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Updated: Oct 30, 2018 330 Comments · by

Tuesday’s Workwear Report: Notch Detail Sheath Dress

The Personal Shopper (TPS)

This post may contain affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. red-notch-neck-dress-classiques-2Classiques Entier makes some of my favorite ponte sheath dresses — so they had me really worried this summer when much of their collection featured full-length, exposed zippers. (My [probably irrational] fear with a full-length zipper is, if it breaks, you're basically just wearing underwear unless you have 10 safety pins in your bag, which even then only lets you Frankenstein a dress together to go find/buy a replacement outfit for the day.) So I'm thrilled to announce the return of the non-exposed, tone on tone, almost invisible zipper that only exists on the upper half of the dress. This red notch-neck sheath dress looks fabulous fron the front, too — I love the three quarter sleeves, and I think that slit in the front is workable for work. It's available in red and a dusty blue for $228; only lucky sizes are left in the blue. Classiques Entier® Italian Ponte Notch Detail Sheath Dress This red dress comes in plus and regular sizes for only $128. Psst: If you're fasting today, we wish you an easy fast! Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com. (L-all)

Sales of note for 10.10.24

  • Nordstrom – Extra 25% off clearance (through 10/14); there's a lot from reader favorites like Boss, FARM Rio, Marc Fisher LTD, AGL, and more. Plus: free 2-day shipping, and cardmembers earn 6x points per dollar (3X the points on beauty).
  • Ann Taylor – Extra 50% off sale (ends 10/12)
  • Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything plus extra 25% off your $125+ purchase
  • Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
  • Eloquii – Extra 50% off a lot of sale items, with code
  • J.Crew – 40% off sitewide
  • J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site, plus extra 25% off orders $150+
  • Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
  • M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
  • Neiman Marcus – Sale on sale, up to 85% off
  • Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
  • Talbots – 50% off 2+ markdowns
  • Target – Circle week, deals on 1000s of items
  • White House Black Market – Buy one, get one – 50% off full price styles

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

About Kat

Kat Griffin is the founder, publisher, and editor-in-chief of Corporette. You can read more about her here.

Comments

  1. Cb

    Some recommendations:

    Uniqlo ponte 3/4 sleeve dress. Sleeves! Machine washable! Affordable! I wore the blue one yesterday with a blue belt and grey blue booties and felt really cute.

    Also, pro-tip for basic cardigans that are actually warm – the men’s department at Gap. They aren’t formal or fitted but they are warm, hold up well and are cheap if you pick them up in the sales.

    • Anon3

      Thanks! I always appreciate these sorts of recs.

      Let us know how well it holds up…. will the color fade quickly and the dress get stretched out with washes….?

      • Ellen

        Yay Kat and Kate! I love this sheathe dress in Red, and think that the manageing partner will approve it for work b/c the Judge love’s me in Red! YAY!!!

        As for the OP, I think the Cardigan Idea is also a great idea and will go to the Gap to see myself. There is a gap around 85th that I can go to to look. Rosa is comeing in to NYC and we are goeing to the Kid’s Gap b/f goeing out to LI tonite. I may NOT be abel to p’ost tomorrow b/c Dad takes away my Iphone when I go to temple and it is to clumsey to take an Ipad with me to just read e-mails and p’ost. He is also trying to push some new schmoe from the Upper West Side to date me. FOOEY! So I want to be sure to let the HIVE know to have a great new year and join me in looseing weight tomorrow! DOUBEL YAY!!!!

    • Wow

      The Classiques ponte dresses are wonderful but not forgiving to tummy pooches. I held on to one for far too long, hoping I would lose some weight, but no such luck.

      • Anonymous

        I really don’t like this one — the seam looks twisted (not quite deliberately) and I dislike front openings at the bottom.

      • RKT

        Generally, they hold up really well. I have six of them that wear in regular rotation, and they look almost new after about 2 years’ heavy wear.

    • MKB

      The Uniqlo merino cardigans are very nice, too. Plain, but non-itchy wool and so far are wearing well (I have only had them for a month or so, however.)

  2. Anonymous

    What do you all think of the call for 5 hour work days instead of 8+ hours?

    • ml

      I do a solid 5 hours of work every day and spend the rest of the time sub-optimally. If I only had 5 hours, I’d probably be just as productive. And people would have to be more judicious about meetings. I love it.

      • Cb

        I think it’s hard to do more than 5 hours of solid intellectual work. I’ve been going to an exercise class at lunch and even with travel and transition time, I don’t find that I’m any less productive on those days.

      • new consultant

        Happy to hear you say that because that is definitely the case with me too. I’m glad inability to focus for 8 hours doesn’t mean I’m being immature or lazy or something.

        • Newbie Associate

          I agree! I feel like such a millenial not being able to focus for 8 hours straight.

      • Sarabeth

        I think this is true, but I also think that most jobs have a significant amount of non-intellectual work as well. I mean, I’m a college professor, but I still spend at least 10 hours a week on administrivia (entering grades into our online system, filling out expense reports for grants, sitting in committee meetings, etc).

    • Lynn

      Do you have a link for where someone is arguing for this? I’ve never heard it before, but I’m all for it. There are days I go to the office knowing it will be a short day (because of an incoming snow storm, or early dismissal for holiday, etc) and I get more done because I know I don’t have time to waste. Some of my work requires thinking–I mean, not reading or writing but actually staring off into space and just thinking. That happens best when I’m not actually in the office, like while I’m driving or cooking dinner or folding laundry.

      • Anonymous

        I am the same way with my work that requires actual thinking. I use the recorder on my phone so I can record the thoughts I have at really random times, haha. Even when I’m not really aware that I am thinking about this particular case, something will just come to me.

    • Anonymous

      I love the idea in theory but I’m not sure how it would work with people’s different biological clocks. I’m usually at my most productive from 2-6 so if the five hours was 9-2, I’d really struggle to get stuff done. But I know people who are most productive from 8-1 and then just kind of while away the afternoon until it’s time to go home, so they wouldn’t be ok with an afternoon schedule. It seems like it would work best if people could choose their own schedule, but that would be chaotic and interfere with meetings. Also, other than that paddle board company that appeared on Shark Tank, I haven’t heard of anyone doing it or even calling it for it, so I think it’s a very long way off.

      • Meg March

        My fiance’s work makes it flexible. Technically, their hours are 10:30-6:30 (programmers), but the boss recently issued an edict that everyone needs to be there from noon-5 (ok to leave for lunch) and can make their 8 hours before or after or even later in the night.

        • Anonymous

          My job has that – except our core hours are 9:30 – 5:30 – before and after though, you are free to come and go as you please, as long as your work is getting done! yey! /sarcasm.

    • Houda

      I would be very productive but my days are usually 14 hours minimum and not because I am inefficient.
      No matter how productive you are, there is only so much you can do in 5 hours.

    • First Year Anon

      yes yes yes! and in my industry the expectation is more than 8 hours a day- and some days, yes, I am working that whole time (stress of a deadline), but generally I am not productive that whole time. I hate feeling like I have to put in all of these hours for nothing.

    • anon associate

      Who is making this call? It hasn’t gotten to the legal industry yet. But then again, we’re so far behind the times that it’s possible that the speed of sound just isn’t that fast and we’ll get word sometime next week.

    • Anonymous

      If you read about the guy who is proposing this, he says his employees officially work 8 to 1 but “it isn’t forbidden for the occasional high performer to still put in a 12-hour day when it’s really crucial.” Sounds to me like this is more of a marketing scheme to get the company attention than an actual effort to reduce employees’ hours (sort of in the same vein as how Big Law talks up “part-time” schedules that are more than 40 hours/week). I’ll keep my 9-5 where I never have to put in 12-hour days, thanks.

    • Anon

      Link? I would LOVE this. Productivity just drops towards the end of the day for me, but I can perform to a very high level and get going full speed first thing in the morning. My dream is 7-12 or 8-1 and then I’m gone. I love the idea of getting my days back.

      • Anon

        To add to this, I’m more than happy to work a little extra where there’s an emergency or something really important to get done. I do resent working extra for faux emergencies or just for the sake of filling the time.

      • CountC

        Same. I am lucky that my boss lets me pretty much set my own schedule as long as I get at least 40 hours in. I come in at 6:30 a.m. and almost never stay past 4 p.m.

      • Anonymous

        In-law of European doctors here. It’s actually not, except for some longer duration surgeries. Some hospitals can and do operate on 4 shifts of 6 hours each. And most female GPs in Europe work part-time hours so they often have 5-6 hour office days while kids are in school.

        • anon

          Most patient mistakes happen on turnover of patients to new doctors. It’s been proven. So when they tried to reduce residents’ hours, it actually increase mistakes becuase there were more shift changes.

          • Anonymous

            But the answer to that it’s necessarily long hours by doctors – it’s improving the transfer of care that occurs at shift change.

          • Anonymous

            I wonder if overlapping shifts would help? Reduce hours per shift, but overlap shifts by half an hour.

          • Anonymous

            They already overlap for the hand-off, so it wouldn’t really help.

            What is happening is that if 4 different doctors take care of you over one day…. none of them really knows you. None has seen the progression of your illness/response to treatment fully. Hand offs get sloppier and shorter, as they can’t become such a large proportion of the shift.

            I was startled recently how inpatient care has changed due to the changes in work hours alone for resident doctors. My mother was hospitalized. No one came around to check on my mother in the morning (called “pre-rounding”) to examine her and check on the overnight events and start preparing the plan for the day. Residents don’t have the time. The resident docs just stare at the computer screen, looking for any alerts/lab results. No more talking to/examining the patients. When the specialists were consulted, no junior doctor came around to examine/interview my Mom….. they just read what was already entered in the computerized record about her, and the team with attending came by at the end of the day to quickly visit my Mom and give their recommendations. This is inappropriate because a specialist asks different questions than what a general medical doctor often asks at the time of admission. And again, the junior doctors lost the opportunity to learn by on their own. This is how you actually learn medicine.

            The junior doctors are becoming weaker and weaker at their examination/interview skills, staring at the computer more and cutting/pasting notes (a very dangerous “side effect” of the computerized medical record). I can’t tell you how many times I saw the doctors document in the chart that my paralyzed parent had “strength and sensation intact”. And then that same examination result was propagated in the chart by people who just read and cut/pasted someone else’s note. My mother has no feeling or movement in her legs.

          • Anonymous

            But that’s a case of poor quality medical care vs. shift changes. My understanding of how it works is that each patient has a lead doctor who is primarily responsible for managing their case. Rounds are done during the first half of the morning shift and the second half of the afternoon shift. Lead doctors work either first day shift or second day shift. Overnight doctors are not expected to do rounds and primarily available if something urgent needs to be addressed (6pm-12am, 12am-6am shifts). And overnight shifts are not unpopular with doctors because they are short enough that you can give your kids breakfast in the morning, take them to school/daycare, sleep while they are at school and have evening/supper time together.

          • Anonymous

            No, that’s not at all how it works.

            And because of the time restrictions related to increased frequency of shift changes, there is more cutting corners and treating patients via computer rather than seeing them. So the poor quality of care is directly related to the schedule.

    • MargaretO

      Now that I’m freelancing I have that. It’s amazing. I get a full week of work done in about 5 hours a day, more is truly unnecessary unless I have a major deadline or huge project. A shorter work day for everyone would solve a lot of the work-life problems that get discussed on this site so often (sadly I doubt it will ever happen).

  3. Jitterbug

    Love the color! But I’m not a fan of the cut . . . it seams a little off.

  4. Ugh, Tights

    So, tights season is upon us again… For an emerald color dress, what color tights would you wear?

    Also, suggestions for brands to buy?

    • Cb

      I live in a year-round tights climate so this is my area of expertise. How tall are you? What color shoes? I like Capital Hill Style’s 2/3 rule so that might help guide your choice. I’m 5’7 and struggle b/c the mediums are too short and the large are too big through the legs. I’ve had decent luck with Calvin Klein (via discount store) recently. Intimissmi are lovely quality but too short and I find Marks & Spencer hit or miss but they have the largest variety.

        • Anonymous

          Of your shoes, tights and skirt, 2 of the 3 should be the same color/color family. So shoes+tights, but not skirt. Or Skirt+tights, but not shoes.

          I guess it could also mean shoes+skirt, but not tights, but I personal think that’s harder to pull off.

          • Anonymous

            I agree that combo is harder to pull off, although I do see it. It shortens the legs tremendously, so would only do with a heel and a shorter skirt.

            But I think tights always look better with a shorter skirt (eg just above knee instead of at knee/below).

          • Anonymous

            The two must be adjacent. Shoes + tights match or tights + skirt match. Cap Hill Style is clear that she doesn’t mean it’s ok to have your shoes and skirt match but not your tights.

          • SD

            But if I wear black tights I always wear black shoes, and I also often have a black skirt (and sometimes my outfit is all black). I guess I need some examples of different color combinations.

    • jumpingjack

      I’m a big fan of Spanx tights. They’re very comfortable and last a long time.
      .
      With an emerald dress I’d wear black or patterned black tights. I struggle with what color tights to wear with a black dress. Wearing black tights is too funereal, and I think that most colored tights look too juvenile for the office. I’d love suggestions.

      • Ugh, Tights

        I do gray tights with black dresses.

        Thanks for the suggestions! I’m 5’4″, so I usually don’t have any issues with them being too short. Oh, and if there are any suggestions for fleece tights, please share!

      • Anonymous

        I do black tights but a colored blazer, necklace and/or shoes to look less funeral.

      • AIMS

        I like the funeral look. But I’m in NY and its fairly the norm so doesn’t actually feel morbid. My issue is what color tights to pair with my navy suit. I’ve done navy but then shoes are an issue (I usually do brown), gray with gray shoes (but feels informal), and – my current fave- black but with black top and accessories to make it feel intentional.

        • Anonymous

          I love a navy suit/tights with a pop of color in the heel. A deep burgundy/purple can be a very professional an acceptable shade.

        • anon

          I don’t like tights with navy suits. Grey, navy, etc. all look mismatched or frumpy to me. The only exception is if it’s possible to blend the navy and black in a way that looks intentional and sleek – but that takes some thought to pull it off. Otherwise, navy is relegated to pants suits for the winter.

      • Lyssa

        I like gray tights between a black skirt/dress and black shoes. Breaks it up a little.

    • Jitterbug

      The tights I recommend for basically everyone are Danskin microfiber footed tights. Comfortable, soft, they come in a few different colors made to match skin tone, and they’re machine washable. And durable, since they’re made for dancers.

      I’ve also had luck with Simply Vera tights, but the one pair I have that kind of matches my skin has pilled like crazy.

    • I hate tights!

      I was going to come on here to complain about this too!

      My tights are digging into my stomach, despite the fact that I am thin. I am tall though, so my waist is bigger than average so maybe that is why. Except I buy larges to overcome this problem and all that happens is they are looser in the legs but still just as tight on my stomach.

      Sometimes I swear it causes me indigestion. Anyone have any thoughts on how not to suffer through winter?

        • RKT

          I definitely love the Commando non control tights. They’re almost all I wear.

      • Cb

        Are you buying low rise tights? I am straight up and down and low rise cut into me awkwardly but if I wear ones which are high or normal rise, they seem to notch in at my waist and are a bit more comfortable. Also, thick waistbands are better than thin ones.

      • JEB

        I buy tights that go up much higher. They hit just below my bust line. It’s completely eliminates the mid-stomach digging in, and it’s so much more comfortable! Some are Spanx/Assets brand, so they have a little bit of control/shaping. Others are regular old tights with a higher rise but no control element…I’ve had luck with Calvin Klein.

        • First Year Anon

          Not high or low, seem to be just regular rise…I can pull them up to my natural waist but I still find the pressure uncomfortable even if the waistband isn’t digging in.

          FWIW, I have never worn spanx or anything and I cannot imagine doing so. maybe I’m more sensitive than most.

      • Anonymous

        I find that the cheap JC Penney-esque tights aren’t as tight at the middle – I usually buy Q size, though I am more of an A/B. Otherwise, I cut the waistband out and paint it with clear nail polish if it starts to fray. Tights are always too tight at the waist on me, too and it is infuriating. Spanx are by far the worst – they just squeeze all your fat tissue into a muffin top shape at the top, even when you don’t normally have one. I have heard Commando tights aren’t supposed to be like that, but have yet to try them.

      • NYNY

        I always get control top tights. Not because I want to be sucked in, but because I find that the compression is better distributed. No control top means the waistband has to do all the heavy lifting of keeping the tights up.

      • Lyssa

        Cut a horizontal slit in the waistband, about an inch long. I tried this while pregnant and assumed that they would just fall apart, but they didn’t, literally for years. I still wear them post pregnancy and weight loss, and they are just oh so much more comfortable.

        • Lyssa

          I’m sorry, vertical slit, not horizontal. Not sure what I was thinking there.

        • KateMiddletown

          On that note I still have many pairs of maternity tights (most are spanx brand, or possibly from motherhood maternity) and I really like how they come up to my bra band. They’re not compression on the stomach and I can tuck them in and avoid any additional lines.

      • buffybot

        I am a fellow tights hater. Although not cheap, I strongly recommend Commando brand tights — they are similar to maternity tights, I think — they have a high but very soft waistband and I find them so much more comfortable that any other kind of tights.

    • Anon

      My favorite tights for a colored dress or skirt are either black patterned or the kind with black polka dots on a somewhat sheer background, if that makes sense. I saw gray with black polka dots at Loft this weekend and picked up a pair. I would wear those with a green dress and black blazer or sweater and black shoes.

    • Bonnie

      I like Hue tights the best. They come in different thicknesses and patterns and are often marked down at Macy’s and Nordstrom Rack. I always match my tights to my shoes or dress/skirt. For black dresses, I’ll do a subtle pattern.

    • Mommy Long Legs

      I’m hesitant to wear colored tights – it always looks like weird alien legs to me. Or ashy, or rashy depending on the color. So I stick to black or nude.

  5. Dream the Impossible Dream?

    I really like a preppy tailored look. But I’m wondering if it’s just not possible with my body type. I am 5’3, and a large chested, short-waisted hourglass. There is a 10 inch difference between my waist and my hips. I look at preppy bloggers and it’s all button down and tucked in shirts, and crisp tailored lines on tall, thin, flat-chested women. Is this just not possible for me?

    When I tuck in my blouses, I look like a giant b00b because my skirts ride up to my natural waist, so visually the only thing you see above the waist is my chest. Back in the day when Ann Taylor (mecca for the hourglass) was preppy, it was possible, but I think AT has strayed so far away from that look. J Crew just does not fit my body type and has lost its mind anyway. Any thoughts? Brook Brothers? Do they fit an hourglass?

    • Veronica Mars

      You can get a tailored look, but you’re going to have to go to the tailor and have them take in the clothing for you. That might mean getting a blouse in a size 10 because it fits your chest and then having them take in the waist until it fits your size 6 midsection. Skirts riding up is a sign of poor fit, I’d get that addressed at the tailor as well. I wouldn’t expect to be able to get clothing off the rack that fits you properly, and you may decide the extra tailoring costs aren’t worth it, but that’s how you would achieve it.

      • Veronica Mars

        I will say the only tailored looking shirt that fits well off the rack for me is the James Pearse button downs, which may be “out” now, but they fit amazingly well because they have a size panel that’s stretchy and the lower cut neckline is more forgiving. Definitely a weekend look, but that’s the only top I can think of.

    • Anonymous

      I bet you could do a shirt dress and belt it at the middle. For a top, I think you’d have to go to the tailor.

    • nutella

      You can like the preppy look but still avoid things that don’t flatter you. For instance, a navy blazer is an instant preppy look and could help break up your megab00b look while still drawing attention to your waist. Other details like piping (or stripes or critters, etc.) are very preppy as well as certain color combos (navy for one, kelly green, pink, pale yellow, white as a highlight, etc.) Then there are other parts of your look, like jewelry or shoes or accessories that can add up to a preppy look if you are wearing a base outfit (say a dress tailored to you) that on its own doesn’t seem preppy.

      So you could find a navy dress that fits your waist. On its own it wouldn’t look very preppy but combine it with pearls and a kelly green purse, voila, you are preppy.

    • KateMiddletown

      Go the Kate Spade route rather than the J Crew. And when in doubt, a big set of fake pearls takes it to the Southern preppy look instantly.

    • Bonnie

      Brooks Brothers shirts are the only ones that fit me. They have a tailored and semi-tailored style though prepare to size up. Their in-house tailors are also amazing and affordable. Their shirts are more expensive but wear like iron.

    • I am you

      Just bought a Boden buttondown that actually covers the girls. And their pants fit nicely too, even if they need a bit of hemming. Definitely made for the curvy lady who isn’t super tall.

      Belts also help.

    • Campbell & Kate

      The 2L to 16L sizes in Campbell & Kate are made for women w/ a 10″ difference between waist and bust.

  6. Anonymous

    A week or two ago someone mentioned that they knew people who were voting for Trump because they think he’s going to win. Setting aside the ridiculousness of “guess the winner” voting, I’m curious if those people have changed their minds now that it seems pretty likely that Clinton will win? Or are they just completely ignoring the polls/projections?

    • AIMS

      They were shocked, SHOCKED!, by his locker room talk and had a sudden change of heart.

    • new consultant

      Vote . . for who you think is going to win? Why – what’s the reasoning behind that? Why do you need to vote for the winner, they’re already going to win it seems by this way of thinking?

      • Anonymous

        It’s the bandwagon effect. The same reason people become Patriots fans the year the Patriots go to the Super Bowl. People want to be associated with winning and winners.

      • AIMS

        People like to feel like they’ve had a hand in picking a winner. Also it makes them happier with democracy and if it’s a close call, why not vote for the person you think will win. I think the effect may be more pronounced in things like the Oscar race vs. politics but it can make a difference in historic elections in particular. I’d think in this race, if anything, this would skew in favor of HRC – if it feels inevitable, some people who don’t personally like her will want to be part of electing the first female president in US history. But, of course, they will be cancelled out by all the people voting for Gary Johnson because “I don’t know, I just feel like Johnson lines up with my values better for some reason…”

          • nutella

            I know there are obviously exceptions, but every single person I have met that is vocal about voting Gary Johnson is a p0thead dallying in other drugs! Doesn’t make him seem presidential to me when they can’t articulate why they are voting for him.

          • fasd

            @nutella: Johnson doesn’t help his case when he can’t (or refuses to ) name world leaders or identify cites or know who Harriet Tubman is . . .at best he’s airheaded, which does not strike me as presidential

          • AIMS

            @Nutella – that’s funny. All the Johnson supporters I know are just Wall Street types who don’t want to vote for a woman but think Trump is an idiot. The potheads I know are all voting HRC.

          • Sydney Bristow

            Yeah Gary J0hnson really shot himself in the foot there. One slip up is perhaps forgivable but it’s become clear he has no concept of the international part of the job of president.

            I’m pro-legalization but voting for Clinton. Same with the vast majority of people I know who sm0ke.

          • Amanda

            Interesting. Everyone I know who was thinking of voting for Gary Johnson are die hard conservatives that completely disagree with HRC’s platform – all very smart people that I respect. Although, now, they are all leaning towards HRC given all of Johnson’s gaffes, yay!

            My crazy, conservative extended family on the other hand… Think HRC is the devil and will be voting for Trump… While most of them are nice enough people, they are the stereotypical Trump supporters, and I have always completely disagreed with their political views.

    • TK

      There may be some folks who are changing their vote now because they want to be on the right side of history.

      They were apparently fine with Trump insulting Mexicans and immigrants and Muslims and the disabled and military families but they drew the line at him insulting pretty white ladies.

      • AFT

        Well we can’t own Mexicans and Muslims and the disabled and other people’s families anymore but Republican men still, via the patriarchy, feel ownership of their women. So finally Trump threatened their property interests by claiming a right to grab their women.

        • Anonymous

          Excellent point which is reinforced by the fact that every Republican to back away from Trump cites that these women are “our mothers, sisters, daughters, wives” as if women only exist in reference to men.

      • nutella

        Agreed. I’m glad people are outraged at who Trump really is, but it’s sad that they only came to the realization when he offended two white women and not millions of other Americans who are different that he offended before.

        I also didn’t like the tenor of Republicans this weekend denouncing him with the “our wives, our daughters, our women” type rhetoric, as if this is only outrageous to them because it is speaking ill of another man’s wife, daughter, etc. (thus this is an offense bc of the relationship women have to men) and that the “we” here is obviously (white) men and not women or all humans of all backgrounds.

        Anyway, he is a slug and an equal opportunity offender, so I can’t say this makes me think any worse of him. Is anyone *honestly* surprised he said those things? Would anyone be surprised if more footage were found? I would argue it reflects worse on the politicians who stood by him before because to them obviously the value of two married white women is higher than millions of Americans who are Hispanic, Black, Muslim, prisoners of war, living with a disability, or otherwise different.

        (Actually I think there is something called the October 7 pac that supports politicians that denounced him before the tape came out and not when it became easy because everyone was doing it because white women are never to be insulted.)

        • Anon

          Agree on all fronts, but especially the wives/daughters/mothers nonsense. I saw a great tweet that went something like “as the daughter of a man” or “the wife of a husband” whenever something happens to a dude.

          • Sydney Bristow

            The best tweet I saw said:
            “STOP. SAYING. OUR WIVES AND DAUGHTERS.
            WOMEN. WE ARE CALLED WOMEN AND THE SITUATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR RELATIONSHIP TO YOU.”

            In all caps. It perfectly summed up what had my teeth on edge all weekend.

      • Anonymous

        I agree that there’s a racial element but I think it’s also different for a few reasons:

        1) the tape was about attacking a specific person whereas his previous comments about building a wall/deporting people etc were more generalized.

        2) it involves physically interfering with a person by himself personally (vs. having the police do something etc)

        3) the tape was older and he didn’t know it was being recorded- so it makes it clear that this is exactly who he is – it’s not bluster aimed at getting support from certain groups (ie with the immigration talk).

        His comments about the judge are probably the only other similar case and even then there wasn’t the threat of physical interference/attack. It’s more personal when it’s a specific person that someone is talking about attacking physically. And I do think it’s because there have been so many other awful things that he did/said that people got tired of holding their noses and waiting for him to turn it around.

        • anon associate

          +1

          These are the sort of elements that make the nastiness harder to brush off. His other demented, bigoted ideas (ban Muslims, build the wall, deport people, reintroduce stop and frisk, criticize women’s bodies, etc.) allow for plausible deniability. It’s the same dog-whistling, southern-strategy that the republicans have been engaging in for decades. “Oh, we’re not bigoted against Muslims, it’s for national security. Don’t you care about stopping terrorism?” “Oh, we’re not racist, we want Law and Order. Don’t you care about your safety?” “Oh, we’re not racist, we want people to follow our immigration laws and not take our jobs. Don’t you want Americans to have jobs?” ETC.

          But you can’t dress up a tape like this as anything other than what it is.

          This ^^ is the issue the GOP had with Trump all along. He’s a louder mouth piece to their positions.

          He’s not any more of a misogynist than Pence, who will force me to bear a child against my will.

          But if it makes you feel better (sarcasm) there totes are some people who are defending him and calling this “crude language.”

    • LawChick

      I was raised in a conservative (read Southern Baptist) household in the deep south. While an increasing majority of the deeply religious people who are my age have shifted away from voting Trump over the past few months (keep in mind I only know this based on their social media comments), the older (45+) deeply religious crowd still has posted (even as early as this morning) that they still plan to vote for Trump b/c they cannot support “her” and believe that her plan would be “catastrophic” for this country. Ugh. Two of these individuals were former youth group leaders of mine and it has changed my opinion of them. I. just. don’t. get. it.

      • Anonymous

        Ugh. That sounds awful. I hate it when people say they don’t like ‘her plan’ – like, really? Which specific things are you against and what’s Trump’s plan on that issue? And why is it better/logical/not insane? They always have like zero answer for that.

        • LawChick

          Funny you mention that b/c I did ask the specific issues he disagreed with her on. The OP did not respond but one of his middle aged “friends” did. His response was condescending and actually said, “thank for asking such a good question.” He indicated that she planned to increase estate taxes and taxes on corporations across the board. He tone changed completely when I indicated that I was an attorney and had practiced trust and estate litigation and asked for references re her increasing taxes on corporations across the board. It was amusing.

          • nutella

            Ha! Something I found amusing from the town hall:

            Undecided voter: how will you ensure that the wealthiest pay their fair share?
            Trump: lower taxes on corporations

            ?????

          • Killer Kitten Heels

            Late to the party, but Trump’s “plans” always remind me of the South Park episode with the underpants gnomes, where their master plan is basically:

            Step One: Steal underpants
            Step Two: ??????
            Step Three: Profit!!!

      • Blonde Lawyer

        Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Southern Baptist one of the religions that believes the man should be the Head of the Household and the woman should be subservient to him? If so, I’m guessing the fact that Hillary is a married woman is a big issue for them.

        • anonymous

          Yes. I grew up in the Southern Baptist church. My mom taught me that my marriage would fall apart if I made more than my husband did, and that I should also take care to let my boyfriend do better than me academically by the same logic. I don’t know how widespread this opinion is, though. It strikes me as really extreme.

          • SD

            I don’t get it. If men are really so much better suited to these things (academics, career, supporting a household) then why do we have to *let* them do better?
            No one ever seems to have an answer for that one…

        • Beans

          Yes. Among their many other horrible, outrageous positions. They cannot handle any woman with a semblance of power. I am surrounded by these people on a daily basis.

        • Cora

          FWIW, Russell Moore (the public spokesperson for the SBC) has been incredibly outspoken from the beginning about how awful Trump is and how outrageous it is that any person claiming Christ would support him. Trump couldn’t handle the criticism (no surprise) and called him “a nasty guy with no heart.”

  7. Anonymous

    I love the oversized coat look, but I’m an oversized girl – is this trend not for me? I’m worried it will just make me look big, but I’ve been adoring the look on others.

    • MargaretO

      I’m a borderline size (usually wear a 14 or 16) and sized up to a plus size so I could get an oversize coat (or really any coat that would button over my chest with a bulky sweater underneath) and I love it. According to the “rules” its all wrong for me – I’m very short, chubby, and extremely curvy. But I think it looks amazing, and its also so comfortable. Go for it!

  8. pugsnbourbon

    My team has started moving back in to our recently-remodeled-to-open-plan offices. God help me. My office faces the kitchen@tte and is caddy-corner to a co-working space.

    Also I know it’s weird to eat almond butter out of the jar but I get hungry, so people just have to deal with it.

    • Anon

      Ugh, I would probably quit over that if it were anything less than a dream company.

    • Out of Place Engineer

      We are moving to open office space soon & I am dreading it! The only thing that I find appealing is that there should be more “phone booth” spaces for private calls. In cubical land, it is so hard to find a place for person calls. In our new space, we won’t have assigned spots. So we can hang any personal photos on a photo board at the end of the aisle. Seriously, this is their solution.

      Also, if everyone sees you eating your almond butter out of the jar, they are less likely to tuck in when you aren’t around!

      • hazelnuts

        Hah! DH eats nutella out of the jar. Eating almond butter seems a rational and normal choice by comparison.

    • NY CPA

      My client just moved to open workspace and it’s THE. ABSOLUTE. WORST.
      Why do companies think it makes them so modern and likely to attract millenials? All the millenials that I know absolutely hate it.

      • Sydney Bristow

        I read that Facebook is paying developers 40-50% over market rates in order to attract talent because nobody wants to work in their huge open office.

      • RE

        I’m in real estate and see it all the time, but it’s about density. We are at a peak in the market right now, meaning peak employment. Why sign a bigger/more expensive lease for a bigger space when the potential for layoffs in many industries is looming in the next 24-36 months? No cubes means more bodies. I think people pretend it’s “for millennials” or at least use that argument, but it boils down to the dollars and cents of it.

      • Anonymous

        they do it because they think that if they have closed offices, millenials will spend all day wasting time online.

    • techgirl

      We hot desk – no assigned seats, all open plan. Maybe it’s because I came from working remotely for 2+ years (read in my car/client sites and once a month from home) that it really wasn’t difficult to transition to.
      I enjoy the flexibility and the conversations I have with people perhaps I hadn’t before. The original driver for our change was that there physically aren’t enough seats to assign them, but there are for the average number of people in the office each day (others on holiday/working remotely/at one of the other offices)

    • Anonymous

      If it’s wrong to eat nut butters (I prefer peanut butter) out of the jar, I don’t want to be right.

  9. Pillow talk

    Pillow advice please!

    I start sleeping on my back (because that’s what the physical therapists and my dermatologist recommends), but often turn to my side, which is more comfortable for me.

    After being a champion sleeper my whole life (I slept on a couch too short for me for a year…), I now start to wake up at night because my neck is uncomfortable. I can’t seem to find a pillow that I like.

    I have a firm solid memory foam (Costco?), and it doesn’t work. I have a shorter egg-crate pattern basic foam pillow, which is no longer working. I was debating buying some sort of down pillow but now see less of them (bad support?). There are several of these memory foam ones with broken up foam… is this the thing now?

    Thanks for your input.

  10. anonymous

    I have a coworker who made some comments last week about how he’s going to marry me when I get divorced…. I’m not getting divorced, I find it unseemly that he feels comfortable talking about that, and he also seems to have forgotten that marriage is a consensual activity. I generally don’t like this person and find him creepy. I’m not totally sure what to do about this now, so I’m just avoiding him for the time being. This dude has plenty of other issues and I just can’t tolerate him at all. Is avoiding him the best course of action here?

    • Wildkitten

      This is VERY disturbing and you should definitely escalate the complaint. Do you have HR?

    • Anonymous

      Avoid and next time he says something like that say “that’s completely inappropriate”. He’ll probably try to make you then feel bad about making him feel bad, but don’t back down. I was taking the avoidance route with someone at work and finally I used this phrase and things have been 100% better since!

    • Anonymous

      Find a new job. The Trump Corporation is no place for a self-respecting woman.

    • bridget

      Document and get on record with HR. You do not necessarily need to have an intervention with him, HR, management, etc., but you do need to get this on record.

      Continue to report anything else that is creepy and firmly tell him to stop.

  11. Anonymous

    PSA: The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks is going to be a TV movie! And Renee Elise Goldsberry (Angelica Schuyler in Hamilton) is set to play Henrietta Lacks. I AM SO EXCITED. I am probably behind the times, but I just found this out and about had a heart attack.

  12. Out of Place Engineer

    Ladies — I have been trying to find time for myself again after being in a work/mother/wife fog for several years. Starting in September, I committed to taking care of my face twice/day. (Baby steps!) So I am washing my face, exfoliating regularly, using some serums, and moisturizing. After 6 weeks, my face is brighter & softer. But I still have some dark circles under my eyes. I’m finally sleeping well more consistently, so I don’t think that is contributing as much as before. Recommendations for an eye cream to help? My make-up routine is….eyeliner & lip gloss. Not really looking to expand into a full face every day. Sensitive eyes. I search the archives and found some older recommendations, but was wondering if any one had a current product that they loved?

    • Anonymous

      YSL Touch Eclat. My under eye circles are just the way my eyes look, so I don’t waste time trying to change them. Quick swipe of this stuff hides them really well.

    • TO Lawyer

      I like the origins eye cream (I think it’s called GinZing) or the tarte one because I think it does offer some help with dark circles. But they’re mostly genetic so if you really want to cover them up, I think you need to use concealer. I use a colour corrector and creamy concealer – it’s quick and does the trick.

      • Amanda

        I just started using this, I like it! I also use a concealer (non-branded from a make-up artist in NY).

        Any suggestions on gentle exfoliators?

      • Puffy eyes

        I once borrowed my friend’s Origins GinZing on a puffy-eyed morning after a night of heavy drinking and it was just magical. It didn’t make the bags lighter because mine are sort of genetically dark, but it did de-puff the puffy parts and make the sallow parts look more… normal. Basically, it seemed like the best product for tired eyes I’ve ever tried.

    • Veronica Mars

      Nars creamy concealer. Some under eye circles are just genetic and unavoidable. If you’re also lighter skinned, you’re more prone to looking tired because your skin there is thinner and more translucent than average. You could have 12 hours of sleep and still have bags, unfortunately, if that’s just how your face looks (that’s how mine is, it makes zero difference about sleep, it’s all about concealer for me)

    • Hail Lady Hirons

      Unfortunately, a lot of what your under-eye area looks like is genetic & creams won’t help. Caroline Hirons has a ton of resources (she calls them cheat sheets) for what to look for in eye creams/anti-aging products, but is very frank about what you can expect. I’ve been following her double cleanse/tone/treat/moisturize routine for about a year and it completely changed my face for the better and I’ve never been steered wrong from her blog or recommendations.

      Link: http://www.carolinehirons.com/2011/11/eye-cream-cheat-sheet.html

    • Out of Place Engineer

      Thanks so much for the recs! I may have to go the concealer route on days it bothers me too much. I’m reading through the backlog of Caroline Hirons to get some ideas on where I can improve my routine, though.

  13. NYNY

    Going to NOLA Thursday to celebrate DH’s birthday. We haven’t had a vacation that didn’t involve family events in a few years, so I’m really excited for this. Neither of us has ever been there before.

    We’re staying at the Ace Hotel, and plan on poking around looking at pretty things, eating a ton, and listening to music. What are the great things to see/eat/hear? Also, I’m a little confused by the weather, mostly because I just switched to tights. We should pack for summer, right?

    TIA!

    • aBr

      Consider shoes carefully. There are lots of grates and cobblestone streets that will eat up any heels. I also veer towards wearing better covering shoes that can get wet/step in things if you are going to Bourbon.

    • H

      You will not need tights this time of year in NOLA. I went to a bachelorette party there a few years ago in October and roomed with a couple girls from DC who had planned their outfits around tights and boots. They really regretted it. I took jeans and dresses for the evening and shorts and skirts for daytime and it was perfect. Depending on where you eat, there might be a dress code so you’ll want to look into that.

      +1 to the shoe comment. Stay away from sandals; your feet will be filthy especially if you walk around the quarter.

    • AttiredAttorney

      Pack for a hot fall. It will be warm during the day, but chillier at night.

      It’s touristy, but go to the dueling pianos at Pat OBriens. I say skip the sickly sweet hurricanes, but they’re a traditions so you might as well…

      Eat at Cochon, Cochon Butcher, and/or Pesche. Do a dollar martini lunch at Commander’s Palace. Get dinner at Shaya. Get breakfast (or at least a pastry) at Willa Jean.

      • anon-oh-no

        second all of this. And if you can swing it, do the tasting meal (with drink pairings) at Commander’s. One of the best meals I have every had (and I currently live in Chicago, previously lived in NYC and SF, so I’ve had lots of good meals). Easily top 5.

        Also, the Carousel Bar is pretty cool, albeit touristy.

    • Anonymous

      Frenchman street for great jazz, it’s a bit away from bourbon but an easy walk. Cochon butcher is a must-do. Definitely get a muffaletta somewhere. Cafe du monde of course (we enjoyed getting coffee/donuts at 3-4pm and then eating dinner a little later than we normally do). I wore flats or keds the entire trip because of the busted up streets and sidewalks, and I didn’t feel under-dressed compared to most people. We did a swamp tour outside the city (rented a car and drove out there) and we loved it.

    • Bama655

      Definitely dress for summer. It’s still hot. Agree on the no heels. On Bourbon, I would go to Pat O’s and Lafitte’s. Pat O’s also has a piano bar that gets fun late night. Lafitte’s has good frozen voodoo daquiris. I like to get a daquiri while I’m walking around in the heat. Frenchman Street is the new Bourbon…it has more locals, so definitely go there too. Food= Peche (but you’ll need a reservation so might be too late), Muffaletta from Central Grocery (don’t abandon the line), Chargrilled Oysters from Acme, Coffee and Beignets from Cafe Du Monde, Jacques-Imo’s has a a great atmosphere…

      It’s also the Crescent City Blues and BBQ Fest so I would check that out. On a completely different tone, the Hurricane Katrina museum is really good and really depressing.

    • LW

      I just went there with my husband! Uptown is SUPER cute, great for afternoon exploring. We went to the Bulldog (bar, lots of beers on tap) to watch football for a bit and you can use that as a reference. Do some research on the restaurants on Frenchman Street, great vibe for the evening. We went to Galatoires for dinner one night in the French Quarter and Mr. B’s for drinks after. We stayed at Hotel Monteleone and they have a fun carousel bar).

      I found the French Quarter very overwhelming and wish we would have done more research on Uptown and Frenchman Street

    • Senior Attorney

      We did a Segway tour of the French quarter and although it was super dorky, it was a total blast. Also the horse-and-carriage tour that ends up in the cemetery was fabulous and not at all what I expected.

      And +1 to Frenchman Street. Great music!

    • Anon.

      I live here and it’s still hot. But it was in the 80s instead of 90s last week so check before you come! Could cool down a bit. Just bring one sweater for a layer and you should be fine. I wear jeans and a tee most days with flats and I work in the Quarter, so take that for what it’s worth.

      Where to eat is always subjective. Here are some places we like (not remotely sorted by price or anything like that, so check them out online if you are interested) –

      Uptown: If you can get in, go to Shaya. We also like La Petite Grocery (they are across the street from each other)
      Downtown (focusing here since you’re staying here): St. James Cheese (new location in Warehouse District), Domenica, Continental Provisions in the French Market, Peche, Herbsaint
      Bywater/Marigny: Cake Café or Satsuma for breakfast

      • Anon.

        Oh, and for music – best local resources are found on Gambit’s website and WWOZ livewire. Both are comprehensive.

  14. Yom Kippur greeting

    What is the proper way for a non-Jew to acknowledge a colleague’s celebration of Yom Kippur? I have a co-worker who is very touchy about the fact that few people in our office recognize the Jewish holidays, but I don’t know what to say to him. I know that “Happy Yom Kippur” is not appropriate, and somehow asking if he had a nice holiday doesn’t seem quite right either. Is there a standard greeting or expression that would be appropriate?

    • Anonymous

      Before hand you say “have an easy fast”, so i guess afterwards you could say “I hope your fast was easy/went well?”

    • Meredith Grey

      today: “have an easy fast” thursday: “i hope you had an easy fast” are the most common that I hear. That’s nice for you to be so considerate, but FWIW, I’m not sure that’s a reasonable expectation of your co-worker that those who don’t observe the holiday to know this! A default of: hope you enjoy time with your family/hope time with family was nice is always appreciated too (and then you don’t have to run through list of potential observance rituals!)

    • Anonymous

      “Have an easy fast” before the holiday or afterwards “Hope you had an easy fast.” Trust me, you are so far ahead of the curve by 1) acknowledging the holiday and 2) knowing that you don’t say Happy Yom Kippur.

    • fadjksl

      Why don’t you say Happy Yom Kippur? It’s not exactly a happy holiday right? I know you don’t say that but don’t know exactly why.

      • fadjksl

        Honestly I just say “hope you had a nice holiday” for most holidays. I feel good when people acknowledge my holiday, even if they dont know much about it, and I hope others feel the same way too.

        • Anon Midwest

          I don’t expect my non-christian friends to understand the solemnity of certain Christian holidays and celebration of others and I acknowledge the intent of their message. I assume that they would do the same if I misspeak and wish them happy holidays for a less than cheery holiday.

          • Anonymous

            Eh, Yom Kippur is the most significant holiday of the United States’ second largest religion…this isn’t some minor, obscure holiday. I wouldn’t expect people to be able to name more than a handful of Jewish holidays, but this is the biggest one and not knowing its a solemn occasion makes you pretty ignorant.

        • Anonymous

          Because there’s nothing nice about Yom Kippur. You fast for 24 hours (no water even, unless medically necessary) to atone for your sins. Saying “hope you had a nice holiday” when someone returns to the office from Yom Kippur is tone deaf because it suggests you think they were off having a good time when they were doing anything but.

          • cbackson

            Yeah, it’s like saying “Happy Good Friday” to a Christian. An incredibly important day, but not happy funtimes.

          • Anon

            Ramadan involves a month of fasting, and people still say “Happy Ramadan.” It’s cool.

          • Anonymous

            Actually, it IS nice. It is full of meaning and cleansing and generally family. And often ends with a “break fast” meal that my family always enjoys geatly. I have zero problem with “Have a good Yom Kippur,” or “Hope you have a nice holiday.”

      • ChiLaw

        It’s called “the most solemn day of the year” so I guess it would be kiiiiind of like saying “happy 9/11!” or something. The tone is just wrong.

        (If someone said that to me I wouldn’t be offended, but if you’re trying to say the right thing, you can do better.)

        • Anonymous

          Yes, “Happy 9/11” is a good analogy. It is a significant holiday but it is NOT a happy one.

      • MargaretO

        It’s a “holy day” not a holiday, and its definitely not a fun one! You’re supposed to spend all of it fasting and praying to god to atone for your sins (and you’re also supposed to spend the 10 days leading up to it apologizing to anyone you have wronged).

        I’m not an observant Jew and I’m not particularly offended by people who don’t know the right greeting or whatever, but I don’t think its that much to ask of Christians in this country (religious or secular) to make a bit of an effort to understand a few major points about Judaism/Islam/any other minority religion that might be practiced by a lot of people in your community. OP I’m really glad that you asked this question and I think your coworker will appreciate it a lot. And I think its good to ask! This is not me saying that you shouldn’t ask, but I guess saying that we should not be let off the hook, and that making an effort to understand each other should be expected when we live in a multicultural society.

    • Anonymous

      I have moved to “I hope you had a meaningful observance of this holiday.”

      • Anonymous

        Please don’t say this unless you know the person is observant. I’m culturally very active and so most coworkers are aware I’m a Jew, but I’m not religious at all, and this smacks of judgement about how the holiday should be observed.

        • rosie

          Really? It’s not saying anything about having a meaningful fast–I could see your objection to that, although would still view that comment as very well-meaning (acknowledging it’s not a celebratory holiday)–it’s just saying a meaningful observance. You can take “meaningful observance” however you want. They’re not saying “I hope you can spend the entire day in synagogue while you’re fasting and really make sure you atone and your feet hurt from standing so much during prayer.”

          Is your objection that Yom Kippur is not a significant holiday to you at all? So then you prefer no acknowledgment?

          • Anonymous

            How would you feel if someone said, “I hope you have a meaningful observance of Easter?” In my mind, that conveys an expectation other than a family dinner and easter egg hunt. If you genuinely don’t feel like this conveys any religious undertones at all, then I suppose the statement is fine.

          • Nati

            To me that just says “I hope you enjoyed the holiday in your own way.” The word “observance” does not have any inherent religious connotation.

          • rosie

            I don’t think there is any religious undertone. I agree with how Nati put it as well.

            I mean, I get that these can be loaded statements. Like I rarely do anything to commemorate Tisha B’Av, another solemn holiday in Judaism that is a fast day. If someone not Jewish said “I hope you have a meaningful Tisha B’Av,” I would be impressed that that day was on their radar. If someone who does observe it said that, I’d just think they were being nice (could be snarky about observance levels, but I think that’s pretty easy to tell and not something that I would anticipate getting from a non-Jew in any case).

          • rosie

            In moderation, but basically no, don’t see religious undertones, although cannot speak to how the Easter comment comes across (I’m Jewish). I also tend to think that it’s worth giving a person who is not Jewish but takes the time to wish a Jewish person a holiday-appropriate greeting (i.e., not “happy Yom Kippur”) the benefit of the doubt.

        • Nati

          Also, all of the (in my opinion, overly harsh) nitpicking in this thread is making me second-guess my well-meaning wishes to some friends and coworkers. Is that really what we want? For people to just not say anything to recognize one another’s cultural/religious backgrounds out of fear that we might not strike the PERFECT tone every time? Come on.

      • Anonymous

        If someone took the day off work, I presume that they “observed” the day in some shape or form. I am not sure how different that is than “meaningful fast”. Clearly, it is not a happy day, and I am very careful to figure out what holidays (or holy days) are happy and which are not when I acknowledge those days. However, this is why people stop trying.

        • Anonymous

          Yeah, I think “Hope you had a meaningful observance” is fine for anyone who skipped work. Cultural Jews don’t take off work for Yom Kippur.

          • anon

            Yeah, they do. Just the same as I — an at-best cultural Christian — took off Good Friday when old job allowed me to. Even the non-religious have family, cultural tradition, and their own way of observing holidays.

          • Anonymous

            But if you’re taking Yom Kippur off work, you’re observing it in some way (not necessarily fasting, but doing some sort of observance to mark it)…and if that’s the case why is “Have a meaningful observance” not ok? I’m a cultural Jew (who does not observe Yom Kippur or stay home from work on it) and I find this position baffling. If you’re choosing to stay home from work for Yom Kippur, you are by definition observing Yom Kippur so why is wrong for someone to make note of your observance?

        • Anonymous

          Yea, if someone takes the day off to observe the holiday, I assume they’re religious enough to observe the holiday in a meaningful way.

          If I know that you’re Jewish and you don’t take the day off I wouldn’t say anything at all.

          • Anonymous

            As anon at 12:57 said, “Even the non-religious have family, cultural tradition, and their own way of observing holidays.” That doesn’t have to include fasting, any more than observing Christmas guarantees you attended Church.

            If you want to say something, wishing someone a good holiday (it can be serious and religious and solemn yet still good) is a nice option. Or, like you might with a Catholic coworker, as what someone’s plans are for the holiday. Instead of assuming, ask a question.

          • Anonymous

            I’m Anonymous at 12:05. Just wanted to say – You’re right. That’s a fair observation and I have re-considered.

    • Sabrasortof

      I actually just like “have a good holiday.” Succinct, doesn’t get into questions of observance, but is more appropriate than “enjoy” or “celebrate.”

  15. Arlington

    Anyone bought any decent sweater dresses lately? I usually have luck at Loft, or similiar stores, but this year I am striking out. Looking for under 100 dollars, but would go above for quality, pretty plain, long sleeve (who wants a sleeveless sweater dress?!), just nice, cozy, wear with tights and boots. Is that so much to ask?!

  16. Gail the Goldfish

    2 questions and a tech comment for Kat:
    1) What color tights and shoes do you where with a grey skirt and navy top? Navy skirt and cream top? (I realized all my outfits are a combo of navy+grey+cream, but all my tights are black)

    2) I need to lose about 10 pounds in 5-6 months (wedding), which theoretically seems doable, but what’s the best way to accomplish this? I once went to the gym 3-4 times a week for a year (just cardio) and only lost a pound, so clearly that wasn’t it. Do I hire a personal trainer? Just add some weights? Cut back on carbs? Specific exercise programs and food suggestions are extremely appreciated.

    3) Kat, when I go to http://[thissite].com, it works fine, but http://www.[thissite].com gives me an error message Fatal error: Call to undefined method W3_Config::get_cache_option() in /home/corporet/public_html/wp-content/plugins/wptouch-pro-3/core/class-cache-smash.php on line 99

    • Wildkitten

      You lose weight in the kitchen, not the gym. It’s my opinion that any weight loss program works, as long as you follow it. (Following it is the hardest part.) So, eat more salads (with less dressing), cut the milk+sugar out of your coffee, reduce carbs, count calories, whichever plan you can stick is the best plan for you. Here’s my diet to go coupon link if you want to try that: http://fbuy.me/ea26U

      • Sharp

        Agree but would also add lifting burns more fat than cardio. You burn more fat walking fast than running. Cardio is good for your heart overall but to burn fat you have to get more muscle. But most of it is diet. Cardio makes me feel better and less stressed which leads to better eating.

        • SD

          +1 to lifting! Get a trainer to show you how to use free weights properly, and don’t be afraid to lift heavy! Squats and deadlifts use the whole body.

      • Jeffiner

        Weight loss is definitely more of a food issue than an exercise issue. I eat whatever I want, but I count the calories. I love to exercise (running, boot camp, high intensity stuff), but none of that made me lose weight. I use a calorie counter app on my phone and I managed to lose 50 pounds in a year and a half and have kept it off (so far).

        Adding black to a navy/grey/cream outfit can work, just make it look intentional. Maybe a scarf that combines black and one of the other colors? And regardless of how non-stylish it may be, I wear nude pantyhose. I feel more comfortable knowing I have a classic look than wondering if I’m messing up the current trend.

      • Senior Attorney

        I completely agree that weight loss happens in the kitchen, not the gym. That said, I am so much more comfortable when I can earn a couple hundred calories per day at the gym so I can have a little wine with dinner!

    • Anonymous

      Consider lifting weights also, I find that I get smaller, even if I’m not lighter- take measurements, you may not lose a ton, but you will be smaller. I like these books: Strong Curves, New rules of lifting for women, or thinner, leaner, stronger.

      • Autumn

        Second using my fitness pal. I’ve been religiously using it since may of this year and have lost 20+ lbs so far. I also measure my food on a $20 food scale I got from Amazon. So when I pack my lunch and snacks for the day, I also measure simultaneously. I stick to about 1200-1300 calories a day and eat a lot of fruit and vegetables throughout. It’s second nature at this point.

      • Anonymous4

        Third for my fitness pal. I lost 30 pounds over the course of about 4 months by tracking calories. I didn’t do a scale, but I religiously used measuring cups to portion out my food.

    • Anonymous

      What diet works for you is just what you can stick with. So this is going to be really personal. What works for me is that I try as much as possible to cut out refined carbs like bread or pasta, and replace with whole grains (but not rice) and fat. Fat and whole grains make you fill more full and take more calories to digest than carbs. Low fat eating is, for me, a great way to feel starving ALL THE TIME and then overeat.

      Since you asked for food suggestions, I’ll just tell you what I ate yesterday: for breakfast I had 1/3 cup granola with about a cup of full fat yogurt and a cup of coffee with a little unsweetened coconut milk, for lunch I had hummus with a red bell pepper cut into strips, several of those small cutie orange things and a generous handful of almonds, and for dinner I had a bowl of beef stew with quinoa, and blueberries for dessert.

  17. Bar events

    Lawyer marketing/networking question.

    At my firm, we are allowed to expense attending bar association events. The male attorneys (and female attorneys who golf) expense their rounds of golf. The local women’s bar is hosting a series of yoga/meditation/spin class events. Essentially, low impact exercise with snacks and mingling. I plan on attending a couple but if just feels wrong to be expensing my yoga class. I’m afraid it isn’t going to be seen the same as expensing a round of golf. Anyone done this? How about the women’s bar spa days? Do you expense the lectures but pay for massages yourself? You aren’t networking while getting massaged.

    • Anonymous

      If it has similar networking value, I would expense the events. Don’t feel you have to justify your yoga class or that it’s somehow inferior to golf! That seems like just another gendered way that ‘women’s-interest’ events are viewed as inferior to ‘men’s’. (Though obviously both men and women can play golf AND do yoga.)

      • Bar events

        That’s what I’m doing and just putting “Women’s Bar Event” on the check request. I also pulled in another female associate to go with me so we are registering/expensing together.

        • Anonymous

          I’m super sensitive about this stuff, but I would just write “Bar Association Event” without even specifying that it’s the Women’s Bar.

          I always expense “cost of attendance” whatever that might be. If the event is a spa day and part of the cost of participation is spa activity, I’d expense it, but not go crazy picking out activities. Usually these costs are lumped into one cost with CLE and activity being components of overall cost. I definitely would not separate them out to pay them individually. I’d just submit one number and categorize it as “CLE and Networking Event with [Association].”

  18. CountC

    Not that anyone cares, but I wanted to thank everyone for their Amazon gift card use suggestions the other day!

    I ended up buying the Veganomicon cookbook (I have Thug Kitchen already :) ), some Crane stationery, a new fleece for my pup, a little stress toy that also looks cool for my desk, a new phone case (boring, but mine is broken), some fancy candles with pretty reusable glass containers, a water proof shower/outdoor speaker, and the Notorious RBG book.

  19. REALITY CHECK

    Apologize in advance for this long post, but I really need advice. I am a long time lurker, and occasional contributor here, using a different handle….
    I am a 45 year old mother of two teenagers ( 13 and 17). Husband and I have been married for almost 21 years. I am a lawyer (litigator), he is a managing engineer in a low cost of living city. I am currently very frustrated, and feel like I need a reality check from the hive.
    For the last several years, Husband has been pulling away emotionally; not just from me, but from our kids, etc. He has been seeing a psychiatrist for about two years, and has recently ( 3 months or so) started with a therapist. I have been to one therapy session with him, at the therapist’s request. He just seems “amotional”…. What I mean is that he just does not seem to care or have emotions about anything. When we were first in our marriage (first 8-10 years) that did not seem to be the case. I have been chalking it up to depression issues, but he has been on meds (of various sorts to try to find right combination) for a couple of years now, and things don’t seem to be getting better. I have poured my heart out to him about this on more than one occasion, openly sobbing, asking him to share with me, and I get “crickets”. I even sobbed about it in a therapy session with him and the therapist he chose. (He did not want to go to therapy, but I basically told him that we needed to get to the bottom of this issue, and the only way I knew how to do that was therapy.)
    I do not suspect that he is cheating.
    On top that that, he has virtually disengaged from all relationship and household responsibility. For example, I have been doing all the scheduling college visits, scholarship searches, etc. with our oldest. (on top of cooking dinners, house cleaning, grocery shopping, scheduling appointments/taking kids to dentists, wisdom teeth, etc.)While he has tagged along on visits, he has not really participated in looking at schools with her on the web, reading information packets with her, etc. I asked him to please be in charge of monitoring our younger child’s progress at school, as he tends to “forget” to turn in assignments and not do things if he is not watched carefully. He said that he would…. Well, I checked the grades for our youngest last night, and there are several poor grades, missing homework, etc. When I asked him about it, the answer was, more or less “I forgot” or “well, I told him to keep up”. That’s just not going to cut it. I have now had to take over that responsibility. I spent three hours last night going through all of the overdue assignments, figuring out what was not too late to turn in, monitoring child doing it, etc.
    I also live about 1.5 hours away from my parents, and I am an only child. My dad has just been diagnosed with cancer, and I am going back and forth home every week or so for his appointments, etc. My parents are elderly, and need assistance with some of the medical terminiology, someone to go to doctor’s visits, etc. This is going to continue for the forseeable future.
    I am really just about “done” here. I don’t want to lose my marriage, but to be honest, I don’t see what I am getting out of it besides the fact that he does the laundry on the weekend. He says that he wants to stay in the marriage, but I see no evidence of it.
    Advice ? Suggestions ? Am I crazy ?

    • Anonymous

      Are you guys is marriage counselling? I think it’s time to go, and to say all of this, exactly, there. Print out your comment even.

      • REALITY CHECK

        He is in counseling, I have been with him once, at the counselor’s request. I don’t know if I would help or hinder his process in being there.

        • Anonymous

          He should be in counselling alone for his depression. You both should be seeing an entirely different person about your marriage.

    • c

      You’re not crazy.

      I would leave this marriage. If you need someone to tell you “it’s OK to get divorced,” consider this it.

      I would also say that it seems like you’re creating work for yourself and tell you to read the Boundaries book.

      A 17 year old can read a college info packet. Tell her to bring her the four favorites and you look at those. YOU are not a student–younger student does not not need you over his shoulder. He has responsibity for his own actions, and should suffer the natural consequences of not doing work.

      • REALITY CHECK

        Oldest has done a great job, but does need emotional support and advice, and needs people to accompany her on official visits and trips. I am trying to save youngest from himself and make sure that he learns good habits before he gets to high school.

        • Anonymous

          I don’t think there’s anything wrong with helping the 13-year-old build a system that will allow him to be successful in high school, as long as you’re not taking the responsibility away from him. Some kids need “scaffolding” that can then be removed a piece at a time.

        • Anonymous

          How many college trips are you doing? My parents made one college trip with me where we saw a bunch of schools, and then I applied to a bunch I hadn’t yet seen with the understanding that if I got in and it was on my short list (maybe top 3-4?) I would go for the official admitted students weekend (which is usually parent-less). It does sound like you’re in a very difficult situation, but it also sounds to me like you’re helping your kids more than necessary, particularly with the college stuff. I certainly had my parents look over my applications before I sent them in, but I don’t remember them “looking at schools on the web” or “reading information packets” with me. That’s really something a 17-year-old should be doing alone or with help from high school guidance counselors. Delegate the initial research to her and then be there to help her with final decisions like narrowing down her list of where she’s going to apply.

    • Anonymous

      You don’t need to add divorce to your list of things to deal with right now. He is clearly have some kind of mental health issues and not able or willing to support you appropriate ways. Reach out for support elsewhere. Take care of yourself as you can’t pour from an empty vessel.

      Reach out for support where you can. Ask for help – my cousin is an only child but I’m close with her parents and would gladly help if asked but I would need to be asked because my own life is busy. Ask, don’t wait for offers.

      Sit your kids down and talk to them about what is happening. That their grandfather is sick and that you are trying to do your best to take care of everyone but you need them to try hard too. At that age, my parents did not keep track of homework assignments etc. They should send you an email every week listing assignments and due dates and where they are with things – put the responsibility back on them – they are old enough – absolutely engage but require them to be proactive.

      When your dad’s medical issues are resolved or manageable, refocus on your marriage. You can do it all/have it all, just not all at once.

      • Anonymous

        +1

        Agree with all of this.

        Your husband sounds severely depressed. It seems like the medications are not helping sufficiently. I’m not sure how much couple’s counseling will help, if he is so depressed.

        Do you think his psychiatrist is good? Does he need a change? Maybe you need to accompany to a psychiatry visit sometime…

      • Hollis

        Agree with all of this advice. I just want to throw out that my parents and my in-laws were immigrants to this country and did not speak English, etc. and they did not help me or DH at all with homework ever and college anything. No college visit trips (I stepped foot on campus 4,000 miles away for the first time for freshman orientation). This is all to reassure you that your kids will be okay if you pull back a little – you need to focus on keeping your own life/career/sanity intact.

    • c

      Also, unload this stuff. the kids aren’t toddlers. The kids can also be in charge of cooking a meal ( order Blue apron or make them choose a recipe and cook), vacuuming, etc. If oldest kid can drive, add her as a signatory on the credit card and let her do some of this stuff herself. (she’ll also learn about credit card responsibility).

      My parents basically let me take the reins when I was 17 because they worked a lot. I had a credit card, and scheduled and drove myself to doc appts, arranged my own college visits, etc. I turned out great and always thought it was weird for my classmates to say “I have to talk to my mom about scheduling appointment.”

    • Anne Elliott

      No advice but I’m so very sorry. You’re effectively a single parent. For now, can you outsource any of the chores/hire a cleaner?

      What do YOU want to happen? Doesn’t look like your Husband will improve if it’s been years.
      It’s now up to you to decide if you want to stay in the marriage.

      Good luck.

    • Anonymous

      It sounds as if his depression is not being treated adequately. Can you get him to let you accompany him to a psychiatrist appointment and spell our your concerns about his apathy and lack of emotion? Also, is his therapist a good fit? If he doesn’t “click” with the therapist, therapy will be of limited value.

      • REALITY CHECK

        I am not sure that the meds are working adequately. He does not particularly like his psychiatrist, but I frankly don’t have time to look into finding another one for him, and I know he won’t do it. He really likes his therapist. I liked the therapist in the only visit where I met him, but don’t know if its truly the best person or not. I really appreciate your responses.

        • Diana Barry

          This is hard. Can you accompany him to a psychiatrist appt and say “the meds are not working” and describe all the things that are happening? His disengagement sounds like the depression is (still) not adequately treated.

        • Anonymous

          Fit is more important with the therapist than with the psychiatrist. If I were you I’d really try to go to the psychiatrist with him. Especially if he doesn’t like the doc, he may not be being completely honest about his symptoms, doc may not be asking the right questions, or doc may not be taking things seriously enough. Your third-party perspective could be helpful.

          • ORD

            Could you call or write a letter to the psychiatrist about what you observe at home? I know info can’t go from doctor to wife without patient’s consent, but I don’t see why you couldn’t write it all down in a letter and mail it to the doctor, to be part of your husband’s record and for consideration. I suggest that b/c it sounds like you are so short on time.

        • Sarabeth

          Yeah, it sounds to me like his depressions is not being adequately managed. I agree with the suggestion to go the psychiatrist appointment with him and push for new meds.

        • Anon

          I know you are so pressed for time and reserves right now, but I would consider finding your own counselor to work through where your boundaries are and should be, whether you want to continue in this marriage, and how to ensure you are taking care of yourself and rebuilding your reserves. I’m not sure marriage counselor is the answer right now.

          Good that he’s seeing a counselor. Have you considered that his diagnosis might be wrong? Do you think his assessment re depression was adequate?

        • Anonymous

          Ask the therapist to recommend another psychiatrist. Good therapists tend to know and work with good psychiatrists. It is time for a change.

          You can do this.

          Remember, your husband is sick. It doesn’t make it easier, but it makes it more understandable. And his intractability is part of the disease. What you describe is classic….

      • Also have a depressed spouse

        Yes. This. My husband suffers from major depressive disorder. He was “treated” for two years, but treated inadequately by a psychiatric NP. The meds took the edge off of his depression for a short while, but did not actually treat it. He also had a therapist who just kind of liked to chat with him but did not push him to really address the issues underlying the depression.

        It took a full on crisis for us to get his depression fully treated. He ended up doing ECT, finding a new treatment team (therapist plus psychiatrist).

        I hear you that you don’t have time to solve this for him. However, you can draw your own boundaries for continuing in your marriage, and a very reasonable boundary is that he is getting sufficient treatment. My recommendation would be to contact his therapist and psychiatrist. Tell them that you are almost done. Tell them your concerns. Tell your husband what you are doing. And then keep to your boundary. He gets treatment or you are done.

    • Blonde Lawyer

      What if to make your load a little lighter, you keep scheduling things (since your husband would likely forget to schedule them) and then just leave him in charge of transportation for the things that don’t need a big decision maker present.

      For example – you tell husband that Thursday at 2, he is taking the 13 year old to the dentist. Then you tell the 13 year old, at 1:30, get dad and go to the dentist. All dad has to do then is drive there and back but it is one big thing off your list for that day.

      Same with the college visits, you can schedule them but send him with the 17 year old. 17 is old enough to say “dad I want to look at this or go to this lecture.” She doesn’t need him to keep track of the time on their college visit.

      As someone with ADD, I find it hard when I am given a big task “manage 13 year old’s homework” for example and do much better with smaller, broken up tasks. Even a task like “go grocery shopping” can be hard for me but a task like “get a pound of hamburger, an onion and a pepper” is easy for me. Start small and work your way up. For manage 13 year old’s homework, it might help to break down what steps you use. Maybe, check assignment notebook each night when kid gets home. Check to see if assignments are completed before kid goes to bed.

      • Anonymous

        If I wanted another child Id have one. Sorry, no. You’re an adult, figure out how to function.

        I wouldn’t divorced him now because it’s a hassle, but mentally id be done.

      • Anon

        Agree about ADD. Large tasks are paralyzing.

        Depending on his medication, it may be flattening ALL of his emotions, not just the negative ones.

      • Blonde Lawyer

        Would you say that if he had cancer and couldn’t help with the household? Mental illness is still illness. It sounds like he is taking steps to treat it, they just aren’t working yet. Does in sickness and health mean anything to you?

        • Anonymous

          He’s spent years disengaged and refuses to get adequate help. Yes, if my husband wouldn’t take his chemo I would leave.

    • Senior Attorney

      You are not crazy. This situation is enough to make anybody feel crazy. I have been where you are — sobbing my heart out to my husband, alone and with his therapist, with no results. I finally got the courage to leave, and less than four years later I am remarried to a wonderful man who adores me and treats me like a queen. But even before I met Lovely Husband, I was far happier on my own than I was in that awful marriage.

      I agree that your kids don’t need a ton of hand-holding at this age. I feel your pain about the parental caregiving because I’m in the thick of that, too. I say divorce if you have the energy, if not then check out mentally and leave when things calm down a bit and you can put a plan together.

      • Anonymous

        The problem here is that OP’s husband’s mental illness is making him basically non-functional as a parent. In a divorce he’d presumably get some solo parenting time, which it doesn’t sound like he could handle. Normally staying “for the sake of the kids” is counterproductive, but in this instance it might be the better option.

        • Anonymous

          If his mental illness is so severe that he can’t function as a parent, I would hope that the court would take that into account in determining what custodial arrangement is in the best interest of their children- and grant him only supervised visitation.

          • Anonymous

            courts very rarely require supervised visitation unless it’s like not feeding the kids levels of neglect or drug use issues.

    • lawsuited

      A close friend of mine was “amotional” like you describe while taking anti-depressants. It took the edge off her depression, but didn’t allow her to feel other normal emotions. So, it may be worth accompanying your husband to one of his psychiatry appointments and explaining this side effect and the impact its having on your family to see whether something can be done.

      Also, I hear what you’re saying about your daughter needing emotional support, but it will help you to differentiate between child problems (that your children can and should reasonably handle on their own) and adult problems (that you need to intervene in). Your daughter can and should browse university websites and pamphlets and make preliminary Pro/Con lists to synthesize this information, then you and your husband likely need to be involved in the ultimate discussion of where to apply. Your daughter can then schedule school tours and prepare her application, and you can be involved in driving her to the tours and providing financial information that may be required for the application. You, and your husband, will get burned out if you are required to look through each pamphlet with your daughter as a group activity.

      • REALITY CHECK

        Just to be clear, she chose the schools that she wanted to visit, and did the applications herself.

        I arranged the visits and went with her on all 4 them ( all but one was out of town, and essentially a day trip each time). I spent time on the web looking at the schools to determine if they would seem to be a good fit for her academically (her HS guidance counselor sucks) and if we could afford to send her there.

        The applications are now done, so that’s a “sunk cost”. It was just an example of what he just doesn’t do.

        For those that are suggesting my kids do more, they both have chores, and the oldest works both weekend days as a waitress at a diner in our city. Both are athletes and have cross country practice every day from 4-6, so are not home to cook dinner. They come home, eat dinner, shower, and do homework, and are in bed around 10.

        I do appreciate all of the responses. It has given me some things to think about.

        • Anonymous

          I truly encourage you to help him find a new psychiatrist. Just ask the counselor for a referral.

          You are doing an amazing job. Amazing.

    • Anon for This

      I’m writing mostly in sympathy; this is exactly what happened in my marriage, except we have no kids. My ex-husband suffered (suffers) from severe depression; he withdrew and became affectless. Medication either did not help or had severe side effects or both. Eventually he gave up on medication and would not continue with therapy or even try the most basic ways of improving your life if you have depression (like exercise). He stopped doing anything by way of household chores, except for taking the garbage out to the street once a week. Cleaning, meals, laundry, finances, yard work: I did it all.

      Even without our having kids, even with my hiring help like a cleaning service and a lawn service, and even with my getting wonderful emotional support from friends and relations, I became overburdened to the point of exhaustion and near-depression of my own. He was not willing or able to make things better. We were no longer partners; he was someone I took care of. In order to save myself, I had to exit the marriage.

      Now I’m divorced, which obviously still means I’m taking care of all the household chores on my own. But it’s a lot easier without the emotional stress and strain of feeling abandoned by my husband and not being able to do anything about it.

  20. Yom Kippur isn't today

    As the holiday doesn’t start until sundown tonight, there’s no fasting today. And likely, anyone observant enough to fast won’t be at work while they are doing it.

    • Wildkitten

      I think people wanted something to say today to acknowledge the major holiday that is tonight/tomorrow.

      • Anonymous

        Right, she presumably won’t see her co-worker tomorrow so she wants to say something today.

      • YK isn't today

        I get that, but Kat’s message in her post is “Psst: If you’re fasting today, we wish you an easy fast!” that’s what the comment referred to, not the later questions in the comments.

        • rosie

          Totally missed that it the post. Although it could be for another religion’s fast day (turning to google, looks like it’s not implausible).

    • Anonymous

      Thank you for this information. The attorneys I work with have mostly taken a half day today. Is that in preparation for this evening’s observance? Is there a meal prior to sundown? For the first time, I’m working with people who observe Jewish holidays. I’ve googled Yom Kippur to get a better sense of it, but in trying to be aware of and respectful to other people’s traditions and beliefs I find there’s a lot I don’t know!

      • Nati

        You are amazing. This is so thoughtful that no one is going to get snickety about the small details that you might miss.

      • MargaretO

        Seconded that you are being amazing! Most people do eat a big meal before the holiday starts, and if someone is observant they also need to be home and prepared once the sun goes down since they won’t be able to drive/shower/cook/use electricity for the next 24 hours.

          • MargaretO

            Jews who follow religious laws very strictly don’t shower on any holiday, including the sabbath (it’s considered “work” under religious law, which you aren’t allowed to do on holidays – same for using electricity, driving, etc.). A lot of Jews who don’t follow this rule for a regular holiday will still observe it on yom kippur because it is such a major day in the religion. Because of all of these rules it can take a few solid hours to prepare for a holiday, some very religious people might even leave work a little early on Fridays in the winter to give themselves some extra time before the sun goes down on Friday night.

      • Anonymous

        I took a full day off today to prepare, because we still haven’t done tashlich yet (in our family, we often delay until right before Yom Kippur) and we need time to drive to our preferred synagogue before Kol Nidre service. I also can’t trust my workplace to let me out on time, even with a half-day. If I’m in my office, I’m signaling that I’m available to take on any last-minute disasters, and that they will be dealt with before I leave. So, this year I’m just not in today. My coworkers aren’t trying to be oblivious, but we’re really understaffed, and there isn’t almost any awareness of the holidays other than what’s come about from my stating that I’d be out. Each year I have to explain that I *can’t* work on Yom Kippur, even in an emergency, even a little bit.

        I’m hoping to be in a new job next year where I’m closer to synagogue and can trust my employer enough to respect my religious traditions such that I can actually take a half day and still finish tashlich and get to Kol Nidre service on time. I find it really heartening to read that you are asking these questions and taking your coworkers’ religions seriously – it gives me hope that I can find a better workplace.

        • Anonymous

          Thank you for this thoughtful response. You gave me a few more things to google!

          Having grown up in a Protestant household, I can take for granted that people around me know what holidays and traditions my family observed (though I no longer observe any religious holidays, myself). It’s easy to wish a Christian a Merry Christmas and I recognize what happens on Ash Wednesday. Unfortunately, where I live is pretty homogeneous, so when I get to work with and interact with people who have different backgrounds, beliefs, customs and traditions, I really want to be aware of those differences, and if appropriate, acknowledge them. Not to make it an “me versus them” thing but because I really want to celebrate the different perspectives, rather than water it all down by pretending it doesn’t exist.

  21. Friend Drama

    Just need a quick outside reality check here. Friend A is a long term close friend. Friend B is a newer close friend. Friend A and B only know each other through me. Friend A was in a very emotionally abusive relationship. Unbeknownst to me, he made Friend B the gold standard in fights with Friend A. He said things like I wish you were more like B, B is my ideal woman, when we break up I’m going to date B. Why she put up with any of this is just part of the whole cycle of abuse stuff. I learned about it after they broke up and abusive x started contacting Friend B at work. They work in fields where there is some overlap and professional reasons to talk but he was calling her at work just to ask her out. She declined. Then abusive X and A get back together. Then break up again. Abusive X plans a business trip to the same location B’s conference is at. More drama ensues. A and abusive X are finally done. I feel awful that B got dragged into this Jerry Springer show. She’s rightfully afraid of A’s abusive X but harbors no ill will towards A because she knows it is not at all A’s fault and A is a victim here.

    A, however, irrationally (to me) hates B now. B did nothing but reject abusive ex and try to steer clear of him. If I’m having something at my house and invite A and B, A won’t come. There was a milestone event recently they were both at and B tried to say hi to A and A was very curt and then walked away.

    I get that abusive is complex. I’m not going to try to force the issue with A. But I’m also not going to cut B out of our life over this. (I’ve cut someone else out of my life before because of how badly he treated A.) My plan is to continue inviting them both to things. Letting her know when B has declined to attend something. Doing some stuff solo with A where she knows B won’t be there.

    I think she’s embarrassed that B got dragged into this. That if she broke up with abusive ex the first time he abused her then B never would have been part of this at all. I also think that abusive ex planned to divide our friend group and alienate her from her support network. Part of me wants to push A to realize this has nothing to do with B and get her to move forward as an FU to ex. I don’t expect A and B to hang out one on one (which I was hoping would happen before abusive ex got involved) but I do want to see A get to a place she can hang out socially with B without being obviously weird about the whole thing. But, I think it’s better if I don’t address it and just let it happen naturally over time. I hate that she is going to self select out of things B is at (ex wins) but I also can’t cut B out over this.

    • Friend Drama

      TL/DR – A dated abusive ex. Abusive ex taunted A about B’s perfectness and tried to date B. B rejected A’s abusive ex. A and abusive ex still broke up. A now hates B.

    • Wildkitten

      I think the reaction of A (traumatized, not wanting to spend her free fun time being reminded of her trauma) is legitimate and your reaction (to not want to stop being friends with B juste because X was terrible) is legitimate. I would hang out with them separately and be mindful to limit discussion about each other with the other one.

      • Anonymous

        +1 to WK. And let time take its course.

        One of my best friends today is the woman my college BF cheated on me with. She didn’t know we were together (this was pre-Facebook and she lived in another town) and I guess I’was just as guilty of being “the other woman” since she thought they were together!

        With time A may appreciate the insight B has into how truly awful ex is, but for now, let A process it on her own terms and continue to be a great friend to both A and B!

      • anon associate

        This. I can absolutely see how the presence of B makes A feel horrible, even though it isn’t B’s fault. I wouldn’t want to be around someone who reminded me of very painful feelings of unworthiness and insecurity, no matter how irrational. With time, those feelings will probably dissipate as A heals from this.

        Sounds like you’re handling it as best you can.

      • anonymous

        I have been in an analogous situation. Just the idea of that person enraged me for a long time. Now, I don’t really care, and I definitely wouldn’t mind being that person’s friend. I’m sure it doesn’t work that way for everyone, but time does heal.

    • Anonymous

      I’d keep doing what you are doing. A can hate B all she wants. Having a scapegoat is easier. Not B’s fault. I’d make some effort to hang out with A one on one but carry on inviting both to parties.

  22. I just contacted Nordstrom

    …with a request to cease carrying Ivanka Trump’s brand.

    I feel…terrific, actually. Sexual assault is not locker room talk. And even if nothing happens, it feels right that I said something.

    • Anonymous

      Good for you! You’ve inspired me to do the same. If Billy Bush can get fired for his role in all this, I’m not sure why major departments stores can’t dump the Trump brands.

      • Bonnie

        Though I think he got fired not for being involved in the conversation but for not telling his boss about the awesome video that he knew of.

        • fasd

          Though I think he got fired not for being involved in the conversation but for not telling his boss about the awesome video that he knew of.

    • Anonymous

      Great idea! Just messaged them on Facebook with the same request. Asked that if they don’t stop carrying the line to at least structure the website so her products are not suggested when browsing other ideas. I want to shop not think about Trump grossness.

        • Wildkitten

          I wouldn’t push an abuse victim to deal with trauma before she’s ready, unless the end goal here is to convince A to not be your friend anymore, thereby getting out of the sticky wicket of being friends with both of them.

    • Brunette Elle Woods

      Before Trump started campaigning, I admired Ivanka and considered buying her clothes and accessories. Now I will avoid anything with the Trump name. I hope their businesses suffer and they are no longer in the public eye after Hillary is elected.

      • Anonymous

        Same. I can’t imagine their businesses won’t suffer. I suspect a lot of their base will turn on them when they lose, and much of their base is comprised of people who aren’t really in a financial position to be buying Ivanka’s shoes or staying in Trump’s hotels anyway.

    • Wow

      I was just thinking about doing this this morning! Thanks for the reminder, I did the same.

    • October

      I’m as disgusted by Trump as the next person, but isn’t this a bit like blaming Hillary for Bill’s indiscretions (and gross sexual conduct)? What about contacting Macy’s and asking them to pull DJT’s brands?

      • Anonymous

        Agree but I think most people thought of the Ivanka stuff because they are familiar with her products. I didn’t even know DJT had a line at Macy’s until you mentioned it. I vaguely remember something about him having ties made in China but I didn’t realize he had an active clothing business vs. a previous/bankrupt one.

        • October

          True and that makes sense. I actually bought some Trump cuff links back at Macy’s many moons ago, which is how I know (though I can’t totally confirm it’s still in business)…DH no longer wears them.

      • October

        To clarify… blaming Hillary for SUPPORTING her husband after his indiscretions came to light and speaking out against the victims, as Ivanka is continuing to support her father….

        • Anonymous

          I think there’s a distinction to be drawn, but it’s up to other to decide whether that distinction is meaningful.

          Hillary supported her husband in the aftermath of his extramarital affair(s) and various sexual indiscretions. Given the information available to Hillary at the time she made that decision, she chose to support Bill. We don’t know what she knew, we don’t know what details were revealed to her, whether Bill lied to her. What we do know is that she was also a victim of Bill’s behavior. If Hillary had the benefit of our hindsight at the time she had to make that decision, who knows what she would have decided.

          Ivanka, with all of the information available to her, is supporting her father’s advocacy of harm to others. She has all the information she needs to make a fully informed decision. She has enough information to know his behavior is objectionably reprehensible, demeaning to women, hateful toward minorities and immigrants. She just doesn’t care. And that’s fine, she doesn’t have to care. But I don’t want to support anyone who stands behind those beliefs.

          • Beans

            She’s also apparently the architect behind his ridiculous “maternity” plan, which only applies to married, heterosexual, non-adopting women.

      • OP here....

        I don’t shop at Macy’s, so contacting them wasn’t a priority.

        What pushed me to do this was Ivanka’s commercial, where she said, “The most important job a woman can have is being a mother.” This implies that my job–for which I dress myself mostly with things bought at Nordstrom–isn’t important, and by extension, Nordstrom does not value me as a customer.

        This was all further supported by her statement that her father wasn’t “a groper” and, well, we know how that turned out.

        Trump was boasting of sexual assault, and the Trump name is a brand that extends over Ivanka’s clothing and accessories line.

        I see a difference, but I don’t know if I can explain it better.

        • OP again...

          I can support HRC because she is qualified in her own right for everything she has done and is doing.

          Ivanka does not stand alone–her brand and her businesses are firmly under the Trump umbrella. That umbrella, shall we say, is now full of holes.

      • rosie

        I definitely think there’s a DJT component to it, but Ivanka is not exactly a champion of women’s rights herself, so there’s that, too.

      • KS IT Chick

        I haven’t ever purchased anything from the Ivanka line, because she’s been an active part of her father’s businesses as an adult. She was a part of The Apprentice, and she has held a long-term high level position in his company. She has been a party to his racism (“Show me the birth certificate!”) for years.

        Her enabling & defending his bad behavior isn’t new. What is new is that she is being called out for doing so.

        • Anon

          His behavior is also influential on a national level, though. That was less true before.

  24. Cat

    I’m not a Game of Thrones person, so question… my brother asked for the ‘Game of Thrones books’ for his birthday. This sounded easy enough, but I see some dueling sets on Amazon. What do you think he means? The five-volume Song of Ice and Fire series? Something else?

    • KMO

      Yes, the five-book set is what I would interpret. There is at least one other “companion” book, but it’s not a core part of the series.

    • Mindy

      the 5 volume. that’s correct. My mom got it for me to read post-bar exam and it was glorious.

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