Tuesday’s TPS Report: Bromely Blazer

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Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. I love this blazer. The ivory color seems just right, as does the tweed-like piping on the edges, the (flattering!) patch pockets, and the bracelet-length sleeves. Gorgeous, gorgeous. I would pair this with a simple, solid-colored tank or tee, and perhaps a brightly colored skirt. It's $495 at Barneys New York. Rag & Bone Bromely Blazer Seen a great piece you'd like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com. (L-2)

Sales of note for 2/14/25 (Happy Valentine's Day!):

  • Nordstrom – Winter Sale, up to 60% off! 7850 new markdowns for women
  • M.M.LaFleur – Save up to 25% on select suiting, this weekend only
  • Ann Taylor – Up to 40% off your full-price purchase — and extra 60% off sale
  • Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + 15% off (readers love their suiting as well as their silky shirts like this one)
  • Boden – 15% off new season styles
  • Eloquii – 300+ styles $25 and up
  • J.Crew – 40% of your purchase – prices as marked
  • J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site and storewide + extra 50% off clearance
  • Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 40% off last-chance styles
  • Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
  • Talbots – Flash sale ending soon – markdowns starting from $15, extra 70% off all other markdowns (final sale)

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

381 Comments

  1. This is cute, but the trousers are really incongruous with the jacket and I feel like they make me like the jacket less… although I love the turquoise!

    1. Those trousers are unfortunate. I sometimes wonder what these stylists are thinking for these shoots. When they pair these things with such ridiculous items, it makes me worry that they CAN’T be paired with normal work items (or that I, a non-professional stylist, would have trouble pairing it)…but then I realize that I don’t feel the relentless drive to be “original” in my pairings. So I’m reassured.

      1. I so agree! The manageing partner would be OGGLEING my body if I wore this! FOOEY on him.

  2. Oh, I like it. Not in my price range, though. I might have to find something similar.

    Does anyone else feel weird the first day without tights? I feel like I went to work half naked :)

    I’m getting the “posting too fast” error although I didn’t even post anything, yet.

    1. Yeah I tried no tights last week and felt really weird. Despite the 80 something degree weather, I’m wearing tights today. Of course, indoors in the south it’s always cold.

      1. I did tights yesterday, but I’m tightless today.

        I’m out there Jerry and I’m loving every minute of it.

        1. That was an awesome reference.

          I’m tightless and feeling totally naked and weird! Not as bad as the first time I go out in a tank top (not to work, just out of my house in the summer!).

          My legs are perma-pale…I just got over it. (Well, that plus the occasional self-tanner lotion as we discussed last week.)

      2. Usually it’s cold in the office, but they are working on our HVAC system and it’s in the 80s inside as well.

      3. I have tights on today … I need to wait a few days for my jergens sunless tanner lotion to kick in before I bare all!

    2. It is getting very warm so my skirts are more flow-y but I still cannot ditch the tights.
      I simply moved to 8 denier hosiery which is very light.

      1. I can’t ditch my tights either. My legs look awful right now. I usually wait for a warm weekend to get some sun before I go bare legged at work.

    3. Yes! I skipped tights Sunday and Monday and it felt both awesome and weird. This morning was a bit foggy and chilly so I’m back in tights (plus I may or may not have been too tired to shave my legs last night..whoops). It feels so normal after so many months of being encased!

    4. I have a bin by the washing machine and have started putting the tights away with the winter clothes.

    5. I’m wearing sheer hose! I can’t not wear stockings of some sort unless it’s really so hot that I would melt.

    6. My first bare-legged day was last week, agree that it felt super scandalous! Today I’m both bare-legged and wearing cut-out peep toes, so I feel like I’m channeling my inner Wh*re of Babylon.

    7. I haven’t gone tightless yet, but I’ve been wearing more open weave tights. Today I have cream lace tights (my office is business casual), last week it was more of a mini fishnet, but not diamond shaped – more hexagonal (black). I’m not describing them well. I’ve worn them over colored tights in the winter, and it looks really cool, but last week I wore them on their own.

      I can’t wait to go bare legged again! However, according to the forecast, I don’t think it will happen this week.

    8. Are people packing up their winter clothes? I’m still convinced we’re going to get hit with a late cold spell so I’m reluctant to start doing the winter/spring clothes transition. Ugh. #firstworldproblems

      1. I plan on 1) buying some sandals, and 2) putting away winter clothes this weekend, so if you live in the DC area, yes, there will probably be a cold spell once I have completed these action.

    9. Ummm, it’s -5C here still, and it’s supposed to snow on Thursday.

      I’ll be going tightless sometime in oh…mid-May.

    1. Good luck! I’m a total waste the week of an interview because I’m so excited (and then I’m a waste the week after hoping to hear back).

    1. Gasp, lovely and affordable! I super love the teal in the jacket Kat posted, but I think I can sacrifice the teal for the $300 savings. Because I’m cheap… anyone know when the next Boden sale is coming up?

      1. I like the Boden blazer a lot and had been looking at it for a while now, but I’m afraid the jacket Kat posted made me go in the opposite direction. Now that I’ve seen this one, I don’t want the Boden blazer anymore. Eh, I’m not going to spend $495 on a jacket, so I suppose the post saved me the price of the Boden one.

    2. Lovely jacket!
      I just noticed some nice wedge sandals onnBoden website. Anyone have any experience with Bodensee shoes?

      1. I have a pair of adorable wedges from last year and they are very nice quality, although they’re a bit narrow for me so I don’t wear them very often.

  3. Early TJ- I work in an environment where a supervisor regularly goes to lunch with one of the people she supervises. She will occasionally ask other people to go with her, but I’d say 4 times out of 5, it’s just a given she will go out with this one individual. Does this happen at anyone else’s workplace? It makes most people here uncomfortable, as the lunchtime companion is known for trying to backstab everyone else when alone with the supervisor. It just seems wildly inappropriate to me.

    1. I see this as unprofessional from the supervisor. Even is she has a preference for one of her reports, she must make every effort to provide equal chances to everyone in her team.

    2. When I was working, the head of the department I was working for went to lunch regularly with one particular employees. They also would occasionally go shopping together in their lunch break (and even occasionally would get mani/pedi done). I always felt that this was unprofessional, even though the particular employee was not a back-stabber (actually she was very very nice). I, however, never felt that I could do anything about it. I was very junior and I had no intention of staying with the company for a long time. I am not sure what I would do in your situation. Has the supervisor changed her attitude towards anyone in the office based on things that the backstabbing employee may have said?

    3. at my previous job, my supervisor went ON VACATION with the person i supervised. Talk about uncomfortable. I did mention to my supervisor that everyone in our department felt that she favored this person and etc. Her response? “I cannot be concerned about the perception people have about my relationship with her. We don’t even go out for lunch!” Umm. whatever. During my exit interview, I told HR all about it and what a huge issue it was. Apparently they have tried to address it since I left.

    4. Totally unprofessional. At my last job my boss took the 2 other female employees out for lunch one day. I was not impressed. Especially when one of the other employees mentioned it to me as if I was invited too, and was surprised when I wasn’t. I’m glad I don’t work for her anymore! With my current manager – lunch is everyone or no one. And then there’s the case in my company where a manger regularly took one of his direct reports out for lunch, and they turned out to be having an affair (both married to other people). Neither of them work for us anymore.

    5. Yes – but the supervisor is my mother and the supervisee is me, so I’m thinking that’s a completely different situation that anything anyone else is talking about.

      Yes, I work with my mother, but we’re only in the same office 2 days a week, and use lunch to talk about (mostly) non-work stuff – so we don’t talk about while we’re actually working. It’s a pretty small office.

    6. Oh yes – my (female) supervisor has shown blatant preference/favoritism for certain of her (female) supervisees. She definitely has her favorites. Fortunately the favorites are not the back-stabbing type, but it’s still annoying. This supervisor has been reprimanded in the past for favoritism and, can we call it inappropriate fraternization outside of the military? She has had the two favorites come to her house to work on things, which I find very strange.

      One of the favorites has since left, but was the target of very weird behaviors on the part of the boss. The boss would be very demanding and then would “apologize” the next day by bringing little gifts. It reminded us of how an abusive boyfriend would act – really inappropriate behavior followed by gifts. I think if it had been a male boss and female employee, warning bells would go off a lot louder, but because it involved two females, it just seemed weird rather than creepy. Then again, when I tell people outside of my office about this, it does seem pretty creepy.

      1. I am guilty of having done this – although with no nefarious intentions!

        At a previous job, I became friendly with an intern because we had a lot in common at the time (I was very junior in the organization). After a while, I was promoted to a management position and later we hired the intern as a permanent employee, reporting to me. I still thought of her as my friend and would have lunch with her regularly. It dawned on me pretty quickly, though, that (1) this could be perceived as favoritism by the rest of my team, and (2) I couldn’t continue to be friends with someone who was my direct report because I wouldn’t be seen as an authority figure.

    7. In the context you describe, I think it’s unprofessional. In a context where the supervisor treats everyone equally and no one is perceived as being a backstabber, and the supervisor has a preexisting friendship with one member of her team, I don’t think it’s unprofessional.

    8. Thanks all for the comments. In this case part of the problem is that the lunch buddy seems to get away with doing a lot less work than everyone else. Everyone else is frustrated because we’re picking up the slack while the lunch buddy seems to sit back and do nothing all day.

  4. Love the jacket. Hate the pants.

    Does anyone out there have experience with beta blockers? I recently started them for hypertension, and I feel weird. Not unpleasantly weird, but tired and kind of foggy. I’m also worried about being able to exercise effectively on them ~ my heart rate has dropped a LOT (which is good because it used to be way too high). I don’t want to start gaining weight because I can’t have a good cardio workout any more.

    1. I don’t have any experience with beta blockers per se, so my first advice is that you should talk to your physician about exercise with them (I have no idea if there are any limitations on exercise while on them). But if your concern is just overall heart rate, the real goal in a cardio workout is the difference between resting heart rate and exercise heart rate, not necessarily how high you can push your heart rate. Plus, the best “fat burning” exercises are actually achieved when you keep your heart rate and effort in a consistent mid-range, rather than going for extreme spikes.

      So I guess the short of it is, don’t worry too much about absolute heart rate. On the other hand — if the beta blockers are making you too tired and foggy to exercise and that’s the problem, I’d talk to your doctor about maybe adjusting the dose or seeing if these are the types of side-effects that normally wear off.

      1. Eh, not to get completely off topic, but this “fat burning zone” is kind of a myth. Yes, you burn a higher *percentage* of fat in a lower HR zone, but you don’t actually burn more fat overall. [says the chick who is the queen of the long, slow run, but who is still pretty chubby]

        To the OP, everyone has a different, individual MaxHR – I don’t know anything about betablockers — but if they bring down your resting HR, then they might be impacting your MaxHR too. If you’re working out and you feel like you’re working hard, I wouldn’t worry about possibly getting an ineffective workout. I would talk to your doctor about this, though!

      2. Heh…sorry that was what I was trying to say. My point may have been lost in the shuffle.

        (And as a slow-person myself, maybe I’m just self-justifying).

    2. I’ve taken beta blockers and they made me very dizzy, to the point going up and down stairs was tricky at times. I would talk to your doctor about your exercise goals, but if you have to be on the beta blockers it may not be doable.

    3. I take beta-blockers for migraines (I get them 5/7 days a week without, so it’s not really much of a choice). I ran a marathon last year, just SLOWLY, and that’s pretty much how my workouts go. I can build up endurance but find sprinting very difficult — I guess I figure that nobody cares what my performance is like, so as long as I can do physical activity that’s fun and keeps me in mental and physical shape, it’s fine. Just don’t use a heart rate monitor for training. One thing you can do (once you ask your doc) is experiment with the time of day you take it. I run first thing in the morning, then eat breakfast and take the beta blocker — I find that works best for me but YMMV. It’s also worth asking the doc if once you’re stable you can go to a smaller dose.

      Another thing to consider is that the edge will be taken off very stressful situations, so you might find yourself stress-eating less (if that is an issue for you as it is for me).

    4. Definitely follow up with your physician. Decreased exercise tolerance is a known side effect of some beta blockers. If this is a real problem for you, perhaps your physician can switch you to a different beta blocker – or another antihypertensive. Good luck!

    5. I was on a low dose of Inderal for migraines for a while and felt tired for the first few months. Eventually, the tiredness/out of it feeling went away. You may not have this issue because you are taking the beta blocker for hypertension, but Inderal made my blood pressure so low (I already had very healthy/low blood pressure) that I had a tendency to faint / come very close to fainting frequently and eventually had to give up Inderal in favor of Topamax, which isn’t a beta blocker.

    6. I have been on lots of different beta blockers for hypertension throughout my life. I am also an endurance athlete so some worked with my training and some didn’t. Definitely talk to your doctor – there are some great hypertension medications out there that have minimal side effects.

      Also, this is a little totally unsolicited advice, and I am only trying to offer one suggestion you may not have considered. Have you thought about swimming as a form of exercise? I have had hypertension for 25 years and every time I got into a routine of regular lap swimming, my blood pressure decreased to the point at which I no longer needed medicaiton. I have always biked, ran, lifted weights, etc, which all help control my BP, but swimming was by far the most effective. Obviously YMMV, but it might be worth trying for a few weeks. Good luck!

    7. I’m on beta blockers for migraines – I can still exercise, but have to ramp up my exertion more slowly. My understanding is that basically it takes your heart longer to respond to changes (in position or exertion), so just plan accordingly. I have always had a problem with dizziness/lightheadedness when I stand, and when I first got on beta blockers I passed out a couple of times – I’ve gone down on dosage and my body has adapted since then. For me it is still totally worth it to have greatly reduced migraines, but it’s definitely had drawbacks.

    8. I’ve been taking them for a while now, though I take them to keep my heart rate regular, not for hypertension. I’m always kind of tired, but I was really foggy too (though that preceded the taking of the beta blockers) and the doctor finally determined that it was a form of migraines – so I take something for that every day, too. Off-label use of Effexor (tiny dose – half of the smallest available), 20 minutes after I took the first one, the fog lifted.

      As for workouts – just keep an eye on your heart rate. I’ve found that it takes longer to get it up to where I want it to be. It’s like it’s held lower for an artificial amount of time, then jumps up to a normal cardio workout rate (but doesn’t keep going up in a scary way). I do think that it is generally harder for me to keep weight off (just everyday lower heart rate/slower burning of calories issue), but workouts are fine once you get going.

    9. I had issues with beta blockers to the point of ending up in the hospital. (I also have very low blood pressure, so it was a bad time to the point of not finding a blood pressure that would indicate I was alive. That’s an odd thing to hear.) Definitely call your doctor.

    10. One other thing – and speaking from experience here – don’t play around with your dose or stop/start beta blockers on your own (i.e., without a doctor’s supervision). This is a great way to cause unsafe changes in your blood pressure that can cause dizziness and possibly passing out.

  5. i like this jacket a lot but am having trouble figuring out what bottoms to pair it with that won’t scream “easter sunday.” the teal pleated pants in the picture are giving me a real church lady/elementary school librarian vibe.

    1. This would look really nice with a shift dress which is the same colour teal/turquoise as the piping

    2. I’m not a fan of too many brights at once so I’d play it safe and wear with navy top and bottom and warm brown or nude-for-me shoes. Or maybe I’d go more creative with the shoes and wear, like, purple or dark red wedges.

  6. I have an informational interview today with an applicant to my firm. I think I should just let the interviewee ask questions about the firm and my experience here, but I’ve heard the interviewee is kind of reserved and quiet. What am I supposed to say? For job applicants out there, what kinds of things would you hope to get out of an informational interview with a junior associate? TIA!

    1. If I were doing it (but note, I’m more of the junior associate on the other side of the table), maybe you could try to make it more of a back and forth about her general career goals rather than just your firm specifically — and then you could kind of work in how your firm fits into those goals. Just so you can get her talking. Sometimes its so hard to come up with a full conversation’s full of questions about a firm. Though I have to say, if she’s an candidate for a position at your firm, how is this an informational interview and not just an interview? :-P She’ll probably be nervous just as though it were a regular interview (I know I would be).

    2. I’m not a lawyer, but have been on both ends of the interviewing process, including recently. I would think about sharing:

      – overview of how your firm is organized (e.g., who reports to whom, how many people are devoted to different specialties) – and how representative you are of all law firms
      – your own background (education, employment history, how you got to where you are today)
      – what you like most about your firm
      – is there anything you wish you had known when you were in the interviewee’s position?
      – what are typical days like for you? for your colleagues?

    3. Some points I could think of, were discussing things like the typical work the position entails, the different backgrounds of people doing such work and what qualifications or experience would distinguish am person applying for a job if it were available etc.

      I am sure that the interviewee will ask you questions about it, but from my experience, my favorite informational interviews were where the person I was interviewing had put some thought into such topics.

    4. I did a bunch of informational interviews when I was jobhunting after my MA (and then I preached the gospel of informational interviews to my husband after he graduated, and he did even more than I did). They can be super helpful beyond just making contacts — it really does help you understand the field, what actual jobs are like, etc. So I would suggest, you should absolutely expect her to come prepared with questions (maybe around 5). But try to give her expansive answers to her questions – not just a direct one-sentence answer – and try to turn it into more of a conversation.

    5. One of the most helpful informational interviews I’ve ever had was one where the junior associate I was interviewing just talked a lot about what brought her to the firm (a lot of things that, never working in a firm, I’d never considered), and what kind of work she was doing now and what she thought she would be doing in the future. Most of the time when I’m doing informational interviews, I’m interested in two things: the qualifications necessary to get the job of the person I’m interviewing with, and what their job actually looks like on a day to day basis. The second question is one that the people I’m interviewing most frequently brush off, but that I wish they would expand on in much greater detail.

  7. I want to like this blazer…but I can’t. I’m not able to put my finger on quite what it is but I don’t like it.

    Threadjack – Coming into work today I only had my laptop bag, purse, and lunch. That felt really weird as I usually have a huge tote and more than likely my gym bag. I do drive to work so I’m able to bring more but I’m wondering how many bags you all bring with you to work. Does it change by day/week or is it always the same? Curious to find out as I’m looking to find a streamlined routine for myself in the mornings.

    1. Mine varies.

      I walk to work so I try to go for the bare minimum. Today I only had my handbag with a non-creasing jacket firmly stuffed in. My work shoes live at work and I walk in flats. Sometimes I have an event after work etc so on a subsequent day I may have to transport shoes in which case I tend to use a backpack. I would love to pretend that I make my lunch every day, but I don’t – the days I do, though, it goes in the backpack. Same if I am refilling my snack drawer etc.

      This kind of leads to jacking your threadjack – if anyone has a nice backpack they use for commuting that doesn’t look like something one would go hiking with, I’d love to know!

      1. Several people I know who either walk the entire way or at least several blocks worth swear by the Ogio backpacks. They make specific commuter backpacks. My boss loves the Metro style.

        1. I love my Timbuk2 Swig Bag. It’s comfy, spacious, and the top flap is waterproof for the fun days when I walk to work in the rain.

      2. I just bought the Timbuk2 ipad backpack. It’s quite compact and holds a lot and is on sale right now for $25.

    2. I used to bring a giant bag but have switched to just a medium-sized purse and a lunch bag. I always thought I might need my laptop, or to bring large files home, but I never did so I stopped dragging everything around with me. I go to a gym really close to my house, so I don’t need gym things at work. It’s now a lot easier to navigate trains and buses!

    3. Even when I walked or took a cab to work, I used to have a ton of things.
      Now I have a tiny car and what I carry is as follows:

      What stays in the car:
      – Gym bag + stash of water bottles
      – Uggs + wedges + sometimes flats or flip flops (driving shoes)

      What I lug to office:
      – Computer Backpack stuffed with: computer + charger + earphones + business cards + work papers + stationary & occasionally my travel mug
      – Smallish saddle bag: cosmetics bag + wallet + snacks + a little book and small things

      I work in a cubicle farm but at my desk/drawer I have the following:
      – A big mirror (A4 size) disguised in a decorative book :) I just open it and fix myself then close it and no one notices.
      – More snacks + Tea
      – Emergency pack: deodorant – lint remover – feminine stuff – shoe buff etc.

    4. I’m always amazed about how much you guys seem to carry! I drive, but my usual is either a regular purse (smaller-sized, not one that you could put a notebook in) OR my computer/file bag if I will need either my laptop or papers, and I usually tote a plastic grocery bag with tupperware’d leftovers for lunch. If I want to restock my drawers, that usually goes in the lunch bag. Sometimes if I brought home a file or something, I’m toting that back (unbagged), and on a few very rare occassions I’ve brought a tote bag with a change of clothing, but that’s unusual.

      1. This is exactly what I do. Small purse, lunch in a plastic grocery bag. I just carry the file if I had to bring one home.

    5. I bring a shoulder bag, which contains my wallet/purse-type items, anything I need for work, and lunch, and a spike bag with flip-flops and running clothes. Since I drive, don’t have to worry about commuting shoes; I also keep my running shoes in the car. And because I almost never have to do work at home that requires my actual work laptop, I don’t have to worry about lugging it back and forth. On the rare occasion that I do, I bump up to three bags: shoulder bag, spike bag, and lunch bag.

    6. Briefcase with laptop, files, lunch. Smallish purse for wallet, phone, keys, blackberry. Also into the car goes the shoe box of today’s heels because I drive in flats. Occasionally, I also have a giant tote with more files, or a package to ship back. And sometimes a gym bag. I feel like the opposite of one of those women in movies who is carrying a shopping bag from every store on Rodeo Drive – tons of bags but nothing new and exciting in them.

    7. I often feel like a bit of a sherpa, but I usually have the following: My yoga mat, my gym bag, my lunch bag and my purse. Depending on what is in my gym bag, I can sometimes stuff my lunch bag into it, but…usually not.

      I look even sillier when it’s the middle of winter so I’m wearing a huge jacket, sorel boots, a hat, mittens, scarf, etc.

      So yeah, clearly I bring a lot of bags.

    8. I drive, I usually have my purse, fairly large though I want to downsize soon and should be able to fairly easily.
      Lunch bag.
      Gym bag.
      I am apparently somewhat different as I always always always bring my gym bag into my office and change after work before leaving the building. I’m lucky that I can do that and nobody raises any eyebrows but if I leave work in my work clothes I am not likely to go workout. I only recently joined a gym, on a 1 month free membership, and I really don’t like it. Small, hot changing rooms, not very good equipment, etc… so I try not to change there and I like to run outside so if I don’t change here there’s nowhere to change at all!
      I almost never take files home, I keep a shoulder bag in my office just big enough for files, notepad, and in a pinch my computer. Usually it just chills here though.
      Come summer, I will likely start keeping shoes in my office and commuting in flats, but during the winter I wear boots like 95% of the time.

    9. I drive to work and bring only a large leather tote with me in the morning. It holds my work laptop, wallet, keys, phones (work & personal), and other misc. items, along with my water bottle/lunch for the day if I bring it. I purposefully bought a huge bag that would fit the majority of my stuff because I hate carrying multiple bags with me to the office everyday.

      No need to bring gym clothes, as I don’t go to the gym until later in the evening (like 7:00-7:30), so I normally have time to run home after work and change before rushing off to the gym.

    10. I walk to the station (most mornings) and then take the train, so I try to limit what I carry. Usually I have a tote that fits my lunch, my small purse, snacks, etc. Sometimes even my shoes (if I want to wear a pair that don’t live at the office). I don’t usually bring my computer home, but if I do, I use my computer bag that I store at the office and only bring home the essentials that night (ie, I’ll leave my shoes at the office to bring home another day if I need to) so I can limit the amount I carry.

      I hate carrying a large bag/purse. I was so glad when my kids got old enough that I didn’t need the diaper bag anymore!! And even then, my diaper bag was as small as I could get away with.

    11. One enormous work bag that can hold my lunch, a pair of shoes and a water bottle. I used to carry two bags, but then on days when I also had my gym bag I had an unmanageable three bags (I walk to work). So I consolidated to one big bag.

      On gym days, I have two bags – my work tote and my gym bag.

      1. thoughts on having a mirror at your desk? i work in a medium cubicle and have been thinking of getting a tabletop mirror, probably 5×7, like a pictureframe, for a last minute check of the teeth/lipstick before meetings. would that be weird/narcissistic? i dont have much else in my cube, because i like a spare environment.

        1. I would stick to something concealed! I have a compact mirror in my desk. It does the trick for checking my makeup/teeth. I have a coworker with a 5-inch round mirror on her desk and a bottle of perfume and both have always struck me as unprofessional. (Possibly biased by the fact that I think this person has a poor work ethic.)

        2. I keep a small mirror on my desk. I function as a spokesperson and I often have to reapply lipstick and check my teeth before running out to do a short interview.

    12. I just carry a purse. It is big enough to fit shoes if I need to bring a new pair in to the office (besides the ones I keep at my desk).

  8. The proportions are awful. The blazer is too short, and the color combination is so unusual that it would be hard to pair this piece. I personally don’t like ivory and turquoise.

    The pajama pants don’t help.

  9. Ok, I know there are frequent threads on this so if not your cup of tea, please ignore with my apologies. But also please help! My DH’s birthday is this weekend and I have no idea what to get him. Added problem being that I usually get him phenomenal gifts he loves, so bar is set pretty high. But I have run out of ideas.

    He doesn’t really need anything, I don’t want to just get him some super practical gift like another jumper, and I would be willing to spend up to $300-400, but don’t need to spend that much if it’s the right gift. I am already going to take him out to a nice dinner at his favorite restaurant.

    So far my ideas are:
    1. Fancy headphones – he always breaks his apple ones and steals mine, and I was thinking of going to BOSE or Bang & Olufson and getting him a good pair. But just headphones seems a bit drab. What would go with that? Is a $25 itunes card to the man you married too impersonal?
    2. Experience gift certificate – some super fun weekend thing like a flight lesson or scuba. Only downside is of all the things I have gotten him like this, he hasn’t really used them. But there is a something he’s really into so I could make an attempt at no. 7. The downside is this would be the most expensive of all the stuff and I don’t want to spend money on a non-sure thing.
    3. Fancy money clip from Tiffany or the like. He already has one and loves it. Preaches the gospel of money clip to everyone he encounters. So con: he has one, pro: this would be a fancy engraved one he could cherish.
    4. Other ideas – Help??? TIA!

    1. I don’t know why, but I get endless pleasure out of coming up with gift ideas for people I don’t know. :-P Its a problem.

      So, for my DH, I have found that experiential gifts work best if they are things we do together. So a couples cooking class, tickets to a sporting event or show (given the use of the phrase jumper, perhaps he likes football/soccer?), or for $300-$400 you could probably even do a night out in a nice hotel in the nearest big city where you live with a nice dinner at a restaurant. Something like that.

      For straight-up presents, if he’s into that sort of thing, he might appreciate a really nice watch or pair of shoes (sort of things I always have trouble buying myself). Bose headphones are awesome — especially if you fly a lot — and men really appreciate them. If he golfs, you could probably get a pretty sweet driver or something in that price range (I know next to nothing about this).

      1. I bought my husband the BOSE noise cancelling headphones for his birthday one year. I forgot the model no but they are the newer ones and run about $300. He loves them. My husband likes to listen to music a lot and travels quite a bit for work so he loves the noise cancelling feature while traveling. I have tried them and they really do work well!

        1. boys love bose store. mine dragged me in there recently- all dudes looking high on electronics excitement

    2. I’ve also had experiential gifts go over well when they’re for both of us – like tickets to his favorite comedian. One of his favorite gifts wasn’t even all that expensive – he’s a big coffee drinker, so I got him a new Bodum french press and a few bags of coffee from a local place that roasts fair trade beans, plus a chrome coffee scoop from Crate and Barrel. You could add other things to make it a set, like a new travel mug. He got one from my mother that’s made by Sigg and he loves it, says it’s the best one he’s ever had.

    3. Maybe give us an idea of what kinds of things he likes or doesn’t like? What are the awesome presents you’ve given him in the past?

      My father got everyone in our family bluetooth headsets (earbuds with a speaker so you can talk on the phone) and I love them so much there aren’t words to express it. However, they were probably less than $30.00 and I don’t think anyone else in my family has even opened them yet.

      1. Great idea! In the past, I usually just filled holes in his life so gifts were easy. For instance, I got him a gorgeous bath robe he can lounge around in that he now wears to have breakfast on the back porch, or a new calfskin briefcase when he got a promotion, which he adores and carries everywhere. He’s a pretty straight forward guy – not too flashy, likes history, loves sports, and, yes, especially football/soccer, likes fun bow ties, loves his ipad, wears cologne but already has one he likes, likes cufflikes but already has a few pairs, does play golf but I have so little knowledge of that game I wouldn’t dare know where to begin to get a golf gift…

        I agree that the experience gift probably needs me or a buddy as a component but I really don’t see myself doing anything he’d want to do, and getting him something we’d both want to do might come across as a gift for me as well, not that that’s a bad thing. Just want something to be all super lovely for him. Sometimes, I really wish he just would start collecting something like stamps or maps so I could always have a go to! ;-P

        Anywho, great ideas all – please keep the suggestions/thoughts coming!

        1. If there is a golf course near by could you book a tee time for him and some buddies? Then make a “going golfing” cooler/basket (extra balls, new golf towel, beers)?

        2. Ok, just throwing these out there, b/c I don’t know much about any of these things. However, from TV, I know that mean who are into sports and history enjoy:

          a. Super-expensive sports memorabilia . . . things
          b. Trips to historical sites- maybe you could get a bed and breakfast at Gettysburg or something like that?

          Also, and this just occurred to me, a nice grill might be in that price range if he likes to grill. My dad “gets” a grill for his birthday or Christmas at least once every 2 or 3 years.

        3. Why not get him to tickets to a game of his favorite local sports team and then tell him to take his best male friend. :-) Or line up the male friend in advance!

  10. I’m a regular poster, but am going as anon as possible for this. I have a serious community question in three parts:

    (1) What is your fighting pattern with your partner/SO?

    (2) What happened in the worst fight you’ve ever had?

    (3) Do you have any recommendations for books/resources on how to “fight fair”?

    I’m not really looking for advice. I’m just trying to figure out how normal/abnormal we are, and how to break out of a developing pattern.

    Yesterday my husband and I got into a massive, massive fight. It involved yelling, screaming, and, after he would not stop to let me out of the car to get away, more yelling and screaming and me hitting him and leaving scratches and him holding my wrists so hard they have visible bruises today. This is the worst fight I’ve ever been in.

    I grew up in a house where my parents never, ever yelled. They fought by not talking to each other for days or weeks at a time. My husband grew up in a house in which fights were knock-down drag-out events. We never fought like this the first 4-5 years we were together.

    For the last few months we’ve been fighting much more than usual, basically on the stress of a very, very tight financial situation and the choices/obligations/bad consequences that flow from that. Very, very rarely do our fights get physical like yesterday, but now at least once a week there’s lots of screaming and finger-pointing. It seems we’ve perfected how to push each other’s buttons and now play whack-a-mole on them – neither of us are innocent.

    We are having a lot of struggles right now but I genuinely believe we have a good fundamental marriage. There’s not another person I’d rather be married to. When we don’t fight, we’re happy, but these fights are taking a huge emotional, spiritual, and physical toll on me. I do not want to talk to my real life friends about this, and I have no idea how they fight with their S.O.’s.

    1. This is absolutely not normal. I was in a relationship like this previously and the violence only escalated, until something very scary happened. That was my wake up call to leave for good.

      I met my husband and things are so, so different. Of course we have fights–but we never, never yell at each other, we never raise our voices or call names, and it never gets physical. It would be a huge red flag to me that he did not let you out of the car. That is a crime in most, probably all, states! It also shows a huge amount of disrespect for you and your feelings, safety, etc. I think that this behavior needs to be addressed in counseling if you intend to stay with him, and that you should make plans to protect yourself, should this escalate. Also, I don’t think it is acceptable for you to scratch or hit him either, that is also a crime! I think you should both get into counseling to learn how to communicate.

      1. I don’t know if you can say, flat out, that this is not normal. I have a very good relationship, but we have had (and probably will have in the future) very heated fights that have resulted in physical things (more akin to grabbing and holding that anything else). I think its important to work towards a place where you can discuss things calmly before they get to the “I am so mad, I’m going to pop” stage, but I don’t think that you should or need to head for the hills.

        As for people that never yell at each other, to me that’s less normal that what the OP described. I think its impossible to be close without getting into arguments and yelling from time to time.

        What I would suggest, is that during a non-fighting period, you both do a lot of reflection. Take the time to admit where you were wrong. Really think about it. Apologize. Hopefully he can do the same on his end (because usually, both of you are right and wrong about things). Talk about how you can avoid that type of fight in the future. Talk about the things that set each of you off. Talk about ways you can both cool down before it gets to that point.

        1. And, yes, of course, therapy would probably be great to work out these issues.

          I don’t think you can say that any relationship is “normal” or not normal. But, this doesn’t sound like you are saying he abuses you. It sounds like you are saying that you BOTH get really heated and it goes over the top.

          1. I agree that normal is totally subjective. But I think that once your fights escalate to hitting and scratching, it is a sign of a serious problem. It doesn’t nec. sound like the OP is saying she is being abused, but it does sound like she was being abusive (and your SO should have let you leave the car, no question about that). I’m sorry, I’m really not judging or pretending I know what is going on here, but if the OP wrote that they got into a big fight and he hit her and she had scratches, we would all be saying she needs to leave. I don’t think it should be any less of a serious issue when a woman does it because that situation can get out of hand very easily.

            To the OP, I think you are in a high stress situation and it is clouding your ability to fight productively. Therapy would be a good idea. Trying to set some ground rules with your partner — and doing your best to actually follow them — would also be a good idea. Relationships go through tough things. You just need to address these issues before they get out of control.

        2. I agree with this anon, I think it’s hard to say categorically what’s normal or not in these situations because it very much depends on the you and the dynamics of your relationship. I’m one of those abnormal people who never gets in yelling matches with my husband, in fact, we rarely “fight” — if I come at him in a fighting/yelling manner he basically just shuts down. I found it really, really disconcerting for the first few years of our relationship that we didn’t/couldn’t “fight,” until we figured out a way of working through problems that didn’t involve having it out.

          I think that rather than figuring out whether this is normal or abnormal, you should focus on whether this is productive for the both of you to have it out and relieve tension that way, or if the fights are causing more stress and you need a different way of working through things. It sounds like the fights are causing you a lot of stress, and therefore are something you need to work on eliminating, regardless of whether or not they’re “normal.”

          1. This is how we “fight.” If either of us get angry, he just bails, goes for a drive or to work or to a relative’s house until we can talk about it reasonably. I always want to have it out RIGHT. THEN! But the last couple years have shown me that his way is much much much better. It sucks because I feel really frozen out, but once we’re both calmed down we have a conversation about what happened and why and what the underlying issue is and whether or not it’s something serious or just a misunderstanding, etc…

            We haven’t had a “fight” in over a year now. For some people that would drive them nuts, my sister can’t even believe how easily he has “tamed” my infamous temper. But it works for us. Other styles work for other people.

            The red flags here are hitting/scratching, grabbing wrists to the point of bruising, and refusing to let OP out of the car. However, I don’t see “abuse” necessarily on either side. Obviously, if this pattern continues it will likely escalate and it will be abusive, but likely on both sides. I really don’t understand the impulse/ability to physically harm the person you’re fighting with. I haven’t been in a physical fight since my brother got too big for me to easily beat! :-)

            It sounds like OP started this physical fight, and that’s something I think you really need to sit down with yourself and think about. Why do you want to hurt the man you love? Why do you want to cause him pain? That’s what you need to figure out and you may not be able to do that with him, it’s something inside yourself. You don’t mention either of your mental states during these fights, were you hysterical, was he? In other words, was he not letting you out of the car and grabbing your wrists to hurt and imprison you, or to stop you from hurting him and keep you safe and off the side of the busy freeway you were driving on at the time. It makes a difference.

            It sounds like you both are under a lot of stress and you’re both blaming the other. Maybe you need to sit down with a trusted third person to work through the thing causing the stress. You mention financial troubles, so I’m guessing you don’t have the money to sit down with a therapist or a financial counselor, if you do, you definitely should. But possibly you could have someone else there, a parent, a religious figure, even a mutual friend you can agree on, to force you two to deal more reasonably with each other. I know it’s impossible to think about letting an outsider into these serious problems, but I don’t know that this is something you can solve yourself.

            Maybe one of your parents is good with money, good with budgets, etc…and you can ask them to sit down with you without trying to solve your problems by giving you money or anything, but help you to communicate and solve your own issues with your resources.

            I don’t know, I’m just spitballing here, but I can tell you that once a relationship devolves into physical harm, it’s a hard road to come back from. Good luck!

      2. This, right down to the way dh & I fight. We celebrate our 18th anniversary this summer, and we have arguments, but we never yell at each other and it never gets violent. I’m fairly non-confrontational and tend to be the person that cries when she’s angry or in an emotionally charged situation, so often when emotions start running high we stop, collect ourselves, and continue the discussion in a few hours or the next day. When I need to bring something up to him to discuss I usually rehearse what I’m going to say to make sure I have all my points before talking to him.

        I think counselling would be a very good thing for the two of you.

    2. I’m going to cut to the chase and suggest couples therapy. If you are fighting this much and it is escalating to physical fights, you are well outside the realm of normal (and I think that you know it).

      I understand that the source of your stress is financial and so it might seem impossible to seek help right now. But, there are resources out there. I’ve not looked in to this particular issue, so I hope that others can point you in a specific direction for low-cost therapy.

      1. My husband and I have financial difficulties, and we stumbled upon an incredibly qualified, credentialed therapist at a church we don’t even go to. He’s seeing us at a significantly discounted rate. We were referred to him by another counselor when I explained our situation.

        Our income disqualified us from “formal” sliding scales at other places, but our debt made it impossible to pay the $300+/month for weekly marriage counseling. The church’s theory was that they didn’t want money to stand in the way of people getting help.

      2. THIS. Even a few sessions with a therapist can be really, really helpful. we did this after a particularly bad fight, and even two sessions helped us find ways to stop the escalation *before* it gets so bad.

    3. Absolutely not normal.

      My husband and I (of course) fight, particularly in stressful situations. But I can count the number of times that we have raised our voices to each other, and in the almost-five years we’ve been together, neither of us has ever, EVER hit the other.

      I second Appelican. You should certainly seek out couple’s counseling to help the two of you learn how to more effectively communicate frustrations/not to act out violently toward each other.

    4. When we fight, we yell; we’re both emotional people. And I may have thrown water at him before. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the way we fight. But fights certainly should not get physical to the point where you both have physical marks.

    5. My husband and I have been fighting more lately but our fights are usually once or twice every few weeks. Neither one of us likes to back down so these fights usually involve yelling but never any name-calling and definitely nothing physical.

      I am concerned that since you have now gotten physical – what will happen during your next fight? I believe you and your husband have loving relationship but you both need to take a step back and look at what you are doing to your marriage. My experience is that if you don’t do this next time you may say or do somthing that you can’t undo and it will change the relationship between you two. Does your husband agree this has gone over the line? If not, well that is a big problem and I would be worried about your safety. If so then I would see if he would be willing to go with you to see a counselor.

    6. I agree that this rises above the threshold of normal. You might want to look into joint therapy.

    7. First and most importantly, I do not think the physical fighting you are describing is normal. It certainly has never been in any of my relationships, and I do not think it sounds healthy. Especially given what you’re describing about the increasing frequency, I very much worry about escalation on both your parts and this turning into a DV situation.

      I will disagree with the other posters, though, and admit that my husband and I “yell” at each other. We both have short tempers and somewhat loud voices. A disagreement may turn to three or four yelling back and forths. At which point, we usually take a break and the fight is totally over with no hard feelings (quick and time-limited tempers) or we re-engage later in a calmer mood. But we do, definitely, “yell” at times. I do not think our relationship is unhealthy because of this.

      1. I would agree. My husband and I just aren’t “yellers” by nature, so we rarely if ever “yell.” We do get snippy (our version of yelling, I would imagine) when we fight. Like you, our fights are over quickly and we’re able to disengage without lasting hurt feelings.

      2. How do you “take a break” in the heat of the yelling match? My husband and I get into yelling matches sometimes and it spirals into an argument wildly disproportionate to what the impetus for the argument was. I think “taking a break” could be incredibly helpful, if we could manage that somehow, but we’re so wrapped up in the argument that I can’t imagine how to even go about it.

        1. My husband and I aren’t yellers, but I think having a keyword might help (like, bananas). If the fighting is starting to lose focus, either of you can yell ‘bananas’ and you have to stop and walk away for a period of time. Obviously you have to both agree that it’s an automatic pause button.

        2. 10:37 anon here. The way we do it is that one of us (almost always me because I have a lower tolerance for the yelling) says: “I refuse to yell about this anymore. This is not worth it.” And then I just disengage. For me, this is possible because even when yelling, I am still thinking rationally about the fight. My husband might resist and yell a few more times, but I just keep repeating: “This is not productive. I’m not doing this anymore.” We usually then separate to different rooms for ~ 1 hour and then are back to normal. And then, about 50% of the time, the conversation never comes up again. The other 50% of the time, when it comes up again, we talk through it calmly and don’t feel the urge to start yelling.

          1. 10:37 again. I should add that the “break from yelling” isn’t treated for us as a short-term break. We’re not planning to come back in an hour and settle it. We re-engage on another day or another week, if a all. It absolutely would not work for us to just take a one-hour break and then “come back and be rational.” The feelings would be just raw enough that the yelling would start up again.

      3. I agree with Anon at 10:37. I think the physical aspects are a concern, but I’m baffled by all these people who say its not normal to yell. My fiance and I both grew up in loud, yell-y families (not just parents fighting, everyone yelled at everyone when they were mad) and my fiance and I (together 3 years) have definitely had some loud yelling fights. I don’t think this makes our relationship unhealthy in any way. We are very happy together and both sets of our yell-y parents have been married 35+ years. We also bicker over more petty stuff (like when I get frustrated that he hasn’t taken out the trash in a week, which is his job), without raising our voices. It may be my personality and the culture I was raised in, but I would be much more uncomfortable with a partner who wouldn’t engage in a fight and would just walk away than a partner who will escalate a fight by screaming. I agree that anything physical, while not necessarily uncommon, is a red flag and probably something you should seek counseling about.

    8. My SO yells. I am not a yeller (I snark instead), but after a certain point I sometimes wind up yelling too. He says deliberately hurtful things, but is not physical. Fights generally involve him getting mad over something I did/said, going from a small problem into a big one very quickly, and him yelling until I cry. It is not healthy and we both know it. I feel like this is a respect issue – even when I am not nice, I try not to call him names or be hurtful, but when he is mad he swears and saws awful things. The way I was raised, you don’t talk to people you love that way.

      I’m wary of marrying him as long as this continues. I think either he needs some anger management skills or we need couples counseling, but I’m doubtful he would agree to either of those. We’ve been together for a few years now, and I’m not sure if we’ll make it. This is a dealbreaker for me in terms of marriage, and each time it happens I get a little closer to leaving. I love him and our life together, though. It is very hard to know what is right. I very much want a marriage where people get mad but still respect each other.

      That’s a lot about me. If I were you, I would be very concerned about him grabbing you and keeping you in the car. Other than that, I know exactly what you mean about knowing how to push each other’s buttons. I would like to try a strategy like fighting via email (it sounds ridiculous but I know it works for some people, and the few times it happened it was resolved much more smoothly than in person). It makes you think very deliberately about what you will say. Other than that, I guess I would recommend counseling, and maybe I should take my own advice.

      Mini TJ – how ridiculous is couples counseling for a couple that isn’t even engaged? Maybe that should be a sign.

      1. To answer your TJ: I don’t think couples counseling is ridiculous for an engaged (or non-engaged) couple, but I think that I personally would put a shorter time limit on it than I would for a married couple.

        If you love your SO and could envision a long future with him, I think it could be worth it, if only to figure out how to better communicate with each other and ensure that this person is right for you. There’s nothing wrong with saying, “I love you, but I don’t think we communicate very well, and I don’t know if I can stay in this relationship without trying to fix this.”

        1. I totally agree: I’d actually *recommend* couples counseling for engaged (or non-engaged couples) for this kind of issue. What you’re talking about is finding someone who can teach you two the tools you need to fight better — that seems perfectly reasonable to me.

      2. Anon reply @ 10:42am

        It is NOT ridiculous to do relationship counseling if you aren’t married. Why would it be?

        You’re being proactive. If you think problems are tough now, they’ll only get magnified 100x when you get married, because a lot of men (and women) somehow think they can stop putting their best foot forward once they formally marry and the sh!t will really hit the fan then. Plus, there’ll be a lot more joint decisions once you get married, and therefore, more fodder to potentially fight about.

        One of my best girlfriends had the same exact dynamic with her long-term BF and all of us (her circle of friends) pointed to the growing body of marriage-research that indicates that partners who fight dirty (dredging up old history, indicating a lack of forgiveness and unwillingness to move forward) and/or are snarky (saying dismissive things that show contempt for the other person) when fighting, are pretty much doomed to divorce, sooner or later.

        Lack of respect is corrosive, and corrosion only worsens over time. My friend and her BF got married, and then got divorced after 3yrs. And yes– he was quite nasty to her in the last 2yrs of their marriage, once telling her, “I know all the things to say to hurt you and I’ll say them, if you don’t do what I want.” While that’s chilling, that’s the same thing you’re boyfriend is doing, except he’s not clod enough to be so open about his dirty tactics.

        If he’s willing to change, he’ll show it by being willing to go to couples counseling, at the very least. If not, I’d say DTMFA.

        1. “your boyfriend,” not “you’re boyfriend.” *sigh*

          I really do know basic grammar. Really…

      3. You don’t have to be engaged to go to couples’ counseling.

        I agree with you that something needs to be done about your Sig. O’s verbal abuse when he gets angry. That stuff isn’t okay. Do you guys want kids? What if he says those things to you in front of the kids? What if he says hurtful things to your kids when he gets angry at them? I’ve been there with someone I dated for 5+ years. Honestly, I’m glad to be off that roller coaster. It took me a long time to stop dismissing the hurtful things he said by explaining them away with, “But he was drunk,” or “But he was angry” and to see it for what it was– a form of verbal/emotional abuse.

        I’d talk to him about it… give him some time to open up to the idea of counseling. Good luck.

      4. I had a similar situation. He yelled sometimes, but mostly he shut down and when I tried to discuss the situation he would either leave or he would attack me. Said very painful things. Then he would insist what he said was not wrong or not hurtful. Even when he left, he would refuse to discuss issues on his return, and would attack me.

        I had to get out. I suggested counseling and he refused. I suggested discussing with our pastor, he refused. I suggested discussing with any married friend he trusted – refused. You get the picture. One day, he pushed a button and I was the one saying – I’m walking out.

        @10:42 Anonreply, I personally would suggest counseling and strategies. Definitely don’t marry him like this. I could not imagine feeling that type of emotional pain with no escape. I also believe you can get angry in a respectful manner!

        1. “One day, he pushed a button and I was the one saying – I’m walking out.” Hah, that’s kind of what happened to me. After 5+ years of dating, he said some really hurtful things followed several days later by the usual, “I’m sorry, I don’t know why I say things like that to you when I’m upset. I didn’t mean it.”

          I said, “I’m sorry, too, but I’m done with this relationship.”

          I’m glad I finally did.

    9. I don’t think that anyone fights well. I have an amazing and fairly long marriage, and we do rarely fight, but what you’re describing doesn’t sound out of line with the worst fight that I’ve ever had. I disagree with Appelican, that him not letting you out of the car was necessarily wrong or illegal – I’m assuming here, of course, that you were somewhere where he’d literally be leaving you on the side of the road, and that you were probably mostly wanting to *react* and get a reaction, less than actually thinking that it would be a good idea to leave the car. (I could be wrong if my assumption of the circumstances is wrong.)

      Our fights are mostly non-existent at this point in our marriage, but, a few months back, when I was really stressed out about the lack of a job situation, things sometimes got frustrating. It generally started with me being upset and wanting comfort, but him more approaching it from a suck it up or fix it standpoint, and me exclaming that I was trying very hard to fix it, but there was no fix, etc. I don’t want to describe the details of the worst, but let’s just say that I ended up (and I swear that this was unintentional – he moved in a way I didn’t expect, though it wasn’t exactly my shining moment) breaking a plate of eggs over his head.

      It really was scary. It was the first and only time I’ve ever really thought that there was a chance that we could split up. But we didn’t – I apologized over and over, and he eventually sent me a text that we should forget that this every happened and put it int he past. And we did, no pattern or escalating violence or anything like that. All marriages have lower points, and it’s a fantasy to think that they won’t or that no one will ever get upset, even ridiculously so.

      Obviously, you leave if you’re in danger, but I didn’t see anything that indicated danger there. If you go at him, as women sometimes do because they just don’t consider themselves capable of actually hurting a man, he can and should defend himself, even if you get a bruise as a result. Again, I don’t know that that’s what happened, but I absolutely think that it would be unfair to accuse him of violence if that was the case (which I don’t think that you’re doing).

      I don’t have any books or anything to recommend; sometimes you just have to get past the stressor or learn to deal with it better. You said that you know each other’s trigger points; perhaps then the issue is that you both need to make a conscious effort NOT to push them, rather than letting your emotions take over and pushing.

      1. I am not assuming that they were somewhere in the middle of nowhere. I made no assumption about where they were (car-wise), but I do think that his actions were saying:

        “don’t you dare leave until I’m done saying my piece” and “I need to final word”

        There are people who follow their spouse from room to room haranguing them (if the fight is happening at home). I got the impression this is what the husband was doing, except, she was trying to “leave the space” by getting out of the car, and he didn’t want her to leave, not when he was not yet done venting/yelling/saying his piece.

      2. At least in my state, preventing someone from getting out of the car like was described by the OP meets the elements for false imprisonment. It is a fourth-degree felony here and is typically tacked on to any domestic battery case.

        1. Heck, this sounds a lot like the domestic violence case, pled down to false imprisonment against the Sheriff of San Francisco County. She apparently attacked him, he grabbed her arm hard enough to leave bruises, she told a friend and bam! Prosecution and plea deal.

    10. So here’s the thing, everybody fights. My husband and I fight, but we don’t yell — its not in our personality (he’s more of a steamer, I’m more of a crier). But we fight only very occasionally (no more than once a month) and usually its caused by outside stimulus.

      First of all, for me what is beyond the pale, is physical violence. That’s move out worthy behavior. At the very least, that’s we need to go to therapy and make sure this never happens again type behavior. It also sounds like explosive fighting is the way that your husband grew up with dealing with conflict and that you’re being brought into that cycle and you need to act now to break that.

      Second, (and this is a very short term thing) I don’t know if you’re familiar with her, but Gretchen Rubin of the Happiness Project writes about “Fighting Right” in a marriage.

      http://www.happiness-project.com/happiness_project/2007/04/this_wednesday__1.html

      Perhaps you and your husband should sit down together and separately and read this and other similar articles and talk about them. Because until you specifically address what has happened, its easier to fall back into the same patterns.

      (Sorry, I know you weren’t looking for advice…but I can’t resist)!

    11. As background, I grew up in a household with frequent screaming, and one parent frequently twisted arguments and used a lot of low blows when fighting. I didn’t learn that it wasn’t “normal” to blow up at people like that until I got much older. My husband grew up in a family with occasional amount of yelling, but mostly a lot of guilt.

      (1) What is your fighting pattern with your partner/SO?
      — We generally do not have big fights. I tend to get annoyed more easily than him, so I can get a little snippy at times, and I tend to bring up smaller grievances more often than him on a day-to-day basis (things roll off his back more easily). But, for the most part we tend to talk things out. We have tried to learn from our families and past relationships as to what not to do.

      (2) What happened in the worst fight you’ve ever had?
      — I can think of two fights that stick out in my mind, but the most either ever escalated to was raised voices.

      (3) Do you have any recommendations for books/resources on how to “fight fair”?
      — Unfortunately, no. I’m sorry. But I do think you need to see a couples therapist, and perhaps individual therapists as well. I think the situation you’ve described is very, very scary, and you both need someone other than each other to vent to, and also to figure out how to work through this very stressful time as a team. Not all therapists are covered by health insurance, but a lot of therapists will let you pay on a sliding scale. Even though your financial situation is very tight, I strongly urge you to set aside money for this.

    12. Try Gottman’s, “Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work.” Especially the chapter about the Four Horseman of fighting (stonewalling, ad hominem attacks, criticism and I forget the fourth). It is really helpful and an easy read.

      1. I completely second this recommendation. Many marriage books are religious in nature which can be off-putting if one or both members of the marriage aren’t religious. This book is scientifically based, and it has been a wonderful resource for my husband and me. I bought this book in response to one of the top three biggest fights we ever had, and basically told him that he was going to read the book with me, or that was it. He read the book with me, and our marriage has improved dramatically.

      2. My pastor gave this to DH and I during our premarital counseling. It is a great book for marriages (and not religious-based, FWIW). My DH and I both read it together, had deadlines to read each chapter and then scheduled “dates” to discuss the chapter we just completed. It was an eye-opening exercise and I’d definitely recommend it. We’re certainly not perfect, but it’s something that we found to be helpful.

        As for your current position, I don’t think you’re “abnormal.” Who the hell knows what abnormal is anyway? It does however sound like you are going through a period in your marriage that isn’t healthy for either of you and for your marriage as a whole. I would definitely recommend taking a step back and working on things for the sake of your marriage. Do you have a friend you could stay with for a night that won’t be judgmental? Sometimes taking a little breather from eachother can help you gain a little perspective.

        1. love gottmans too, spouse and i refer back to the books sometimes. we also attended a weekend workshop in seattle with the actual gottmans- well worth time/money.

    13. I did want to clarify a few things:

      This is definitely not an abusive relationship. I was in an abusive relationship for a time many years ago and none of the manipulation/guilt/cycle exists here. It’s a totally different animal, and I promise it is. It would take too long to explain, but it is and I completely trust myself in that assessment, so you’ll have to trust me too.

      We’re two adults who are really happily married but are stressed out beyond belief right now, and somehow both of us made it to adulthood without ever learning how to disagree appropriately with another person, and now that real, serious issues are on the line we both find ourselves fighting in a way that we don’t want and that we both regret.

      Having thought about it, this is the 3rd time there’s been anything physical as far as I can remember. The other two were sort of pushing/shoving out of the way type of physicals.

      And verbally, it’s definitely getting worse and not better with each argument. And I am concerned that we will get into a pattern where rather than a once-per-decade aberration, this becomes how we fight and I am ready to do whatever it takes to avoid that.

      And verbal vs. physical: The truth is, the verbal fighting hurts much, much more, and does more lasting damage than anything physical. If my choice was only between these two, I’d choose taping our mouths shut and duking it out over having a non-physical yelling argument. However, I want an argument where we calmly disagree like adults and don’t have verbal or physical issues.

      That said, I’m also looking for any non-therapy resources we can use in addition to therapy. We probably can’t afford very much therapy, so anything to help, and to help us be more prepared/introspective when we do go to therapy, would be really appreciated.

      1. If you can’t afford therapy, at least you can afford a conversation with one another where you discuss how you fight and come up with some methods for the next time you fight. (For example, talk about your concerns, where you think this might be headed, and agree that the next time this happens, you will, say, call a time out, regroup at the dining room table after 30 minutes, sit across from one another, and take turns talking about your feelings — no shouting, no moving around, no talking about the other. This is just an example, but I think you should test out different methods of communicating, and set ground rules, even if they feel forced and babyish, because what is coming out “naturally” is not working and sounds dangerous.) I would strongly recommend the book Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most, which is selling for as low as $0.01 on Amazon.

      2. This would only work if you’re part of some organized religious community, but is there some free pastoral-type counseling that you could get?

        I know a couple who opted for that, even though they’re wealthy, because the wife is a total cheapskate and didn’t want to pay a “real therapist.” They lucked out and got a very good counselor in the form of their local pastor, but, they did suffer some major awkwardness, because they were both pillars of the church, and the community (a small one) knew something was messed up about their marriage for awhile. Although, in the end, it all worked out well.

      3. So, obviously we all are just worried, and that’s why people are sharing what they’re sharing. But while verbal fights can be more emotionally damaging, maybe you both need to sit down and have a talk that takes anything physical off the table all together.

        But a few low cost tips — the Goffman book recommended above is good and as I said, I like the Happiness Project. I also like the following rules when fighting right — I try to always use “I” statements and never “you” statements. I try to remember what things are outside of my spouse or my control and not assign blame (its us against those things, its not us against each other). We walk away if things are getting too heated (this is key) — and you have to do it early, you can’t do it once its really hit a highly explosive threshold. And the last one, and the hardest one for me, is that you have to be willing to “lose” sometimes — or at least agree to disagree or let your partner feel like he’s won — because sometimes you have to take the high road to just diffuse a moment (not saying you have to agree to anything, but just kind of say — “I see what you’re saying and I understand.” kind of thing).

        Again, these sorts of things are the kind of things you need to actually be able to talk to your husband about when you aren’t actively fighting so you both can think about them and put them into practice together. Perhaps even right them down and just exchange written notes about what you think “fighting right” means — so that you both have to think about it. You know? But it doesn’t help if only one person does it, both sides have to be aware of what’s happening.

        Good luck! I know how hard it can be when finances and the like make life stressful.

      4. In addition to, or instead of, therapy, I’d suggest talking to a dr about destressing exercises and medication (zoloft, xanax etc). Certain things in your life can cause you to react to stress in different ways. When my mother, who lived quite far away from me, was dying, I was extremly stressed and taking it out on the rest of my family — think PMS on crack. after talking to my dr, i started taking medication that significantly helped me control my stress. I was on it for about a year and was then able to go off, though would have been fine with it if I needed it longer. It seriously changed my life.

      5. I’m a frequent poster, so anon for this. I know exactly what you are describing. I am not in an abusive relationship. But over the course of my relationship with my husband, we have broken, in the midst of fighting, all sorts of glassware, eyeglasses, furniture and, the scariest, my husband destroyed my notebook computer smashing it repeatedly against a wall. This happens once every 2-3 years because my husband cannot ever accept his culpability in anything and I cannot back down. These “bad” fights are always related to stressors in our relationship (money, jobs, kids).

        We are not in counseling (he won’t go). I think we’ve come to accept that this is part of our relationship, which is volatile, but has generally been stable, strong (over 25 years) and provides a lot (emotional, psychological) benefits to both of us. I don’t know if we will last (though I guess history suggests we might), but of late, I’ve come to the perspective that it may be ok that in my husband’s eyes, I’ve “lost” the fight (by being wrong, etc, etc…) because it’s not like anyone is giving out an award to him and it’s not like anyone else cares but us. It helps.

      6. My question would be this: it’s clear that you know that this is a problem. Does your husband know that it’s a problem? If so, then I think you can probably pick a time when things are okay between you and say “I’m not happy about the way that we behave toward each other when we’re upset, and I think it’s getting worse. Can we talk about this?”

        If you don’t think he realizes that this is not normal, then it’s more of an uphill battle.

      7. You can also try the library for free resources. If you look up any of the books recommended here, that should take you to the section where you can find a bunch of similar books.

        There also may be community resources available which the library would have information on.

        Again, good luck!

      8. Regular poster – going anon for this:

        Obviously one’s upbringing plays a HUGE part into this, and those habits are hard to shed. I say this because it seems you are understanding of his upbringing, but also be aware that change may not come easily. As an example – I come from a family where my dad never, ever backed down even when he was 150% wrong. My partner happens to be pretty OK with admitting when he is wrong and saying sorry. Ironically, sometimes it’s hard for me to accept he is honestly apologizing (and instead I think he is just saying sorry to end the argument “early”) because growing up no one “gave up” that easily. If he says sorry and makes the mistake again, it cause a huge flare-up on my part because I think “clearly he didn’t mean he’s sorry / he doesn’t care what I think / it’s just words “, etc. I’m trying to find the balance between holding each other to what we said we work on vs. acknowledging we’re human and mess up (more than once).

        Do you have kids? My parents fought in much the same way you describe above (the holding of the wrists, etc) a few times. I still cringe / grimace and get anxious when I remember that, even though it has been many many years (I was probably 8-12 at the time). So there’s another reason to go to therapy, to prevent this from escalating before it affects other family members.

      9. Are you near any universities or medical schools? Students need lots of hours to get their licenses and so therapy in those places is often much less expensive (and often quite good — my current psychiatrist is still a student and I can safely say that I would not be able to afford him once he is done with his residency). Second, group counseling is often cheaper (sometimes even free)! If you feel this is a minor hiccup that might become a very bad habit, I would definitely look into group.

        Mostly I’ve been working on being more self aware in situations and it is really remarkable how much that little change has helped.

    14. I agree with all the posters that what you have described is not “normal”. My SO have argued, but we’ve never raised our voices at each other.

      I want to put in a Carolyn Hax-ism here that if there is controlling or abusive behavior in your relationship couples therapy might not be the best idea. It may be more helpful to go to individual counseling, at least at first.

      1. Yes – great point. Therapy by yourself first to get your priorities straight, figure out what you will / will not tolerate, etc.

    15. Not normal at all. Fighting yes, but physical violence is never okay. The fact that you all have escalated to that means you need professional help. Individual and couples therapy more than likely. You all need a safe place to work out your issues.

      In the interim you all need to lay out some ground rules. If you’re the kind of person that needs to get away or you’re going to start hitting him, you need to tell him in a calm moment that you will leave when you are upset and need to cool down. If he is concerned about you driving while you’re worked up, agree to wait outside and call a cab.

  11. I’m wearing that JC Penney skirt that everyone has been talking about for the last few weeks, and I love it!

    I got it in teal. I’m wearing it with an aqua scoop neck t-shirt, rose gold drop earrings, a rose gold watch, and nude flats. I feel very summery (and maybe a little “business Barbie”/Elle Woods but only because of the colors), and it is a nice change from my usual black and grey. The skirt is lined, has a zipper, and has two faux pockets in back. The seams are similar to those of “the skirt,” but this skirt is not ponte knit. I’m almost 5’5, and it covers about 1/3 of my knees.

    I bought it two size up from my normal size. My usual size was a little more form-fitting in back than I like to wear to work. One size up was out of stock. When I tried two sizes up, it was sufficiently loose in back without looking baggy.

    They also had a lovely plum color, but they were out of stock in my size. I may have to order it online. My JC Penney was sadly out of stock of many cute items in my size (6/8/medium).

    1. I also wore this skirt this week in same color! I will probably get another. I thought it fit true to size and bought my typical size. I must say though, wearing it made my walk to work very interesting. I LOVED the smiles I got from cute guys, DIDNT LOVE the smiles I got from skeevy guys. Got looks all around though!

      1. I am pear-shaped, so I have to be careful that my skirts and pants aren’t too tight in the back. (I’m also a little paranoid about skirts that don’t go completely straight down in back and, instead, cling to my butt even the slightest bit), so I think that might be it.

        For some reason, the color really seems to be an attention-grabber. It isn’t that bright, but in a sea of black and grey, it does stand out.

    2. Can you link? I feel like every work skirt I own is either black, gray, or some pinstriped combination of the two. I’m wearing a teal tank top under a black cardigan over a gray tweed skirt today, so I’m trying to venture into color, but that skirt sounds like the giant leap I may need…

    3. Mind linking? I don’t have time to look through the old threads and haven’t had time to keep up lately!

    4. I had to replace mine over the weekend, wore it today too! My old one was over a year old, and after wearing it almost weekly the hem just died–that’s a long life for a $20 skirt!

  12. My boss is in the process of getting permission to get me a promotion and/or raise. This is a big deal because we are in a salary freeze right now. It is a “please don’t leave us” raise. Of course, that’s exactly what I’m planning on doing. The jobs I’m applying to are a much better fit for me both short and long term, although I do enjoy my current job. What do I do about the raise? If I take it and leave within 6 months, am I a jerk?

    1. A lot of this depends. My husband is a federal employee. For him to get a promotion/raise someone first has to create a position in the higher pay grade. Then, everyone has to compete for it, even if the internal boss already knows who is getting it. If someone takes it and then quits, and they are in a hiring freeze, that position is basically eliminated. The position someone left to take the promotion is also frozen so that leaves them shorter staffed with no one getting a raise. It could be quite sometime before another raise roles around.

      In that environment, if someone took a raise and then left quickly it could burn some bridges. But, in that environment, those “bridges” are less important to future development.

      Outside of that weird and special federal hiring program I’d say take the raise and don’t “leave before you leave” since you have no idea how long it will be until you find something else. Plus if you do find something else, you will be negotiating from a higher starting salary.

      If you are in the weird federal hiring world, I’m not sure how you would avoid taking the coveted promotion. I know in my husband’s field nobody keeps it a secret that they are looking for other jobs. But, his field is very unique and specific and meant to be a stepping stone to other departments. Many other places, the openness he is used to would hurt your prospects.

    2. You take the raise. Why are you questioning this? The raise reflects work you have done, and your perceived value to the company. It is not a payment for your soul or loyalty. Remember, if you were perceived as less valuable, or times were tight, they wouldn’t hesitate to lay you off.

      Take care of yourself first.

      1. This. You may be applying for other jobs but you don’t have them yet – in this economy, you should not count those chickens just yet. Meanwhile, the promotion is a reward for past behavior, not future work = no reason to feel guilty for taking it.

        1. agree with this. I just want to add don’t be afraid to “take your seat at the table” and take what you have earned. Women always second guess these types of thing – most men wouldn’t blink at taking a raise and then leaving. I don’t see how you can not take it – won’t that raise a red flag from your boss anyway?

          Also, this is a great negoating tool for your job seach!!!!!! This raise can translate to more money in your future job!! DO NOT say no.

      2. Yep. This is a “what would a man do? / why do women sell themselves short?” moment, in my opinion.

        1. I agree but because she used language like “hiring freeze” and “getting permission to get a promotion” I thought it might involve other people putting their word on the line for her and a totally different culture than most Corporettes are used to – where the rules are different and bridges burned for totally different reasons. If it an otherwise “normal” job situation then yes, I completely agree with what every else wrote here.

          1. sorry, blond lawyer, still 100% ok for her to go for it. would any male ceo making $24 mil a year care about these details? NO.

    3. I don’t think so. Blonde Lawyer has some good points, but in most cases leaving 6 months after the raise isn’t that big a deal. Now if you take the raise and the next day turn around and give notice…but honestly, people’s memories aren’t that long. My former boss delayed and delayed and delayed giving me my annual raise, finally he gave me 1/2 of what I asked for, and said that if my performance was reviewed favorably by a brand new employee(!) albeit an experienced attorney, he would give me the rest of the raise. He finally did about…6 weeks before I gave my notice. It never came up.

    4. Thank you all for the advice. I was hoping that I was making a bigger deal out of this than I needed to! If/when I leave I am going to feel a bit guilty about it, and I think I’m projecting that guilt on this raise. It helps to think of this raise as a reward for my previous performance, rather than a tool to keep me.

    5. Take the raise. You don’t know if you’ll get one of those other jobs or how long it might be (but we hope you do!). Plus, you might be able to use your new/higher salary at your current job to get an additional raise when you transition to a new job.

  13. I like the blazer, but I have such a hard time keeping white (or ivory or ecru, etc.) white.

    Job TJ: On my school’s job site, I came across a posting that would be perfect for me. The practice area is what I want to practice and the firm is looking for someone with potential for growth. The only problem is, it’s in Dallas and I have no connections in Dallas or Texas. How do I word my cover letter to address this issue? Or do I just leave it alone and let my passion for the area speak for itself?

    TIA ladies.

    1. I think you can just apply and not mention the geography issue, especially if your resume indicates that you have lived in various places (like college in X, worked in Y, law school in Z, now applying for jobs in A). If they are not located in your city but are posting there, they should be expecting applicants from there, and you don’t need to justify your applying beyond the fact that you are interested in the job. If it comes up while interviewing, you can always say that you are looking for the right job, and that you aren’t all that tied to geography (or say that you love sand and are so over snow, so the idea of leaving CO for TX is really appealing, or whatever).

    2. Don’t ignore it. Talk about your interest in the Dallas market, why you think the location is a good fit, etc. – say something to make them think that you actually like Dallas. When I lateraled to Dallas several years ago, I had 0 connections here (I was already in Texas though) and I focused on the thriving legal community, the growth potential here, and that it was closer to family (that was a stretch – it was further from all but one immediate family member). One way to show that you’re serious about Texas though is having passed the Texas bar (or be able to say that you’re registered to sit for the Texas bar). And if you are willing, what practice area? I’m involved in a few mentoring organizations here and might be able to set you up with someone in Dallas in your practice area.

      1. Agree with TXAtty.

        At my company we look at candidates with no connections to the area suspiciously – as in “Why does this person want to live here? Will they stay here or run screaming? Are they just looking for any job?” We haven’t brought very qualified candidates to interview because of this fact.

      2. I also agree with TXAtty. In my experience, Texas firms more than a lot of other big city firms tend to focus on what your connections to Texas are and what will keep you in Texas.

          1. Not to be snarky, but everyone except the low income women who have no family planning options due to the lovely Gov. Perry and the state legislature. What they have done to the state Medicaid population and low income women is reprehensible. I would not even vacation in Texas, much less take a job there.

      3. Agreed. My firm has lost several people in the last year or two that professed a dying love for Dallas but bolted once they found a job in their home market. The partners are now extremely suspicious of anyone without serious Dallas ties. It may not be this extreme at the firm you’re looking at, but I think you at least need to address it and be prepared to sell why you’ll fit in Dallas and not move back to your or your SO’s hometown. I realize this can be annoying if you hate your hometown (like I do) and there really is no threat of you moving back there, but because enough people do end up settling near where they grew up or where close family is, the precedent is set and it’s your job to overcome it.

      4. The firm practices in the areas of estate, trust, guardianship and fiduciary litigation.

        Any help is truly appreciated.

  14. Ok I need some serious advice, ladies. I read yesterday about the corporette who discovered a troubling Facebook post about a guy she was dating so here it goes…My sister recently got engaged. I knew that he had been married before, but we were led to believe he was already divorced. I JUST found out his divorce has not been finalized so he is technically still legally married. My sister knew and didn’t tell me. She asked me not to tell my parents and that it would finalized “very soon.” I feel like I would be participating in a lie and this is a very huge thing to be hiding. Also, she doesn’t seem to be getting that divorces are never simple and it might drag on for a while, putting her wedding dreams on hold. (She’s never been married). Would any of you tell our parents? Keep it a secret? I would feel awful hiding this. I let her know that this is very naive (and very unlike her!). Thoughts?

    1. Um, if she knows he’s still married and he’s en-route to divorce and is separated from is wife (and as you say, divorces can be messy especially in this economy) — then I’m not sure why this is really any of your business. Your sister is presumably an adult, so its her decision to make. You don’t say that you have any other concerns with this guy. So I’d just let it go. Unless of course on the actual wedding day you know he’s still married, then you might want to intercede. :-P

      1. Agreed. Not in a mean way at all but, butt out.

        On a more logical note, if you tell your parents and something goes wrong with your sister’s relationship a) she will not be happy with you and may blame you for telling your parents; and b) she will not feel that she can confide in you or talk to you and may stay in a bad-for-her situation longer than she should.

        This does somewhat depend on your relationship with your sister and your parents. My sister tells my mom EVERYTHING. I mean, things I would consider ridiculous because I’m a fairly private person (thus, loving the anonymous community of Corporette!) that I would never share with anyone much less my parents. So I just know that anything I tell her goes to my parents. If I don’t want them to know something, I don’t tell her. That may be you to your sister in which case, you have to ask yourself do you want to build trust with your sister or is it more important to bring your parents into the situation?

        Also, what could they really do anyway other than judge your sister kind of like you are?

    2. I don’t think it would be fair to your sister to tell your parents. While this is new information to her, it is something that she was previously aware of. If she is comfortable being engaged to a guy who is still getting out of his marriage, that is her decision. You are well within your rights to tell her your perspective on it, but I don’t think you should be interfering.

      My exception would be if your parents are paying for the wedding, a date has been set, and your parents are putting down deposits when the marriage might have to be postponed due to delays in the divorce. Then it has the potential to impact them financially. Otherwise, let your sister make her own decisions, even if you disagree with them.

    3. I would keep the secret and not tell the parents, at least not until I found out more information. Why has the divorce not been formalized? What’s causing the hold up? How long has he been separated from his ex? It could be simple or it could be complex. My parents split up and didn’t finalize their divorce for years. When they did, it was literally a matter of a few weeks start to finish. My mom remarried shortly thereafter, as was her plan. I would be more troubled by this if your sister didn’t know, but it sounds like her fiance was up front with her. I can understand why you’d be hurt she didn’t confide in you, but I wouldn’t assume the worst in the absence of other evidence.

    4. Not only are divorces messy, they can take a really long time even when they’re simple. An uncontested divorce in NY can take 6-9 months it to be approved because of the backlog. She knows the facts so trust her and let it go.

    5. I think your sister put you in an awful position by telling you this and then wanting you to keep it a secret. She may be fine with being engaged to a man who is still legally married but that doesn’t mean you’re comfortable with it. If it were me, I’d tell her just how uncomfortable I am by all this while also telling her that if asked flat out by our parents, I wouldn’t lie about it. Eg. “Did you know Jane’s fiance is still married?” Otherwise, I’d keep my mouth shut and tell her not to bring it up to me again until his divorce is finalized.

    6. I wouldn’t tell your parents (or anyone else). But I absolutely would encourage your sister to get her own attorney to review his divorce order and advise her on whether she needs a cohabitation and/or prenuptial agreement to protect herself from his past. At worst, she’ll spend a couple hundred dollars to learn she’s fine. At best, she’ll protect her assets and income from his past obligations (alimony, child support). Ask me how I know.

    7. I don’t think you should tell your parents. Your sister is an adult, and presumably knows more about the situation than she told you (i.e., what steps he’s taken to get divorced, etc.). Assuming that he really is in the process of getting a divorce, I don’t think you should get involved. You shouldn’t lie for her, but this isn’t the sort of thing that would come up in normal conversation.

    8. Thank you all so so much for your advice. I wasn’t planning on telling my parents, but I just want her to know what she is getting into. Something tells me, instinctively, that this is a bad idea all around but I can’t really articulate why that is. They have not been dating that long. Also, it will be hard to be excited about wedding planning now that I know this. It’s not going to come up because everyone thinks the divorce was final. He does have child support and alimony issues, so I wonder how this engagement will affect his ex-wife’s willingness to sign any papers. (She is vindictive, so I’ve been told.) I will definitely keep my mouth shut until its time to put deposits down, etc.

      1. If your sister already knows that her fiance’s ex-ing wife is vindictive, I think she should take that very seriously. I have read that one can expect divorcing people to act out for about two years because it is a period of high stress in one’s life, but that if the acting out lasts longer than that it will likely last forever because it is a personality trait and not a reaction to a difficult situation. That certainly has been our experience.

        If that seems to be the case in your sister’s constellation, and if there are step-kids involved, your sister could be in a for a long hard ride. She should not take this lightly. I would recommend that she be active about addressing this with her fiance, read books about it, talk to him with a counselor about their expectations concerning her role in parenting and talk to him with a lawyer about their expectations concerning finances and estate planning.

        Here are the things that helped us:

        1. We took an “Active Parenting” class. Michael Popkin developed the theory of active parenting and has written numerous books about it. Classes based on his books are offered all over the place. My fiance and I took “Active Parenting of Teens” when his kids were 13 and 18 through the local recreation department. I might have preferred “Active Parenting of Stepkids,” but it wasn’t being offered.

        2. We read and discussed Wednesday Martin’s, “Stepmonster: A New Look at Why Real Stepmothers Think, Feel, and Act the Way We Do.”

        3. We read and discussed Susan Wisdom’s, “Stepcoupling: Creating and Sustaining a Strong Marriage in Today’s Blended Family.”

        4. We found an exceptionally good therapist with a lot of experience with blended family issues.

        4. I read (and sometimes share with my fiance) Stepmom Magazine online. www DOT stepmommag DOT com.

        6. My fiance and I make sure that he and his kids get enough time alone without me AND that we all get enough time together to bond as a family.

        7. We read and discussed Louise Oxhorn and Lynne Oxhorn-Ringwood, “Stepwives: Ten Steps to Help Ex-Wives and Step-Mothers End the Struggle and Put the Kids First.”

        Good luck to your sister.

      2. It gives me the heebie-jeebies listening to this, because I do think that your sister is letting the passion of falling in love, and wedding sugar plums dancing before her eyes take over from the rational pragmatic side. Both sides of us are important, but balance is usually good.
        While there will always be exceptions to these general ideas, they have been around for good reason:

        (1) It’s usually not a good thing to marry someone you haven’t been dating that long…

        (2) ….especially if that someone has a very messy past that hasn’t been properly dealt with, with a new set of ground rules for civil behavior for all involved. Remember, there are civilians (the kids from his soon-to-be-ended first marriage) involved, so it’s good to tread carefully, if only for their sake.

        I would never want to date someone who was super-duper cozy/best-friendsies with his ex-gf, but I would also steer clear of someone whose exes all hated him, were “vindictive,” etc. It would suggest some amount of poor choice/bad judgment in him, but might also hint that he’d done a lot of these people wrong, to earn that kind of hatred. You don’t know what this guy did to his wife. All you know is from your sister’s reporting of what he self-reports as his ex-wife’s “vindictiveness.” Why exactly is the ex-wife so vindictive? Was it because he was a sh!tty listener? Was it because he was selfish? There could be any number of reasons beyond his implying that she’s just a b!tch. It really takes two to tango.

        3) I worry about the impulse control on a man who, as his marriage is crashing and breaking into pieces is instead going la-di-da having fun in the dating world. I assume he has a day-job. I’m reading all the time here that c*rporettes who are single (not messily divorcing) are too busy to date, and this dude who I assume has a day-job, is a parent, and was divorcing somehow made time to date and court your sister? Maybe he’s not so great on the personal responsibility thing. I wonder what his priorities are in life. Maybe I’m being too harsh on him, but it does seem like he has a lot of loose ends that have yet to be tied up in his old marriage and he’s already planning a wedding with a new woman?

        1. Susan and I agree that your sister should communicate explicitly with this guy and tread carefully. I just want to add one thing to what Susan mentioned (well, OK, two things):

          1. When mental illness is involved, it doesn’t take two to tango. So there is a small chance that the ex-ing wife isn’t reacting to sister’s boyfriend but is just being herself.

          2. On the issue of “how does he have so much time to work, parent, divorce and date at the same time,” I will also say that it is possible to take a measured, careful, thoughtful, slow approach (ie, seeing each other only when the kids are with their mom and you have both finished your work duties).

          My bottom line on all of this is that if your sister asks him, he should be completely willing to discuss all of this openly. That is what my husband did with me, and it all was and is fine. Had he balked, even slightly, at any of my questions, I would have walked immediately.

    9. What state is this in? Divorces can take a very long time in some states, long after the relationship is over and the couple has gone their separate ways. As an example – my parents started dating while my father was going through a divorce, dated for three years, were engaged for nine months, and ended up getting married ONE WEEK after his divorce was final. I don’t think this falls into the same category as the guy who was vacationing with his ex in December 2011, personally. And I can see why your sister would keep quiet about it – the ins and outs of his divorce are no one’s business.

      1. I was going to say this very thing. My now ex-husband and his first wife had been separated for two years before we even got together. They didn’t have children and went their separate ways and figured they would finalize the divorce when they got around to it. They had started divorce proceedings when we got together and were still officially married when we got engaged, but it wasn’t because they still had any relationship. Of course, maybe it should have been a sign to me since he met his third wife while we were still married (and not separated).

        1. How does that old adage go? If he cheats *with* you, he’ll cheat *on* you. Shouldn’t have been a surprise, really.

  15. Looking for tips on the car-buying process.

    My husband and I are buying a new car, which will be “my” car. Despite being in our 30s, neither of us have ever bought a car before, and I have never had “my own” car. (We currently share a car, which my husband drives to work, and we rarely use otherwise.) We have a good idea of what we are looking for in a car, but we are at a complete loss about where to start and how to be savvy. Any tips on the following or otherwise?

    1. Consumer Reports versus other buyers’ guides? How to be informed ahead of time?
    2. How much time should we devote to this? How many dealerships? How many test drives? How many days/weekends?
    3. General negotiating tips? How do dress or act to give us the best odds of good service and an appropriate price?
    4. Also, I’ve heard that women and minorities get worse deals. My husband is South Asian, and I think South Asians have a reputation for being willing to pay high prices and not negotiating (or, at least, that is my stereotyped impression based on watching my in-laws refusing to haggle and consistently paying more than I think they should. Apparently, my FIL paid sticker price for his last car. !!!!!) My husband definitely fits into this stereotype; he is visibly uncomfortably negotiating and thinks it unseemly. Obviously, I’m a woman. In addition, I’m visibly pregnant, which I think could make us “easier targets.” What can we do to mitigate these issues (i.e., pretend one of us has full power (which one?), play good cop/bad cop, have husband go back and negotiate the actual deal without me)? Bring in a white male friend to negotiate for us (only half kidding — I know people who have done this)?

    1. I’ve never bought a new car, so I don’t have advice for how many dealerships and test drives, but from talking to others I do know you can do the entire negotiating process via e-mail nowadays. As long as you know what kind of car you want, the salesman never needs to know your or your husband’s ethnicity, or that you’re pregnant. This would also give you time to craft each e-mail, so maybe your husband would feel better about negotiating with time to think about it.

    2. Watch out for nice car salesmen. The guy who sold me my car was super nice, and I paid way too much. I didn’t want to push back because he was so friendly. If you don’t know what kind of car you want, make a list of your needs/wants and spend several days going to dealerships test driving cars. Keep notes because otherwise all the cars will run together for you! Then go home and do your research on the cars. I just googled “car, year, review” and came up with plenty of reading material.

      I haven’t done this myself, but when my cousin was purchasing a car she knew she would be bad at negotiating in the moment. Instead, once she had picked the exact car she wanted, she set up a special email address and emailed all the dealerships in her state asking for their best price on the car/package she wanted. It worked out really well for her and she saved a lot of money.

      1. We bought a used car on Auto Trader, and it was a fabulous experience because you aren’t dealing with car dealers. I just called the seller on the phone, and we came to a mutually agreeable price within a couple of minutes. It was, of course, subject to taking the car to a dealer to get checked out, but it all came out fine. She lived in my city, so we just met up one afternoon to exchange the cashiers’ check and the car. It was a great experience.

        1. This. Also, please please please reconsider getting a “new” car. Getting one that’s off a 3-year lease will save you tons of money, and the first scratch you inevitably put on it won’t hurt nearly as badly.

          Signed,
          Sucker who wanted a “new” car for her first car and regrets it

          1. I’m sold. :) Unfortunately, my husband is not yet convinced. He can be very irrational about this type of thing, unfortunately.

          2. I worked in dealerships for years to pay off undergrad — a three year old vehicle is the way to go. Make sure it wasn’t a daily rental and hasn’t been in an accident. Take it to another garage for an inspection.

    3. Just my experience, but paying “sticker price” in and of itself is not a reason to shame someone. There are lots of ways to skin a cat. Negotiating extra options and financing is one of those ways. And depending on the car you want, you may end up paying sticker. We recently purchased my husband a car and there was a waiting list for that particular model. While we were able to negotiate perks in the financing based on our downpayment, etc., the ultimate price was right at sticker. And no, I do not feel “taken.”

      1. Didn’t mean to insult or state my point too broadly. It sounds like you got a difficult-to-find car with extra options, which was a good deal. That was, unfortunately, not the case with my FIL who, as my husband described it, walked onto the lot and said “I would like X car. What is the price?” Then took the price offered, paid cash, and left with the car. My husband kind of wants to do the same thing, and it gives me heart palpitations. :)

      2. Often financing rates are much better on new cars, and depending on the car, insurance rates can also be lower.

    4. Wait, seriously? Your in-laws are South Asian and don’t haggle? There are desis like that out there? I always thought the stereotype was the other way around. When my dad buys cars, he haggles the price down to $50 increments, it’s so embarassing. I drive my friends and family nuts when we go shopping in Chinatown or at desi clothing stores, trying to drive the prices down (and they *always* do – always bargain at desi clothing stores or at least get them to throw in free jewelry or something).

      My family has purchased three used cars in the past three years and it’s generally taken about a month or two to purchase each car. They would try out cars at a dealership, drive them around, ask questions and find out prices. And then, the craiglist hunt would begin and we’d save thousands of dollars that way. Test drive as often as you need or want to. You know what your budget is and how much you value for a certain car with the features you want. You don’t need to send in someone else – be a fierce mama bear and do the negotiating yourself if your husband can’t.

      1. Ha. This was my take-away from this, I had always thought the South Asian stereotype is that recent immigrants were so used to haggling that they would try to haggle at the grocery store. :-)

        1. My parents have been here for over 30 years and my dad *still* tries to haggle at the grocery store. #mylifeisdesi

      2. Ha! My ILs must be the exception. Maybe my husband’s skin color will fool the dealers into thinking he can negotiate, even though he has no idea how. :) I’ve shopped with my ILs many times, and they have never once, any of them, tried to haggle. My husband is even uncomfortable asking why something is priced as it is (hello: me negotiating with our horribly overpriced accountant).

        1. Hilarious–I agree, never heard of any South Asians who don’t haggle! I thought it was in our genes!

          1. Maybe I can use this to get him to be more savvy and stick up for us financially. :) My husband loves being Indian and uses the “this is how Indians do it” excuse for everything, all the time. In fact, my most compelling argument to him about why we should have a second kid (he is skeptical) is “All your Indian family friends have two kids. Indians don’t have only children.” And he.found.this.compelling. I swear.

            The least the man could do is use these “Indian genes” to get me a good deal on a car, right?

    5. I bought my first car last spring.

      1. I didn’t read any of the consumer reports, but I spent a lot of time browsing various car websites, trying to figure out what was important to me. I really wanted something similar to my old car, so I had an idea on size, drive style, etc.

      2. I think I devoted two weekends to the actual dealership/test drive thing. I went to four different dealerships, and tried 5-6 different cars. A couple of the dealers didn’t get my business because they were doing too much of the “hard sell” or were too busy hitting on me. At the last dealership (where I bought the car), the guy listened to what I wanted, wasn’t inappropriate, actually let me do a normal test drive without all of the sale hoopla, etc.

      3. I was dressed the same way I always dress on the weekends — sweater and jeans. I recommend not acting too desperate to get a car — like that episode of the Cosby Show with Sinbad :)

      4. I don’t know about the women/minorities thing. I’m a South Asian woman, but I did my negotiations myself, and still ended up paying well below sticker price. I would definitely check around to see what other dealerships can do for you regarding the price of your car, and get their offers in writing — that’s how I eventually got the final dealer’s price down.

    6. I can’t help much on research, but I have found consumer reports helpful. As for negotiating tips:
      1. After you research decide what you want and what you want to pay. Walk in and say I want x car at x price. Use the total price of the car NOT monthly payment. If they don’t want to work with you, walk out.
      2. See as many dealers as necessary until you find one you like and who wants to work with what you asked for.
      3. Walk in with your own financing. Even if you plan on financing through the d ealer it gives you more leverage and forces them to give you a better deal.
      4. Don’t be afraid to leave if you aren’t comfortable, even if you are about to sign the papers. If any salesman is rude or condescending leave (I had multiple men tell me I don’t want a stick shift!)
      5. Good luck!

      1. Good point on the financing. Interest rates are really low right now, but the rate my dealer offered me was not the lowest out there. I knocked probably 2% off the interest rate by lining up my own financing in advance.

    7. Post where you are and perhaps get recommendations for nice, fair dealers just like folks ask for referrals to doctors and house cleaners.

      I suggest that you figure out what type of car you’re looking for (minivan, large sedan, small commuter, etc), check consumer reports to see what cars in that category are good, and then visit the dealerships for test drives. Once you have test driven and know what you really want, look in the paper for the loss leader prices for those cars in the weekly automotive section. Return to the dealer of the car you want, and insist on the loss leader price, even if they say they already sold the “one at this price”. If they won’t give you that price, get up and leave. Make sure they have your contact info, and you will find that in a week or two the dealer calls you as he tries to make his numbers at the end of the month. Willingness to question EVERY little fee they quote you, and to get up and leave, will make or break your negotiation. Do not discuss the value of your trade in or what payments you can afford before you have settled on the price of the car, in writing.

    8. Been there (except not while pregnant)! My husband was very uncomfortable negotiating, but instead of calling him out on it (which would make him even more conscious of his lack of negotiating style) or even letting him in on my plan beforehand, I made up my mind to be the b____y wife who appeared to have the final say.

      My husband quickly saw the effectiveness of the approach, which entailed me barely giving the salesmen the time of day, and spending most of our sit-down time with the salesmen clicking away on my smartphone. I made a point of murmuring audibly to my husband that the quoted price was WAY over other dealerships’ advertised price and that we ought to go back to (insert other dealership here).

      In short, I think it was effective to come in looking like — and being — a knowledgeable, informed potential customer who cannot be taken for a ride (so to speak). Good luck to you!!

    9. Figure out what car you want. I do this by prioritizing certain features and then spiral out from there (do you want AWD? need room for a car seat? etc.)

      Once you know what car you want, go to www dot truecar dot com and enter the make/model/your zip code. This will tell you the price for sticker/invoice/dealer invoice (generally) and let you know what others have paid for similar cars. It will also give you a list of dealers in your area that will offer the car for X price.

      Email the dealer, “I am looking for X car. What is your best price/I will offer X/Truecar price is Y.” Negotiate everything over email so when you walk in you know how much you are paying/are willing to pay. Really, this makes it so much easier. Also, look at thier inventory and verify that they have the car you want in stock. It can be confusing if you negotiate X car for Y price, and then they only have X + certain features in stock when you actually get to the dealer. Research before you go, bring a folder of information with you and don’t be afraid to reference it. DO NOT BE AFRAID TO LEAVE to do more research or to go to another dealer. Also, do not be surprised if you end up knowing more about the car than the salesperson in terms of which models have which features, etc. (this happened to me and I am no expert when it comes to cars…)

      Also, obtain independent financing before going to the dealer (unless you are paying cash — BUT, if you are paying cash don’t let them know until the end because they make money off of you from financing). If they can meet/beat your financing then great, it will be more convenient. Otherwise, go with your independent pricing. If you have AAA check out their financing options.

      Also, if you are trading in a car (which doesn’t sound like it applies here) don’t let them know that until the end, either.

      Good luck! Just be persistent and imagine that you are negotiating everything for a very important and demanding client. You don’t deserve any less!

      1. This, but also do research online. You can find out whether the manufacturer is offering any subsidies (which is usually the only way to pay below dealer invoice because it doesn’t cost your local dealership anything, but if you don’t know about it, they will let you think this is a dealership concession) and/or offering financing deals. If you are planning on financing (or even if you aren’t), in this economy, you can get .9 or 0 APR financing from a lot of manufacturers. Zero percent is the equivalent of free money given the time value of money. Anyway, if the manufacturer of the car you are interested in has these options, I wouldn’t bother with researching private financing . We always buy new, as we are not heavy drivers and tend to keep our cars for ten plus years. I like the longer warranty, and free maintenance

        1. Agreed, WWM. However, you’d best know your credit score (general good advice) and be certain that you qualify for 0 or low APR before walking in and can meet the monthly payments on the sometimes accelerated term of the low APR loan (such as, 24 months v. 60).

          Also, be prepared for the extended warranty pitch when you finalize your purchase. The dealer often doesn’t tell you that don’t have to decide then and can usually extend the warranty any time before the initial warranty expires. They may also try to sell you a mantenance package. Just know what these things are and if you want them.

    10. Edmunds (dot) com is a website with lots of information and car-buying tips. I’d recommend spending some time poking around there. Also, your best weapon is your ability to walk away and negotiate with someone else- go in, test drive and negotate, then leave and see if another dealer will do better. Let the two dealers negotiate against each other for your business.

      I’d also do a little reading about the psychological tricks the dealers play to get the edge in negotiating- I found that very helpful. My favorite tip is to bring a stopwatch with you. One trick they will use is to tell you they have to take your offer “to the manager,” at which point, they will leave you sitting there for 20 minutes while they go in the back “to get approval.” The more time they make you sit there, the more deal bias comes into play. You have spent a lot of time on this deal, which increases your desire to come to an agreement, since you are more invested. The article I read suggested countering this move by bringing a stopwatch, and when the dealer says he has to go check with the manager, reply “OK, you have 4 minutes,” and start the stopwatch. It changes the dynamic and reduces their advantage.

      Good luck!

    11. First of all, you need to be confident that you will do a good job at this and get a fair price. But negotiating tends to be time-consuming, so don’t let it wear you down.

      Definitely start with Consumer Reports and get a sense of what kinds of cars you can choose to afford. The idea is to find out how much the dealer paid for the car, and then negotiate a price between that number and the sticker price.

      My dad, who is very good at this game, taught me a few lessons. Basically, drive a few and narrow it down to two cars within about $1,000 at two different dealers. Try not to fall in love with either car. Say you will take whatever color/options are on lot. Reiterate that you are negotiating the price “out the door” – that means there are no more fees or taxes or whatever that can be tacked on at the end. Do not discuss financing until the deal is done. (I used to say I was going through my credit union, so the salesman would stop trying to make the sale based on payments of $269 a month, or whatever.)

      I totally would present yourself as the sole decision maker. I mean, you and your husband should choose the cars together but I recommend going back yourself to do the deals. When the salesperson asks for contact info, which they all do when you test-driving, provide only your info.

      Now, here’s the crazy part. You go back and forth between those two dealerships until you get the best deal you can. It might take three trips to each dealership. I’ve seen people do it in a weekend, but it’s more realistic to take a couple of weeks. And just keep walking out the door until the salesperson stops lowering the offer. (No need to be unpleasant. Just keep saying, “This is what I am willing to pay.”) Sometimes they call the next day with an even lower offer!

      I understand why not everyone wants to do this nonsense, but for me it was worth it to save, like, three grand on a small car. The time I took to negotiate cost me less than the money I saved. I don’t know why that I think you getter a better deal in person than via e-mail (as others suggest), but I do. YMMV.

    12. Wow, this is really helpful so far, everyone. A lot of this actually counterintuitive to me. Like, I would have assumed it was an advantage if we came in and told them we could pay cash, but now I see that would be a huge mistake. Please keep the advice coming, and, obviously, don’t assume I know anything about this!

      One follow-up question. My husband’s car is 15 years old — the car he got in high school — but runs like a champ (Lexus). He kind of wants a new one, too, which I can sympathize with. We are discussing whether this is something we want to take on financially. Assuming we do … my husband has suggested that if we are buying two cars at the same time from the same dealership, we will get better deals on them then, say, waiting two years to purchase the second car. Any thoughts on this? I am worried that expressing interest, but not need, in purchasing a second car could signal that we have plenty of disposable income and end up hurting us.

    13. I’m from an automotive family (although not a dealership family) and here’s my brain dump:

      Consumer Reports is a great resource for car purchasing. Dealers will pretend like CR’s data isn’t accurate, but it generally is. The annual car issue usually has pricing info, including what the dealer pays the manufacturer for each vehicle, which puts you in a much better negotiating position. When a sales dude tells you something along the lines of “But at that price, we’d lose money on this car” you’ll know if it’s BS or not.

      You’ll almost always get better deals at the end of the month (and relatively speaking, at the end of the week). You’ll also get better deals at the end of a model year, as long as you don’t mind buying something that’s sat around unsold for a long time, and don’t mind driving an old model when a new one is just about to come out (or has just come out). Query whether you’re better off buying a used car in that scenario, but that’s a different issue.

      Oh and please for the love of Cheeses, do NOT get suckered into an extended service contract, VIN etching, undercoating . . . most of that stuff is a shameful waste of consumers’ money.

      1. Ooh, if there are more, can we make a list of all of those “sucker” add-ons? The only one I’ve heard is “nitrogen” tire fill.

      2. When I bought my first car, I thought I did such a great job negotiating … then, after I had already started signing paperwork, I got taken into a separate room and was told to pick one of several extended service contract options. The dealer assured me that this was required; I could choose which specific package I wanted. The monthly payment I’d worked so hard to achieve got increased by almost $100 and it wasn’t until years later that I realized what had happened. Never again!

        1. This is such a common tactic! You agree to the terms with a salesperson, then they put you in a little room with another person who gives you the hard sell on all these other services and features. They’re not mandatory, most of the time they’re not even recommended, and dealers are almost always making money hand over fist through them.

          IMO the extended service contracts are the worst, especially the ones that promise money-back guarantees of your premiums if you never make a claim; that whole industry is falling apart, and consumers are getting burned.

      3. My husband and I just bought a new car, and used the “Truecar.com” website extensively. It incorporates actual pricing information from other people who have bought the same model year car/same features you are considering. It give you the low/mid/high range of prices that people have recently paid. We offered the low end, and were rejected, and we walked away from the deal. The dealer called us several times but did not offer to come down in price, so I think we were at the very low end of pricing (e.g. they couldn’t make much of a profit). We finally bought the car (for the same price) about two months later, when the car manufacturer offered a special incentive. So, I would recommend Truecar.com highly.

    14. I’ve purchased two cars from dealers (one on my own, one with DH). My advice is:

      – do your homework. I like cars.com and edmunds.com. Know what the car should cost (w add-ons) before you set foot in the dealership.
      – test drive everything, even cars you are “eh” on. You never know.
      – be prepared to walk away if your needs (including price) are not met. When we bought our last car (off-lease Audi), I had already test-driven one but we were at a different dealership. I told the sales guy, “I want this car for $X. Now, you can haggle with me all you want, or you can make a sale in 45 minutes flat. Your choice.” It worked.
      – know the stock at your dealer and the dealers within a 30 minute drive (its usually their website). If your dealer is not going to meet your price, say thanks and let them know that you’re going over to their competitor.
      – go shopping at the end of the month, when the sales guys need to make their quotas.

      My DH is similar in that he is not a negotiator. When we bought our last car together, the sales guy asked DH all the questions. DH would then turn to me, and say, “well?” and then I would answer. The sales guy never once addressed me directly. Its bizarre but that’s how it is.

    15. Here’s what I did.

      1. Figure out exactly which car you want to buy. If that means going to various dealerships to do test drives, do it. I set up appointments at various dealerships in an “auto mall” 45 minutes to one hour apart. Then, do the test drive, and leave to go to your next appointment.

      2. Go to Edmunds.com. Check out the “invoice price” of the make and model you want. When you have a few hours (preferably near the end of the month and on a weekday), give edmunds.com your name, email and phone number.

      3. You will be inundated by calls from the Internet marketing department of the dealerships. Ask each a few questions about the car to figure out who is a serious salesperson who has power. If you find a good salesperson, tell them that you’ll pay $100 over the invoice (not MSRP) price on Edmunds. Over the phone, also negotiate for anything else they add on (e.g., security system, stain resistant seat upholstery). Start by asking for 33% off if you are interested in the add-ons.

      4. If they say “great! come on in”. Go. Note, this isn’t the best price you will get but it is a decent price and about what dealerships will normally negotiate down to.

      5. Take a test drive and if the sales person is pushy or you don’t like them, leave. I find it effective to just start digging through my purse for my keys or to start playing with my keys and looking at the door.

      6. Buy the car.

    16. Go test drive your car, get your info re price / financing / warranties /etc. but NEVER ever ever buy in the same trip. Always walk off the lot and come back, no matter what they say (“I have other interested buyers, it might not be here tomorrow!” “Because of the earthquake in Japan, I don’t know when I’ll get more in if this one sells” <– one I actually heard). My mother gave me this advice, and I could just kick myself for not listening.

      Extended warranties are likely a rip-off, so don't let them sucker you into one as you're finalizing the deal. Don't let them sucker you into *anything* as you're finalizing the deal– Scotch-guarding, warranties, etc. Those are all profit centers they spring on you as you're worn down (because the process takes forever) and wanting to leave with your car. You probably don't need whatever they're offering, and you most certainly can get it done cheaper somewhere else if you do your research.

      Here's how I got screwed. I thought I did all my research on my Honda Fit. But when I got to the dealership, the price was significantly higher than what the dealer advertised on the internet. Dealer claimed it was because, for every car Honda sent them, the dealer automatically "added on" several items– hand-painted pin-striping, window tinting, and a cargo container in the back. Well, guess what? That pin-striping was a sticker decal, and window tinting comes standard with every Honda Fit. The cargo container? $150 online. But I didn’t know any of that at the time, despite having done (I thought) a good job researching the car. So even though I bargained the dealer down from what he initially wanted to charge me for these items, I still got royally, royally screwed. Steams me to this day.

      I think the biggest thing is that it’s easy to get sucked in, and you *must* be prepared to walk away at any point. Don’t be embarrassed about it. It’s not unseemly.

      Also if your husband is visibly uncomfortable negotiating, leave. him. at. home. This is war.

      1. “Also if your husband is visibly uncomfortable negotiating, leave. him. at. home. This is war.”

        This is probably my favorite piece of advice so far. :)

    17. 1. Pick a budget. Stay within the budget. NO MATTER WHAT. A lot of times dealers will ask you what your interested in and then show you a higher model and say I can cut you a deal and its only 200 more a month. Then you go home and realized you’re out 200 more a month for years to come.
      2. Research cars you like and dig around what they’re going for online. I’d encourage you not to go new, especially if you don’t drive very much. Print out what you like and bring it with you.
      3. Always walk away if you feel uncomfortable. You can even say, I’m going to go to dealer X down the street to look at a similar car.
      4. If all else fails and you can talk your husband into going used, go to Carmax. Really there the sticker price is the price. You end up paying a bit more, but if it makes you more comfortable then go with it.

      1. Pick a budget based upon the total you want to spend not just the monthly cost. Dealers will offer to extend the time of your loan to lower your payments. In my experience, it also helps to walk away. We knew what price we wanted to pay and the dealer was not working with us so we walked out. He called me every day for the next week trying to negotiate. We also lied to him about what another dealership was offering. Within the week, he dropped his price by 2K.

    18. Also, if you’ve got cars to trade in… do your research before hand on kbb.com re the trade-in value of your car. Consider selling your car to a private party instead of trading in– you always get more $$ that way. It takes more leg work, but it can be done. In fact, I’m going to brag on myself: I sold my Audi TT to a private party a few years ago for more than Kelley Bluebook value and significantly more than what I had left on my loan. Cha-ching! Made several thousand more than the Audi dealership wanted to offer me.

    19. The one add on you want if you are buying new with no down payment or rolling over debt from another vehicle is to get GAP insurance. Otherwise, when your car depreciates as you drive it off the lot and you total it, you will owe the bank more than your insurance will pay you for the car.

    20. I agree with Pippit’s suggestion — Edmunds website. It will tell you what people are paying for the car you want to purchase now, in your area. Very useful. Plus, don’t buy any of the extras like “gap insurance” and road hazard, clear coat, etc. If you want those products, get them elsewhere for much less, like from your own insurance company and an auto club. The dealer will get you to agree to a price and then try to sell you those extra items at the end to try and up the profits. Say no, no matter how low the price seems when they break it down to a monthly payment.

  16. Wow, that is stressful and I completely sympathize. I and dh were both in similar (or worst) situation financially with both of us sitting home laid off.

    We were extremely frustrated as you can imagine, but we both made a pact to not fight ever. Instinctively we knew that our fights in such situation were sure to escalate to the level your are describing.
    What I am trying to say is -actively working at not fighting was the only thing that saved our sanity – especially at super aggravating times when we received our property tax bill and it had gone up because the district school teachers had voted themselves a raise!

  17. TJ – do you wear maxi dresses to work? How do you make them look professional? I am not ready to go tightless yet but it’s too warm for tights so have been wondering about maxi dresses. Any styling tips? What materials could pass of as semi-professional? (not a very conservative or corporate office)

    1. I’m a conservative Muslim chick in a business casual office and I’m grappling with this. I routinely wear ankle length abayas/jilbaabs/burkhas/whateverthey’recalled but I feel awkward about maxi dresses. Too many maxi dresses are too casual (made of t-shirt material) or too dressy (nice slinky georgette in bright colors or too reminiscient of date night). They just look too relaxed for the office to me but maybe it’s just my office? I don’t think throwing a cardigan or blazer over a maxi dress makes it suddenly office appropriate but I’m eager to see if someone else has figured it out!

      1. I haven’t. I love long dresses, but the only time I have worn one in my office is when I have changed at the end of the day and headed out the door. Today I am wearing a slightly past the knees dress and even that feels a bit awkward.

        FWIW, though, and I really hope this doesn’t come off as snarky because that’s not how I mean it at all, but I also don’t get when people say it’s too warm for tights when it’s in the low 70s and not humid. I understand the sentiment on hot summer days but in early spring? To me, there is a difference btwn warm enough to not wear something and too warm to wear something, but maybe that’s just me. If you really can’t stand wearing tights in this weather though and don’t want to go tightsless, I’d just wear pants.

        1. It’s in the high 60s-low 70s here in DC, and very humid. I think tights would be quite uncomfortable, but didn’t feel quite like bare legs this morning so — knee high boots! Not appropriate for every office, I know, but mine is pretty casual so dress (or skirt) to about the knee or slightly below (I totally do not get why a skirt just below the knee would be inappropriate??) + knee high boots = pretty comfortable. I do like to wear the Target version of spanx under dresses and skirt for a bit of coverage and smoothing, also adds a little warmth when necessary. Don’t love the control-top aspect of these, but oh well – maybe I need bloomers.

          1. I think people just have different comfort levels. To me, tights and regular shoes is fine in this weather, but the idea of wearing knee high leather boots right now is enough to make me swoon.

      2. I would never take sides against Ru on matters of style or anything else, but I think (depending on the office, and depending on what flatters your body type) even a jersey maxi dress or skirt can be profesh if you pair it with a deconstructed, long, equally flowy cardigan, especially with a belt.

    2. I love maxi dresses for outside of work, but sorry, I do not feel comfortable wearing them to my job :\ and I don’t work at a very conservative or corporate office, either.

    3. I’m not sure there is a way to make them look professional–I’m in a generally casual and creative work environment without any real dress code but a maxi skirt? If one of my team were wearing one, I would raise an eyebrow. Maybe on the Friday before a long summer weekend, but otherwise? I think another alternative would be better.

    4. I worked with a woman who could pull off a maxi dress like no other. She wore it with a belted cardigan and looked fantastic. I tried pulling that outfit together once and looked silly. Not sure what her secret was!

    5. A maxi dress would have been ok at my previous office (small research institute affiliated with a university), especially on Fridays, and especially if dressed up with a belted top (cardigan, jacket). But summer dresses were absolutely the norm there, and we were mostly women in the 23-40 age range. It would most probably not be ok at my current office (business casual government office) – at least I would be pretty surprised if I saw someone show up in one. I can’t see how it would work at a law office, even on Fridays. I agree with Ru about the too casual/too dressy fabric issue.

    6. Thank you all! I am not a big fan of maxi skirts but after umpteen slideshows on refinery 29 showing how to style maxi skirts, I wondered if I was missing out on something. Glad to hear that the hive doesn’t consider them professional! And for me, wearing tights has less to do with the actual weather. I don’t like to show my bare legs and love fall and winter because I can wear dresses with tights. But come spring/summer, I feel like I have to retire my dresses because I’d look ridiculous wearing tights with them when it’s sunny out.

    7. I’ve never seen a maxi dress I would consider appropriate, even for my now-casual office environment.

    8. My secretary wears them a lot and I always think she looks pulled together. She tends to wear ones in solid colors with a cute camisole underneath and then a cardigan over it.

    9. I know this is sooo late, but I have a Rachel Pally 3/4 sleeve maxi-dress that I wear to work, and it’s amazing, and the HR director has complimented me on it (so it passes the work dress code). I think the problem with so many maxi dresses I’ve seen is that the necklines are not quite appropriate, they can often be shapeless, and they’re often too bright. My dress has a bateau neckline, longer, fuller sleeves, a distinct waist (the top drapes over the elastic waistband), and it’s a light brown with maroon feather print fabric.

  18. Can we play the what-are-you-wearing game? I love reading what others are wearing (plus I wore something cute today!)

    I am wearing a vibrant blue cardigan over a white, sleeveless button-up blouse from H&M with grey trousers (recently purchased from AT) plus open-toe (yeah spring!), brown wedges. Accessorized with camel-colored belt, brown watch, & simple stud earrings

    1. I feel like we always play this when I’m working from home…and wearing jeans and a sweatshirt!

      But hey, I’m going to a networking event later tonight, so I have to put on a suit then. :-)

    2. MCA, your gray trousers are reminding me that I still need a nice, gray suit. Since the one I found online at Macy’s for such a deeply-discounted price turned out to be SPARKLY. I ask you. Nowhere in the product description did it say “SPARKLY gray tweed.” And that’s kind of a thing that a person would want to know. Nothing against sparkles, but ummmm not what I was looking for.

      Other than that, I’m wearing a blue-and-white checked J. Crew button-down, with a navy AT pencil skirt. I belted it with a green, navy, and white silk scarf, to tie in my kelly green open-toed flats. Emerald and diamond earrings, gold signet ring. I’m surprised my outfit is this good today, because I was a hot mess this morning.

      1. It’s breaking records hot up in the great north, so today I’m wearing a tea length jersey brown skirt, brown and black snakeskin flaps, a black sleeveless scoopneck blouse (a tank basically but at least its silk), cream cardigan and a brown/black/cream/blue/lime green silk scarf to tie it all together. Carried my grey Pippa today, with gold MJ bow studs in my ears.

      2. I have a gap in my wardrobe, because it is devoid of sparkly suits. I wonder what situation would result in needing a sparkly suit?

        Regardless, I’m wearing a navy sheath dress from Theory, a camel cardi from H&M, nude nylons, and a pair of franco sarto black patent pumps.

        I’m not really big into accessories, but I feel like I should wear more of them, because my outfit sound super umm…bland.

        1. You would wear your sparkly suit when you were crusading for justice!! Or just feeling a bit sparkly that morning. Or dressing up as a business formal vampire.

          All perfectly reasonable things to do!

          1. “Or dressing up a a business formal vampire.”

            Seriously. I have to do this more often.

    3. The Skirt in storm gray, super-sheer, short-sleeve tunic top from BR outlet printed with little robins for the first day of spring (black cami under), string of tiny deep red “pearls,” pointy-toed red patent slingbacks and scandalously and only slightly self-c0nsciously bare legs. (Over 80 in Ohio today, woo-hoo!)

    4. A black pencil skirt and hot pink cashmere short-sleeve sweater, both from Ann Taylor, with a gold bib-style necklace, black tights and black wedge pumps from Naturalizer. I just got the sweater yesterday, and it’s really perfect for this spring weather DC is having.

    5. Black and white Ann Taylor patterned sheath dress with pockets (!) and interesting neckline. Black cashmere cardigan. Black Aerosole wedges and bare legs.

    6. The Skirt in dark blue, gray/white/black print shell, coral cardigan, opera length pearl necklace with a gold bow (kate spade), and gray wedges. I rushed out the door without putting on my favorite twisty gold ring.

      1. I’ve been eyeing that necklace for a while now. How do you like it? Does the bow end up at the bottom of the necklace all the time?

    7. I’m wearing the gray donegal tweed skirt from Talbots (70% off, the store closest to me is closing = insane sale), a lace-top tank in a teal color from the Limited, and a new black cardigan from banana republic that I got with at 50% off coupon last week – it’s the one with a swirly-type gathering at the bust (I know, terrible description, but I can’t figure out what to call it).

      I went bare legged for the first time this season (slight naked feeling at first, I’m now over it), and I’m wearing black leather Tahari flats from DSW. Also, a long silver necklace with a leaf pendant-type-thing. I feel somewhat cute today. Better than usual, at least.

    8. always love this game, even on “meh” days (kind of like today). black wide-leg trousers, citron (bright, almost neon, yellow-green) tippi sweater from j.crew, black blazer with off-white tipping, black pointy-toed pumps. rose gold mk watch, wedding set/blue topaz yurman petite albion ring, silver monogram necklace layered with longer silver chain with spaced out rhinestones/cubic zirconia, pearl studs (oops – don’t match). hair is up in a ponytail…i could NOT sleep last night and took a 2:30am shower in the hopes of helping the cause. (it didn’t…i don’t look too bad for having gotten about an hour of sleep.)

    9. Dark red pencil skirt, cream cami, camel cardi, cream lace tights, brown pumps, and a faux gold & pearl necklace.

    10. Black and white pleated blouse with a portrait collar worn with a black pencil skirt, red cashmere cardigan and belted with a patent black belt. Finished off with a multi-color delicate necklace and black pumps. It feels good to be bare-legged.

  19. I love that blazer, but the Boden alternative is even prettier and would look lovely with navy pants.

    Any advice from NYC ‘rettes? I left my coat and wristlet in a cab, including my iPhone. Is there any hope of getting it back, even after the phone died? I took a town car from Manhattan to Queens, but I don’t remember the company or cab number.

  20. Kind of random TJ. What do you think of women running (or otherwise exercising in public) wearing shorts and a sports bra? I run shirtless as soon as the temperature goes over 75, and have always thought this was a complete non-issue (except for the time my HS cross country coach stole all the girls’ shirts so we had to be half-naked for the rest of practice, to try to shame us into being more modest/ladylike/barf, but that’s neither here nor there). But apparently people other than my whack-job coach disagree! Would be interested to hear what everyone else thinks about this.

    1. I do it all the time, in the summer – well, i’ll put i this way. I USED to do it all the time in the summer in high school and college – I ran track in college and ran a lot, and it was never a big deal. I was running hard in the middle of july, come on. I also do it at the gym, on the treadmill occasionally. I have since moved to DC, and feel much stranger about doing it, for so many reasons – the catcalls are much worse here than my nice little suburban towns, but i also have a fear of running into someone from work or that I know. I personally see no problem with baring my midrift while I exercise – i work hard for it, and i exercise very hard…but I worry that it’s not exactly professional or becoming of a late 20 something. But, usually my body wins out and i get hot and end up going just sports-bra for those really hot summer DC days. I have had friends in college say kind of back handed complimenty things to me about it, when i’d run. Some people thought i was trying to show off or something, but I think anyone who is exercising hard knows that the most important thing is to be comfortable and have functional clothing – so I say go for it, as long as you are comfortable with it.

    2. I’m never offended by someone doing this (though for my own runs I’m much more covered). I say so long as you’re not doing a work-sponsored “fun run” or something where you’re likely to run into coworkers/business contacts, etc, you’re totally fine.

      That said – I *do* get skeeved out by the women who run shirtless on the treadmill in my (air-conditioned) gym. Something about being THAT close to a half-naked stranger in an area that doesn’t make you prone to overheating bugs me.

      1. Actually, the treadmill makes you super prone to overheating because the air does not circulate. When you are running outdoors, the air moves over you as you pass through it. On a treadmill, you stay in one place and do not move through the air.

        That said, I have never run in just a sports bra (but I’m busty, so it would be pretty scandalous). But, if I was ever tempted to, it would be on the treadmill where I sweat x 3 what I sweat outdoors.

    3. That coach sounds like a creep. I’m in the “not a big deal at all” camp, with one exception: doing yoga in the middle of a farmer’s market or other major thoroughfare. Happening to run by in a sports bra, when you clearly are in your own zone, is your business. But I feel a little uncomfortable when, for example, people (any age or gender) are stretching their crotches in everyone’s face wearing, essentially, spandex hot pants. If nobody is watching, whatever, but the grossness is that men gather ’round and have icky looks on their faces. I wouldn’t want to be on either side of that, and I don’t even feel comfortable walking by and trying to ignore.

      1. Eek, people do that? I’m obviously in the wear-whatever-makes-you-feel-comfortable camp, but the thought of doing yoga or something in a public place while wearing non-clothes makes my skin crawl.

        And yeah, that coach was a definite creepster. When I started running I had the best coach ever, but then he left because his wife’s job moved (just as proof of his awesomeness, he was the stay-at-home dad to his lawyer wife; now he writes and illustrates children’s books), and we got stuck with Mr. Shirt-Stealer. Downgrade.

        1. Whenever it’s nice out in NYC, people spread blankets and lounge in their bathing suits or the like out in Central Park or Union Sq. on the grass, and without fail there will be a few middle aged men who just stand around holding upside down books and magazines and staring.

          But, as for the running, I am firmly in the run as you want to camp. There is actually a guy I see around a lot who runs in leggings, sometimes see-through stocking leggings, and a thong bodysuit and although he attracts a lot of unwanted attention, I always think more power to him.

    4. It sometimes strikes me as more of a “look at my body” behavior than one that’s done purely for comfort. There are many ultra-lightweight performance tank tops (fitted or loose) that do a great job keeping a runner comfortable and cool.

      I don’t really mind the shorts and sports bra look when I notice it from a distance, but it makes me a little uncomfortable when I pass a neighbor on the sidewalk and she’s wearing just a sports bra. I suppose it’s no different than a swimsuit top, but the difference (to me) is that’s just how swimwear *is,* whereas there are alternatives for runners.

      1. lol like Kelly on Real Housewives of NY, running down the middle of Fifth Ave in traffic, wearing booty shorts and a sports bra.

    5. I personally have no problems with it (though I have too much flab to do it comfortably myself). But I do remember when one of my sporting teams used to go on Spring Break training trips in the south, we’d use high school sporting fields and one of the requirements/rules was always that the girls had to wear shirts. Which always made us laugh, because we wondered if this had been an issue in the past (people borrowing their fields and not wearing shirts).

      Meh — I assume its a regional thing. Also, I don’t understand why your coach stealing your shirts would make you be more modest? That’s confusing…

      1. Having to walk around school (like, stretching with the boys’ team, weight room, to the locker room, stuff like that) half-naked was supposed to teach us to feel shame, so we’d never want to take our shirts off again. Like I said, he was a whack-job.

        1. It was a MALE coach!! Okay, in the modern world this would result in him being fired!!

          1. This was like, 2005. He didn’t articulate it as clearly as I did, but it was pretty obvious. We all kind of took it as “NBD, we’ll just find somewhere else to hide our shirts” at the time. Don’t think anyone even mentioned it to a parent in more than passing. I only realized way later how f*cking creepy it was.

    6. It gets an eye roll from me but its not a huge deal. I don’t get the point b/c I live in a city so always want to minimize the attention I get from city people- but to each his own.

      (btw I shirtless men get the eye roll too its not just because its female)

      1. Yeah. I think it’s the setting that counts IMO. Shirtless/sports bra jogging at or near the beach or in a park setting? Fine. Jogging shirtless in the city/concrete jungle? Weird and overexposed.

    7. I regularly see a man who is in his seventies (at least) jogging. He is almost always shirtless, wearing only short running shorts, socks, and shoes. It doesn’t matter whether or not I know him, or he is trim vs. flabby, or how close I am when I walk/drive by, or if he is inside or outside. The man is running. Let him wear running clothes. And technical t-shirts are not required for running any more than wet suits are required for swimming. If you don’t believe me, watch Spirit of the Marathon—the pros wear almost nothing when they run.

      1. Agreed – I bet a million dollars during the summer olympics, the pro women will be wearing spankies (basically, bathingsuit bottoms) and sports-bra like tops. If they do it, it’s not showing off – it’s because that is what is the most functionally appropriate garmet for competition. Obviously, we all can’t look like Kara Goucher, but if it works for her, i’m game. Sometimes, on those 100 degree days, the thought of any extra clothing, even a light singlet, is too much.

    8. I may be alone here, but I don’t think men or women should run shirtless. I find it jarring, too much skin in public/not at the beach.

      My husband – who ran cross country – thinks this is silly of me.

      It may also be that the people in my area who do this aren’t always in the best shape.

      1. I think it’s jarring too, regardless of what kind of shape the person is in. It’s not that I’m scandalized, it’s just that I’m thinking, “Wow, you are almost nude, just running down the sidewalk. That’s kind of odd.” If you want to do it, more power to you, but that’s what will be running through my head if I see you.

    9. Living in a hot climate, I see this a lot and don’t think anything of it. I do my cardio (treadmill) at home so I never wear a shirt (just long bike shorts and a sports bra). It does get hot, despite air conditioning and a fan blowing on me. Only my cat sees my flab.

      That said, when I was thinner and still able to really run outdoors, I once went running on a rail trail in the woods near my Dad’s house. It was so humid in the woods that my shirt felt like it was weighing me down and it was deserted so I just finally took it off. Sure enough, on my way back, an entire family of Mennonites on bicycles passed me. The mother looked like she was going to jump off her bicycle and kill me on the spot. So embarrassing!

    10. Mostly doesn’t bother me, though I’m jealous I can’t pull it off! For those ladies who can pull it off, more power to you–run in what is comfortable!

      The only time I get annoyed is when it is the young uns at the gym who are there to flirt. I’m talking about the ones wearing clothes too skimpy to really do anything other than show skin. There aren’t many of these and I only get annoyed because they’re usually walking on the treadmill while texting and not really working, while I wait for an open treadmill.

      That coach sounds like a creeper.

    11. I don’t like it. I don’t understand how much hotter you could actually get with a tank on (especially those that moisture wick and keep you cool). Do I judge other runners? Eh, probably a little. It is a personal preference. I prefer to be a bit more covered.

    12. Doesn’t bother me. I passed three shirtless people on my way to work this morning. It’s how I know the weather’s getting nice!

    13. I do it all the time. In fact, this weekend was my first of the year (did hill repeats when it was 80 outside). It is so much cooler and more comfortable, especially because you then actually get the benefit of any nice breezes. No matter how technical the fabric is, it’s still there, wet and heavy and insulating. I have some of those fitted sports bra tank top things, but really I don’t like them because they always end up riding up or the hem touches my torso in a way that I’m awkwardly conscious of and fiddle with the whole run. Plus, because I have a long torso, they never cover my belly button anyway, so really, what’s the difference.

      And as far as looking professional – I’m on my own time, doing something productive, the nips aren’t showing and because I’m on the A-Team there isn’t much going on anyway. Besides, it’s showing no more than a bathing suit, and I’d certainly never not swim at my gym or community pool just because I might run into a coworker.

      I will say, though, that when I do this, I make sure to wear a dark or brightly colored, obviously-it’s-a-sports-bra top and I usually match it to my shorts. I also don’t do this with any that might be stretched out or looking faded. It’s always opaque and I try to make sure it’s very intentional looking.

      1. Sconnie, I have a really long torso too, and I finally found some fitted sports bra tanks that go another 3-4 inches past my belly button and *don’t* ride up — they are Lululemon; I think the Power Y tank. Just if you want to try some.

        I run in these all the time. It’s very bare decolletage/shoulders but with midriff covered. But I also have no problem running in just a sports bra if I’m already out and get overheated. I’m usually on a path near the Bay where there are tons of people out and about running/walking/biking/playing with their dogs so I’m usually not the only one . . . if it’s hot, I would still take the longer shirt off and tie it around my waist on a neighborhood run, though. And in Hawaii, just a sports bra, no question.

    14. I think that both wearing and not wearing a shirt in hot weather is normal. However, I do choose sport bras that have a bit more coverage, with thicker straps and larger area. Some “sports” bras are basically tiny bikinis and I would not be comfortable running in them.
      I generally wear a tank over my sports bra because I do a lot of my running leaving from work and I would not be comfortable having a coworker see me going down the hall without a shirt. If I am running on the weekend in really hot weather I do not wear a tank.

  21. TJ:

    Now that it’s spring, do I have to retire my flannel skirt suit until next fall? It’s my favorite, most flattering suit (dark grey), and I would really love to be able to wear it for my appellate argument in early April (assuming it’s not really warm that day), but don’t want to be totally inappropriate. Just an FYI, my appellate argument is at one of the appellate divisions in upstate NY.

    Thanks ladies!

    1. I think you would be fine for April in upstate New York. If you were in a place where you would be sweltering in flannel, I might feel differently. Plus, courthouses tend to be cold!

      But then again, I don’t really believe in rigid rules for matching fabrics to calendar dates. So take my opinion for what it’s worth. :)

      1. I’m in upstate and its been so warm here lately. But, in upstate NY, it could snow next week, so I’d gauge it more on the temperature than the time of year. Today, its 75 degrees and I think flannel would look out of place.

    2. Thanks for the responses. I guess I’ll pay attention to the weather report before I pack my suit (it’s an overnight trip for me.)

  22. Help, please.

    I share a secretary with my supervisor, the General Counsel of our college campus. I am the only other attorney on campus. In the past seven years, we’ve been through five secretaries. (In the ten years I was practicing before I came here, I had two.)

    Our new secretary joined us two months ago. Yesterday, she confessed to me that she spent most of the weekend talking to her husband and mom about how to deal with the GC and how long she should wait it out before quitting. Her issues tracked everything the others have told me about (and what I have personally experienced from) our GC. (For regular readers, I am the one who wrote about being told not to write emails late at night.) In other words: condescending comments, unavailability to answer questions, micro-managing, rude behavior etc.

    What to do?

    * Is it my job to “protect” my secretaries? I can’t even protect myself.

    * Although we employ 13,000 people, we are essentially a small campus. If our secretary goes to HR, the GC will know.

    * The GC is at the end of her career and is not going to change. Nor will anyone talk to her about this.

    What should I, can I, do?

    1. If your campus is anything like mine (and it sounds like it is) there’s nothing to do. If no one will talk to her about her behavior or establish any standards, her behavior is not going to change. All you can do is do your very best to balance her bad behavior out with your secretary in order to hopefully give her a tolerable work environment.

    2. I am sorry about your situation. But I am glad to hear my campus isn’t the only one where it is *impossible* for someone who has horrible behavior to get fired.

        1. YES! I don’t understand it. Especially as our budgets are being cut, and no one is willing to make the tough decision to let go of someone who never does any work. It makes me crazy!

    3. You aren’t required to protect the secretaries, but it will help a lot if you let the new one know that you are aware of the issues, give her tips working with the GC effectively, and perhaps make yourself more available to answer questions, etc. Knowing that she is not alone in her concerns and frustrations may go a long way in helping her just get used to the GC and not take the behavior personally, since it sounds like the GC treats eveyrone like cr*p, not just the secretary.

    4. Does your campus have some sort of HR or ethics hotline that the secretary can complain to anonymously?

      1. Yes. But what would she say? Unless she identifies her boss by name, the hotline people can’t do anything. And once she identifies her boss by name, then what happens? I’m really not trying to be difficult; I’m hoping that someone who isn’t as close to it as I am can see a viable option here.

    5. Having been the secretary of a crazy boss I think it’s important to, not necessarily protect this person, but let them know they are not crazy. Tell her if she leaves you will still give her a good recommendation (if she would deserves it otherwise). Feeling like you have an out, that this is a choice, will make her feel empowered.

      But honestly, you’re better off if she quits. Why? Because it’s stupid to replace so many secretaries. It’s expensive for HR to put in the time. It’s expensive for you to put in the time training a new one. If you can figure out (even estimate) how much time/money this is costing people you can get (a tiny) amount of leverage in the situation. Find out what the secretary turnover rate was before you got there. Then you can either suggest that, everyone will be much better off in the long run if you can pay the secretary more and hire someone who can handle a difficult boss OR that your boss lawyer, through absolutely no fault of his own, these darn kids today, is scaring off the secretaries and perhaps, again there’s nothing wrong with him it’s the secretaries problem but they’re all like this, he take a management refresher course. You need hard numbers and a desperate situation to push this guy (or the person who holds the purse strings) so her quitting is absolutely in your favor.

      Of course, I worked in an office with 80% turnover over three years and the b0ard wouldn’t touch the CEO, so YMMV.

    6. Do you have any input/control of the process of hiring new secretaries? If you can be upfront about the challenges of the position during the hiring process it might reduce turnover. In addition, a secretary who is able to deal with your GC might take some stress off of you.

      This strategy provided some relief in a similar situation where I worked. It’s all about managing expectations.

  23. Vent – Anyone else exhausted by the sheer time and energy it takes to be “dating”?

    I’m trying the online thing (OKC, FWIW) and there are plenty of rational, sane, non-serial killer dudes that contact me (thereby assuaging my biggest fear about online dating!) but the concept of getting home from work, having to get all dolled up and then take the T to some bar and make small talk with a virtual stranger – I’m tired just thinking about it! And it’s not like I don’t enjoy it – I do! I think I am a fun first date (never not been asked on a second, anyway) and I really enjoy meeting these guys — once I get there. They are usually interesting/funny/nice etc people, even if I don’t see much of a spark.

    I know the only real solution to this is actually just motivating myself to go, which I’m doing. But god, my bed looks so comfy after a long workday and hanging out with girlfriends drinking wine in sweats on a Tuesday is so much simpler!

      1. My advice is to make it easier on yourself. I did online dating for years (met my SO that way) and agree it’s totally exhausting if you approach it as you would a “regular” date (e.g. go home/get changed/look cute, etc.). After a bit of that, I came up with some “rules” for myself, which were: no primping ahead of time (wear something cute to work, brush hair & slick on lipstick after work – no more than I’d do to meet a friend for a drink); meet up close to my office/somewhere I want to go; max the time limit to an hour/cocktail for the first meet (unless of course, you meet someone awesome – rules can be broken :-)). This helped me get past the exhaustion of meeting people & then if I clicked/wanted a second date, I’d spend time getting ready.

    1. My advice is to make it easier on yourself. I did online dating for years (met my SO that way) and agree it’s totally exhausting if you approach it as you would a “regular” date (e.g. go home/get changed/look cute, etc.). After a bit of that, I came up with some “rules” for myself, which were: no primping ahead of time (wear something cute to work, brush hair & slick on lipstick after work – no more than I’d do to meet a friend for a drink); meet up close to my office/somewhere I want to go; max the time limit to an hour/cocktail for the first meet (unless of course, you meet someone awesome – rules can be broken :-)). This helped me get past the exhaustion of meeting people & then if I clicked/wanted a second date, I’d spend time getting ready.

    2. Can you ask to meet the guys for lunch? Or a HH right after work? Both would be shorter and wouldn’t require first going home and changing clothes.

      1. Wish I could but I work outside the city so would have to come home/park the car anyway (which would make me feel obligated to change!) and I don’t work in an area where most people could get to for a quick lunch – 20-40min, one way, depending on traffic.

        I think the other annoying thing is I live pretty far out (though still on public transit) so getting into the city takes me another 20-30min subway ride, along with my commute. Sigh.

      2. When I did Match, I met 90% of guys for a drink/appetizers at happy hour immediately following work. In terms of pre-date preparation, the most I ever did was run a brush through my hair and reapplied my lip gloss.

        I remember being slightly annoyed when trying to plan the first date with my now-boyfriend of over a year, because he works ridiculously long hours and I couldn’t get away with my usual 5:30 PM glass of wine set-up. But today I’m really glad I dragged myself out of the house to meet him at the seemingly ungodly late hour of 8 PM.

    3. The day I met my SO, I was all dressed up, lying on my bed moaning to my roommate about how I couldn’t bear to go on yet another first date with a dude from Match. I had to use all of my available willpower to make myself do it.

      When I was really burnt out, I took a break for a month or two, but I tried to get back to dating as quickly as possible. You can also make it easier on yourself by scheduling the dates at locations that are really convenient for you. It’s not always going to be fun, but it could lead to something great.

    4. I totally sympathise aside from the fact that I don’t particularly even enjoy it when I do go out with them – online dating hasn’t been my friend so far. The last thing I want to do when I get home in the evenings is to trawl through men on the internet. It’s supposed to be fun, but there are so many other things I would rather be doing (and this, ladies, explains a lot).

    5. Would it help if you didn’t get “all dolled up” and just went in your work clothes during lunch or after work?

      I met my SO (now DH) while going out with friends after work. I went straight from work, and didn’t bother with any more makeup than what I’d started the day with (undereye concealer and lipgloss.) And I ain’t no supermodel. We hit it off because we had a connection, not because I went through herculean effort to prepare myself in any way.

      1. That probably would help, actually, though my “dolling up” takes maybe 20min max. I don’t mean to say I go through a herculean effort but I do try and change into something flattering/cute and dash on some more “night time” makeup. Cutting back on that would probably help.

    6. From what I’ve read here, it sounds like most of the ladies who are doing online dating have various issues related to dating, but don’t have any trouble attracting responses from men and getting dates. I seem to be the exception to this rule (okay, a few random creeper come-ons, but no real contact from any normal guys. At all.)

      Any thoughts about what I might be doing wrong? I’ve tried EH (epic fail) and am currently on OKC.

      I will admit that for the most part I do not initiate contact with guys (I know I should, but I just get so nervous!), but I wouldn’t think that would impact whether or not I am contacted.

      1. It probably sounds like people have lots of dates, but there are two points to this:

        1. you get out what you put in – the more time you spend looking at people, nudging them (or equivalent), messaging them, reading messages and profiles, the more dates you will get. The fewer people you engage with, the fewer will be people you want to go out with. I get a lot of creepers, but I also probably discard a lot of (probably) perfectly nice guys for really random, superficial reasons (grammatical error in username, bad photo…) more often because I don’t have the time to engage with everyone.

        2. in a related vein, some people get a lot of dates because they go on dates with pretty much everyone. See point 1 above as to why this doesn’t apply to me, mostly it’s time, but again the more dates you go on the better your chances of meeting someone good.

        It’s a numbers game. A friend of mine went on 30 dates, with everyone who asked him out/he asked out and said yes, and he asked out pretty much all the girls he engaged with. Basically because you never know. Number 26 is now his wife.

        1. Grammatical errors are not a superficial reason to discard a potential match! An admitted serial killer with good grammar would have a better shot with me than a total dreamboat with poor grammar.

      2. Have you read the OkTrends blog (at work, so can’t link to it)? There are several posts on how to structure your profile to attract responses, including what type of pictures to include/not include, based on the data from OKC users.

        I know I’m not a photogenic person. I think I’m actually quite attractive, but my angular features tend not to come out well in pictures (I’ve actually been told several times that I’m a lot more attractive in person than my OKC pictures made me seem) and found when I followed the “rules” suggested (ie, flirting with the camera, slightly tilted head, etc) my messages did improve.

        I don’t typically message people because it stresses me out but I also know that I should!

        I will say this – 90%+ of the messages I get, I don’t respond to, because they are completely crap. Either they are one line/word (“hey” “what up sexy?” etc), make me uncomfortable for whatever reason (“I couldn’t help but notice your beautiful skin – I love a woman with brown skin”) or I can tell right off the bat we won’t click. I think it’s normal to get plenty of responses that are not worth your time to reply to.

      3. I tend to initiate a lot more than the guys I meet initiate. I figure it’s matter of having three strikes: I’m a lawyer, I have very short hair, and I have 2 cats.

        1. I think of what you call the “three strikes” as three ways to weed out guys who are easily intimidated, guys who are rigidly into one physical type of beauty, and guys who have allergies (or, non-allergic guys who are stupid and buy into all the stereotypes about single women with cats.) :-)

          I would think having well-cared for pets would be a sign of a responsible and caring person and a plus, but then, I’m not one of these dufus-guys who would reject on that.

          1. I agree. That’s why I refuse to list myself as a paralegal, grow out my hair, or give my cats up for adoption. But I do recognize that, like guys with facial hair, it’ll take some more effort on my side to get noticed.

            re: allergic guys. I have very little sympathy for allergic guys who refuse to consider taking allergy medications for the woman they love. I know going to the doctor is a pain in the bum but, jeesh, guys want women who are on the pill so they don’t have to use c*ndoms. How about so quid pro quo?

          2. I don’t think that’s the same at all. Allergy shots can help manage symptoms but one can still be suffering. Also, when they first meet you, they don’t know if they lov eyou yet.

    7. This. I try to do lunch or happy hour where there is no expectation of changing clothing after work.

      I usually take a break of about 2-3 weeks when I get burned out. Right now, I’m trying “monogamous dating” (i.e., only dating one guy at once). The guy I’m currently doing this is taking a week to reply to emails so I’m kind of moving on and doing more online stuff.

      I am getting pickier about the guys I do meet in person. I’ve gone from “if he has a college degree and isn’t horrible looking, I’ll meet him” to “if I want to meet him, I’ll meet him.” It means fewer dates but I’m trying to not let that bother me.

  24. Recently, I had the epiphany that I am terrible at accessorizing. In general, my style is classic and not very fussy, but lately I’ve realized that often look boring, rather than classic, because I don’t have the accessories to pull the look together. Sometimes I wear a statement necklace but I can’t wear those every day. Help me, Corporettes: what are the bare-basics accessories that work with a variety of outfits? And where would I get said accessories without spending a fortune? I’d also love to know how you approach accessory buying. Do you try to pick out something to coordinate with a specific shirt or jacket, or do you just wing it and buy what you’re drawn to?

    FYI, I am not a bracelet wearer at all because I’m driven crazy by the clackety-clack sound of them banging against the desk while I type. I’ll also confess that I’m not much of a shoe person because I have such finicky feet … but I think my boring footwear is part of what’s making my look veer into frumpy territory.

    1. This makes me so sad/disappointed. My dream job has been to be an in-house attorney and unfortunately this is now the state of the legal profession. I turned down an offer of admission to law school 3 years ago because I couldn’t trust the information the school was giving me as it sounded too good to be true in addition to the ridiculous cost of tuition. I want to try again but articles like this make me think “why bother?” Especially if I can end up in a worse off position.

      Le sigh….

    2. Yep, sounds about right, as someone who was “employed” upon graduation with a 1 month fellowship. Nine months is coming up and I expect an email any day now asking if I’m doing any volunteer work because the school has fellowship money set aside for graduates working in volunteer positions (this has been broached before).

  25. Where are in house counsel jobs posted? How do you get the contact info for corporate legal departments?

    1. My husband found his job in-house through a partner at his firm. He also looked on ACC (assoc of Corp Counsel) website and company websites. Alumni network and recruiters helped a lot too.

      1. Second the ACC website, and the companion MCCA (Minority Corporate Counsel Association) website.
        I got my in house job with a client of my firm – which was the case for nearly everyone who left the firm to go in house while I was there.

  26. Totally off topic, but I’m hoping for some advice. A client just gave me some extremely negative feedback about one of my colleagues, and I think it’s the type of thing her supervisor would want to be / should be made aware of. She has a history of performance problems, though, and so I’m conflicted; I like her and don’t want her to be fired, but the reality is that her performance isn’t improving and it affects the whole team. Do I share this feedback with her supervisor or no? And if I should, how do I do it without sounding like a tattle-tale?

    Has anyone else encountered this situation before? How did you handle it? Do you wish you’d responded differently?

    Thanks!

    1. I have never been in this exact situation, but one thought: you could present it objectively as “I thought you would need to know that Client said this to me: ____________.” You can pass on the info as being important only because it came from the client, while keeping any of your own thoughts out of it (and you can even maintain that you have no knowledge yourself on the issue). I see why you hesitate and worry about “tattling,” but as you say, this affects all of you. I’m sure her supervisor would want to know, and I suspect the client is trying to get the message to him/her in one way or another. You can just say you didn’t feel comfortable hearing a comment that negative from the client without airing it.

  27. OK ladies, I need some advice about transitioning out of my current job. I know we have discussed this before but my situation is slightly unique. I currently work for a non profit but was offered yesterday a job in the private sector (!). My future employer wants me to start on June 1, which seems like an awfully long time away. But here is the real pickle – future employer just joined the Board for the non profit I am currently employed at and mentioned to my current boss that he would be meeting with me to discuss some career opportunities (presuming he wants to preserve his relationship with my current boss, which I understand). Future boss told me this yesterday and said that my current boss was completely fine with it. If current boss didn’t already know I had one foot out of the door, I could suck it up and wait till early May to give notice. But, he knows and I feel like as soon as I receive my formal offer letter and accept new job, I should let current employer know, especially since we live in a relatively small town and I wouldn’t want him to find out from someone other than me. I am worried that these next two months will totally suck if they find out now that I am leaving and I can’t risk quitting now because I need my paycheck from current employer. I am going to ask future boss if I can push up my start date, but if anyone has any advice, I would certainly appreciate it.

    1. Will it be terribly awkward for everyone if you are still working at old job, even though everyone knows you have an offer from new job? Some people keep working for way longer than 2 weeks during their ‘notice’ period. I think you absolutely should tell current boss when you get an offer, and tell him that since your start date is so far away you would love to stay to help transition the position to a new employee, or help train said employee, or help see through your final projects, or really whatever. I wouldn’t think it’s weird at all if a colleague had a new position but still worked with me for a month or two before the position started. I would think it would be similar to someone going on maternity leave or retiring, or leaving a job for any type of reason. Everyone knows it’s coming, and you’re just helping to close out what you’re working on and getting everyone else up to speed.

      1. I am concerned about telling my current job early because I am worried that my current direct supervisor (who I don’t believe knows I am on my way out) will stick me with tons of terrible projects when he knows I am leaving. He is vindictive, mean spirited, and at times, has been hell bent on holding me back – he even tried to deny me projects that he knew would make me a more marketable employee because he was afraid I would be poached. I kid not.

    2. Since the cat is already out of the bag, I vote for complete transparency. Go to your boss and tell him what’s up. Have a plan for locating and training your replacement, i.e. April 1-15, run ads; April 15-30 screen resumes and arrange interviews, May 1-7 second interviews, new hire starts May 12 with 2-week training period.

      The general idea is that you just take for granted that it will take longer than the standard 2-week notice to replace you, and show your boss why.

  28. Is anyone else hoping for a post from so very anon about her Facebook situation (see yesterday’s post)? Hoping things worked out well!

    1. Me too! I have my fingers crossed for her and I am really hoping everything is OK!

      1. Yes, I’m hoping that the dude in question will have an honest answer that doesn’t break So Very Anon’s heart. I’d like to see more examples of the goodness of human nature. Too many examples of the opposite in the world already.

  29. For skirt suits, how do you prevent the lining of the skirt from peeking out and being visible when you sit down?

    1. Make sure the lining is short enough and moves in a similar way to the skirt. Perhaps, hem the lining if it’s sticking out. This sometimes happened with my older skirts or ones that I’ve thrifted; after frequent wearing and washing, the lining sometimes starts sticking out, for whatever reason. I often hem the lining a bit, and maybe tack it to the skirt at the seams or at any slit or vent.

  30. Rant time. I love eggplant, but I can’t cook it to save my life. I salt it, I cook it longer then I think, I even peel it, and I still can’t get that silky texture they get at restaurants.

    What oh what am I doing wroooong???

      1. I have and that’s pretty good, but its hard when I want to incorporate it into a dish! Like a stir fry or parmesan or something.

    1. Are you salting it first to drain out moisture? Many recipes I see for eggplant involve cutting it into slices, salting it,and then letting it sit for a while and drain out the excess moisture. I do this when I make eggplant parmesan.

    2. Have you ever tried making baingan bharta (sp?) out of it?

      I asked my fave Indian restaurant what they did to get that lovely smoked flavor and they said they charred the skin slightly directly on the stove’s gas burners (!!!) before they popped it into the oven, and then into the blender.

      It is one of my favorite ways of eating (and cooking) eggplant. I found a recipe that most closely approximates what the restaurant produced and it’s here:
      http://indianfood.about.com/od/vegetarianrecipes/r/bainganbharta2.htm

      1. I was just going to write this. :) Made bhangan bharta over the weekend and it’s so, so delicious. It takes a while but that’s only because you roast it in the oven forever. After that it’s a cinch to make.

    3. What kind of eggplant dish are you trying to make?

      For sliced and baked eggplant cutlets (the kind you use for eggplant parm), I can think of two problems. First would be not adding anything to it for moisture. You definitely need some olive oil (and personally I love adding lemon juice as well) to approach restaurant texture. The other problem might be cutting it too thick without letting it salt and drain for long enough. If you don’t want to spend hours letting it drain, cut the slices a bit thinner.

      Roasting eggplant is what gives it the truly soft and mushy texture. This is how spreads and soups are most often made. For roasting, leave the skins on, cut in half, and cook on high heat (most recipes call for between 450 and 500 degrees F) until you see the insides darken and it is soft when poked with a fork. Then scoop the insides out and do as you wish!

      1. The dish today that triggered the rant was an eggplant stir-fry. But your point may be good on too fronts, I was making a lunch, so I didn’t let it drain as long as I should. Plus maybe I should have cubed it smaller.

        Alas and Alack, live and learn.

  31. you can ignore my post – read again and see that you do in fact salt it. hmm. try it on the grill?

  32. Different handle for this post! I plan to buy a nice gold watch because I like to match my bag hardware, jewelry and watch (not everyone’s cup of tea, but my preference). Right now I just have a steel Tag with no bling. I’m embarassed to say I really like Michele watches. Are they tacky in an SF business casual office setting?

    Specifically, this style: http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/michele-deco-diamond-markers-watch-case/3079368?origin=related-3079368-0-0-1

    This is a summary of recent watch-related discussion:
    > Tag: young and sporty
    > Rolex: flashy, though defended by some
    > Cartier: timeless, tasteful
    > Baume & Mercier: you have no idea how much I spent on this
    > Michele: ???

    1. I think it might sort of depend on what the wrist part was made out of. But it looks pretty and maybe a little flashy, but if that works in your style, I don’t think so flashy as to be inappropriate or anything. :-)

      1. Weird! My reply got separated! Click next page to view.

  33. Ok, my own personal opinion, do not like Michele watches at all! To me, they are flashy, tacky, a tiny bit “new money” for lack of a better descriptor, and I don’t think they are worth the price because I really don’t think the brand will hold its value & be around 50 years from now the way other classic watch companies in a similar price range will. I would put it in a category of fashion watches. But in that category, I think you get more bang for your buck with, say, a Michael Kors or a Marc by Marc Jacobs watch. Since we’re being all anon, when I think of Michele watches I think of it as the fancy watch Sami from Jersey Shore would buy. Nothing wrong with that, but not for me, y’know?

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