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Thursday’s Workwear Report: Chloee Linen Top

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

We seem to be having a very British-centric week, with picks from Boden and Whistles earlier on, and now L.K. Bennett. This white linen top is a really great way to elevate your look by adding a punch of sophistication to an otherwise boring basic.

I like the little bow ties on the sleeves, which are easier to see in the main image on the site than in this one. Unfortunately, the top looks a little sheer, so you might want to take a look at our favorite camisoles for work.

Besides white, this comes in navy, bright yellow, and a dark pink (which also look somewhat sheer) and it's available in sizes XS–XL for $85. It's machine washable, with the wool cycle recommended, or dry clean. Chloee Linen Top

A plus-size option (once again, a bit sheer) is at Nordstrom.

Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com.

Sales of note for 12.5

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

372 Comments

  1. Talk to me about your favorite comfort shoes that don’t look hideous. I think I need something with a low heel/wedge and lots of support for high arches.

    2. The Anne Klein Sport line has some seriously comfortable wedges that look cute. (not high fashion…but cute enough) Those are my favorite shoes for travel – you can definitely wear them all day without issue.

    3. Vionic has a few pairs that are decent (many are misses, but a few are hits). If you just need support for high arches, I would consider adding arch cushions to shoes you already have that feel/look good too. I have a few pairs of AGL wedges that I have added arch cushions to, and they’re my faces. Clarks has a very limed few in their “Cloudstepper” line which are not hideous too. You can also sort at Nordstrom for “comfort” and Zappos too.

    4. I’ve had good luck with Dr. Scholls oxfords and sandals from Hush Puppies, believe it or not.

      1. I just bought some Dr Scholls flats (the Gossip) and they are the best!! I walked three miles in them the other day and didn’t feel a thing – and I’m very picky due to an old stress fracture in my heel.

    5. For my “fancy” sandals, I love the sofft wedges (I think they redesign them every year). I wear them to work, to weddings, etc., particularly in the metallic leather (usually a gold-tone or silver). For daily flats I love my land’s end ballet flats – my cole haan loafers have very little arch support. For winter, if I’m not wearing ballet flats, I love my dansko ankle booties (which look nothing like the clogs).

      1. Yes! Cannot believe they do not get more love on this site. Just about the only pairs I wear for formal business attire.

    8. Rockport total motion line. I have pretty much zero tolerance for heels and am able to wear my 3 inch Total Motion heels to court

  2. Have you tried Sofft shoes? They have some professional styles and and very comfortable.

  3. You mentioned being in Tampa in a few weeks. Is that for ISC2? If so, I’ll be there too. — KS IT Chick

  4. Work is slow for the summer, which is normal in my field. But I am SO bored and restless this year. I used to love having the free time in the evenings and weekends for happy hours, gym classes and shopping, but I’m looking for something new and different, maybe more… meaningful I guess?

    1. Volunteer? Just to throw a few ideas out there, if I had extra time, I think it would be great to volunteer with an organization helping refugees resettle in my community. I know people who’ve done summer mentorships of high school students, and many animal shelters needs someone to come play with the cats/dogs, which could be awesome.

      1. +1

        Volunteer – stop by the nearest nursing home, hospital, library, school, arts organization, women’s shelter, food pantry, animal rescue etc… Just search your city and volunteering online, and often there is a local website/organization that helps to gather info. But I love going to places in my community, close to where I live, that often need help and get neglected.

        Get involved in a political cause / election etc…

        Take a class

        Start learning a sport or an instrument

    2. See if there are any lectures or talks or book clubs in the area you’d be interested in. Sometimes some intellectual stimulation is more what you’re looking for.

  5. I am in a pants / suit conundrum. I am a pear with a bit of a tummy. Wool suiting pants (need to be lined or else it’s itch city) are starting to look not awesome as I settle into an I’m-not-22-anymore shape (FWIW, I am pushing 48). Bite the bullet and check out St. John (although maybe that will magnify what I perceive as matron-ish looks).

    I’m also 5-4, so that tends to be too tall for me to wear petite pants (they never seem to be long enough and don’t think I can crock a suit with cropped pants even though Meghan Markle can). But that has also meant that the rise can be too high (like it would be fine on someone 5-6 or taller) and I feel like I’m in Old Man Pants.

    Ugh.

    We’ve got some basic and high end malls here and I’m all for losing an afternoon when its in the mid-90s to staying inside and just trying on pants inside. Maybe with some wine.

    [I wear a legit petite in jackets, and Boss, which I had hoped would work, was a complete fail. Also Brooks Brothers does not work for me either. Proportions were off. Banana has worked in the past but since our interns shop there, I am thinking maybe it is time to move up a notch if there is something great out there.]

    1. I’m a pear who hates suit pants (really all pants) and the best-fitting ones I’ve found have been from Calvin Klein and Ann Taylor. The Calvin Klein ones may have been a fluke- they were final sale at Nordstrom and Calvin Klein is typically out of my price range, so I haven’t shopped their pants extensively- but if it’s in your budget, it might be worth seeking them out!
      At Ann Taylor, I wear The Trouser in curvy fit. They aren’t lined, but I’ve never found the Tropical Wool option to be particularly itchy. It sounds like you might be looking for something a little more high-end than Ann Taylor though, so these might just be a good “tide you over” option if you need one!

    2. As your shape shifts, have you considered switching to dresses? Maybe A-line suit separates are the way to go? My shape has shifted to more tummy and pants just…don’t look good on my anymore. Dresses do though. Talbots has a lot of petite suiting separates, and maybe check them out.

        1. I thought we weren’t supposed to do that here. You ask your question, take the advice people give you and then move on and never speak of it again unless people tell you they want updates, which they usually don’t.

          1. Not at all….. are you being sarcastic? Did someone get on you for this? If so, that’s a shame. We had an update post yesterday that people were very interested in. I mean, obviously don’t spam the board with the same question, but people repost for more replies the next day all the time…

          4. People got on my case for it before, but I’d rather not get into it. I figure if they were that nasty about it, I must have violated an unspoken rule here and deserved it.

          5. Of all the rules that we have/need here, that’s not one of them.

            Rules:

            1) don’t ask if your water bottle is professional
            2) don’t post about that new instagram-based clothing line
            3) shoes are nude FOR YOU, not just nude
            4) every winter we hold a forum on FLEECE TIGHTS and attendance is mandatory.

          7. I love the list of rules from Anon at 11:59. Especially the fleece tights forum.(which I don’t need but am nevertheless amused by.) I don’t think I’ve even seen a list before.

      2. I was following the pants comment yesterday but it seemed to get drowned out with all of the SCOTUS stuff and trolls. I went home and tried on all of my pants and . . . it’s time for a refresh. One of my suit jackets is maybe 3-4 years old and the cut reads as dated, so it’s probably just time for a new suit (hoping I can get ones that are jacket + skirt + pants + dress).

        I have tried Talbots, but our store never stocks them and after ordering thousands of $ in suiting separates, just gave up with trying to figure out what worked size-wise. TALBOTS: stock suits in your stores like BR does. I have $ to spend!!!

        1. I agree with you, but once you figure out your size, I have found that I can order online fairly safely. Why not order a bunch of sizes and have them ship to the store. Go in, try them on and return what doesn’t fit right away.

    4. Have you tried Max Mara? I think I am similar to you, and their pants fit me really well. They have various styles so you can figure out what works best for you– wider leg, narrow leg, pockets, no pockets, higher waist, etc. I think their look is also pretty modern.

        1. I know this is late but….I’ve only gone to the Max Mara stores because they have a wider selection. But if you don’t have one near you, I’d just look at the high end department stores in your area and try some on, or order a few different styles and see if anything works. As a hint, if you are going to be in Europe any time soon, Max Mara is cheaper there.

  6. I’d like to get a little stand for my phone at my desk. Preferably something cute since my desk is pretty gray and dull. My office is pretty laid back in terms of decor so fortunately I don’t have to address any “is my phone stand professional?” concerns. Does anyone know where I could find something like this? My searches are mostly just turning up popsockets and camera tripods. Thanks!

    2. Maybe look for “monitor stand” instead of phone stand, since I’m assuming you’re referring to a typical office desk phone that has a decent footprint?

    3. Just searched “cell phone stand” on Etsy, and there are some pretty cute options in fun colors.

  7. Any advice dealing with a melodramatic, high-maintenance coworker? I have a million stories about this woman but in general, she’s one of these people who gets mad when attention isn’t on her; she thinks her projects should have priority over everyone else’s (even when they’re less critical to the success of the department or not a priority for our senior management); she’s always asking for extra help and extra resources to get work done even though she has less to do than anyone else in our department; she gets huffy and acts extra in meetings when she feels people aren’t “respecting” her enough; she says mean things that demean people she doesn’t think are smart, etc. Part of the problem is that she has trouble setting her own priorities and defining work, and also managing projects, so I think some of the behavior is deflecting attention from her lack of results. I consider myself pretty easygoing and can get along with almost everyone, but this coworker is a real struggle for me. I tried reading “Mean Girls at Work” but only found it partially helpful. Our boss recognizes the problem but is tragically nonconfrontational, so I don’t think he’s going to fix anything.

    1. I read this NYT article years ago and it has helped me when the DRAMA at work was intense. It’s the one about how a writer is researching exotic animal training and learns to use the techniques on people. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/fashion/25love.html

      PS There have been times when I behaved like your terrible coworker, so I have seen this from both sides. I’m not proud of that but I was insecure and then angry that people noticed I was insecure.

    2. Oh my god if I didn’t know better I’d ask you if you worked in my office. FOLLOWING!

    3. If you’re not her manager, ignore her as much as possible and when ignoring isn’t possible, just do the whole smile and nod thing. Don’t engage unless it affects your work product and itlf it does, document, document, document.

  8. Watched too much news last night and now I’m fried re Kennedy, Roe etc. Anyone else. Ugh.

    1. I feel like a lot of us need to turn off the news for a bit and indulge in some trashy reality TV. I hear Say Yes to the Dress Atlanta is back! And have you seen Gordon Ramsey’s new show, 24 Hours to Hell and Back? It’s marvelous. Or maybe fictional brain candy like The Bold Type would work. I dunno, all I know is I’m too upset to focus on the complex storyline that is season 3 of Suits.

      Also, less CNN, more cat videos!

      1. I traveled yesterday and watched a Korean movie calls “I can speak” about an elderly Korean woman who learns English to testify about being a comfort woman to Japanese soldiers during the war. I was looking for an easy airplane movie to watch and it sucked me in. It was really good and made me want to be a better person. Highly recommended to get your mind off yeestersays news!!

    2. I recommend the Terrible Real Estate Photos blog.

      I too reached my news limit yesterday. I just can’t engage right now. Give it a week or so, I’ll be back in the game – passing out voter registrations, calling my representatives, etc. – but I just can’t at the moment.

    3. Same here. I recommend the show Nailed It on Netflix – it’s basically hilarious cake-baking fails.

      2. Current fave binge watch right there! New season comes out tomorrow, so plenty of cake fail material to lighten up the weekend.

    4. I agree with taking a break from listening/reading all the time.

      But when I feel like you do, I feel best after actually DOING something that makes an impact. Right now I’m focusing on nearby states that have elections that need my support since my state is very predictable. I donate some money, and I go to my next neighborhood political action / organization meeting.

      1. +1 I am so much less stressed about the national stuff that I can’t do much about (beyond what I’m already doing like voting, etc), now that I’ve gotten involved in local politics. I’m donating, canvassing, volunteering, hosting fundraisers, and joining the local political club. All of this ended up with me volunteering for the Ocasio-Cortez campaign, which I thought was a lost cause but a great way to send a message to our not-so-great representative. And look how that turned out – her victory didn’t make yesterday’s Supreme Court news any better, but it made it a lot easier to bear.

    5. I came on here to say the same. I feel incredibly privileged to be able to turn the TV off and switch NPR to something else, but also, I am really overwhelmed and concerned as we are in the process of petitioning for family to come to the US. I am a first-generation American, so this is really close to me, but also, I am in a position in life where it is not the end of the world and things will be okay.

      I am struggling to not feel outraged all of the time, particularly as it actually affects me directly, but also recognizing that I have a voice and I need to use it (and I do). I’m just tired. I used to love listening to NPR in the morning (StoryCorps, etc.), but I can’t stomach anything other than the classical NPR-adjacent station and mute it during the top-of-the-hour news bit.

      Thanks for letting me vent and I hope you are all taking care of yourselves!

  9. Any tourism recommendations for Medellin, Colombia?

    Going down for a wedding. It will probably just be DH and I touristing, although I suppose his parents or siblings might opt in.

    We like everything except resorts and huge crowds.

    2. It is very dangerous to go there. There is a drug cartell that is always in the news, so I would think twice about going there. I know you are going for a wedding, but you need to make sure you do not travel alone, day or night, b/c men have been known to do things to women that are not nice. FOOEY on them!

    3. I don’t have any recs, but a coworker goes here all the time (his wife is from there) and he is obsessed with it. He tells everyone that they must visit. It was gone up to the top of my list. Enjoy!!

  10. Does anyone have a recommendation for a sports bra that has some light sewn-in lining? I’m tired of bras with removable cups that add too much bulk and that get lost in the wash/misshapen. I’m a C-cup looking for light to moderate support for hiking.

    2. I have been looking for something similar and thought the champion curvy bra was ok.

    3. I’m not exactly sure what you are looking for, but I have a great sports bra from Athleta that looks a lot like a regular bra. No cups but double lined. I love it.

    4. Underarmour has some! I would toss them in a bra bag before washing because the lining is cotton (basically a sewn-in cup) and will not handle washing super well (gets broken up/lines).

    5. Champion Shaped T-Back Sport Bra is my HG sports bra and does exactly what you want. Amazing support. I did not care for the Champions Curvy.

    7. I have a few which fit the bill from Lucy. Mine are older but I think they would probably still have something lined.

  11. I am heading to NYC this weekend for a quick solo vacation and am looking for some specific advice:

    1. NY runners: is it generally safe to go for a run early in the morning? I’ll be staying in Tribeca. For context, I live in Chicago and run all over (most of) the city, so I’m used to that aspect, but just want to get a gauge on safety. Otherwise I’ll stick to to the hotel treadmill.

    2. OMG the heat. I was just planning on walking around different neighborhoods and popping in and out of shops/cafes, maybe checking out a museum. Am I going to melt? Any suggestions for more indoor-centric activities? Or should I just suck it up? Again, from Chicago so I’m used to hot and humid, but I generally stay inside or go to the beach on the grossest days. Any and all suggestions welcome for dealing with the heat!

    TIA!

    1. Absolutely safe. I run regularly at 5 am and my route usually takes me down to southport/tribeca area. You will see a lot of runners there especially in the summer when the day is longer.

      Re the heat. Yah, you pretty much have to deal with it. The subway is even worse. The good news is there is a lot to do indoors: museums, top of rock etc. You can then go grab a drink in a rooftop bar in the evening when it is cooler and nicer out.

    2. 1 – Near Tribeca? Definitely safe. Almost anywhere in Manhattan that isn’t deserted – which is almost anywhere except in the middle of central park – I would feel comfortable in early morning.
      2 – bring a light sweater or jacket wherever you go and prepare to alternate between sweltering (outside, subway platform) and freezing (inside subway car, inside museum., etc). Go to some of the many museums during the middle of the day and spend time walking around in the early morning and evenings – you’ll be fine. Keep in mind the Cloisters is not air conditioned, except the tapestry room. (I learned this the hard way).

      2. I run in the middle of Central Park early in the morning and it’s far from deserted. I’d recommend it if you want to have that experience, but there is an excellent running / bike path along the Hudson which would be super close to you. Running south you would get to Battery Park very quickly (& see the statute of liberty in the morning); running north you would go by Chelsea piers & the Intrepid & other small parks along the river.

        1. But do NOT go north of 96th street if you are running! Rosa went out running and she went around the resevoir, but she went north, and an old drunk grabbed her tush when she was going around the corner, and would not let go. She said it was awful b/c he smelled of cheap wine and she thought she was going to be really in trouble so she screamed “GET THE F*** OFF OF ME” and people came and he ran away. The police went lookeing for him but did NOT find him. If you run try and run with a MAN, but still, NOT above 96th street!

        2. Ha! Same thought about the park. At this time of year, Central Park is hopping in the early mornings!! Definitely never feel unsafe.

    3. How early are we talking? By 6 am I wouldn’t even worry — and probably earlier than that, just because it’s summer and it’s light out. Especially in Tribeca I don’t think you have cause for concern. I would have no hesitation about going out to the Hudson River park along the west side highway for a morning run.

      It’s going to be Real Hot, but I don’t think you need to change your plans substantially – just pick neighborhoods where you can duck into stores or coffee shops or restaurants every so often to get some sweet A/C. Museums have great A/C, too (except maybe the Tenement Museum; I haven’t been but that seems thematically appropriate). Avoid the subway if you can, and if you stick to neighborhoods near the water (Tribeca, West Village, Chelsea), you might get a bit of a breeze.

  12. DH and I recently bought a house, and are planning to convert a small bathroom into a master bathroom by adding the space that current is two closets. Two questions for you all: 1- would you recommend doing this before we move in (which requires extending the lease in our current apt by a month)? 2- as a new homeowner, I haven’t done any big renovations before. We are hiring a general contractor, etc, but how did you all go about designing the space? Pinterest? Browsing at a home depot type place? It feels a bit overwhelming!

    1. Have you had a contractor into the space yet? It sounds like you’ll be taking down walls and changing plumbing, which can be a much bigger project than it seems. I’d find that out first before you make a decision. Good luck!

    2. I’d do it before you move in if you can, it will be dusty and its just easier to not be there if you can afford it. You can just hire someone to do the work (ask your RE agent for recommendations, they usually have good ones) but I would also work with a bathroom designer. A lot of people who do kitchen design also do bathroom design so I’d google ask around for a kitchen designer as a place to start if bathroom designer comes up dry. Also ask your agent, they know so many people on the home space. I’d also go on Ointerest to get an idea of what you like. Show that to the bathroom designer, who will draw up plans for your contractor and source things for you (if you want, it I’d recommend it).

    3. First, yes, I’d extend your lease. Find your contractor and ask him questions about what you plan to do. For instance, my contractor told us that before we renovated our master bath that it would be cheapest/easiest to keep the toilet and water hookups where they were. He *could* move them, but it would easily add $10-$15k to the cost.
      Second – we did not use a bathroom designer, I asked our contractor to give us parameters of what would/would not work in the space w/r/t physical hookups and getting stuff in. We have a house from the 1800s, if I wanted a clawfoot tub (oh, and I did SOOO badly) we’d have to open up a wall and crane it in as our doors/hallways are simply too narrow. That would be about $20k. My husband gently pointed out I could have the world’s nicest most luxurious shower for about half of that.
      Third – figure out your overall aesthetic. Again, old house, so we went with a very old-fashioned classic design using fixtures/furniture/fittings in an Edwardian style. That limited us to certain vendors and made picking the style pretty easy. I also HIGHLY suggest going with a simple color scheme (black/white, white only, white/grey) and adding color through textiles or ONE high impact item (like a light fixture). It will look classic longer and make it easier for you to change up. Also – Pinterest is your new best friend!
      Enjoy!

    4. God yes, do it before you move in, but expect it to cost twice as much and take twice as long as the contractor predicts. Just go into it with that attitude and you will be much happier.

      1. +1 no one ever believes me when I tell them that the renovation will be 2x the cost and time estimated. I’m the Cassandra of home renovations.

      3. The best thing my mother ever taught me about home renovations was the existence of “Contractor Time”, which is doubling every time estimate ever given, from small to large.

        It greatly reduces stress and then sometimes you’re pleasantly surprised!

    5. My husband and I recently remodeled our bathroom (not our choice – we had a leaking pipe), and are planning a kitchen remodel next month. If you can afford it, I would do it before you move in. You could always try to live through it, provided that the room is well sealed and you have another bathroom, but it wouldn’t be my first choice.

      As for how to remodel it, design-wise, I think you can do a few things. 1) you can look for inspiration on pinterest, home depot’s website, interior design blogs (remodelista is a good one), etc. or 2) hire an interior designer, who will do that for you. Think about how you want your bathroom to feel.

      Our architect/general contractor (and a different plumber) told use that they estimate about $1,500 per fixture in the bathroom – so toilet, sink, tub, maybe a freestanding shower if you have one. I’m in NYC, so I don’t know if that price varies elsewhere.

      1. Oy, this sounds way low for those parts of a total bathroom redo. We only redid surfaces of a small bathroom with new fixtures and spent $12k in a similar COL city.

    6. If you can swing it, do it before you move in. You need a contractor to walk you through the timeline of everything. Also, depending on how much plumbing and electrical is happening, you may need permits, so don’t forget to factor that into your timeline.

    7. We just did this! We turned an unneeded bedroom into a master bath and closet. DEFINITELY do it before you move in. The converted room literally had no floor for a while – you could have jumped straight down into the basement. They did this because they had to run plumbing up and over from a basement bathroom. It was a BIG job, and everything was down to the studs. So not only was it a huge mess, it was a big hazard as well.

      We didn’t hire a designer. Our contractor had a computer program where he could lay everything out according to the local code (I didn’t realize there were rules as to how many inches you have on either side of the toilet!). He and I sat down together for a few hours and played with the layout and made some decision. We then went to his favorite tile/fixture supply store, and he walked me through different options at different price points. It was really helpful.

      Our contractor advised to us to keep 10-20% aside for unknowns. So if you have a max budget that you absolutely cannot exceed, hold a portion back. That ended up being fairly realistic in our situation (we were doing our kitchen too, and taking down other walls, so I don’t know how much of the overage was attributed only to the master bath). When he opened the walls to run the plumbing from the existing bathroom, we realized the existing plumbing was poorly done. A lot of it had to be fixed. I think it’s fair to assume that when opening walls, you’re likely to find something.

      Also, add a week or two to your planned timeline. Our contractor worked FAST. He had an entire crew with every type of trade, so he didn’t have to schedule subcontractors (which I understand to be a common reason for delays), but we still had delays. The added work I mentioned above created some delays. But other unexpected things, like our tub arrived damaged, so we had to order another. Of course it wasn’t a standard size, so it had to be made before it was shipped. Just right there, a two week delay. You may experience delays in getting permits as well. We couldn’t apply for permits until the house was in our name, and it took the city several days after closing to record the deed. So we just had to wait, which was frustrating with a tight timeline. Thankfully, my contractor knew the lady at the permit office pretty well, so she expedited everything once the deed was recorded. Definitely ask contractors about permits and the timing on those.

      Good luck!

  13. Say you have a sibling who is just obsessed about how wronged she was in her divorce [no question that things were not good — stayed home to raise 4 kids just to have doctor husband take up with a younger nurse he has since married; sibling was with him through the poor years and now at least he is paying a decent amount of support]. But this is year 4 of her being able to talk about nothing else (including in front of her kids).

    We want the cousins to visit this summer. I have a feeling that sibling will throw a fit / refuse outright if I say before hand “we are not talking about your ex or anything related to your divorce.” And it’s not like that will go over better with a wait and see approach.

    Just give up? Or try to see if she’ll let the kids come on their own (for a drama vacation, although I can’t call it that) for a week?

    Trying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Sibling needs someone she views as an authority figure to tell her that while people were initially sympathetic to her, she has burned just about all of the bridges she has (down to me and our parents right now).

    1. You know, when your life blows up four years doesn’t seem like a long time. Try being kinder or more empathetic- this is still fresh to her, she has a bunch of kids and is probably overwhelmed most of the time. If you can’t be nicer, spare her the visit.

      1. +1. This isn’t a semi-mutual “we grew apart and became friends instead of lovers” divorce. She supported this guy during medical school and residency (and financially supported the family during that time?), had a bunch of kids with him, stayed home to raise the kids and support his career and then he runs off with his younger employee? That’s horrible and I’d be upset about it 4 years later too. I think what she needs from her sister is support and empathy, not being told to get over it already.

        1. +1 to this and above. People don’t do well with others’ lasting anger because it’s uncomfortable to acknowledge that it’s justified. Step back from this situation, and it makes sense for her to still be furious 4 years later. Honestly I would expect her always, for the rest of her life, to hold some anger toward him. Even if she does her best to work through it. It’s just a horrible thing to happen. Everything from here on will be touched by it in some way.

          And by the way, it can happen to anyone. Imagine your family cutting you off if you were in her shoes.

          2. If the sister tends to be a verbal abuser, it may not be the case that there were any angels here.

            I know a ton of people in marriages that aren’t great (so they should work on and fix or just end it), but they just limp along esp. if they have kids. And then someone meets someone new and that is the catalyst for ending things (not that the marriage wasn’t on its deathbed already).

            Unless I was in the room, I don’t think I know all the facts, esp. when someone doesn’t seem to be an angel to begin with. Maybe they all have some mental health things going on, but if someone is verbally abusive to their family after a divorce, it’s not a big jump to see that they may not have been a prize before it.

          3. She did not say she was cutting her off; she’s just asking her not to talk about the divorce all the time. What sibling is doing is very harmful for her kids. She needs counseling to get some strategies to avoid bad mouthing her ex in front of the kids. When I got divorced, we all went through classes that were held at the same time but they separated the parents from each other and kids had classes (called something else) with kids the same age.

      2. I swear it’s not a matter of nicer — she is verbally abusive when you don’t want to discuss this (and she only and always wants to discuss this; not her kids, not the weather, not our family, etc.), don’t want it discussed around your own kids, don’t want to participate in bad-mouthing the dad in front of his kids.

        It’s like if she doesn’t 100% get her way with what she wants when she wants it, she will scorch the earth.

        She is generally so toxic that for months I’ve just texted back and forth (so she can send 20 texts a morning about what a bad person exBIL is, but I don’t need to respond / agree / engage). Most of our relatives screen her calls.

          1. THIS. Why not take the cousins off her hands for a few days and give her a spa certificate?

        2. So, are you being very serious about her actions, or is this a bit of hyperbole, as we are all prone to do?

          Because either she is severely mentally ill and you needs to help her get appropriate medical care (because yes, I have done this for a sibling too), or you are becoming sensitized so whenever she complains you can’t deal anymore? I have noticed that most of my peers who have had blessed lives without major illness/job loss/divorce are not the greatest at being supportive. I’m talking about the serious stuff.

          Obviously she needs help.

          1. I have no background in psychology, but doctor google has made her sound very much like a case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

            I think the problem is that she is stuck on 1) a phone shrink in another state she has never met in person (but who seems to have hours of time to indulge her) and 2) some marital reconciliation counseling that obviously did not work. I’ve never met the person in #1 but have a feeling that that is just not how counseling is supposed to go and that something is very wrong but b/c of #1 I feel that she is stuck where she is. She has been phoning him constantly over the past 4 years and I have no idea how she even found him. Not knowing anything other than how she recounts their convos, something just seems to be very off and wrong there.

          2. So I don’t know what you mean by a “phone shrink”, which is a very unflattering way to describe medical care and tells me a lot about you…. Anyway, is she seeing a psychiatrist that can prescribe medication for her depression? Does she have a counselor who specializes in depression/relationship issues?

            She might also do very well in a support group, where others who have gone through similar divorces give their input. Those can be hard to find, but some online groups exist too.

          3. I don’t really know anything about this phone person. I know counselors can legitimately work telephonically, but this seems not quite right to me. And it just seems that if you live in a city and yet choose counseling that is phone-only due to distance and that person seems to be available to have lengthy (1-hr+) convos with you with no notice multiple time a week for years, it might not be legit? Or maybe he likes having a relationship with her?

            I’m not sure how you even really know if the person has any credentials. It just doesn’t seem quite right based on what I’ve read about counseling. It seems very . . . co-dependent? Maybe there are counselors / psychologists to just let people rant and vent like this, but it seems like their value is to offer up insight / guidance / direction (who knows? perhaps he does?).

            She also claims that he has conclusively diagnosed my exBIL as a narcissist, which seems to not be what counselors do, either.

            I guess she has found an echo chamber that suits her, so I doubt she will ever escape it.

        3. Would she respond any better to a time limit on exBIL coversations? Like, “let’s limit discussions of how terrible your ex is to 30 minutes a day, because I want to focus on my relationship with you and the kids!” Guessing not, given what you’ve written so far, but perhaps worth a try?

          Also, I might try phrasing it as, “Letting him dominate our relationship is letting him win, the best revenge is living well, etc.” She sounds like she hates him (and perhaps rightly so), so getting her to reframe it in a way where she’s scoring a point against him by not talking about him so much might possibly resonate? Although again, she doesn’t sound particularly rational on the subject, so probably not.

          Otherwise, I think you just have to have a bright line rule that you won’t talk about it (or won’t talk when any kids are present). And to enforce that rule, you have to make sure that things are set up in such a way that you aren’t trapped together with her. This probably means she can’t stay in your house. I’d see if the kids can come on their own; if she’s not down with that, it sounds like you are going to have to have a painful conversation. I’m sorry.

          1. I did that when I had guests when I was right in the thick of my divorce. We set a limit of 10 minutes at a time of divorce talk. It was fine and we laughed and said I ended the visit with time left on the clock.

            It does require good will on both sides of the conversation, though, which seems to be absent here.

          2. This was going to be my suggestion, too. I remember reading the time-limit rule of Senior Attorney before. And the “don’t let him win by ruling your life” approach seems like a really good one to me.

      3. +1

        Your poor sister. Her poor kids, that I suspect would love to visit you and have you take some of Mom’s depression off their shoulders.

        No, you cannot say that to your sister. Please.

        I would work on my own coping skills/stress release/meditation. Try to organize outings for when the kids are there that keep you guys distracted. Practice saying, “Can we take a little break from the (awful ex-husband) talk for a little while. I think we both need it…. Hey, let’s watch/do/see/play…..”

        And keep encouraging her to continue with therapy, and to make inroads into her future education/career. The sooner she starts supporting herself with something that gives her confidence and self-respect, the stronger she will become.

        Don’t cut her off. Please don’t. Don’t tell her that now her parents can’t stand her either. Please.

        I have a friend like your sister. It is so awful, what she has gone through…. and hopefully we will never experience it. It’s not like getting diagnosed with life ending cancer, or losing a child, but it is probably the worst thing that she has experienced in her life and worse than anything you have.

        1. eh, her situation is unfortunate, but this is not an astonishingly bad experience worse than anything others have experienced …

          1. It’s pretty bad, and divorce is one of life’s worst experiences. I agree it’s not death of your spouse (which in some ways, is a cleaner recovery) or yourself or your child. But Divorce with 4 young kids, after supporting your husband through his medical training (long time! 8 years at least for most), then being left for young nurse is what soap operas are made of.

            From your dismissive comment I assume you’ve been through much worse? If so, I would think you would be more sympathetic. I’ve been through worse, but this is still quite bad, and she will likely never really recover.

          2. I have a cousin who had a child killed by a drunk driver. She could easily have been consumed by this — going to the guy’s hearings, showing up at his house, writing to his relatives, doing everything she could to ruin the life of the person who had taken her son’s life and ruined her life.

            I totally see how this could happen and I’m sure it does. And yet she was blessed to not get stuck there. She sees it as that she still had a choice — to let tragedy consume her or to continue living so that her son would be proud of her.

            Bad sh*t has happened to me. Awful, awful stuff, each with a very long tail. I made similar choices and they weren’t easy or quick, but I chose not to lose quality in the rest of my life over the bad stuff that had happened to me (starting with getting molested as a child by a family friend who was around through adolescence).

          3. I disagree. Myself and most of my friends have had some routine struggles (moderately amicable divorces, children/spouse health problems, care of aging parents, money issues), but this specific scenario where she supported the husband through years of education and then he becomes wealthy and runs off with his nurse leaving her with 4 young children, seems startlingly awful to me. I don’t know anyone who has been through something this difficult. Obviously there are objectively worse things (losing a child comes to mind) but this is not really a routine “oh we all have problems, no one’s life is perfect” kind of thing.

          4. Sorry, just trying to point out that it’s not helpful to assume that the poster hasn’t experienced something as difficult. Yes, it is a traumatic experience and we should have sympathy for the sister. But it’s also not unreasonable to consider that too much ruminating is not helpful, or that years of therapy should move a person forward in recovery, or that exposing children to all of this negativity is undesirable. I think expressing concern for the sister (that this is not healthy for her) and letting her know there’s a limit to how much you can listen to/expose your children to is completely reasonable. Maybe a refusal to listen to her will eventually push her in a healthier direction, like getting support elsewhere or forcing herself to take a break from ruminating. Will it be pleasant? No. But things are already unpleasant.

          5. Anonymous at 12:20, Do you really think “she will likely never really recover?” I think a person might have some lasting difficulties (financially or in taking longer to trust people, etc.), but I believe a person can recover … certainly so that it’s not such a focus of everyday life anymore.

          6. I actually do believe she will never really recover. She can certainly become more functional over time, but people who have this painful a post-divorce period with likely mental illness superimposed often to the most poorly long term. It can be so scarring that man will fall into bitterness. Sometimes it is not hard to blame them…. especially if the relationship started when she was quite young.

            And we know how difficult it is to find another partner and remarry (if she would even want that) as a woman when you have 4 young kids and no independent career. And how difficult it is to start again with a career. When you have 4 young kids.

      4. What on earth? In what world is it OK for one parent to trash talk the other to their kids??? I’m very sorry for what happened to sister, that’s awful, but that’s still their father and she shouldn’t be turning the kids against him. She’s hurting the kids, not just him.

        If the genders were reversed I doubt this board would be so sympathetic to a father who did everything in his power to make a mother’s children hate her because she met the love of her life when she was already married. In fact there have been posts here to that effect before and everyone was on mom’s side.

        1. If the OP spoke with more empathy towards her sister, maybe responses would be different? I’m not sure I trust the OPs interpretation of the situation…

          1. It’s not that I don’t have empathy and sympathy. I’m so, so tired of her verbal abuse.

            I guess that’s probably the takeaway — either you walk on eggshells when you are around her and hope that she doesn’t blow her stack when you don’t do everything she wants exactly when and as she wants it or you just stay away. It really may be just that simple.

            After years of trying to stay engaged, maybe when someone keeps showing me who she is, I should be believe her.

          2. If it had been four years, I — like OP — would be running low on empathy. If the situation is at OP describes, I believe any of us in it would be wishing family member could resolve some struggle and find some peace. Four years is a LONG TIME to be in this level of disgust / despair / anger / toxicity with no movement toward peace.

        2. “The love of [his] life”??? Are you the nurse?
          He will do the same thing to the side piece, they always do.

          1. Actually they really, really don’t. I know a fair number of people who met spouse #2 while married to spouse #1. At least three who come to mind who have now been married to spouse #2 (by all appearances happily and faithfully) for anywhere from 10 to 50 years. In fact, I just attended the 50th anniversary party for one of them – where the first spouse and mother of the first two children showed up to congratulate the couple. Because she is an actual responsible adult who put her obligations to her children first and learned to get over it and move on.

            Sometimes people marry too young or just grow into different people. The fact that sister supported him through school and had his children no more obligates her husband to stay with her forever than it obligates anyone. (And he is apparently paying his support obligations.) Given how often people on this board encourage unhappy women with children to get divorced, the completely different response when it is a man is astonishing.

            And as the kid with a parent who constantly criticized and bad-mouthed the other parent after the divorce – the OP is completely correct that her sister is completely out of line and someone needs to call her on the damage she is doing.

    2. You post a lot about your sister. Have you talked to a therapist yet to try to get some professional, impartial advice? Obviously we can’t substitute for that, and leave you feeling very lost.

        1. Yeah, I’ve heard this OP talk about this sister before, post-divorce to MD with 4 kids etc… Seems like it is ongoing of course and hard to deal with.

    3. If it’s a short trip to hang out with her kids, why can’t you just indulge her. Let her vent when the kids aren’t in earshot. When they are just say “oh, Jane can hear us let’s hit pause.” I get that you don’t like talking about this but I really don’t see how it harms you to do it for one week a year, if you are otherwise screening her calls/texts. She might just need some validation. What he did is pretty horrible. Acknowledge it!

      My parents are getting fairly elderly and they like to tell me the same stories over and over. I’ve heard them 100 times. Yet, it makes them happy so I sit there, sip a cup of tea or a glass of wine and I just listen.

      1. +1

        Exactly.

        Just listen. Breathe/meditate while you do. Practice saying that sucks. I’m so sorry. Don’t give her advice.

      3. I think the issue from OP’s description is that sister isn’t hitting pause in front of the kids. Including OP’s kids.

        1. That’s right.

          I wouldn’t like the venting if it were just to me, but it is vile trash-talking and I do not want my children to be around that. And while I don’t tell other people how to raise their kids, every time I’ve notice one of hers in the room and have said “Oh, Janie just walked in” as a cut to STFU, I get a mouthful that I don’t get to tell her what to do (which is technically correct, but she showed me her divorce decree which has the usual order for her not to do this, so she just does not care).

          1. What I would do is just set out the rules (once she’s in your house) and deal with her anger. “Sister, in my house you cannot trash talk about exBIL in front of my kids, and I would appreciate it if you didn’t do so in front of your kids while you’re in my house. We can have a venting session about him later after the kids have gone to bed, or we can do it outside the presence of the kids, but not in front of them.”

            Here’s the thing, she has a lot of anger, it’s unresolved, and it’s going to stay that way for a while because it was both a traumatic event and she doesn’t seem to be coping well. But you can lay out the ground rules for what happens in your own home.

            And if she freaks out and yells at you…. well, 1) so what?, and 2) tell her that she’s being abusive toward you and that you want her to stop. Tell her that you love her and you’re sympathetic but that she cannot take out her anger at exBIL and her situation on you. And if she gets really out of control, tell her that she’s ruining the relationship between the two of you and you’d like to be able to be friends.

          2. Re not talking about it in front of her kids. You can’t censor her but you can control what conversations YOU have in front of kids. It’s a lost cause and understandably offensive to tell her how to parent her own children (even though you’re right). BUT. It’s totally fair for you to say, I am not comfortable being part of this conversation in front of any kids including yours. Which means when she starts, you walk out of the room.

            Which of course means you can never invite her to stay at your home and you can never share, say, a beach house with her. You always have to have separate accommodations so you can walk away when you need to.

          3. Sadly, I agree with this last para above.

            We tried a joint visit after a parent had recovered from cancer and rather than stay with her (I was truly worried she’d kick us out in the middle of the night) I paid for all of us to go to a nature preserve where we could all stay in separate cabin (and we drove in separate cars).

          4. Yes, trash talking in front of the kids is terrible. I posted about that above. I don’t know why people are so harsh on you. I must have missed some of the facts or others are reading a lot into this situation. We don’t know all the kids are “little” and we certainly don’t know ex is not providing financial support.

        2. it also seems that the sister is not willing to hit pause, and becomes angry when someone suggest that she does. This is an issue.

    4. What has she said when you’ve specifically told her she can’t talk about her ex in front of your kids? Does she say that you’re not being supportive, etc.? If you’ve already talked to her about it and she refuses to see that this is inappropriate then I’m not sure what else you can do.

      It’s fine to invite the kids without inviting her. Just offer to take the kids off her hands for a week or whatever. Maybe your parents can take the kids for one weekend and you can visit sister to let her vent to just you with no kids around. Make it a spa weekend or something so you can just say mmhmm I’m so sorry he sucks while doing something enjoyable.

    5. I’m kinda stunned by the viewpoints here. Heck no, I wouldn’t want to hang out with her, either.

      After four years, it’s actually concerning that this is still a point of driving rage for her. (Milder emotions, sure, but being incapable of NOT talking about it? That’s not ok.) I get that this entire situation is awful, but does she want to essentially stop time in 2014 and never enjoy life again, does she want to actually be present with her kids without her ex in her mind?

      I’d be super firm with her. “Sis, look. ENOUGH. Get some therapy. Get an anti-depressant. Do something, but you aren’t going to come into my house with all that hate in your heart. Your kids deserve a happy, present mother, and your anger – however well justified – is toxic. Let me know if I can do anything specific to help you move on, but I will not be party to *itch sessions anymore.”

      1. I totally agree. I have an aunt who has been doing this for over TWENTY years (similar scenario with uncle leaving her for somebody younger) and it is absolutely exhausting and now we all avoid her. Yes, divorce is traumatic and that situation is terribly unfair, but for her own mental health and the sake of her kids, her sister needs to move past the angry phase. Four years is enough time that she can certainly vent periodically about divorce frustrations when the kids aren’t around, but to be this obsessed and angry is not normal or okay, and I’m really wondering about the posters who think OP isn’t being accommodating enough of her sister.

        Last weekend I went to a baby shower for a friend whose MIL is like OP’s sister 15 years down the line. MIL and FIL were both there, and of course FIL was there with his wife of 10 years (who had nothing to do with the dissolution of their marriage), and all MIL would do all day was glower in a corner and vent to anybody in earshot. It was my first time meeting her and the within a few minutes of conversation, I was getting an earful about how awful FIL was. I know from friend that FIL left MIL, but man, you have to move on with your life at some point because otherwise you’re allowing your life to be ruined. Everybody experiences some kind of trauma or injustice in their life. It’s how you deal with it that matters.

      2. I’m surprised, too. Four years is a very long time to still have that much rage! I don’t think OP is being unsympathetic at all.

      3. Look. This sounds like it was a bad divorce. Okay. Bad stuff happens to a lot of people. You decide if you’re going to be possessed by your anger and hurt for the rest of your life, or if you’re going to take your life back and move on. Four years later, the level of anger the OP describes isn’t normal or healthy, even for someone who went through a terrible divorce.

        I went through an awful, shocking divorce. And it quickly became apparent to me that no matter how much I wanted to punish my ex-husband, the best punishment was not caring about him anymore. It’s been six years and I feel entirely indifferent to him. I mean, I have to think hard to even remember his middle name.

        The thing about this kind of anger is that after a while, anger feels safe. The OP’s sister knows how to feel angry. Letting go of that and truly moving on is likely terrifying to her, because that’s a whole new world, and she doesn’t know how to live in it. Her ex-husband is still the most important person in her life. Until she decides that she’s releasing the anger and moving on, he will continue to be. Letting go of anger doesn’t mean forgiving or excusing. It just means letting it go. Deciding not to live in it anymore. Deciding that this won’t define you for the rest of your life.

        OP, if you haven’t already, I think that’s the conversation you need to have with your sister. Tell her your love her. Tell her that you want her to be free of this anger, because she deserves the better, happier life that she can’t have until she releases it. Tell her that it doesn’t seem like it’s getting better. And then ask her if she feels the same way. Ask her if she feels like she is making emotional progress in working through this.

        It’s fine to give her the “we are not talking about this at my house” conversation, but I’d try first ground this in love and caring for her. Because the way she’s living now isn’t just irritating for you to deal with – it’s really bad for her as well.

        1. This is really great advice. Your script is excellent, and is the most empathic way I could think of in addressing this.

          Way to go anon. I’m sorry you had to live through such an experience. Thanks for telling us how it’s done.

    6. I think that firmness and kindness is a hard balance to strike, but I think it’s still worthwhile to try. Perhaps: “Agnetha, I love you, and I miss being able to talk to you about our lives outside of your divorce.” Or, if she brings up that people seem less supportive, tell her that it’s hard to be in contact with someone who only wants to talk about their One Thing: whether it’s a grievance, the Knicks, or the mating habits of squirrels.

    7. I’ve had this situation before, and admire you for sticking with it as long as you have. No one is doing this sibling a favor by letting her think that there is a perpetual audience for her anger and bitterness, and she is actively harming her remaining relationships, which is going to be the worst possible thing in the world for her. Her situation totally sucks. Check. At some point, she needs to focus on rebuilding her life, and if you can couch your message to her with love and support, you will be doing her a favor. I’ve been in your shoes, and had to duck calls b/c I simply simply simply cannot listen yet one more time. They don’t want help or advice; they just want an infinite ear and total agreement that their ex is a total d i r t b a g. And they need that reinforcement constantly. Time to begin gently messaging her that you love and support her, and in that spirit, she has got to begin the painful steps of moving past this.

  14. Anyone else feel like the Democrats are going to completely blow it in 2020? We have this nightmare presidency unfolding before us and I have no idea what policies Democrats support, what candidates they support, and they are going through some upheavals they apparently did not expect at all (see the Democratic primary in NY). They blew it in 2016 and I’m terrified they will again.

    1. And to add to it, the Democrats seem totally flat-footed and like they’re not playing the same game as Republicans. They’re civil when they shouldn’t be, antagonistic when they shouldn’t be, and just all around clumsy and inept. I have no idea who they will put forth in 2020.

    2. Yep. Democrats have had a message problem for years and don’t see to be doing anything to improve on it. Argh. On the other hand, it’s a long time to 2020 in political time.

    3. I thought H blew it with her VP pick (my $ was on Julian Castro). Absent some savior showing up, IDK who to even handicap as people who will run (and maybe anyone with any sense would not run in 2020 but wait until 2024).

      Considering who that person would be running against, this shouldn’t even be HARD and yet I think it will be a giant fail.

      And Bernie — dude, stay away.

      1. Right. And as much as it really, really pains me to say this – the candidate should probably be a white male (not Bernie). 2020 is about winning and people have shown their reluctance to vote for a (highly qualified) woman, and as much support as Obama received, I wonder if another minority male (Cory Booker, perhaps) would get the same type of support. And sadly, I don’t see a woman like Kamala Harris or even Elizabeth Warren standing a chance.

        1. I don’t think this is true at all. Every time democrats try to “figure it out” they lose. Look at Kerry/Edwards. They nominated a war hero and southern charmer (that was the thinking back then with Edwards) and it failed spectacularly. Arguably, the problem with HRC is that the party again tried to dictate a winning candidate for the country when in that moment the country wasn’t into it. That breaks my heart, of course, because I think both HRC and Kerry were supremely well qualified for the job, but that is beside the point. We should just let the process sort this out. You can’t “game” the system with this.

        2. I’m hoping Andrew Cuomo, governor of NY, will run. He’s my only hope. He’s great, from a storied political family, and his kids are 1/2 Kennedy.

          1. LOL, I thought Democrats were supposed to erase the “old money rules” axiom. And you just mentioned breeding twice.

          2. Bet you regular folks will think of Cuomo as too much of an old political family. Though maybe not – how many people in Indiana know or care that his father was governor?

          3. Fwiw I’m in Indiana :) and I know Cuomo is from a political family. I also know he’s pretty moderate, and although I’m generally fine with it, most Dems I know around here are a lot more progessive Bernie-types and they wouldn’t go for Cuomo. Sadly, I think to win the Democrats need a unicorn candidate who moderates are comfortable voting for but who progressives can get excited about it (I think it’s ridiculous that progressives can’t get on board with voting for a moderate Dem but it is what it is).

          4. Nyer here. I think Cuomo’s having too much trouble here in ny to be the right pick. He’s being primary-ed by a nyc celeb who makes a valid point about the mta being a mess. Also, he has the scent of two generations of establishment, if not corruption all over him.

            That said, since 2016 I’ve been fantasizing about him debating Trump. He’s got this very no nonsense way of talking that i find very intimidating. None of the crap trump pulled with Hillary would have worked againt him.

            (Not a knock on hrc; more an observation that Cuomo wins the masculine anger thing against trump.)

          5. Are you kidding me? I live in NY, and outside of Westchester, our state is an absolute s-hole and he has done nothing but make it worse. Everyone hates him. I feel like doing a documentary on how awful it is here so that people who don’t live in this state don’t believe the lies he tells and the commercials he runs everywhere on our dime.

      2. Meh. In 2006 no one thought Obama would be president 2 years later.

        What concerns me is that we seem to have two parties that are playing by very different rules and a democratic base who is still willing to let great be the enemy of good. Republicans, to their credit, are much better at falling in line and voting their party for bigger issues like Supreme Court, etc., that will have an impact for years to come. Democrats are fine with staying home because they don’t feel excited. I also worry about the cynicism that is making people tune out. But thinking to 2005-6 and how hopeless that felt does make me feel better.

        2. I was an R in 2004 when Obama spoke to the DNC and I knew that he had nailed it and felt like my $ would have been on him. And I see no one with that sort of spark right now.

    4. Yes. 2020 isn’t far at all — only 2.5 years left and we’re STILL hearing about 80 year old Biden and Bernie. They seem to have forgotten when Obama and Clinton took the presidency it wasn’t because they had 100 years of experience, it was because they were seen as smart enough with new, young charisma. Apparently Dems don’t have that or are hiding it really well. What’s so terrible about an experienced but smart guy – Joe Kennedy, Conor Lamb or someone maybe 5 years older than them so they have some experience?

      Personally I think they’ll put up a socialist from the Bernie wing – just looking at the excitement surrounding that 28 year old in Queens. At which point I will be voting for Trump — walls, travel bans, Roe or not; there’s no way I’m voting for people who want my hard earned money to pay for others’ free college and who are anti Wall Street.

      1. TL;DR: “I got mine, screw you! Have fun bearing a child you don’t want!”

        But we’re supposed to believe that trumpies are the Poor Downtrodden Forgotten Middle Americans who just want their Way of Life back!

    5. I kind of think they’re going to blow it, but two years is also a pretty long time.

      Jeremy McClellan recently said on Twitter that you can predict who’s going to win (not decide whom to vote for!) by who’s having the most fun. DJT’s supporters were having a blast at his rallies, but HRC’s supporters seemed to be varying combinations of resigned and dour. Ocasio-Cortez’s campaign was also a ton of fun! She had a van drive around blaring “Despacito” while her opponent was apparently trying to catfish voters on Tinder???? This is my new kinda-superficial bellweather, and the far left seems to be having way more fun than the Dem establishment. If that trend continues I’ll put way more money on a Dem POTUS in 2020 (it would also be a campaign of internet memes, so good luck to future historians!).

      2. Thanks for posting that’s an interesting take! I always feel like the winning candidate is a reaction to the incumbent.

        I don’t know who that is right now but I’d like to see a Democratic nominee who is young and feels honest. I think the right tone is a sober appeal to our higher moral aspirations and a frank economic conversion about the growing wealth gap. I like jason kandor’s tone and message but I’m skeptical as to his viability given his lack of experience. Sadly, I agree we need a white man.

        1. For what it’s worth, Kander is running for mayor of Kansas City, MO. So I think he agrees with you that he needs more experience :). It also probably means he’s thinking later than 2020.

          2. I LOVE Jason Kander but am so glad he’s not running for President in 2020. He’ll be a fantastic candidate in 2024 (or 2028 if we’re lucky enough to get a Dem in 2020).

    6. Yeah, I’m moderate-left and frustrated that the Democratic party seems to be moving more left rather than more moderate. The super progressive wing of the party is never going to win an election because they are too focused on identity politics. It’s also frustrating to me that my super liberal friends don’t seem to get that the social justice warrior jargon is extremely off-putting to the majority of the country, regardless of whether people agree with the underlying concepts.

      Bottom line is I’d like to see more focus on the economy, immigration, healthcare, education, social security, and other core issues as opposed to focusing on culture war type stuff. For example, I am all in favor of transgender bathroom access but am confused that Democrats were putting it front and center as a topline national issue when there are a LOT of other, much bigger issues that Democrats need to be leading on.

      1. This is really thoughtful.

        I also wonder what we’re doing with the reluctant and/or remorseful trump voter. There needs to be a conversation about how trump duped his voters so they can save face here. Moving our rhetoric dramatically left just further radicalizes them.

        1. Most reluctant Trump voters are thrilled with their choice. Economic gains, tax cuts, good judges, and fighting the culture war.

          1. I think btwn kids in cages and soybean tariffs there may be some regretful trumpers.

        2. I think there’s also a contingent of voters who just wanted someone “anti-establishment,” although I don’t know how large a contingent or how likely they are to really turn out. I remember chatting with a lot of college-age people whose preferences were #1 Bernie, #2-3 Trump and Gary Johnson (in either order), and then #4 “Jill Stein, I guess.” That’s not a policy-based stance; it’s either a vague desire for an outsider vibe or a really strong dislike of Clinton, and they didn’t seem to have very strong feelings about Clinton except as an insider. So a far-left candidate would help with those voters, although again, I have no idea how significant a group these people are.

      2. I disagree to some extent – I think the Democrats need to push some actual progressive proposals. Instead they’re taking boring, moderate positions on everything, but then losing to Republicans who a) have fairly similar policy positions/donors and b) do not hammer the identity politics nonstop.

        What I can’t stand is that the Democrats are oh so civil when it comes to playing hardball in Congress, but then they’re all “deplorables!” and “support transgender bathroom access or you’re a terrible bigot!!” when talking to voters. Do they WANT to hand the election to Trump no contest?

        1. But you have to realize that most of the country doesn’t agree with the issues on which Dems wage culture wars. In middle America, regular people don’t want men who feel they are ladies in their bathroom. We don’t particularly care if a baker won’t bake for Joe and Rob’s wedding; its bad enough Joe and Rob can get married, if they’re inconvenienced, it is what it is.

          1. Yes yes yes we KNOW you don’t care about discrimination. We know. How is this a persuasive argument?

            Now, we wish that YOU would understand that it’s not Dems waging these culture wars. Pop quiz: who brought the Masterpiece Cakeshop lawsuit all the way to SCOTUS to make a point? Which party passed bathroom bills? Which party passes laws restricting abortion? Dems/liberals just want you to leave us alone and let us live our lives. We’re not trying to make you gay or make you have abortions or make you transgender. You have every right to try to make these arguments and make your prejudices policy, but please don’t blame democrats for waging the culture wars because *you* don’t like how society is changing.

          2. “men who feel they are ladies”

            Interesting choice of language. I’d counter that the right are the ones making a big deal out of a non-issue in bathroom use. Just let people use the bathroom they prefer. It’s really NBD and has no impact on your life. Easy!

          3. It’s a persuasive argument because normal people in most of the country hear this stuff and say ew and are automatically turned off no matter who the Dem is. Even if GOP is baiting, can’t you not take the bait or maybe say – nah we’re not THAT into gay rights either? But no you all take it so far re gays etc that normal people outside of big cities are utterly turned off.

          4. It’s dismissive to people with real concerns to say “you’re a bigot” or “trans bathroom access doesn’t affect you.” You are not acknowledging that women and girls around the country do not feel comfortable with tall males with beards using the women’s bathroom based on nothing more than their internal feelings. Keep dismissing it, keep putting women last, and Trump will keep winning.

          5. “men who feel they are ladies”

            I think the poster was just saying this is how more than 50% of America thinks. And we’re not going to get them on board if we keep focusing on culture war issues.

          6. ” You are not acknowledging that women and girls around the country do not feel comfortable with tall males with beards using the women’s bathroom based on nothing more than their internal feelings. ”

            This is a completely inaccurate representation of what’s going on. You *are* a bigot. You just are– this sentence proves it. And, if you’re so concerned about women being groped, then WHY ELECT TRUMP? (Oh right! Because you’re not concerned about that!)

            “Even if GOP is baiting, can’t you not take the bait or maybe say – nah we’re not THAT into gay rights either?”

            Um…just throw LGBT people under the bus? Do something morally wrong by abandoning them?…. just no. That’s what repubs want. Force dems into “putting social issues front and center” or failing to protect their constituents. We see the strategy! We get it!

          7. “Pop quiz: who brought the Masterpiece Cakeshop lawsuit all the way to SCOTUS to make a point?”

            Lady, you’re a mental case.

            You’re basically saying that anyone who is wronged, has his business ruined, is discriminated against, and fights to the Supreme Court for justice – while the other side couldn’t just go to another bakery – is the bad actor.

          8. A mental case? Okay. Sure. Classy.

            He was not discriminated against.

            His business was ruined by “the market,” right? Isn’t that what conservatives always want? For the market to take care of these things rather than the heavy hand of government?

            He discriminated. He refused to serve a gay couple despite clear state law prohibiting discrimination. Full stop. He was wrong. The Gays didn’t bring this lawsuit against him. They aren’t “the other side.” You are very confused. The State of Colorado investigated and pursued administrative action against him, and then Alliance Defending Freedom used him to try to make new precedent. I don’t feel bad for him.

            I did not assert or imply that his lawsuit made him a bad actor. You are lying to misrepresent what I said. I only brought that up in response to another poster who accused democrats of waging culture wars. The fact of the matter is that the baker brought this suit– not liberals. Get it?

          9. Nice try, nasty woman, but I voted for Hillary. I just believe women when they say they fear men. #metoo is real, isn’t it? Or is that just for progressive women?

          10. Nope. Not taking your bait, Anon at 3:00.

            Maybe you can spend the rest of your afternoon searching for a single example of a woman being preyed upon by a transgender man in a bathroom.

          12. I feel like this subthread is a perfect example of the problem with our politics today. Republicans are so, so skilled at baiting and Democrats can’t help but take the bait. Republicans twist and misrepresent the truth, or divert the conversation to something else, and they’re so skilled at it. For as dumb as Trump seems, he has managed to distract everyone from the fact that he likely colluded with Russia, is making nice with authoritarian dictators, and is absolutely destroying our relationships with our allies. I don’t want Dems to fight dirty, but we have to figure out a different way to engage – we are never going to win an argument when the other side is so intellectually dishonest and morally bankrupt.

          13. In NY, there are now single stall restrooms everywhere. Problem is, when the lock is broken, you can be walked in on by a man. This is my biggest issue with the bathroom policy, as this happened to me in TJs. I don’t even know how I still show my face there after some have seen my arse. Yes, I’m very serious.

      3. Dems weren’t putting transgender bathroom access front and center. Republicans were passing these bills to rile up their bases. It’s the same thing they did with gay marriage in the 90s. Dems responded. Repubs pointed fingers and said “look at these dems! wanting to let creeps molest your women and children! We’re trying to save women! All the sudden we don’t like people groping women!! See, libruls are too busy caring about identity politics rather than The Economy!” Basically, republicans bait democrats/ liberals, who give in, and then we all waste time on this nonsense.

        2. Can’t not take the bait? Can’t distance yourself from the precious gays? Then you deserve to be called out on how you focus on their rights rather than the economy because you all do waste a lot of air time making everyone feel included.

          1. …the precious gays? WTF is the matter with you?

            Yeah, no, dems shouldn’t just abandon people to attacks by bigots. Republicans are doing something wrong- not dems who are standing up for LGBT people. My god, can’t republicans take responsibility for ANYTHING? You’re not doing anything to help the perception that trumpies aren’t just horrid bigots.

        3. They did so in Massachusetts and Charlotte, which kicked off the bathroom bills nationwide.

          1. Yes. Cities passed basic non-discrimination ordinances and then conservatives blew this up–focusing on bathrooms– to a national tragedy. I’d love if you’d explain to me why you elected trump, noted woman-groper, if you’re so concerned about women being molested?? I look forward to your well-reasoned response.

          2. In CLT, the bathroom bill was put forward and passed by our D-controlled city council. It wasn’t a R thing at all. And it cost Jennifer Roberts a second term as mayor.

          3. You do realize that the Charlotte ordinance was broader than just the bathroom access part, right? That’s all I’m trying to say– it was Republicans who made this into such a huge freaking national issue. They picked up on one part of a broad non-discrimination ordinance, and then lost their minds, seeing it as a good wedge issue. Not just republican politicians, but conservatives in general. Spend a bit of time on some evangelical s1tes- they went absolutely ballistic and still haven’t calmed down. Charlotte didn’t put forward any bathroom bill– bills are state level. (How’d that work out for NC, btw?) When people use the term “bathroom bill” they’re talking about the state-level bills that were implemented to overturn non-discrimination ordinances. The NC bathroom bill went far, far beyond simply nullifying the ‘problematic’ provision of the Charlotte ordinance.

      4. Yeah, I think the Dems’ best selling point is going to be economic issues, and immigration if they can figure out a really clear plan that’s not just “f— Trump” and not too radical, whatever that means in two years (I would be surprised if “abolish ICE” were a viable plank on the national level but I wouldn’t entirely rule it out). They’ve sort of burned out their culture war effort, in my estimation.

          1. I think the calculus changes towards Dems if we fall into a recession in the next 2.5 years. We are due — it has been 9 years. I feel like recessions always cause a flip in the White House — like with Clinton’s “it’s the economy stupid.” At that point Dems need a white male with a heat beat isn’t a socialist.

    7. My money is on Beto O’Rourke (currently contesting Ted Cruz) for 2020. He checks the white male box (which I sadly agree is necessary this time around). And he seems to be focused on reaching those who feel ignored by the government by traveling to every county in Texas and putting forth a moderate-friendly campaign. I think that the Bernie crowd would rally behind him as well because he’s refusing to take PAC money and he’s young and energetic.

      1. He’s my first thought too but if he wins he will have been a senator for what 2 years? Isn’t that even less than Obama?

        2. Yes, Obama was elected for President four years after he won his Senate race. O’Rourke would be running just two years after. I don’t see lack of experience as an obstacle to electability in 2020 though, since one of the goals is to pull in those who were comfortable voting for Trump in 2016 (or at least didn’t think that Trump was to be avoided). In fact, the pessimist in me sees less experience as a benefit because it means that the candidate has had fewer opportunities to do something that can be turned into a soundbite and used against him/her.

        3. Trying again since this one has been stuck in mod for even longer than my initial comment was….

          Yes, Obama was elected for President four years after he won his Senate race. O’Rourke would be running just two years after. I don’t see lack of experience as an obstacle to electability in 2020 though, since one of the goals is to pull in those who were comfortable voting for Trump in 2016 (or at least didn’t think that Trump was to be avoided). In fact, the pessimist in me sees less experience as a benefit because it means that the candidate has had fewer opportunities to do something that can be turned into a soundbite and used against him/her.

    8. It’ll be a Bernie type like the woman who won in Queens at which point I will be voting for DJT or a GOP challenger if we’re lucky to get one because a socialist doesn’t serve my financial interest.

      1. I just want to say that I really hate people like you. People who put their financial interest over the actual lives of other people. You’re a bad person and I hope bad things happen to you.

        1. Thanks? I’m really going to lose sleep over you hating me. People vote their OWN economic interest – maybe not people here, but people certainly think of their own $$$ before worrying about who uses which bathroom or who has college loans (which I do too and I am paying them – didn’t expect anyone to send me to college for free).

          1. This. I’m sorry for people who can’t get into the country, but am I supposed to care more about people in Yemen or my own family here?

          2. Well, if Yemen won’t do it for you, our country needs a vital, thriving middle class to continue to sustain its economy.

            The current trends of gutting public schools, doing nothing to stave off the soaring costs of healthcare, childcare, and higher education while giving benefits to the mega wealthy and corporations, and throwing peanuts in the form of a tax break to the rest of us is putting the US on course to become has-been world power. So even if you don’t care (or don’t think you have the bandwidth to care) about other humans, these policies will still affect your wallet down the line.

          3. It’s neat how I can love my kid more than anyone in the world, but!!! still find a sliver of humanity within me and *also* care about other people. The heart is flexible like that.

      2. I’m surprised you think Trump is serving your financial interest. Even my white, religious, baby boomer parents and older relatives are complaining at how high their taxes are. At family dinners, they get in arguments with my other older relatives that are still with Trump because they “aren’t watching their money and don’t see they’ve been conned.” Unless you are the billionaire class, it seems most Trump supporters are in for the ‘values’ he professes and not because it is benefiting them financially.

        1. Yeah I’m crying over the 23% and 46% S&P and NASDAQ gains since Election Day. Just broken hearted I tell you.

          1. Yeah, you’re definitely not crying about this election – at least when it comes to caring about how others who are less fortunate than you have fared.

        2. Yeah, the 80% of working Americans who got a tax cut are just so sorry they have extra money.

    9. Why isn’t Andrew Cuomo in the mix? Normal, presidential, not a socialist and white male. Pretty sure that can work paired with a southern/midwestern VP or a Hispanic VP.

      1. Because he’s terrrrrrrrrrible! Maybe it’s a NYC versus the rest of NY split but this is the first nice thing I’ve heard anyone say about Cuomo in….ever. Corrupt, colludes to keep Republican control of the state senate, relationship with the IDC, refuses to take ownership of policy that he in fact owns, “old school political boss” style politicking….I voted for HRC but he’s like HRC minus the charm and sense of humor.

    10. Part of it is bad strategy by Dems, I agree, but part of it is that conservatives have spent decades bending the system to their favor. I mean, it’s insane that you can lose the popular vote by such a large margin and still win the presidency.

      1. Yes. At this point a Dem has to win the popular vote by ~5 percentage points to win the electoral college. That’s pretty freaking crazy.

      2. Agree on your larger points of republicans gamingvthe system, but your problem with the electoral college needs to be taken up with the framers,no?

  15. Has anyone purchased a home in a cheaper area and put their kids in private schools? What are the pros and cons of this approach versus buying in a better location and putting the kids in the good public schools?

    This is the scenario that we are debating now. We are strongly considering a relocation to a VHCOL area (Bay Area) for jobs and to be closer to both of our families. HHI income will likely be 400 – 450 K, which I realize is a princely sum but many friends tell me that even that salary is not that high for the Bay Area. Real estate is insane and I feel sick thinking of buying a $2.5 or $3 M home. We need to live somewhere on the Peninsula close to SF (Millbrae, SSF, Burlingame, San Mateo). We have 2 kids and potentially a third on the way.

    We have always lived in small apartments and buying a big fancy house is not a priority for us, but excellent schools are. I have heard that even the public schools in the super rich cities like Palo Alto are not even that great due to significant budget cuts. The last thing I want to do is pay for a pricey home AND private school on top of that.

    So, we’re thinking of buying a place in a cheaper area (like Millbrae or San Mateo) and putting the kids in private schools. I’m a public school kid and am not crazy about this idea, but I also don’t want to have golden handcuffs and feel tied to paying a super expensive mortgage every month.

    Thoughts? Appreciate any advice.

    1. Millbrae and San Mateo aren’t cheap. What about Pacifica? Also not cheap, but at least it’s less crowded and very pretty (and has good proximity to some extremely expensive private schools). Honestly, I know you have good reasons to move to the Bay Area, but I would reconsider. I just saw an old two-bedroom cottage in an average neighborhood go over $1.2 million (over $400K over asking) and it’s not getting better anytime soon. My husband and I plan to leave as soon as we can.

      1. Thank you all so much for the insight! I so appreciate it. Millbrae and San Mateo certainly aren’t cheap, but cheaper than Burlingame. ($1.5 M home versus $3 M home). But I completely get what many of you said, that private school tuition never stops, grows more every year, and is not an asset in the way a home is.

        Assuming that DH is going to work in SSF and I will be in SF, are there other places to consider with good schools? Marin is too far (25 miles to SSF). Pacifica has no public transport as far as I can tell and I’d like to take the Cal Train to SF. We don’t want anything too suburban. We live in a big city now and enjoy walking places and not having to rely on the car all the time (that may very well be a pipe dream in the Bay Area).

        We are leaning toward San Mateo or Burlingame. San Mateo is much “cheaper” but the schools are around a 7 in rank, which gives my husband some pause. Clearly that’s still a good score but DH is very much looking for “the best” education for the kids.

        Please keep the responses coming, they are extremely helpful.

        1. Another thing to consider is what your money can buy outside of formal education. If you go to a 7-ranked public school, which you said is still a good score, then you may have the money to supplement their education in other ways. Travel, sports, camps, music lessons, etc.

        2. Whether you’re involved in your kids’ lives and education is a way bigger factor in their well-being and success than whether their school is a 7 or an 8, so I would put the most weight on not locking yourself into a time-sucking job (or a long commute).

        3. In San Mateo you just need to be really location specific & figure out how placement works. Baywood for grade school & Aragon for high school are great schools; Borel for middle school isn’t great so you might just want to plan for what to do for grades 6-8 & make sure you buy in the part of San Mateo where you go to Baywood & Aragon.

        4. Most kids will do absolutely fine in a school with that rating; the scores are mostly a factor of the socioeconomic makeup of the school, anyway.

          Buy in San Mateo, send your kids to public school. If you feel the need, supplement with fancy private afterschool activities. If your kid ends up being one of the few who needs private school amenities, look into it then. But that could happen even if you shell out $3 million to buy in Burlingame, and then you’d have an actual dilemma. Personally, I’d probably go for Millbrae over San Mateo, to also be on BART, but that’s not your question here.

          And FWIW, the school my kids will go to is a 5 on great schools. I care a ton about education, my spouse and I are both college professors. But we are confident that the school is actually very good. It’s test scores are impressive for the demographics of the student population (diverse both in terms of race/ethnicity and income). We’ve talked to other smart parents whose judgment we trust and whose kids are happy there. Ratings are far from the whole story.

        5. I am from the Bay Area (Peninsula). I live elsewhere now and have two kids in private schools solely because they have learning disabilities.

          I will be blunt. You would be extremely foolish to put your two (and maybe 3) kids in private school when San Mateo has some excellent schools. San Mateo, Burlingame, Millbrae are filled with very affluent, successful, highly educated parents who are putting their children in the local public schools. This is the community you and your children will join. You will benefit from a very active and involved PTA, which likely raises a lot of money for the school.

          San Mateo and Millbrae have some population of ESL children and this could be why some schools are a 7 versus a 10. But your child is probably bright and he or she will not be one of those children lagging behind. And to the extent they are ahead academically, putting them in public gives you a lot more money for enrichment (camps, classes, tutors) than you would have if you went the private route.

          My advice would be different if your children had learning issues, but you don’t mention that.

          With my kids in private school, I need to drive all around the metro area for play dates since children live far away. This is a big pain. Both husband and I work full time and I hate wasting so much time driving around on the weekends. There is something wonderful about going to your neighborhood school and having all of your friends within walking distance. When you go to the store, playground, library, etc. it’s great to bump into people who know. This is what makes a city feel like a community.

          My strong recommendation would be to move to either San Mateo or one of the neighboring cities with a good public elementary. There is a range of schools in San Mateo so you will need to do some research. Try it out for a year. Don’t be put off by an old building (CA schools are notoriously old and not renovated). Instead, talk to the parents and the teachers. If you must, go on the private school open house tours in the fall so that you feel that you have looked into all options. But don’t jump into private school from the get go — it is extremely expensive over the course of many years, and it’s really not necessary in your circumstances.

    2. The public schools in Palo Alto and Menlo Park are great. If you have a $3M budget you can get a nice house even in that area. Do the math, but 24-36 years of private school (12 years per kid) will cost in the neighborhood of $1-1.5M and I think you’re better off putting that money into real estate, which is an asset you can sell, rather than just flushing it down the drain.

    3. I’m in a MCOL SEUS city with two kids.

      School per kid = 13 years, K-12. Privates in our city are about $20K/kid/year minimum. That’s a lot of money to me.

      I don’t want to be locked into BigLaw forever and want to be able to go in-house, go smaller, go to govt, etc. I am willing to pay more for a house where the schools are good enough to use (also closer to where I work). If I want to change my life, I may be able to refi / keep the house / be creative. Not spending for private school lets me save $. I bought the worst house available in the best school district that is close to my job.

      But if I had had a cheaper house + private school, the private school bill would be about what my mortgage is now, and I’d be locked into BigLaw forever, thinking that if the public schools are that bad, I couldn’t ever use them and I’d be paying 4K/month for schools no matter what (plus summer camps) + maybe just 3K for mortgage (vs 4-5K now for just mortgage and no school tuition).

      Plus, mortgage interest is deductible; private school tuition isn’t. There are good after tax reasons to spend on a house even with property and income tax deductions now being limited.

      1. One of my working mom friends said that private schools meant she could never quit her job (3 kids). I believed her.

        The main people I know going to private school are: people with just 1 kid, rich people with SAHMs and some grandparent footing the bill due to the educational exclusion on the limits for annual gifts. Re the second group, this means that many private schools in my city aren’t set up for a 2-working-parent house hold (no after school care, no bus, you need to hire a nanny from 3-7 every day, which adds another $1K/month minimum to the “cost” of private school).

      2. In suburban NY and beginning to think that with the current administration’s policies we may be better off in our cheaper house shelling out for private school. They seem to be incentivizing private schools and killing our property tax deduction.

        Also, felt the opposite re: long term commitment. My taxes wil remain high in the good school district house forever where as school is a 12 year commitment. Worst case senario I’d rather put my kid in public school than sell my home at a loss and deal with moving.

        My senario may be different than yours because I’m not comfortable with the big mortgage and taxes in a fancy school district are similar to private school tuition.

        1. Maybe with just 1 kid, but in my city you can get a house for less than 5K/month.

          With 2 in private school (@2k/month/kid) in a cheap neighborhood (2K/month rent or mortgage), it costs you 6K. The cheap neighborhood is further out.

          In my city, good neighbhorhoods appreciate much faster than basic or bad ones, largely dependent on school quality. So over the 13 years of school (K-12), you may have a house you could sell at a big profit and downsize in your neighborhood or rent or move out to Bad Hood and have $ left over. But you have options. In Bad Hood, you can quit your job and keep your house but then you are stuck with bad schools.

          IMO, the best answer is just move somewhere else: Dallas / Houston / Minneapolis / Raleigh / Charlotte / Northern Virginia / DC Maryland suburbs. You have more choices and they aren’t so stark.

        2. Yes-seems like we’re seeing very different markets and tax scenarios.

          The best answer is always to move out of ny but that’s not really an option (both our careers and both families are ny-centric).

    4. So I’m not a parent but FWIW, my parents had the same decision to make 20 years ago and decided to stay in their modest home and send me (and later my sister) to private school. But it was also much cheaper back then.

      I think finances aside (which is an important consideration but not one I’m qualified to opine on), I would consider what kind of kids you have. Private school was really good for me as a shy and bright kid. I was getting lost in the huge public school – teachers just didn’t have the resources to pay much attention to me. Private school really helped me shine and develop in ways I suspect may not have happened in a public school given the makeup of the schools in our area back then.

      1. I hear you, but if the OP can’t send her kids to public school where homes cost $3M, where can anyone in the US feel confident in the schools. This is just so damning to even be a topic of discussion.

        1. Seriously.

          And OP – your kids will be fine going to public schools in these towns. Don’t you realize that most of them will be from brilliant families like yours, and even better, there may be a chance of a little diversity in your local school district?

          Your income is staggering – even in the Bay Area.

          Your children will do well because of who their parents are, and how you care for them at home.

        2. Anon at 10:19 here – that’s all probably true. My family lived in a very modest area with a large underprivileged population so it was a very different situation than living in the Bay Area.

    5. My parents did something similar to what you are considering (bought a house in cash and sent us to private schools after a lackluster stint in public schools). Something to think about is that at those private schools your kids will be surrounded by people wealthy enough to live in the $2.5-3M homes and pay for schools on top of that. We were in the bottom 10-20% of incomes at my high school – I think being surrounded by so much wealth warps you as to what is normal, and it was hard for me to see my mom be embarrassed about our car/house/etc. While I did get a good education, I think it would have been more beneficial for me in the long run to have gone to a public magnet/IB/etc. school and been exposed to a greater swath of society (though the public schools in Palo Alto etc. are probably not very representative of the world at large anyway, so this may be a moot point).

    6. So you just need to talk to a local agent or people in the specific cities. I’m from San Mateo and it’s neither cheaper nor does it have bad public schools. Millbrae is only slightly more affordable. And 2-3M on a house will still get you a really nice place (you can find a lot with that budget, more realistic is 1.5-1.7). I say this because I think you’re worrying about trade offs that aren’t quite the right question.

    7. I did this. School never ends. 10k/year x 12 year x 2 kids. Wish I had put the money in a house 20 years ago. It would have appreciated instead of just being gone. Also with private schools you do not live near your kids friends. Be prepared for a lot of driving.

      1. In the Bay Area, it’s more like 35-45k per year, not 10k. Especially if you want the best private schools, which I assume OP does if she thinks the Palo Alto public schools aren’t good enough.

        1. +1. Most of the private schools I have looked at in NYC are about $40K per year. My friends who live in SF (granted, the city itself) say that it is about the same.

      3. I did public school for most of my life, then private for 3 years, then back to public because the school didn’t want to give my family financial aid. I double-ivied. Public school is what you make of it. You need to work harder to get access to the things you want/need (ie. school isn’t served up on a silver platter) but I learned a lot about resilience, community, leadership in my public high school while trying to get access to what I wanted.

        My high school also produced Bruno Mars (different social circles though)

    8. I’m not sure about Millbrae, but the schools in Burlingame and San Mateo are very good. I have highly educated, affluent friends who are sending their kids to those public schools even though the could afford private.

    9. I’m not sure what the problem with Millbrae/San Mateo schools is. They aren’t perfect, no, but they seem fine to me. In Millbrae, three of the elementary schools have an 8 or 9 rating on great schools.

      Look, if you need your kids to get a private school education (small class sizes, super-specialized curriculum, etc), then you are going to have to send your kids to private school. But if you are fine with sending your kids to public school in theory, then I don’t understand why you wouldn’t send them to public school here.

      1. I completely agree.

        These public schools are completely fine. This is one of the most elite areas of the US. Think of who else will be feeding into these schools. Your work colleague’s kids!

        And be glad your kids might grow up in a slightly more diverse area than Palo Alto.

    10. I would take a serious look at what private school costs. I don’t know the bay area, but in DC it is at least 30k a year, and more likely 40k – I doubt it is cheaper in the bay area. With 2 kids, you would be looking at spending at least 60k; with 3, at least 90k. That is significantly more than a more expensive house would cost in the mortgage each year, and then you are in some part paying down an assert that you can sell later (i.e. it’s not all money down the drain that you will never see again).

      There may be legitimate reasons to send your kids to private schools, but (in HCOL areas) it is not because it is cheaper then buying a house in a better school district.

    11. We faced a similar decision–buy in the city where we would be much happier but would have to send our child to private school, or buy in the suburbs with decent public schools. Housing costs would have been similar both places, but private school tuition is in excess of $20K per year. Because all the professional moms (doctors, lawyers, judges, etc.) live in the city and send their kids to private school, the private schools have great on-site before- and after-school care available, whereas there are very few options for aftercare in the suburbs because all the suburban moms SAH. In early elementary public school was the best option for us because it allowed grade advancement when the private schools would not have. For late elementary and middle school, private school probably would have been better academically. In high school, our public high school seems to offer more options for advancement than private school.

      You will also want to consider how your district’s attendance zones and busing policies affect diversity in comparison with private schools. Where we live, there is far more racial diversity in the private schools than in the public schools. The private schools and public schools are both economically un-diverse, but all the private school kids are rich and the public school kids are middle-class. We try to compensate for the lack of diversity through extracurriculars and summer programs.

    12. Also, if you need to be close to SF you might want to look at Marin county – great public schools there and it’s an easy commute into SF (ferry or driving if you don’t go too deep into Marin). Homes are less there because it’s further from the valley, but keep in mind your job options become more limited if you end up wanting to take something outside SF.

    13. No kids, but fwiw, we live comfortably in Berkeley with HHI of 120k. We rent in the city center for 2k/month, live fairly frugally and the high school here has a great reputation with the parents I know.

    14. I’m late to the thread, so you’ll probably never see this, but one thing I wanted to point out was private school admissions can be very competitive, particularly in areas with money. Don’t buy assuming you’ll be able to get your kid into a particular private school.

    1. When are you going? If you can get reservations Girl & The Goat or Bavette’s are both excellent.

    2. Coming in from out of town or are you local? We went to Rosebud Prime around the corner before Hamilton, and it was very good but nothing remarkable (which is fine, as we’re Chicagoans and will hit the remarkable placed on another day). If you’re coming in from out of town, there are several more “destination” restaurants either on the Mag Mile or on West Randolph Street that are probably 10-15 mins away (walking for Mag Mile; cab for WRS) if you have the time.
      Enjoy! I saw the show this spring for the first time and I’m stilling singing all the songs… :)

    4. I went to Cochon Volant (just down the street from the theater) when I went, based on a recommendation from a friend of a friend when they went. It was amazing.

      2. +1, not many other good dinner options in the Loop. Avoid Italian Village. If you want to leave the Loop there are LOTS of good restaurants to check out (Girl and the Goat is a good one)

    5. It depends on what you want and what to spend, my two recommendations at the complete opposite end of the spectrum are: Swift & Sons (or Cold storage!) and Revival Food Hall

  17. i’d like to volunteer with an organization that provides services (legal or otherwise) to immigrants in NYC/the surrounding areas. I have a background in immigration law but I’m not currently practicing as an immigration lawyer (formerly was an immigration lawyer though). NYIC isn’t taking volunteers. Any other orgs you would recommend?

    1. Have you thought about posting on the AILA forums? Or – in my area (not NYC) – Catholic Charities does quite a bit with free/reduced cost immigration law clinics.

    2. Glennon Doyle with Together Rising just posted a piece on her blog – momastery – that has a detailed guide on how lawyers and non-lawyers can help and what organizations are looking for volunteers.

    3. Join the L4GG and AILA FB groups and you will get lots of posts about these opportunities. l4GG has an Imm subgroup too!

  18. I saw the suggestion for Nailed It above – any other suggestions for good summer shows to binge? Basically everything lighthearted I watch is done for the season. I have the Handmaid’s Tale episodes piling up but I’m just not in the right frame of mind to watch them right now. I tried starting the Good Wife from scratch but honestly, the first episode just depressed me so I need some new ideas.

    thanks all!

    1. If you haven’t checked out Killing Eve, do it! It’s not exactly light-hearted, but it is funny and it’s a women-driven thriller.

      1. This show is soooooooooo good! Not light-hearted but it’s also not about how terrible the world is, so I found it to be good escapism.

      2. Overkill I know, but I also must plug Killing Eve. We just burned through it in a week and we never binge watch shows like that.

    2. Glow on Netflix was a quick watch last summer. Has some heavy topics but mostly light hearted, fun, female-driven 80% comedy/20% drama. Second season premieres this weekend!

      1. +1 love love love Glow. Watched the whole first season in a weekend and super excited for season 2

    3. Midnight Diner if you don’t mind the subtitle. I watched the show to learn Japanese in college but it is for sure the most wholesome show I ever watched. Also delicious Japanese food!

    5. Santa Clarita Diet. 2 short seasons of hilarious, weird, gory junk food. Plus the eye candy that is silver-fox Timothy Olyphant.

    6. So you have Netflix and Hulu? Younger and Teachers on TV land if you have cable. Frankie and Grace on Netflix if you haven’t seen it yet though sometimes it’s more of a drama.

      1. Queer Eye v 2.0 has been getting me through my day recently. It’s like an IV of sunshine, joy, and hope.

    9. Have you seen Jane the Virgin? It’s not light-hearted insofar as genuinely bad things happen, but you never lose the sense that it will all be okay in the end. I started watching it with dh after we got too demoralized by Mad Men and decided to ban anything tagged “gritty.” JtV is the anti-gritty drama.

    11. Younger (it is on TV Land).

      Also, I know it was mentioned above, but I also really loved Killing Eve.

  19. Saw a woman yesterday wearing a lovely long chambray dress. It was a light blue (what appeared to be cotton or denim) maxi dress with small white vertical embroidery. I have been trying to track it down online, but no luck. It appeared to have a square neck or at least a higher neck and short sleeves. Any clothes detectives out there able to help me out? TIA!

  20. DH and I just bought our first condo and we’re closing/moving in late July! Any advice for moving?? We’re on a budget so we’re packing and renting a truck ourselves. We have family nearby to help, too. We recently married and accumulated a lot of fragile items like wine glasses and old china, so any advice specifically about that would be helpful. Hopefully we have a week or two between the closing date and the date we have to be out of our apartment. TIA!

    1. Congrats! Buy tons and tons of packing paper – you can get it on Amazon. Use it liberally – wrap each piece, but also put some packing paper in the bottom of the box to cushion the bottom.

      Be very specific when you label boxes – Kitchen, wine glasses. Kitchen, china. Write it on the top and 2 sides so you can see it from every angle. Make sure you write fragile on those boxes too.

      1. Yes! This!

        We always have an ‘unpack first’ box. In it we have: a roll of paper towels, some cleaning spray, two rolls of toilet paper, shower curtain, two towels, a travel toiletry bag, paper plates, the coffeemaker/coffee/two mugs, and other things you’ll want right away (paring knife, scissors, etc.). We also each pack a suitcase/overnight bag with a couple changes of clothes so that we’re all set to look like humans the first couple days. All of these items and a bag for your pet if applicable, go in the car or the front seat of the moving van.

        Also, don’t overpack boxes or pack boxes that are too big. I personally am a big fan of boxes from the liquor store – perfectly sized, built to be sturdy enough to hold heavy bottles, and usually come with built in handles.

        A few notes on color coding: a good friend of mine marked all the fragile boxes with neon duct tape and it was awesome – you could very quickly see if you had to be careful with a specific box.

        The other side of this is that my sister’s SIL (who is pretty sure she is actually a disney princess) actually color coded all of the boxes for her house by room with colors. Because she is a princess, she used pink, fuschia, purple, etc…. Joke’s on her – her fiance is totally color blind and couldn’t tell the difference between any of them.

        1. +1 for liquor store boxes! You can usually just waltz in and ask them what day they restock; sometimes they’ll hold empty boxes for you and sometimes you can just pick them off the top of the recycling dumpster the same day (I did this and they were very clean).

        1. Rather than doing extensive packing of some larger “breakables”, I threw a few in towels, and loaded them in my car. Similar with some electronics, odd shaped things etc.. That seemed easier when I was moving to a close area.

          Loved the wardrobe boxes.

          Pick up free boxes on Freecycle and Craigslist, and then just go to UHaul and buy the rest of what you need.

    3. Start packing several weeks ahead of time, a couple boxes a day, with the stuff you 100% won’t need before the move (out of season clothes, holiday dishes, etc.). Dedicate a corner of your place to storing those boxes, and just let them stack up. As you go through stuff, give a lot of it away, but don’t let THAT pile up. If you just went through your books, donate all the unwanted books within a few days. Next up is clothes? Don’t let the unwanted clothes sit around until you’re also done going through your kitchen stuff, unless you need to let everything pile up for one pickup from a Salvation Army truck or whatever. Oh, and if you want a truck pickup for donated furniture or whatever, schedule it now. And when you finally do move, keep a box right on top for day-of essentials: toilet paper, soap, paper towels, multipurpose cleaning spray, shower curtain, shampoo/conditioner/body wash, and towels. You will be super sweaty, and won’t want to have to unpack a ton of stuff just to get clean.

    4. I don’t think you can beat bubble wrap for breakables. It’s way easier to deal with than trying to pad things with paper, because you don’t have to crunch it up (and then arrange the crunches carefully, ugh). Foam sheets for between plates are also good, and then bubble wrap around the outside of the stack.

    5. Gah! longer reply in mod, but I’ll also say that the ‘we’ll just take a week’ moves are the WORST. Get 90% of it done in one crummy day and just move on with your life.

      (Says someone who has moved a LOT and the worst move ever was literally 300 yards away)

        1. +1 – YES. Take 1 day to move your stuff. you’re going to need the rest of it to
          *Clean the new place
          *clean the old place
          *unpack at the new place
          * rearrange stuff at the new place
          *make 8 trips to Target/Home Depot/wherever to get things for the new place

    6. Pack all the “hidden” stuff first — the stuff under sinks, in the back of closets, in the cabinets. Get it all packed and boxed up first while you leave everything else just the way it is. The visible stuff — pictures, pillows, knick-knacks, books — it’s tempting to start there. But then you’re living in a dismantled apartment, and have all the horrible, hidden stuff at the end, when you’re sick of the whole business.

      1. This is brilliant. Because of the “hidden” stuff, there will be a lot of it that needs to be organized or thrown out, so do that while you have that first burst of energy.

    7. Chicagoan here. Honestly, spend the week packing and then hire movers. New City Movers seem expensive but they are SO FAST and extremely careful, so your cost is low at the end of the day. We moved two condos in the city to the suburbs and the whole thing, including travel time and three locations, was 3.5 hours. Yours will likely be less if you are moving into a condo that’s close. Spend the free time you have in that week packing up all your stuff so that it is in boxes ready to go and label them well (contents, fragile). If there are particularly fragile or precious items you can take them over yourself in the meantime, but seriously – just hire movers and do the legwork on the front end to make their job fast and the cost will be better for you. Also keep in mind that many Chicago condos require an insured and bonded mover, meaning you can’t do it yourself unless you show a large proof of insurance. If you are moving any furniture at all, just hire the movers. Also, make sure your new condo knows and that you know the rules- do you need to reserve an elevator, put up pads in the hallway or elevator, reserve a parking area, etc.? Don’t start off on the wrong foot there.

  21. How did I just learn about the (very adorable, feminine) Gal Meets Glam dress line? https://shop.galmeetsglam.com/dresses

    Some of them are work-appropriate and many are not, but there are lots of very adorable dresses. Nordstrom carries some of the line, too.

    Just leaving this here in case any of you needed to look at fun dresses (or, you know, buy yourself the Addison dress as a happy thing in the midst of current politics, which I am about to do!) https://shop.galmeetsglam.com/addison-k0098m-ove

      1. ha ha

        This must be our periodic advertisement.

        It’s not really the work-wear look that tends to be preferred on this site, so is not featured. Not my taste at all

    3. Which of these dresses are work appropriate, exactly? Nothing there is remotely appropriate for my business casual small law firm. Dresses range from twee AF to bridal luncheon to traipsing around my french villa picking wildflowers (and these are the most sophisticated). The number of bows is disturbing. And they’re very expensive for something that is so *~*very adorable*~*. Take this message back to your headquarters.

      1. Agreed. The dress linked to above is nearly $200 for an unlined cotton dress pictured with a V that is too deep for the workplace without a camisole.

    7. Bahaha, when it first came out, I mentioned it here as a PSA because I thought it was cool she had purposefully come out with plus sizes and people might want to know for summer events and was accused of being the bl0gger/creator. Nope!

      All that being said, the ones I got I returned (wrong size), quality was decent for price (but not terrible or incredible and price is relative), and I wouldn’t describe them as work attire. These are squarely casual/social in my world. But if they make you happy, then carry on!

  22. Trying to get my mind off the news… What fun dishes are you planning on making for the 4th?
    Bonus points for vegetarian items.

    2. FLAG CAKE FOREVER! I will always stan Joy of Cooking’s 4-egg cake for this.

      Also my parents gave me a trifle dish for Christmas last year so I think I will make a red-white-and-blue trifle as well. And maybe strawberry shortcake because I love dessert.

    3. Bon appetite’s blackberry icebox cake! I just want to eat whipped cream and cookies all day!

    4. Some iteration of cobbler. Meats on the grill. Couscous salad (couscous + halved tomatoes + cucumber + mint/basil + lemon/white wine vinaigrette). Cold beers. Store-bought potato salad for my fiance.

      Not that amped about America at the moment, TBH, so my effort level is gonna be low.

    7. We haven’t really made plans yet, but I’ll probably make a basmati rice and sweet corn salad with arugula.

  23. What bras are you wearing if you are small chested?

    I’m 34AA ish. Nordstrom said I was 32A, but that is often uncomfortable and flattens me to nothing. 34A tends to be big, although sometimes workable.

    I am looking for something with a little bit of shape/padding, as I am quite pear shaped and prefer that look. But not crazy huge foam padding. Maybe demi with a bit of lift.

    1. I’ve always loved Aerie bras. Specifically the Sunnie (with and without the underwire, I have both) and the Real Me lightly lined bras. They also have a bunch of push-ups with varying degrees of padding. They have sales all the time.

      1. +1 for Aerie! I have a balconette-style bra from there that subtly gives some shape. They usually have a good range of sizes, too.

    2. I wear the aerie hannah, which i believe is demi. There’s lift but not a lot of padding. I’m petite and small chested. I wore 32 or 34A for ever before realizing that wasn’t right- I’m actually better off with a smaller band size and larger cup size. (Think 30C or 30D).

    3. I adore Maidenform Comfort Devotion demi bra. I buy a 36A although the cups are a bit large. Check it out.

  24. Best neighborhoods in Charlotte to stay in for a two-night vacation in July? Looking for close proximity to bars/restaurants, though we will have a car. I have been looking at Plaza-Midwood and NoDa, but any other suggestions would be appreciated.

    1. How old are you? Will you have kids with you? What do you like to do? Do you prefer beer to wine? What sort of restaurants do you like? Budget?

      1. Also, do you want a hotel or an air bnb place? Do you like things that are luxe? Is it important to be able to walk to a starbucks?

        1. This is the oddest response. She said she wants to be near bars but doesn’t absolutely have to be within walking distance. You don’t need her life story and most recent biometric info to give relevant suggestions.

          1. Dear me. Everyone is so pissy these days. But I think it’s relevant. Is she 21 or 60? Both may like to be by bars, but different kinds of bars most likely.

    2. I am in my 20s and traveling with my dad – my dad went to Davidson so we’ll be spending some time up there and visiting some friends who have moved up to the Lake Norman area. Would much prefer an Airbnb instead of a hotel. Would like to be under $200/night all in, prefer beer, no kids.

      1. For zip codes for AirBNB, try 28203 (look for proximity to the light rail, which parallels South Boulevard). You can light rail down to the brewery area in lower South End (google Sycamore Brewery) or even ride the bike share bikes over down the bike trail that parallels the light rail. SouthEnd also has Unknown Brewery. 28203 along / near the light rail is very walkable to a lot of restaurants. You can light rail up to NoDa, where there is Heist Brewery and Cabo Fish Taco. Mac’s Speed Shop has good food, but there are many others.

        P-M isn’t on the light rail, but has lots of bars / restaurants (and Legion Brewery / Catawba Brewery). Midwood Smokehouse is yummy.

        NoDa is a fun area to visit, but I think you’d like SouthEnd/Dilworth near the light rail a bit better.

        If you haven’t been the the US National Whitewater Center, it’s probably worth a visit. They have good food and an excellent selection of local brews. It is very relaxing and almost like a mini-vacation.

      2. I posted a reply and it must be in mod.

        Southend / lower southend / Dilworth near the light rail are good locations to stay in. Zip is 28203.

  25. PSA: There’s an MMLF “misfits” sale in DC and NY today through Saturday. I stopped by the DC one on a work break and everything is 60% off – grabbed a couple great dresses. Most items are either samples, returns, or very lightly damaged, so take your time and check thoroughly, but good deals if you’re into the brand.

    1. I went to the DC one this morning — it was kind of chaos but I got 5 items (three dresses, a jardigan and a pencil skirt) for ~$400. Just expect sample sale madness and you’ll be good. Even better if you know what you want! For the “issues” these items had, I’m happy to take the discount and repair them myself or deal with it.

      In fact, I’m a little tempted to go back and scoop up one more dress…

    2. heading over after work! I got a couple great dresses at the last one (with no visible damage, just heavy wrinkling) so hoping to do well this time too

      1. I’m the anon from 12:40, one of them just looks like it needs to be washed to be honest. I’d 100% go again!

        1. Agreed – the very minor “issue” one of my dresses had is something I’m absolutely willing to fix and/or tolerate for the discount. This was my first experience shopping them (their regular prices are too high for my budget, sadly) but I’ll definitely keep my eyes out for this sale, should it come around again!

  26. I know this is posted fairly often – but any audiobook or podcast recommendations for a roadtrip this weekend? We’ve liked Serial, Stuff You Should Know, and the Daily Zeitgeist. Maybe looking for something more lighthearted/distracting.

  30. Ms B here —

    Yes, I totally read VC Andrews, but at camp, not through the library, because my mom forbade me to get it out of the library (and so I obviously HAD to lay my hands on it). That said, I read the entire John Jakes “Kent Family Chronicles” series right off of my mother’s bookshelf and she did not say a word. Although I knew enough to read “Fear of Flying” in my room where my parents could not see the book (after I found it in a box of my mom’s college textbooks when I was looking for a volume of English poetry for a school project).

    Good times!

  31. Question for the lawyers: Why do I have to write out both the number and the word when drafting/editing a contract? (I am not a lawyer but work a lot on our contracts with our outside counsel). I can’t imagine a situation where “ten” would be misinterpreted but “ten (10)” would be more clear. And it looks dumb. I’m so curious!

    1. As a lawyer, I prefer not to do it this way, as it adds one more place where you can make a mistake when amounts change.

      1. Same. I was always taught to spell out numbers less than 10, and just use the number when 10 or greater.

    2. Someone could add in extra digits and then there’d be a dispute about the correct version of the contract.

    4. Interesting to see the variety of opinions and reasoning! Thanks! For what it’s worth, I’m not going to bother trying to change anything in our contracts. That’s not even slightly worth my time. But I will 100% use this logic to stop the person who insists that we need to do this in our internal, informal memos (and on our website!!) just because they think it makes everything look More Official.

    5. Yesterday I sent an email to someone who was consistently typing a date wrong (think 1987 vs 1978) and I spelled the numbers out in addition to typing them – “it is 1987 (nineteen eighty-seven), not 1978 (nineteen seventy-eight)” – because I wanted to be a bit of a jerk. So there’s a reason!

    6. This is tradition and harks back from when English lawyers were paid by the word. (Yes, really!) It is also a drafting safeguard against typos.

  32. My partner just got promoted and won manager of the year award at his org – any ideas of a gift/thing we can do to celebrate? He doesn’t have a traditional role (doesn’t wear suits, carry a briefcase, etc.) and he doesn’t drink liquor. Last time his team won a big award I made a nice ribeye dinner and we drank like two bottles of nice champagne, which went over well but left us both on the couch for about two days straight!

    He’s nerdy/geeky and likes food. Appreciate any ideas!

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