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Reader C has a great question about sexism disguised as gentlemanly behavior:
I am a woman in a male dominated field (architecture). Many times I am the only woman in a meeting. All of the guys shake hands upon introductions. When it's my turn, they hesitate or give me a lame shake the tips of my fingers.
This really bothers me. I don't have any desire to talk football with the guys, but I think it's rude not to offer the same courtesy. I don't think this topic has come up before on Corporette. I would be interested to see what other women think and have experienced.
I haaaaaaaaaaaate that limp handshake. I really, really do. It's always seemed based in notions of gentlemanly demeanor, as if our frail little hands might be crushed — or a forceful handshake might be too passionate. (Ladies, clutch your pearls — did you see that handshake he gave her?)
(Originally pictured: Untitled, originally uploaded to Flickr by ginnerobot.)
I suppose one way to look at this is that you're being too passive in waiting for him to take your hand. Thrust your hand out, offer a wide smile, and give ‘im a nice, hard handshake. Not too hard, of course — it's not a bone crushing competition. If he offers you a limp handshake, grasp his whole hand and shake it firmly.
Readers, how have you responded to limp handshakes? Are there other “gentlemanly” things men do that annoy the heck out of you?
(For example, does it bug you when men wait until you get off the elevator first? Or hold the door open for you? For my $.02 on those latter two things, I view it as an issue of efficiency. If 80% of men have been trained to wait until I get off an elevator first, I had best be ready to get off the elevator first thing to keep the whole system moving smoothly… and hey, I usually prefer to get where I'm going faster, anyway.
And I've talked before about how I've felt like I had to be the first person to swear in a meeting with male colleagues.)
2021 updated images via Deposit Photos / everett225.
Some must-read business books for women — update coming soon!
M
The dead fish is the worst!! It is so hard not to judge the giver and assume he shakes everyone’s hand that way. I often find myself in the same situations as C, and agree with not being passive about waiting to receive the handshake in a meeting situation. If you get the dead fish, you can’t help but to be grossed out for a moment, but then move on!
Glenyse
Having been a single mama to a son, it was important for me to show my son that no matter the gender a firm handshake was ALWAYS the best handshake. As a man, he now appreciates that lesson.
M, I also agree, you can’t be passive and I recommend grabbing the recipients hand like you mean it and giving a gentle, but firm shake. It’s usually met with comments, like “you must of played football, or you must lift weights.” Great. I’ve done both and we can now compare notes.
May
Hadn’t really thought about this before, but you’re right, Kat, it is sexist.
I rather like people holding doors, etc. Mostly because it seems to be a dying art where I am, and I can’t get beyond thinking that men who do that sort of thing are more gentlemanly. Sad, perhaps, but true.
Anon
I hate when men all wait for me to get on the elevator first when we’re all going to the same floor (like the elevator from the parking garage to lobby) and then wait for me to get off of the elevator first, even though since I got on first I’m in the very back. This happens to me all the time! I’m glad that the men are so polite in my office but I really just want to move more efficiently in the morning.
Ditto!
Or… when people hold the door for you when you are too far away, which makes you feel compelled to sprint to the door.
Sconnie
I recently saw this drawing describing the distance at which you should hold a door open for someone and I love it.
http://gothamist.com/2011/06/22/door_holding_etiquette.php
Ditto!
Perfection.
eek
I do awkward/why are you doing this when it involves a person with small children or a stroller. I’ve also helped women with their strollers on escalators, like carried their stroller while they carried tot or helped carry part of it. I figure at 5’2″ I come across as less threatening/empathetic as a man and sometimes everyone just needs a little bit of help.
I give and prefer to receive a strong handshake and get the heebie jeebies when I don’t because I can’t unfeel a bad handshake for a long time. I appreciate, but don’t expect people to hold door/be polite. But, I can’t stand when I hold a door for someone and they can’t say thank you. That’s just messed up.
eek
err than a man. I don’t want to come across like a man, at all.
Esquared
You must be my twin, down to the 5’2 part!
My sentiments exactly!
I just think holding the door is being nice to everyone, not simply being gentlemanly!
eek
aww, and we can really be Esquared, too.
Totes McGotes
“I can’t unfeel a bad handshake” – this, this 1000x this!
rosie
My biggest pet peeve is when I go through a door and hold it for the person behind me, but they don’t reach out to catch the door. It’s not a big deal if there’s no one behind them, but, if there is, I have to drop the door on the next person or become the door holder for a while.
Totes McGotes
I cannot stand this. I am not your damn servant. I actually had to yell at a friend about this.
Samantha
The worst is when I’m going up the stairwell and someone above me holds the (floor) door open for me. Have to sprint up the stairs in an undignified manner. It was much worse when I was pregnant, then I would huff and puff and be selfconscious about the whole thing. I was much more relieved when someone above me just let the door shut.
Genderless politeness
I am a huge fan of politeness and being considerate, but I don’t understand why it has to be gender-based. I do want the man who got to the door first to open it for me, but I also want the woman who got there first to open it for me, and I do the same when I get to the door before someone else, regardless of gender. It seems like we are going to extremes. Some people believe men should always do the polite thing, and others believe they should NOT open doors or wait for someone else to exit an elevator – I’ve seen this to the extreme of cutting me off just to not appear to be letting me pass. Why can’t we all agree that the person closest to the elevator door will exist first, and if womeone is holding a bunch of boxes, another person will hold the door open for them? That should be the standard of politeness, not the gender of the doer or receiver.
emmaglenn
I very much appreciate it when a man holds the door for me – to the same degree that I appreciate it when a woman does! Sometimes I think we worry so much about sexism that we’re missing the simple fact that holding the door someone is meant to be polite and the intentions are kind. I would hate to think that when I hold the door for others (which I always do if they’re close behind me) they think I’m being rude. That just seems silly, and I hold the door for people of any gender.
It’s true, some of the men who are holding the door open for me might be doing it because I’m a woman, which is sexist at its core, but I don’t think the right way to beat sexism is to tell men to stop being polite to women. The way to beat sexism to it show by example that women can hold open doors too, and men can hold doors open for other men.
So many of the smart, professional women I know are over-compensating for sexism by being annoyed that anyone wants to help them. People who are trying to be polite become ignorant enemies. How about when a man opens a door for you, you just make sure to return the favor?
As far as the original topic of this thread goes – the weak handshake – I can’t stand it from any gender. A handshake is supposed to be a sign of respect, and that purpose is defeated if you don’t put anything into it. It’s not rocket science – you don’t need to break my bones. Just don’t be passive. When I reach out to shake your hand, shake mine too.
AIMS
Hate the limp handshake, hate it even more when I get it from other women, which is, sadly, too often
I think if you’re not getting a handshake, period, offering your hand is great advice. In terms of getting a good handshake out of someone, that’s tougher. I think you just do your best to be firm on your end and leave it at that. If it’s someone you’re friendly with, you *may* consider saying something like, “oh, c’mon, you can do better than that” with a big smile, but I’d only do that if I knew the person well enough to know they would take it a joking way and not be offended (I did this once with a law school classmate and it did work).
Anon
I’ve never had the limp shake from guys before, but I have from women. I always find it very odd, especially since our (female) principal in elementary school made sure that everyone knew how to give a correct handshake, so I always just assumed that it was something everyone learned how to do growing up!
D
This is something that was taught in university for me. However, in this case the focus was to teach women not to have the limp handshake. I’ve also found that women from the other main university in the area overdo it and will crush your hand, especially if they are on the petite side.
AIMS
I went to pretty good schools and yet we never covered this one. Which is a shame.
I think we really hurt kids by not teaching them basic rules of etiquette, handshakes, how to write a resume/CL, etc. in schools. You can’t assume that people will learn these skills at home. It can be like Home Ec. used to be back in the day – an all-purpose life skills course mandatory in every jr high school. And, law schools should have a dress/interview/how to be an intern, etc. seminar for all incoming students.
But seriously women who do the limp handshake offend me way more than any man who has ever done it.
Lyssa
I had an English teacher in high school who made a point of teaching stuff like this – he would make us practice college essays and interviews (and throw wacky challenges at us during the interviews) and professional introductions and how to talk about our acheivments (never say you’re “pretty good” at something – damning with faint phrases). His reasoning was “where else do you learn it?”
I agree that we really should have some sort of a “adult living” class where you learn things like this (also things like: the justice system, sex ed and birth control, health and nutrition, auto maintenance, child care, elder care, how insurance works, debt management, etc. Why won’t they let me rule the world, again?)
anon
We learned in French class in first grade!
rosie
We had a substitute teacher in middle school that gave handshake lessons (with a candy for the best handshake at the end).
Barrister in the Bayou
Ugh I hate getting it from women (although I have never gotten the dead fish [this looks so strange on the screen] from a man)! I just want to crush their hands out of aggravation. What makes it worse is that I’ve gotten it from one of my classmates right before a deposition. I lost a little bit of respect for her and she is super smart!
May
Been quiet too long – someone is sharing my handle! :(
Annie
Same thing happened to me.
Hrm.
And it just happened to me. Apparently I need to come up with something more memorable?
BB
A few weeks ago, I had drinks with my husband and his male colleague. They were talking about a female colleague (my husband’s new boss), and they were saying that they felt she’d be farther in her career if she were a man. And they called her “bitter” about it.
It really, really bothered me, because (as I told them both), “bitter” has a negative connotation that’s often associated with women of failure, weakness, jealousy and irrationalsim. They didn’t mean it that way, but they’ve been warned.
And hugs with cheek kisses bug me. Can’t I just shake hands like everyone else? Why do I have to kiss or be kissed by virtual strangers (or their wives, whom I’ve never even met before)? I did the handshake thing with a wife of my husband’s colleague, and she had such a look of shock on her face that I didn’t go in for a hug. I ended up doing the hug thing while gripping her hand between us. Awkward.
Ewww
Yes, can we please dispense with the kiss on the cheek in a business setting? It’s really really awkward. I H-A-T-E it. Why do some men think it is acceptable to shake every man’s hand before or after a meeting but when it comes to me or any woman, give me a hug and a kiss on the cheek. I find it demeaning. With the habitual cheek kissers, I’ve found that sticking my hand out doesn’t work since they pull me in for a hug kind of like what happens with you, BB so I’ve resorted to being the “stitchy” one by telling them that kissing is not preferred and I’d prefer a nice hearty handshake instead.
Kisses do not belong in business. Ever. Ew.
me too!
Most awkward moment ever when a co-worker from another office hugged and kissed my check in parting. Granted, he’s probably old enough to be my grandfather, but it was just so. weird. and. awkward. Why, WHY would you kiss me? We just met yesterday, and I’m your colleague! Another colleague side-hugged me in greeting once, and I was clearly perturbed by it. So much so, he made a comment about I’d be telling HR that he hugged me. Again, old enough to be my father, and he hasn’t done it since, but still. You’ve met me 3 whole times, and each time I give you my hand to shake. Why would you think that this time you should hug me?
Julie
Agree 1000%. I hate the cheek kiss in business. Hate it SOOO much. And its not so much the habitual guys — its the guys I’m meeting for the first time. It always takes me by surprise which makes it even more awkward.
ruby
don’t ever do business in eu or certain other parts of world if you don’t like it.
AA
When I’m in the EU or South America that’s different. There they all do it – men with men too so it is a cultural norm and therefore not at all off-putting. When people do it here where it is absolutely not business norm it has totally different connotations.
My only problem there is figuring out if it is a one, two or three kiss place and occasionally going to the wrong side and giving a real kiss (that only ever happened in a social setting thankfully – but still embarrassing!!)
eek
yes, it’s skeevy. It’s happened to me a few times and I shall forever remember each occasion. I do believe it was just the person and that they felt grandfatherly towards me and they weren’t trying to be anything other than kind, but still. In each instance, I didn’t work for this person, they were semi-retired generals and quite gentlemanly (apart from cursing). However, my colleagues know my aversion to being touched/hugged and would tease me to which I would respond that they were just jealous.
BrieCS
I have only once ever had the cheek kiss thing actually *at* work and that was with an Italian man I’ve worked with for four years. It was awkward only because it surprised me – otherwise, he knew it wouldn’t bother me so it was alright. From anyone in the U.S., I’d be weirded out.
Anonymous
Yes! My company, and industry is incredibly male dominated. I HATE when a man whom I have met once at a company function feels the need to hug me every time I see him at another function…. Just shake my hand. So right on the kissing as well, totally does not belong in the workplace. You are my boss, not my Dad, thank you very much.
SB
I hate to say this, but I even hate the cheek kiss thing from family. Except for my immediate family (whom I mostly just hug), I HATE it.
NavyHawk
I work with a lot of Quebec clients and the cheek kiss is very common in business. I am uncomfortable when my clients do it but it’s what they do/
CA Atty
Have to agree with Kat here, just grab the hand and shake away. It is annoying, but not any more annoying than the guy with the super-crush handshake that makes you feel like you have to squeeze back so he doesn’t think you’re a wimp and you’re thinking “what the heck, it’s just a handshake, dude!!”
As for the elevator/doors thing, it doesn’t irritate me in the whole “I’m equal you shouldn’t hold doors” way, I’m again with Kat in the efficiency thing. I do like to get where I’m going, but I always feel like I have to be quick like a bunny to keep from holding anyone else up! And don’t get me started when I’ve gone to my clients’ work sites, which are almost always secured buildings. I don’t have a key, so letting me go first through this door just means I have to stop and move aside for you to open the next!
M-C
In Europe I never have any problem with handshakes. Both parties squeeze, enough but not too much, about the same, nothing happens, you shake everybody’s hand, boys and girls, it’s standard.
What I really loathe about Americans is this twisted idea that handshakes are a competition, that whoever grips the strongest wins. I hate getting my hands crushed. So I basically avoid shaking hands with Americans if I can get away with it (and I don’t mean kisses are OK, they’re truly not OK in the US, ever). And if I’m forced to, I’m prepared to yank my hand away if they start giving me the death grip. I don’t care what they think about it, if they’re going to injure me I’m allowed to get out any way I can. Usually I can refrain from punching them in the face with my left hand :-).
V
I frequently get comments from men along the lines of, “Wow, what a firm handshake you have!” I just smile and say, “Thank you, that’s the way I was taught,” and move on. I know other women who would leap on the issue, but for me, it’s not a battle that I choose to fight, as being aggressive about it would, I think, just make most men (and women!) feel very defensive about it and have the opposite effect of what I had intended. Also, I think that if more women would simply give firm handshakes, then men would have less reason to be surprised about it or feel as if they have to treat us differently. I still get astonished when I shake hands with a female professional and all she does is gently lay her hand in mine. Umm, are you expecting me to kiss it or something? It’s called a hand shake for a reason.
As for the last part, about “gentlemanly” /”chivalric” behavior, I come from the border of the South and the North, so I’m fine either way if a guy runs ahead to hold a door open for me or conversely, if the guy leaves the door to slam in my face even though I am right behind him. To the former, I smile and say, “Thank you,” and also quicken my pace so he doesn’t have to hold the door any longer than “necessary”. As for the latter, I simply don’t give a thought about it. I do have a friend from the South though who went to college in the North and who had cultural whiplash the first time she stepped foot in Northern territory, when she was struggling with her luggage on the train and no one offered to help her with it. She was quite huffy about the incident for some time after but eventually she acclimated.
FP Angie
My boss is great. He really is. BUT… we are both of Latino descent. He will sometimes refer to me as “NAME-ita,” like the diminutive form of my name in Spanish. It drives me nuts. I may someday just respond by doing the same thing to him name by calling him Pablito or Juanito.
Godzilla
Please do this ASAP and report back.
mamabear
re; Juanito You totally should! Though I did deeply love a waiter at my favorite mexican restaurant for calling me the “ita” version of my first name after many years dining there, I’d probably have felt differently if he’d been my boss.
Totes McGotes
How have you waited so long to do this??
Barrister in the Bayou
Totally different topic… but I hate it when people who don’t know me and are not Latino/a use the Spanish pronunciation when saying my name. My name is not a name that you automatically assign to a Latina so it catches me off guard when someone says it to try to act familiar with me. I’ve been tempted to respond with something along the lines of “only my momma calls me that” but I haven’t been able to summon up the courage… yet.
anon
Are you latino/latina? Would you feel different if they were latino/latina? I hate that people assume because I have blond hair that I am not or don’t know what I am talking about when I use my mother’s first language or the accent of a language I was raised around and was at one time fluent in. I’m just sayin….
law talking girl
I would be pleased if someone used the correct pronunciation and accenting of my name instead of the American English version. Granted, the difference is relatively minor and probably not noticeable to any but the most discerning ear. But if anyone ever did I would be shocked and excited. Note: not a Spanish name.
Bluejay
And I hate when people assume I’m not Latina because my name doesn’t “sound” Latina. So maybe you shouldn’t be so judgy.
M-C
So do you have a problem with being Latina or something? Otherwise, how could you be offended by people 1) being aware that English isn’t universal 2) making an effort to pronounce your name properly. And if it’s a problem with your mama, maybe you should be working that out with her directly instead of some well-meaning stranger?
Frump
It’s so funny that something as simple as a handshake could be so complicated. Sexism of the issue aside, I just hate fail handshakes, be they super limp and dead (I’ve gotten these more often from women than men, but I’ve had both) or so tight/hard that my hand actually hurts after (I’ve also gotten these from both women and men, and I always feel like women who do this are trying a little too hard). Why the heck is it so hard to just firmly and politely grip and live and let live??? It is a handshake, people.
I also have mixed feelings on people not shaking hands while sick. On the one hand, I appreciate the thought in theory that they don’t want to get me sick, but on the other, I probably don’t have much more chance of getting sick from their handshake than I do from opening the door they just touched, riding the subway, getting in a crowded elevator, meeting with a parent who has been in a daycare that morning, etc. etc. I had a meeting recently with the head of a fairly successful, mid size firm and he fist-bumped me when I reached out for a handshake because he didn’t want to get me sick. Very mixed feelings, especially since I feel I would have been considered weird if I had been the one to initiate fist bumpage.
mamabear
Oh, I do the handshake-avoidance thing when I’m sick. If someone reaches to shake my hand, I raise my right hand up as if I’m waving and say, “I don’t want to get you sick. Sorry!” Usually people thank me. Frump, if the guy in your meeting had done that, would you still have been offended? (earnest question)
This hands-spread-germs habit is deeply ingrained in me after caring for two loved ones going through chemo.
Frump
Hard to know! As I said, I have mixed feelings on the issue. If he had been visibly sneezing/carrying around a tissue/dribbling all over himself/etc., maybe I would have picked up on it, but he seemed fine (and wasn’t even carrying tissues), so I sort of thought it was a bit of overkill (especially considering if his hands were really that germy, wouldn’t the germs have transferred to me on the fist bump??). I also felt that given how formal of a person he was, I probably would have been viewed weirdly if I had been the one fist bumping and that bothered me too in principle. AND, as I said, I feel there are just so many dirty gross things and germs in the world that to worry too much about touching the hand of somebody with a cold is seeing the forest a bit too much for the trees. If I were that afraid of germs, I should probably not take the subway to work. I don’t know!!
Also, to be fair, I feel that touching an immuno-compromised cancer patient is way different than shaking hands with somebody who may be at the tail end of a cold/not contageous anymore/worrying a little too much given how germy the world is.
M-C
Just because someone looks fine to you doesn’t mean they are. I have the misfortune of looking bursting with rosey health even when just woken from major surgery for instance. Besides, just because the person looks OK today doesn’t mean they haven’t spend the last week in bed with the nastiest flu of their life, and are just trying to avoid passing that one on. You may also personally be fine about being sick, but your kid or your colleague may not. Many people you can’t detect by eye would appreciate if you didn’t slip them your germs (I get bad asthma even from a simple cold), and if you don’t care if they do you still have no cause to get actually offended.
CA Atty
I think you should absolutely handshake avoid when sick. I can’t tell you the number of people (clients usually so I can’t yell at them!) who will shake my hand, then reach into their pocket for a wad of grimy tissue and say something along the lines of “sorry, I’m just so sick and haven’t been able to kick this cold!” I always end up looking sadly at my hand like I can see the germs running up my arm to get into me. I actually kept an industrial sized jar of hand sanitizer on my desk for just that purpose, if we were meeting in my office I would say something like, “oh, I have just the thing!” And then take a pump or 3.
ruby
WHY would anyone be mixed on this? there is no one at all who wants your illness. don’t shake. seriously.
Frump
I think because sometimes it’s hard to know if the person is actually sick or is just being strangely squeemish. I feel that unless you’re visibly sneezing/oozing/carrying around messy tissues (in which case, maybe you should not be at work if you are that ill), it’s hard to know if you’re refusing to shake my hand because you really are contageous (again, maybe you should be home then…) or you’re just a strange germophobe and shaking my hand poses no greater risk than me being out in the world.
Frump
Oh, also. I think I am mixed because if you’re SO sick and contageous that touching my hand briefly gives me a high chance of getting ill, I feel you are sick enough adn contageous enough to warrant staying home, because probably you being in the same room with me and breathing on me poses a lot more risk to me (especially since a lot of pathogens are transmitted through breath/air vs. touch).
Again, for me it’s about not seeing the forest for the trees… you are so concerned about being contageous and not shaking my hand, but apparently you are not concerned enough to cancel meetings, stay home, or avoid other contact with people that is just as likely to get them sick.
Ruby
I also think they should stay home. But people feel pressured to come in by their workplace culture. I stay home a lot if I have a cold and about half my team models this; the other team comes in hacking. And we shame them- we avoid them by not going in their office, not sitting next to them at meetings. The worst for me was a few months ago while pregnant and in middle of miscarriage scare, lady comes to big business meeting with bunch of companies present, with a major lung infection. As presenter (I was running the day) she had to sit next to me. I quietly moved all of my things and switched to the ‘other’ front of the room area. And will never seek to do business with her again. You may not realize the people sitting next to you have immune system issues; I can’t take many meds including lots of antibiotics while pregnant. She could. It didn’t occur to her she could be literally risking others’ lives. But even just best case, nobody wants to be burdened with a nasty cold for the next week.
Until work cultures change more, we are stuck avoiding the ill, not just handshakes, but maintaining that few feet of distance of they insist on being present.
BB
I absolutely refuse to shake hands when I’m sick. It’s the courteous thing to do. But then again, I also cancel all non-essential meetings and try to work from home if I’m spewing germs. Although I don’t know if I think a fist bump would do it. I prefer to avoid all physical contact and try to steer well clear of people’s breathing space. Personally, I would prefer a lot more “overkill” on the part of co-workers and relatives who have even the slightest change of being contagious. I’m so sick and tired of catching viruses at work….
eek
An exploding fist bump would’ve been awesome. I’m not sure why that person felt compelled to do a fist bump in lieu of handshake.
Seattleite
I am chronically immuno-compromised (not cancer), and I don’t want to explain why to every Tom, Dick, and Mary. So I will frequently tell himmer I don’t want to get himmer sick. I’ve been accused of being germ-o-phobic more than once, back in the days when I explained that *I* was vulnerable. I wish people would just accept that sometimes others don’t want to shake hands, without getting all judgey about it.
Anna D.
I’ll admit that I find the “can’t shake hands, I’m sick” thing a bit odd, I think because of what someone mentioned below – if you’re contagious enough not to shake hands, why are you at work? (I realize there are finer distinctions going on, that’s just my gut reaction.) That said, though, I think it’s also because I’ve been blessed with a really great constitution and I almost never get sick* – so I just don’t think about germs much; I don’t use hand sanitizer, I don’t care about touching bathroom doors, that kind of thing. But my mom once got a really bad cold that lasted about 3 weeks from a friend who showed up for dinner snuffling and dripping and wheezing, and she was really angry that he hadn’t stayed home (also my mom is in her 70s and has some respiratory issues). So I try to remember that other people have different attitudes than I do about this.
M-C
Wow, and I thought lawyers had to work a lot… I’ve never had a job where it was OK to take off just because I was sick. The only way I can get a couple days to get back on my feet is to come in and drag around in a daze, spend my day ostentatiously doing nothing but making tea, and preferably cough all over the boss’ keyboard. And that’s the good jobs, where I may have both insurance and sick leave. Haven’t had one of those in a decade actually, as millions of other Americans..
mamabear
Huh. I’ve experienced plenty of sexism in my 25+ year career, but really have never noticed getting a limp handshake from men. Now women, on the other hand, offer limp hands all the time, and I can’t stand it.
Anyway, if a man is treating you as a frail little thing with a gentle handshake, you can signal to him that you can take it by giving him an extra-firm shake in return.
And I kind of like it when men let me off the elevator first, though I don’t expect it. Go ahead. Shoot me.
Amelia Bedelia
me too!!!
Godzilla
Ha, engineers have varying amounts of manners, so I never know if they’re going to hold the door or elevator for me, or expect me to go first. Cue awkward situations where we bump into each other to exit.
I typically put my hand out, so I get a good grip and deliver a firm handshake. But some of the blue-collar guys have such beefy hands, I literally cannot wrap my hand around theirs. So they wind up shaking my fingers, which makes me laugh inside, like I’m a dainty lady.
eek
you’re a delicate flower, Godzilla!
karenpadi
Ah engineers. They really run the gamut of oblivious to chivalrous. I work with engineers and end up going on dates with engineers. Some are very kind, even getting the door for me “because I’ve heard it’s hard to open doors wearing heels” (well, yes, it can be, thank you!).
Others, grrr. I went bowling with an engineer who had his gear in a nice little bowling bag but I was carrying my clutch, my rental shoes, and a 10-pound ball across the bowling alley. He was oblivious to my difficulty and didn’t even compliment my mad juggling skills. :-)
Actually, in the Silicon Valley, I’m noticing less handshaking than even a few years ago. It’s more passing business cards, waving, and nodding. Anyone else?
mamabear
My first husband was an Electrical Engineer. You know what they say – you can’t spell “geek” without double-e’s.
TechAnon
I love engineers, especially for dating purposes. They are often so…grateful.
Flirt with an engineer. Make his day.
M-C
BS. Don’t think engineers aren’t smart enough to know you’re thinking of their stock options..
JK
I hate the limp handshake thing. It’s happened to me on a few occasions and it always just makes me feel awkward. I love the elevator thing, on the other hand. I grew up in the North and never experienced this, but now that I live in the South I enjoy that men will let you get on and off the elevator first. Like Kat said, you get to get on your way faster!
Lionheart
Limp shakers get a firm handshake from me with an extra shake to reverb up their forearm.
In contrast I am flattered when guys open the door, allow me to go first when crossing a threshold. It means they’ve acknowledged that I’m a lady and they’re acting like a gentleman, just like their parents raised them to behave. I usually smile and thank them, just like my parents raised me to act. Extending courtesy is not sexist in my opinion it’s an effort to be polite. Polite is one element of a smooth social interaction and overall civil community. Something I don’t mind spending and 45 seconds to exit a elevator first.
An extreme example of “efficiency” would mean we could shove children out of the way who are walking slowly down a crowded sidewalk because they are slowing up the flow of foot traffic. However that would not make for a smooth social interaction nor a civil community. I believe it’s better to take the responsibility of planning enough transit time, weave your way down the sidewalk and smile at people who bother to meet your eye.
Amelia Bedelia
agree. 100%
PCV
Being expected to walk through the door first has been throwing me for a loop lately (I’m teaching English in a developing country). It’s very thoroughly ingrained in the children that teachers MUST cross any threshold first. I’m used to kids being, well, kids, and they are–until they get to a doorway. They’ll be horsing around all the way up to the door or gate (usually in front of me) and then it’s a dead stop. So I instinctively wait for them to go first, since it seems like their rambunctious energy should propel them through, and we do the awkward, “You go!” “No, you go!” They always always win, and then look at me like I have two heads.
Cultural integration is hard when you have to change what seems like every little instinctual thing you do.
law talking girl
That’s adorable.
Lawlala
I hate when I am the first at the door and I open it and hold it for whoever is right behind me and they say: “No no, go ahead.” and then I have to walk through the door and hold it open from the inside which is much more complicated.
Equity's Darling
Okay, I actually love the door-opening and elevator holding. It’s very common in my city, and it’s the best. When I go home to visit my parents, I’m now insulted when men push in front of me to get into the elevator, and I’m training my little brother to hold doors and elevators for ladies. I feel like it’s good manners. And I am quick like a bunny, so no problems here with being trapped in the back of an elevator.
The limp handshake is indeed insulting. I love when a man gives me a good handshake, it instantly makes me more attracted to him….maybe we should tell them we like the firm handshake for that reason, and we’d be saved from dead fish handshakes.
kim
Of course I hate the limp handshake, but it is a nod to the fact that many men unnecessarily give each other bone crushers in some sick display of power, and that women don’t particularly want to engage in that. I always give a strong one back.
On a related note of not hating all chivalrous gestures, I’m obviously very preggers, and the only people who have given up a seat for me (twice) on the metro are women!
Diana Barry
When I took the T to work, I found the same thing. No one would give up their seat except other women.
I hate the elevator thing. Just get out if you are in front and let the people in the back get out (while you hold the door) and then get back in. I don’t want to wriggle around you *in* the elevator!!!
Frustrated Academic
The other morning when a pregnant woman got on the train an African-American teenager and I immediately offered her our seats…meanwhile all the men looked ever more deeply into their papers.
AIMS
I was on a crowded bus recently and this older woman (70s) was basically telling random young men to give up their seats for women who were standing. She was sitting, of course. But she turned to two young men sitting near her and said, ‘what are you doing sitting down? Don’t you see that woman standing?’ Then, when one got up, and another woman got on, she made the other guy who stayed seated get up as well. It was surprisingly effective. She also made a loud phone talker get off his cell phone by pointing out to him that the bus wasn’t his office. She was a kick ass lady. It made me think that I will have something besides wearing snazzy red suits to do in my “old age.”
Blonde Lawyer
I love this!
TechAnon
As my hair gets more and more gray, I look forward to being a bossy old lady on public transit. A couple years ago I yelled at a teen boy who was flipping old CDs across the lightrail train platform. “Hey! I live in this neighborhood, and I don’t want to see your trash all over the place. Pick those up!” Surprisingly, he did.
Get. Off. My. Lawn!
Seattleite
I was that old lady when I reamed out some young men who were throwing F-bombs at the top of their lungs from a ski lift. They were 150+ feet away (and 50 feet up) but they yielded to my authority. I was shocked. Amazing who people will obey if you just act like you have the right to boss them around.
AA
like! someday I will be that lady. (I think before you’re 70 though it just gets you in trouble…)
ASuburbanLife
I find women do the limp handshake much, much more than men do and I HATE it!
A
I moved to the South from the Midwest and learned what I call the “elevator dance.” Men here practically dance around the elevator to make sure the women get on and off first, no matter how inefficient it is. I actually love it and just this morning was peeved when some guy jumped off the elevator ahead of me without holding the door for me (probably some Northern transplant).
But even in the very chivalrous South, I’ve never been given a limp handshake by a man, no matter how old and Southern (nor has any professional man attempted the kiss greeting. That would be really weird). I think Reader C is just encountering men with really wimpy handshakes.
AnonInfinity
I am also in the South, and the elevator dance amuses me, too. The one I hate is the move where he opens the door, but you’re coming too quickly, so you end up passing under his armpit. Ugh.
One of my favorite things is going somewhere with a group of younger male associates + older male partners. To show how amazing they are, the younger ones will try to be as chivalrous as possible (I guess to impress their bosses) and make a big show of opening every door, waiting until us ladies sit down at lunch and standing when we get up to go to the restroom. It is hilarious.
Last comment — I’ve never been given a limp handshake by a man, but I have encountered men who will introduce themselves and only shake hands with the men in the group (even if it means going in order down a line and then skipping me). I always shove my hand out toward them, look them in the eye, and say, “I am AnonInfinity LastName; it’s great to meet you” in the sweetest voice I can muster. They usually look at me for a second or two like, “Who is this?!” but will then eventually shake my hand. It’s only happened a couple of times, but it’s kind of fun to see them squirm.
ChiTown
I think I read somewhere that it’s actually considered improper for a man to initiate a handshake with a woman. If a man and woman are to shake hands, it’s only if the lady initiates it. I’m not saying this is ideal in a business setting, but some of these men who don’t shake hands or are hesitant then offer a weak handshake may have been raised that way. I try to keep that in mind and extend my hand first to give the green light that it’s OK to touch my hand. Of course, some of them may just be sexist or oblivious or rude, but even if that is the case at least you’re now shaking hands and YOU were the one to take charge, you know?
AnonInfinity
Yes, that’s true that some men are taught not to offer their hands to a woman, but I think that’s kind of a cop out at this point when there are lots of women who are clearly lawyers and who are shaking hands with everyone else in the room. I have actually never encountered a woman who’s a lawyer who had a problem with a man extending his hand to her.
My current boss once told me that he tries to maintain the conventions like opening doors, but that not shaking someone’s hand is now considered so rude that he offers his hand to both men and women. So, I do consider the men who choose to ignore this aspect of the changing culture to be rude.
H
I’m from the South, and it drives me CRAZY when men do the elevator dance. If you’re standing at the front of the crowded elevator near the doors, just get off when they open, dont awkwardly shuffle around and hold everyone up. The thing that really gets me is the smug looks they have on their faces a lot of time – like, look at me, I’m so chivalrous. My philosophy is, there are fundamental differences between men and women physically, and chivalry is something men do to even those differences. Like it’s chivalrous to help me lift my suitcase into the overhead compartment, but unneccesary to hold a door for me all the way across the lobby. I can open a door just as well as you! Phew! Now I have my rant for the day taken care of!
Totes McGotes
I’m really surprised how many people are saying they have only gotten bad handshakes from women. I get them from men all the time, and I am 5’10” and Very Much Present, so obviously not a delicate flower. I have an excellent handshake under any circumstance, but when I get a bad one I make sure to give some extra “rrr!”.
The absolute worst, though, is when I go in for a good handshake, and the guy closes in around my second knuckle, so he shakes my fingers and I am *blocked* (indignation!) from giving an effective handshake.
AnonInfinity
I think I should amend my statement. I’ve never received a limp handshake from man that I perceived as having some sort of gender bias behind it. I’ve gotten a few of those, but I always assume the man just doesn’t know how to shake hands properly with anyone.
TechAnon
Totes, I love your posts. And now that I know you are Very Much Present as well in your tallness, I have a great mental picture of you kicking @ss and taking names.
Totes McGotes
Hee! I can kick really high, too!
Woods-comma-Elle
I’m ok by the door-holding, elevator thing, but I hate when at a business dinner, people want me to order first. I’m relatively junior and you don’t always know whether starters etc are acceptable, whether other people are drinking alcohol etc. so I would rather someone else went first! So I tend to say I’m not ready and offer the other person to go ahead. Sometimes that backfires and they sent the waiter/waitress away.
me too!
THANK YOU, Woods-comma-Elle, I’m so glad to know I’m not the only one who has this issue. I talked to my dad about it, and he didn’t have any advice, other than requesting to go last or doing the general, “Soo…. who’s been here before? What do you normally order?” Unfortunately, when I’ve tried this tactic, I usually get, “Oh everything is great!” Sigh… you’re not getting it. I’m not too stupid to order off a menu at a nice restaurant, I’m trying to figure out the length and price-point of the meal. Are we doing drinks and steaks and sitting for 3 hours at $100 a head, or $12 burgers and a 30 minute all-business meeting? They also insist that I walk in first, which is awkward when the waitress asks about our party size. Since I’m not the one who organized the outing, I have no idea if we have a reservation, party size, if we’re all here, etc. etc. I can’t wait to be more senior!
Former MidLevel
Me, three. Sometimes I would get away with “I need one more second – let me order last,” but I never really felt like that was a foolproof solution.
TNT
I tend to do the following to the people around me. “Wow, great menu, I’m torn. What do you think you’re going to have?” It starts a conversation and gives you an idea that at least you won’t be alone. Regarding drinks, I always go with something grown up but safe like sparkling water or some specialty non-alcoholic drink on the menu, but if it becomes apparent that everyone else is drinking, I’ll wait till they get to the end, and snag the waiter, then pick something someone else chose …saying that sounded good, I’d like to change my order.
ruby
you can also ask your colleagues in advance what the m.o. will be.
TCFKAG
This is the ONLY situation where I’ll play a little “oh I’m so silly, I just can’t decide. You guys go first” — and if they say, oh well we can just wait “oh no…I’ll never decide, just go ahead and order” or something like that.
Since I do this almost every time I go out for a meal, no matter whom I’m with, I have lots of practice. But seriously, I agree.
JenM
Hate the limp handshake. I usually “respond” with a firm one. Accompanied with a broad smile and a “nice to meet you” as applicable.
The other stuff – doors, elevators, etc. – I consider those manners. These gentlemen were taught to treat women in that manner, and I appreciate the effort. I don’t like it when I’m trying to teach my kids manners (calling adults Mrs. or Mr. or saying please and thank you) and an adult telling them “It’s okay, you don’t have to say please.” Irks me to no end – but that’s another topic for another day.
I figured, these folks have been taught by their parents or society to hold doors open for women, offer their seats to elderly/women/pregnant women, etc and it’s not my place to “correct” them unless it causes me undue stress or harm.
Ugh
I have a truly bizarre experience to report – a client actually got into a revolving door with me about a year ago! Not in next, actually in the little quarter space with me! It was so awkward. I could barely shuffle and turn the door to get out fast enough, and he was right up against my back shuffling with me. Ewwww. It still gives me the creeps.
CA Atty
Oh, I had a client who was explaining to me what he did to get suspended from work previously, he had lifted the back of a female juvenile in custody’s shirt to her mid-back to see if she was hiding something in the small of her back. In explaining this to me, he was walking next to me and reached back and lifted my suit jacket to shoulder height!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was so grossed out. He also touched my back both where he grabbed my jacket and where he pulled it up to, and pulled my shirt with it so a thin strip of my back showed! On a street in Santa Barbara!!!
Ugh, just thinking about it now makes me shudder.
JT
I did this to someone once in law school. I was running to class and not paying attention and just plowed on into the revolving door without thinking about the person in front of me. Bad enough, except that then my backpack jammed and the door couldn’t finish rotating. We all had to back up while I babbled a never-ending apology.
anon obvi
super late to the party on this one, but i did this once completely intentionally. i was working as a summer intern at a federal agency, along with another friend of mine from school, and every time we went in or out of the revolving door i wanted to jump in the same space with him, just because thought it would be funny. one day, i couldn’t resist any longer and just went for it and then completely panicked once i was in there because it was such a small space for two grown people. i am a spaz.
Circe
I also hate the limp handshake. I think door holding is just a politeness thing. I will hold the door for someone behind me or someone with their hands full, regardless of anyone’s gender, and I would expect the same from others. Is this not the case?
Pest
Let’s make a pact to teach our daughters how to shake hands before their first job interview.
scientist
I think we need to teach our sons, too. Stop limp hands of all people!
C
This! I am so excited that my suggestion was used on Corporette! It seems that many people have had the same expereince. I also pledge to teach both of my daughters how to shake hands correctly!
elz
I never thought men with limp handshakes were being polite-afraid to squish my poor little hand. I always assumed they had weak handshakes and probably thought a little less of them actually. I have a firm handshake. A handshake is one of of the initial ways you make a first impression, I’d rather somebody see me a strong and confident than wimpy!
Jem
I agree – I always just think it is them.
Susan
IME, when a man gives me a “limp” handshake, it’s not because he thinks he’s going to crush my tiny delicate little ladyhand with his giant bear-paw.
Usually, it is by some guy who either has gotten too many limp handshakes from women and has come to think that that’s the way women want to shake hands, or, occasionally, it really is a sexist tw@t who is annoyed (sometimes visibly) that he has to go through the formality of shaking hands with a woman and thus does it in a very perfunctory and limp fashion.
In those cases, I can see the way they assess the people in the room– their sexism is more an outgrowth of their just being generally sh*tty people. They are often also weighing all the people in the room (men and women alike) for their political importance to determine who to suck up to. They’ve just decided that the women aren’t important enough.
Anon in SF
I’m have put some money aside, and decided to get a splurge work bag for spring. I want something neutral and classic, but not white. I think I have settled on this Marc Jacobs bag (I’ll post the link in a reply to avoid moderation). I have a black MJ bag that has held up exceptionally well, and this one is slightly less expensive than Chloe, etc. I checked it out in person, and it does not seem like the leather would be likely to scuff or discolor.
I sort of perfer this dome shaped version, (again, see link in reply) but the handles are not long enough to go over my shoulder, and I don’t know if it’s the best shape if I need to carry papers.
Ladies, what do we think?
Anon in SF
Hmm, links seemingly stuck in moderation. Trying again.
http://www.mytheresa.com/us_en/perry-textured-leather-tote.html?siteID=Hy3bqNL2jtQ-gXWtg8qprDc6iVIp8H.slg&quid=61058463421S1091658T&gkid=acx&utm_source=Affilate&utm_medium=INT&utm_campaign=2
Domed bag:
http://www.pret-a-beaute.com/MARC-JACOBS-THE-CROSBY-Bowery-Taupe-Tote-Bag_p-328294.aspx
4th Year Female
I’m a 4th year associate at a small firm in the south. We once had a summer associate who would pull out my chair for me at a business lunch. While I appreciated his genteel southern manners, I had to pull him aside and let him know it wasn’t appropriate in a business setting. I was his boss, not his date.
Kay
I’m also a fourth year associate in the south. First female attorney in the firm. The partner I recently started working for does this at business lunches! He also opens the car door for me, etc. I have yet to figure out how to get it across to him that it is inappropriate.
karenpadi
The partner I work with did that to me last week. When we arrived, I raced out of the car and, when we returned to the car, raced to the passenger door and put my hand on the handle, basically cutting him off.
It worked. This time.
Mrs. Piggle Wiggle
This. Ha!
Gwennellen
I too work in a male dominated field, and what really knaws at me is men making small talk with me by mentioning their wives, especially ones who are at home mothers. Im here with them, what are they thinking, like I have a cake baking in my office or something?
Susan
It is odd, no?
But I think they do it as a way of saying, “look, don’t worry, I’m taken/married, so please don’t think I’m hitting on you, I’m just making friendly small-talk.” Only truly smarmy people can talk about their wives while hitting on some other woman.
Unfortunately, their doing this (if they’re not smarmy) can across as: “OMG, you are a woman. I can’t talk to you about anything or relate to you and I won’t even bother to try. So I’ll just bring up my wife, because you women only want to hear about other women, right?”
Samantha
This – IMO it’s a way of signaling.
me too!
I’m the official “take the wives around the tradeshow floor” person. “Fortunately”, my bosses and colleagues are too focused on how silly social media is to worry about talking to me about their wives. (Seriously, I know I’m young but I don’t “Twitter” this or “Twat” that every time I’m sitting in a business meeting!)
karenpadi
I work with mostly men too but I kind of like hanging out with the wives at firm functions. All the men in my office are married and all the women (except 1 but her husband doesn’t come to events) are single. I think it can be intimidating for the wives to be meeting so many people at once. Plus, I think all of the guys at my office married “up”.
It’s actually helped me with some of the guys who don’t normally talk to the women in the office. After meeting some of the guys’ wives, those guys have been more open about stopping by my office or seem a little less nervous about talking to me. Of course, YMMV.
Susan
I’m with you on this. There’s this industry conference I go to, where all the wives of the 90% male attendees seem to get relegated to certain rooms and certain activities.
It can be nice to chat with the wives. I like that they have a different perspective (most are my mother’s age) because of their life choices and I’m a big believer in intergenerational friendships.
And yes– once a guy knows that his wife has put me on the “approved list”– he’s usually much more relaxed around me, and it makes for much easier and less awkward networking.
s
Is there any actual benefit to ABA membership? My membership is expiring TOMORROW (I have been getting “warning” notices of this for the past 3 months–if they put half as much effort into accrediting/regulating schools and protecting the profession as they did recruiting my membership dues, I would appreciate it more.) the only thing I feel like I’m “getting” out of it is the monthly magazine that I always mean to read, but am too busy. I’m sure that there are people (better than me) who have the time and gumption to really throw themselves into ABA committees and article-writing and make better use of their membership than me–more power to you!
Our firm just stopped paying the ABA dues, and so I’d be paying the dues. They’re a little salty–especially in conjuntion with my huge student loan payments–and I’m inclined to just drop it. Then, I wonder if there is some hidden benefit that I’m not aware of. Thoughts?
Former MidLevel
I dropped out as soon as my firm stopped paying my dues. In my area of specialization, I never really saw the benefit – I chose to spend my time and money on more focused and more local groups.
CA Atty
I have not found a benefit and I would not pay for membership myself. I think my old firm paid, but I got a few renewal notices at one point and just ignored them. Now if they ever started doing work I could believe in…? That’s another issue, but when the president so out of touch he victim blames by saying:
“It’s inconceivable to me that someone with a college education, or a graduate-level education, would not know before deciding to go to law school that the economy has declined over the last several years and that the job market out there is not as opportune as it might have been five, six, seven, eight years ago.”
Um, hello? YOU let law schools get away with playing all the games they do with numbers and inflating their employment numbers, then you blame all the folks who went to law school after researching and relying on those numbers?
Not to mention, speaking of student loans, how much has tuition gone up over the past 10 years? Something like 600x inflation? And WHY???
So yeah, no thanks. I’ll put that money towards the student loans that ended up much higher than expected since my LS raised tuition 25% between my first and second year.
Awesome.
s
word.
CLE?
Just discovered that they have a 1.5-hour CLE that is free to members each month. I don’t know if you have a CLE obligation or if your firm provides opportunities, but that’s 18 hours a year as long as you don’t mind random and/or boring-to-you topics.
There’s also some discounts (I know with a car rental company, for example), but I just joined recently and have not explored this at all.
CA Atty
Is it in person though? You can usually find lots of free/reasonably priced CLEs to do self study, but you can only have so many hours of that (I should remember this, it’s my year to certify!). My firm provides both in house and pays for external, so I don’t sweat that.
(Although I was tempted to get some annual pass thing at the end of the year because they were giving out a kindle fire or something like that with it. But that wasn’t ABA, so it’s totally irrelevant.)
CLE?
My state distinguishes between live and self-study, and the ABA live webinars count as live, which is what the “free” ones are. I am a relatively new admit to this bar (my other bar membership carries no CLE requirement), and I was freaking out a little about how I’m going to get the CLEs–my employer does not provide any, I’m out-of-state, and the ABA ones seem like they are $100+ per hour, so finding out that I can get 18 hours a year of in-person (more than I need) through my ABA membership makes it seem more manageable.
karenpadi
I dropped the ABA and joined the AIPLA. I’m a patent lawyer so I work as a patent “creator”. I noticed that their IP/Patent Law section and lobbying activities were biased more towards patent litigation and patent “destroyers”.
Catelyn
I dropped the ABA and joined a bar group that was focused on my industry. I find it’s much better for networking, putting on events I’d actually want to go to, and it’s cheaper. And they don’t send me 1000s of emails and letters all the time like ABA did.
Amy H.
My local bar association is far, far more useful than ABA, so I dropped ABA membership. My practice area section within the local bar puts on regular CLE classes and seminars that are well-attended by local attorneys in this area (they’re also usually very informative) so I make sure to keep up the section membership as well as the local association dues. Section membership ends up paying for itself because the CLE sessions are discounted for section members.
TNT
Advice on the elevator thing. If I know they’re going to insist that I get on *and* off first, as soon as I enter, I step to one side of the elevator (usually the side away from the buttons). That way other people can enter past me and I’m still close enough to the front to beat a hasty exit.
The button thing, is because if I end up on that side I feel like the elevator bell boy at a fancy hotel or a button crazed toddler going “which floor”? It’s more awkward when you’re the first one on because then you wind up having to hit the button for *everyone*.
Sutemi
As a general practice I choose the side with the buttons for my safety. If you are on an elevator with someone who you feel is sketchy or who starts acting aggressively you want to be able to get off immediately or press the emergency call button.
Pest
This example is from lawschool, but it still makes me laugh a little when I remember it. It was the beginning of my 2L year and I arrived for my first office hours at my journal. I introduced myself to the other 2L who happened to sign up for the same office hours and started making normal small talk. One of the first things that he said to me was that he was married and very involved in his church. I had to explain to him that I was just making conversation and was not flirting with him. Mysteriously, he did not show up for any subsequent office hours.
30
Oh my. This (sadly) reminds me a bit of an ex of mine who was worried about me going to law school because I would be working so closely with other men…ugh.
Lyssa
Heh, I got a Mustang when they first came out with the newer models (in 2005). I was bragging on it at work (I’ve always been a fan) and the fellow in the cube next to me commented that if he were married he would never let his wife get a Mustang, because that would attract too much attention from other men.
Come to think of it, I did get a good amount of attention, but I don’t think it ever occurred to my husband to be bothered by it. :)
onna
“never LET his wife/her husband” – I really dislike that phrase. Like being married gives you control over what another person does. (Yes, I realize it kind of does, but still…)
rosie
I hate it, too, especially when someone jokes, “Oh, your wife lets you meet up with the guys/relax on Saturday/whatever.” If my husband needed my permission to do things or vice versa, we both would have a problem.
Amelia Bedelia
I don’t know. I use this both ways. I always thought it showed that you really cared about what your spouse thought?
my husband and I each say it . . . he/she would never “let” me ____. and we say it jokingly. maybe that is the difference?
I kind of feel like we do belong to each other and we should consult each other . . .
Lyssa
I agree with Amelia, generally. I doubt that this guy actually would have restrained his wife from driving a certain type of car, but I admit that I was somewhat glad that I was not married to him, too. (I feel like I’m making him out to be a jerk, when he really wasn’t – we were work friends, I just wouldn’t want to be married to him.) But I think that most people use it as short hand for “My spouse wouldn’t like that and it’s not important enough to me to go against his/her wishes.” – which is generally something that’s part of a good and healthy relationship.
That said, when I was in high school, I was a bit of a goody-two-shoes (no drinking/smoking/drugs), and I dated a real good ol’ boy who was a bit less goody-good. Although I didn’t try to hide my disapproval of certain things, I never once said anything like “you are not allowed to X while we’re dating.” Still, he would tell people ALL the time “She won’t let me do that.” I really think that he somehow enjoyed this idea that he was a “wild guy” but had met a women who “tamed him.” Silly, but true (and the plot of oh so many country songs).
ADL
Put me firmly in the hate the limp handshake category. But it comes from both men and women. I usually stick my hand out first, as the person is approaching me, so that they know a handshake is forthcoming.
But, as a southerner, I’m firmly in the camp of men opening doors for women and waiting for women to get off the elevator first. I know what I expect, so I always make the first move – for both – and then some unsuspecting northerner (generalization for conversation’s sake) runs into me because he didn’t know.
Monday
I can’t remember the last time I shook anyone’s hand. Didn’t think of it at all until this post…
karenpadi
I’ve noticed this too in the Silicon Valley among techie-types. Waves and nods are more common.
AIMS
I should move to Silicon Valley or shift to academia, then! I hate shaking hands. In part, because a limp handshake is just so awkward … or you get the sweaty palm which is just gross. I don’t enjoy kissing strangers on the cheek either. All in all, I think I would like a business nod. Maybe a Japanese type bow…
Lilybet
I do not like all this “gentlemanly” holding of doors and shuffling around in elevators. Before the door-holding and elevator shuffling, we’re all interacting as equal, neutral citizens of the world, going about our business. If you have a package or a toddler, I’ll hold the door; if I have a package or a broken ankle, you’ll hold the door. But after all the gendered door-holding and shuffling starts, then we’re no longer just citizens, then we must shout to the sky “look, a LADY is here, a LADY!” and our interaction becomes about foregrounding my gender. Regular people fend for themselves; ladies get “special” treatment, marking them as not-regular-people. Gendered treatment is all very well at the bar or on a date, but frankly my gender really should not be highlighted or foregrounded in my regular interactions at work.
Plus, I can’t help but feel that men who are very invested in being “gentleman” to my “lady” are more likely to be upset if I don’t conform to their ideas about gender. A man who makes a big fuss over my gender in a business or academic setting – or anywhere else where it’s inappropriate, the grocery store, the subway – is a man I am disinclined to trust.
And I’ve definitely noticed that I am more likely to be treated as oooh look a lady than, for example, the working class black women who are employed in the cafeteria. If they’re not going to be treated as ladies, then I certainly don’t want to be.
Esquirette
This 100%. I currently live in the South, and I hate how over-powering and oppressive gender roles (and class) are here.
Anna D.
Absolutely this! I think holding the door/elevator/whatever for those around you, when you get there first, or if the other person has a package or stroller or whatever, is just plain polite. It totally shouldn’t be gendered at all – everyone should do it for everyone.
M-C
Right on Lilibet!
BrieCS
I hate limp handshakes. I really, truly do. They make me feel like the person giving them, male or female, has no intent to form a relationship with me and like they’re wishy-washy. That’s just how I was raised. I occasionally have too strong of a handshake, but that’s from years of shaking the hands of blue-collar men.
I understand the reasoning behind not shaking hands when you’re sick, but aside from that, I think it’s a decent custom to follow. I also will accept high-fives, fist-bumps, finger-guns, and the Iron Guard Salute.
At gaming cons they’ve been moving away from handshakes and any body contact because of outbreaks of swine flu &etc., which I understand, but it’s just appalling that we have to worry about that.
On the subject of hugs at work: I have never really been opposed to them, personally. I grew up as a huggy person, but I don’t *expect* hugs and have only ever hugged a few people at work, people that I was close with. I don’t think there’s a problem with them so long as you know the person well enough to hug! I have often done the handshake-shoulderpat thing, though.
Both inside and outside of work, I gotta ask: what is up with girl hugs? The hugs where you stand like, two feet apart, bend at the waist, and do the hover-hand behind the person or just gently pat their shoulders? It’s freaking weird. I end up doing it just because the other person is doing it. It feels kind of creepy.
karenpadi
Ugh. Hugs at work. Not appropriate in Law. Maybe they are appropriate in more touchy-feely professions. But not law.
I work remotely to most of our paralegals and support staff so I know everyone by email but not in person. One of my most awkward moments in a professional setting was when I was visiting and one of them walked right up to me and hugged me. I think my body language was best described as “STRANGER DANGER!” And she held on. “What’s’ the status of that filing?” Me, panicked: “yes, first thing.” She held on. “Do you know what filing I’m talking about?” “It’s in my inbox, right?” She held on. “Do you even know who I am?” And she still held on. “Not really…” Finally, sweet blessed relief. Longest 15 seconds of my life.
BrieCS
I’m not in law, but not in a touchy-feely industry either (engineering, but I’m an admin), and as I said, only with people I know super well.
What happened there, to you, I would personally classify as inappropriate conduct and I would have reported it to a supervisor. Sorry, but that’s just really uncomfortable for anyone! It’s inappropriate, without a doubt.
karenpadi
Ah, but reporting someone never solves anything when they didn’t realize their behavior was wrong. This incident happened in front of a straight-talking Texan lawyer who came over to my workstation later that day to apologize for her and tell me that he explained to her that the hug made me uncomfortable. She is familiar with this attorney and looks up to him so I don’t think she’ll do it again.
Another witness did report it to HR and I was able to say “Honestly, it was a shock but not a big deal. B explained that C feels really sorry about making me uncomfortable. I enjoy working with C and I don’t want to add any awkwardness to our professional relationship.” I heard HR breathe a sigh of relief.
Now that I know “hugs” might happen, I’ll be more mentally prepared to walk out of a hug with a loud “excuse me” if it happens again. I think that’s actually the professional thing to do in this situation.
BrieCS
I don’t mean to be rude, but:
“Ah, but reporting someone never solves anything when they didn’t realize their behavior was wrong.”
There is no way for someone to learn what they did was wrong without them being made aware. You don’t have to get them fired, but if you communicate it to them and they don’t get it, reporting it is the appropriate thing. Not reporting it is how workplace harassment gets through the cracks every day.
karenpadi
BrieCS, that’s how I used to think that early in my career. Then I worked in a firm of creepy old men and moved to a firm where I worked under a bully.
I guess I’ve just witnessed too much retaliation against, and isolation of, people who report every incident. I think it’s best if someone (or multiple someones) reports an incident for me–either formally or informally (HR folks actually do hear a lot of stuff you think they don’t know). Then someone else thought that it was a report-level offense and I don’t come off as a “problem”. HR also knows that I’m not going to cry wolf. Then, I can report abuses of other people that I witness and be taken seriously.
Further, by not reporting it myself, my working relationship with C was preserved. She knows she made me uncomfortable, she won’t do it again (because she knows and respects B), and she knows I’m not “out to get her” for what was [probably] a cultural misunderstanding. I was also able to impress B with my cool-headed handling of an uncomfortable situation.
Latina
A male coworker and I ran into a colleague one day walking down the street. As we walked away my coworker said something along the lines of “he will never get anywhere with that weak handshake.” I laughed and told him that I thought he was only going limp on me. He told me that it is pretty common for men to have weak handshakes with each other! I was shocked. The funny part was that he was able to tell me every colleague of ours that has ever given him a limp handshake. He was in line with my experiences.
Amy H.
Happily, I haven’t experienced very many limp handshakes from men or women. I have had men (only men) comment on/compliment me on my strong handshake, though! I think having a firm handshake as a woman attorney helps clients feel confidence in us — and helps in having opposing counsel respect us. Never more so than when I was practicing as a litigator.
dancinglonghorn
I have a dissenting opinion. I have lived in Texas for 10 years. When I moved to Seattle, I noticed that I HATE it when men offer their hands for a handshake first. Men should never offer their hand first – they should always wait for the woman to extend her hand. This majorly bothers me even though I don’t know why.
I just feel so cornered when a man offers his hand. It reminds me of a quote from North and South where the girl complains about how affronted and put on the spot she was when a man wanted to shake her hand. I don’t shake with woman either.
Obviously I have a very different opinion…
Esquirette
It may help you to acclimatize by considering the man who is offering his hand to you as a person first (rather than a man) and one who is reaching out to shake your hand to be polite and out of respect for you as a person (not a woman). As a professional in a Northern state, professional circumstances where men don’t introduce themselves and offer to shake hands is something to be concerned about.
Trezlen
I can’t stand a limp handshake–especially from guys. For some reason I assume, perhaps wrongly, that not all women have been taught how to give a proper handshake. If it’s someone I know I quickly “school” them. Same if it’s a younger guy that I know. Otherwise, when I get the wet noodles, I try to maintain poker face while I throw up a little in my mouth.