Corporette.com

Updated: Dec 31, 2020 165 Comments · by

Weekend Open Thread

Weekend Open Thread |

This post may contain affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

Something on your mind? Chat about it here.

Three cheers for the weekend! I don't know about you, but I am dreaming of the day when I can wear a gorgeous dress like this to dinner out and about with friends — it looks like the perfect dress to celebrate milestones like anniversaries or graduate degrees, and would work for most weddings or holiday parties as well.

Love the asymmetrical details on this Cushnie dress, like the off-centered straps and the “arm swag,” which is a new term to me. The dress is 40% off — it was $1,595 but is now marked to $957, at Nordstrom. 

By the way, if you haven't done a perusal lately, there are a TON of deep discounts at Nordstrom — I picked up several AGL shoes for almost 60% off (honestly, I've never seen them priced that low), and there are a ton of great deals on casual brands like Madewell, Boden, J.Crew, Lilly Pulitzer, All Saints, Børn, and Eileen Fisher (whoa, including everyone's favorite comfy pants).

On the business side of things, there are crazy deals on Hugo Boss, Theory, and Max Mara. (OOH, fine, yes, and there are great sales on reader-favorite lingerie brands like Natori, Wacoal, Hanky Panky, and Commando.)

This post contains affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. For more details see here. Thank you so much for your support!

Sales of note for 9.30.24

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

About Kat

Kat Griffin is the founder, publisher, and editor-in-chief of Corporette. You can read more about her here.

Comments

    • anon

      Ha- And I love the architectural style to it! These different opinions are what make fashion fun!

      • Anon

        I am never going to knock the rare formal dress that comes in navy rather than black.

        • Ellen

          Kat, I love this dress! It is a bit unusual, but that is why it stands out and that is why it is at Nordstrom’s. I am going to get it b/c I think that once the virus is over, I can really look stunning wearing this blue with my blond hair and blue eyes. At least that what the manageing partner keeps telling me, so I am a beleiver! For the time being, it will have to stay in my closet, b/c I really cannot go anywhere now wearing this, and will only be able to go out with these with 4″ heels, and that means UBER only, b/c the cabs would not be comfortable for me at this time.
          Kat, will you be sponsoring any new posts relating to the B.L.M. movement? I was thinking of getting a face mask with the B.L.M. logo on it, but I do not want to appear to be to political. I also was thinking of getting a Black face mask with the American Flag on it; that way, I could go either way on the issues w/o offending anyone. What does the HIVE think of that idea?

  2. Jessica Mulroney

    I stumbled upon her Twitter war with an influencer and OMG. Is this how powerful people are: sweet in public and a nightmare in private? Ill-advised by good PR people? Believing in their rightness a bit too much? I am amazed by people’s ability to be their own circular firing squad.

    • Anon

      It’s so wild. My understanding is that the thing Sasha posted that started the whole thing was just a generic call to action about BLM, it wasn’t any kind of call out of Jessica or specific comment about her. I have no idea why Jessica reacted the way she did.

    • Anon

      I tried to follow this but even watching Sasha’s story I couldn’t figure out what actually happened. Sasha posted a generic call to action and then what? Did she contact Jessica directly or JM just replied to her? What was said? It all was so vague that I couldn’t understand what the horrible thing JM did was. Clue me in!

    • Senior Attorney

      I saw something on Twitter the other day that said something like “Remember how when Me Too happened a lot of men we loved turned out to be horrible? Now that Black Lives Matter is happening, a lot of white people we loved are going to turn out to be horrible, too.”

      • Senior Attorney

        Not, I hasten to add, that I loved Jessica Mulroney or even really knew who she was other than Meghan Markle’s friend. My point is that yeah, a lot of powerful people are indeed a nightmare in private.

    • Anonymous

      Lordy, that woman has a heavy hand with the contouring makeup. I didn’t think that that was how Canadians rolled. But it looks like she’s a mean girl who finally got caught in the act. Sort of like Lea Michelle.

  3. Anonymous

    I thought I posted this on the morning thread but don’t see it now. For those that have put in a patio- how has it been priced?

    We had a contractor give us a high level “bluestone patios will generally run $X-Y per sq ft”. We got the bid back from this contractor and it was $Y x 800sq ft. However, when we measured the actual part of the patio that is stone, it’s 600 sq ft. The way it is drawn there is 2-3 feet of mulched area around the patio and along the path leading to it. It looks like the contractor is charging $Y per TOTAL square foot of the entire patio area, not just the parts that have stonework. FWIW this contractor isn’t doing the landscaping. It’s also not rounded, which I would understand perhaps you have to buy a large 2×2 piece of stone to get a round piece. It’s more like a rectangle with a little rectangular “tail.”

    Is this typical? I’ve been sort of annoying for some of the project so if this is totally reasonable I’ll let it go. It does have a low 4-figure impact on the cost.

      • Anonymous

        Yes, that is in my smaller number. It’s like 550sq ft plus the 50 sq ft walkway. His number is the whole “envelope” of the patio, including the 2-3′ mulch beds for some reason (which again, they are not installing).

    • Go for it

      Never had that type of work done; however, it is my policy to get 3 quotes to determine if the $ is in alignment . Ymmv

      • Anonymous

        We did get a few bids the first time around- and they are all dollar per sq ft installed. So yeah, I can and probably will go back and ask them to rebid the full project since we have measurements, but it’s a pain and we like this guy. I’m going to ask him directly but wanted to know if I was being reasonable or not first.

        • Anon

          Is he pouring concrete under the beds? Otherwise I doubt he should be charging for them!

    • Anonymous

      I would expect the charge to be based on the square footage of the stone. If he were doing the landscaping and mulching, I would expect a separate charge for that.

    • Anonymous

      Just ask him to clarify, and break it down by solid patio versus for the trail. I’m no expert but when we had our patio put in last year, the contractor gave us three estimates separately for: 1) the 200 sq ft stone patio space, 2) separate trail with rounded stepping stones, and 3) small step area in the front. That way we could opt in/out of anything. We opted into 1) and 2). If it helps our stone patio was ~$4k for the 200 sq ft paver patio (different sized stones in a pattern) + a small ~20 stepping stone path in a MCOL city

      • Anon

        +1 I don’t know why the first step wouldn’t be to clarify with the contractor.

    • Anon

      Not typical, I’d ask him to quote based on the measurement of the actual patio. It’s probably a mistake. Sometimes contractor math is a little iffy, I had to have our counter people recalculate the area because they overestimated. Bluestone is expensive so it really makes a difference! I also have that type of patio.

    • Anonymous

      I think it’s common to add 10% extra material to account for pieces that have to be cut. It’s also possible that the bluestone is sold in set volumes, like a pallet with 200 square feet. Another possibility is that he measured wrong.

      • AnonATL

        +1. It’s definitely possible that extra square footage is to account for waste. I would still ask a few follow up questions and mention that you measured the space at a different size.

  4. Anon

    I’m looking for a small bedside lamp, ideally in a blush color, that has a cylinder or otherwise low-profile shape (I don’t like bulbous lamps that just get in the way). This has been surprisingly hard to find for under $100 – I’ve checked some of the usual suspects already, but I’m so used to buying the cheapest possible lamp at IKEA that I haven’t yet figured out how to actually source designs I like! Anyone have any ideas for where I might find this lamp?

  5. Anonymous

    PSA: Askamanager has new guidelines for her open threads, and it’s a much better/more positive place suddenly. Basically, less angry ranting or making personal announcements and more discussions. It got weird lol but may be back on track.

    • AFT

      I really appreciated the steering back to the intent of the open thread. It had turned into a lot of ongoing personal rants/updates from repeat commenters that didn’t have much value to casual readers.

  6. Anonymous

    Has anyone here lost 50+ lbs successfully? Best tips? I really, really, really need to get this under control before menopause hits.

    • Senior Attorney

      Yes, and I did it by having a weight loss surgery called a vertical sleeve gastrectomy. It’s been ten years and it was the best decision I ever made, and I’m still maintaining 90% of the loss. It’s not easy but at least the surgery leveled the playing field. Email me at seniorattorney1 at gmail if you want to discuss.

    • Anone

      I’m down 50 for over a year, and want to lose another 15. I’ve been maintaining, not losing, during quarantine because my workload has skyrocketed.

      My motivation was severe reflux and gallstones. Too much fat, sugar, or spice causes me severe stomach pains. It’s probably easier for me than the average dieter, because I have this immediate feedback loop.

      I quit fried and greasy food cold-turkey, no problem with that. The first time I quit added sugar, I tried to do it cold-turkey, and lost my GD mind. I’d forget what I was saying in mid-sentence, or go to the basement to retrieve laundry and forget why I was there. Sugar is absolutely an addiction that affects your brain chemistry.

      The second time I quit added sugar, I did it incredibly slowly. It took me about 3-4 months of slowly decreasing sugar in my coffee until I got to zero. I gradually watered down my Cokes until I got to about half-and-half, then switched to fruit-flavored seltzers. I also cut out milk and ice cream, but I still eat hard cheeses. (Quitting sugar and dairy has also cleared up 90% of my acne problems.)

      I’ve only just started incorporating exercise within the past month or so, doing beginner’s yoga online. I wanted to be sure that I could sustain my eating habits and portion control before I changed my caloric needs with hard cardio.

      My best tip is to make changes at a snail’s pace. It makes sense to be Type A motivated and want to jump in with both feet and see immediate progress, but the weight didn’t come on overnight, and it’s not going to leave that way, either. Set one solid habit in stone before adding another.

      • Anonymous

        Thanks so much for the tips. I have been making incremental changes, trying not to flip my body into the mode where it thinks we are starving and need to store more fat for the famine. It’s encouraging to know the gentle approach will work given enough time.

    • Anonymous

      I did, by joining overeaters anonymous. I lost about 90 pounds 13 years ago and have kept off 70+ I think? I’m no longer active in the program but it was helpful to me.

    • Anonymous

      I don’t know if I fall into the “successfully” camp, because I am just hitting that mark, so can’t say I have maintained it. It has taken a year. I started by eating less and eating more healthfully. I have a hard stop at 80% full, eat few simple carbs and virtually no sugary foods. I started exercising on my own — just walking or walking and running at intervals. After about 20 lbs, I went to the gym and began resistance training. With that I added more protein to my diet. I am now not very food-driven and end up fasting sometimes, even without trying. I am going to have to level up now to make more progress (and there is still more weight to lose for sure!). I also quit drinking wine except in rare instances, but have continued drinking fruit juice and liquor beverages at volume, so I think tackling that comes next.

    • NOLA

      Yes, I lost 85 lbs in about a year and a half. I tracked calories with Myfitnesspal and worked out a lot. I still do. One thing I found, because I exercise so much, is that I had to eat pretty clean (mostly lean protein, vegetables and fruit) to eat enough calories. The other thing was that I needed small indulgences like chocolate and wine so I didn’t feel completely deprived. I also had a couple friends who were doing similar things at that time, so we were cheerleaders for each other. Right now, without the gym, I’m biking 18 miles a day and eating less, but still having trouble with creep.

    • Austinite

      50 lbs is probably not enough weight to do what I did because it is drastic, but I had a Duodenal Switch with a BilioPancreatic Diversion weight loss surgery. I lost 190 lbs. in 18 months. This surgery is extreme but has the lowest recidivism rate. I plateau’d for six months, and now I’m trying Noom. Lost 4 lbs in first 2 weeks so far. I also attend a form of OA meetings online. My effort is mental + physical + spiritual and has been lifelong.

    • Sunshine

      I’m down 35lbs in 9 months with a combination of diet and exercise. Rather than choosing a diet program that is limiting, I chose to count calories on Noom and then MyFitnessPal and while that helped, it also led to a plateau about 3 months ago. I’ve switched over to a program called Macrostax, where I’m eating much more and still seeing great results.
      Noom was okay but I really didn’t learn anything I didn’t already know, and it got repetitive and gimmicky after a while. Their food logging interface is also annoying. MFP is easy to log but still advocated a low-cal diet and I plateaued eventually. Macrostax gives me numbers to hit every day on carbs/protein/fat. It’s higher protein than I’m used to but it is nowhere near a Keto-like program. I found that I was really under-eating protein.
      On the exercise side, I can’t say enough good things about strength training. If you add muscle, you’ll burn more calories at rest. I do a combination of strength training and cardio/HIIT and in total exercise about 7-10 hours a week; that has been much easier while working at home with no commute time.
      What worked best for me was to lose some weight first before focusing on the exercise. Then I added in small bits of exercise and slowly increased over time.

  7. Anon for this

    I’M GOING ON VACATION! I have never been so excited about a trip before.

    We are renting an RV to visit friends about 1,000 miles away. Our kids will play together. We will swim in their pool. We will not do anything else or interact with other people because of COVID-19 (only eating home cooked meals or takeout), but I don’t care. It’s so nice having something to look forward to.

    If you’re interested in renting an RV, do it sooner rather than later. There were very few dates left.

    • Anon

      Nice! My family is heading up to Northern Michigan in a couple weeks. We will only do outdoor activities and get takeout food, but I’m hoping at least it will be a fun break for us. I would totally be down for RVing across the country but my husband isn’t into it.

    • LawDawg

      Wisconsin campgrounds opened up this week and I am headed to Door County in July. We have been going for about 10 years and most of our activities should be okay. Yay for the drive-in. Sad that we won’t eat at Al Johnson’s.

      • Patricia Gardiner

        Oh my family loves Al Johnson’s! Great tradition, and the goats on the roof are so cool!

  8. anon

    Anyone have advice on how to alleviate a flare-up of TMJ disorder? Once a month, hormones make my face, ears, and head hurt so much I miss work. It will be awhile before I can see the next specialist I should, so in the meantime how can I make it stoo hurting so bad?

    • S in Chicago

      My specialist recommended hot water bottles and it helped a ton. Best thing was seeing a PT who would massage the top of my head and face–I know that sounds weird. I was skeptical when she started on the top of my head (like literally where you wear a hat) talking about hippy dippy stuff like body meridians or some such, but it made a ton of difference after a few sessions.

    • Anonymous

      Have you considered botox? I used to get Botox in my masseter muscle for TMJ and it felt incredible, highly recommend (expensive though).

  9. Anonymous

    What would you do if the investment options in your 401K plan were really underperforming? Looking at my husband’s 401K and the 5 year yield percentages for the precious few options range from 2.26%-10.82% (the one year is more like 3%-18%).

  10. paging baby budget poster

    To the baby budget poster from the morning thread: You absolutely cannot work from home and care for a baby at the same time. After the pandemic is over, your employer probably won’t even allow it. During the pandemic, lack of child care has been a huge problem for working parents, and is forcing some parents (mostly moms) out of the work force. Hop on over to the moms page if you want to learn all about the challenges of WFH with a child in the house.

    • Anon

      I agree it’s not something to plan on before you know your baby, but I disagree with the assertion that it “absolutely” can’t work. It’s possible in certain circumstances (mainly if you get a baby that sleeps really well and you have a very flexible job). My husband was our daughter’s caregiver from 3 months to 11 months while working himself. It got challenging at the end when she was crawling, but worked very well until she was about 9 months old. An infant should typically be napping for 3-4 hours of the standard 8 hour workday and when she was awake he was either wearing her or (before she was mobile) working next to her activity mat. He was also willing and able to work evenings and weekends as necessary, so if she was fussy and he only got in a few hours of work on a particular weekday it wasn’t a big deal.

      • Coach Laura

        Unless you get a newborn like mine who never, ever took a morning nap and didn’t nap in the afternoon unless she was in a car. She did sleep 8-9 hours
        straight at night from when she was 4 weeks old, so there’s that. Unfortunately no way to know ahead of time which kid you get.

      • Anon

        Mine had a wake window of ~2 hours. Then at nap time they would sleep in their bassinets for 40 minutes. Wake up , change, feed, tummy time, oh look it is somehow almost nap time again. When they finally go down you pee, get food, oh look 20 uninterrupted minutes to work. I guess you can stick baby in a bouncer while they’re awake but then you have to constant monitor for positional asphyxiation and you’d still only get a short burst of time. There was someone on one of the baby groups I’m in who would work with the baby, but she’d have to leave baby in a room screaming alone and then go take her teleconferences outside looking through the window at baby while she screamed. Didn’t sound great at all for mom or baby.

      • Anon

        I think the working for himself is key here. I think most employers would simply not allow this, and it would be kind of hard to hide for any length of time.

        • Anon

          He’s not self-employed but his employer and job are more flexible than many. I know there are employers who don’t allow this, and of course if your employer prohibits it, you shouldn’t do it.

          • Anon

            Ah, reading comprehension fail on my part. I read “working himself” as working for himself.

      • Hildy

        This sounds like a fairly unicorn job and unicorn baby where the stars all aligned. And even in this situation it was only for a total of 8 months where it worked. Which is amazing for this poster but I would certainly not tout this as an example of how it can work to work from home with a baby without childcare.

        We all know someone who annoyingly can eat nothing but garbage and stay skinny but no one would say “hey some people can eat French fries and candy every day and be thin” if someone was suggesting to a poster looking to lose weight cut out processed foods.

        I think everyone’s point is that sure it may be possible to do this but it’s exceedingly rare and you shouldn’t plan on it working. If it does, great! Use the money you had budgeted for childcare to start a college fund or take a fabulous vacation or throw a fabulous first birthday for the baby! If it doesn’t, you’ll be happy you’d budgeted a second mortgage payment and avoid the panic inducing sticker shock so many of us experienced!

        • Anon

          The person who kicked the whole conversation off said she was planning on doing it for the baby’s first year, not indefinitely, so a very similar time frame to what we did. But yes, I fully agree you have to get lucky with both the baby and the job situation, and you should certainly not budget with the expectation you’ll have zero childcare costs for the first year. I was actually one of multiple people on the original thread cautioning OP that being able to work from home while taking care of an infant is not guaranteed. But I take issue with the characterization that it “absolutely cannot work.” It did for us, as well as some people I know in real life and I’ve seen at least a couple people mention on the moms page that they did something similar too. I don’t think your french fries analogy is a good one. Although some people manage to eat junk and stay skinny, eating french fries is clearly counter-productive if the stated goal is losing weight. But here the goal would appear to be saving money and/or spending more time with her baby, and working from home while taking care of the baby is not counter-productive to those goals – rather, it furthers them. Just because it may not work out is not a reason not to attempt it, at least in my view. You just have to have a solid backup plan.

  11. Pump recommendations

    Cross-posted from Mom’s site:

    What pump did you use? Did you love it, hate it, neutral?

    First baby is due in October. I plan to nurse whenever possible but also want baby to be comfortable taking bottles from dad, nanny, etc. In case it’s relevant, I work from home full-time, so concerns about pump being noisy or taking up a ton of space are probably slightly less relevant than they would be if I was in an office.

    Related – if you also WFH full-time and have a nanny or au-pair, what did you do when baby was hungry during work hours? Bottle or nurse if you weren’t otherwise occupied (on a call etc)?

    • Anon

      Everyone on the moms page loves the Spectra. I had a Medela PISA and it was fine. With my insurance, the Spectra would have been $200 and the Medela was free, and given how little I ended up pumping/caring about pumping I’m very very glad I didn’t spend the $200 for it. I never pumped while I was on mat leave. Once I was back at work I pumped once/day for a little while but got tired of it and decided to just have her caregiver give her formula bottles while I was at work (I kept nursing in the evenings and weekends for over a year after I quit pumping). On the other hand, I know people who pumped 10 times per day from birth and ended up pumping consistently for well over a year, and I imagine they cared a lot more about the quality of their pump.

    • anon

      I’m neutral on the pump itself, but cups that fit in my bra rather than traditional getting undressed and attaching horns were an absolute must for me. I hated the horns—they made it harder to type/handle documents and made me feel more like a cow.

      I used Freemies, but there are more options now.

    • AIMS

      Spectra was great! I had the medela PIS with the firstborn and it was fine but noisier. If both options are available, get the spectra. For the cup /horns issue you need to get a hands free bra. It’s hideous and looks insane and the first time I ever saw I though “as if!” But it’s an essential if you want to pump even somewhat regularly.

      For second question, I think it’s a personal preference. I would have opted to nurse over pumping but I liked nursing. I know women who pumped exclusively and nursing just never stuck for them and others who found nursing more efficient during work hours regardless of whether they could theoretically nurse their baby.

  12. Vicky Austin

    What’s something you’re proud of that you never get to brag about? Big deals, silly little things, and everything in between – tell me all about it.

    • Anon

      Professional writing is very, very easy for me. I’ve always “known” how to write clear, effective, and grammatical sentences – I was clearly born with some kind of natural intelligence in this realm (the same way my brother seems to just “get” math). Back in high school, I got an 800 on my writing SAT with zero studying and I can’t relate at all when people say things like “I can never remember which form of ‘their’ to use” and things like that. I work with a lot of highly intelligent people who are way better at certain tasks, but I’ve never worked with anyone who can match me on the writing side.

    • anonshmanon

      I know how to insert the USB drive on the first try! Unfortunately, with the new symmetric USBs, that talent won’t be valuable very much longer!

    • Sloan Sabbith

      I’m a really fast reader, and comprehend what I read very well. It’s made law school, test taking, and reading for fun all so much easier, and it means I can read 12-15 books a month- a “bad” month of reading is 10 books. I’ve read more than 120 books a year the last 3 years and in 2018 I read 202 books.

      • Anonymous

        Hi from a fellow fast reader! I didn’t realize until much later in life how much this gave me a leg up in school.

    • Anon

      I’m a good friend and a good boss. Most of my former employees say I’m the best boss they ever had.

      I’m even embarrassed typing this. We are so socialized not to brag!!

    • Monday

      I like this thread!

      I’ve always been an exceptionally fast worker, with very few errors. I have ended up with extra time on my hands in every job and with every workload I’ve ever had.

    • great memory

      I have an excellent memory, not quite photographic, but I can basically put pages of words on a page in my head. In college, I would type notes almost verbatim during lectures, and when study time came, I could tell you which page, where on the page, etc. to look for an answer in my notes. So test-taking is basically just reading my notes from the page in my head (though, this is a double-edged sword, because if I didn’t write it in my notes, it means it didn’t make it into my head, my ability to deduce answers or trying to “work backwards” is much more limited because I’ve always just put the answer into my notes and therefore into my head). I can memorize scripts super-fast, so I don’t need much time to prep a presentation. I can let a ton of information come at me, and six months later, pull out that one thing that someone said. I can capture song lyrics to look up later with surprising accuracy.

      • Anonymous

        I can remember where a quote was in the page of original text. I started losing this at menopause and complained to the doctor about it and she laughed at me.

        • Anon

          I can do this too, but I can’t remember things like someone with a photographic memory could. I can say “that part was near the bottom of the page” without necessarily memorizing the actual content.

        • Anonymous

          Same. I’m losing that memory ability as I age and it’s impacting the way I work. It’s frustrating.

          • great memory

            This is disheartening… how are you changing your work strategies? As I mentioned in my original comment, the double-edged sword of such a great memory means that I’m actually not great at working backwards or really getting the concept in abstract. If I’m going to lose my memorization skills as I get older, what should I start doing to compensate so it doesn’t surprise me in 10-15 years?

          • Anonymous

            Instead of relying on a few post its to find what I need, I have been adding quotes and cites to my outlines. With the ability to PDF just about everything it hasn’t taken that much additional time. It’s turned out helpful in the end because it’s easier to refer back to the old outline and adapt it for another project.

      • Anone

        I do this too, by memorizing shapes and placement rather than memorizing meaning. I call it “PDFing memories”.

    • Anon

      Here are all the big things I’ve done in the past 3 years and haven’t posted about on social media because of impostor syndrome: adopted many pets, got married, bought a house, earned a degree, got my dream job, paid off my student loans, and learned a second language. I have two more really big milestones coming up but I suspect I won’t post about those either.

    • AIMS

      I can read a recipe and always immediately know if it’s going to be good or not. It’s a weird skill but it makes me fantastic at picking out great cookbooks.

      I’m also really good at detecting bullsh*t. Maybe it’s related but I do feel weird about the latter, at least with my friends who are more trusting than I am

    • Anone

      I re-enrolled in my master’s degree after eight years of hiatus, due to unemployment and lack of funds. When I was eligible for tuition reimbursement after 2 years at my new job, I started up again. So, start date to end date for my MS was 13 years total. I took so long that the program director died of old age and was replaced.

      I was absolutely determined not to be someone who never comes back to a dropped degree. It took me an insane amount of time to finish, but it’s done, and I didn’t pay a penny of my own money for it.

    • Anon

      I am a fast reader and I have an incredible memory. I have a hard time remembering (!) that others do not have the level of memory that I have, and I have to make sure that I am not frustrated with them as a result. Incredible valuable for being a lawyer.

    • Anon

      This article seems to be a compilation of which celebrities have disagreed with Rowling – what am I missing? I think we can all agree, though, that when it comes to crime statistics, sexual violence against women is incredibly underreported. What is it, less than 5% of rapes are ever reported? I could be off by a few percentage points, but that must always be taken into account whenever we discuss violence against women. FWIW, I personally do not believe (based on available evidence) that transwomen are any MORE likely to commit crimes than males – they’re just as likely, but not more.

      I recommend checking out Fair Play for Women’s website if you want to see detailed breakdowns and critiques of the available research on suicide risk in youth and male violence. 4th Wave Now is another good resource. We also must be cautious about speculating about the causes of suicide in youth because of the risk for copycats. This is why schools have generally started banning shrines and memorials on school campuses to youth who have committed suicide.

    • Anon

      I was the one who posted the thread this morning. I would be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on this issue, but I’m a researcher and it just isn’t compelling to constantly hear it’s”dangerous/wrong/ hateful/she’s a white feminist/TERF” instead of thoughtful responses to women’s concerns. What seems more dangerous is the silencing of reasonable debate between individuals who want everyone in this world to live healthy, happy, and productive lives. Why can’t we have that? What is so dangerous about women stating that biological sex is a thing?

      • Anon

        OP from this thread here – I agree with most of what Andrew Carter lays out. His actual twitter thread is worth a read if you have not seen it.
        I work in data too, so I think it’s important to point out, as he does, that she does not reference an external source to support her views anywhere. She talks about them in a nebulous sense, but does not cite them. This lets her make various straw man arguments and unsubstantiated and/or nebulous claims, and then run with them.

    • Anon

      I couldn’t make it through the lengthy list of “THIS rich white male celebrity thinks JK Rowling has no business talking about misogyny,” and “ THIS rich white male celebrity thinks JK Rowling has no business talking about misogyny“ and “ THIS rich white male celebrity thinks JK Rowling has no business talking about misogyny,” amidst overly twee Harry Potter references. If there was anything of substance there, I didn’t have the strength to wade through and find it.

      I’m open to hearing what she may have gotten wrong substantively. I’m not open to yet another virtue-signaling pigpile while newspapers run headlines like “I slapped JK and I’m not sorry” because that’s how seriously physical abuse of a woman is taken if she’s a radical feminist.

      • Anon

        Good lord. Her article can be wrong, and The Sun can be heinously, disgustingly wrong in it’s cover. They are not mutually exclusive.

      • Anon

        +1. REALLY don’t care which males think I shouldn’t talk about periods or misogyny or sexism or pregnancy or male violence or anything else that matters to how I live my life as a woman.

        • Anon

          A. Woman. Wrote. This. Article. What part of that do you not understand?
          Why do you care how trans women live their lives as women?

          • Anon

            I don’t think you get that you shouting at us is only making you look more extreme and unwilling to discuss the issue in an honest way. If you want to engage, don’t post some article from Forbes that highlights male celebrity responses to Rowling’s essay. We don’t care what they think.

          • Hildy

            I think trans women are women and I don’t care what bathroom anyone uses as long as they wash their hands when they are finished.

            That said, please don’t pretend that women can’t perpetuate the patriarchy. The criticism wasn’t of the author but the litany of dudes quoted in the article. I can disagree with a lot of what JK Rowling said and also agree with the statement that I don’t care what a bunch of men say I should think about misogyny, periods, male violence, etc.

    • Anon

      Yeah, Forbes’s hot take being “how do rich white men feel about this” is not surprising at all. It’s not really where I’d go for a nuanced discussion of women’s issues.

      Just another instance of men telling women how to behave, as far as I’m concerned.

      • Anon

        There are women quoted and a woman wrote the article. What on earth are you talking about? And on top of that, there are facts and figures and references. JK has none of those. Incredibly ridiculous to write off literal stats and sources that are in the article.

    • Anon

      Since so many have taken offense to or refused to read the original article – here are some from other publications.
      https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2020/06/jk-rowling-transphobia-feminism
      https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/11/uk/jk-rowling-trans-harry-potter-gbr-intl/index.html

      And, because so many refuse to read what challenges their view:
      – Her trans bathroom predator myth is dangerous, and just that, a myth. https://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assault-domestic-violence-organizations-debunk-bathroom-predator/story?id=38604019
      – She calls de-transitioning an”increasing” phenomenon which is not supported by any data (it is an “infrequent” occurrence according to actual data)
      – Nothing she wrote is based in fact or cited. You question the sources listed here so aggressively, try questioning hers.

      • Anon

        She cited Littman and an ex-doctor from Tavistock. Maybe you don’t think it’s enough or compelling, but it’s not nothing.

          • Anon

            It’s peer-reviewed and it survived the extensive, unprecedented political backlash that arose only because it’s a thoughtcrime to do this research. It’s not a “major methodological flaw” to use a convenience sample – it’s just less rigorous than other study designs. Many studies cited by the other side do the same exact thing (including the study that’s often cited to get that “41% of youth think of suicide“ figure). I appreciate you raising the issue, but I am capable of reading the same evidence you are and drawing my own conclusions.

          • Robin

            It’s not a thoughtcrime. A thoughtcrime is, by definition, something you think but do not do. The reason it’s a problem is that it’s criminalizing thoughts with no corresponding actions. Publishing a study is an action.

            If you mean it’s immediately rejected because Big Trans has forced everyone except this brave iconoclast to pretend that they accept trans people at their word, that’s a different argument. He published an entire study about this and has been doing interviews about what it means. He has done a lot more than think about it.

      • Anon

        So, you’re basically just looking for a fight. That’s really all that’s happening here. I wish posters with this agenda would say, “read my post and read this link so then we can have a fight about it. I am not interested in dialogue or exchanging ideas, just in fighting.” It would save so much effort and be so much more intellectually honest.

  14. Soft misogyny in the workplace

    I need advice. I work almost exclusively with men. It is a demanding and fast-paced environment. From time to time, people understandably take longer to respond to an email or to send out a document.

    I have noticed that when my male colleagues need an extra couple of days to attend to something, it is NBD. Barely noticed. But when I am the one who takes an extra couple of days (always because I had higher priorities), some man finds it necessary to mention in a call or a group email that the deadline was X and lady coworker got it out on Y. This just happened again in a team call and I am livid. Adding insult to injury, the person who called me out was someone that I considered an ally PLUS they already knew why the deliverable was late – the related file that another team had provided was corrupt and it fell to me to have IT fix it.

    What do I do when this happens, short of going full monster?

    • Soft misogyny in the workplace

      I should clarify that by “mention” I actually mean “belabor it by mentioning it multiple times without any context.”

    • Monday

      I find that when I point something out like this in a pseudo-joking way, it usually stops happening. “Gee! We all get things in late sometimes, but has anyone else noticed that I’m the only one who gets publicly and repeatedly called out on it?”

      • Anon

        That’s a bit passive-aggressive. I’d take your script and make it more direct. “Hey boss, we all get things in late sometimes, but I’ve noticed that I’m usually the only one getting publicly called out on it. I wanted to let you know that I’ve noticed that trend so we can find a way to address the issue together.”

        • Anon

          This. Be direct, not passive aggressive. You can say it a lighter way if needed.

        • Monday

          When I’ve tried that kind of approach, I’ve been accused of making a huge deal of it. One time in particular, I brought up sexist comments very informally with 2 coworkers in someone’s car after dinner, and of course did not use the word “sexist,” but -that- was considered too much. It’s not fair, but that’s my experience.

          • Anon

            Fair. It’s definitely damned if you do, damned if you don’t. So frustrating.

          • AIMS

            That’s been my experience too. My step one is always the same as Monday’s. Most people these days take the hint. And you give them a way out if they’re willing to take it.

    • Anon

      I see you work for the same law firm I used to…
      No real advice, but this was one of the things that was most infuriating to me about BigLaw

    • Anon

      I have a general rule for people who call me out publicly – they get called out in turn. Mention that I was late with something (especially when there was a reason; you know there was a reason; you are just being snippy) then I will call you out equally every single time, in an equally public way. Feel the need to copy the partner on every email about something you think went wrong (especially when it didn’t and you are just being defensive), get ready for me to do the same. Every typo, every error. Two can play that game.

      To the OP, next time speak up and say “Why Colleague have you forgotten? The file I was provided was corrupted and I had to have IT fix it. We discussed this.”

      • Anon

        Your last paragraph is perfect. This is exactly how to handle the situation.

  15. Anon

    OMG The Pants really are on sale! (the Eileen Fisher pants a lot of us have.) They’ve been in constant rotation for my WFH wardrobe, just as they were in my office wardrobe.

  16. Kryss

    Regular poster since the beginning of the cite, using my real name here rather than my handle (both for transparency and to separate my IRL identity with my handle where I share things I don’t always want to connect to my IRL identity). I happen to be a transgender youth expert with significant experience and degrees in the field and author of the book, “The Educator’s Guide to LGBT+ Inclusion” where I teach people in education and anyone who participates in the raising of children about inclusion, why it matters, and how to do it. I absolutely appreciate the conversations earlier about JKR and loved that Alex and PugsAndBourbon shared their lived experiences. <3

    I also wanted to correct some misconceptions that were said and not responded to, regarding transgender children and the transitioning process.

    When a child identifies as transgender, they can be as young as 2 years old. Often, this is seen in a variety of behavioral ways and sometimes they will correct parents who call them a "good boy" or a "pretty girl." This isn't just transgender kids, all kids become aware of gender around this age as they become more aware of a sense of self. Typically, not much happens at this age, as there aren't language skills yet to articulate what they mean, so it mostly looks like a child struggling with understanding pronouns.

    As the child is in elementary school, they may begin to act out regarding clothing (which don't match their sense of self) or have accidents (due to not wanting to go into a restroom that feels wrong to them). Normally, behavioral issues lead to school involvement or sometimes a child in grade school may self-harm. It is not uncommon to hear of a "boy" try to remove their p3nis with mom's nail clippers, for example. Another child may ask when the magic fairy is going to come turn their body part into the opposite body part. At this age, they see the problem they are experiencing (not feeling right in their own body) as physical and think that changing the physical solves the problem.

    Kids may be sent to therapy for acting out or self harm, where parents first hear of "transgender" as a word and learn its meaning. At this age, the recommendation is typically to allow for clothing choices and perhaps hairstyle options. It may also be to let the child go by another name or a neutral nickname related to their birth name. The child continues talk therapy. If, at this age, parents are not supportive, the child is likely to remain unsafe and they may begin self-loathing, self-harm, or suicidal actions. If the parents are supportive, the child may look like a "tomboy" or choose neutral clothing (as misogyny is present even here, where it's okay for others to see a girl dressed like a boy but not the reverse). Parents may not explain anything to others yet or they may clue close relatives in to call a child by a nickname or something. Often, this is because everyone is testing this out collectively and no big announcements are necessary quite yet.

    In middle school, when puberty is beginning, trans kids who are not accepted may increase their unsafe behaviors. They may also be angry, destructive, withdrawn, and generally combative. Kids who are supported will begin to discuss puberty blockers in therapy with their parents. These are temporary and simply pause the beginning of puberty. No permanent side effects. This prevents the child from having gender characteristics occur. Without these, it can make the dysmorphia worse and increase risk of self-harm.

    When the child reaches around age 14, (which means they are likely to have been in weekly talk therapy with a gender specialist for multiple years and have had a few years of puberty blockers), the child may want to begin hormone therapy. To access this, the gender specialist has to provide very specific documentation to a medical professional who provides this treatment (who is also a specialist). They work with the family and the teen for what works best for them and what the family can afford, as this is almost never covered by insurance. This continues through high school, with weekly therapy and monthly or quarterly medical visits with specialists.

    At age 17-18, the person may be interested in some form of surgery. The timing of this ties to their body's growth and with their future plans. By this time, they have been in weekly talk therapy with a specialist for more than a decade, plus worked regularly with a hormone specialist for 3-5 years. If this happens, the person has to reach specific milestones in their mental health treatment, obtain documentation of approval, sometimes from 2 or 3 mental health gender specialists, plus gain approval from doctors who specialize in gender confirmation surgery (also called gender affirmation surgery, so GCS or GAS, not "sex change"). These may include surgery on g3nitalia or on bre@st impl@nts or removal. Most times, the person or family saves money for years for this, as it is rarely covered by insurance. The procedure then occurs. Healing takes months and is absolutely intense. During this time, talk therapy continues as do hormone therapies. The expectation is that talk therapy will continue for a while, as the person adjusts to their being inside a body that is more aligned with their identity and as necessary to have healthy coping skills living in a world that is often unkind and horrible to them. Hormones are necessary for the rest of life, so there are forever appointments with hormone experts. Perhaps more surgeries will occur (some choose surgery related to their chest first, then lower surgery later, others only do one.)

    Why so young with hormones and surgeries? First, early intervention lessens suicidality and being bullied. Second, hormones that are introduced early prevent physical gender characteristics. This is super helpful, especially in not having to have other procedures later. For example, not having to have facial hair removal or adam's apple shaving because those never occur, not having to have br3ast removal surgery because those never develop. As for timing of surgery, we also see this often with teens who get nose jobs or the like before they go to college, as they can heal at home and no one in adulthood ever has to see them pre-procedure, so this is not new.

    There are anti groups that put out claims about "detransitioning." In reality, this rarely happens. When it does, the person almost always either retransitions later or they die by suicide. Research indicates that "detransitioning" is not occurring due to having made a gender mistake but to trying to survive in a world with so much hate for trans people. In some cases, the person has been disowned by family and they do this to try to get their family back. It is heartbreaking and a sign of just how impactful a lack of acceptance is.

    TL;DR: there are no 14 year olds having surgeries, there are no creepers having surgeries just to sneak into women's bathrooms, and no parents can push their kid into being trans and transitioning.

    Multiple layers of subject matter experts in this field have to all come together in agreement before any medical interventions ever occur. The APA, AMA, and NASW have all backed this process for decades. Lastly, trans youth are more than 8x more likely to attempt suicide than non-transgender (cisgender) youth. They are significantly more likely to be bullied so badly that they drop out of school. They are substantially more likely to become homeless due to unaccepting families. Having one adult accept and affirm their identity decreases their risk of suicide by 40%.

    If anyone has questions they want to ask privately or share their story or be friends, please feel free to look me up and reach out. My website is ThisIsKryss.com. If anyone has arguments about this, I am always open to explain or discuss, I don't have interest in name calling or a back and forth with someone who tries to conflate their personal opinion or discomfort with what research has shown consistently. I understand that some think this is political but really, it's just about loving the kid and knowing that, when you support who they are, you become someone who lessens their risk of suicide by 40%. Doesn't every kid deserve to be safe and loved?

    I hope this is helpful to those interested and dispels some of the myths you may have heard! <3

    • Anon for this

      I would be curious for your perspective. I’ve never understood why being trans / having gender dysphoria is different from body dysmorphia (e.g. like an eating disorder). Both involve seeing yourself differently than actual physical reality. The latter is treated with therapy intending to change that perception and the former with ways to accept how you see yourself and possibly adapt your body to “fix” how it looks compared to your perception of what it should be. This obviously isn’t a nuanced discussion of the issue but I’ve truly never understood why they are seen as inherently different conditions or treated in different ways. Any guidance you could share would be helpful.

    • Anon

      Olson Kennedy has published research on post-surgical surveys among transitioned youth. In her 2018 paper in JAMA Pediatrics, in the “surgical” cohort, there were two 13 year olds, five fourteen year olds, nine 15 year olds, nine 16 year olds, and eight 17 year olds who were post-mastectomy/“chest surgery.” That’s 34 minors who underwent irreversible, major surgeries. Do you not read her work? I thought she was a major player in the youth transition world and at the forefront of transitioning children.

      I have read a lot of first person accounts from the detransitioners. I’m really unclear why this is so hard to accept and why it wouldn’t be better to just acknowledge that they exist and that they can do their own thing. Obviously their experiences undermine the arguments that “transitioning is the one correct path,” but wouldn’t it make more sense to change your strategy to “transitioning may be a better path?”

      I would also be curious to hear your thoughts about the evidence that the vast majority of all youth with dysphoria will desist by adulthood and that they are more likely to identify as gay at that time.

      I think we all agree that we want what’s best for kids. Everyone deserves to live a happy, healthy life. I have grave concerns about whether the path that you have described is what’s most appropriate and most beneficial for most kids.

    • Anon

      My longer reply has been stuck for a very long time, but Dr. Olson Kennedy is writing about mastectomies performed on 13 and 14 year olds – these surgeries were performed on 34 minors in just one study. It IS happening.

      • Kryss

        The studies offered consideration from ages 13-25, with the mean age being 19. The surgical group was already post-op to participate, those who had not had surgeries were in the control group. Since mental health and medical professionals would not approve surgery for a 13 year old and there would not be reason for this as br3ast tissue would not be formed enough by 13 for any such surgery to make sense, it seems you have misunderstood the study. I think you are absolutely right though, the wording of it is easy to misunderstand and it seems like it could be more harmful than helpful.

        Regardless, just like in every other industry, individuals who are angry about something that is handled by experts in the field can end up angry out of ignorance on the topic. I think we can all be guilty of this. For example, many of us are angry about the slowness of finding a vaccine for covid because, from the outside, it seems illogical or unnecessary in the length of time. However, this is when we must defer to those who specialize in this work to either provide us the education or to simply guide us through a process. I understand that many see youth as “perfect just the way they are” and any change in their physical appearance as “not medically necessary” and thus a really bad idea. However, decades of research proves otherwise. Plus, any changes require a number of experts having to come to a consensus after years or decades of weekly interactions with the individual. I encourage us all to be mindful to defer to experts in all fields as we form educated understandings, even if the situation appears to be weird or illogical based on our own ignorances. I promise to be more mindful of this as well. <3

        • Anon

          I think it’s possible that you are the one who has misunderstood the study: “Most transmasculine youth are accessing care after or near completion of breast development, necessitating surgical intervention for those who wish to have a masculine-appearing chest contour. Because pubertal development of people who are assigned female at birth may begin as early as 8 or 9 years of age, completion of puberty is plausible even as young as 12 years…Of the 33 postsurgical participants younger than 18 years at surgery, 16 (48%) were 15 years or younger.”

          Olson Kennedy also gives cross-sex hormones to kids as young as 12 (which she has published and been quoted on).

          I can see why this would be easy for laypeople to misunderstand – but didn’t you write a book on the subject?

        • Anon

          My reply is stuck again and I have no hope for it getting out, but suffice it to say that you are the one who has misunderstood the study. I recommend going back and reading it carefully. I hope that your book doesn’t include any misinterpretations!

    • Anom

      With no disrespect meant to anyone’s choices to pursue medical intervention to align their body with their identity, I wonder how much easier it would be for trans folks if our society didn’t focus so much on gender roles/behaviors. Would medical intervention still be needed if we didn’t make folks born with particular genitalia fit within predefined roles/behaviors. As a (ignorant?) cis female, I am sad that anyone would need to take hormones or undergo surgery on an otherwise healthy body in order to feel at home in their body and lives. (To be clear, I respect anyone’s choice to do so, particularly since we don’t live in a world that encourages people to embrace their gender nonconformity).

      • Anon

        Religious conservatives: “You must change your behavior to match your sex!”

        Tr@ns activists: “You must change your sex to match your behavior!”

        Radical feminists: “You’re fine the way you are.”

    • Anon

      I look forward to a day when little girls aren’t labeled “pretty girls” and little boys aren’t labeled “strong boys” and girls can play with cars and dump trucks and boys can play with dolls and dress up without it being about gender. The signals we send from day one as a society are so strong that of course anyone who feels atypical is going to feel a sense of dysphoria.

      I suppose I’m imagining a genderless society, one where it isn’t so important to say I’m A or B, but OK and normal to be somewhere in between, and it’s unnecessary to have grisly, damaging surgeries. So that when you’re 18 instead of 14 you can reassess and say I used to feel 75% A and 25% B, but now I’m more 50-50.

      • Anon

        But what is it to “feel like a woman?” I have never heard an answer that doesn’t traffic in gross stereotypes.

        • Anon

          I’m the one you’re responding to and I agree. We need to cut out the gross stereotypes. We can’t even tell what’s nature vs nurture with all the societal garbage these kids are raised with.

    • Anononymous

      While 100% wanting to err on the side of kindness, here is where I have issues:

      (1) My college aged daughter had four friends/acquaintances in her suburban high school who said they were transgendered. Two of them apparently abandoned that when they started college and the other two did not. In some (perhaps limited) circles being “not straight” (whether in terms of sexual orientation or gender identity) has become the cool thing. I worry about young people who are not self-harming being encouraged to transition early. Also, at least one of the trans boys had top surgery well before he was 18 so it is definitely being done.

      (2) It is my understanding that a relatively small number of trans people have gender re-assignment surgery – especially trans women. That is understandable and none of my business. I honestly do not care what public bathrooms people want to use, what pronouns they want to use, or how they want to dress. But if I am in a women’s only space, I really to not want to see someone who from all physical appearances is a man. I am a sexual assault survivor and there are spaces where I need to feel safe and be able to let down my guard.

      (3) I am happy to take people at their word regarding their gender identity – but I also suspect that people will be happy to claim to be trans to gain access to spaces and benefits. If a (heterosexual) couple wants to use the facilities in the day spa together, all one of them has to do it claim to be a trans women and voila. And given how many people claim that their pets are therapy animals, I have no doubt about their willingness to take advantage.

      (4) Since we are encouraged to just accept people for whatever gender they present as, there is essentially nothing to stop someone from claiming to be trans when they are not and thereby taking advantage of programs set up to benefit women. Given the recent college admissions scandals, does anyone doubt that that a “trans woman” athlete would be given a scholarship if the NCAA allowed it?

      So again – I am happy to be kind – especially to young people. But the idea that trans women are women in all circumstances and based solely on their self-identifying statements leaves a lot of room for abuse.

      Also, biological s*x is an actual thing for medical professionals. So please for the love of all that is holy, when the form asks for s*x, please do not say you are a man when you are definitely not biologically a man or vice versa. Please don’t write “not applicable” or rail about how gender is a construct. We do actually need to know in order to evaluate you.

      • anon

        +1. Gender is a construct, biological sex is not. Physiology—not identity—is what matters in certain settings, e.g. medical appointments.

      • Robin

        The NCAA allows trans women to compete as women only after a year on testosterone suppressants, at which point their performance is on par with a cis woman. A trans woman who’s getting a scholarship to compete as a woman would face the same requirements.

        https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf

        The page that begins NCAA Policy on Transgender Student-Athlete Participation. Yes, I know it’s from 2011, but it does appear to be the most recent update.

    • Anon

      I’m curious what you think about this article, which was on the homepage of People today: https://people.com/human-interest/parents-helping-people-embrace-12-year-old-son-transgender-identity/

      I feel like one of my big issues with the idea of prepubescent children identifying as transgender is that so much of it seems wrapped up in really outdated and frankly incredibly sexist stereotypes about what is “gender non-conforming behavior.” This article kind of exemplifies that – these parents say their child was “gender non-confirming” at a young age because he was pretending to be Aladdin at age 2 (when he was then a girl). I’m not a child psychologist but I am a woman and a mom to a daughter and there’s nothing about a 2 year old girl playing Aladdin (or Superman or Derek Jeter or any other famous male person/character) that is gender non-confirming. It’s perfectly normal imaginative play. And then his parents say that things got worse when he went to school because he wanted to be Buzz Lightyear during pretend games. If someone told my daughter that she couldn’t be Buzz Lightyear in a pretend Toy Story game, my reaction would be to tell her to tell them to shove it and maybe have words with the teacher, not to start shopping for clothes in the boys section. In fact I’m pretty sure I WAS Buzz Lightyear for Halloween once as a child. I realize that there is eventually much more to feeling transgender than wanting to pretend play opposite sex fantasy characters, especially by the time puberty rolls around, but I do wonder how much of that is because the parents pick up on so-called “gender non-conforming” behavior (which is what I would call non-stereotypical behavior) at a young age and guide them down that path.

      • Anon

        Yup. 100% this. It’s all “I knew I was a girl because I liked pink and was weak.” In a lot of cases, there is the bonus “my parents are homophobic and would rather have a daughter than a gay son.”

        • Anon

          I’m kind of hoping this conflict is generational; a lot of younger people seem much less invested in such narrow and polarized gender roles and expressions.

      • Anonymous

        This. I come from a long line of women with stereotypically masculine interests who prefer pants to dresses and excel in STEM. The idea that we’re somehow not really women is deeply offensive to me. We need to fix our society so that boys can like tea parties and ballet and girls can like construction and robotics and we don’t see anything wrong with those preferences, instead of telling our kids they might be transgender. And yes there’s a lot of homophobia wrapped up in it too, especially with little boys who have “feminine” interests.

      • Anon

        I agree with all of this. By all accounts I was a gender non-conforming child. I hated pink/purple, refused to wear dresses, ran around in the mud with the boys in the neighborhood, thought dolls were “stupid”, loved sports, etc. I also got my period at age 9 and was “done” with puberty by 11 or 12 (I’m the same height and bra size I was when I entered middle school). I’m a straight cis woman and the idea that someone may have pressed or encouraged my parents to have me engage in hormone therapy or surgery is somewhat terrifying to me. I’m trying to raise my girls similar to the way my parents did – encourage their interests whether they conform with gender stereotypes or not and don’t label them as such.

    • Anon

      I wish more kids had the option of leaving school on their own terms without feeling like they failed or were driven out. I was an academically successful student who had friends and who was never bullied or marginalized (I was too tall for my age and too sharp tongued). But I wasn’t blind to what a degrading environment school could be for outliers. And even though I wasn’t directly affected and was sometimes in a position to stand up for others, it was still demoralizing and quite literally depressing to be trapped in an environment where anyone who wasn’t “normal” was perceived as some kind of problem by both peers and adults. College, without being perfect, was a healthier environment in so many ways.

    • Anonymous

      I think that for biological girls, signs of puberty (needing deodorant) can start around age 8 and many get their periods in elementary school (aged 10-11). The biological boys in their class are still prepubescent boys and look to be like that for years to come (with few outliers). Puberty for girls happens younger and younger, in part due to obesity but often due to family heritability. I don’t see this noted at all on the timeline.

  17. Kryss

    Regular poster since the beginning of the cite, using my real name here rather than my handle (both for transparency and to separate my IRL identity with my handle where I share things I don’t always want to connect to my IRL identity). I happen to be a transgender youth expert with significant experience and degrees in the field and author of a book about it.I absolutely appreciate the conversations earlier about JKR and loved that Alex and PugsAndBourbon shared their lived experiences. <3

    I also wanted to correct some misconceptions that were said and not responded to, regarding transgender children and the transitioning process.

    When a child identifies as transgender, they can be as young as 2 years old. Often, this is seen in a variety of behavioral ways and sometimes they will correct parents who call them a "good boy" or a "pretty girl." This isn't just transgender kids, all kids become aware of gender around this age as they become more aware of a sense of self. Typically, not much happens at this age, as there aren't language skills yet to articulate what they mean, so it mostly looks like a child struggling with understanding pronouns.

    As the child is in elementary school, they may begin to act out regarding clothing (which don't match their sense of self) or have accidents (due to not wanting to go into a restroom that feels wrong to them). Normally, behavioral issues lead to school involvement or sometimes a child in grade school may self-harm. It is not uncommon to hear of a "boy" try to remove their p3nis with mom's nail clippers, for example. Another child may ask when the magic fairy is going to come turn their body part into the opposite body part. At this age, they see the problem they are experiencing (not feeling right in their own body) as physical and think that changing the physical solves the problem.

    Kids may be sent to therapy for acting out or self harm, where parents first hear of "transgender" as a word and learn its meaning. At this age, the recommendation is typically to allow for clothing choices and perhaps hairstyle options. It may also be to let the child go by another name or a neutral nickname related to their birth name. The child continues talk therapy. If, at this age, parents are not supportive, the child is likely to remain unsafe and they may begin self-loathing, self-harm, or suicidal actions. If the parents are supportive, the child may look like a "tomboy" or choose neutral clothing (as misogyny is present even here, where it's okay for others to see a girl dressed like a boy but not the reverse). Parents may not explain anything to others yet or they may clue close relatives in to call a child by a nickname or something. Often, this is because everyone is testing this out collectively and no big announcements are necessary quite yet.

    In middle school, when puberty is beginning, trans kids who are not accepted may increase their unsafe behaviors. They may also be angry, destructive, withdrawn, and generally combative. Kids who are supported will begin to discuss puberty blockers in therapy with their parents. These are temporary and simply pause the beginning of puberty. No permanent side effects. This prevents the child from having gender characteristics occur. Without these, it can make the dysmorphia worse and increase risk of self-harm.

    When the child reaches around age 14, (which means they are likely to have been in weekly talk therapy with a gender specialist for multiple years and have had a few years of puberty blockers), the child may want to begin hormone therapy. To access this, the gender specialist has to provide very specific documentation to a medical professional who provides this treatment (who is also a specialist). They work with the family and the teen for what works best for them and what the family can afford, as this is almost never covered by insurance. This continues through high school, with weekly therapy and monthly or quarterly medical visits with specialists.

    At age 17-18, the person may be interested in some form of surgery. The timing of this ties to their body's growth and with their future plans. By this time, they have been in weekly talk therapy with a specialist for more than a decade, plus worked regularly with a hormone specialist for 3-5 years. If this happens, the person has to reach specific milestones in their mental health treatment, obtain documentation of approval, sometimes from 2 or 3 mental health gender specialists, plus gain approval from doctors who specialize in gender confirmation surgery (also called gender affirmation surgery, so GCS or GAS, not "sex change"). These may include surgery on g3nitalia or on bre@st impl@nts or removal. Most times, the person or family saves money for years for this, as it is rarely covered by insurance. The procedure then occurs. Healing takes months and is absolutely intense. During this time, talk therapy continues as do hormone therapies. The expectation is that talk therapy will continue for a while, as the person adjusts to their being inside a body that is more aligned with their identity and as necessary to have healthy coping skills living in a world that is often unkind and horrible to them. Hormones are necessary for the rest of life, so there are forever appointments with hormone experts. Perhaps more surgeries will occur (some choose surgery related to their chest first, then lower surgery later, others only do one.)

    Why so young with hormones and surgeries? First, early intervention lessens suicidality and being bullied. Second, hormones that are introduced early prevent physical gender characteristics. This is super helpful, especially in not having to have other procedures later. For example, not having to have facial hair removal or adam's apple shaving because those never occur, not having to have br3ast removal surgery because those never develop. As for timing of surgery, we also see this often with teens who get nose jobs or the like before they go to college, as they can heal at home and no one in adulthood ever has to see them pre-procedure, so this is not new.

    There are anti groups that put out claims about "detransitioning." In reality, this rarely happens. When it does, the person almost always either retransitions later or they die by suicide. Research indicates that "detransitioning" is not occurring due to having made a gender mistake but to trying to survive in a world with so much hate for trans people. In some cases, the person has been disowned by family and they do this to try to get their family back. It is heartbreaking and a sign of just how impactful a lack of acceptance is.

    TL;DR: there are no 14 year olds having surgeries, there are no creepers having surgeries just to sneak into women's bathrooms, and no parents can push their kid into being trans and transitioning.

    Multiple layers of subject matter experts in this field have to all come together in agreement before any medical interventions ever occur. The APA, AMA, and NASW have all backed this process for decades. Lastly, trans youth are more than 8x more likely to attempt suicide than non-transgender (cisgender) youth. They are significantly more likely to be bullied so badly that they drop out of school. They are substantially more likely to become homeless due to unaccepting families. Having one adult accept and affirm their identity decreases their risk of suicide by 40%.

    If anyone has questions they want to ask privately or share their story or be friends, please feel free to post a burner email. If anyone has arguments about this, I am always open to explain or discuss, I don't have interest in name calling or a back and forth with someone who tries to conflate their personal opinion or discomfort with what research has shown consistently. I understand that some think this is political but really, it's just about loving the kid and knowing that, when you support who they are, you become someone who lessens their risk of suicide by 40%. Doesn't every kid deserve to be safe and loved?

    I hope this is helpful to those interested and dispels some of the myths you may have heard! <3

    • Anonnn

      I believe what you are saying, but I find it hard to relate to. I sometimes wonder if many cisgender women struggle with gender because of patriarchy and struggle to see it as this binary, this engrained, and this embodied? I remember reading about John Money’s incredibly abusive experimentation on David Reimer left a big impression on me (David Reimer was cisgender but had his gender reassigned as part of a bizarre nature/nurture experiment). I also read stories about the harmful effects of inaccurate gender assignments at birth (including surgical gender reassignment performed on infants) in the context of activism aimed at ending this practice. It is messed up on some level to look at stories that aren’t really about transgender experiences at all, but I think used to have some bad assumptions about how gender works in cis contexts too (including in myself).

Back to Top

About

Work with Corporette®

Serious Stuff

work fashion blog press mentions