Weekend Open Thread

Something on your mind? Chat about it here.

I haven’t worn this kind of shoe (thick sole, tall heel) in a long while, but I feel like I’m seeing more and more of them, and might give a pair a try. For what’s left of summer, I like these “light natural” wedges from Nine West — as part of Piperlime’s huge sale going on, they have them marked from $99 to $34.97.  (If you like them, do note that both 6pm.com and Endless have them in an additional six colors for $39.97-$59.99.) Nine West Bardough High Wedge Espadrilles



  1. My order of “the (New) Skirt” arrived last night! This is my first purchase, so I can’t compare to the old version, but the fit on this one worked really well for me :)

    Like previous commenters have stated, the fit is very good for a straight up and down figure. If you’re curvy, you will likely have to have this tailored. My favorite discovery was the length. I’m 5’11 and the hem hits just above my knee. Always a plus! I was uncertain about size (I’ve heard both TTS and runs big), so I ordered the same size I normally wear in JCrew bottoms and that fit well.

    My only regret is that the NAS is over and I only bought two…

    • Cornellian :

      I wish I had gotten a more interesting color, as well. The storm grey is nice, but a blue o rsomething would have been fun.

      On the length side, I’m a long-torsoed 5’4, and I would probably get the petite if I ordered again.

      • I got the gray and the bright purple, which is coincidentally the exact shade of a pair of cafe capris I got last fall (whoops). I really love the two blue versions. It’s taking a lot of willpower to resist ordering a few more.

  2. I think I had these in high school, they were Mia from Nordstrom and I wore them to the back to school dance. Judging by my secret stash of Tommy Hilfiger, I am not opposed to wearing trends again but these aren’t my favorite.

    • Rose in Bloom :

      I had a similar pair of Steve Madden shoes, also back in middle or high school. Don’t think I can’t go back again.

      • Rose in Bloom :

        *can go back again. Clearly my brain used a double negative incorrectly to show how emphatically I can’t go back.

    • Sydney Bristow :

      I LOVED a pair of Mia platforms I got from Nordstrom I got back in the day. Ah, memories.

      • I had some silver ones I wore to dances. They were ridiculously comfortable. Oh memories.

  3. Just wondering whether you guys think there’s an age to outgrow having an FWB or the like. (Please don’t turn this into a debate as to whether your religious or other beliefs are “s-x during marriage only, some of us have different beliefs and/or haven’t yet found a spouse lol)

    I’m beginning to think it will be a long time before I find a spouse (if ever) and I haven’t done the FWB thing since undergrad. Am I too old? Also, is it weird that I feel less odd about having a FWB than spending money on a um “personal toy?” (PS feel free to share your stories, if you’re so inclined) Thanks!

    • K...in transition :

      I personally think that there’s no such thing as being too old for anything… except maybe a tricycle. As long as you’re safe on every level (emotionally, physically, etc.), I say have at! As far as finding such, I can’t help ya lol

      • Obviously you have seen the 3 wheeled motorcycles. You are never to old for tricycles anymore either. :)

      • My mother bought a motor-powered tricycle after she retired, at a garage sale from a guy who was moving to Florida. I told her it was because he was too embarrassed to ride it around!

        • My great great Aunt lived in Florida and owned a non-motor-powered tricycle, which she rode around until her late 80s or early 90s. So, he would have had some company :). Apparently she frequently rode down the middle of the road – not a great plan with all of the older drivers around. My grandma said they could not get her to modify her riding habits so resigned themselves to “if that’s how she goes, at least she will have been happy.”Luckily she never had an accident.

    • Anonynony :

      I don’t think you ever really “grow out” of having a FWB relationship — actually I think they get easier, since both sides get better at setting forth guidelines about what they want in advance. But I think as you get older its also harder to find those sorts of relationships, because people settle down and you may not have the same sort of social life you had in college that proved such fertile ground for hook-ups. Unless you’re willing to go the internet route, which I never was.

      As for personal toys…get thee to amazon and buy a v*brator. If nothing else, it’s kind of fun.

    • ChocCityB&R :

      How old are you? I recently read a story about STDs being on the rise in nursing homes because of rampant “promiscuity” among residents. If they are you enough for FWB, certainly you are.

      I think the question is one of comfort level and not age. Are YOU comfortable having an FWB at your age? Whether someone else agrees with your sexual choices (so long as they are legal) are completely irrelevant. I have a feeling that you may not be comfortable with it (for whatever reason) which is why you are asking the question. If you think this is something you aren’t likely to get over, then maybe a FWB relationship isn’t for you.

      • Seattleite :

        I want to be reading this site from my nursing home bed.

        • SF Bay Associate :

          Can you imagine what computers will be like in 40-50 years when we’re in nursing homes?? It’s kinda blowing my mind just thinking about it.

          • I admit I’m imagining something like those powersleds like in Wall-E.

            Just hope I’m not an obese old lady incapable of more than just pushing a button, tho.

    • Caveat: I’ve never done the FWB thing.

      There are all these evo-psych studies that say most women can’t do the FWB thing without their hormones brainwashing them into falling for their FWBs. I find a lot of these evo-psych studies to be glorified circular reasoning, armchair social science by people who want to promote a Me Tarzan, You Jane agenda, but lack any real body of statistically sound data from evolutionary days to come to any strong conclusion that stands up to logical or scientific scrutiny.

      But there’s some truth there– it’s true that some people (men and women both) who can’t do the FWB thing without getting too attached. If you know yourself and can do this without mooning around hoping for your FWB to propose, then go for it.

      There are some potential downsides– chief of which is, you may be wasting time on an FWB that you could be spending trying to meet someone you’ll actually want a real relationship with.

      Also, if you do meet someone you think is worthwhile for a real relationship– how do you propose to handle the FWB? If you think the person you’d really like to date would judge you harshly for having an FWB, would you be willing to drop your FWB like a rock and never look back in order to pursue the prospect you really want? Again, no moralizing, no answers, just some questions for you to consider.

      • “There are some potential downsides– chief of which is, you may be wasting time on an FWB that you could be spending trying to meet someone you’ll actually want a real relationship with.”

        This, to me, is the key problem with FWB. I think they end up being a bit of a security blanket that’s “good enough” without requiring you to step out and meet people who could be potential life partners. Why not just go online dating and meet some people and have sex with them instead of a FWB?

        • Perhaps the concern there is safety?

          There’s a non-trivial chance that the person Anon meets with online and then meets for a date could be a psycho.

          If she’s having s#x with a person she’s been friends with, the “I’d like to not get strangled/stalked” thing isn’t really a problem them.

          • “then”, not “them.” I am the Queen of Typos, alas.

          • So not putting my name on this one :

            Or not be a psycho, but have an STD. Plus, first-time s-x is almost always awkward and the woman doesn’t get off. I’d rather have a regular FWB than a bunch of one-night stands.

    • Soooo anon :

      Whatever you decide about FWB, you should get yourself to the Babeland website and get over your discomfort with “personal toys.” You will not regret it. Trust.

      • Word

      • This. Your future self will thank you.

      • Anonynony :

        +1 billion. (Though amazon does also have a surprisingly broad selection and the customer reviews are helpful. I know…weird…but true!)

      • Babeland FTW.

      • So not putting my name on this one :

        Adding in my endorsement of Jimmyjane products here. I think they’re only available through the Jimmyjane website.

        • Lady Garden :

          They definitely used to sell jimmyjane at babeland. I bought one there!

          I was actually less than impressed. I prefer Fun Factory.

      • Not sure where you are, but if you’re close to the bay area, Good Vibrations is awesome. It is very woman friendly/pro s*x and they can really help you decide what you want and where to start with no embarrassment. That might be easier (once you walk in the door) than just staring at a website and not knowing what to order. But do it. You won’t regret it.

    • I always ended up dating my FWB (see the comments about the evo-psych studies above) so I don’t necessarily recommend it, but I certainly wouldn’t say you are too old. Also, my friends think I’m weird and probably judge me for it but I don’t own any personal toys and never have. Not my thing, so I completely understand being more comfortable with FWB than that. :)

    • Do it. I was always someone committed to relationships. I thought I could not date casually and certainly didn’t think FWB was for me. Then my interaction with someone I met online turned into that. I was about to move away, so I was adamant about not wanting a serious relationship. It was exactly what I needed. The experience taught me to ask for what I want. Many people — more than you think — are willing to give just that to you.

    • So not putting my name on this one :

      How do you just go out and get a FWB? Isn’t it one of those things that evolves organically after a drunken hookup or two, when you realize you don’t actually want to date?

      But anyway, no, I don’t think you’re ever too old to throw ladygarden parties with whomever you damn well please.

      • “I don’t think you’re ever too old to throw ladygarden parties with whomever you damn well please.” – THIS TO THE F-YEAH

        but, i will also chime in to echo Susan’s thoughts above. I’m doing an FWB thing rt now, but I’m a little worried that I am letting myself slide back into a pattern of ‘meh, this is easy, i’ll just go with it’ which is distracting me/taking time away/preventing me from potentially meeting someone i am really excited about…. so i’m kind of wrestling with this very thing right now, too…. sorry, i don’t have an awesomely helpful answer for you ;)

      • “But anyway, no, I don’t think you’re ever too old to throw ladygarden parties with whomever you damn well please.” #COTD

      • I approve of this use of laygarden parties. A+

        • I was telling my SO about “ladygarden parties” and he said that you need to consider “plowing the field” in place of “banging.”

    • Bookish Advice :

      I used to have a book, which I bought when I was divorced and single but gave to my stepson a couple years ago, that addressed this. The book was fabulous, but I can’t give you a link. It was written by two women, perhaps named “Mo” and “Em.” I don’t recall the title, something like “advice about sex and relationships” but more catchy.

      It had chapters about EVERYthing, and the advice would often run along the lines of “A gentlemen always endeavors to make sure that a lady enjoys herself, even — perhaps especially — on a one night stand when [inserts utterly crass verb that I cannot type here] is involved.”

      If you can find this, I would definitely read it before going out and finding a FWB.

      • Bookish Advice :

        Em & Lo (formerly of nerve.com), “Nerve’s Guide to Sex Etiquette for Ladies and Gentlemen.”

    • Honey Pillows :

      One thing to consider: being rejected by a date sucks, but you can chalk it up to incompatibility. Being rejected by a FWB after a couple of ahem -lady garden parties- put me into a panic, thinking “oh god, am I that repulsive??” No, he wasn’t starting to date someone else, just wasn’t into it anymore.

      Our friendship eventually recovered, but I’m still a little bitter about that.

      Another FWB arrangement was with an ex who wanted to get back together but settled for FWB (I know, I know, it never ends well and I brought it on myself, la dee da la dee da), and it was only after he ended our arrangement to date the woman he eventually married that I realized I had deeper feelings for him as well. And that S*CKED.

    • Anonforthis :

      I’ve done the FWB thing – I don’t think there’s a magic age at which you’re too old for these types of relationships. I think it can be good fun if you are honest with yourself about why you’re doing it and what you’re looking to get out of it. If you are using it for intimacy as an excuse to avoid meeting other people (that can be potential partners), than it’s problematic.

      During my last FWB, I was (very) actively dating (although not sleeping with any of my other suitors), so I didn’t have that same problem. Him and I had been friends for a while, and tried dating but it was a disaster. We had this intense physical chemistry though so I went for it. IMO the best FWB is someone you have that chemistry with, but for some reason, don’t want to date. I was very clear about our boundaries, but I think he started to develop feelings for me and when I met my SO, and started dating him exclusively, my former FWB went nuts, and acted in a way that both disappointed and scared me. Needless to say, him and I no longer speak, despite a long history of friendship.

      I guess my two takeaways are:
      1. Be careful about why you’re doing this. If it is just for fun and “lady garden parties”, then go for it!
      2. Be careful about your partner – don’t settle for a FWB if you want to date him instead.

      • I think its very true that you need to pick your FWB carefully. You have to be attracted to them but have no interest in dating them. It’s important to be honest with yourself about your feelings in this regard. And for them to be honest with you.

        Also, you should def buy yourself a toy. These things are not mutually exclusive!

      • Anonymous NYer :

        I imagine someone like Ryan Lochte would be the ideal FWB. Sounds pretty unintelligent/not like someone you’d really want to talk to for long, but, damn.

        • Yes, OP, you should get Ryan Lochte for your FWB.


    • If you feel comfortable with the FWB, I certainly don’t think there is anything wrong with it, nor is there some magical point at which you age out. But you have to be realistic about things. If you want something more, either from your FWB or in general, the FWB relationship may turn out to be a mess. If your FWB partner wants more, that could be a mess. (It was for me — I had no idea he wanted to be a couple, and it ruined our friendship.)

      Finally, having FWB doesn’t mean you shouldn’t get a toy — it may very well make you more attuned to what you are looking for…

    • EEk, if you don’t have a BOB (battery operated boyfriend) you need to do that NOW. And, no, you’re not too old for a FWB, but I do think that sometimes it can hinder your finding a longterm love. Unless, the FWB turns into it, which is known to happen!

  4. Lateral question. I am looking to possibly switch firms for compensation reasons. I just started working with a recruiter this week, and the first firm to invite me for an interview is one that will pay slightly higher than my current firm, but has a lower billable requirement. While this is not what I’m looking for, my recruiter suggests that it might be good to go to the interview to get interview experience. I am worried that if I go it’ll just be a waste of the firm’s time and that it is potentially risky if it gets back to anyone I know. Thoughts? I know my recruiter is only paid if I take a job, so I am not too trusting of his opinion here….

    • I generally think it’s good to go on low-pressure interviews and an initial interview is rarely a waste of anyone’s time unless you absolutely know that you would never lateral to this firm. If, after the initial interview, you realize that you would not want to work for this firm, don’t pursue it further. Also, unless there is some way for your firm to find out, I think you may be being a bit too risk averse.

    • K...in transition :

      My job hunting rule of thumb?

      If you’re desperate for a job, go on every offered interview. If you’re not and this interview is for a job you wouldn’t want if it was offered, don’t go.

      And good for you for not falling into the recruiter’s goal of switching jobs just for his benefit rather than for yours!

    • new york associate :

      My general rule: there is never a reason not to apply to a job and there is never a reason not to go on your first interview. You can reject them afterwards. Also, from watching friends go through the lateral process, you want to start interviewing now so you’re ready when the dream job comes along. Interviewing is a skill and most people are rusty at it after a few years.

    • If it’s just the one first-round meeting, I wouldn’t worry too much about wasting the interviewing firm’s time or word getting back. For the interviewing firm, it’s always useful to meet a quality candidate who can be put on file in event a better fitting role comes up. For your existing firm, it’s usually a good thing for them to know that you’re desirable in the market place. If it does come up, you can say ‘I was approached’ – which is functionally true (you were approached, by your recruiter) and allows you to side-step the worst of the negative implication that you were actively being ‘disloyal’.

  5. orchidlady :

    If you could get any three pairs of shoes/boots for fall, what would they be?

    I’ll start:

    *A perfect black sliver-wedge boot (that is ideally similar to but not the Steve Madden Intyce. I do like that boot, but I already have it in cognac and I feel like every women between 25-35 in my city has it)
    *A grey or stone-colored pointy-toed heel
    *A jewel-toned flat, maybe jade, eggplant…

    What about you?

    • Rose in Bloom :

      Jcrew and Boden have some jewel tone flats right now.

      I’d get
      * plum heels, probably almond to pointy toe.
      * green heels like yesterday’s coffee break ones, but preferably easier on my wallet.
      * fun colored flats even though I shouldn’t since I don’t wear them to work. I’m loving J Crew’s Viv Patent flats in festival blue.

    • Fleuvog Britney boots. Tried some on and swooned, then kicked myself (when they were safely back in the box) for waiting to pull the trigger on a deeply-discounted pair on Amazon that someone else swooped up. As in the store, they’re more than my car payment.

    • um… there is No. Way. i could limit myself to three…… (i might have a problem ;o)

      • Yep. I have the same high-heeled suede boots in black and tan, plus black ankle boots, black suede heels with a patent crossover, brown oxford heels, etc. etc. I don’t seen the problem.

        • ha, thx for enabling ;-) MOAR SHOOOZ!!!

          • Yeah my sister-in-law once said to me, “Oh I like these shoes, but I already have a pair of brown pumps.” I just stood there looking at her in disbelief. You’re only allowed to have one???

    • I need some basics this year, so I’m looking for:
      *High heeled knee high black boots in a classic style – no buckles or tassles or slouching or anything
      *Black flats (probably these http://www.naturalizer.ca/Shopping/ProductDetails.aspx?p=EC0105304&pg=7006273)
      *brown loafers or booties that I can wear with pants (and socks) in the winter

      Nothing exciting at all.

      • These might be kinda cool for your third one: http://www.amazon.com/Naturalizer-Womens-Ilona-Lace-Up-Shoes/dp/B0055G4AVY

      • La Canadienne makes super comfortable, unembellished boots that fit very well and don’t slouch despite being suede. Plus, they are waterproof and come with this gel insole that forms to your foot. Amazing.
        Or are you looking for more structured ones? In that case you might want to try real horseriding boots. Field boots for a more rugged look or dress boots for more classic.

    • 1. A calf-hair animal print pump. I love the Etta from J.Crew, but it’s $358. Too high, but I might bite with a 20% off coupon and my fall rewards.

      2. A sleek black leather bootie with a thicker stiletto heel ( what is the name for this? Not quite stiletto, but not a chunky heel)

      3. A metallic pump. Again, I love the Valentino in the silver color from J.Crew, but it’s pricey. Maybe with a promo or if it makes it to sale.

      • Links for those who want them:



  6. ChocCityB&R :

    I used to think this kind of shoe was easier to walk in, until I tumbled down a (small) flight of stairs while carrying a cup of coffee. The “wooden block” aspect gave me too much confidence, while the height and the fact that I was strapped in made me wobbly enough to tip over. Now I am much more careful when I wear them.

    Random friendship question: I’ve noticed that a woman with whom I share a close acquaintance has been snubbing me lately. I don’t know if she reads this site so I won’t get too detailed for fear of outing myself, but let’s just say I see her around town and she pointedly avoids eye contact and walks the other way. At first it was amusing, and now I’m starting to feel a bit hurt. I thought for a moment that maybe she didn’t see me, but it’s been too pronounced and frequent lately for me to rely on that excuse. I’m wondering if it is worth it to confront her, or if I should just let the relationship go? (What’s even more weird is that we’ve hung out recently on several occasions, so it’s not as if she just doesn’t want to see me at all).

    The reason I think I should say something (by email most likely) is I worry that I may have done something to offend her. If the issue is that she just does not like small talk or not want to engage, it strikes me as rude and I’m inclined to let the acquaintance go. (I’m an introvert and abhor small talk, but the small effort in smiling and asking someone about her day is worth it to me in order to preserve a relationship). If I’ve done something to offend her I’d like to know what it is and be given the chance to apologize. If she just doesn’t want to say hi, then I’m inclined to just end the relationship all together. What do you ladies think? Am I being too etiquette conscious for wanting to end a relationship for a perceived slight of snubbing? Should I ask her about it directly? Perhaps if I do I’ll learn she has some rare disorder that makes it impossible to recognize a person’s face and thus she is not snubbing me, she just really doesn’t see me (I know this sounds far-fetched but I think this disorder does exist).

    • ChocCityB&R :

      I forgot to add: I could also ask a mutual friend about it, but I tend to like to go directly to the source with these things so it doesn’t turn into gossip.

      • K...in transition :

        go to the source if you choose to do anything. If this person’s absence would feel like a loss, email and inquire whether you might have done something to upset her or better, email and say that you saw her recently, she seemed not to have noticed you, and you wonder if she’s ok, whether something has her distracted that you might help with. (Better than sounding accusatory!)

        If the absence isn’t a big deal in your life and is just something you’re curious about, it doesn’t seem worth the effort.

      • Seattleite :

        I’d ask, in a direct but non-confrontational way. “I have seen you several times, and you appeared to be avoiding me. Have I done anything to offend you?” It may also have nothing to do with you. She might be 1) near-sighted enough that she doesn’t recognize you, 2) having an affair, 3) on her way to or from a sensitive appointment (therapy, fertility), 4) out for some much-needed alone time and averse to impromptu company.

        FWIW, I’ve avoided acquaintances in public for reasons 1, 3, & 4. Although the victim of reason 1 did launch herself at me for hugs, which is how I know she was there.

        • Hi Seattleite, saw your earlier post, no practical advice but just wanted to say you are in the thoughts and prayers of this internet stranger.

        • I think she could be having an affair with someone close to you. What other explanation can there be?

    • Agree with Seattelite — you can address this, but be careful. I have run into friends/colleagues before when I have been too tired/anxious/whatever to deal with other people, when I have told someone else a fib as to where I am and don’t want to get caught, and when I am embarrassed about not combing my hair and don’t want to talk to people I generally enjoy in other contexts.

      It may not be you, but if you confront her, she may choose to let the acquaintance go, if the choices are admitting the other issues. Just be sure that you are okay with that, and proceed accordingly.

    • Is there really some kind of disorder where you can’t recognize faces? Because if there is, I am afflicted by it! Seriously, I truly walk around with blinders on. I have a tendency to live inside my head, always thinking about something other than my immediate surroundings and the immediate ‘now’… the next email, the next court appearance, the next cup of coffee… I’m the least ‘present’ person I know (and have recently started to work hard to correct that, reminding myself, sometimes out loud, ‘Be present!’ throughout the day).

      So, if I see someone where I’m not used to seeing them, a co-worker’s wife at the gym, for example, chances are very high I don’t recognize them, and won’t acknowledge them. Or, if I do recognize that I know them, I’m liable to take way too long to find their names and place in my life in my brain, and some kind of social gaffe is highly likely.

      This wasn’t a problem when I worked in a much bigger city and rarely bumped into people by random chance, but in the smaller community I’ve been in for the last five years its been a real issue, and I know some people probably already think I’m either a complete snob or a complete flake.

      Is it possible your friend could also be like this? I think I would approach her with, ‘Are you upset with me?’ Then take what she says at face value, and not worry about it.

      • Anonymous NYer :

        yes. usually associated with acute brain damage, but there are other forms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopagnosia

      • Merabella :

        Face blindness! I saw a thing on 60 Minutes about it. Fascinating. It really is a condition.

  7. I love these shoes and 9 West!!! YAY! The Manageing partner came with me to my first hearing on one of Jim’s cases and I won the motion! The plaineriff did NOT appear and the judge DISMISSED the Case!!!

    The judge said it was without prejuddice so he can refile FOOEY!

    But the Manageing partner will bill for both of us as wellas for lunch. I had a TURKEY salad and it was NOT turkey roll! Yay!

    I am going to meet Myrna b/c her swim was cannceled b/c of the poop in the water. FOOEY!

    • Does Myrna swim at the same pool with someone related to Ryan Lochte?

      • The issue was with the Hudson, actually–scene of Myrna’s TRY-ATHELON.


      • I learned on the Today show that Ryan Lochte likes to pee in the pool. He views this as his way of”marking” his territory; kind of like the way a dog marks his territory by pissing on trees!

        Since other swimmers take the water into their mouth to spray up like the Trevie fountain, all I can say here is a big Ptooey!

        If he is really proud of peeing in the pool, kindly remind me NOT to let him over at my house if he ever wants to take a shower. My white linen shower curtain would never be the same. Ptooey!

        • Lochte over at your house, ending up in the shower? This isn’t like you, girl. He is to young for you and probabley would NOT propose.

    • Francie Nolan :

      I heard about that on the news this morning ELLEN I am so glad that Myrna is not swimming, are you going to cheer her on?


      • They ARE swimming in the sewage today after all so they may well need to use Jill’s shower! Ewwwww! Poopie!!!!!!! Ewwwwwww!!!!

  8. SoCal Gator :

    Another plug for Nordstrom’s excellent customer service. During the NAS, I bought a cute Halogen dotted chiffon blouse but when I got home, I discovered that I had accidently purchased the XS, which was too tight under the arms. I returned it during the sale to a store where they located and ordered me the small. Alas, a few days later, I received an email notifying me that the order was cancelled as it was unavailable due to no stock. Yesterday, the salesperson who ordered it for me called to say it was now restocked and available in a small. I called and they ordered it for me on the phone and chraged me the Anniversary sale price. I am very pleased.

    • Love them. Ordered a pair of boots for my daughter but now would like to compare bigger size. Don’t want to exchange bc other size might be too big. live chat. They’re sending me the bigger size at nas price and we’ll return the one we don’t want. The best customer service ever. They seriously have all of my business.

  9. K...in transition :

    Anyone have professional shoe recommendations for someone who lives to be barefoot and, if shoes are required, throws on flip flops? Just curious as to whether something fitting that desired free feel even exists.

    • As a lover of flip flops (and currently battling swollen feet for some unknown reason) I am eying a lot of the cute Born flats online at Nordstroms and wondering if I can get the cheaper at DSW… They certainly LOOK more comfortable than most of my work heels/flats, but I have yet to pull the trigger.

      • I’m wearing a pair of Born flats right now! Love them. They’re extremely comfortable.

      • I recently bought some Born flats, but they haven’t come yet, so I can report back when they do. But cute and comfy flats are my answer to this problem. Flats that are easy to slide off so I can be barefoot under my desk.

    • I’m just like you. I suggest Puma Sneakerinas, if you can get away with it. Otherwise, I really do love my Cole Haan Air Tali wedges. They also come in a flat.

    • emcsquared :

      Dr. Scholl’s makes some comfy flats that look professional, but allow a lot of wiggle room for toes. Peep toes, especially wedges (if your office is cool with that) can also feel more liberating than traditional pumps.

      For heels, try mules – you can slip them off under your desk and be barefoot. I personally can’t walk in them, but that’s my problem!

    • LilacWine :

      Depending on how much you want to spend, if you don’t have wide feet, AGL flats from Nordstrom are pretty good. They can look very professional depending on the color, are pretty minimalist but have decent support.

    • Anonymous :

      Oh! If business casual/sportier is okay, try the Coach Dwyer flats. I now own two pairs as of 10 days ago and live in them. They feel like they are hugging my feet.

    • Old-Lady brands and health brands such as Sofft, Clarks, Born, Naturalizer, its younger brand Naya and Kork Ease make really comfortable shoes. Occasionally they have really professional looking ones, too. La Canadienne (boots) or Aquatalia are great for boots.

      • Research, Not Law :

        Trotters. Wow, are my feet happy in these. They aren’t the most attractive, but I have a pair of loafers that look like boots when peeking out from under pants.

        • +1. I feel like an old lady in them, but my Trotter loafers are so comfy I forget that I have them on.

  10. Anonymous :


    I’m feeling motivated by the Couch to 5K thread this morning, but confused by the plethora of Couch to 5K programs that come up in a google search. Are there particular apps that people like? Can you get different apps with different music selections? If it helps, I like to work out to hip hop and embarrassing pop songs that I would never cop to in real life (hellooooo Britney), and hate techno (sorry!).


    • Rose in Bloom :

      I replied in the morning thread that I downloaded C25K podcasts from runningintoshape dot com. Its not an app, but you listen to the mp3s (one for each week of training) and the woman who made them tells you when to run/walk. Her podcasts have great pop music, which I love because it makes me enjoy the run/walk. They are located under the 5k training downloads tab. Hope this is what you are looking for!

      • anonymouse :

        This is really great. I have been wanting to do the Couch to 5K and actually tried it a while back using my watch to time myself… bad/frustrating idea. This is perfect.

    • On the iPhone/iPod Touch, there are some (paid) apps that allow you to play your own music in the background. The one I used is called Run 5K, I believe.

      • I have Run 5K also, and like that I can play my own music and it just says “RUN NOW!” and “WALK NOW!” over whatever of my own music I choose to play.

        Now actually managing to USE it is a different story…

    • TurtleWexler :

      A couple of us mentioned Get Running — one of the things I really like about it is that it runs in the background so you make your own playlist in iTunes and listen to both the music and running instructions simultaneously. You can use all the features you normally would (shuffle, skip, etc). I like this much better than apps with built-in music.

      • Jenna Rink :

        I’m on week three using Get Running. I really like it for all the same reasons as you do. I also like that you can adjust whether it gives you lots of periodic encouragement or just gives you the run and walk cues. Totally worth the minimal cost.

    • The Run Training app is free and has Couch to 5K. It also has a similar 10K program.

      • I use Ease to 5K. Love it, it has a nice lady who tells me when to run, walk, cool down. there is gps tracking, I can set it just to run a specific distance and it will tell me how much further I have. it maps my runs, gives me times, and has a great little charting feature so I can track speed, distance, weight, etc. Also, can use your own music.

    • I have a somewhat complicated system now that I think about it — I used 5K runner (now 10K runner), which gives you audio cues, but you can play your own music from itunes. When I’m running outside I also track my run with Strava so I know how far/fast I went. So, I guess I actually use three different programs (trainer, music, tracker) for my runs!

      I will say that C25K training programs are not all exactly the same, so you might want to check that first before you buy — I have a strong preference for interval training rather than just gradually running longer distances, so I like 5K/10K runner because it has more intervals than some of the others.

    • Unemployed :

      I like kiss my black a$$ dot com’s Couch-to-5k podcasts. Plenty of hip-hop and Britney so you’ll probably like it too

    • health care anon :

      How timely! My husband and I just finished a race and obstacle course over the weekend, and I realized that cycling 16+ miles does not translate into running. Boo. I recommend Runner’s World Smart Coach app and the book “run like a mother” (don’t have author right now). I love to bike, and am training for several century rides, but running, I just can’t get into. I hear Run! Zombies! Is another good app.

  11. I tried these on at the Nine West store. Wasn’t impressed.

    For anyone who was waiting for an update, the new boss gave a nice 10 point speech this morning (from notes on his phone) and nobody really saw what was on the powerpoint because it was running at the front of the room and he was walking around to different places. What was on the Powerpoint was definitely not the 101 ideas. But even funner was the fact that our new provost came to speak this morning and he has met new boss once and referenced the 101 ideas more than once in a chuckling, teasing sort of way. The meeting went pretty well overall and the 101 ideas didn’t really even come into play. But I overheard him asking one of my colleagues about getting things printed and how long it takes. So I don’t think that’s the end! Like the zombie that won’t die.

    Okay, off to set up for the wedding shower! Sorry I missed most of this morning’s thread. Looked like some heavy stuff going on but the usual fabulous concern and support.

    • I’ve taken to calling certain cases around here zombiecases because they have a strange ability to come back, over and over.

      Glad the morning meeting went well!

    • I feel like the 101 ideas is a running joke. I bet your boss really did intend to have 101 ideas, but when he realized everyone thought it was a bad idea, he took it in stride and is now joking about it. If so, that also means he’s a really awesome boss who can find humor in being wrong.

      • No, I think he’s actually going to do it. I even got the sense that he plans to present some form of it at the provost’s retreat. Unfortunately, the joking was from *his* boss. He’s a great guy and can laugh at himself but about this thing, it’s like he can’t be swayed, no matter how many people tell him it’s a bad idea. I do think he has changed the focus somewhat so it won’t freak everyone out.

    • Oh No, No Printing Of The Zombie Booklet, NNnooooooooooooooo!!!! ;o)

  12. K...in transition :

    Semi-Silly Friday Question: Do you think you are a representation of your astrological sign? How so?

    I’m a Pisces (ides of march!) and am totally Piscean; I adore the water, am super emotionally driven, and gravitate toward ocean-like colors. I’m also convinced that, of the 2 fish, one of mine is Type A and the other is a Hippie, leaving me with wanting to be in charge while barefoot and wearing tie-dye and giving me a permanent internal conflict hehe

    YOUR TURN! :)

    • I’m Pisces too and you sound very much like me…

    • Fun idea! I’ll play.

      I’m an Aquarius and have never thought the stereotypical description of the Aquarius personality (eccentric, lives on the edge) particularly suited me. So I never really bought into astrology, though people who know more about it than I do say I seem more like a water sign personality, or maybe a Virgo.

      That said, I recently flipped through a book while I was waiting for someone that described the different signs in relationships, and the Aquarius description fit me perfectly… so maybe there is something to it after all! ;)

    • Western Zodiac of Chinese Zodiac? :-)

      • “or”

        Really, Leos can type!

      • K...in transition :

        in Chinese zodiac, I’m a pig… water element, helpful by nature, can get walked on by those who don’t appreciate her desire to love, may be interpreted as lazy because she can revel all day in great s*x or a good nap, choose to spend time with an exclusive few and ignore the rest of the populace, always see the positive in others.

        Hmmm… I think my closest friends would say that pretty well describes me haha

        • I’m all about fire (w.r.t Chinese zodiac). I guess that’s supposed to make me an Angelina Jolie-like assassin type.

          I missed the part where they say the alternate side is being a couch-jockey bookworm who likes ruffly dresses and cookies from Trader Joe’s.

    • I am definitely the perfectionist, not good with emotions but still loyal to a fault Virgo.

      • Also a Virgo. Definitely a perfectionist and love details. I’m also the random source of advice for friends and coworkers, on everything from love to cooking. I’m more of an introvert than I’d like to be, but I suppose I also am more reflective/perceptive as a result.

      • Hey Virgos: I’m not a perfectionist, not detail oriented, and don’t think of myself as particularly loyal…but I am introverted, good with words and language, good memory, and pretty reflective. So kind of?

      • Hello, Virgos. Also a perfectionist (wish I could get minimize that trait), not good with other people’s emotions, loyal, try to be detail oriented but usually fail (see comment re: perfectionists), huge introvert, quite modest, meticulous (my house is basically in perfect order all the time or I go insane), and very critical.

      • Ruthy Sue :

        I fit the Virgo profile pretty well. Perfectionist and detail oriented, introverted, loyal, not good with emotions, but good memory and good with words. And like KC also the source of random advice (just gave a friend my review of sleeping pads for her camping trip). I definitely enjoy the advice part.

      • My bday is during the Virgo-Leo transition time, so I could be either one depending on the horoscope. I think I have characteristics of both. I’m domestically-oriented, loyal, and have some perfectionist tendencies like a Virgo. But I like to be in charge and am pretty outgoing and confident, like a leo. Also less perfectionist than most Virgos, I think. So I’m about 80% virgo and 20% leo, which according to my birthday, is about right.

        Semi-related question: my husband, mom, sister, and many of my best friends (past and present) are all virgos. Do you think there is a tendency for certain types to click? It’s to the point where I can spot a virgo before they even tell me their birthday, and I’m not big believer in astrology generally, so I’m always looking for a confirmation bias but it has been too many times for me to think it’s coincidental.

        • I’m also on the Virgo/Leo cusp, and like you have characteristics from both (and about the same characteristics!).

          I do think there’s something to the same type of person being drawn to each other. My husband and I are both Virgos, for instance.

        • Ooh, another Virgo here. Worrywart, perfectionist, super critical but not judgmental ….loyal, etc.

    • Francie Nolan :

      Yes I am a Taurus through and through – practical, reliable, patient, affectionate, ambitious, and determined but also I can be very lazy, jealous, inflexible ( a biggie for me) and stubborn.

      • I’m Taurus, too — and I’m most of these too. Not that patient any longer . . . .

        And another set of characteristics I’ve heard that is associated with Taurus I fit, too — liking things that appeal to the five senses: e.g., good smells, good food, tactile things like cozy throws and bed linens and just the general nesting thing around my apartment.

    • I do think that it’s pretty silly stuff, but I particularly love and identify with mine, which I think are facinating.

      I’m right on the Capricorn/Aquarius cusp, and the 2 couldn’t be more different, yet, I tend to think that I embody both sides. Capricorns are very conservative, risk adverse, money and sucess-focused, very type-A, while Aquariuses are laid back hippy eccentrics. Odd mix, but me.

    • According to the all-knowing Wikipedia, a Scorpio is: People born with the water of Scorpio are very determined, reserved, loyal, and secretive. They are firm and somewhat proud, and capable of unmistakable traits of characte; they may be either very much liked or very much disliked. Their somewhat suspicious nature causes them to be distrustful, but among all their seemingly evil traits of character, they have that grit and backbone that enables them to make higher attainments than those born in the other signs. For the “Wisdom of the Serpent” lies concealed in this sign, and they become so discreet, wise and prudent as to display extraordinary genius. It has been said “the greater the animal the greater the man,” and it may be that in the animal passions there lie the germs of the spiritual force, which, when sent upwards, may achieve great and mighty things.

      Honestly, other than being loyal and fairly determined, none of this sounds much like me at all. I’m not secretive, not particularly suspicious, and while I’m fairly well-liked, its far from universal. :-P Oh well.

      • I am such a Scorpio, even (especially?) the negative parts (though I don’t like to admit it).

        But I am also definitely a Tiger. They say that Tigers are very compatible with Horses. Well, one day I sat down and figured it out, and it turns out that every single male who has ever played a significant role in my life, except one, was/is a Horse. How weird is that?

        I don’t want to believe in this stuff, but sometimes it is weirdly accurate.

    • Leo Strength Keywords:
      – Confident – Yup
      – Ambitious – Check
      – Generous – Hope so!
      – Loyal – To a fault, sometimes
      – Encouraging – Yes

      Leo Weakness Keywords:
      – Pretentious – I hope not
      – Domineering – Occasionally…
      – Melodramatic – ::blush:: Sometimes…
      – Stubborn – :sigh: Yes.
      – Vain – In high school, very much so. Not as much anymore, but I do love to get compliments…

      Guess the shoe fits…

      • Divaliscious11 :

        HM – I wouldn’t worry about the weakness words – they are the flip of the strength and one generally leans one way or the other…. oh dear, was that pretentious, or just confident????

        ps – happy birthday!

    • Yes! I’m a libra. I’m compassionate and a good listener, and people come to me for advice/resolution of their problems. As a negative, I also like being the center of attention, but in a subtle way ( :) ), which is apparently also a libran thing. I just read a thing that said librans are supposed to be outgoing and extroverted, which I am definitely not. My sister is a Leo, and she’s a bright, shiny, sparkly, gem of a leo.

      • Hmmm…. I just looked at a bunch of Libra websites and I don’t think I fit. I am fairly outgoing and extroverted. I just don’t think I fit, for whatever reason.

      • AnonInfinity :

        I’m also a Libra. I’m not an extrovert (though I am out going). Also not romantic AT ALL. But I do love being the center of attention and fit pretty much all the other characteristics.

      • Blonde Lawyer :

        Libra too and yes it fits.

      • Outgoing Libra here… I wear a bracelet with the zodiac sign of the scales… which also fits b/c I’m a JD to be :)

    • RussiaRepeat :

      I’m a Cancer and, while I’ve become more of a homebody since moving in with my now-husband, I’ve never felt it fit me well. I am a softie and a bit moody, but work-me can be pretty tough with opposing counsel and ready to fight, and I can be pretty extroverted. Wikipedia says I should be sensitive and intuitive, but I’m more a reseach and logic type, not just at work, but in loving history versus romances, sports versus music, etc. I am also not dying to have kids, though I dote on my cats.

      My husband is on the Aries/Pisces cusp and somewhat self-associates with Aries–he’s definitely a creative, risk-taking person, though I wouldn’t say high strung or “up in the clouds” like Wiki suggests.

      • Same for me! I’m terrible at baking, have no plans to have kids, and am a super logical research-oriented type A. So much for my sign. The only part of the cancer description that I ever thought fit me was that cancers are supposedly ruled by the stomach, and when I get stressed out my stomach is the first thing to go off.

      • Every cancer I know lies about it. Who wants to be seen as a domestic drudge? Generally, we say we’re scorpios. There’s always time to confess after they’ve already succumbed to your charms.

    • No friggin’ clue.

      My Chinese horoscope is always dead-on, though.

    • Divaliscious11 :

      Alas, yes. Leo in both Moon and Sun sign….

    • I’m a total perfectionist Virgo. I also believe in birth order and I’m the oldest of 4 kids. I’m destined to be bossy and picky. ;(

    • Yo where my Geminis at? I can’t be the only one.

      I’m a pretty decent Gemini–definitely adaptable, definitely handle change well, independent as crap, very creative, and outgoing, and pretty good at expressing myself through whatever medium. But at the same time, I’m a lot more doggedly loyal, determined, and nose-to-the-grindstone than my flighty air sign would suggest.

    • Gosh that sounds just like me!

      I totally relate to your internal conflict comment. Never thought of it quite that way.

  13. SoCalAtty :

    Yay weekend open thread! I need the hive’s support. I know many of us have vented about ungrateful siblings in the past, but I’m at my wit’s end. My brother just turned 20, and I am 11 years older. He lived with my alcoholic mom his whole life, but my grandparents took me when I was little so we never lived together (took me before he was born and couldn’t take another at 70 years old). So. Bascially since I was 16, I picked up making sure my brother was taken care of (food, clothes, rides, etc.). Of course my grandparents helped and made it possible to do that, but I did most of it. Despite our efforts, he had to put up with much, much more than any normal kid should have had to. I totally get that. But he did always have food, clothes, “stuff” (games, trumpet to play in band, etc), a bedroom, and rides. 2 years ago, our mom died from her alcoholism, and my brother was 2 weeks from turning 18. Me living in a tiny 700 square foot house in an area with horrible schools, I arranged for him to stay in my mother in law’s guest house, walking distance from great schools (both a junior college and adult school so he could finish the dipolma), in exchange for him helping her out around the house (big property, and it’s just her and she is in her 60s). I gave him my old car (which functions perfectly and has a/c), pay for the insurance, cell phone, and give him gas/food money. Not much, maybe $20-40/week depending on what is going on because my MIL’s house is stocked with food and he is welcome to it.

    He has never been very reliable or responsible, but now he just refuses to do anything that “doesn’t make him happy.” Whenever my MIL or our 85 year old grandfather that can’t drive anymore but lives 1 mile from him asks for a ride to the doctor, or anything else, he is either way late or a no-show, or cancels at the last second. My grandpa stopped calling my brother. He has also disappeared for the entire summer “camping.” I’m going to be up there (he is about 5 hours from me) this weekend, and I said “ok, we need to get a list of specific things you are supposed to do around the house, and you need to do them, or I’m not going to continue funding your social life.” The deal I’m offering is he does 25 hours per month of work for my MIL, and for every hour over that I’ll pay him $8/hour (he says he wants a job, but “can’t find one”). He also has to finish his GED (just a test, I paid for books course and test) by 2013 and go to the junior college clases he signed up for (10 units). For that, I continue to pay car, food, insurance and phone.

    He basically lost his marbles, said I am a horrible, controlling person with unreasonable expectations, that he should be able to do whatever he wants because he has had a hard life, and that he’s not going to show up this weekend (he’s known I was coming for 4 weeks) because he is too busy “camping.” He says I “gave” him the car, that I have no right to try and track him down or have any say in what he does, and that this is all just so unfair. Phone, car, insurance are all in my name, on my accounts.

    Some great quotes have been “I’ve always known your help came with a price” and “I can’t believe you’re going to take my only resources I have away from me to do school and have a job [he doesn’t have a job] because I won’t do what you want.” “I’ll clean out the car if you really want me to have nothing.” And my personal favorite: “I don’t understand what happened to you, you base all decisions based on numbers now, and that’s not how the world works.” Ok one more – “it kills me that my only family judges me based on my achivements and what work I do.”

    I know I’m right. My offer of “you get X in exhange for Y” is, I think, totally reasonable. There’s going to be a showdown – well, not a showdown, because I’m showing up with a printed list of his responsibilities and what he gets in exchange, and I intend to be totally cool and calm. Not to say I won’t be in hysterics after while I’m by myself, but we all know how that goes.

    I didn’t even post that as anonymous because I’m sure you smarties could have figured that out. I would love to hear your thoughts on the whole thing.

    • You're right :

      I have a friend who basically forced his (professionally educated but unemployed) fiance to take a service industry job during the depths of the recession. Honestly, he was kinder to her than anyone else. We were enabling her; he helped her move on (but took a lot of crap for it).

    • Hugs – you’ve been stuck being mom and sister, and that’s not fun.

      I think you are being completely reasonable. He’s technically an adult, and you’re doing what a parent would do for a college-aged kid. And he acting like most teenagers too – the phase where their parents are horrible people for making them face adult responsibilities. If he thinks your deal is so completely unfair, would you feel comfortable suggesting that he work up his own proposal? Not that his proposal wins, but at least it makes him feel like he’s part of the process instead of being treated like a child (from his point of view).

      • SoCalAtty :

        anon – absolutely! At least 5 of my text messages yesterday said “if you at all think these responsibilities are unreasonable or unfair, please let me know what you think is fair and you can handle and we’ll talk.” He completely ignored me and blew past that idea right to “this is SO unfair!” I kept saying “WHAT is unfair?” and I never got an answer. These suggestions have all been helpful. Saturday at 9am is the meeting time that I’ve set out. I don’t know what I’ll do if he doesn’t show up.

        • Well, bummer. Definitely sounds like a teenager that needs to be dumped from the nest. Which is not a fun process on either side.

          I’ll echo the advice below about making sure you tell him that you love him and always will. You love him enough that if he decides he does want the value of your help and connections, you’ll be happy to work with him to find someplace to live and work on getting his GED. Your love comes free, but support does not. If he decides he wants to live without your support, he is welcome to give that a try. The real world expects able-body people to do for themselves. The fortunate ones have someone in a position to give them a hand up.

        • He’s not going to show up. And when he doesn’t, I suggest you do absolutely nothing, as in don’t call him or text him, and don’t pay his bills again.

    • ChocCityB&R :

      I am NOT AT ALL qualified to answer your question, because I have THE SAME ISSUES with siblings (sorry for Ellen caps). However, I want to say that you are not crazy, what you are asking of him is totally reasonable, and if you stick to your guns you will teach him a valuable lesson about life.

      On the other hand, I’d be careful to make sure he knows that you love and support him, you are his family no matter what, and that even if you cut him off, he will always be your brother and you will always be there for him, no hard feelings (of course that last part is a lie, but we can pretend as the older responsible ones). Because he’s had such a hard life, and doesn’t seem to have anyone else, I think it’s important that he knows you love him without judgment, and you’ll be there when he comes back for help (so long as he is willing to give a little in return).

      • I second this. I have not been in your situation, but I am a sister with younger brothers, I have a parent with some substance abuse issues, and I remember feeling very lost and lonely at many points in my teens and early 20s. I think it’s so, so important that he knows that you love him without judgment. You would think that he would, since your actions say that, but sometimes people need to hear it.

        And I hope YOU know that you’re a good sister and you’re doing everything you can for him.

    • K...in transition :

      You’re probably not going to want to hear this, but people can only be helped if they want to accept and reach out for the help. I totally get where he’s coming from and he might have even told himself for years that, once his mom and her drama was gone, he would make his life all about him, which means it’ll take time for him to understand that healthy people depend on him too.

      However you can’t continue to enable this behavior or he’ll never grow. What’s that mean? Give him a timeline. By x date, you must be doing ____ or you will stop receiving play money from me. By y date, you must be doing ____ or your phone will be turned off. And by all means, if you can’t trust him to be responsible with the car, repossess it before he damages it or mows down a bus of kids under your name and insurance.

      This might mean you don’t hear from him for a while, he might feel abandoned by you, but he’s either going to grow up and start to support himself and realize you were providing tough love or he’ll continue down this path but not be able to drag you and others down with him. Either way, you are and have been a great sister.

      I hope this helps :)

      • I think this is a good idea, and now having heard that he’s not mature enough to actually get anything out of therapy, I’d stop paying for any therapy until he asks for it AND comes up with a good reason why he thinks it’ll be different from the previous times.

        You’ve done all you can at this point, and it may be time to back away a bit and give him space to try and fail and pick himself up. As others have said, let him know (even if he can’t hear it right now) that you love him, and that you’ll always love him, but that you’re going to give him a chance to try out his view of reality against the world.

        I admit that the “hard life” story doesn’t cut it, ultimately. You know, people who’ve been given fewer mental and physical gifts, who’ve been in worse family situations in horrible countries, have accomplished more than him. So, if he wants all that freedom, he’s entitled to it, so long as he also accepts the responsibility. I think it’s right to cut off all this stuff (car, phone, insurance, etc.) or else he’s kidding himself that he’s actually taking any real responsibility.

      • I think K is right on the money.

        As I was reading your post, OP, I just kept thinking “she needs to just stop.” I think K has a great way to go about it, you have to realize he’s an adult, and he may have to fall a couple times before he figures out that he’s got to pick himself back up. Right now he feels entitled to help because of your mother’s issues, and frankly I bet he’s REALLY resentful that you got to grow up in grandma’s house while he was stuck with the alcoholic mother. I mean, he’s got to think, what makes YOU so special? I am sure he feels like you owe him for having to deal with mom while you got to be nice and cozy with the grandparents.
        I don’t think that means you should now have to compensate for that, you were a child too and the failure is that of your mother, not you. But you’re the only one left, so he blames you. He probably also blames you for ‘leaving him there’ once you turned 18. It may not be fair, but I would be shocked if he didn’t feel that way.
        He’s going to have to work through that resentment himself.

      • K’s plan sounds very good to me. Basically, you’re going to have to cut him loose. Doing it kindly, with clear steps laid out ahead like this, is the best solution, as opposed to just dumping him outright. He still has the option to think better of it and reform, if he wishes.

        But don’t hold your breath. In my own experience, younger siblings who’re taken care of fully grow to expect it. They see no contradiction between being supported in style (and in idleness) and resenting you for being more in control. Doing more for your brother won’t get you any sort of appreciation, just more resentment and demands for more. It’ll be painful to make the transition out your older sister role, but it’ll also be better for you in the long run.

        Meanwhile, you should probably make plans to hire a reliable person to take care of the elder part of the family. They shouldn’t suffer any longer from baby brother’s flakiness.

    • Wow. I can’t relate, but definitely think you’re right. I think the key will be follow through. Certain things will be relatively “easy” to monitor – like whether he got his GED. But how are you going to keep track of whether he helps your MIL for 25 hours a month? Have her report back to you? And I think you should consider starting to wean him off your money, regardless of whether he complies with the deal. He’s reaching adulthood (I usually take the stance that you’re not an adult until you’re 22 – right about the time when you graduate from college. Or maybe this is just the point where I considered myself an adult!), and he needs to learn to take care of himself. That includes paying for his cell phone bill if he wants to talk to his friends.

      Good luck! I’m sure this will be really hard, but you’re doing the right thing.

    • Agree with everything that has been said above, but wanted to add that I might make weekly therapy sessions part of the “I’ll pay” deal. I’m sure he has some issues stemming from growing up with an alcoholic mother, with a sister who “got out”, and then lost his mother at 18. I know it’s probably hard since you dealt with a lot of the same crap, but he sounds like he could really benefit from it.

      • SoCalAtty :

        I mentioned this down below, but I wanted to add – I paid for him to see a therapist for about 6 months on an every other week basis. He basically just lied to the therapist, told him “everything is fine,” and then stopped showing up and I was paying cancellation fees. I tell him about every other month that I will pay for therapy if he will just show up, but he won’t do it. I agree he would benefit…but I can’t chain him to the therapist couch, unfortunately.

        • Whoops, sorry, I missed that. If he’s not going then you’re right to forget about it. But that’s definitely something else to factor into the “If you’re not willing to help yourself, then there’s not much I can do, and I’m going to have to stop enabling you” speech.

    • I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I don’t have any relevant experience, but it seems like you’re doing everything right. If your mom wasn’t capable of imposing rules and running a structured family life (my understanding is that alcoholic parents are rarely capable of this) then this is a whole new world for your brother and it’s going to seem very alien (and difficult and unfair) for awhile. It sounds like he’s extremely lucky to have you for a sister.

    • He sounds like a typical, ungrateful teenager. I would start taking away some of your financial support, one thing at a time. Hopefully he’ll “get it,” turn himself around, and maybe you can reinstate your assistance.

      But many, many teenagers are just as ungrateful. I have heard quotes like this time and time again. It doesn’t sound like he’s reached a level of maturity to be responsible and understand “how the world works.”

      Tough love may be the best way to teach him. I would just try to be as supportive verbally as you can, and maybe keep your door open to him for dinner a couple times a week if he’s struggling. But I’d start having him figure out how to pay some of his own bills. He is old enough.

    • Oh my…does sound like a stressful situation. But I think you are being reasonable. If you want him to be a respectful person, he’s going to have to get past the “hard life” excuse. I say if he doesn’t stick to your rules, but him off. Don’t give again until he has actually proven he will do the items on the list.

    • Ugh, I’m sorry.

      A very small part of me understands where *thinks* he is coming from. He feels like he had a hard life and is entitled to having his life “his way.” And to some extent, that is true. If you behave like an adult you get to do those things – both the benefits and consequences. I also think there is something about that age where most people have a bit of a dramatic freak out (I know I did) and are resistant to actually growing up.

      I am a fan of tough love, because if you don’t nip this in the bud you will spend the rest of your life dealing with excuse after excuse about how the world is out to get him. One of my family members is like this – he has a had a sh*tty bit of luck, but he also put himself there.

      I’d start with I love you and will always love you and want what is best for you. Right now you all are differing over the what is best – try and get him to explain what he thinks is best. If you can agree to some stuff, meet in the middle. If you can’t, then guess what – life comes with conditions. He can choose to accept them or can live *his* life by his own accord. This helps if everyone is on the same page (MIL and Grandpa) and all helpful enabling is cut off. When he wants to accept help again, he can come back and accept the same consistent conditions. Finally, maybe consult a therapist to figure out how you can deal with this in a way that it isn’t quite so soul-crushing for you and is productive.

      Good luck! Go brush your pony – it will make you feel so much better.

      • SoCalAtty :

        L – I tell you what, a good cry in the pony’s stall is just about the best therapy ever. But yes, I’m in therapy as well for almost no other reason that “how the heck do I deal with all these demanding ungrateful relatives” and fallout from all that stuff from when I was a kid. Soul crushing is just about the right word for it, though. Grandpa and MIL are 100% on board – in fact, when I called upset about it last night, Grandpa said if he doesn’t show up with the car Saturday morning, report it stolen! He’s not going to get any enabling there. Grandpa is really overprotective of me from what I went through as a kid, so I’m keeping them separated because there is no guarantee that 85 year old ex-marine won’t deck him one! I’m kidding, but only partially. Better not to chance it. But I won’t report the car stolen, and I explained to Grandpa that doing that isn’t like what it was 30 years ago. If he gets picked up it = big far reaching consequences.

        I can’t tell you all how much I appreciate the support. This is a pretty rare community, with other hard workers and high achievers and a lot of you have come from, or are even in right now, tough situations. It is so nice to be able to post in a place where the community is full of the “responsible” family members that are like me! You guys are great.

        • Lord, I love your Grandpa. I may need to borrow him to shape a few folks on my end up. The hardest part is always the anticipation. You know it’s not going to go well and there will be fall out, but it will resolve itself in some way shape or form. While it will suck in the short term, it will help in the long term. Maybe for the best or maybe not, but you won’t be stuck spinning your wheels. Good luck with everything and remember to breathe!!

    • Chiming in to support your decision to stop enabling him. My brother and I also had a challenging childhood (though not compared to yours), and my brother had continued to use that as an excuse. Our mother continues to enable him. Since has graduated high school, he still lives at home, hasn’t achieved even an AA degree, and occasionally holds down a service industry job. He plays videogames for hours. His car and insurance and cell phone are paid for by our mother, and he doesn’t pay any living expenses. He is now 30. With our mother continuing to support him, he is not forced to change. My sympathies in dealing with this really difficult situation. Stay strong and know that it’s truly for his own good.

      • *since he has graduated.

        Also, I wonder if your brother is depressed? Depression runs in my family, and it may in yours. Basic tasks can seem completely overwhelming when you’re depressed. Thank goodness for medication.

        • SoCalAtty :

          regular – he probably is. Short of tying him up and dragging him to therapy…but I’ll keep offering to pay for it. I wish he would go. I think the problem the last time was that the therapist was making him look at things about himself he didn’t want to see/hear – like he is being ungrateful and needs to help out – so he quit. That’s just my theory though.

    • Honestly, he sounds like a normal 20 year old guy who has had a rough life and an unstable family structure. I have a close relative who was raised mostly by my parents who is exactly the same way. He’s only going to get his sh-t together if and when he decides he wants to get it together for himself. He’s not going to do it for you, or in response to anything you do. If I were in your shoes, I would give him a lump sum of money that you can afford (enough for a month or two of expenses, ideally), and tell him he’s always welcome to visit or call but this is the last money he’s ever going to get from you.

      Creating this semi-employer/employee relationship with him is a recipe for disaster. You need to stop giving him money and stop being involved or trying to control the details of his life. As long as you bankroll him, he’s never going to take control of his own life and take responsibility for himself. He’ll probably be really mad at you for a year or so, and then he’ll either get his act together and be part of your life again, or he won’t get his act together and it will be very difficult for you to watch him flounder. But it’s really the only way to break his cycle of irresponsibility and dependence.

      I do think your brother would benefit from counseling, speaking as the product of a very similar family situation. If he agrees to go regularly, I do think it would be okay for you to pay for it. I can tell you that my little brother is benefiting enormously from therapy right now.

      • Stepmom re: driving and ACT preparing :


        You say that everything is in your name. When he doesn’t show up Saturday, start contacting the companies and turning off all the accounts. I personally would also send him an email listing all the accounts you have turned off and telling him that on Monday at 9 am (or whenever you decide) you will report the car stolen. That gives him time to return it to avoid the law enforcement consequences.

        Finally, who will tell him that he can no longer live in MIL’s guest house? He needs to be told that as of X date he will no longer be living there, the locks will be changed and he can collect his things from Y place.

        We have been 3+ years of doing all this in bits and drabs with my 21 year old stepson (in part because we are attempting to coordinate with his mother who also has mental health issues of her own), and I think it would have been much more effective *for him* if we had done it fast and all at once and early on, like ripping off a band aid. Instead, he is three years older and still pulling the same stunts.

        He will say he hates you. Let him. You will feel guilty and wonder if you are doing the right thing. You are. And let everyone else remind you that you are doing the right thing.

        • e_pontellier :

          “He will say he hates you. Let him. You will feel guilty and wonder if you are doing the right thing. You are. And let everyone else remind you that you are doing the right thing.”

          This. And even if he stops speaking to you for a while (months, years), when he grows up, he will realize how helpful you were, and that without ripping off the band-aid he never would have grown up. You’re totally doing the right thing — but I would agree with the advice _not_ to create an employer/employee relationship because that will (can) create resentment. Good luck.

    • Anon for this :

      I’m really glad everyone’s supporting the tough love tack, and I agree wholeheartedly.

      My boyfriend’s little brother sounds exactly like your little brother -except a little worse. He failed out of community college (over the course of 5 years), moved in with my boyfriend, and refused to get a job for six months. He refused to do small chores around the house, like even washing his own dishes, brought his friends over late at night, and disappeared with my boyfriend’s car a few times after having crashed his last two cars. Boyfriend and family refused to cut him off, saying, “If we don’t give him money, he’ll either turn homeless, move in with a girl, or go back to dealing.”

      I refrained from expressing my opinion: “So let him.” After my boyfriend locked up the car keys, cancelled the cable subscription, and stocked the pantry only with food that required cooking, the kid got hungry and bored, and got a job waiting tables. After another four months of that, he took a look at his life and realized he didn’t want to turn into the tired, defeated managers at his restaurant, and he joined the Navy.

    • You and I must share a brother, in which case we should probably coordinate shifts of babysitting.

      You’re enabling him, which I know you know because I know I’m enabling my brother. It’s so hard to stop and my sympathies go out to you. I sure hope you can cut him off — it’ll give me hope that some day I can too.

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      I really don’t have advice but I think you have to trust your gut and know you are doing the right thing. You are doing it for him and in the long run that will help him more even if it hurts you and him in the process.

      I think you gave me excellent advice Monday when I wrote in about my altercation w/ my alcoholic cousin at my grandmother’s 100th bday party. You should go back and read your advice to me and then follow it :) What would you tell another poster?

      That said, my brother is 22 and pretty selfish too so some of this might be typical teenager stuff. On the bright side, you live in California so if he winds up homeless he won’t freeze to death. He seems to love camping, right?

    • Anonymous :

      I can relate to your frustration, since I also have a brother who behaves similarly. To make it more absurd, we can’t even complain about our upbringing at all. I also support the tough love approach from all the other commenters, but see the situation slightly differently.

      I would do no differently in your situation, (<- wanted to emphasize this bit)

      but being the provider is the easier of the two roles, believe it or not. You're building resentment and controlling him by making his decisions for him, probably because you also have a fear of seeing him fail. I think all of us, myself included, have a type-a tendency to want and be able to efficiently to tie up all loose ends in a difficult situation for what's ultimately our own peace of mind. Even if the result is beneficial for the group, that is still actually controlling outcomes that affect other people.

      So just like everyone said, I would stop paying everything immediately. I would also tell him that you'll always be there for him, and talk to your therapist about your fear of seeing him struggle or fail. Purely from a numbers perspective, by no longer taking care of his petty expenses, that money can accumulate to help him with something larger in the future when he needs more support (while he can probably take care of his allowance, he'll probably have trouble for a while with larger payments for tuition, moving, etc.). Maybe you tell him this, maybe you don't.

      I think he isn't going to resent you when you stop "paying him off," if you let him know you're doing this because you respect his decisions and you'll still cheerlead him when he stumbles. All of us have had people in our lives who have done this, but he probably hasn't (as loving as you are, your actions don't send this message). Lastly, your relationship will change, as with my brother, and it might be awkward going for a while with the changing roles, but you'll figure it both out and I wish you both lots of luck and a happy future.

    • Ok, I might have a slightly different take in that I don’t think you should cut him off completely, but you need to end this “If I give you X, I expect you to do Y” approach. First, it isn’t working, probably in part because of his age and all the crap he has been through, he just isn’t equipped to respond to this kind of incentives and may interpret it as conditional love. Second, it’s screwing up the sibling relationship. You can’t step in for absentee parents, it will only make him resent you more. You need to become his sister again, not his mom or his employer.

      So, I would decide what things you are comfortable giving him/paying for. For instance, maybe let him keep the car (transfer title and everything) and pay for the car and health insurance if you can afford it. And those things would be no strings attached, just because you love him and want him to be ok. I.e. it’s a gift, not a loan. Don’t threaten to take it back when he makes you angry.

      And stop paying for everything else. This should leave you with no incentives, no positive reinforcement, no loans, no deals. Just a sibling who you help out with some things, with no expectation of repayment, because you love him. He will have to figure some things out.

      If you ever resume the quid-pro-quo type deals in the future, it should be because he approaches you about it. It may be more effective when he’s older and has had the chance to flounder a bit and come into his own.

      • I agree with this completely.

      • Senior Attorney :

        I agree with this, too. By putting all the strings and expectations on him, you are giving him something to push back against. I like the idea of giving him the car and insurance if you can afford it, and letting him handle everything else. If he wants to live in the car, he can do it. And yes, transfer title because you don’t want the liability.

        My son was not dissimilar to your brother for quite some time, and believe me I know how hard this is. He finally grew up and joined the Marines and is doing really well. There is hope!

  14. kerrycontrary :

    There are at least two women in my large corporate office wearing shoes like this today. Yes, we have a casual dress code but it’s a “use your head” kind of dress code. They look absurdly inappropriate and downright stupid. Save it for the weekend!

  15. I wish I had some words of wisdom, but I don’t. I’ve posted here before about my non-academically inclined, pot smoking son, who also doesn’t have a job and will soon be starting his first (and possibly last) semester of college, so I do know almost exactly the position you are in and how difficult it is. I can say this, I will never allow my son to return home to sit on his fanny and do nothing, which is what it sounds like your brother is doing (albeit at your MIL’s house). My view is, the world only really recognizes two options post high school-school or work. If my son doesn’t do well in school, he most certainly will be working (and will live in his own apt-we are in a low cost of living area). That’s the sad, hard reality of life. You didn’t create it, and I think it’s time your brother came to terms with that reality. Now, paying for therapy for him to help him come to terms with what he’s had to live with, that is an investment I would be willing to make. Car, insurance, phone, allowance-NO times 1 million. I would also be hesitant to make a list of “requirements” that he has to follow-this gives him the option to be mad at you instead of mad at the cold hard world. It’s time he found a job and decided what he wants to do with his life. I would even consider disengaging the MIL housing support-not to kick him out on the street, but to say, since you are not willing to help MIL, you should expect to start paying her rent effective X date. I will help you out by pre-paying 2-3 months. This should allow you to find a job and get on your feet before you assume the rent obligation.

    • SoCalAtty :

      Anon – I did pay for therapy. About 6 months worth of every other week, and he stopped showing up and I started paying cancellation fees. The 25 hours of “work” was supposed to be his rent, I don’t think I said that above. But yes, that all makes sense – but then what do I do when he doesn’t pay rent? Kick him out on the street? That’s my dilemma I think.

      • Yes, I agree the housing is the hardest part. No easy answers there-but as others have said above, I think a timetable is the most important piece. I wouldn’t take things away piecemeal-I’d just say, this is the date it all ends. Again, it’s just my experience that taking away the goodies one by one leads to alot of anger and resentment. Instead, I’d say, it’s reasonable for you to have a job by X date and to start paying for Y by then. That’s the date that our arrangement has to change.

      • An (undergraduate) classmate of mine saw his parents do that to a sibling. After a few nights in the homeless shelter, it made the sibling realize that the world wasn’t some rosy perfect place ruined by his ogre parents.

        That sibling was willing to come to the table and negotiate terms of behavior and to actually honor them after that experience.

      • Yes, you kick him out. I’d probably help him find a place and give him the first month’s rent, or give him enough for a week in a cheap hotel. After that he’d be on his own.

      • Seattleite :

        SoCalAtty, you might find it useful to meet with his therapist for a session to plan your approach to this.

        FWIW, I’ve just finished a bout of this with my otherwise well-adjusted son of the same age. I met with our family counselor for a gut- and mom-attitude-check. From then on out it was just a matter of refusing to get emotional when he did and making sure he knew the door was open if he wanted to come back. Also, that I loved him and wanted to stay in contact even if he didn’t want to come back.

      • If it comes to that, you give him 30 days notice or whatever is appropriate, and then he is out. As I have discussed on here before, I moved out at 16 due to family problems, so my perspective is that it’s definitely not unfair to expect a 20 year old to take care of himself if he won’t abide by the terms of your support.

        • I didn’t know that. I also moved out at 16. If I hadn’t, I’d probably still be in the same small town, except with kids and a drinking problem (or worse).

          • Yep that sounds about right.

            It’s not often that I meet a fellow former “runaway,” especially in the professional world.

          • I’d be more surprised if I didn’t know we were from the same state. And I also don’t know a single professional person who can relate (except for you, now).

    • Minus the pot, that’s my husband. Ugh.

    • If it makes you feel any better, this was my brother. Flunked out of first year college. Then worked for a while at menial jobs. Eventually went back a few years later and now has a masters anda good job. Some kids just need more time to grow up.

  16. Can anyone recommend a good fabric/pill shaver? I have a few cute knit items that are in great shape other than the pilling. Thanks!

    • Try a simple disposable razor. Lay garment on a flat hard surface. Stretch a bit with your hands. Lightly move over it with a disposable razor. Works way better than any of these expensive devices!

    • I’ve used the Remington Battery Operated Fabric Shaver ($8 on Amazon). It’s inexpensive and gets the job done. Just be careful (as with all electric fabric shavers) that your garment is flat so you don’t catch the fabric and create a hole.

      I have also used a basic sweater comb, which works well on my sweaters, but doesn’t work well on other knits that made need some de-fuzzing.

      Hope this helps!

    • This http://www.amazon.com/Dritz-C99-D-Fuzz-It-Fabric-Comb/dp/B0001DUWFO does a better job than anything that plugs in, noiselessly :-). Lasts forever too.

  17. I feel weird posting this, but…. I think some women have offered clothing they no longer wear to see if someone else wants it. So here I go.

    I have two pencil skirts (one black, one kakhi-ish) that are labeled size 6 (but I think they’re closer to 8s), above the knee by a little length on me (I’m 5’9″) that are too big. I think they are the predecessor to the skirt in the link and style is pretty similar (I just bought the skirt in the link in a 6 and it fits perfectly). They are both lined and in good condition.

    I’m motiviated to post this after reading Sydney Bristow’s post this morning about losing weight and buying new clothes—I’m hoping someone who doing the same or is just getting into the work world would like them. If you’re interested, email me and I’ll get your address to ship them. [email protected]


  18. Does anyone have a fitbit? Long hikes every evening (thank goodness for being so far north, it is miserable in the winter but summer is excellent) are about all that is keeping me from pulling out my hair. I thought it might be fun to have something a bit more techy then my cereal box pedometer.

    • My mom has one and *loves* it. She’s really low tech so I don’t know how techy it is. And that’s all I know about it.

      And I’m soooo envious you can hike at night. I know I won’t be in January when you’re probably covered in snow, but I am right now.

      • I’ve had one for about 2 years now – well I’ve had 3 because the break very easily. But I am addicted to the data. I finally kept in the clip that comes with it and haven’t had a break on this one. The company was really good about replacing the broken ones though.

      • We are lucky, snow is pretty minimal although the 6 hours of daylight in January are pretty brutal. I am from the West Coast so I definitely wasn’t used to it. My flat backs up to the crags and there is a 4 mile loop around. I am not a great hiker so I stick to the trail but it is fabulous to escape the city.

      • Yes! Love it – if you get the Fitbit Ultra, it connects to My Fitness pal (free site/app) and inputs calories burned from your walks … even more data!

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      I use the mapmyrun app for everything including hiking. The gps in your phone tracks your distance/speed/calories, etc. It is free too!

    • Youngster :

      I’ve had my fitbit ultra for about a week. It’s a good reality check for how inactive I am at my office job. And it confirmed my suspicions that I fall asleep in about 6 minutes flat.

  19. b*chelorette party ideas :

    trying to avoid moderation …

    hi ladies. it’s my best friend’s b*chelorette party next weekend in miami. we already have our hotel rooms, dinner reservations and such, but i was wondering if anyone had any advice on ideas for “extras” that we can do to make it special? for instance, goodie bags filled with fun things, decorations, etc.? i’ve only thrown one other b*chelorette party before, but that one was in town and not overnight, so it’s a bit different. just looking for some fun ideas that i might not have thought of …

    • Sydney Bristow :

      I threw a b*cherloret*e party in Reno once. We stayed 1 night and made goodie bags filled with a bottle of water, aspirin, mints, those cheesy buttons that say things like “flirty” or “s*xy,” and a picture frame. A few weeks later everyone received a print of a group photo taken that night to put in the frame. We road tripped there from northern California, so the bride actually made CDs full of upbeat girly songs that we had all made suggestions for and we listened to it in the car and then there was also a copy for each of s in the goodie bags.

    • Never done the goodie bag thing, but maybe throw in a different magazine in each bag so you can pass around on the beach. Also, please please please go to the Greek restaurant, Opa I think, in Miami. You eat family style at your table, then the whole place turns into a dance party- dancing on tables, conga lines and stuff. Nothing dirty, just super fun!

  20. I wanted to report two things from my first court hearing ever today:

    1) We won all our major issues. Yay!

    2) Two women who were there as counsel weren’t wearing suits. I don’t want to go into too much detail, but their outfits weren’t mis-matched suit separates either – it was definite bus cas territory. I was pretty shocked. Is this common? Have people seen this when you are at court but not in trial?

    • Congratulations! I had my first ever court hearing earlier this year. It’s a huge accomplishment. Treat yourself to something fun! I stopped at target on the way back from my first ever hearing and bought myself three new bottles of nail polish in ridiculous, trendy colors. :)

      And yes, I have seen that, especially in state court. I’ve seen female attorneys this summer wearing sleeveless summer dresses too, sometimes with our without a blazer. I think it’s pretty common…(not to say it’s “right”) but not unusual.

    • I remember that you’re on a government detail so I’m not sure what court you were in, but in my limited DC experience, state court (Superior Court) is a sh–show so I’m not surprised to hear that if you were there. I don’t have any experience in DC federal courts though.

      Over the river in state court, I generally observe the following: Public defenders often dress in business casual, Commonwealth’s Attorneys often dress less formally, the lowest court runs the gamut in terms of attorney dress, the next highest court rarely sees anything but suits/suit separates in non-trial hearings.

      IMHO, if you’re appearing before a judge, you should be in a suit or suit separates regardless of which court you are in and whether it’s a trial or you’re simply there to set a date or hand up an Order.

    • I once had a colleague go to court in jeans, flipflops and a borrowed blazer. It was casual Friday and she either forgot about the hearing or it was scheduled at the last minute. It was just an arraignment, but the justice of the peace did not allow counsel in her courtroom without a jacket. She laughed at the flipflops and jeans and appreciated that my colleague had sought out a blazer.

    • SAlit-a-gator :

      Yes, I’ve seen some pretty scary things in state court. My fave was a woman that always came to court wearing a mumu with a mismatched jacket. It was not a good look.

    • I go to (state) court pretty regularly. No matter the type of hearing I wear a suit, but I do have a few colleagues who will wear separates for non-trial appearances.

    • Senior Attorney :

      Yay! Congrats, Jenny!

      In my (far west) state court, the female public defenders often wear business casual, especially in misdemeanor court. For some reason the district attorneys seem to be more formal. Interesting because all the men still wear suits to court.

    • Thanks for all your replies – it’s interesting how much variety there is. For the record this was federal court.

    • In federal court every 2-3 days, and I see a lot of casual clothing. Most people wear suits, but a significant segment doesn’t. Cardigans instead of jackets, dresses without a jacket, sneakers instead of shoes.

      While it is helpful to dress the way one is “supposed to,” it often just isn’t that big a deal. Especially for a civil hearing where the client doesn’t come to court…

    • Congrats DC Jenny. It astounds me what counsel wear to court. I’ll wear separates or dresses with coordinating jackets for non-jury court dates but can’t imagine ever going to court without a jacket. I really wish the judges would call out counsel more often. I had a jury trial with a woman who wore chef pants and tevas every day. She dressed up for closing by wearing a black cardigan.

      • What does it matter to you what they’re wearing? You wish judges would “call them out?” Good grief.

      • Yes, it’s unprofessional for counsel to wear items like chef’s pants or tank tops to court appearances. It also impacts the public’s perception of the legal profession. It is up to the judges to enforce the “professional” dress code.

        • Judge anon for this :

          I called 76 cases in my court on Friday. Really, I have enough to do without playing wardrobe police.

          My bailiff will admonish you if you show up in shorts or a tank top, but other than that we don’t have time to enforce the (not written down anywhere that I’m aware of) dress code — especially for people who should know better and will probably run to the Commission on Judicial Performance with a complaint about how mean old Judge Anon For This is discourteous to counsel.

        • I’m not sure if anyone is still reading this, but for the record, Bonnie, I agree with you. I am the first one to say I don’t think we should be judging anyone for running around in flip-flops, leggings, and a messy bun in their personal life, but I do think it’s important to treat a courtroom as a place where Important Things Happen. Because they do. We all go to great lengths to show the judge respect by addressing him or her as your honor and standing when the judge stands – shouldn’t our wardrobes reflect that deference as well?

  21. Reading about tough love for sons and brothers got me thinking about my relationship with my close friend from high school. She refers to herself as my best friend, but in reality I don’t think I am there with her any more. I love her family dearly — they got me through some tough times back in the day, and they are my biggest cheerleaders still. Sometimes I think I’m hanging onto my relationship with my friend mostly because I love her parents. She has been dealing with depression and (I think) anxiety, manifested in being unable to complete college. She has now enrolled and withdrawn by semester’s end more times than I can count. I have gently expressed that college may not be right for her right now, but she remains adamant about completing her degree, even though her intended major is extremely general and does not really qualify her for many more jobs than she could get right now. She lives off her family’s generosity, but she doesn’t show much appreciation or gratitude for the completely subsidized housing and living expenses. There have been a number of personal issues, mostly regarding a lack of communication and general thoughtlessness in her behavior, which have hurt me deeply. When I try to talk to her about any of this, the conversation always ends up with my apologizing and her taking great offense, without actually making any changes. I have tried many times to let it fade away and put distance between us, but I’ve come to feel that I can gain closure by having one last serious talk with her, to air my issues and get her to finally see where I am coming from. Any advice?

    • I just need to dash this off in a second but your last sentence is something I see a lot. People think that if they can only explain, the person who they are explaining to (who up until this point has been selfish, unreasonable, etc,) will suddenly morph into a different person and say “I see where you are coming from, and I understand. We will peacefully go our seperate ways, but know that I will carry this lesson with me in the future and wish you all the best.” The reality is much closer to “your a huge b*tch! How could you say this is MY fault?”

      • e_pontellier :

        This. If I’ve learned anything, it’s that the other person won’t see where you’re coming from. It actually makes conversations with my DH very difficult, because I don’t see any point explaining my point of view (which is counter-productive, I realize, and something I’m working on). With any other relationships though, I find it’s better to just live and let live, as hard as it is.

    • I’m certainly not saying you should hold on to a friendship you’ve moved past, but in her defense, is she being treated for her depression/anxiety? They really are diseases that make acting like a normal human being impossible. I wouldn’t cut her any slack if she’s not seeking professional help, but if she is, the general thoughtlessness could certainly be chalked up to living in her own little hole of depression which make it impossible to see things clearly and be anything but horrificly self-centered.

    • This may be a good situation for an unsent letter. You’ll get to write out your feelings, but you won’t have to deal with the awkwardness of having them not well-received. Keep your distance if it’s necessary for your own well-being and see what happens in the future. And leave the college part out of it – that’s between her and her parents.

      • Sydney Bristow :

        This is a great idea. I had to do this once to someone who broke my heart and it was really helpful to get it all out, return to it a few days later and vent out the rest, then wait awhile longer trying to decide whether to send it. I kind of always knew I wouldn’t send it, but I did consider it. It helped me move on.

        I don’t think she will ever see where you are coming from. At least not as a result of the final conversation. I know that must be really hard though.

    • Anon for this one :

      I got a “you are a thoughtless person and I don’t want to be your friend anymore unless you change” email one time from a good friend. What I did was show it to another friend, and we both agreed that the friend who sent it was the horrible person and I should not respond to the email or ever speak to the person again. I also didn’t change any of my behaviors because of the email, other than not being friends with the sender.

      Point being: airing your grievances doesn’t really do any good. If you don’t want to be friends with this person anymore, don’t be friends with them.

    • I think you’re contradicting yourself a bit here. You say your real relationship is with this friend’s parents. Have they asked you for help in dealing with her? If not, keep up your relationship with them (not making her presence necessary), and don’t go barging into what’s really not your business..

  22. Was watching the Olympics coverage and there was a mini documentary about the 1996 Women’s Gymnastics team. At the end they showed the “what they are doing now” montage. Made me think, if you won a gold medal would you/should you list it on your resume? Perhaps under other interests? What do you think? Let’s say it’s for an unrelated job (ie you aren’t applying to be a gymnastics coach). I noticed one of the women from that 96 team went to Stanford Medical School and is now a pediatrician. I wonder if she lists it on her biography when publishing or similar.

    (I’ll go back to immersing myself now in the Olympics.)

    • yes, absolutely! I would list it under a hobbies/interests section at the bottom. it’s memorable, and demonstrates hard work and dedication like almost nothing else!

    • AnonInfinity :

      If I ever won an Olympics gold metal at anything, I would list it on every resume and bio ever. And I would get a rings tattoo, even though I’d never get a tattoo of anything else. I mean, even if I got a gold metal in basketweaving and I was applying for a position as an attorney. Now, I wouldn’t put it on the front page of my firm’s website (AnonInfinity, Olympic Gold Metal Attorney, & Associates), but yes on the resume, interest section of bio, bio at speaking engagements, etc.

      • That sounds like an awesome firm. One I would deliberately flout the law in order to hire

    • Motoko Kusanagi :

      I’d probably just wear the medal 24/7, Flava Flav clock-style. The resume line would be overkill after that.

    • You should list it if you were in the Olympics at all, not just if you won a medal. Also if you were a Division 1 or professional athlete. IMO competing in top-level athletics indicates that you have unusually high self-discipline and time management skills. It definitely would give you an advantage if I were reviewing your application.

      • Maddie Ross :

        I list my Division III sport on my web bio for this reason. Sure it wasn’t DI, but I also certainly did not get any breaks academically for my sport. I agree that it shows discipline. And is also a great conversation starter with new clients or opposing counsel who have viewed my page.

        • Yeah, I really shouldn’t have limited it to D1. Sorry – did not mean to suggest that athletes in other divisions do not have as much discipline or time management skills. I know that’s not the case.

      • On the other hand, one of the worst jerks I ever worked for talked constantly about how HE was in the Olympics, and that made him such an exceptional blah blah blah. This was 20 years previously. If I ever saw a reference to sports on a techie resume, I’d push that delete button so fast..

    • Leslie Knope :

      I absolutely would list it! It shows unbelievable dedication and commitment, and it would be a great icebreaker for interviews. On a more practical note, I would imagine that Olympians’ resumes would look really strange if they scrubbed all references to their training time.

    • Many of the women medalists have gone on to stellar careers – names escape me but one was a US Woman’s softball pitcher and the other was a figure skater. Both are surgeons now. I think the type of drive needed to get a gold medal is indicative of determination and would be very good shown on a resume or a grad-school application.

    • Only semi-related, but I went on a date with an Olympic athlete once, and it was like…DUDE, OKAY, I GET THAT YOU WERE IN THE OLYMPICS, BUT THAT WAS EIGHT YEARS AGO. FOR GOD’S SAKE, TELL ME YOU’VE DONE SOMETHING SINCE.

      (and you came in twelfth, okay? If you’re Usain Bolt, you get a pass, but if you didn’t even make the final, you do NOT get to talk about it all night.)

      • Seattleite :

        cbackson, you travel in much more worldly circles than I. Olympic athletes? Minor European royalty? I’m basking in the reflected glory.

        • I totes agree, I love your stories! ;-)

        • Well, lest anything fear I’m getting above myself, I have a cousin who went to jail for cattle rustling. Actually, being honest, it was prison. Federal prison. He transported them across state lines, and there were a lot of them. So I’m trashy at heart :).

          • umm… i love this just as much as the other stories… so much more exciting than my life! ;o)

    • I can answer this one, because a bunch of my friends (and former teammates) just won gold medals yesterday (Gooooo women’s waterpolo!!!!! Gooooo Stanford (Kerri Walsh, Bryan twins–there’s a lot of Stanford athlete gold medalists this year!!!!!). Yes, it is on your resume! Some of my gold (or silver or bronze, in years past) friends took those medals and added them to the academic and professional accomplishments they have had. Some of my friends really just kept playing (professionally) and so the gold medal was the icing on their sports resume, and they didnt’ really have a professional resume, since it’s hard to have more than a part-time job when you are in FT training with the natty team.

      For the record, investment banks and consulting firms LOOOOVE trotting out medal-winners, as do top business schools. They eat that stuff up. Makes me embarassed to “only” have national champion and All-American at the bottom of my resume :) It’s not like I won the Olympics, like my friends did! So AWESOME!!! Sooo PROUD!!!

      • Omigosh, that is SO COOL! Youre like all 1 degree of separation from the Olympics?! I am so Jellus! Thanks for letting us bask vicariously, MJ, Woo!!! GO US WOMEN’S WATERPOLO, Woo!!!

      • #humblebrag

        • Not even humble. BRAGBRAGBRAG! I am proud of my and my teammates’ athletic accomplishments and always will be. We took the same classes that our non-athlete classmates did (and got good grades), trained to exhaustion at 1-2 practices a day for 3-4 hours, plus training room time, plus transport time. And we generally had less time per day to study, and had to study when really, really tired.

          Yeah–I’m proud of my collegiate career and quadruple proud of my teammates that trained for YEARS to represent our country. And for my friends who kept playing and are now indisputably the best in the world…it’s awesome.

          I don’t think that many people can say that they’ve dreamt of something for years, often since childhood, and put aside nearly all other aspects of their life to make it happen, big time. I think that’s why the Olympics are so inspiring. The singular focus and dedication that it takes–it’s superhuman when you’re watching from the couch!!!! Definitely a “what have I done lately” sort of feeling….for the rest of us mortals.

          • good lord relax. your bragging to a bunch of strangers about being a national champion in college.

          • Actually, CFM, I’ve been a national champion in college, a USWP champion since college, and national runner up in b-school. So, yeah, I’m a big fat has-been! Cheers!

          • again dude, you are internet bragging to strangers. If corpor3tt3rs gave their resumes every comment we’d be here all day

    • I worked a little with this 96 gold medal winner – he’s a salesperson and very much uses his Olympic accomplishments to sell his product. He sent us product information and included a picture of him at the Olympics and autographed it for us – it was a little non sequitur we did not ask/express any interest/even discuss the Olympics with him, but interesting nonetheless. I’m on his emailing list and he pretty much always headlines his sales promo emails with the Olympic thing. I’m not sure how effective it is, although I do remember him even though we haven’t worked together for quite a while. And that says something.


    • Alanna of Trebond :

      Worked two summers ago with an Olympic Gold Medalist (she just won again this summer), and she occasionally brought her medal to summer associate events and often wore her opening ceremonies costume. It was kind of cool at first, but then it seemed a bit odd.

      So I would list it on my resume, but not bring it everywhere.

      As for my professional resume, I’ve listed my athletic achievements on it.

    • LOVE! I’d totally wear it everywhere too.

      Someone in my town won one for hockey and flies an olympic flag at their house. I love it.

  23. Ok this is a silly TJ.

    My office has gotten lottery obsessed. At first it was oh, fun, the jackpot is big, let’s all pitch in. Fine, no problem. Then it became twice a month, which is fine I guess. Then weekly. And now its been twice a week for a while. That’s $10 a week. Now, I would have no problem just saying hey, um I’m out. but when I tried that my boss came in and continually pressured me until I caved in and handed over my $5. Everyone else in the office thinks this is fun, I (the person with the most expensive commute, and one of the lowest salaries) am just getting annoyed with seeing $40 down the drain every month. And when the idea was thrown out to pool our meager winnings and simply buy breakfast for the office and then cut our losses, I was the only person who voted for that…everyone else wants to use the money to keep buying more tickets, in addition to the money we are already giving.

    Not sure if anyone has any advice, or really if this was just a great place to vent. Either way, thanks for reading.

    • K...in transition :

      we’re best friends, right, Wit? Do you wanna play the lotto with me too? No? You can’t afford double the costs? Well then -I- think you ought to explain to your boss/colleagues that your best friend asked you to play the lotto with her and, since you can’t do both, you just feel like it wouldn’t be right for you to play at the office and not with your best friend.


    • Just keep resisting. I would try to make sure its humerous like “Oh no, I’m not going to buy in anymore. But think about how good itll feel to gloat to me when you guys win!” or something like that

    • You need to figure out a way to stand up to your boss on this issue. Have you tried telling him that you have a lot on your plate right now, and that you don’t want to spend $40/month on the lottery?

    • $5 lottery tix? Wow.

      It’s extremely inappropriate for your boss to pressure you to gamble. Extremely inappropriate. But I wouldn’t make a big deal about it. Just decline to participate every single time he asks you, and be firm.

      • I agree. I can’t believe that your boss is making you do this!! Totally bizarre. That’s a lot of money going down the drain, esp. in this tough economy.

    • Just wondering, when your boss came in and pressured you, was there any chance that the way you said “no” sounded like you could be persuaded to say “yes”? I’m making gigantic assumptions here, so feel free to disregard, but I think women often feel uncomfortable with a firm “no” (is your boss male or female?) and so say no in a way that sounds like they just need some prodding to get to “yes” (even that they really want to say “yes” but feel guilty and so are hoping to be prodded). If that’s the case, you might just need to tell your boss “no” in a more decisive way next time.

    • Ask for a $40 a month raise.

    • The lottery is just an extra tax for people who are bad at maths.

      Try talking to the boss in private and say that you’re a bit uncomfortable with the lottery thing – you pitched in at first because you wanted to be a team player, but you’re really not that into gambling, so could you please take the pressure off me a bit?

    • I don’t know you’re budget, but I might say something like I’d rather get Starbucks on Lottery day and have INSTANT gratification. When they pass the hat, wave your mug and say, Oh, dang, I spent my last cash on this! I don’t think you want to talk about it as a waste of money (though it probably is), because then they’ll feel judged.

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      My work is in on it too but luckily it is $2/ticket and it is only for the decent sized games. My prior job was too. At prior job it was acceptable to say “no thanks” but current job I would be odd man out in a bad way. I was even out of the office a couple times on lottery day and someone just “threw in” for me. I don’t mind playing though and don’t find it quite burdensome yet but I just wanted you to know you are not alone in feeling the pressure.

      • Blonde Lawyer :

        Oh and at my prior job, everyone was expected to chip in for the superbowl square pool thing and basketball brackets. The games would be made up assuming everyone was in and you would get an email not asking if you wanted to play but telling you who your money was due to and by when. If you didn’t pitch in you got included on firm wide “late payment” emails. I know someone who tried to back out (I believe on religious grounds actually) and there was so much complaining about how the grids had to be redrawn and that this was just harmless fun. They made it very clear that he who does not play will not be liked.

    • You need to explain to these people that the odds of “the office” winning big are infinitesimally small, and so plowing the earnings back into the lottery is as good as burning them. They may as well just hand them to you and have you buy bad platform shoes with them. On the other hand, your own contribution could not possibly make a difference, since infinitely more of them would still make their odds of winning.. nearly zero.

      Do keep throwing statistics at them every time they sollicit you. If you’re going to cave in, make them suffer through at least 15mn of mathematical arguments against it first. Since, statistically speaking, it’s likely you’re working in a law office :-), they’ll be most annoyed and confused and may just stop harrassing you.

      I agree it’s totally inappropriate to be pressuring you over this though, really, really inappropriate. Aren’t you worried your boss may be gambling it all in commodities or junk bonds or something, and you’ll come in some morning and find the place closed down? Don’t ever let them owe you any salary, ever.

  24. Hive:

    Landlord issue. The basement of our house (which includes a guest room, my closet, a storage closet and a guest bathroom) has flooded for the FIFTH time. Not bad flooding ever, but a general pain. The first time it flooded during a tropical storm, but now it floods during a hard rain. The landlord keeps saying he thinks he has found the problem each time (although it took two floods before he came out to see the property) and has dug a drainage ditch, etc., but it’s now pretty clear that seal on the house is bad. I know y’all must be thinking we are crazy for still living there but we love the house – it’s a beautiful renovation, and we are saving to buy and I can’t stand the thought of moving and the expenses that come with it. Am I crazy? We found some water this morning and he hasn’t responded to our phone calls or emails yet. And I stopped by at lunch and he hasn’t come by or anything. I’m just a bit furious and guess I needed to rant, as the obvious answer is to just move out (we are month to month). Anyone else have bad landlord experiences?

    • Honey Pillows :

      I do not have time to go into the long, explosive, verbally abusive rant about my previous landlords -like the one who said I didn’t need heat until mid December and refused to fix my thermostat because clearly I had broken it to spite him, or the one who blamed the black mold problem on us, because the pipes in the upstairs apartment didn’t start to leak until we moved in, and had a habit of calling in contractors immediately to start a project but wouldn’t actually make them finish for months -ensuring the fridge and stove stayed in our 8×15 living room and the kitchen stayed in pieces for three months.

      But yes. I have had TERRIBLE landlords. Demand he pro-rate your rent for the lost use of that space.

      Temporary fix by yourself: figure out where in the walls the water is seeping through by lining the baseboards with towels and checking them regularly during rainstorms. Then you’ll need to keep that area empty and put down puppy training pads (upside down) to easily contain the water.

    • Divaliscious11 :

      No, but as someone who has had 4 roofers out to try and find a leak, with each one thinking they’d found it, I can empathize with your landlord thing he’s found the problem each time. Unless he is there during the rain, leaks are terribly hard to pin point….

      I THINK I figured out the leak….and it isn’t on the roof…..

    • Dear Petunia, when you say basement, surely you mean first floor, right? Like under a raised house? Houses in a city below sea level should not have basements. Even ground level is pushing it. Your landlord shouldn’t have put real living space in an area like that in the first place. Yeah, you need to move out. That said, flooding patterns have changed in the city over the years and can be caused by clogged street drains. The street in front of my house now floods, but the side does not. Sorry you’re having to go through this.

      • Hi NOLA,

        It’s not actually a basement – we’ re in a raised shotgun and the downstairs is ground level. We had the city come out and clean the catch basins after the first flood, and our street doesn’t get bad water when it rains. We finally got a hold of the landlord this afternoon and he didn’t sound like he had much of a clue of what to do. Fingers crossed we can find something new over the weekend and move out. Also, fingers crossed we don’t get a real storm this year. *shudder*.

        In the meantime, we’re going to my new favorite restaurant, a mano, for dinner and Im going to continue to silently RAWR in my head like Godzilla.

        Thanks for reaching out- hope you have a great weekend!

        • If your street isn’t flooding and your house is, your landlord has some serious drainage issues on his property. Yikes! Yesterday was just hideous. I was in my colleague’s office and water was bubbling up out of the ground like a geyser outside her window. Just unbelievable. Ground floor of a raised house can be problematic. The only time I’ve ever done that is on St. Charles where the house was way up off of the street to start with. You need to find a new place. Unfortunately, moving in this heat could be a bear. Good luck! And I hope a mano is wonderful.

  25. Lionheart :

    I am an attorney at a civil firm (8 attorneys and 10 support staff) and have been asked to take over the full management of the office (manage the staff, attorneys, marketing/profitability, and facility). This comes on the heels of the partners demoting the current office manager who will remain at the company as a secretary. I am wondering if running a full office entails so much busy or business work that it will take up my entire work life and leave no time for practicing law. Is this a step sideways instead of a step up?

    • Are you just taking over the work of the now-secretary, or are you taking on responsibility for the way the office practices law (e.g., staffing cases, interacting with clients, etc.)? If the former, then it’s a step sideways/interim step until they hire/promote a new manager. If the latter, is it possible they’re testing you to see if you’re partner material?

      • Lionheart :

        I believe it’s taking over for the now secretary (who used to manage staff and the building) plus managing the attorneys and marketing the practice. Interacting with existing clients and gaining more is likely expected. I was told I could write my job description and title and the partners would discuss and approve it. I get the feeling they want to focus on practicing and let someone else (read: me) sweat the details.

        • Not an atty, but this seems like a bad idea unless you want move away from practicing law.

          Just because you could do this well does not mean it would be good for career.

          • Totally agree. No matter what raise may be involved, this sounds like the end of your career as an attorney..

    • Anne Shirley :

      So you’d be an attorney, an office manager, and the marketing and HR departments? Accounting too? Run for the hills.

      • This. It sounds to me like no one at your firm wants to do this work, the partners don’t consider this actual “work” (i.e., they will not compensate extra or enough for it), and that the partners don’t have any idea how much time will be involved to get all the work done for the tasks involved here. If it was so great, one of them would be doing it. Run for the hills.

        • This. If you have never done admin before, you will be surprised at how much time it takes. If you have…I’m a little surprised if you have the time for *and* be able to continue your fulltime regular hours.

    • new york associate :

      I’m at a bigger firm and it probably doesn’t translate, but IMHO, the only way you should take this on is if they give you a budget to hire an office manager. You cannot run an office and practice law. I just don’t think it’s possible.

    • e_pontellier :

      Don’t do it!! You won’t have any time to practice law! Our office manager (of 12 attys) does nothing other than manage the office and there is no way you’d be able to continue your current caseload.

      • 25 attorney firm here, and we have a full-time office manager, two people in HR, and a full time executive director, and even with that, our librarian ends up supervising the paralegals.

    • Sydney Bristow :

      Honestly, it sounds like a step down. Why did they demote the current office manager? It seems like they are demoting you without officially doing so because I can’t imagine you having enough time to manage the office AND keep up with your current case load, let alone try to bring in new clients.

    • Senior Attorney :

      I would proceed with extreme caution!

      One of my rules is that I try never to take a job where the previous holder of that job has failed. It’s very tempting to be the one to come in, clean things up, set things right, show ’em how it’s done, turn things around, and be the big hero. But in reality, most of the time the reason the previous person failed is because the job is un-doable, and you probably won’t be able to succeed any better than he or she did. Far better to come in on the heels of someone who was perceived to be doing an amazing job, because at least then you know it’s possible to succeed.

      And yes, running a law office is definitely a full time job and will absolutely cut into your legal practice. If you do take over the management job, make sure you are compensated for it over and above your compensation as an attorney!

      Or better yet, just say “no.”

    • Are there any adjustments to your expected billable hours for taking on all of the administrative burden of the practice in addition to your job?

      It sounds like they don’t want to deal with getting another office manager so they are pushing the responsibilities onto you – I agree with the others that this may not be good for your career.

    • Lionhearted :

      Wow! This is my first experience with the hive wisdom of corperette readers. Thank you so much for your thoughts I’ll report back with what happens once I know myself.

  26. Anonymous :

    OP here- thanks so much, all! Now going to google the C*ette thread a few weeks back with favorite workout music. This site is fantastic.

  27. Stuck in moderation; sorry if this gets two postings.

    I think some women have offered clothing they no longer wear to see if someone else wants it. So here is my offering.

    I have two pencil skirts (one black, one khaki-ish) that are labeled size 6 (but I think they’re closer to 8s), above the knee by a little length on me (I’m 5’9″) that are too big. I think they are the predecessor to the Nordstrom Halogen Cotton Blend Pencil Skirt and style is pretty similar (I just bought the new version in a 6 and it fits perfectly). They are both lined and in good condition.

    I’m motiviated to post this after reading Sydney Bristow’s post this morning about losing weight and buying new clothes—I’m hoping someone who doing the same or is just getting into the work world would like them. If you’re interested, email me and I’ll get your address to ship them. [email protected]

    • Sydney Bristow :

      You are awesome for doing that! I’ll have to remember to do that with my stuff as I don’t fit it anymore. I’m moving this weekend, so I donated about 2/3 of my old wardrobe that no longer fits. As I move down from this size (16/18), I’ll try to post here if people are interested. Actually, didn’t someone here set up a clothing swap account at another site?

    • This is such a nice idea. As it happens, I have a suit that no longer fits me that I’d like to pass on as well. It’s a J Crew pant suit, size 8 (both top and bottom). I’m 5’9″ with very long legs, and I can wear the pants with low to medium heels, so the inseam is probably about 33″. The color is brown, though under some lights it can almost appear olive. The jacket is 2-button.

      The suit is at least 6 years old, but it’s been very infrequently worn and is in excellent condition. I haven’t worn it at all for the last three and a half years, but I’ve held onto it because of a sentimental attachment. I found it at a Salvation Army store during my senior years of college for $15, and it was my interview suit (and by far the nicest/most professional outfit I owned for the next several years). It always made me feel polished and confident in a time of my life when a lot of things felt very uncertain. I’d love to pay it forward and pass it on to someone else who is in the beginning of their career and doesn’t have the money to buy a nice suit.

      If this sounds like you (or anyone you know) you can get in touch with me at runnergalnyc at gmail dot com. Just promise to try and love it as much as I do. =)

  28. Another Anon :

    Thoughts on junior league? I have been toying with joining for several years but just can’t decide if this is me. Would love to hear if it has been a good experience for others.

    • I joined in 2010 and have had a great experience with the League. It was a wonderful way to make friends with other women and has been a good networking tool as well. I was slightly hesitant to join because of the old Junior League reputation for being rather exclusive and more for “ladies who lunch,” but I was pleasantly surprised to find a very welcoming and diverse group of ladies. I would absolutely recommend it.

    • Junior Leaguer :

      I’ve been in the League for 7 years and my experiences have been kind of all over the map. It varies a LOT by chapter, so it’s hard to generalize. However, some things I’ll put out there:
      1) Provisional year can be a lot of work. I feel very lucky that I joined in a city where it was on the lighter side; when I heard my current chapter’s requirements for provisionals, I was floored. Probably wouldn’t have joined if I had to do all that. The downside is that I really didn’t have a good provisional experience, most of our class never made it to active status, and I didn’t make any friends that year. The provisionals here seem super close, probably because the course is better-run and they spend a lot more time together.

      My old chapter was not very social, nor did I get the impression that many of the members were all about the mission of voluntarism (of course, there were some people who were really into it and did amazing good works). The mentality was more geared toward networking doing things to put on resumes.

      Inter-league politics can sometimes get exhausting. If you join, I recommend staying away from “internal” committees and sitting on community-based committees for at least your first couple years as an active.

      Depending on what your chapter requires, it can get a bit pricey. In addition to annual dues, there is usually some kind of fundraising quota (i.e. extra money you have to pay, clothes/goods you have to donate if you’re in a chapter with a thrift shop, merchandise you are supposed to buy, etc). I’d estimate that being a member has cost me around $400/year in both my former and current chapter.

      In my current city, I’m having a much better time. The projects are more fun, and even though the people seem a bit more laid-back, everything runs a lot more smoothly. And it’s been awesome to have a way to meet people here, since I didn’t know anyone when I moved. A few years ago, I was ready to quit but now I’m really glad I didn’t. The trouble is, you can’t really choose the culture of the chapter where you live, so if you don’t click with the one in your geographic area, you are kind of SOL.

      Recruiting generally takes place in the spring and provisional courses start in the late summer/early fall, so you probably couldn’t join until next year unless your local chapter still has space available. Definitely go to a meet-and-greet session when they happen so you can meet some current members and get a feel for what they’re like. I joined on the recommendation of a friend and never went to a meet-and-greet, but I probably would have been better equipped for the way that chapter was if I’d gone.

      I hope that helps a bit! I know it’s not exactly a ringing endorsement, but overall I’m (now) very happy to be a member.

      • Another Anon :

        That does help – I just found out that mine does have a few spots, but I am juggling new role in my states bar organization + being a new mom, so wondering if I should wait a year before doing the provisional thing.

        • Junior Leaguer :

          FWIW, I’ve found the JL (both places) to be extremely supportive of mommyhood. But I would vote for waiting until next year, it sounds like you have a lot on your plate right now. The JL will be there whenever you feel like your life has settled down a bit!

      • Agreed that provisional year can be A LOT of work. I did it as second year Biglaw associate and unfortunately had to quit Junior League…. Apparently some attorneys can swing it, but it was just impossible for me.

  29. Do a Canadian a favor? :

    Just going to throw this out there- if anyone is hitting the Loft F&F sale, I really want the Dobby stripe corded trench but Loft doesn’t ship to Canada… If someone could buy it and put it on eBay, I’ll ‘buy it now’ for $100 usd via paypal and pay the shipping to Canada. Size small. Fingers crossed someone can help me out!!

    • Seriously, if Loft shipped to Canada I might buy it too despite my shopping ban.

      I am trying to forget that my BF has a PO Box just across the border….

    • If you want to buy it yourself you can have it shipped to my apartment and I will ship it to you for the cost of shipping. I’ll even cut the tags off and pretend it’s not new so you don’t have to pay duty. If you’re interested, give me an email where I can reach you. :)

  30. I’m having menu planning block (I’ve decided that’s a thing) for dinner tomorrow night. So, if you were attending dinner at a friend’s house for a dinner get together you would like to have…..


    • This would be my dream night at a friend’s house for dinner in the summer:

      Snacks when I arrive: hummus & pita chips / carrots, good cheese w/ good bread, Cocchi Americano cocktails.

      Starter: Tomato salad w/ burrata.

      Main: Grilled meat, nicely marinated, with grilled asparagus and/or corn and good bread and red wine.

      Dessert: Doesn’t matter what it is, as long as there’s dessert.

    • Lasagne. But then, that’s pretty much my answer to every food question.

      • Lasagna cupcakes! Make them in a muffin tin, and use wonton wrappers (less heavy than noodles and easier).

    • Gruyere risotto with mushrooms and asparagus. Heaven in my mouth.

      • http://cakebatterandbowl.com/gruyere-risotto-with-asparagus-and-mushrooms.html

        Her recipe is fantastic.

    • onehsancare :

      Grilled salmon (marinate in lemon juice, olive oil, parsley, garlic, rosemary); green salad; zucchini, also grilled. Really GOOD vanilla ice cream with fresh berries. (I’m into EASY.)

    • Reposting without foul language to describe a mixed drink to avoid moderation:
      This would be my dream night at a friend’s house for dinner in the summer:
      Snacks when people arrive: hummus & pita chips / carrots, good cheese w/ good bread, Cocchi Americano with club soda and ice.
      Starter: Tomato salad w/ burrata.
      Main: Grilled meat, nicely marinated, with grilled asparagus and/or corn and good bread and red wine.
      Dessert: Doesn’t matter what it is, as long as there’s dessert.

    • Thank you for all the wonderful ideas!! I took a lot of them and had a kick a** dinner.

  31. Oh.so.tired :

    Can anyone recommend jean brands for my apple shape? 5’7, sz 10 fwiw. After a full weekend of trying on jeans and nothing fitting right, I’m so close to giving up!

  32. Feeling Really Awkward :

    Help. I had been feeling a little uncomfortable at work about something, and I’m wondering if this is something I should be uncomfortable with. I am an intern and one of the permanent employees at my office has asked my co-intern several times to do activities outside of work with her. It is an activity they both are really into and obviously share a common interest. She always says no to him, but it still makes me a bit uncomfortable. I am somewhat young and have never worked in an office before this job, but is this something I should feel uncomfortable hearing, or is this a perfectly acceptable interaction?

    • AnonInfinity :

      It sounds like you either share an office or he asks her to do this activity in hearing range of others. If so, this is not shady. Especially since they share a common interest in the activity.

      The whole notion that men bosses can’t do anything with women employees for fear of seeming like they are flirting or sleeping together is really irritating to me. I truly feel that it holds all of us back. (stepping off the soapbox now…)

      • AnonInfinity, re your last paragraph– SO THIS. I hate that this happens, and I hate this attitude. It really does hold women back, and I saw it all the time at my old job. Informal networking can be so important to advancement, and it’s such a shame when women are shut out or shut themselves out because of a de facto or perceived informal ban on men/women spending time together.

    • I’m a little confused, but get the impression the permanent employee is male and the intern is female. That would raise some red flags for me, but it doesn’t sound like it’s any of your business so I wouldn’t worry about it too much. If the permanent employee and the intern have a reporting relationship, however, it might be more of a concern.

    • Well, I would assume that if she always says no, she thinks he’s hitting on her (even if he doesn’t mean to hit on her) and he should take a hint and start asking. But that aside, from what you describe it’s not unusual at all. I do stuff with coworkers, including interns, outside of the office all the time. It’s nice to be friends with your coworkers.

    • TurtleWexler :

      Hard to say without knowing the activity. If they’re both into tennis and he wants to get together to play a match, I don’t think that’s inappropriate. If he’s trying to get her to visit his swinger’s club, that’s an entirely different matter…

  33. Anonforthis :

    I’ve seen some good discussions here about how to cope with job hunting in this economy, but I have two questions for the Hive that I haven’t really seen addressed. First, any thoughts on maintaining your dignity when job hunting and getting repeated rejections in a relatively small town with an even smaller professional community? It’s getting to where I can’t turn around without running into someone who works for an organization that I’ve been rejected from. I’ve even had to attend parties with people who sat on the very search committee that decided I wasn’t good enough. I’m feeling beaten down and antisocial at precisely the time I need to be out networking and trying to find something. Second, any tips for dealing with people who tell you that you just need to “think positive” and “focus on what you want and it will come?” Because strangling isn’t an option, and I need an alternative. I can’t stand being made to feel like my lack of a job is due to some failure of will on my part. I’ve been trying so hard to remain upbeat and optimistic, and now I’m just worn out.

    • I looked for a job for 13 months so I know exactly how you feel…all I can say is that you CANNOT take rejection as an comment on you are as a person. You don’t know how or why any job was given to someone else, it may have had nothing to do with your qualifications, and it certainly has nothing to do with your character. Hold your head high and know you did your best, you have no reason to be upset or ashamed when you encounter these people in the future. As to the comments, after a while people just run out of things to say to a long-term job hunter. I would be honest and tell them that you appreciate that they are trying to be helpful but that is not what you need to hear right now.

    • No no no! They haven’t decided you’re “not good enough”! They’ve decided you’re not the right candidate for a particular job. There is a WORLD of difference between the two! I was out of work for 10 months and have had the same experience (i.e., parties with people who did not hire me). You are the equal of everyone else in your profession. You do not know what happened in those meetings where people decided whether to offer you a job. Here are possibilities: (1) they already had someone in mind who was the nephew/college roommate/frat brother/tennis partner of one of the people hiring but they had to do a search for some legal reason; (2) there was a skill they never said they wanted but when someone showed up with that skill they realized they wanted it (e.g., business development); (3) they really liked you but weren’t sure you were that interested in the job; (4) you were overqualified and they thought you’d bolt the second you got a better offer; (5) you have the same name as the main hiring person’s ex-wife; (6) you give off a type-A go-getter vibe and they’re a more laid-back office; (7) the main hiring person had a dream that she hired you and you turned out to be an alien intent on destroying Earth. You have no frickin’ idea why you didn’t get the job. So why not assume the best? Assume each person really wanted to hire you but just had to hire the boss’s niece instead. Walk up to that person at the party and say how great it is to see him/her and make small-talk with total confidence. Even if that person wasn’t able to hire you, that person knows other people and may have been sufficiently impressed to pass along your name as in “hey, we had a great candidate. We couldn’t hire her because we had to hire the boss’s niece, but we were definitely impressed. Want me to ask her to apply to your company?” Seriously. This happens. I’ve been on both sides (and heard the inside scoop when I was the one looking for work). Ninety percent of the time, it has nothing to do with whether you’re good enough.

      • Wise words, TBK. They may be harder to apply in a small town, where you’re constantly running into people, but they still do apply..

    • I can’t comment on your exact situation since I am in a small town and trying to leave for any of 3 nearby cities, but I did have to chime in on the rejection thing. I’ve been searching unsuccessfully since February 2011. It is SO hard not to get down on yourself and I completely understand wanting to punch people who tell you to stay positive. You are allowed to be worn out. Job searching is mentally and emotionally taxing, especially when you’re already working a full time position! The only thing I can keep telling myself is that if I don’t keep applying, I’m never going to get out of the awful job I have (or I’ll have to quit and do contract work since my hatred for my boss just keeps growing). Try to think of it as having to put one foot in front of the other. If you can drum up some positive thoughts and optimism, great. But if not, that’s okay! Just keep moving.

  34. Freaking Out :

    Irregular cycle question. I’m in my early 40s and had very heavy abnormal bleeding 1 week after my my regular period ended. It lasted two days with seemingly no let up and was followed by (so far) 3 days of minimal spotting. Have been to gyno and have a scheduled ultrasound. Waiting for pap results. Meanwhile, since it could be any # of things and I don’t have a good history of regular screenings, I’m in a constant state of worry and can’t stop self-diagnosing with various worse case scenarios. Anyone out there ever experience anything similar and have it turn out that the irregularity was for benign reasons?

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      Yes. I was young and on the pill and out of nowhere just got my period. It was heavy but not insane heavy. It lasted two weeks. It started the day after I had sex w/ my bf (not for the first time either) and I was freaking out that I had somehow damaged something. Gyno scared the crap out of me telling me I might be pregnant. (I’ve never heard of anyone bleeding for 2 weeks b/c they are pregnant but whatevs.) All tests came back normal and the bleeding went away and my uterus and I lived happily ever after.

    • Is there any chance you could have gotten pregnant and miscarried? That happened to my sister once. She got what seemed to be her period, and then a positive pregnancy test a few days later, and then a miscarriage that was like a heavy period.

      Cycles are so weird though – it seems like abnormal is the normal.

      • This was my thought too.

        Irregular periods can also could be an early sign of menopause. My mom started in her early 40s.

    • My cycle is often weird, so I might not be the best indicator, but I once had bleeding that was about as heavy as a period for three continuous weeks! Visits to the gyno, ultrasounds, paps, etc, revealed nothing, and everything went back to basically normal in a few months. My gyno’s explanation was basically sometimes something just throws your body out of whack. In my experience stressing about it is likely to aggravate any abnormalities in your cycle, so just try to let it go until you hear something.

      • Thanks ladies. The gyno also mentioned how all the symptoms indicated a miscarriage too, but I took a home pregnancy test and it was negative. I’m crossing my fingers it’s perimenopause…now there’s a sentence I never thought I’d write.

        • I’m really late to this, but my first miscarriage was after a negative pregnancy test. I skipped my period one month, and though my husband and I had been halfheartedly “trying”, I was also really stressed out – we were buying our first house – so when I took the EPT and it was negative, I attributed the missed period to stress. About three weeks after my skipped period, I started bleeding heavily, with severe cramping. I stayed home from work one day due to cramps, which I had never done. Then I started passing clotty looking stuff and went to the ER, where a blood test indicated I was indeed pregnant. Or had been, because the clotty looking stuff probably contained the embryo and it was already gone. I’m sorry if this is TMI, but I wanted to tell you what a miscarriage would look like. I had a second miscarriage years later, but this time I knew I was pregnant and was farther along, and it was very similar to the first.

          Now – perimenopause. I think I’m in perimenopause. I’m 47, and my periods are regular at 21 to 25 days apart, but that is seriously closer than the 30+ days I used to run in my prime. As a trade-off, my periods only last 1-3 days and are pretty light. I can’t be sure this is entirely due to age/perimenopause, as I now take spironolactone for acne and the spiro messes with one’s hormones.

          On the other hand, one of my best girlfriends who is 48 is having heavy periods every two to three weeks (which sucks. We often have to go have some wine after work when she gets it only two weeks after the last because that just Isn’t Fair) and her gyn has told her this is also perimenopause. I think there is no one way to do perimenopause. I would think early 40s is a bit young for it, but you have to look at your own family history.

          Hope this helps. Don’t Dr. Google yourself into a state. Get in to see your gyn and get back on track with regular screenings, but don’t freak out. I don’t think much of the really bad stuff that can happen to your ladygarden is associated with extra periods, anyway.

          • Yeah I’m definitely in perimenopause. I go 2-3 months without having a period, then I’ll have one that’s really heavy. I’m on the pill so that may keep it a bit more in check. I’ve heard that your experiences in menopause are often like your own mother’s – do you know how it went for your mother? I don’t because my mom passed away at 49, but I know she’d had those really heavy periods for a few years.

            I hope you can figure this out. Honestly, what mamabear is describing about the miscarriage sounds more likely, but I guess time will tell.

          • Blonde Lawyer :

            NOLA – god I hope not. My mother had the menopause from hell and turned into a nasty lady during that time.

          • Yeah, I don’t seem to be having the same symptoms my mother had at this age. I’m also not built anything like my mother. I look like and am built like my mother’s sister and she was a complete psycho going through menopause. God help me, too.

  35. If you’ve posted on this site asking for advice, received helpful comments, but haven’t come back to give us an update, how about filling us in now? Anybody know what happened with the poster who was going to confront the man she was dating and whom she found out might be married when she happened on a picture of him and his (ex)wife on facebook?

    • Out of all the situations discussed, this is also the one that I often wonder about.

    • Marie Curie :

      I don’t know if anyone remembers, but I posted about my boyfriend who couldn’t get a job and was applying to his dream job in academia and I thought he wasn’t quite ready yet (for academia in general) and would be rejected again … well, he got an interview for Dream Job and is now waiting to hear back. Good news, except that Dream Job is in a city 5 hours away so we would be looking at four years long distance relationship until the contract is up. I don’t know what to feel right now. I mean, I want to be happy for him but the thought of not seeing him regularly for years is not great. (I can’t leave my city because of grad school and job.) So yeah, I try not to think about it and put my head into the sand.

      • 5hrs. sounds far but it’s the four years that would get to me. Still, I know a girl whose been with her out of state boyfriend for 6+ years. They keep in touch everyday by skype, text, or phone, take turns flying out to see each other, and take vacations together. So it’s do-able if you’re committed to make it work. Let us know how it goes and how you’re doing! Good luck.

      • TO Lawyer :

        Awe this is hard! Hugs! My boyfriend and I live a four-hour flight away and see each other about once a month. It is hard (and expensive) but we’re making it work (for now).

        I agree with NewAnon – the hardest part about your situation is that it would be for 4 years. Sometimes, the only thing that keeps me going is knowing that in approximately 14 months, we’ll be able to see each other for about 10 days a month instead of 3-4.

        It’s ok not to be thrilled about this. But 5 hours is doable. Is your schedule flexible? Would it be possible to work remotely occasionally?

        Here’s ultimately the way I see it: being miserable (occasionally) about not being able to see him when I want is essentially the “price of admission” for our relationship. (I think we’ve discussed this Dan Savage concept before?). Besides, I’d rather only see him 3-4 days a month than be with someone else that I could see all the time. And if you can see yourself sitting next to him in 50 years, this period of long distance is not really that long in the grand scheme of things.

        That said – yes, it will be hard, you’ll be unhappy and some days you’ll wonder why you’re doing this. If you want to be with him and you both want to make it work, it’s possible. My boyfriend and I talk on the phone pretty much every night, text occasionally and FaceTime even more occasionally and for us, it works. I miss him all the time but I think that’s also a good thing because I really want to be with him.

        Let us know how you’re doing and how this works out for you. Good luck!

      • Actually to me the good part would be the 4 years – knowing when it would end. And on the whole, a boyfriend with Dream Job would seem preferable to miserable unemployed bf. But to each her own difficulties :-). Don’t fret till you’re sure you need to in any case.

    • My friend, who was diagnosed with breast cancer during her pregnancy, had a healthy baby. The doctors gave her some bonding time and now she’s starting chemo again. Not a happy ending yet, but certainly a happy middle!

  36. Major first world conundrum here: I finally think I’m going to take the plunge and get my first more expensive bag. I’ve decided to get the Modula Pippa Grab and thought I had the color narrowed to Shark, but then I noticed the difference in handles. Since the Shark adheres to more of the original design, it has shorter handles and comes with a shoulder strap. It doesn’t look like the handles would easily slip over my shoulder, and I really prefer using the handles on my shoulder rather than use a strap. In fact, I don’t think I have any bag right now that has a strap rather than handles that can reach over my shoulder.

    So I’m left with the other colors that have the newer longer handles: tan, toffee, mid brown, taupe, nude croc, fig croc, fuchsia, and emerald. Of all those colors, I love the emerald, but I worry that that is not a neutral enough color for everyday (hence why I was edging to the shark in the first place). I definitely don’t like the tan, mid brown, nude croc, fig croc, or fuchsia. The taupe looks interesting online (almost with a metallic sheen, perhaps?), but I don’t think I’d like the color at all in person and can’t find any IRL pictures of it online. And that leaves the toffee. A year ago, I was lusting after toffee leather bags like no other and would have jumped on this in a heartbeat, but now I feel kinda ambivalent about it. But maybe it’s more classic and I’ll get much more use out of it in the long run? So I guess my question for you is: would you get the emerald or the toffee? Color I love right now or classic color for the long haul?

    Link to follow.

    • I’ve visited this site about 100 times tonight: http://www.modalu.com/shop.html

      • Ooh, go for the emerald! It’s a beautiful bag either way, but the toffee looks more generic, whereas the emerald really shines!

    • I have the Shark and it is awesome (a great neutral). But, I have my eye on the emerald right now, so I say go for Green! It is a great bag, very well constructed and classic. You’ll love it.

    • If it’s your first and only “big girl” bag, I would not go for the emerald. I can’t tell for sure, but it looks like the style with shorter handles has a cross-body strap. If it does, that might make the shark color a good option for you. Otherwise, I really like the toffee. I have a bag that color, and it is by far my favorite. Something about that shade looks really rich to me. I also like the taupe, and I think that’s neutral enough you could wear it with pretty much any outfit, including black outfits.

    • I don’t think either style of handle is really going to work on the shoudler. I’d go for your original choice and use the shoulder strap they show when you want it on your shoulder. I think you’ll find yourself carrying it in your hand with the short handles more than you think you will.

      I would not get a trendy color. I think the emerald is beautiful, but it’s a very Spring 2012 color and I think you’d regret it.

    • I have one and LOVE it. You can slip the handles over your shoulder if you need to, but definitely not if it is completely full. I have the toffee and I love it! That said, it’s a popular color so maybe go with the emerald because if you love it and can rock it then go with (and always get the toffee another date).

      Also, their customer service is AWESOME.

  37. Happy Dilemma- I just got a large amount of money from family/friends for a significant milestone in my life, think like mid five figures. I have no debt and am starting a job that will pay enough to cover my living expenses while still allowing me to save about 35% of my salary. I don’t want to touch the money until I have a major purchase years down the line, like the purchase of my first home. I’d love to allow it to grow a little bit and would be fine having it locked up for about 5 years. Does anyone have any advice about what to do with this or where to get this kind of advice? I don’t have a financial advisor or anything like that because this was a one-time thing and I’m not yet at the point in my life where I need to have relationships with personal financial advisors, attorneys, accountants, etc.

    • thesimpledollar is a blog that answers this question all the time.
      If you have a goal of buying a house with the money in 5 years, the stock market is potentially too volatile, so I would look at CDs or I-bonds for the percentage of money I wasn’t willing to risk.

  38. Shopping Help :

    Help….I want a silver necklace. Maybe 20-22″, and with some substance (not just a chain). I have some outfits that just need *something*. It doesn’t have to be expensive, just something fun. Any ideas on where I can look?

    • I'm Just Me :

      Ack, my post got eaten.

      Go to shopstyle dot com and put in long silver necklace, it will give you 1800 choices.

      Also, Etsy, kohls, endless and surprisingly, coldwatercreek have lots of choices.

    • Have you looked on Blue Nile? There is a Living Social right now ($100 for $200 or $50 for $100) for a little less than 24 hrs if you want to buy from them. I’ll post a link in a reply (I didn’t buy the Living Social, so it’s not my personalized link and I don’t get anything free if you buy through it).

    • If you’re looking to see a lot of styles and decide what you really like, I suggest going to ross-simons’s or QVC’s websites. They have tons of stuff and I think you can narrow it down by metal, pendant vs chain, length and so forth.

  39. Shopping Help :

    I posted a question last night, but it wasn’t on the weekend thread, so I’m going to try again (and try to be a little more clear with what I want) – where do you find accessories online? I’m looking for a long-ish silver necklace, and I can’t find anything other than chains. I’d like something a little more substantial. Thanks!

    • Are you looking for something that is just a single piece like a chain but heavier, or can it have multiple strands? I don’t know if that makes sense, so here’s some links:

      Single heavier strand: This one is pretty but online 17.5″: http://www.bluenile.com/sterling-silver-necklace-byzantine_3856
      Here’s one that is 18″: http://www.bluenile.com/sterling-silver-necklace-venetian_2958?track=si

      Multiple strands: http://www.bluenile.com/silver-bead-necklace_15118?track=rec

      Anyway, as you can tell from the links, I checked out blue nile first for online jewelry. And now I want that first byzantine necklace…:)

      • I have a comment in moderation with a bunch of Blue Nile links, but also check out etsy. I did a quick search and there is a whole bunch of options.

    • And now I see my prior post – apparently I just need to go through all of the comments! Sorry about that. Thanks, I’m Just Me and KGB! I have some good ideas now.

  40. To the gal looking for a striped blazer, this was on Wardrobe Oxygen – looks fab!


    • Also, I was just in Express and saw a striped blazer. I’m not sure if that one was previously mentioned.

  41. 16 Handles :

    A question for the lawyers on this site — that could possibly help me with a current dilemma. If you’d had the choice between a practice group at a midsize law firm in your area of interest v. an offer at a big law firm straight out of law school, what would you have done? (Let’s assume that the midsize hires very rarely, usually only laterally, and usually only people with significant transactional experience, but is making an exception. Pays below market, but still in 6 figures). Concerns include “missing out” on biglaw training/having it on the resume (though I’m not sure how much “training” there really is beyond throwing you into doc review), but also the flipside concern that I may want to apply for the midsize kind of job two years down the road and then not be able to find any positions. (I know people in this exact position who are actually trying to get jobs at this particular firm from biglaw). It seems like I have the option to “skip” two years of misery, especially since the smaller firm is a genuinely great place to be and many people opt to stay there. I have excellent relationships with the partners and other associates there, and know I would be given responsibility up front (especially since I’d be one of few junior associates in that group). But I’m not sure if I’m being naive about this.

    FYI — the offer at the bigger firm will likely be in the litigation group, and the practice group at the smaller firm is a transactional one limited to a specific industry. I hated corporate work at the big firm (M&A/capital markets) which is why I ended up doing mostly litigation, but I don’t mind it at the smaller firm because it’s localized to an industry I care about, and I like working on contracts/releases/deals in that context. I’m interested in potentially going in-house one day, and the transition actually seems easier out of the smaller firm/from a transactional background. I always saw myself as a litigator but am becoming increasingly disillusioned that I probably wouldn’t get to the oral advocacy stuff – the stuff that really draws me to it – until several years down the road, when I might be looking to leave a big firm anyway, and I might be better off channelling those skills into negotiating, talking to clients, etc. at a smaller place. (I don’t really enjoy law school, so while I am good at case research and legal writing, would not be devastated if that wasn’t part of my job). That’s if my summer experience was anything to go by – I did well and got good reviews because I worked hard, but spent much of the summer wondering if I could really sustain that lifestyle for more than a year or two, if that. People at the other firm work hard and are serious about their jobs, but certainly don’t seem to be pulling all nighters routinely or sleeping at the office, or even working regular weekends — that seemed to be the exception rather than the rule.

    All this being said, I’m somewhat ashamed to admit that I have some sort of mental stigma (probably born of the competitive law school atmosphere) about not taking the “best” option I have, but I’m trying to really think about what’s best strategy-wise for my career and my personality (I get very miserable when I don’t have time to pursue serious hobbies and outside interests, stay healthy and fit, and spend time with friends — sounds cliche but true).

    Any thoughts?

    • Seattleite :

      (I am not a lawyer.) From reading your post, it sounds like you really want to take the mid-law job, but feel like you *should* want the biglaw job. If I’m wrong, feel free to ignore the rest of this post.

      Assuming either job will allow you to pay your bills, take the job you want now, not the job you think Year 2022 16 Handles will wish you had taken. You don’t know who 2022 16 Handles is or what she will want. She will likely be very different that you believe. You do, however, know Year 2012 16 Handles very well. Put her first. Pick what she wants. Then trust that Years 2013 and Beyond 16 Handles will create something awesome from it.

    • Good lord, take the mid-size firm. BigLaw as nothing but a “prestige” move makes mental sense in law school when you’re used to reaching for the next step, and that next step is usually delineated by prestige. It makes very, very little sense in the outside world when all of a sudden you realize you’re out of steps and you need to look for what makes you happy. It’s clear from what you’ve written that the smaller firm will make you happier, at least as a first step. Will some of your fellow law students sneer at you? Maybe. If the firm is as you’ve described, however, nobody else will. You’ll be fine.

      As for training, it sounds like you’ve spent some time at this firm and know what kind of work you’ll be doing and who you’ll be working with. You have a good sense from that whether they’ll train you and it sounds like you will; trust your instincts.

    • Senior Attorney :

      Take the job you want!

      And you can absolutely deal with the whole law school competition thing if it comes up: “Oh, of course I had an offer from BigLaw, but I was offered the long-term job I want now so I figured I’d spare myself a few years of BigLaw misery and grab the brass ring now!”

    • Oh lord please take the mid-size firm job. You will not feel like you missed out on anything, I promise. I graduated in the top ten (people, not percent) of my first tier law school class w/ law review etc, and I work for a local government. I summered at a Big Law firm and it was miserable. I chose to focus on job satisfaction. And I like my job, most of the time. I like the people I work with, I like the courtroom experience I get, and I like that I typically work 40 hrs a week. I don’t make six figures, but all of the above are more important to me. I do not ever for one moment regret not pursuing the BigLaw opportunities I might have been able to get with my law school background.

      Trust me, in 5 years, you will care about your day-to-day professional and personal satisfaction, you will not care about the AmLaw ranking of your firm. Also, you didn’t mention student loan debt so I assume you don’t have any. If true, this is such a no brainer. It’s not even close. The best job is the one that is best for you. You need to learn to measure your success by your own internal criteria. Chasing prestige for its own sake is a path to misery.

      • “Trust me, in 5 years, you will care about your day-to-day professional and personal satisfaction, you will not care about the AmLaw ranking of your firm.”

        This x1,000. I’m 5 years out of law school and I went straight to a well respected midlaw firm (because I was not a candidate for BigLaw) doing litigation and still got burned out on the hours/expectations (which while much lower than BigLaw were still 2000+ despite it having been billed as a “lifestyle firm”). I got so tired of the “Well if you want to do the minimum and just wear 18 pieces of flair” crap. I have been desperately seeking local and state government positions, as well as in house positions, and have even applied for more entry-level transactional positions with other midlaw firms.

    • Midlaw. An opportunity to do exactly what you want to do and still make six figures? Why would you even consider anything else?

      Biglaw is overrated. They will treat you as fungible, give you grunt work, chew you up and spit you out. They won’t treat you as an individual, invest in your success, or have any qualms about laying you off. And you don’t really gain any useful skills in your first couple of years in litigation at a biglaw firm. Take the midlaw job.

      • In House Counsel :


        Having spent 3 yrs in BigLaw, I will say my skill set seemed slightly behind that of my peers who went to mid or small law where there was more responsibility from the start. And currently being in-house, having a transactional practice background opens up a lot more in-house positions than what is generally available for a litigator.

    • Former MidLevel :

      I would take the job in your area of interest. BigLaw can have good training (not just doc review), but not always. So I definitely wouldn’t give up a great job just for that reason.

    • It is really clear from your post that you want to take the midlaw job. Go for it, and don’t worry about what others think. It sounds like the training you will get at midlaw will far surpass the training you will get in biglaw.

  42. anon for this :

    Hi, all — regular poster going anon for this in case there are any revealing details.

    I worked with someone a few years ago that I strongly disliked for many reasons (and I wasn’t the only one). I don’t trust this person at all, based on business decisions that were made while we worked together. We only worked together for a few months before I left the company, but the negative impression remained. I haven’t seen or talked to this person since.

    Recently, I noticed via this person’s posts on social media that he/she had been laid off and was looking for work. Then the person contacted me to see if we could get together next week and talk about opportunities in the industry. I currently work at a company that I know this person would be interested in working for.

    How should I respond? I don’t want to burn any bridges, but I don’t want to go out of my way to help, either.

    • It sounds like a situation in which the best thing to do is to ignore the message, honestly. Any kind of explanation as to why you don’t want to meet, or–worse–a meeting in which you have to directly say “no, I will not put in a good word for you/pass on your resume/let you know of openings at my employer” will do more to burn a bridge than just not writing back. That way it’s at least plausible that you never received the note. I almost never believe in being evasive, but sometimes it is logical.

      I’d feel differently if you liked or respected this person, if they had kept in touch, or if you had some social reason for needing to be generous/empathetic, but none of these things is true. You say you don’t want to help, and you definitely don’t want to have your name attached to someone who may be unprofessional or backstabbing again in the future. I think if I were you I’d take a deep breath, delete the note, and just try not to feel guilty about it. This person blew it with you, apparently, so it’s time to protect yourself.

    • I would just reply and say you’re too busy to meet, but include a link to your company’s current positions and contact info for your company’s recruiter. Wish him/her the best of luck and be polite if s/he follows up with more questions.

      • Bluejay is nicer than me :D

        • K...in transition :

          I wouldn’t do this… it could be mistaken as an ok for the person to use your name as a reference or say that you encouraged him/her to reach out… which you don’t want.

          I’d either ignore the email all together and hope others respond and s/he goes off in another direction or respond that you don’t know of anything but wish him/her all the best and hope s/he sees it both as you not wanting to be a part of his/her search -and- that there isn’t anything open at your company haha

          • I don’t really see what’s wrong with him using her name in an email to the recruiter. If the recruiter asks her what she thinks, she can be honest and say she wouldn’t recommend him. Sending him information that’s publicly available anyway can’t hurt, and deliberately not replying to an email is unprofessional and liable to burn bridges.

          • They might not even ask her. He might just use her name

    • Ignore it. This person is trying to use you and you can’t be of any help to them given your past. Since you said trust is a big issue with this person, you don’t want to be associated with them in any way. Also, I couldn’t tell from your post, but if the social media is LinkedIn or FB are you “friends” with this individual?

    • hellskitchen :

      I have experienced this – a former colleague who I disliked extremely reached out to me about positions with my current company. I met him, shared what was mostly open knowledge about my company, and said that he should feel free to apply directly… it wouldn’t be of any use for me to share his resume because we have a centralized hiring system . I knew HR would call me if he applied because they’d see we have an employer in common and when they did, I was ready to share my concerns with them. Even though I had no intention of helping him, I decided to keep my emotions aside and meet precisely because I don’t want to burn bridges for future. I have no illusions that he would help me if roles were reversed in future but at the very least, I wouldn’t want him to paint me as malicious or anything because I refused to meet him. I made no promises about doing anything for him and didn’t share any confidential info and it took about 30 minutes out of my day so I didn’t go out of my way to help, but didn’t burn bridges either

      • I think the suggestion to actively share your company’s job listings only to then turn around and give a negative review is awful. Don’t you think that in sending this company information to the job hunter you’re implying that you would serve as a referral? Or at the very least, won’t actually disparage the candidate? This blows my mind. If this is public information, then he could find it on his own without correspondingly linking your name to the recruiting manager. You’re actually reducing his chances of finding employment, while purporting to “help.”

        • My comment was directed not as much at hells kitchen, since it sounds like the candidate couldn’t use you as a referral anyway and you can’t help it if HR calls you on the basis of a common previous employer. Rather it was to the person above who even acknowledged that sending the information over makes it likely that her name will be used as a referral by the candidate.

    • I haven’t been in your exact situation, but not too long ago, a former colleague who had left our offices under not the best of terms applied to come back. All the senior management had changed in the interim and I wasn’t sure how much they knew about this guy. So, yes, I went to senior management and blackballed him.

      It doesn’t sound very nice of me, and it wasn’t, but business isn’t always about being nice. And this guy wasn’t nice, either. He was a pathological liar and a narcissist, and not only did I not want to work with him again, I didn’t want the company again exposed to the kind of litigation that had resulted from his first stint with us.

      In your situation, I would ignore his contacts with you and have a word with HR in case he finds another route into applying with your company.

      • mamabear’s recommendation is at least consistent: no, I will not correspond with you, + no, I will not put in a good word for you and in fact may make a point to put in a bad word about you. I think it shows more professionalism and integrity than smoothing things over by seeming to offer some support, + intervening against his application in ways he can’t see or be sure of. (The applicant has turned into a guy over the course of this thread, but we don’t know–could be a woman.)

    • anon for this :

      Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate it. You brought up some points I hadn’t even considered. I think laying low is probably the best thing to do in this case, but I’m going to keep thinking about it.

  43. Can someone explain summer scarves to me? I have been trying to accessorize more this summer, both at work and off duty, but it has been so hot that even when a scarf is summer weight and colors I feel like it looks too heavy and bulky and seasonally inappropriate. Does the concept just not translate to Southern California summers or am I doing it wrong? The one I like the most is white, lavender, and mint green but it just feels wrong.

    • Senior Attorney :

      I’m in So Cal and I wear scarves in the summer — although not this past week in triple-digit temps. Drape it loosely (even just once around the neck with no loop like Nicole Richie here: http://www.womenscareerchannel.com/fashion-and-design-blog/mallory-korol/the-summer-scarf.678.html) and have the courage of your fashion convictions and you will look great!

    • They definitely don’t work in really hot climates. Whenever I wear one in DC, it just gets drenched with sweat and destroyed. But in a cooler climate, it’s a nice look and keeps the sun’s rays from directly hitting your neck and chest.

    • I live in a climate that has cool summers (San Francisco) so I wear them here a lot. When I travel to hotter climates, and lately I do this a lot, I bring them along anyway. When I’m in the hotter climate, I can’t imagine wearing them outside. But there have been plenty of over-air-conditioned buildings where I’ve been glad I had one in my bag or tied to my bag. I’ve also used them in the evenings when it cools off.

    • Summer scarves are great. For those A/C attacks, whether at work or at some restaurant or something. For late evenings when it’s still too hot to wear a jacket but a breeze comes up. You’re just not meant to wear them all day long :-).

  44. ok, i know we are under a strict No Olympic Spoilers Blackout, and I respect that. But, London peeps, where is all the “London Olympics Disrupting Life and Being Obnoxious” Gossip?!?! I want Gossip, and being annoyed by tourists and athletes and media being a pain vicariously! Cough it up, chicas!

    • The rumors from up here is that disruption is pretty minimal. The papers had a field dayw with all the empty seats in the first few days but apparently things are running pretty smoothly. I think Team GBs success has taken the edge off criticism as well.

      In my city, the current drama is that the military jets are flying too low and creating terrorism scares. I rolled my eyes but have to admit, I nearly fell off my bed the first night they came swooping through.

    • Elle-Comma-Woods says people have pretty much decamped so she says its been pretty easy breezy, especially since most of the venues are away from the work areas. She seems to be enjoying it actually (sorry to speak for her…)

      • Senior Attorney :

        I was in L.A. for the 1984 Olympics (yes, I am very very old) and everybody was all worried about it and, as TCFKAG says, everybody left town. Turned out to be less traffic and fewer people than normal! Plus one couldn’t help but get caught up in the excitement. Perhaps that’s what’s going on in London as well!

        • scientist :

          That was my experience (went for week 1 to visit SO’s family and see some events). His family and friends said that many people were given flex schedules and telecommuting options. I didn’t have any issues dealing with public transport while we were there.

          Well, that’s not strictly true. We did get backed up going to the Millennium Stadium and leaving Wembly, but it was really not a madhouse in any way.

          • aw, damn, I wanted more drama! silly London proving everyone (read Mitt Romney) wrong and being all prepared, humph … (hee)

    • We may be on an Olympic news blackout, but we are not on a Duchess of Cambridge fashion blackout! I have loved seeing her outfits during the Olympics (as always). She always looks elegant and appropriate. I wonder if it’s possible to distill a set of “Catherine Rules” to keep in mind. I would start with:

      * when in doubt, favor solids over patterns (and smaller patterns over larger patterns)

      * show no décolletage

      * no sleeveless tops

      * neutral makeup

      What others do you all notice?

      • Elle Urker :

        She’s married to a future head of state. As a Brit who actually admires the Royal Family as part of our history and culture, not just because I like their clothes, I beg of you – live a little. I bet she wishes she could. Seriously. It’s a bit sad to watch Americans wet themselves over someone displaying a little elegance.

  45. marriedwithoutchildren :

    I am in love with this blog and the community here but I am so not a style maven/shopper. I have to schedule time to shop and it’s like going to a doctor’s appointment. DH is out today so I scheduled shopping today, and guess what, never made it. It’s summertime so I’d rather sit around in a sun dress, no make-up, no jewelry, and enjoy the outdoors/putz around the house/listen to music/catch up with girlfriends over the phone. It doesn’t help that we are on a budget due to saving up for a house.

    Anyway, will probably just start online shopping out of laziness, having sworn off it in the past. Just wanted to vent!

    • I used to be you. (I still am, to a degree). I’d go shopping and leave with nothing because (a) I hate spending money and (b) I hate being in the mall and at the store and I get tired easily. But then I learned to on-line shop quickly and efficiently and now I actually (sort of) enjoy it…though more for other people!

      If you need something specific, swing by my tumblr and ask a question. (BTW, the more specific info you can give me, the more I can help!

    • Merabella :

      I LOVE online shopping. I even bought my wedding dress online without ever trying one on in a shop. I hate going to malls, partly I think because I worked in retail for so long. Give online shopping a try. I suggest starting out at places that have free shipping both ways and a little trial and error.

  46. New poster :

    Does anyone have experience hand-washing Equipment silk blouses? I just had what I would like to be my last run-in with a dry cleaner who ruined yet another of my silk blouses and I am ready to switch to just washing them myself. I’ve done a few of them before with good results, but I haven’t tried the Equipment ones yet. They are a little bit thicker silk and pretty expensive, so just wanted to get some feedback before jumping in.

    Also, any tips for removing stains from silk blouses? Part of my dry cleaner problem is that I always have some kind of food stain on everything I bring in, and sometimes they miss it and then the stain gets locked in by pressing. Thanks for any advice.

    • This: http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Wand-Stain-Remover-Stick/dp/B0002ILY96/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344896675&sr=8-1 it’s never failed me, works on all fabrics including silk without discoloration. And I’m a major food-down-the-blouse klutz.

  47. K...in transition :

    The neighborhood kids (5 of them, ranging from ages 8-12ish) have met and fallen in love with my new puppy. When we happen to be outside at the same time, this is awesome for all. However, the kids have now begun to come knock on my door when they want to play with him, knocking every 10ish mins. 3-4 times in a row, 2-3 times each day. I think these kids are at their dad’s for weekends or something as I only see them sometimes… They just came by for knocking round 4 and I came to the door, said I was working right now and couldn’t bring him out, and they looked broken. It was all I could do to tell them to have a nice day and close the door… I hate it! How do I explain to them without hurting their feelings that, while they’re welcome to play when they see us outside, I don’t want them knocking on my door and interrupting my day, let alone doing so repeatedly? For the past few days, I’ve kept my living room curtains drawn and avoided the kitchen (where the curtains are sheer) because they seem to think that my being home = an open invitation to knock.

    • Stop answering the door. They’ll get the point eventually.

    • Mighty Mouse :

      I think a simple, fun sign could do the trick. I’m imagining one with two sides —“Puppy can play” and “Puppy can’t play.” Bonus points for picture of a happy, awake puppy and a snoozing one.

      Having them knock on the door is like a slot machine. Hope springs eternal that *this* will be the lucky time that he / she will be available! Be consistent.

      (Hokey, yes, but as a former grade school teacher, I’m down with hokey if it solves problems. Good luck!)

      • Blonde Lawyer :

        Love this! I also had neighborhood kids that would come over to visit my dog but only after dinner and only while accompanying their mom on a walk so it wasn’t disruptive.

      • This has become pretty popular in some neighborhoods near me. A lot of houses have signs hanging on the doorknobs with a red side and a green side. Red means the kids can’t play, green means they can. Most kids like rules and will abide by them if you explain it.

    • You tell them exactly what you said in your post. “Bella and Brayden, you are welcome to play with the puppy when you see us outside, but please do not knock on my door and interrupt me again.” If you normally walk the dog at a particular time, you could suggest to the kids that they come outside at that time to see the puppy.

    • Agree with the just-prior poster. One thing you learn as a parent is that children are accustomed to being told what and what not to do. They like rules (even if they don’t always like obeying them.)

      So you don’t have to pussyfoot around about their feelings. I would be horrified to learn my kids were bugging a neighbor, as would most parents. So I agree with a prior poster – “Hey kids. Here are the rules about my puppy. When you see us outside, you can ask if you can play with the puppy. But if you don’t see the puppy, don’t knock on my door. I do my work at my house and I can’t answer the door all the time.”

      You may have to remind them of the rules a couple of times, and then if that doesn’t work, you’ll need to find their parents – and actually, just asking who their parents are might do the trick.

    • I’m in moderation for using the p-word

      Agree with the just-prior poster. One thing you learn as a parent is that children are accustomed to being told what and what not to do. They like rules (even if they don’t always like obeying them.)

      So you don’t have to TIPTOE around about their feelings. I would be horrified to learn my kids were bugging a neighbor, as would most parents. So I agree with a prior poster – “Hey kids. Here are the rules about my puppy. When you see us outside, you can ask if you can play with the puppy. But if you don’t see the puppy, don’t knock on my door. I do my work at my house and I can’t answer the door all the time.”

      You may have to remind them of the rules a couple of times, and then if that doesn’t work, you’ll need to find their parents – and actually, just asking who their parents are might do the trick.

      • What wise, wise mambear said. My mom would have been mortified to know that find out I was bothering one of our neighbors like that. At the age, they’re old enough that your reasons can be (simply) explained to them and they should understand as long as you lay out clear rules.
        “Hey kids, it’s great that you like to play with puppy and puppy really loves it but here’s the thing – I’m a writer and I work from my house. So eventhough I’m at home, I’m probably working. But I typically walk puppy at (insert times when you typically go out for walks), so if you see us then you are totally welcome to come play with puppy.”
        If they continue to come knocking at your door, remind them of what you said and when you’ll be walking. If all else fails, find out who their parents are and talk to them.

  48. I remain perplexed by peplum, just received an email from Hobbs with a £99 leather peplum piece that you attach to your clothes. So confused.

  49. Help wanted :

    I am involved in a workplace flirtation game for lack of better terminology for the purpose of boosting my ego after the breakup of a long term marriage. The other party is in the same situation. We have gone out for drinks a couple of times. He sends me very mixed signals by doing stuff like asking me out and then telling me about the other women he is dating. I want to play back. Does anyone have any really good ideas. I have a few up my sleeve.

    • Yes! Here is an idea- don’t do this.

    • Here’s a good idea – date someone else. Don’t date this jerk. I can’t imagine how having him manipulate you like this could possibly boost your ego.

      Workplace flirtations/affairs/romances are almost always disastrous anyway.

      Write an online profile for yourself and get out there. That will do far, far more for your ego than listening to this DOOSH tell you about all the other women he’s dating while he’s dating you.

      • Almost always disastrous for the woman in any case.
        Especially if the guy is a jerk like this one..

    • Anne Shirley :

      YES so many ideas. Stop wearing panties to work. Tell him about this. Accidentally get caught banging someone else in the conference room. Start sending each other “sexy” emails at work. Accidentally forward to the whole office. Get really drunk, need a ride home, and spend your time bawling on his couch because. life. is. just. so. hard. Invite your intern to join your for a threesome.

      Ladies, fingers crossed one of us works with Help wanted and we get to see how these ideas play out.

  50. I’m 47 about to be 48. I want to get myself a pair of really cool jeans that I can wear for casual Fridays or date night. I have an excellent figure for my age. I am 5’5″ with a long torso, slender hips, and only a 29″ natural inseam. I am fairly out of touch with the jeans world, and I know you can get jeans everywhere. I wear a size 2 or 4, or a 27. Any recommendations?

    • I would reccomend going into a store with a wide selection and have a general idea of wash and cut (skinny, boot cut, straight, etc). Tell the salesperson what you’re looking for and have them bring you different brands. Bring shoes you would likely wear, and maybe a top that you would likely wear. Try them all on and narrow it down. Prepare to spend between $150 and $200.

    • I love Joe’s jeans, but I second everything Supra said – bring your shoes with you and try on lots of pairs (even in some styles that you don’t like on the hanger). I also think Gap still makes so fantastic jeans, so you may want to try their long and lean style (even better if your perfect jeans cost $60 instead of $160, right?).

  51. Diana Barry :

    Will post this again tomorrow if no replies – does anyone have a Boden code for more than 10% off? I want to order several things for fall but my code from the catalog is only 10%.


    • I'm Just Me :

      W32N might give 15% according to some of the Boden bloggers. Not sure if it has free ship/free return with it.

    • SoCal Gator :

      I love the Boden fall catalog. Ordered and received some really cute items. Lots of polka dots!

  52. I saw a woman wearing a terrific pair of flats in SF last week and should have asked her who makes them. Does anyone have an idea:

    No toe cleavage
    Rounded square toe box
    Bow ties over toe made of cord with brass/gold metal aglets at ends
    Rubber running shoe type sole that continues up the back of the heel about an inch

    They looked elegant and very walkable.


    • It sounds like they might be Tod’s: http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/tods-bow-trim-flat/3342142?cm_cat=datafeed&cm_ite=tod%27s_bow_trim_flat:362279_2&cm_pla=shoes:women:flats&cm_ven=Google_Product_Ads&mr:ad=20584803593&mr:adType=pla&mr:keyword={keyword}&mr:referralID=NA&mr:trackingCode=90DFB34D-5EFB-E011-8116-001517B1882A&origin=pla

    • Or these Donald Pliner?: http://www.lastcall.com/p/Donald-J-Pliner-Dance19-Ballerina-Flat-Black-Patent-Shoes/prod12190025/?ecid=LCALRFeedJ84DHJLQkR4&ncx=n&uEm=%%affiliates%%&ci_src=14110925&ci_sku=prod12190025skuBLACK

      • May well be the Tod’s (definitely not the Pliners). Thanks! Wow. That’s a lot of money for non-office shoes.

    • associate :

      They sound like elie tahari to me.

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