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Here's a career question for you all: How have female bosses affected your career? Do you notice differences in the way mentorship and sponsorship look when it's coming from a female boss?
I recently attended an event where an older woman shared with the group how she had inadvertently held back a woman's career when she thought she was helping her. She explained that she saw the younger woman as a rockstar with potential to go far in their advertising company, so she put her on the biggest accounts and kept her off the smaller, more volatile accounts that involved more risk. But the younger woman came to her and pleaded, “Stop protecting me!” — because while the smaller accounts did involve more risk, she saw that her male cohorts would learn faster each time they failed. At first, the older woman was taken aback — she had meant to be sponsoring the woman! — but she realized that she was treating her as a mother would, instead of a boss.
That's probably the best outcome I've heard of a woman inadvertently holding another woman back and then realizing the error of her ways — but I've also seen a lot of others where women bosses, in particular, think younger women should have to “pay their dues” — grunt work, long hours, sacrificing a social or family life, etc. — in order to be “worthy” of sponsorship. A lot has also been written about the Queen Bee syndrome, where sometimes women at the top actively hold back other women because they fear there's only room for a few women. So I thought it would be a really interesting discussion here: How have female bosses affected your career? Can you point to anything the good mentor/sponsor bosses did that was specifically different than bosses that weren't great mentors, or were actual adversaries? In general, do you feel like more men or women have been your sponsors in your life? For those of you a bit more advanced in your careers — as you've moved into more roles with responsibility, have you actively tried to mentor and sponsor other younger women?
Pictured: Shutterstock / By Snezana Ignjatovic.
Anon
Unfortunately, not a single woman boss has mentored me. In some cases, they have actively tried to sabotage my career while pretending to be mentors. But I am in biglaw and also a woman of color. The lesson I have learned is to stay away from or be extra careful of female bosses.
Ellen
I have never had a female boss, but I myself am a female boss, and I took my dad’s advise by NOT being catty to my employees. I had an attorney working for me and now have just a secretary, and I treated both with respect, even tho I had to fire the attorney for having $ex with the secretary at work. It was NOT so much the act itself; but the fact that it was at work on the Conference Room table. I fired him for a lack of discretion, and for not passing the bar. Since then, to my knowlege, my secretary has not had $ex with anyone else in the office, so I was successful in getting the message across. Hopefully all women bosses will have the same degree of confidence that I do in manageing my employees. YAY!!!
Oldlady
The female secretary had sex in the office with the male attorney and you fired only him? That is discrimination and sexual bias. Sexism is a door swings both ways. You can’t just always punish the man! I assume these are two consenting adults, right? They both should have been fired, and for the same reason: having sex in the office. Whatever business your office is in, I assume it’s not a brothel. The liability exposure is a nightmare, not to mention the blatant disrespect for the company and their coworkers. Sorry, but the secretary is as much an offender as the attorney. “What’s gravy for the goose is gravy for the gander.” That’s what “equality” really is. By the way I’m female, and old enough to have seen a few things my dear. Strive to be more objective and fair minded. It will bring better people into your life.
tazdevil
Yeah, I am also a woman of color, and I would frankly rather work for the oldest, whitest, most conservative man than a white woman. I have spend my whole career as in house counsel, and have never had a white female boss do anything other than smile in my face and place a hachet in my back as I was not looking!
anon
+1
Anon
Agree. There seems to be a divide between white women and women of color’s experiences. I have often seen white women mentoring other white women but isolating/sabotaging women of color. White men tend to be either more inclusive or equally exclusive of all women. I have found that my best advocates have always been old white men.
Small Firm IP Litigator
Yeah, another WOC that agrees with this. My best advocates have been men generally – both men of color and white men.
Anon
+1 and lol at men’s equal opportunity misogyny or lack thereof.
Anon
+1 although I’ve found this to be true in law but not in my previous profession (non-profit where IME people across the board are either amazingly wonderful or horrifyingly mean and incompetent). Obviously this is a gross generalization and many women don’t fall into this, but I think law (especially big law and big law alumni) tends to attract white women that grew up in privilege, have little meaningful interaction with people different from them, and may or may not have unconsciously adopted the “I’m a precious commodity” attitude that U.S. mainstream culture promotes, and so are more likely to tend to treat people they see in a lower social bracket very poorly. This extends not just to people they manage that do not look like them but also how I’ve seen them treat legal staff.
Anonymous
Can you elaborate on the “I’m a precious commodity” attitude? I am a white woman in biglaw and think I know what you’re getting at but I don’t want to make assumptions.
Anon
Not op, but let me give you an example. A white woman at my firm who complained of sexual harassment was allowed to transfer office. An Asian woman who complained of sexual harassment was fired. The white woman dressed in a much more promiscuous way than the Asian woman. She was also more naturally flirty than the Asian woman. Somehow the woman of color was not protected when she spoke up, but the white woman was. This is kind of thing that does not get talked about. Women of color do not get the same wiggle room and respect that white women get.!
Anon
In short it’s a level of entitlement, not as a personality trait, but as a result of a lot of historical and cultural undertones that they’ve unconsciously adopted. There are some scholarly articles out there about it but it goes really deep as a remnant of the U.S.’s sadly racist history. In short, white men used white women, who were similarly disserviced by this system, by being put on a pedestal of fragility needing protection as a precious commodity (which also went hand in hand with female subjugation, a whole different story in itself) in order to prop up the superiority of white men as their protectors and all other POC as beneath them and a threat to their safety. It was an intentional tactic that worked well and has been used in many other circumstances – othering two groups against one another to prop up the superiority of another group (see poor against the middle class to prop up the dominion of the super rich, even the brown v blue eye classroom experiment).
All that said, the remnant is that some white women overvalue themselves above others simply because of their status as a middle to upper class white woman, that simply being who they are they “deserve” certain things in life and others not cut from the same cloth don’t inherently deserve the same things. I think most people would agree that no one inherently deserves a particular thing because of an unchangeable characteristic they were born with or into, but lots of women of that certain demographic certain behave as if that weren’t ethically true.
Anon
Agree. I think it’s also that law is more traditionally masculine field, making there fewer opps for women across the board. When oops are fewer, white women are more incentivized to see women of color as competitors. And because whites women are put on a pedestal when it comes to issues like sexism and gender equality, they can more often get away with targetting women of color.
Anon
Of the approximate 15 bosses I have worked for throughout my career, my top 2 are the 2 female bosses I’ve had. They have mentored me, they have focused on specific things that women are typically held back for, and they have pushed my career further than I ever thought possible. I look to do that for everyone on my team, including the women.
JB
I’m in consulting and have been in banking. I love working for and with other women. I can generally build relationships faster with women and some I have worked with are vocal about advocating for strong female leadership.
In my experience women and men are equally likely to be insecure and exhibit poor behaviors. So on balance, I’d side with the gender I’m able to quickly develop relationships with.
Shortie
This has been my experience as well in BigLaw. I also find it easier to mentor junior female associates than junior male associates.
Anonymous
I’ve had 2 great female bosses. One was when I was first starting out- she made me feel like such a big deal, let me ride along to meetings, and talked me up to all my higher ups. The other was when I was a director level and she was SVP/interim CEO. I got a lot of “make sure you know I know family comes first” re: when I had to do insane travel and other things- she would ask, and made sure I knew saying “no” would have no political ramifications. She put me up for several development programs and trainings. She was generally a great leader who made people at all levels feel like they were working with her and not for her- but they absolutely worked for her and worked HARD.
AnonTechie
this woman sounds incredible. Thanks for sharing
AnotherAnon
I’ve worked for four women in 12 years. The first was emotionally unstable to the point of undermining everyone who worked for her (most of whom were interns, decades her junior, yet they all somehow knew much more about her job than she did). The next was a fantastic mentor who taught me almost everything I know about the business I’m currently in. She left the company when her husband relocated for his job. I daydream about going back to work for her. The third was her replacement and not well-qualified for the job. She was more focused on being the “mom” of the group, which TBH was pretty toxic. I ended up leaving due to lack of upward mobility, which wasn’t her fault – her (male) boss refuses to let anyone advance beyond that group. Now that I’ve moved on I feel bad for her really – she has no leadership training but all the responsibilities and blame. It’s a lonely place to be. The fourth was well-meaning but a control freak to the point of causing me to leave a really easy, cush job because I was having panic attacks about being let go for failure to make other people do their jobs, even though I had no authority to do so. It was bananas. So overall a mixed bag. My main complaint about the men I’ve worked for is they are terrible at feedback. “You’re doing everything great. You don’t need to improve.” is neither accurate nor helpful.
SMC-SD
I envy those of you with great female bosses. (I had a great woman mentor me, but she was only a few years senior so definitely not a “boss.”) My only female boss was [delete multiple expletives] a difficult personality who actively undermined her selected victim de jour (and she always had a victim de jour) until they quit, got fired (usually due to something she manufactured) or left on stress disability.
Which is to say I do not really think you can generalize about men and women bosses. Wonderful people (and terrible ones) come in all genders.
Never again!
Working for a female boss almost ended my 10-year career in 2018. Adding insult to injury, this white woman is in a high profile position in my company, speaking at numerous ‘cheerleader’ events for women. I took the new role supporting her, arguably otherwise a demotion, because I was star struck like virtually all the other junior women here and wanted to learn from her. She froze me out from nearly all meetings, promised ridiculous things to counterparties in my absence and then blamed me, didn’t answer my correspondence, had more junior team members give me projects on Friday afternoons that required working all weekend (she couldn’t ask me herself?), actively SHUSHED me in front of counterparties and colleagues when I WAS there and DID try to save her from herself, discounted all my advice and experience, and then bad-mouthed me to my new leadership (who were too happy to believe negative feedback about the only senior woman in their group, also with the longest tenure).
Thank god for the numerous men I had worked for. They saw the train coming, were appropriately horrified, and ultimately saved me by paving the way for another lateral transition.
I will be so careful before I work for another woman, but I will continue to help and support women who are more junior to me.
anon
Your experience sounds awful, truly, but I would be careful about pegging it on her being a woman. I’ve seen men pull the same stuff. There are good and terrible bosses of both genders.
Anonymous
This. You had a bad boss. It doesn’t mean you should be extra cautious about female bosses in the future.
Never again!
Nope. She managed a large team of men and treated them exactly the opposite – even though most of those men had far less experience than I did.
Anom
You seem to be saying that men won’t be sexist toward women? Do you actually believe that women bosses are more likely to be sexist (or racist, as other commenters have suggested) than men? Isn’t this feeding into the exact sexism that keeps women from being promoted?
Anonymous
When I first graduated from law school and was hired at a governmental agency, my boss was a woman. She was such an incredible mentor to me, even though she created a toxic work environment for others in the office and ultimately was told to find another job. But she really did a great job of teaching me the skills I needed to represent clients well in this niche area. She was an incredibly lawyer and advocate for our clients who need fierce advocates. But she was an overall terrible manager.
AnonandAlone
My experience working for women has been limited and a mixed bag, but generally more positive than negative. The same goes for working with other women. The situations have differed when I compare working with women of color and white women. I’ve had some of the best working situations of my career working with other women of color, of varying ethnic backgrounds. And I am currently in one of the most toxic environments I have ever experienced, working with a team of just white women as the only POC and a male supervisor. There were two of us until recently. It is absolutely terrible and isolating now. I have been having anxiety attacks regularly since they got her fired recently for bogus reasons. Never thought I would think hiring a white male might make things better, but that may just be because it probably can’t get worse.
buzzkill
I dislike this question. There are great and terrible bosses of every gender, color etc.
Small Firm IP Litigator
Woman of color. Mixed bag for me too, but more negative than positive. I have had a few women who, on the surface, appear to want to mentor me, but they also constantly questioned everything I did and did not allow me to have good professional development opportunities. I felt disrespected by them. The men (including old white men) I worked for were much easier to work with, and came off as respecting me much more, and treated me like a colleague.
All of this experience is from biglaw. I am the most senior woman in my group at the small firm I am at now.
Emma
Anytime someone asks this I always want to remind them of all the bad male bosses they’ve had (which I’ve had some VERY bad ones and some very good ones). I currently have a female manager that I adore. She had championed me and I even got a promotion after taking maternity leave recently. I know she’s not god- at the end of the day I have to do what’s right for me and my career, but I like having her in my corner as a friend, mentor, and boss.
anon
In consulting. First firm out of college was smaller and had tons of women at all levels, with all different lifestyles/family choices, etc. I loved having managers, principals, and partners who I could imagine myself being. I also loved the variety of female role models there: there were women who were assertive and others who weren’t, there were women who had children but full time nannies, and others who worked part time, and others who didn’t have kids or spouses in some cases. There were women who preferred doing the work and others who preferred bringing in the clients. And people were all very open about all of this.
Now working for a bigger firm, which is financially much better for me, but comes with a pretty drastic shift in the number of women around. There are just… fewer. And they all tend to be cut from the same cloth. At the old company I could envision that there were different types of ways that women could be successful, and at current firm it seems like you have to be a specific type of woman to be successful. I was not expecting that, and I miss that about the older firm.
Kh
Such a good insight: At the old company I could envision that there were different types of ways that women could be successful, and at current firm it seems like you have to be a specific type of woman to be successful. I was not expecting that, and I miss that about the older firm
For me, not being that”specific type of woman” brought up all sorts of stuff I just had to leave to get past. Life is too short to feel bad about being literally too short to fit the “publicly presentable” mold and no way I was going to sit in the office working hard while the show ponies got all the kudos and money.
Anon
Working under men and women of all types of demographics (mixes of man, woman, older, younger, POC, non-POC, non-American, American) has been a mixed bag. I’ve had wonderful working relationships with women, although I find they more often than men train you in a “trial by fire” but “ultimately have your back” sort of way. Women bosses have been the only ones that took an attitude of mentoring other women as a duty of their job and a giving back service as a privilege of their position. But I’ve had some mean vindictive female bosses as well. IME as a female attorney of color, the female attorneys of color as bosses have been for the most part (except for a couple notable exceptions) the kindest, warmest, and the most whip smart to work for – they tend to treat you more like a human being than a wheel cog since many of them (especially the current partners) had a hill to climb to get to their position.
If I’m honest, some of the best mentoring I’ve received have been from older white men, but I think it’s more of a “let me help out this young woman who reminds me a bit of my daughter” effect rather than a “let me mentor this young professional”. A bit sexist, yes, but ultimately to my advantage so I don’t personally care. For the most part my male bosses have fallen into the camps as “mentor” or “mostly ignore you / don’t care one way or another about you just do your job”.
Housecounsel
I haven’t worked for a woman since my first, brief job at a government agency straight out of law school. In my midsized litigation firm, it seemed like many women were leaving firm life just as they became senior enough to really mentor and lead. I followed suit, shortly after making partner. I was and still am lucky to have male mentors, but really wish I had an example of a woman who managed to do it all. I know they exist, some right here. I fell short. I don’t regret it . . . . most of the time.
Anonymous
The person in my career who was the most helpful mentor and provided me with the most opportunities was also a terrible, passive-aggressive, controlling, narcissistic person who made my life miserable. He was a man.
Senior Attorney
I am sitting here in shock, realizing that I have never had a woman boss. Have worked with many women but only as peers.
Crazy.
Emma
I don’t think thiw is terribly uncommon and want to also point out that often times women are hired to problem positions that no one else wanted (so making it doubly harder to succeed and also mentor and try new things). I know that was the situation with my first management role.
anon
But have you ever supervised? Been the woman boss? Trailblazer…
Senior Attorney
Well, yeah. Hopefully I was/am one of the good ones and not one of the bad ones.
ITLady
My best bosses over my career have all been women and my worst (I’ve only really had one truly bad one) was a man. It is super uncommon to have women managers in IT, but I’ve gotten kind of lucky in that regard. Normally I wouldn’t chalk it up to gender, but for me personally it is more likely that I’ll do better working with women. I have a TERRIBLE relationship with my dad and am terrified of negative feedback and being open with men in positions of power. So unless I have a manager that is extra diligent of working with me and actively tries to get me to open up, I will struggle. It actually took this last bad male manager to get me to realize that, so who’s to say that I won’t do better the next male, non-initiative taking manager I get.
Anonymous
Healthcare industry. Pretty much all my bosses have been women and most have been pretty good and 3 stand out as being outstanding. One of them is now my boss’s boss and she has really supported my growth. The current problem is that my direct boss is not really a “mentor” person even though we have talked about my career growth. I wish I could have the conversation with the boss’s boss but at least I know she will help to support me indirectly. Only one time did I have a boss who seemed to be envious of my knowledge because she was new. That only lasted 4 months. My best boss ever was a man and he is still a mentor to me.
Anon3
Woman POC with POC woman as boss. She looks out for me (salary-wise, development-wise, time-wise) and is a great manager. Previous bosses have been mix of men and women. Great experiences there too. Every person is different.
anon
I’ve had a mixture, and the worst bosses I’ve ever had were stereotypically female villians. However, by far the best management, I’ve ever worked under was women all 4 layers above me to the executive director, and I don’t think that was a coincidence. Work life balance was a real priority, and the environment really felt more egalitarian than I’ve experienced anywhere else.
OpalGlow
Sad to say the best of my female bosses was extremely hands off and non-involved. The worst was a gaslighting nightmare. The more competent you were the more crazy the treatment. She wouldn’t respond to or send emails. I suspect because it was she want a trail. I had her initial notes and plans so when she tried to deny knowledge I had some documentation. We had an all female staff because she refused to interview any men. She actually commented, “I don’t want interview him. I don’t want another Catholic here.” (The man had attended a Catholic college.) We work in an industry where religious affiliation doesn’t impact the job. The paper clips are still paper clips. Have I had bad male bosses? Yes, but they never approached her level of crazy.
anon
+1000
except for the Catholic comments, I was hoping we had the same boos but no – there must be at least 2 gaslighters!
Julia
My best boss by miles was a woman. As are all the other lawyers and judges who mentored me. I am a government lawyer and have worked in the judiciary. Reading the comments above greatly saddens me. While I am white, I grew up poor and my sister and I were the first in our family to go to college. Still at 40+ I don’t get middle/upper class society. I have found the legal system significantly more welcoming than the suburb I live in. Perhaps, and quite likely, were I a POC it would have been worse but I’m still surprised that so many see older white males as mentors. For me, there are too many metoo experiences perpetuated by older white men.
Now that I am a boss I strive to mentor our young attorneys, female, male, and non-binary. It’s hard at times to remember my biases but I’m really hope those I work with see me as an ally.
A
I am a white female, former engineer, turned lawyer. I have had both non-white and white female bosses. Female bosses have always been the worst to me. They have gone out of their way to make things difficult for me and look for the smallest of things to criticize me or use against me.
P
I’m a WOC. Not black. My white male bosses have been nice, thought I was good, but never did anything special for me. My one white female boss thought I was good, signed me up for executive coaching (which was KEY) and promoted me despite not having the same alpha style typical of leadership in the company. She was 100% attuned to the issues holding “diverse” people back. I’m sad that others have had bad experiences. I try to be a good “female boss” and worry I’m being judged more harshly than my male peers.
anon
so sorry to be late to this party.
All of my female bosses were bullies, to the extent that it caused issues for me outside of work (and while I’m not a tough chick, I’m no wilting flower).
to the extent that I’ve heard so many echoes of bullying – at a PERSONAL level – from my network who stepped forward after a rough time, that I’ve chosen to collect others’ stories and write a book on how to address this behavior (and not call HR; doesn’t work when HR is *in the room while this woman is screeching at the top of her lungs* at me. my crime? not guaranteeing there would not be layoffs {we knew they were coming, I stuck to the party line}).
I’d love to hear from you about any queen bee experience you might have had:
please email me at no more queen bees at the g mail . c o m (no spaces in email address)
I’d be honored to hear your stories, and keep any info anonymous.
Thank you and best of luck to those in tough situations!
Amanda
I’ve been working for 12 years in the oil and gas industry, and I have never had a female boss. So there’s also that side of things.
Korkor
I am an Executive Assistant working for a Global company in the US. I work for the Board of Directors and use Nasdaq board portal. I am looking to find someone who does what I do so that we can bounce off items from each other. I am looking for creative ways to upgrade the position. I am struggling with my weight. I do kickboxing but my I don’t see much weight loss.
Korkor
Travelling to Addis Ababa in a couple of weeks. Any tips to give me? What to wear etc?
TheSassyOne
In my corporate career, I’ve had around 6 bosses total. A few were men and for the most part, I found them completely uninterested in me. My questions would be interrupted so that he could speak for a good amount of time on something semi-related but ultimately unhelpful to me, or he would provide a thorough explanation of why I didn’t really need the information I was seeking while still not answering the question. This has happened many times.
For the most part, my female bosses have been by far the most engaged in actively helping me to improve and succeed – with the exception of one. The one exception was older and had been in the business for many years. She had very specific beliefs on how things should be done/how people should act and because I didn’t always conform, I feel I was held back. I would be told I’m doing a great job one minute and find out she was telling others that I wasn’t ready for advancement opportunities the next. I was promoted within 6 months of her no longer being my boss.
My current boss is amazing – she has offered recurring mentoring sessions, constructive feedback, and generally helps me to improve myself while also retaining my own unique approach to things.