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Today's reader question comes from a lawyer in a small, private firm on the East Coast, who was told by her male boss that she dresses “too well.” What does it mean when someone says that? And what should this young legal eagle do about it?
I've been at my first job out of law school for 15 months. I'm 26 years old, but have a young face and often get asked if I'm an intern instead of an attorney. I am a litigator and I wear suits when I go to court, which is roughly twice a week.
Joking in the office one day, I mentioned to an Of Counsel with whom I am comfortable that I got the intern comment again. He said that, while I do have a young face, I dress “too well.” He said that I need to “be a little frumpier or dowdier.” That, while I dress well for a young, female professional, I dress TOO well for a young, female attorney. The analogy was made that I dress similarly to a middle aged male attorney who wears a blue pinstripe suit, blue shirt with the contrasting white collar and French cuff, cuff links, and a giant diamond pinky ring – just “a little too cheesy.”
Is the Of Counsel right? Do I need to wear silhouettes that are more boxy, as he also suggested? I want to be taken seriously as an attorney, but don't see the reason to cater to ultra-conservative views on wardrobe when I would be uncomfortable in such things, as it is not my personal style.
(We've edited her e-mail for space; she also notes that she has a second job working at the local Express, and owns much of what is sold there; she attached the above blouse as an example. Essential Stretch Striped Shirt, $49.50, Express.)
{related: dressing better than your boss, designer bag edition}
What To Do When Your Boss Tells You You Dress “Too Well”
First: We're not going to comment on the many, many, many things we might say about the of counsel, the propriety of his remarks, or what kind of working environment it must be. Maybe he's like your frumpy father or big brother and only meant to be helpful — for example, if he had stopped at the cufflinks/gold pinky ring comment we probably wouldn't have a problem with this. Maybe he's a jerk, which is the vibe we're getting from his suggestion to wear “boxy” clothes, i.e. “less sexy clothes that hide your figure.” We don't really know.
We might just link to this fact sheet from the government about “when to know if it's sexual harassment,” however. We might also suggest you contact your alumni career office to see how they recommend dealing with the situation (and perhaps if they can recommend a good recruiter).
Second: Sigh. The fact remains that he's a superior to you, you still have to work with him, and worse, whatever it was that he's projecting may be something that a lot of men (and women) around you are projecting.
Is “Dressing Too Well” Code for “Dressing Too Young” or “Dressing Too Sexy”?
So it's time to do some soul searching — are you wearing your clothes too tight? You may want to start buying a larger size at Express (or two) — clothes will still have a fitted, tailored look, but won't be painted on (as they are in many of the models).
Here are some links to discussions on the appropriate skirt length, the perfect pants fit, and the best lingerie for office looks.
Another thing to watch out for is whether your clothes are too low-cut. Express can be a mixed bag — there can be some great work basics in there — but there can also be some sexy going-out clothes in there. Steer clear of the going out clothes.
You may want to peruse the website at far more conservative places like Brooks Brothers and then view your closet through those eyes — would BB sell a frumpier version of it? With the top above (a simple fitted shirt), the answer is absolutely yes.
{related: do check out our regularly updated list of wardrobe essentials for work!}
What To Do If You Look Young (No Matter Your Business Clothes)
Finally: We hear from a lot of women that they have issues with looking too young, and we're going to ask our readers — how do you deal with this? Our suggestions: Pull yourself up tall — really work on your posture and conveying authority through your body language. Make sure that all aspects of your outfit — your coat, your shoes, your bag — convey “grown up.” (For example, avoid a puffy coat and a backpack.) You may want to keep your hair pulled back in a neat (and intentional) low ponytail.
{related: how to be taken seriously when you look young}
Ok, readers, we're sure you'll have thoughts aplenty — what are your thoughts on her e-mail? On changing her appearance for her (current) boss? About looking too young?
cs
Sorry to be harsh, but I can’t imagine wearing anything from Express to work at my law firm. It seems like cheap fun clothing, not something to wear if you want to be taken seriously. A lot of our secretaries and paralegals wear clothes from Express, which may explain why people don’t think she’s a lawyer.
Trunk
Second. At Express the issue is the material, lack of lining in many pants, the blends and cuts in the suiting … the ‘suiting’ sends a message that perhaps she is a college student trying to dress properly without proper guidance.
This coming from someone who more than once went to put on a pair of pants from Express this summer, realized they just hugged all of the ‘right places’ wrong for work…and every time the pants went back in the closet and on came the J. Crew trousers (properly lined and not stretchy…).
Sharon
I agree. Express is what I would call “professional wear for people who don’t know any better.” She may enjoy her job, but Express clothing often looks cheap, and at the same time, can look showy (which may be where he’s getting the “pinky ring” vibe).
BitterJD
Absolutely agree with your quotation about Express. You can immediately see the difference in quality of the clothes from that store without even looking at the tags.
Wearing a nice silk blouse or fine cotton button-down and a J.crew suit does not necessarily equate to “ultra-conservative.” Try to mirror what you see in the J.crew catalog suit section. They hit the right medium between appealing to a GenY attorney and to the baby-boomer attorney…all the while avoiding a risque look.
At 26, I understand that you may not want to wear Brooks Brothers. (I know I can’t because they don’t carry my small size). But you can still wear much more upscale work clothes without breaking the bank. Try Ann Taylor or Banana, too. Anything but Express. Good luck.
Faith
Yikes. I must be the only one to disagree here. I have two express pant suits that I love, receive compliments on and feel most confident in. They are the only suits that fit me right and I don’t feel like I’m a kid playing dress up in Dad’s clothes.
SUCL 3L
While generally I agree that Express is not the greatest, that’s not to say that you can NEVER find something professional. Personally, I prefer The Limited – it’s like the more grown-up older sister to Express.
anon
Absolutely agree. You do need to build up your wardrobe when just starting out, and that may mean some cheaper pieces, but Express is just not the go-to. There are many other choices out there that are not made of flimsy thin material and don’t have the sex-driven asthetic.
MissAnnOnymous
Ditto the four people above me, word for word. Express is for people who don’t know better. Their clothes do look cheap and are always too fitted. I’m 28, as well, so I’m a peer saying this.
Perhaps the reader who wrote in can consider using her employee discount at The Limited, Express’ sister store, where she’s likely to find more appropriate attire.
Corporate Tool
I’d actually suggest H&M. You have to be discerning, but they have some nice “suit” dresses and skirts. I wouldn’t buy a full suit from them, but getting a couple of pieces to mix with fancier stuff has served me well.
lawdiva
The Limited is awful, IMO. Their clothing is often too tight and the fabric is usually synthetic.
NatAt
I also agree with Corporate Tool re: H&M as an affordable option for work appropriate clothing on a budget. I am 23 and work as a paralegal (and, outside the office, am carded at bars and R rated movies frequently) at a major law firm, and am frequently addressed as an associate. I credit this useful ‘aging up’ to choosing a mix of pieces, from H&M and Banana Republic on the low end to Theory on the high end. With the fantastic sales that retailers and discount stores offer, affording a really beautifully tailored blazer and sheath dress is possible on any (and certainly any practicing attorney’s) budget; these key expensive pieces mixed with trendier and more affordable H&M will definitely do the trick.
Anon
Absolutely agree with Trunk. Express does not carry the type of professional clothing I’d expect to see an associate wear at my firm. I’m 29 and a fifth year associate and if I saw a first year wearing the type of form-fitting clothing they have at Express, I’d probably pull her aside and suggest she check out AT or JCrew.
The majority of my suits come from JCrew and I try to take my styling “suggestions” from their catalog. I think I fit within the fine line between “frumpy” and “sexy,” and no one’s ever commented on my clothes (although, in the name of full disclosure, I should say that my firm would let me wear jeans and sweatshirts to work every day, if I wanted to).
LYA
I agree to a certain extent. Express needs to be mixed in with classic and/ or higher-end pieces to work, IMHO.
ning
I actually have to disagree with the Express comment- truth, most of those clothes are more for “going out,” but if you’re discerning about fabric, there can be some great finds.
For example, those of us who can’t afford the famed Theory dress pants yet, the Express “editor” pant has a great fit. I have a curvier frame, so I often have trouble finding dress pants that fit well- they either go into “grandma” category, or wind up looking entirely inappropriate and too tight in the wrong places. However, I have several pairs from Express that look wonderful for the office. There’s a variety of lengths, colors and fabrics available, and my only caveat here is that you should choose the heavier fabric- it just maintains a more professional look throughout the day.
I’ve also found happiness with some of their more conservatively cut sweaters and blouses (they do exist!) and pencil skirts (I’m only 5’5”, so length generally isn’t my problem).
sam
i can’t even focus on the questions at hand b/c i’m too depressed that a litigator has to work at an Express on the side!
v
Amen, Sam – frigging student loans.
As to the question, am I the only one who feels like he gave her weird semi-contradictory advice? The “wear boxier clothing” advice feels disconnected from the “you dress too nice/formally” advice. I don’t know how one would reconcile that sartorially, which makes me wonder if this is more just a power play on his part. Though, of course, you do have to work with him, so in that light C’s advice makes a lot of sense.
City Girl
I zeroed in on that too. Ultimately though, she works for him, and C’s advice makes a lot of sense.
SF_girl
Agree with E.F. I read “you dress too nice” as an attempt to say that the clothes were too sexy/revealing/whatever for the office without crossing the sexual harassment line.
Samantha
I second this. “Too nice” here is a euphemism for something else he wants to say. I would hazard a guess at “too sexy”/”too much bling/shininess”. Dont be offended by him, take his feedback in a positive way (he did try to phrase it nicely after all) and try to apply it.
Liz (Europe)
If he’s saying wear something boxier, I’d hazard a guess that he thinks the clothes are too tight.
anon
I was wondering about that too, and all I can come up with is that her style is unprofessional. He probably didn’t want to say that she looks like she is about to go on a date, but “too nice” and “boxier” sounds like the style is too form-fitting and revealing for the office.
Anon
You aren’t the only one. To me, being told you dress “too nice/formally” is when you are the only one wearing a full suit etc. on a daily basis when everyone else is wearing business casual. I think he was trying to tell her that her choices may be a bit too sexy for the office but he didn’t want to use those words for fear of HR repercussions (just a theory).
JRA
I’m with some of the other commenters on this one – I think he’s suffering from male attorney pattern bad-talking-to-women-ness. Particularly with the emphasis on appropriateness in the work place, “nice” was probably the safest word he could come up with and still express (no pun intended) that her outfits were not hitting the mark in the professionalism category. Tell a young female lawyer that she looks too sexy, her clothes look cheap, or she looks to young, and you’re likely to get a mouthful and a potential report to HR.
Couldn’t agree more with commenters above as well – Express is FUN, but generally not work appropriate. Fabrics and cuts aside (ditto everyone above), some of the trendy details that make the clothing fun are very youthful, and won’t help your case if you’re already young-looking (I’m looking at you, puff sleeves, bright bright colors, rhinestone buttons, random buckles, random rouching, and extra zippers).
A rule of thumb: when shopping or picking an outfit for work, look at the item and ask whether you like it because it’s cute, sexy, or fun. If that’s the case, keep it for the weekend. If the item evokes words like feminine, classy, sophisticated, or womanly, go for it.
LMo
As a 3L, that was hands down the most horrifying part of the e-mail.
PurpleViolet
I think he was trying to explain why she was not dressed appropriate in a nice way and that was the best he could do. Give the guy a break. It sounds like she needs a more mature style.
E.F.
I bought an express button up shirt once because I loved the blue color, but they are way too low for the office. (I’m 24, law student. And I looked to see if there are ones that go up higher, there’s not). I think judging from the fact that you feel comfortable with him, that he wasn’t being weird but was telling you dress too sexy, too inappropriate for the office. You can be fabulous at the office and dress beautifully, what he was saying is you look cheap and young. Set aside some money and totally redo your wardrobe. You can look young and not frumpy with more expensive, better made, well tailored clothes.
anon
Heartily agree! I like to show my girls off, I work in a business casual environment, and I wear tons of makeup, and Express’ button-down blouses were way, WAY too low-cut for ME. So that’s really saying something.
I think the boss was trying to give recommendations without exposing himself to a harassment suit
Corporate Tool
I also look very young (I’m 25) and find that I combat it in a couple ways:
1) always wear (muted and low-key) makeup. I don’t wear lipstick, chapstick instead, a little powder foundation and light eyeliner–it makes me look more like a “grownup, ” and more polished. Also, STAY AWAY from glosses. Anything shiny/shimmery/glossy is going to make you look younger
2) wear dark and muted colors–while the 40+ ladies can get away with lime, and pink and red, I stick to earth tones, greys, blues, and most often black
3) tie your hair up/back–long, flowing hair can be one of the key elements to a “youthful” look.
4) downplay the jewelery–unless it is ONE statement piece, I’d stick to pearls, plain gold/silver/platinum and less flashy jewels. I actually don’t wear my enagement ring to work now that I’m married, just the plain gold band
5) lower heels, but not ballet flats–I wear 2.5-3 inches max. Taller heels, and thinner ones, seem to be another ‘young’ thing. Granted, I’m pretty tall, but it seems to me that only the youngest women in my office wear anything 3+
Basically, it sucks. A lot. I often feel like I have VERY little personality in my clothing, but I wear what I want on the weekends, and remind myself that when I’m LPC’s age, I can wear a hello kitty pendant.
LPC
Aw. This makes me smile. There is no question but that you have to start conservative, and grow a personal style along with your stature in your profession. Tool, I think your 4 points above are very sound. BTW, I would still tuck my Hello Kitty necklace in to meet some clients. At the end of the day, business is to generate revenue.
Kim
I look young too, so I don’t wear trendy jewelry; I stick to diamonds (real – large ones just look fake, which is what Express sells), real gold, pearls, and Ann Taylor jewelry. But I’m short, so I wear medium to tall heels. Ponytails that are not low look young.
Ditto on all the Express comments. Try slightly-wide leg pants – they are less likely to hug your butt. For tops – do silk or silk-looking (i.e. discount store) with a well cut suit.
Not that I think about this often ;)
A
I agree. I am 28, small and look very young … depending on what I wear. I used to wonder if I should dress “frumpier” to appear older, but I have found that if I wear a nicer suit from Banana or AT, I will be treated differently and can command much more respect. And that allows me to be a little more expressive of my personality. However, I agree – stay away from Express.
ceb
Generally great advice, but I actually find that a lack of lipstick actually makes you look younger. Rather than chapstick, I would recommend a creamy or matte lipstick in a rosy nude or berry shade. I think this adds more sophistication than chapstick without being obnoxious. Good call on the “steer clear” of glosses advice. Glosses do make you look more youthful. That having been said, I do like a little dab of Bobbi Brown “Rose Sugar” gloss over my lipstick in the afternoon/evening, but I’m old enought that nobody is going to confuse me with an 18 year old (although I wouldn’t mind it if they did!).
Nancy P
Totally agree ceb. When I graduated college, I was working as an organizer, and working with volunteers MUCH older than me (all of 21). I thought lipstick helped me look like I at least belonged in the working world. Something in the muted pink / brown matte range. You can buy great long-lasting ones at the drugstore for $10 or less.
E.M.
I have mixed feelings about this. While it’s totally possible that she’s dressing too, umm, “tight,” if it were really a problem, it seems that perhaps the best solution would have been for the male superior to have a female superior talk to her about it. Otherwise, I have a strong suspicion that he’s just projecting his discomfort with his sexual attraction. And that’s a him problem.
LPC
Yes. This is what I thought too. It sounds like two things are happening here. a) He thinks she’s cute and he doesn’t like it b) He thinks she dressed too snappy, too much like she wants to look cute, too body-conscious, too girlie, pick your term. The context is very important. How old is this guy? To what extent does he reflect the mainstream firm culture? How frank is your relationship? If you have a good relationship, I’d ask him to point out women who he thinks dress appropriately. That’s the best way to figure out just what he is referring to. In terms of him thinking you’re cute, well, he can’t help that. But he does have to manage his feelings professionally. Make sure no line is ever even close to be crossed. That’s a very tough skill to learn.
AIMS
It may be a “him” problem, but it doesn’t address the underlying issue — that the OP frequently gets confused for an intern.
I haven’t been to Express in years, but I didn’t even know they sold suits. From the comments above, my impression is of the “suits” they sell at Bebe — where, when I walk by the windows and see these “suits,” I wonder who in the world they are meant for b/c no one who actually has to wear a suit to work could ever get away with one of theirs.
My only other comment would be that if he genuinely meant the frump it up advice, something to consider is whether the OP is putting TOO much effort into her appearance. The one way I can always tell interns apart at my job is that they often look like just had toooooooo much time to put together their work look (since they’re only there a few hours a week & appear to have way too much time to match everything, etc.); most busy lawyers dress rather simpler b/c . . . well, there just isn’t time to match your polka dot button down to your polka dot silk headband. Not sure if I am explaining it well, but something to consider.
anon - chi
I strongly suspect that Bebe suits are made for girls dressing up as Ally McBeal (or fill in a more 2010 appropriate name here) for Halloween! Also, possibly for a certain secretary in my office, who favors the shiny synthetic material, brightly colored, and waaaaay short skirt suits that I think come from stores like Bebe. For the OP, I would take a look at who else is shopping in the stores you usually get work stuff from, like Express – are you seeing other young professionals? Or does the store mostly cater to older teens? I’m not saying you can’t find the occasional work appropriate thing at a place like Express (I have no idea if you can or not) but it’s simply less likely that any given item will be work appropriate at Express vs. Ann Taylor, Banana, J. Crew, or any one of a number of other stores that really do cater to young professionals.
AIMS
I think Bebe is too expensive for teens to wear on Halloween. I always just assumed tbeir “suits” were for call girls trying to look like “sexy executives”.
lalalala
This was my instinct as well.
EM
This EM agrees with ^^ EM.
City Girl
I am 50/50 on how to interpret the situation – I think E.M. sums it up well, but I also know that Express clothing is cut to look tight, so my advice would be for the reader who asked the question to look at Brooks Brothers and assess her closet that way, and go from there.
madison
when he says you “dress too well”, is it possible he’s saying that to cover what he really means? perhaps your clothes are too form-fitting. everything from express is laden with spandex and maybe his suggestion of boxier clothes simply means your current selection is just too tight.
if i had to guess, his comments reflect more on the origin, not on the fact that you’re young and semi-successful. you’re frequently getting comments about your clothes – not just from your boss. maybe it’s time to stop shopping at stores that target the younger set and look to nordstroms and brooks brothers.
Eva
Even Ann Taylor (or Ann Taylor outlet) to ease into the price point.
K
I think you have to be careful with using ponytails in a professional setting. I do think for a lot of people it works well but a low professional ponytail makes me look like a 12 year old boy. When I need to look older it’s a flat iron and hair down that gets the job done.
luluaj
I am nearly thirty and still encounter this problem. I have thought a lot about why I’m still perceived as a paralegal/admin when other (male) contemporaries at the firm are not. In addition to wardrobe, I think attitude matters more than you think. Obviously confidence plays into it …but playing too eager also could send off admin/intern bells. Eagerness – not a hand raising, falling out of your seat, “pick on me, pick on me” obnoxious display but the willingness to accommodate any request for assistance. For example, if I was sitting in a meeting and copies needed to be made, I’d jump up and offer to make them. Obviously, I was trying to be helpful/efficient to move things along. After my epiphany of sorts, the next time the situation arose, I sat quietly. None of my male counterparts jumped up and offered to make copies. They simply said, I’ll call my assistant and have her come up to do it.
Of course, I’m not advocating anyone refuse to make copies or perform any adminstrative tasks. That would be ridiculous. What I’m saying is that it is okay not to be the first to offer and know that it is okay to delegate. You worked hard to get where you are and you have something valuable to contribute. Take a step back and rexamine your conduct in all situations – not just what you wear to court/work (although, I don’t think Express apparel helps your cause too much).
AIMS
I’d add tone of voice to that as well. I find that if your voice is too cheerful and high pitch, it makes you seem much younger. I try to make my voice a bit more commanding (within reason and bounds of my actual octave), and it does wonders.
eem
I agree with this. Also, make sure that you aren’t raising the pitch of your voice at the end of each sentence. It makes you sound like you are asking a question, and as a result makes you sound less authoritative.
Emily
Luluaj: you wrote what I was going to write! Even though I’m nearly 32 and have 3 kids with my husband of 10 years, I am much younger than most of the lawyers who practice in my smallish-sized town. I have been very, very conscious of how I dress, accessorize, wear my hair, wear my make-up, etc., since I started my new job a year ago. I thought I was doing all that I could to make myself seem “mature” and “authoritative,” but this morning one of my bosses (a man in his early 60s) affectionately called me “kiddo” when I came to his office. I really admire this person and we have a good relationship, but it still kind of bugs me.
And it got me thinking. I’ve been focusing on my appearance, but I think I’ve seemed too helpful, accomodating, eager – whatever you want to call it. I was a law clerk for 4 years before this “new” associate job, so I realize that I know very little compared to the much more seasoned attorneys in my office. I think in my zealousness to show that I am ready to learn and do whatever is asked of me, I might be sabotaging my efforts in the appearance category. I’m going to try to modify my demeanor slightly and see how it goes!
michelle
hey, he’s 60 and you’re 30, you ARE a kid to him! Doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing…
MelD
I don’t think it’s a bad thing he calls you kiddo. I’m friends with a former supervisor from ~10 years ago who still calls me kiddo. The reality is that no matter how much I age, she’s still going to be 20 years older than me.
MJ
Fabulous point. You all should read, “Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office”. It’s not about being an office witch. It’s about toning down behaviors that put you in a negative light when it comes to your authority. Things like, “bringing home-baked goods to the office” makes colleagues view you differently. Things I never thought about as a young professional female. I can’t recommend it highly enough.
jcb
That is a GREAT recommendation! Such an incredibly good, helpful book. I read it after my firm’s women’s group partners recommended it and put it in one of the partners’ ofices as a lending library book. Ended up buying my own copy.
I was horrified to realize that I was an offender for some of those things – like nodding and smiling the whole time an older male partner talks (the “grandfather” reaction). Looked around the next time and realized that it was only the junior girls doing this, ack. There are a lot of unconscious behaviors that can be self-defeating.
Nancy P
Love that book. Need to re-read it!
E.F.
I just ordered this off amazon, thanks for the recommendation!
E.F.
Thanks for the recommendation, just ordered it on amazon!
Amber
Ack! I do that!
I have heard it recommended many other places, so I also ordered it.
Thanks!
3L
I have that book, need to re-read it. But I do remember the don’t bring baked goods into the office advice. I had a co-intern once who was a pastry chef before law school and she was always bringing in cupcakes and cookies and the clerks shared them with other judges’ chambers and everyone was talking about them lol. Not sure if that boosted or detracted from her professionalism, though.
newassociate
seconded. i never thought of myself as that much of a “nice girl” but i was surprised at how many of those behaviors applied to me, and grateful that they were being called out. elbows on the table at the next meeting, among many other to do’s. several of my friends got it after my enthusiastic review and caught other self-defeating behaviors. i re-read it periodically and after this thread will read it again soon.
the author contributes periodically on http://thethinpinkline.com/
L
This book is fantastic. It really highlights the disconnect between behavior that is often valued or positively reinforced in young girls but that is then detrimental in a professional working environment (not being assertive enough, emphasis on being liked rather than respected, being too emotional, etc.). After I addressed some of the issues pointed out in the book, I definitely noticed a shift in perception; people tend to take me more seriously now, and I command more respect from older men. One of the few books I’ve read that has actually had a real effect on my life.
Allison
I just got the digital version on Barnes and Noble.com! Thanks for recommending this book!
Chicago K
I would agree on this. I am 30, and not a lawyer, but in banking. I work with all men, and almost all are much older than me. I found that when the assistant isn’t around, they tend to look at me to make copies and order lunch – probably because I was young and female, but also because I am sure I volunteered at some point, being the nice overachieving chick that I am! It took me awhile to realize I needed to stop this behavior…it didn’t take too long of me going to find the assistant to do these things before they stopped asking as much.
Definately need to get that book by the way; I’ve heard great things about it.
Eva
I think Express clothes often look “trendy,” even when they’re supposed to look professional. Trendy in a young-person way. I think when he suggested “frumpy,” he probably just meant “less trendy, more classic.” And I think that’s probably decent advice for someone trying to look a little older.
Frustrated
This woman’s dilemma is close to my heart because I am a young lawyer of the tender age of 27 and am constantly mistaken for an intern or a student , e.g. I was going through court house security earlier this week when the guard insisted upon seeing proof that I was indeed an attorney (and therefore entitled to bring in my laptop) because, according to him, I “look too young to be an attorney.” Because of incidents like this, I carry my bar card everywhere. For a long time, it really hurt my self esteem, and I constantly wondered what was wrong with me, e.g. do I fail to carry or comport myself as an attorney should and/or am I somehow dressing too risque’? As far as the way I behave and interact with judges, clients, opposing counsel, etc, I have consciously tried to be as professional as possible–almost to the point of paranoia whereby I worry in retrospect whether I smiled too much during the negotiation and thus appeared silly or inexperienced, or if I didn’t shake the opposing counsel’s hand firmly enough and therefore appeared cowed. After much personal reflection and conversations with other, more experienced female lawyers around town, I’ve finally concluded that my comportment is not the problem. As far as my dress, I have taken pains to compile a wardrobe that I’d like to think is classy and mature yet not frumpy or too conservative. It seems that most of my wardrobe is comprised of suits/skirts/blouses/cardigans from JCrew/Ann Taylor/Banana Republic with a couple of things from Talbots thrown in. I try not to purchase the trendy pieces, and, since I think the cut and quality of the clothing can convey a sense of maturity, I shoot for fits that aren’t too form fitting yet not to baggy either–much like the commentator suggested. I think you can find such things at Express , but oftentimes I have had to pass on their clothes because they do indeed seem too tight or have far too many embellishments. I am continuously amazed Express offers those v-neck style women’s oxford shirts; I could never get away with wearing one of them. It really frustrates me that I have to think of these things at all to (as the poster quotes) “be taken seriously,” especially when male opposing counsel shuffles into court wearing (honest to god) wranglers, a tweed jacket, and a bolo tie.
Erin M.
I’m also a 27 y/o and people don’t believe I’m an attorney because I look young, even though I dress well. Generally they don’t take me seriously until I open my mouth. And then I surprise them. This works to my professional advantage, and I would never want to change it.
Besides, I have a better relationship with support and non-attorney staff because, they tell me, I don’t “act” like a lawyer. This is also to my advantage when, say, I need a package sent at 4:57pm or I want to know the latest office gossip.
rr
He was telling her she dressed too sexy for the office. I think he told her a difficult truth in relatively innucous way. Clumsy? Sure… but what was he supposed to say? I can see your t*ts? You dress too sexy? THAT would be inappropriate. I don’t see harassment here – he could have absolutely zero attraction to her and still be cognizant that she was dressing in an inappropriately sexy way.
As far as looking too young, I say, quit buying synthetic fabrics, don’t buy anything cut low enough to show any curve of a boob, wear skirts at least knee length, and wear jackets, not cardigans. I know you’re young and don’t want to look older than you are, but it’s part of the uniform that comes with the job. Just gotta do it.
E.F.
agree, and I just reread the post and realized the writer wrote in about those button up shirts I mentioned as an example of what she is wearing. Get rid of those stat, they are tight and show cleavage.
MelD
Like many others, I’d suggest transitioning into more mature stores for work clothing. Ann Taylor has done a lot recently to create more fun, youthful styles that will look appropriate but still not fall within the “dowdy” category. I’ve gotten a lot of decent work pants/skirts and tops from the BR/AT outlets without spending a whole lot of money, so it’s not that hard to update your wardrobe without breaking the bank.
Otherwise it’s really hard to say what you should do to make yourself look older. I think it really depends on the region and what’s expected/accepted from certain age groups. If possible, I would find a female attorney you trust within the firm and ask if she has any suggestions on what you could do to spiff up your wardrobe and look a little older without looking frumpy.
anon
I’m 25, work at a law firm, and am a soon to be lawyer. I tried on some office attire at express this summer (skirt, pants, top) and did not get them – something was just ‘off’ about them. I guess the best way to describe it is they just didn’t fit/look professional enough – slightly too tight/not thick enough fabric — a little too young. I’d suggest she look at Banana Republic (they can have really good sales) for slightly more professional attire that can show personality w/o having to drop a lot of $. Colors of Benetton (sometimes) can also be a good place to look. And Limited – esp if you get your express discount – might also work. You can find highwaisted pencil skirts that don’t make you look like you might be going to a club later.
Also, unless there is a woman she is comfortable with at the firm, this guy may have been trying to do her a favor.
Lobbyist
Regardless of whether his comment was appropriate or not, I think you now have to do something about it. Is there a woman there you could talk to? They might not say anything, though, even if you might be projecting an image different than the one you intend.
We had a woman at my office who dressed too sexy, and I really liked her but never said anything because I wasnt sure how to do it. She ended up leaving partially because her supervisor (female) didnt like a lot of things about her, in part, her outfits.
(She was a front desk receptionist.) So while I would be totally tempted to get all annoyed and not do anything, I think maybe the posters who are suggesting a re-assesment are right. Good luck to you! Please let us know how it goes.
k
I agree with the Ann Taylor suggestion. The cuts there are a little more generous, so while they aren’t “boxy”, they aren’t form fitting either.
Perhaps get a part time job there instead of Express to help finance the wardrobe change.
Building a professional wardrobe is expensive and if she is already working two jobs, it sounds like it would be a hardship. I’d start with a couple basic pieces… for example, a better, good quality pair of black pants that you can wear a couple times a week if need be, a couple structured jackets to wear over some of the tops, and then maybe a few camisoles to wear underneath the blouses. While transitioning, aim to wear no more than one Express (or similar store) piece a day – eg, the blouse with conservative pants, an Express skirt with an Ann Taylor sweater and conservative shoes.
Simple jewery and avoid super bold colors, especially primary colors which just make you look younger.
dogatemyfinances
The solution is pearls and glasses. They are both aging and professional. Glasses (even fake ones!) take the youthfulness out of your outfits. Pearls show you mean business.
Express doesn’t work for me because I’m on the busty side and that just doesn’t work with stretch fabrics, but I can see how it would be just fine for leaner figures.
anon
I have a lean figure – trust me – they were not fine.
LC
I agree that glasses are a good choice. I wear thicker, dark metal framed glasses, and they make me look and feel more like a lawyer. But wearing fake glasses is silly.
MelD
I’ve never found that glasses age me. I tend to wear contacts at work because I need progressives for an eye condition. Bifocal contacts are so much more convenient and the expensive of the progressives is just so high that I can’t afford to update my glasses more than once every 3-4 years.
em
I just wore an Express v-neck button-down the other day that I hadn’t worn in forever (it’s been far too long since I’ve done laundry). I was shocked at the fit and cut. I am tiny for my 5’8″ frame and barely wear a 34A. I had to wear a cami underneath to avoid being too revealing, and the blouse was super loose in the boob area so if I hadn’t worn a cami it would have been flopping open all over the place. I can’t believe I have so many inappropriate, ill-fitting items in my closet (purchased before I started reading Corporette, of course). I’m going on a closet purge today. Long story short, Express still isn’t appropriate for us skinny chicks.
sam
OK, here’s the problem. He’s trying to give her advice, but was ham-handed about it. He didn’t know the right words to use and was trying to be careful of hurting her feelings. While he succeeded in not hurting her feelings, he garbled his message into something almost unintelligible. When he said “too well” and “more frumpy” what he meant was “less figure-conscious and youthful” and “more professional”. The thing about Express is that its all a lot of polyester and synthetic blends with a LOT of stretch in them. That equals very form-revealing in practice, even when you’re selecting the stuff that looks professional enough on the rack. Combined with your young age and even younger looking face, you’ve got a problem. So when you’re buying clothes with your Express discount that you’re hoping are appropriate to wear to both your jobs, you’re really only ending up with clothes you can wear to one. Possibly its something that you can’t “see” yourself, b/c you’re around Express clothes all the time and thus it looks like the norm for you.
An ideal solution here would be to apply for a job at Ann Taylor instead of Express. I did that when I was first out of college in my first job: work at AT at the weekend, even more for the discount than for the paycheck, and build yourself a professional wardrobe.
Julie
I agree with many of the comments about Express clothes being tight and too stretchy etc. However, I don’t want to attack the person who asked the question by assuming that all of her clothes from there fall in this category. I own a few select pieces from express – a pencil skirt that is by no means “tight” and is lined, some sweater vests that I throw over a button down shirt, etc. And there’s nothing really wrong with their cardigans. I think that it would be a good idea to start transitioning into her wardrobe pieces from stores like Banana and Ann Taylor and take a good look at the clothes she does own from Express. If she finds pieces that could be guilty of many of the faux pas discussed above, start phasing them out. I just don’t want to attack her without knowing her at all or what she’s wearing by assuming that her entire wardrobe is more date worthy than work worthy.
AIMS
Agree completely. One of the best work dresses I ever got was from Urban Outfitters — simple, black knee length; can be (and has been) worn literally anywhere, on any occasioon.
I dont think anyone is suggesting all express clothes should be thrown away (and, to the original poster — please, dont read any of the above & get super self conscious at work or in court while you build your more “grown up” wardrobe, people are only trying to offer their advice, nothing here means that you’re going to work looking ridiculous; at most, it means there are ways you can look better)
cs
The superior’s comments are easy to translate if you assume that he didn’t want to hurt her feelings or use any sexual language.
Given the facts here, it seems pretty obvious that he was trying to tell her that she needs to wear clothes that are of a higher quality and less form-fitting (“boxier” and “frumpier” are nicer ways to put it so she still feels good about what she’s been wearing). The comment that she dresses too makes her feel good about herself without sexual overtones. What he meant was she looks too cute to be taken seriously.
Britt
The other commenters have said everything necessary (Express is not a good choice; get thee to Brooks, Ann Taylor, etc.). I suspect that this guy was probably trying to do the OP a favor, and being a (guessing hetero) man, this was the best he could do to articulate the situation.
I am only 28, but I still wear a TON of Brooks, keeping it youthful with accessories and well cut pants/skirts, etc. It *made my day* when I walked into a conference room recently, and the older female client blurted out in front of several others “You look wonderful! Very professional but not stuffy!” (Thanks Corporette:)
T
Express hasn’t been working out for me of late; their short sleeves shirt are extremely tight around my bicep (and trust me, I’m not that muscular; I only recently incorporated strength training exercises into my routine), and hang like a tent around my chest. Also, their shirts are too low cut even for a slender person like me – I usually wear a camisole underneath.
That said, I have some pants I got there 2 years ago that look quite professional & fit very well (and don’t hug the body in the wrong places)
lawdiva
I sympathize with this person! I’m 30 and love Express, but I agree that only a select few of their items are appropriate for work. I have two turtlenecks and a pair of black Editor pants (not tight) that I wear to my big law job. I don’t anticipate shopping there in the future for work clothes. As everyone has already said, their clothes are too tight and kind of cheap looking. I also think that their tops only work for small busted ladies, and even then, you have to be careful that it doesn’t look too fitted.
Consider buying some investment pieces. I recently started buying a slew of stuff from the Classiques Entier brand at Nordstrom. It is pricier, but lots of stuff goes on sale (check online) and the clothes are very contemporary as well as professional.
jbc
I just had my first personal stylist appointment today at Nordstrom and ended up with mostly Classiques Entier items..and most of those items were on sale! If you have a Norstrom near you the stylist might be a good way to go to get some input on what is appropriate (or not).
M
It kind of sounds like he was trying to give her some warning that she dresses like a tramp without saying outright “you dress like a tramp”. Maybe he was trying to tread lightly, but give her some hints. If no one thinks that she is lawyer, all of her clothes come from Express, and an older Of Counsel comments that her clothes maybe are not the best thing — makes me think she’s dressing poorly.
I mean, the comparison to a guy lawyer with a diamond pinky ring conjures up serious visions of cheese-balls. And, that coupled with the fact that most of her clothes are from Express (which is really not grown-up lawyer-appropriate clothing), makes me think she is really not dressing correctly. Maybe she should look at the other women in her office or lawyers at the courthouse and try to imitate a more grown-up look.
danielle
Well, now I have a dilemma – I have a handful of dress shirts from Express, but I do buy them a size larger as they do run tight, and that’s not my style. So, when I wear them, they aren’t tight – but I can see the concern with their v-neck style (which is a newer thing, I have some older Express button-downs that button all the way to the collar). My question – if they’re worn with a camisole underneath, does that make them acceptable, or are they still too “trendy”? I’ll eventually buy more, new shirts, but it’d be a shame to have to dismiss these entirely.
pinkrobot
In defense of express, they did have some surprisingly classic, nonclingy, spandex free, lined, pencil skirts a while back. I still wear the navy blue & brown ones.
I think express is more miss than hit, but if you can look at yourself in an item and it still looks like it didn’t come from any particular store (assuming it fits and you feel comfortable in it)
IMHO
I think they would be fine with a cami underneath, but the blazer idea is a good one too. Another option is to use them to layer underneath sweaters. I buy NYC button-up shirts for that purpose because they are thinner and more fitted, which means I never wear them alone to work, but helps them layer nicely without bulk.
Clerky
I look young as well, and found that jackets/blazers add an air of authority and make you look older. I have found some fantastic blazers at the Off Saks outlet for $50-$70, and they’re very high quality.
sam
this is good advice: nothing says “take me seriously” like a blazer.
Delta Sierra
Oh, yes. Jackets jackets jackets. They even make me feel more authoritative, which kinda dismays me, but there y’are.
KC
Given what she’s told us about the conversation and her wardrobe, it sounds like “too good” was code for sexy and “frumpier” was code for more professional. I agree that Express clothes, while cute for going out when you’re in your twenties, aren’t appropriate for a lawyer. You just need a more professional version of the clothes you are wearing, and the suggestions made re: stores above are good ones. As far as being mistaken for an intern, some of that just comes with the territory when you are young and youthful looking. I think it happens less often with men but it does happen. When I was starting out, I was constantly mistaken for a court reporter and I was dressing very professionally, it’s just that most of my opposing counsel weren’t used to having a young woman on the other side of their cases and usually, when a young woman showed up for depositions, she was the court reporter. Just do what you can to carry yourself with confidence and to look as professional as possible (which in my mind does not equal frumpy!).
k
Sounds to me like Of Counsel was trying to help. If you are in court, I whole heartedly agree — model your work attire on Brooks Brothers and you’ll always look polished and like the great lawyer the partners, court, and your clients expect you to be.
An inspiration line for me: MaxMara. No frump there but entirely appropriate. (Note, this is not BCBG but grown up MaxMara.)
Anon
I’m 27 and when making an effort I can manage to look about college-aged. When not making an effort its entirely possible I’ll get carded trying to go to a rated-R movie. I’m blond and have a rounder face so short of dying my hair or plastic surgery I just don’t think I can change how people judge my age. I think for some people this is just a fact of life and rather than running from it you should just embrace it. Its part of who you are.
If you dress appropriately (its sounds like the OP could change a few things but isn’t totally missing the mark) and comport yourself well and its still a problem I wouldn’t dwell on it. If you do it will just make you seem unsure of yourself, which I think makes people seem younger.
Anonymous
Oooh, I feel for the letter writer…what a painful/awkward conversation that must have been!
Anyway, other than generally agreeing with the advice above, I have to say that I’m so glad the Corporette is out here as a place for us to figure out stuff like this. I’ve learned so much from y’all!
EMF
At 40 years old, I’m still asked if I’m the attorney when I check in on a case with the Clerk. I find that many attorneys are disarmed by my youthful appearance so I simply use it to my advantage. Regardless of how I dress or style my hair, I’m never going to look my age. I’ve just learned to live with it and turn it into a positive.
As for attire, I buy many suits at Talbots. They have great sales and have classic styles.
MelM
this makes me so much more at peace about my recent birthday because I am now of “that age” where I don’t have to worry too much about what others think and can dress more to suit my style (w/i reason of course). I do feel for this young attorney and hope that she takes all of the above good advice as it is meant – constructively and hoping for her success in the law – not as an indictment of her taste. I was (many years ago) mistaken as the court reporter when I attended one of my first depositions. Looking back, I realize that I was not dressed appropriately – even though I was only “sitting in” at the depo. And even though I don’t always follow it now, I think the advice to dress for the position above where you are is a good one.
ARinFL
Yes! My dad has told me my entire life to dress for the position you want, not the position you currently hold.
Lawgirl
Random Express ShoutOut: I do like my black Express’ Editor pants. They are in heavy rotation in summer/fall. I also like the wool navy pinstriped pants from The Limited ($98). Wear them at least once a week… Stack them up against J.Crew and Banana anyday of the week.
J
Totally agree. I can’t live without Editor pants. (IMO, the trick is *not* to buy them in the smallest size you can squeeze into since they have stretch. Buy a size up.)
Lawgirl
@J, totally agree. My Editor pants are from at least 5 years ago. I’m swimming in my size 6’s and have to wear a belt, but I *know* better than to go down a size. Pants on the ground, pants on the ground..LOL.
ML
Here’s my experience: just when you think you can’t possibly tolerate another comment about how “young” you look, wrinkles will suddenly form around your eyes, your face will droop, and you will look like hell without makeup on. Try not to be too depressed about being mistaken for being younger than you are. :)
MMS
LOL! Agreed!
Delta Sierra
Word. Not to trivialize the OP’s genuine predicament, but, enjoy it while it lasts. I was regularly asked for ID in restaurants and bars all through my late 20s. Ah, those were the days.
ML
BTW, Express is tacky. Go for “classic,” like everyone else basically said.
Mama JD
I definitely agree with all the previous posters who are advising you to stop shopping at Express. It is fine to shop there for your weekend wear but you need more sophisticated, modest-fitting pieces for your professional wardrobe. You can look professional without looking frumpy. Consider the extra expense an investment in your career. Dress for the job you want to have, so think “would a female partner wear something this trendy? this low-cut? this tight-fitting? this short?” Also, the suggestion to wear your hair back and in a very low ponytail is a good one (not a must, but it is an easy way to look polished & serious).
I disagree with the suggestion that you should wear low heels. That really depends on your height. I wear 3 inch heels all the time because I am petite (5’3″) and need some height to avoid looking like a kid! Good luck!
Steph
What do I care if I look “too young” to be an attorney? I have that question, “Are you a real attorney, you don’t look old enough,” or something of that ilk blasted at me at least once a month. I do a good job for my clients and after meeting with them/getting to know them, it has never been a problem. Besides, ladies, one day we will all wish someone said we looked too young. Yes, I agree it is a left-handed compliment, but try and take the good with the bad and move on from such a small issue.
PS – I dress my mood, some days its young and hip, while others its very dignified and profession. I’ve never had someone say I “dress too young.”
AtHomeJD
Echoing what seems to be the commom theme- Express is probably not appropriate office-wear. I know it is hard when you are a young attorney and you want to dress young and trendy, I was there no too long ago, but the bottom line is, you can’t! The discount at Express for employess is great but don’t fill your closet with only thier clothes! I have slowly built up two wardrobes…work appropriate and “going-out” appropriate. H&M and Zara and Ann Taylor (Loft and regular) have great clothes that you can wear and not feel like you aren’t yourself. Good luck!
TGEmpress
To whomever asked about the express dress shirts with the cami underneath – It is what I and about 15 of my female colleagues wear in depositions and the relatively informal docket call. It ends up with a certain West Wing appearance (CJ did this look often as Press Secretary). I have purchased their dress shirts in the past over J. Crew, Taylor, or BR because the Express had better length in the shirt tails. I just wore a higher camisole under the top. {as a caveat I practice not in BIG law but in mid-law in a young woman dominated litigation field – we are a little edgier than this conversation seems to be}
Then again, I am thin, and small busted – I also can pull off express pants without looking like I am going clubbing. But I detest their suits. I have a one button prejudice thing.
Honestly, while I can’t say for certain what the Gentleman was trying to convey I would just like to say that this point out exactly the problem that professional women have. A man would only be approached about his appearance if it was so abysmal it were drawing client complaints. But women – we are open game for comments.
There is a guy who practices in my town – none of his pants fit him (4-5 sizes too big and have been going on 6 years) they are “hemmed” with frayed edge, clearly just cut. He looks crazy, or possibly down on his luck (when I know neither is the case) but no one approaches him to discuss this issue. I see other men show up to depositions in shorts… and yet – we have to have whole conversations on whether we should wear knee boots to court (for instance). It fatigues me.
Delta Sierra
The fatigue, yes. We’re killing ourselves to hit just the right note and men slap on a suit and they’re done. Fashion rule book for men: 3 pages. FRB for women: 1000 pages and always changing. Feh.
SUCL 3L
Agree about the prejudice against one-button jackets. I’m on the full-figured side and one-button jackets look, well, just ridiculous on me.
I have to say that I’ve had the same problem as the OP most of my life. I have long-ish blonde hair (which I HATE wearing back), a round face, and naturally rosy chipmunk cheeks. Dressed in jeans and a t-shirt, I look all of 19 (I’m 25). But apparently I must be doing something right – I’m interning with a judge at the local courthouse and the first few weeks in court people kept asking me if I was an attorney! Wearing a suit and heels is one of the few times when I feel I actually look my age.
Anonymous
Yay West Wing shout out!
My fave suit - from express
http://www.express.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=19972&parentCategoryId=2&categoryId=32&subCategoryId=32&user_att_name=Interest&user_att_value=Email&Mppg=0&Mcatpn=category&Mpper=3&Mcat=32&Mcatp=cat_2&Mpos=19&Mrsaa=*&Mcatn=Jackets+%26+Vests&Mpg=SEARCH%2BNAV&Mrsavf=*
dcm58
Honestly, I think this jacket exemplifies what we are cautioning against. It looks very young and trendy and stretchy — not like a real suit!
Liz
I was a little shocked to see that a lawyer, of all people, also works at Express part-time. But I agree with the general consensus that Express just isn’t quite right for most law offices. I know it’s cheaper and the clothes look like they should be acceptable, but they’re too tight and low cut. I don’t know what offices they actually ARE completely appropriate in.
Anon
Oh, I don’t know. I worked at JCrew and AT after graduating from law school in order to build my wardrobe. I actually made an OK wage for retail ($9/hour) and was able to buy many, many suits for an extremely discounted price. Now, if only I still fit into them!