Previously, on Corporette…
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This time last year, here's what was on our minds… |
- Can Oxford shoes be worn to the office?
- Can I Wear a Longer Skirt to an Important Court Appearance?
- Ponytails at the Office: Yay or Nay?
and — in May 2008 —
Reading the first thread cited here — are oxfords with heels really that bad? I have a pair that I love and I wear all the time with skirts. I also have a pair of flat wingtips.
I don’t think so. In fact, it would never occur to me to wear them on any other occasion in my life, so I assume that makes them okay for work here.
I do agree that the “naughty oxford” pictured in that thread might be a bit much for most office, esp. with a skirt (with pants, esp. a wide leg, longer pair, I feel you have much more wiggle room in terms of what you can get away with).
Amused by the Lunch article from ’08. So true. I have a 12 yr old nephew in Boulder, CO. My free-spirit sister doesn’t think it’s important to teach table manners. He’s a very bright boy, but it’s sad to see him utterly clueless out to dinner, etc. He’s an academic star, but she’s not equipping him for the success he may have in the future. I picture him at a lunch interview not even knowing he’s making a bad impression. What to do? Sis doesn’t want me meddling.
Likewise. Although I am thoroughly confused about how much went into the knife and fork discussion and I am actually none the wiser what people think the ‘European’ way is, since I live in London and everyone has their knife on the right, fork on the left when using both at once. If you’re not using your knife, fork in the right, unless you are left-handed in which case you are more than welcome to use your left hand. I am right handed and there is no way I could even get my fork anywhere near my mouth if I had to use my left hand, so I have plenty of sympathy for the lefties!
The “European” way is not to put the knife down at all and use it to put food onto your fork, then put the food in your mouth with your left hand. The “American” way is to cut, put the knife down, put the fork in the right hand, put food on it, then put it in your mouth. Having lived in various places on both continents, I don’t think either of these ways is particularly European or American, although the former is more common in Europe, I guess. It’s just personal preference and how you were raised.
Ok, I get it now, the former is actually what I do, I was just getting really confused about the whole switching point because I didn’t appreciate that the whole idea was to cut first, then eat. I generally speaking will have both utensils in play, but fork in right if I am just using that. Although I can’t think of many ‘formal’ events where you would, except perhaps to eat dessert!
I have a good friend from law school who seriously did not know basic etiquette and had a hard time parlaying his stellar undergrad credentials, patent-bar eligibility and solid law school GPA into a job as a result. I actually sat down with him multiple times to practice table manners, how to order food and drinks, etc. I also had to take him suit shopping. His parents were far less educated than he is, and didn’t know better when they were raising him. But there’s really no excuse for not teaching your child how to conform to societal expectations for behavior. Even if you think the rules are silly, your child needs to be aware of them to be successful in life. Then he can decide for himself whether he wants to flaunt them (and risk ostracism or criticism) or follow them (and be perceived by some as conformist).
Anyway, I suspect you already agree with me. Maybe share with your sister some anecdotes about people you know who met professional obstacles due to a lack of social graces? Surely she wants him to succeed in life, and just doesn’t perceive nonconformity as a barrier to success.
DUJ: really agree with you about this. No harm in teaching a person good table manners, etc. He can use them or not as he wishes, but at least he knows what to do when in a situation needing them.
Agreed. I had very relaxed parents when it comes to this, but they made sure I knew what may be expected in public. My aunt also supplemented the education whenever she got me alone. It never occured to me tell my parents about this & I don’t think they were ever the wiser (not that they would have cared, maybe).
Maybe the OP should spend time with her nephew alone, take him out to lunch and have a talk along the lines of, “I know this is silly & doesn’t reflect who you are, but in professional settings a lot of people really care about . . . . ” Throw in some funny anecdotes about various faux pas & maybe your nephew will get the point.
It’s actually kind of ironic. My sister moved to Boulder & rejected all the values of her midwestern upbringing. Now she says she doesn’t think he needs to learn “those things” because it’s not required in their lifestyle. Interesting assumption from someone who totally rejected her own parents’ lifestyle….like maybe he could do the same.
p.s. other than this issue, we get along great. It’s only an issue when we vacation together, etc., in which case I just swallow my thoughts.
I have cousins who are slightly older than your nephew and we (meaning myself, an aunt, and my mother) are facing the same issues. My cousins are 16 and 14 and they have terrible table manners. They are sweet kids, and don’t have behavioral problems per se, but as Mom and Dad have never – I repeat, never – required the kids to sit down at a table for a meal at home, they had no opportunity to learn how to eat the way other people do.
Between my aunt, my mom, and myself, we have had the opportunity to spend some time with the kids apart from their parents and we are gently working with them on manners. When the kids eat with us I try to walk them through the process of eating a meal politely, without criticizing. Maybe as your nephew gets older there will be opportunities for you to spend time with him by himself, and you can bring some of these things up?
My older cousin actually told us at one point that he had gone to dinner at a friend’s house where they sat down at the table with real silverware, etc. and he was embarrassed because he didn’t know to do things everyone else was doing, i.e., put his napkin in his lap, how to ask for things to be passed, etc. It can create a social problem for kids, which is a shame because it’s not their fault. IMO, childrearing is not supposed to be about whatever the parents’ particular “lifestyle” is at the time. I have the same problem with parents who “unschool” because THEY believe school is bad. At some point, a child may decide they want to join a segment of society the parents had ignored, and the child won’t have the tools to fit in, much less get ahead. I get so mad at my aunt and her husband, who run a totally chaotic household where there are few boundaries and almost no rules, because my cousins are going to have a tough road ahead of them when they get out in the world. It’s almost like passing down dysfunction, and it’s a crying shame.
The whole purpose of etiquette is to have everyone playing by the same rules, so everyone feels at ease. It’s a shame that some parents don’t teach their kids the basic social graces they need to not feel awkward in a group setting.
I’m from Colorado, and maybe your sister doesn’t perceive manners as being required in her lifestyle, but I guarantee you that her neighbors don’t necessarily agree.
Um, just reread this, and obviously I meant flout and not flaunt. Is it ill-mannered to flaunt one’s good manners? Inquiring minds want to know.
Haha. I think using etiquette rules to make other people feel badly about themselves is actually bad manners. So, yes, in some circumstances “flaunting” one’s “good” manners can be ill-mannered.
Ugh, I have a similar situation with my in-laws…. but I really don’t think it’s my place to be telling the kids that no, it is not okay to yell at the top of your lungs in a restaurant, chew with your mouth open, etc. (I did speak up when one of them was putting his feet all over me under the table though.)
My parents were always pretty strict with me with respect to table manners, from as early as I can remember. And I also had to at least try new foods, which I think is also important. You have to be able to find *something* that you can tolerate eating regardless of the restaurant you are at, because you aren’t always going to have a say in where you go. I have to say that I was a little put off by a summer associate who complained at a middle eastern restaurant that “oh, all this food is just so weird.”
FYI, there is a Valentino boutique in the ruelala.com “final act” sale today that has some really beautiful, classic, deeply discounted pieces in lucky sizes.
Long skirt suits–back in style–see Marc Jacobs Fall 2010 style.com esp. if you are tall.