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Updated: Aug 29, 2023 146 Comments · by

Suit of the Week: Boss

Suit of the Week

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For busy working women, the suit is often the easiest outfit to throw on in the morning. In general, this feature is not about interview suits for women, which should be as classic and basic as you get — instead, this feature is about the slightly different suit that is fashionable, yet professional.

I really like this sheath dress, with lighter and darker navy details; the skirt also has lighter and darker details. It's a fun take on what is basically a very traditional navy suit.

And I especially like that the navy is light enough that it clearly is not black, so there's no problem with mixing (although of course you can wear black and navy together anyway).

The suit pieces are $248–$545 at Nordstrom.

Looking for other higher-mid-tier suiting like this? Other options of investment suits for women include:

Some of our favorite “investment” suits for women include brands like Theory, Reiss, Hugo Boss, M.M.LaFleur, and Brooks Brothers — expect to pay north of $500 for both pieces.

one of the best women's suits of 2024, from Theory
Theory
one of the best women's suits of 2024, from Reiss
Reiss
one of the best women's suits of 2024, from Hugo Boss
Hugo Boss
one of the best suits for women in 2024, a washable wool skirt suit from MMLF
M.M.LaFleur
Brooks Brothers Essential Stretch Wool Suiting
Brooks Brothers

Sales of note for 9.10.24

Sales of note for 9.10.24

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Comments

  1. cara

    Did anyone see the question on AskAManager this morning from someone who was thinking of taking an in-house job at a tobacco company, but wanted to go into public sector work later and was wondering how it would look?

    From my POV, maybe this is more poli-tics than poli-cy, but I think working at a tobacco company would be a negative for public sector roles. I saw some commentators said “how is this different from alcohol, big oil, etc . . .” and I do think big oil at least would be seen equally negatively.

    • Anonymous

      I wouldn’t work at a tobacco company period (some industries are just plain wrong) – I’m already scarred by the job I accepted doing work I found unethical when I was desperate post-Great Recession. I definitely wouldn’t do it with an eye to public sector work.

    • Anon

      I mean, if you were doing ERISA that would be one thing or SALT or leasing or wage and hour compliance. But other things are can really be Other Things.

      I would really think that if you want Job A, you probably are not a good or candid candidate for Job B (and vice versa).

    • Anon

      Depends on which part of the public sector. Government job in a big tobacco-producing state? Might be seen as a plus.

      • Horse Crazy

        Yeah, I definitely think it varies by location and type of job. Here in CA, work experience in big oil would raise some eyebrows if you were trying to get into many (but not all) government jobs, but I assume in that it’s very different in states like TX. I did not read the AAM letter.

    • Anonymous

      I work in policy and a job history like that would be a non starter for my particular team. We need to be able to stand up to lobbying for the good of the general public and someone who clearly doesn’t hold those values couldn’t perform that job duty.

    • Anon

      That question belonged here, not over there. She helped a weed exec cover up his sexual harrassment. Her opinion is suspect at best.

  2. Anon

    I love Boss. I would love it more if it fit me like it does Queen Letizia of Spain (who looks like she could be an ADA on Law & Order Madrid). I need to be taller or having a longer torso :(

      • Anon

        Totally. She even has a gray streak as of late and yet also does this so much better than I do. But I am too old to channel Kate Middleton and Queen Letizia is my #squadgoals

      • Seventh Sister

        Have you watched The Invisible Guardian or the sequels? They are super-good mysteries. I spent a lot of time in the last year watching Mar de Plastico, which is a cop show about Southern Spain. Much trashier but took up a lot of time.

    • Cat

      Oh agree. I follow a few royal watching accounts on Insta and one of them runs periodic “march madness” style contests about particular looks – like royals wearing jumpsuits, etc. I always feel a little bad for whoever is up against a Letizia or Kate look!

    • Anon

      I love her style! I am not a fan of Kate’s style though which I know is an unpopular opinion. I get that she needs to dress conservative but most things she wears are just too boring or the patterns are little girl-y for my taste. The cuts and styles just makes her look old. Queen Letizia dresses conservative but more modern and fun. So did Meghan when she had a public role. Clean lines, sophisticated patterns, etc.

    • Coach Laura

      I wish I were a) younger b) taller and/or slimmer* and c) actually had an office job** to which I could wear it.

      *Speaking only for myself only, Boss doesn’t fit my not straight up/down short body.
      **I kinda sorta miss getting dressed in pretty clothes that I’ve curated over the years.

    • Seventh Sister

      And the princesses are SO cute. My daughter is little bit younger and I love all the age-appropriate dresses and classic shoes.

  3. Anon

    Fluff ahead! I had a rough year capping a rough decade and a milestone birthday that came and went over the summer when we were still on lockdown and I was working overtime AND that was after a pay cut. BUT I finally got my pay cut from last spring/summer removed and a $500 “thank you”, so the birthday present that I didn’t get is finally mine (now that I am almost X-and-a-half) to shop for.

    I am a ruddy-skinned brunette with brown eyes. And a bit of a magpie (sometimes to my detriment). If you peruse these awfully pretty dresses (which I shall absolutely wear to the grocery store, as I go nowhere else except to walk the dog), please pick a color combo that you think would be good since some of you are very good with knowing your colors. I think I am a Winter?

    https://www.suesartor.com/collections/paloma-flounce-dress

  4. Lilau

    Rush Limbaugh is dead. Good grief, it makes me a terrible person but I felt such fleeting, momentary relief. The bigotry, the misogyny, the cruelty that he embodied and emboldened in the conservative politics and cultural attitudes I grew up around just can’t be overstated. It’s all taken root of course. There will always be angry men who don’t fully understand birth contrfully questioning our humanity, shaming us and mocking us, demanding access to our bodies, and legions conservatives cheering them on and defending these actions as “values.” But I do feel like the world is a little better without that horrible man.

    • Anonymous

      Good riddance to the man who coined the term “feminazi.” I don’t feel guilty for being glad he’s dead. Some people actively make this world worse for others and I feel no obligation to mourn them. I don’t believe you are a terrible person for being happy that the world will be a better place without him.

    • Anon

      I personally don’t think there’s anything bad about feeling relief when a truly terrible human being dies.

    • pnwcatlady

      it doesnt make you a terrible person. we can say the truth about those who are dead. im not rejoicing in his death but i also feel relief because he did bad things, trumpeted and championed terrible ideas that hurt people

      • Anon

        probably killed people. I agree.

        But there will come along someone to replace Rush who is probably worse, unfortunately.

        For what it’s worth, I know someone who knows someone who knows Sean Hannity. Apparently he’s not all that conservative personally. He’s just basically devoid of ethics and knows what sells to his audience. The ultimate in cynicism.

    • LaurenB

      My son texted me that Rush was dead and my husband and I both responded with yay. He was a horrible person. His treatment of Michael J Fox was enough to brand him bad forever, even before he started sucking up to Trump. I feel no qualms about feeling just fine with people like him dying.

    • Anonymous

      Your comment shows everything that’s wrong with the world today. He had 27 million listeners, who don’t share your views. Do you want all of them dead as well? If I disagree with someone, I don’t think they are horrible or wish them dead. Unless they actually killed or threatened to kill somebody. Your reaction really takes politics to another level.

      • PolyD

        I’m cool with not sharing views with people who think it’s okay to mock gay people, people with Parkinson’s, or publicly chastise women for wanting to use birth control.

        And I definitely think the world is better off without Rush Limbaugh. I don’t wish his listeners were dead, but I do wish they’d stop and think for a minute about the hate they so eagerly sucked up.

      • Anon

        Rush is not your average person who just held beliefs different than mine. He actively disseminated his beliefs and a lot of harmful misinformation. Some of your 27 million probably showed up at the Capitol on January 6 intending to overthrow the goverment, but most didn’t, and we’re not talking about them here. Nice whataboutism / false equivalence, though.

      • Anon

        Many years ago I lived in the US and I remember him calling a women’s basketball team “nappy headed hos”, I was in a university where basketball was popular so I used to follow the sport. It was the first time I ever heard of the guy and learned it was a racist term. To me the issue is his influence, some of the views he expressed put people in harm’s way whether it is sexism, racism or homophobia. If this man used his influence to encourage hate towards others, the world is better without him. He could just as easily have his influence to encourage compassion

        • anon

          Rush Limbaugh was a terrible person and I’m glad he’s dead but the comment you’re referencing was said by Don Imus.

      • Anon

        “What does it say about the college co-ed Susan Fluke [sic] who goes before a congressional committee and essentially says that she must be paid to have sex — what does that make her? It makes her a slut, right? It makes her a prostitute. She wants to be paid to have sex. She’s having so much sex she can’t afford the contraception. She wants you and me and the taxpayers to pay her to have sex.” – Rush Limbaugh

        • Lilau

          He went on to demand to see videos of her having s€x, if I recall correctly.

          It also kills me that he apparently thought someone would need more oral contraceptives if she had more s€x, which is a really fundamental misunderstanding and/or lie. It’s just a brand of hate towards women that I’ll never really get over. I’m not sure what the opposite of “cancel culture” is, but it always seemed like he made this attitude acceptable for a lot of people.

      • Anon

        There’s a difference between wishing someone dead and feeling relief untempered by sadness upon someone’s death.

      • Anon

        Grow the f up. There are some objectively terrible people and Rush was one of them. The fact that you can’t recognize that is what’s wrong with the world.

      • anonforthis

        He used to do a segment on his show where he read the names of people who died of Aids and play celebratory horns and noises. I’m certainly not doing that, but I think I get to not be upset by his death.

      • Anon

        I don’t think you proclaiming that you can’t recognize right from wrong is the flex you think it is, hon.

      • anonshmanon

        People with millions of followers can still end up on the wrong side of history and all that’s just. If recent political events aren’t a striking example, then maybe 1933 Germany can be.

      • LaurenB

        Talk about an illogical and odd leap. No, feeling just fine that Rush is dead does not equate to wanting all his listeners dead.

      • LaurenB

        “Your comment shows everything that’s wrong with the world today.”

        Actually, Rush making fun of Michael J Fox’s uncontrollable Parkinson’s movements is what’s wrong with the world today. Would you just sit and smile and listen to Uncle Donald if he mocked someone with a disab — oh never mind.

    • Seventh Sister

      It is taking all of my strength not to text my mom and ask if my dad needs a grief counselor. He LOVED Rush, had a very expensive satellite radio subscription so he could get all-day talk radio.

    • AnonMom

      The long-time sloth at my local zoo also died today, and I felt more sadness over reading about the sloth’s passing.

  5. AIMS

    Totally frivolous renovation question. Some of the doors of our apartment are kind of shabby. Like lots of gunked-on paint, shabby hinges, etc. They are also kind of just crappy generally. We probably should have had them replaced when we moved in but we didn’t think of it because we figured they would be painted and look nice (alas) and now one looks like it may come off it’s hinges and I am just constantly annoyed by them.

    How hard of a project is it to replace just the doors and any idea for how much this would cost? I feel like this is the kind of thing that gets done as part of a larger renovation and I have no idea how much of a pain something like this would be to do. About 8 doors total. Thanks!

    • Anonymous

      Replacing doors is really easy but can range from like $50 each if use hollow core doors, and install yourself with builder grade hardware up to $400+ each if you use solid wood doors with quality hardware. Which is the best option is entirely dependent on the quality and age of your apartment.

    • Anon

      It’s easy if your door frames are square, so you’d doors, hinges, and paint (or a painter).

    • Cat

      Anecdata from my old apartment – in theory, what’s so bad, it’s only 4 doors? In reality, none of the frames were square, the latches were at different heights, it was a total PITA.

    • Friday

      I vote you do it, but I think our solid core doors cost $250 per, and that doesn’t include hardware or paint. Since you said apartment, I would check with your landlord before you do anything. They might be willing to reimburse your or give you a discount on your rent.

    • Senior Attorney

      If the hinges have been painted over, try putting them in an old crockpot with a tablespoon of powdered Tide detergent overnight. The built-up paint will slide right off and you may well find you have beautiful metal under there.

      • AIMS

        That sounds like a great tip but I suspect there’s nothing worth salvaging underneath (but will keep in mind for my dream life farmhouse renovation in the future).

        Does anyone have any idea how much the labor for doing something like this would cost? I don’t mind spending $250-400 per door since we will be here for a long time (not a rental) but I have no idea how to even find someone to do such a specific but small project (and we are not handy). Thanks!

        • avocado

          We have had a number of small carpentry repairs done in conjunction with painting projects, and the painter has always either employed or subcontracted with the carpenter. I’d start with painters. Another option is a handyman. In either case, I’d ask for references who’d had carpentry work done, preferably door replacements.

        • Senior Attorney

          I’ve actually had good luck with TaskRabbit for rando projects like this.

        • Anon

          See if Home Depot or Lowe’s offers installation. The people they contract with are usually pretty good, at least in my area.

        • Anon

          I looked into this using Home Depot’s installation service. If I recall, it was around $500 a door, for both parts and labor. I suspect you could find cheaper, but I just wanted to get a coat estimate.

    • Anonymous

      Especially if your apartment isnt that new, I would caution like others that the doors wont be plumb/square and also that you might have slightly non-standard sized doors. One suggestion of how we solved the cracking gunked-on paint on our 100 year old doors was that we bought a paint heat gun and scraper and scraped them down to the original wood and painted them fresh. It’s quite a bit of work, but very low cost if you’re willing to put in the labor, and they look brand new. We let the hinges sit in paint thinner and scraped them, but that wasn’t as effective. If I were to do it again, I’d try to find new hinges that were the same size and just replace them.

    • anon

      Just went through this! Old house, so lead paint and non standard sized doors was a concern. We found a local furniture restoration company to strip the doors for about $200 a door. They also widened the door knob holes so we could upgrade the knobs (50s knobs were totally degraded). They ended up stripping the hinges, but we replaced them anyway since the hinge dimensions were standard. Our doors were solid wood so this was the definitely the most cost effective path. We decided to stain and seal the doors ourselves once they were stripped and I love that they’re a little piece of history! It was a bit of a process, but ultimately worth it. I’m thrilled every time I use the doors because the hardware is sleek and works properly and paint doesn’t chip off with every open or close.

    • Another anon

      No answer but following with interest. I would like to get some estimates from those ‘doors-in-a-day’ places for a similar project.

    • Anon

      A friend of mine did this, replaced all the old, cheap doors with nice new ones, and she said it was so worth it. It was a standalone project, not part of a larger renovation

  6. Anonymous

    Ugh, feeling worried and frustrated at how online-dependent vaccine sign-ups seem to be. I have a relative who seems to be having some cognitive issues and she was never super Internet savvy anyway and I just don’t know how she is going to get signed up. She’s eligible, but seems to not even really be aware of that and certainly hasn’t made a plan to get the vaccine. I’m pretty sure that even if I made her an appointment, she might miss it. This sucks.

    • Anon

      Can you help her? Can you look for programs in her area that are vaccinating home-bound individuals? In my city, as part of the regular, book-your-appointment-online system, there was a separate effort to vaccinate home-bound seniors.

      • Anonymous

        I’m trying. She’s not homebound and she’s only 70. It’s really hard to figure out and I’m doing my best.

    • Anon

      My brother had to sign my 65-year-old parents up because they were struggling with it even though they are generally pretty Internet-savvy. He said there was absolutely no way that an elderly person could navigate it on their own. It is frustrating and sad.

    • Anon

      The beauty of the internet sign-up in my area is it’s not something where you have to set up an account or password or anything like that. I signed up a friend of mine, not because he’s computer illiterate, but because he wouldn’t have gotten the word that it was available at the place I found out about. All I had to do was enter his name, address, email address, phone number, DOB and check a box that he was >65.
      I called him up, said, “Show up at *place* Wednesday at 9AM with your driver’s license and get your shot. There is an email in your inbox.”
      My boss did the same thing for her inlaws, but had the email go to her email address, because they truly are tech-illiterate.

    • Anon

      Same, my parents refuse to do anything online that involves submitting their info or performing transactions–they will only search, read news, etc. They signed up with their GP over the phone, and settled in to wait for a call. My suggestions to check with pharmacies, call around, etc., are brushed off.

    • anon

      Can you help her? My mom (65) is not tech savvy at all, and I took care of all the online signups.

      • Anonymous

        Like I mentioned, I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t attend the appointment if I made it for her. That’s how concerned I am about these cognitive challenges that have been emerging and are really worrying.

    • Coach Laura

      I spent 2-3 hours a day for over a week to book appointments for my 88yo parents, then booked some for older friends and now volunteer on a facebook group that finds vaccines for seniors, especially those that are not internet savvy or have internet access and/or don’t speak English. See if there is a FB group for your city/state.

      I would make the appointment for some time that you can take her (or have a friend or paid caretaker take her) and tell her what you’re doing, call her two days ahead, one day ahead, early the day-of. Afternoon would be best.

      But if she’s truly homebound and doesn’t go anywhere except the doctor, her risk will be really low. At some point, areas are going to have door-to-door nurses delivering vaccines to shut-ins. They are saying that the Johnson&Johnson vaccine will be good for this as its refrigeration needs are less onerous.

      • Sloan Sabbith

        Not to be creepy, but I remember you’re in WA, right? Our system is a F-ING MESS. I spent ages trying to get my uncle and aunt an appointment and accidentally scheduled one of them under my mom’s name (don’t ask me how, I have no idea). I am a very tech-savvy millennial and I wanted to throw my computer out the window trying to manage Spokane’s stupid mass vaccination site sign up system. Plus you had to be online, ready to go on Tuesday, and if you weren’t in line virtually by 5PM (it opened at 5) all the 2K plus spots for the week filled up before 5:01 PM.

        • Coach Laura

          Yes, I’m in Seattle. I’ve been talking to Seattle Times reporters for weeks, telling them how bad it is. I’ve been obsessing about getting them shots because I have so little control over the rest of my life, this year, this junky situation. How is your dad, by the way? I am sorry I missed updates but I was sending out prayers and good thoughts for him.

    • Anon

      It’s really rough. In some counties the health department is coming to homes for people with significant issues. I don’t know if your relative would qualify but might be worth reaching out.

  7. Anon

    The guy I have been virtually seeing and I have chatted with our respective bubbles and decided we are going to do our first indoor in-person hang. I’m excited because the conversation has been great, as was our zoom date, but also nervous because I haven’t managed to lose my quarantine 15 yet and was hoping I would have by the time I was going to be making first impressions on dates again. I don’t feel like the best version of myself right now and am self-conscious about my body in a way I’ve never been before. I also wish there was a way to communicate to him that this isn’t me at my best and to “stay tuned” because I’m going to be back myself both mentally and physically once this is all over. There is also the issue that I have only worn sweatpants for a year and the date is in my home. Any ideas for outfits that are comfortable enough to sit on the carpet in but also flattering enough for a first date but also forgiving enough to hide the excess fat I’ve gained this past year?

    • Anon

      Something hygge? Like a giant exaggerated turtleneck that will telegraph “cozy” not “hiding”? And black joggers?

      • Horse Crazy

        I would do an oversized top you mention, but black leggings rather than joggers. Just my personal opinion, but I always feel really schlubby in a baggy top AND baggy pants, like joggers, so switching leggings out for the joggers would make me feel a lot better, but still cozy and comfy. Also, add fuzzy socks or slippers, because why not?

    • Anon

      I always think a dress. Dresses look dressed up, many styles accentuate curves, but the skirt part can hide a million sins.

      • Anon

        I like making it hard for a first real date. So to me, so many layers I resemble an onion. Dresses are for summer or if I need for something to be “off like a prom dress.”

    • Anon

      You need to deal with your toxic attitude towards fat! I guarantee I’m much larger than you and I look hot, often!

      Why would this date be in your home instead of outdoor dining? Why would it involve sitting on the floor?

      I’d go with jeans and a deep v-neck sweater that isn’t super clingy.

      • Anon

        OP here – sorry I didn’t mean to come across as having a negative attitude towards fat. I don’t at all. I just know my own personal best (in my own opinion) and am not there right now. The date is in my home because it is -20 outside where I live and indoor dining has not re-opened yet.

    • Anon

      Guarantee that insecurity is less attractive than an extra 15 pounds. Positive self talk and lots of it!

    • Anon

      Agree with everyone above who said please deal with your feelings about your weight. I’m a larger woman and I think I’m pretty hot. Confidence goes a long way!

      To answer your actual question, I would do dark colored compression-esque leggings and a slouchy sweater.

      • Anon

        OP Again – I mentioned this above but want to clarify here. I have nothing at all against being larger and agree that women of all shapes and sizes are hot! I simply know what I look like when I feel my best and I am not there right now, which has caused a hit to my confidence about my looks. I’m not fitting into any of my clothes so it’s hard to feel excited picking an outfit in those circumstances.

        • Anon

          I understand! My personal favorite leggings are Beyond Yoga Spacedye – they are fitted enough to feel slimming but comfy enough not to crush me, and the fabric is super soft. I like the oversized sweaters at Modern Citizen and Anthropologie. (For reference I’m a 16-18 and these sizes/brands all fit me in either XL or 16.)

        • Monday

          I understand not being excited to get dressed when your clothes don’t fit. Can you just go with “good enough” for your outfit, but be more into your makeup or accessories? Better yet, get something you are excited to wear and that fits, if you have time before the date? It’s worth it to own at least one outfit you love that fits you right now.

          I’d caution against the “stay tuned” messaging you mentioned. (Not that you were going to say this, but you know what I mean.) The right person understands that nobody is feeling their best right now, but moreover is not going to show up with the attitude “I guess this is ok for Covid, but let’s see if she can turn things around after.” The right person will be interested in the current you–physically and otherwise.

    • Senior Attorney

      Yeah OMG please don’t tell him he should stay tuned because you will be thinner/more attractive at some unspecified time in the future. What good can possibly come of that? Do you really want him tapping his toes and looking at his watch, waiting for it to happen? Do you want to feel like he’s making allowances for you in the meantime? And do you want to put him in the position of having the standing to buy into your negative evaluation of your body? No, no, no! Agree with everybody else that positive self talk is the way to go here! (Ask me how I know, BTW. Been there, done that, never ended well.)

    • Kris

      Have you checked out the insta feeds/blog posts for someone like Caralyn Mirand or Maxey Greene? They’ve both got a range of super cute outfits and styling tips for women who are in the L/XL range (Carlyn is a 14 and Maxey is an 18). If you’re not used to dressing a slightly bigger body, maybe looking at the recs of someone who is and who does so professionally would help give you some ideas (and actual links to things you could order?).

    • Anon

      I’m not a man so maybe this would be different, but it would be so off-putting if a date told me not to worry, this wasn’t their normal, best weight.

    • Anon

      So, I’ve done some pandemic dating, and while I make it a practice not to ever comment negatively on my body to my dates, every man I’ve interacted with more significantly has brought up that *he* doesn’t feel at his physical best these days. You don’t need to say anything, it’s just something everyone is really aware of, and fairly sympathetic towards, at the moment. Leggings, a slouchy sweater, low-key lipstick, and some pretty jewelry have been my go-to date look since it got cold. Good luck and have fun!

  8. More on schools

    I read the morning thread, and we heard from the parents, and we heard from the teachers, but one voice was entirely lacking, and that’s the voice of the kids. I’m an essential worker (social worker) and so I work with a lot of kids, day in and day out, who have significant needs which are not being met – at all – by zoom school. All these accusations of privilege this morning, but what no one seemed to realize this morning is that our public school system serves a he|| of a lot more people than just two-parent families whose moms hang out on this board, whose living quarters include multiple rooms. The kids I work with have parents (IF they have two active parents in their lives) who are grocery store workers, house cleaners, restaurant workers and other essential workers – i.e. working six days a week to keep the family in food and shelter, and simply not at home to do the “increased supervision” that some posters this morning thought was no big deal to ask of parents. A lot of kids in public school also have parents who speak another language, not English, and so couldn’t help with the homework even if they wanted to (another common perception on the morning thread – that parents just don’t want to step up.) One thing I didn’t realize about remote learning is that many kids don’t turn on their cameras, and teachers don’t or can’t make them, so the students aren’t pictured on camera and the teachers never really know if they’re there. Most kids just walk away or don’t pay attention. Yet other kids have stopped going to school altogether, and any kind of truancy enforcement seems to have fallen apart with the wind. Some kids don’t have their own bedroom (they share one, or sleep in a common room like the living room) and so finding an acceptable place to do zoom school is another significant hurdle which was blithely dismissed in this morning’s thread.

    These are kids who are actively falling through the cracks, every day, right before our eyes. The fact that our public schools are still closed at this stage is an acute crisis. Studies show that the prolonged closure is extremely detrimental to the mental health of children, and that spread is unlikely in classrooms and that it is safe to return even absent everyone being vaccinated. Yet some school boards (example: San Francisco) are using this closure as a bargaining chip in negotiations for things like universal healthcare, rent relief and debt forgiveness, and putting a reopening timeline as far back as fall 2022. And others talk about transitioning to zoom school more permanently, a prospect which we should all find terrifying. School is essential, teachers are essential, and I think they should absolutely be paid more and supported more in general, but nothing in my mind compares to the 5-alarm house fire that is the crisis of our still-closed public schools.

    • Anon

      Thank you!

      My BFF in my city is a social worker with 3 kids on zoom schools, so she sees this at home and at work. Our K-5 elementary school has a program for blind kids at it — they have had zero meaningful school in the past year. Other kids are in wheelchairs with FT school aides (IDK if they go to people’s homes — I can see why they wouldn’t and why parents might not let caregivers near medically fragile kids). Not every parent speaks English or can even help with math. Some parents leave their kids alone all day b/c they have no choice but to go to work in person, so those kids may or may not log on, may or may not get the help they need, etc. Public schools don’t just serve the kids of Karens (and the Karens will probably leave anyway).

      And I’m guessing there won’t be in-person summer school to catch up the kids who have fallen the most behind.

    • anon

      Thank you for saying all this.

      (As an aside — I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I think the people who are insinuating that parents just don’t want to step up and parent are out of their minds.)

      • Anonymous

        I agree with your second point. I argued against teacher bashing on the morning thread, but I in no way think that is about parents not wanting to be with their kids. I just think we need to stop making teachers the scapegoat here.

      • Anon

        I think it speaks to people who totally don’t get the realities of being a working mom. Mom jobs aren’t often cushy for-pin-money jobs that a family can just scale back from with no consequences. I am the one who keeps a roof over my family’s head — this would never be expected of Dads, but it’s OK to call out Moms who just want the schools “babysitting” my kids (aren’t they supposed to teach them), as if all Moms just wanted to go to yoga (in a pandemic???).

        There is so much hate spewed around and it kills me that a lot of it comes from other women at women. It shows that no one values the work women do — teachers do more than babysit; working moms are already likely fully spoken-for for daytime time commitments (or may do in-person work or work shifts and have to sleep during the day, never mind zoom schooling going on)

        • Anon

          I am also a working mom, but if mom is the only one who can provide childcare in your family, that’s a you issue.

          • Anon

            I know of some families where both parents are still married to each other and both get to WFH at will, but OMG that is not every family and not every job is like that. Not every boss. I know about 5 women who have quit jobs and even guys who are working a flex schedule now that they never expected to a year ago.

    • Anon

      We already don’t pay teachers fairly. Now we’re asking them to be heroes in a pandemic and risk their lives for children.

      I agree that most kids really need school. But we’re in an actual once in a lifetime (hopefully) pandemic, the scale of which has not been seen since 1918. A lot of people’s rage over the entire situation is directed at teachers, who are victims too.

      Specific examples of specific school districts are just that – anecdotes.

      • Anon

        Grocery store workers and meat plant workers also didn’t sign up for this. Like NO ONE signed up for this.

      • Anon

        I think most on this morning were upset that even with a vaccine for themselves, some teachers were still not willing to come back. For anyone that agrees with that premise (which the poster I’m responding to may or may not fall into):

        What is your alternative solution? Especially in light of what this OP just outlined? A solution that deals with the reality that a) kids won’t get vaccinated for a year+ from now potentially and b) doesn’t have some utopian world where all of a sudden grocery workers are paid to stay home with their kids not in school for another year+ etc etc, among other idealistic changes (given that is a world which will just not happen at least IMO, or at the very least not before all kids in this particular moment in time have reached education crises, if they haven’t already)?

        And to me the anecdotes ARE important. Because even if it’s just, say, the crazy board in San Francisco we are pointing to (which its not, it’s many many more places!) that is still an entire city of children we are failing.

      • KH

        But we’re not. The whole point of the thread this morning was that teachers are refusing to go back AFTER being vaccinated.

        • Anon

          I think those were anecdotes intended to spark outrage and not the widespread reality of most school districts.

          • Anon

            I provided an anecdote and am in a city large enough to have an NFL team and it is the second-largest district in my state. Our public school students are largely black/brown and is is not unusual for a “rich” school to still have 25% of kids on free/reduced lunch and free breakfast daily. So not just a few kids suffering at home. Zoom school may be meaningful at college and even high school where kids are more computer savvy and already know how to type and do work independently from lectures. To expect the same of a second grader or where the parents speak English as a second language is not fair to them.

      • More on schools

        I have a longer reply downthread that failed to nest. In short: yes, I am okay with adding teachers to the long, long list of essential workers/heroes who have already been asked (or required) to step up, long before there was a vaccine, because they are essential.

        • anon.

          I’m a teacher and a parent and this is my view and has been since schools failed to open in the fall. Teachers are essential just as other essential workers are. I find the entire thing insane frankly. Flame me if you must other teachers, but that’s where I fall.

    • Anon

      Child suicide rates go down every summer, until kids graduate from school, when the pattern vanishes. Regular school and Zoom school are sources of real despair for many children.

    • Anon

      I’m curious how schools will re-calibrate when we do get back to full-time in-school learning. Will fourth grade become the new third grade? Schools despise having students repeat a grade, even in normal times when there are adequate circumstances to warrant it, but I can’t imagine they’re eager to change the curriculum and all the testing, so what’s their plan? I hope administrators are taking the struggling kids into account and doing the make-up work so necessary to make sure everyone’s on an even playing field. (And even if you did do ok on that chapter on Zoom, did you really learn it?)

    • Sloan Sabbith

      Child abuse is also prevented and addressed by being at school. Schools are a literal lifeline for kids in terrible situations- teachers may be the only adults in their lives who notice that a kid is acting differently, or the only one who will listen to a kid when they report abuse. The entirety of the school staff should have been vaccinated with healthcare providers so kids can go back.

    • Seventh Sister

      Around here, one of the arguments against reopening is that since COVID-19 has struck low-income and nonwhite students and their families very hard, we shouldn’t have school because 1) the parents in those groups don’t want the schools to open and 2) poor and nonwhite kids will get COVID-19 at a faster rate if schools reopen. I don’t doubt 2), but I am skeptical about 1).

      • Anon

        1) isn’t just theoretical. There are already school districts that partially reopened, but middle class white people have been the ones most willing to send their kids to school, while poor and nonwhite families have opted out.

  9. Anon

    For anyone who was amused and not horrified by my story of my daughter reading the Communist Manifesto for a group discussion in her liberal arts major (and how it would confirm my conservative relatives’ views about both California and college), her zoom discussion was today. One of her classmates was holding a baby the entire time. We start our indoctrination young!

    And FYI, the debate definitely focused on how communism sounds nice in theory but hasn’t worked well in reality.

    • Anonymous

      More people should read primary sources they disagree with. This is really a total non-issue.

      • anon

        +1. I am not sure why you are making such a big deal of this. We all had to read it in high school and college. The real issue is how little primary source material is being read in today’s high school courses. I hope it’s not the same when they get to college.

      • Anon

        I totally agree. I hope that’s obvious. I really thought a baby being there was funny (and cute).

        • anon

          I thought it was funny and appreciate the update! Not sure why people on here are being so humorless.

    • Anon

      My favorite picture book (for adults) is The Commissar Vanishes. Crude photoshop disappearing people from pictures as Stalin purged them. Like a guy’s shadow is there, but the guy is now a pine tree. Shows before and after versions. It is remarkably chilling and I’ve owned it for 10+ years.

      Plus: the whole Navalny circus.

      • Let’s not conflate?

        I mean this nicely, communism has definitely not worked out in practice, certainly not on any sort of large scale, but Navalny is not an example of anything to do with communism or Stalinism.

  10. More on schools

    Yes, we’re asking teachers to be heroes in a pandemic. I am okay with that – the weight on the scale (literally, our children’s futures) is significant enough that I’m okay with that ask. After all, we’re okay with that ask when it comes to: grocery store workers, restaurant workers, retail workers, doctors, nurses, medical administrative staff, pharmacists, dentists, optometrists, speech therapists, podiatrists, some lawyers, legal administrative staff and court staff, police officers, firefighters, municipal workers whose jobs can’t be done remotely, construction workers, day care workers, postal service workers, bus drivers, truck drivers, and subway drivers, to name just a few. Yes, I am okay adding teachers to this list of other heroes.

  11. f da

    Yeah they’ve been peppering in that they usually go to the gym more but haven’t been able to, but they’re trying these home workout videos etc etc . .

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