didn’t own a horse. It was more fox hunting, hunter trials, some CT, maybe a few C shows. Loosely rode hunters in and after college (didn’t really show as I didn’t own a horse), then bought a horse and rode recreationally until he had to be medically retired. Recently got back into riding competitively at 45 with a wonderful horse I started out leasing and now own. It’s been a blast. We do the low adults and sometimes 2’9” amateurs if it’s offered. And my goal is to move up to the AAs in the near future. Riding as an adult ammy has been so much fun and finding my current barn family has really been a blessing.

    7. I have never become a horse girl mostly due to the expense, but I frequently borrowed a neighbor’s horse for a few months in high school before she sold him. There’s an alternate reality out there where my expensive hobby is horse riding, rather than rock climbing. I think it really came down to the luck of what people I had to mentor me in things.

    8. Horse girl checking in! I’ve been riding since I was 5-6 years old, and my mom was also a horse girl. It was a wonderful sport when I was a moody teenager as I had to be responsible for another animal and put my teenage dramas aside. Our barn was a cooperative so I had actual chores that were entirely my responsibility.

      Then after a break in college and law school I was able to buy a dream horse from Europe when I was working as an associate. It involved a lot of early mornings but I made so many great friends at the barn and it was wonderful for my mental health. The expense is crazy and if I hadn’t had a horse maybe I would have been able to retire by now, but the benefits for my life were huge. I was very serious about developing as a rider, and got my USDF bronze and silver medals and when I retired my horse we were just short of Grand Prix (schooling it but not show ready). I loved the challenge of progressing and training more and more complex movements, and I loved the partnership with my horse.

      Now I’m a partner and a parent and don’t have time for a horse, and I miss it every day. I ride a friend’s horse occasionally but it’s not the same. Costs have gotten out of control so I don’t even know if owning a horse again is in my future.

    9. A little late here, but I started riding as an adult & will hopefully be buying my first horse this year or next! I have just been taking lessons/doing leases for about 10 years, but I think financially I am finally ready for the next step. I also find it hard to switch between horses frequently because I get very in my head about learning how to ride a new horse, so having my own horse will be very exciting. I had been leasing a horse longer time for a while, but his owner had to move away and that was pretty crushing. So everyone cross their fingers for my profit sharing bonus this year!

    10. I’ve been riding hunters (and equitation as a junior) for 39 years. I had a pony growing up that I did the local large ponies on and catch rode some other ponies and horses in a few A shows. I rode in an equitation league for YEARS in the DMV and on my college eq team. I didn’t have a horse until I inherited one in law school and he has been with me ever since! He was a solid 3’ horse but I never really loved showing as an adult so we just toodled around. I board at a “fancy” A shows barn so still take regular lessons and get to ride the fancy babies from time to time. My trainer is trying to get me to import one, but two horses is too much for me. I have other hobbies as well!

  10. Apologies if this has been asked and answered – I’ve been absent on here the last week.

    Why haven’t local authorities arrested Jonathan Ross? I know the feds kicked out state investigators, but what is there to investigate? There’s two videos showing her being shot. Isn’t self-defense a question for a jury, not whether or not to arrest? (That old white man who killed the black teen for ringing the wrong doorbell claimed self-defense and he still got arrested.) I guess I don’t understand how criminal prosecution works because there’s no question that he murdered her, so why haven’t local cops arrested him?

    1. Murder is a legal conclusion, often hinging on intent. I think you’ve got some things to rewind and untangle in your question. And prosecutors must consider not just what they can charge, but what they can actually convict on. So . . . do you see now in a few sentences how things happen vs what you might see on TV?

      1. I mean maybe but I’ve been wondering the same thing. I appreciate how the 10:51 and 10:59 Anons explained it.

        1. I have also been wondering this. Thanks to those who explained what the thinking might be.

    3. I think the two first commenters are being overly dismissive – many people have exactly the same question. But the first commenter’s substantive answer is correct – federal authorities have claimed self defense, and it would not be responsible for state authorities to charge without investigating what happened before the videos, what the shooter’s perception was, etc.

      1. Right? And there is no statute of limitation on murder (in anywhere I’ve ever worked, which is not Minnesota). There is no reason to rush and once you charge a felony, Speedy Trial Act rights really tie your hands in a world of limited state resources and legal office understaffing. And with double jeopardy, why would you rush anything of high importance?

    4. look up “qualified immunity”

      i understand one of the few things congresspeople are trying to do is get rid of qualified immunity for ICE agents.

      1. Seriously. And I’d look hard at legal ethics charges for someone who’d rush to file charges here. Politicians up for re-election who don’t need to keep a law license in good standing? Maybe. Not some rank and file guy who values his reputation as a lawyer.

    5. Self defense is very much a question for both the charging stage and the jury stage. You cannot establish probable cause if you think there is a clear self defense argument, because that undermines the mens rea necessary to charge for murder, and prosecutors have an ethical duty not to file charges they do not have probable cause for. And frankly, based on the video, there is a very clear self defense argument that goes straight to the mental state necessary to charge.

      Those ethical duties sit on top of the thorny issues around qualified immunity. This isn’t akin to George Floyd, where there is absolutely no defense available based on the footage.

      They may charge him at a later date. I’m sure they’re trying to figure out a way to undermine the self defense argument. But as it sits now, I don’t think they can ethically charge him.

      That all being said, I hope qualified immunity is found not to apply and civil suits bankrupt him.

    6. IANAL but I believe it would immediately be removed to federal court to deal with the immunity question, which would involve years’ worth of appeals.

      The feds are also blocking state authorities’ access to the evidence.

      1. This is the key choke-point: investigations and prosecutions must be based on competent admissible evidence. Yes, videos purport to show the events, but they need to be authenticated with witnesses, who need to be identified and interviewed. The autopsy must determine the manner (homicide) and cause (gunshot wounds) of death – that hasn’t been done, reportedly. Forensic evidence must be collected, which would be a huge challenge at this point if nobody thought to secure the crime scene for a respectable homicide investigation. Et cetera. And that doesn’t get into the complications of a state authority investigating and prosecuting a federal employee for actions undertaken while on the job. It’s not that simple, and the feds basically bailing our and thwarting any investigation at all is a shameful dereliction of their duties and their oaths of office to the Constitution.

      2. Criminal matters would not be removed to federal court for the immunity issue AFAIK. Removal is much more of a civil case thing. But I do agree that whatever happened, this would be years of appeals, unless he’s found not guilty by reason of self defense first, which seems likely to me based on the video evidence. (Note that that does NOT mean I think the shooting was justified). Happy to be corrected by a lawyer who practices in state criminal court (I don’t).

        1. Agree — in state criminal matters like murder, the state is the sovereign litigating here as such. State courts can address the federal immunity question (and others) and have jurisdiction. Venue within the prosecutorial district is something you can move, maybe, or within the state more broadly maybe. But federal courts don’t handle state criminal cases — they are courts of limited jurisdiction (but generally a similar jury pool because there are divisions within districts).

          1. Federal courts don’t handle state criminal cases, but wouldn’t the immunity question be a federal question? If the state won on immunity then it would go back to state court.

        2. I’m not sure this is accurate. This was the subject of litigation I n the Fulton County racketeering case against Trump, et al. Mark Meadows attempted removal and it was ultimately rejected because they found his conduct to be political, not official, but absent that determination, I think it might have been different.

    7. Initial reports and even videos of tragic events are often incomplete, which is one of the many reasons why the recent atmosphere of immediate snap judgements followed by rioting in the name of justice is so problematic. In the first video released, it did look like she was trying to flee and might not have hit the officer. In the subsequent videos from the officer’s perspective, it looked much more like she did hit him. Then came the political debate about whether or not she hit him, with opinions divided straight down party lines.
      Regardless, self defense is justified if someone almost runs over a law enforcement officer or does run over a police officer.

      It later came out that Good had been using her car to harass and impede ICE for the hours previous to her death – which is a crime.

      Now it’s come out that the officer was hospitalized for blunt force trauma including internal bleeding, which strongly suggests that she did hit him and he was in fact in mortal danger when he shot her.

      Good seems like she was a very empathetic and well-intentioned person, and her death is a terrible tragedy. But why are we not calling out the activist groups that are leading people into these situations ? Am I the only one cynical enough to think they are manufacturing and then profiting off of these kind of tragedies?
      By all means, protest, make your voice heard, and care about others. But Good made a series of terrible decisions that almost killed the ICE officer and did directly lead to her death.

      1. You are definitely not the only one cynical enough to think that. I completely agree.

      2. I do not know if some of what you’ve said here is true – e.g., that Ross was injured (he looked 100% fine in the videos, and didn’t drop his phone during whatever happened); or that Good was harassing and impeding ICE officers. To me, it looked like Jonathan Ross stood in front of Good’s car while she was backing up and preparing to pull out (away from him), and Ross could have moved out of the way, but didn’t and shot her dead instead.

        Unfortunately, it’s likely that none of us will ever know what happened from any objective point of view, because the Trump administrative is refusing to conduct and obstructing any legitimate investigation. It’s obscene.

        1. CBS news was reporting today that he was taken to the hospital and had internal bleeding. If he went to the hospital at all there will be medical records. Those are not 100% objective in every instance, but should be a pretty objective source of information. There are videos of Good from earlier in the day showing her interference. Presumably those can be confirmed by multiple eyewitnesses. Again, not 100% objective, but close.

          1. The facts of whether he was injured and what she did earlier in the morning after dropping her child off at 1st grade are irrelevant to the issues that need investigation – i.e. did Jonathan Ross shoot her in self defense, or could he have avoided impact by just moving out of the way; and did ICE tactics unnecessarily escalate the situation in general, terrifying Rene Good and causing her to panic? The Trump administration doesn’t want us to know the answers to these questions because it could look bad for them or (equally likely) they really just don’t care at all.

          2. Whether he was injured or not is directly relevant to his self defense argument. He probably has a valid self defense argument without injury, but he has a virtually ironclad one with it.

          3. Ross does not have an “ironclad” self defense case if he was injured (assuming that’s even true). Actions taken in self defense have to be proportionate and necessary. It’s not OK to kill someone in self defense if you could have easily avoided the need to do that by just moving, and it’s not OK to kill someone because you thought they might run over your toe. There is a lot of nuance to the situation, none of which the Trump administration cares to consider or share with the public.

      3. He would not have been released same day for internal bleeding caused by a vehicle. Just no way.

    8. I’m a prosecutor but not in Minnesota or Hennepin County, although in recent days I’ve been asked to advise on this hypothetical in our state. Good and thorough investigations take time and, frankly, discretion, and it might be good that we the public don’t know everything yet. If I were assigned to this case, I’d be having serious conversations about taking it to the grand jury to secure an indictment – you get strict confidentiality and an advantage in securing the indictment before the defendant is aware. Then it comes to the nuts and bolts of prosecuting him, whether on a bare complaint or an indictment – where is he now? I’m assuming he left the state. Can Minnesota state prosecutors get a warrant valid in the harboring state – they can’t just go to another state court themselves, they have to loop in the locals. Who is going to arrest him? Once he’s arrested, will he waive extradition or will he make Minnesota seek a warrant from Governor to Governor? Is he in a state that might be inclined to block his extradition (Florida, I’m looking at you) and is that going to complicate things? It’s easy to pass public opinion, harder to get a probable cause finding in a court of law, harder still to procedurally and properly prosecute. And it takes time.

  11. Lately I’ve been seeing a lot of posts and reels about the Millennial burnout and I’m feeling it so so much. I have it pretty easy – no kids, no eldercare obligations, no real financial stress, but after 20 years working in a stressful job (lawyer) and the state of affairs in the US, I’m just so tired and burned out. The general consensus seems to be that we were promised a better world than our parents had and we grew up with a sense of idealism that we could be whatever we wanted and change the world for the better and those things clearly haven’t happened. And while I objectively like my job, I’m just getting to a point where I couldn’t care less about trying to increase shareholder returns or help meet some arbitrary profitability goal. I figured many of you might be feeling the same or have some suggestions on how to get past this since I need to find a way to suck it up and keep working for a few more years.

    1. Would it help to just let go of the “promised a better world than our parents”, and just reframe your focus to “a good life”?

      If someone in their personal life expected *every* year to be better than the one before, I’d think they were setting themselves up for disappointment – human lives go in cycles, and even if you are very lucky, you are going to have “one step forward, two steps back” years (in your health, your marriage, your career). Why did we expect things to be different on a generational timescale?

      1. Agree with this, and just thought about this recently. I wasn’t really raised with the expectation of having it better than my parents, who are white collar professionals. I do expect technological progress that improves lives across the board, but I am fine occupying a similar space ‘in the social order’ (couldn’t think of a better phrase) as my parents.
        I also think there is a hefty dose of American consumerism in the expectation for endless growth, which doesn’t exist in the same way for others societies.

      2. Xennnial who agrees with this take. But, I’m not sure I was raised with the expectation that life would be “better” for my generation on a global scale. Certainly my parents wanted me to have a good life, and more opportunities than they had, but I don’t think I was under any illusions of changing the world.

        That said, I have felt very burned out over the past few years and completely understand why the OP is fed up with all the work-related BS that we carry around. And I truly worry about the world my kids are living in, which is something I would not have predicted when I started having children.

    2. Here’s a controversial opinion. Working today is WAY harder than it used to be. My job used to be all paper you basically had a library and manually researched things to cite etc, things were printed and walked to different buildings. A deliverable that I complete in 2 days used to take 6 weeks. The advancement of technology has sped up work an insane amount. Humans aren’t meant to expend that much brain power.

      1. I don’t even think it’s that controversial. Email on smartphones did not really improve anyone’s work-life balance. I’m an elder millennial who started my career at a small firm that didn’t require email on smart phones (pretty much only the partners had it),service by email was not yet a thing, and we still wrote and mailed physical letters about discovery disputes, and honest to god it was so much easier when communication wasn’t instantaneous.

        I have no suggestions, I just share your Millennial burnout.

        2. Yes, things happen too fast for our left-behind brains to absorb. It’s all so anxiety-producing.

      2. Absolutely agree, I’m Gen Jones and that “walked to different buildings” or down the hall or even get up to go to the printer built in a lot of mental white space as well as physical activity and I absolutely think that contributes to mental burnout as well as physical effects.

      3. I 100% agree with this. Particularly in lawyering, pace has increased too much. I left law firm life many years ago, but even in-house I feel like I have 25-30 hrs of “really good brain time” a week. Another 10 hrs of “pretty good brain time”… and anything else is at best lower level admin.
        When I see outside lawyers billing long hours multiple days in a row for “really good brain needed” activities, I wonder what I’m actually getting then.

    3. This is 100% correct and a big reason that conservatism is making a comeback. While humanity has made progress in a lot of great areas (looking at you infant mortality rates) the daily life of an average American is currently worse than it was 50-60 years ago. So people think “let’s go back!” Without examining too closely what it was that made things better back then. (I think reasonable cost of living, different expectations about work and career, and the lack of a 24 hour news cycle/constant connectivity were the primary drivers of that well being that we lack now, but we can debate.)

      1. It’s really hard to me to wrap my head around what kinds of job were adequate sole income breadwinner jobs when my mom was growing up.

        1. My in-laws sent 3 kids to college and always had a house they owned on two government workers’ salary. No advanced degrees. Pensions.

    4. There’s a nice little book called Finding Your Walden by Jen Tota McGivney. Find something fulfilling outside of work that aligns with your values.

    5. “ we were promised a better world than our parents had and we grew up with a sense of idealism that we could be whatever we wanted and change the world for the better and those things clearly haven’t happened.”

      I think if you grew up with that sense of idealism, you had a wonderful childhood, and perhaps looking back on it with joy and affection for parents who protected you from reality when you were too young to handle it will serve you better than frustration at having to come to terms with reality as an adult.

      Basically — reality hasn’t changed. Ideally, you encounter it progressively more and more as you become more and more mature, so you’re on kind of a smooth glide path to understanding that ultimately, you will die and nothing else is guaranteed.

      1. Yup. Plus most of us don’t have to look very far back (if at all) in our family trees to see just how hard many people had it in the very recent past. My grandmother saw her brother killed in a farming accident, lost her dad to some infestation, and grew up living very hand to mouth in a family with a ton of kids. She was a WWII bride and mother of eight who seemingly had it all based on pictures of her in her as a housewife in pearls and heels. And then my grandfather left her for another woman, broke and with no work experience. My husbands family is from Poland and lost family in the Holocaust. My husband was born in Poland and remembers waiting in line in hope of getting new shoes. My MIL moved here alone and worked for a year and half to send money home so she could bring over my FIL and their two young boys. I have things I can certainly complain about, but in the grand scheme of things I am so, so, SO lucky. I have clean, hot water on demand, a warm house, and a steady source of food without thinking about it much. I have access to antibiotics if I get an infection and a library full of knowledge. I’m literate. I’m not trying to be too Pollyanna but that is really incredible when you think of all of human history.

        1. Yup. We are SOFT compared to most of our grandparents and great-grandparents. And that really wasn’t very long ago in terms of human history.

          1. Maybe physically soft but it didn’t take much mental energy for any of the menial jobs.

          2. Seriously??? It took mental energy to handle your kids dying young, pregnancy being high risk and unpreventable, no property rights for women in divorce, no legal ability to decline relations in a marriage, unsafe cars, no ability to call 911 if you had a fire… like girl you cannot seriously be saying that the mental overhead of updating too many Google Docs is higher than the mental overhead of a higher probability of death.

          3. Are you thinking about your risk of dying in a car accident every time you drive to work? The background stuff is just background stuff, worrying about it when you can’t do anything about it is called an anxiety disorder. Having too many things that you are directly responsible for and expected to keep up with is a very different type of stressor and is actually far more salient to the human psyche. Especially because they weren’t constantly plugged in to social media and the news cycle telling them about how terrible and dangerous the world is right now.

            Tl;dr yeah, having to update too many Google docs is more stressful than a higher abstract probability of death. Brains are weird.

          4. Congratulations on the most wildly privileged and historic take I’ve ever seen.

        2. Very similar story here. Grandma had two siblings die in infancy because her parents couldn’t afford enough food or medical care for all of the kids. Her mom never recovered emotionally, and her dad drank himself to death. She married someone awful who also drank himself to death when my dad was a kid.

          The fact that I was able to be walloped by life in my 20s rather than before 10 is a gift, and I am so grateful to my parents/grandparents for allowing me the years of childhood. And I’m also grateful for the examples of how to handle adulthood.

    6. This thread is blowing my mind in a good way — I hadn’t thought about the pace of things as being one of my problems, although I recognize that my screen addiction and attendant ADHD aren’t helping anything.

      I’m a Xennial (1977 baby) and friends and I were just bemoaning the fact that who knew the 90s and early 2000s were going to be the most utopian days we lived through.

      I honestly can’t bring myself to care about much these days, it just feels like between AI and Trump the world is going to implode in the next 5 years. I’ll be shocked if we’re still here in a civilized society that bears any semblance to anything we’ve seen in the prior 75 years.

    7. This is also a very American issue and not specifically generational. We opted to form no safety net after WWII so things like pensions other countries have are rarer here. We also don’t have enforced worker protections like other countries. Not to say those countries also don’t have tradeoffs, but many have a different view of work.

      1. You don’t need pensions when other retirement fund options are available, and they are available to all working Americans (at least IRAs).

        We do have many worker protections. Certainly not as many as some other countries, but more than others, and certainly more than we did a century ago.

        1. This is a wild take that says the vast majority of Americans deserve to live as seniors in abject poverty. Pensions provide guaranteed income. For retirement savings like an IRA or 401(k), it’s all about what you can save. And if you’re a clerk at Dollar General making $16/hr, I can guarantee you aren’t saving anything. There are a million and one studies on how the defined contribution system is woefully inadequate – just google and you’ll find.

          1. Ooooh amazing thank you for telling me to Google it wow never thought of that you have really helped my poor little brain grow three sizes today

  12. Help me use my words. We are switching mortgage brokers in the prequalification stage. The first broker collected documents from us but it was just a very painful and disorganized process. We got to the same end point with the new broker in 2 days; it had taken 2.5 months with the prior broker (lots of long silences on their end).

    I’d like to tell them we’re going with another broker without (1) lying, (2) going into details, or (3) being rude. I don’t want a follow up conversation. If you tell me I can just ghost them, I will, but I don’t feel great about doing that in any aspect of my life. What would you say?

    1. I don’t think you need to do anything. It’s not ghosting if they’re not reaching out to you. Plus, they seem incompetent.

    2. if they’re not contacting you I don’t think you need to proactively do anything, but at most I’d say something like “wanted to let you know that we won’t be using your services going forward. Thanks for your time.”

      1. Sorry this wasn’t clear! They are contacting us to “catch up after the holidays,” so I don’t feel great about ignoring it.

        1. Catch up on what? Seems like they dropped a ball and are depending on you to tell them what you need as a next step. Feel free to ghost that lackluster effort. Or say sorry, you went forward with another broker since you hadn’t heard back in so long.

        2. Just respond with something like, “Hi So-and-so, we ended up going with a different broker but appreciate your help with the initial prequalification process. Thanks!” They hear this all the time (especially if they’re so slow!) and won’t be phased. If they send another follow up just ignore it.

          2. Thank you! I think I’ll go with this one. They were nice, just kind of incompetent!

        3. “We went a different direction, no need for a catch-up. Please consider our project/account/request closed.”

    3. I think shopping around mortgage brokers is an extremely normal thing to do- you are trying to get the best rate, after all. I did have one react unprofessionally when I told him I was going with someone else (after I had specifically asked for best and final rate and said I was asking several) and it really just burned his own bridge; I definitely didn’t reach out to him when I was looking to refi. If they email you asking for something (and maybe they won’t!) just say “We’ve decided to go with a different broker. Thanks for your assistance in this process.”

      1. While I understand your point about shopping around (and you told them you were doing that – totally fine!), keep in mind that mortgage brokers are paid on commission, and so any time they spent with you before signing a contract is essentially them working for free. Reaching out to a few to get different rates – totally fine. If you tell each one you are talking to multiple agents – even better.

        But my husband is a mortgage broker and he gets so frustrated when he spends weeks working on a file, gathering documents and meeting with someone to explain different options, and then at the last minute they say – oh sorry I walked into the bank today and asked if they could match your rate, and decided it was easier to just sign with them. Thanks for your help though! Weeks of work for nothing. If you are shopping around, just be honest (which it sounds like you were). And all with the caveat that if the broker is doing a bad job or not following up, that’s on them not you, and feel free to tell them you went with someone else, guilt free.

        1. That’s how commissioned sales work! If he wants the sale he needs to offer the best price and the best service. You don’t make every sale, and you aren’t entitled to a sale just because you’ve tried to sell to someone.

        2. What? That’s how sales works. Talking to someone who works on commission doesn’t create a moral obligation on the part of the customer to buy.

        3. It’s not the customer’s fault that your husband works in a role whose pay structure only values cold hard sales rather than his time and effort.

  13. I also have these pants and think they are great! Honestly I had to double check because they don’t look very flattering on the pictures. But on me they have a slight trendy-feeling barrel that isn’t overly exaggerated, hits at my ankle bones, also travels and wears really well and doesn’t wrinkle at all. Agree that they are on the tighter side on the waist but have a bit of stretch. I’m 5’2 (barely) and got the 2P.

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